108: Reaching Out of your Comfort Zone with Andy Molinsky

Pete Mockaitis
Andy, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Andy Molinsky
I’m excited to be here, thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to have you, absolutely, and dig into so much of the fun stuff that’s in your book coming out, Reach. But first things first I thought it’d be fun to maybe break the ice; you’ve studied in Spain, worked in France, have some great stuff in terms of your first book and a cultural code cheat sheet on your website about kind of living and working in different places. So, would you per chance have a funny story you could kick us off with, about maybe international travels or cultural misunderstanding? It seems like you’d be the clearinghouse for these sorts of things.

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, definitely. So my first book, Global Dexterity, was about acting outside your cultural comfort zone. And I lived in Spain, I’ve lived in France, I lived in Denmark for a while. I don’t know, it’s funny. The first thought that popped into my mind was at a dinner party in France. Now I went to France in my early 20s, ’cause I was interested in global business, but I’d never really done any global business. So I went to France and I got an internship in a global business.
And loved the business, but I loved living there. It was such a fascinating experience, way outside my comfort zone. Having grown up in the United States, never having traveled abroad, and frankly I didn’t speak much French at the time. So I was learning as I was going and it was super exciting and fun. And when you just said that it brought me back to a dinner party.
And I was at this dinner party with another American, both of us about the same level of French, which was intermediate, and we’re at the table and they were serving dinner. And it was this little creature, this cooked creature, and I had no idea what it was. And at the time I don’t think I had the most adventurous eating… I definitely was not the most adventurous eater. And I remember them saying that it was “caille”. “It’s caille, it’s caille” – they were telling me in French. And I look at my friend, I’m like, “What is ‘caille’?” We looked at it, we had no clue what it was, we thought it might’ve been some sort of roadkill pigeon or some really odd thing, at least for us.
So I remember we ate it politely, no idea what it was, and I remember coming back, taking the metro back to our little apartment that we were staying in, and we both ran up the stairs, bolted into the door, went to find our dictionary. ‘Cause at the time – this dates me – there were no smartphones at this time. So we ran to get our paper dictionary, looked up what “caille” was, had to figure out how to spell it, and it turns out it was quail.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Andy Molinsky
So it wasn’t too bad, but it was just a funny little story that’s sort of emblematic of the uncertainty, and that’s a very simple little everyday example of stepping outside your comfort zone, especially if you’re not an adventurous eater, you’re in a world where you don’t understand much. And it was just an amazing experience to live and work abroad, and that’s just one little sort of fun personal anecdote. But yeah, that’s what your question brought me back to.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is fun. So let’s talk some more about this world of venturing out and experiencing different things, be it quail or in the adventures of the workplace. So I was really intrigued as I was reading through your book and description. So you say, “What often sets successful people apart is their willingness to do things most of us fear.” And I like that sentence; it seems and feels about right, but I imagine you’ve got a whole lot of hard facts, research and observations behind that assertion.

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, so for the past many years… So I should say I’m a professor at Brandeis University in the business school and also in the psychology department, and so for the past several years I’ve been researching the challenges that people face across professions and trying to step outside their comfort zone – why it’s hard, how they avoid it, and what they can do to do it more successfully.
And so, I have interviewed or spoken with, and I also have sort of a learning laboratory I can tell you about in a little bit if you’re interested. So I’ve spoken and worked with and interviewed executives, managers, entrepreneurs, people who are younger, people who are older, teachers, professors, lawyers, small business owners, baristas, goat farmers, rabbis, priests – you name it, across the professions.
And what I think sets people apart is not the fear of the experience, but it’s the ability and willingness and capacity to take action despite the fear. And these are everyday things; these are things where for instance you’re a timid introvert, let’s say, and it’s really hard for you to step into a networking situation, to get up the courage; it’s really hard for you to, I don’t know, make small talk with people you don’t know. Or you have a hard time participating in meetings. Or you’re a micro manager and you now have to let go and you have to delegate, learn to delegate. Or you’re afraid of public speaking, and you have to step up to the plate and actually learn to give a speech. Or you are not an assertive person. Or you’re a people pleaser and you have to deliver bad news.
As you can tell it goes on and on, and in our everyday lives we experience situations like this, and so I think those who are successful are able to find a way to step outside their comfort zone, despite the fear that they experience, and give these things a shot. And we could talk later about what happens, but that’s what my work’s about – trying to understand how to give people the courage and skills to be able step outside their comfort zone.

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds so valuable. And first I want to think a little bit, as I’m reflecting on my own comfort zone and stuff, I think often when I’m exiting it, I don’t so much experience fear, like terror or “Oh, no”; but it’s more like exasperation, like, “Oh boy, this is going to be a whole lot.” But it’s similar in that there is a level of comfort that I’m leaving, like, “Ugh, I’m about to jump into this thing, which could be a real big mess and I don’t know if I’ve got the time, energy, capacity to handle it well right now. Ugh.” So I guess that’s how I feel when I’m venturing forth. So when you talk about comfort zone and fear, maybe can we define those terms a little bit?

Andy Molinsky
Sure. It’s not just fear, I would say. I was using fear sort of as shorthand. I think people have a lot of different challenges – I call them “psychological roadblocks” in the book. So, there are a bunch of different ones and different people can experience different roadblocks in different situations. Frankly, you can experience a roadblock in one situation that you don’t experience in another.
But for instance, many people feel inauthentic – they don’t feel themselves when stepping outside their comfort zone, and that’s actually pretty hard when that’s the case. Or they feel that they’re incompetent – maybe they don’t feel quite competent at the skills that they need to use in whatever situation that might be, and they feel that other people will be… That their incompetence will be visible.
Some people feel what I call the “likability challenge” – that they’re afraid that people are going to hate them if they act in this new way. And I can give you an example – there is one woman that I spoke with who was being essentially harassed by a male colleague, and she had every right to tell this guy off, but she was a very unassertive person, it was so hard for her to do it. And strangely – I learned to understand why – but she was terrified that he would hate her, when in fact he is the hateable one.
So there’s a variety of challenges. Some people feel a morality challenge. There are certain situation in a workplace, like delivering bad news. Here’s another one – I interviewed a woman who was a booker on a national news program. And what a booker is, if the audience doesn’t know, is it’s someone who has to get guests.

Pete Mockaitis
I need one of those.

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, there you go. And one of her big jobs, and this was a major television network, was after a tragedy or something like that, she had to get the network to be the first to get the family of a victim of the tragedy. And it was her job, she had to do it, and frankly for her to keep her job and do it well, she had to be the first. And I remember her telling me that it basically sucked out a piece of her soul every time she did this. It was way outside her comfort zone, and for her there was a morality roadblock there. So there’s a range of different roadblocks that people experience, so when I say it’s fear, that’s a bit of a shorthand – it could be a range of things.

Pete Mockaitis
That is fantastically helpful and interesting, ’cause as I’m thinking, “Yeah, that’s my roadblock.” It’s just that sense of, “Ugh, that’s going to be a whole lot and I don’t know if I can deal with it all.”

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I’m curious then… I think you define that term – “comfort zone” and “psychological obstacles” quite nicely, and I just think – just a historical trek – does that phrase stem from Steven Covey’s work, in terms of the panic zone and the stretch or growth zone? ‘Cause somehow this word became ubiquitous, like “think outside the box”?

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, it’s interesting. So I don’t know where the original etymology of the word “comfort zone” comes from, but you’re right – there’s that classic diagram, which is an awesome diagram. It’s sort of a target with bull’s eyes – you’ve got the comfort zone and you’ve got the learning zone and you’ve got the panic zone. There are different variants of it.
I was actually inspired and also frustrated, and I actually open my book talking about this, by looking on the Internet and pictures on the Internet, ’cause if you Google “comfort zone”, you’re going to find people jumping off bridges, you’re going to find fish jumping out of fish bowls, sayings like, “Life begins at the end of your comfort zone” and “All you need to do is stretch outside your comfort zone”.
All those things are maybe true in a way, but what was missing is, I guess you might imagine, from a Google image search, is the pathway to get there – some real, solid advice that is not just advice that’s anecdotal, but advice that has some science behind it for how to actually do it. And that’s what inspired me and that’s what basically began my quest to understand these challenges from the perspective of these people from all sorts of professions, but also for myself, ’cause I feature myself in the book too. It’s ironic – I say that I’m writing a book about getting outside your comfort zone and you might imagine I’m great at it. I’m not. I struggle too and that enables me to see the challenges, I think.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s so good, and I got a chuckle as you were talking about stock photography and what you’re going to bump into right there. And that’s why I reached out to you – I don’t have a booker yet. Maybe at my 200^th episode will upgrade and get that. I’ve got people helping me hunt down the ones I want. So I liked you just because, yes, it’s “How To Be Awesome At Your Job” and you’ve got some “how” content to share, and I’d love to dig into that, but first, if we could – is there anymore you want to say about the “why”? Why we should venture out of the comfort zone, why that matters and is important?

Andy Molinsky
I think it’s basically about growing and developing and if you want to try to reach your potential. I think there’s some statistic about Americans at least change job 11 times during their careers, and even within a job we’re often changing roles and responsibilities. We have dreams, we have aspirations and so on. And in order to achieve these things, you’re going to have to step outside your comfort zone, and it’s not just sort of regular Joe’s like us.
There’s an interesting article I saw the other day that said that the number 1 fear of CEOs across the world is exactly this – they call it the “impostor syndrome” – the idea that they feel like they’re an impostor, like, “Who am I to be a CEO?” And in my book, I show how people that you’d never think necessarily would have these fears, like CEOs or even priests or rabbis or whatever your religious figure is – people that you never really almost think about their humanity – when you talk to them, you realize that they struggle too, getting outside their comfort zone. So, I think for personal or professional growth, it’s essential, it’s core.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, I’m convinced. Well, take us into the “how” then. So you’ve got an overall strategy and framework you lay out there.

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, in the book. So I thought it was important to condense the ideas into something that’s usable. I’m very into writing things that can be immediately used – I write for the Harvard Business Review, I write for Inc magazine. When I write something I want people to be able to pick up this book and use it immediately. And so I basically talk about three different tools that I noticed across all these cases.
The first was conviction – it’s critical to have a deep sense of conviction; in other words giving yourself psychological permission to do this thing outside your comfort zone when every bone in your body is telling you “No”. Something, some wind at your back to get you to do it; some sort of sense of purpose and conviction.
Also, another critical resource I found across all these people was clarity. I think often times when we’re developing clarity – I think when we’re anxious we often fall off the balance beam, we worry, we think in exaggerated terms, we see the world as black and white, “I’ll be a total failure”. Or actually to the other extreme – “Unless I’m a total success I won’t do it.” So we think in these exaggerated terms, but to be able to sort of normalize and come to a sense of clarity about the most realistic likely possibility in a situation that’s outside our comfort zone – I think that’s critical, to be able to sort of ground us, to not have us fall off the balance beam and to be able to kind of essentially approach instead of avoid.
And then the last thing I think is probably the most surprising of all, and probably the most powerful, and I call it “customization” – it’s basically the idea that… It was really interesting to me that across these professions, across all these cases, people had power and they described subtle ways that they were able to sculpt or tweak or make slight minor accommodations to situations, all sorts of situations in all sorts of ways to make it just a little bit easier for them to do the situation.
So for example if you’re afraid of networking, you might play with time – you might come at the beginning of the event because you know there’ll be fewer people there and it’s less intimidating. You might bring a buddy, you might bring a prop, you might script out a few sentences, you might set yourself a goal. There are all sorts of ways that we can take any given situation, in terms of what we say, in terms of our body language, in terms of timing, in terms of props, in terms of sculpting situations. And there are some awesome examples in the book, and really a set of tools for people to do that on their own, and that’s what I call “customization”.

And so those are the “how’s”, and what’s really critical I found, is that the real essential tipping point is taking the leap, actually doing it. Because we spend so much of our lives avoiding situations, either unconsciously or consciously that are outside our comfort zones, but when you can nudge yourself to take that leap, I think you often times will find some interesting discoveries.
And what I found across all these cases is that there were two main discoveries. One – “This isn’t as bad as I thought it was.” And number two – “I’m actually better at this than I thought I was.” And those are core discoveries, but you can’t have those discoveries unless you take a leap. So, that’s what the book’s about, and it’s got really rich stories from all these cases plus a set of user-friendly tools. In fact, at the very end of the book I provide a set of tools that people can use to apply exactly what we just talked about to their lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is so fun and I have so much to dig into there, thank you. And it’s so funny, ’cause I’ve been having that experience again and again lately, ’cause I just recently just got married and so I’m husband, and I’ve done some things like changing light fixtures – never done that before – and a little terrified of like, “Oh am I going to electrocute myself?” And so I’d say, “Oh, that wasn’t so bad” and “Hey, that looks pretty good, and I guess I got it done.”

Andy Molinsky
Well, how about getting married in the first place?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh yeah, that too.

Andy Molinsky
For a lot of people that is a major leap outside their comfort zone, like losing their independence. And then, I don’t know where you are, but I have two kids, and having children is another leap. So I think in our personal lives this is very resonant as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Well, I’ve got several questions, if I may, I’d like to dig into maybe each of the three. And of course they’re C’s – well done. And I also like how customization is actually the perfect word, in my humble opinion, for this. And I thought, “Is he just trying to stretch to make it sound like a C?” But no, customization kind of implies, “You’re going to do it, so just figure out how it works for you”, as opposed to “conquering the challenge”. That’s also a C, but it’s still intimidating and sort of tricky, like “I’ve got to find the answer, the solution.” And it’s kind of a bigger bar.
So let’s talk about conviction here. Psychological permission, “wind at your back” kind of vibe you’re saying, and a sense of purpose. So I guess I’m thinking, do you mean a conviction, just that, “This must happen”, or is it conviction that, “I can in fact do it”, or is it both? What kind of conviction are we talking about?

Andy Molinsky
It’s about why it’s worth it for me to take this leap. In other words, “You know what? If I want to become a manger, this is something I’ve got to learn to do.” So it might be for my career, it might be for my self-development, it might be for my self esteem. I know it’s hard, but I know I feel good about myself if I take this leap. Or for some people conviction is actually helping other people, like, “This is really hard for me to do” – whatever this might be, “But I’m going to be able to help others if I’m able to do this.”
It’s sort of like generating, finding some sense of purpose. And what’s important is that it’s personal. The framework applies to everybody, but you have to insert your own personal experience into the framework, or else it doesn’t work. It has to be something for you, that really makes a difference.
I should say a word here about another source of learning that I’ve had in terms of coming up with these ideas. This will maybe sort of flesh things out too. I’ve created a course at Brandeis International Business School at Brandeis University, where I teach, and it’s the best course I teach. I love teaching this course, I look forward to it every year. It’s a course about stepping outside your comfort zone, exactly this.
And so I have anywhere from 20 to 30 MBA students, and they have to choose a situation just like we’re talking about, they have to learn what the rules of the road are, how they need to act in order to do whatever this is – if it’s giving a speech or networking if they’re afraid to do that, or whatever it might be. And then they have to go off into the world and find real examples and go do it. And then of course they write a structured diary about their experiences, they come back to class, we share our experiences, we learn about best tips and tools from each other and from my research, and then they go off and do it again.
So it’s an incredible learning laboratory and it’s just been a tremendous source of learning for me, in terms of these ideas. So these ideas that I’m describing in the book, not only come from my research, not only come from the interviews I’ve done with 50, 60 people across different professions, but also from this learning laboratory. So there is a real richness to this, and I feel pretty strong about what I’m saying.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great, thank you. Well, it’s good to hear that we have that backed up nicely. And so, I guess I’d like to hear… So the conviction notion is a sense of purpose, why it’s worth it for you. And that could cover any number of things, like, “It’s the only way”, “It must be done”, or “It’s going to help so many people” or “It’s going to mean real money, which matters to my family” or something. So you connect that. And so then with the “clarity” piece, the thing we’re getting clarity on is just kind of like the risk and reward of the matter? It’s not so much the action, but what could unfold?

Andy Molinsky
It’s my feelings about it. So if you’re stepping into a situation and let’s say your fear might be giving a speech. I don’t know, public speech, let’s say. And your fear is that you will flop, you’ll be so incredibly uncomfortable, you will be so embarrassed, it’ll be so awful, you’ll be the laughing stock – whatever it might be – it’ll be a disaster, it’ll be the end of your career.
I think when people get anxious about something that’s outside their comfort zone, that truly feels outside of their comfort zone, I think they can often times go off the deep end, or they might say to themselves, “It’s not okay just to be okay. I’m only doing this if I wow everybody, if they see me as a prodigy, if Toastmasters wants to sign me up to be on their webpage, ’cause I’m so incredible as a speaker.” So, people often times have exaggerated views of where they have to be in order to do it, in other words on the plus side, but even more often on the negative side, they sort of fall off the balance beam.
And so what clarity is is it’s not looking for the best possible outcome, the ideal wishful outcome, it’s not looking for the worst possible nightmare outcome; it’s looking at the most realistic outcome, which in the case there might be, “I’m going to work hard and practice giving this speech. I haven’t given many before, so it’s probably not going to be a homerun the first time around, but you know what? I might do better than I think and I definitely will learn something from it.” Do you know what I mean? That sort of middle range realistic thinking. And it’s not easy to do, but I think it’s really critical to be able to develop that capacity, to enable yourself to step into these situations.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood. And then I’d love to hear some examples, some fun stories that tie it all together, and in particular I’m curious about the creative customizations that have happened to make it pop for folks. So, I guess in your experience, do some dramatic transformations come to mind?

Andy Molinsky
I’m trying to think of some examples. So, there’s a variety of different tools you can use to customize. The woman that I told you about earlier, who was afraid of being assertive with her jerk colleague – she ended up customizing her situation, so that’s an example I can tell you about. She used body language – that was one of her big tools.
She used a lot of things – she scripted out a few sentences, she put on a power suit, and the power suit – that’s a perfect example of a prop, because no one knew that it was a power suit, but for her, privately, she knew this was her power suit, and she sort of felt really good wearing it. And then she also customized by… She told me that she walked up and down the hallway with a power pose walk, just sort of like, “I can do this strong walk back and forth.” And then she opened the door of his office without knocking – another customization. She walked in and she closed the door without asking, which would’ve put her down in power position. And so on, so you know what I mean? She customized it in her way by almost scripting it out like an actor would, but not word for word.

Pete Mockaitis
What did she say? I’m on the edge of my seat.

Andy Molinsky
Right, exactly. But you know what I’m saying? I think there are a lot of ways that what customization can do. And if you think about it, we’re sort of in an era of customization – we customize our lattes, we customize our cappuccinos, we customize our shoes, our clothes, all sorts of things. Actually it is sort of like clothes – it’s like you buy a pair of pants but it might not fit you off the rack, you might need to tweak it a little bit. You need to shorten here, tuck out there. That’s the same thing – we can take situations and we can personalize them a little bit, and often times even just a little bit gives us a little bit more control and power.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood, and that’s so great. But my human psyche has to hear the story completed, Andy. She stepped into his office, closed the door. What did she say?

Andy Molinsky
So she steps into the office, she closes the door, she walks up to his desk, she holds on to the desk, you can imagine, she almost stands over the desk in a very powerful stance. And I remember when she was telling me this story I said to her, “Ah, so you were sort of doing a power pose there to feel really powerful and intimidating?” And she laughed and said to me, “No, I was afraid I was going to faint.”
I forget her exact words, and I don’t even know if she told me her exact words, but essentially what she said is she crafted out an assertive statement, “When you do this, it makes me feel this way. You can’t do that anymore.” So something along those lines, that was not apologetic. It was straight forward, it addressed the behavior straight on, and it was done in a very confident, powerful way.
She then left and he never did it again. And, by the way, this then carried over, and that’s what was kind of cool. She started to realize, “Hey, I can actually do this. I can be assertive, and you know what? I don’t care that he didn’t like me. It’s sort of irrelevant that he didn’t like me or whether he liked me or not.” And she started to be a bit more assertive in other aspects of her job as well. So, it was a bit of a pivotal moment for her.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great, and I’d imagine it can have carry over even in a broader sense of fostering a real sense of the growth mindset, like, “Hey, I couldn’t do that and then I did do that. And so therefore this other thing I think I can’t do, I can probably do that as well.” So it could just spill over in all kinds of excellent ways.

Andy Molinsky
Exactly, that’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
So tell us then – we’re getting on board with the conviction, the clarity, the customization. I’m wondering now, are there customized or segmented solutions or approaches based on the type of psychological obstacle and resistance you get, or is it kind of all the same, whether I’m feeling a sense of panic or anxiety or a sense of, “Ugh, I don’t want to deal with that”. Do I tackle that differently?

Andy Molinsky
I didn’t find that necessarily. I didn’t find that. I found that the source that would make people fear or avoid something were those roadblocks we talked about before, and then people would find their own recipe. I talk about in the book about how it’s really like a “make your own” type of recipe. You know how if you like to cook… I love to cook, and my kids will tell you that I never follow recipes. But I have a sense of the idea of what I want to do and I pick and choose and I sculpt something that works for me.
And so, it’s the same thing here. What I found is that people experimented, they tried out different things, different situations had different opportunities to them, and they sort of worked with what was available, what they had, what they were capable of and the resources that they saw, and then they crafted something. What I think in one of the benefits of the book, is that by giving people these tools more explicitly, like saying, “Hey, this is what I found. Here are some tools”, I’m imagining that people who read the book will be able to really more purposefully craft their solutions based on what I suggest. So that’s kind of cool.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. So I guess I’m wondering – let’s say a listener right now, here, today, is experiencing some psychological obstacle, some resistance to something. What would you say is the very first step, or maybe the menu of potential very first steps?

Andy Molinsky
Well, the first step would be to try to understand where the source of the challenge is, where exactly that’s coming from – try and really understand that. And I think that that’s really critical for people. Often times people feel – as you sort of described earlier in your situation – kind of amorphous, dull sense of anxiety or worry or wanting to avoid. I think you said it was like an “Ugh” experience, right? I think that’s what most people feel.
But I think having a language to actually identify where that’s coming from, is actually really powerful. I think it starts to give you a bit more control over your fear and over the situation. That would be step 1. And I outline this in the book, and in fact I give the tools. So I would say, use the tools at the back of the book – I’ve got ways for people to learn to develop that sense of realistic clarity, and then I have tools for people to try to figure out their own capacity to customize their situation.
And I think that there are other tools that are important, one of which is finding a forcing mechanism, I think a way to really nudge yourself, I think that clarity, I think customization, and I think that conviction are critical. And I think that those can sort of be, as I said before, the wind at your back to try to find some forcing mechanism, some way to nudge yourself forward.
Because I think what I’ve found time and time again from both people I’ve interviewed, people I’ve worked with one and one and also from the learning laboratory I told you before at the Business School, that once you actually do it and you’re on the other side of avoidance, it’s a very different situation. So that’s what I would suggest.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, thank you.

Andy Molinsky
And once you’re successful – email me and tell me about your story.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, that was such a fun story earlier with the marching into the office situation. So I want to cover a couple of quick things before we wrap up here. So, do you have any other tips and tricks when it comes to building confidence?

Andy Molinsky
I think that there are a lot of ways that you can find confidence. You can understand that you’ve been there before. You think that this is a hard time stepping outside your comfort zone? Think about your own life – you’ve learned to walk, when you never could walk before. I have kids; I see them going through these milestones that they’re scared to do something and then they’re able to do it. You’ve gone off to college probably. Maybe many of our listeners may have gone off to college to live alone for the first time. You’ve probably tried a job that if it’s your first job, it’s a job you’ve never had before. You’ve had responsibilities you’ve never had before. Pete, you’re podcasting; there was a time you’ve never done this before. You’ve stepped outside your comfort zone.
If you sort of replay your life – yes, you’re in a situation that’s outside your comfort zone, but the reality is that you’ve been there before, this can be a déjà vu for you. So I think that there’s confidence within you. That’s my point of view. So, that’s one source. There’s a variety of ways, and I think really finding a way to load up the deck for you to take that leap – that is the critical part, because I think the most confidence is going to come afterwards.

Pete Mockaitis
So good, thank you. Well, a bit of a side dish to what we’re talking about – I really enjoyed the blog post you had, Secrets for Silencing Your Inner Critic. Can you offer a couple of those secrets?

Andy Molinsky
Yeah, that was a fun article to write. I’ve started a couple of months ago as a columnist, I write a lot for Harvard Business Review and Psychology Today, and I just started at Inc.com, which is super fun. I love writing for Inc.com. So in that article I talk about silencing your inner critic. And a lot of us feel that way and that holds a lot of us back.
I found that this idea of clarity that I talked about before is critical – the term I think I use in the article is to let your rational self “take the wheel”. In other words, in some ways it’s an emotional reaction, that inner critic, but if you can sort of muster the power of your rational self, you can realize that there’s a lot that you have to be proud of and that you don’t need to be so critical of yourself.
Another tip that I offer is to remember your best self. Things might not be ideal now if you’re critical of yourself, but was that always the case? I think often times, and this gets back to the clarity issue, when we’re sort of anxious or depressed, we often over-generalize. We forget all the positives and we fixate on the negatives.
It would be the equivalent of if it’s raining one day, you say that the weather here is always rainy. Well, sure, during this week, but not during the year. And if you use that as an analogy and look at the totality of the experiences you have, you’ll realize there’s ups and downs, pluses and minuses, and I think that’s very grounding and important to recognize, especially when you’re beating yourself up. So those are some examples. I think it’s a tough thing that a lot of us experience. But I got a lot of feedback from that article, so I sense that it sort of struck a cord.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s good. Thank you. Okay, so now you tell me – is there anything else you want to make sure we cover off before we shift gears and talk about some of your favorite things?

Andy Molinsky
No, I think you did a great job. It was really fun to talk about the book. If you’re listening out there, I really hope that you check out Reach. I’m really proud of the book, and I would love for you to read it and let me know what you think. So that’s really it.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, can do. Well then, could you start us off by sharing, since you’re a researcher, a favorite study or experiment that you like?

Andy Molinsky
Favorite study or experiment. So, I guess I have to think about my own. I don’t mean to be too self-serving here. So some of the original academic research that I did years ago that I talk about in Reach, it sort of started me off in this direction, was work that I have done with a colleague from Harvard Business School, a graduate school friend who’s a professor at Harvard Business School now, and we did research on what we called “necessary evils”.
So these were tasks at work where you have to cause pain or discomfort to someone, but it’s part of your job. And so we studied doctors, pediatric physicians performing painful procedures on children and delivering bad news to the parents of children. And I can tell you, it was ironic and very interesting, tough situation for me because right around the time I was doing this research, my own daughter had to have, at 7 days old, she had to have a spinal tap.
She was okay, and she’s okay, she’s fine. But at the time we didn’t know that. And imagine being a parent of a 7-day-old child, holding her down as doctors are performing a spinal tap on her back. It’s this massive needle on her back, and this little tiny child. And what was so bizarre and surreal for me is that as I was holding her there, I had just weeks prior, months prior, been interviewing doctors. Not the ones who’d performed the procedure, but doctors performing similar procedures and talking about their experience inside their head. So that was a very interesting opportunity. I wouldn’t have chosen it, but it was an interesting opportunity to peer into the backstage of their experience.
So, we studied doctors performing painful procedures, managers laying off and delivering bad news, police officers evicting people from their homes. So as part of this research, I actually personally did what they call a “ride-along” – I was in the back of a police car for an entire day and we performed 20 evictions in a major metropolitan city. And so I had a flak jacket and everything on and I also hung out at the police station for many many days, interviewing police officers, learning about their lives.
And so that really gave me some insight. So you mentioned research study. I think that’s pretty apropos, given what we’re talking about now, because that was some of the origins of this book. The book is a user-friendly book for anybody, but in terms of backstage research, that’s one of my favorites.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it sounds fascinating. Can you let us know, is there the publication itself or a more non-academic, general population-friendly sentences we might access that?

Andy Molinsky
In the book Reach, it’s covered there.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, fun. And could you share a favorite quote for us? Something you find inspiring.

Andy Molinsky
Sure. This is funny. Strangely enough, a colleague of mine sent me a quote this morning, randomly. She was excited about my book and she sent me this quote and I thought it was pretty relevant. From Eleanor Roosevelt – the quote is, “Courage is more exhilarating than fear. And in the long run it is easier. You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face.” I thought that was a very good one.

Pete Mockaitis
It is good, thank you.

Andy Molinsky
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite book?

Andy Molinsky
Sure. I’ll give you two. I love the book Difficult Conversations by Doug Stone and Sheila Heen. It’s just a fantastic book about how to have difficult conversations. The copy in my office is so worn out, it looks like someone took a bite out of it. Another book I love is Eva Hoffman’s book Lost in Translation about a little girl from Poland moving to Canada, and about sort of the experience of culturation and stepping outside your cultural comfort zone as a little child. It’s a really cool book.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And do you have a favorite product or tool or app that helps you be more awesome at your job?

Andy Molinsky
My Bose headphones maybe?

Pete Mockaitis
There you go, noise canceling action. I love those, yes.

Andy Molinsky
Exactly, yeah. If you see me around town, that’s what I’ll be in.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit or personal practice?

Andy Molinsky
I think I’m pretty good at knowing when I’m at my best, so if I feel like I’m at my best, I might work a little longer than I was expecting and try to get more done, because I feel like I’m really in the zone. And when I feel like I’m not at my best – if I’m feeling distracted or whatever it might be – I’ll stop working and I’ll do something else. I might go run or whatever it might be, or take a walk with my dog. But to sort of have that meta-level perspective on your own effectiveness, I find that that’s kind of a key tool.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent, thank you. And how about a favorite nugget or gem, something that you share that gets people nodding their heads, doing Kindle book highlighting, etcetera? They’re like, “Yes, Andy’s brilliant.”

Andy Molinsky
Well, I end my book with this, and I do really believe this. And so, this is how I end my book, this sentence: “No one ever said getting outside your comfort zone is easy, but with a solid plan in place, and the courage to take it forward, your results can be extraordinary.” And I really believe that, I’ve seen it. And so, that’s a nugget.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, thank you. And what would you say is the best way for folks to learn more about you or get in touch?

Andy Molinsky
Well, lots of ways. So I have a website, and maybe in your show notes you’ll be able to link to that – so that’s AndyMolinsky.com. I’m on Twitter; I’m very active on LinkedIn and Twitter, and I have a public author Facebook where I post lots of cool stuff on it. Don’t Snapchat me, ’cause I’m really bad at it. My 12-year-old daughter loves to do it, and I’m sort of learning, but not too good at it. And all kidding aside, I love to connect with readers, so if read the book and you really like it, find it useful, have a story to share – please reach out.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, certainly. Well, closing, do you have a final call to action or challenge for those seeking to be more awesome at their jobs?

Andy Molinsky
Step outside your comfort zone. Be honest with yourself – is there something that you feel that you might be rationalizing away, something that you say to yourself, “Ah, no, this isn’t the time to do it” or “I don’t really need to do this”? But if you were able to strip away the anxiety, that actually might be something you’d like to do. Try to identify that and give it a shot. And if you take a look at my book, I think you’ll get some really helpful tips and tools and insights about how to do that. But that would be my call to action.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Andy, thank you so much. This has been a treat, and I hope that Reach is a smashing success here.

Andy Molinsky
Thank you. This has been really really good. I’ve really enjoyed the conversation, so I appreciate you having me on.