223: Becoming Happier at Work with Dr. Annie McKee

Pete Mockaitis
Annie, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Annie McKee
Thanks, Pete. I’m really happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, as we’re chatting, I’m looking at your Skype image which is of an elephant, and I understand you had a recent excursion to Africa. What’s the story there?

Annie McKee
Oh, it’s such a good time. We were there in August. And a little background, my husband is from Zambia which is in southern Africa, so we were visiting family, we were in Lusaka, in the capital, we went to the village where our family members lived very, very simply, no electricity, no running water, that sort of thing. And then, of course, we went up north and went out into the game reserve which is, I swear, it’s the size of Rhode Island. It’s huge and the animals are just so beautiful. It’s my favorite place in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that sounds beautiful. Very cool. Well, I also want to hear about sort of your interior journeys, boy, that was an awkward segue but we’re running with it, in terms of when it comes to your writing and your areas of interests. So you’ve written all sorts of things with Harvard Business Review and collaborating with folks like Daniel Goldman, a lot of great stuff. So tell us what caused you to say How to be Happy at Work is a book that needs to exist in the world?

Annie McKee
That’s such a good question. I’ve spent most of the last 20 years or so working with leaders and organizations around the world, including in Africa, by the way, and here in Europe and you name it. And most of the time I was working on issues of leadership development culture, that kind of thing, and recently I realized that no matter where I was, no matter whether we were in southern Africa or France or Germany or the U.S. or Thailand people were telling us the same things.

They were telling us, “Hey, my leader is okay. My manager is alright. Or maybe he’s not. The culture is okay or maybe it’s not. But what I know for sure,” they would say to us, “is that I need to be happy at work. I need to feel fulfilled. And if I am, I am more effective.” So I really started digging into that and did a bunch of research myself and read everything I could and found that there really is a case for happiness in the workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Now you say a case for it, I mean, I guess I’m already convinced that it’d be nice to be happy at work. So what do you mean by the case?

Annie McKee
You know, it could go a couple of ways, Pete. Number one, I firmly believe that we deserve to be happy. In the kind of jobs we have today, the kind of professions we have, flat or lean organizations and all of that, a lot of us work all the time. We work at least a third of our waking lives as adults and so why would we condemn ourselves to misery for that much of our lives? I don’t get it. I think it’s flat out wrong and happiness is a human right, and if we’re not happy at work we’re not going to be happy anywhere else. And it leaks. It leaks into our families, our communities, so that’s one.

There’s also a business case, and Shawn Achor has done some wonderful work linking happiness with individual success. And his research shows that, in fact, when we are happier we are more successful individually and collectively as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely, yes. And that’s in his book The Happiness Advantage which is a real page-turner. I loved it. And you’ve discovered some additional pieces when it comes to the cause. Is that true? Or what are some of the most compelling pieces that make that link story come to life for you?

Annie McKee
You know, I think there are a couple other things, Pete. The research that I did dug down into what it means to be happy at work. Do we just feel good all the time? Well, that’s not it really. Is it about just experiencing pleasure all the time? No, that’s not what people are telling us either. What I found was that when people said, “I want to be happy at work, and if I am I know I’m more effective,” what they meant was they needed to feel a sense of fulfillment and purpose, they needed to feel that their values were alive and well in the workplace and they could act on them, that they could have impact, that the future looked bright, and that their relationships were friendly and, frankly, great.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, yeah. That sounds like a good sort of lineup there. So, then, I guess I’m curious, so if that’s what happy looks like, and the ideals we’re shooting for, what are some of the holdups or the myths or the things that make that often not the case for people?

Annie McKee
Yeah, it’s more often, than not, frankly, that people are at least disengaged and, in my experience, even actively unhappy in the workplace. And we can attribute that to a whole lot of things – organizational pressures, the pressures of the age we’re living in, we bring that to work, bad managers, all sorts of things. But Gallup has been reporting for years that 60 some percent of us are either actively disengaged or neutral in the workplace, and that’s just not good enough.

So if we kind of peel that back and say, “Well, is it just because of the conditions of work?” And my answer to that is no. It’s not just our working conditions, it’s not just the pressure and the stress, although they contribute to it for sure. What unhappiness also is associated with is our own myths and beliefs about the meaning of work. In particular, Pete, I think we bought into this age-old belief that work is supposed to be horrible, it’s supposed to be grueling, right? We’re not supposed to be happy at work, that’s for the rest of our lives.

And for all the reasons I said just a few minutes ago, we work all the time. We walk around with work in our pocket. We’ve got find a path to happiness and it starts with letting go of that myth. Work does not have to be gruesome or grueling. It can be fun, it can be fulfilling and we can make it happen.

Pete Mockaitis
Now that’s interesting and I don’t know where I heard this from, but it said, “Well, that’s why it’s called work,” or something. Just sort of like kind of open and shut matter of fact, you know, take on that. And so I think I’m already sort of sold on that, but in case there’s someone who’s not, if they’d say, “Work needs to be gruesome and/or grueling in order to make you tough and strong and sharp and growing. You have to have sort of the ‘that which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger’ mentality, and work needs to have these kinds of tough challenges to be worth anything.” What’s your response to that kind of collection of ideas and ethos around work?

Annie McKee
Boy, I’ve heard them all. I’ve heard every single one of them, and I may have even said those things to myself a time or two in my life long, long ago. Here’s the thing, however, how we feel impacts how we think. How we feel impacts our brain functioning, and the combination of those two helps to determine the actions we take.

So what this means is our feelings, touch our cognition, our thinking, our ability to take in information, our ability to make decision, and it altogether added all up, our feeling and our thoughts drive action. So if we want to be successful in the workplace we’ve got to pay attention to emotion, our own emotion as well as the other, of the emotions of the people around us. We really need to pay attention to this if we want to be successful.

And all that macho talk you just sort of rap off a couple of minutes ago, that, “Hey, work is supposed to be tough, and this’ll make a man or a woman out of you. Just be quiet and be glad you’ve got a job,” all of that stuff really drives us to the point of being resentful and cynical and unhappy in the workplace. And that’s when our brains don’t work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Fair enough. So that worldview or belief set can lead down a path towards cynicism and resentment which just shuts down all kinds of important functions of our brain in terms of creativity and making a real value-added stuff happen with your mind at work. So, well then, I’d love to zoom in in terms of the real-life practical daily realities that professionals experience every day. What are some key things folks could do to boost their happiness at work?

Annie McKee
Right. I talked a minute ago about the myth that work has to be grueling, and we need to let go of that myth, number one. And then we need to stop pointing outward and waiting for somebody else to make us happy. Our boss might make our workplace a better experience. We may have a couple of great leaders around us and a couple of great colleagues, but those things will not make us happy.

Happiness comes from the inside. And one of the things that I’ve noticed is that we often get in our own way. We get trapped by mindsets, beliefs, and even approaches to our work that really don’t help us. I call them happiness traps actually. For example, overwork. We work too much many of us, and it is impossible to be happy over the long term if we are constantly working and not taking care of our physical health, our relational wellbeing and our emotional and mental health. It’s impossible.

So we got to get rid of this myth that you have to work all the time, and really put some boundaries up around us. Or the “should” happiness trap. This is an interesting one. A lot of people choose jobs and careers because they think they should rather than because they really are called to join a profession or do a certain job. And once you get stuck like that it’s really hard to get out.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy, there’s so much good stuff there I want to really rip into a bit here. So, first about the “shoulds.” You know, when I was a kid, Tony Robbins was my hero when I was a teenager. Fun fact, I was a weird teenager. But I remember one of my favorite things he’d said was that you can should all over yourself. And my mom would always bring me over when he was on QVC, “Oh, he’s about to say your favorite thing, Pete.” It’s so funny.

I mean, point well taken, in terms of “shoulds” can leave you in a real mess of a place if you’re kind of heeding them. And so could you give us some examples of what are some of the top “shoulds” that folks are heeding that they ought not to or things that sort of exert an undue influence in folks’ work role decision-making?

Annie McKee
Yeah, I will talk about a few of those, Pete. One of the things that I see in organizations all over the world is that people often feel that they have to dress, act, and be a certain way, and that definition of what you’re supposed to look like and act like is often very, very narrow and stepping outside of those boundaries is seen to be some kind of a sin in organizations.

You know, I was working with an organization once and if somebody showed up to that organization with scuffed shoes for an interview, they would not get the job. It’s crazy, right? Does scuffed shoes have anything at all to do whether somebody can actually manage and lead? No, they don’t. It makes no difference whatsoever.

So it’s kind of an extreme example but there have been studies done that show that most of us cover a great deal of who we are in the workplace because we think we have to and we think we should show up a certain way with the game face on. And the psychological distress that is caused when we deny who we are, when we try to hide our personality, even hide our gender, our race, or other aspects of ourselves which is impossible, of course, it’s really, really tough on people, and over time it can cause a lot of distress and even anxiety and depression.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so that’s interesting. So you’re talking about “shoulds” like sort of right there in the course of the day-to-day experience in life. And I guess I was first thinking about “shoulds” in terms of accepting the job in the first place, you know, when you said with regard to calling. And so do you have some answers or “shoulds” that happen in that realm as well?

Annie McKee
I do. I absolutely do. These “shoulds” operate on a lot of different levels. And, by the way, they’re not all bad, right? You’re not going to show up to work in a bathing suit unless you work in a pool, right? So they’re not all bad. But I was talking with a friend just last week, and she happens to teach in a university and she was telling me that she’d been talking to some of her seniors just recently, and these seniors had already decided to take certain jobs at the end of this year when they graduate in May.

They had interned at wherever it was over the summer and they were going to take these jobs that are now being offered. And two persons, she told me, these young people were taking jobs they knew already that they did not like.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow.

Annie McKee
Yeah, right? That’s so scary because they thought they should take the job at the consulting firm, or the firm with the big name, or whatever. They wanted to please their parents, they wanted that investment in college to be worth it, whatever the reason was for them. And they would say things to my friend, like, “Well, I’ll just do it for a couple of years and then I’ll do something different.”

But, honestly, Pete, I’ve met those same people, fast forward a couple of decades, and they’re in their 40s, and they’re still stuck because they set themselves on a path and decided not to pay attention to what called them to work, what really made them feel passionate about what they do, and instead took a job. And that translates into a whole lot of other traps. You get in the job, then maybe you’ve got a slightly more expensive apartment, and then a few years down the line, right, you’ve got the whole shebang.

Pete Mockaitis
You know that really brings me back because I did work in management consulting. I was in Bain & Company and I remember we had the offeree weekend, don’t call it sell weekend although that’s what we called it informally because in terms of, “Hey, everybody who got an offer we’re going to try to show them how amazing it is to work for Bain.”

And so I remember someone really opened up, you know, late at night in a cab after some beverages and how she had had offers from Bain as well as McKinsey & Company, so two great firms, great names, prestige, opportunities, doors open, all that stuff. And I remember she said, “Oh, I feel like I’m choosing between McKinsey – and all of its name brand, name, prestige, whatever – and happiness with Bain.”

And I was just like, “Well, first of all, whatever prestige rankings you’re looking at puts them pretty darn close to each other so that isn’t going to make sense to me.” But I think, yes, it was her parents and other forces that be put it in her head that McKinsey & Company is like sort of the ultimate and elite and prestige.

Annie McKee
Exactly. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Even though she did not want to be there, and so she ended up choosing that firm. It blew my mind.

Annie McKee
Yeah, I know, I’ve seen it time and again, and I see people who are further along in their careers do the same thing. They take that promotion when, in fact, they are actually really happy doing what they’re doing right now. They pursue a particular area of expertise when they’re not interested in it because they think it’ll get them ahead and they think they should do it.

And, mind you, I’m not knocking getting ahead or knocking making more money or promotions or anything, I think that’s all really important. It’s the reasons why we do it that we have to pay attention to. So, if we’re trying to get a promotion just for the sake of getting a promotion because we think we should, or if we’re following a career path because we think we should, we will ultimately be unfulfilled at the very least and most likely pretty darn unhappy.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, well-said, and now I want to dig more into what you had to say about the overwork. And so, yeah, I love your strong position there. It’s like it is impossible over the long term to experience happiness with a lot of overwork happening month after month or year after year. And so, tell me, what defines overwork? Is there a number of hours? Or is there a certain threshold? Or how do we say, “Hmm, this is clearly in the unsustainable unhappy zone when it comes to overwork”?

Annie McKee
You know I’ve never seen a study that tells us exactly how many hours is too many hours to work, but from my own experience and my own work with executives I can tell you that if we find ourselves working during the workday as we do, and then in evenings, and then early morning before we go into the office, and then on Saturdays, and then we skip that vacation, we’re in the zone. We’re in the overwork zone.

And it happens for a lot of reasons. Our organizations, many of them are flat and lean. We are working more than we have ever before in many countries around the world, and we’re asked to do more with less. It’s a cliché but it’s true. So that pressure is very real. There’s another one, and Arianna Huffington said it really well, she said, “We got a snake in civilization’s Garden of Eden.”

And what she meant by that were the digital devices that we literally carry around with us. We got our work in our pockets or on our bedside table, and it’s so easy to just sort of look away from your loved one in the evening, or your child is trying to tell you a story about school and kind of glanced down to see if somebody has emailed you or somebody is texting you about a project. It’s really easy to get suck into that trap. And, honestly, Pete, I’ve done it myself. And guess what? It’s even easier if you love what you do. So, yeah, right?

So, the point is not how many hours but are we finding a way to live holistically. And, you know, I don’t use that word balance, work-life balance. I think that’s a myth because that sort of brings to mind a kind of a pie chart that you can cut a certain way and everything is going to be fine, right? I really don’t think that that is realistic or even possible. But we can understand ourselves well enough to know what’s important to us, what we care about, and make sure we reserve time and energy to do those things, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. And I’d love to get your take, so we talked about some of the “shoulds” impacting whether or not you take on a role, and then some of the things you should bear in mind right here right now in your current role. What might be some telltale signs that happiness is going to be ever elusive in your current role and you may be well-advised to look elsewhere?

Because, in some ways, I think that there’s that – maybe part of it is the macho thing, but I think there’s something to be said for persistence, and sticking it out, and going through a challenging time here or there, and then adapting and revising yourself and your approaches so that things can work for you, but sometimes things are beyond repair. So how do you sort of discern where you are and if it’s time to go?

Annie McKee
That’s a great question, Pete. I agree with you that running away shouldn’t be necessarily your first option if you’re feeling dissatisfied or unhappy in the workplace. Your first choice really is to take a good hard look in what you are doing to yourself that’s maybe contributing to that and can you change something about yourself and the way you’re working or approaching work that will make things better.

Persistence is great and trying hard is great. We do learn through challenges and struggle sometimes, of course, and we look back on it and say, “I’m glad that happened to me.” But if you’re noticing a few things about yourself sort of persistently over time that are making you really uneasy. For example, you know you used to be a glass half-full kind of person, you were an optimistic, always look for the bright side, and any more all you want to do is hang out with the naysayers and join the chorus. You’ve become a true pessimist and you just can’t see any good in the world anymore, and you know that’s not you. Now that’s a really good indication that something has gone wrong with you.

Number two, relationships. You, maybe in the past, you’ve been pretty good. You’ve been a good manager, you use your emotional intelligence, you guide people, you inspire people, and now you’re short-tempered and you’re pointing fingers and really not a very nice person to be around. Wow, that’s an indication that something has gone wrong, too.

And, by the way, when that happens at work, it’s usually already happened at home. So, you want to look at early on when you start becoming short-tempered, irritable and not really having any patience for anybody at home and becoming that bear when you walk through the door. You want to ask yourself, “What’s going on? Is there something wrong? Or is this just I’ve gone too far down the path of discontent and unhappiness at work and it’s starting to play out at home?” So those are two really good signs.

And then, honestly, physical health. A lot of us when we are unhappy don’t take very good care of ourselves. We stop doing things we love like exercising. We either gain a lot of weight or lose a lot of weight, either one is not very good for us. Maybe have that second or third cocktail at night instead of staying with the one or two that’s kind of okay, right? And you want to really look at what’s going on physically as well. It’s often a sign that something is wrong.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Excellent. Well, Annie, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Annie McKee
Pete, I would just like to say that happiness truly is a human right and there’s a lot we can do to make ourselves happier in the workplace. Happiness is something that we can all find. And, no, we’re never going to be happy every minute of every day, that’s not the goal. The goal is to feel a deep and abiding sense of purpose in our work, to feel that our future is tied to what we’re doing right now and a very personally compelling vision of the future is close to our hearts, and that we’re friends with at least a few people at work and we feel like we can hang out with them and really enjoy them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Excellent. Thank you. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Annie McKee
My favorite quote, oldie but goodie, “Be the change you want to see in the world.” Gandhi.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Annie McKee
I think I’d have to say two things. I think Shawn Achor’s work on happiness and success is excellent, number one. And I think that tens and thousands of studies that have been done on relationships in the workplace and emotional intelligence that are happening all over the world, and I think that’s really adding to our understanding of what it means to be a good leader and create a resonant microculture around us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. How about a favorite book?

Annie McKee
Favorite book, Daphne du Maurier, Rebecca.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, tell us a little more.

Annie McKee
I love to read fiction. I read non-fiction too every day of my life because I love to learn, and every single day of my life I read fiction. I read so many of them that I often forget the titles which is terrible because I’m an author myself. But it just happens to be a really beautiful story by a really talented author from a long time ago.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. How about a favorite tool?

Annie McKee
Hammer.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. What are you hammering these days?

Annie McKee
Anything I can get my hands on. I like building things.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s great. We’re doing home renovations right now, so it is exciting and it is challenging. I’ve retreated to an echo-y room which hopefully isn’t showing up on the audio.

Annie McKee
Ouch. We do that.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit?

Annie McKee
Deep breathing. Mindfulness.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And when you say mindfulness, what are some of the mindfulness practices?

Annie McKee
For me it’s really simple. It’s deep breathing and trying to calm down, trying to empty my mind. Personally, like to be out in nature and it really helps me keep stress at bay.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a particular nugget that you share that seems to really connect and resonate with folks? They re-tweet it, they Kindle book highlight it, they come up to you and say, “I was so blown away when you said this.”

Annie McKee
Yeah, people seem to respond really well, when they ask me, “What can I do today to be happier at work?” I tell them, “Go make a friend. Just go find a buddy and build that friendship so you got somebody that you care about and who returns the favor, and see if you can spend more time together in the workplace.”

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch where would you point them?

Annie McKee
AnnieMcKee.com, and you’ll see all my social media there, and a lot of free articles to read, and various things that I’ve been publishing, some things that others or my friends are writing that are really great. So, there are a lot of resources there for all of our listeners

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Annie McKee
I have two. Be curious about people. And then be kind.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Annie, thank you so much for taking this time here and sharing this wisdom and expertise. I think it’s so important and so appreciated, so thank you and good luck in doing all you’re doing.

Annie McKee
Thank you, Pete. I really enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much.