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Apr 21
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1051: Channeling Optimism as a Superpower with Sumit Paul-Choudhury

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Sumit Paul-Choudhury shares the science behind optimism and why it gives people an advantage in the long term.

You’ll Learn

  1. The case for optimism
  2. How to train your brain to become an optimist
  3. How to direct your optimism to where you need it most

About Sumit

Sumit Paul-Choudhury writes, thinks, and dreams about science, technology, and the future. A former Editor-in-Chief of New Scientist, he trained as an astrophysicist, has worked as a financial journalist, and, at the London Business School, received a Sloan Fellowship in strategy and leadership. Currently, he devotes most of his time to his creative studio Alternity, which puts the ideas in this book into scientific and artistic practice. He lives and works in London.

Resources Mentioned

Sumit Paul-Choudhury Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Sumit, welcome.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Hi, glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m feeling optimistic about this interview.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Me too, hopefully, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I would like to kick it off. You’ve got a pretty dramatic story in terms of you share that you became an optimist on the night of tragedy. Can you tell us the story and how you came to this position?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Yeah. So, well, it’s not so much that I became an optimist as I realized I was one starting at that point. So, some time ago now, my first wife died of cancer, or complications of cancer. And, obviously, this was a pretty bad time for me. But one of the things I did, or the main thing I did, actually, was in the aftermath, I was to think, “Well, how am going to get through this?” And I thought, “Well, the present is not great, obviously, but I have to believe that the future is going to be better. It’s going to be brighter than today is.”

And so, I started, more or less, kind of like a coping mechanism, really. I sort of declared myself to be an optimist. I said, “I’m going to be an optimist. I’m going to believe that the future is going to be better. And, in that way, maybe it will be.” And so, I started to do things that I thought might help me along that goal. And as I kind of did them, I realized a couple of things.

One was I realized that, actually, it was helping, and something that I kind of thought was frivolous. I thought optimism is kind of a fairly naive way to go about your life. I realized there was more power there than I had realized previously. And the other thing I realized was that, actually, I thought, “Well, this is coming at a very bleak time in my life.”

And then I thought, “Well, I’ve always been an optimist. This is something I’ve always assumed that things will get better. And even now in this darkest of moments, I still think things are going to get better.” And then realizing that I was an optimist and appeared to be quite strongly optimistic was quite difficult because I thought it was frivolous. I thought this was something that if you didn’t really want to think much about life, you’d just say, “Oh, I’m an optimist. Things will work out.” And that’s how you proceed.

So, both of those things came as something of a surprise to me, that optimism wasn’t this kind of throwaway thing, and that I’d always been one, which wasn’t something I identified with myself.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s powerful. Thank you for sharing. And I really relate to that. I remember, when I was 15, my dad died in a bicycling accident.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Oh, sorry.

Pete Mockaitis
And it was terrible and very sad. And, at the same time, in the mix of my thoughts, I remember thinking, “Boy, I’m so grateful that I had him for this long.” Because I just imagined, like, if he had left me three years earlier, I probably could have gotten into some real trouble, really, because I had some, I don’t know, wild rebelliousness within me.

And so, I was grateful for what could have been, that was not looking to the past, and you’re looking to the future, like, you believe the future will be better than today. Well, tell us, you know a lot of reason, fact-based, evidence-based things, is optimism rational, true, believable, defensible for the skeptic?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Well, I’m a science journalist, I should say. And that was one of the reasons I found optimism, or identifying as an optimist, to be difficult, because I kind of prided myself on being a critical thinker, or being someone who made all these decisions on the basis of evidence. Or, at least, that’s what I thought I was doing, right? And then I became a journalist. And, similarly, in journalism, you’re supposed to be a detached critical thinker.

You view things objectively, try and come up with the most accurate possible assessment of a situation, or of what you’re being told. And that doesn’t sit very well with the idea of optimism as this kind of belief that things will turn out for the better. And, actually, the more I kind of dug into it, the more I realized that actually optimism is kind of irrational, actually. I mean, people kind of often try and turn it into a rational kind of way of looking at the world.

And there are arguments for it and there are ways that you can kind of make it more rigorous. But at its core, optimism in the psychological sense is irrational. Psychologists refer to it as unrealistically positive expectations. It’s kind of believing that good things will happen more often than the numbers suggest or the experience of your peers suggest. And bad things will happen less often than the numbers suggest. So, it is basically irrational.

But having said that, you can make a good case for it. You can make a case for the fact that this irrational belief, nonetheless, helps us to get ahead in life. And when you kind of do the kind of research that psychologists have done, you discover that, actually, people who score as more strongly optimistic up to a point also seem to have better lives in many respects. Longer lives, healthier lives, happier lives, and more successful lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I want to dig into that. And I guess, with that strict definition of optimism, in terms of the belief that things will be better than they, statistically, are likely to be, I guess I’m curious, though, sometimes just having–we had Jamil Zaki on the show, and he was talking about hope, and that often our default assumptions are more cynical and more doubtful than the reality on the ground.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Right, exactly. And I think that’s where optimism comes into its own, essentially. So, the reason that it’s irrational is because we don’t have the evidence to hand to say, “I believe this thing will work out.” We don’t have the evidence for that, you know, “I think I’m going to get this promotion,” say. You can’t say ahead of time that that’s definitely going to happen. Almost never in the real world are you in a position where you can say, “With 100% certainty, I know what’s going to happen,” or, “I know that things aren’t going to work out.” That’s just not the way the world works.

Most of the time you have to kind of try and make your best guess, and you know that your best guess is not going to be entirely correct. The difference between being an optimist and a pessimist in that situation is that as an optimist, you recognize that there are positive possibilities that you don’t see. There are positive outcomes that you’re not necessarily aware of.

As a pessimist, you kind of write those off. As an optimist, you think, “Well, there are positives. I don’t know what they are. I don’t know what those further solutions, those further opportunities might be,” but you make the effort to keep yourself open to them, to keep looking for them. And so, if they do exist, you’ll find them, right?

If you’re a pessimist, on the other hand, you don’t do anything. And so, you don’t kind of realize those opportunities. So, basically, I mean, you start off in this position where, whatever your best assessment is, it’s going to be wrong. If you assume it’s wrong and there’s no upside, then that’s going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you assume it’s wrong, but there are positive outcomes out there that you haven’t foreseen, then you’ve got a better chance of achieving them.

Pete Mockaitis
This kind of reminds me of Pascal’s Wager.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Yeah, it is very much like that.

Pete Mockaitis
Except we’re not talking about death and eternity, so much as life and the immediate weeks, months, years ahead.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Right. Right, it is like that. Actually, I mean, it’s like optimism in its origins is actually a philosophical argument, not a psychological one. So, it actually doesn’t really come from, it’s become this kind of, you know, word for the way that we look at the world, and that’s essentially what it means to us today. And it has always meant that to some extent.

But once upon a time, it was a much deeper, more philosophical point about, “What way does the world skew?” You know, at a time when the kind of language of probability and risk and that sort of thing was not as evolved as it is today, you had to explain why bad things happened. And optimism was one way that you explained how that good things were more likely to happen than bad things.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, boy, the universe of statistics and probability and risk today is wild. I’m thinking about markets such as Polymarket and predicted and Kalshi, it’s like, wow, we’ve got a number of people putting money on the probabilities of all sorts of things. So, yeah, what an environment we find ourselves in.

So, well, could you share then a few of the biggest discoveries, the most fascinating tidbits you’ve uncovered within psychology that you share in your book, The Bright Side: How Optimists Change the World, and How You Can Be One?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, the main kind of thing about this, as I say, is that you can make a good argument for why you should be an optimist even though being optimistic is not rational. And the way that pans out is that, essentially, by going after opportunities you don’t necessarily know exist, you tend to realize them in due course. And that kind of helps you to kind of benefit from the upside, from benefits from upsides that you don’t necessarily see at the outset.

And where this kind of shows up, in day-to-day life, essentially, is that it makes you better at coping. I mean, as I kind of talked about with my own experience at the beginning of this, I was doing this inadvertently, but it makes you better at coping with setbacks. It makes you more able to kind of bounce back when you hit a roadblock. You don’t kind of think, “That roadblock is absolute and total and I’ve gotten nowhere around it.” You think, “Well, actually there are probably are ways around this even if I can’t see them.”

And that translates not just like to the decisions you make about your own personal life in terms of what might be happening to you in your family life or whatever, as my example goes. But it also translates to the area of relationships. So, optimists tend to work harder at their relationships, both kind of your social relationships and your professional ones. And so, that means that you tend to kind of persevere more. You tend to try a bit harder to get past whatever your current problem is.

And that, over the long term, tends to mean that things work out. But there is kind of a caveat in here, which is that it does have to be something that you kind of do on a routine, regular basis. If you just get wildly optimistic about a particular thing, a particular event, let’s say you are going for a promotion. If you get massively optimistic about that particular event, that doesn’t necessarily help because it doesn’t–you can’t change the odds in your favor all that dramatically.

If, however, you kind of take every opportunity you have to advance yourself, and you take each of those individually with an optimistic stance, that’s what tends to pan out over the long term because, sure, you’ll be wrong sometimes and some things won’t work out, but sometimes they do. And over time that accumulates.

So, optimism is not a short thing. It’s not a one-off, you know, wild overestimation of how likely you are to get lucky in a particular time. It’s a game for the long term. It’s something you have to keep trying and keep trying to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, this is really juicy stuff, and it reminds me of some of Dr. Albert Bandura’s research on self-efficacy, in terms of the beliefs we have about what is possible for ourselves really do translate into different results, not so much in a mystical law of attraction, universe bringing things into your life kind of a way, but rather a, “Well, hey, if you believe that it’s going to work out this way, or that you have the power to do a thing, then you’re going to go ahead and make an effort, and you get the results more often when you go ahead and make the effort than when you don’t.”

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Exactly. I mean, I think there are other ways in which this pays off. It pays off in terms of your relationships, I say, because people like optimists. People like people who are willing. And this is not difficult to understand, but, I mean, clearly, who’s going to kind of want to hang out with someone who tells you things are going to be terrible, right? I mean, you want to hang out with someone who says, “Things are going to be good. If you follow me, things are going to work out well.”

But if you kind of adopt that stance and you put in that little bit of extra effort, then you tend to kind of reinforce those relationships. And it works both ways, right? I mean, if you develop a stronger relationship, that then becomes a status resource, as it’s called, that you can then draw upon.

It means that when you kind of come to a point when you need something down the line, you’re more able to ring up that person you have that relationship with. You’re more able to kind of ask for a favor. You’re more able to ask for advice. And those are all the kind of things that, gradually, over time, add up to real material changes in your ability to achieve what you want.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, could you share some fun stories that bring this all to life?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, I think the easiest place to see optimism at work at the moment, and you can take this however you like, really, is in the Valley. So, optimism is very strongly associated with entrepreneurship and with innovation. I say entrepreneurship, but I mean, essentially, anyone who wants to take a chance on doing something new or different requires a certain level of optimism because, at the outset, you can’t know that it’s going to work out.

So, whether you’re within a company or an organization, and you’re trying to do something differently or you’re trying to do something on your own, you need some degree of optimism to make it work. And I think there’s no kind of more successful example of optimism than the people we see who run the big tech companies at the moment and where they came from.

If you take someone like Mark Zuckerberg, he started out coding in his dorm room with a project with what eventually became Facebook. There was no kind of realistic way that you might think at that point in time that this was going to become one of the biggest companies in the world and one of the most powerful companies in the world, and that he would still be single-handedly in charge of that now. That this would be kind of his pet project.

Zuckerberg talks about this in terms of that language of the self-fulfilling prophecy. So, he talks about, you know, this is one of his favorite phrases that optimists tend to be successful, pessimists tend to be right. And this is the kind of thing about, so if you’re a pessimist, you can always kind of justify this to yourself. You can always say, “I was correct about that,” because you go and look for the evidence that supports your point of view.

You don’t do anything to confound it and, therefore, you end up being correct that something doesn’t work out. If you’re an optimist, you tend to ignore that and you build the thing, you build the multimillion, the multibillion-dollar company, and you go ahead and do it even though that’s not what conventional wisdom says you can do, even though that’s not something that someone working out of a dorm room is supposed to be able to achieve. That’s kind of where the power of optimism comes in.

Pete Mockaitis
I like it. Could I have another story?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, in the story I tell in the book, I tell the story of how I eventually got my job at New Scientists. And it started off, when I was a kid, I was in my dad’s office. He took me to work when we were on vacation, when I was on vacation rather, from school, and I found a stack of magazines, New Scientists magazines, so science magazine.

I kind of thought at the time that writing in science were not very compatible occupations, which they, by and large, are not supposed to be. And so, I kind of looked at these, the stack of magazines and asked my dad, like, “Who looks after this magazine?” And he said, “The editor does that,” and I kind of, “All right. Fine.” And this is when I was about eight, and I thought, “That’s the job I want, basically. I like writing. I like science. That’s something I can do.”

And, obviously, at the age of eight, you don’t have any expectation that you’re going to be able to make that work, right, or what that means, essentially. But I clung onto that idea. And so, when I kind of went to school, I had to make my choices, I decided, “I still had this kind of thing in the back of my mind. This is the ultimate job for me, essentially.” It wasn’t that I necessarily thought I was going to get it tomorrow, but that was what I was aiming for.

So, when I came to having to choose between writing and science, initially I chose science because I thought you needed to be a scientist. And I thought that you could be a writer even if you didn’t have the training for that. So, I studied science, I studied astrophysics, I did all of that. And then I decided that I would switch to writing, which was kind of this leap into the unknown, essentially, at that point.

And it was kind of a, that was pure unbridled optimism. I thought I could make that work. I had no evidence for it. I had no background in writing. I had no track records. I had no particular expertise in that field. But I thought I’d give it a go. So, I did. And as it turns out, I did turn out to be able to make a career in writing.

But the most important thing, really, wasn’t that I was necessarily good at that. It was that by looking for ways to advance that career, I eventually lucked into a position where the physics background was very useful, which was in covering finance. From there, I kind of did that for quite a long time. I started a publication through a random opportunity, through someone I met through networking, carried on doing this.

And, eventually, after doing that for about a decade, I wrote back to New Scientist, and said, “Can I have a job?” And they said, you know, at that point, they kind of said, “Well, you know, maybe later, maybe if you get some more experience.” So, I got a bit more experience. I wrote back to them. And, ultimately, they gave me a job, a part-time position. It was a two-day a week position that I started out with.

And then, over time, I built up from there and, eventually, I became the editor in chief. And the kind of point I was trying to make here is that, really, I mean, there are a number of ways you can think about this. This was not a case of me saying at the beginning of this, I had the very naive, optimistic view that, you know, if I just went out there and did like, you know, wrote for a couple of years, I would somehow end up at New Scientist and end up in charge.

What it turned out to be was that much longer game, but every step along the way required me to take kind of optimistic leaps into the dark, essentially. It meant I have to kind of accept, I had to be optimistic about my chances of being a writer. I had to be optimistic about my chances of, once I’ve been a writer, of being able to run a publication.

And then I’d to be optimistic about my chances of getting into New Scientist. And once I was there, I had to be optimistic about my chances of progressing there. And so, there’s a succession of steps, each of them involved being open to possibilities that were not obvious at the outset. Each of them is kind of optimistic journey, a step down this line, that, eventually, ended up with me getting the job that I kind of set out to do, you know, 25 odd years earlier. And that’s kind how I got to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s very cool. Congratulations.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. So, if we think, “Yes, that’s good. I would like some more of that,” but it doesn’t come so naturally to us, what do we do?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, there are a few things you can do, and some of these are given in the book. They’re not actually particularly complicated. The main thing is that we don’t take the time to do them. So, there are a bunch of exercises that people have suggested for how you can make yourself more dispositionally optimistic. So, the very specific optimism, I think we kind of know how to make ourselves optimistic about how to kind of G ourselves up for a specific challenge.

So, if we’re going for a job interview, or we’ve got a big project to pull off, whatever, I think we kind of all have an idea about how we kind of build our morale for that. But the bigger challenge is being optimistic in that longer term sense, in that persistent sense. And there are a couple of things that people suggest for that, or psychologists have suggested for that.

One of them, which I think is kind of something that has to become second nature, is called disputation. And this is the idea that when something happens, you need to try and explain it to yourself in a way that doesn’t kind of make it entirely an issue, you know, it doesn’t make it an inevitability. So, the idea is that we have different explanatory styles.

And one explanatory style is to say, “Well, I didn’t get that job,” or that promotion, or, “This project didn’t work because it was always doomed to happen that way,” “I wasn’t qualified,” “I’m not ready,” “I don’t have the right kind of skillset for it,” or whatever else, and to really internalize that. And, obviously, there’s always going to be some truth to that and you always need to reflect on the components of that that might have led to whatever situation you end up in.

But the other way of doing it is to think about, is to kind of to challenge that, and think about the other factors that were involved and how you might have controlled those, to think about whether there are external factors, whether you had a bad day, whether you had a personality clash with the person you’re talking to, whether there was a failure in the environment that meant you couldn’t deliver against whatever you’re trying to deliver against. So, with that, you have to keep doing it. It’s not something you can do once and then move on from.

It’s like having a little post-mortem every time something happens, and thinking about it and trying to come up with a constructive frame. And if you do that over and over and over again, you eventually become good at kind of coming up with an optimistic interpretation of what’s happened. And that then makes you better at coming up with optimistic interpretations of what’s going to happen, of the challenges that you face. It makes you better able to frame your challenges, your problems in ways that are amenable to solutions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And can we dig it out into some particular questions or prompts or ways we might point our brain in the direction that gets there?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So there are a few different ways you can do this. One is there’s a model called the best-possible-self exercise, which is kind of you sit down and you, essentially, spend 15 minutes talking about the best possible version of you. So, you try and you can do this in whichever way makes sense to you. You can do it as a written description.

So, one of the things I did when I was in my bereavement was, I did this as a blog posting exercise, essentially. I wrote down what I thought my life could be like. But you can do it that way, you can do it in terms of the things that you want to achieve over various timeframes. You can ask yourself what success looks like to you.

And the idea is to try and do that on a regular basis, to do it something like daily. You spend something like 15 minutes a day doing this for as long as you can manage, essentially. Initially, it helps to kind of do it over a short-term period, so do it for like two weeks or so. And then you can do it less frequently over time because it’s a lot of time commitment.

The thing about that is not something that we never do, but we don’t tend to do it very often. We only tend to do it when we have a particular decision to make. Whereas, doing it on a regular basis means that you keep kind of front and center in your mind what it is that you’re trying to achieve, what it is that you want to do, essentially, rather than being, getting lost in the fog of the moment or of the everyday.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you talk about being lost in the fog of the moment or the everyday, if you do find yourself in that zone of sweeping condemnation or despair, do you have any kind of go-to tactics to lift yourself up out of there?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
I think the one thing that’s useful there is to think about the pivotal moments in your life and to think about the what-ifs. You kind of mentioned earlier the what-if when your father passed. And that’s kind of a quite extreme example. But I think one of the things that’s useful to do when you feel like overwhelmed is to think about the what-ifs in your own life. Think about the points when things could have gone differently for you. And there’s two kinds of implications of that.

One is the ways in which they went right for you and the ways that your life has gone in the direction that you wanted to. And the other is to think about how you would have reacted if they’d gone a different way. Because, usually, particularly with the passage of time, it becomes easier to see that, actually, whatever happened was not the only thing that could have happened and the only way that things could have worked out. There are other ways that things could have gone that would have been equally satisfying.

And you can usually see that with a remove. And that helps you to bring perspective on the current moment. No matter what you kind of look at, if you’re looking at the moment right now and you think, “I can’t see a way out of this. I can’t see what happens from here,” you’ve probably felt like this in the past. There are moments in your past when you would have felt like that, and things either worked themselves out for the better, or you know how they could have done. And that, I think, gives you perspective.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Sumit, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
I think there’s a lot of upsides to optimism, and they pan out over the long term gradually, more than they do in the short term. One of the things about being an optimist, I think you have to be careful not to let it kind of override your basic kind of common sense about how to treat people. I think optimism is a question of directing the optimism that you have.

I think if you kind of think about where you’re optimistic in your life and where you’re maybe not so optimistic, that kind of helps you to identify areas where you might want to concentrate using things like that best possible self-exercise, or where you want to kind of think a bit harder about disputing your version of events.

It’s not that easy to necessarily raise your level of optimism hugely. And I’m not sure that that’s necessarily that healthy an exercise because if you do that, you run the risk of starting to dismiss the problems in your life, or the problems in other people’s lives, or the real challenges that you face. So, I think that with optimism, it’s more a question of directing the optimism that you have and trying to increase it in specific areas than it is with being blanket positive.

It’s not just about being happy or being relentlessly positive about everything. It’s about trying to focus on the areas where you need that optimism. And that’s also true when it comes to assessing what lies ahead of you. One of the things that optimists, an optimist sees opportunity everywhere. And that means you can find it quite difficult to pick one thing to focus on.

If you’re an optimist like I am, you tend to kind of, as sort of from the little description I gave you there of my career, you tend to kind of want to try and do everything. So, you need to bring a little bit of discipline to that as well in terms of what the specific things you want to do, the specific goals you want to achieve, the specific jobs you want to have, the specific roles you want to play. So, optimism is about targeting. It’s not just about being relentlessly sun-shiny. It’s about choosing where you want to increase your ability to see that brighter future.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have any guardrails or pro-tips on how much optimism is too much, or when we’re potentially flirting with recklessness?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
I think the best answer there, really, is to listen to other people. So, generally, it’s the point at which you’re tipping over from constructing a version of events that suits you into denial. There’s a point at which people are saying, “You’re wrong about this.” And you need to kind of think carefully about whether they’re right or they’re wrong. You need to think about the data. You need to think about what the numbers say.

We’re disposed to ignore the numbers completely. You can’t ignore them completely. You need to pay a certain amount of attention to them. It’s clearer in things like in health outcomes. If you smoke 20 cigarettes a day, it doesn’t make any difference what you do. You’re going to have bad outcomes from that.

If you take wild financial risks, those also are not going to work out for you in the long term. So, there’s just a certain degree of remaining grounded and a certain degree of listening to what people are telling you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, my favorite quote on optimism comes from James Baldwin, the Civil Rights activist. And so, he came out of, this is in 1963, he came out of a meeting with Robert F. Kennedy, who was the Attorney General at the time. And it was a very acrimonious meeting. Things had not worked out. They had not been able to find common ground. And Baldwin, as it happened, was doing a TV interview the same day.

And, in the course of that interview, he was asked, “Well, what do you think about the future of America? Are you optimistic or are you pessimistic?” And he kind of thinks about it for a minute. You can see it on the film if you watch it. He’s kind of thinking for a minute about what to say. And then he says, “I think I have to be an optimist because, otherwise, you’re accepting that human life is an academic matter.”

And what he means by that, I think, is that, you can’t afford to– it goes a little bit back to what you saying about cynicism, that you can’t really afford to say that life is a purely a matter of calculation about what is bloodlessly correct. Life is something we live, and you have to kind of be engaged with it. And that, I think, means being an optimist.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
There’s one that kind of sticks in my mind quite a bit, which is one by three psychologists called Armor, Massey, and Sackett. And that was, essentially, about what people think about optimism.

They basically did an experiment where they say, “Here are some scenarios that the people are facing.” Someone is offered a promotion. Someone is asked to organize an event and a few other things like that. And they asked people, “What stance should people have going into this? Should they be optimistic? Should they be pessimistic?”

And almost universally, across the board with all of these scenarios, the answer is they should be optimistic. And that’s kind of very telling because people don’t expect realism from others. People don’t think that realism is the best way to go into things. People think that optimism is the best way to go into a new challenge.

And then it’s kind of a rider to that, so, two, actually. One is the degree to which they prescribe optimism depends on how much control you have over the situation, which is not surprising in some respects. The other one, though, is that they didn’t think people were optimistic enough. We almost never think that anybody is going to be optimistic enough, or that we are going to be optimistic enough in dealing with these situations.

So, there is an enormous kind of psychological weight to optimism, but one that we tend not to allow ourselves when we’re in a professional context. We tend not to allow ourselves to express that kind of belief, I think, because we think we’ll be viewed as naive, or we think we’ll be viewed as being unrealistic in some way. But I think it helps to remember that, actually, almost all the time, everybody thinks optimism is the right way to approach a challenge. And that, actually, we probably don’t make enough use of them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
The book I would recommend is Candide by Voltaire. An old book, it’s published in 1759. The title is Candide or optimism. And it is a book that sets up two different strands of optimism. It sets up one which is, I referred to earlier, this kind of grand philosophical version of optimism in which the world is set up a certain way and things must turn out for the right within it.

And another, which is much more kind of concerned with the here and now in the present moment. And I don’t think either of those two kinds of optimism is necessarily correct or incorrect. They’re both different kinds of optimism. I think it helps to think about both of them. The one in which you try and make sense of the world and the one in which you think about what you can do, what you can do to make your own situation better, what you can do around you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, the main tool I would say, the thing that’s really made a difference to me in the last few years, given that I’m a knowledge worker, essentially, is Roam, which is a personal knowledge management tool.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
My favorite habit is probably my version of the best possible self, which kind of takes various forms, but I do it over different time scales. So, I do one, which is sort of for the next month or so, I do one for the next year, and I do one for the next five years. The one that actually turns out to be most useful for me, I found, is the five year one, in point of fact.

Because I think the others, they get derailed very quickly. Things I need to do over the course of the next week, like everybody I set out with my list of to do, most of them don’t get done, you know, some of them do. The five year one, though, is like the compass needle of where I need to get to over the long term.

And I find that it makes it much easier to make all the little course corrections you need to do. And it makes decision-making easier when I’m thinking about what I want to be doing in five years’ time rather than what I want to be doing next week.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
So, the best place is my website, which is Alternaty.com, A-L-T-E-R-N-I-T-Y dot com. You’ll find more information about me and the book there, and some other resources fairly soon. Not up yet, but they’re going to be, they will be shortly. Otherwise, I’m available on LinkedIn.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Always stay open to possibility. If you plant many seeds, some of them will grow. If you go out looking for new opportunities, you’ll find them. If you stay where you are, if you carry on doing what you’re doing, you won’t. So, keep moving forward.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Sumit, thank you. This has been fun.

Sumit Paul-Choudhury
Thank you, Pete. Thank you.

Apr 17
0

1050: How to Shift Your Mood and Keep Your Cool with Dr. Ethan Kross

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Ethan Kross shares simple, science-backed tools for managing your emotions.

You’ll Learn

  1. When avoidance is actually helpful
  2. Effortless strategies for quickly shifting your mood
  3. The emotional regulation framework used by the Navy SEALs 

About Ethan

Ethan Kross, PhD, author of the national bestseller Chatter, is one of the world’s leading experts on emotion regulation. An award-winning professor in the University of Michigan’s top ranked Psychology Department and its Ross School of Business, he is the Director of the Emotion and Self-Control Laboratory.

Ethan has participated in policy discussion at the White House and has been interviewed about his research on CBS Evening News, Good Morning America, Anderson Cooper Full Circle, and NPR’s Morning Edition. His research has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, The New England Journal of Medicine, and Science. He completed his BA at the University of Pennsylvania and his PhD at Columbia University.

Resources Mentioned

Ethan Kross Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Ethan, welcome back!

Ethan Kross
Hey, thanks for having me, Pete. Always great to be here with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I loved our first conversation about your book Chatter. And now we’re talking about your book Shift. Tell us, what made you think that this book needed to exist in the world?

Ethan Kross
Well, the recognition really came from just talking to people about my first book, which you just mentioned, Chatter. So that book really dealt with, “What do you do when you get stuck in a negative thought loop that you just can’t get out of, worrying and ruminating?” I would give talks about that topic, and the audience would be incredibly receptive to the tools that I would share with them.

But then they’d have loads of other questions about their emotional lives, beginning with, “What is an emotion in the first place? Why do we have them? What do they do for us? Are the bad ones good, or can they help us in some way? And what about if it’s just a momentary increase in emotion that I want to regulate, not necessarily a thought loop?”

And the way I think about the experience I had, it was like I had just given a talk on how to combat heart disease, but people had questions about inflammation, cancer, diabetes, and all sorts of other chronic ailments. And so, it really motivated me to dig into what we know about this messy emotional world that we live in and what we could do to manage our responses to it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’d love it if you could kick us off with any particularly surprising discoveries you’ve made. So, you’ve been researching this kind of thing for quite a while at Michigan. Is there insight you share with audiences that make people go, “Whoa”?

Ethan Kross
First off, there are no one-size-fits-all solutions when it comes to managing our emotions. People routinely ask me, “What’s the one thing you should do if you are experiencing…?” fill-in-the-blank, A, B, C, D, or E, anger, anxiety, envy, you name it. I can’t answer that question because what I know from the science is that there are no one-size-fits-all solutions.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, Ethan, if I may, whenever I’m talking to the AI robots, they tell me deep breathing is the answer to calm down.

Ethan Kross
Well, deep breathing can be useful for some people in some situations, but so can a boatload of other strategies. We recently published these studies that looked at how people managed their COVID anxiety during the pandemic. We tracked people for several days over the course of a few weeks, and every day we asked them to tell us, “What did you do today to manage your anxiety about the pandemic?” And we also had people rate their anxiety.

And what we found was there were lots of things people could do to feel better about what they were going through. But, on average, people use between three and four different tools each day. Not one, not just deep breathing. Between three and four, some people use a lot more, some people use a little bit less.

But what we also found, Pete, was that the tools that worked for one person on one day were remarkably different than the tools that worked for someone else on the same day. The tools that worked for one person on one day were sometimes different from the tools that worked for them the next day.

So, I think of all of this now a lot like how I think about physical fitness. A lot of us share the same goal to be physically fit, to be physically healthy. But how we get there can be quite, quite different. If I just look in my immediate social circles. What I do is different from each and every one of those other people in my group, right? We may all like to lift little weights, but I like to do some high intensity stuff, and sometimes I’ll do yoga. Another friend might throw in some Pilates or a different regimen. There are different ways to achieve our goal, and that is true of being emotionally fit as well. So, that’s one thing I want everyone to know. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions.

Another aha, there’s no such thing as a bad emotion. So, we often think, you know, if we’re feeling anxious or sad or anger, there’s something wrong with us. These are emotions we want to rid ourselves of. In fact, we evolved the capacity to experience those emotions because they’re often functional as long as we experience them not too intensely or not too long.

Anger alerts us to the fact that our view of what’s right and wrong has just been challenged and there’s something we could do to fix the situation. Anxiety tells us that there’s a looming uncertain threat on the horizon. Maybe we should pay attention to it. Now, clearly, for so many of us, so much of the time, those otherwise adaptive negative emotional responses become harmful because we can’t turn them off, and that’s where the science of shifting that I talk about in my book comes into play.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Well, this is good, and there was an author, I think it was Susan David, who wrote a book, and she had a cute little abbreviation about emotions, it’s, “What the funct?” That’s spelled F-U-N-C-T, like, “What is the function of this emotion?”

And I found that to be a much more helpful question when I’m having conversations with myself than “Why are you here anger?” because it’s almost like it creates defensiveness. It’s like if you screwed up something at work, it’s like, “Why don’t I have this document yet?” It’s like, “Ugh!” It almost, like, sparks defensiveness, and you can give some, “Well, I’m angry because of all these things!” And sure enough, then we’re really reinforcing that anger.

And what I’d like to do is sort of quickly understand and move past it to be more effective in whatever context I am. So, I think that’s great to note that they’re not bad things to be fixed but they have a function within them.

Ethan Kross
That’s right. And so, what I like to tell people is that if you experience negative emotions, there’s nothing wrong with you. It means you’re operating the way you’re supposed to operate. But, these tools that we possess, these emotional tools that we have, they’re unwieldy tools, right, as you just described, and we don’t get a user’s manual for how to manage them.

And that’s really what I try to do in this book, is provide folks with a science-based blueprint for how to understand how to turn the volume on their emotions, up or down, shorten or lengthen how long they last, or even jump from one emotion to another. And there are lots of things you could do there. And interestingly, Pete, there’s also, there are a lot of myths about how we should shift that are actually wrong.

So, maybe we could go into some of those myths because those are often fun and they’re helpful ways to introduce some of the tools. Myth number one, avoidance is always bad. So, we often hear that you should never avoid your problems, face them head-on. This was a lesson that was drilled into me from a young age.

It’s absolutely true that chronically avoiding your problems doesn’t tend to work out very well for people. So just suppressing, denying, drowning yourself in substances that may provide you with some temporary but not long-lasting relief. These are things that many people do. They’ve been shown to be harmful, but we have over-generalized from that observation to assume that all forms of avoidance are harmful. They are not.

Pete, have you ever had an aggravating interaction in person or an email?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes.

Ethan Kross
And you’re smiling already, so I’ll take that as yes. And the temptation existed to respond right away but you combated it. You took time away. You distracted maybe for a couple hours, maybe for a few days, and you came back to the experience and found that it was a lot easier for you to work through it rationally. Does that resonate with you?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. “The Lincoln Letters,” right, that’s a historical legend, which I think is true. Lincoln was angry, he wrote some letters, and he put them in his desk and just kept them there.

Ethan Kross
There you go. So that’s a way of being strategic with your attention, right? You don’t have to choose between approaching or avoiding, as we often describe it. You can approach your problems and then take some time away and then come back to them. You could do that repeatedly. And research shows that being flexible in that regard can be quite helpful. So, avoidance is not always useful. Attention is a powerful tool. You want to be flexible with how you wield it.

Let’s talk about being in the moment. We often hear that the goal should be to always be in the moment. Now it’s absolutely true that being in the moment can be helpful when we get stuck in a negative future or past. But there are also ways to travel in time in your mind to help you deal with the problems you’re experiencing, and these are easy, powerful tools that we all possess.

So, I call this mental time travel. Rather than say in the moment, I could transport myself into the future 10 years from now and think to myself, “How am I going to feel about this thing that’s really bugging me right now 10 years from now?” What that does is it highlights something I know at my core to be true, that whatever I’m experiencing as time goes on, it will eventually fade in its intensity.

The reason I know that to be true is the same reason why you know it to be true, and so many of our listeners do as well. We’ve experienced millions of emotional reactions over the course of our lives, and most of them follow the same time course, the same what we call temporal trajectory. Our emotions get triggered, and then as time goes on, they eventually fade.

Now we lose sight of that when we’re struggling, when all we could think about is how awful and consuming our circumstances are. But jumping into the mental time travel machine into the future, it makes it clear that what we’re going through is impermanent. That gives us hope, which turns the volume on our emotional responses down. So that’s mental time travel into the future.

You can also go into the past. I do this a lot, too. I opened the book with a story of my grandmother who narrowly escaped being slaughtered along with the rest of her family during the Holocaust. She lived homeless in Poland for years before she escaped to the States and built a new life. When things feel really bad for me, I jump into my mental time travel machine. I spend some time with her in the frozen Polish woods.

I don’t have to spend a lot of time, just a little bit, and it powerfully makes clear that what I’m going through pales in comparison to what she endured, and that broadens my perspective quite well. So, myth number two, you should always be in the moment. No, you shouldn’t. First of all, if your goal is to always be in the moment, good luck. I don’t think it’s actually possible. The brain evolved to travel in time.

Traveling in time is something we do in our minds, helps us plan for the future, learn from the past. What we all, I think, want to be doing is focusing on “How can we be better mental time travelers?” And that means sometimes recalibrating in the moment, but also traveling strategically in our minds into the future and past, depending on what our goals are. So that’s another myth.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to dig into that notion of, it’s a mental travel, time travel to the past, think about being in the frozen woods of Poland, and that gives you some perspective that your current problems aren’t so bad. I’m curious, is there a way to do that poorly?

For example, I think some might say that if we are quick to imagine much greater troubles elsewhere and dismiss the feelings we have about our current state or situation, that might be, I guess, “invalidating” of the emotion and potentially counterproductive. How do you think about that?

Ethan Kross
I don’t think so. Here’s why. It’s a misnomer to think that you apply these tools, and all of a sudden, a real difficult spot in your life turns into a birthday party with cupcakes and soda and warm cups of tea and pizza, right? That’s just not the way emotion regulation works. So, what ends up happening is, instead, as you get these shifts, these down regulatory shifts in amplitude or duration.

Amplitude meaning how intense the emotional response is or how long it lasts. You’re making it feel more controllable, and so you’re not just saying, “Oh, this is nothing and doesn’t mean anything at all.” I think that’s probably pretty rare, that a kind of traveling into the past and thinking about, “Well, you know, things could be worse.” I don’t think it just turns it off.

Having said that, Pete, I always recognize that there are instances that defy the norms. And so, is it possible that that could happen? Sure, absolutely. And in a minority of cases, like, I wouldn’t be willing to bet that that never does occur. But here’s the good news, that if you find yourself trying mental time travel into the past in this way, and it’s leading to the kinds of outcomes that you’re suggesting, don’t use that tool anymore.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s easy. Sure.

Ethan Kross
Use a different one. And that’s an ace in the hole on the one hand but it’s the truth on the other. Like, I don’t respond well to burpees. Are you familiar with burpees?

I hate burpees. It doesn’t mean they don’t make me feel good. Guess what? I don’t do them. They benefit a lot of people. They don’t really benefit me. And there’s a whole boatload of physical exercises like that. I don’t do dips. It’s too hard on my shoulder. And we could go down the list. I’ll spare you my injuries and idiosyncrasies. But the same is true when it comes to managing our emotions and these tools that I’m talking about.

Some people benefit enormously from what we call expressive writing. Sitting down with a problem and just journaling about it for 15 to 20 minutes for one to three days. Just let yourself go. Talk about your deepest thoughts and feelings. Take it wherever you want. Connect it to your past, your future, whatever you want to do.

Research on that shows that that’s a really useful tool. And, in fact, in that COVID study that we ran, that I mentioned earlier, that was the most predictive of anxiety reductions of all the tools we looked about. But guess what? It was also the least frequently used tool out of the 18 or so that we administered, probably because it’s hard to do. Like, sitting down for 20 minutes. Who has 20 minutes? We all feel like we don’t.

I say this because you have agency in how you decide to assemble the tools that you apply to your life. And again, I think that should be a breath of fresh air because so many people I meet, they say things to me like, “Oh, I tried mindfulness. I tried meditating. I tried diaphragmatic breathing. It didn’t work for me. It works for everyone else. What’s wrong with me?” Again, nothing wrong with you. We know that there are these person strategy fits.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like the way you used that term phrase there, assemble the tools. Because sometimes there may be some assembly required. And I’ve been thinking, like lately, some tools I’ve been leaning on a lot, which are new and yet super handy, is that we had a guest, boy, back in the day, Michael Kerr, talked about putting together a humor first aid kit.

And I have diligently followed his advice and even used like a flash card application to assemble mine. And so, I’ve got, like, over a hundred things that I just thought were laugh out loud funny in the moment that I’ve captured, and then I just review them. And then it’s like, “Oh, I remember that time at that trade in Cancun, the trader did this thing, and it was so funny.” And so, it’s great to just have like 10 rapid-fire jokes, it’s like, “Oh, I’m in a better mood.” And there it is.

Ethan Kross
It’s so funny you bring that up. One of the things that we often talk about social media, how it’s bringing about society’s demise, and there clearly are some ways of interacting with social media that are harmful, but I like to remind people that sometimes it can be beneficial from a mood regulatory point of view. We don’t talk about that as much.

And your example makes me think about how I sometimes engage with social media to help improve my mood. Before bed, I will often watch these ridiculously silly short reels, and they bring me such emotional delight. I just find these pranks and other kinds of things, and I’ll laugh at them, and you know, they’re short, and then I’ll send them to some of my buddies, and they’ll send me back the teary-eyed emojis, they’re laughing, and then we both write back that our partners are elbowing us to stop laughing because we’re making too much noise and they don’t understand our humor.

And so, that little exercise of watching a funny video is both instantly elevating my positive affect. It’s also enhancing social connections. A simple thing you could do. So, let’s talk about simplicity for a second, though, because I think that’s another myth we can address. We often think that managing our emotions is hard, you know, “Pull up your sleeves. Get ready for the battle.” Sometimes it is, no question about it. But it isn’t always hard.

There are lots of tools that exist that are relatively effortless to implement. So expressive writing would not be an example of an effortless tool. That’s a pretty effortful tool, right? You’ve got to sit down, 15-20 minutes, you’ve got to write hard. But there are lots of things that you could do that are pretty easy. I’ll just kind of spit off a few. Spit off. Spit out. Mention. Mention a few sounds a lot more appetizing than spit off.

Music. I’ve been listening to music since I’m five years old. I’m guessing you’ve been listening to music for a while, too. Why do you listen to it?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s fun. It sets the vibe or the mood.

Ethan Kross
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
In terms of I got young kids, like, “Let’s have a dance party,” or it’s like, “Are we are we feeling silly? Are we feeling like cue the Rocky theme to spark the motivation, or ‘Eye of the Tiger?” It’s like a movie, that we’re going to score this thing for the emotion or vibe we’re looking for.

Ethan Kross
There you go. So, close to 100% of people, when asked, “Why do you listen to music?” they answer that question by saying, “I like the way it makes me feel.” But if you then look at the percentage of people who, when they’re struggling, reach for music as a tool, it’s only between 10% and 30%. percent. So, music is an example of one way of harnessing your senses to shift your emotions.

All of our senses, sight, sound, touch, smell, hearing, I’ve probably left a few out, those are some of the major ones. Part of the way your senses work is through emotion. So, the senses refer to the different apparatus we possess to take in information about the world around us. Part of the reason we’re taking in that information is so we understand how to navigate the world, and a key part of navigating the world involves understanding what’s safe, what’s not, what should we approach, what should we avoid.

So, your senses are intertwined deeply with your emotions. Again, you know this to be true, like we all do, right? Sounds can elicit emotional responses. Scents, you’ve got a multibillion-dollar industry that deals with just spritzing yourself with scents to change the way you feel about yourself and change the way that other people feel about you. It’s called perfume and cologne, right? Hotels pipe scents into their ventilation system to change the way their patrons make them feel.

Pete Mockaitis
And cars.

Ethan Kross
Food, restaurants, cars. Cars do it.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m working on that delivery.

Ethan Kross
Yeah, little spritz. I mean, it’s wild. For me, it’s wild. I don’t want to assume that everyone thinks it. I find it amazing. I look at the world through this filter now of our senses managing our emotions. Like, restaurants, why do we pay all this money to eat? This is an emotional experience. It’s not like we’re just lining up for an IV drip. We could get away with just an IV drip, right? Like, getting all the nutrients we want from somewhat no flavor bypassing senses.

Pete Mockaitis
Oatmeal and multivitamins and protein shakes, and move on.

Ethan Kross
Yeah, but even those are spiked with senses. Instead, we spend sometimes hundreds of dollars on these fancy meals. It’s all about an emotional experience. Touch. When a touch is registered from someone who we accept the touch from, that can be an amazingly pleasant experience. We caress our children, our partners. Some people even do it themselves when they’re showing, like they self-soothe, they kind of rub their face, right, when they’re trying to feel better about stuff.

So those are just some examples of very, very simple things you could do to get momentary shifts in emotion, and there are many, many others like it. So, all right.

Let’s talk about one more myth having to do with other people. Other people can be an amazing resource in our emotional lives when it comes to shifting, but they can also be a liability. And one of the things that we often hear from those around us and our broader culture, I think, is sending us in the wrong direction when it comes to how to engage with other people, when it comes to our emotional lives. And this is directly relevant to the work experience.

We often hear that when you’re struggling you should find someone to vent your emotions, to just get it out, let it go. Express it, don’t keep it inside. What we know about this is that venting your emotions can be useful for strengthening bonds between people. Good to know someone is willing to listen to me, take the time to listen and care.

Problem is if all you do is vent, you leave that conversation, you feel good about the person you just connected with, but all the problems are still there because you haven’t actually worked through it. They’re not just still there, they’re even more activated because you’ve just spent all this time rehearsing the awfulness of the situation.

So, if venting isn’t the solution, what is? It’s a two-step process. Find someone to talk to about your problems and spend some time initially getting it out. They do need to listen and learn so that they can help you. Empathy is good. But once they have a sense of what you’re going through, and once you feel heard, then, ideally, talk to someone who can help you put your experience in perspective, someone who can help you work through the problem. Other people are in an ideal position to help you do that because the problem isn’t happening to them. So be wary about venting.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, yeah, there’s a lot of cool stuff and a lot of places we can go. I want to check out what you said with regard in your book. It was a powerful sentence. Well, I wish I could quote it directly. Maybe you can. You said something, like, “We cannot control what triggers our emotions, but we can control the trajectory of them,” in terms of like the intensity and how long we’re there.

So, one, I think that’s a heck of a statement because, one, if there were a way, you would know about it, like you of all people, having studied this for so long, so intensively. So, I think that’s kind of telling, in and of itself, that to be realistic about what is, in fact, possible for us as a species. Could you elaborate on that?

Ethan Kross
You ever had the experience–where do you live, Pete? What city or town?

Pete Mockaitis
I live near Nashville.

Ethan Kross
Near Nashville, okay. You ever, on a muggy summer day, walk down the street and just catch a whiff of someone who doesn’t smell very good and experience an emotional reaction?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure. Okay, yeah.

Ethan Kross
Okay. Yeah, me too. That reaction was out of your control. You happened to encounter something in the world, it activated your senses, in turn, activated an emotional response. We experience emotional reactions like that all the time. We see things, we hear things, we think about things that just pop up in our head. We don’t know why the thoughts pop up in our head, but they elicit emotions. We don’t often have control over those different experiences. They just happen.

However, once those emotions are triggered, then that’s our playground, then we can get in there and alter the trajectory of those emotional responses, right? Like, you catch a whiff of that stinky person, maybe you could choose to inhale more deeply. That might perpetuate the response. You might close your nose, pull your shirt up over it. You might start thinking about how selfish is it for this person to carry them in this way.

Or maybe you might think otherwise, “Well, you know, maybe they’re not aware. Maybe they don’t believe in wearing deodorant.” Lots of ways you could think about the situation to alter the trajectory of that response. And so, this is a chapter in the book, and the setup for it is, several years ago when I was doing research as I do now, I came across an article that said that 40% of adolescents sampled in this study did not believe they could control their emotions.

That statistic just floored me because if you don’t think you can control your emotions, why would you do anything to actually try, “I don’t think there’s anything I can do to get healthier, to get more physically fit. Why am I going to go to the gym and do these painful things,” right? It just doesn’t make sense. You need to be motivated in order to use these different tools.

And, of course, I’m a director of a lab called the Emotion and Self-Control Lab. I’ve dedicated my life to understanding how people can control their emotions. And so, when you dig into it, what I’ve learned is that those 40% of students were right if they’re thinking about the trigger of our emotions. We can’t always control the trigger. We don’t have control over all the factors that could activate an emotional response.

What we can control is the trajectory of those emotional responses. And I think just knowing that can be really empowering, too, because it means that if you do find yourself experiencing a dark thought that you’re ashamed of, recognize that that’s not always under your control, but how you engage with that thought is.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, it sounds, is it accurate to say, in your informed, researched view, that no matter what you do, smelling a stinky person is going to trigger an emotional response, just period, even if you’re like trained with exposure to lots of stink for weeks at a time, you’re still going to have a degree of emotion trigger problem?

Ethan Kross
Well, no, no, no. Hold on. Hold on. No.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Ethan Kross
Not. No, no, no. You can certainly train, be trained, or train yourself to become immune to certain kinds of provocations. This is often referred to as stress inoculation therapy. Stress inoculation is often utilized in various military trainings, where the idea is, “Okay, put people under stress, under relatively controlled conditions so that they’re used to it, so that when they find themselves in those situations in everyday life, they don’t respond with this huge reaction.”

You, I’m sure, just as I, like we’ve experienced many things the first time around. They were tremendously distressful, but then you realize you get through them. There are things you could do, and they’re not so bad later. Sometimes you don’t even register anything at all. So, certainly, if we have our eye on a particular kind of situation that provokes us, we can train for it, so to speak, to either reduce in its intensity or get rid of it altogether.

That said, you can’t train for every situation in life, and some situations are likely going to always trigger an emotional response. Certain kinds of, I would argue, sensory events. Pain as an example.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. So, we always have control over, or influence, over the trajectory of the intensity and the length to which we are experiencing an emotion that is triggered, and we may, in certain circumstances, be able to train for, inoculate against certain triggers doing a thing. And so, I’m thinking that hypnosis is one interesting kind of intervention if people have phobias or kind of reactions to things.

There seems to be some good science supporting that, “Oh, okay, with a hypnosis intervention for some people who are hypnotizable, they are not so triggered after kind of going through that.” And then also, you mentioned like a training or inoculation. Let me just make an example. Let’s say I, and it’s true, I feel pretty irritated when I’m interrupted, whether in speaking conversationally.

As well as just sort of, like, you’re doing a thing. It’s like, I’m doing a thing, and then there’s an interruption, like a knock on the door. It’s like, I am kind of flustered by such things. And so, that’s just kind of in there, kind of like involuntary.

I remember there was a time, someone knocked on my door, I was in a podcast interview, I actually gasped, like, “Huh!”

And so, if there’s a thing in us, like we find there’s a trigger that we know is not helpful, and here, for me, it’s being interrupted, I’d like to feel more adaptable and less inclined to being flustered upon interruption, what’s my playbook?

Ethan Kross
Well, that gets to the final chapter of the book, and it’s about “How do you go from knowledge to action?” And what I do in that final chapter is I give you a framework for identifying situations you want to target to minimize the emotional impact they have on you. It’s called W.O.O.P, and here’s how it works.

So W.O.O.P. is an acronym. W is wish. What’s your goal? State your goal. Maybe for you it’s to not be perturbed every time you’re disturbed. The first O, that’s an outcome. Okay, well, what’s the outcome that will come about if you are successful in accomplishing this goal? “Well, I’ll be more emotionally healthy and maybe I’ll have better interpersonal relationships.” The point of that first O, focusing on the outcome, is to really energize you, to put in the motivation to achieve this goal.

Now let’s get to the second O, which is obstacle, “What are the personal obstacles that may stand in the way of me achieving this goal? Well, I just have this automatic reaction when someone disturbs me. I just, I can’t take it. It affects me to my core.” Okay, now we at least know what the problem is. Let’s get to the final element of this framework, the P, which is the plan, but it’s not any plan. It’s called an if-then plan.

If I’m disturbed and I find myself going to that dark, dark place that Pete goes to when he’s disturbed, then, and then you plug in what you’re going to do. And what you’re going to do is use one of the 20 or 30 shifters you’ve just learned about, and maybe a combination of them to stay calm in that moment, to broaden your perspective, so that you can achieve your goal.

If we were actually training for you to achieve this goal, I would have you write those different elements down, maybe once, maybe twice, and have you read them over a few times. Research shows that this framework is incredibly useful for allowing people to achieve all sorts of goals because what it does is it systematically targets each of the impediments of goal pursuit and it nips them in the bud from the start.

This framework has been applied with older adults to help them with emotional and health goals. It’s also been applied to kids as young as first graders who are trying to improve the way they achieve. This also happens to be a framework that is mightily similar to what one of the most successful organizations in the world uses before complex engagements, i.e. the Navy SEALs.

The Navy SEALs do something very, very similar when they’re planning a mission, “What’s our goal? If we achieve this goal, what is going to happen? What are the obstacles that might stand in the way? And then for every obstacle, we’re going to come up with three to five different specific plans, so we’re virtually never caught off guard.”

Now, we can’t plan for everything, and the good news is that if you are caught off guard, you still have knowledge of these other tools we’ve been talking about to fill in the blanks.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, Ethan, tell me, any final shifter you want to make sure to get out there before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Ethan Kross
You know, I think we covered a lot. We covered senses, we covered attention, we covered some perspective-taking, we covered people. Physical environments, get a healthy dose of nature, put some pictures of loved ones around your office to give you an emotional boost when you need it. Yeah, I think we’ve covered a bunch of it. We’ll leave a little bit more for people to discover.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. Well, now can you share a favorite quote?

Ethan Kross
“This too shall pass.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Ethan Kross
The study I talk about in chapter one, which tracked newborns and through adulthood, they’re still being tracked, and found that the ability to manage one’s emotions in childhood predicts all sorts of great things later in life. But even more importantly, that capacity is not fixed. It’s malleable. You can get better or worse at managing your emotions, which I love that finding because it really speaks to the agentic side of what we’re talking about, that your destiny is really in your own hands.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Ethan Kross
I’ll give you two. One is pretty common, “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frankl. And, in a different direction when it comes to fiction, “The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite Ethan original nugget or soundbite that people are vibing with?

Ethan Kross
If you experience negative emotions, there’s nothing wrong with you, there is everything right with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Ethan Kross
www.EthanKross.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Ethan Kross
Learn about the tools that are out there for managing your emotions. Leading other people, I think, starts with leading yourself. The tools that I talk about, decades of research, hard work went into identifying them, but the take-homes are really, really simple and straightforward. So, learn about those tools, practice them to find the tools, the combinations that work best for you, and share them with other people.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Ethan, thank you.

Ethan Kross
Thank you so much. Always a pleasure, Pete.

Apr 14
0

1049: What Dyslexia Can Teach Us About Creativity, Problem Solving, and Critical Thinking with Kate Griggs

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Kate Griggs discusses the untapped power of dyslexic thinking—and how professionals everywhere can harness it.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why dyslexia matters for everyone in the workplace
  2. The surprising indicators that you may be dyslexic
  3. How anyone can develop dyslexic thinking skills 

About Kate

Kate is a proud dyslexic thinker and has dedicated her career to shifting the narrative on Dyslexia and educating people on its strengths. She has written two best-selling books on Dyslexic Thinking, published by Penguin: This Is Dyslexia and Xtraordinary People, and has shared her wealth of expertise in Made By Dyslexia’s free training courses for schools and workplaces on Microsoft Learn and LinkedIn Learning. She is one of LinkedIn’s Top Voices and is also the host of the chart-topping podcast, Lessons In Dyslexic Thinking, and the presenter on the University of Dyslexic Thinking DyslexicU courses.

Her innovative approach to social change and advocacy has garnered global recognition, with major publications including BBC Morning Live, This Morning, and Harvard Business Review covering her efforts. Her powerful TED talk has also inspired countless individuals and organizations to rethink how they perceive Dyslexia.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Kate Griggs Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Kate, welcome!

Kate Griggs
Thank you. It’s great to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat. We’re over a thousand episodes into this series, and not once have we had an episode on dyslexia. So, I would love to start by putting you on the spot and tell us, why should the average, you know, knowledge working professional give thought and attention to understanding dyslexia and its impact at work?

Kate Griggs
Well, for several reasons. Firstly, dyslexia is one in five.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Kate Griggs
So, it’s 20% of us in every workplace will be dyslexic. A lot of dyslexics won’t know that they’re dyslexic, though, because it isn’t routinely picked up at school. So, a lot of people discover through their kids, where maybe their children are having struggles at school. But the reason it’s really important that you should know about it is that dyslexic people have exactly the skills that our AI world of work needs.

So, we index very highly on all of the soft skills or power skills that we’re now beginning to call them. So, things like creative thinking, complex problem solving, interpersonal skills, innovation, all of those things are things that dyslexics are naturally really, really good at. So, it’s important that you recognize those skills and lean into them as a dyslexic person.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s an intriguing setup right there. Thank you. So, if one in five of us have it, and yet very rarely is it diagnosed. How do we know? Are we one of those five? How do we determine that?

Kate Griggs
When you know about dyslexia, it’s actually quite easy to spot. Dyslexic people have what I describe as a spiky profile. So, with a normal cognitive profile, people are sort of in one either average or above average or below average across most things. Dyslexic people have things that they are exceptionally good at.

So, they’ll be in the top percentiles, but they’ll also have things that they’re exceptionally bad at, which is in the bottom percentiles. And those things are the things that we tend to measure intelligence with. Certainly, exams and tests at school and a lot of psychometric tests are based on our kryptonite, if you like. Whereas, the superpowers that dyslexics have are these soft skills of creativity.

So, you can spot a dyslexic person if they appear to be really, really brilliant at something, but then their work, their written work just doesn’t give you the same indication. So, that’s a really easy way of spotting a dyslexic colleague. But also, if you’re a dyslexic person, it’s just that you find something is really, really easy and other things really tricky.

And I think the other thing that almost every dyslexic will struggle with throughout life is bad spelling. So, I think if you spot a spelling mistake, think dyslexia.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, you mentioned bad spelling, and I think that’s what most of us, when we hear the word dyslexia, that’s what we’re thinking, it’s like, “Oh, it’s kind of hard to read because letters are mixed up and it’s tricky.” But are there, in fact, sort of multiple varieties or categories or facets associated with dyslexia?

Kate Griggs
There are. The sort of spiky profile that I mentioned, you know, not all dyslexics are going to be bad at the range of things that dyslexics can be bad at, or good at them either. So, I’ll give you an example. My entire family are dyslexic. So, my dad was, my brother is, both my kids are, my husband is as well, and I think we all have a sort of different pattern of strengths and challenges.

So, my husband’s actually really good at spelling because he has a really strong visual memory, so he can visualize a word to spell it. So, he might struggle with some sort of irregular words, but mainly he’s a very good speller. Some dyslexic people can be actually very, very good at math. I am in the camp that is not so great at math. So, your eyes seem to be really good or really bad.

It is a real pattern of strengths and challenges that that’s why it’s important to really understand what you’re good at and do much more of it and delegate what you’re not so good at.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I suppose, or maybe this is my big reveal that I’m dyslexic.

Kate Griggs
That happens a lot, by the way.

Pete Mockaitis
Or, I guess I sort of assumed that all humans had areas in which they had great strengths and yet also great deficiency. So, for example, what comes to mind for me is I can just generate ideas by the boat full. So many ideas it’s overwhelming and I can’t even possibly execute all of them, and so that’s kind of cool and handy.

But on the flip side, I will have a really hard time if someone gives me directions to sort of just, “Oh, go back the way you came.” It’s like, “Oh, that’s not going to work for me.” In the world before ubiquitous Google Maps on smartphones, I got lost kind of a lot.

And I’ll also get lost if I’m even playing a video game like Fortnite, So, does that sound like a dyslexic profile or something else?

Kate Griggs
It does sound like a dyslexic profile. Like I say, it’s a real pattern of strengths, and there’s just irregular things, things that most people are really good at that you really struggle with. And I think it definitely does sound like a dyslexic profile but, I mean, you’d have to tell me more about what you’re bad at, probably, for me to be able to tell you. I’m sure you don’t want to share all that.

Pete Mockaitis
Like, drawing three-dimensional shapes, I am bad at that. I would say processing mail and email, more so just because I find it kind of boring and I have so many exciting ideas I want to run after. Yeah, those are some things I’m bad at.

Kate Griggs
Yeah, if you think of dyslexia is really just a different way of processing information, and the regular way that we process information in work and in education is very much a sort of written format with lots of information coming at you as words, and dyslexic people are not brilliant at that. They have other strengths.

But that’s not to say, if you’re picked up and given good reading instruction, every dyslexic person can read so it isn’t just not being able to read either. But there’s loads and loads of information on our website, or we’ve done some training with LinkedIn that’s free on LinkedIn Learning because we work with LinkedIn to make dyslexic thinking a skill. So, it’s a searchable skill now on LinkedIn. So, there’s lots you can learn and we have our own podcast called Lessons in Dyslexic Thinking. So, if you start learning about it more, you’ll soon understand whether you are or not.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there, what’s perhaps the quickest, easiest way of assessing?

Kate Griggs
We’ve actually got a checklist test on our website, so check that out, because that’s a really good indication as well. I mean, it is just a checklist test, but if it says you’re likely to be dyslexic, then you almost certainly are.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so let’s talk about this dyslexic thinking skills in a moment. First, I’d love to dig into, perhaps, the dangers or the dark side, because, generally, I think there’s vast levels of unawareness to your message and what you’re putting out here, that dyslexia is quite common. And what are the dangers of folks not knowing this and making assessments or judgments or decisions in that darkness?

Kate Griggs
I think the not knowing is a really big cause of low self-esteem. It’s a big cause of people not actually pushing themselves to the jobs and the opportunities that they really should be pushing themselves towards. So, there’s even more of a dark side that we tend not to talk about as a charity because we’re very sort of pro the positivity.

But if you look at children that are excluded from schools, or even straight through into the prisons, very over-representatively high number of people are dyslexic because, particularly, if you are not taught to read and write properly, your trajectory in life is pretty bad. And for a lot of people, particularly from disadvantaged backgrounds, that can be a really big issue.

So, there are some real societal issues of not identifying dyslexic or dyslexic people. But I think the main thing from a personal level is that you can go through life thinking you’re not very good at all sorts of things, and also not realizing the things that you are good at, you’re actually really good at them, and they are dyslexic thinking skills and that’s so important. You just assume, like seeing the big picture, that’s something that dyslexic people are absolutely brilliant at.

So, we solve problems from looking at the big picture, the top down, and that’s just something that we have to do because it’s the way we think, but that’s a hugely vital skill in anything that you do. And we really are better at it than people who are not dyslexic, or most people anyway. So, it’s really just understanding those skills.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you there, certainly. So, if one were to internalize a belief like, “Oh, I’m dumb,” or, “I’m no good at blank,” a broad domain, when, in fact, the truth of the matter is more nuanced. It’s like, “Oh, actually, I have some superpowers over here, and some difficulties over there. But when I compare my difficulties to whatever else seems to be doing just fine with no trouble whatsoever, I might falsely infer that, ‘Oh, I’m just not that bright. I guess certain career opportunities are just not available to me.’”

Kate Griggs
Yeah, and it’s that thing, “I’m not that academic” is one that I hear a lot. But Cambridge University always says that they have a huge number of dyslexics on those PhD programs. So, if you can, you know, dyslexics can get through education and can excel. And I think you’re quite likely to be put off the academic route at an early age when you’re struggling at school.

I had a really, really tough first few years at school, and at sort of eight years old I thought I was really stupid because I couldn’t do what the other kids could do. And there was, no, I wasn’t picked up as dyslexic then, and there was no support for my strengths. And I then went to a new school that was phenomenal, and they instantly picked up I was dyslexic. They gave me incredible support for the things that I was struggling with but also were just interested in, as much interested in what I was good at and really nurtured those strengths.

And I think that’s something, the whole reason I do the work I do, and write the books I write, and do the podcasts I do, is because I really want people to understand, dyslexic people to understand, that they are brilliant, they have a different way of thinking, and it is a phenomenally brilliant way of thinking.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s unpack that. What is this different way of thinking and its advantages and the dyslexic thinking skills?

Kate Griggs
So, as I mentioned before, dyslexic people have, well, according to the World Economic Forum, and according to some research we did with Randstad Enterprise, the foremost sought after skills are creative thinking, communication into interpersonal skills, adaptability rather, and resilience, and complex problem solving. All of those skills are things that dyslexics really excel at.

And I can give you, as well as knowing that they’re the skills that every workplace is looking for, I can give you some real-life examples of where organizations or career routes really fit well into those thinking skills. So, for instance, we work very closely with GCHQ, which is the British intelligence agency. They have actively been recruiting dyslexic spies since they started a hundred years ago.

And the reason that they are actively recruiting dyslexics is because dyslexic people are really good at this sort of complex problem solving and connecting the dots. So, they can connect completely different things together to spot a pattern of communication or to spot a trend, and that’s an intelligence, or the sort of intelligence that GCHQ do, that’s exactly what they do.

They’re looking for cyber-crimes or they’re looking for communication to see where terrorist groups are connecting and planning things. So, they can, dyslexic people are really good at looking and joining up those interconnected things. Forty percent of entrepreneurs are dyslexic and that’s because dyslexic people need to be able to see the big picture, be able to sell their ideas, but also build incredible and motivate incredible teams around them.

So those are two areas where dyslexic people really excel. You also find lots and lots of dyslexic people in things like, surprisingly, journalism, and TV presenting, or communicating, podcast hosts, or YouTube channels, channel hosts. A lot of those people are dyslexic because we’re very good at storytelling. We’re brilliant at simplifying things, sort of seeing really complex issues and simplifying them. So, they’re all skills that we don’t test in schools, and a psychometric test wouldn’t pick up, but they’re really vital skills in every workplace now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, can you help me understand what it is about our brains and the means by which they go, they process, they interact with the world and process information, such that a person with dyslexia will typically struggle with one set of things but excel in the other? Is there a common linkage or big picture factor that kind of illuminates or explains what’s going on here?

Kate Griggs
So, it is, literally, the way our brains process information. So, for instance, dyslexic people, we think holistically, if you like. So, we like to see the big picture, we like to see all of the facts so we can then come down and drill down into how we’re going to do things. Non-dyslexic people tend to think sequentially, so they’ll go step by step by step. Whereas, we need to see “Where is the end? Where does it all join together? And then, let’s come back and go through the process.”

We also are very multi-sensory thinkers. So, when we’re making decisions, doing things, we tend to take in lots of different things, which is what makes us very good with people, because we can read people, we look at cues that maybe other people wouldn’t see. We’re kind of seeing the person as a whole, if you like, and the situation as a whole. So those are two areas. Whereas, probably most people who are not dyslexic may be a little more less multi-sensory, it’s more sort of what you see is what you get and may not be reading the nuances.

Then when it comes to the struggles, we tend to have problems with our working memory. So, if you think of memory as a shelf and you’re putting books onto the shelf, so if you’ve got lots of books on the shelf, that is a real problem for dyslexic people because we tend to focus on one, two, or three, and then we’ve forgotten those one, two, or three as you get onto the next one.

So, that’s when you’re, if you’re giving a dyslexic person lots of commands, and saying, “Right, I want you to do this and then do that and there’s something else and something else,” you tend to kind of lose where you’ve got to. An example of that would be if somebody gives you directions. Thank God for Google Maps.

But when somebody gives you directions, that are like, “Go down the road, and you turn right, and then you walk for 10 minutes, and you turn left, and it’s the first next, left, the next right.” I mean, but I’m kind of thinking, “Hang on a minute, I get to the end of the road and am I supposed to go right or left?” because I’m trying to remember what they said next, and I’ve forgotten them.

But if I see a map, I can visualize where I need to go. So, it’s just a different way of processing the instructions versus looking at something which is as clear as daylight to me where I need to be going. So, it’s that kind of thing. And dyslexic thinking, actually, was put into the dictionary as a noun back in 2022 when it was also added as a skill on LinkedIn.

And the dictionary definition for dyslexic thinking is an approach to problem solving, assessing information and learning often used by people with dyslexia that involves pattern recognition, spatial reasoning, lateral thinking, and interpersonal communication. So, that, in a dictionary definition, sums up what dyslexic thinking is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so, yeah, let’s hear some examples of cool stories of people with dyslexia working their strengths and skills to achieve great results.

Kate Griggs
So, a great resource for cool stories is my podcast, Lessons in Dyslexic Thinking. We’re just, next week, about to release our third series. The first person that I interviewed for the third series is Erin Brockovich, the amazing campaigner who featured in that film of her life, which Julia Roberts acted as her.

Dyslexic people do tend to make really brilliant changemakers. We don’t like the status quo. We love a challenge. If you tell us something can’t be done, it just makes us really want to do it. And you often find that we have a really strong sense of justice and right and wrong. Erin tells the most amazing story about how she, basically, she kind of worked her way into a job that she was completely unqualified for as a legal clerk working for a law firm in California.

And I think the guy who hired her actually felt sorry for her because she was a single mom and she needed some money. So, he gave her a chance and gave her a job, and basically said, “You know, go do this filing. Just, here’s loads of boxes. Just go and do the filing.” And she opened up this box that was all Hinkley, the place that we know she went on to do the big lawsuit against.

And she looked through all the files, and she could see a pattern of things going wrong and health issues for all of the residents in Hinkley. She was supposed to be just putting the filing away and just sticking things into drawers but she started looking at everything that was there, and she’s got a really amazing visual memory.

And she could see that there were these children were getting sick and things were going wrong. So, she went to her boss, and said, “Look, I’m looking at this, and I think there’s a really big issue here.” And he said, “Look, you’re supposed to be a filing clerk. You need to just file things away.” And she was so dogged because she could see there was something wrong.

And, eventually, her boss let her go out to Hinkley to meet the people and understand what was going on. And from that, from her spotting a pattern in the paperwork that she saw that something was going wrong, she then went and found out about all of the things that were happening in Hinkley, and the fact that the big company was poisoning the water. And saw that right through to the end until they got the biggest legal claim in American history. So, that was somebody who had no qualifications, was incredibly determined, and really wanted to make a difference.

Another amazing story, actually, in the last series, I interviewed Bob Ballard, who is the explorer who discovered the Titanic, and he talks about how he was on, he was doing a project for the Navy, and he was out at sea, and he’d been looking for the Titanic for ages and ages, but he was actually doing another project, and it was in the area that they thought the Titanic was.

And he just got a sense that the Titanic was exactly where he was in the ocean, and he persuaded his team to dive. And they were all saying, “Look, there’s no evidence here.” And he said, “Look, I just know it’s here. I sense it. I feel it. I’m putting all these things together. It’s here.” And they did a very, very deep dive and, sure enough, found the Titanic. So, that’s using intuition and actually putting interconnected pieces together.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. And with the Titanic and the Erin Brockovich story, it is very effective in highlighting the unique ability that can also lead to social difficulty. It’s like, “What do you mean you know the Titanic is here?” And then, like, I could see how, in many circumstances, what happens is, “Oh, we don’t go searching for the Titanic. We go and say, ‘That guy has a screw loose,’” or some sort of demeaning, unfair judgment or characterization. Or, “No, this is not your job. Go ahead and continue filing the things.”

It’s seeing something that others don’t is already a cause for potential social rebuke or isolation. And then it’s not too hard to believe, “Oh, I guess I just don’t know, and they would know better. They’re the lawyers, they’re the divers and explorers.” And so, I see that pattern, how that could very easily unfold there.

Kate Griggs
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it’s having that understanding work environment, where people will allow you to make those leaps of reasoning. I was talking to, also on my podcast, I’ve talked to the former director, actually, of GCHQ, and we talked to spies at GCHQ as well, and they have something called the 24/7 center.

And that’s where you have a series, lots of spies, actually sitting there, looking at communications right around the world. So, from emails to, I mean, it’s amazing how people spy on us, isn’t it? But it’s a good thing in this instance, stopping cybercrime and terrorist attacks. But they look at right across social media to look at seeing if they can find patterns.

And in the 24/7 center, what happens if you think you’ve seen something, you then go to your boss, and say, “Right, this is what I’m seeing. I’m seeing a whole pattern of things happening here.” And because they need to act quickly, and it needs to be an instant, “Okay, there’s a problem. We need to stop it,” they don’t have to do what you would normally have to do in the workplace, which is, “Okay, I get where you’re going with this but go away and tell me how you’ve actually made those connections. I need to see the process behind how you’ve made those connections.”

They don’t have to do that because they are well-enough qualified and experienced enough to know that if they see a pattern, there’s a problem. They need to do something about it. And I think what’s frustrating for so many dyslexic people is that until we have the confidence to really believe in our abilities, we can see patterns, we can spot things, we can see opportunities in businesses and things.

But, often, other people can’t see those things until we explain how we got there and we often can’t explain how we got there. It’s just a sense or we’ve put some thoughts together, two plus two equals ten. And often, it’s very frustrating and until your teammates understand your strengths and you really understand them yourselves.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so, how do we build on those strengths, these skills?

Kate Griggs
First thing is to learn about them. So, as I mentioned, we have free training for the workplace. We actually have free training for teachers in schools. We have the podcast. We have a whole series of information on our website. So, the first thing is to learn about them. I also have two books. I have a children’s book which is being released on the 27th of March on Dorling Kindersley, and I have a book on Penguin called This is Dyslexia, which is out at the moment.

And that will teach you lots and lots about dyslexia and dyslexic thinking as well. And once you start unravelling it and learning about it, you’ll either spot it in yourself or you’ll definitely spot in colleagues and friends around you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, any top tips, do’s or don’ts, you want to share before we hear about your favorite things?

Kate Griggs
If you’re a dyslexic person, don’t spend time trying to get better at your weaknesses. Delegation is the key to everything. And every successful person, dyslexic or not, has learned that delegating what they’re not so good at is the best way to be productive. So, lean into your strengths 100% and be open about your strengths and your challenges with others.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kate Griggs
When we did our first report, “The Value of Dyslexia,” with EY. The then CEO of EY said, “You wouldn’t employ Superwoman and tell her how bad she was with kryptonite. You’d make sure that you told her how brilliant she was with all the things that she was good at.” So, I think that’s probably my favorite quote, and I try and live by that. I try not to do my kryptonite.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kate Griggs
We’ve just done an amazing report called Intelligence 5.0. It came out, we launched it during UN General Assembly week, at the time we launched the University of Dyslexic Thinking, which is a short course university on Open University. The Intelligence 5.0 report is full of incredible, incredible insights, research from all over the world, but also really leans into the fact that the way that we’re testing and measuring in schools is completely outdated in an AI world.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Kate Griggs
A book I read many years ago, which sort of started me on my journey of really understanding dyslexic thinking, was Dan Pink’s A Whole New Mind. It’s old now but I love that book.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Kate Griggs
I try and just have a few minutes of calm every day, whether it’s sitting in the garden, taking in nature and listening to the bird sounds, but just trying to take five minutes a day to do nothing and clear your mind.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Kate Griggs
Do what you’re good at. Do what you love. Find your passion. Do what you love, because that will take you far in life, whatever it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kate Griggs
Kate Griggs, you can find me on LinkedIn. I’m a top voice on LinkedIn. MadeByDyslexia.org is our website. And both my books are available in all good bookstores, but also on Amazon, so, This is Dyslexia and Xtraordinary People, for kids.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kate Griggs
I think, for every dyslexic, just learn, really, really learn about your dyslexic thinking skills, and understand what they are, and add that you are a dyslexic thinker to your LinkedIn profile because companies are now actively looking for dyslexic thinkers. And if you don’t add it as a skill, they won’t be able to find you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Kate, thank you.

Kate Griggs
Thank you very much. Great to join you.

Apr 10
0

1048: Transforming Insecurities into Strength and Action with Margie Warrell

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Margie Warrell explores how to build the courage to move beyond fear and unlock new possibilities.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to identify your insecurities and overcome them
  2. The two dimensions of courage
  3. How to take action despite your fear

About Margie

Margie Warrell is a five-time best-selling author, keynote speaker, leadership coach, and Forbes columnist. With twenty-five years of experience living and working around the world, she has dedicated her life to helping others overcome fear and unlock their potential.

From her humble beginnings on a small farm in rural Australia to her former role as a Senior Partner at Korn Ferry and Advisory Board member for the Forbes School of Business & Technology, Margie has learned that courage is essential for every worthwhile endeavor. A mother of four and an advocate for women’s empowerment, she inspires others to live bravely and refuse to settle in any aspect of life.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Margie Warrell Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Margie, welcome!

Margie Warrell
Great to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m super excited to hear your perspectives on courage. And I want to start by hearing, what’s one of the most surprising and fascinating and counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about courage in your career and researching this matter?

Margie Warrell
Ah, it’s probably that courage is not always about stepping bravely forward, putting yourself out there, saying a big yes and climbing out onto the far limb. Sometimes courage is saying no, sitting still, doing nothing, and reconnecting, disconnecting, pressing pause on all the doing and the bold acts of bravery, and just reconnecting with who we’re being, and being still and being unproductive. That is, sometimes, even more challenging and requires even more courage than being busily in action.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. Could you share with us a story that illustrates that?

Margie Warrell
Well, look, I’ll share from my own life. So, I am someone who has a bias for action. I am someone who tends to be an Energizer bunny, sort of productive, productive, doing, doing, doing, doing. That’s almost my comfort zone is to be out there, furiously working hard, and doing a lot of things and juggling many balls. And that can be, in some ways, affirming of a sense of identity, and I’m in action.

And so, for me, over the years, is recognizing that there is actually a deep-seated fear of slowing down and doing nothing because, “Well, what if I become lazy? What if I never achieve anything again? What if this means I’m amount to nothing? What if…?” And so, just looking at where fear is pulling the strings and sometimes pushing me into the state of doing and busyness, and actually confronting that and going, “You know what, I don’t have to do more to be worthy. I don’t have to achieve more to be worthy. I am worthy.”

And, actually, right now, the most valuable thing for me to do is to just sit and pause and get really present and grounded in who I am and what I’m about rather than being in action. And then that enables me to then actually upgrade my action so that when I go back into action, I’m far more aligned, have far more clarity, much more intentional about what I’m doing. So, does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, intriguing. And I’d love if you could share a little bit more in terms of what are the scariest things that may be lurking for us in the solitude, in the quiet, in that silence?

Margie Warrell
Well, we have to come face to face with just like who we are at the deepest place because it’s easy, busyness can be a great tool for distraction. When we’re busy, it almost can be addictive because it can be feeding us and giving us a sense of significance. And, I mean, we all want to feel significant in our lives. To be human is to want to feel significant in some way. And we can achieve that through healthy means and we can achieve it through unhealthy means.

And I think that the busyness can provide that sense of, sort of like, “Oh, you know, look at all that I’m doing.” And people are going, “Wow, aren’t you doing a lot?” And so, the confronting part of just pressing pause on that is to go, “Who am I if I’m not doing that? And what are the deepest fears that are sometimes lurking there out of immediate line of sight?”

And I think, for many of us, there’s a deep-seated fear of being unworthy, of being judged and found wanting, “You are not smart enough. You are not clever, capable, experienced, intelligent, educated, likable, lovable, leader-like enough,” insert something before the word enough. And I think it’s part of the deep work of growing into who we can become to kind of pull back the covers on those fears.

Because they’re not always obvious but they can pull invisible strings that shape how we show up, how we speak up, the presence that we give to other people, how we lead, whether or not we are in tapping into our own intuitive sense of what’s going on around us and what’s going on for the people around us so that we can speak into their listening and be someone that builds trust and others come to count on  for the integrity and the character and the courage that we bring to situations, but not always loud courage, sometimes quiet courage.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you say enough, I always wonder, enough for what?

Margie Warrell
Yeah, enough. Enough of what gives us a sense of innate worthiness.

Pete Mockaitis
Enough to have worthiness.

Margie Warrell
And so, yeah, when people say enough, that can be many things, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, enough for your life to, fundamentally, have value.

Margie Warrell
Yeah, for you to have value.

Pete Mockaitis
A human being identity.

Margie Warrell
Yeah, and I think that can be, we can carry sometimes a sense of inadequacy in that we’re flawed, fallible in some way. And of course, let’s face it, we are all flawed and we are all fallible in some way. None of us are, get a 10 out of 10 on every category. That is part of the human condition, right? And so, my experience for myself, but also working with people, many whom have achieved incredible success, there’s often this insecurity in them that can be driving and driving, and actually can drive them to be work really hard and achieve amazing things.

But actually, they get to a level and that insecurity, if they haven’t done the inner work required to make peace with their vulnerabilities, to heal those childhood wounds, then that insecurity actually can cap them and ultimately can be a saboteur.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I would love to get your pro take. You’ve been working with many CEOs of large organizations with your time at Korn Ferry and your own work. So, just for funsies, could you share with us, roughly what percent of super high-achieving, big-deal executives have substantial levels of insecurity?

Margie Warrell
Well, substantial is a big word. But what percentage of high-achieving executives have some insecurity? I don’t want to say 100%, but I would say close to it because we all have something in us that can feel insecure at times. We all have moments of feeling insecure. None of us are invulnerable to things that can trigger something in us. So, I would say it’s close to 100 % of high-achieving executives have moments where they can feel insecure. But it’s whether they have their insecurities or their insecurities have them.

And so, when you use the word substantial insecurities, well, then that’s where, obviously, there’s a lot of insecurities that are running them versus them going, “Yeah, I’ve got this thing. This can make me feel insecure, but I’m self-aware enough.” And that’s where that self-awareness is so crucial to being a great leader, to being an effective executive, because we aren’t being governed by our insecurities and our fears.

And, of course, our fears don’t always show up as, “Oh, I’m really nervous. I’m so scared I’m going to mess this up.” You know, it’s not necessarily paralysis, it’s not panic, it’s not outward, overt self-doubt. More often, those insecurities can show up as intellectualizing emotions, being controlling, not delegating downward effectively, micromanaging, second-guessing people, being someone that is not okay with being challenged, so people don’t challenge because they know that this runs a risk.

And so, there’s lots of different ways that our insecurity, and let’s just be clear here, insecurity is just another term for an unfaced fear, an unprocessed fear.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, so you nailed it in terms of that’s what I mean by substantial insecurity, like you have a hard time being wrong or letting someone else shine, or clearly acknowledging humbly, it’s like, “Yeah, you know a lot more about this thing than I do. So, I’m going to let you take over.”

Margie Warrell
Yeah, you bet.

Pete Mockaitis
“And, hey, I like your idea better than mine. Let’s go with yours and forget what I said.”

Margie Warrell
And not just that, but actively seeking that out, too, and saying to people in the room, “Hey, look, I don’t know everything. You know, what is it that I could be missing here?” And actively soliciting people to put forward opinions that may actually contradict or, if not contradict, may not line squarely up with your own.

And when they say those things, that you might actually disagree with, you might actually think they’re wrong. And maybe they’re critical of you and the judgment that you’ve made, that you don’t get defensive, and you go, “Wow, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that.” And that people never have to hesitate to say that. And, to me, that is an indicator of a leader who has done their work, and who is well and truly leading from values and not emotions and not insecurity.

Because no matter what anyone says about them, they don’t get triggered by that, they don’t take offense, “How could you say that?” They’re, like, curious, they’re humble, they’re eager to learn and they listen with an ear to how they could be wrong. And then they always acknowledge when they’ve changed their mind and they share that, and go, “You know, I thought this, but, yeah, I realized I was wrong. I wasn’t factoring in these other things,” and they can share that openly. And there’s a lot of senior executives who are not in a place where they’re able to do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that’s what I’m getting at. I think you’ve painted a lovely picture on what I mean by substantial insecurity versus substantial security. So, could you give us a very rough figure, like, at the top levels, who’s got that substantial insecurity and who doesn’t as a rough percentage?

Margie Warrell
I would say a solid 50%.

Pete Mockaitis
Fifty-fifty, all right.

Margie Warrell
Yeah, I mean, that could vary and it varies in organizations because there’s different cultures. So, I’ve worked in organizations where the culture is very grounded in purpose, and values, and authenticity, and people who posture and who are ego-driven, you know, overtly ego-driven. Their behavior gets, their, like, white bloods, they get ejected out.

Like, they can be really brilliant at what they do. But it’s like, at the end of the day, people are recognizing, “Ah, very ego-driven.” They’re an insecure person, even though they might be brilliant at what they do. And so, then there’s cultures where, “You know what, it’s about what are your numbers? Honestly, we don’t care much about all the other stuff. What are your numbers?”

And sometimes the people who get the best numbers are people who can be massively ego-driven and not the least bit, or very only mildly self-aware. And so, it’s all about, “Hah, who’s winning?Who’s winning? And who can get the biggest number fastest?” And that gets rewarded and that gets promoted.

And so, you end up with an executive bench of people who are all very, very ego-driven, competitive, but not necessarily particularly self-aware.

Whenever executive teams don’t make great decisions, and you see over time, there’s a leakage of value and the organization starts to lose edge and the culture grows, there’s toxic elements to it and disengagement and higher turnover, etc., it’s never because the people on that executive team lack intelligence individually or collectively, that they lack expertise and skill individually or collectively, that they lack access to information and resources.

It is because of the ego, and I’m talking about ego, I’m talking like, “I got to prove that I’m right and you’re wrong,” and there’s a defensiveness and it’s that insecurity at play because that undermines the dynamics in the team, and it undermines the quality of decision-making. There is not open, candid conversations. There is silos. There is protecting of information. There is a whole lot of conversations going on outside of the room. There is not good upward and sideways feedback.

And all of those factors at play, they are what create this slow leakage of value that, over time, you see organizations start to lose edge. And so, yeah, it’s not that they don’t know what to do, it’s that they’re not doing what they know.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, this reminds me, we had Pat Lencioni on the show and talking about smart versus healthy with regard to teams and dynamics and how it’s, a lot of times they got the know-how, but in terms of the courage and going there and having those conversations, it’s great.

So, it sounds like we’re pretty strong on the case here for how having more courage will help you be more awesome at your job with regard to just feeling good, facing down those monsters, as well as better teamwork, etc. Any other key things you’d put forward in terms of the case for why professionals would be better off with an extra dose of courage?

Margie Warrell
Well, let me just share, there’s two core dimensions to courage. And we often focus in on the field of fear and do it anyway, “Be bold. Take a risk. Put yourself out there. Set a bold vision. Have the crucial conversations. Take those risks for yourself, professionally,” in terms of then leading how you manage others.

But what we often fail to factor in is the second dimension of courage, and that is the regulation of our fear, the management of our anxious thinking. Because courage is action in the presence of fear and the presence of risks, real or perceived, but often we’re more afraid than we need to be. And right now, it’s a perfect case in point.

There are a lot of people right now who are feeling incredibly anxious because there is immense uncertainty. Yes, there is a new administration in the White House. There has been massive disruption. The markets are volatile. People are worried about the future. But you know what? There’s always been uncertainty. We’ve always had disruption. And, yes, it may feel like, “Oh, no, but not like this.” But these times have come before and they’ve gone before.

And so, a lot of the time we are victim to what’s called certainty bias. When we look back at the past, we know how the story ended, so we go, “No, it wasn’t like this,” because we don’t know how the story is going to end. But five years from now, we’re going to look back on this moment right now and go, “Oh, well, you know, it worked out,” and because there’s going to be new uncertainty.

So, often people are feeling more anxious than they need to be, and anxiety magnifies our perceptions of risk. And people pull back and they triple on what they can control and they try and find certainty so they get really short-sighted, and then they fail to take the very actions that would actually expand future possibilities, that would grow and accelerate learning curves, so that they’d be in a better position for whatever unfolds out the other side of this disruption, whether that’s Gen AI, whether that’s regulatory policy changing, etc.

And so, I think it’s just so important for people to realize it’s not just about, “Be brave. Just put yourself out there.” It’s also going, “Where am I scaring myself because of how I am perceiving all of the risks and all the uncertainty and all the unknowns? And where am I being a little short-sighted and not looking far enough ahead to the horizon and go, what is it that I could be doing right now that will put me in a better position, one, three, five years from now?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you share with us what are some of your favorite tips, tricks, interventions, actions, things to do to get more courage?

Margie Warrell
Well, obviously in The Courage Gap, I talk about five key principles for closing that gap between what we could do and what we actually do, between our insight and the impact we make for ourselves, for others. And the first one of those principles is focusing on what it is that you want, what is the highest outcome you want to achieve.

And that could be, right now, today, “With an employee, my boss, a co-worker, I’m having a difficult time with. There’s a lot of frustration. Maybe I’m feeling really resentful toward them. Maybe I’m feeling underappreciated.” So, ask yourself, what is your highest intention for that relationship? Or, if it’s your career, “What is my highest intention for my career over the next one year, three years, five, 10?”

Because, if we’re not clear about what it is we want, our vision and our values, then our attention is going to be held captive by what it is we don’t want, because fear is a really potent emotion. We naturally gravitate to the negatives, to what’s wrong, to what we can’t do, to what we hope won’t happen.

And so, there is a huge power that we unlock within ourselves, but also it expands our field of vision of what actions we can take when we connect to what it is we do want and what our highest intention is, what our ultimate outcome is, because what we focus on expands. Energy multiplies by a factor of what our attention is on.

And so, that is a key principle. And many people don’t realize how much of their time and how much of their energy and how many of their conversations are all about what is wrong, and what can’t be done, and what shouldn’t happen, and what a pain their boss is, or what a pain this colleague is, versus “What can they do? What do they have? What do they want? How can they work better with this colleague? How can they help foster a better relationship with their boss?”

And the way I could go about doing that versus kind of being stuck in either a self-pity, you know, feeling like a bit of a victim or getting stuck into a blame like, “Ugh,” or just having a story that we are powerless to improve our situation, which is never true. And the biggest way we disempower ourselves is telling ourselves we can’t do anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say highest intention, you mean highest in the sense of most noble and in fulfillment of our deepest, most important values, as opposed to just a really big achievement, like high, like Mount Everest high.

Margie Warrell
The two don’t have to be mutually exclusive. So, you can have a really high intention to live a life of adventure and do amazing things, and that means you want to climb Mount Everest. But it also could mean, “I want to have a really good relationship with the people on my team. I want to do what I can to be the kind of person that I would want to work with.” But the highest intention, whatever it is, it has to align with our deepest values. So, what are your deepest values that want to define you and how you live your life?

And it’s funny you mentioned, you know, climbing a mountain. Several years back, I climbed Mount Kilimanjaro with my husband and our four teenage children, which was a pretty bold, audacious undertaking at the time because we lived at sea level in Australia. We didn’t go mountain climbing on weekends for fun because there weren’t any mountains near us. And so, it was pretty bold to kind of go, “All right, let’s do this.”

But one of my kids, Ben, said, “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool to climb Mount Kilimanjaro for dad’s 50th birthday?” He did this whole PowerPoint deck. He rallied the whole family behind this vision of climbing to the rooftop of Africa for dad’s 50th, “Our family will always remember it.” So, we created an intention for, as a family, right, to do this thing that would be so cool. There was a chance we weren’t going to get to the top. The altitude can really take a toll on our bodies, particularly younger bodies. My youngest was 13 at the time, but that intention to do that is what kind of galvanized our collective resolve to go, “Let’s try.”

And as it was, we did make it to the top of Kilimanjaro. It was a really tough day, but our intention will always align with some value. I mean, I have no desire to climb Mount Everest after climbing Kilimanjaro, but for us as a family, like this would be a really cool thing to do as a family. That was a value.

But for some people, it could be, “I want to just build a business that contributes to my community, that serves the needs of these customers, these people in my local geography,” or maybe it’s to do something that’s on a global scale, but there’s still a value that it’s aligned with. But for people listening to this, I know for me, professionally, I have always wanted to do work that aligned with, one, yes, my value to make an impact for others, to help others live their purpose, to use their talents for the greater good, but also to use my talents in a way that honors those talents.

And so, we all have different talents. People, we come out of the womb with different gifts and, yes, we have to hone them. But so it could be that you just really want to do something that lights you up. You’re leveraging your strengths fully. We thrive the most when we are leveraging our strengths in service of something that’s meaningful to us versus something that’s purely superficial. And while when we’re younger, sometimes it is superficial. As we go through life, people who thrive the most are doing things, they’re working hard toward meaningful goals.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and I guess that’s what I’m zeroing in on when I say highest intention is it’s like, you could have, maybe you want to build a business to prove everyone wrong, “They thought I couldn’t do it. Look at me now.” Or it’s like, “I want to have a sick Lamborghini.” So, these are things that motivate some people. But I’m guessing that if we dig deeper into values work, those wouldn’t be, in fact, the highest intention that have the most potency for boosting the courage.

Margie Warrell
Well, look, and if you love cars and you want to have a Lamborghini, like, great, knock yourself out and work hard for that Lamborghini. I’m not a car person myself, but if your sense of security and identity is coming from sources outside of yourself, then you will always feel a little insecure. Because once you’ve got that Lamborghini and you drive it right up the main street of town and you’ve got the music blaring and you’re making sure everyone’s looking at you, and they’re like, “Wow, you’ve got a Lamborghini.” It’s like, “Great, it feels good. Like, yeah. See? See my Lamborghini?”

But, okay, after a while, it gets a little, it wears off. We habituate to, “Okay, now what do I have to do?” Because it’s a cup with a hole in the bottom. It’s never going to fill up if your sense of worth and value has to be externally validated all the time. And that’s not to say, it’s natural to want to have external validation. I love external validation.

But if that’s what our identity is built on, it’s going to be built on a house of cards because, you know, what happens if you lose your Lamborghini? What happens if you lose all your money? That can happen. That does happen to people. And so, I think we have to be really careful about where our sense of identity comes from. And there is no greater source of identity than being really living in alignment with our values. It is got to be an internally sourced identity versus externally validated all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we’ve got five principles. The first is the highest intention. What’s the next?

Margie Warrell
Second is re-scripting the narratives that are keeping you stuck, stressed, or living too safely. So, of course, we all tell ourselves stories all the time, like, “Oh, it’s a nice day out there today.” As it is, while I’m talking to you, I can see the cherry blossoms coming out here in North Virginia. But sometimes our stories get in our way and keep us from doing the very things that would serve us.

So, our stories can stoke up our fear. They can make us feel more stressed like, you know, we tell ourselves stories, “Oh, it’s the end of the world,” “I’m never going to get another job,” “I’m too old.” There’s a lot, I’m surrounded by people who use even language, “It’s a nightmare situation. I’m never going to be able to figure this out.”

And so, they make themselves feel more stressed than they need to be. But sometimes our stories can give us air cover for living too safely, for going, “Oh, well, you know, it’s not so bad. And everybody else has got it worse than me. Or, at least I’ve got a job.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but are you happy in your job?” “Yeah, but at least it pays the bills.” I’m like, “Come on, like life’s short.” And so, we can often tell ourselves stories that keep us from taking the very actions we’re wholly capable of taking.

Sometimes we tell ourselves lies. We call them vital lies, the soothing myths, truths that spare us from having to look at ourself and go, “What is the price I’m paying for the story that I’m telling myself? It’s making me feel okay in the moment, but it’s actually keeping me stuck. It’s actually keeping me from connecting in more meaningful ways with other people, or making a change that I know deep, deep down, I really need to make because I’m not feeling a sense of purpose. I’m not feeling like I’m living the life I want to be living?”

And so, just recognizing that if your stories aren’t making you feel more powerful, like they’re not empowering you, if they’re not aligning with something that gives you a sense of meaning and purpose, and if they’re not making you feel more positive about your future, then your stories are working against you.

And I often say to people, like, “Tell me, what’s your ultimate vision of success?” And then they’ll go, “Well…” And when they let themselves really connect with that vision and they focus on what they want, I’m like, “Well, what story would you need to be telling yourself for that to become your reality?” because our beliefs are the software of behavior. Everything we do is belief-driven. So, what’s the story that you need to tell yourself so that you’ll take the actions to create the outcomes you want?

And if you’re feeling stuck in your career or you’re feeling like you’re hitting your head against a wall, I would just say to you, like, “What’s the story you’ve been telling yourself? And what emotions does that create? Where is that keeping you playing too small? Where is that keeping you stuck in excuses? Where is that keeping you showing up in a more diminutive way than really serves you? And so, what’s another story you could tell and re-script that story? Because you create your stories, but your stories then create you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And the third principle?

Margie Warrell
The third principle is about embodying courage and connecting to the sources of courage within us, but also around us in our relationships with others. And often we don’t recognize how we’re moving through the world in an anxious state. John Wooden, the great iconic basketball coach, once said, “It’s not about how tall you are. It’s about how tall you play.”

And often we don’t realize how much fear is trapped in our bodies, keeping us from showing up, stepping up, speaking up, walking into a room in a way that not only changes how others perceive us, but changes how we perceive ourselves. Some great research out of the Kellogg School of Business that found that postural expansiveness literally shifts how people perceive us, as well as how we perceive ourselves, regardless of our actual status on an organization chart. And so, just stand tall and take a deep breath and reset your nervous system, named a nervous system for reason at that ground level, and, likewise, connect with people around you who make you feel braver, who help to quell the doubts versus to feed them.

 

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And the fourth?

Margie Warrell
That’s about stepping into discomfort and really resetting our relationship with discomfort. All of us are wired to want to avoid what’s uncomfortable, but the more willing you are to do uncomfortable things and embracing discomfort, embracing the growing pains, it actually will expand your behavioral repertoire to do the very things that are going to set you up for success.

And there is a lot to be said for recognizing that our fear constricts what we do. And the more we’re willing to get comfortable, practice getting comfortable being uncomfortable, then it expands us to do all sorts of things. Because when you’re willing to feel anything, it emboldens you for everything.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And the fifth?

Margie Warrell
And the fifth is all about making peace with our failures and making peace with ourselves for failing to show up as the person we most want to be sometimes because no one is brave all the time. And the more we can be kind to ourselves in those moments when we either try something and fail, or we fail to try, and that little inner Chicken Little wins out, then the quicker we’ll be able to pick ourselves up, to dust ourselves off, to learn the lessons that our failures and our mistakes hold, and then to move forward more wisely.

And for those who are listening who can be really hard on themselves, I think this final step which is about finding the treasure when you trip can be the most, the biggest unlock because we’re so often really hard on ourselves. And when you’re really hard on yourself, it doesn’t make you braver. It actually makes you live a little smaller and hold back from taking the very risks that would serve you most.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s talk about the rescripting narratives for a bit. Could you give us a common narrative that you’ve seen hold folks back and an example of a finer script to replace it?

Margie Warrell
Yes. So, as people are moving up in their careers, often they’ll look at management, the leadership, and it’s them, they over there, you know, “They don’t care. They have no idea what’s going on. They’re just, you know, they’re all so disconnected and removed from what it’s really like to try and run this business at the ground level and deal with the clients, etc.”

And so, there’s this kind of othering of those people in management, those who are on the executive team. And the reality is those people were once in your shoes, and sometimes people become the they, and they realize, “You know, if only management…” I’m like, “You are management. You are the they, like this is you.”

But wherever you sit on your career trajectory and on some org chart, recognizing that you have the power to be a leader at every level. And so, rescripting it about how you see yourself in your own power, like, “I am a leader. I have the ability to influence change here. And, sure, I mightn’t have as much as the person at the top, but I have the ability to lead change in the sphere of influence in my workplace every day.” So, that’s one re-script.

Another key one I hear people talking about is other people and saying things like, “Ugh, they’re so intimidating. They don’t care,” and they create negative narratives, and maybe there’s some evidence to support them. But when it comes to saying someone is intimidating or something, “That person is an a-hole,” or something like that, ask yourself instead, “What is it that’s going on in me that needs me to judge them? That person’s going to be how that person’s going to be, but how do I choose to show up?”

So, I choose to show up as someone who is empowered and is focused on bringing value regardless of how the behavior of others around me, and by reclaiming kind of the power that I get to choose how I show up, regardless of what other people are doing. And that often when we call other people intimidating, actually they’re not intimidating. It’s the story you’re telling yourself about them that’s making you feel intimidated. It’s got nothing to do with them. It’s got everything to do with you. So, yeah, there’s a couple of examples right there. I hope that’s of value.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, thank you. Well, tell me, Margie, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Margie Warrell
Well, I would simply say if there’s something that’s causing you stress right now, that just keeps coming up again and again, maybe in different clothes, but it’s just a recurring issue, in there, lays your greatest growth. In there is an un-face fear, there is fear in some form that’s kept you from addressing it more effectively.

Maybe taking ownership for something that you’re doing that’s contributing to it, that you’d rather blame it on everyone else. But recognizing that those things that test you the most, also teach you the most and can be the catalyst for your highest growth and transformation.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Margie Warrell
Anais, Nin, “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one’s courage.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Margie Warrell
My favorite study is the work of Amy Edmondson out of Harvard on psychological safety, and that it’s the teams that report the most mistakes that are actually the highest performing because they feel safe enough to be able to share the truth.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Margie Warrell
My favorite book would be The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool you use to be awesome at your job?

Margie Warrell
My daily planner.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Margie Warrell
Reading wisdom literature first thing in the morning over my cup of tea in the early hours to set my intention for the day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a Margie original sound bite or nugget that people quote back to you often?

Margie Warrell
Yes, and that’s “Living bravely is indispensable for living well.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Margie Warrell
They can head over to my website, MargieWarrell.com, or just connect with me on LinkedIn or anywhere that you hang out on social media, or my Live Brave Podcast.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Margie Warrell
Thank you. I invite people to take my courage quiz. If you head over to my website, to “The Courage Gap” page, you’ll see The Courage Quiz, and I invite you to take it because it’ll help you identify where the courage gaps are in your life and how you can close them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Margie, thank you.

Margie Warrell
Thank you.

Apr 07
0

1047: How to Reignite Purpose, Happiness, and Motivation at Work with Jennifer Moss

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Jennifer Moss gets to the heart of why so many are dissatisfied at work—and what we can do about it.

You’ll Learn

  1. The driving force behind our unhappiness at work
  2. 20-minute practices that rebuild hope and morale
  3. Why remote work isn’t the culprit for loneliness—and what is

About Jennifer

Jennifer Moss specializes in future-focused leadership development, expertly balancing employee well-being with performance. As an award-winning writer and internationally acclaimed keynote speaker, she specializes in transforming workplace culture using data-driven leadership strategies. She writes for Harvard Business Review, sat on the United Nations’ Global Happiness Council, was named to the Thinkers50 radar, and has been featured in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNBC, CNN, Marketplace, TIME, Fortune, Fast Company, and more. Her book The Burnout Epidemic tackled employee burnout and was among Thinkers50’s “10 Best New Management Books for 2022.”

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Jennifer Moss Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jen, welcome back.

Jennifer Moss
I’m so glad to be back. It’s been a while.

Pete Mockaitis
It sure has. Eight whole years. Boy, a lot could happen in that timeframe. Can you share with us something transformational you’ve learned over the last eight years?

Jennifer Moss
As I’ve gotten older and I think become a little bit more, aware that change takes a really long time to happen, and you sometimes move sideways, and you move backwards.

And yet there has been, when I look back to when I first wrote Unlocking Happiness at Work, and now Why Are We Here, there has been some real advancement in the discussion around happiness and well-being at work and that’s a positive thing that I think has been really impactful on me and my level of hope for the future.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Hope is good. We like hope. More of that, please. So, tell us, in your book, Why Are We Here?: Creating a Work Culture Everyone Wants, any particularly fascinating discoveries you’ve made along the way?

Jennifer Moss
There is just such brilliant research going on out there that’s been untapped and we need to spend more time, I think, with our academic partners in workplaces because it’s just so necessary to learn that there are ways that we can actually improve the workforce.

And I broke the book out into these three parts, the foundations, which is really hope, purpose, and community, and then I go into the second part, which is all of these unbelievable shifts that have happened at work in the last five years that feel like we’re in the multiverse of work. This isn’t the future of work. It’s the multiverse of work. And it really is dealing with AI and the rapid evolution of technology and generational bias and how that’s polarized the workforce. And then also just flexibility now, a right not a perk.

And so, I talk about that from a sense of compassionate leadership and leaders having a sense of openness as a leader, and really around understanding freedom. And then the third part is how we’re going to get there as a collective, and that’s belonging and recognition. And so, this, for me, across the board, every single chapter was this real understanding of the psychological barriers that we’re all facing as human beings that keep us from feeling and behaving with those kinds of traits. And so, it was a lot of learning and a lot of self-discovery too, as a leader myself.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there’s a lot of rich stuff to dig into here. Thank you. Can you tell us, in terms of the academic community, sort of researchers doing studies and publishing them in journals, is there a particular discovery or thing that is well understood amongst academics looking at this stuff, that is generally not at all, or not frequently, implemented in the real world?

Jennifer Moss
Yes, and, one, is I would say it’s the first chapter, which is really interesting because today Gallup just put a note, basically, that hope is what every single organization needs to be fostering to be able to build out a future-ready organization, and it is the first chapter of my book. And, actually, John Clifton was interviewed, and he’s the CEO of Gallup, and talked about kind of the book and the importance of the book, and I think it’s because he had been seeing this hope need and this loss of hope inside of organizations.

And the thing is we constantly say in leadership, “Hope isn’t a strategy, and we can’t make hope a strategy.” And the thing is that leaders are getting that completely wrong. When I interviewed senior leaders in the military, they said hope is their only strategy. They always make hope foundational to the mission because how is anyone going to put their life on the line if they don’t have hope that they’re going to be able to achieve the end goal?

And so, in the book, I talk about how practical it is to build hope. It’s easier than building empathy and almost any other trait because it’s really, it’s tactical and you build it through these small incremental settings of goals, having the agency and the support to get to those goals, and then creating plan Bs and plan Cs so that if one plan to your goal fails, you have another plan as a backup.

And so, I talk about how we can do this, like 20 minutes every single week can build cognitive hope in an organization. It’s not hard, and I think that it’s been easy to put it off as something that’s simple and too simple to be valuable, and instead, it’s actually so needed right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so hope, we need it, got to have it, are missing it. Can you define, specifically, what do we mean by hope?

Jennifer Moss
Hope right now is this kind of key trait that we need to get people to feel like they can see themselves inside of society, writ large, but also inside of our organizations. If you don’t have hope, you feel disconnected from the mission because you don’t see yourself as part of the future. You also have anxiety around things that are new. AI, for example, if you see yourself as becoming obsolete, and you don’t have hope that you are part of that picture of an organization, you disengage, you’re less productive.

Hopelessness makes you have to be in a survivor state every day and you’re not thriving so you’re not actually thinking about the future, which is what we need right now. We’re just moving so quickly that if we don’t have a future perspective in our organizations, and people are in just survivor mode every day, we’re going to see attrition or we’re going to see what Gallup calls the Great Detachment, which people are at work, but they’re extremely unhappy, they’re actively disengaged, and they’re actually spending time trying to get other people to be as unhappy as they are, which creates a social contagion and it’s really unhealthy.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. So, hope, very important. And so, what exactly is hope?

Jennifer Moss
Hope is a sense of feeling that you are encouraged by the future, that you see that yourself in the future, that you feel like you have a legacy, that you have a sense of mattering and meaning in the world, that the world itself cares about you, that the world itself is safe, and you feel psychologically safe in it. Hope comes a lot with a sense of community. So, you believe that there are people there for you in a time of need.

Whether it’s actually tested or not, it’s a perception that you have social support, and that’s a big part of a sense of hopefulness inside of your community, inside of society, and your place inside the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, I’m hearing that hope is a belief, and it seems to encompass a lot of things. Could you tell me in one sentence, how are we defining hope in this context?

Jennifer Moss
I think I just described it, but, yeah, hope is…

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I guess it’s like a lot of things, but like what is the umbrella that is encompassing all of those things?

Jennifer Moss
Hope is a sense that everything is going to be all right.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. A sense that everything’s going to be all right. And so, then we’ve sort of already gotten a sneak peek at some of those segments there. And so, within everything being all rightness, there’s a component associated with the future, like what will unfold. There’s a component associated with community and people and relationships, like I feel a sense of comfort and belonging in their midst. And I guess, are those the key pillars? Or, what would be the subcomponents of this belief?

Jennifer Moss
I mean, you just listed really all of what those subcomponents are to hope. But I think the important part right now to, I think, for us to focus on is the fact that we have a high rate of hopelessness inside of our world right now.

Globally, the sense of hope is significantly reduced. And that’s because we have moved from a state of the pandemic being a crisis, but we’re in poly-crisis right now, which is a cluster of crises that have all come together to make each crisis actually worse than if it was individually on its own. And so, that poly-crisis, that sense of always feeling uncertain, that fluidity of our lives and never feeling on solid ground, that is creating a lot of questioning.

This is why I wrote the book Why Are We Here? because people are feeling like a lot of “what’s the point-ism?” And you feel that if you don’t have a sense of hope that you are doing something that actually is going to make a difference, that the belief systems that you had and the infrastructure that you trusted is going to stay a trustworthy institution. And our hope is being eroded by a lot of the issues around the world and poly-crisis and this political instability, and that is eroding our connection to each other and our sense of who we are as human beings.

I mean, progress and cooperation are a big part of what make humans, humans, and successful. And we’re not going to feel cooperative if we haven’t felt hopeful that there’s a reason for it. And hope gives you a reason for being, and without that, we lose progress, we lose innovation, we lose a sense of societal congruency, which is, I think, one of the biggest problems that we’re seeing right now is this real separation and disconnectedness amongst people today.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s a cluster all right, Jen. Poly-crisis, that’s a good turn of a phrase. I hear you in that when there’s multiple things, it does really feel greater than the sum of its parts, like, “Let’s worry about one thing, and take your pick, politics, climate change, my economic footing, AI is going to take away my job, like, fill in the blank.”

And then if you have multiple, you can just leap from crisis to crisis and really dwell in it. And once one gets boring for your brain, oh, not to worry, we can anxiously stew and ruminate on another one. I served up right for you. So, a cluster, indeed. And so, the “What’s the point?” I think that really hits it for me.

And I was grilling you a few times on the precise definition of hope, it’s like I think the “what’s the point-ness” really does feel, at an emotional gut level, like the vibe, the experiential definition of hopelessness. And then I guess if we take the opposite of that, it’s like, “Well, what’s the point?” I mean, like, “Hey, we’re making a cool thing happen with people we care about to make things better for all of us and a group of folks that we’re serving. That’s the point. So, we’re going to get after that, and that feels pretty good to our just basic human longings for progress and cooperation.”

Jennifer Moss
Yeah, and if people feel like everything they’re working on is some sort of pipe dream that’s not going to be realized, you can imagine inside of organizations that want to build new things and get people excited about new innovations. productizations of cool stuff that it just will, you know, it just makes people feel like, “Why bother? If I’m going to see this thing through and at the end, it’s just not going to actually matter or it’s not going to affect any change.”

And when you look at the data around people that have a sense of purpose and their goals being realized, it’s such a different type of mentality and level of performance in an employee. If you feel like, “Okay, I have leadership that’s going to see my project through, they support me, they give me the resources, and then they’re going to amplify it or use it,” you’re much more eager to try new things and experiment and put yourself at risk.

You’re not going to see that if people feel like they’re constantly in this rotation of projects that never actually end up going anywhere, or that the organization is only building something that isn’t going to improve the world. You see so many Gen Z’s attracted to organizations with purpose, they feel tied to the end goals, and they’re rejecting organizations that don’t foster that.

And so, we need to be able to recognize that when there’s hopelessness, people are seeking hope, so they’re going to be more even more inclined to be attracted to companies and work that support that sense of purpose.

Pete Mockaitis
And you said there’s a 20-minute practice that builds hope. What is it?

Jennifer Moss
Well, and I keep saying, like, culture can be built in 20 minutes or less, and middle managers play a huge role in that, and hope can be built just through this idea of setting a goal and having a manager and the organization support you getting to that goal without micromanaging you or making it about hours worked, not the goal itself. Like, the productivity measure shouldn’t even be relevant here. And then having people come up with different pathways to getting there.

This is Snyder’s theory of hope and it’s really applicable in the workforce. You see Google with their OKRs they’re really looking at, and the way that they do goal setting within the organization. It really is peer supported. They co-create their goals. They talk about it transparently with the organization so people can support. There’s a lot of support for continuing development to hit those goals. Those goals are challenging enough, but not so challenging that you can never actually achieve them, so you’re always building hope.

And it’s also that you have milestones, so you’re celebrating along the way, instead of it being like, “Oh, we sold a million-dollar, you know, whatever product,” or, “Landed a client,” and/or, “The project is finally done after three years and then we finally celebrate.” It’s about incrementally reminding people that they’re hitting milestones, which builds cognitive hope. So again, it’s just weekly and then incrementally, and then over time it really does change the atmosphere of innovation inside of these organizations that obviously are known for their innovative thinking.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, this is resonating. And it just sounds like we’ve had previous guests talk about the intrinsic motivators of play, like it is fun to solve problems. You feel like you’re actually getting to use your brain. And some people pay good money for the pleasure of solving problems with video games or whatever, they’re at kind of escape rooms, activities that they’re into.

So, could you tell us a story about a team that had a cool shift in terms of they were doing things the hopeless way, and they made some changes, they started doing some things hopefully, and cool results unfolded?

Jennifer Moss
Well, I go back to Atlassian, who’s a great example of distributed workforce, and they just do things really well. They were finding that people were not using the space, and they were dealing with a sense of loneliness, and they started to test, “How do we make it so that people feel excited and that they’re inspired by the organization?”

And they started their hackathons as one, where everyone comes to the table once a quarter, and they just play and do cool things, and everyone’s so excited about it, and that really has led to some incredible innovations, but, plus, it also created this other part of the hope strategy is that they were bringing people together. And there was another part of, again, that these satellite offices were, now they’re 91% occupied in an, interestingly, fully remote workforce.

They have all this in-person time, and they realized, “Okay. Well, at this point, we’re not necessarily giving people a sense of their product or their work being seen.” So, they started this togetherness focus and started to have people go and work in other offices, and really championed and supported people actually going and spending a week with a peer in another market. So, at any one time in New York, 50% of the office is occupied by people from around the entire organization.

And in these environments, they also are bringing CEOs and C-level executives to come into these spaces, so there’s an opportunity for everyone’s ideas to be seen, which makes you feel like, “I’m not just doing things in a vacuum. I actually am being evaluated and supported by some of the senior people around the organization.”

And so, they’ve done a really great job of pushing back on this idea that you can’t have remote workers be cohesive or have friendships or it’s just always loneliness for those people working remotely. They totally bucked that myth. And they do that by building up their workforce to still feel like when you’re together, it’s not about distraction, it’s about getting what they call “getting s**t done,” that’s their motto. And you go in the office to still get s**t done, but you are also focusing on building a sense of pride in the work that you do, and for others to see what you’re working on.

Pete Mockaitis
That is so cool and fun, and that just lights me up in terms of whenever there’s just a beautiful win-win in terms of people experience, as well as organizational functioning and profitability. And, like, building the remote offices, I’m sure like, from one frame of reference, I imagine there is a finance employee somewhere at the spreadsheet, saying, “No, no, no, no, this is not net present value positive for these funds into this purpose.” Because it can be hard to see a measure. Well, what is the value of people feeling like they’re seen, and like they belong, and like they have friends, and the engagement and reduced attrition that comes with it? It’s hard to quantify.

But I recall, and I just sort of thought Bain was really nice to us with regard to some of the investments they made. Like, you could just transfer to another office in the world for six months, and I was like, “Oh, that’s kind of cool of them. How generous.” And maybe there’s a part of that, but, really, it was a deliberate move to facilitate best practice sharing across the worldwide network.

Jennifer Moss
I love what you’re saying because I’ve been, for many years, an advocate of spending money on making sure that people get to see each other and investing in that travel spend. I mean, right now, we’re supposed to be saving money on our commercial real estate, hopefully, the people that have downsized. Why aren’t we moving people around so that we can get them to see each other?

Because one of the things in the book that I learned is that we have this real shift in the last five years where people used to see other people in their organization. They used to make friends with people because you talked about your kids’ baseball team, or you were friends because you like the same type of movies. And it would create these ad hoc kind of outside of work relationships so we move from these simplex relationships, which are just transactional to multiplex relationships, which include knowing about each other.

And since the pandemic, we are really much more focused on simplex relationships, it’s much more transactional, and a lot of that has to do with the fact that we’re only seeing our team. And I’ve heard this across the board in my interviews, “I just feel like I only know my team. I don’t know anyone else in the organization. We’re so siloed.” And that was already problematic, but there were ways that we fixed that by just creating opportunities to meet and connect.

And so, it doesn’t need to be five days in the office. Lots of data shows that’s actually counter to cohesion, but it is concentrated focus on getting real time with each other, that has more meaning and develops these multiplex relationships. And we’re not doing that very well, so we just blame it on it being remote work that’s created loneliness. But it’s actually so much more complex than that, but the solutions are much easier than people think. And it isn’t just like, “Yeah, that strategy of forcing everyone back through return to office mandates.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, a couple follow-ups there. Five days in the office is counter to cohesion. What is optimal for cohesion?

Jennifer Moss
Well, Gallup says one to two days in the office per week and then you have others that say, I mean, hybrid is optimal if hybrid is done right. I mean, Mark Ma, from University of Pittsburgh, and Nick Bloom from Stanford, they’ve done lots of lots of research and found that, from a purely capitalist standpoint, the most financially viable is hybrid. People feel like that’s an okay meet in the middle.

And that five days a week, it ends up, actually, making people feel less connected, they’re more resentful to the organization and feeling less loyal, so they don’t invest in relationships in the same way. We also see organizations that have been focused on return to office mandates tend to also, as part of their kind of work personas, they’re overworking and there’s a lot of burn out there. And when you’re burned out, you also don’t really want to hang out after work or spend a lot of time chit-chatting. You feel like that 20 minutes of just having lunch every week could mean an extra hour in your pajamas at 11 o’clock at night so you avoid it.

And so, we’re seeing a lot of data that shows that that’s not great.

And fully remote is not great either in many ways. Some organizations, like Atlassian and others do it well, but from a purely capitalist standpoint, it is kind of that Goldilocks zone where there’s a little bit of both. But ones that are most successful are like the ones like Microsoft where it’s 50% of your time, not Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. It’s sort of fluid, and managers get to say, “Hey, let’s talk about what makes sense.”

They have moments that matter, which is like, you know, an onboarding or a project that they really want to work on, or some specific reason why you’re in it together, but that can be fluid from week to week. And so, that kind of autonomy but a little bit of time together that’s used in a better way is where we see higher cohesion and happier workers.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we talked about hope a lot, but you actually mentioned eight areas for folks to address. Could you give us the quick one sentence, what do you mean by this area, and then maybe one quick tip for giving that a boost?

Jennifer Moss
So, purpose is the second chapter. I was able to talk with Adam Grant. He and I are really aligned on this idea of that leaders get this purpose wrong. It’s like part of the mission statement, your values and your purpose, and it’s always tied to this big grand mission statement. But no one really cares about that unless you’re in this executive group. There’s about 20% at the highest level that really feel connected to the purpose. Most people just want to tie their daily values to work.

So, one of the things that we recommend is that leaders of their teams have this one meeting every single week. And I know we’re meeting fatigued, but it’s 20 minutes, again 20 minutes to fix culture, and it’s a non-work-related check-in. You ask, “What lit you up this week? What stressed you out?” and everyone goes around and talks about that. And then, “What can we do to make next week easier?”

Because purpose really is about, “Does the thing I do every day, even the tedious and boring things that I do every day, do they matter? Does anyone care about it?” And if that’s connected to who you are and you feel good about it, you feel like you have purpose. And so, “What lights you up?” that’s like pure magic for managers to motivate. You know, “Okay, now I know you like this. Now that makes you excited. Oh, let’s try to create some of that thinking and fuel your work with that.”

And then, “What stresses you out?” that’s how you prevent burnout. That’s how you make sure that someone saying they haven’t slept every single time you ask them this question or they’re not sleeping, you can dig into it. Then you have managers as mental health conduits, not professionals, and they’re just able to get to it.

And then, “What can we do for each other to make next week easier?” builds that sense of shared goal-setting and helping each other and quick wins, which also builds cognitive hope. And it really, from the interventions where we’ve tried this, it’s really done incredible shifts in morale. And so, I think, like, that’s purpose and why I really feel like that’s a key critical thing that we should be working on.

Pete Mockaitis
And community?

Jennifer Moss
Community is just we’re all lonely. We need to have friends again. And the way that we’re seeking out friendships right now are based on accountability and conscientiousness. It’s a huge switch from pre-pandemic, where we were looking at shared interests, likeability, someone made you laugh, but now it’s like, “Can you get your job done because that’s all I care about?” And so, we need to bring rituals back.

We used to have what is called, I think, before it was called forced fun. And we don’t want forced fun, but we want rituals because that’s how you build social contagions, and people feel like going to work isn’t just like going to school without our gym or recess. It’s super boring right now. So, building friendships through rituals.

And then when we look at solving the big problems, compassion is how we, as leaders, address AI anxiety. We have to understand that there’s a lot of people, especially our younger cohort, one in two are feeling AI anxiety, which Gallup calls FOBO, fear of becoming obsolete. And so, compassion is how we do that because empathy is listening, compassion is taking that listening and putting it into action.

And then when it comes to really looking at openness, if we create openness, this is going to solve that generational divide that we have right now. A lot of mature workers say, “I don’t fit into this workforce. Like, this is not at all my philosophy, and I don’t really want to worry about obsolescence in my final years of work.” So, we’re seeing them, a lot of mature workers leave early, and I think that’s actually going to be a major labor force catastrophe if we’re not careful with that group.

And young people are just opting out. So, we need to stop this hyperbolic, “Boomers can’t Google, and they’re micromanaging,” or, “Gen Z’s are lazy and entitled, and they’d afford a home if they just stop buying avocado toast.” That, to me, is just like, people think it’s funny, and, actually, it’s creating a real sense of ageism at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, so you’re saying, in both directions.

Jennifer Moss
In both directions.

Pete Mockaitis
So, the Millennials think that the Boomer is an idiot who can’t Google, and the Boomer thinks that the youngsters are irresponsibly burning their cash. Whereas, like, there are realities associated with, like, affordability is harder now. And then on the other side, it’s like, “Hey, technology is changing much more rapidly now.” Like, that’s also true, and that is also hard, and it needs to be acknowledged.

Jennifer Moss
It is. And you know what? I keep saying, like, stop using terms like “reverse mentoring.” We use that all the time. And it assumes that an older worker knows less about technology or something than a younger one, and we talk about Boomers know this and Gen Z knows this. We see this always when we talk about technology, and it’s just assumed that one generation knows something more than the other, which is not accurate.

Like, look at Dr. Hinton, he was the founder of AI, probably knows a lot about AI, and he’s in his late 60s. And so, this idea that we have to learn in this reverse way, instead of peer mentorship is a way better approach to talking about it. And, really, in the book, I just go through all the language that we don’t realize we’re using, the narratives that we use a lot, and that it just creates this continued labeling of an entire generation as being a very specific thing. And instead of just taking those assumptions away and looking at it, I think, with an openness, that’s what leaders need to do.

And then I think my favorite chapter was freedom because this whole idea of the reason why workers don’t want to have these RTO mandates, or don’t want to go back to work is that we’re missing the psychological barriers that people are feeling right now, which is, “I had my freedom in this certain area of work,” and it goes across the board, not just with return to office, but across the board.

There was more investment in well-being, DEI, you know, all of these commitments, and promises that were made to people. And when they started getting those clawed back, it felt like, “Wow, now my freedom, my sense of freedom is being taken away.” I talk about this from a neuroscience standpoint, and our sense of freedom is deeply baked in our neural wiring. It’s something we would go to great peril to stand up for, and a lot of this resistance is subconscious.

It’s conscious and subconscious because we’re fighting for something that we feel like is ours now. And so, that trust is a big factor, and so organizations that are making these choices really quickly and just sort of throwing it at employees is why I believe that this whole issue has continued to be so polarizing. Instead of understanding that people shot up when it comes to the rates of social anxiety from 4% to 36% of people explain that they had social anxiety through the pandemic.

So, you’re not just saying, “People, go back to work. Deal with it,” and if they’re resistant, it’s because they’re lazy. It’s because they have generalized and high levels of social anxiety. So, I think this, for me, was a big aha, recognizing why the pushback and why the resistance is so, so difficult for leaders and employees to get on the same page.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, could you share, if folks are in the individual contributor role of things, and they’re vibing with what you’re saying, like, “Yes, Jen, this sounds right and true and good, and I wish my organization would do some of this enlightened stuff,” what do you recommend they do?

Jennifer Moss
Well, as an individual contributor, your life is still—you’re still in charge of it, and although happiness at work, it really needs to have societal and policy change. You need to have leadership and high-level executive managers and individuals all play a role to make it the kind of culture that everyone wants. We have a lot of responsibility too of our own choices. It’s a privilege to just quit so I don’t just say, “Oh, everyone can quit.”

Not everyone can quit. It’s not that easy to do. But I do say that there are a lot of things that have happened, habits that have been imposed on us and self-inflicted habits. Like, I just wrote this article for HBR that was really, I think, well-received and it was titled “Let’s End Toxic Productivity.” And we’ve become toxically productive. We’re waking up in the morning and checking, we’re sitting in our pajamas, we’re calling it fun work. We have our glass of wine while we’re doing admin, and it’s like, “Oh, this is fun work because I’m drinking and I’m doing my admin work.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s one way to do it.

Jennifer Moss
Yeah. It’s like, “No, this is still not healthy.” And you see this increase specifically in women that are just completely burning out, and they’re hitting that wall. So, we do feel a sense of pressure that, again, it’s like institutional stress, but it’s also us feeling like we need to perform at these high levels. And a lot of that is because we’re still in this sense of urgency mode. We’re still in surge capacity mode, and we haven’t stopped that, reset that habit and replace those with more boundaries.

We can’t always make those choices because there’s a lot of reasons for it, but in the book, the first chapter was me interviewing Kara, who was on track to be the first female black partner in her law firm, and she lost three members of her family. And when I met her, she was driving an Uber, and I said, “Wow, that’s intense. And what made you choose to do that?” And she said, “Life is short. I’m working on my nonprofit in Costa Rica, giving microloans to women, and, yeah, I’m making less money, but I just feel like I needed to do this. Like, I’m compelled to do this.”

And you’re seeing more women, why we have the thinnest executive pipeline in history right now. And for the first time in a decade, we see the global CEOs of females decline, and a lot of it is just a purpose shifting, and we’re going to lose a lot of talent because people are just, overwhelmed. But we do have the choice, and I have had so many interviews.

I interviewed over a hundred Uber drivers for the book, and every single one of them said, “I feel better.” And it’s shocking because we would think, “Really?” Our perception is, “No way. You had this opportunity to be the first black female partner, like, how could you be happier?” And she said, “I am. It’s extraordinary how much healthier I am and happier I am in this role.”

And I think, when you face your mortality, you realize that. And a lot of us have collectively faced our mortality over the last five years or have a sense of it potentially being uncertain, and that changes you. And this is what we need to look at, it’s like, “What are our deathbed regrets?” And if that doesn’t fit into the schematic of, “Okay, is answering an email at 11 o’clock at night drunk, is that going to be our deathbed regret? Probably. Or, is missing time with my family, or is being healthy, or is actually setting boundaries?” And that is where I see a lot more people making those choices for their own happiness and healthiness.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s zoom on this, you interviewed a hundred Uber drivers, and all of them said they were happier driving Uber than doing another job.

Jennifer Moss
Well, I would say maybe 80 to 85 percent of them did, 15% were just like, “I’ve been always driving this car and it’s good for me because I…” That 15% and I found were really proud of making a paycheck to be able to put their kids through school or giving them a better life, and so there was still a sense of pride. They hadn’t left another job, but the majority of them had.

And there was three people I interviewed that had left Wall Street. They were making lots of money and, fortunately, they had some money to be able to support that. I saw a lot of retirees that took early retirement but didn’t want to return to corporate, so they were driving an Uber just to continue making money, but they had no desire to actually go back. And a lot of them had very solid positions within their company. They made good money, but they didn’t want to be in that environment.

This is where they would say things like, “I just don’t fit. Like, this is good for me, this pace.” And I also found, too, what was a really interesting data point is that 20% of American grandparents are primary caregivers. And so, we never think of that, and now we’re seeing more organizations have grandternity benefits, which I think are fantastic.

But we think only older Gen Z’s and Millennials need that help with the kind of paternity and maternity leave, but grandparents are taking on primary care, so flexibility has become extremely important for them. And so, so organizations that didn’t offer that, that was leading them to go into places where there was flexibility. And I would say across the board, that was one of the main factors, was just “The flexibility to be able to do what I needed to do as a parent, as a grandparent, or even just for my own passion pursuits.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I mean, I think that is so stark in terms of many workplaces are failing their workers so profoundly, in terms of flexibility, purpose, belonging, that folks would prefer to receive a fourth or less the compensation in order to just drive a car and not have to deal with all that crap.

Jennifer Moss
Yes. And, really, again, it’s the focal point of the book because people described what they were missing, and the data shows that the big Gallup whirlpool that goes into the happiness report found that people would take 37% less pay if it meant higher work-life balance and flexibility. I mean, we can solve these problems and yet now we’re seeing more people double and triple down on less flexibility, which just erodes that trust, and I think the data is there.

There’s so much evidence to show that if you provide autonomy and trust in your workers that you hired, that you spent a lot of money to recruit and retain, they’re adults, you hired adults, so why are you treating them like children when you bring them into the organization? And so, to me, the freedom chapter of flexibility, specifically, it’s like, it’s just such a no-brainer, and organizations are just making this real play to have control, and it’s turning people off.

And they are willing, at this point, to take much less pay to have a life that feels like that there’s a sense of freedom in it. And that’s why you’re seeing this high level of disengagement, this constant turnover. People, even if you’re in the organization, are just not feeling like they care about work. Quiet quitting, and disengagement is so high, that you’re not even getting the most out of your people. You’re actually getting a fraction of what you could be getting from your people if you just let go of the power and looked at this as a mutual respect of transferring skills and just working together.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, Jen, tell me, anything else you want to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Jennifer Moss
I just really hope that people just start caring more about each other, and putting five percent more of their effort into just being kind and altruistic. And, you know, it really is 20 minutes, 20 minutes of eating lunch with each other, Cornell found, actually improves well-being and happiness at work. It’s just one lunch every single week together.

If I can tell people to just take 20 minutes of thinking of some sort of tactical strategy that you could do to make someone in your organization’s life better, you will feel better for it. And if we could create a bit of a social network or contagion around that, I think it would spill over into something really, really transformational.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jennifer Moss
“You can have anything, not everything.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jennifer Moss
I love Dr. William’s study that he did for the Oxford Wellbeing Institute this year, and he said, basically, well-being programs aren’t working, wellness is not working, but the one thing that does work is volunteering and altruism. So, just being nice to other people is the one well-being program that we should be focusing on this year.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jennifer Moss
I love A Little Life. It’s so painful but it is the most beautiful book I’ve ever read.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Jennifer Moss
One of my favorite tools right now is ResearchGate. Being able to have the ability to go through there and be able to use it for really incredible research that you can, as a journalist and as an author, be using so that we aren’t spreading misinformation, so that we really are getting it from peer-reviewed sources.

That makes me feel so much better about the content I’m putting out, and that people are reading something that I know has been backed through evidence. And I think every single writer and journalist, and anyone communicating to the public, should be using that source instead of some of the AI sources that might be not as accurate.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Jennifer Moss
I do practice gratitude. And I know that sounds hokey but it’s something that I really try to do. We do it around the dinner table but, lately, just for me, it’s like, “What went well this week? What can I work with that I have versus what I don’t have?” and it does work. It gets me out of my habit.

And just taking a moment to take a breath, and realize that there’s still a lot of good things in the world that I appreciate. It does ground me in this time of poly-crisis.

Pete Mockaitis
And, if I may, when it comes to practicing gratitude, I think that there’s some nuance in doing this excellently, because sometimes I can list a thing that is objectively a blessing or, “This is a good thing, and I am noting it, I am listing it, I am acknowledging it.” But sometimes when I’m doing gratitude, I actually feel gratitude for the thing that is objectively good, and other times, I don’t have the feelings. And since you’re a good researcher, can you tell me, does that matter in terms of doing a gratitude practice? Or how should I do it optimally?

Jennifer Moss
Dr. Robert Emmons in his book Thanks, and a lot of his research, are so useful on this concept of gratitude and how it impacts. And sometimes it is tail that wags the dog, you know, like that idea that you think about these things, it is a narrative that your brain is using. So, anytime that you refocus on something that maybe you’re not feeling, but you know is valuable, like, “Oh, be thankful for having clean water.” And at the moment, I’m just not like, “Oh, I’m so grateful for clean water,” but I’ll mention it.

And it does help you have perspective-taking because from a neuroscience standpoint, it does take out the things that you could be focusing on that are not positive. You have only so much you can attend to at any one time. It’s like 40 things that you can attend to in the moment while you’re processing tens of billions of pieces of information. But if you’re attending to something, even if you don’t feel those, you know, necessarily those chemical reactions to it, it is creating a desire path in the brain.

So, the more that you put that focus, that neural wiring, and you go over it and over and over again, you create what is called gratitude fluency. So, you go from practicing gratitude to being grateful, and that happens over time. It’s like a language that you learn and you become fluent in gratitude, and so then it’s an automatic response to feel gratitude towards something versus having to practice it. But it is something, as it works through your life, it does change the chemistry as well. It just takes time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that is helpful. And if nothing else, the fact that I have oriented my thoughts towards a thing worthy of gratitude means that I wasn’t like whining about “This water doesn’t taste very good. And a key nugget, something that you share that seems to connect and resonate with folks?

Jennifer Moss
One of the things I would say is that we have more agency sometimes than we think if we’re really stressed and burned out. And one of the best things that we can do is really do a values assessment. What do you care about? What do you love? And then make your priorities for the year. Focus on that.

And if you’re saying yes to something, like a project that maybe you’re excited to participate in but it’s going to take that extra 20% of your time, put it on that scale of “Is this FOMO? Is this something I have to do? Or, is this another thing where I’m going to regret saying yes in the future?” And take some time to rest.

Rest is not a four-letter word. Look at what you can be doing with that time for work, and instead refocus it on making sure that you’re well and healthy and prioritize your own well-being and the well-being of the people around you first. And then, hopefully, you’ll start to see the benefits of that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more get in touch, where would you point them?

Jennifer Moss
Jennifer-Moss.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jennifer Moss
I would love for all of you to spend the next month and every day say something nice about another person behind their back. Spreading positive gossip inside of an organization actually improves psychological safety for those people coming into the space. And when it gets around to someone that you said some awesome thing about them, it really does make them feel incredibly special. So, just for the next month, just talk nicely about all your co-workers and see how that spreads a positivity contagion.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jen, thank you. This is fun.

Jennifer Moss
Thank you so much, Pete. It was great. Too many years in between, but maybe it’ll be less next time.