Confidence Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Lorraine, welcome!

Lorraine Lee
Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m excited to be chatting as well. And I think presence is something that comes up often with listeners. And I’d like for you to start us with a particularly surprising or counterintuitive discovery you’ve made about professionals and presence while putting together your book, Unforgettable Presence.

Lorraine Lee
Oh, gosh. I feel like so many things that I had to learn the hard way over my career, but I would say one of the biggest surprises for me in my career was that doing really great hard work is not enough to get promoted, to get noticed, and to have a presence at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Really great, hard work is not enough. Can we get noticed and advance without it?

Lorraine Lee
You definitely need it. It’s definitely a foundational piece, but you need to take it one step further. So, yes, you are viewed as a great worker, someone who executes well, delivers great results, and you need to make sure that you have the presence, and that you are making sure that your work is being seen in the right places and has a presence in the right Slack channels, for example, in emails, and in all the places, essentially, where important people are who need to see your work to know about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you give us a story that illustrates this? We could see someone who was working hard, it wasn’t doing the trick, but then they did the other stuff and away they went.

Lorraine Lee
Of course. So, this is the intro that I talk about in my new book, Unforgettable Presence. And I start off sharing my experience working at LinkedIn. So, I spent most of my formative twenties at LinkedIn. It was my dream job. I worked on really exciting projects, very high-profile projects. I was well-liked by my colleagues. I liked my coworkers as well. By all accounts, looking on paper, it should have been, “Oh, of course, she’s going to get promoted at some point.”

But as hard as I tried, once I was in that mid-level position, it was really hard for me to make that jump to senior leadership, and it never ended up happening for me. And I couldn’t figure out why, I was like, “Oh, everything seems to be correct that I’m doing.” And it wasn’t until I left LinkedIn and I had more time to reflect and really think about what went wrong that I realized presence was a big piece of it, making sure I was advocating for myself, making sure I was visible, and really making sure that what I was known for in my career brand was reflecting what I wanted it to be.

And so, thankfully, that self-reflection allowed me to approach my next job with more intention, with more strategy so that I ended up getting promoted after one year there into a director-level role. And I really attribute that to all the lessons I learned while I was at LinkedIn, and all the things I saw that I could have done better. I brought that to my next company and was able to move up much faster.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, as you reflect on your time at LinkedIn, are there any particular face-palm moments of embarrassment as you think, “Oh, my gosh, I was so young and foolish and naive. I definitely should have done X, or I definitely should not have done Y”? Could you give us a couple bullet points on just some of the very clear in-hindsight retrospect specific things that were missed opportunities?

Lorraine Lee
There was one conversation I remember I had with a former coworker. And she, again, all similar to me, like well-liked, did great work. She had been at the company a little bit longer than me. And I always wondered in the back of my head, “How come she hadn’t gotten promoted yet in all the time that I knew her?”

And I remember one day, we get into the office and they announced promotions and she gets promoted. And I was so excited for her, so happy for her, I went up to her, congratulate her to talk to her about it. And I asked her, I’m kind of like, “This is so great. Like, I know you’ve been wanting this. Like, what happened? Did you have to do anything for it?”

And she shared this piece of advice with me. She said, “Oh, my manager didn’t even know that I wanted to get promoted.” And I feel like that was like a huge, just like, oh-my-gosh moment where, to me, of course, I’m like, “Oh, doesn’t everyone want to get promoted? Everyone wants to move up, and my manager knows I’m ambitious, right?”

And the fact that she had to say it, I feel like that was a huge game-changer for me in terms of like, “Oh, you have to be really explicit.” And I think even while I was at LinkedIn, I wasn’t explicit enough even after I learned that. But like later on when I moved to Prezi, I was like, “This is my goal. You know, I’m trying to reach it within a year. These are like the steps I’m going to take to get there. What do you think?” you know, checking in with my manager.

And so, I feel like that’s a big one that people don’t realize, is that there are certain assumptions we can make, like, “Oh, I’ve worked at a company for a certain number of years. Oh, I’m working on this really cool project. Definitely that’s enough to get promoted,” but there’s so much more that goes into it behind the scenes. But first things first, make it clear that that’s what you want in the first place.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, absolutely. And it’s so funny. I think that there’s a macro lesson there just in terms of assumptions. And I think it’s just our human nature to think, “Well, but of course, isn’t this what everybody wants?” And it’s not. We all want very different things for very different reasons in terms of some people say, “Do not, under any circumstances, promote me. I am loving the groove that I’m in,” talking to customers, or doing some coding, or doing the sales thing instead of leading people doing the thing. It’s like, “Do not, under any circumstances, promote me. I am digging it.”

And I think it’s so funny, just the weirdest flashback. I remember I was running a model UN Conference in college, and I got a stern email from one of the advisors of the groups that was coming to our conference, and she said, “Uh, I’m so distraught that we’re bringing all these students, but we don’t have any Security Council countries.” It’s like, “Oh, well, you didn’t put down that you want any Security Council countries.”

And you might assume that, of course, if you’re doing a model UN Conference, you want the Security Council countries. They’re awesome. But some people find that very intimidating to be in a small group of 15, you know, doing the thing. And so, I was like, “Oh, do you want these countries?” Like, “Well, yes, please.” And so away you go.

So, I think that’s huge right there, is we have assumptions about, “Well, of course, everyone wants to be promoted,” or fill in the blank for anything in your career. That’s huge right there.

Lorraine Lee
That’s such a good call. I talked to someone recently and she said her husband has, similarly, like you just said, like he does not want to get promoted because it means that he has to go into the office a few days a week. Like, his manager has really wanted to promote him and he’s like fighting it like, you know, at all costs. He’s like, “I don’t want to get promoted. I don’t want to go into the office.” So, like you said, everyone has different life circumstances and goals at different points in life.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And then, thinking from the other perspective of the manager, when the manager sees there is a big complex, tricky project coming up, exactly the sort of thing that doing well could make folks think, “Oh, maybe we should promote this person,” they don’t know. It could feel like, “Hmm, I could present this to Lorraine, but would that feel like an imposition?” Like, “Oh, more work and stress and responsibility. I’m not into that.” So, they don’t even know, “Would that be a welcome or rejected?”

Well, any other face-palm insights from your time at LinkedIn?

Lorraine Lee
I think another one was the way you present your work also needs to be strategic. So, it’s not just, “Oh, I’m going to be visible and I’m going to list off every single thing I did,” or, “Oh, I’m going to be visible and I’m going to, like, shoot off a quick email.” It actually takes, it’s a skill, which I think is also quite interesting and it took me a while to realize too.

It’s a skill to learn how to position your work, to understand the stakeholders who are receiving the information, to know how to talk yourself up, talk your team up in a way that others will embrace. And so, LinkedIn, we sent out a weekly newsletter on behalf of the whole team. And that was really great practice for me to see, “Oh,” I would put my information in and then we had someone on the team just editing the whole thing.

And sometimes he would cut things out. Sometimes he would rephrase things. And, similarly, like when I would send out an email on a project I was working on, I would show it to my manager, and say, “Hey, what do you think of the way I’m presenting this? Does this work, given the audience? Am I presenting this well?” And so, he or she, depending on my manager at the time, would go in and make edits. And so, that was also very eye-opening, how much work goes into those kinds of emails. It’s not just like a quickly dash off thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so let’s speak about that for a moment because I think it’s quite possible there’s a segment of listener who says, “Oh, that sounds miserable. And are we trying to get something done here, Lorraine? We’re trying to add value, solve problems, build, ship stuff, build features, delight customers. And we’re fiddling over how we’re wording an internal email. Is this really time well spent?” How do you respond to this?

Lorraine Lee
It is. I get it. I get you’re like, “Oh, there’s just so many other things we could be doing,” but that’s a huge part of, like I said at the beginning, like working hard, getting cool things done. I mean, that’s great. But if no one knows about it, like what’s it all for? And so, I like to use the analogy, “If a tree falls in the forest, did it make a sound?” If you worked hard, but no one knows about it, like, did it even happen, right?

So, we have to, again, mindset shift, like, in order to take control of our career, to be the CEO of our own careers, I talk about in the book, to be more intentional with our career, there’s a bunch of different puzzle pieces that go into it, and advocating for ourselves, being more visible with our work, that’s one of them. And it’s going to benefit the team. It’s going to benefit everyone when they know what you’re doing, when they can help connect dots, when you can connect dots, and really understand the impact that your team is having.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell us what would be perhaps your recommended first puzzle piece, immediate initial steps in building an unforgettable presence?

Lorraine Lee
The first thing is mindset and understanding the concept of a career brand. And so, a lot of us, we, or, you know, speaking for myself, you enter the workforce, and you just come from school, and you think there’s sort of a set path for you, “I’m going to work hard up in here for two years. I’m going to get promoted, and keep moving up the ladder.” And that’s just not the way that corporate America works at this point.

And so, to understand that and to have the mindset of, “Okay, I need to be in control of my career, be the CEO of my own career, and really take things into my own hands. So, I’ll just be passive,” and let things happen to you, I think that’s the first step. The second thing I would say is understanding this concept of a career brand, which is essentially a personal brand, but a reframe in a way that maybe makes people feel less like cringy about it.

So, personal brand is something we all have already and it’s essentially our reputation and what people say about us when we’re not in the room. So, thinking through your personal brand or career brand and understanding, “Okay, how do people currently perceive me? And how might I want them to perceive me in the future?”

Now, if I had done this exercise at LinkedIn, I would have realized, “Okay, the way that people are probably describing me, executor, hard worker, fast worker,” all these adjectives are not necessarily the adjectives that people use to describe leaders, which would be more like strategic, visionary, cross-functional collaborator, whatever it is. And so that’s really critical, too, to make sure that you are just self-aware of like where you’re at currently. And once you know that you can start making adjustments and moving towards that future self, whatever your goals are.

And then the third piece of that, I think, is your virtual presence and realizing that that’s a really important piece. Your virtual presence on video, your virtual presence on LinkedIn, those can sometimes be even more important than our in-person presence because we’re meeting most people virtually first. And so, to be intentional about that and think about, “How do I want to show up in those spaces?” is really critical.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot when you talked about the brand keywords there, like hardworking, conscientious, detail-oriented, any number of these words. These sound like good things, like, “Hey, would you rather your employee be these things or the opposite of these things?” “Well, yes, yes, yes. Hardworking, we want that, certainly.”

And yet, as you’ve nicely highlighted, those are not the same things as what we think of in terms of an executive. And I think that, in a way that is applicable for any brand that you encounter, like there’s a time and a place for Chipotle. Think about eateries. And then there’s a time and a place for, say, Chick-fil-A, or Starbucks. So, these are big, well-known brands. And yet, we can say good things about each of them, and they may not be the match for what you’re seeking in a given gathering, moment, encounter, etc.

Lorraine Lee
Yeah. And it also depends, like, “What are you striving for?” Yeah, if you like being a hard worker, you like where you’re at, and all those are positive adjectives that describe you currently, great. But if you’re wanting, like me, like I was to advance and to be seen as a leader, you have to make some adjustments and change your perception in other people’s eyes.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s just get an example here. So, if we’re thinking, okay, all right. I want folks to be putting the adjective strategic onto me, to have these things tied together in terms of my brand vibe, what might I do in the course of living my career life to get strategic associated to me?

Lorraine Lee
There’s a lot of different things you can do. I think one of the first things I always say, like when you have a goal you’re working towards something, is to lean on the people around you, and, again, like make your goals known, but also build those relationships at work so that people, they know your goals. I call it, in the book, a feedback circle.

So, find your feedback circle. Who are the people who you know want you to succeed, who are going to give you honest, truthful feedback, who are going to look out for you? And as you start doing things with them, like, “Oh, I’m going to be presenting in a meeting next week, and I want to be seen as more strategic. Can you observe my presentation and let me know if you feel like, you know, I’m closer to that or do you feel like I’m still too in the weeds?”

So, the more you can bring people into what you’re trying to do and give you the feedback, they’re going to be looking out for you because I think the hardest thing to do when you are trying to change someone’s perception of what you want to be known for, is that you need other people’s feedback. Like, you don’t want to operate in a vacuum.

So, in the book, I talk about the EPIC career brand framework as a way to start thinking through what your brand is, how you want to position yourself. And so, EPIC stands for experiences, personality, identity, community. So, that C piece, knowing how your network sees you, knowing how others see you, that’s going to be critical and making sure whatever it is that you want to change to, like you’re staying aligned.

And then I had the chance to interview Dorie Clark in the book as well. She’s amazing. And she talked about the brand as raindrops and, like, you have to keep sort of repeating, dripping, you know, multiple mentions of your brand, and keep mentioning it, especially if you’re trying to change it, over time in many different places. It’s not like a flip of a switch, all of a sudden, you’re strategic. It’s going to take a little bit of time, consistent actions, consistent visibility, and just staying consistent with your actions in order for other people to see you like that.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear that, that makes a lot of sense there. We’ve had Dorie on the show a few times. She’s wonderful.

Lorraine Lee
Oh, good.

Pete Mockaitis
With the multiple exposures, that makes all the difference in the world because if it’s a one-time thing, you mentioned, like, “Wow, Lorraine was really sharp today. That was cool. Huh, I guess she had a good night’s sleep.” It’s almost like, “That’s sort of a one-off. That’s an exception,” versus, “Oh, I guess that’s who you are now. Cool.”

Lorraine Lee
Yeah, exactly. Like, it just takes so many repetitions and, especially, again, like so many of us are hybrid, virtual, like we are just so distracted. There are so many different places now we can communicate, we can see each other, and so you have to just keep going, and you got to, like, find all the right channels, and make sure it’s repeated constantly.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, the P of EPIC is personality. So, Lorraine, are we supposed to change our personality? Isn’t that inauthentic and fake? What do we do in there?

Lorraine Lee
Definitely do not need to change your personality. So, the personality piece is, yes, your personality and the soft skills that make you who you are. So, for example, I’m introverted. I know Dorie is introverted as well. And I talk about introversion all the time on LinkedIn. Like, that’s part of my brand. And I want people to know that I’m introverted because me being introverted means that I work a little bit differently. I think a little bit differently than perhaps what you conventionally would expect to see in corporate America.

And so, having people know whether you’re a more serious person, whether you’re like the culture builder and you’re always bringing energy, like that also impacts, like, “You have a big project? Hmm, we need certain personality types to keep this all going, to keep this moving.” You want people to know who you are and within reason. Like, you’re still in a professional setting, but showing more of your true self can also help people connect with you, and then know more about what you bring to the table.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s just say that I have a personality that some might call quirky or eccentric or weird, to be less positive. If we find ourselves where that’s true, just the way we are is distinctive, but maybe not in an advantageous way, what are we to do with that?

Lorraine Lee
I think If you have a personality, and it’s like rubbing a bunch of people the wrong way, and maybe it’s like something about the way you’re communicating, that might be worth revisiting. Like, what is going on? But if you have a quirky personality, a “weird” personality, I hope that you find a place that values those things because we don’t want to work with people who are all exactly the same as us. That’s not going to lead to better business results. And I just feel like work is more boring that way, right, when everyone is the same.

And so, don’t try to change your personality to fit everyone else. But if your personality, there’s something about it where you’re like constantly getting negative feedback or things are coming across a certain way, it isn’t helping your career, then I think maybe you probe a little bit deeper, try to understand how others might be perceiving you. It might not be your intention.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. That’s well said. Like, there could be just a couple things, like, “When you say words like awesome and cool beans, that doesn’t feel professional enough for our executive-level attorney clients.” And so, it’s like, “Oh, well, that’s easy. No problem. That’s a quick tweak there,” versus like, “The way you are.”

Lorraine Lee
You’re being.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, “The way you speak and be, seems like it would vibe more with a writing room of a comedy TV series than in a super buttoned-up professional services environment.”

Lorraine Lee
We all have different sides of our personality. So, like I have a more professional side of me that’s different than how I am with my friends, which is different than how I am with my family, and so that’s okay. Like, you can still be bringing different parts of your authentic self to those different situations, but, you know, sometimes it might require some tweaking or just adjusting some things just based on the context and setting that you’re in, like you said.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, speaking of letters standing for things, how’s that for a segue? You mentioned the UPI, a unique and powerful introduction. Tell us, what is this? Why is it important? And then I want lots of demonstrations.

Lorraine Lee
Sure. The UPI, I came up with this concept because I felt like, in a lot of meetings that I was in, a lot of networking events that I would go to, the introduction felt like such a throwaway moment for a lot of people. They would either just kind of rush off, you know, mention their job title, their company, or like, “Oh, I’ve been at the company for three years,” but that didn’t really tell me much.

And you don’t have to be speaking for, like, five minutes and having a super long-winded introduction, but adding just a little bit something extra, I feel like goes such a long way in others better understanding the value you offer, who you are, more of your personality. You come across as more authoritative, depending on what information you’re going to include.

And so, I started experimenting with this myself when I was at Prezi. So, I used to say something along the lines of, “Oh, I lead the editorial team at Prezi.” Well, okay, to me, I know what that means, but to someone who’s never worked with an editorial team before, like, “What the heck do you do?” So, then I changed it to, “I lead the editorial team, which means that I collaborate with a lot of business leaders such as yourself. I help them create educational content through Prezi. And then we distribute that to help inspire our millions of users.”

And so, with that, you now understand what I actually do. You understand some context, like, “Wow, you have hundreds of millions of users. Like, that’s a very powerful thing and an impressive thing,” so there’s like a little bit credibility there. And now you’ve learned a little bit more about me. And so, there’s a lot of different ways that you can approach that.

But I wanted people to, again, like intentionality is a key theme, but to be more intentional, to think, “Okay, every moment that we have with someone is a chance to leave an impression, to create unforgettable presence.” And we’re meeting new people all the time, right, new colleagues, clients, partners, like whoever it is. And so, that’s what the UPI was built for; unique and powerful introduction to remind people to think a little bit more about this important moment.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m thinking back to occasions in which, you know, a project team is assembled from across different departments, and so folks are meeting each other for the first time, like a kickoff meeting, and so everyone goes around and they say a little bit about, you know, who they are. And it’s funny, I remember, I always found that very boring.

So, when you say that, “Hey, here’s an opportunity to be unforgettable,” I’m thinking, “Well, wow, we’re really raising the bar here associated with what is a common practice.” So, part of it is just defining terms. So, I know with that, “What does editorial team mean?” Okay, I can really visualize that in terms of what that look, sounds, feels like in your daily practice. Are there any other particular principles or pointers that you would suggest when sharing your unique and powerful introduction?

Lorraine Lee
There’s definitely an opportunity to use more of, like, a mission or vision statement for yourself. So not just job title. But, for example, like when I meet people now, like I might say something like, “Oh, I’m super passionate about helping rising leaders and ambitious professionals go from overlooked to unforgettable.”

So, I’m sort of, I’m stating the problem I solve. I’m not even mentioning my job title. And someone might say, “Oh, like how interesting. Tell me more. Like, how do you do that?” “Well, I speak, I teach, etc.” So, it gives you kind of an opening there. There’s also an opportunity to mention something personal about yourself.

So, I’ve definitely been on calls where someone’s sharing their title, the company, “Oh, and I have three dogs and in my spare time, I really love to bake.” “Oh, great. Okay. Some personal information. Now I kind of get to know you a little bit more on a less surface level and maybe we have a hobby in common that I just learned about, or at least I can, you know, turn to you, ask you for more about that later.”

So, there’s a lot of different ways that you can approach it. There’s no sort of cookie-cutter template to use. And I think that’s the beauty of it is that you might have one UPI for a networking event, you might have a different UPI in a team meeting, and you might have a different UPI on a client call.

Pete Mockaitis
And what you just did there is it sounds like you have thoughtfully crafted and practiced, or at least experienced saying it many times, what you just said there, as opposed to, “Hey, so tell me about yourself, or what do you do?” Like, this doesn’t just pop into your head and out of your mouth impromptu willy-nilly.

Lorraine Lee
Think about where you are, what would make sense given the people who are there. Practice, like you said, because sometimes when it’s, you know, you’re not just saying your name and the company you work for, it’s a little bit.

Unusual, so it might take a little bit practice. And then you can also, again, like leverage your manager, your friends, your family, like, “Hey, here’s how I’m planning on introducing myself. What do you think?” So, again, like I’m so big on feedback. And so, if you’re not really sure like, “Oh, is this too long? Is this the right information to include?” bounce the ideas around.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, can we have some more demonstrations?

Lorraine Lee
Okay. So, one might be, like, I’m on the engineering team, and I work on, or so some people might say like, “Oh, I’m an engineer,” at whatever company you work at. Okay, well, there’s lots of engineers who work on a lot of different products. So, “I’m an engineer working on the homepage,” is already more information, right? And, “You can turn to me anytime you have a feature request or you see a bug, like, I’m the person to go to.”

“Okay, great. Now I know what to go to you for. And now I also,” again, like that added credibility, “Like, you’re not just like any engineer at the company. You are working on this. You are the lead of the project,” for example. So that might be one.

But there are other folks, too, who are like, instead of just saying like, “I’m in customer service,” “I make sure that our customers remain satisfied, and I cut down whatever complaints by like 20%,” whatever it is. You can add a metric in there, for example. But explaining what you do without saying the exact title, I think, is another nice approach, where it’s just a little bit more conversational as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it seems like some of the ingredients here are, it’s not just title or department. We have the specificity necessary to be able to really visualize what’s up, what’s going on. You might throw in a result. You might throw in what you’re personally passionate about. There might be a metaphor.

Any thoughts for how short is too short and how long is too long?

Lorraine Lee
I would say a few sentences is good, no more than a few sentences. I think you don’t want to, you can kind of feel it, right, if you’re just like still talking, and you’re like, “I’ve been kind of explaining about what I do for a while.” Like, you want to have some back and forth. So, you want to just give them enough where you create some intrigue, and then that creates some conversation. Like, they want to ask, “Oh, tell me more,” or, “Oh, that’s super helpful to know. Like, here’s what I do.”

And so, I think, again, like depending on the context, I think networking events, you can be a little bit more mysterious or kind of present the problem that you solve. It’s a little bit different maybe at a company where you might want to just describe more what exactly it is that you do on a daily basis. But, yeah, I think, you know, trust your gut.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. But, yeah, and that’s how you learn whether or not it’s resonant or off-putting, and how you have different versions for different audiences, so that’s really handy. Can you tell us, in the world of a virtual presence, are there any top do’s or don’ts you’d highlight for folks?

Lorraine Lee
Yes, so many. I will start off talking about the TEA method. So that stands for tech energy and aesthetics. You can tell, Pete, I like a lot of acronyms. So, TEA stands for tech, energy, and aesthetics, and those are the three things that you need to think about before you jump on a call. And I came up with that because I feel like virtual presence, video presence, can sometimes feel very overwhelming.

Like, there’s a lot of things you can do and there’s a lot of things we see, like we see like podcasters with fancy backgrounds and mood lighting and all this and that, but we don’t really need that in order to make an impression, to stand out, to create a strong presence. And so, with tech, you’re going to want a good microphone, a good webcam, maybe some software to help enhance the sound, whatever it is.

Energy, you’re going to want to make sure that you are having energy on the call, communicating in such a way that allows you to develop and build relationships. And then aesthetics, you want to make sure that you look good on camera, too. And so that includes things like your framing, your lighting, and going back to energy, like body language is also an important one, I forgot to mention.

But there’s a lot of different things that go into those categories, but focus on those three, get the basics down and you will be off to a really good start, better than most people. Even after all these years remote, you would think everyone has it figured out, but that’s not the case.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are nice. And maybe if we could hear perhaps a couple of sub-bullets there. With regard to tech, any do’s or don’ts? Like, you see all the time, like, is the lighting bad? Or is microphone troubling? Or what would you zoom in on as some very common things that need corrected?

Lorraine Lee
Sure. The first one, I would say, if you have to get anything new that you don’t already have, microphone is probably the most important because if someone has bad video, if you can hear them, you can still be engaged. If you can’t hear them and someone just, it’s just chopping in and out, I’m sure we’ve all been on those calls, it’s so frustrating. You’re like, “I can’t, I’m sorry. We have to reschedule this.”

So having a microphone because our microphones in our laptops are not great. That’s key. And then I think, with your webcam, or having a webcam in the first place, I think is also really important because I still see this. A lot of people will have their monitor here and their laptop camera here, and so they’re looking at their monitor and they’re not making eye contact. And eye contact is a key part to aesthetics, making sure we look good and also energy, too, making sure we’re connecting.

And so, that’s another one that I see a lot of that people are sort of defaulting to the monitor, but they don’t have a camera there. And it’s just not a very good experience for the person on the other side. It’s really hard to stay connected that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you there. And, well, I’ll restrain myself from just rattling off tons of things because I love this. But, if I may, I’ve got a fun little tidbit called Elgato Prompter, which means that I am able to look at you and the camera at the same time, which is so fun for me and people. They’re like, “It looks like you’re looking right at me. How is that even possible?” So, that’s just really fun.

And then with regard to the choppiness, that’s usually a matter of internet reliability, connectivity, bandwidth. And talk about assumptions, I assumed everybody in the world use Speedtest.net on a daily basis. They don’t. So, that’s just a PSA there.

You’ve got a tip for how to avoid a “resting business face” on calls. First of all, what is this phenomenon of resting business face? Why do I want to avoid it? And how do I do so?

Lorraine Lee
So, RBF is a play on the other RBF. And, basically, when we’re on video, I mean, most of us are at home or in some sort of relaxed environment. And it’s so easy to forget what our expression looks like when we are passive listening to someone else. And so many of us do, because we’re relaxed, right? We’re just like kind of at home, just leaning back in our chair, like furrowing our eyebrows, or whatever it is that we’re doing.

And even if you have, yeah, like, a neutral expression on your face, like we want to look like we’re engaged. We don’t want to look like we’re not wanting to be there. And so, to be aware of your facial expressions is key. And so, I know it’s super obvious advice, but it goes a long way. Smiling, you know, get on a call, smile, look like you’re happy to be there with the person. Look like you’re engaged and wanting to chat. Like, small things like that go a long way.

And then adding your body language, your hand gestures, things like that like it’s going to feel, make it feel more like an in-person conversation. It’s going to be easier for all of us to stay engaged. And then also, break free from the RBF, because I feel like the RBF happens when we’re relaxed and just not really thinking about how we’re coming across.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. And I had a tip from a high school teacher, and he said, “You know how you can instantly look 10 IQ points smarter? Close your mouth.” So, your resting face might very well be a little bit mouth open just cause maybe they’re walking through a document, and you are kind of reading it, too. So, like close your mouth. And it does take some extra energy and attention, which can be hard to sustain all day long. So maybe pick and choose your battles.

Lorraine Lee
Yeah, pick and choose. And then I think turning off self-view helps a lot. That’s when you keep it on, it’s just like a mirror up to your face all day. That’s where video fatigue comes from. It’s just, like, I’m looking at myself. I’m examining myself, “You know, Pete says something funny,” I’m like, “Ooh, looking at myself. How do I look when I laugh?” Like, just making all these observations, it’s exhausting.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. I’m reminded of, tell me what you think about this. I’ve had times in my life where a friend is speaking or presenting, and I just know that they’re nervous. And so, I’m thinking, “I’m going to try to be, with my face and body, the most kind, friendly, loving, supportive audience member in the world that I would love to have in my audience, and do that for them.”

And it takes some real energy, but it does, it feels, it feels good. Like, I’m putting some love out into the world. And I got to imagine, over hundreds of meetings, this practice will go leaps and bounds towards boosting your likeability.

Lorraine Lee
Oh, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
“Whenever I’m talking, this guy seems into it. I like that.”

Lorraine Lee
Yeah. Oh, my gosh, me as a presenter, whenever I see that in person, virtually, I’m just like, “Thank you. Like, so kind. It helps me, gives me a boost of confidence.” It’s like, “Okay, I know you’re with me.” Like you said, just that one person who’s smiling at you makes a huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, any other top things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Lorraine Lee
Well, I’ll touch on the lighting and the aesthetics, the A. Lighting, super easy to fix. A lot of people don’t do it for whatever reason. So, adding an extra light in your space, I think, goes a long way. You look younger, fresher, brighter, like all these good things. And, yeah, it doesn’t take much. So, we don’t want witness protection program vibes. Like, we don’t want the light behind us. That’s a big no-no. And a lot of people still have, like, the windows behind them, that makes them look backlit. So, avoid that if you can.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m all about flipping it so the windows are illuminating the face. And you get to look outside, which just feels good.

Lorraine Lee
Yeah, that’s the best. That’s the best.

Pete Mockaitis
So, when you say grab a light so that we can orient towards the window, that’s great. I’m shilling for Elgato today, but I’ve got the Elgato Key Lights, which I think are snazzy. But is it just like any lamp will do? Or what do you mean by grab a light?

Lorraine Lee
I would say it depends on how much light you need. You can start off with a ring light, 12 inches to 16 inches in diameter so you get enough light. Some people with glasses, I know like the ring light shows in that, so maybe a Softbox makes more sense. I’m in a den right now with, unfortunately, no natural light so I actually ended up buying LED lights because those were extra powerful. So, those have been good.

Whatever light you buy, remember to get lights with different temperature settings because sometimes light might creep in from the side, maybe it’s the makeup I have, the clothes I’m wearing, the color just changes a little bit. So, when you can have those different settings, you can adjust and just have more control over how you appear.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Lorraine Lee
One phrase that I have really operated by during my career that really resonated with me the first time I heard it was to, “Over prepare, but don’t over plan.”

So, it’s good to have a general sense of where you want to go, but really what’s more important is to prepare for whatever’s going to come your way. So, make sure that you’re networking consistently, make sure that you are building up your skills and, yeah, all that stuff is very important.

And then stay open because, when you are too rigid about what you want for your future, it can really close you off to new and exciting things. And so over prepare, but don’t over plan.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Lorraine Lee
Okay, I will reference the famous Xerox study, and I also talk about this in my book. It was very interesting. It showed how powerful the word because is, and how much it can influence people’s actions. And they did this study where a few people were waiting in line, and someone asked, “Can I skip the line? Can I make a copy?” And not that many people, I don’t remember the exact percentage, not that many people let that person skip.

But then when that person says, “Oh, I want to make a few copies because…” you know, whatever the reason is, almost 100% of people let them skip the line. And then they did it again, and they said, “Oh, I want to skip the line because I have to make copies,” which is like, you know, that’s not like a really compelling reason. Like, that’s what they’re all in line for, but still almost 100% of people still let that person skip the line.

So, I think when you think about communication and impactful communication, finding things like that, like even just like the addition of that word, an addition of a reason, if you’re trying to get buy-in or trying to get people to take an action, or to let you take an action, little things like that can go a long way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And a favorite book?

Lorraine Lee
All right, fiction series, Harry Potter. And then non-fiction series or non-fiction books, I really like the book by my mentor, Matt Abrams, Stanford GSB professor, Think Faster, Talk Smarter.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Lorraine Lee
I use a lot. I will say going back to the TEA method because we didn’t exactly talk too much about software, I use a software called Krisp, K-R-I-S-P. It helps me eliminate all random sounds that aren’t my voice.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Lorraine Lee
I stretch each night before I wind down to watch TV before sleeping.

Pete Mockaitis
And tell me what benefits does this stretching yield in your life?

Lorraine Lee
I feel better that I’m taking care of myself, and I think it’s good. It’s so hard when we’re just go, go, go to really focus on you, and just the stretch for a few minutes and just have that quiet time for yourself. I feel like that helps me just regroup and like just wind down from the day, you know. It can be easy to just stay like in this heightened go, go, go state, but I think it helps with just calming down, having a good night’s sleep. That’s important.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share, a Lorraine original sound bite, that folks tend to quote to you often?

Lorraine Lee
A lot of people talk about the EPIC career brand. I think they’ve been very excited about that framework from the book. And I think, also, I talk a lot about how introverts have superpowers, and I think a lot of people like to reference that as well.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Lorraine Lee
Definitely, connect with me on LinkedIn, Lorraine K. Lee. And then you can also learn more about my book at UnforgettablePresenceBook.com. And then I have a free newsletter, Career Bites, bite-sized tips to supercharge your career in three minutes or less. You can find that at LorraineKLee.com/subscribe.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Lorraine Lee
Get your virtual set up in order for your virtual interviews. I think it will go a long way in helping you feel more confident and look more professional on camera.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lorraine, thank you.

Lorraine Lee
Thank you so much.

Pete Mockaitis

Could you kick us off with a dramatic tale about the dangers of people-pleasing?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah. Well, I don’t need to make anything up here. And it’s the kind of, like all good dramatic stories, it’s a slow build, where maybe it’s like imagine a character in a movie where they go out and have some drinks, and they really like it, and it just seems like a good time. And then, flash forward many years later, and they have the shakes in their hands because they have to have a drink of alcohol. And that’s actually what niceness is like, or people-pleasing, specifically.

So, you basically make a choice to not be yourself in order to smooth things over or be liked or be accepted. And maybe a classic tale would be you did it when you were young, you did it to fit in at school, you did it to fit in with family. And that was not all horribly off-kilter then. But then I talk to, man, dozens of people every week, where now they’re 37 or they’re 43 and they’ve done pretty good, like inauthenticity and fitting in works. It’s this somewhat adaptive strategy, but it works the way that that drink worked to take away your anxiety, but it doesn’t actually give you what you really want.

I was just speaking with a woman just two days ago, she’s about mid-40s, successful in her career, has a family, has a husband, and feels incredibly lonely, and doesn’t even really know what to change out there anymore because, “I have all the things.” And she’s lonely because no one, not even her husband, really knows her. And that might not sound bad. Some people might hear that and say, “I’ll take the family and the money and the career, and then I’ll be fine.”

But actually, when you get there, and you don’t feel like anything out there is going to change it, and inside you feel profoundly lonely, it’s a story of a lot of suffering. And it’s a story that hundreds of millions of people live out, and feel like they’re the only one, but they’re not.

Pete Mockaitis

So, can you make that all the more real and clear for us? To feel like no one really knows you, what might be some examples of the false impression others on the outside have in contrast to the reality that is within?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Well, the impression people have on the outside is what you learned will keep them close to you, and it might be different. And I call them the roles that you’re going to play. So, at work, you have a certain role that you play, “I need to be confident-sounding, in charge, certain with my partner. I need to be pleasing. So, what do they want me to be? I’ll agree to things that I think that they’ll want me to agree with. I’ll focus on the things that they want. We’ll talk about what they want.”

“I also know that they don’t like it if I’m irritable, or if I’m sad. So, I’m going to downplay that or hide that.” And that’s true for friends as well, “I got to be up. I got to be on. I don’t want to be boring. I don’t want to be a sad sack. I don’t want to bring people down. I don’t want to burden people with my feelings, and my woes, and my problems.” So, therefore, at work, you’re going to be that way. And inside you might feel nervous, you might feel insecure, you might question yourself but you don’t show any of that.

And that, people can tolerate a certain amount of inauthenticity at work. But then where it really starts to get to them is when they can’t even be themselves around their friends, their loved ones, their family. You got to hide it and pressure yourself, and so you can’t reveal that you’re feeling sad. You can’t reveal that you feel like something is missing. You can’t reveal any of these things. And that’s where the loneliness comes from for people.

And it might not be these big dramatic things, like, “I can’t reveal that I’ve secretly wanted to leave.” Even just, “I am feeling sad today,” and it’s so simple but it’s a world of difference when you have to keep it all inside, all hidden. And sometimes people, really good pleasers, and I know this because I lived this for many years, you’ll even hide it from yourself, “I’m not sad. Everything’s okay. I just have a stomach ache. I just am tired.”

And it becomes this vague thing that you don’t even know. You don’t even know where you are in all of it because then it’s scary to know what that is and maybe share it with others.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, this loneliness, what are the knock-on, follow-on consequences of that?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

There’s a variety of different studies around loneliness, but loneliness is pretty much associated with all negative health outcomes and a much shorter lifespan. That’s like the big hammer, right?

Pete Mockaitis

Yup, dying.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

And quality of life, but sometimes people hear that, and like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s about everything in life. Too much peanut butter kills you. You got to live.” But actually, not only is it a shorter life, but let’s just talk about the quality of life. And there’s the longest study in the history of human psychology, it’s decades. It’s been going so many decades that they’re now the second generation of people.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, Waldinger.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

This is the one done with Harvard students, yeah. And the short version is, it’s relationships. That’s what makes us feel good in life, that’s what makes us feel happy in life, that’s what protects us from hard times in life. And not just you got somebody in your house that’s your roommate. No, we’re talking about confidantes, real relationships, people where you’re in life together.

And so, the loneliness, the cost is you don’t have that, or you have a very limited amount of that, and that is the biggest determiner of true success, which, for everybody, I don’t care what they value in life. True success for everybody is actually to feel rich inside, like feel full of success, of love, of meaning, of resources. And so, you can have external success and feel empty inside, and not have the thing that we all really want, which is those real connections with people.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

But other than that, it’s great that we should just keep doing it.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, can you give us a ray of hope then, an inspiring tale of a people-pleaser reformed?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, the ray of hope is people-pleasing is not who you are. It’s a pattern that you run. And that’s fantastic news because any pattern that you run you can change. It’s an active process, it’s a verb, like walking or eating. And so, you can put down the fork and no longer be eating. You can put down the people-pleasing pattern and no longer be pleasing. And you can still be very loved by more people than you could ever need to be loved by. And you could be more boldly yourself and actually enjoy who you are and stop trying to be somebody that you’re supposed to be for others.

And I think this is the biggest risk, this is the leap of faith, and that’s why I think people who read my books or work with me because there’s some part of them that says, “That sounds a little too good to be true. You’re saying I can be me, and have love, and belonging?” And the good news, the ray of hope is absolutely yes, and it’s on the other side of that risk, the other side of what we fear, which is, “If I’m really me, everything is going to fall apart, and no one’s going to love me.” But that’s the whole source of the problem to begin with.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, warm, loving relationships, longer life, higher quality of life, that sounds swell. And then your organization is called the Center for Social Confidence. Tell us about what that confidence picture looks like on the other side of the people-pleasing.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes. Well, there is the outer layer, which I think we all may be focused on at first, which is, “I want to be more confident.” What does that mean? Well, that means I can be more bold, I can walk up to people and talk to them, I can initiate conversations, I can network with people, I can just walk into a room and not feel afraid of what people are going to think, I can really just be myself. That means more power in leadership, and influence, and impact.

You can share your idea more directly, more broadly. You can advocate for something. You can advocate for yourself, for your ideas, for your team. Also, that shows up in relationships and love. You can go approach someone that you really are drawn to, who you really want to spend your time and your life with, and you can let them actually see and know the real you. So, those are the outer observable effects.

And then the inner effect as a result of that confidence is that you feel like you belong in this world, and that sense of insufficiency, not enough-ness, and all the scarcity, there’s not going to be enough love, there’s not going to be enough people, like, that dissolves. And that is worth way more than all the promotions, and all the dates, and all the stuff but sometimes we have to start with that outer stuff, and then realize, like, “Wow, me just really feeling that peace inside, that is worth its weight in gold.”

Pete Mockaitis

Well, that does sound absolutely delightful, yes. So, lay it on us, how do we pull this off? I imagine it’s easier said than done.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura
Yes. So, the good news and the bad news. The good news is this is all possible, the ray of hope stuff we were just talking about. The bad news is you probably are going to feel like you’re going to die on the way there. That’s all. But it just feels that way because, let’s rewind, what is people-pleasing? People-pleasing is a survival strategy that you picked up that’s based upon an idea, a conclusion, that’s not even true. But the conclusion you came to is, “I’m not okay as I am. There’s something just me as I am being totally lovable, I don’t buy it.”

Maybe someone told you that. Maybe you interpreted that. Maybe someone wasn’t there for you. Maybe you were abused. I don’t know, but there is some messaging that you picked up, and you’re like, “Wow, just me being me is not enough, and so now I have to do something. And what I need to do is I need to observe you, and if I can keep you happy, then you’ll probably stick with me. And I got to observe if you’re upset, and make sure that I don’t do the things that upset you. I got to see what makes you smile, and make sure I do more of those.” And now a pleaser is born.

And so, it’s rooted in fear, in the fear of abandonment, fear or not surviving, “Because I’ll be left, I’ll be lost. So, now I’m going to live that out for much of my childhood but as a personality, as a whole life strategy.” And so, why it feels like you might die is because it triggers this kind of fight-flight survival response inside to challenge you, which is why most people don’t.

But if you get up to that, like, fed-up point enough, and you’re like, “Well, I don’t want to keep living this way. All right, let’s take the leap,” you don’t stay in dying forever. You don’t actually die but it feels very ungrounding because there’s a sense of certainty and familiarity in that way of being, and you are going to challenge that. That’s why most people don’t just say, “Oh, I’ll do it,” and then actually execute on it.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, so then what does the execution look like in practice? What are the step-by-steps? Do I just go give people a piece of my mind, Dr. Aziz, “Let me tell you what I really think”?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

So, I have two books on the subject. One is called Not Nice and the newer one that just came out is called Less Nice, More You. And I talk about the pendulum, where people who have been overly passive and pleasing at some point can swing, “Now, I’m going to let the world have it,” and that’s okay.

Maybe that’s a phase to go through but, ultimately, there is a set point that’s much more effective. And I think the key steps from a higher level are these. Number one, you have to decide that you no longer want to be so people-pleasing and nice. And that might seem like a strange step, but it’s like, “Isn’t that what we’re talking about?” Well, no, because many people have a lot of their identities wrapped in, “But being nice means I’m a good person, and I don’t want to be a bad person.” No one wants to be a bad person.

And so, the first thing we need to do is we need to upgrade our understanding of being people-pleasing is not the same thing as being kind, or generous, or loving, or whatever it is that you actually value as a human. And that people-pleasing is more of a compulsion and not a choice, and so you have to be giving, you cannot say no, and that can be very detrimental.

So, someone is struggling, you take an extra hour to support them seems kind, right? The nice person and the people-pleaser doesn’t have that choice, so they could be being eaten up inside. They’re all stressed.

Pete Mockaitis

Eaten up inside and bitter, they’re like, “This jerk is always hogging my life.”

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

“I got too much on my to-do list.” So, now you’re talking about resentment. So, the compulsion part of it, the “nice” person feels like they have to. And any time we feel like we have to do something, and we don’t want to in that moment, that’s a formula, a human formula for resentment. So, now we’re going to start that.

Now, the kind choice is like, “Okay, this person wants this. Do I want to give it? Does it feel right to give it?” And it doesn’t mean it’s comfortable. Your kid is sick or something is happening, and you’re just like, “You know what, but it feels right, it feels like I want to do it.” Then you do it, and you say, “I want to give it.” Then we won’t feel resentment.

Kindness, true kindness leaves a glow inside, you’re like, “I feel good about that.” Whereas, when we’re like, “I couldn’t say no. I mean, look at them, they need me.” And the nice person likes to create this elaborate world in which everybody is super dependent, like, “They would die without me. They would be, oh, my gosh, if I left this partner, or this boyfriend, girlfriend, they’d be devastated for years,” and they don’t even see how it’s a little bit of a…it’s a way that we’re trying to get some sense of significance, perhaps.

The truth is that people have many ways to meet their needs, and you’re just one of them, and you’re not the only one. So, yes, that’s exactly what you’re talking about. That’s the stew of resentment that can form. And so, back to this first step of, “I need to decide I’m not going to be so nice and pleasing” is actually an important first step because, otherwise, we remain in this pattern where this is the only way to be, this is the right way to be as a good person, everything else is bad. And then we will perpetuate that indefinitely.

Pete Mockaitis

And that decision, boy, it just seems like the distinctions and the commitments are so myriad in terms of the boundaries that we’re down with, in terms of “I am committed to doing this and being generous or loving in these domains. And I’m not so much down to do these other things.” It really kind of feels like we got to go, behavior by behavior, or relationship by relationship, when  we determine what that decision really means in practice.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura
Yeah, that’s a great point. And, yes, it is, and there’s a shortcut to doing that, which is it can be distilled into one question, which is an extremely liberating question but it also, if you’ve been living a people-pleasing life, can make you very uncomfortable. And the question is, “What do I want? In this situation, what do I want?”

And even just asking that can push a lot of the buttons for someone who thinks that that’s selfish, “Your life shouldn’t be about what you want. That’s the problem with the world, is too many selfish people.” But actually, we’re just talking about asking the question. You might still choose to say, “Well, what do I want? I want to not take care of my son.” “Well, he’s five and he needs someone tonight. So, you’re going to find a way to work with it.”

So, it doesn’t mean you instantly just, “I do whatever I want. I don’t even care about anyone.” It’s like, no, but you start that behind that question is not just the data of the answer. It’s actually caring about yourself just like you would with someone you love, “What do you want, honey? It doesn’t mean you get everything you want, but I want to know. I want to know. Maybe we can work with it. Maybe we need to compromise here. But what do you really want? And what do I really want?”

I was just talking with a friend earlier today, and he has some friends visiting out of town, they said, “Hey, we want to come have some dinner with you.” And he’s like, “Oh, that sounds good.” And then they’re like, “Oh, also, we’re flying out somewhere the next day. Can we spend the night at your place then we’ll go to the airport?” And he said, “Well, let me talk to my wife and we’ll make sure.”

So, he’s about to go talk to his wife, and he’s like, “Hold on a second. Before I even talk to my wife, what do I want here?” And that’s such so small, we could just steamroll right over the moment and go on with our lives, and that might seem so trivial but, man, you add up those trivial moments, that’s your whole day, that’s your whole week, that’s your whole life.

And you might say, “Well, that’s horrible. How could you not have your friends stay the night? They need a favor. What a bad friend.” Ah, now we’re looking at the roles of the rule of friend, and many people have extreme rules, “You must always say yes to a friend.” But instead, if you tune in and say, “You know what, it feels kind of, I don’t know, confining.” And he got curious about himself, “Why? Well, I was just hoping to have the one evening a week that I can spend with my wife, one on one. She’s so busy. I’m so busy. I just don’t really want to give that up.”

So, now all of a sudden, we discover that the saying no there is actually a loving act for himself, for his wife, for his relationship, so we’re prioritizing something else. We would not even discover that. Now he’s trying to please his friends, so he says, “Yes,” and then he’s feeling maybe his wife is going to be upset with him, so he’s trying to please her. And then the whole evening, he’s just anxious and secretly resentful, which is a disaster.

So, yes, we want to go, day by day, decision by decision, slow down and start to really ask, “What do I want here?”

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. And what’s interesting is by surfacing that, and if you do make the choice, and maybe, well, one, I think that can generate kinds of creative options that you didn’t even think about to start with, it’s like, “Hey, you can come over between 9:30 and 10:00 p.m. and, yeah, it’ll get you to the airport on time.” And so, there it is. So, you had your cake and eat it, too.

Now, sometimes you can’t but then I guess if you do choose to make a sacrifice on behalf of another, I think you can do so all the more eyes wide open, it’s like, “I am choosing to do something for this other person, knowing it’s inconvenient for me, but because I value this relationship more than I value binging Netflix, or whatever I was in the mood to do that evening.”

And then, as you said, there is sort of a glow. You can feel good about that choice. You made a values-driven decision and chose that which is good in your value system above that which is expedient, and you did so, knowing full well the consequences that could flow from it.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, I love that nuance. And sometimes people hear this, and they think you’re going to become this very stingy person, not just with money but with your time. And that’s actually not the case. It is very much more intentional and you’re linking it with your values. My younger son, who’s eight, we eat a pretty similar breakfast every morning. And one of the ingredients is from downstairs, and he doesn’t like to go downstairs because he’s afraid of whatever, monsters. That’s what lives when you’re eight years old, that’s what lives downstairs in the basement, is monsters.

And so, there was this time when we were trying to help him face his fear, but that one was just so kind of just an uphill battle, and I was like, “You know what, as a loving act, I’m really okay just going downstairs to get the thing. I’ll help him fight his fears in other places, and he doesn’t need to tackle every fear because his dad freaking is obsessed with confidence.”

So, I just decided that, and it’s this kind of sweet act of generosity. He’s not going to be eight years old forever. And when he’s a big hulking teenager and could care less about going anywhere in the house, then that’ll be a sweet memory.

And so, you can actually be really loving and generous in all these different ways. It’s just not coming from this pressure that you have to or else. I think that’s the biggest freedom.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, walk us through the next steps.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

All right. So, you’ve decided, “I don’t want to be nice,” and then you start to ask yourself, “What do I want?” Then the next step is going to be you do the things that are “not nice.” And that might be saying to your friends, “Hey, I’d love to see you. You guys can come. We’ll get some dinner. It’ll be awesome. And then you’re going to be staying near the airport or something. I want to have the evening to myself with my wife. It’s our one night and I really want to preserve that.” And it’s, “Oh, my gosh, so you’re saying no in that situation.”

Yeah, another not nice thing might be to inconvenience someone by asking them for something, “Can you help me with this?” or, “Can you do that?” There’s disagreeing with somebody, “Ooh, that’s real unpleasing of you.” So, maybe you have a different opinion, it’s relevant to something in business, a decision, whereby it feels high stakes and it’s important to share it.

It might even be just a different idea or preference that doesn’t even seem that important to share but you just share it instead of smiling, and saying, “Oh, yeah, me, too. Me, too.” You’re like, “Yeah, I actually like the person that you seem to dislike. Hmm, that’s interesting.” So, whatever it is, it’s just a small smattering of the potential behaviors of you being more you, more authentic, more real, more bold.

That’s all the “not nice” behaviors. And every single one of those is going to produce probably some level of anxiety at first because that’s me being testing out what could happen, which is going to be some sort of calamity, “If there’s conflict, the relationship is over. If I say no, the person is going to never do anything for me ever again. If I ask for what I want, they’re going to hate me.”

So, we have these dramatic predictions, and we test them out. And it’s a form of exposure, really, like behavioral training where we need to do the steps, which tends to bring about the discomfort. And then there is another step about working with that, but I’ll pause there to see if there’s anything you wanted to ask about this step.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. That’s good. And what’s funny, though, is the asking for help, we think that’s not nice or imposing or burden, yadda, yadda, but, in reality, when I’m asked for help, I often am delighted to be trusted, relied upon, to be confided in on the matter, and I really like it. And I guess not all the time. Some things are like, “I really don’t want to do that.”

But I think that’s interesting that sometimes these not-nice behaviors are, in fact, what people really value. Maybe some people don’t get people who disagree or challenge them enough.

So, it’s interesting what we think might be not nice could, in fact, be just what the doctor ordered on the other side of the table.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, and that highlights something really important, which is this strategy of people-pleasing is not a very well thought out effective model of human relations. It’s like, “This is the best predictors and most intelligent, socially intelligent model I can…” No, it’s a cautionary model. It’s, “Hey, any of those things might be a problem so don’t do any of them. That person might respond well to that but they might not, so just, no, don’t.” So, it’s not a very sophisticated or intelligent interpersonal model. It’s just safety-oriented.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, thank you. You got some more steps?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes. So, after you spoke up, you did the thing, and you’re freaking out inside, then it’s time to do the work, which is to upgrade something inside of yourself. That’s where the real transformation is going to occur. People think the real transformation comes from the action, which is part of it, but then we have to upgrade, otherwise we just keep beating our head against the wall. And you can leave that situation, you say, “Oh, I feel so guilty I told them no. I’m so bad.”

If you just grind yourself through that meat grinder for two days, and then you come out of it, you haven’t probably really learned anything. And so, the next time someone asks you for something, and you think, “I should say no because that’s being less nice,” then you might remember the meat grinder, and you’re like, “I don’t want to do that.” And so, then you probably just go back to the old pattern.

So, to really change, after we say no, and then all that stuff starts to come up, then we get to upgrade our map of relationships. And there’s one that I really love, which is I call your bill of rights, so what you’re allowed to do, and the rules, basically. And so, when you feel really guilty, you can examine it, and say, “Wait a minute, what rule did I break? What did I do that was so bad there?” “Well, you said no to people.” “Okay, so what’s the rule?” “You should never say no.” “Well, to who? My friends?” “Yeah, you should never say no to your friends’ requests.”

“Okay. Wow, that’s a pretty extreme rule. Is that how I’m going to live my life? Are there some downsides to that one?” And then we upgrade with much more healthy, and nuanced, intentionally chosen approaches to life, rules for life. So, for example, you might say, and this is where the bill of rights is, “I have a right to say no to requests.” And that might sound like a simple statement, but if you really start to believe that and live that, that’s a whole different life, not just in terms of the behaviors but how you feel on a daily basis.

I don’t think we can totally upgrade these in a vacuum, where we just sit down with a sheet of paper, and we upgrade our bill of rights, and then we venture forth into the world, and everything is perfect. No, we kind of have to go through this process where we take the action, we feel bad, and then that’s the motivation to say, “Whoa, it’s time for something different.”

But if we do it, and we change, and we upgrade, it’s like a step-by-step. It’s almost like pulling out the faulty coding of the pattern and putting in a new coding, new software, that runs so much better. And it’s the software of more authenticity, more boldness, more actually being you in the world. And it turns out to work a lot better on your system than the nice people-pleasing software.

Pete Mockaitis

And it’s interesting, it seems like those exposures, those reps, really do build up over time when you work through those steps. I suppose I am a people-pleaser myself, and I’ve just sort of gotten clear that I’m disappointing people every day. Like, there are people, maybe this very minute, Dr. Aziz, someone might be unfollowing this podcast or unsubscribing from the Gold Nugget newsletter, which I don’t recommend taking those actions. But, nonetheless, they are taken.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Someone out there. There’s a loose cannon out there.

Pete Mockaitis

By the hundreds, by the thousands, and so this happens. And so, what’s empowering is to just, for me, as I just sit with that, it’s like, “Yeah, I have displeased someone, and that’s okay. I have not sinned, I have not violated my values, I have not been, I don’t know, fill in the blank: selfish, greedy, lazy, any number of things that seems to kind of be at the core of a lot of this, is we have these value judgments associated with what you’re calling rules. It’s, like, “I feel bad, therefore, I must’ve done something bad. So, I’ve done something bad. I’ve broken a rule. What was the rule? Oh, wait, that rule is kind of ridiculous. Huh.”

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yeah, and there’s what I found, and one of the reasons why when I work with people, and the main ways that I work with people, is in a group environment is because we can identify that rule, and think, “That seems kind of intense,” but it has such momentum of history that I find a lot of this is almost like we’ve been running a propaganda campaign inside of ourselves for 20, 30, 40 years.

And when you’ve heard something for 40 years, it doesn’t matter what’s true or not. It’s hard to challenge. I was working with a gentleman in the program, who has had a hard time, even his relationship with his wife, he’s saying, “This is what I’d like to do on a Saturday.” “I don’t know if I want to do that. Here’s what I want,” like basic stuff.

And so, it almost felt like for the first couple of months he’s in the program, he was, “Hey, it’s okay for me to ask for what I want.” And in some part of the lecture, I’m like, “Of course. Of course.” And then he looks, like, around the room, and like, “Is it really okay for us to do that?” And we need to hear that, we need to get reinforced from outside.

And, hopefully, it’s just reinforcing some new beliefs that are just more sane and healthy. And I think that’s really a key thing to come back to, is, “Hey, is the way I’ve been living really serving me? Is it serving others? Is it really? If I’m getting burnt out, and hurting inside, and experiencing all these mind-body issues, and pain, and illnesses, like is this really how it’s supposed to go?” And I would challenge that, I’d say, “We’re not meant to live and help others at the expense of ourselves.” I think there’s really a beautiful, a much more abundant, win-win way of going through life.

Pete Mockaitis

That is beautiful. And I’m wondering if you recommend starting, if it feels scary, starting big or starting small? Like, “Asking my wife what I want to do on a Saturday,” in that example, is it that you recommend that you have, I mean, a small request might be…?

I guess I’m thinking small might be like you can give a lot of advanced notice. Like, let’s say on a Tuesday, you say, “Hey, honey, I think it’d be really fun on Saturday if we got lunch at Jimmy John’s.” Like, “Okay, that’s an inexpensive restaurant. It’s four days notice. It’s lunch, not dinner. It doesn’t seem as big, primetime of a meal.” So, I’m wondering, is your professional advice to start with some of those smaller, non-pleasing moves or requests, or to go for the bigger ones right off the bat?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

I would say both are beneficial and it’s going to be based upon your discomfort tolerance, which, by the way, is akin to a muscle that is worth building, and you will build it by doing this. And so, if one is going to just completely blow you out of the water, because our goal here is sustainable. Think of it like strength training over many months, and so you don’t want to go to the gym and just blow yourself out where you can’t work out for three weeks. So, maybe you do the lighter weight at first, then it’s a little easier, and that’s great.

You start to build momentum, and success builds on success, so you have a couple wins, and you’re like, “Well, that didn’t go so bad, so I think that’s a completely valid approach.” And if you want to go faster, you feel like, “I have been in this cage for so long that I’m just ready to do whatever. I got to get out,” then you might feel excited and exhilarated as you really test the edge quicker. But I don’t think there’s one approach that’s better or worse.

Pete Mockaitis

You say discomfort tolerance is a muscle, when we work that muscle doing exactly this. If people-pleasing is a diagnosis, that is apt for you. Are there any other pro tips you have on building the discomfort tolerance muscle? I’ve been into cold plunges lately, so if you can justify me that I’m not a weirdo, and this is actually super beneficial to all sorts of elements of my life, I’ll receive that, Dr. Aziz. But, is cold plunges one of the activities that increases the discomfort tolerance muscle? Or what are some of the other top prescriptions here?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

As a matter of fact, the cold plunge is.

Pete Mockaitis

Thank you for that.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

It’s actually cold showers for clients that I work with. And I, about six to eight months ago, invested in an actual cold plunge to take my cold to the next level. And there’s a lot of physical health benefits to them but, honestly, the biggest draw for me is that discomfort tolerance. It’s a training, it’s a visceral training to go into the uncomfortable every day, or however often you do it.

And the cool thing about discomfort tolerance is that it actually does generalize. So, if you took a cold shower that morning, and then later in the day, there’s an opportunity, someone at work is sharing an idea, and you have something you want to add to it, and you’re like, “Well, actually, I think this. I don’t know if they would think that that’s disagreeing, or I’m not sure.” And that back-and-forth kind of hesitant energy, when you’re in the cold shower, about to go in the morning, you’re like, “Uh, should I go into it?” you’re like, “Ah, let’s just…all right, here we go.”

And whatever that is, that ability to go into discomfort, and then withstand the discomfort, it translates because the circumstance might be totally different, one seems physical, one seems social, but on a physiological level in your nervous system, discomfort is discomfort. And when you increase your capacity to do it, you can actually transfer it.

And so, yes, physical feats of discomfort, whether it’s a cold plunge, or just going doing, you know, people will take the elevator instead of the stairs when it’s two flights of stairs. There’s just this unconscious addiction to comfort that we’re living in. So, finding ways, I’d say once a day, on purpose, you could go do a wall sit where you sit against a wall with your back against the wall, and your legs, or your thighs are at parallel to the earth. Hold that for 60 seconds and you’ll be quivering.

Is that going to make you ripped? No, but it’s saying, and it’s all about the framing of it. So, right before I go into a cold plunge, I remind myself, “This is going to make me stronger.” So, it’s framing. It’s the same thing with the wall sit. I’m not doing this just to build muscle or something. I’m doing this to say, “Hey, I can do things that are uncomfortable,” and that will exactly translate over.

And then, of course, there’s dozens of opportunities in your interpersonal social life. And how do you find them? You just know. We all have a radar going on all the time, and saying, “Is that going to be comfortable or uncomfortable?” And most of us are using that radar to say, “Well, if it’s uncomfortable, then go the other way.” And what we actually want to do is you don’t have to go crazy with this. It’s all in the dose. You don’t need to go insane on your dose of medicine here, this discomfort medicine. But a daily dose, even if it’s small, will radically accelerate how quickly you can make these changes in your life.

Pete Mockaitis

Cool. All right. Well, could you now share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Well, this one I like, this is Tony Robbins, “The quality of your life is directly proportional to the amount of uncertainty you can comfortably tolerate.”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Ah, favorite has got to be The Boulder Study of Back Pain of 2021. There’s a book called The Way Out by Alan Gordon where they talk about it, but the Boulder Back Pain study was done to compare back pain treatment, treatment as usual, medications, physical therapy, and then also something called pain reprocessing therapy, which is treating the back pain with the mind and emotion, which has been fascinating for me with my own history of back pain and chronic pain, as well as nice-people developing pain.

There’s a whole chapter in the book, why it’s not nice about that. And so, randomized, controlled trial, gold standard evidence that we can use these mind-body approaches to not just reduce but completely transform back pain is revolutionary for the chronic pain world, and something I’m really excited about getting out into the world in a big way.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite book?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

There’s one I’m reading right now that I really enjoy, it’s called Free to Focus by Michael Hyatt, and I’m finding it really refreshing for how to reclaim your focus and your time.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

It’s the best and the worst, it’s the cold plunge.

Pete Mockaitis

And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes, go to DrAziz.com, that’s D-R-A-Z-I-Z.com, and the goal is for there to be a wealth of resources for free. So, there’s a podcast on that page, under the Resources tab. There’s also a mini-course, a video mini-course called “5 Steps to Unleash Your Inner Confidence” also for free. I have a YouTube channel, you can get a link there as well from the Dr. Aziz’s homepage.

So, lots of resources for free. And then if you want to take things further, we have some training courses, and I also work with people in a 12-month life changing yearlong program. So, however far you want to go, I’d love to support you. And if you just want to start with the free stuff or get a book, that’s a beautiful way to really learn that there’s a pathway. There’s a proven pathway out of this stuff, and I’m here to help as many of us as we can to get across that.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Yes. Whatever is going to make you the most awesome at your job is also the thing that’s probably either scary or uncomfortable. It’s, like, really practicing that boldness and facing what we fear will not only produce just beautiful results in your career but will also make you feel good at your work, you’ll feel way more engaged.

Pete Mockaitis

Beautiful. Dr. Aziz, this has been a treat. I wish you much fun and minimal people-pleasing.

Dr. Aziz Gazipura

Thank you, Pete. What a fun and interesting and dynamic interview. Really appreciate it.