Presence Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Shira, welcome.

Shira Miller
Hi, Pete. Glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m glad to be chatting with you. We’re talking apologies, and I’m excited to dig deep into this notion of apology speak. Could you kick us off by sharing your own apology story?

Shira Miller
Oh, boy, do I have one. I spent the first 40 years of my life in a constant state of apology. I’m talking about apologizing when I won speaking trophies, and for when I would win awards at work, and the men in my life maybe weren’t so excited about that. And the most significant apology story I have to share took place back in 2009.

I used to have a public relations firm, and from the outside it looked like we were doing so well. We were in a fancy office tower, I had big-name clients, we’ve won a lot of awards. And then, I remember, in May 2009, we had about four pieces of business out for bid, and none of them came back, and that was highly unusual.

What I didn’t realize at the time was that the Great Recession was coming through the country and that it was about to demolish my business along with 200,000 others across the country. So, I was caught unawares, I had $100,000 worth of business debt, I had to let go of wonderful employees, and I spent my time constantly apologizing.

I honestly knocked myself out for the next four years to take care of all the work, to get rid of the debt. I did it all by myself. I ran my health into the ground. And then, at the end, when I should’ve been celebrating because I survived, what did I do, Pete? I apologized. That’s what I did.

Pete Mockaitis
To whom?

Shira Miller
To the world. I kept telling people, “Gosh, I feel stupid. I can’t believe that I got myself in this situation.” Instead of standing proud to think, “I got through one of the biggest challenges of my life,” I put myself down, self-deprecating language, constantly said I was sorry to anyone that would listen.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, Shira, what’s the harm or problem in saying we’re sorry often? Isn’t that kind of a polite, friendly thing to do?

Shira Miller
You know, you would think that it is on the surface, and sometimes that is people’s intention with it, but when you apologize for no reason, you are telling the rest of the world, subconsciously, that you don’t matter. You are trying to maybe diffuse a tense situation, perhaps you don’t want to shine brightly and you dim your own light to make other people feel better about themselves, but it’s saying to the world and yourself that you are coming in second, and that your opinion and your ideas don’t matter.

And when it comes to work, if there are two people up for the same promotion, who do you think is going to get it? The woman who stands in front of a room and says, “I’m sorry” as the first words out of her mouth, or the person, the woman who stands there confidently, owning her accomplishments?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, maybe we can disentangle or distinguish a little bit what’s up. Because I imagine, from your perspective, and you tell me if that’s the case, it would be appropriate to apologize when we have genuinely injured another, made a mistake, failed to deliver on a promise or an expectation. These seem like fine times to apologize.

Shira Miller
Absolutely. The whole premise here is that when you’ve done something wrong, all of the examples you gave, if you’re thinking about the workplace, if you missed a deadline, you took credit for someone else’s ideas, you cast a shade on somebody else, you need to own that. That is worthy of an apology, and issue one.

But in those circumstances, when you’re using apology speak, which is my name for starting a sentence with “I’m sorry,” when you’ve done nothing wrong, or self-deprecating phrases, like, “In my humble opinion,” when you start out by saying that, or, “I’m not an expert but…” you’re literally telling the room, “Okay, I don’t know as much,” or, “My great ideas, they don’t matter.”

Pete Mockaitis
So, could you share with us perhaps any data, evidence, research, science studies that speak to, really, the big stakes impact, consequentiality, if that’s a word, of this stuff?

Shira Miller
So, if you dig into the why of why we’re doing it, I know your audience is primarily female so I’m going to go with that example, the University of Waterloo did a study, and they found that women apologize more than men. And to that I say, “Duh!” I mean, we all know this but Mila Jovanovic, who is a sociologist in Canada, she digs deeper into the theory of why we’re doing it.

And her theory is that women are socialized into being people-pleasers from a young age, and the apology speak is part of it, when we’re taught to say “I’m sorry” to go along or get along, or diffuse a tense situation. But if you dig deeper into the research, a lot of it stems from impostor syndrome. KPMG came out with a study a couple of years ago that found that 75% of female executives felt impostor syndrome.

And, as you know, that is a behavioral phenomenon where you might have tremendous accomplishments but you don’t feel good enough. You feel like you don’t deserve that seat at the table even if you spent the past 5, 10, 15 years working for it. And that can really undermine your confidence.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, over-apologizing, in some way, sounds as though it’s a bit of an indicator or a symptom of some underlying stuff, which might be low self-esteem, or a tendency to people-please, or put others’ thoughts, opinions, priorities, needs above your own habitually. And so, that’s kind of what I’m hearing. But, in addition to the indicator, it sounds like you’re saying that the actual act of over-apologizing does us harm.

Shira Miller
It is a form of self-sabotage. It hurts your career. It hurts your credibility. It hurts you at home as well. It’s hard to have really rich conversations about difficult topics with the people you’ve got relationships with if you’re feeling overwhelmed and you just start saying, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry,” to shut down a hard topic. You’re not really digging into what’s going on, and that hurts you professionally and personally.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, could you dig into that example a little bit more? There’s a conversation going on, and you say, “I’m sorry,” and bow out.

Shira Miller
Yes. Let’s say that you’re having an argument with your significant other. Maybe it’s about finances, about latest credit card spending, and when you are asked the question, “Why did you spend all of that money?” instead of thinking, “Okay, let’s talk. What’s going on? Is it a budget issue that I need to talk about with my significant other? Is there a problem? I’m earning my own money,” instead you just raise your hands in the air and you deflect it, and go, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Please forgive me.”

But you’re not actually dealing into, “Are you dealing with a control freak? Are you dealing with a spending problem you’ve got? Is it a lack of communication about your budget parameters?” You’re not going into the real stuff that helps us have good relationships at home as well as at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s one form of apologizing. It’s almost like we’ve got a taxonomy of apologies here…

Shira Miller
We do.

Pete Mockaitis
…is the avoidance apology, “I’m sorry.” Can you share with us some other flavors or categories and how they’re harmful?

Shira Miller
When you start apologizing for things that are out of your control. For example, “I’m sorry it’s raining,” “I’m sorry traffic is bad.” Unless you’re Mother Nature, you’re not controlling those factors. And when that’s the first thing out of your mouth, rather than acknowledging the person or what the subject is that you’re going to be meeting about, it takes away the focus of your interaction or the time.

Another work example is when you say, “I’m sorry to bother you,” because when you’re using that language, you are immediately setting up your conversation as an imposition. You’re saying that their time matters more than yours, whereas, you can shift the language to, instead, say, “Do you have a moment to talk about an important issue?” or, “Can I get your perspective on this project?” Those are words of ownership, and you deserve to have their time because it’s going to make everybody work smarter and better.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So, in a raining environment, I’m imagining of an event coordinator. We’re having a lovely picnic in the park event, and it’s raining, and that’s genuinely disappointing for all of us who imagined a different kind of a scenario.

So, it’s intriguing because in that context, if you’re the event planner of this, you are disappointed that things have not gone the way you had hoped, and you recognize that they, too, in the crowd, are disappointed. It has not gone your way.

But to apologize for the rain, you’re right, it’s sort of nonsense, as you’ve said, in terms of, like, you did not make it rain. And yet, here we are experiencing some disappointment due to rain. So, what would be a superior linguistic substitution?

Shira Miller
What you can start out with is acknowledging your audience, the people in the group, “Thank you for your patience. We’re dealing with a rain situation but you guys are so resilient that we’re easily going to be able to take everything, move inside, and get on with our meeting, and have the best time yet.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, it’s funny, as we’re talking about when it’s appropriate to apologize and not apologize, I’m sort of imagining the response following the “I’m sorry.” It’s as if the response “I forgive you” is nonsense, then maybe it’s probably not right to apologize in that moment, like, “I’m sorry it’s raining.” “Hey, I forgive you, Shira, for making it rain.” It’s like, “Oh, okay. Point taken. It doesn’t really make sense here.”

And that’s a whole other conversation but in terms of “I forgive you.” It’s funny, with my wife, I like to hear that. She does not like to hear that because it feels like, if I say, “I forgive you,” I’m acknowledging, “Yes, in fact, you have wronged me,” and she would prefer a “No big deal,” or, “That’s okay.” But I like “I forgive you” because I know I screwed up, and to hear that I’ve been released of any debt or burden or obligation or ill will associated with that error feels nice to me.

Shira Miller
And it sounds like you are very clear on your linguistic choices and hers in feeling acknowledged in a conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, it’s funny, now that we’re talking about romance, I recall, one time, I was driving home to visit my mom and dad, and I had my girlfriend at the time in the car. And so, I was driving, and she wanted to text them to let them know how the timing was unfolding. And it was really interesting in the moment because she’s texting on my phone because I’m not texting and driving, and so she’s writing on behalf of me.

And so, she said, “Okay, I’ll text them right now. I’m saying, ‘Oh, sorry, it looks like we’re going to get there in about 4:30.’” And I remember saying, “Hmm, can we delete the sorry?” And she’s like, “What? Why?” And we had a whole conversation. This is, like, the only time I’ve talked in depth about the apology language prior to now.

And I thought, “Well, I don’t think that we’ve actually done anything wrong in terms of we have not communicated a specific timing expectation. We didn’t make any unwise choices and it just feels out of place.” I wasn’t even thinking about harm. It just felt off to me intuitively.

Shira Miller
You’ve got a great intuitive meter because, yeah, when you start with a sorry and you’ve done nothing wrong, there was no established arrival time, then it might set it up for another apology when you show up, where you were bringing your girlfriend home. Your family was probably delighted to meet her, and it was a time for family togetherness and joy. There was no need for an apology.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. Well, tell us, if we do need to interrupt somebody, that’s one time I think of sorrys happening. It seems kind of appropriate to me to apologize for interrupting, even though the thing needs to be communicated immediately. What’s your hot take there?

Shira Miller
I think you can do that in a couple different ways and a lot of it depends on your tone. If someone is starting to go in detail then you know it needs to be corrected or added on. It can be, “Emily, I love your point. And can I please add one more thing to your message?” When you kind of pop in and you make it fun, acknowledging the person who’s speaking, that’s a way to do it.

Or, you could say, “Hey, pardon my interruption for just a second. I got to add something to your message right now,” or, “Here’s my clarifying point.” When you start it that way, as long as you don’t take away from the messages that are being communicated by the person who’s got the floor.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. I’m also thinking that if you’re apologizing frequently, that sends a message, maybe like in a negotiation context, and many contexts are really negotiation contexts under the surface, “I want something. You want something. And so, here we are in conversation.” Kwame Christian is a friend of mine. He hosts the podcast Negotiate Anything, and he’s wonderful. He’s a former guest.

And he said, “A negotiation is conversation which somebody wants something.” And so, I think in that definition, a person who apologizes frequently, I get the impression as a counterparty to that negotiation, and I try not to abuse this. I get the impression that if I’m a little bit more assertive, I’m likely to gain concessions because of their discomfort, because I know I’m a people-pleaser, too.

It’s like, “Oh, this person is kind of like me. So, if I let them know that I have an expectation or I’m a little bit unhappy with the thing,” which I am, honestly, I’m not, like, faking it to game the negotiation, “then I have a higher probability of receiving consideration from them,” as oppose to a stone-cold negotiator, like, “I don’t care if you don’t like it. This is what I can do.”

Shira Miller
Well, what you’re doing is recognizing an opportunity, because when someone starts with an apology speak, they don’t feel solid in their position. There’s some sort of weakness. They don’t feel confident. That’s what it’s saying. Even if they are the most brilliant person in the room, because of their language, they’re not coming across that way. So, when you’re talking about the example of a negotiation, you’re just being a smart negotiator spotting an opportunity that you will leverage to have a better deal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And it’s funny, I was just in a negotiating conversation yesterday, I almost said I’m sorry. She asked, “What’s the price?” I said, “$12,000.00” She said, “Can you do 10?” And I said, “I respect and appreciate you asking but I cannot.”

Shira Miller
Beautiful. You had no sorry in it, right? You just said no.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it was almost there, though. It was close. Cool. Well, so tell us, you’ve got a system, five ways to break the cycle of unnecessary apologies. Lay them on us.

Shira Miller
Well, you are so brilliant. You already started going into this. So, the first step, Pete, is to determine if an apology is necessary, and sometimes it is. If you have actually done something wrong, we went through several examples earlier, issue a genuine apology. And I’m going to give you a non-work example here but it’s just a really public one that we all know of.

If you think about the Academy Awards, when Will Smith slapped Chris Rock, he needed to issue an apology, and he didn’t issue one right away to Chris Rock. He apologized to his family and the world but it took him a while. Now, Chris Rock didn’t accept the apology. That was his prerogative, he didn’t have to. But Smith absolutely had to apologize. He did something wrong.

But when you don’t, when you’ve done nothing wrong, reserve your apologies for when they actually matter. Because if you’re the constantly-saying-you’re-sorry person in your language, it diffuses it when you actually have done something wrong and need to make an apology. So, that is step one.

Step two is to pay attention, and this is a really quick homework assignment for anybody who’s listening that wants to immediately change a situation. Start writing down, it could be a hash mark, it could be the details. Every time you find yourself over the next three or four days making an unnecessary apology.

Like, let’s say that you’re at the grocery store, you’re minding your own business pushing your cart, someone else is playing on their phone, they’re not paying attention, they run into you and your cart, and you look at them, and go, “Oh, hey, I’m sorry.” You didn’t do anything wrong. So, just note all of that and look at the end, three or four days, if you’re trying to be real A student, do it for a week to really find out, and then start tallying it up.

If you’ve done it a couple times, that’s one thing. Maybe it’s in the dozens, this is a real problem. So, start to find the connection points. Is there a common denominator? Is there a director at work who’s really difficult and he prompts that situation whenever you’re in a meeting? Or maybe it’s your mother-in-law. I’m not even trying to go to vaudeville jokes here, but it might be a frenemy.

It could be somebody like that. You find yourself constantly apologizing when you’re with that person, they’re the trigger. And when you understand it by paying attention, you can plan ahead not to apologize and choose other words instead.

Shira Miller
The third step is to reframe your words. So, think about what you’re actually trying to communicate with an apology. Often, the intention is to connect with another person. Maybe you’re trying to express sympathy or empathy. Make the sentiment the focus of your words. So, let’s say you’re running late for a meeting.

Instead of running in the room, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry. I was late,” and constantly talking about it and why and the parking garage was a mess, just focus on “Thank you for your patience. I’m so excited to dig into this presentation today,” and then get into the meeting. You’ve acknowledged the people for their graciousness, and then you move on. So, it’s a point of connection, and reframing your words to actually fit the sentiment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Shira, if I can pause there for a moment.

Shira Miller
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, in that context, it seems like it may very well be appropriate that as a person who is late, you have, indeed, I don’t want to be dramatic, but you have harmed people. You have harmed people by your tardiness, and I mean, it’s not life or death, but, yeah, it is an inconvenience, a distraction of time has unfolded as a result of your tardiness.

And so, “I’m sorry” doesn’t seem out of place to me. Now going on about the parking garage, of course, burns more time, which is so that’s worse than make it snappy. But what’s your take on that one?

Shira Miller
I think that’s a great question, Pete. If you are really late, if you’re 15, 20 minutes late, yeah, you need to apologize. I’m talking if you’re a couple of minutes late – the elevator was slow, the parking garage was a problem. If you’re one or two minutes late, okay. If you do know, though, this is knowing your audience, let’s say that you’re talking to some prospective clients, and time management is really big on their list of priorities, yeah, you do go into that and say, “I’m sorry I was a couple of minutes late. I appreciate your flexibility and your patience. Let’s get right into this.” That’s knowing your audience.

But it’s the dramatic, “Oh, my gosh, I was late, and here’s why. And my kid was sick this morning and traffic was horrible.” People don’t want that verbal vomit with the sorry.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Next step?

Shira Miller
Next step is something I call claiming your accomplishments. And so, think about one thing that you were great at. So, before you start your day each morning, take a minute to think about your one good thing, and how that quality or skill makes you feel.

Does it make you feel happy? Proud? I want you to say it out loud and express your gratitude. Because when you start your day by thinking about your best quality or skill, that helps you unlock your full potential. It helps with the feelings of impostor syndrome, the feeling you’re not good enough, and it strengthens your confidence muscles so that you’re not delving into the state of over-apologizing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Shira Miller
Final step there is to set boundaries, and start from a place of confidence. Think about the good work that you do and the value that you offer. You don’t need to over-prove yourself all of the time. Say no when it’s a project that you simply don’t have time to handle. It’s all in the delivery. If it’s an opportunity that you’re not interested in, when you say no to others, you can say yes to yourself more often. So, setting boundaries will also help you stop over-apologizing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. And can we dig into a little bit of, I suppose, the underlying foundational psychological thing in terms of if we really do view ourselves as less than, inferior, dumb, not worthy of whatever, we’re impostors, do you have any…you mentioned claiming your accomplishments, which is phenomenal. Can we expand upon approaches by which we develop this inner strength and confidence?

Shira Miller
I’ve got two things for you here. So, the first is a lot of the self-doubt comes from your inner saboteur, and that is the internal voice in your head that is talking trash about you to yourself, so it’s negative self-talk. And it might’ve started years ago when you were trying to protect yourself, “Oh, don’t get on that slide. You might get hurt,” when you were a kid, or, “Don’t raise your hand in class. You might sound stupid.” So, it might’ve started young. But when you’re doing it as a conscious adult, it’s holding you back.

So, when you start to hear that critical voice in your head, and part of you knows that it’s completely off base but it’s just an old habit, that’s what a negative self-talk is, just like apology speak, you can actually talk back to the self-talk. You can say, whether it’s an out-loud conversation, as long as there aren’t a lot of people around thinking that you’re going off into a crazy spiral, but you could say, “Thank you but I’m done now. I don’t need that protection. What you’re saying, I’ve outgrown it. It’s actually incorrect.”

You could write yourself a letter. You could journal about it. That is a tool to try to deal with negative self-talk. Another tool that I’ve created is something called a reverse bucket list. And you know the concept of a bucket list, things you want to do, aspirations, before you die, before you kick the bucket. In this case, I ask people to take 10 minutes and write down a list of everything you’ve accomplished, and I want as many things as you can think of.

Did you put yourself through college? Did you end a cycle of family addiction? Did you get promoted in your first job after two years? Are you the first female director in your organization? Everything. List it. And then once you take the time to write that down in 10 minutes, go back and read it because what you’ve done is created evidence, proof of your capabilities, of your resilience, and you can take that list out, that reverse bucket list anytime you’re not feeling confident. It’s an instant trick that will help build your confidence.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, Shira, I did, in fact, create a list like this in college. I was being rejected for a lot of things, and I was sad. And it was very helpful because self-doubt really did creep in, I was like, “Oh, maybe I’m really not that smart or capable, in general. Geez, everyone keeps rejecting me for these cool opportunities and things I’m applying for.”

And so, I made a big old list, and I referred to it, and it was quite handy. I went to it often. But now I’m thinking back to a conversation we had with Victor Cheng in episode 500 about developing unshakeable self-confidence. I’m curious about our underlying foundation, and we’re getting real philosophical here, Shira.

Shira Miller
Love it.

Pete Mockaitis
In terms of it’s not ideal to pin our sense of value and worth to accomplishments, although it can be handy in a particular context if you think, “I’m no good at this,” like, “Hey, here’s the evidence. You’re pretty good at this.” But even at a deeper level in terms of, like, your general sense of goodness, worthiness, capability, do you have any thoughts on that?

Shira Miller
Yes, and I think that’s a very powerful message. The tool I just talked about is great if you’re not feeling confident in a work situation, or, honestly, a personal situation. You can just change the attitude, the mood, the mentality but you really do need to go deeper. The most important relationship that you have in this world is with yourself. And you need to have an innate self of your worth. You need to be able to trust yourself, and it’s deeper.

And so, I’ve done a lot of work on that over the years through journaling, therapy. Some people work with a professional coach such as yourself. Those are some wonderful ways in which you can build stronger, deeper, unshakeable confidence that will bolster you no matter what you face in your life. It is a deeper journey on the long term.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, this is a lot of cool stuff, Shira. Could you tell us a fun story of someone who stopped their over-apologizing ways and what kind of impact that made for them?

Shira Miller
So, the first person coming to my mind is a friend who was a partner in a $500 million consulting company. Very successful. She was raised in a hard situation, grew up in a double-wide trailer in Alabama, her parents constantly put her down, so she felt like she always had something to over-prove, and didn’t feel like she deserved a seat at the table, ended up putting herself through to good schools, worked for some of the biggest companies in the country, but she always found herself apologizing.

And even as recently as about a year ago, and, again, she’s a partner, she’s a board member at this $500 million company, when the CEO was talking to her one day about a co-worker who wasn’t performing, what did she say? “I’m sorry.” She kept apologizing because a co-worker wasn’t performing. She did nothing wrong. The CEO was consulting with her to try to get a solution, and that was her first indication, “Oh, I really have a problem.”

And so, when she realized this, we started talking about it. She knew that I could offer her some tips, and she started the exercise I said about actually writing it down when you’re doing it. Her name is Cindy. I know she’s not going to care if I use her name. Cindy wrote it down and realized that the list was pretty high, especially for somebody who has such tremendous accomplishments.

So, for her, it was gaining the awareness. And whenever she found herself in conversations that would normally trigger it or with people, she came in there armed and ready to stand more in her power than apologizing for somebody else not delivering work or a situation she had no control over.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then what happened?

Shira Miller
Oh, gosh, I’ll tell you what. It did great for her well-being. She finds herself just really, and this is a woman who is in her 50s, so you can change this at any time in your career. I just want to be really clear about that. It decreased her stress at work.

She realized, “The whole problems of this company and the world are not on my own shoulders. I don’t need to take that on. I don’t need to say ‘I’m sorry for that.’ I can listen. I can be empathetic to it, but, really, people want me to talk more about positive solutions, and I’ll take ownership of a problem that’s not mine.” So, it’s greater well-being and less stress.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic. Well, Shira, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Shira Miller
I just want you to know that you can stop over-apologizing at any time. I did. When I was about 46 years old, there were a whole bunch of circumstances that happened that just made me realize, “I’m done with this BS. I’m not going to sit there and apologize for things when I did nothing wrong anymore.” And it was such a sense of empowerment and ownership, and you can start immediately.

You can practice. Go into one situation that you know, that normally triggers over-apologizing, and don’t do it, and see what happens. See what happens in the room with everybody else, and see how you feel about yourself. It’s going to be a big confidence boost and I bet that it’s going to help you own your greatness even more at work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Shira Miller
So, this is from Albert Einstein, and he said, “Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Shira Miller
Gallup does some wonderful research on workplace wellbeing. And what I love is that they have shown that when employees prioritize their physical and their psychological wellness, your overall well-being, and whether that’s through exercise, having good conversations, engaging in things that align with your values, you’re going to have better job satisfaction, your wellness is going to be better, your actual health, you think smarter. So, I love that people realize, and studies like this that well-being at work is really critical to your performance and the overall success of the company.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Shira Miller
It’s called Peak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success. This book came out like eight or nine years ago, but I constantly go back to it because it has so many helpful tips.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, Brad Stulberg was on the show talking about that, and it is fantastic. And a favorite tool?

Shira Miller
I have become obsessed with ChatGPT. I do a lot of writing, I have to do a lot of research at work, and it can’t create original content well, but whenever I’m trying to dig into a topic and get more insights, it’s a wonderful tool to just go deeper and give me different perspectives, insights, research. It has saved me so much time. I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you give us an example or prompt that has made all the difference for you?

Shira Miller
Yes. So, recently, I’ve been developing a new keynote that is about activating the remarkable and it’s harnessing the power of optimism in the workplace. So, I wanted to go in and I wanted to get examples of companies that had really inspiring value-based purpose statements because that’s one of the ways in which you activate the remarkable. You help people reignite the why, find their purpose.

And so, I went in, it gave me a bunch of examples. And then I said, “Drill down even further and I want you to have companies that did well in 2024,” because I wanted profitable companies. And so, it came back and, for example, Airbnb is high on the list, Netflix, Moderna. And so, I was able to go ahead and get those examples rather than spend hours and hours of research just by using ChatGPT, the paid version.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So, you said, “Hey, give me an example of someone at Moderna who did this thing.”

Shira Miller
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
That is a great use case there in terms of I think you said it just right. I don’t trust its words to be good but I do trust it to surface swell things faster than Google and with more specificity. I like Perplexity for this as well. So, right on. And favorite habit as well, could we hear that?

Shira Miller
I am one of those early morning exercisers. I did not start that way. I was not a morning person 30 years ago, but that is how I get my magic and how I start the day doing something completely for myself. So, I work out almost every day before I get the day started. And it just gives me energy and optimism and makes everything go smoother.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Shira Miller
No matter where you find yourself in life, I don’t care how old you are, what your circumstances are, you can get unstuck. You can start today. You can start now.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Shira Miller
I would say follow me on LinkedIn. It’s Shira Miller. I’d love to have you there. I always post new content. I’ve got a newsletter. I’ve got videos and a lot of helpful content that I’d love to share.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Shira Miller
If you want to be awesome at your jobs, I want you to own your greatness, and you can start immediately by stop apologizing when you’ve done nothing wrong. We’ve given you the tools today. Pick one step. Start to do it, and you’re going to be amazed at how your confidence soars.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Shira, thank you.

Shira Miller
Thank you. This has been wonderful.

Pete Mockaitis
Anne Marie, welcome!

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you, Pete. Excited to be talking with you.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be cultivating some audacity.

Anne Marie Anderson
Darn right. It’s time, isn’t it?

Pete Mockaitis
Let us, yeah. Well, so you have won three Emmys for broadcasting. That’s pretty impressive. Kudos.

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
I imagine you had to pick up some audacity along the way. So, why don’t we kick it off by you sharing your own story of how you cultivated that?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, so audacity is the willingness to take bold risks. That’s the actual definition of it. And I don’t think I was a particularly audacious child. I was pretty skittish, introverted, and such. But certainly, when you decide to work in television, you know there’s going to be a lot of rejection. When you decide to work in sports television, you know there’s going to be a lot of questions about whether or not you really should be there.

So, I kind of started to take a note of when somebody thought I couldn’t do something and started to cultivate it. And I think it’s really important, Pete. Like, it came out of watching. I’ll be really honest, my trip for audacity began when one of my good friends, who was very young and just starting his dream job and newly married and very fit, passed away suddenly.

And I thought, “Okay, if you can be 37 and newly married and starting your dream job to have it ripped away, I’m never going to wait for anything again.” And, honestly, that’s the introduction, by the way, to the book is about that. So, people know like, I wasn’t born this way. It is something that people can absolutely cultivate and grow.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. So, then tell us, any key surprising discoveries you’ve made as you’re researching this and putting together your book? We know that it can be built. Don’t have to be born that way. That’s great. Tell us, any other surprises along the way?

Anne Marie Anderson
I think most people want to be able to do the thing, right? We’ve all got the thing that we wanted to do, whether it is professionally, personally in your relationship, moving in one direction or the other. If you’re in a poor relationship, you can leave, if you want to cultivate your job. But I think we get stuck because wanting to do it and knowing how to do it is really different.

And so, I learned that there’s three components. There’s that mindset. That’s really, Pete, just based on optimism. Like, the belief that it’s going to work out, maybe not the way you wanted, but it’ll work out. Like, you’re down by 12 at the half in a basketball game and you come out the second half because maybe, if you get your offense together, you’ll win. So, there’s that mindset component.

And I think a lot of people have that, the optimism that, “Hey, this could be good. This could really work out,” but they get stuck in the second component, which is the behavior to take action, because you can sit on your mom’s couch and be optimistic all day long and nothing is going to happen until you take an action. Or, maybe, I learned in talking to people, they’ll take one action, they’ll take an action, and then say, “Oh, it didn’t work,” because they didn’t get their desired outcome.

So, what I learned with cultivating audacity, it is the consistency of the mindset and the behavior that leads to the identity. And so, you have to keep doing it over and over. And I think people can be a little bit impatient and they say, “Well, it didn’t work out.” Well, it didn’t work out the way that you wanted, but you got information from that to go again. And that’s the thing I’ve learned. That’s where people get stuck.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that’s really handy in terms of working out can be very broad in terms of somehow it was a positive endeavor as opposed to you got the precise, narrow, exact outcome that you had hoped for and imagined. And I think that’s a really cool thing to bear in mind right there in terms of, I think about entrepreneurship in terms of things have rarely worked out, maybe never, exactly the way I hoped, planned, predicted.

And yet, that was one of reasons I love this podcast as a concept in terms of there are so many ways this can work out well. And, sure enough, things evolved differently than I expected, but it was differently and well. And when you were talking about the learning, being one of those pieces, is super handy or, you know, not to be cliche, but it’s like the real treasure that we hunted for were the friendships that we made along the way. I mean, that’s kind of corny and cheesy, but something that’s really true, it’s like, “No, you did a thing. You met some people and that was amazing. Those are transformational relationships forever.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Exactly. I think people need to recalibrate their relationship with rejection because they think rejection, fear, like it’s over as if it’s some kind of endpoint when, you know, and it took some work for me, but I really now see it all as just data. The data that drives me forward. And to your point, okay, it didn’t end the way that I hoped it would, but I did make this relationship with this person that I learned something from that I can then go in a different direction or a new tact. So, it all just became data and none of it’s the end of a sentence.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds like a pretty transformational place to get to in terms of, “Ah, rejection is no longer this horrifying sensation that is profoundly emotionally difficult,” but rather just, “Huh, how about that? Some data, some information.” How do we get there?

Anne Marie Anderson
When I’ve interviewed people, there’s four things that stand between them and the thing that they want to do. So, it’s fear, fear of embarrassment, rejection, failure, judgment, whatever it is. Time, money, and your inner critic. And I believe you have to deal with that first part, the fear, originally.

So, here’s what I tell people. Go fail. Like, legit, go fail. Because if you’re so afraid to fail, go do something and fail at it, and then see how you survived, and then go again and again. I tell people to seek out, if you have a real sensitivity to rejection, seek it out. I got to a point in my career where I would apply for jobs that there was no chance that I was going to get because I wanted to desensitize myself to rejection.

And every time that I was rejected for it, I would then say, “Yeah, that doesn’t hurt me personally anymore.” I’d ask some information and maybe I’d get a few nuggets out of it. It takes practice. It’s the consistency of getting yourself to realize that rejection, and people say, you want to talk about cliches, rejection is just redirection. It is. It really is. When you get rejected by something, you look for the next step as a branch off of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Seeking out rejections. Yes, I remember I’ve had the experience when I wrote my first book. This is old school and I didn’t really know what I was doing, but I heard you should send a one-page query letter to these publishing houses. So, I did just that. I sent over 100 of these. And it was a very steady situation, going to the mailbox, old school, getting pieces of paper day after day after day after day that said, “No, no, no, no, no.”

I found it actually very helpful for this very notion because, one, it wasn’t super high stakes because I thought, “Okay, I’ll just self-publish, so I’ve got options, you know, whatever. But it’d be kind of cool if I had a legit publisher behind me.” And, two, just to have it kind of appearing in my mailbox such that I could open them when I was ready on any given day.

It’s like, “You know what? Not today. I’m going to read these rejection letters tomorrow.” And then it’s like, “Okay. And I have a nice little pile. How much dosage do I want? You know what? I can handle all seven of these. Let’s open all seven.”

Anne Marie Anderson
That’s awesome, I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, it’s pretty handy. So, now, if we’re not sending letters to a bunch of people, what are your top tips for us to do some seeking out of the rejections?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, I love that you said not particularly high stakes. I’m not asking anybody, I’m not encouraging anybody, by any means, to go quit your job and see how it goes. I’m asking for risks that are worth it versus reckless. So, as you’re starting to figure out rejections, you need to get comfortable with saying no, seeing how things turn out from there, because no is a complete sentence, right?

Like, “Can you come help with the yearbook for your kid’s school?” “No,” and then you don’t have to finish that sentence. So, I think there’s this sitting in uncomfortable no first, because we tend to over explain. And then realizing that that goes both ways. And that if you’re asking a question for somebody, asking a favor, asking if they will publish your book, asking anything, and they say no, you need to then start to get curious about it and not insulted by it.

I started to poke around in how I felt, like physically in my body, what I was thinking, what my inner critic was saying to me when I would get a rejection. Curiosity helps you so much take the emotion out of things. Some things, like if you’re sending letters to a hundred publishers, as you’re talking about, you don’t need to explore the no any further. I then congratulate you for asking and asking and asking because that’s a perfect way to desensitize yourself.

But it starts with a little action at first, maybe it’s you saying no to somebody else, seeing how that feels, and then when you get rejected, get curious. Okay, do you feel that in your heart? Do you feel that in your head? Does it mean that you’re less than? What’s your inner critic telling you about that rejection? There’s lots of ways that you can kind of dive in instead of pushing it away.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that curious piece. And we had Dr. Judson Brewer on the show, and his book Unwinding Anxiety, he had a great tip to get curious. Actually, say out loud, “Hmm.” And that kind of in your body, just kind of make some things happen with regard to shifting into a curious zone. And then I like what you’re saying there with regard to specific bodily sensations and specific inputs. So, let’s just go super deep on this.

Anne Marie Anderson
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
If, let’s say you’re noticing something, I am noticing, maybe, in my body, I’m feeling, “Oh, boy, my heart starts thumping. It’s kind of faster and heavier. I feel a heat rising and it’s particularly on my neck.” And I’m thinking things like, “Ugh, I’m such an idiot. That was so stupid. This is never going to work.” So, let’s just say, okay, we got curious, we identified some things, now what?

Anne Marie Anderson
First of all, the question I would always ask, and it’s so basic, but, like, would you tell somebody else, “That’s so stupid. It’s not going to work”? Of course, you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t just say to your friend, “I’m so stupid. It was never going to work.” So, I recommend separating that voice from yourself. Because if that’s not the way you talk, then that’s not you talking to yourself that way.

The way you separate it from yourself is you give it a name. And it’s so basic, I realized, Pete, but I even learned this with my 12-year-old daughter, because I picked her up from school and I said, “How’s it going?” And she said, “I’m stupid. I can’t do math. And, oh, by the way, I’m fat.” And I was like, “Yo, that’s a lot to take in from a 12-year-old all at once.”

And so, when we unpacked that a little bit, and said, “You wouldn’t say that to somebody else. Give it a name.” I said, “What name do you want to pick?” And she said, “Jerry.” And so, I said, “Okay.” So, every time I hear her go, “Ugh, I can’t do this,” you know, I said to her, “What do you want? What would you say to Jerry if Jerry was an outside person saying it?” She goes, “I’d say, ‘Shut up, Jerry.’

And so, when I hear her get so frustrated, I’ll yell from my office or wherever, “Shut up, Jerry,” and she’ll be like, “Ugh, frustrating,” but it takes the awareness out of it that you’re being super unkind to yourself. So, that’s part one in terms of the actual inner voice. That’s not the truth. That’s not facts. That’s just a thought. And you have control of your thoughts. So, you can tell your Jerry to back off and shut up.

And then you sit with the feelings and you explore those with, “Okay, is it like when I get red or something, when I feel that flush here?” that might be embarrassment or fear of being exposed for not being really good at whatever it is I’m trying to do. Or, it might be fear of judgment because I’m worried what somebody else is going to think.

And that’s a great one to dive into because somebody else thinking it, “Are they doing what you want to do? Or are they just judging you? Or are you perceiving that they’re going to judge you?” So, kind of separating the thought first and then trying to pinpoint the emotion and where it fits specifically into what your heart rate is telling you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, let’s walk it all the way through then, and say, “Yes, that is the thing. I am concerned that someone else is going to think I’m dumb. I’m not good. I’m bad at this. I’m an imposter.” What’d I do with that?

Anne Marie Anderson
So, if someone thinks that of you, then what happens? Like, okay, so they think that of you, what’s the next thing? I walk through this sometimes with my coaching clients where I had one that was going on television, and she was absolutely terrified. And I kept saying to her, “Okay, and then what? And then what?” as she’s about to go on the air, we’re talking. She said, “Oh, I think I might pass out.”

And I said, “Okay, so you’re laying on the ground, a microphone in your hand, you’ve passed out, and then what happens?” And she’s like, “Well, obviously, that’s not going to happen.” I’m like, “Okay, so we’ve reached the point of where we’ve gotten to massive catastrophization where it’s not reasonable that that’s going to happen.” So, in your case, okay, they think I’m bad. I’m exposed as not being good at my job in their eyes. Okay, and then what?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you know what’s so funny is I’ve done this with myself with regard to, I think I was entering into a negotiation and I had to be more assertive than normal. Because, usually, I’m super friendly, collaborative. But at this time, I was like, “You know, if push really came to shove, I’m okay completely torching this relationship to get what I want.”

And that’s almost never true of me. And I’m not going to be like evil, right? But if I have to choose between the two, it’s like, “I 100 % want the outcome over the relationship here,” which is so out of character for me. I was challenging myself, it’s like, “So, what if this guy thinks that I’m a total jerk, that he hates doing business with me, and doesn’t want to do business?”

And I thought, “I guess the worst-case scenario would be anytime he hears my name in any context, he screams at the top of his lungs, ‘I hate that F-er.’” And I was like, “You know what? I’m still okay with that.”

Anne Marie Anderson
“I can live with that.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m still okay with the trade here, given the stakes versus the relationship.” But because it was so new, and I am a bit of a people pleaser, it was challenging for me, and it worked out fine. We have a fine relationship and the negotiated outcome is okay.

Anne Marie Anderson
But that leads right to what we talked about, Pete, right, is that it wasn’t the outcome you wanted and you survived, originally. So, the more people get used to doing that, to saying, “Okay, this person may think I’m exposed,” and you keep going anyway, the less sensitive you become and the less vulnerable to peeling back yourself in order to please other people.

My friend, Laura Gassner-Otting, always says, “Why give a vote to anybody who shouldn’t even have a voice?” If they’re not going where you’re going, or if they haven’t been there, right, they may not get a vote. If you’re asking them for a job, sure, they can get a vote, but they’re not necessarily going to be able to have that voice in your head afterwards. They can say no, but you don’t have to believe if they say you’re horrible and you’re never going to work in this business again. That’s choice.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, and I think the “and then what” is so handy because it unmasks the, I guess, like The Wizard of Oz or The Emperor Has No Clothes. It’s like, “Okay, so you’ve imagined this horrifying scenario, it feels really bad, but the objective reality is not so heinous.” It’s like, okay, some of your opportunities might be limited because of that person’s sphere of influence. Okay, that’s kind of inconvenient, but like you’re not dead, hospitalized, bankrupt. You’re still in pretty great shape.

Anne Marie Anderson
No, catastrophization is an incredible tool. I’ll tell you this, I’m a sports broadcaster, as you mentioned, I’ve worked for ESPN and other networks for 35 years. So, my first time on live television, because I was a producer first, was in 78 million homes. It wasn’t supposed to be that way. My very first time, I was supposed to be on a little network, things got shuffled around, I was a pretty accomplished producer. So, I was petrified outside the stadium, college football opening weekend, on ESPN too.

And my then husband said, “What’s the worst that can happen?” And I was like, “Buddy, if you want to know what the worst that can happen is, let me tell you.” I was like, “I could be so bad at this job that not only will I never get asked to be on air again, but I’ll never be asked to produce again because the people I produce for will know I can’t do their job. And I could lose my entire career over this for being so bad on air.”

“And if I lose my entire television career, I will be so miserable and you will have no choice but to leave me because I won’t be able to be a good mother to our children who aren’t even born yet and I could die destitute and alone.” And he was like, “Wow.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Anne Marie, you’re a champion at this.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah. I say take it all the way to destitute and alone because obviously that’s not going to happen. And anything short of that becomes a success. So, catastrophize, it’s a great tool because you’ll see how just ridiculous your mind, ridiculous places your mind can take you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. So, thank you. All right. So, we went through the whole arc there associated with we got some fear, we sought out some rejection, we felt some rejection, we explored it and then we got to the other side. Cool. Any other pro tips, do’s or don’ts in that department?

Anne Marie Anderson
Do the thing that scares you the most first. So, go for the biggest job first, the biggest change. Now understand, Pete, I do want to be clear about this because sometimes the change you’re looking for, let’s say you’re in an unhealthy relationship and you need to change that, and you’ve got some fear around leaving that person. I’m not asking you to, Devil’s care, just throw it out.

There are some systems where you can build… an important part of this as your front row, the people who are going to cheer you on and challenge you and lift you up. I think it’s really important when you’re going through this facing fear that you have carefully curated what I call the front row. And that front row may not be your best friend. It may not be your mom because they want you to keep you safe.

The front row will be people that will challenge you, help you. If it’s leaving a relationship, it may be somebody who’s helping you in terms of an attorney or somebody more skilled or somebody who’s been through it. So, your front row isn’t just your buddies. It’s people who know where you’re going or have already been where you’re going.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, certainly. So, having support makes all the difference, and to be thoughtful about not just friends and family, but those who have expertise, they know the way and care about your flourishing as opposed to just your safety. But you’ve great point about parents. Sometimes that’s how that goes.

Anne Marie Anderson
Right. And tell them, tell them they’re in your front row. We use that phrase. And it’s basically where you’ll be, “Here’s a thing I want to do. And I’m a little bit scared of it. And I’m worried that I don’t have whatever, the qualifications, the funds, the time, whatever it is. And I’m wondering if you would take a seat in my front row to help me get from here to there.”

And sometimes that’s a shoulder to cry on. It can be anything, but when you make people aware that you have selected them to be in your front row, they then play a more active role in your search for the next big thing.

Pete Mockaitis
And I like the visual as well because it’s fun and it’s not a super high level of commitment in terms of forever or, it’s like, “Will you be my mentors?” Like, “Okay, what are we talking about here? This sounds maybe big.” But front row is like, “Okay, you’re a person who’s providing some level of support over the course of this particular mission, quest, journey, transition. And then that’s fun.

I mean, in terms of you get to bask in the glory as a front row attendee, even if all you did was make an introduction. And then it’s like, “Hey, I got to be part of that. And by being invited into the front row, I feel like I had even more of a role. It’s like it’s elevated what I did beyond the 20 minutes of effort that I did it, you know?”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yep, yep. And it’s a witness too. It’s a witness. If things don’t work out the way that you want, here’s your friend in your front row, your colleague, somebody who’s, maybe you don’t even know them personally, maybe it’s an author and you’re trying to write a book and this person is helping you out, but you’ve got somebody to help you with perspective. And I think that’s a critical component of the front row. And it’s an honorary place.

And by the way, don’t be afraid to pull somebody out of your front row if you discover that they have a jealousy, competition, those kinds of things. I love that you said, like, it’s not a lifetime appointment, the front row. It can be ever changing and you can use it. I have a fitness front row and if I don’t show up at the gym, my phone starts blowing up, “Hey, where are you?” I’ve got a television front row, a personal relationship front row. There’s some overlap, but there’s some people that are just in one category.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. And you recommend just actually using that language and telling them what you mean by it?

Anne Marie Anderson
I do. I do because it creates an awareness and an intention, and kind of what you were alluding to. It’s a place of pride for them that they might take it a little more seriously their role in supporting you because they’ve been offered a job. How are they supposed to know otherwise? So, when you tell them, “Hey, I’m going to do this. I’m worried about it. So, I need your support and that would mean a lot to me.” Great things happen in those kinds of groups.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we talked about four things getting in the way: fear, time, money, inner critic. And it sounds like fear and inner critic have a lot of overlap. Is there any distinction you would suggest or anything special we should do about the inner critic that’s different than what we’re doing for fear?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, naming it really is the big thing, as we talked about, and that connects with your fear. And then some people will talk to your inner critic and they’ll say, like, “I get it. You’re always going to be there.” You know, I think it was Glennon Doyle who wrote in her book, like it’s “A passenger in the car, but you’re absolutely not allowed to drive. You’re not allowed to play with the radio, but it’s fine. I acknowledge that you’re going to come along.”

I think so much of what we do is try to push it away, and I say, “Well, what if you let that in? What if you let your inner critic really talk to you so that you can become aware of it, and be like, ‘Yeah, no, that’s not helpful’?” Some people have a mantra. One of my friends, who is a keynote speaker, is still very nervous.

And so, she created, she always looks at the joint between the ceiling and the wall, the back wall of the room, and she will repeat to herself a mantra to push her inner critic out by saying “Where the floor hits the ceiling is a wonderful feeling.” That’s my friend, Missy West, uses that. Creating something to shake you out of spiraling with your inner critic, whether it’s a name, a mantra, because you can only have one thought in your mind at a time. So, that’s helpful to push your inner critic out of your head at that moment.

Pete Mockaitis
And does the inner critic have some value? Like, I think of the inner critic sometimes as like the part of you that wants to keep you stuck but in a of a safe sort of a way. Is it just the utter destructiveness that needs to be abolished? Or is there a means of engaging in conversation with the inner critic to surface the goodness while leaving out the badness?

Anne Marie Anderson
Perfection, Pete. Like, you totally get it. Think of it like this. Your ego or your id comes up with this crazy idea, like, “We should do this. That would be amazing.” And your super ego, in this case, I’d call that the inner critic, saying, “That’s too dangerous. That’s too scary. That’s too risky,” whatever it is, and your ego is trying to find a way to get you there safely. So, that’s why I say the curiosity about what the inner critic is saying because maybe there’s a nugget of truth in there.

Maybe it’s raising some questions about safety, not about “You suck,” but about safety and things where you can go back and examine it. Okay, your inner critic is saying, “You don’t have the money to be able to do this crazy thing.” Okay, that’s when you have that conversation with your inner critic, “Tell me more about that. I don’t have the money there. Okay, well, how can I get to a place where I have the money? Well, do I really need that much money to take step one?”

Maybe you do, but that’s where I think your inner critic can help you, but your inner critic is never the one that makes the decision. Never. They can raise questions for you, but they are never the one who’s going to say, or you should allow to say, “You suck. This is not for you. Don’t do it.” They’re just somebody to raise questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. They provide input. They’re advisor, not the decider. Lovely. Thank you. Well, can you tell us a cool story about someone who internalized some of these principles, concepts, and then cultivated tremendous audacity, where before they had little, and great things happened?

Anne Marie Anderson
What comes to my mind first was a friend of mine who wanted to get his real estate license. He was working in a store and not doing very well and not happy and he has two kids. So, he wanted to create more income, wanted his real estate license, but wasn’t taking the test. And I finally said, like, “What’s the issue?” And he said, “I can’t find enough time to study for the test, and so I’m afraid I’m going to fail it.”

And I said, “Okay, a test is $60. There’s no limit on how many times you can take it.” So, I told him to go take the test and fail it. And he’s like, “On purpose?” And I said, “Well, not on purpose, but you’ve told me you’re not going to pass. So, let’s get the fear of failing the test out of the way.” Spent $60, he went, he failed the test.

“Okay, next thing, let’s talk about time.” We have a tendency to prioritize things that are urgent over what’s important, because your whole day is urgent, constantly, every email, every text, every phone call, you got to take care of the kids and make food and do all the other things, and carving out time that’s important. So, with my help, he and his wife sat down and said, “Where can I get an hour a day without leaving you hanging with the young kids?” He has two young kids.

And so, they decided a half hour in the morning, she was going to handle breakfast and all that. And then a half hour in the evening, he would help get the kids to the bath, and then he would lock himself away for a half hour. She’d take on the bath and he would be out for book and bed. And once they had that rhythm where they worked to the problem, there’s the two problems, right, fear that you’re going to fail, so he did that. Okay, survived.

Then no time to study, did that, took the test again, failed again, but that time it didn’t crush him because he had a system and was like, “Okay, I just need to keep going with our plan and studying.” He ended up absolutely passing that, quit the other job and is doing extremely well financially now because he took the leap, he had his front row set, his wife was in his front row saying, “I got you during this. I can create some space for you.” And he faced his fear and addressed his time concerns.

Pete Mockaitis
But my favorite part of this story is that, as you’re crafting this plan, it’s like, “Okay, so step one, step two, step three. Step one, go fail.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah. Right? But do!

Pete Mockaitis
Like, that’s in the design of the blueprint that you’re using. And I think that is a liberating idea that could be great for many plans we might make for ourselves, “All right, step one, go fail at it. All right, now that’s over, what’s step two?”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, you’ve survived it. Because I think a lot of people see failure as like the end, like a period at the end of the sentence. It’s a comma, I promise you. Rejection, it’s a comma and it moves you on. So, if that’s what’s paralyzing you, go fail first, survive it and then get to work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, Anne Marie, anything else you want to make sure to really mention or cover any top do’s or don’ts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Anne Marie Anderson
I would encourage people to look at the urgency fallacy. That’s one other component that I think a lot of people get stuck we hide between, and I’m guilty of this too. If I have something big to do that I don’t want to do or even like expense reports that I don’t want to do, I’ll have the cleanest house in the world because I don’t want to do that thing, and so I will do anything else to avoid it.

And so, the urgency fallacy is when you take a break on what’s urgent, because anything urgent can wait 15 minutes, I promise you. Not an emergency, your kid’s not bleeding on the floor, but something that people think are urgent, returning an email, and work towards what’s important. And if that’s you starting a business, that’s you sending some notes right at that moment. If that is you looking at your finances and deciding where you can make some trims, that’s that moment.

I encourage people four times a day, carve out 15-minute blocks, unless you’ve got an hour a day, but most people don’t have one straight hour a day where everything goes off. And, you know, I tell you what, my kids, Pete, when they said like, “I’m hungry,” I would go, “Same.” I got teenagers, they can make their own food. They get really frustrated when they hear me say, “Yeah, same buddy, I’m hungry. Anyway, I’m going in to do what’s important now for 15 minutes.”

So, I think that’s a really important component. Stop putting everything and everyone else first if going to do the thing, whatever audacious, is going to make your life better, your family’s life better, prioritize important.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Anne Marie, I love that so much. Because we’ve heard Eisenhower matrix, Stephen Covey, you know, urgent-importance, two-by-two matrix, yada, yada. But what you’re bringing to this, which I find very intriguing is, one, urgency kind of has a grip on us. And what you’re suggesting is to proactively break its command by doing these 15-minute bits, which is great because, one, we may have some resistance, especially with important things, because important things can feel hard. They often are.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s why they’re not already done is because they’re hard, but have high value. And so, it could feel like you don’t have the mental space. It’s like, “I want to really make sure I tackle that when I have a whole afternoon available.” And you say, “No, no, no, that may never happen. And you’re going to remain in the grips of urgency if you play that game.” So, to make it a habit of “I’m taking these 15 minutes.”

And, in a way, it’s so defiant in terms of, like, the inner personal power that that’s generating for you with regard to, “Yes, I see that urgency. I’m feeling the tug of it. And I’m now conscientiously turning away from it to do this other thing. And my children will whine about being hungry for 15 minutes, and they’re okay. And I am better off, well, actually we’re all better off for having put that 15 minutes in there.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, the big difference is in people identifying what’s really urgent and what’s important. Things that are urgent have an impending deadline. They can usually be accomplished pretty quickly and without a lot of deep thought. If you’re answering an email really quickly or a text or making dinner, whatever it is, that qualifies as urgent in my book. Things that are important don’t necessarily have an impending deadline, exactly as you said, like, “When I have a whole afternoon, then I’ll do it.”

But there are consequences if you don’t get it done, meaning you won’t move closer to your values and vision and who you want to be. So, they do take more effort, more thought, but they move you closer to where you want to be. And the 15 minutes, people can do it however they want.

I’ve had some people who like to do 20-minute blocks. The real estate agent I told you about, he did two half-hour blocks, but they’re intentional blocks. And I think intentional is exactly the right word that separates just living your life and living it with this prioritization.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you found inspiring?

Anne Marie Anderson
My mother has always said, “This, too, shall pass,” and it made me nuts in my entire life. But what I realized is not just the discomfort will pass or the failure or the bad situation, but the good times too. They’ll pass, the great calm. And then there’ll be another storm that comes up.

And so, when I’m in a really good space, I remind myself, “Just enjoy this. Don’t be thinking so far ahead. We don’t know what that looks like.” And eventually there’ll be more problems that come up. So, enjoy the space you’re in. If you’re in an uncomfortable space, know that it will pass again. I live near the ocean. I just think of the waves coming.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Anne Marie Anderson
I like the studies about men traditionally applying for jobs when they have less credentials than a woman will apply. Women liking to wait until they’ve got all the credentials. And people think, “Oh, it’s women breaking the glass ceiling.” It’s really about a sticky floor. And as women, we need to jump earlier and risk earlier.

If a man applies for a job at 50 % and doesn’t get it, he’s got some information and some data. If he goes back at 65 and doesn’t get it again, now he’s been in front of that person hiring twice. And if he goes back at 85% and the female goes at 85%, well, he’s got a leg up because they’ve watched him add to his skillset and grow. And so, I like those studies because I think we can reverse those numbers with a little bit of audacity.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Anne Marie Anderson
Right now, I’m going to say Good Awkward by Henna Pryor.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Anne Marie Anderson
I have a large, it’s not on my desk right now, a large one-hour time. What do we call that thing? It’s escaping me.

Pete Mockaitis
Hourglass?

Anne Marie Anderson
Yes, an hourglass. Thank you. Not a hard word, but, anyway. And I put, sorry, it’s 30 minutes. And I turn that over on my desk to remind myself. I like to work, just in general, in 30-minute blocks and then I’ll get up for five minutes, move around, do something in the kitchen and then sit down and turn it back over again. It helps me feel like it’s not going to be endless, an endless day for me if I know that every 30 minutes I get to get up for five.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, the front row. People really attach to that front row concept and it works. It works. And I had somebody who heard me at a talk and she approached me afterwards, and said, “You know, I want to be…” it was an educational keynote. And she said, “I really want to be an assistant principal. I have been a teacher for 28 years.” And then she casually mentioned her principal was there. And I said, “Well, did you tell him what you want?” She said, “No, but I will.” And I was like, “Yeah, today’s the day. Unfortunately, you have me right here. So, today’s the day.”

And after much cajoling, she went up to him and said, “Here’s something I’d like to do. Will you be in my front row?” And he had heard my talk, so he knew the verbiage. And six weeks later, I got a note from her, I swear to you, and she said, “I start my new job tomorrow as assistant principal at this school. Thanks so much.” And so, the front row works.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Anne Marie Anderson
To my website, AnneMarieAnderson.com. And, of course, I’m on social as well. You can find me at CultivatingAudacity.com, or Anne Marie Anderson TV.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Anne Marie Anderson
If you want to be awesome at your job, ask yourself what you can do that nobody is asking you to do. How can you be a better teammate to your co-workers and not shining the light on yourself? Teams make the world go around. So, you want to be awesome at your job? Elevate your co-workers, help them shine, take something off their plate.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Anne Marie, this is fun. Thank you. I wish you much audacity.

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you very much. I wish you a lot of audacity too, Pete. Thanks for having me on.