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Confidence Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Aug 21
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1086: How to Unlock Personal Power and Deep Confidence with Chris Lipp

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Chris Lipp reveals the key to owning the room and boosting your confidence.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to end self-consciousness
  2. A 5-minute ritual to prime your power
  3. Two behaviors that naturally earn you respect

About Chris

Chris Lipp is the author of The Science of Personal Power: How to Build Confidence, Create Success, and Obtain Freedom. His work has appeared in several media outlets including Harvard Business Review, Forbes, and Fast Company. He is a professor of management communication at Tulane University. Chris also published two books on communication, Magnetic: How Great Leaders Persuade and Inspire, and The Startup Pitch.

Resources Mentioned

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Chris Lipp Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Chris, welcome!

Chris Lipp
Great to be here. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to hear about The Science of Personal Power: How to Build Confidence, Create Success, and Obtain Freedom. Listeners are often asking for pro tips and tricks to greater confidence. Could you share with us any particularly surprising and fascinating discoveries you’ve made as you study this stuff over the years?

Chris Lipp
Well, without even talking about personal power, if you have a higher personal power, you prime yourself, for example, to go into an interview with higher personal power versus lower, you’re 81% more likely to get the job, doing nothing else.

So, a lot of times, today, yeah, career, right, there’s so much advice on how to communicate, how to do this, a lot of tactical advice. But if you’re simply grounded in your power, when you walk into a meeting, when you walk into an interview, when you walk into a pitch, you’re 80% more likely to succeed. I think that’s fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is fascinating on many levels. One, I mean, we love it when a quick and easy thing you can do is transformative. So, we’re going to dig into all kinds of detail on how that is executed. But also, it just kind of makes you think, “Well, huh, shouldn’t, you know, these decision-makers, as they’re doing their hiring or their business investing, ideally, optimally, be making decisions based upon, you know, the needs on the ground of what’s going on, and whether or not your pitch or your expertise and experience is exactly what is needed in that moment?”

But apparently there’s enough, given the system that showing up great gives you an 81% boost.

Chris Lipp
Yeah, well, I think there’s a misunderstanding in what you just said there because why personal power is important? You know, we do live in this environment where we value people who have great skills, and yet we see a lot of times there are people who are brilliant and yet they’re not getting advanced in their career, right? Sometimes they’re even being let go.

This happened to me. I was talking to a fellow at Lockheed Martin, and he was saying, you know, “There’s one brilliant guy, like everybody couldn’t even follow his work, he was so brilliant.” But eventually he was the one who got let go and other people were getting raised up.

And his lesson there, because now he’s a fellow, he’s basically the top of a sole contributor you can be, a manager, sole contributor. But he said, you know, a way that would be unhelpful in looking at that is, “Oh, it’s about politics or there’s connections or etc.” And he’s like, “It’s not about that at all.” He said, you know, his take was it’s about communication, right? And the difference between a great communicator versus an ineffective communicator is what really creates that gap.

But then you talk about, “Okay, well, what is great communication?” And there’s storytelling and there’s all these different ways of communication that’s taught today. In fact, I teach management communication at Tulane University. In business school, I’ve taught at Rice University. I’ve led some workshops and I was a director at Stanford in the business school there. And so, I’ve done a lot in communication.

And what people don’t understand, particularly when we think about the skills we bring into a position, is we’re not just being evaluated, well, we’re being evaluated in the knowledge we bring, but we’re also being evaluated on whether or not we have the power to bring that knowledge forward.

So, like, for example, there’s a lot of politics. We can look in politics, but an easy, easy way to look at this is you got two candidates for president, for example, right? We think of the stronger candidate as more capable of bringing forth their vision and executing.

So just think about that now in terms of work. It’s not just how smart you are, it’s, “Do you demonstrate the qualities that say, ‘Wow, I can trust this person to lead the team forward and execute.’?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Okay, so that’s a point well made in terms of it’s not just about, “Oh, I thought I liked his confident tone of voice, but rather these domains, these dimensions really do matter insofar as your effectiveness in the role or idea that you’re pitching in the first place.”

Chris Lipp
Right? And what I mean, what is confidence, right? Confidence isn’t this some veneer of false pretense. Confidence often comes from somebody who just absolutely knows their stuff and they walk in like, “This is the way it is.” And we’re communicating that subconsciously at so many different levels. And the person is like, “This person knows what they’re talking about,” right?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s well said, “This person knows what they’re talking about.” So, let’s hear, when you mentioned that 81% boost, when one primes oneself for personal power, what does that priming process consist of?

Chris Lipp
I’ll give you like the first, I think the most powerful exercises in the whole book that I wrote on personal power, which is, there are many, many different ways to prime yourself. But in this case, what’s one way you can do that? One thing you often hear in various contexts is the power of authenticity, right, “If I’m authentic, I’ll show up differently. People will respect me for,” and there’s a truth to that depending on the type of authenticity you bring forward.

So, have you ever been through like a difficult situation? Like, for example, let’s say that your kids are sick, right? Or there’s this one woman I knew who she had a normal career, right? And all of a sudden, she went through a divorce and now money is tight and she’s got a daughter to take care of, okay? All of a sudden, she realizes, “Hey, the income I’m bringing in right now is not sufficient. I need to do something else.” And it was like a fire for her daughter. There was like a fire lit under her.

She went out, she started like doing a huge amount of outreach and just like quintupled, five times her salary. And I think it just exploded in her success. And, okay, so we think about that. Well, there’s this need, this hunger. Well, where does this hunger come from? Well, it’s ultimately about being connected with ourselves. So personal power is a belief in our own capability to create impact.

What does that mean? Well, that means that we have a belief in ourselves. That means we’re anchored in ourselves. So, by tapping into, for example, our values, we anchor deeper into ourselves and we show up differently than when we’re, for example, nervous about what the other person thinks. I could almost argue that self-consciousness is the opposite of being anchored in our values because we’re more worried about what other people think than what we think.

With that context now, what’s a simple exercise you can do to tap into your personal power? Twenty minutes before an interview, 20 minutes before a performance review, sit down, take out a list of values. I give a list in my book, but you could just go online, like, “What is the list of values?” Pick the top three to help sort them. And then from the top three, pick your number one value in that list, irrespective of work, just your number one value in your life.

And now this is where the prime comes in. For four to five minutes, take a pen and paper and write down why this value is important to your life. As you write down the value, it’s just like my colleague and her daughter, like it anchors you into what’s valuable to you. And when you’re anchored in yourself, you’re anchored in your power, doing nothing else, no interview prep, not a better resume, none of that nonsense. You just will show up differently and you’re almost twice as likely to succeed.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool, cool. Well, so can you give us an example then of, for you or a recent client working through this exercise, a top value and what that writing can sound like?

Chris Lipp
Well, just imagine like, so you go online and you go on, you find your thing and you’re like, “Okay, maybe it’s family, maybe it’s independence, maybe it’s honesty.” I mean, literally any value, but the importance is not the value. The importance is that it’s a value resonant for you. So, if I were to do this exercise, I’ve done this exercise in the past, right? I do that. You know, maybe what comes up on the top, depending on the list of values I’m using, it might be, let’s say, compassion.

So, I will write about why compassion is so important in my life, why it’s meaningful to my relationships, why it’s meaningful to the people I love, and how that really is really the anchor of my whole life. Suddenly, like this interview doesn’t seem like such a big deal. It’s like, “Yeah, okay, I’ve got an interview but my life is so much more rich than that, and I feel whole and complete right now in this moment.”

And now I show up very differently than if I’m going in and I’m like nervous, “Okay, what’s this person thinking of me? Am I making the right answers? Am I doing the right job?” which is a concern. Self-consciousness, which is pulling us out of our power.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you there in terms of if you’re really grounded in on, “Compassion is the most important thing and this is why it’s the most important thing,” and then you are in that interview space, it doesn’t seem like it matters all that much in terms of they say, “Chris, you are the worst candidate we’ve interviewed all week. I’m surprised they passed your resume in,” just like the ultimate disaster that could unfold in interviews. It’s like you could just shrug your shoulders, it’s like, “Huh, that’s kind of disappointing, but all right, well, that’s really not shaking the core of who I am and what I’m about in any way, shape, form.”

Chris Lipp
And, you know, it’s fascinating, too. Like, when people who are in their personal power, they negotiate significantly better too, just for that reason. Like, they’re not worried about the other person’s negative reaction because it just flows over them. But now I’m not saying that the whole reason you succeed is because you suddenly don’t care.

I coach a lot of founders who are raising money, series A, series B, all these things. And sometimes founders will come to me, and they’ll be like, “Okay, I’m going to do this. I’m going to go into the investor,” you know, very high stakes, right, because they’re asking for like five, $10 million. “I’m just going to act like I don’t care.”

I’m like, “Hold on. You do legitimately care, right? So, you pretending is actually going to come off as like boisterous or fake or arrogant. I mean, there’s a lot of negative ways that faking it comes off and it can actually diminish your chances.” So, what happens is, when you’re in your power, I mean, it’s not as pressure on you, that’s for sure. But also, you’re just more goal-focused, more naturally goal-focused.

So, when you get into an interview, for example, or you get into a pitch, you’re focused on achieving the goal. And in the case of an interview, you’re focused on the goal of determining whether you’re a good fit for them and they’re a good fit for you. So, your natural goal focus makes you more powerful.

There’s this one story. So, Steve Jobs was talking with a guy from Shark Tank. Who’s the guy who’s called Mr. Wonderful? Do you know who I’m talking about?

Pete Mockaitis
Kevin O’Leary.

Chris Lipp
Kevin O’Leary. So, Kevin O’Leary is sharing this story about the time he had to negotiate with Steve Jobs for his software for the Mac. And he was like, “Look, this is what we need from Apple in order to move forward next year because of our company expenses and stuff.”

And Steve got really pissed and started shouting at him and casting aspersions, yelling at him. He’s like, “Okay, I guess the meeting is done.” So, he packed up and walked out, and then as he’s walking to his car in the parking lot, he’s like, he said Steve opened the window from the meeting room and still yelling at him and cursing at him.

And he just looks up, he’s like, “Well, do we have a deal or not?” And Steve is like, “I don’t know. Call me on Monday.” He just let it roll over you because you’re focused. It’s not that you don’t care, but you’re just focused on the goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is really good. And what you say about negotiation, it really does ring true is if you’re…it’s so funny this little self-consciousness in terms of like, “Oh, I don’t want to seem like I’m cheap, or I’m ungrateful, or I don’t appreciate all of the things that they’ve done for me, or that I think that they’re stupid, or that they can’t do it,” like whatever, like that’s all self-consciousness.

Chris Lipp
Yeah, defensiveness.

Pete Mockaitis
And as opposed to, so when you just like, delete all of that junk in your mental bandwidth, go figure, you show up much better.

Chris Lipp
That’s exactly right. Some people, when they’re self-conscious, they get nervous. Other people get aggressive. Other people get defensive. But they’re all, you’re right, it’s just expressions of the same thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so now, talking about these values, this has come up several times, and I think some people have a really great sense of their values, like, “Yeah, this is what it’s about. I can rattle them off. Boom, boom, boom, boom.”

And others are like, “Yeah, I’ve heard that’s a thing that I should do. And I guess, you know, things like family and faith and fitness and friendship and adventure are important to me.” But how do you recommend that we go through the process of really dialing in, like, “Yes, this is the value that really kind of lights it up at a deep emotional soul level”?

Chris Lipp
Well, that’s just finding a value. And this is just one exercise. I think if we step back for a moment, we look at the bigger picture here. The bigger picture is that personal power underlies your confidence. It underlies your success, particularly in high-stakes environments. And so, we need to tap into our personal power.

One way is to anchor inward, and we can anchor in our values, in our goals. If you’re goal-focused, I mean, you don’t have to go through an exercise. You just walk in, and as long as you’re cognitively thinking about the goal, you will remain more focused during that conversation. In fact, that’s a power move if you’re in a group.

First off, if you’re in a group and you want to demonstrate power, it’s not about being aggressive. Actually, one of the most powerful things you can say is, “Okay, what’s the main goal here?” Right? It shows that you’re focused on the goal and everybody will see that.

Or you could say, “Hey, this is our goal. We need to move forward with this.” And so, we’re not dominating. We’re trying to move the group forward, and this is how, of course, we get status within a hierarchy.

So, think about this, we all want formal power. We want more money, more influence, more impact. And the way to get formal power is to display status characteristics, to show that we’re big. This is how we convey sort of a sense of power outward, and status is not, you know, people get this confused, like, “Does that mean I need to be a jerk? Does that mean I need to be aggressive?”

Actually, status has zero correlation with being nice and being aggressive. And so, it has zero correlation with agreeableness. And what that means is that your personality, whether you’re warm or hard, is irrelevant. It’s not about that. It’s about how much do you, for example, serve the group.

I don’t need my leader to be warm and snuggly with me. In fact, that might actually backfire in my respect for them. I need to know this person’s going to make the thing, that our team is working towards, a reality. They’re going to launch us to the moon. They’re going to make the product forward because we’re all putting our blood, sweat, and tears. We don’t want a leader who’s warm. We want a leader who’s successful.

Now they can be hard. They can be warm. It’s nice to be warm. There’s nothing wrong with that but there’s a mistake between understanding what it means to value people versus being nice. You get the difference? You’re not nice here to a child who you’re trying to teach proper discipline to. You’re caring, but you’re caring in a strong way.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. So, tell us more. So, the status behaviors are indicating that you’re going to get the job done, you’re going to achieve the goal, you’re going to make it happen, and you’re serving people toward that end. What are some of the other stops?

Chris Lipp
I’m so, so happy. I mean, I’ve just given you, like, crumbs, and you made the whole bread loaf out of them. That’s amazing, what you said, because you’re right, status is really two things. When we’re on hierarchy, how do we get status? Well, it’s two ways. One is we demonstrate our service to the group. And number two is we demonstrate our assertiveness, which basically is a way to demonstrate that we can move forward with the value we have towards the group. So, you’ve got this assertiveness and you’ve got the value itself.

Okay. Well, so that’s what status is. And we send all these unconscious signals out, it comes in the way we speak, whether we’re speaking more abstractly or concretely, it comes whether we’re focused on action or deliberation. There are all these ways that we would never even detect that we’re communicating status to the people around us.

And so, what is personal power? Well, personal power is the step back behind that. It is the psychology underlying status behaviors which then lead to formal power. From an evolutionary perspective, this is all, I mean, we’re talking academic, we’re talking science, I can give you real world examples, but in the end of the day, we’re human beings with a human mind, a human body.

And what happens is, evolution has programmed into us like these, somebody, the person who’s going to be most powerful, they’re already powerful in their head, and it’s just projecting off them very naturally. And then from that, then we know this person is the leader. Wolf doesn’t have to tell everybody else who is the king of the wolfpack. It’s natural.

And that’s why it’s so interesting to look at the psychology because that we do have. We can certainly, I can give you all these tips on how to communicate status and we’ll probably talk a little bit about that. But even more important is, “Well, how do you get into that mindset which is that communication happens naturally?” That’s what personal power is.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot. It kind of reminds me a little bit about method acting in terms of like sort of you could step into the character or you could step into the minutia of, “Okay, I should hold my head this way. I should use this tone of voice.” But if you’re in the groove of the character and the emotions and of the scene, it just kind of naturally flows. Like the tone of voice just is the way that that goes that corresponds to sadness or rage or kind of whatever you’re conveying there.

So, I’d love to, first, dig into that picture a little bit for status behaviors, what that looks like when I’m there. You dropped a couple of distinctions – abstractly versus concretely. And I think that, it’s so funny, as you say that, I haven’t really reflected on that before, but it makes a world of difference between when someone says, “Oh, we’ll get that to you soon,” as opposed to, “Our team will have that to you no later than Wednesday at noon.”

It was like, “Oh.” It’s night and day in terms of, “Oh, okay, this guy is making it happen. I have faith and confidence in him,” because soon is more vague and abstract as opposed to concrete.

Chris Lipp
Well, okay, this is fascinating. It’s actually like concrete language is considered more weak than abstract language.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, weak?

Chris Lipp
Yeah, your example actually demonstrates a different aspect of personal power and status, which is implementation focus. So, you’re really focused on action. So right there, there’s a time delineated point, “We’re going to do this.”

So, you have confidence these people aren’t just spinning their wheels. Research shows that leaders who deliberate like, “Okay, what are the pluses and minuses of A versus what are the pluses and minuses of B?” versus leaders who say, “Okay, here’s A and B. Here’s why I like B, and here’s what we’re going to do next.”

That’s sort of like, “Here’s the next action, the implementation focus.” Those are considered significantly stronger than the people who come in and say, “Let’s weigh the pros and the cons.” Those who are deliberating are not taking action.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Oh, yeah, let’s unpack abstractly versus concretely.

Chris Lipp
Well, so then, abstract is much more of a bigger-picture focus. So, for example, let’s take a factory, a very, kind of a stereotypical factory. You’ve got people who are making, let’s say, on auto parts on an assembly line, right? And they’re putting things together. It’s very concrete. It’s like, “I’ve got to do this five Newtons or whatever force.”

And then you go up one into the line manager. The line manager is a little more abstract, like they’re focused on efficiencies and stuff. And you go up now, let’s say, to the executive management. They’re focused on competitive strategies, all these things. So, as you rise in the hierarchy, your focus obviously gets more broad and more abstract. And that is a signal of power.

And so, the more abstract you speak, the more you can take in greater information from the environment rather than being very narrow, the more perceived power you have. And I’ll give you an example of this. At SpaceX, when Elon Musk was building SpaceX originally, he was inviting all these NASA engineers, like the top rocket scientists of the world basically. But they were so focused on the numbers.

And so, he kept, and they were doing things for, but they were used to government budgets. And because they were used to government budgets, they weren’t looking at saving money, right? And SpaceX is a whole thing about cost efficiency getting to space. That’s why you’re using reusable rockets and stuff.

So, it’s like you got to make it cost efficient. So, his job was to help the engineers see, “Hey, this is what we need to focus on. What materials can we use and substitute for this very expensive one that might be only a tenth of the price?” And so, what I’m saying here, and again, power is your ability to create impact.

But when we look at it, like, sometimes engineers, and I studied engineering myself, I was an engineer at the beginning of my career, you focus so much on the numbers, and you’re really brilliant at that. But the leader can help you give context to what makes those numbers important, where do you want to fit it in, what are the main priorities with all of that calculation you’re able to do.

And I think that’s what great engineering directors are able to do, for example, is they’re able to step out of the weeds and really understand the bigger picture so that when they dive back into the weeds, they really know their priorities and what they’re working towards. That’s the leader’s role. You get that? But it also conveys personal power. It’s just people who talk more abstractly convey more personal power.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, understood there in terms of, so abstractly, in terms of the big picture as opposed to, well, you know, it’s funny. Well, you tell me. It’s like sometimes, when people use a lot of jargon, like, “We’re going to enable an omni-channel, optimize dah, dah, dah.”

Chris Lipp
Means nothing. It’s vague. Yeah, don’t confuse abstract with vagueness. I think that’s a good lesson. Abstract, you really want to think about it more as in big picture. In fact, we’re talking about like psychology too, right? And here’s something so crazy and fascinating that I think you’ll just enjoy it and it’s ridiculous and I’m a business professor and this kind of stuff shouldn’t be interesting but it is interesting.

When you’re really focused at something really close to you like this, your eyes, you actually think more concretely when something’s close to you. When you look, for example, out into the distance, like you look at the hills or the ocean, the sunset, you will think in bigger picture abstract terms. Those circuits are connected.

So, you wonder why people feel calm when they look at it, broad canopies, broad landscapes. I think part of the reason they feel calm is just connecting us back into our personal power versus when we’re always here with all the numbers, trying to like deal with our finances and stuff. It’s all stressful and stuff. We’re out of our power.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. That makes sense. Well, so can we hear maybe just a couple more? So, the abstractly or big picture, the implementation focus. What are some other subtle things that sort of send out the vibe and we get the memo on subconsciously, like, “Ooh, this guy knows what he or she is talking about. This person has power, status”?

Chris Lipp
That’s right. And I think it’s important to go to the psychology now so you really understand why status signals work, why they’re not just these arbitrary things. I think there’s so much. Status has been reduced in the last decade to body language, like, “Oh, I just puff out my chest, big arms, all this stuff, stand up.” And that is like the superficial level of status. Like, that works right up until you open your mouth and then people judging your words.

So, if you want to get to the core of personal power, you have to get below that veneer. You have to get into the deepness. And that’s the mindset that would naturally make people expand their bodies anyway but it’s much more than just doing that. So, I’ll give you an example.

Personal powers are belief in our own capability to create impact. By the way, that’s why personal power is so beautiful. It’s not something somebody gives you, it’s something you give yourself. It’s your own belief in your own capability to create impact. Well, what creates that belief? And it’s like self-esteem. It’s something you can develop in yourself.

And so, how do we get this belief in personal power that really communicates status? And I’m explaining this so we understand why status behaviors are powerful, to dig deeper than just sort of like pretending to have, for example, you know powerful body language.

One of the biggest ways we communicate our power is through taking responsibility. In fact, they did this big study and they looked at managers, and then they said, “Okay, I want you, group of managers, explain to us, if you had to freeze the salary of your team, how would you explain it to your team? It’s just a hypothetical situation. You can make up whatever you want.”

And roughly half the managers kind of talked about, “This is, you know, the market conditions aren’t great,” or, “I don’t have the influence, whatever higher ups.” And the other half of the managers, they, they said, “Well, you know, I did not promote your achievements as a team well enough to upper management.” And they, basically took the hit.

So, the first group blamed it on external circumstances. The second group took the hit and said, “Hey, this is my fault. I’m sorry.” And then they had a second group of – these are all real managers – they had a second group of managers come in and evaluate the answers from the first group of managers. And, far and away, the managers who took the hit were seen as more leader-ly, more responsible, more trustworthy, and more likable than those managers who blamed others.

This tells us not something just about status and the way that people observe each other in the hierarchy of business. It shows us that people who believe they have impact in the world, tend to see that they have a sense of control over things. They believe they have impact. And so, because they have the sense of control that they can influence things outside of them, they tend to take responsibility for what happens. They say, “Oh, that happened. I realized I could have done something to change the outcome. And because I didn’t, it’s my failure.”

So, taking responsibility is an act of power, whereas blame shows a lack of power. So important, right? And if you look at AI, like actually AI has mixed results on whether it makes you appear stronger or weaker in business. But if you look at when it makes you appear weaker using AI, people who blame their bad results on using AI are the ones who are the most diminished in there, right? Because you see, it’s blame. It’s saying, “Oh, this is not my fault, this is AI.”

But a personal power person would never say that. They’d say, “You know what? I should not have put all my energy into AI. I should have looked at this myself. This is totally my fault.” And that’s how you’ll see a lot of great CEOs talk, too. They’ll be like, “This is my fault. I take responsibility for this.” Blame is a lack of power. Taking responsibility is an act of power.

We talk about how to be awesome at your job. This is it. I think if you’ve ever felt overlooked or boxed in or underestimated, you’re not alone, but it’s not the end of your story. And one of the first things you can do is to take responsibility for what’s happening in the workplace, and then start to take responsibility for the things that you’re not succeeding at as well as you’d like.

And I think, because when we’re out of our power, when we’re out of our power, we believe the environment controls us. And you know, we’re like, “Oh, the boss’s pressures, and this pressures and that pressures,” what we’re really signaling to ourselves and to everybody else is, like, we don’t have power.

And so, honestly, if you feel underestimated and overlooked and you feel all these things, you’re going to want to naturally blame. But what I’m saying is the first step to accessing your power is going to be taking responsibility for what you can control and how you can work within the restrictions you are in. And as you do that, you will feel a greater sense of power in yourself and you will begin to show up differently in the environment.

And that’s when things will change. Things will never change if you continue to stay in a state of disempowerment. Period. All right. So, that’s the harsh reality pill.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Well, so then I’d love to hear then, so what are the top practices that are just transformational in terms of bringing more personal power to bear?

Chris Lipp
One of them is taking the big picture. So, I’ll give you three, three ways that you can show power in terms of service for the group. And one way is just to communicate the value that you deliver. So, I think, a lot of times we get stuck in just demonstrating what we’ve done without really communicating the value to anybody else. And why this is important to the big project, for example, why this is important to your colleagues.

What do you think, Pete, is the most persuasive word in the English language?

Pete Mockaitis
Maybe someone’s name.

Chris Lipp
Oh, yeah, you’re actually right. But it’s inconsistent, so what’s the second most powerful word?

Pete Mockaitis
Immediately.

Chris Lipp
No, no, it’s not. I mean, you’re dead on with the name. The most powerful persuasive word, well, not powerful. The most persuasive word in the English language is the word you. Just a pronoun. The most liked TED Talks correlate with the most use of the word you in them. Leaders at the top in the middle of the hierarchy use the words you and we significantly more than people at the bottom that use the word I.

What does this show us? Well, this tells us that when you’re using the word you, you’re often focused on what you’re delivering to other people, “Here’s what you’ll get,” “Here are some of the challenges you’re facing,” “Here’s how I’ll help you overcome those challenges.” It’s like a sales rep, right, for a client. You’re really focused not on bad sales.

I always say this to entrepreneurs, “Bad pitches focus on the product. Because the product’s all about me, my, what I think, what I want, my idea. Nobody cares.” Bad pitches focus on the product. Good pitches focus on the value of the product to the audience. So, what does the audience get as a result of this, right?

What do investors get if they’re investing in you? What does the company get? What does your director get? What does your manager get? What do your colleagues get? Why is this a value to the organization and your team specifically? And if you can start to think in those terms, you’ll start to demonstrate that you’re delivering value to the organization, to the people, not even the organization, just the people around you, and that will start to lift your status, number one.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that a lot. I don’t know what self-help book I was listening to in the ‘80s or ‘90s, but it was a little corny, but I think it’s so accurate in terms of folks saying, they said, “Everyone is listening to the same radio station, WIIFM, what’s in it for me?” and it’s so true.

When you speak about things in terms of the other person’s needs, goals, values, what they want, as opposed to, “This is why I’m so amazing, and cool, and nifty, and innovative, and distinctive.” It’s like, “Yeah, I don’t care about any of that. Are you going to help me achieve my goals better than without you?” And so, when you speak those you-words, you’re getting right to the heart of that.

Chris Lipp
Right. And I’m going to put it in terms now for your listeners, like, this is why you have such great listeners and then why they’re listening to you, right? It’s because you’re delivering value. So, everybody who’s listening right now, you’re listening because you want to get something from this experience, right? And so, there’s got to be value here for you.

But now, here’s the trick, is in this case, you’re the consumer. But now when you go talk to your colleagues and things, you become the deliverer. And so, you can’t use the same mindset with which you’re listening to a podcast in order to bring to your work because it’s no longer about you. Now you have to be the podcast host delivering value to the people that you’re working with.

You see that mindset shift. I think people, particularly in the US, we’re a consumer culture, and so, so often we’re focused on, “What does everybody bring in me?” But in the workplace, yeah, it’s the opposite. Now you have to demonstrate what you’re bringing everybody else.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really good. Well, tell me, Chris, any final things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Chris Lipp
Well, I’m going to say, there are four things. So, if you want to get ahead of your job or you’re a rising star, I’m going to give you four horsemen that will destroy your personal power. Number one is blame, right? We understand that. Number two is proving yourself. Number three is inaction, and number four is reaction. So, any of those, you blame, proving yourself, inaction or reaction. Those are the four horsemen of personal power, and if you get stuck in those, you’re dead.

Well, what do you do? What’s the opposite of those? The opposite of blame is taking responsibility. Do it everywhere you can. I know it sucks, I know it’s hard, but research is very clear that people who take responsibility for failures are respected more than people who blame their failures.

Okay, what about proving? Well, proving, we are, instead of trying to show other people how great you are, you want to focus on how you can, for example, bring more value to them as opposed to just how great you are. That’s a simple way. Curiosity is actually the opposite of proof. Curiosity is a superpower.

Inaction, obviously you focus on action instead and implementation of plans. And then reaction, instead of reacting, if you can really be proactive, or when people get angry at you and upset, if you can let it roll over you and stay focused on the goal, rather than reacting to whatever attack you might be getting or difficulty you might be getting, people will see you as more able and capable of delivering value towards their goals.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And to that point you made right at the very beginning, when you’re zeroed in on your values, what you’re all about, someone getting mad at you doesn’t seem like such a big deal.

Chris Lipp
There’s this quote that goes around social media once in a while by Warren Buffett, and I’m going to paraphrase it. It’s something along the lines of, “If you have a reaction to every negative opinion that people have of you, basically, you’re always at their mercy.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s powerful.

Chris Lipp
One of my favorite pieces of research, actually, there’s a lot of talk today about manifestation, and I know it may not be completely aligned with everybody’s business world, but there’s a book actually on manifestation just written recently by a Stanford professor who works very closely with the Dalai Lama. So, there’s something to be said about priming your mind to seek certain opportunities and ways of achieving things.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Chris Lipp
Oh, I love The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. Probably one of the first books I ever read that just changed my life.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Chris Lipp
One of my favorite tools to be awesome at my job is, I would say, is taking the time to step back from the environment and really decide what’s the bigger goal here. And I mentioned a lot, you know, these various different details. I want to give one more story. I could give research, but I think stories are so much more interesting.

I was asking this top, basically, executive at a major defense company. I was asking him, “Who do you promote when you see junior engineers come up in your division? Who do you promote?” And he said, “You know, it’s pretty simple, actually.” He’s like, “It’s funny, too. I basically bat 1,000 at knowing who’s going to get promoted and who’s not, even when I’m not their manager.”

So, he’s like, “Let’s take an example. Let’s say that we’re creating a missile for the US Navy,” because it’s a Defense Company. And he’s like, “Let’s say we got to figure out now what is the best epoxy, the best glue to hold the components together.”

And he’s like, “Well, so what’s going to happen is I’m going to task a senior engineer, a manager, to do this. And they’re going to task a junior-level manager to get it done. And then we’ll have our meeting. We’ll all come together. And now here’s kind of what will normally happen.”

He’s like, “The worst thing the junior engineer can say is just kind of give their opinion. Like, ‘I think this is the best thing,’ and without really any data.” He said, “Of course, nobody cares about a junior engineer’s opinion.” But he said, “So then, of course, the base answer,” and he’s like, “This is the minimal level, is somebody will just give the data and say, ‘This is the best answer.’”

And then he’s like, “That’s not going to get you promoted.” He’s like, “Well, you got to level up, then you give the data and you give some value as to why these numbers actually make sense in terms of the goal.” He said, “So that’s pretty good now.” He’s like, “But that’s not the person who’s going to get promoted.”

He’s like, “In fact, here’s how you judge whether somebody can get promoted or not. Somebody will come to me, they’ll sort the spreadsheet up, they’ll give me the data, they’ll say, ‘This is the epoxy I think, here’s the reasons why, dah, dah, dah, with the data.’ And then I will ask him a question.” And he’s like, “This is the question that will determine whether they get promoted or not, the way they answer this question. I’ll ask them, ‘What is the cost of this epoxy?’”

And I remember we talked about maybe NASA engineers coming to SpaceX, got to focus on costs. And that was really Elon Musk’s drive to get them to think bigger picture. He said, “If the junior engineer doesn’t know the cost of the epoxy, it tells me they don’t have a big enough understanding of the problem we’re trying to solve.”

“This is a product for a customer. And because they don’t have that big understanding, they’re not ready for management. If they know the cost of the epoxy, then they’re thinking on a bigger scale of then just their one task.” And he’s like, “That’s management material, that’s the person that’ll be promoted.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, there’s a lot of goodness in there in terms of being proactive, taking a bigger perspective, and answering not just the question being put in front of you, but advancing the goal associated with the question as much as you can.

Chris Lipp
Yes, so if you’re in a junior position, always recognize, always try to understand the goal that’s framing why your task is important. And if you’re in a management position, always communicate the goal behind the reason you’re assigning these tasks to your subordinates.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And a favorite habit?

Chris Lipp
One of my favorite habits is being present to the people I’m speaking with. And I think it’s so easy for us to see people as identities, like, “Oh, this is a waiter,” “This is the telephone representative for my credit card company,” whomever it is. We don’t see the human behind it. So, I really make it a habit, a practice to try to connect with the human on the other side.

Pete Mockaitis
Super. And can you share a favorite nugget, a Chris original quote that really seems to resonate with folks, they quote back to you often?

Chris Lipp
Blame is a lack of power. Blame shows a lack of power. Responsibility is an act of power. Bad pitches focus on the product. Good pitches focus on the value of the product for the audience.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Chris Lipp
Pick up my book, The Science of Personal Power. It’s just full of research, so it really, just like self-esteem, it explains what personal power is, how you can tap into it, and then how you can display it outward in order to get promoted into leadership positions.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Chris Lipp
Your power is always with you. Confidence is not something we create for other people. Confidence is the natural result of being plugged into ourselves and taking responsibility, feeling a sense of control for our environment. And with those two things, and a focus on action, you will find yourself acting with much more courage at work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Chris, thank you.

Chris Lipp
Pete, my pleasure.

May 26
0

1061: Making Yourself More Promotable by Building Your Presence with Lorraine K. Lee

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Lorraine K. Lee shares how to master your presence so that you can stand out and be recognized.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to make sure your work is seen by the right people in the right places
  2. The TEA framework for building great virtual presence
  3. The trick to delivering a unique and powerful introduction

About Lorraine

Lorraine K. Lee is an award-winning keynote speaker and the best-selling author of Unforgettable Presence: Get Seen, Gain Influence, and Catapult Your Career (Wiley).

Lorraine brings unique expertise in empowering both high-potential and established leaders to supercharge their presence, influence, and impact. She is passionate about helping ambitious professionals go from invisible to unforgettable in the modern workplace, and her frameworks have been adopted by Fortune 500 companies and other globally recognized organizations including Zoom, Amazon, Cisco, and McKinsey & Company. 

With hundreds of thousands of LinkedIn followers, she is recognized as a LinkedIn Top Voice in workplace communication and presence. When Lorraine isn’t speaking, she teaches popular courses at Stanford Continuing Studies and LinkedIn Learning that reach a large global audience.

Before starting her own company, Lorraine spent over a decade as a founding editor at top tech firms like LinkedIn and Prezi, where she worked on core products including the LinkedIn Daily News module and LinkedIn Newsletters.

Lorraine’s insights have been featured in media outlets including CNBC, Forbes, Inc., Bloomberg, Fast Company, and Entrepreneur.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

Lorraine K. Lee Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Lorraine, welcome!

Lorraine Lee
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m excited to be chatting as well. And I think presence is something that comes up often with listeners. And I’d like for you to start us with a particularly surprising or counterintuitive discovery you’ve made about professionals and presence while putting together your book, Unforgettable Presence.

Lorraine Lee
Oh, gosh. I feel like so many things that I had to learn the hard way over my career, but I would say one of the biggest surprises for me in my career was that doing really great hard work is not enough to get promoted, to get noticed, and to have a presence at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Really great, hard work is not enough. Can we get noticed and advance without it?

Lorraine Lee
You definitely need it. It’s definitely a foundational piece, but you need to take it one step further. So, yes, you are viewed as a great worker, someone who executes well, delivers great results, and you need to make sure that you have the presence, and that you are making sure that your work is being seen in the right places and has a presence in the right Slack channels, for example, in emails, and in all the places, essentially, where important people are who need to see your work to know about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you give us a story that illustrates this? We could see someone who was working hard, it wasn’t doing the trick, but then they did the other stuff and away they went.

Lorraine Lee
Of course. So, this is the intro that I talk about in my new book, Unforgettable Presence. And I start off sharing my experience working at LinkedIn. So, I spent most of my formative twenties at LinkedIn. It was my dream job. I worked on really exciting projects, very high-profile projects. I was well-liked by my colleagues. I liked my coworkers as well. By all accounts, looking on paper, it should have been, “Oh, of course, she’s going to get promoted at some point.”

But as hard as I tried, once I was in that mid-level position, it was really hard for me to make that jump to senior leadership, and it never ended up happening for me. And I couldn’t figure out why, I was like, “Oh, everything seems to be correct that I’m doing.” And it wasn’t until I left LinkedIn and I had more time to reflect and really think about what went wrong that I realized presence was a big piece of it, making sure I was advocating for myself, making sure I was visible, and really making sure that what I was known for in my career brand was reflecting what I wanted it to be.

And so, thankfully, that self-reflection allowed me to approach my next job with more intention, with more strategy so that I ended up getting promoted after one year there into a director-level role. And I really attribute that to all the lessons I learned while I was at LinkedIn, and all the things I saw that I could have done better. I brought that to my next company and was able to move up much faster.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, as you reflect on your time at LinkedIn, are there any particular face-palm moments of embarrassment as you think, “Oh, my gosh, I was so young and foolish and naive. I definitely should have done X, or I definitely should not have done Y”? Could you give us a couple bullet points on just some of the very clear in-hindsight retrospect specific things that were missed opportunities?

Lorraine Lee
There was one conversation I remember I had with a former coworker. And she, again, all similar to me, like well-liked, did great work. She had been at the company a little bit longer than me. And I always wondered in the back of my head, “How come she hadn’t gotten promoted yet in all the time that I knew her?”

And I remember one day, we get into the office and they announced promotions and she gets promoted. And I was so excited for her, so happy for her, I went up to her, congratulate her to talk to her about it. And I asked her, I’m kind of like, “This is so great. Like, I know you’ve been wanting this. Like, what happened? Did you have to do anything for it?”

And she shared this piece of advice with me. She said, “Oh, my manager didn’t even know that I wanted to get promoted.” And I feel like that was like a huge, just like, oh-my-gosh moment where, to me, of course, I’m like, “Oh, doesn’t everyone want to get promoted? Everyone wants to move up, and my manager knows I’m ambitious, right?”

And the fact that she had to say it, I feel like that was a huge game-changer for me in terms of like, “Oh, you have to be really explicit.” And I think even while I was at LinkedIn, I wasn’t explicit enough even after I learned that. But like later on when I moved to Prezi, I was like, “This is my goal. You know, I’m trying to reach it within a year. These are like the steps I’m going to take to get there. What do you think?” you know, checking in with my manager.

And so, I feel like that’s a big one that people don’t realize, is that there are certain assumptions we can make, like, “Oh, I’ve worked at a company for a certain number of years. Oh, I’m working on this really cool project. Definitely that’s enough to get promoted,” but there’s so much more that goes into it behind the scenes. But first things first, make it clear that that’s what you want in the first place.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, absolutely. And it’s so funny. I think that there’s a macro lesson there just in terms of assumptions. And I think it’s just our human nature to think, “Well, but of course, isn’t this what everybody wants?” And it’s not. We all want very different things for very different reasons in terms of some people say, “Do not, under any circumstances, promote me. I am loving the groove that I’m in,” talking to customers, or doing some coding, or doing the sales thing instead of leading people doing the thing. It’s like, “Do not, under any circumstances, promote me. I am digging it.”

And I think it’s so funny, just the weirdest flashback. I remember I was running a model UN Conference in college, and I got a stern email from one of the advisors of the groups that was coming to our conference, and she said, “Uh, I’m so distraught that we’re bringing all these students, but we don’t have any Security Council countries.” It’s like, “Oh, well, you didn’t put down that you want any Security Council countries.”

And you might assume that, of course, if you’re doing a model UN Conference, you want the Security Council countries. They’re awesome. But some people find that very intimidating to be in a small group of 15, you know, doing the thing. And so, I was like, “Oh, do you want these countries?” Like, “Well, yes, please.” And so away you go.

So, I think that’s huge right there, is we have assumptions about, “Well, of course, everyone wants to be promoted,” or fill in the blank for anything in your career. That’s huge right there.

Lorraine Lee
That’s such a good call. I talked to someone recently and she said her husband has, similarly, like you just said, like he does not want to get promoted because it means that he has to go into the office a few days a week. Like, his manager has really wanted to promote him and he’s like fighting it like, you know, at all costs. He’s like, “I don’t want to get promoted. I don’t want to go into the office.” So, like you said, everyone has different life circumstances and goals at different points in life.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And then, thinking from the other perspective of the manager, when the manager sees there is a big complex, tricky project coming up, exactly the sort of thing that doing well could make folks think, “Oh, maybe we should promote this person,” they don’t know. It could feel like, “Hmm, I could present this to Lorraine, but would that feel like an imposition?” Like, “Oh, more work and stress and responsibility. I’m not into that.” So, they don’t even know, “Would that be a welcome or rejected?”

Well, any other face-palm insights from your time at LinkedIn?

Lorraine Lee
I think another one was the way you present your work also needs to be strategic. So, it’s not just, “Oh, I’m going to be visible and I’m going to list off every single thing I did,” or, “Oh, I’m going to be visible and I’m going to, like, shoot off a quick email.” It actually takes, it’s a skill, which I think is also quite interesting and it took me a while to realize too.

It’s a skill to learn how to position your work, to understand the stakeholders who are receiving the information, to know how to talk yourself up, talk your team up in a way that others will embrace. And so, LinkedIn, we sent out a weekly newsletter on behalf of the whole team. And that was really great practice for me to see, “Oh,” I would put my information in and then we had someone on the team just editing the whole thing.

And sometimes he would cut things out. Sometimes he would rephrase things. And, similarly, like when I would send out an email on a project I was working on, I would show it to my manager, and say, “Hey, what do you think of the way I’m presenting this? Does this work, given the audience? Am I presenting this well?” And so, he or she, depending on my manager at the time, would go in and make edits. And so, that was also very eye-opening, how much work goes into those kinds of emails. It’s not just like a quickly dash off thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so let’s speak about that for a moment because I think it’s quite possible there’s a segment of listener who says, “Oh, that sounds miserable. And are we trying to get something done here, Lorraine? We’re trying to add value, solve problems, build, ship stuff, build features, delight customers. And we’re fiddling over how we’re wording an internal email. Is this really time well spent?” How do you respond to this?

Lorraine Lee
It is. I get it. I get you’re like, “Oh, there’s just so many other things we could be doing,” but that’s a huge part of, like I said at the beginning, like working hard, getting cool things done. I mean, that’s great. But if no one knows about it, like what’s it all for? And so, I like to use the analogy, “If a tree falls in the forest, did it make a sound?” If you worked hard, but no one knows about it, like, did it even happen, right?

So, we have to, again, mindset shift, like, in order to take control of our career, to be the CEO of our own careers, I talk about in the book, to be more intentional with our career, there’s a bunch of different puzzle pieces that go into it, and advocating for ourselves, being more visible with our work, that’s one of them. And it’s going to benefit the team. It’s going to benefit everyone when they know what you’re doing, when they can help connect dots, when you can connect dots, and really understand the impact that your team is having.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell us what would be perhaps your recommended first puzzle piece, immediate initial steps in building an unforgettable presence?

Lorraine Lee
The first thing is mindset and understanding the concept of a career brand. And so, a lot of us, we, or, you know, speaking for myself, you enter the workforce, and you just come from school, and you think there’s sort of a set path for you, “I’m going to work hard up in here for two years. I’m going to get promoted, and keep moving up the ladder.” And that’s just not the way that corporate America works at this point.

And so, to understand that and to have the mindset of, “Okay, I need to be in control of my career, be the CEO of my own career, and really take things into my own hands. So, I’ll just be passive,” and let things happen to you, I think that’s the first step. The second thing I would say is understanding this concept of a career brand, which is essentially a personal brand, but a reframe in a way that maybe makes people feel less like cringy about it.

So, personal brand is something we all have already and it’s essentially our reputation and what people say about us when we’re not in the room. So, thinking through your personal brand or career brand and understanding, “Okay, how do people currently perceive me? And how might I want them to perceive me in the future?”

Now, if I had done this exercise at LinkedIn, I would have realized, “Okay, the way that people are probably describing me, executor, hard worker, fast worker,” all these adjectives are not necessarily the adjectives that people use to describe leaders, which would be more like strategic, visionary, cross-functional collaborator, whatever it is. And so that’s really critical, too, to make sure that you are just self-aware of like where you’re at currently. And once you know that you can start making adjustments and moving towards that future self, whatever your goals are.

And then the third piece of that, I think, is your virtual presence and realizing that that’s a really important piece. Your virtual presence on video, your virtual presence on LinkedIn, those can sometimes be even more important than our in-person presence because we’re meeting most people virtually first. And so, to be intentional about that and think about, “How do I want to show up in those spaces?” is really critical.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot when you talked about the brand keywords there, like hardworking, conscientious, detail-oriented, any number of these words. These sound like good things, like, “Hey, would you rather your employee be these things or the opposite of these things?” “Well, yes, yes, yes. Hardworking, we want that, certainly.”

And yet, as you’ve nicely highlighted, those are not the same things as what we think of in terms of an executive. And I think that, in a way that is applicable for any brand that you encounter, like there’s a time and a place for Chipotle. Think about eateries. And then there’s a time and a place for, say, Chick-fil-A, or Starbucks. So, these are big, well-known brands. And yet, we can say good things about each of them, and they may not be the match for what you’re seeking in a given gathering, moment, encounter, etc.

Lorraine Lee
Yeah. And it also depends, like, “What are you striving for?” Yeah, if you like being a hard worker, you like where you’re at, and all those are positive adjectives that describe you currently, great. But if you’re wanting, like me, like I was to advance and to be seen as a leader, you have to make some adjustments and change your perception in other people’s eyes.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s just get an example here. So, if we’re thinking, okay, all right. I want folks to be putting the adjective strategic onto me, to have these things tied together in terms of my brand vibe, what might I do in the course of living my career life to get strategic associated to me?

Lorraine Lee
There’s a lot of different things you can do. I think one of the first things I always say, like when you have a goal you’re working towards something, is to lean on the people around you, and, again, like make your goals known, but also build those relationships at work so that people, they know your goals. I call it, in the book, a feedback circle.

So, find your feedback circle. Who are the people who you know want you to succeed, who are going to give you honest, truthful feedback, who are going to look out for you? And as you start doing things with them, like, “Oh, I’m going to be presenting in a meeting next week, and I want to be seen as more strategic. Can you observe my presentation and let me know if you feel like, you know, I’m closer to that or do you feel like I’m still too in the weeds?”

So, the more you can bring people into what you’re trying to do and give you the feedback, they’re going to be looking out for you because I think the hardest thing to do when you are trying to change someone’s perception of what you want to be known for, is that you need other people’s feedback. Like, you don’t want to operate in a vacuum.

So, in the book, I talk about the EPIC career brand framework as a way to start thinking through what your brand is, how you want to position yourself. And so, EPIC stands for experiences, personality, identity, community. So, that C piece, knowing how your network sees you, knowing how others see you, that’s going to be critical and making sure whatever it is that you want to change to, like you’re staying aligned.

And then I had the chance to interview Dorie Clark in the book as well. She’s amazing. And she talked about the brand as raindrops and, like, you have to keep sort of repeating, dripping, you know, multiple mentions of your brand, and keep mentioning it, especially if you’re trying to change it, over time in many different places. It’s not like a flip of a switch, all of a sudden, you’re strategic. It’s going to take a little bit of time, consistent actions, consistent visibility, and just staying consistent with your actions in order for other people to see you like that.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear that, that makes a lot of sense there. We’ve had Dorie on the show a few times. She’s wonderful.

Lorraine Lee
Oh, good.

Pete Mockaitis
With the multiple exposures, that makes all the difference in the world because if it’s a one-time thing, you mentioned, like, “Wow, Lorraine was really sharp today. That was cool. Huh, I guess she had a good night’s sleep.” It’s almost like, “That’s sort of a one-off. That’s an exception,” versus, “Oh, I guess that’s who you are now. Cool.”

Lorraine Lee
Yeah, exactly. Like, it just takes so many repetitions and, especially, again, like so many of us are hybrid, virtual, like we are just so distracted. There are so many different places now we can communicate, we can see each other, and so you have to just keep going, and you got to, like, find all the right channels, and make sure it’s repeated constantly.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, the P of EPIC is personality. So, Lorraine, are we supposed to change our personality? Isn’t that inauthentic and fake? What do we do in there?

Lorraine Lee
Definitely do not need to change your personality. So, the personality piece is, yes, your personality and the soft skills that make you who you are. So, for example, I’m introverted. I know Dorie is introverted as well. And I talk about introversion all the time on LinkedIn. Like, that’s part of my brand. And I want people to know that I’m introverted because me being introverted means that I work a little bit differently. I think a little bit differently than perhaps what you conventionally would expect to see in corporate America.

And so, having people know whether you’re a more serious person, whether you’re like the culture builder and you’re always bringing energy, like that also impacts, like, “You have a big project? Hmm, we need certain personality types to keep this all going, to keep this moving.” You want people to know who you are and within reason. Like, you’re still in a professional setting, but showing more of your true self can also help people connect with you, and then know more about what you bring to the table.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s just say that I have a personality that some might call quirky or eccentric or weird, to be less positive. If we find ourselves where that’s true, just the way we are is distinctive, but maybe not in an advantageous way, what are we to do with that?

Lorraine Lee
I think If you have a personality, and it’s like rubbing a bunch of people the wrong way, and maybe it’s like something about the way you’re communicating, that might be worth revisiting. Like, what is going on? But if you have a quirky personality, a “weird” personality, I hope that you find a place that values those things because we don’t want to work with people who are all exactly the same as us. That’s not going to lead to better business results. And I just feel like work is more boring that way, right, when everyone is the same.

And so, don’t try to change your personality to fit everyone else. But if your personality, there’s something about it where you’re like constantly getting negative feedback or things are coming across a certain way, it isn’t helping your career, then I think maybe you probe a little bit deeper, try to understand how others might be perceiving you. It might not be your intention.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. That’s well said. Like, there could be just a couple things, like, “When you say words like awesome and cool beans, that doesn’t feel professional enough for our executive-level attorney clients.” And so, it’s like, “Oh, well, that’s easy. No problem. That’s a quick tweak there,” versus like, “The way you are.”

Lorraine Lee
You’re being.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, “The way you speak and be, seems like it would vibe more with a writing room of a comedy TV series than in a super buttoned-up professional services environment.”

Lorraine Lee
We all have different sides of our personality. So, like I have a more professional side of me that’s different than how I am with my friends, which is different than how I am with my family, and so that’s okay. Like, you can still be bringing different parts of your authentic self to those different situations, but, you know, sometimes it might require some tweaking or just adjusting some things just based on the context and setting that you’re in, like you said.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, speaking of letters standing for things, how’s that for a segue? You mentioned the UPI, a unique and powerful introduction. Tell us, what is this? Why is it important? And then I want lots of demonstrations.

Lorraine Lee
Sure. The UPI, I came up with this concept because I felt like, in a lot of meetings that I was in, a lot of networking events that I would go to, the introduction felt like such a throwaway moment for a lot of people. They would either just kind of rush off, you know, mention their job title, their company, or like, “Oh, I’ve been at the company for three years,” but that didn’t really tell me much.

And you don’t have to be speaking for, like, five minutes and having a super long-winded introduction, but adding just a little bit something extra, I feel like goes such a long way in others better understanding the value you offer, who you are, more of your personality. You come across as more authoritative, depending on what information you’re going to include.

And so, I started experimenting with this myself when I was at Prezi. So, I used to say something along the lines of, “Oh, I lead the editorial team at Prezi.” Well, okay, to me, I know what that means, but to someone who’s never worked with an editorial team before, like, “What the heck do you do?” So, then I changed it to, “I lead the editorial team, which means that I collaborate with a lot of business leaders such as yourself. I help them create educational content through Prezi. And then we distribute that to help inspire our millions of users.”

And so, with that, you now understand what I actually do. You understand some context, like, “Wow, you have hundreds of millions of users. Like, that’s a very powerful thing and an impressive thing,” so there’s like a little bit credibility there. And now you’ve learned a little bit more about me. And so, there’s a lot of different ways that you can approach that.

But I wanted people to, again, like intentionality is a key theme, but to be more intentional, to think, “Okay, every moment that we have with someone is a chance to leave an impression, to create unforgettable presence.” And we’re meeting new people all the time, right, new colleagues, clients, partners, like whoever it is. And so, that’s what the UPI was built for; unique and powerful introduction to remind people to think a little bit more about this important moment.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m thinking back to occasions in which, you know, a project team is assembled from across different departments, and so folks are meeting each other for the first time, like a kickoff meeting, and so everyone goes around and they say a little bit about, you know, who they are. And it’s funny, I remember, I always found that very boring.

So, when you say that, “Hey, here’s an opportunity to be unforgettable,” I’m thinking, “Well, wow, we’re really raising the bar here associated with what is a common practice.” So, part of it is just defining terms. So, I know with that, “What does editorial team mean?” Okay, I can really visualize that in terms of what that look, sounds, feels like in your daily practice. Are there any other particular principles or pointers that you would suggest when sharing your unique and powerful introduction?

Lorraine Lee
There’s definitely an opportunity to use more of, like, a mission or vision statement for yourself. So not just job title. But, for example, like when I meet people now, like I might say something like, “Oh, I’m super passionate about helping rising leaders and ambitious professionals go from overlooked to unforgettable.”

So, I’m sort of, I’m stating the problem I solve. I’m not even mentioning my job title. And someone might say, “Oh, like how interesting. Tell me more. Like, how do you do that?” “Well, I speak, I teach, etc.” So, it gives you kind of an opening there. There’s also an opportunity to mention something personal about yourself.

So, I’ve definitely been on calls where someone’s sharing their title, the company, “Oh, and I have three dogs and in my spare time, I really love to bake.” “Oh, great. Okay. Some personal information. Now I kind of get to know you a little bit more on a less surface level and maybe we have a hobby in common that I just learned about, or at least I can, you know, turn to you, ask you for more about that later.”

So, there’s a lot of different ways that you can approach it. There’s no sort of cookie-cutter template to use. And I think that’s the beauty of it is that you might have one UPI for a networking event, you might have a different UPI in a team meeting, and you might have a different UPI on a client call.

Pete Mockaitis
And what you just did there is it sounds like you have thoughtfully crafted and practiced, or at least experienced saying it many times, what you just said there, as opposed to, “Hey, so tell me about yourself, or what do you do?” Like, this doesn’t just pop into your head and out of your mouth impromptu willy-nilly.

Lorraine Lee
Think about where you are, what would make sense given the people who are there. Practice, like you said, because sometimes when it’s, you know, you’re not just saying your name and the company you work for, it’s a little bit.

Unusual, so it might take a little bit practice. And then you can also, again, like leverage your manager, your friends, your family, like, “Hey, here’s how I’m planning on introducing myself. What do you think?” So, again, like I’m so big on feedback. And so, if you’re not really sure like, “Oh, is this too long? Is this the right information to include?” bounce the ideas around.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, can we have some more demonstrations?

Lorraine Lee
Okay. So, one might be, like, I’m on the engineering team, and I work on, or so some people might say like, “Oh, I’m an engineer,” at whatever company you work at. Okay, well, there’s lots of engineers who work on a lot of different products. So, “I’m an engineer working on the homepage,” is already more information, right? And, “You can turn to me anytime you have a feature request or you see a bug, like, I’m the person to go to.”

“Okay, great. Now I know what to go to you for. And now I also,” again, like that added credibility, “Like, you’re not just like any engineer at the company. You are working on this. You are the lead of the project,” for example. So that might be one.

But there are other folks, too, who are like, instead of just saying like, “I’m in customer service,” “I make sure that our customers remain satisfied, and I cut down whatever complaints by like 20%,” whatever it is. You can add a metric in there, for example. But explaining what you do without saying the exact title, I think, is another nice approach, where it’s just a little bit more conversational as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it seems like some of the ingredients here are, it’s not just title or department. We have the specificity necessary to be able to really visualize what’s up, what’s going on. You might throw in a result. You might throw in what you’re personally passionate about. There might be a metaphor.

Any thoughts for how short is too short and how long is too long?

Lorraine Lee
I would say a few sentences is good, no more than a few sentences. I think you don’t want to, you can kind of feel it, right, if you’re just like still talking, and you’re like, “I’ve been kind of explaining about what I do for a while.” Like, you want to have some back and forth. So, you want to just give them enough where you create some intrigue, and then that creates some conversation. Like, they want to ask, “Oh, tell me more,” or, “Oh, that’s super helpful to know. Like, here’s what I do.”

And so, I think, again, like depending on the context, I think networking events, you can be a little bit more mysterious or kind of present the problem that you solve. It’s a little bit different maybe at a company where you might want to just describe more what exactly it is that you do on a daily basis. But, yeah, I think, you know, trust your gut.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. But, yeah, and that’s how you learn whether or not it’s resonant or off-putting, and how you have different versions for different audiences, so that’s really handy. Can you tell us, in the world of a virtual presence, are there any top do’s or don’ts you’d highlight for folks?

Lorraine Lee
Yes, so many. I will start off talking about the TEA method. So that stands for tech energy and aesthetics. You can tell, Pete, I like a lot of acronyms. So, TEA stands for tech, energy, and aesthetics, and those are the three things that you need to think about before you jump on a call. And I came up with that because I feel like virtual presence, video presence, can sometimes feel very overwhelming.

Like, there’s a lot of things you can do and there’s a lot of things we see, like we see like podcasters with fancy backgrounds and mood lighting and all this and that, but we don’t really need that in order to make an impression, to stand out, to create a strong presence. And so, with tech, you’re going to want a good microphone, a good webcam, maybe some software to help enhance the sound, whatever it is.

Energy, you’re going to want to make sure that you are having energy on the call, communicating in such a way that allows you to develop and build relationships. And then aesthetics, you want to make sure that you look good on camera, too. And so that includes things like your framing, your lighting, and going back to energy, like body language is also an important one, I forgot to mention.

But there’s a lot of different things that go into those categories, but focus on those three, get the basics down and you will be off to a really good start, better than most people. Even after all these years remote, you would think everyone has it figured out, but that’s not the case.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are nice. And maybe if we could hear perhaps a couple of sub-bullets there. With regard to tech, any do’s or don’ts? Like, you see all the time, like, is the lighting bad? Or is microphone troubling? Or what would you zoom in on as some very common things that need corrected?

Lorraine Lee
Sure. The first one, I would say, if you have to get anything new that you don’t already have, microphone is probably the most important because if someone has bad video, if you can hear them, you can still be engaged. If you can’t hear them and someone just, it’s just chopping in and out, I’m sure we’ve all been on those calls, it’s so frustrating. You’re like, “I can’t, I’m sorry. We have to reschedule this.”

So having a microphone because our microphones in our laptops are not great. That’s key. And then I think, with your webcam, or having a webcam in the first place, I think is also really important because I still see this. A lot of people will have their monitor here and their laptop camera here, and so they’re looking at their monitor and they’re not making eye contact. And eye contact is a key part to aesthetics, making sure we look good and also energy, too, making sure we’re connecting.

And so, that’s another one that I see a lot of that people are sort of defaulting to the monitor, but they don’t have a camera there. And it’s just not a very good experience for the person on the other side. It’s really hard to stay connected that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you there. And, well, I’ll restrain myself from just rattling off tons of things because I love this. But, if I may, I’ve got a fun little tidbit called Elgato Prompter, which means that I am able to look at you and the camera at the same time, which is so fun for me and people. They’re like, “It looks like you’re looking right at me. How is that even possible?” So, that’s just really fun.

And then with regard to the choppiness, that’s usually a matter of internet reliability, connectivity, bandwidth. And talk about assumptions, I assumed everybody in the world use Speedtest.net on a daily basis. They don’t. So, that’s just a PSA there.

You’ve got a tip for how to avoid a “resting business face” on calls. First of all, what is this phenomenon of resting business face? Why do I want to avoid it? And how do I do so?

Lorraine Lee
So, RBF is a play on the other RBF. And, basically, when we’re on video, I mean, most of us are at home or in some sort of relaxed environment. And it’s so easy to forget what our expression looks like when we are passive listening to someone else. And so many of us do, because we’re relaxed, right? We’re just like kind of at home, just leaning back in our chair, like furrowing our eyebrows, or whatever it is that we’re doing.

And even if you have, yeah, like, a neutral expression on your face, like we want to look like we’re engaged. We don’t want to look like we’re not wanting to be there. And so, to be aware of your facial expressions is key. And so, I know it’s super obvious advice, but it goes a long way. Smiling, you know, get on a call, smile, look like you’re happy to be there with the person. Look like you’re engaged and wanting to chat. Like, small things like that go a long way.

And then adding your body language, your hand gestures, things like that like it’s going to feel, make it feel more like an in-person conversation. It’s going to be easier for all of us to stay engaged. And then also, break free from the RBF, because I feel like the RBF happens when we’re relaxed and just not really thinking about how we’re coming across.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. And I had a tip from a high school teacher, and he said, “You know how you can instantly look 10 IQ points smarter? Close your mouth.” So, your resting face might very well be a little bit mouth open just cause maybe they’re walking through a document, and you are kind of reading it, too. So, like close your mouth. And it does take some extra energy and attention, which can be hard to sustain all day long. So maybe pick and choose your battles.

Lorraine Lee
Yeah, pick and choose. And then I think turning off self-view helps a lot. That’s when you keep it on, it’s just like a mirror up to your face all day. That’s where video fatigue comes from. It’s just, like, I’m looking at myself. I’m examining myself, “You know, Pete says something funny,” I’m like, “Ooh, looking at myself. How do I look when I laugh?” Like, just making all these observations, it’s exhausting.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. I’m reminded of, tell me what you think about this. I’ve had times in my life where a friend is speaking or presenting, and I just know that they’re nervous. And so, I’m thinking, “I’m going to try to be, with my face and body, the most kind, friendly, loving, supportive audience member in the world that I would love to have in my audience, and do that for them.”

And it takes some real energy, but it does, it feels, it feels good. Like, I’m putting some love out into the world. And I got to imagine, over hundreds of meetings, this practice will go leaps and bounds towards boosting your likeability.

Lorraine Lee
Oh, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
“Whenever I’m talking, this guy seems into it. I like that.”

Lorraine Lee
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, me as a presenter, whenever I see that in person, virtually, I’m just like, “Thank you. Like, so kind. It helps me, gives me a boost of confidence.” It’s like, “Okay, I know you’re with me.” Like you said, just that one person who’s smiling at you makes a huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, any other top things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Lorraine Lee
Well, I’ll touch on the lighting and the aesthetics, the A. Lighting, super easy to fix. A lot of people don’t do it for whatever reason. So, adding an extra light in your space, I think, goes a long way. You look younger, fresher, brighter, like all these good things. And, yeah, it doesn’t take much. So, we don’t want witness protection program vibes. Like, we don’t want the light behind us. That’s a big no-no. And a lot of people still have, like, the windows behind them, that makes them look backlit. So, avoid that if you can.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m all about flipping it so the windows are illuminating the face. And you get to look outside, which just feels good.

Lorraine Lee
Yeah, that’s the best. That’s the best.

Pete Mockaitis
So, when you say grab a light so that we can orient towards the window, that’s great. I’m shilling for Elgato today, but I’ve got the Elgato Key Lights, which I think are snazzy. But is it just like any lamp will do? Or what do you mean by grab a light?

Lorraine Lee
I would say it depends on how much light you need. You can start off with a ring light, 12 inches to 16 inches in diameter so you get enough light. Some people with glasses, I know like the ring light shows in that, so maybe a Softbox makes more sense. I’m in a den right now with, unfortunately, no natural light so I actually ended up buying LED lights because those were extra powerful. So, those have been good.

Whatever light you buy, remember to get lights with different temperature settings because sometimes light might creep in from the side, maybe it’s the makeup I have, the clothes I’m wearing, the color just changes a little bit. So, when you can have those different settings, you can adjust and just have more control over how you appear.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Lorraine Lee
One phrase that I have really operated by during my career that really resonated with me the first time I heard it was to, “Over prepare, but don’t over plan.”

So, it’s good to have a general sense of where you want to go, but really what’s more important is to prepare for whatever’s going to come your way. So, make sure that you’re networking consistently, make sure that you are building up your skills and, yeah, all that stuff is very important.

And then stay open because, when you are too rigid about what you want for your future, it can really close you off to new and exciting things. And so over prepare, but don’t over plan.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Lorraine Lee
Okay, I will reference the famous Xerox study, and I also talk about this in my book. It was very interesting. It showed how powerful the word because is, and how much it can influence people’s actions. And they did this study where a few people were waiting in line, and someone asked, “Can I skip the line? Can I make a copy?” And not that many people, I don’t remember the exact percentage, not that many people let that person skip.

But then when that person says, “Oh, I want to make a few copies because…” you know, whatever the reason is, almost 100% of people let them skip the line. And then they did it again, and they said, “Oh, I want to skip the line because I have to make copies,” which is like, you know, that’s not like a really compelling reason. Like, that’s what they’re all in line for, but still almost 100% of people still let that person skip the line.

So, I think when you think about communication and impactful communication, finding things like that, like even just like the addition of that word, an addition of a reason, if you’re trying to get buy-in or trying to get people to take an action, or to let you take an action, little things like that can go a long way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And a favorite book?

Lorraine Lee
All right, fiction series, Harry Potter. And then non-fiction series or non-fiction books, I really like the book by my mentor, Matt Abrams, Stanford GSB professor, Think Faster, Talk Smarter.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Lorraine Lee
I use a lot. I will say going back to the TEA method because we didn’t exactly talk too much about software, I use a software called Krisp, K-R-I-S-P. It helps me eliminate all random sounds that aren’t my voice.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Lorraine Lee
I stretch each night before I wind down to watch TV before sleeping.

Pete Mockaitis
And tell me what benefits does this stretching yield in your life?

Lorraine Lee
I feel better that I’m taking care of myself, and I think it’s good. It’s so hard when we’re just go, go, go to really focus on you, and just the stretch for a few minutes and just have that quiet time for yourself. I feel like that helps me just regroup and like just wind down from the day, you know. It can be easy to just stay like in this heightened go, go, go state, but I think it helps with just calming down, having a good night’s sleep. That’s important.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share, a Lorraine original sound bite, that folks tend to quote to you often?

Lorraine Lee
A lot of people talk about the EPIC career brand. I think they’ve been very excited about that framework from the book. And I think, also, I talk a lot about how introverts have superpowers, and I think a lot of people like to reference that as well.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Lorraine Lee
Definitely, connect with me on LinkedIn, Lorraine K. Lee. And then you can also learn more about my book at UnforgettablePresenceBook.com. And then I have a free newsletter, Career Bites, bite-sized tips to supercharge your career in three minutes or less. You can find that at LorraineKLee.com/subscribe.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Lorraine Lee
Get your virtual set up in order for your virtual interviews. I think it will go a long way in helping you feel more confident and look more professional on camera.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lorraine, thank you.

Lorraine Lee
Thank you so much.

Feb 17
0

1033: How to Build Your Social Confidence with Susan Callender

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Susan Callender reveals the critical mindset shifts that lead to greater charisma and confidence.

You’ll Learn

  1. Six steps for overcoming shyness 
  2. How to quickly curb nervousness and anxiety 
  3. The small shifts that improve your professional presence 

About Susan 

Susan Callender is a success coach and founder of Social Confidence Pro, where she runs The School of Social Mastery. She helps sharp, high-achieving yet socially reluctant professionals polish their people skills and step into the spotlight. Through her school and coaching, she helps chronic overthinkers create a bigger impact and add more value to the careers they love. Susan shares her expertise as host of the Social Skills Mastery podcast, transforming clients from Boston to Bangkok and beyond.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Susan Callender Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Susan, welcome!

Susan Callender
Pete, I am so happy to be on your show. Thank you so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, we’re happy to have you. We’re talking social confidence. That’s a hot topic listeners care a lot about, and you are the social confidence pro, so it’s like we’re a match made in heaven.

Susan Callender
I am. I love what I do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I want to hear the tale of how you were going to be on CNN and then you just walked off the set. What’s going on here?

Susan Callender
Well, I identified as a shy person, and, momentarily, for that interview, which happened during the Democratic National Convention back in 2004, I thought that I could get over shyness for a few minutes for an interview.

And so, I walked in blindly to the interview. They were putting on my mic, fixing my hair, the reporter’s talking to me, and my mind is spinning and racing, and then they went, “Five, four, three…” and I pulled off the microphone, and I said, “I cannot do this. I’m so sorry. I’m so embarrassed. I should have never done this in the first place,” and I walked off the set.

And the most surprising thing, Peter, is that was an embarrassing moment, but it was not even my worst embarrassing moment. I am so glad to be where I am today and holding out my hand and bringing along other people, other professionals, other business owners that find themselves in that situation. There’s hope for you. There was for me, there is for you, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh yes, I like that a lot. Not that you experienced a deeply painful situation, but that you use your pain to help others, as well as this notion, I think sometimes people think, “Oh, you know, charismatic folks who are just great on camera or great on stage or great at speaking, they’re just kind of born that way. That’s sort of their personality.” But here you are with an experience that says just the opposite. You’ve experienced a personal transformation here.

Susan Callender
I did. What I realized, and that was one of the catalysts for my doing what I do now, and that was realizing that, “Oh, I call myself shy. I call myself an introvert. Who first called me shy? Oh, it was my mom protecting me, letting people know, ‘Oh, it’s okay, she’s hiding behind me, she’s shy.’” And then as I grew up, when I was in school or in a play, when people saw me being very hesitant, I could then express, when I was eight or nine years old, “I’m shy. I just can’t do it.“

But then this is what happens. One day you’re in college, and then one day you’re 35 and you’re still shy, but now people aren’t relating to it anymore because you’re a professional. They expect you to show up and speak up and add value and do your thing, and that’s where it becomes really difficult. And that’s why I do what I do.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you there in terms of, at some point, the expectations get upgraded and you got to upgrade with them.

Susan Callender
You do, and that’s where I realized, Pete, that it’s not so much the label. It’s the identity. So, you can give a person conversation starters, that’s the most popular thing that I do. People want to know what to say, “What do I say?” I’ll have people line up after a conference, or in a conference room at an office where I’m doing a presentation, and all the quiet people will say, “But what do I say? How do I start a conversation? What should I say to that person?”

But it’s not the words. It’s who you are being. So, I can give you the most interesting conversation starters, but if you still identify as an introvert who really hates small talk, you are still going to be an introvert who hates small talk who happened to have a conversation for one minute. You’ll revert back to who you believe you are. So, what I help people do is to create a new social identity where they can truly fully express themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s intriguing and cool, and I’ve heard that that’s a powerful tool for folks trying to make any sort of transformation, like, “I am not going to try to work out but who I am is a runner or a fit person or a triathlete or whatever,” like adopting that identity can really move people to do things differently and to perform better. So, that sounds pretty handy. But, Susan, how is it done?

Susan Callender
Well, it’s done by really priming your brain. So, what I’ve created is a social priming system, and the social priming system is a type of mental rehearsal for social interactions. So, I use the acronym SOCIAL, and what I help people to do is just move through all of those different iterations of how we see things prior to doing them. I’ll give you an example, Pete.

You don’t get lost going to work, because you see it in your mind first. You see your route. But we think for some reason, because we see people performing with social ease, those outgoing people, the people who find it easy to make a conversation, we assume that they do it without practice. We see everything before we do it.

So, with social priming, S is, first, just to settle down. Calm down, take a few deep breaths, and really just find that place within yourself where you really want to do well. Let’s just set this up as a networking event. You’re attending a networking group for the first time. You won’t know anyone, but you know, for professional reasons, you really should be there.

Then O is for observe. Just really look at your current emotional state and just notice, “Do you have any anxiety? Do you have any resistance? Why do you have that anxiety?” That anxiety came from a thought that you have about the situation. What if you changed that thought to, “I’m really looking forward to meeting new people in my field.” It will change how you feel.

And then what we want to do is just create a specific social scenario. Imagine yourself walking into the venue. What’s the first thing you’re going to see at a networking event? Perhaps a name tag table. Visualize yourself walking up to that table. If there’s a person standing behind it, prior to saying, “My last name is…” or just looking for your name tag, visualize yourself, prime your brain to say, “I’m going to say hello to that person and tell them how glad I am to be here.”

When we go through steps like this, Pete, these things happen because we’re priming our brain for exactly what we want to happen. We do the same thing in presentations. And then we just want to immerse our brains in how we want to feel in that moment – confident. We want to have positive outcomes for this interaction.

And then we make it animated. That’s the A in social. Just play through the scene like you’re having conversations, like you’re going over to the bar to get a drink, like you’re going to stop by the hors d’oeuvres table and grab a cube of cheese or a little bit of hummus and pita, and you’re going to turn and find a single person or a person who was alone, and you’re going to walk over to them and mention something about the gathering.

Don’t walk over and say your name first. Because nobody will care who you are until they feel comfortable with you, then they’ll remember your name. And so, just start with something about the setting that you’re in, something about the event that you’re attending.

And then, finally, L in social is for just linking the great feeling that you have with this to any positive situation that you want to have. So, when you click that link, you will know that, “This is how I want to feel in social settings,” and that just seals the deal for you. Then you can do it again, and again, and again.

Pete Mockaitis
So, with the link, can you expand on that a little bit more?

Susan Callender
Well, it’s like an anchor. So, the anchor is, “I just did this. I was able to visualize what I wanted to happen. I was able to just settle my nervous system. I was able to calm that anxiety. I questioned where that anxiety was coming from. Why would I feel nervous? I am a very smart, driven person. I have the degrees, I have the skills, I have the credentials. These are my people. Why would I feel nervous? I’ve said words before. I have introduced myself before.”

Pete Mockaitis
I bet you have.

Susan Callender
“I can say words again. I know how to ask for a drink. I know how to introduce to people. All of these things.” When we take ourselves, Pete, out of ourselves and think about the other person, we are so much more calm.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really cool. With the link is not so much, I think we have a tendency to hurry on to the next thing, it’s like, “Well, let’s see if there’s anything interesting in my phone now,” as opposed to linking that experience to, I guess, a new identity there in terms of, “Yes, this happened. This is an experience that just unfolded,” and to sort of sit in it, steep in it, marinate in it, and let your brain link these connections.

Susan Callender
Celebrate the moment.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. And it’s funny, I’m zeroing in on the cheese cubes, one, because perhaps I’m already ready for lunch, and, two, it really does animate the A there, the scene in terms of when your senses, what can you see, what can you smell, what can you taste, and makes it all more real and grounded as oppose to the soft languages of ideas, idea things, like, “Oh, some people might not like me.”

It’s like, okay, that’s kind of fuzzy and broad and vague as opposed to a cheese cube, “It is orange. I can visualize it on a little white Dixie plate or whatever, a toothpick, and then I’m there and the mental rehearsal seems all the more genuine and powerful.

Susan Callender
It truly does. And that will help your listeners connect to whatever event they are attending, whether it’s taking place in the workplace, or if they have to go outside, or if they’re taking a client to lunch. Bob Proctor had a very popular quote, which was that, “If you could see it in your mind, you can hold it in your hand.”

It’s so true. We’ve gone through all these little iterations in different ways before, but rather than just having your mind go blank with fear, say, “I’ve done this before.” And then at the end, give yourself, when you get back in your car, a little, “Woohoo! So glad I did that. Yes! I knew I could do that.” That just reinforces that. That’s just another type of anchor. “Yes, I can do this again. I’m going to sign up for that other event that I see noted at the end of the month.”  That’s where that momentum comes from.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. I dig that a lot. Let’s talk about the observe the why. I can get into a trap emotionally with why, as I feel a thing and then I say why. And, sure enough, I’m able to generate so many reasons why I feel that, and then I’m almost, like, finding an argument or justification and support for the very thing that I would prefer not to be feeling. Can you give us some distinctions and pro tips on how to do the observe step optimally?

Susan Callender
We all have some resistance in us for whatever reason, “Well, I don’t want to go. I’d rather go to the gym,” “I’d rather go home and walk my dog,” “I’d rather just scroll Instagram,” or do whatever it is that we do these days because we’re so accustomed to being alone. It’s so easy to be alone. Why do we do this?

We do this because we are professionals. We do this because we’ve put in that time and we want to be known for what we know. And the more we stay alone, the more we work hybrid or work from home or do not have all the opportunities that we used to take advantage of, to get to know people, to be seen and to be heard and to be understood for all of the value that you have to offer, well, just take a look at that and observe who you’re being.

Do you want to manage your professional image, or do you want others to manage it for you? Others managing it for you might mean, “Oh, she doesn’t really talk to anyone,” or, “She’s probably not going to show up,” or, “I don’t think that I’m going to ask her because she’ll probably say no, and we really need panelists for next week, so I’m going to go to somebody who I have a feeling will say yes.” And all it takes from you is, “Uh, yes, sure, I can do it,” because you know you can.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s how we do the identity piece. I’m curious, with regard to the settle down, any pro tips on doing that well?

Susan Callender
What we should take more time for is deep breathing. At any point in your day, when you feel just even a pang of nervousness or anxiety, just stop and take four to six just deep breaths in your nose, slowly out your mouth. It is incredibly calming. And in those moments, your brain will have clarity. Clarity that it could not have, that was not possible when your mind was racing.

You are in control. Do not think that some outside factor is in control of you. And once you realize that, it’s so empowering. It stops the limiting beliefs in their tracks, and increases the empowering beliefs that you have the capability to do anything that you want to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, deep breathing. Any particulars on how one breathes deeply to be most effective?

Susan Callender
I practice something with my clients that is called box breathing. And in that, you close your eyes and just picture a cube. And you can, let’s say that we’re going from the bottom to the top on the left-hand side, and I might say to them, “Let’s breathe in with a four count, going from the bottom left to the top left. And then do a six count, blowing out through your mouth going across the top of the cube. And then a four count, going down the right-hand side of the cube. And then a six count, exhaling through your mouth, going across.”

And even if we’re doing it like at the end of their workday, it just helps them to separate from anything else that’s been going on, or if it’s at the start of their day, or at their lunchtime. It helps you to create space between what you thought was so unbearable, or stressful, or somebody needling you, or somebody not allowing you to, or in your mind, to not show up as your best because you’re so focused on them.

And it just helps you to separate from that and realize that you are your own entity, your own being. And then we can begin. Then we can have a great session. And I can do that either whether it’s one-to-one or in a group. We’re all the same in that way. We like to think that we’re different but we’re not.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then when you’re in the midst of building your career and developing these skills, what are some practices you suggest for folks, day in day out?

Susan Callender
What I say often is that if you want to be a big deal, you have to act like you’re a big deal. You have value. You are valuable. People want you right now, without question. Somebody right now needs exactly what it is that you have. They’re looking for you. They’re waiting for you. You have to show up. There is no one who is better than you. They just do things differently. But you have your place and you have to claim it.

So, act like you belong and people will treat you like you belong. And then you’ll start to have fun, and then you’ll start to go out more, and then you’ll start to speak up in meetings more, because you realize that people do listen to you.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, tell me, any other top tips, do’s, don’ts?

Susan Callender
One would be just making sure that you are in control of your professional presence. And so, that means that you want to pay attention and be in the moment. Stop your mind from overthinking and racing ahead and wondering if you’re going to say the right thing, and just get present and pay attention, and don’t try to think of what you’re going to say. Respond to what’s being said to you. So just presence is so important.

And then your body language, being authoritative and approachable. And that could be as simple as just standing with your weight even on both feet, and then being mindful of your space. If you are speaking to one person, or a table full of people at a conference table, or a room full of people, make sure to connect.

So, with one person, eye contact. With a number of people at a conference table, make each word that you say, connect that with eye contact with each person at a table. If you are answering a person’s question, don’t just look at that person because everyone else will tune out unless you connect with them. So, use your space wisely. Make sure that people can hear you and that they know that you want to be heard.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Any final thoughts?

Susan Callender
What I know for sure, Pete, is that when you change or improve your social skills, whether it’s getting over social anxiety, nervousness, unnecessary worry, overthinking, everything in that realm, it changes your life forever. You can’t unlearn these skills.

And I know that these are not things that you’ve just been dealing with for the past few months or years. For the most part, it goes back to formative years, before the age of seven, middle school years, maybe early college, and then we think that it’s our life sentence, but it’s not. It can be changed.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Susan Callender
“You don’t have to be great to start. You just have to start to be great.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Susan Callender
Right now, I’m rereading something, and I do have a tendency to reread things that I love, and that is The Power of Your Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Susan Callender
I journal every day, every morning.

Pete Mockaitis
That kind of sounds like a favorite habit as well. Any others?

Susan Callender
I wake up and I just find ten things to be grateful for every morning, and that’s definitely the habit, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Susan Callender
Act like you belong and people will treat you like you belong.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Susan Callender
I would love for people to go to SocialConfidencePro.com/breakthrough, where I have a social identity shift breakthrough series that they will find very helpful to start speaking up and standing out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Susan Callender
Allow people to be seen, take the focus off of yourself and greet people. Make eye contact with them. Do not focus on your needs or your fear. Just make someone else’s day. And when you notice that look in their eye, that smile that they give you back, you will then see just how powerful you are.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Susan, beautiful. Thank you.

Susan Callender
You’re welcome, Pete. It was my pleasure to be here.

Jan 09
0

1022: How–and Why–to Stop Overapologizing with Shira Miller

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Shira Miller reveals the harmful effects of overapologizing—and shares powerful advice for owning your greatness.

You’ll Learn

  1. How overapologizing hurts you personally and professionally 
  2. Five steps to stop unnecessary apologies
  3. How to tame your inner saboteur

About Shira 

Shira Miller is an award-winning keynote speaker, Certified Executive Coach, author of Free and Clear: Get Unstuck and Live the Life You Want and works as the Chief Communications Officer of National DCP, the $3 billion supply chain company serving Dunkin’ franchisees. The two-time TEDx speaker, who delivered a talk called Stop the Apology Speak, has helped thousands of leaders instill optimism and purpose at work, stop making unnecessary apologies, eliminate self-sabotage and own their greatness. 

Resources Mentioned

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Shira Miller Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Shira, welcome.

Shira Miller
Hi, Pete. Glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m glad to be chatting with you. We’re talking apologies, and I’m excited to dig deep into this notion of apology speak. Could you kick us off by sharing your own apology story?

Shira Miller
Oh, boy, do I have one. I spent the first 40 years of my life in a constant state of apology. I’m talking about apologizing when I won speaking trophies, and for when I would win awards at work, and the men in my life maybe weren’t so excited about that. And the most significant apology story I have to share took place back in 2009.

I used to have a public relations firm, and from the outside it looked like we were doing so well. We were in a fancy office tower, I had big-name clients, we’ve won a lot of awards. And then, I remember, in May 2009, we had about four pieces of business out for bid, and none of them came back, and that was highly unusual.

What I didn’t realize at the time was that the Great Recession was coming through the country and that it was about to demolish my business along with 200,000 others across the country. So, I was caught unawares, I had $100,000 worth of business debt, I had to let go of wonderful employees, and I spent my time constantly apologizing.

I honestly knocked myself out for the next four years to take care of all the work, to get rid of the debt. I did it all by myself. I ran my health into the ground. And then, at the end, when I should’ve been celebrating because I survived, what did I do, Pete? I apologized. That’s what I did.

Pete Mockaitis
To whom?

Shira Miller
To the world. I kept telling people, “Gosh, I feel stupid. I can’t believe that I got myself in this situation.” Instead of standing proud to think, “I got through one of the biggest challenges of my life,” I put myself down, self-deprecating language, constantly said I was sorry to anyone that would listen.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, Shira, what’s the harm or problem in saying we’re sorry often? Isn’t that kind of a polite, friendly thing to do?

Shira Miller
You know, you would think that it is on the surface, and sometimes that is people’s intention with it, but when you apologize for no reason, you are telling the rest of the world, subconsciously, that you don’t matter. You are trying to maybe diffuse a tense situation, perhaps you don’t want to shine brightly and you dim your own light to make other people feel better about themselves, but it’s saying to the world and yourself that you are coming in second, and that your opinion and your ideas don’t matter.

And when it comes to work, if there are two people up for the same promotion, who do you think is going to get it? The woman who stands in front of a room and says, “I’m sorry” as the first words out of her mouth, or the person, the woman who stands there confidently, owning her accomplishments?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, maybe we can disentangle or distinguish a little bit what’s up. Because I imagine, from your perspective, and you tell me if that’s the case, it would be appropriate to apologize when we have genuinely injured another, made a mistake, failed to deliver on a promise or an expectation. These seem like fine times to apologize.

Shira Miller
Absolutely. The whole premise here is that when you’ve done something wrong, all of the examples you gave, if you’re thinking about the workplace, if you missed a deadline, you took credit for someone else’s ideas, you cast a shade on somebody else, you need to own that. That is worthy of an apology, and issue one.

But in those circumstances, when you’re using apology speak, which is my name for starting a sentence with “I’m sorry,” when you’ve done nothing wrong, or self-deprecating phrases, like, “In my humble opinion,” when you start out by saying that, or, “I’m not an expert but…” you’re literally telling the room, “Okay, I don’t know as much,” or, “My great ideas, they don’t matter.”

Pete Mockaitis
So, could you share with us perhaps any data, evidence, research, science studies that speak to, really, the big stakes impact, consequentiality, if that’s a word, of this stuff?

Shira Miller
So, if you dig into the why of why we’re doing it, I know your audience is primarily female so I’m going to go with that example, the University of Waterloo did a study, and they found that women apologize more than men. And to that I say, “Duh!” I mean, we all know this but Mila Jovanovic, who is a sociologist in Canada, she digs deeper into the theory of why we’re doing it.

And her theory is that women are socialized into being people-pleasers from a young age, and the apology speak is part of it, when we’re taught to say “I’m sorry” to go along or get along, or diffuse a tense situation. But if you dig deeper into the research, a lot of it stems from impostor syndrome. KPMG came out with a study a couple of years ago that found that 75% of female executives felt impostor syndrome.

And, as you know, that is a behavioral phenomenon where you might have tremendous accomplishments but you don’t feel good enough. You feel like you don’t deserve that seat at the table even if you spent the past 5, 10, 15 years working for it. And that can really undermine your confidence.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, over-apologizing, in some way, sounds as though it’s a bit of an indicator or a symptom of some underlying stuff, which might be low self-esteem, or a tendency to people-please, or put others’ thoughts, opinions, priorities, needs above your own habitually. And so, that’s kind of what I’m hearing. But, in addition to the indicator, it sounds like you’re saying that the actual act of over-apologizing does us harm.

Shira Miller
It is a form of self-sabotage. It hurts your career. It hurts your credibility. It hurts you at home as well. It’s hard to have really rich conversations about difficult topics with the people you’ve got relationships with if you’re feeling overwhelmed and you just start saying, “I’m sorry. I’m sorry,” to shut down a hard topic. You’re not really digging into what’s going on, and that hurts you professionally and personally.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, could you dig into that example a little bit more? There’s a conversation going on, and you say, “I’m sorry,” and bow out.

Shira Miller
Yes. Let’s say that you’re having an argument with your significant other. Maybe it’s about finances, about latest credit card spending, and when you are asked the question, “Why did you spend all of that money?” instead of thinking, “Okay, let’s talk. What’s going on? Is it a budget issue that I need to talk about with my significant other? Is there a problem? I’m earning my own money,” instead you just raise your hands in the air and you deflect it, and go, “I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Please forgive me.”

But you’re not actually dealing into, “Are you dealing with a control freak? Are you dealing with a spending problem you’ve got? Is it a lack of communication about your budget parameters?” You’re not going into the real stuff that helps us have good relationships at home as well as at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s one form of apologizing. It’s almost like we’ve got a taxonomy of apologies here…

Shira Miller
We do.

Pete Mockaitis
…is the avoidance apology, “I’m sorry.” Can you share with us some other flavors or categories and how they’re harmful?

Shira Miller
When you start apologizing for things that are out of your control. For example, “I’m sorry it’s raining,” “I’m sorry traffic is bad.” Unless you’re Mother Nature, you’re not controlling those factors. And when that’s the first thing out of your mouth, rather than acknowledging the person or what the subject is that you’re going to be meeting about, it takes away the focus of your interaction or the time.

Another work example is when you say, “I’m sorry to bother you,” because when you’re using that language, you are immediately setting up your conversation as an imposition. You’re saying that their time matters more than yours, whereas, you can shift the language to, instead, say, “Do you have a moment to talk about an important issue?” or, “Can I get your perspective on this project?” Those are words of ownership, and you deserve to have their time because it’s going to make everybody work smarter and better.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So, in a raining environment, I’m imagining of an event coordinator. We’re having a lovely picnic in the park event, and it’s raining, and that’s genuinely disappointing for all of us who imagined a different kind of a scenario.

So, it’s intriguing because in that context, if you’re the event planner of this, you are disappointed that things have not gone the way you had hoped, and you recognize that they, too, in the crowd, are disappointed. It has not gone your way.

But to apologize for the rain, you’re right, it’s sort of nonsense, as you’ve said, in terms of, like, you did not make it rain. And yet, here we are experiencing some disappointment due to rain. So, what would be a superior linguistic substitution?

Shira Miller
What you can start out with is acknowledging your audience, the people in the group, “Thank you for your patience. We’re dealing with a rain situation but you guys are so resilient that we’re easily going to be able to take everything, move inside, and get on with our meeting, and have the best time yet.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, it’s funny, as we’re talking about when it’s appropriate to apologize and not apologize, I’m sort of imagining the response following the “I’m sorry.” It’s as if the response “I forgive you” is nonsense, then maybe it’s probably not right to apologize in that moment, like, “I’m sorry it’s raining.” “Hey, I forgive you, Shira, for making it rain.” It’s like, “Oh, okay. Point taken. It doesn’t really make sense here.”

And that’s a whole other conversation but in terms of “I forgive you.” It’s funny, with my wife, I like to hear that. She does not like to hear that because it feels like, if I say, “I forgive you,” I’m acknowledging, “Yes, in fact, you have wronged me,” and she would prefer a “No big deal,” or, “That’s okay.” But I like “I forgive you” because I know I screwed up, and to hear that I’ve been released of any debt or burden or obligation or ill will associated with that error feels nice to me.

Shira Miller
And it sounds like you are very clear on your linguistic choices and hers in feeling acknowledged in a conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, it’s funny, now that we’re talking about romance, I recall, one time, I was driving home to visit my mom and dad, and I had my girlfriend at the time in the car. And so, I was driving, and she wanted to text them to let them know how the timing was unfolding. And it was really interesting in the moment because she’s texting on my phone because I’m not texting and driving, and so she’s writing on behalf of me.

And so, she said, “Okay, I’ll text them right now. I’m saying, ‘Oh, sorry, it looks like we’re going to get there in about 4:30.’” And I remember saying, “Hmm, can we delete the sorry?” And she’s like, “What? Why?” And we had a whole conversation. This is, like, the only time I’ve talked in depth about the apology language prior to now.

And I thought, “Well, I don’t think that we’ve actually done anything wrong in terms of we have not communicated a specific timing expectation. We didn’t make any unwise choices and it just feels out of place.” I wasn’t even thinking about harm. It just felt off to me intuitively.

Shira Miller
You’ve got a great intuitive meter because, yeah, when you start with a sorry and you’ve done nothing wrong, there was no established arrival time, then it might set it up for another apology when you show up, where you were bringing your girlfriend home. Your family was probably delighted to meet her, and it was a time for family togetherness and joy. There was no need for an apology.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. Well, tell us, if we do need to interrupt somebody, that’s one time I think of sorrys happening. It seems kind of appropriate to me to apologize for interrupting, even though the thing needs to be communicated immediately. What’s your hot take there?

Shira Miller
I think you can do that in a couple different ways and a lot of it depends on your tone. If someone is starting to go in detail then you know it needs to be corrected or added on. It can be, “Emily, I love your point. And can I please add one more thing to your message?” When you kind of pop in and you make it fun, acknowledging the person who’s speaking, that’s a way to do it.

Or, you could say, “Hey, pardon my interruption for just a second. I got to add something to your message right now,” or, “Here’s my clarifying point.” When you start it that way, as long as you don’t take away from the messages that are being communicated by the person who’s got the floor.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. I’m also thinking that if you’re apologizing frequently, that sends a message, maybe like in a negotiation context, and many contexts are really negotiation contexts under the surface, “I want something. You want something. And so, here we are in conversation.” Kwame Christian is a friend of mine. He hosts the podcast Negotiate Anything, and he’s wonderful. He’s a former guest.

And he said, “A negotiation is conversation which somebody wants something.” And so, I think in that definition, a person who apologizes frequently, I get the impression as a counterparty to that negotiation, and I try not to abuse this. I get the impression that if I’m a little bit more assertive, I’m likely to gain concessions because of their discomfort, because I know I’m a people-pleaser, too.

It’s like, “Oh, this person is kind of like me. So, if I let them know that I have an expectation or I’m a little bit unhappy with the thing,” which I am, honestly, I’m not, like, faking it to game the negotiation, “then I have a higher probability of receiving consideration from them,” as oppose to a stone-cold negotiator, like, “I don’t care if you don’t like it. This is what I can do.”

Shira Miller
Well, what you’re doing is recognizing an opportunity, because when someone starts with an apology speak, they don’t feel solid in their position. There’s some sort of weakness. They don’t feel confident. That’s what it’s saying. Even if they are the most brilliant person in the room, because of their language, they’re not coming across that way. So, when you’re talking about the example of a negotiation, you’re just being a smart negotiator spotting an opportunity that you will leverage to have a better deal.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And it’s funny, I was just in a negotiating conversation yesterday, I almost said I’m sorry. She asked, “What’s the price?” I said, “$12,000.00” She said, “Can you do 10?” And I said, “I respect and appreciate you asking but I cannot.”

Shira Miller
Beautiful. You had no sorry in it, right? You just said no.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it was almost there, though. It was close. Cool. Well, so tell us, you’ve got a system, five ways to break the cycle of unnecessary apologies. Lay them on us.

Shira Miller
Well, you are so brilliant. You already started going into this. So, the first step, Pete, is to determine if an apology is necessary, and sometimes it is. If you have actually done something wrong, we went through several examples earlier, issue a genuine apology. And I’m going to give you a non-work example here but it’s just a really public one that we all know of.

If you think about the Academy Awards, when Will Smith slapped Chris Rock, he needed to issue an apology, and he didn’t issue one right away to Chris Rock. He apologized to his family and the world but it took him a while. Now, Chris Rock didn’t accept the apology. That was his prerogative, he didn’t have to. But Smith absolutely had to apologize. He did something wrong.

But when you don’t, when you’ve done nothing wrong, reserve your apologies for when they actually matter. Because if you’re the constantly-saying-you’re-sorry person in your language, it diffuses it when you actually have done something wrong and need to make an apology. So, that is step one.

Step two is to pay attention, and this is a really quick homework assignment for anybody who’s listening that wants to immediately change a situation. Start writing down, it could be a hash mark, it could be the details. Every time you find yourself over the next three or four days making an unnecessary apology.

Like, let’s say that you’re at the grocery store, you’re minding your own business pushing your cart, someone else is playing on their phone, they’re not paying attention, they run into you and your cart, and you look at them, and go, “Oh, hey, I’m sorry.” You didn’t do anything wrong. So, just note all of that and look at the end, three or four days, if you’re trying to be real A student, do it for a week to really find out, and then start tallying it up.

If you’ve done it a couple times, that’s one thing. Maybe it’s in the dozens, this is a real problem. So, start to find the connection points. Is there a common denominator? Is there a director at work who’s really difficult and he prompts that situation whenever you’re in a meeting? Or maybe it’s your mother-in-law. I’m not even trying to go to vaudeville jokes here, but it might be a frenemy.

It could be somebody like that. You find yourself constantly apologizing when you’re with that person, they’re the trigger. And when you understand it by paying attention, you can plan ahead not to apologize and choose other words instead.

Shira Miller
The third step is to reframe your words. So, think about what you’re actually trying to communicate with an apology. Often, the intention is to connect with another person. Maybe you’re trying to express sympathy or empathy. Make the sentiment the focus of your words. So, let’s say you’re running late for a meeting.

Instead of running in the room, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry. I was late,” and constantly talking about it and why and the parking garage was a mess, just focus on “Thank you for your patience. I’m so excited to dig into this presentation today,” and then get into the meeting. You’ve acknowledged the people for their graciousness, and then you move on. So, it’s a point of connection, and reframing your words to actually fit the sentiment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Shira, if I can pause there for a moment.

Shira Miller
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, in that context, it seems like it may very well be appropriate that as a person who is late, you have, indeed, I don’t want to be dramatic, but you have harmed people. You have harmed people by your tardiness, and I mean, it’s not life or death, but, yeah, it is an inconvenience, a distraction of time has unfolded as a result of your tardiness.

And so, “I’m sorry” doesn’t seem out of place to me. Now going on about the parking garage, of course, burns more time, which is so that’s worse than make it snappy. But what’s your take on that one?

Shira Miller
I think that’s a great question, Pete. If you are really late, if you’re 15, 20 minutes late, yeah, you need to apologize. I’m talking if you’re a couple of minutes late – the elevator was slow, the parking garage was a problem. If you’re one or two minutes late, okay. If you do know, though, this is knowing your audience, let’s say that you’re talking to some prospective clients, and time management is really big on their list of priorities, yeah, you do go into that and say, “I’m sorry I was a couple of minutes late. I appreciate your flexibility and your patience. Let’s get right into this.” That’s knowing your audience.

But it’s the dramatic, “Oh, my gosh, I was late, and here’s why. And my kid was sick this morning and traffic was horrible.” People don’t want that verbal vomit with the sorry.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Next step?

Shira Miller
Next step is something I call claiming your accomplishments. And so, think about one thing that you were great at. So, before you start your day each morning, take a minute to think about your one good thing, and how that quality or skill makes you feel.

Does it make you feel happy? Proud? I want you to say it out loud and express your gratitude. Because when you start your day by thinking about your best quality or skill, that helps you unlock your full potential. It helps with the feelings of impostor syndrome, the feeling you’re not good enough, and it strengthens your confidence muscles so that you’re not delving into the state of over-apologizing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Shira Miller
Final step there is to set boundaries, and start from a place of confidence. Think about the good work that you do and the value that you offer. You don’t need to over-prove yourself all of the time. Say no when it’s a project that you simply don’t have time to handle. It’s all in the delivery. If it’s an opportunity that you’re not interested in, when you say no to others, you can say yes to yourself more often. So, setting boundaries will also help you stop over-apologizing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. And can we dig into a little bit of, I suppose, the underlying foundational psychological thing in terms of if we really do view ourselves as less than, inferior, dumb, not worthy of whatever, we’re impostors, do you have any…you mentioned claiming your accomplishments, which is phenomenal. Can we expand upon approaches by which we develop this inner strength and confidence?

Shira Miller
I’ve got two things for you here. So, the first is a lot of the self-doubt comes from your inner saboteur, and that is the internal voice in your head that is talking trash about you to yourself, so it’s negative self-talk. And it might’ve started years ago when you were trying to protect yourself, “Oh, don’t get on that slide. You might get hurt,” when you were a kid, or, “Don’t raise your hand in class. You might sound stupid.” So, it might’ve started young. But when you’re doing it as a conscious adult, it’s holding you back.

So, when you start to hear that critical voice in your head, and part of you knows that it’s completely off base but it’s just an old habit, that’s what a negative self-talk is, just like apology speak, you can actually talk back to the self-talk. You can say, whether it’s an out-loud conversation, as long as there aren’t a lot of people around thinking that you’re going off into a crazy spiral, but you could say, “Thank you but I’m done now. I don’t need that protection. What you’re saying, I’ve outgrown it. It’s actually incorrect.”

You could write yourself a letter. You could journal about it. That is a tool to try to deal with negative self-talk. Another tool that I’ve created is something called a reverse bucket list. And you know the concept of a bucket list, things you want to do, aspirations, before you die, before you kick the bucket. In this case, I ask people to take 10 minutes and write down a list of everything you’ve accomplished, and I want as many things as you can think of.

Did you put yourself through college? Did you end a cycle of family addiction? Did you get promoted in your first job after two years? Are you the first female director in your organization? Everything. List it. And then once you take the time to write that down in 10 minutes, go back and read it because what you’ve done is created evidence, proof of your capabilities, of your resilience, and you can take that list out, that reverse bucket list anytime you’re not feeling confident. It’s an instant trick that will help build your confidence.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, Shira, I did, in fact, create a list like this in college. I was being rejected for a lot of things, and I was sad. And it was very helpful because self-doubt really did creep in, I was like, “Oh, maybe I’m really not that smart or capable, in general. Geez, everyone keeps rejecting me for these cool opportunities and things I’m applying for.”

And so, I made a big old list, and I referred to it, and it was quite handy. I went to it often. But now I’m thinking back to a conversation we had with Victor Cheng in episode 500 about developing unshakeable self-confidence. I’m curious about our underlying foundation, and we’re getting real philosophical here, Shira.

Shira Miller
Love it.

Pete Mockaitis
In terms of it’s not ideal to pin our sense of value and worth to accomplishments, although it can be handy in a particular context if you think, “I’m no good at this,” like, “Hey, here’s the evidence. You’re pretty good at this.” But even at a deeper level in terms of, like, your general sense of goodness, worthiness, capability, do you have any thoughts on that?

Shira Miller
Yes, and I think that’s a very powerful message. The tool I just talked about is great if you’re not feeling confident in a work situation, or, honestly, a personal situation. You can just change the attitude, the mood, the mentality but you really do need to go deeper. The most important relationship that you have in this world is with yourself. And you need to have an innate self of your worth. You need to be able to trust yourself, and it’s deeper.

And so, I’ve done a lot of work on that over the years through journaling, therapy. Some people work with a professional coach such as yourself. Those are some wonderful ways in which you can build stronger, deeper, unshakeable confidence that will bolster you no matter what you face in your life. It is a deeper journey on the long term.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, this is a lot of cool stuff, Shira. Could you tell us a fun story of someone who stopped their over-apologizing ways and what kind of impact that made for them?

Shira Miller
So, the first person coming to my mind is a friend who was a partner in a $500 million consulting company. Very successful. She was raised in a hard situation, grew up in a double-wide trailer in Alabama, her parents constantly put her down, so she felt like she always had something to over-prove, and didn’t feel like she deserved a seat at the table, ended up putting herself through to good schools, worked for some of the biggest companies in the country, but she always found herself apologizing.

And even as recently as about a year ago, and, again, she’s a partner, she’s a board member at this $500 million company, when the CEO was talking to her one day about a co-worker who wasn’t performing, what did she say? “I’m sorry.” She kept apologizing because a co-worker wasn’t performing. She did nothing wrong. The CEO was consulting with her to try to get a solution, and that was her first indication, “Oh, I really have a problem.”

And so, when she realized this, we started talking about it. She knew that I could offer her some tips, and she started the exercise I said about actually writing it down when you’re doing it. Her name is Cindy. I know she’s not going to care if I use her name. Cindy wrote it down and realized that the list was pretty high, especially for somebody who has such tremendous accomplishments.

So, for her, it was gaining the awareness. And whenever she found herself in conversations that would normally trigger it or with people, she came in there armed and ready to stand more in her power than apologizing for somebody else not delivering work or a situation she had no control over.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then what happened?

Shira Miller
Oh, gosh, I’ll tell you what. It did great for her well-being. She finds herself just really, and this is a woman who is in her 50s, so you can change this at any time in your career. I just want to be really clear about that. It decreased her stress at work.

She realized, “The whole problems of this company and the world are not on my own shoulders. I don’t need to take that on. I don’t need to say ‘I’m sorry for that.’ I can listen. I can be empathetic to it, but, really, people want me to talk more about positive solutions, and I’ll take ownership of a problem that’s not mine.” So, it’s greater well-being and less stress.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic. Well, Shira, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Shira Miller
I just want you to know that you can stop over-apologizing at any time. I did. When I was about 46 years old, there were a whole bunch of circumstances that happened that just made me realize, “I’m done with this BS. I’m not going to sit there and apologize for things when I did nothing wrong anymore.” And it was such a sense of empowerment and ownership, and you can start immediately.

You can practice. Go into one situation that you know, that normally triggers over-apologizing, and don’t do it, and see what happens. See what happens in the room with everybody else, and see how you feel about yourself. It’s going to be a big confidence boost and I bet that it’s going to help you own your greatness even more at work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Shira Miller
So, this is from Albert Einstein, and he said, “Never give up on what you really want to do. The person with big dreams is more powerful than one with all the facts.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Shira Miller
Gallup does some wonderful research on workplace wellbeing. And what I love is that they have shown that when employees prioritize their physical and their psychological wellness, your overall well-being, and whether that’s through exercise, having good conversations, engaging in things that align with your values, you’re going to have better job satisfaction, your wellness is going to be better, your actual health, you think smarter. So, I love that people realize, and studies like this that well-being at work is really critical to your performance and the overall success of the company.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Shira Miller
It’s called Peak Performance: Elevate Your Game, Avoid Burnout, and Thrive with the New Science of Success. This book came out like eight or nine years ago, but I constantly go back to it because it has so many helpful tips.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, Brad Stulberg was on the show talking about that, and it is fantastic. And a favorite tool?

Shira Miller
I have become obsessed with ChatGPT. I do a lot of writing, I have to do a lot of research at work, and it can’t create original content well, but whenever I’m trying to dig into a topic and get more insights, it’s a wonderful tool to just go deeper and give me different perspectives, insights, research. It has saved me so much time. I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you give us an example or prompt that has made all the difference for you?

Shira Miller
Yes. So, recently, I’ve been developing a new keynote that is about activating the remarkable and it’s harnessing the power of optimism in the workplace. So, I wanted to go in and I wanted to get examples of companies that had really inspiring value-based purpose statements because that’s one of the ways in which you activate the remarkable. You help people reignite the why, find their purpose.

And so, I went in, it gave me a bunch of examples. And then I said, “Drill down even further and I want you to have companies that did well in 2024,” because I wanted profitable companies. And so, it came back and, for example, Airbnb is high on the list, Netflix, Moderna. And so, I was able to go ahead and get those examples rather than spend hours and hours of research just by using ChatGPT, the paid version.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So, you said, “Hey, give me an example of someone at Moderna who did this thing.”

Shira Miller
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
That is a great use case there in terms of I think you said it just right. I don’t trust its words to be good but I do trust it to surface swell things faster than Google and with more specificity. I like Perplexity for this as well. So, right on. And favorite habit as well, could we hear that?

Shira Miller
I am one of those early morning exercisers. I did not start that way. I was not a morning person 30 years ago, but that is how I get my magic and how I start the day doing something completely for myself. So, I work out almost every day before I get the day started. And it just gives me energy and optimism and makes everything go smoother.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Shira Miller
No matter where you find yourself in life, I don’t care how old you are, what your circumstances are, you can get unstuck. You can start today. You can start now.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Shira Miller
I would say follow me on LinkedIn. It’s Shira Miller. I’d love to have you there. I always post new content. I’ve got a newsletter. I’ve got videos and a lot of helpful content that I’d love to share.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Shira Miller
If you want to be awesome at your jobs, I want you to own your greatness, and you can start immediately by stop apologizing when you’ve done nothing wrong. We’ve given you the tools today. Pick one step. Start to do it, and you’re going to be amazed at how your confidence soars.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Shira, thank you.

Shira Miller
Thank you. This has been wonderful.

Jan 06
0

1021: How to Push Past Fear and Build Audacity with Anne Marie Anderson

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Anne Marie Anderson shares expert tips for overcoming fear to achieve your most audacious goals.

You’ll Learn

  1. The four reasons people get stuck
  2. Two ways to tame your inner critic
  3. How to break free from urgency

About Anne Marie 

Anne Marie Anderson is a three-time Emmy Award-winning broadcaster for ESPN, keynote speaker and author. Anne Marie Anderson’s book, Cultivating Audacity – Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win, releases in January 2025. She is also a mother of three, and enjoys playing beach volleyball, golf, hiking, swimming… and any game where you keep score!

Resources Mentioned

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Anne Marie Anderson Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Anne Marie, welcome!

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you, Pete. Excited to be talking with you.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be cultivating some audacity.

Anne Marie Anderson
Darn right. It’s time, isn’t it?

Pete Mockaitis
Let us, yeah. Well, so you have won three Emmys for broadcasting. That’s pretty impressive. Kudos.

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
I imagine you had to pick up some audacity along the way. So, why don’t we kick it off by you sharing your own story of how you cultivated that?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, so audacity is the willingness to take bold risks. That’s the actual definition of it. And I don’t think I was a particularly audacious child. I was pretty skittish, introverted, and such. But certainly, when you decide to work in television, you know there’s going to be a lot of rejection. When you decide to work in sports television, you know there’s going to be a lot of questions about whether or not you really should be there.

So, I kind of started to take a note of when somebody thought I couldn’t do something and started to cultivate it. And I think it’s really important, Pete. Like, it came out of watching. I’ll be really honest, my trip for audacity began when one of my good friends, who was very young and just starting his dream job and newly married and very fit, passed away suddenly.

And I thought, “Okay, if you can be 37 and newly married and starting your dream job to have it ripped away, I’m never going to wait for anything again.” And, honestly, that’s the introduction, by the way, to the book is about that. So, people know like, I wasn’t born this way. It is something that people can absolutely cultivate and grow.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. So, then tell us, any key surprising discoveries you’ve made as you’re researching this and putting together your book? We know that it can be built. Don’t have to be born that way. That’s great. Tell us, any other surprises along the way?

Anne Marie Anderson
I think most people want to be able to do the thing, right? We’ve all got the thing that we wanted to do, whether it is professionally, personally in your relationship, moving in one direction or the other. If you’re in a poor relationship, you can leave, if you want to cultivate your job. But I think we get stuck because wanting to do it and knowing how to do it is really different.

And so, I learned that there’s three components. There’s that mindset. That’s really, Pete, just based on optimism. Like, the belief that it’s going to work out, maybe not the way you wanted, but it’ll work out. Like, you’re down by 12 at the half in a basketball game and you come out the second half because maybe, if you get your offense together, you’ll win. So, there’s that mindset component.

And I think a lot of people have that, the optimism that, “Hey, this could be good. This could really work out,” but they get stuck in the second component, which is the behavior to take action, because you can sit on your mom’s couch and be optimistic all day long and nothing is going to happen until you take an action. Or, maybe, I learned in talking to people, they’ll take one action, they’ll take an action, and then say, “Oh, it didn’t work,” because they didn’t get their desired outcome.

So, what I learned with cultivating audacity, it is the consistency of the mindset and the behavior that leads to the identity. And so, you have to keep doing it over and over. And I think people can be a little bit impatient and they say, “Well, it didn’t work out.” Well, it didn’t work out the way that you wanted, but you got information from that to go again. And that’s the thing I’ve learned. That’s where people get stuck.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that’s really handy in terms of working out can be very broad in terms of somehow it was a positive endeavor as opposed to you got the precise, narrow, exact outcome that you had hoped for and imagined. And I think that’s a really cool thing to bear in mind right there in terms of, I think about entrepreneurship in terms of things have rarely worked out, maybe never, exactly the way I hoped, planned, predicted.

And yet, that was one of reasons I love this podcast as a concept in terms of there are so many ways this can work out well. And, sure enough, things evolved differently than I expected, but it was differently and well. And when you were talking about the learning, being one of those pieces, is super handy or, you know, not to be cliche, but it’s like the real treasure that we hunted for were the friendships that we made along the way. I mean, that’s kind of corny and cheesy, but something that’s really true, it’s like, “No, you did a thing. You met some people and that was amazing. Those are transformational relationships forever.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Exactly. I think people need to recalibrate their relationship with rejection because they think rejection, fear, like it’s over as if it’s some kind of endpoint when, you know, and it took some work for me, but I really now see it all as just data. The data that drives me forward. And to your point, okay, it didn’t end the way that I hoped it would, but I did make this relationship with this person that I learned something from that I can then go in a different direction or a new tact. So, it all just became data and none of it’s the end of a sentence.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds like a pretty transformational place to get to in terms of, “Ah, rejection is no longer this horrifying sensation that is profoundly emotionally difficult,” but rather just, “Huh, how about that? Some data, some information.” How do we get there?

Anne Marie Anderson
When I’ve interviewed people, there’s four things that stand between them and the thing that they want to do. So, it’s fear, fear of embarrassment, rejection, failure, judgment, whatever it is. Time, money, and your inner critic. And I believe you have to deal with that first part, the fear, originally.

So, here’s what I tell people. Go fail. Like, legit, go fail. Because if you’re so afraid to fail, go do something and fail at it, and then see how you survived, and then go again and again. I tell people to seek out, if you have a real sensitivity to rejection, seek it out. I got to a point in my career where I would apply for jobs that there was no chance that I was going to get because I wanted to desensitize myself to rejection.

And every time that I was rejected for it, I would then say, “Yeah, that doesn’t hurt me personally anymore.” I’d ask some information and maybe I’d get a few nuggets out of it. It takes practice. It’s the consistency of getting yourself to realize that rejection, and people say, you want to talk about cliches, rejection is just redirection. It is. It really is. When you get rejected by something, you look for the next step as a branch off of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Seeking out rejections. Yes, I remember I’ve had the experience when I wrote my first book. This is old school and I didn’t really know what I was doing, but I heard you should send a one-page query letter to these publishing houses. So, I did just that. I sent over 100 of these. And it was a very steady situation, going to the mailbox, old school, getting pieces of paper day after day after day after day that said, “No, no, no, no, no.”

I found it actually very helpful for this very notion because, one, it wasn’t super high stakes because I thought, “Okay, I’ll just self-publish, so I’ve got options, you know, whatever. But it’d be kind of cool if I had a legit publisher behind me.” And, two, just to have it kind of appearing in my mailbox such that I could open them when I was ready on any given day.

It’s like, “You know what? Not today. I’m going to read these rejection letters tomorrow.” And then it’s like, “Okay. And I have a nice little pile. How much dosage do I want? You know what? I can handle all seven of these. Let’s open all seven.”

Anne Marie Anderson
That’s awesome, I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, it’s pretty handy. So, now, if we’re not sending letters to a bunch of people, what are your top tips for us to do some seeking out of the rejections?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, I love that you said not particularly high stakes. I’m not asking anybody, I’m not encouraging anybody, by any means, to go quit your job and see how it goes. I’m asking for risks that are worth it versus reckless. So, as you’re starting to figure out rejections, you need to get comfortable with saying no, seeing how things turn out from there, because no is a complete sentence, right?

Like, “Can you come help with the yearbook for your kid’s school?” “No,” and then you don’t have to finish that sentence. So, I think there’s this sitting in uncomfortable no first, because we tend to over explain. And then realizing that that goes both ways. And that if you’re asking a question for somebody, asking a favor, asking if they will publish your book, asking anything, and they say no, you need to then start to get curious about it and not insulted by it.

I started to poke around in how I felt, like physically in my body, what I was thinking, what my inner critic was saying to me when I would get a rejection. Curiosity helps you so much take the emotion out of things. Some things, like if you’re sending letters to a hundred publishers, as you’re talking about, you don’t need to explore the no any further. I then congratulate you for asking and asking and asking because that’s a perfect way to desensitize yourself.

But it starts with a little action at first, maybe it’s you saying no to somebody else, seeing how that feels, and then when you get rejected, get curious. Okay, do you feel that in your heart? Do you feel that in your head? Does it mean that you’re less than? What’s your inner critic telling you about that rejection? There’s lots of ways that you can kind of dive in instead of pushing it away.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that curious piece. And we had Dr. Judson Brewer on the show, and his book Unwinding Anxiety, he had a great tip to get curious. Actually, say out loud, “Hmm.” And that kind of in your body, just kind of make some things happen with regard to shifting into a curious zone. And then I like what you’re saying there with regard to specific bodily sensations and specific inputs. So, let’s just go super deep on this.

Anne Marie Anderson
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
If, let’s say you’re noticing something, I am noticing, maybe, in my body, I’m feeling, “Oh, boy, my heart starts thumping. It’s kind of faster and heavier. I feel a heat rising and it’s particularly on my neck.” And I’m thinking things like, “Ugh, I’m such an idiot. That was so stupid. This is never going to work.” So, let’s just say, okay, we got curious, we identified some things, now what?

Anne Marie Anderson
First of all, the question I would always ask, and it’s so basic, but, like, would you tell somebody else, “That’s so stupid. It’s not going to work”? Of course, you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t just say to your friend, “I’m so stupid. It was never going to work.” So, I recommend separating that voice from yourself. Because if that’s not the way you talk, then that’s not you talking to yourself that way.

The way you separate it from yourself is you give it a name. And it’s so basic, I realized, Pete, but I even learned this with my 12-year-old daughter, because I picked her up from school and I said, “How’s it going?” And she said, “I’m stupid. I can’t do math. And, oh, by the way, I’m fat.” And I was like, “Yo, that’s a lot to take in from a 12-year-old all at once.”

And so, when we unpacked that a little bit, and said, “You wouldn’t say that to somebody else. Give it a name.” I said, “What name do you want to pick?” And she said, “Jerry.” And so, I said, “Okay.” So, every time I hear her go, “Ugh, I can’t do this,” you know, I said to her, “What do you want? What would you say to Jerry if Jerry was an outside person saying it?” She goes, “I’d say, ‘Shut up, Jerry.’

And so, when I hear her get so frustrated, I’ll yell from my office or wherever, “Shut up, Jerry,” and she’ll be like, “Ugh, frustrating,” but it takes the awareness out of it that you’re being super unkind to yourself. So, that’s part one in terms of the actual inner voice. That’s not the truth. That’s not facts. That’s just a thought. And you have control of your thoughts. So, you can tell your Jerry to back off and shut up.

And then you sit with the feelings and you explore those with, “Okay, is it like when I get red or something, when I feel that flush here?” that might be embarrassment or fear of being exposed for not being really good at whatever it is I’m trying to do. Or, it might be fear of judgment because I’m worried what somebody else is going to think.

And that’s a great one to dive into because somebody else thinking it, “Are they doing what you want to do? Or are they just judging you? Or are you perceiving that they’re going to judge you?” So, kind of separating the thought first and then trying to pinpoint the emotion and where it fits specifically into what your heart rate is telling you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, let’s walk it all the way through then, and say, “Yes, that is the thing. I am concerned that someone else is going to think I’m dumb. I’m not good. I’m bad at this. I’m an imposter.” What’d I do with that?

Anne Marie Anderson
So, if someone thinks that of you, then what happens? Like, okay, so they think that of you, what’s the next thing? I walk through this sometimes with my coaching clients where I had one that was going on television, and she was absolutely terrified. And I kept saying to her, “Okay, and then what? And then what?” as she’s about to go on the air, we’re talking. She said, “Oh, I think I might pass out.”

And I said, “Okay, so you’re laying on the ground, a microphone in your hand, you’ve passed out, and then what happens?” And she’s like, “Well, obviously, that’s not going to happen.” I’m like, “Okay, so we’ve reached the point of where we’ve gotten to massive catastrophization where it’s not reasonable that that’s going to happen.” So, in your case, okay, they think I’m bad. I’m exposed as not being good at my job in their eyes. Okay, and then what?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you know what’s so funny is I’ve done this with myself with regard to, I think I was entering into a negotiation and I had to be more assertive than normal. Because, usually, I’m super friendly, collaborative. But at this time, I was like, “You know, if push really came to shove, I’m okay completely torching this relationship to get what I want.”

And that’s almost never true of me. And I’m not going to be like evil, right? But if I have to choose between the two, it’s like, “I 100 % want the outcome over the relationship here,” which is so out of character for me. I was challenging myself, it’s like, “So, what if this guy thinks that I’m a total jerk, that he hates doing business with me, and doesn’t want to do business?”

And I thought, “I guess the worst-case scenario would be anytime he hears my name in any context, he screams at the top of his lungs, ‘I hate that F-er.’” And I was like, “You know what? I’m still okay with that.”

Anne Marie Anderson
“I can live with that.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m still okay with the trade here, given the stakes versus the relationship.” But because it was so new, and I am a bit of a people pleaser, it was challenging for me, and it worked out fine. We have a fine relationship and the negotiated outcome is okay.

Anne Marie Anderson
But that leads right to what we talked about, Pete, right, is that it wasn’t the outcome you wanted and you survived, originally. So, the more people get used to doing that, to saying, “Okay, this person may think I’m exposed,” and you keep going anyway, the less sensitive you become and the less vulnerable to peeling back yourself in order to please other people.

My friend, Laura Gassner-Otting, always says, “Why give a vote to anybody who shouldn’t even have a voice?” If they’re not going where you’re going, or if they haven’t been there, right, they may not get a vote. If you’re asking them for a job, sure, they can get a vote, but they’re not necessarily going to be able to have that voice in your head afterwards. They can say no, but you don’t have to believe if they say you’re horrible and you’re never going to work in this business again. That’s choice.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, and I think the “and then what” is so handy because it unmasks the, I guess, like The Wizard of Oz or The Emperor Has No Clothes. It’s like, “Okay, so you’ve imagined this horrifying scenario, it feels really bad, but the objective reality is not so heinous.” It’s like, okay, some of your opportunities might be limited because of that person’s sphere of influence. Okay, that’s kind of inconvenient, but like you’re not dead, hospitalized, bankrupt. You’re still in pretty great shape.

Anne Marie Anderson
No, catastrophization is an incredible tool. I’ll tell you this, I’m a sports broadcaster, as you mentioned, I’ve worked for ESPN and other networks for 35 years. So, my first time on live television, because I was a producer first, was in 78 million homes. It wasn’t supposed to be that way. My very first time, I was supposed to be on a little network, things got shuffled around, I was a pretty accomplished producer. So, I was petrified outside the stadium, college football opening weekend, on ESPN too.

And my then husband said, “What’s the worst that can happen?” And I was like, “Buddy, if you want to know what the worst that can happen is, let me tell you.” I was like, “I could be so bad at this job that not only will I never get asked to be on air again, but I’ll never be asked to produce again because the people I produce for will know I can’t do their job. And I could lose my entire career over this for being so bad on air.”

“And if I lose my entire television career, I will be so miserable and you will have no choice but to leave me because I won’t be able to be a good mother to our children who aren’t even born yet and I could die destitute and alone.” And he was like, “Wow.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Anne Marie, you’re a champion at this.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah. I say take it all the way to destitute and alone because obviously that’s not going to happen. And anything short of that becomes a success. So, catastrophize, it’s a great tool because you’ll see how just ridiculous your mind, ridiculous places your mind can take you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. So, thank you. All right. So, we went through the whole arc there associated with we got some fear, we sought out some rejection, we felt some rejection, we explored it and then we got to the other side. Cool. Any other pro tips, do’s or don’ts in that department?

Anne Marie Anderson
Do the thing that scares you the most first. So, go for the biggest job first, the biggest change. Now understand, Pete, I do want to be clear about this because sometimes the change you’re looking for, let’s say you’re in an unhealthy relationship and you need to change that, and you’ve got some fear around leaving that person. I’m not asking you to, Devil’s care, just throw it out.

There are some systems where you can build… an important part of this as your front row, the people who are going to cheer you on and challenge you and lift you up. I think it’s really important when you’re going through this facing fear that you have carefully curated what I call the front row. And that front row may not be your best friend. It may not be your mom because they want you to keep you safe.

The front row will be people that will challenge you, help you. If it’s leaving a relationship, it may be somebody who’s helping you in terms of an attorney or somebody more skilled or somebody who’s been through it. So, your front row isn’t just your buddies. It’s people who know where you’re going or have already been where you’re going.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, certainly. So, having support makes all the difference, and to be thoughtful about not just friends and family, but those who have expertise, they know the way and care about your flourishing as opposed to just your safety. But you’ve great point about parents. Sometimes that’s how that goes.

Anne Marie Anderson
Right. And tell them, tell them they’re in your front row. We use that phrase. And it’s basically where you’ll be, “Here’s a thing I want to do. And I’m a little bit scared of it. And I’m worried that I don’t have whatever, the qualifications, the funds, the time, whatever it is. And I’m wondering if you would take a seat in my front row to help me get from here to there.”

And sometimes that’s a shoulder to cry on. It can be anything, but when you make people aware that you have selected them to be in your front row, they then play a more active role in your search for the next big thing.

Pete Mockaitis
And I like the visual as well because it’s fun and it’s not a super high level of commitment in terms of forever or, it’s like, “Will you be my mentors?” Like, “Okay, what are we talking about here? This sounds maybe big.” But front row is like, “Okay, you’re a person who’s providing some level of support over the course of this particular mission, quest, journey, transition. And then that’s fun.

I mean, in terms of you get to bask in the glory as a front row attendee, even if all you did was make an introduction. And then it’s like, “Hey, I got to be part of that. And by being invited into the front row, I feel like I had even more of a role. It’s like it’s elevated what I did beyond the 20 minutes of effort that I did it, you know?”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yep, yep. And it’s a witness too. It’s a witness. If things don’t work out the way that you want, here’s your friend in your front row, your colleague, somebody who’s, maybe you don’t even know them personally, maybe it’s an author and you’re trying to write a book and this person is helping you out, but you’ve got somebody to help you with perspective. And I think that’s a critical component of the front row. And it’s an honorary place.

And by the way, don’t be afraid to pull somebody out of your front row if you discover that they have a jealousy, competition, those kinds of things. I love that you said, like, it’s not a lifetime appointment, the front row. It can be ever changing and you can use it. I have a fitness front row and if I don’t show up at the gym, my phone starts blowing up, “Hey, where are you?” I’ve got a television front row, a personal relationship front row. There’s some overlap, but there’s some people that are just in one category.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. And you recommend just actually using that language and telling them what you mean by it?

Anne Marie Anderson
I do. I do because it creates an awareness and an intention, and kind of what you were alluding to. It’s a place of pride for them that they might take it a little more seriously their role in supporting you because they’ve been offered a job. How are they supposed to know otherwise? So, when you tell them, “Hey, I’m going to do this. I’m worried about it. So, I need your support and that would mean a lot to me.” Great things happen in those kinds of groups.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we talked about four things getting in the way: fear, time, money, inner critic. And it sounds like fear and inner critic have a lot of overlap. Is there any distinction you would suggest or anything special we should do about the inner critic that’s different than what we’re doing for fear?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, naming it really is the big thing, as we talked about, and that connects with your fear. And then some people will talk to your inner critic and they’ll say, like, “I get it. You’re always going to be there.” You know, I think it was Glennon Doyle who wrote in her book, like it’s “A passenger in the car, but you’re absolutely not allowed to drive. You’re not allowed to play with the radio, but it’s fine. I acknowledge that you’re going to come along.”

I think so much of what we do is try to push it away, and I say, “Well, what if you let that in? What if you let your inner critic really talk to you so that you can become aware of it, and be like, ‘Yeah, no, that’s not helpful’?” Some people have a mantra. One of my friends, who is a keynote speaker, is still very nervous.

And so, she created, she always looks at the joint between the ceiling and the wall, the back wall of the room, and she will repeat to herself a mantra to push her inner critic out by saying “Where the floor hits the ceiling is a wonderful feeling.” That’s my friend, Missy West, uses that. Creating something to shake you out of spiraling with your inner critic, whether it’s a name, a mantra, because you can only have one thought in your mind at a time. So, that’s helpful to push your inner critic out of your head at that moment.

Pete Mockaitis
And does the inner critic have some value? Like, I think of the inner critic sometimes as like the part of you that wants to keep you stuck but in a of a safe sort of a way. Is it just the utter destructiveness that needs to be abolished? Or is there a means of engaging in conversation with the inner critic to surface the goodness while leaving out the badness?

Anne Marie Anderson
Perfection, Pete. Like, you totally get it. Think of it like this. Your ego or your id comes up with this crazy idea, like, “We should do this. That would be amazing.” And your super ego, in this case, I’d call that the inner critic, saying, “That’s too dangerous. That’s too scary. That’s too risky,” whatever it is, and your ego is trying to find a way to get you there safely. So, that’s why I say the curiosity about what the inner critic is saying because maybe there’s a nugget of truth in there.

Maybe it’s raising some questions about safety, not about “You suck,” but about safety and things where you can go back and examine it. Okay, your inner critic is saying, “You don’t have the money to be able to do this crazy thing.” Okay, that’s when you have that conversation with your inner critic, “Tell me more about that. I don’t have the money there. Okay, well, how can I get to a place where I have the money? Well, do I really need that much money to take step one?”

Maybe you do, but that’s where I think your inner critic can help you, but your inner critic is never the one that makes the decision. Never. They can raise questions for you, but they are never the one who’s going to say, or you should allow to say, “You suck. This is not for you. Don’t do it.” They’re just somebody to raise questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. They provide input. They’re advisor, not the decider. Lovely. Thank you. Well, can you tell us a cool story about someone who internalized some of these principles, concepts, and then cultivated tremendous audacity, where before they had little, and great things happened?

Anne Marie Anderson
What comes to my mind first was a friend of mine who wanted to get his real estate license. He was working in a store and not doing very well and not happy and he has two kids. So, he wanted to create more income, wanted his real estate license, but wasn’t taking the test. And I finally said, like, “What’s the issue?” And he said, “I can’t find enough time to study for the test, and so I’m afraid I’m going to fail it.”

And I said, “Okay, a test is $60. There’s no limit on how many times you can take it.” So, I told him to go take the test and fail it. And he’s like, “On purpose?” And I said, “Well, not on purpose, but you’ve told me you’re not going to pass. So, let’s get the fear of failing the test out of the way.” Spent $60, he went, he failed the test.

“Okay, next thing, let’s talk about time.” We have a tendency to prioritize things that are urgent over what’s important, because your whole day is urgent, constantly, every email, every text, every phone call, you got to take care of the kids and make food and do all the other things, and carving out time that’s important. So, with my help, he and his wife sat down and said, “Where can I get an hour a day without leaving you hanging with the young kids?” He has two young kids.

And so, they decided a half hour in the morning, she was going to handle breakfast and all that. And then a half hour in the evening, he would help get the kids to the bath, and then he would lock himself away for a half hour. She’d take on the bath and he would be out for book and bed. And once they had that rhythm where they worked to the problem, there’s the two problems, right, fear that you’re going to fail, so he did that. Okay, survived.

Then no time to study, did that, took the test again, failed again, but that time it didn’t crush him because he had a system and was like, “Okay, I just need to keep going with our plan and studying.” He ended up absolutely passing that, quit the other job and is doing extremely well financially now because he took the leap, he had his front row set, his wife was in his front row saying, “I got you during this. I can create some space for you.” And he faced his fear and addressed his time concerns.

Pete Mockaitis
But my favorite part of this story is that, as you’re crafting this plan, it’s like, “Okay, so step one, step two, step three. Step one, go fail.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah. Right? But do!

Pete Mockaitis
Like, that’s in the design of the blueprint that you’re using. And I think that is a liberating idea that could be great for many plans we might make for ourselves, “All right, step one, go fail at it. All right, now that’s over, what’s step two?”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, you’ve survived it. Because I think a lot of people see failure as like the end, like a period at the end of the sentence. It’s a comma, I promise you. Rejection, it’s a comma and it moves you on. So, if that’s what’s paralyzing you, go fail first, survive it and then get to work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, Anne Marie, anything else you want to make sure to really mention or cover any top do’s or don’ts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Anne Marie Anderson
I would encourage people to look at the urgency fallacy. That’s one other component that I think a lot of people get stuck we hide between, and I’m guilty of this too. If I have something big to do that I don’t want to do or even like expense reports that I don’t want to do, I’ll have the cleanest house in the world because I don’t want to do that thing, and so I will do anything else to avoid it.

And so, the urgency fallacy is when you take a break on what’s urgent, because anything urgent can wait 15 minutes, I promise you. Not an emergency, your kid’s not bleeding on the floor, but something that people think are urgent, returning an email, and work towards what’s important. And if that’s you starting a business, that’s you sending some notes right at that moment. If that is you looking at your finances and deciding where you can make some trims, that’s that moment.

I encourage people four times a day, carve out 15-minute blocks, unless you’ve got an hour a day, but most people don’t have one straight hour a day where everything goes off. And, you know, I tell you what, my kids, Pete, when they said like, “I’m hungry,” I would go, “Same.” I got teenagers, they can make their own food. They get really frustrated when they hear me say, “Yeah, same buddy, I’m hungry. Anyway, I’m going in to do what’s important now for 15 minutes.”

So, I think that’s a really important component. Stop putting everything and everyone else first if going to do the thing, whatever audacious, is going to make your life better, your family’s life better, prioritize important.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Anne Marie, I love that so much. Because we’ve heard Eisenhower matrix, Stephen Covey, you know, urgent-importance, two-by-two matrix, yada, yada. But what you’re bringing to this, which I find very intriguing is, one, urgency kind of has a grip on us. And what you’re suggesting is to proactively break its command by doing these 15-minute bits, which is great because, one, we may have some resistance, especially with important things, because important things can feel hard. They often are.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s why they’re not already done is because they’re hard, but have high value. And so, it could feel like you don’t have the mental space. It’s like, “I want to really make sure I tackle that when I have a whole afternoon available.” And you say, “No, no, no, that may never happen. And you’re going to remain in the grips of urgency if you play that game.” So, to make it a habit of “I’m taking these 15 minutes.”

And, in a way, it’s so defiant in terms of, like, the inner personal power that that’s generating for you with regard to, “Yes, I see that urgency. I’m feeling the tug of it. And I’m now conscientiously turning away from it to do this other thing. And my children will whine about being hungry for 15 minutes, and they’re okay. And I am better off, well, actually we’re all better off for having put that 15 minutes in there.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, the big difference is in people identifying what’s really urgent and what’s important. Things that are urgent have an impending deadline. They can usually be accomplished pretty quickly and without a lot of deep thought. If you’re answering an email really quickly or a text or making dinner, whatever it is, that qualifies as urgent in my book. Things that are important don’t necessarily have an impending deadline, exactly as you said, like, “When I have a whole afternoon, then I’ll do it.”

But there are consequences if you don’t get it done, meaning you won’t move closer to your values and vision and who you want to be. So, they do take more effort, more thought, but they move you closer to where you want to be. And the 15 minutes, people can do it however they want.

I’ve had some people who like to do 20-minute blocks. The real estate agent I told you about, he did two half-hour blocks, but they’re intentional blocks. And I think intentional is exactly the right word that separates just living your life and living it with this prioritization.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you found inspiring?

Anne Marie Anderson
My mother has always said, “This, too, shall pass,” and it made me nuts in my entire life. But what I realized is not just the discomfort will pass or the failure or the bad situation, but the good times too. They’ll pass, the great calm. And then there’ll be another storm that comes up.

And so, when I’m in a really good space, I remind myself, “Just enjoy this. Don’t be thinking so far ahead. We don’t know what that looks like.” And eventually there’ll be more problems that come up. So, enjoy the space you’re in. If you’re in an uncomfortable space, know that it will pass again. I live near the ocean. I just think of the waves coming.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Anne Marie Anderson
I like the studies about men traditionally applying for jobs when they have less credentials than a woman will apply. Women liking to wait until they’ve got all the credentials. And people think, “Oh, it’s women breaking the glass ceiling.” It’s really about a sticky floor. And as women, we need to jump earlier and risk earlier.

If a man applies for a job at 50 % and doesn’t get it, he’s got some information and some data. If he goes back at 65 and doesn’t get it again, now he’s been in front of that person hiring twice. And if he goes back at 85% and the female goes at 85%, well, he’s got a leg up because they’ve watched him add to his skillset and grow. And so, I like those studies because I think we can reverse those numbers with a little bit of audacity.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Anne Marie Anderson
Right now, I’m going to say Good Awkward by Henna Pryor.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Anne Marie Anderson
I have a large, it’s not on my desk right now, a large one-hour time. What do we call that thing? It’s escaping me.

Pete Mockaitis
Hourglass?

Anne Marie Anderson
Yes, an hourglass. Thank you. Not a hard word, but, anyway. And I put, sorry, it’s 30 minutes. And I turn that over on my desk to remind myself. I like to work, just in general, in 30-minute blocks and then I’ll get up for five minutes, move around, do something in the kitchen and then sit down and turn it back over again. It helps me feel like it’s not going to be endless, an endless day for me if I know that every 30 minutes I get to get up for five.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, the front row. People really attach to that front row concept and it works. It works. And I had somebody who heard me at a talk and she approached me afterwards, and said, “You know, I want to be…” it was an educational keynote. And she said, “I really want to be an assistant principal. I have been a teacher for 28 years.” And then she casually mentioned her principal was there. And I said, “Well, did you tell him what you want?” She said, “No, but I will.” And I was like, “Yeah, today’s the day. Unfortunately, you have me right here. So, today’s the day.”

And after much cajoling, she went up to him and said, “Here’s something I’d like to do. Will you be in my front row?” And he had heard my talk, so he knew the verbiage. And six weeks later, I got a note from her, I swear to you, and she said, “I start my new job tomorrow as assistant principal at this school. Thanks so much.” And so, the front row works.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Anne Marie Anderson
To my website, AnneMarieAnderson.com. And, of course, I’m on social as well. You can find me at CultivatingAudacity.com, or Anne Marie Anderson TV.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Anne Marie Anderson
If you want to be awesome at your job, ask yourself what you can do that nobody is asking you to do. How can you be a better teammate to your co-workers and not shining the light on yourself? Teams make the world go around. So, you want to be awesome at your job? Elevate your co-workers, help them shine, take something off their plate.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Anne Marie, this is fun. Thank you. I wish you much audacity.

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you very much. I wish you a lot of audacity too, Pete. Thanks for having me on.