KF #26. Being Resilient Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Joseph, welcome!

Joseph Nguyen
Thank you so much for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your area of expertise. Your book, Don’t Believe Everything You Think, has just taken off tremendously. Congratulations.

Joseph Nguyen
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
And the title is so good. It’s so funny, Amazon auto-completes if you type, “Don’t believe everything you think.” It’s like, “Nice.”

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that’s a great advertisement, I guess, and a great slogan just to have all over Amazon. It’s what it should be, instead of all the stuff that we don’t need to be buying.

Pete Mockaitis
Don’t buy many other things here.

Joseph Nguyen
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so can you take us through the journey a little bit of how you and your relationship to thought and the insights that you discovered came to be in your own personal lived existence?

Joseph Nguyen
A lot of what I’ve come to realize comes from, this is not new information. This has been here for eons, thousands of years, from everyone and so many different countries, cultures. I mean, I draw influence from Western philosophy, Eastern philosophies, Zen Buddhism, Christianity. So much cognitive behavioral therapy. Like, you name it, there’s probably some sort of influence there.

But I think the only time that I was able to actually integrate it into my life was when I sort of hit a rock-bottom moment where, after I really tried as much as I possibly could all the options that were available to me, like, I mean, there’s therapy, there’s acupuncture, acupressure, there’s going vegan. I did all these things and it didn’t really quite work until it forced me to look internally.

I was trying to do everything to change everything outside of me, so changing people’s behaviors, how they viewed me, how they judged me, wanting and trying to earn other people’s approval, love, all these sorts of things, all these attempts at finding what could only be found within. So, I think the moment where I kind of hit rock bottom, which was a point in my life where, I mean, I had a business that was growing. It was going great. I accomplished a lot of the goals that I had, but at the cost of my own mental health.

So, every single day, I was just so chronically anxious, borderline depressed. I was probably depressed. I just wouldn’t admit it to myself that that was it. And I just didn’t know when the next client was coming from. I didn’t know if we’re going to have enough money, food. My partner, now wife, she had a lot of physiological illnesses.

So, she had gastroparesis, and so she couldn’t eat, got a feeding tube, hospitalized multiple times. All of that was happening concurrently with, basically, my business falling apart. Then my business partner and I split. I went 50,000 into debt at around 21, 22 years old. And so, all of that happened within a span of about a year.

And so, that was probably the rock-bottom moment that I hit, where I thought, after accomplishing everything that I wanted, that it would give me this internal peace and joy, but it did the exact opposite. And that was because I didn’t realize where peace comes from, and it doesn’t come from manipulating the environment or other people or the world to whatever I think it needs to be. It comes from releasing that desire, that need to change everything outside of me except myself.

So, rock bottom, I think pain is a great motivator and catalyst for change. Most people, like myself, probably wouldn’t change if it wasn’t absurdly painful. So, I’m actually very grateful for those experiences, but it’s quite difficult to go through it. But that was the genesis of the turning point for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, thank you for sharing that. That’s heavy, and it’s a lot. And I think what you’re articulating dead on, we just chatted with Anne-Laure Le Cunff, who discussed the arrival fallacy, this notion, “Ah, yes, when this happens, then it’ll be smooth sailing. I’ll be happy. I’ll be free. I’ll be at peace. All my problems will be solved.”

And it just doesn’t work out that way. And sometimes we don’t believe it until, as you’ve said, we experience that pain. We have arrived and go, “Uh-oh, shoot, these feelings are still there, that lack of peace is still there.

Joseph Nguyen
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
So, what then? What happened next?

Joseph Nguyen
So, it basically forced me to look inside, because I was trying all these modalities to help, and they did help to a certain extent, but it didn’t really change that much. And it puzzled me, because I thought to myself, “I surely can’t be the only one going through this. So that’s when I started looking for a lot of different solutions.

And then I started questioning my own experiences, and other people’s experiences too, which is I think most people, if not every single human, goes through extremely difficult and challenging events and times or even traumas.

And so, I started to ask myself and run thought experiments, where it was like, “If two people, have similar traumas, how is it possible that one person can spiral downwards and fall into a deep depression and isn’t really able to get out of it, while another person who has gone through something similar is able to make amends and make peace with the past and become okay with what happened?”

And not only that, but become empowered by what happened and go on to want to help other people not experience the same thing. How is that possible if we can’t go back and change the past? So, neither one of them went back to alter the events in any single way, which means it’s not the events that was changed, but their own thinking about what happened to them.

And so, that sparked an epiphany, which was, our emotions don’t come from external events, they come from our own thinking about the events, which is our own judgments, our own opinions, our own criticisms about the event, or even ourselves and our own thoughts about whatever happened. And so, that was what kind of made a giant light bulb moment for me, which is like, “Oh, my gosh, there’s no way to change the past, but I can always change the way that I’m viewing it. Is this helpful or hurtful? This sort of incessant nonstop negative judgment of life, of myself, of other people?”

And so, that spawned a whole slew of new questions for myself, which was like, “Why do I do that? Why do I constantly wish things were different? Why do I constantly tell myself that I’m not enough, not good enough, not smart enough, not whatever it is, and repeating these stories to myself?” And I never stopped to ask myself, “Is that actually helpful? When has overthinking helped me?”

And so, I realized then that overthinking doesn’t solve problems, it creates them and exacerbates them. And I just didn’t understand that I could just not judge, negatively judge, the things that are happening in my life or myself. That was an extremely liberating moment for me. And, I mean, most of the thoughts that we have, we have over 60,000 thoughts in a single day. How is it possible that every single one of those thoughts is true? There’s no way, right?

And if it were true that we are our thoughts, what happens to the thought that just passed our minds, that just left? We’re still here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’d disappear.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we’re still here, right? So, that means we are something beyond our thoughts. Same thing with emotions. If we are our emotions, if I am depressed, or if I am anxious, if I am those things, or I am happy, what happens when those things pass, anxiety or happiness? I’m still here. How is that possible?

So, we are not our thoughts and we are not our emotions then. We are something greater than that. And that is the feeling and the space that I sink back into to finally find some peace because I realize that everything in life is transient, including our thoughts. And if we are the common denominator that is still here, then those fleeting things can’t be possibly us. That was the eye-opener for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Wow, there’s so much good stuff here, and I’m just drawing all kinds of connections. I recall I was in a therapy session once, and I posed the same question, and it’s like, “So, is it true that, like Nietzsche or Kelly Clarkson says, that which doesn’t kill you makes you stronger?” Or, is it the opposite experience in which, “No, I had a bad thing happen to me and I’m somehow less strong, weaker, not as capable as a result of the experience”?

So, it’s like, “So which is it? And under what circumstances, and why, and what’s the distinction?” And he didn’t give me the easy answer, “That’s one of the greatest questions of therapy.”

Joseph Nguyen
He was amping you up, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
So, yeah, I mean, and that is one of the assertions, I believe, of cognitive behavioral therapy or of Shakespeare. There’s nothing good or bad, but rather thinking makes it so, and our cognitive distortions or our thoughts about things and judgments shape the emotional reactions and experiences we have. And we had a Navy Seal Alden Mills sharing some similar notions, like, “Hey, is this thought helpful or hurtful? All right. Well, then let’s bring some energy to the helpful thoughts.”

And we got some real wisdom there. It’s, like, we cannot be our thoughts, we cannot be our emotions, because our thoughts and our emotions are ever shifting and changing. And that sounds wise and familiar. Is this coming from a wisdom tradition? Or is this a Joseph original?

Joseph Nguyen
Oh, no, nothing is original from me. Creativity is just a blend of a lot of different parts and combining it into something seemingly new. But it’s all from Eastern philosophy, some Western, right, some Stoicism, Zen, Buddhism, in that there’s tons of psychology in there, right? Like cognitive behavioral therapy uses so much of this in terms of questioning our own thoughts, our own emotions, trying to figure out the root cause of all this. So, all of that, I definitely stand on the shoulders of many, many giants from centuries or millennia.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, you put a stake in the ground, and it seems like you’ve got some real conviction here, that it is, indeed, our thoughts and judgments and overthinking, over-thoughts, about a situation that is the source of our depression, anxiety. And I’m thinking, is it the only source, the primary source? Are we sure about this? It sounds true-ish, but what’s our best evidence for it?

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, in terms of emotions, there’s no way to really prevent “negative emotions.” Those will always come and go. What I propose in the book is less about preventing them, but to reduce the time spent experiencing those emotions. Because a lot of times, we are replaying and ruminating on memories of the past, and bringing them into the present moment and reliving that experience from a certain vantage point of it, which may or may not be true, I don’t know.

But if it makes us feel a lot of anxiety or depression or resentment, is that possible for us to change? And if so, then how? And so, in the book, I started to realize, like, let’s say there’s a lot of people in veteran hospitals or recovering in Alcoholics Anonymous or tons of people who have been through so many different things. How is it possible that there’s people that have gone through something similar, but then have different results?

So, it’s like, “What are they changing? They’re not going back in the past to do that, so they’re changing something now in the present moment to alter their experience.” And so, that’s where the book is coming from, which is like, “What can we do now that things have happened, and becoming more resilient, right?”

This is building and training emotional regulation and resilience rather than a prevention of emotions in totality, because a lot of times, sometimes emotions are very helpful. They help to protect us. They help give us signs. All emotions are messengers to help us and to show us what we need to pay attention to. That’s all emotions are.

But if we believe them to be the only source of truth and an ultimate conclusion about ourselves, then that’s where we run into trouble. And, let’s say, if we’re really depressed, then we might think about ourselves, and say, “We’re not enough. We’re not lovable. We’ll never find love.” These sorts of beliefs about ourselves, which is what I call “thinking” or “negative judgments,” those things are not necessarily that helpful and they harm us more than help us.

And so, is it possible to let those things go? And if so, how? So, for me, why I use the word “thinking” in particular is because it’s the best word I could find to explain the phenomena of just ruminating negatively on something. So I make a distinction in the book, thoughts versus thinking. A thought is a neutral observation or intuitive prompting about an event that happened.

Pete Mockaitis
“I would like to eat some food.”

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that is a thought.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, that’s a desire.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, that could be a desire.

Pete Mockaitis
A thought and a desire.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, and then thinking, on the other hand, is a negative judgment about an event or your own thoughts. So, let’s take a scenario.

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m overweight. I shouldn’t eat all this food.”

Joseph Nguyen
Right. See, “should” is a great indicator that we’re thinking, right? That’s usually a preliminary word that we use before we judge ourselves. And so, an example of this is, let’s say it’s raining outside. A thought is, “It’s raining.” That’s a neutral observation. Thinking, on the other hand, would be something like, “Why is this happening? Why does this always happen to me? This rain completely ruined my day. I’m always unlucky like this.”

All of this thinking about the thought of it raining is not as helpful to us and is the source of all this suffering. So, let’s say we did have something planned and it rained and it ruined our day, that’s unfortunate, right? Like, we had plans, we planned for it, but is it possible to not let it ruin our entire day? Is it possible to let go of this emotional suffering within a few minutes?

And so, that’s why I say that’s the thinking part of whatever is going on. And although we can’t change the event or even our initial thought of it, we can always let go of the thinking or judgment about whatever is going on, and that’s where the power lies. For example, thoughts have no power over us unless we believe them to be true, right? So, the belief in the judgment is what causes this suffering and is the difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Well, now, as you use the word “thinking,” I am wondering if we could have other, do some other thinking, or judging about the rain in a positive fashion, in terms of, “At last, the crops will be nourished by this rain,” or, “You know what, let’s just frolic like a child.”

And so, in your definition, would you still call that thinking even though it has maybe a positive vibe or feeling associated with it?

Joseph Nguyen
I think there’s two different categories of what we can call positive thinking. On one hand, it could just be an intuitive prompting. An example of that would just be, “It’s raining. Let’s go outside and play in the rain.” It doesn’t necessarily have to skew towards, “This is the best thing that’s ever happened in the entire world.”

See, like where we can over-exaggerate positive thinking is equally where we can fall short of it because who’s to say it is the best thing in the entire world? Because if it’s raining here, it might flood somewhere else. So, it’s very difficult to just, ultimately and conclusively, say if this is good or bad. And so, if we are overly positive about something, then it opens us up for, “Well, what if that might not be the case?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, so it might feel good, but we’re not necessarily getting closer to truth or accurate representation of reality.

Joseph Nguyen
Correct, yeah. And we can skew both ways, and that’s when positive thinking can then open us up all sorts of cans of worms. But that’s not to say that positive thinking doesn’t work, and I don’t want to say that at all. It certainly does work, but the question is, “Is it sustainable? And is it based in reality?” So, if we observe the rain, and we’re like, “Oh, look, it’s like nourishing the crops,” like that’s a neutral and true observation, like it is feeding the plants and all that stuff, and we can feel good about that.

But what I also observed as well was, once we let go of the negative judgment about things, we are naturally at peace. We are naturally more joyful. We skew towards that way. And if you look at children that are a couple years old, they skew towards happiness. They’re smiling, they’re happy, unless they’re like hungry or like something is physiologically wrong. They’re generally just very positive, very happy, laughing all the time.

And that’s our natural state as well if we don’t negatively judge whatever situation is going on. If we let go of worrying about the future or ruminating and resenting the past, that is our default state. So, you don’t necessarily have to try to be positive. And other examples I love giving is, think about or recall a time where it’s like you were very anxious, or stressed, or overwhelmed. Like, how much thinking is going on?

Pete Mockaitis
Plenty.

Joseph Nguyen
Too much, right? But then if we flip and invert the question, recall a time when you were your happiest, in a total state of flow, and you lost track of time, how much thinking was going on then?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s, I guess per your definition of thinking, like, very little. Although, if you’re in a flow and doing a thing, you naturally have to—

Joseph Nguyen
You’re having thoughts.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, you’re having thoughts, but you’re not thinking in the Joseph-sense of the word.

Joseph Nguyen
Right, you’re not negatively judging the thoughts or experience that you’re having. You’re just in it, you’re fully immersed. That’s when you lose a sense of self, actually, and that’s when we are no longer psychologically suffering. And some people in the spiritual community will call this like the death of the ego. It’s when you just dissolve and you feel at one with everything. That’s what flow is and why a lot of times people will say like that’s this ideal state for humans to be in.

Athletes experience this very often when they’re in and playing a game during a competition. They’re not so much thinking about what’s going on. They are just intuitively responding and being there. And that’s like our ideal state that we’re in. Actually, the times that athletes think too much, they tend to miss the shots, or think too much about something and overanalyze, and that’s when they freeze and choke when they could have definitely done something different.

The same thing is true for our own lives. The more that we constantly just ruminate, judge, and criticize ourselves, other people, events, we tend to freeze, and go into fight-or-flight mode, and act as if our life really is in danger, and operate from a place of fear rather than love and expansion and joy.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Joseph, we’re getting near a zone I’ve been pondering for a while, which is, you talk about when we feel a sense of peace or joy and flow, contentment. And I’ve been reflecting on the distinction between contentment and boredom. Because, in terms of an external view of the situation, they’re almost the same.

It’s like, “Nothing’s really happening right now.” And yet, when we feel bored, we’re restless, agitated, and, I guess, negatively judging, “I don’t like that nothing’s going on right now,” versus when we are content, it’s like, “Ah, nothing’s going on right now.” And that feels restful, rejuvenating, restorative, and we like and appreciate the space that we find ourselves in.

So, I guess that is perhaps one of many examples of the judgment we bring to a situation, shaping it, but I’d love your pro tip. If we find ourselves bored and would rather be content, what should we do?

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, great question. So, boredom is not necessarily a bad thing. Boredom, a lot of times, is the birth of creation, new things, new hobbies, new thoughts, new ideas. If we’re not bored a lot of the time or sometimes, then we’re actually just recycling a lot of the same material from the past and constantly going and we feel like we’re in the hamster wheel. So, boredom is not necessarily bad. And when you see kids get bored, what do they do? They invent.

Pete Mockaitis
They invent some games.

Joseph Nguyen
Exactly. That’s what humans do. When we’re bored, we create, and so it acts as a great motivator. But where things can go a little bit south is when we say, “Oh, instead of being content with what’s happening right now,” let’s say we’re on vacation, “I should be working. If I’m working these hours, I could make so much more money or I have all these emails I need to get to.”

You’re not able to actually enjoy yourself in the present moment, and you’re constantly thinking about the future and all these things you need to get done, that’s when the “boredom” or what we would call that in that case, that’s when it robs our peace and takes it away from us is when we think we need to be doing something else other than what we’re currently doing or experiencing.

So, in that case, what I love recommending to do is just to schedule those things and just, like, if you’re on vacation, like that’s the boundary you need to draw for yourself. But if we don’t draw boundaries, it will creep in. All of these beliefs that we have, all these negative judgments that we have about ourselves or what we should and shouldn’t be doing, they will come in unless we set that boundary for ourselves.

Like, “If I’m on vacation, my phone is off,” or, “I’m not taking emails or whatever it is.” But without those, they will creep in and they will start to fester and become uncontrollable at that point. And this is really a practice of presence more than anything else. Are we able to do and give our full attention to what is happening right now in front of us? Or, are we distracted and thinking about something else in the meantime?

Peace comes from being present. It is a natural byproduct of doing so. The more that we are able to do that, that’s the happier we will be, for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m reminded of the Scientific Journal article, “A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind,” which, I think it was Kahneman and company looked at just that in terms of empirically checking with people and, “Hey, what are you doing? What are you thinking about?” and seeing the results. So, that’s that there. When you say boundaries, my first thought is sort of external things, like, “I will not be picking up my smartphone,” “I will not be answering emails on vacation.” Do you have some thoughts for boundaries we have, like with ourselves and our own thoughts or experiences?

Joseph Nguyen
Those are the most important boundaries because we can change everything external but if we don’t change anything internally then we’re still going to suffer a lot emotionally. So, some of the most important internal boundaries that you so aptly alluded to are the judgments that we’re making that is really at the core of our emotional suffering, of our resentment towards others, to ourselves.

If we don’t draw that boundary, and say, like, “We will no longer judge ourselves in this light,” then we’re going to keep doing it. And we do this mostly because we’re not even aware that there’s an option out, that, “Oh, we can just not judge everything that’s going on? Like, there’s a way that, as I go about my life, I don’t have to constantly narrate and say this is good, this is bad, this is right, this is wrong, this should be happening, this shouldn’t be happening?”

We just aren’t taught that. Most people just don’t know, and I wasn’t aware of that until I was basically smacked in the face with it and had to hit rock bottom to find it. But that is probably the most important boundary to set, which is, “Can we let go of the judgments that we’re having about ourselves, the world, whatever’s happening? Are we able to enjoy it as it is?”

When we go about life, most of the time we judge everything, “This person’s good,” “This person’s bad,” “This person’s evil,” “This person’s not,” “This is beautiful or ugly.” Like, there are so many things that happen. But when we walk in nature, like how many of us are saying, “This flower is ugly. This flower is like beautiful,” or, like, “This tree is crooked or what”?

Like, we just observe and enjoy nature as it is rather than constantly pick apart every single thing that we think is wrong with this tree. As soon as we do that, that’s when we suffer. So, nature is a great way to reset because of that and it brings us back to our true nature, ironically, of just being aware and giving our full attention to someone without judging them. That’s what the basis of love is, unconditional love, which is to fully accept someone as they are without wanting to change them, without wanting them just to be something different.

Full acceptance of that is where peace comes from. This not only goes for people, but for situations, anything. That is the root of unconditional love. And use that thought experiment for yourself. Like, when do you feel most loved by someone? When they’re constantly judging you, nagging you, saying you should do this, saying you should be different, you should be better, you should be doing any of these things, or when they fully accept you as you are without judging? That is the goal of everything.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that. My children would say, when we do hugs and kisses in flying blanket mode.

Joseph Nguyen
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
But it falls into a subcategory of what you’re describing. I like that notion about the narration that we’re just doing it all the time, and it might not even seem too intense, like, “I’m such a stupid idiot.” But even just like, “Oh, oh, oh, the sun is kind of in my eyes. Oh, it’s kind of hot. Like, oh, I’m getting tired.”

Like, there you are in nature, you might not be condemning the tree for being crooked, but we are narrating and judging – well, I am often – experiences they’re in, in terms of like the air temperature or the illumination that is not perfectly aligned to the preferences I have in that moment.

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, and that’s where all the suffering comes from, is just what we wish would happen, what we want the world to be. But peace comes from letting go of what we wish everything would be and accept it for how it actually is. And, yes, same goes for anything in life, people, even ourselves. In AA, like one of the first steps is acceptance. The five stages of grief, acceptance is what you’re trying to go for.

And in CBT, acceptance of whatever emotions we’re feeling is also a core component of the whole process. So, at the end of it all, like all these different modalities are pointing to the same thing, which is, “Can I let go of the judgment that I’m having of whatever is happening and going on?” Once we’re able to let go of that thinking mind, the fear-based mind and the judgmental mind, then we’re able to find a little peace.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you said that we have the option to stop the narration, and I am a frequent Audible listener who likes to pause my audiobooks. And I understand you’ve got a little acronym you can walk us through.

Joseph Nguyen
Yes, exactly. So, this acronym, I tried to make it as actionable as possible in terms of, I mean, what we’re doing is letting go of the judgments. That’s the whole purpose of this. And so, this makes the act of letting go a little bit more tangible. So, the first letter in the acronym is P, which is pause. So, pause and take deep breaths, and you don’t need to get fancy with it. Just take five deep breaths. There’s no specific way you need to do it.

But it’s been scientifically proven that taking deep breaths allows us to lower our heart rate, to regulate our emotions, and to come back to center. So, just do that in the beginning of anything, because it’s really hard to regulate or do anything or make decisions or come back to yourself when we’re in a fight or flight mode. Next is A, which is ask ourselves, “Is this thinking useful?” Just like the other psychologists you mentioned before, like, “Is this thinking making me feel the way that I want?” If not, the next step is U, which is understand that you have the ability to let that thinking or judgment go. We always have that power. We may not be able to control our thoughts, but we can always control our thinking about the thoughts, and therein lies our entire power to change our experience of life.

S is, say and repeat the mantra, “Thinking is the root cause of suffering.” You can use any mantra in this matter. Another one, for example, would be, “I let go and choose peace.” Any mantra rooted in truth will work, and it needs to be short and memorable. What mantras do is that it’s very difficult to think of two things simultaneously.

So, what it does is it focuses your attention on this one thing, which means you can’t be thinking about the future or ruminating about the past. So, it forces focus and attention on something that is true. So, repeating that for maybe 30 seconds to a minute is really all you need, and that will slow the thinking mind. It will calm things down significantly.

That’s the basis of Transcendental Meditation as well, what a lot of the Tibetan monks use to go beyond the mind and to achieve oneness with the universe. But we take it here and you’re able to use it in real time.

Then E, the last step is to experience your emotions fully without resistance. So, we’re not trying to bypass the emotions by just not thinking about it. We’re actually removing the judgment of the emotions because what we resist persists. So, if we are resisting the anxiety, it usually gets worse, which is why a lot of times, when someone has a panic attack, they’re much more prone to more panic attacks simply because that’s how, it’s just like self-fulfilling, so to speak.

It’s like once we experience something and don’t want it to happen, we just put up a wall and just constantly resist it. But in physics, an object in motion will stay in motion, right? But also, for every force, there’s an equal and opposite force happening. So, if you have this force of an emotion and you’re resisting the emotion, that emotion is going to constantly be there and it’s going to stay stuck unless it passes through your system.

Anything that is stuck creates a significant amount of suffering. So, for a slightly more comical and light-hearted example is, like, if you eat a lot of food and it doesn’t pass through your system, what happens? Like, a week, a month passes, it’s going to be very painful and it’s going to cause all sorts of issues.

The same thing is true for our thoughts and emotions. The more that we hold on to our thoughts and don’t let them pass through, the more it’s going to cause us a lot of emotional suffering. Thoughts, emotions, all these things are transient and meant to pass through us, just like water flowing through a river.

As soon as a river is dammed up, that’s when wildlife begins to dwindle, fish begin to die, all these things start to happen. But as soon as the river is able to flow, that’s when life begins to flourish. That is the same thing for our own lives. So, letting thoughts and emotions pass through us without resistance. So, the way to do that is to create space within ourselves, to honor and hold the emotions, and to not judge them.

See them as another entity, like our inner child, or even one of our own children, and to hold them within our hearts, and to give them space to be there, without judging them, without saying, “You shouldn’t be here. Why are you here again?” That’s what we say to these emotions a lot of times, like, “Why are you still here, anger?” And we’re angry at the anger, and so it just compounds.

But as soon as we say, “Oh, you’re welcome here. You’re not an enemy. It’s okay.” As soon as you give children space, time, and attention, things begin to settle and we’re able to regulate. The same thing is true for all of our emotions and it passes so much more quickly when we’re doing this rather than kind of putting up a wall. So that’s the whole entire process.

Pause, take deep breaths. A, ask yourself, “Is this thinking helpful or useful?” U, which is understand you have the ability to let that thinking go. S, which is say and repeat the mantra. And E, which is experience your emotions fully without resistance.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. And if I may put some numbers into this, so you had a mantra, I counted, it was about seven words. Is that around the length that we’re thinking about? Like, if you push it to 20, it’s outside mantra zone?

Joseph Nguyen
Probably. It just creates so much more thinking and you’re probably going to have to try to remember, “Am I saying it right? Did I forget a word?” And you’re trying to make it as simple as possible so that you don’t have to overthink it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then with experience, I think when I’ve resisted, historically, it’s been almost out of a fear that, “If I begin to experience this sadness, this sorrow, this grieving at this deeply unfortunate thing that has occurred, then will it swallow me? Will it persist for a long time and impact the things I need to do this day, this week, this month?”

And so, I can sometimes push away. But you say with the water flowing situation, and that which we resist persists, we are better off experiencing it fully. I mean, Joseph, for those fellow aversive pushers, away-ers…

Joseph Nguyen
Master push-up-ers, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
…how long are we in for a rough emotional experience if we allow it to hang out?

Joseph Nguyen
I will say shorter than if you’re resisting it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Joseph Nguyen
So, the irony in it is that, when we’re pushing it away, we think that we’re not dealing with it but we’re still suffering. We’re constantly thinking about it, we’re wishing it were different, we’re ruminating on it constantly, but what we don’t understand is that when we just allow it to be there, that it passes so much more quickly.

I think neuroscience is saying now that it takes about 90 seconds for an emotion to be regulated in our bodies. The only reason why it’s prolonged most of the time is that we begin ruminating on the event or judging the situation that happened, and it resets that time period. So, we’ll go 90 seconds, and right before that, we think about it again, we’ll judge it again, and it keeps prolonging the cycle.

And so, it only takes a few minutes to do this and to let go, and it’s not like the entire emotion will go away, but the intensity of the emotion will be drastically reduced than what it was when we were resisting. And, over time, as you build the muscle of emotional resiliency and emotional regulation, it becomes a little bit easier to do every single time. And the threshold in which we become overwhelmed is significantly expanded, so we can take on a lot more in life.

We’re able to do a lot more. We’re able to endure a lot of these events with a lot more grace and a lot more love. But, yeah, it’s definitely scary to kind of allow these emotions to come in because we think that we might not be able to handle it. We might crumble under the emotion. But you have to ask yourself, like we were saying before, like, “Am I my thoughts? Am I this emotion?”

And think about all the difficult times and trauma that you’ve been through, and all the trauma, like, you’re still here. So, I mean, you’re greater than every single emotion that you’ve ever experienced. And the same is true now and it will ever, and it will be true forever because those things are not us.

Pete Mockaitis
Joseph, beautiful stuff. Could you share any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, I would run micro-experiments with yourself. Like, you actually don’t have to believe anything that I’m saying, ironically, like the book title. Test it out for yourself. See if it’s true, if thinking is the root cause of your emotional suffering. And the way that you can test this out is to try to suspend judgment, negative judgment about yourself, your own thoughts, your own emotions, external things, people, circumstances.

See if you can suspend judgment for about seven days. That’s it. You don’t have to do a month. You don’t have to do a year. Just see if you can let go of the judgments that your mind is creating, for seven days and see how you feel afterwards. If it significantly improves your emotional well-being, awesome! Continue doing it.

And if it doesn’t, that’s completely okay, and you can find another modality that might work for you. But at the very least, try it and see what happens. And it is only through our own lived experience that you know what truth is, rather than just taking someone’s word for it. So, that’s what I would encourage everyone to do, and just see for yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Joseph Nguyen
One of my favorite quotes is actually in the book, which is from Jonathan Safran Foer, which is, “I think, I think, I think. I’ve thought myself out of happiness one million times, but never once into it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, very good. Very good. Thank you. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Joseph Nguyen
The neuroscience study that I was alluding to before, I don’t know exactly what experiment it was.

But they were studying about how long it takes for our emotions to actually pass through our systems, and it was about 90 seconds, which was mind-boggling to me because I thought it would take, you know, like multiple minutes or at least like, I don’t know, 10 minutes, for like, if you’re angry of something, like it feels like it takes way longer than 90 seconds.

So, that was a profound shift in me to realize that, “Oh, my gosh, like it is possible to let go of a lot of these emotions quite quickly.” And it’s actually important to follow this. You don’t have to follow this process, specifically, but you can follow any process, but it’s really important to do it in real time as you’re going about your day.

So, this process is, if you’re experiencing something in traffic, or your boss says something, or your parents say something, or your friends says something that creates a negative emotional reaction within you, it’s important to use the process then rather than only use it in the morning or in the evening like meditating, right?

That way you are actually strengthening your emotional resiliency throughout the entire day. It’s a little bit easier to find peace when you’re alone in your room and it’s dark, your blindfolds are on, there’s like Zen music, right? It’s like a little bit easier to find peace there, but the true test is, “Are you able to find peace while also, like let’s say your boss is screaming at your face, or making fun of you, or your friends are doing something that you don’t really approve of, or your parents are criticizing you in front of other family members?

That’s the time that you’re truly tested for, if you’re able to find peace. And this is something that you can use during those times rather than you need to bust out like a 30-minute meditation just to find a little bit of alleviation. So, that’s one other thing I would do, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And a favorite book?

Joseph Nguyen
This one’s very interesting, maybe slightly controversial, but it currently is Outwitting the Devil by Napoleon Hill.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Joseph Nguyen
I like to use this particular framework on just when I’m doing work because I have issues, a lot of times. Just like procrastinating like most people or just putting off things that I know I need to be doing. And one of the most effective things that I’ve done is to follow the SPA methodology, which is just, if I’m overwhelmed by something, just take the next smallest possible action, so SPA, and doing that.

So, if it’s, “I need to write another book,” that’s a pretty big task, pretty scary, daunting, and it’s like, “Am I able to bust out a whole book in this one session?” Now, that’s typically what the mind thinks of. But if I break it down to the smallest possible action, like, “Am I able to just open the Word document? Can I just do that?” And I’m like, “Yeah, I can definitely click on Notion and open it up. I can definitely do that.” And if I still can’t do that, “Can I just sit at the computer desk?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes.

Joseph Nguyen
So just keep breaking it down.

Pete Mockaitis
“Sit up from the couch.”

Joseph Nguyen
Yeah, sometimes it’s hard, right? Sometimes it’s really hard. And so, it’s okay if we need to break it down into those baby steps, but that works wonders for me. So, it’s like, “Can I write one sentence?” And when I write one sentence, I’m going to want to write another sentence, like I’m just going to go.

And, lo and behold, there’s like a couple dozen sentences, a couple hundred words pass, and that was way more progress than if I force myself sit down and write my book. That’s a big task. So, smallest possible action is what I like to default to when I am frozen in procrastination or analysis paralysis.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear it quoted back to you often?

Joseph Nguyen
Our emotions don’t come from external events, but from our own thinking about those events. That is something that people just didn’t really realize, and so it’s like a massive epiphany moment for them. Other ones are just like, “I didn’t realize that I could just stop judging. I had no idea I could just not listen to that incessant negative critic in the back of our minds, and that I could just be and just be present. I don’t have to be thinking about something else or doing something else. I can let go of whatever that incessant chatter is, and to finally find a little bit of peace.”

Yeah, that big epiphany was like, oh, yeah, during the times that we are happiest, like we’re not really thinking about anything else, or ruminating on anything. We’re just there, fully engrossed by the moment. And so, those are probably like some of the biggest nuggets that people have gotten.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to get in touch or learn more, where would you point them?

Joseph Nguyen
Probably, I would say my website and newsletter, so JosephNguyen.org, J-O-S-E-P-H N-G-U-Y-E-N.org. You’ll be able to find like my newsletter there, sign up for it. I do have a YouTube channel. I don’t post that often but a lot of the content there is evergreen. All my socials are just itsjosephnguyen, I-T-S and then Joseph Nguyen. Those are probably the best places to find me, but email is where you’ll be able to be up-to-date on any new projects I’m working on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Joseph Nguyen
Let go of the fear of being judged. The more that we’re afraid of being ourselves, to be awesome at our jobs, the less effective we’ll be. And sometimes being ourselves will ruffle a few feathers. People will judge us one way or the other, even if we’re playing conservatively and not really showing that much at work.

People are still judging us anyway. So, we might as well be judged and criticized for being who we truly are rather than masquerading ourselves behind something else. And the more that you’re able to be yourself, the more awesome you’re going to be at your job, the more that you’re able to lean into your own gifts, your own talents, your abilities. All of that is usually held back if we’re afraid of what other people are thinking.

So, stand up for yourself, do what you believe is best for the work that you’re doing, and definitely defend it, and to not just let it be pushed over. Because at the end of the day, if you’re coming from a place of love, generosity, true selflessness, and wanting to do the best that you possibly can, there’s no shame in that at all. So, if you’re going to be criticized, definitely be criticized for doing what you believe is right, rather than hiding behind and playing it small.

Pete Mockaitis
Joseph, beautiful. Thank you.

Joseph Nguyen
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s been such a pleasure and so much fun with you. I love your energy.

Pete Mockaitis
Jon, welcome!

Jon Rosemberg
Hi, Pete, it’s good to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about thriving. You got a whole guide to thriving, so let’s discuss that exactly. But first, could you maybe contrast? You talk about thriving versus survival mode. Could you paint a little bit of a picture of what each feels like in practice?

Jon Rosemberg
For sure. And, Pete, have you ever felt like you’re in survival mode?

Pete Mockaitis
I think the answer is yes.

Jon Rosemberg
Yes. And what does that feel like?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s not pleasant, you know? It’s sort of like I’m just trying to get through the day, and the responsibilities, and the stuff, and the calendar, and the to-do list. It’s a little bit harried, hurried, rushed, stressed, maybe elevated heart rate and more.

Jon Rosemberg
That’s a beautiful definition of survival mode. And what I especially loved about your definition was that initial exhale, the “Ahh!” So, yes, that is survival mode. And survival mode, evolutionarily speaking, is a highly adaptive mode to be in.

A few thousand years ago, if you were in the savannah and you heard, you know, like a rustle in the bushes, going into survival mode was really helpful because it allows us to focus all of our energy on what we need to do to survive. And it can be really, really helpful.

However, today, most of the challenges and threats that we face are not physical, they are psychological. So, survival mode sometimes gets triggered in moments that may not necessarily be the most helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And that picture is nice. I just recently saw a Kurzgesagt video, they have these amazing animations, all about stress and it painted that very picture in terms of, you know, a beast in the wilderness and what that’s like. And so, I’ve heard that kind of a storyline, if you will, before about, “Oh, in the ancient times, this is very helpful, and now it’s almost counterproductive for us.”

But I’m wondering, you know, we feel what we feel. Jon, to what extent do we even have control over that? I mean, stuff happens. Emotions, reactions naturally flow from those things. So, to what extent can we have mastery versus we are a victim of these circumstances?

Jon Rosemberg
I love that question because it goes exactly to the heart of the book. The capacity to make intentional choices, which I call in the book agency, that realization that even in the most-dire of circumstances, we still have a choice, is the foundation for going from survival mode to thriving.

What is thriving? Most people think that thriving equals success. So, I’m going to say this very clearly. Thriving is not success. How do we measure success? We measure it with money, power, and reputation. These are three things that if you see somebody who’s got a lot of them, you say this is a successful person, right?

Thriving, on the other hand, it’s about agency, so the capacity to make intentional choices. It’s about belonging, i.e., being able to connect, to have meaningful social connections with other people. And it’s about meaning. It’s about seeing something in life that gives you a sense that your life matters, and that the people around you matter, and the way you navigate this world matters. So, it’s slightly different.

Now, I want to be very clear. I’m not arguing against success, because I think success is very helpful and very useful. And, by the way, I want success just as much as the next guy. What I’m suggesting here is that, maybe there’s a bit more of a balance that we can have between what success is and what thriving is. And that, in that balance, in that nuance, there may be a lot of well-being for all of us.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that sounds pleasant. Could you perhaps share some studies, research, or case studies associated with folks who made the leap from frequently being in a survival mode to doing the thrive thing regularly?

Jon Rosemberg
So, last year, there was a study published at Oxford that studied, I think it was 1,200 companies. And what they wanted to understand was the correlation between the well-being of employees, i.e., thriving, and stock market performance, the value of the company. And what they discovered is that the top 100 companies that had the highest levels of well-being outperformed the S&P 500 by 11% on average.

That’s a really compelling business case for anybody to say, “My business is going to outperform the S&P because, partly, it’s one of the variables,” and I’m implying causality now. This is just a correlational study, but I think it’s still a very compelling data point.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly, I could see you might argue it both ways, “Well, yeah, well, it’s easy for them because they have so much ample cash flow and appreciation, etc. They can afford to invest in their employees.” But I suppose it is also the case that there are large flourishing companies that are big in revenue and profit, and yet are low on thriving, and could see all the more goodness with more thriving. Can you paint a chain for how more thriving means more profit?

Jon Rosemberg
Exactly. Well, what we know is that when we’re thriving, we can lean into our agency. So, this capacity to make intentional choices. And thriving usually means that we’re in this space where we’re calm and we can think more clearly. And that drives innovation. And we know that innovation is a great way to create value.

It also drives better social connection and stronger social connection. And it’s interesting because, Pete, if there was a medicine out there that increased your survival rate by 50%, decreased your risk of cardiovascular disease by 29%, decreased your risk of stroke by 32%, decreased depression and increased your well-being, if there was a drug that did all of those things for you, would you take it?

Pete Mockaitis
Sounds good, sure. It could have side effects, but looking good, yeah.

Jon Rosemberg
No side effects. The drug is social connection. So, when we are thriving, we are more capable of connecting with other folks. And that social connection is what creates great organizations. You know, what I learned, I spent over two and a half decades in the business world, climbing the corporate ladder as fast as I could.

And one of the things that I learned too late in my career, I might say, is that there are two types of value that you create at work. One of them is productive value. So, this is how good you are at your job. Can you create an Excel spreadsheet that beats everybody else? Or, today, can you work with AI better than everybody else? Can you create a project plan? Can you deliver a project on time and on budget? All of these things are productive value.

The other value that sometimes gets really overlooked, especially for folks that are getting into leadership positions, is relational value, is the ability to create those relationships and those connections that allow big groups of people to work together and do really amazing things together.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that sounds super. Can you share, when it comes to social connection, what’s the state of play with regard to humans, professionals, workers, and social connection?

Jon Rosemberg
Well, Surgeon General for the US, Vivek Murthy, published a report a couple of years ago where he spoke about, or he described the loneliness epidemic. We know that there’s people more lonely today than ever before.

And if you think about this, Pete, today, somebody who’s 18, 20 years old can get a job, and they can rent their apartment. And if they don’t want to, they don’t have to see anybody else for the rest of their lives, right? You could order food in, you could get everything that you need delivered to your doorstep, you get a paycheck working remotely.

So, technology has given us a lot of advantages, but it has also created certain gaps in places where we, otherwise, had to interact with people. So, there is a loneliness epidemic out there. And one of the ideas that I present in the book is this notion that when we’re thriving, it’s easier to connect with others. And when we connect with others, that has a ripple effect.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so the social connection contributes to thriving, and the thriving contributes to social connection.

Jon Rosemberg
You got it. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Kind of like a circular, I guess, virtuous cycle up, or a doom cycle down.

Jon Rosemberg
I love that you just use that, Pete, because that’s exactly how I describe it in the book, as a spiral. There’s a spiral from survival mode to thriving. And sometimes we’re up and sometimes we’re down. And I think one point that you made at the beginning of our conversation, which is that, sometimes, external circumstances are outside our control. And that happens often, right?

We get laid off or we get fired from a job or, you know, a disease, we get sick. Like, there are many things that happen. What I’m trying to suggest here is that even in the worst of circumstances, and by the way, one of my teachers, I would call him, is Viktor Frankl, who wrote a great book called Man’s Search for Meaning, and Viktor Frankl was in concentration camps in Nazi Germany.

And it was him who argued in that book that even within all that suffering, he discovered a place where he could choose his attitude. And what he noticed was that the people who survived that horrible situation were those who could find meaning in their suffering and were those who could see a different perspective of what they were experiencing. Not the strongest ones, not the ones who had the most muscle, the ones who were taller or bigger, the ones who had more money. It was the people who found meaning.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and fun fact, I believe Man’s Search for Meaning is, when I ask about favorite things, comes up the most often as favorite book, favorite quote. So, it’s a powerful book and a beautiful one. And so, in practice, let’s say stuff happens and we’re freaking out, what do we do in the moment?

Jon Rosemberg
So, I went deep into the research and tried to understand, “How do we create more agency? If agency is the capacity to make intentional choices, supported by the belief that those choices matter and have an impact on the world, how do we increase that?”

And as I reviewed the research and I reviewed all the fantastic work that has been done by scientists over the past two and a half decades, because this is a relatively new topic, this topic of thriving, in science, I mean, philosophers have been talking about it for thousands of years. So, there were three things that came up that seemed really, really important. And I summarized them in an acronym, AIR.

And AIR stands for A for awareness, I for inquiry, and R for reframing. And when we are faced with a difficult situation or a difficult emotion or a negative thought, using AIR as a practice, can be a really powerful way to develop the skill that is agency and go a little bit more from survival mode into thriving.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, awareness, inquiry, reframing. Could you share with us, what that can look like in practice?

Jon Rosemberg
Of course. So, my youngest son, who’s nine, went to summer camp earlier this year. But three days before going to summer camp, he broke his arm and he had a cast all the way up to his shoulder. So, while his friends were jumping in the lake, he was playing with a Rubik’s Cube. And I’m going to try and use this Rubik’s Cube to explain a little bit how AIR works.

So, when we’re going through a difficult moment, it feels like the Rubik’s Cube is right next to our face, right next to our eye, and we can only see one of the little squares, right? You’ve probably heard people say, “I feel like I’m seeing red, right?” Like, we’re actually just seeing one color, one square of the Rubik’s Cube.

What awareness does is it allows us to create some distance from the situation. It allows us to actually notice that, “Hmm, okay, what’s happening here is not just red. Red is actually just one square amongst nine other squares. And if I actually start kind of looking at the Rubik’s Cube, I can see that it has six sides and each side has nine squares. So now I have a lot more information.” That’s what awareness does for us.

Then we go into inquiry. And inquiry is actually getting to understand what the situation looks like. And that’s asking a lot of non-judgmental, curious questions about the situation. And that means, basically, it’s like playing around with the Rubik’s Cube, just figuring out the different formulas and the different combinations that you can see in a Rubik’s Cube.

And reframing is when you find a combination that works for you. And that might be solving the Rubik’s Cube or it might be something different, but it’s a combination that works for you in the moment. So that’s a short, brief description of how AIR works.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so understood, with the Rubik’s Cube analogy, you can visualize that and notice that you could be way zoomed in and that’s not so helpful. Could you walk us through that as applied to a situation?

Jon Rosemberg
So, after two and a half decades in the corporate world, I decided to go into a startup, and we did great. We raised a Series B of $150 million. The company was growing at double digits every month. We were, as the kids would say, crushing it. And as we raised this money, I flew to LA to buy some new facilities because we were expanding the business to LA.

And when I flew back, I got hit with COVID and I was on a call with the technical team about some sort of technical stuff, and the call got really heated up and I was deep, deep into survival mode.

Pete Mockaitis
Heated up, tell me more, Jon. Were they pointing the finger at you?

Jon Rosemberg
They were pointing the finger, or at least that’s how I interpreted it in the moment. That was the interpretation. I was so close to the situation, I was seeing red. So, what I did is I shut off my laptop and turned off my phone. And in that moment, I was able to gain some awareness. I got some distance from the situation and I said, “Goodness gracious, am I angry right now?” I noticed the heat rising in my body, my chest got tight, my breathing got shallow, my shoulders got really tense.

So, I heard my kids playing in the basement, and I went downstairs to the basement and they were sitting on the floor playing with Legos. So, I sat on the floor with them and I started playing with them for about an hour. And as I was doing that, I started, well, number one, I was present with them. I was able to actually sit with them and share with them, which is something that I hadn’t done for months.

So, that experience, to me, it allowed me to find a little bit of thriving in that deep, deep state of survival mode. After that, I went and sat on my chair and I started reflecting in one of my favorite chairs, and I started reflecting on the situation. And the reframing for me was, in that moment, it was, I had two kids because I wanted to be a dad, and I’m not actually being a dad. I’m present, like they see me at breakfast, they see me at dinner, but I’m not physically present, but I’m not present with them. And that was really, really challenging.

So, Adriana walked in, my wife, and she said, “So, are you okay?” And I said, “I’m done, I think I’m done.” And within two weeks, I decided to unwind myself from that job and to walk away. So, my reframe in that moment was seeing the other option that I hadn’t seen before. Because for the longest time as I was working, I said, “If I quit this job, I’ll be living under a bridge in two weeks.” And that felt very real to me.

In that moment, I realized, “Well, what’s the point of all of this that I’m doing if I cannot be present for the people that I love and that I want to be with?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, the awareness of, “Hey, I’m getting really angry. It might be wise to go do something else.” And then you’re inquiring, asking those questions and then reframing the prior belief that you had, and sort of seeing new things come from it. Understood.

What’s interesting with regard to the inquiry, can you share a few more of those specific questions? Like, “What’s the point of this?” What are some more questions you were inquiring there?

Jon Rosemberg
Yeah, so, “What are my options right now? What’s important to me? What are my values? What is it that I want to do with my life? What does this look like for me if I continue down this path for the next two years, three years, five years? How is this impacting my health? How is this impacting my relationships? How is this impacting my sleep?”

So, all of these questions, asked in a non-judgmental way, and what I mean by that is that we have to actually be curious about it. Because if I’m asking a question and I already have the answer, it’s not really a question, is it? So, we want to challenge ourselves to do this.

Now in that moment, it was a process that I did internally as a result of burnout and a very difficult experience. But in day-to-day life, we can do this in partnership with other people, with our friends, with a coach, with whatever it is that people that are around us, some people do journaling. This exploration can be a really powerful way to get to know ourselves better and then to make decisions that are more agentic.

Pete Mockaitis
And I like what you had to say about the genuine curiosity because I think it’s quite possible in that state, some of your questions can sound like, “What’s their problem? Why do I always have to deal with this bull crap? Why is this happening to me?” etc. Like, any number of questions that are not guided by a wholesome curiosity, but rather just stoke the rage beast.

Jon Rosemberg
You got it. And often, we tend to focus on things that are outside our locus of control. Instead of focusing on what we can change on what’s under our capacity to influence, we focus on what everybody else is doing. And, unfortunately, it’s really hard to change other people. Trust me, I’ve tried for many years and it’s very difficult to change other people. But we do have the prerogative to change ourselves and to grow in the way that feels most authentic to us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us another example of awareness, inquiry, and reframing in action that don’t result in a full exit, but rather being able to better deal with a current situation?

Jon Rosemberg
Yeah, what I love most about that question, Pete, is that you are hitting the nail on the head on the spectrum of agency, right? So, very low agency would be, “I have no choice here.” And if there is a moment in your life where you say, “I have no choice here,” number one, you are likely in survival mode. And, number two, there’s an open door there to practice AIR, to practice awareness, inquiry, and reframing.

Then if we go a little bit higher on the spectrum of agency, you could say, “Well, I can stay or I can leave, right? So, I only have two choices here. I either have to walk away or I can stay in my job.” If you had really high agency, once we’ve really developed agency, then you start seeing, instead of black and white, you start seeing a rainbow of options and opportunities in front of you.

So, you could say, “Well, I could stay and modify my job, change my hours, go to part-time, change my boss, move to a different division, whatever that looks like. Or, I could leave and go to another job or rest or, you know, paint for, I don’t know, whatever it is.”

And I understand that for a lot of people, there’s actually not a choice available to them, right? Because if you have to pay the rent and you are living paycheck to paycheck, this doesn’t necessarily happen. And this is why the developing agency in the moment is so important.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Whenever I hear the phrase, “I have to,” or, “I can’t,” I get skeptical. And so, you know, and maybe I am on the autistic spectrum and I take things super literally at times. But I think, “Is that really true?” And I’m thinking about the book, Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg.

Jon Rosemberg
Marshall Rosenberg. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And he really brings up some points, like even if you think you’re stuck, it’s kind of wild what you can do. And he gives an example of, he thought, “Well, I have to keep…” He said, “I don’t like paying taxes because they’re supporting…” at the time, I think, the Vietnam War. And he was against the war. And he said, “Well, I guess I have to pay taxes because, you know, I mean, that’s the law and I’m a citizen.”

And he said, “Well, you know what? I suppose if I didn’t have income, I wouldn’t have to pay taxes.” And so, he made some dramatic changes. And then he also challenges teachers who say, “Well, I have to do all this frequent testing of the students because it’s required by the district, and that’s just a part of my job.” And he’s like, “Well, you also have the option of changing your job.”

So, it’s a more accurate framing of the situation is, “I need to do this testing for my students frequently if I want to retain my job and my income here. So that is my choice. Do I choose to play the game and maintain my job and my income here? Or do I choose something else? Well, I guess I am going to keep my job here.” But even working through that process contributes to more of the thriving feelings.

Jon Rosemberg
Absolutely. And I love so much that you brought up Marshall Rosenberg, because I think this is exactly what he’s arguing for in these examples, is this idea of reframing, changing the framing of the situation. And we get to do that. And one of the important concepts here is that we tend to buy into these absolute truths, right, that something has to be true.

And one of the interesting things in science that I don’t think has become as widely popular as it should be, is that science thrives on dissent. It thrives on challenging. If you’re a scientist that agrees with all of his, hers, their peers, you are highly unlikely to succeed. The whole point is that we want this type of creative dissent.

So, when somebody presents you with a premise, is there an opportunity to do a lot of inquiry and challenge that premise and figure out if it’s really true? So, one good example that has worked really well is a lot of people say, “Well, but two plus two is four.” Well, but two plus two is not always four, right? There’s an axiom that tells us that the first number is zero, and then you add one and it’s one and then two and then three and then four. That’s the axiom that we, a lot of us do math with or arithmetic.

But if you’re looking at a clock, right, after 23:00, so if you say 23 plus two, it’s not 25, it’s one, right? So, it’s a different axiom that we’re using. So, what I’m trying to present here is that we get to challenge the things that we believe to be true. And this is a uniquely human capacity and it’s incredibly powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And then, you get me thinking in terms of, well, if our objective is to get to four, there’s many ways that we might achieve the getting to four. And perhaps addition is not even the operation that we’re after in a given situation.

Jon Rosemberg
You got it. So, we can come at things from different angles once we have awareness. Once we move that Rubik’s Cube a little bit away from our face, we can actually start exploring all of the angles. And it’s a practice, right? It sounds easy when I say awareness, inquiry, and reframing, right? It sounds so simple. But many of us spend years, if not decades, trying to bring more awareness to our lives.

So, mindfulness is something that can work to bring more awareness, and a mindfulness practice, being able to be present in the moment. Those are some of the things that we can do in order to hone our skill of awareness. And then inquiry, learning to ask good questions, that’s a difficult skill. That requires a lot of practice, right? And then reframing is actually seeing different angles. And all of those things require, they’re like a muscle, right? And if we go to the gym to get buff, we can practice this to gain more agency.

Pete Mockaitis
And one place you advocate practicing this is by examining our beliefs and seeing if there’s some limiting beliefs. Can you expand on this?

Jon Rosemberg
Yeah, so beliefs are like lenses that we have over our eyes, and they kind of filter the world for us, right? There’s lots of evidence to suggest that beliefs are so powerful that they can even change the way in which we react to pain.

For example, the placebo effect, and this has been documented many, many times that when you’re in pain, you can take a placebo, and they tell you that it’s pain medication and your pain actually decreases. So, our beliefs are very, very powerful filters with which we navigate the world.

One of the things in the work that I do coaching clients is trying to name the belief, right? So, in my case, I said, “I believe that if I walk away from this job, I’m going to be living under a bridge in less than two weeks and I’m not going to be able to pay my mortgage, etc.” I had to challenge that belief and say, “Well, is that actually true? Or, is there a different way to look at this belief?”

And I said, “Well, I have friends, I have a family, I have a social support network, I know people will help me out if I can’t have income, I have some money in the bank, or I can move to a smaller place.” So, there are all of these things. The moment you take that belief and you challenge the belief, then you can step into a world of options. Then you step into that rainbow of options as opposed to seeing the world in just white, just black, or black and white only.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. Can you give us an example of some other limiting beliefs that you’ve seen folks successfully challenge and have great results on the other side?

Jon Rosemberg
I think the toughest belief to challenge, and I struggle with this every day, and I think it’s one of the big reasons why I wrote the book, and it’s a true line in the book, is the belief that, “I am not good enough.” The flip side of that is the belief that I have to prove myself.

Because we live in this system where productivity defines value, productivity equals value, I’ve asked dozens of clients the question, “What would your value be if suddenly you could not produce anymore?” And people are stumped. It’s really hard to respond to that question, “What happens if I can’t produce?” “Well, I could still talk my way through something, or whatever it is,” but you cannot produce.

So, challenging the belief that our worth is tied to our productivity is very liberating work, and it’s very challenging work, because this is a deeply ingrained belief.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so walk us through the process of that challenging and what might come out the other side.

Jon Rosemberg
I think it’s sitting with it. The first thing that we do is creating awareness, naming it, “Is this a belief that you’re buying into? Do you buy into the belief that if you don’t produce, you’re not good enough?” Pause for a second and just notice, “Is this something that sounds true to you? If it does, then get really curious about it.”

So, “Where does this belief come from? Whose voice do I hear in my head when I say that I believe this? What has this belief, how has it served me in my life? What has it done for me?” In my case, that belief allowed me to climb the corporate ladder ruthlessly for decades, right? So, it served me really well in many, many ways.

And, eventually, I came to the reframing of saying, “There’s fundamental value in just existing in just being a human. We are a wonder of nature.” Think about it. You know, earth has been around for what? Four billion years? And we’re here, you and I, Pete, having this conversation. That in itself, it’s a miracle. We’re sitting in this, you know, one galaxy out of, I think, there’s like two trillion of them in the universe, and this universe continues to expand. So, it’s really magical the fact that we exist.

So, is that fundamental value? And what challenging that belief did for me was allow me to give myself the space, for example, to end up thinking about the ideas that, eventually, I decided that I wanted to put into a book. So, I started to question. It’s existentialism. You start questioning why we’re here and what does that mean?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is a powerful belief to look at directly, and we covered this on episode 500 with Victor Cheng, talking about Building Unshakable Confidence, and having the belief that I am valuable or worthwhile simply because I exist. And you could see that in wisdom traditions, or religion, Christianity being made in the image and likeness of God, or the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

It’s interesting because it’s an idea that I purport to believe, and I like to believe it on my best days, and yet I do feel some discomfort. If I imagine a universe in which I am, say, in a vegetative state at a hospital, I am existing, but I am not doing or “adding value,” I sometimes think, “Well, yes, I value just because I’m existent, I am a human being.”

And other times it doesn’t feel that way, that the belief doesn’t feel true. So, yeah, no pressure, Jon, but how do we deal with that one?

Jon Rosemberg
I don’t know. I don’t know. This is a profound existential question that you’re asking, Pete. And I think the exercise of just questioning it is a pathway to thriving. Just being able, for a moment, to hold that notion that you have fundamental value just by existing, and just believing that 0.00001% in your life, I think that in itself, it’s a gift.

Listen, Pete, I struggle with it every day. You know, I’ve been doing this work, I went back to school and learned psychology so I could challenge that belief. I’ve read lots of papers and lots of books trying to challenge this belief, and I don’t have a clear answer. I don’t think there’s a recipe.

I actually, as a matter of fact, what I would suggest, and this is one of the things that I did in the book, and it was hard for me to find a publisher because a lot of the publishers kept telling me, “Jon, you have to be more prescriptive. People want to know exactly what they need to do.”

And I kept saying, “Well, I’m writing about agency. If I’m telling people that the whole point is that you learn what’s right for you and that you have to develop or you can develop, you don’t have to do anything, but you can develop this muscle that gives you access to thriving in your life, how am I going to sit there and tell you exactly how you do it?” I don’t have a recipe for it. I think we each have to find our own way through.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s funny, where my brain is going is thinking that I have value just by existing even in that, you know, comatose state, because by providing an opportunity for others to be of service and reflect upon their gifts, their blessings, their capabilities that is of value and beneficial. And yet, I could see I’m already drifting into territories, like, “Well, then that’s not intrinsic.” It’s like, “It’s what I’m doing for other people by doing nothing.”

Jon Rosemberg
Exactly. Yeah, it’s a tough idea to grasp, especially because the system where we are living is built on this belief of productivity equals value, right? So, it’s really hard to think outside of that unless, you know, maybe we go to meditate in some mountain for 20 years, maybe we can access that. That’s not my choice.

Agentically speaking, that’s not something that I want to do, and I do want to be able to sit there sometimes with the discomfort of feeling like I’m not good enough or that I have to prove myself. And as I’m sitting with that discomfort, having a small window where I can challenge it, and I can say, “Well, maybe I do have fundamental value. Maybe I do have intrinsic value just for existing.” And that in itself can be quite comforting. At least it has been for me. And also, anxiety-inducing.

Pete Mockaitis
One perspective I like to bring to this is, as I think about my children when I watch them sleep, they’re beautiful, adorable, I love them, and they are doing nothing there, but I am not disappointed with them. I don’t want or demand or need them to be doing anything. Them just existing in that space, I find valuable and beautiful and excellent and full of love, with them doing nothing at all. They are just existing.

Jon Rosemberg
What a beautiful and powerful reflection, Pete. And I think that the emotion and the moment in which we experience that type of connection that you’re describing that you have with your kids, that’s thriving.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool, yeah. So, more of that would be great.

Jon Rosemberg
Oh, goodness. It’s not easy, right? It requires effort because we are designed for survival. Our bodies and our brains are designed for survival, right? There’s this evolutionary mismatch that has occurred where technology has taken us to this point where we have, listen, by all measures, we are living in the golden age of humanity.

And I know we see different things on social media. We see different things in the news. But if you look at access to water, access to food, access to education, access to healthcare. Longevity, Pete, 100 years ago, you and I would be buried six feet underground, because the life expectancy, well, I’m not sure how old you are, but life expectancy was 32. Today, it’s more than double that, right?

So, we are in this golden age of humanity. And for some reason, anxiety and depression seem to be one of those persistent things that we don’t understand what is happening. And one of the explanations that seems to make a lot of sense is that our brains and our bodies have not evolved to keep up with the world that we’re living in today.

So, what I’m suggesting is that agency may be one of the antidotes to this experience that we’re having as humans living in this age.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, that’s big stuff, and you can sit with it for a while. And I think the word value is key there. And so, in terms of economic value, I say it may be true, you know, that if we’re not doing anything, we are not producing, you know, money, dollars, economic value, but in a deeper sense, our human value remains.

Jon Rosemberg
Exactly. And, you know, why do we see so many people who have supposedly made it, billionaires, trillionaires now, we’re going to start having trillionaires soon, why do we see so many people who have access, economically speaking, to all of the resources? I mean, the wealth distribution gap has never been larger in humanity either. So, why do we see people who have all of this and still struggle to thrive?

And we see it in the way they communicate. We see it in the way in which they relate to the world. This is a challenging thing to experience. And so, that’s why I want to make sure that we separate the ideas of success and thriving. And I’m sure there’s a Venn diagram where the two overlap, and that’s a happy middle. And that’s what I’m arguing for. For trying to find more moments of thriving, even if it’s at the cost of letting go some of the success, which is the hardest thing to do.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that Venn diagram approach because it also gets you thinking it’s entirely possible to thrive without being successful.

Jon Rosemberg
Yes. Yes. A resounding yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, Jon, we’ve gone into all kinds of profound places. Can you tell me, before I hear about your favorite things, a few of your top tips, your do’s and don’ts for getting more thriving going?

Jon Rosemberg
I would say the first thing is find time for reflection or for a practice that works for you, whatever that is. I tried to meditate for two years. I have a meditation pillow right here in my office, and I sat in that pillow. For two years, I sat on that pillow trying to meditate, and I hated it. My goodness, could I not do it. I just couldn’t do it.

I decided, one day somebody suggested a walking meditation. So, I put on my headphones and I went for a walk and I was like, “Oh, I can do this. This suddenly changed my life.” So, today, I go for even two hour-long walking meditations that I can do with or without headphones, guided or unguided. I had to find the activity that was the right fit for me.

So, a do is, find activities, test many different things, call them little experiments, or however you want to name them, test many different things until you find the one that works for you because there are lot of prescriptions out there that will work for many people. Listen, even cognitive behavior therapy, which is the gold standard for therapy in that world, only benefits about 40%, in the best case, 80% of people. So, it doesn’t mean that it’s for everybody. So, find whatever works for you. That would be the do.

The don’t is just waiting for something magical to happen. We have to use our agency, our capacity as humans to make change happen. It has to come from inside, right? Nobody can make change happen for you. It’s something that we all have to own and take it upon ourselves. And it’s hard and it’s painful. But in my experience, a lot of times the discomfort of staying the same, it’s much worse than the discomfort of changing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jon Rosemberg
One of my favorite quotes is from William James, one of the fathers of psychology, and I actually have it here on my wall, and it’s, “My experience is what I agree to attend to.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you can work on that for a while.

Jon Rosemberg
Yes, attention is a powerful resource and it’s non-renewable for humans. Once we’ve given it, it’s gone. And we have so many things fighting for our attention today. If we can be more agentic as to where we place our attention, that can be a life-changing practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, that’s powerful. What I agree to attend to is, like, we need not attend to necessarily anything just because, “It’s all over Twitter,” “The headlines are saying this,” “My feed, all my recommended YouTube videos.” It’s like, “Yeah, and we always have that choice.” I can choose to attend to that. I can agree or I can disagree to attend to a matter, and we’ve always got the power.

Jon Rosemberg
So, let’s look at the numbers on this just very quickly. Every second, the sensory input that we get, it’s between 10 and 100 million bits of information. Every second. Only about 10 to 50 filter into our conscious awareness. And of those 10 to 50 that filter into our conscious awareness, usually there is a five to one negativity ratio. I mean, that’s the negativity bias that we look for.

You post something on Instagram and you get 20 likes and 300 comments saying, “You’re amazing.” But there’s one comment that’s negative and we will focus on the negative comment, right? That’s the negativity bias at play.

Imagine if we can actually learn how to better manage what we agree to attend to. It’s life-changing because you have 100 million choices, and you only get to do 10 to 50. So that’s a really powerful practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jon Rosemberg
It’s a book about therapy, actually. Her name is Marsha Linehan, and she created something called dialectical behavior therapy, and she wrote her autobiography. And one of the powerful ideas in that book that really resonated with me is the idea of dialectics, that two things that seem opposing can be true at the same time. And I think that’s a really powerful way to look at the world and to understand complexity.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jon Rosemberg
You can go to my LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn, Jon Rosemberg. You can go to my website, JonRosemberg.com, and, yeah, that’s the best way to reach me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jon Rosemberg
Yes, take the time to hone in the skill of agency. However, it works for you, just take the time to understand it and to play around with it. It can be life-changing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jon, thank you.

Jon Rosemberg
Thank you, Pete. I appreciate it.