139: Dealing with “Schmucks” in Your Office with Dr. Jody Foster

Pete Mockaitis
Jody, thanks so much for being here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Jody Foster
Thank you so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think we’re going to have so much fun digging into some of these items here about schmucks and more. But, first, I’ve got to ask, and even though I’m sorry, you’ve maybe been asked more times than you’d like. You share the name, but not the spelling, with actress Jodie Foster. How’s that shown up in your life?

Jody Foster
I do. I do. And interestingly no one has brought it up yet, so congratulations to you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, they all were afraid.

Jody Foster
How has it shown up? Well, she’s probably, I think maybe, just a year or two older than I am, and you may know she was the Coppertone baby so this is sort of haunted me my whole life. But I would say, largely, in a good way. If I had to share a name with someone famous, at least it’s someone who’s famous and pretty cool. I can also tell you that as a relatively non-descriptive individual having the name Jody Foster has definitely helped me out.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, in terms of like you’re just memorable, like, “Oh, of course, Jody Foster. I know her.”

Jody Foster
Right. “Oh, I met Jodie Foster today. Ha, ha, ha.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, publicity is good, so hopefully it’ll serve you well with the book launch and that stuff. I guess I’m curious if anyone has ever sort of tried to contact you assuming that you were actress Jodie Foster and like you had sort of a mix-up or anything, or had you been clear of those?

Jody Foster
Well, what I can tell you is that there certainly had been occasions in my life where I’ve appeared somewhere and there’s mass disappointment that it was me, but that’s okay. That’s just sort of fit into the general self-esteem picture, so that’s good.

But I will tell you a funny story. I did once go to a small town in upstate New York and everyone was excited because it was their first annual film festival, and even as I checked in as Jody Foster they told me that Jodie Foster was coming to the film festival. And I said, “Oh, how funny. I’m finally going to meet Jodie Foster.”

So I spent the week sort of expecting to bump into Jodie Foster in this little town only to learn that at the end of the day it was me. I was chasing my own tail.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, man. You can make a film about that, that’d be pretty good right there.

Jody Foster
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’m glad to have you. I’m in no way disappointed. I would prefer to be chatting with you as the Jody Foster of the two.

Jody Foster
Well, thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Given what we’re up to here today. And so, could maybe orient us. First of all, you’ve got a background in psychiatry as well as business. How does that kind of come together in your head as you’re thinking about people and workplaces?

Jody Foster
Having a business degree has only been helpful in that I’ve always had more the business head than the average physician. But getting an MBA gives you the language of business so that you can communicate in that business-speak, and that’s been incredibly helpful and has led to, for me, movement into more management and administrative positions over the years. So I’ve definitely leveraged it.

Pete Mockaitis
It sound as though those synergies are quite impactful.

Jody Foster
Oh, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. So, now, let’s talk a little bit about your book here, so, The Schmuck in my Office: How to Deal Effectively with Difficult People at Work. What got you thinking this is a book that needs to be written?

Jody Foster
Well, actually, I didn’t. Somebody called me up and asked me to write it. I’m not really the type of person who would wake up one day and say, “Hey, the world needs to hear my message.” That’s not me. But I had a program that I started at Penn for intervening with disruptive physician behavior and it was so successful here that we began to offer it publicly, and it became pretty successful publicly and move out of physicians into other industries.

And, eventually, my alma mater, Wharton, asked to do an alumni interview about the program. And within about a week after it was published I got a cold call from a publicity agent at William Morris asking me to write a book, and that’s how it happened. Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great.

Jody Foster
Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
So, could you give us a little bit of the backstory with this program for disruptive physicians? My wife works in some healthcare things and I’m also sort of intrigued. What were the behaviors you were noticing and the interventions you brought to bear?

Jody Foster
So, disruptive behavior is by no means limited to physicians by any stretch of the imagination, and that’s why the book is of such ubiquitous utility because any time you put a person with another person you have the opportunity for conflict and so there’s really no way to avoid it even if you’re the nicest person in the world.

I’m lucky in that in 2008 The Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals put out a sentinel statement in their journal saying that disruptive physician behavior undermines patient safety and quality, and that it is up to every hospital and health system to figure out a way to intervene with such behavior.

And that dovetailed perfectly with some work that I had been developing as I finished my time at Wharton, which was a consultation package I developed to evaluate management teams for venture capital companies before they invested. That was going okay until the tech bubble burst and then I sort of went back down under, just went back to being a doctor.

And then this Joint Commission mandate came out and I was able to reinvent that package to evaluate physicians who were having trouble at work. And what I found now, after many years of doing this and seeing many, many people who get into trouble in a variety of ways, is that from my experience, people who get into trouble with other people who don’t have an otherwise illness, mental illness or other major issue, fall into 10 basic types.

So, when I sat down to write this book I just categorized those types and how to sort of spot them and what to do about them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, you’ve got me so on the edge of my seat now even though I’m at a standing desk. So, okay, 10 types and, oh, this is tricky because we could probably talk for 10 minutes about each. But could we do about one to one and a half minutes on each of the types? So, what are their names? What do they do? How do we spot them?

Jody Foster
That’s a tall order but I’ll try my best. It’s important, I think, as a backdrop to know that key to these types that I’ve laid out here is that nobody here is sick. These are not diagnoses. These are not illnesses. These are the particular traits that help define some of the characteristics that might cause some people to have some trouble at work.

So, because we’re not talking about psychiatric diagnoses or disorders or anything like that, I renamed these people and the traits that they’re bringing to the table just to sort of zero in and kind of drive home the fact that I’m not saying anyone here is sick.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Jody Foster
And so the types are, I’ll tell you the names, there’s Narcissists, and that’s pretty self-explanatory; there’s the Venus Flytrap which in its most pathological form in psychiatry would be called somebody who has borderline personality dynamics; there’s the Swindler which would be somebody who has sociopathic or criminal tendencies; the Bean-counter would be somebody who has obsessive compulsive tendencies; the Distracted is somebody who sort of can’t get themselves organized or time management, and, again, in its most pathologic form could at the end of the spectrum be potentially diagnosed with some sort of attention-deficit situation, but again I’m not talking about that here.

I call someone with an addiction Mr. Hyde because key to recognizing such a person as they switch from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde, the sort of erratic or sudden switches in behavior. When I referred to the Lost, I’m talking about people who are experiencing cognitive decline at work and everywhere. The Robotic would be the person who, I guess, we would colloquially now say falls on the spectrum but I’m really talking about people who just have trouble with interpersonal nuances and understanding the basics of the interpersonal interaction.

The Eccentric is, bluntly put, just people who are sort of weird and have magical or otherwise strange ideas that might raise an eyebrow. And then the Suspicious is somebody who might have a more paranoid take on the world. So these are the basic 10 types. I can tell you a little bit more about each if you wish.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you.

Jody Foster
I can do whatever you want.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you pulled it off. We had the rundown in a quick fashion, so thank you. And so, while this is interesting, I can see how the psychiatry background plays into it because it sounds like many of these are just sort of, you’re right, it’s not a mental illness but it’s kind of like a, I don’t know, gentle, mild vibe that if it were 10X it would be diagnosable in the case of many of these archetypes. Is that fair to say?

Jody Foster
Yeah, I think another way to say it is that we all have personality traits. If we didn’t all have personality traits we would just be beige. We would be automatons just walking around and not being able to differentiate ourselves from one another. Those personality traits make us who we are and for the most part we hope that they’re great and that they interact well with whatever culture we find ourselves in.

But sometimes these traits rub off against those cultures or certain people and that’s when they cause trouble. So it’s really important to me that people reading this book don’t just go hunting for something to diagnose their friend with. That’s not what this is about.

This is about so when you have somebody in the office who’s incredibly entitled and self-centered and condescending and attention-seeking and constantly inflating his own sense of self-worth and is really getting under your skin and annoying you and taking credit for your work, instead of just getting angry to sort of take a step back and say, “Oh, this sounds like this person is struggling with some issues like a narcissist might.

“And if I’ve read this book correctly, probably if he has to act that way, chances are he doesn’t really feel very good about himself at the end of the day. So what’s a way that I can kind of choose to interact with him that might make the day-to-day interactions with him easier and maybe assuage some of his anxiety about needing to take center stage all the time?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s very helpful. Maybe could you share with us before we go deep on one or two or three of these types, could you share perhaps some universally-applicable kind of tips, tricks, perspectives on dealing with folks who may fall into one of these categories?

Jody Foster
Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
So, across the board, are there some key dos and don’ts that apply to all?

Jody Foster
Yeah, absolutely. I think it’s really important that we accept the fact that people don’t set out to be disruptive. People do not wake up in the morning and say, “You know what, I’m going to go to work today and be a jerk to everyone around me.” That’s just not how it is. So, sort of try to remove that assumption of malice.

Also, recognize that people can often be categorized by themes, and when you categorize them by these themes that their behavior becomes so much analyzable. So, again, I’m not saying we’re all beige and I’m not saying we’re all the same and I’m not saying we all fall neatly into single little silos. But the fact is, is that if we can sort of get our arms around some of the basic dynamics of the traits that somebody brings to the table, we can make some predictive guesses about the behaviors that they’re going to bring to the table and also some of the anxieties that drive them to act that way.

We need to remember that what is disruptive in one culture may be perfectly acceptable in the next. I send my little boy to a Quaker school but I imagine that he would have a different experience in a military school, and either of those cultures are perfectly acceptable but we choose where to place ourselves.

It’s important, then, to lay out the rules of engagement in the workplace because somebody who might be labeled a schmuck or a jerk, in fact, may just not be right for the culture or may not understand that the culture is a certain way when it’s not explicitly described. But I think some of the most important take-home points here that I want people to walk away with is you should call out what you see when you see it or feel it.

Early intervention is absolutely key, and people are very uncomfortable being direct in moments of conflict and that’s, I think, where we go wrong. So I think when something goes wrong, and you feel it and it happened, the best thing to do is to call it out right then and there, be really direct, be concise in your language, don’t dance around it, and kind of get it out there, and be really honest with yourself and with other people when you communicate.

A lot of the interventions for adults are almost embarrassingly similar to the interventions for children. And I think about when my little boy was in pre-K and watching the kids in the playground, and there’d be a conflict and a kid will run up to the teacher and say, “So-and-so did this to me.” And the teacher would turn them right around and say, “Well, go back to Johnny and say, ‘I didn’t like what you just did.’”

And I think as we grow up we forget to do that and it’s really, really important and would really probably get rid of a lot of what goes wrong in our workplace. Also, I think when somebody rubs you the wrong way, or there’s a bad interaction, it’s really important to take a step back. I mean, there’s certain interactions that are unquestionably disruptive.

If you go to work and somebody punches you in the face, that’s pretty clear. But if somebody just does something that’s insidious, or passive-aggressive, or you sort of walk away scratching your head saying, “Did that just happen?” or, “What just happened?” Examine yourself first and why the behavior is affecting you in this particular way because that’s really going to inform, number one, what the problem is, and, number two, your ability to be able to feed it back to the person who enacted it. And a really important, I think, final question is, “Am I the schmuck in my office?”

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Jody Foster
So, if I’m in workplace after workplace after workplace, and I think everyone around me is just ridiculous or awful or an idiot or whatever, then at some point I need to stop and say, “You know what, maybe the problem sits with me.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I love that bit of humility there and just some of the themes you’ve shared in terms of the feedback and the courage have come up again and again with guests and it’s quite on point. So, thank you for those. I guess I’m wondering, just a couple of follow-ups along those lines, if everyone you see in the office you believe is a jerk or a schmuck, you know, the blame lies more so with you, I think that’s a great take-home message.

I guess I’m wondering, if you had to hazard a guess as to a threshold cutoff proportion what would it be? It’s like, “You may very well have 70% schmucks in your culture and it’s not you, it’s them.”

Jody Foster
Well, let’s put it this way. If you have 70% schmucks in your culture and it’s bothering you, then maybe you’re in the wrong culture. And so it may not be that you’re necessarily a schmuck. It just may be that you’re misplaced. And I think it’s really important for people to be able to sit back and say, “You know, everybody I work with annoys me in this particular way, and so maybe I shouldn’t be with this particular crowd.”

Obviously it’s scary to kind of change jobs, change directions, change cultures, but sometimes you’re just misplaced, and I’ve certainly seen that over and over again. People have been mislabeled as bad people, jerks, mean people, and really they just weren’t in the right place for them.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, understood. Thank you. And so now I’m wondering, with regard to bringing up a behavior sort of right away as oppose to letting it fester and such, do you have any guidance associated with should it still be done privately, like is it right away in a conference with multiple people? Or is it right away like immediately afterwards? Or what’s your take there?

Jody Foster
Well, I think the better part of valor is you don’t want to humiliate people, so you don’t want to sort of counter a negative behavior with another negative behavior. Again, if we are working on the premise that people aren’t setting out to be difficult or disruptive, and then we call them out or humiliate them in a public space for something that they just did that they really have no conscious knowledge of then that’s potentially just not nice.

So, I would always advocate doing this in private. Now, if you’ve done it in private 50,000 times and the person just blows you off and you’ve sort of come to the point of realizing that doing it in a different setting is, in fact, the way to go, well, then you have data behind what you’re doing. But I think when I say immediately it doesn’t have to be within seconds. I’m just saying that the title of this book comes from the primary chief complaint that I get when people call me.

They call me, I pick up the phone, they say, “Jody, I should’ve called you about this schmuck 10 years ago. I have this schmuck in my department.” And what happens is people behave in a certain way that causes some trouble, and the manager just sort of wants it to go away. They just hope they’re going to stop doing it, and chances are they’re not going to stop doing it. They may not know they did anything bad in the first place, and so it’s not going to go away.

And then when time passes and you didn’t say something in the first place, it’s even more awkward. And so it’s very common to say, “Well, I’ve been doing this for… I’ve been acting this way since you’ve known me for 25 years. Why are you telling me this now?” And it becomes tough.

Pete Mockaitis
I had been a coward.

Jody Foster
Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you offered some principles there for having a great conversation to those points. Could you maybe make that come to life by sort of envisioning a scenario, maybe that has happened, that you helped coach someone through, or you just sort of imagined to happen, so we get a sense for what is that script or some of those actual words sound like when they come to life in putting these principles to work?

Jody Foster
You’re talking about in terms of calling somebody out when something has happened?

Pete Mockaitis
Exactly.

Jody Foster
I have spent a career working largely on an in-patient, a psychiatric setting with primarily people who have schizophrenia, and they’re bringing often a lot of paranoia and other such symptomatology to the table, and I have learned over the years that there is no substitute for direct, concise, honest, clear communication. And so it really should be very simple. Just as simple as that little kid I described in the playground being sent to say, “I didn’t like that.”

I am just being that concrete. When somebody does something you don’t like, you say, “What you just said was incredibly offensive to me and here’s why.” And I think it’s as simple as that. This is not hard. The hard part is that people don’t want to do it because it makes us uncomfortable.

Pete Mockaitis
And for those who are imagining a schmuck right now and thinking about having that conversation and feeling sort of spooked or uncomfortable, could you share a bit of reassurance or data points or perspective to help get over the hump?

Jody Foster
I really can. Probably the best example of this is in the Venus flytrap character because the intervention with this particular type of character is so counterintuitive and yet so effective that sort of seeing it in action will really make you a believer. It’s a very difficult type of personality to describe. I’m going to try but I call this person the Venus flytrap because these are the people who sort of carry you through cycles of drama such that you feel kind of eaten up and drawn in and then eaten up and spit out.

So, if you think about movies like Fatal Attraction where there’s someone who’s highly seductive and appealing, but then all of a sudden that flips to someone who’s very difficult and it can even get to the point of being dangerous, it becomes really intense. So the Venus flytrap character is actually the kind of person that we suddenly find ourselves accidentally involved with or even married to or things like that.

So, I guess, this is a highly-seductive and appealing character but the underbelly is that they engage in intense and very unstable interpersonal relationships. At their core they feel empty, they feel bored. They’re looking to fill sort of an abysmal void and they’re looking to you to do it. And what happens is there’s a push-pull sort of yo-yo cycle where it begins with overvaluation of you, and that’s the seductive and appealing part, and then it’s sort of flips to an over-devaluation.

And it makes them, sort of the relationships are very sticky and very sort of emotionally pulling and draining, and people feel like they have to walk on eggshells around such people for fear of their reactions, if that makes any sense. I know that’s a lot of information.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. I’m visualizing someone in particular. Go ahead.

Jody Foster
Well, there you go. It’s really because every time I give a lecture about this stuff I don’t get a question about this particular type during the lecture but afterward there’s always somebody waiting in the wings to tell me about this person. I’m thinking about a young man who came up and told me about his girlfriend who he had just moved in with, and now he was afraid that this woman was actually poisoning his dog, and how could he get her out of his house.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, geez.

Jody Foster
Yeah, anyway. So, the thing about this is what it feels like is when you’re in a relationship with this person, and you’re sort of going through these requisite cycles with them, you kind of feel like you’re at the end of a yo-yo string and that you really don’t have any power in doing anything but being pushed and pulled all the time.

But what you’re not realizing is that you are electing to engage and all you really have to do, and again I’m oversimplifying this, but all you really have to do is stop playing the game and sort of get off, dismount from the yo-yo and say, “I can’t do this. This is not acceptable to me. And if you’re going to work in this environment with me, these behaviors that you’re bringing to the table can’t happen here.”

And the thing about that is that that is so counterintuitive to what we are taught socially. I can’t go up to you and say, “Pete, you can’t do this thing. I won’t accept it,” because I’m going to say, “Well, who am I to tell you what to do?” Right? But at the end of the day what’s fascinating about this particular character is that there is some knowledge that they are like testing the boundaries all over the place because they’re looking for the edge, they’re looking for the wall, they’re looking for where the buck stops.

And if you come to them and say, “This is where the buck stops. This is the sandbox that you can play in here, but when you seep outside of it, it doesn’t work here and you can’t work here anymore.” There is such tremendous relief at that point because then the Venus flytrap understands the rules of engagement. She understands that this is where the boundary is. And that definition of boundary and clear reinforcement of boundary is tremendously relieving. And, like I said, totally counterintuitive, but it really works.

The key to working with the flytrap is structure and consistency and not getting pulled into drama and implementing empathic but really firms your tolerance interventions that are directed towards the negative behaviors that he or she might be bringing to the table.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s helpful. So we got the universal principles for how to deal with folks of all types, and then there’s some unique nuances right there in terms of that sentence you probably wouldn’t trot that out with the majority of your colleagues, but the Venus flytrap, “You can’t do that here” is a bull’s-eye.

Jody Foster
Right. Now, you can’t just like randomly run around and say, “You can’t do that here.”

Pete Mockaitis
Sounds like fun.

Jody Foster
And, by the way, again, going back to thinking about behaviors with children, you can’t say, “You can’t do that,” and then when they do it the next time, you say, “Oh, well, just this once.” If you’re going to set a limit with something it’s got to be real otherwise you’re going to lose any leverage that you just got.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. Well, this is so fun. Jody, tell us, is there anything else you want to make sure that we cover off before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Jody Foster
No, I think it’s important to remember, like I said, people aren’t going to fall neatly into… I’ve had a couple of friends who read the draft and said, “I can’t find my schmuck.” And I really don’t think you should pick up the book looking for your particular. And I’ve had some amusing stories where people have said, “Well, I can’t find my schmuck.” “Well, tell me what you’re looking for.”

And the stories have been so unbelievably specific that there is no possible way I could’ve ever had them in the book. But I think it’s important to remember that as you’re reading, if you do have a particular person in mind that’s causing you some trouble, they may not fall into any one category. They may fall into two or even three, but that’s okay because all of the various interventions can be used together.

You just sort of have to keep an eye on the behavior that’s causing you trouble at that moment and use the interventions appropriate for that. And when the next set of problems come up, just go to them. But the thing is trying something is better than trying nothing. Just trying to work it out with people, number one, people appreciate it. Number two, it makes for a better workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent. Thank you. Well so, now, can you share with us a favorite quote?

Jody Foster
So, I told you I had some anxiety about these little questions here because I’m not so great at these. But, in fact, my favorite quote is, “This, too, shall pass.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And how about a favorite study or piece of research?

Jody Foster
I have one piece of research that I really like that I actually have in the book in the Swindler chapter, and there’s a fair amount of it to describe. I don’t want to take too much time. But it has to do with taking people with sociopathic tendencies and trying to put them in a perfect laboratory where they can’t act that way.

And the results of the study were that in that controlled environment these people with these tendencies to always try to play someone or cut a corner or get away with something, actually really improved dramatically. Unfortunately, almost the second they were released back into real society, they slipped right back into the usual behaviors. It was a fascinating but kind of sad study.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is fascinating. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Jody Foster
So, again, this is one of those places where I feel a little weird. My favorite book is called The Great Bridge, and it’s about the building of the Brooklyn Bridge.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool.

Jody Foster
And maybe part of that because I’m from New York City, but it’s a really great book about sort of the mechanics of doing what was the impossible at that time, but also a lot of the kind of conflicts and trials and tribulations that people went through doing it. So I just loved that book.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Jody Foster
Believe it or not, I think my favorite tool at work is being able to take a nap.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love that you said that. I agree. So, how do you pull it off with colleagues? What’s the key?

Jody Foster
Well, in the early part of my career I’ve always worked at different entities in the Penn Health System. In the early part of my career I was able to sort of, I lived in between the various entities. So, between meetings I would come home, get into my pajamas, get in bed, take a half-hour nap, get dressed again and go back to work. And that went on for quite some time, which I can talk about now that it’s over so I won’t get in trouble.

As I got older it’s much less easy to take naps, number one, because of busyness and, number two, just because that’s, I think, what happens when you get older. But I think that when I’m presented with a real problem at work, and I kind of can’t figure it out, I’d wrack my brains, at some point I realize that the best thing I can possibly do is go to sleep and I, inevitably, wake up with a solution.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s wonderful. Thank you. I feel affirmed. I took naps even when I was working at Bain. It made me weird. Is there a name for me? What’s that? I’m eccentric.

Jody Foster
It’s helped.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And so how about is there a particular sort of articulation of your message that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, gets them nod in their heads and taking notes and saying, “Oh, wow, Jody. That’s perfect”?

Jody Foster
I think it’s the same message. When you see something, call it out and be direct.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Jody Foster
And, again, I’m not suggesting that that’s going to work. A lot of people are going to say, “Oh, my God, my boss is such an X, Y, Z and I can’t do that.” And I’m not really asking people to stretch beyond the bounds of what’s truly comfortable for them. I’m really just asking people to really just make a one-degree change. Just stretch themselves just an itty bitty bit past their comfort level and just try it. And, hopefully, as we collect little victories each time we do this it’s going to be easier to do it the next time and then the time after that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Perfect. And what would you say is the best place for folks to learn more or get in touch with you if they want to discover some more here?

Jody Foster
So just launched is SchmuckInMyOffice.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And schmuck is spelled S-C-H…

Jody Foster
S-C-H-M-U-C-K.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be more awesome at their jobs?

Jody Foster
My call to action is just for people to just try to be a little braver and not be afraid of having difficult conversations with each other.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Thank you. Well, this has been such a treat. I wish you tons of luck and enjoy.

Jody Foster
Oh, thank you so much.