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Sep 30
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998: A Crisis Management Expert’s Guide to Leading Well with Dr. Thom Mayer

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The “Master of Disaster” Dr. Thom Mayer shares his most valuable lessons learned from leading during times of major crises.

You’ll Learn

  1. The critical first step to leading well
  2. The recipe for a great workplace culture 
  3. Why to suck down instead of up 

About Thom

Dr. Thom Mayer is the Medical Director for the NFL Players Association, Executive Vice President of Leadership for LogixHealth, Founder of BestPractices, Inc., Speaker for Executive Speakers Bureau, and Clinical Professor of Emergency Medicine at George Washington University and Senior Lecturing Fellow at Duke University.

He is one of the most widely sought speakers on leading in times of crisis, patient experience, hardwiring flow, trauma and emergency care, pediatric emergency care, EMS/disaster medicine, and sports medicine. In sports medicine, his work at the forefront of changing concussion diagnosis and management in the NFL has changed the way in which these athletes are diagnosed and treated. His work in each of these areas has resulted in changing the very fabric of patient care.

In 2022, Dr. Mayer helped lead a mobile team to Ukraine, caring for more than 350 internally displaced persons during the current war and training over 1,700 Ukrainian doctors, nurses, and paramedics. On September 11, 2001, Dr. Mayer served as the Command Physician at the Pentagon Rescue Operation and has served on three Defense Science Board Task Forces, advising the Secretary of Defense.

He has published over 100 peer-reviewed articles, over 200 book chapters, and has edited or written 25 textbooks. His newest book, Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading is Priceless will be released on May 7, 2024 through Berrett-Koehler.

He has won numerous awards, including the ACEP James D. Mills Outstanding Contribution to Emergency Medicine Award in 2018. He has also been named the ACEP Outstanding Speaker of The Year, ACEP’s “Over-the-Top” (three times), and ACHE James Hamilton Award (three books).

Resources Mentioned

Dr. Thom Mayer Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Thom, welcome.

Thom Mayer
Well, it’s good to be here. I’m honored to be among your guests. I really enjoy the work you do.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, we’re honored to have you, the so-called master of disaster. Hopefully, this interview is not a disaster. And to that end, I’d love it if you could kick us off with a riveting tale. Firsthand, you’re in the midst of a crisis, high stakes, life and death situation. Take us into the scene. What went down and what was a key learning that you picked up that’s really influenced some of your work and writings?

Thom Mayer
Well, there could be many of them, but since we’re recording the day after 9/11, I can remember vividly what it was like to go to the Pentagon on 9/11 in 2001. I was summoned there to become the command physician. It was looking at the gates of hell. It looked like a movie scene. Everyone who was there that day felt as I did that, “This can’t be real. How could it be possible that a plane would crash into the Pentagon?” But everyone’s eyes turned to you, because as the command physician, and you wear a bright orange fluorescent vest that identifies you as such, it’s not like you can hide.

And they’ve got eyes on you to figure out, “Doc, is it safe for us to go in the building? Is it safe for us to go in and try to rescue people and to recover those who couldn’t be rescued?” So, it was an honor.

And the next three days were not a blur, as people often see it, but a series of not just snapshots with absolute clarity in terms of what the problems and issues were, but more like a movie on a continuous thread. Eventually, when it was safe, I went into the building with SCBA tanks on our backs and helmets on with the FBI evidence recovery team to survey both the devastation of what had occurred, but also to think about lessons for what that might teach us for the future.

So, most people are sane and run away from the sound of chaos and fire and flames and explosions, but we, I say not just me, but the entire team of 5,000 people were trained and anxious to go in and help. So, we kind of run towards the sounds of chaos.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s quite a turn of phrase, “Run towards the sounds of chaos.” And has that been sort of a recurring theme or lesson or a recommendation you give to leaders and professionals in the midst of them doing their daily work even if it’s lower drama, lower stakes?

Thom Mayer
Yeah, absolutely. And I get this question of, to me that’s an honor and one we should all embrace, and people ask me, “Well, yeah, but, Doc, I don’t get to lead on a national stage, an international stage of crisis, but that’s my point, is all of us lead all day, every day in whatever we do.

So, waiting, I think the word “Someday I’ll be a leader” is a wistful, unhelpful word and phrase. “Today, I am a leader” is a very embraceable phrase and one that everyone, no matter who they are, no matter what they do, certainly you lead when you put this podcast together. But you also lead when you take Joey boy for a walk or calm him down or whatever it is that he needs. As his father, you’re leading him. Just like a single mother leads her family.

So, it strikes me that leading is a truly universal concept and not an aspirational goal. It’s something that we need to listen to, embrace every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Thom, I like that and I resonate with that, and I’m curious if you’ve ever heard pushback. If someone were to say to you, “Oh, Thom, I am the tiniest cog in a grand machine. I have so little influence over…” how do you respond?

Thom Mayer
Well, certainly, I get pushback because, in the book, the title is Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading Is Priceless and that’s contrarian, counterintuitive at a minimum, and if it’s offensive, I don’t mean it to be, but it deserves an explanation. The explanation is leadership is worthless because it’s just what you say, and anybody can say anything. But leading is priceless, precisely, because it’s what you do, and we all do that. So, I do get pushback, “I’m the small cog in a very big wheel,” and my answer is, “But you’re your cog.”

When our boys were younger, Maureen, my beautiful and brilliant wife and I had three boys, now young men, but whenever I was in town, because my job requires a lot of travel, speaking and meetings, things like that, whenever I was in town, I drove them to work in my truck, and when I let them out, I said precisely the same thing, which is, “One more step in the journey of discovering where your deep joy intersects the world’s deep needs.” I swear I said this to them. They prefer to take the bus.

Pete Mockaitis
“Okay, Dad!”

Thom Mayer
Yeah, “Bye-bye. I’ll take the bus today. No, thank you.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Is my lunch here?”

Thom Mayer
Yeah, exactly. But the point is you have to start with your deep joy. Doing this podcast, setting it up, having the guests on that you have is not easy, but it’s your deep joy, and that comes through in every episode I’ve listened to, and I’ve listened to over 10 of them, that comes through. But if you were just showing up and putting the time in, that would show too, and that wouldn’t be your deep joy.

So, when I find people that are not able to embrace the job that they’re doing, it’s usually because they’ve signed up for the wrong job. It’s not where their deep joy intersects the world’s deep needs. And once people understand that and learn that, I think it becomes easier to not aspire to be a leader, but to embrace the fact that you are already a leader, and then to inspire others through what you do and what you say and how you do it.

So, I’m interested in helping people, when they wake up in the morning and their eyes open and they swing their legs around, to say, “Today, I am a leader. How will I lead? How will I exemplify what I believe in, my deep joy, mission, vision, values, true north?” whatever you want to call it, and different of your guests have called it different things, but that’s what needs to be done. And, therefore, the book is not intended as a leadership book. It’s also not an anti-leadership book. It’s simply a book for people who want to embrace the fact that they lead and will continue to lead.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’d love it if you could give us an, maybe, unconventional or striking example of someone who identified their deep joy connecting with the world’s deep need. Because I’m thinking about some folks who are like, “Well, geez, my deep joy is playing this game.” I’m just thinking about my kids.

Thom Mayer

Sure. Sure.

Pete Mockaitis

If I say that to them, “What’s cool?” it’s like, “Well, what I love doing most is playing the snake game on the Apple TV, Dad.” So, that doesn’t really solve a need. But I imagine there’s sort of a process of inquiry and discovery that leads you to discover such intersections. Could you tell us a tale of such a process?

Thom Mayer

I was a football player, and that was my deep joy when I was a kid. And when say kid, all the way through high school and college. I wanted to play in the National Football League. And most people play football in order to go to college so that they can get a scholarship and not have to pay for their education. I was exactly the opposite. I went to college to play football because I was finished with high school, and if I was going to continue playing this game that I loved, I couldn’t go straight to the pros then, you had to go to college.

So, I did. I started when I was a freshman, that was unusual. But about a third of the way through the season, the coach said to me, “Hey, I talked to your academic advisor and you haven’t declared a major.” And I said, “A major what? You didn’t say anything about a major when you recruited me.” “No, no, Thom, you got to have a major, a major field of study.”

So, I chose theology, and became a theology major because I was always interested in how people think and what they do and all that. And, honestly, Pete, it was because you didn’t have to take tests. You just wrote papers and had discussions under trees. So, I thought, “Hey, they’re already paying for my education, how about I don’t work all that hard on the education part?”

And at the end of my sophomore year, my theology advisor and a professor, biology professor, who I had taken a course from. “Have you ever thought about becoming a doctor because you might have more influence as a doctor than as a theology professor?” I didn’t know. A doctor was somebody who sawed up a laceration or stuck his finger some place I didn’t want it, and said, “Turn your head and cough.” But I said, Sure.” I trusted these guys.

So, as a junior, I started taking freshman-level pre-med courses. The first course was Chemistry 101. It went okay, if not great. I got to the first test. It was a hundred-question test, and I opened it up and the first question is “A mole is Avogadro’s number of particles or…” and then five answers, A, B, C, D, E. “Well, who’s Avogadro? I never heard of an Avogadro. He’s got a number. I don’t, a mole? I thought that was a critter that tore up your lawn or something.”

So, I thought, “You know, hey, this has been great, no problems. I wonder if I can…Are we still in drop ag? Can I drop this course? I’ll just go back to theology and football.” So, my answer is I didn’t even read the questions from there on because I figured if I didn’t even know what the first one was. So, I just did A, B, C, D, E, E, D, C, B, A. In football, we call a slant and go route, a sluggo route, and that’s what my answer page looked like.

So, I got to the end, a hundred question, marked it off, flipped the page, but in the back, there was a blue envelope, and typed on the envelope said, “Bonus question. If you get this question right, you’ll get an A in this course no matter what you did on the first 100 questions.” And I thought, “Let’s give it a shot.” So, I opened it up it says, “What’s the name of the man who cleans this room every night so you can have a great place in which to learn?”

So, I walked up to the professor, Keith White, the Chairman of the Department of Chemistry, I said, “Dr. White, this bonus question…” and he smiled, and I said, “You want his first name or his last name?” And he said, “Thom, if you can give me his first name and his last name, I’ll not only give you an A in this test, I’ll give you an A on this course, as long as you show up and as long as you do your work.”

And I said, “Well, Dr. White, what if I can give you his wife’s name and the names and ages of his six kids?” He stood up, took his glasses off, pointed at me, and said, “Thom, if you can do that, I’ll give you an A in every chemistry course you take, as long as you show up and as long as you do the work.” And he was as good as his word and I was too. And so, all my chemistry courses from him, I got an A in. And so, what’s my point?

Pete Mockaitis

If I may time out. How did you happen to know him so well, the person who’s…?

Thom Mayer

Well, that’s the point, that’s the deep-joy point because the reason I knew him so well was, I didn’t even get to the chemistry lab until I had finished all day of classes, all day three hours of practice in football, theology essays, so about midnight I end up showing up in the lab and that’s when this gentleman, who had another job during the day, came to the lab.

So, we got to know each other and got to know each other well in the darkness of the night because his deep joy was not just cleaning that room, but interacting with the very few students. I was probably only one of two in a whole semester. And so, I became a doctor not because I’m smart or intelligent or hardworking, but because of a janitor at the college I went to. His name was Roosevelt Richmond.

But, let me tell you, he came in smiling every day, whistling every day, and he always said to me, “Look at him, he’s got fire in his belly.” And I’d said, “No, Mr. Richmond, I just don’t plan my time all that well.” So, I found that, as a physician in environmental services, janitorial services, I hate that second term. In the hospital, so after a tough resuscitation and there’s trauma, there’s blood all over the place, sure, I thank the nurse, yes, I thank the resident, yes, I thank my colleagues, but I also go over to the environmental services person and say, “Thanks for cleaning this up. We can’t do this without you.”

So, I think as you go through your day, counterintuitively, you’re going to see people that may not have CEO after their name, they may not work and live in the C-suite, but they live in the C-suite of their life, of their family, of their job. And so, a long way to travel to answer your question, but they’re everywhere. The deep-joy folks are literally everywhere, in my opinion.

Pete Mockaitis

That is beautiful. Thank you. So cool. So cool. Well, so tell us then, your book, Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading Is Priceless, we’ve already shared a couple principles and some gems, are there any top things you think most of us are getting wrong about leadership and some key reframes or principles that you just wish the world would internalize?

Thom Mayer

So, I really want people to do three things. Number one, to think about leading, not leadership, but leading, a verb, active voice, the actions, in a radically different way.

Number two, I want them to act on that within a week, because if people listen to this or any of your podcasts, or anything that they hear or read or see, and aren’t moved to action within a week, they’re probably not going to do it. They may be, “Wow, that was interesting,” but if it doesn’t change what you do, so I want you to think, I want you to act.

And the third is to innovate. And the reason we have to innovate, I think, is because the way we’re working isn’t working, or it isn’t working well enough or as well as it could, so that innovation is an iterative process in everyone’s life. But it doesn’t occur at the speed of genius or intelligence or creativity. It occurs at the speed of trust because if we don’t trust each other, we won’t step outside the lines. We’ll be afraid of failure.

And when you begin to look at it that way, the answers are not above us, as most people think. The answers are within and among us. The answers aren’t in the C-suite. The answers are in the We-suite, the people who do the work, no matter what the work is. So, what I would say to your listeners is, the leader you’re looking for is you. It’s already there. It’s not something in the future.

I, personally, think if people call others future leaders, I think that’s absolutely a demeaning thing to say, as if, “I’m a leader but you’re not.” The boss is somebody who thinks that he’s the most important person in the room, but the leader knows that her job is to make sure that everyone else in the room feels that they’re the most important person in the room.

So, that somewhat epiphanous moment, and again, I’m okay with aspirational, developing, emerging, but the idea of calling someone a future leader, within those words, I guess as a theology major, I think all words have meaning but all actions and behaviors have meaning. You’re already there, folks. The leader you’re looking for is you. Just embrace it and, yes, improve it, but live up to what it is you believe in in the first place. Don’t think, “Well, someday in the future, it’ll happen to me.”

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah. Well, it’s funny when you say future leaders, I think I’ve heard that most often in the context of I was a high school student at leadership conferences, of which I was a big fan and attended many. But, yeah, when you say it like that to grown-ups, in the midst of their job, that does feel demeaning. And it reminds me of like, “Oh, I think of you as a child.” But even children, I would say are leading. I’m thinking about my six-year-old Johnny is leading his younger siblings and influencing them in positive, beautiful ways, which is heartwarming to see. So, yeah, aspiring, emerging, but also, yes, here and now.

Thom Mayer

Well, that’s a great example because, you know, we have three boys, and we now have five grandkids, and they lead. They lead their families. Those other kids, younger kids, look up to them and model their behavior after them. So, Johnny can feel like, “Well, I’m just a six-year-old,” or it can feel like, “Son, I saw what you did. That was incredible. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate that.” Same world but two different worlds altogether, if you think about it in that way.

Pete Mockaitis

So, if we want to think about leading in a radically different way, is that right there, the radically different way, you know, the We-suite, not the C-suite, everyone is…?

Thom Mayer

Yeah, I think you have to talk about, you know, it’s not the C-suite that matters. It’s the We-suite. It’s the people who do the work. There’s a concept that Kirk Jensen, one of my research partners and I coined, called hardwiring flow, and that means hardwiring flow into systems and processes. What’s hardwiring flow? It means stop doing stupid stuff and start doing smart stuff.

Well, who’s going to identify the stupid stuff? I think the people who do the work know what the stupid stuff is. And they also know if we can innovate at the speed of trust, if we can make failure our fuel, they’ll devise the solutions that work best for the customer, for the patient, in my case, in terms of emergency medicine and sports medicine, as opposed to the C-suite.

Now it doesn’t mean that the C-suite doesn’t have an important role, but the role is not making decisions, not devising new solutions, not saying, “Well, leading consists of vision. I’m the Chief Vision Officer.” Well, the people who do the work are the ones who can best see what the vision is for how to improve the work, number one.

But the C-suite then begins to say, “Oh, my role is to create these enzymatic catalytic reactions which allow the We-suite to do their work,” which leads to corollaries, making failure your fuel, number one. Number two, it’s not the words on the walls that matter. It’s the happenings in the halls. As an emergency physician in tough situations, if I got to look up on the wall to figure out what I’m supposed to do, something is wrong.

Pete Mockaitis

“Hang in there,” with the cat.

Thom Mayer

“Yeah, let me figure this out here.” So, I think it’s not necessarily an inversion of the traditional ways of thinking about things. It’s a reframing of what I found the reality of leading in times of crisis to be.

Pete Mockaitis

You say, “Do more smart stuff and less dumb stuff. The people who are closest to the action see what’s the dumb stuff.” And I think that is, boy, in the game of leadership effectiveness, I don’t know if that’s maybe a third or a half of the battle is just creating the environment.

We’ve had Amy Edmondson, who talks about psychological safety and researches it, on the show a couple of times, in terms of, “Do you really have an environment, a culture, systems, processes, incentives, whereby folks are encouraged and freely, safely, are able to speak up and say, ‘Hey, I noticed we’re doing this dumb thing. Maybe we should do this other thing instead.’?”

And then will that be received and acted upon, or will it just be poo-pooed, or just like, “Huh!” Or just ignored, like, “Huh, that’s weird,” or more or less send the message explicitly or implicitly, “Shut up. This is the way we do things around here, and we’re really too busy to worry about this irrelevant little thing that you’ve brought to our attention, little peon.”

So, sometimes it really does feel like that’s the vibe in a lot of organizations and teams and cultures, and I think it is so toxic to our longtime flourishing. But you’re the expert, I’m just the rambler, how do you think about setting up a situation where folks can surface, “Hey, there’s some improvement opportunities, and let’s get after them”?

Thom Mayer

Well, I couldn’t agree more with the way you framed it. I think my friend, Mark Verstegen, who founded what’s originally called Athletes Performance, now Team Exos. He’s the performance director for the NFL Players Association, one of my partners in terms of keeping our players healthy and safe. But he says it well, “Simple things done savagely well.”

And we’ve made life more complex than it really is. In many ways, perhaps because I was a theology major, we’re almost reinventing and rethinking Aristotelian wisdom, and what I mean by that is this. Aristotle famously said, “We are what we repeatedly do.” The excellence then is not a virtue, but a habit.

Well, if that’s true, and I believe it deeply to be true, hence, the leader you’re looking for is you, the answers are not above us, they’re within and among us, then we begin to realize that. I hear about culture all the time, “We have a great culture,” and I go to organizations and 50% burnout, and when I talk about accountability, burnout, leaders and leading in times of crisis.

And my answer is, “If your culture is so great, why are 50% of your people burned out?” Because burnout, Christina Maslach is a close friend, and I talked to her many times.

Pete Mockaitis

A guest on the show.

Thom Mayer

Yeah, I listened to that one. It was great, as it always is. But, to me, burnout is simply the fact that you’re unable to feel your deep joy at work, then that becomes just a ratio of job stressors and adaptive capacity or resiliency, another term. We can talk about that if we have time. But when you begin to think of it in that way, and you realize that the culture is created every day by the people who impact the other people in the organization, whether that’s the customer, the outward-facing customer, or the inward-facing customers, the teams, that’s why there’s no leading except with teamwork.

So, the work begins within each of us, but it turns towards teamwork because we work in teams. So, how do you start that? Well, you hire right. I’m a lot less interested in hiring brilliant resumes than I am motivated people, motivated by their deep joy, their passion, their servant leadership, all these terms that we’re used to, easy to say but harder to do.

Because we can educate people. I can make them smarter in whatever, cardiac resuscitation, trauma, sports medicine, and all that. But if they don’t have the passion, if they don’t have the burning desire, if they don’t have the willingness to work across teams, Bill Belichick said famously, “Talent sets the floor of a team, but character sets the ceiling.”

And when we look at the character of people when we hire them, we say, “I don’t want you to just show up for work. I want you to show up for work with passion, with joy, with intensity, and with ideas on how this work could be better.” So, you have your job, but you also have that important job of helping that job be better and easier for the people who do it.

Because, as you know, and you’ve talked about this in the show before, intrinsic motivation is why people do things, not because the boss says so but because they realize this better serves their deep joy, it’s easier for them, and it’s better for the customer or patient or whoever it is that we’re at that job for. So, I think hiring right and creating that culture on day one before they ever come into the organization is critical and neglected in many organizations.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, Thom, tell me any other top do’s and don’ts you want to make sure to put out there before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Thom Mayer

What I learned at the Pentagon, I’m asked that question often, “Just tell me one thing you learned at the Pentagon.” And the answer is, “Stop sucking up. Start sucking down.” And what I mean by that is, on day one, September 11th, in the afternoon with the fire raging, there were 32 generals, two-star or above, standing behind me at the Pentagon. Great people, impassioned people, deep joy, saying, “Doc, tell us what you need and we’ll get it for you,” because that was their people inside that burning building.

Now, I could have spent three days, which I did on-site, sucking up to the generals. It wouldn’t have done me any good, and, more importantly, it wouldn’t have done the people I was serving, the paramedics, the firefighters, the structural engineers. So, suck down is what we need to do, and that was the structural engineers, the Army Corps of Engineers, shoring up that building, fixing that gash where American Flight 77 blew through the southwest wall of the Pentagon, all the way into the A-ring, the inner ring of the Pentagon, the firefighters, the paramedics.

And I think that’s true in most organizations. People need to stop sucking up and start sucking down. If you have a bunch of suck-ups, most of us can’t stand that, but that comes when you talk about future leaders instead of “You are leading today. What can I do to make your job better and our customers’ lives, patients’ lives in my case, better?” So, one piece is just that. Stop sucking up, start sucking down.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, when you say, so sucking up, we understand to mean, when you say, “Oh, oh, is there anything I can do for you, sir or madam? I think you’re so wonderful and so smart and so brilliant, and, oh, let me get that for you right away.” And so, we sort of want to take that approach of, I don’t know, deferential-ness, or kindness, service, etc. to serve those who are on lower levels of the org chart so that we see “What do you need? What can I do for you? How can we make your life easier, better, resource you so that you can do what you need to do well?”

Thom Mayer

And you phrased it perfectly, particularly the voice inflection, but that voice inflection, that sucking up, is kryptonite to creativity. Absolute kryptonite to creativity. Because when most people, when most bosses say, “Think outside the box,” they don’t mean that. They mean, “Think inside my box. Think the way I think.”

Pete Mockaitis

“Outside of your box and inside my box.”

Thom Mayer

Exactly. And guess what the boss is thinking. It’s just no way to live. No way to live for the people doing the work. It’s really no way to live for a leader because it’s frustrating. You really want them to, “Hey, blow me away. Give me an idea. Let’s think about how this could be done differently.” Again, contrarian, but I think, in my life at least, it’s been one of the keys to success.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Any other top do’s and don’ts?

Thom Mayer

The leader you’re looking for is you. Everyone in every organization is a leader, number one. Number two, everyone in every organization is a performance athlete, no different than my athletes in the NFL, involved in a cycle of performance, rest, and recovery. Performance, rest, and recovery. And as you know, we’ve neglected rest and recovery, which is part of the reason we have so much burnout and moral injury in our society these days. So, invest in yourself, invest in your team of people.

And then third, the work begins with them. We always start within ourselves. People say, “Well, do you ask people in an interview ‘What keeps you up at night?’” And the answer is, “No, hell, no. I ask them ‘What gets you up in the morning?’ That’s what I care about.” And that’s why I say the work begins with them, but it turns towards teamwork. So, the skills of teamwork, perhaps a future podcast we can do together, but an absolute part of success, personally and within organizations.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Thom Mayer

Well, one of my favorites is Churchill, and it’s not, maybe one you’ve never heard Churchill say before. But in the midst of his prime minister-ship, the Lord Mayor of London had a luncheon for him and his beloved, treasured wife, Clementine, was there with him.

And the Lord Mayor thought he was going to trick Churchill by saying, “Mr. Prime Minister, if you couldn’t be Sir Winston Churchill, who would you choose to be?” And his impish smile, and said, “Mr. Lord Mayor, if I couldn’t be Sir Winston Churchill, I would choose to be…” and he looks down at his wife, and said, “Mrs. Churchill’s second husband.” Isn’t that nice? That’s the way I feel too.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Thom Mayer

Oh, I think all the work done on this. We’re working now on lifespan, how long you live, health-span, how disease-free you are, but we’re doing a lot of work now on joy span, on how the generative joy, the generative nature of creativity, of doing things, not just at your stage and my stage in life, but Johnny’s stage and Joey’s stage so that we nurture that sense of awe, that sense of joy, that sense of we are all creating our own lives and helping shape the lives of others. So, some great research coming out on that that I think is going to help change the way we look at what does a successful life look like.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite book?

Thom Mayer

If you said choose one, I’m very impressed with Brene Brown, and I think her work is very, very important work. And if I chose one, I’d probably say Dare to Lead.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Thom Mayer

Oh, I think a smile. When people think of me, I only want them to do one thing. I want them to smile. Now, I don’t have a great smile, but the tool is creating smiles in other people so that when they hear my name, hear my voice, see my face, they smile.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite habit?

Thom Mayer

Gratitude. I try to get up every morning, and before I do anything else, sit calmly or stand calmly and think of three good things that I’m really grateful for. And I try, during the course of that day, to reach out to whoever or whatever team it was that I thought about and let them know that, because, as one great writer said, “There is silence enough beyond the grave.” I think expressing that gratitude is more important in some ways than feeling that gratitude.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And is there a key nugget you share with audiences or readers that seems to really connect and resonate, they highlight it, they retweet it, they quote it back to you often?

Thom Mayer

Over the course of 30 plus years, it’s deep joy. People say, they’ll come up to me and say, “I heard you speak 20 years ago or 10 years ago or last year, and of all the things you said, the thing that stuck with me is deep joy, deep needs.” So, yeah, people, and you’re probably about to ask me what my deep joy is, and my deep joy is helping other people find and embrace and live their deep joy.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Thom Mayer

Well, the book is available on Amazon and all major websites, Leadership Is Worthless…But Leading Is Priceless: What I Learned from 9/11, the NFL, and Ukraine, because I had the honor of serving there. But my email is the best, it’s just thommayermd@gmail. If I can help you, it’d be an honor. Reach out anytime.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, thank you. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Thom Mayer

The leader you’re looking for is you. The work begins within.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Thom, this has been so much fun. I wish you much luck and joy and goodness in all you’re up to.

Thom Mayer

Thanks, Pete. It’s, as I said, an honor to be on. I appreciate it very much. Give a squeeze to your family.

Aug 26
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990: How to Advocate for Yourself and Get Noticed at Work with Jessica Chen

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Jessica Chen discusses how to get noticed even if you’re not the loudest voice in the room.

You’ll Learn

  1. The top misconception about career advancement 
  2. How to ensure your message always lands 
  3. The five elements that make your voice resonate 

About Jessica

Jessica Chen is an Emmy-Award winner, top virtual keynote speaker, and CEO of Soulcast Media, a global business communication training agency. Her client list includes Google, LinkedIn, the CDC, Medtronic, Mattel, HP, DraftKings, and many more. Prior to starting Soulcast Media, Jessica was a broadcast television journalist. She is also an internationally recognized top LinkedIn Learning Instructor where her communication courses have been watched by over 2 million learners and featured in Forbes, Fortune, and Entrepreneur. She lives in Los Angeles.

Resources Mentioned

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Jessica Chen Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jessica, welcome.

Jessica Chen
Hi. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to get into your wisdom. And I would love to kick us off by hearing something super surprising and counterintuitive you’ve learned over your years of studying how we can get noticed at work for the right reasons.

Jessica Chen
Well, I have to reference back to when I first started working. My thinking was, “As long as you work hard and you’re smart, you’ll get recognized, right? Your opportunities will open up. You’ll get that promotion. People will know about you.” But, funny enough, that’s not how the world works. And it was counterintuitive to many of the things I was taught growing up in a very traditional and conservative household, where it really was just about studying and putting your head down.

And so, when I began my career, which, at the time, was as a broadcast journalist, I really figured out quickly that I had to learn some new skills because it wasn’t just about being smart or being hardworking. It’s being able to communicate, put yourself out there, and advocate for yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m curious, we’ve got to talk about the Emmy in particular. Congratulations. Not very many Emmy Award winners on the show. So, tell us, that’s sort of a very concrete, discrete achievement, accomplishment, which seems to suggest, “Hey, you’ve been noticed for your work. It is outstanding as recognized by the powers that be.” Was that also something that you had to advocate for? Are we to understand that awards are not granted just for being outstanding? What’s behind the scenes here?

Jessica Chen
So, the Emmy Award, as many of you know, is considered the most prestigious award in television and it was something that didn’t happen absolutely overnight. It took me about 10 years to actually win that award, and this was when I was at the ABC station in San Diego, California. And it’s funny because, and I think, you know, if we’re talking about awards and things like that, I never feel like it’s something that you are aspiring or trying to get. You just do good work and hopefully people will begin to notice it. But there is an element to you have to be able to talk about the work so people know about it.

So, I remember for this Emmy award, this was actually a culmination of, it really was a team effort, and I have to say that, where the story that got us that award was, so this was, gosh, this was when San Diego was experiencing a lot of wildfires. I’m here in California, and many people know California is quite dry. And so, in San Diego, during that particular year that we won that award, there were a lot of wildfires happening.

And so, for us, in journalism, and for me particularly as a journalist, as a reporter, when you have, like, for example, a fire breaking out, your job isn’t to run away. Your job is to run towards the fire, which is also counterintuitive to everything. And so, I just remember our entire team did such a great job in covering the fire, safety, what was going on, where do residents have to go, where did they have to evacuate.

And just the seamlessness in the execution of how everybody operated, how everybody communicated, it actually ended up being one of the, well, the reason why I won was because it was actually a really well-produced news story and newscast. And so, again, it wasn’t just about working hard, which, of course, you got to do, but after we finished that, it was about, “How can we make sure that we get the visibility for this amazing coverage that we had?”

And, of course, we submitted it to get nominated, and it got picked as the award winner and whatnot. But I think that Emmy Award is a good symbolization of, “Yes, execution is important, but being able to put yourself out there and talk about it is also very key.”

Pete Mockaitis
I really dig that story because I think it’s possible that you’re doing a ton of stories, you’re cranking them out day after day, and it is sort of special for y’all to step back and realize, “Oh, wait. This one was really particularly excellent. Let’s make sure that we put our best foot forward,” and pick your moment and rock and roll there.

Jessica Chen
Exactly. And I think one of the, you know, a lot of things that I talk about, one of them is being able to celebrate your wins, and at the same time it’s not about always talking about the work that you do but it’s being judicious about, “Okay, I know this one I did particularly well in. How can I make sure to maximize the opportunity and ensure other people know it?” Because, yes, you don’t need to do it for every single project, every single thing that you do, but for the ones that really stand out to you, it’s thinking about how you can take that and leverage it for perhaps more opportunities, more recognition.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, your book is called Smart, Not Loud. Can you hammer home the main idea or distinction we should be thinking about here with that?

Jessica Chen
So, the thesis of this book, and I really wrote this book for those who were raised in what I call a quiet culture. So, people who are raised in a quiet culture were taught principles like valuing humility, modesty, not seeking the spotlight, avoiding conflict, for example. And I teased this earlier where, growing up in a very traditional and conservative family, my parents taught me to embody these quiet culture traits.

But when you go out into the working world, especially in many Western and corporate workplaces, you start to see that it’s the people who are able to speak, be the first one to speak, put themselves out there, talk about their wins. These are the things that people notice, which is what I call loud-culture traits. So, the question is, “For somebody who was raised to embody and value these traits, how can you still get noticed at work without necessarily changing who you are as a person?”

Because my whole thing is, if you naturally tend to be on the quieter side, or if being assertive, dominant, loud, and extroverted, if that’s not your style, I don’t think that’s necessarily what you should do because that feels quite inauthentic. But how can you still show up in a way for you to get noticed and still unlock those bigger opportunities?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds handy. Maybe before we get into the particulars of how that’s done, could you share with us a cool success story of someone who made a transformation doing this kind of stuff?

Jessica Chen
I’ll share my own story, because this is a personal journey for me too, and like I mentioned, that was how I was raised, and I experienced a lot of friction. I call it communications friction in the workplace. And, in many ways, when I started working, it was this culture shock.

So, I was trying to find this balance that I was talking about earlier of like, “Well, if it seems like the people who are loud get recognized, but that’s not necessarily my style, how can I do that?” And at the end of the day, a lot of it actually came down to one thing. It was communications.

It was learning how to be an effective communicator. And we know communications is a very broad topic, and there’s actually a lot to learn.

It’s about, for example, public speaking, getting comfortable standing up and presenting an idea. I think, for many of us, this is not something that we are naturally born with. It certainly wasn’t something that I naturally was comfortable with, or even finding that moment to communicate your idea in a meeting. I used to remember sitting in a meeting and being like, “Oh, gosh, I have an idea. I want to say it.” But instead, I’m in my own head creating this narrative of like, “Is it a good idea? Is it not a good idea?” And then before you know it, the conversation has moved on, right?

And so, it’s funny because I always joke, even though communications was something I struggled with, because I started out as a broadcast television journalist, there was no better industry for me to learn how to become an effective communicator. And so, this is to say, when you asked about the journey, like a person who had that transformation, I think, in many ways, it was for me being introspective, identifying these points of friction, and then really doubling down on leveling up my communication skills, because once I did that, I felt like opportunities, visibility, all that completely changed.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to talk about some of the particulars of communicating well and sort of getting past these friction points. But could you first share with us what is it that we want to communicate? How might we go about identifying key things worth highlighting before we figure out the how, specifically, to execute that communication?

Jessica Chen
The number one most important thing anybody has to think about if they’re thinking, “How do I make sure my message comes across the way I want it to come across?” is to always ask yourself this question, “Who am I speaking with and what do they care about?” I think, for many of us, it’s not instinctive for us to think about that first question because many times we’re thinking about, “I have this idea. I’m excited about this idea. I’ve been working on this project and I know I want to talk about it in this meeting.” And a lot of it is coming from your own perspective.

And I always say you can be presenting or talking about one topic to this group. You’re at a next meeting, same topic, but different group of people. Even though your topic is the same, how you communicate and how you tailor that needs to be different because maybe the people in group A, the things that they care about might be a little bit different than the people in group B.

And here’s an example. Let’s say in group A, you’re talking to your immediate team, and your immediate team are people who just need to know what’s going on, the execution, the nitty-gritty details. But let’s say in Group B, you’re talking to senior-level executives. They probably don’t want all the nitty-gritty details. They just want to know the high-level key points and perhaps your recommendation.

Because if you boggle them down with all the details, they might go, “Okay, so what’s the point you’re trying to say, Jessica?” And I think, as an effective communicator, we’ve got to be really in tuned with our audience, what they care about, and tailoring our message to them. That can be our guiding light and our North Star.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. And I’m thinking about any number of times I’ve received an intriguing enough cold email that got me to hop on a call for a demo of something. And I’ve been amazed at how fairly often folks will walk me through a slide deck, this is just like a one-on-one kind of sales conversation, but walk me through a slide deck.

And I’m thinking, “I don’t care about any of that. I don’t care about your founder, or the history of the company, or your story, where the idea came from, like the inspiration.” It’s like, “I just want to know, can you really do the thing that you’re saying you can do? Is that going to make big results happen for me? And could you show me a cool case study or how this unfolded in practice with some charts or graphs or numbers?”

But help us out with that. So, we tend to get stuck in a world where we just think, “Okay, this is my presentation, so I’m supposed to give it,” or “I’m fired up about this, so I’m going to go for it.” What’s sort of the habit or practice or ritual we should use to stop and check in and get that audience info we need first?

Jessica Chen
It’s funny because the story that you just mentioned, that experience you have, a lot of it is because this person is presenting you a canned presentation that they’ve created. It’s like, “Okay, getting on a call with Pete. Let me just pull up the presentation that I always give.” And here’s the thing, and let’s be real, nobody has time to recreate a presentation every single time they’re meeting somebody new.

But I do think the first few minutes of, and let’s just use the example of presentations, the first few minutes of you giving a presentation, that is the most critical time because, like you said, Pete, you’re ready to listen, you’re like, “Okay, you got me on this call. I am intrigued enough to talk to you, so I’m paying attention.”

And so, for folks who are thinking about, for example, leveling up their presentation skills, yes, we’re not talking about changing your entire presentation because nobody has time for that. But thinking about how you can tailor just even the first few minutes, “Okay, I’m getting on this call with Pete. What do I know about him? What is it that I feel, like, he cares about? And I can make sure that I start off with that because I want to capture his attention and get him really interested.”

And like you said, for you, you’re like, “I don’t really care to know about, like, the founders or, like, whatever, that kind of stuff,” but maybe to somebody else that is important to them. So, for the person who is engaging with you, for them to think about “How can I be strategic?” it’s being able to identify, “Okay, what are the things you care about? And how can I start it off to capture your attention?”

Pete Mockaitis
And it seems like it would be totally fair in a small environment where you can, like if it’s one or two or three people you’re speaking to, as opposed to hundreds, to just ask, “Hey, so where do you want to start first? What do you find most interesting? What made you intrigued to have this conversation?” And I suppose you can simply ask.

Jessica Chen
Exactly. And I think a good way is to ask open-ended questions at the beginning, and this is kind of where like the art of small talk happens. Before you even dive into the presentation itself, before you even pull it up and start sharing your screen with somebody, it’s just kind of getting a temperature check of, like, this person. Maybe asking a few questions, and then that can give you some pretty key insight of like, “Oh, I know this,” or “Pete said this, so maybe I can kind of, like…”

And this can even be not just content. It can just be even tone and the vibe of how you present it. If you notice somebody is, like, pretty formal and pretty, let’s say, they just want to get straight to it, then you’re like, “Okay, I got to get straight into it.” Or, if you’re like, “Oh, in this small talk, I found that this person likes to chit-chat. They’re a little bit more casual,” then maybe in your presentation style, you now tailor it to that. It’s always basically meeting people where they’re at.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, you could intuit based on your observations of how things seem to be. That’s super. Are there any explicit questions you recommend just straight-up putting out there?

Jessica Chen
Well, I mean, I’m trying to think about very specific, but I mean, even just when we think about small talk, it’s just thinking about, like, “What have you been working on?” or, like, “Kind of what’s exciting?” And I think that can give you insight of who the person is, what they’re interested in, and then using that information, whether it’s in the beginning of your meeting or later on in the meeting, but using that bit of insight to make it feel like, “Oh, I heard what this person said.”

And so, in the middle of the conversation, you can even bring it back up. You can say, “Oh, yeah, and, Pete, when you mentioned that earlier, when we first jumped on that call, this point that I’m about to make actually relates to that.” So, it’s really making sure that you’re asking questions that provide insight into this person, but then also maybe even leveraging it during your conversation to show the other person that, hey, you’re listening.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am listening, Jessica, and it sounds, like, you’re kind of touching on some of the stuff associated with your 4A Sequence for speaking up at meetings. Can you lay this on us?

Jessica Chen
I have found that for some of us, being the first one to speak up in a meeting is not the most natural thing. Some of us tend to want to get a temperature check of the meeting first, or not the first one to speak, or they tend to just want to think about their ideas before they say something, versus some people are very much about they’re processing their ideas in real time as they’re communicating.

However, there is this 4A Sequence, and this is a communication strategy specifically for people who tend to have a hard time finding that moment to speak because, what we don’t want is for somebody to have a brilliant idea and they’re just keeping it in their mind, and they’re trying to figure out when’s the right time to speak, and before they know it, the conversation has moved on.

So, the 4A Sequence is a way of basically seamlessly inserting yourself into the conversation, and I’ll walk you through the 4A. It’s four As basically. The first A is active listening. The opposite of active listening is passive listening which is think about when you’re sitting on your couch watching Netflix. You’re passively listening and watching what’s but you have no intention to chime in. And I think this is a very important mindset shift, because when you go into a meeting with the intention of saying at least one or two things, it completely changes how you even sit in a meeting, whether you’re leaning in, and how you’re paying attention. So, going in with A, active listening.

Once you found that opportune time to chime in, whether it’s because of a pause or because somebody said something that is relevant to what you want to say, the next is you want to acknowledge. Acknowledging is you simply saying, “Hey, Pete, that was actually a really interesting point you just made,” or “What you just said made me think of…” You’re acknowledging the person by saying, “I hear you.” And you can even say those words, “I hear what you’re saying.”

But what is great about this is you’re allowing the person who just spoke to not feel like you’re cutting them off necessarily. Because when people feel like they’re getting cut off, or this is even more important to do if you have an opposing idea, is you want them to feel acknowledged so that they can go, “Okay, at least I was heard.” You acknowledge. And, by the way, acknowledging is not agreeing, it’s just letting the person know that you heard them.

Then the third A is anchor. Anchoring is repeating one or two words the person said right before you as a way to connect your point to their point, “Hey, Pete, that was a really interesting point you just made. And when you said the word data, it made me think of A, B, and C.” You said data, I repeated your word, data, and that creates a connection.

And then, finally, the fourth is answer. Now you make your answer, your pointed statement, or whatever it is you want to say. And I have found that when you can, like, present this acronym of the 4A Sequence, it’s especially helpful for people who tend to figure out, like chiming in and how to do it. So, it’s active listening, it’s acknowledging, anchoring, and answering.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I like those little examples there. Could you give us a full demonstration in terms of we’re chatting, and, well, I guess I need to say something first that you can actively listen to. So, we’ll say, we’re chatting, “I’m really excited about the opportunity to put forward this content. I think it’ll be like testimonials on steroids when we interview our clients in this context.”

Jessica Chen
“So, you mentioned the word content and I know, Pete, you’ve been producing a lot of different content on this, and so it made me think of the next few episodes you’re going to be creating.” So, this is just kind of me using and repeating the word that you said. I was anchoring it to the word you said, which was content. I mean, I don’t really have a follow-up question to what you have to say, but if I did, I’d be like, “Okay, Pete, okay, content, oh, I did have a question about content.” So, this is how I would essentially seamlessly insert myself back into the conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
And what I think I’ve found is that when you’re anchoring and repeating a word or phrase someone said, if that word or phrase is somewhat unique, distinctive, original, fresh in some way, the person who said those words that you anchor to feels a little dose of, like, a pat on the back, or a high five, or a good job for saying that clever thing. So, I just get the impression that it increases your likability or maybe that’s just me and I’m super susceptible to this kind of flattery.

Jessica Chen
No, you’re totally right, and I think some of it can be very subtle. It could be also very unconscious. Like, if I had repeated something that you said, it kind of makes you feel, “Oh, wow, Jessica actually heard me.” And it’s not like I’m explicitly saying it, like, “Oh, amazing idea,” but it’s just like, yeah, it’s just kind of like a little like, “Hey, wink, wink, like I heard you.”

And when we think about being an effective communicator, I think we have to think about making sure we are capturing people when they’re most receptive to listen. And when they’re most receptive to listen, it’s generally when they are feeling validated, feeling acknowledged, feeling like they’re being heard. So, I think, yes, these subtle communication tactics, which we’re talking about right now, is the anchoring, repeating one or two words that person said, it can actually achieve that for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
We had Chris Voss on the show, the FBI negotiation dude, and he talked about that very concept of repeating the last few words they said is almost magical, even if you’re doing it sort of as though you’re thinking it in, like, a soft thinking processing kind of a voice. It’s like, “Okay, you’re really considering what I’m putting forward, and I appreciate that. Thank you.”

Jessica Chen
Exactly. So, I think when we think about being an effective communicator, it’s leveraging things that are also, yes, explicit but also very implicit too, but it’s still getting the other person to feel, like, “Oh, yeah, okay. Well, me hear what Jessica has to say next.”

Pete Mockaitis
And you highlight five different elements of voice which I think is so cool. Can you walk us through these five things? But, first, tell us why do we want to pay attention to our voice and what it sounds like? Is it just sort of like our voice is our voice, and that’s fine? Or just how much of an impact does it make tinkering with these variables?

Jessica Chen
It’s funny because I think, whenever I talk about tone of voice specifically, a lot of times people go, “Well, it’s just the sound of my voice, right?” Yes, but there’s actually way more we can do with our voice than we think. And the five elements, which I will go through, are, I mean, this is not something that I produced. It’s actually based off research and study and research.

And I remember, just for me, when I was a broadcast journalist, I remember we would have consultants come in and they would critique us on television, and they would say, “Do this, do that, change this, change that,” just like as consultants, that’s what they do. And I remember one time I had the consultant come in, and we’re watching me talk on camera, doing whatever story, and she kept commenting, at least for me specifically, like, the rate, the pace of my speaking.

Now, when I get excited, when I’m happy, I tend to talk very fast. I think that’s just kind of like who I am, like I’m just excited, so I talk fast, especially if I’m maybe doing a story that’s more upbeat. And I remember her saying, “Jessica, you got to slow down.” And, in my mind, I was like, “I actually thought I was talking much slower than I would normally do,” because I know being and talking fast is my one weakness. And she was like, “No, no, no, Jessica, if you really want to be impactful, you got to speak way slower.”

And that’s when I realized, your tone of voice has many different elements, and, yes, how fast you speak is the first one. So, I’m going to walk through the five right now. So, number one, your tone of voice, the first element is really what we call your rate, how fast you’re speaking. And that’s kind of like the one that we think of the most because when people are nervous or excited, which is in my case, we talk fast. So, the key is you can actually control and change it. In fact, you do want to have a variety.

The second one is what we call your pitch, and that is basically how high or how low your voice is. Now, we know men tend to have lower pitches, women tend to have higher pitches, but here’s the thing, we all have a range. If we’re maybe talking about something serious, something that we want people to understand the urgency, then we might want to modulate our pitch so it’s a little lower. But it’s not doing it in this unnatural way. It’s, again, knowing that we all have a range.

The second one or the third one is thinking about your intensity. So, intensity, essentially, is how loud or how soft your voice is. Now, typically, when we are mad or angry, we will raise our voice but sometimes when people are shy and timid, they might speak in a lower tone of voice. And the idea is you want to have variety.

And I think this is like very strategic if you’re thinking about, let’s say, you’re giving a presentation and you’re speaking, you’re speaking maybe in a louder voice, and then suddenly you want to get people to know that this point is the most important. So maybe you’ll slow down your rate, lower your voice because that gets people to lean into what you have to say.

The next one is what we call inflection, and that is essentially what words you want emphasized. So, as you’re speaking, you have a choice of, “This is the word that I want people to know.” Like, even I’m just kind of doing it right now, “This is the word I want people to know is the most important.” And that is part of your tone of voice. It’s that inflection on that word.

And then, finally, it’s what we call the quality, and that is inherently, “What does your voice sound like?” When somebody calls you, they’re like, “Oh, that’s Pete,” “Oh, that’s Jessica.” And we say, of the five, the first four, you can control. In fact, you should change and have variety, but you can’t really change what’s inherent, which for some people, it might be that squeaky voice, that hoarse voice, that raspy voice. That’s just inherently who you are.

Pete Mockaitis
In a way, I’m thinking about sort of like recipes. If I want someone to receive a message more, like, thoughtfully, “Let’s reflect on this thing here, and really kind of mellow out and be calm,” we’re going to have a slower rate and a softer volume intensity. And that sort of produces that, which is very different than, “Rally the troops! Onward!” It’s like we’ve got more volume and rate in that zone.

Jessica Chen
Exactly. And I don’t know if you’ve ever even, like, thought so intently about tone. Maybe this is the first time you’re really thinking about it because we’re talking about it, but you’re right, and I feel like because you’re, like, “I have a specific intention, then I need to talk and modulate my tone in this way.” And even when you were just doing those two different modulations, my feeling right now, as a person listening, like I felt a certain way. And that’s the thing, you controlled it, you kind of did that with your tone of voice.

Pete Mockaitis
And not to get on a rant, but people are amazed at AI speech-to-text these days, and it’s very impressive technology, I’ll give you that. Like, that’s pretty cool and that wasn’t around nearly as robustly and beautifully six years ago because I’ve tried over the years. But at the same time, boy, when I watch a YouTube video and it has an AI narrator, I can tell, I get irritated.

Because it’s, yes, you are saying the words, bravo. Bravo, robot. But it’s not giving me all the emotional things with words that are part of what make a video lovely. So, I don’t know, that’s my take for what that’s worth. What’s your take on how AI plays into all this, Jessica?

Jessica Chen
Honestly, it’s just going to get better.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, over time.

Jessica Chen
It’s just going to get better. It’s going to get better over time. It’s going to sound so realistic and it’s going to be scary, in my opinion. But where it is right now, I think many of us can tell it’s very artificial. It doesn’t sound very natural. And, as humans, like, I think that’s actually a good thing right now. It does kind of scare me a little bit once you cannot differentiate between, “Is this AI talking or is this a human talking?” But right now, for us, as humans to humans, that is how we connect. It’s the emotion behind the words, the language that we’re using. That’s how it builds connection, for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
And then you got me thinking about news broadcasters, in particular, and connection. What do I call that, the down pitch, in terms of like at the end of things? And some folks, let’s see, for an example, I might say, “And Starbucks revenue has increased by 18%.” It’s like the “Do-do,” at the end. And so, sometimes I get the vibes, it’s like, “Okay, you’re done. That’s what you’re communicating with that, is that we’re done, we’re over with this.” But kind of my thought is, from like a connection building perspective, that makes me feel like the broadcaster is more robotic and artificial and less connectable. So, what’s your take? You’ve been in it.

Jessica Chen
Oh, yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this. And I have a lot of thoughts because I had to also get out of that broadcast mentality myself. Having worked in broadcast, you start to develop a “broadcasting voice.” And, in some ways, it’s good for maybe more of, like, the nightly news, where, really, it’s just telling you exactly, like, what’s going on.

But if you watch morning shows, for example, on television, it’s way more casual, way more conversational, and that’s the intent. Because in a morning show, the vibe is really to like connect with the audience versus, I think, in my opinion, when you’re watching the nightly news, it’s really about, “This is serious stuff we’re talking about. Like, this is what’s going on. This is breaking news, or whatever politics and crime, whatever’s happening.”

And I think, for most of us listening right now, we’re not trying to talk in that broadcast voice. Actually, a lot of people say, like, “I want to speak like the people who talk on television.” And I’m like, “Actually, you don’t. Yes, maybe in the sense where they’re talking very clearly, they’re enunciating the words, yeah, those are all really good things. But when you’re talking about just everyday speak, you really want to not talk as if you’re talking to a person. You want to talk as if you’re just having a conversation.”

And, honestly, Pete, I think you do a good job with this too. Even though we’re doing this recording together, and in some ways it’s “broadcasting,” but it’s really like we’re having a conversation, and I think that’s really the approach and mentality for everybody.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, Jessica, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Jessica Chen
I would say the number one most important thing that I want people to know is whether you grew up in a quiet culture, or a loud culture, or you find yourself a mix of both, where sometimes it’s easy to speak up, or sometimes it feels a bit harder, I think what we can do for ourselves is know that we actually can control our career brand.

And our career brand is the perception people have of us in the office. So, the real kind of takeaway point is when you go into work every day and you’re thinking about communications, for example, or you’re thinking about tone of voice, or any of those things that we’re just talking about today, ultimately though, what can really accelerate any of our careers in the corporate environment or whatever industry that you’re in is knowing how you can take the work that you have to do, things that people assign you to do, and how can you use it to really leverage it for more opportunities.

Of course, communications plays a huge role in that, but if there’s any kind of, like, one golden nugget, I want people to feel empowered when it comes to their work, and knowing that they have control. Otherwise, if you don’t control the narrative of your own career brand, other people are going to start controlling it for you, and then you start to be boxed into, like, this person who just does this one thing. And I think all of us are way more dynamic than that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jessica Chen
It’s the one where it’s about when you think about communicating, it’s not always about focusing on the words that you say. It’s really about how you’re making other people feel with that.

And I think that’s kind of the essence of why I do what I do. And when people ask me, like, “Oh, can you help me become a more strategic communicator?” a lot of times, I’m like, “Yes, the words that you say matter, of course, are really important, but let’s talk about delivery and how you’re saying it because that’s really what matters at the end.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Jessica Chen
I recently read a good one by Tessa West, it’s called Job Therapy.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes.

Jessica Chen
And I actually really enjoyed that book. I mean, granted, I will be biased, we share the same editor, but I really liked her book because it’s similar to kind of, like, how I think about career. It’s a very proactive way of finding a career that makes you happy instead of the other way around, essentially.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Jessica Chen
On my desk, I have a cup heater and love it because it just keeps my coffee hot all day. 

But, honestly, in all seriousness, I will say, and this is, they don’t pay me to say this but I do use this one app quite a bit to schedule meetings. It’s called Motion, and that has been huge for me. I’ve been using that a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that people seem to really connect and resonate with and quote back to you often, and say, “Jessica, that was brilliant. Thank you”?

Jessica Chen
I would say you got to be your own best cheerleader. I think, for a lot of us who are smart, hardworking, we do good work, sometimes we can just do the thing and then move on. And I think it’s important to remind ourselves that, from time to time, we got to celebrate ourselves, be our own best cheerleader, and it could be even like small little things.

And one quick tip that I love to share with people is if you get an email from somebody, and they’re saying, “Congratulations. Good job. Awesome work,” create what I call a “Yay” folder. Drag that email into your “Yay” folder, and that will effectively become the one place where you can find all the good work that you’re doing, which is very helpful for performance review season.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jessica Chen
I’m most active on LinkedIn, so do connect with me on LinkedIn, Jessica Chen. But I’m also on Instagram, so same thing, Jessica Chen, Jessica Chen page. Otherwise, our website, SoulCastMedia.com. That’s, like, another way to get in contact me and find out about the communications work that we do.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jessica Chen
Yeah, find something to celebrate this week because you are going to be your own best cheerleader. So, think back to the last week, put something small that you did that you’re pretty proud of, and how can you highlight it so other people know about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Jessica, this is fun. Thank you and best of luck.

Jessica Chen
Thank you, Pete.

Aug 19
0

988: How to Elevate Your Status and Command Respect at Work with Alison Fragale

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Alison Fragale reveals the keys to improving others’ perceptions of you.

You’ll Learn

  1. The critical missing piece for your advancement
  2. Why your response to “How are you?” matters more than you think
  3. The quickest way to get others to promote you

About Alison

Alison Fragale is the author of LIKEABLE BADASS: How Women Get the Success They Deserve and the Mary Farley Ames Lee Distinguished Scholar of Organizational Behavior at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill Kenan-Flagler Business School. As a research psychologist, award-winning professor, international keynote speaker, and author, she is on a mission to help others — especially women — use behavioral science to work and live better. Her scholarship has been published in the most prestigious academic journals in her field and featured in prominent media outlets such as The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, Financial Times, Boston Globe, and Inc. She lives in Chicago with her husband and three children, who are all named after professional athletes.

Resources Mentioned

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Alison Fragale Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Alison, welcome.

Alison Fragale
Thank you. I’m so happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be chatting with you because you’re going to teach us how to become likable badasses. That sounds like something I think that we want. What’s the scoop here?

Alison Fragale
I think we should. You know, I will say when I put Likable Badass on the cover of my book, I get the same reaction from everybody. It’s, “Yes, that’s what I’m going for.” And people want it, and there’s a good reason that they want it, because there’s a lot of science behind how it actually helps us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, lay it on us. So, what is the benefit associated with, well, first of all, just define a picture of what that means, and then share with us the research on how that’s beneficial for us.

Alison Fragale
I’m going to take one step backward, and I’m going to introduce something that I care a lot about and I think everyone should care a lot about, and that is the idea of status. And status is how much we’re respected and regarded by other people. So, if we have high status, that would mean our audiences have high respect and regard for us.

And I know from my work and others, it’s what we call a fundamental human need. It’s something all human beings seek, and life is so much better with it, without it. Work is better. Life is better. Our physical and mental health, our ability to gain power at our job, to use the power we have, all these things. So, status is really important for us to understand and understand how we can influence ours.

Where does Likable Badass come in? Because when people look at another person and decide, “Do I respect that person?” when you do that to other people, those decisions that you make, that we all make, those aren’t random. They follow a pattern. There’s two things we look for when we’re evaluating another person to decide how much do we value them. And one thing we look for is how capable they are.

I often talk about that as our assertiveness. Not just, “Can we assert ourselves?” but a whole of skills that if I give you a task, can you get it done? Can you do it well? Are you competent? Are you organized? Are you efficient? Are you persistent? And so, if you have those qualities, I know if I put something in your hands, it’s going to get executed well and I value that. So, I’m going to respect you because of that. So, capability, assertiveness, that’s important.

And then the other one, is our warmth, or do we care about people other than ourselves? And that’s really important too, because I’m going to value people who aren’t just out for themselves, who are going to use their talents to benefit me. And so, if we see somebody who’s very caring and other-oriented, we value that too. We respect it.

So, those two dimensions in psychology are really critical. In fact, we call them when we create a little XY axis out of them, we call them the interpersonal circle of person perception. And “Likable Badass” is my catchy term for the space in the circle we all want to be, which is we all want people to see us as very capable and very caring.

Because when we do that, that’s how we gain status, that we respect people who are good at getting stuff done and who care about other people.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And I suppose that, so is it fair to say these are the two dominant things that make us perceive a person as being respect-worthy, these are the two?

Alison Fragale
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Now, I suppose there might be some third elements that are idiosyncratic to individuals. I was watching this comedy movie, where this guy was shocked and appalled that his best friend was a Republican, for example. So, I’m thinking, like, there might be certain dimensions of division or stereotyping that can cut across this for people. It’s like, “Okay, you’re very capable and you are very warm, but I still don’t like you for…” insert fill-in-the-blank personal bugaboo. Is that fair to say?

Alison Fragale
Yes, although I think you can actually probably shoehorn most of these judgments into capability and warmth somehow. So, I kind of question how good of a human you are. Or maybe I question your intelligence, because, “How could you possibly believe this is true or that is true?”

So, under capability, for example, is also competence and intelligence. So, it’s a circumflex, and there’s characteristics all the way around it. But a lot of times, we can take most of the judgments we have and say, “They do reflect on either how good I think you are at what you do, how smart you are, or how nice and caring you are.”

Again, I’m sure if we played the game long enough, you could find something, but even a political affiliation that people could say, “I don’t really respect that person,” you think, “Well, why don’t I respect that?” And it could come to something about, “Well, you can’t be that smart if you believe that’s true,” or, “You can’t care about other people if you’re willing to let A, B, and C happen.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. So, our deeply held beliefs about a political affiliation, or any sort of an issue, then colors the extent to which we think that they are likable and capable. And so, I guess the opposite of a likable badass would be a jerk-idiot. We’ll hyphenate it. Yeah, I sure don’t want to be one of those, or either of those.

Okay, so there we have it. Status is a fundamental human need, and if we are in the likable badass zone, then good things come to us. I guess we feel we have status, and that feels good, that human need is being met. We feel respected, which is cool and enjoyable. And so, what does it do for us in terms of our career, our progression, our being awesome at our jobs?

Alison Fragale
One thing it does is it opens up all of the things that we tend to want at work. It makes all those things easier to achieve. So if you want to climb a career ladder, if you wanted to have more responsibility, if you wanted to be paid more, all of those things are forms of power, which is related to status, and I spend a lot of time helping people understand the distinction.

Power is controlling resources that people value. So, if I get to spend my budget without having to ask for permission, if I get to make a decision about a work product without having to ask for permission, if I get to review your performance, if I get to hire and fire, all these kinds of things are resources that we value and we control. If I get to come and go as I wish at work, have autonomy, work from wherever, that’s a resource.

So power is also another fundamental human need. People want to be in control. The lack of control of your environment also damages our life satisfaction and our physical and mental health. But status, being respected, is a gateway to getting all of these other good things. Not only is it good to possess in and of itself and it feels good, it also is how we get the power and the resource control that we want. And not everybody wants power in the same way, but everybody wants control over their environment. Again, even if it’s just power over self, “I want the autonomy to be able to work when and where I want or how I want.”

So, we focus a lot on power when we try to help people navigate their careers. A lot of on “How do you advance?” But the piece of the conversation that I don’t think we’re having as explicitly as we should is, “Well, how do you get those things?”

And the way I started was teaching people negotiation skills, which are important. You think, “If I can negotiate really well, I can negotiate myself into the career that I want.,” and that’s helpful. But also, it helps if your audience really values what you’re bringing to the table, that if you’re trying to get something from somebody and that person who’s looking at you, rightly or wrongly says, “I don’t really value you, and I don’t really respect you very much.”

You’re kind of sunk at that point, there’s very little you could say or do from a strategy standpoint that’s going to get you a good outcome, because we don’t give rewards to people that we don’t respect. So, it opens doors for us to being able to control our environment at work in whatever way we want to do it, and that is also really valuable.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Alison, conceptually, that seems to add up and check out like, “Yep, sure, that follows.” Could you point to any particular studies or data that show perhaps just how eye-popping-ly powerful this status stuff is?

Alison Fragale
One of my favorites, looked at interruptions in a work group. and looking at gender and interruptions in the work group. So, this is a group, they had three men, six women, intact group, worked together for years, and the researchers studied the group, and they looked at who got interrupted and who spoke. And they found that everybody spoke at a proportional rate, and so everyone had about equal airtime.

But not surprisingly, the women were getting interrupted disproportionately, much more so. And an interruption is a marker of low status. So, when someone interrupts you, they literally silence you. And so, when you are cut off from even speaking, you can’t have influence. And so, who gets to talk and who gets cut off is a subtle way that we communicate whose ideas are worth hearing and whose aren’t, whose do we respect. So, an interruption is a status, a marker of status.

So, they find the women are cut off, and that is not necessarily surprising, given what you know that gender affects status. But what might be surprising is when I tell you the group, and the group in question is the United States Supreme Court. So, they found, this was the court at the time when Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotomayor, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg were three justices. Those were the three out of the nine. They were interrupted disproportionately more than their male colleagues.

And so, this idea of, “Do they all have power and equal power?” Yes. “Do some of them might have more status than others, in this case, coming from gender as a determinant of status?” Yes. And so, what we see is that even when people have a lot of power, if they do not have the status, that power doesn’t necessarily raise their status, and it doesn’t necessarily protect them from being treated in these lower-status ways.

And so, I always say, if the power of being a Supreme Court justice is not enough to guarantee that everybody would respect you and listen to what you have to say, then we can’t expect that any of us are going to have it. So, we’d like to think that power, being in charge of stuff, is going to make everyone respect us, but what you see in that study is it doesn’t, that direction doesn’t work. The other direction of, “I respect you and, therefore, I give you power,” we see a lot more evidence of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. But I guess a follow-up is, is it the fellow justices interrupting the female Supreme Court justices, or is it attorneys?

Alison Fragale
Both. Both.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, I would be, “Whew!”

Alison Fragale
Yeah, it’s transcripts of these cases that appear before the Supreme Court. So, it’s both the justices and the people who appear before them. Yes, both.

Pete Mockaitis
I would not dream of interrupting a Supreme Court justice, male or female, which is maybe a whole other dynamic about personality in the mix there. So, yeah, I could chew on that one for a while. So then, point made, that there’s quite the distinction between power and status. And it’s interesting how much I really, really don’t like being interrupted.

And so I like that you’re pointing out that, okay, well, yeah, that’s really kind of like a fundamental human dimension is going on, as opposed to I’m just a cranky jerk. So, thank you for that. So then now unpack for us how having status results in great things unfolding for us from a data-driven perspective?

Alison Fragale
We see the status power link, which is, if I have status, so if we look at the groups, there’s been studies done in all kinds of work groups, groups in the military, civilian groups, and they measure at time one who are the really respected people in the group, and that’s a status measure.

And then at time two, they’re measuring who ends up, ultimately, getting the power at some point, like who gets to be the leader, who gets to be in charge. And in all those studies, what you see is that strong status power link, that the people who are the most respected at time one and time two end up being the people who get to be in charge. And I think, I really want to point this out, because not everybody necessarily wants a promotion, not everybody necessarily wants more money or more work. But, one, people do like autonomy over their lives and control, and that power and status are both resources.

Those resources do not just need to be used to benefit you. Those resources can be used to do all kinds of good things for the world. So, if I have power, I could use my power to hire the people who I think deserve to be hired but often get overlooked. I could use my power to elevate somebody in the organization who does great work but may not necessarily get the recognition. And so, power is a resource that we can do a lot of things with. So, that science goes that way.

And then the other piece is that if somehow you had managed to be one of the, you’d think, lucky few who didn’t navigate status very well, but managed to kind of get ahead in your career to the point where you were a person who had a lot of power, you were kind of a Supreme Court justice of your domain, you might think, “Oh, okay, well, I’ve made it, right? I’ve arrived,” but actually, and this is what I’ve spent a lot of my own research doing, we find things get worse for people.

And what we find is that when a person is in that situation, it’s a miserable existence.

Pete Mockaitis
It sounds like it.

Alison Fragale
Yeah. Well, you look at research on incivility, so that’s going to be the mistreatment that kind of goes below the radar. You’re not officially harassing somebody, but you’re doing something that makes them feel terrible. You roll your eyes, you cut them out of the information flow, you make some kind of snide comments about them, that kind of stuff. That stuff is disproportionately directed toward people who have power but don’t have status. And we see at work data that people, when they’re treated that way, they exit if they can.

So, I’m really struck by a lot that’s been reported lately about the exodus of senior women from organizations at greater rates than junior women. Because gender affects status, the idea of being a senior woman raises the idea that some of those people are in these low-status power holder positions. They control a lot of stuff and people don’t respect them.

And then we see they’re treated uncivilly and no one likes that, and so if they have an option, they eject, and we see people, senior women leaving at greater rates than they’re actually being promoted. So, it’s both the good things that can happen to you with it, and the bad things that could befall you without it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Understood. So, lay it on us, Allison, status, how do we get it at work?

Alison Fragale
Some of the things that affect our status are things that are outside of our control and some things that we just might inherit, if you will.

So, it could be gender, race, an accent, an ethnicity, a religion, all these kinds of things, and they don’t have any bearing on our competence or our caring, but people think they do. We give them meaning and, therefore, some people get more automatic respect than others just because of how they look or show they up. So that’s part of it, and that’s why, so some people getting status is actually a little more work, and I want to acknowledge that because status comes from these two places.

But the part that’s very positive is that a huge amount of our status is very controllable. It comes from how we show up when we interact with human beings. And the part that we can control has been shown to have a bigger impact on how respected we are than the parts we can’t control.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good news.

Alison Fragale
Yes, it’s very good news, but what it means is that if we have some of these things that we can’t control that aren’t working for us, we want to be really sophisticated about controlling the controllables. So, here’s the deal. Status exists only in somebody else’s head. It’s their belief about you. So, what do we need to do to influence our status? We need to influence what they believe about us. Feels daunting, but psychology, this is what we study. We say, “Look, you can have a lot of effect on your audience.” It’s controlling the messaging that your audience gets.

So, everything that everyone in the world knows about you at this point in time has come from one of two communication channels. One is information you have put out in the world. Someone sat next to you on an airplane, they listen to your podcast, they know you from being your neighbor, whatever it is, they read about you online, social media, whatever. Those are things that you have originated, put them in the world and people see them.

So, one is we have to control that channel. And what I mean by that is making sure that we are putting information out there that says to individuals and the world at large, “I’m very capable and I’m very caring.” Sometimes that is being willing to self-promote to talk about positive things in a way that feels authentic and comfortable, and we can explore that piece of it. Sometimes it means not doing dumb stuff. So, there’s some stuff that we do that there’s a logic to it. We think, “This is going to be really good for my brand,” and it’s not.

So, one example would be hiding our successes. This is why self-promotion is effective. Hiding our success. Something good has happened to you. You’ve gotten an award, or you’ve hit a milestone on your podcast, or something like this, and you think, “I’m proud of that. That’s good. But I’m not going to go and tell people about that because I don’t want to be seen as a bragger. I want to be humble. And if I’m humble, you’ll like me more.” That’s how I convey the whole likable piece.

But if we’re chatting, and you have some good news and you don’t share it and then you leave, and I hear later, because the grapevine is efficient, that you didn’t tell me, is my first thought, “Oh, my God, Pete is so humble”? No. People think, “Why didn’t Pete tell me? Are we not that close? Or does Pete think I’m so petty I couldn’t be happy for him?”

And so, what happens is when we hide our successes, we actually do it because we think it’s going to get us at least the likable part, not the badass part, but it’s going to get us the likable part. But the research shows it isn’t actually true. It’s not what people infer when they hear that you had something good and you didn’t tell them. You actually end up being seen as capable when the news is released, but it damages the relationship.

So, a better strategy is, why is sharing our success actually a good thing for all that we’ve been told about telling our stories and self-promoting? It’s because you are seen as warmer when you are forthcoming with people and you’re seen as more capable because you’ve told them about the good things. So, that would be an example of starting to control your channel, to not do something that you think is helping your reputation or your brand, but the science shows that it’s not.

Pete Mockaitis
If being forthcoming is a desirable attribute, we probably also want to share sort of major happenings in general, otherwise we’re not forthcoming, whether maybe something sad has occurred in your life, and then they find out about that through the grapevine and they say, “Oh, I was just talking to him. How come he didn’t bring that up?” I guess that same phenomenon could occur there.

Alison Fragale
That’s right. So, again, self-disclosure, you want to be authentic about it and decide where you want to draw the line. Some forms of self-disclosure help build our status. Other forms might not. You might share something personal to build the rapport and the warmth. But then you might say, “I’m going to tell you some things I’m not really good at,” and that’s self-deprecation.

But that is a behavior that is not status-building. Because when we cut ourselves down, we’re basically saying, “I’m not as capable as you think I am,” and we are the experts on ourselves. So, when people cut themselves down, they are seen as less capable as a result, on whatever dimension they just deprecated. But we often do it because it’s socially cohesive.

Cutting yourself down is a form of humor, and many comedians, that’s they’re bread and butter, right? They make fun of themselves, and we laugh, and it is a form of humor. So, being funny is actually cohesive, it builds warmth, but humor at your own expense doesn’t. And so, I think it raises the idea of when I talk about controlling a channel of communication, the balance between being authentic and being strategic.

Because you might say, “I had a really bad day today and I really messed something up. And I didn’t do a good job and I got really bad feedback at work.” And the question is, like, “Do I share it? Do I cut it? Or do I keep it to myself?” And I think everybody gets to make their own decision about what they want to put out there and what they don’t.

But what I’ve had to coach myself on is a lot of the self-deprecating I was doing was done solely for the purpose of trying to be funny. I mean, I believed it to be true, but I was like, “Oh, this is my way of being funny.” Not fully appreciating that that form of humor wasn’t having the effect that I was hoping it would have, which is people would respect me more because of it. And so, now I’m more thoughtful that, if I’m seeking advice or support from somebody, and I say something has gone really wrong, I will tell them because I want their advice or their support in the moment.

But there might be other moments where my goal in the interaction is to show up in a way that’s going to get people to respect me, and I might say, “I’m going to tell a different truth, maybe something that is also equally true, but showcases my capabilities and my concern for others a little bit more.” So, controlling our channel is going to be a big one. And then thinking about easy ways that we can show up to other people and showcase how capable and caring we are.

And what I always tell people is, “Look for opportunities to solve other people’s problems using your unique skills and talents, things you are naturally good at, you really enjoy, and doesn’t take you very long to solve their problems. If you do that in life, and that’s all you do, you will build your status because as soon as you solve their problem, you’re capable, and you’ve spent your effort to solve something that matters to them, so you’re caring.”

But those things can sometimes be done in seconds. So, introducing two people, for example, is a form of solving somebody’s problem, “Hey, let me connect you with somebody who can do the thing that you’re looking for.” And I’m showing that my network is really valuable and it’s really robust, and I’m using my network for your benefit.

Taking something you like. I was very struck recently by a woman that I saw in an event, and she was the unofficial-official Instagram documentarian of this event, and she was taking videos and everything, but she said, “You know, I love being on Instagram, but I think a lot of my older senior colleagues don’t value this. They think it’s, like, personal and silly and it doesn’t really matter. And so, so how do I balance, like, that I really care about that with the fact that that they don’t?”

And I said, “You know, I would love someone who knew better than I did, to say, ‘Hey Allison, I know you’re on social. I have some ideas about how I could make your social more fun for you or more effective or better and, like, increase the impact of your messaging. Could I help?’” Well, all of a sudden, “Oh, sure.” Now it’s not just this silly thing you do. It’s you using your natural talent to help me.

And a lot of those things are fun for people and they’re easy.I always joke, you can buy someone’s coffee if you meet for coffee, but it’s a pretty forgettable act. It doesn’t showcase your capability. But if you make an intro or you give someone feedback on their Instagram, it’s not that much more effort than buying the coffee, but it’s allowing you to showcase yourself in a way that is more unique while still helping them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so these fundamental principles make good sense. We can control the channel, make sure the good stuff gets out there and we don’t hold it back, as well as being helpful. We’re helping people, thus being warm, and we’re helping them using our unique skills, thus being capable at the same time. So, I think those are great things to get our radar up and being on the lookout for such opportunities. You mentioned introductions are great. Do you have any other super favorite things that anyone can do that are great?

Alison Fragale
A hundred percent. So, first, always have good answers to what I call throwaway questions. When people say to you, “What’s new? How is it going? How’s work?” A lot of times we just throw those questions away, “It’s fine. I’m busy. It’s good. How are you?” And at that moment, someone’s giving you a chance to tell your story. Now, do they want a 30-minute answer to that question? They do not.

But something that is better than “fine” or “busy” but gets them interested, like, “I had a great win at work today.” Something that sparks a little curiosity and gets them to actually pause and ask you a little bit about your story. That can be a really good one is, don’t throw those questions away.

The second one is to use the updating that you’re naturally doing as a course of your job to build your status. So, we often have to give people status updates. Use those kinds of things as storytelling opportunities. And one effective way to do that is, in psychology it’s called dual promotion, I call it brag and thank. Anytime you have an update, you’re going to talk about a success or a win that you’ve had, and you’re also going to talk about the great work of other people who helped that win be possible. I’m telling you something great about me and I’m also telling you something great about other people.

That turns out to be a really winning strategy because when we promote ourselves, we’re seen as more capable, and when we shine the spotlight on somebody else, we’re seen as more caring. So anytime we can put those two things together in a message, whether it’s an email, or stopping somebody in the hall, that’s going to be a really easy one for us to be able to do.

And then the other, I’m going to kind of go over into this second channel, because if you remember, I told you there were two channels of communication. One is us and the other is things other people have said about us. So, everything that’s known about Pete is things Pete has put out into the world or things that people have heard or known about you and they’ve repeated. And so, a lot of our status is not built by us. It’s built by other people talking about us in positive ways or they could tear our status down if they’re talking about us in negative ways.

But if someone else is talking about your status in a positive way, they’re doing a lot of your work for you, and they can brag about how capable you are all day long, and there’s no risk to you.

So, one simple thing is finding ways to meet more people. I always say people cannot sing your praises if they do not know you exist. And so, this whole idea that we’ve always been told to network and to meet more people, put yourself in situations to meet more people. There’s a million ways to do it and I’ll tell you the stories if you’re curious, but I’ll just start with this.

Some of the people who have been the most helpful in my career, I met them in airports, like strangers that you have a random conversation with, and next thing you know, within five minutes, something gets uncovered and you’re like, “Huh, okay, maybe we should stay in touch,” and you stay in touch and then the relationship forms.

The other one that I want to offer because it’s just the right way to be, and it’s also very valuable, is the easiest way for you to get someone else to go build your status for you is for you to build theirs first because human behavior is reciprocated. So, a simple daily practice that we can have, to be awesome at our job and build these relationships, is every time you observe someone and you think, “Wow, that was great,” whatever it was, tell somebody, put it out into the world, promote them, and say, “This person is amazing.”

It feels great to do it, but also because the grapevine is efficient, they will eventually find out that you were saying nice things about them, and human behavior is reciprocated. So, one of the easiest ways to build other promoters is for us to just cultivate a daily practice of promoting other people first. So, I have a rule and I always say, if I have a nice thought about somebody in my head, I do not let the thought die there. I put it out into the world somewhere. And that alone, as a simple practice, if that was all a person ever did, would garner them a lot of reciprocal other promotion in spades.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s say I have a nice thought like, “Oh, my buddy, Dave, is so funny.” I mean, I’m not sure where I would park that. I could just text Dave, say, “Hey, I really appreciate you. You’re funny.” Or, I mean, I could put a glowing message on a post on LinkedIn, he might be like, “Pete, what’s going on here, dude?” I don’t know. Where would I park that?

Alison Fragale
Yeah, so I think it depends on the context. One, sometimes I can just go back to the person to say, like, “I was thinking about this today, and it, you know, what your humor is just always like such a joy and cracked me up I was thinking about that.” So that could be appropriate. It doesn’t necessarily have to be, “I do it the moment I think of it.” Like, if I have a thought right now, I’m not going to hop off the podcast and go do something else, but I keep it there and I think about where it has an opportunity.

One of the things I often do is I’ll think about a mutually beneficial introduction that I could make, and when I make that introduction and I think, like, “Dave is hilarious. And what would advance Dave’s interests? And how would him being a funny guy actually be value-added to somebody else?” Even if it’s just two people who have a shared personal connection, I think they would really, really like to be friends.

So, I could introduce Dave to my other funny friend and that could be it, right? And so now, even if that intro goes nowhere, at least you’ve put to the other person in the world, “Hey, Dave is this funny guy.”

And I think when we do those kinds of things, a lot of them don’t go anywhere at the time. If it’s somebody you work with, then you have a lot of opportunities to think about this in terms of hallway conversation and things like that. The next time you’re in a meeting and let’s say you work with Dave, and Dave’s in the meeting, you could think about amplifying something Dave said, or to think about, “Dave is really good at doing X because Dave’s always the person who can put somebody else at ease. And so, I think we should be thinking about letting Dave lead this because he has great skills.”

So, it doesn’t have to be instantaneous. It could be just back to that person. But to think about, “If I think positively about this, who else would benefit from that person’s skills in a way?”

So, again, most people have a lot of positive thoughts about people and they aren’t using those positive thoughts to build that person’s status, and that’s an oversight that we should correct as much as we can.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. And when you talk about introductions, I’m also thinking about just when you happen to be at in-person events. I remember I was at a funeral banquet, and someone was just introducing me and others to each other, and it didn’t take long. It’s like, “Hey, this is Pete. He has a tremendous podcast which helps people do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He’s a thought leader, this and that.” I was like, “Oh, well, thank you.” It was like, “Oh, I like you more!”

Alison Fragale
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And then vice versa, the person who introduced me, “This person has a tremendous Star Wars memorabilia collection.” It’s just kind of fun and interesting. I mean, I’m not super into Star Wars memorabilia, so I don’t necessarily think that that person with a Star Wars memorabilia is extra amazing. But I’m more interested, like, “Oh, wow, huh, a collector. Okay. How did you get into that?” And so, it just seems like everybody wins when we just give a little bit more positive, good detail about who is this person when we introduce each other.

Alison Fragale
Exactly right. You’ve got it. It doesn’t take much. And even with something like Star Wars memorabilia, you might say, “This is the person who knows more about the Star Wars, like, canon and all the memorabilia than any person I’ve ever met.” And so, you would at least then respect some capability. It’s not a capability you would need to have yourself, but you’re like, “Huh, someone had to probably dedicate some actual effort, right? And so, now I see them as a more capable person, even if their skillset is not what I need.”

And you’re right, that we can do that quickly, we can do it authentically, and we can do it in person, we can do it over email, and just thinking about those positive things that we can say when we have our moment can be a great start to being able to build other people’s status for us. And then to your point, you said, “Oh, I had that moment where I thought more positively of them.”

I just had an email when my one of my oldest kids went to a Sleepaway Camp. He got an injury. I was emailing with the camp director to make sure the injury wasn’t going to keep him from being able to participate in camp, and it wasn’t. But when the camp director wrote back, he basically said, “By the way, I just got to tell you, like, how much I have really loved getting to know your son this year. What a leader he is among his peers. What a huge asset he is to camp.” It’s like two sentences.

But I observed, I was like, “Oh, I really like this guy now.” And so, I thought if the email had come the next day saying, “Our camp needs money,” I guarantee you I would have written a check and probably a bigger check than I would have written without that email. And so, I thought, “Oh, he complimented my kid. Oh, okay.” That makes me think he’s really smart because everyone thinks our kids are brilliant and “Oh, how nice.”

So, when I have these moments, like you had at the funeral luncheon or whatever, I unpack them to think, “Why did I feel so positively?” And the same, if I feel negative towards someone, “I like you as I think you’re an idiot.” What did they do? Because I don’t want to unintentionally be doing that thing. So that’s the armchair psychology that we all have in us, is unpack it when you experience it, because everyone else, we’re all like everyone, everyone else is just like us. So, if we felt that way, other people will too.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, when we talk about doing self-promotion, what’s the right and the wrong way to do it? So, if someone says something like, “Oh, hey, how have you been?” It’s like, “Oh, I’m just absolutely crushing it. I’m going to have record-breaking income, maybe three or four mil this year.” It’s like, “Okay, good for you, dude, but this is kind of off-putting.”

So, I mean, one, based on your cultural context in the U.S. and some other places, sharing how much money you have, good or bad, is often kind of frowned upon and makes people uncomfortable. But in other cultural contexts, that’s sort of normative. How do we know some of the do’s and don’ts? We want to put the good stuff out there, but we don’t want to do it in an off-putting way.

Alison Fragale
So, look, this is where the art comes in of understanding your audience and thinking about what feels authentic for you. If it feels icky and you’re doing it as a strategy, I guarantee you it’s going to come across poorly. But if it feels natural, or it can start to feel more natural if you practice it a little bit, it’s better. First is, again, always think about, “Is there a way to do both? Say something good about myself and something good about another person.”

So, if I say, now the tone of voice, whatever that was, don’t do that thing again because that wasn’t going to work. But just the content of it, you know, the, “I’m on track to break three million, etc.” or, “I might have my best year ever, and I lead, as far as I can tell, the world’s best team. Like, this team is showing up in so many amazing ways, and I am just so excited about the success that I’m going to have and they’re going to have, and I don’t know how I got so fortunate.” Something like that where you can shine a spotlight on another person. That can be one way to do it.

The other is to say just a little bit and tease it and let someone else draw you out. Because if they’re asking you questions and you’re answering them, then it’s much more normative. Like, “How is this year compared to last year? Are you doing better?” And you say, “Yeah, I am doing better.” Then that doesn’t feel weird because you asked, but they have to make you curious about it. Like, “I just feel like things are really coming together at work in a great way that is making me really excited.” And you might be like, “Oh, well, what way?”

So, something that could pique a little bit of conversation, and then it’s not a dialogue. But another, you know, this is specific, but I’ll say the idea is to think about how to get that information out there under other purposes, like under the guise of other purposes. So, one example that I share with a lot of people is turning on your out-of-office message, which I’ve seen some people do really brilliantly, and it’s not a strategy I ever used, I still don’t use it as much or as brilliantly, but I’ve seen people, where whenever you’re out of the office, you turn on your message, “I’m gone. Please reach out to so-and-so. I’m back on this date.”

But other people have more flair in their out-of-office messages, and they communicate that the response will be delayed, but they say, “Here’s the exciting thing I’m doing.” Like, if you’re traveling to a conference, if you’re speaking at an event, if you’re, whatever it is, if you’re off talking to three clients, you can say, “Here’s what I’m doing,” and then add in some warmth, add in humor, add in some, “Here’s how I’m actually, like, the work that we’re doing is going to enable us to, like, grow in these markets is going to enable us to serve even more people who really rely on our product to be able to live their best lives,” or something like that.

And that’s an example of how you can start to use all your channels of communication. If you’re on social media, you can use your social media to talk about what you’re doing in a way that doesn’t feel as self-promoting as running around the office telling everybody, “Guess what I got to do?” or, “Here’s something,” you can just celebrate it.

Thinking about all those different ways to do it, but 100%, you have to know you and you have to know your audience because there’s not a script that’s going to say, “Oh, talk about it exactly in this way.” But the idea is if you don’t say anything about your capabilities, how will anyone ever actually know what they are?

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, before we hear about your favorite things, I want to quickly get your hot take on what about things like clothing, the fit of the clothes, the brands, or the up-dress, dress up, dress down-ness of them, and/or height, or vocal intonation, body language, posture, like these kinds of presentation things? How much of a status impact do they make?

Alison Fragale
They have a lot. They’re all channels. People are drawing conclusions from everything you put out into the world – your eye contact, your gestures, your tone of voice, your clothes, etc. Now, does that mean you can only speak in one way, that you should only gesture one way, you should only wear one outfit? Absolutely not. Authentic and strategic can coexist. But you should be aware, and this is one of the things I help people do, is understand all the different behaviors that are linked to status.

So, a common one is, “Why is it that the person who comes in the meeting and just yammers on about nothing all the time, always is considered so smart? It’s so annoying.” It is annoying. But it’s also from science, it’s true, that we associate quantity of communication, speed of responding, speed of speech as markers that somebody is more capable. And so, you don’t have to do those things, but you should understand the relationship.

And so, what I always say to people is, first is just do an audit of, “What signals am I putting out into the world?” And say, “Some of these signals are helping me show up as capable, some are helping me show up as caring, and some are actually doing neither, they’re taking me backwards.” Then the question is, “What do I do about these things, if any?”

I say you need to signal something in every as many interactions as possible that says, “I know what I’m doing,” and you need to signal something that says, “I care about other people.” But it doesn’t need to be all the signals, and you can have a couple that are counterproductive and still overcome them as long as you’re thinking about what else you would do to compensate.

So, I’m a really big apologizer. I say I’m sorry all the time for all kinds of things and just use the word. And I try to coach myself out of it. It was requiring way too much conscious effort and I was just getting annoyed, and every email was taking 36 minutes to write, because I’m like, “Oh, there’s an apology there. Oh, no, then what should I do with these exclamation points? They seem kind of, you know, not so strong either.” And like, then I got smiley faces. So, I said, “Forget it. And I’m going to do the apologizing. I don’t worry about it anymore.”

It’s a more submissive behavior, the opposite of assertiveness, but that’s okay because I have other things that signal capability. I happen to have some credentials that are good signals of credibility. I’m a professor, I have a PhD, things like this. And so, what I concluded was I have enough signals of assertiveness in the environments that I need to function, that I can have a couple of things that work against me that feel natural and authentic, and I can let them go.

So, that’s my general answer is. Those things do affect status. Yes, you should be aware of what the effects are. And then it’s for each individual to decide, “Do I want to change that or do I not?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Alison Fragale
One that I will offer you here that relates to this is from Julia Child. “Never apologize for the food you serve. No one knows how it was supposed to turn out but you.”

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Alison Fragale
Deep Work by Cal Newport. I think his work really speaks to women and anybody else who is marginalized because we know that people who lack status are basically given the worst work. They’re given the non-promotable to do.

And so, I think the idea, the challenge of working deeply, and being able to work on things that matter, things that bring you joy, things that have high impact in the organization is harder for some people than others because they’re saddled with all the office housework. So, I really love Cal’s, all of his stuff, but Deep Work for that reason, because I think it has an important message for status, even though that’s not how he talks about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that people really seem to resonate with and connect with, an Allison original gem of wisdom?

Alison Fragale
Strategic and authentic are not opposites, that you can and should be both.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Alison Fragale
My website is a good place, AlisonFragale.com. When you’re on it, I have a free newsletter that I put out on Substack. It’s called “The Upper Hand” and it is behavioral science directed toward helping women advance. But as we talked about today, none of the things that I talk about are ever really only applicable to women. I talk about behavioral science that is tools people can use. So, if people are curious, it’s free. It’s on Substack. I write as often as I can, and I love sharing those kinds of ideas with people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Alison Fragale
Ten, 10, 10. All right. Meet 10 new people. Make 10 small deposits, which is going to be an easy little thing you can do to show up as capable and caring, so, like, an introduction or solve their problems, something you could do that’s easy. Ten people, 10 small deposits, and promote 10 people to other people. So that was that tell them to say the good things that you think, and/or ask 10 people to promote you. Ask them to go build your status. That’s a scarier one that we haven’t talked about yet, but it’s really, really effective.

If you say to somebody, “Hey, person B really respects you. Will you go talk to person B and introduce me, talk me up, etc.?” So, 10, 10, 10. Meet 10 people, show up as capable and caring 10 times, same people, different, doesn’t matter, and promote 10 people, ask 10 people to promote you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Alison, thank you for your wisdom. You are a super ultra mega baller. See what I did there?

Alison Fragale
I did. I love it. I’ll take it. Hey, there’s another thing. One of my favorite studies in social psychology, self-serving interpretations of flattery. It’s why flattery always works, is because people think, “Done to another person that might be considered flattery but to me it’s just accurate.” So, self-serving interpretation, so you can flatter people all day long. They never get tired of it. I love it. You’re amazing.

Aug 08
0

985: Boosting Confidence and Slashing Anxiety through Great Boundaries with Abby Medcalf

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Abby Medcalf discusses how to set firm boundaries and keep negativity from ruining your day.

You’ll Learn

  1. What most people get wrong about boundaries 
  2. How to stop others from hijacking your mood
  3. A trick for dealing with people who are nasty to you

About Abby

Abby Medcalf is a Relationship Maven, psychologist, author, podcast host and Tedx speaker who has helped thousands of people think differently so they can create connection, ease and joy in their relationships (especially the one with yourself)! With her unique background in both business and counseling, she brings a fresh, effective perspective to life’s struggles using humor, research and her direct, no-nonsense style.

With over 35 years of experience, Abby is a recognized authority and sought-after speaker at organizations such as Google, Apple, AT&T, Kaiser, PG&E, American Airlines and Chevron. She’s been a featured expert on CBS and ABC news, and has been a contributor to the New York Times, Women’s Health, Psychology Today, Well+Good and Bustle.

She’s the author of the #1 Amazon best-selling book, “Be Happily Married, Even if Your Partner Won’t Do a Thing,” as well as the newly released Boundaries Made Easy, and the host of the top-rated “Relationships Made Easy” Podcast now in over 170 countries.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

  • Jenni Kayne. Use the code AWESOME15 to get 15% off your order!

Abby Medcalf Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Abby, welcome.

Abby Medcalf
Hey, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to hear some insights on boundaries. Could you kick us off with a particularly surprising, shocking, stunning discovery you’ve made about boundaries that really dazzles people? No pressure, Abby.

Abby Medcalf
No pressure at all. I would say this, that most people think they’re setting boundaries and they’re not. I think we throw that word around a lot. So, I’ll hear things like, “Well, I told the person I didn’t like what they were doing and they needed to stop.” That’s not a boundary. Or, “I told them that I feel really uncomfortable when you talk to me that way. I said that to this person and they kept saying whatever they were saying.” It’s not a boundary to tell someone how you feel. It’s not a boundary to tell someone that you don’t like what they’re doing. That’s not a boundary. So that’s what you’re doing wrong probably first.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, right from the get-go. So, you’re expressing something like, “Hey, I don’t like that. I would like for it to be different.” So then, what is a boundary and how does that sound?

Abby Medcalf
So, the boundary would be “Hey, I don’t like how you’re talking to me. You’re going to need to stop, or I’m going…” and then you have to have what I call teeth or a response if the boundary is not kept. So, not a consequence, you’re not punishing anyone. You are just letting them know what will happen, and there has to be something that happens, and you have to do it, “Or I will leave the meeting,” “Or I will hang up,” “Or I will block you.”

I hope it’s not block. I don’t like people taking very drastic measures, but you want to do something. You have to be clear that, “This is what I’m going to do, period.” So, like, I’ll have someone who says, “Well, I’ve told people not to email me, you know, that my day ends at 7:00. I’ve been very clear, and they keep doing it.” And it’s like, “Well, don’t answer the email then.”

Like, it’s not anyone else’s job to hold your boundary. It is your job. And most people get angry that other people aren’t holding their boundary, but they themselves aren’t holding their boundary. So, really, how are you angry at other people when you’re not even doing it? So, it needs to be on you. You’re not a victim. I get a lot of victim-talk, which is not my favorite, and I talk a lot about that on my own podcast and in my last book.

You’re not a victim in life. You really need to stand up. You need to say what you’re going to do, and then you need to do it. I also say, never repeat a boundary. Once you’ve set your boundary, you just have to do whatever it is at that point.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, we’re in the thick of it right away. I love it. Thank you.

Abby Medcalf

I’m jumping right in.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, could you tell us then, I guess I’m curious, boundaries, they sound handy. So, you gave us a bit of a definition, is that your official textbook line?

Abby Medcalf

You know, yeah, there’s a few lines. Really to understand boundaries, you have to understand that nobody is responsible for how you feel, what you say, or what you do, and that you are not responsible for what anyone else says or does or thinks. And once you get that, because I think the thing I get asked the most is, “Well, how do I talk to my boss and they don’t get upset?” or, “How do I talk to a co-worker so that they don’t get mad at me?” and you can’t.

There is no answer to that. There is no perfect way. You could say the most perfect thing in the most perfect way. We’ve all done it, right? You’ve done it. I’ve done it. We’ve trained ourselves and gone in with all the good tools, and then the person still gets upset. It’s because it’s about them, not you. And so, you have to get rid of that. All you can do is focus on having integrity in the way you speak, speaking.

I call it speaking from love, not fear, like from the compassion part of your brain, and that’s what boundaries really are. I always say boundaries are love, walls are fear. Boundaries are meant to keep people in, they’re meant to keep our relationships moving. Walls are meant to keep people out. And that’s the big difference.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Thank you. Well, so we’re going to dig into a lot of the how-to and the nuances and the verbiage of how this is done. But maybe, could you paint a picture for us, perhaps an inspiring story or some data that would give us a clue as to just how important, useful, transformative, delightful can boundaries be?

Abby Medcalf

I’ve been doing these 40 years, and I work in organizations, and I work with executives, and I work with regular people just in their life. So, whether this is at work or home or anywhere, if you feel at all resentful in your life or helpless or hopeless, you don’t have boundaries where you should, and you’re not holding them.

So, if you want to have peace of mind, boundaries are the answer to feel more peaceful in your life, to have more connection, to have more love in your life, to have more efficacy, to feel more productive. You know how much more productive you are when you have boundaries? It’s unbelievable. 

When you hold the boundaries, what happens is your self-esteem is absolutely raised because you are having greater self-efficacy. You are doing what you say. And in my experience, as I work with people putting out boundaries and holding them, is that they get promotions, they leave jobs and get better ones, they save their relationships in different ways in their personal lives. I mean, your life will become exponentially better once you learn to have them and to hold them. It’s truly the answer to a lot of what you’ve been looking for.

Pete Mockaitis

Exponentially better, the answer. I like it.

Abby Medcalf

Exponentially.

Pete Mockaitis

Can you give us a particular story?

Abby Medcalf

A very simple one is when you say, you decide what your communication strategy will be at work. I think that’s the place that people get the most out of whack. We know from the research that people are working about 50 minutes longer. We know that the days are stretched.

And we know this from emails and when people are answering things and all kinds of different data. But basically, you’re having a longer day, and that’s a problem.

There’s a lot. of wonderful things about remote work and how we’re doing things now that I love, like, people can see a coach or a therapist in the middle of the day, things that you normally couldn’t have done before. There’s a lot of positive things, but the negative things are that folks don’t know when to say, “That’s enough,”

So, one of the simplest things you can do is announce how people can contact you. If you call me on my phone and you got my voicemail, it says, “Don’t leave a message.” It says, “I don’t listen here. If you want to get me more directly, you have to email me and it gets in my email.” So, right there, that’s a boundary. That’s a very simple one, “I’m not going to answer.” That’s the response you’re going to get.

But if you just did something very simple, I answer my emails twice a day. I have set times. People know that. I make sure that’s out in the world when I’m doing a project with a group or whoever, I’m like, “Here’s when I look at emails, these two times a day. And if you need something more immediate, depending on who I’m working with,” it might be Slack or Teams or something else, right?

But when you start to just be clear about, “Oh, I don’t work after 6:00,” or “I don’t work after 5:00,” when you just start to be really clear, that is your first step in the boundary world. But what I have found is that when I’m thinking, like, he was a middle management that I had who was feeling very, which I think is really common, feeling really pulled. His supervisor wanted more, his subordinates wanted more, everybody wanted more of his time. And I think anyone listening knows what that feels like, that your time, everybody’s looking for it.

And he started to really do the things I was asking him to do, and the number one thing I have is a lot of scheduling. Scheduling is my favorite boundary. You know Jim Rohn, I’m sure, like the wonderful Jim Rohn. He always said, “Run the day or the day runs you,” right? Success is scheduled. And so, even that, like when you think about, “Oh, I put boundaries on my time and I’m very clear because I do not answer,” that’s the response if you go outside of that. “But I schedule in when I’m doing things.”

And so, I really got him to schedule more. I got him to, we really talked more. He was always working on something, and he had 50 projects all kind of going, and I was like, “Stop working on things and finish things. So, give yourself an hour to do whatever this thing is that you have to do, or a half hour. Set a timer, do it, and then whatever’s done is done, and then move it along to the next thing.” When you even give yourself those personal boundaries, like, “That’s it. I’m going to end at this time with whatever this is,” you’re more productive.

Anyway, we worked together for about six months, and just from scheduling and creating boundaries around his time like that, he started being a house of fire. He started being so productive. He was also just happier. He felt more in control of his day. I think that sort of took over too, but he got a very coveted position he’d been looking for about two years, after about six months of us working together where I was helping him speak more directly to a supervisor, having boundaries there, asking for what he needed.

People are afraid, “If I set a boundary I’ll get fired,” that’s what I hear the most. And I have to tell you that has not been my experience. I’ve been doing this for 40 years. I’ve been very focused on boundaries for about 15 of those 40. I have yet to have someone fired for a boundary.

Pete Mockaitis

Not once out of hundreds, thousands.

Abby Medcalf

Not once.

Pete Mockaitis

Zero.

Abby Medcalf

Literally, thousands of people I’ve worked with. I have had people, I will say this, like, have a relationship with the boss get more contentious, or a supervisor or a coworker get more contentious because of the boundaries, that’ll happen for sure. Usually, that resolves itself, but I’ve had a few instances where it doesn’t.

But what’s happened is my client has gotten to understand like, “Oh, I don’t want to be at this job. Like, I don’t want to be somewhere where I can’t have a boundary. Like, this isn’t how I want to work anymore. And because I’m not productive in these environments, I don’t feel happy. I’m not satisfied.”

And you know this better than anybody with all the work, you know, with everybody you interview. If we’re not satisfied at work, it’s so much of our lives, what are we doing? So, I’ve had people realize from setting boundaries that they had to leave their job. They had to start really seriously courting another position or getting out of the system they were in completely, which I also see as success, because at the end of the day, you’re still happier and more content.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, so let’s really dig into this statement here, “I am not responsible for whatever someone else does or thinks or says.” And it feels like, I mean, you’re the boundary expert, but, to me, this feels like the holy grail of boundaries. Because if I could really believe that, and have that deep in my bones, and to be true such that I feel a sense of peace amidst whatever reacting rage or whatever someone else is putting out there, then it feels like I’ve won the whole game. That’s my perception. Does that feel accurate, Abby?

Abby Medcalf

It’s 100% accurate. And I would say, for every human, this is the hardest thing.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, well, it sounds like we’re on the same page, but we’re going to really drill into this a lot. So, first, let’s see, not to play philosopher here, but let’s push the boundaries of this definition a smidge. So, let’s just say I say something to you. This is just a role play. Let’s say, “Abby, you are botching this interview and it’s terrible.”

So, let’s just say I say something kind of rude. That’s not how I really feel. So, I say that, and then you, so, let’s say you react sharply, and maybe yell at me, and then I feel bad, and I think, “Oh, boy, Abby is really upset, and I guess I probably shouldn’t have said that to her.”

So, I guess in a way here, I guess I am somewhat responsible for my own. I’m reflecting on my own actions, and saying, “Hmm, those comments I said were probably not…I probably didn’t deliver those in the ideal manner.” So, I may feel some remorse or guilt or regret associated with my behavior, although your reaction is kind of what got me there.

Abby Medcalf

It’s not justified. No, no, no, no. no.

Pete Mockaitis

What’s not justified?

Abby Medcalf

It’s not justified that I have an angry upset reaction to you criticizing me, let’s say, or what I consider criticism. This idea we all have that, “Other people make me upset, or drive me crazy, or up,” that is your choice all the time. I can sit in traffic with my husband, and because I’m from New York City, and he’s from upstate New York, we have very different ideas of what the traffic is. He gets upset, I don’t, and it’s not because of the traffic. We’re sitting in the same car in the same traffic. It is because of my beliefs about the traffic. Do you know what I’m saying?

That’s what’s getting you upset. So, that’s the same thing. It doesn’t matter what you say to me. You feel the way you think, and you are in charge of your thoughts and you have to be in charge of your thoughts, and we know this is the basis of all therapy, is cognitive behavioral therapy, is that we change how you think to change how you feel.

So, a great reframe we know, we talk about cognitive reframing, my favorite and my favorite quote probably ever that I say a lot to myself and others is, “Life is happening for me not to me.” And so, if I thought that, and you said that, I might think to myself, “Oh, I really should ask more questions before I get interviewed,” or, “Oh, what is he…?” or maybe, “Oh, my God, what if Pete’s having a bad day? I wonder if he’s okay.” There are a hundred things I could think or choose to do besides get mad at you and react. Always.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes, and likewise.

Abby Medcalf

Yes, and likewise the way you talk to me, right?

Pete Mockaitis

Right.

Abby Medcalf

But that’s the point. That’s the point.

Pete Mockaitis

And so, I guess it’s true that in this demonstration example, I had some beliefs, and I guess we’d have to do some feels, dive deep to see what they are.

Abby Medcalf

Well, I could do a little psychological work with you there, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis

In terms of, like, “Oh, if people are upset with me, it means I’ve done something wrong.” Maybe that’s a belief. It doesn’t quite sound right.

Abby Medcalf

It’s most people do. Like, that’s what you think.

Pete Mockaitis

But I’ve got a belief in the ballpark of that belief, I think, in terms of, it’s like, “If someone is upset with me, there is a chance that I have done something wrong.” And in some ways, this learning comes from, I guess, life experience in terms of, you know, often as children, we genuinely misbehave, break the rules, are naughty, according to some definition or standard or rubric, and then receive discipline from teachers or coaches or parents or whomever. And so then, we have some learnings that suggest, in fact, “If I’m being scolded or someone’s upset with me, I may have done wrong.” So, if that’s a big one inside us, how do we unpack it?

Abby Medcalf

Again, but there’s a lot of times when people are upset with us and we’ve done nothing wrong.

Pete Mockaitis

Yes, indeed.

Abby Medcalf

Because that’s the day they’re having. And I would say that’s always the case, and what the hell does wrong even mean? If I spill milk because I’m a kid, is that wrong? No, I’m learning how to pour milk. If I fall down when I’m learning to walk, is that wrong? No, I’m learning. So even that idea that we can decide what’s right or wrong, I have issue with.

So, as we’re older, really what people are afraid of is “Other people not liking me, other people rejecting or abandoning me.” This is DNA, getting thrown out of the clan stuff for millions of years ago. And this conflict avoidance, I find, has become, and I think it’s way worse since the pandemic. It’s always been an issue, but it’s a huge issue, this people-pleasing, wanting others to like us, and thinking that being nice means not having boundaries, and that it’s mean to have boundaries. And that’s the big lie that, you know, wrong, faulty belief, faulty logic that people are working from, and we have to shift that.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And so, how does one? So, I guess, here I’m thinking about back to our scenario. I guess for me, since I am all about sort of learning growth and all that stuff and helping people and compassion, I think my “ideal response” would be not so much an emotional one of guilt, shame, sadness, but rather a curious introspective, I was like, “Boy, Abby, really got upset there. Hmm.”

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, “What’s that about?”

Pete Mockaitis

“Might I have communicated that differently or better?” So, I’m not blaming myself, but I’m taking that input as a prompt for reflection without the shame, blame, guilt, yuckiness. And I might conclude, “Okay, next time I’m going to deliver the feedback a little bit differently, and I think that’ll serve both of us better.” And that just feels like a healthy process that feels way less yucky, but we get to the same place.

Abby Medcalf

And that’s why I say boundaries are love and walls are fear. We block people, we cut them off when we’re afraid, but boundaries really are, again, meant to keep people in. We’re trying to create a relationship with them. But I would even say that self-reflection, like, “Oh, I could have said that better,” you know, even that, I would step back even further, and sort of go, “Wow, Abby’s having quite the reaction to that. I seem to have hit a nerve.”

Yes, I could look at myself, for sure, like, be self-reflective, but I could also have compassion for Abby, like, “Wow, I wonder what’s going on there?” because again, I have a choice how I react to that information. So, “Wow, this is really a trigger for her.” If you told me I was, you know, I’m 5’9″, so I’m relatively tall for, I guess, a female. And if someone said, “You’re so short. What’s wrong? You’re so short. You should grow.” If someone said something like that to me, of course, I’d be like, “They’re crazy.” Like, I wouldn’t react to it. I wouldn’t be upset.

But if someone is saying something to me that I think is true, that’s when you get upset. If someone comments on something else, says, you know, I’m old. Maybe if they said, “Oh, she looks really old,” I might be like, “Oh, God, that hurt,” because it feels like something I’m aware of. And that’s the thing to remember, it’s always about us. If someone yelled something to me in Swahili, I don’t know what it means, so I’m not getting upset because I don’t know what they’re saying. Like, it’s really not about the words coming at us. It is about what we understand of them, what we believe about them, what we don’t believe, and that gauges our reaction to it.

If I think I’m going to lose our relationship, if I think it’s going to damage my reputation, I don’t know, like, there’s a lot of things at stake, that make that up. But you know, and you know, I don’t know, you’ve been doing this a while. Like, I get nasty comments under my YouTube videos sometimes or to my podcast or something. And I’m really, thank God, the overwhelming is positive. Really, I have that first initial, like, “Oh, God, I can’t believe someone’s complaining when I’m giving free information. They’ve got to be kidding me. Aargh!”

I’ll do that for a second and then it’s like, “Oh, this poor person. Like, who are they that they’re so mad that there was a commercial in the free, amazing content they were getting? Or that I talked in the beginning, and I introduced Pete, or whatever, you know, too long to them, ‘I had to wait two minutes till you started to get into the…’” you know.

It’s like, “Wow, this poor person, what are they doing?” And I really do feel that. I think, “Oh,” and I try to send a prayer. I never respond, and I just try to send a prayer to them. But, like, that’s a choice that I’m making all the time of how I’m viewing it. So, people do say really nasty things to me sometimes, and maybe to you sometimes, but it’s a choice. about how we respond. It’s always a choice, 100% of the time.

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, that’s really intriguing in terms of, like, we could hear all kinds of things and some of them won’t trigger us or fluster us in the least, like, “Pete, I think your shirt is dumb.” It’s like, “Okay, whatever. I don’t know.”

Abby Medcalf

Sure. Exactly. Right?

Pete Mockaitis

And yet, there could be another context in which it’s like, “You know, Pete, I am shocked that you didn’t take the time to dress appropriately for this event. It seems like you don’t care and you’re not taking this seriously. This is very unprofessional.” And then I’d be more prone to take that personally because I’m like, “Oh, well, I do care about this, and I do care about that person, and I do care about this event. But it just didn’t occur to me that it was business casual. No one told me that.”

Abby Medcalf

But can I actually even, like, to me, that wouldn’t be wrong? Can I even give you, like, to me, the boundary, when someone’s talking to me that way is, I try to be curious and understand, I’m like, “Oh, what is it about when people aren’t dressed the way you think that has you thinking they don’t care? Because, wow, I deeply care, and I have a different idea about how I dress, conveying how I care. I feel like the care is in my words and in my showing up and in my time, for me. What is it for you? Tell me more. Like, what other ways do you not feel heard or seen? Or what other ways do you feel like people don’t care?”

I would want to really want to have a conversation about that, and that’s a boundary I have that I want to lean in to conversations. So, if you have somebody at work who’s really upset with you, let’s say, or is acting nasty to you for some reason, you know how that can be, like for no apparent reason, and, really, it’s incredible, and I’ve had people practice this. I’m telling you it works, is to stop and say something.

Go like, “Are we okay?” But not angrily, with the compassion and the curiosity. “Are we okay? You seem real mad at me.” And I do it in meeting, I do it all the time, and I actually can think. I’m working with a group of vice presidents right now, and the one guy does not like me. He just doesn’t like me. You know, not everybody likes you. He doesn’t like that I’m there. He thinks they’re paying me way too much money. He thinks it’s a waste of time, and he subtly tries to undermine sometimes.

And so, in the meeting, I’ll just, and again, not in a… I’m just like, “You know, I’m not sure what to do. It feels like there’s a lot of anger coming towards me. I’m not sure how to make this work with how angry you are.” And he started to say, the first time I did it, he was like, “I’m not angry. I’m just trying to make a point.” And he, you know, as people do sometimes. And I said, “Okay. Well, how do you feel like we’re connected right now? Do you really like what I’m saying? On a scale of one to six…” one to six is my favorite, by the way, for feedback, because people, there’s no middle, so they have to give you one side or the other.

I said, “On a scale of one to six, six, I’m doing an amazing job, you’re so happy to be here, you love what’s going on, and, one, you think I suck and this meeting sucks, where would you put it?” And he hemmed and hawed for a while, and I pushed and pushed, and finally he said, “Well, I guess a two.” And I said, “Oh, all right. So maybe I’m picking up on that two energy. Maybe you’re not mad. Maybe I’m probably,” I’m saying an emotion, “What are you feeling? Like, what is happening? How can we move forward?” And you start being curious and asking questions and naming what’s going on.

And I’m telling you, when you have those kinds of boundaries, I have a boundary that people, I don’t allow people, I don’t allow the thing to go unsaid. I’m going to say the thing. If someone’s mad or angry or passive-aggressive, I’m going to address it, that’s a boundary I have. I will not sit in the lie. To me, it’s sitting in a lie. But I also am a kind, compassionate person. So, I’m not going to be like, “What the F is wrong with you?”

Pete Mockaitis

“What’s your problem, dude?”

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, “What’s your problem, Bob?”

Pete Mockaitis

“Stop being a jerk.”

Abby Medcalf

Exactly. And I always say, “Would you rather be correct or effective because you can’t be both?” So, if you want to be correct all day and call him a jerk, God bless and good luck with that. But I want to be effective. So, I’m going to ask questions, I’m going to ask collaborative questions, “Could you tell me more about…?” is probably my favorite question whenever we’re dealing with just communication and boundaries, and trying to get to what is,“Could you tell me more about that? Like, what does that mean to you? Could you tell me more?”

And when people start to give you those answers, we start to connect. When we show an interest in where people are, instead of trying to drag them where we are, I go to where they are. I try to understand, go in trying to learn something, not prove something, that old adage, you know. So here I am in that meeting trying to learn something, I’m not trying to prove to Bob that he should like me and how we are. I’m trying to try to learn something, like, “How does Bob tick? And what exact…?”

Sometimes, Bob doesn’t like that I’m female. I can’t do much about that, right? You know, like he doesn’t like maybe, you know, I’ve had that. They don’t like a woman telling them what to do. I’m Jewish and I’m very out about that. Some people hate Jews, you know, it happens. And so, there’s not much there, but I can still try to figure out a way that there might be a way to connect, and sometimes there’s not, but that’s what I’m going to do.

Because no matter what he’s doing, I’m not going to change my boundaries, that I’m a kind, compassionate person who’s curious and asks questions. And that’s the big mistake people make. If someone’s mean to them, they slam the door and they change their boundary. And if someone’s nice to them, then they collapse the boundary. You don’t want to do that. You don’t want to change your boundaries depending on what other people are doing.

Pete Mockaitis

I got you. And, Abby, I’m curious, I think some listeners right now is like, “Wow, Abby’s like a super, super woman, super woman, wonder woman. I want to be like her.” Tell me, have you always been like this or did you have any transformational aha moments that shifted you into this spot?

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, many. I think I’ve had many transformational aha moments. Some of it is just getting older, and I will say that. I don’t know, my 30-year-old self, who’s trying to prove herself in businesses and with these executives and all that, I didn’t feel the confidence I feel now, obviously, you know, at 60, that I did at 30. That’s different. But there is a space. I mean, I think in some ways I’m lucky. You know, I’m a recovering drug addict, which I talk about a lot. I’m a recovering heroin addict.

And one of the things you learn as you’re getting clean is that you’ve got to start being honest. You have to start saying the thing. And what I found over time, through my own therapy and coaching, I’ve done all the things, I’ve walked on hot coals with Anthony Robbins back in 1980.

Pete Mockaitis

I did that, too.

Abby Medcalf

1986, yeah. You know I’ve done EST with Warren Erhard and, you know, Life Spring, yeah. I’ve done them all. And I was on a path to try to figure out how to be more authentic, and how to speak the truth. And what I found is that I just really want to connect with people.

When you’re in counseling school, they teach you that every interaction should be therapeutic. Every interaction is a chance to be a therapeutic interaction, and that’s how I like, even if I’m at the checkout line at the grocery store, that’s how I like to think about it. Like, this could be, you know, I say hi, I make eye contact. I say, “How’s your day going?” I connect.

Because every time, it’s an opportunity to be authentically connected to people, and the more you practice it, the better you get. And the more you realize that you can tell people the truth from a loving heart, again, not trying, you got to follow the rules. Do you want to be correct or effective? You’re trying to learn something, not prove something, right? You have to go in curious. If you don’t go in curious, people pick up.

One of my favorite bits of research is from Timothy Wilson. It’s in one of my favorite books called Strangers to Ourselves, but he’s a very famous sociologist. Malcolm Gladwell loves him, so now he’s been getting some good press through him. But one of the best pieces of research I ever read was his, and it’s that our conscious brains process information at a rate of 40 bits per second, while our subconscious brains, or what we psychologists call your unconscious, our unconscious brains process information at a rate of 11 million bits per second. So, people don’t hear what you say, they hear what you mean.

So, if I’m in that meeting, and I know that Bob hates me, and I’m not saying anything, and I’m just getting frustrated and irritated, even if all my language is, “Well, Bob, please, I’d really love to hear what you have to say,” and I’m doing that, Bob knows I’m full of crap. Just like every single person listening knows that someone has said something to them at work, and they were saying all the right things, and in your head you’re like, “This person is full of it. I don’t believe a thing they’re saying.”

And you can’t say why, you just know. It’s the 11 million bits. So, that is always at work, and I know it’s always at work, so I am working hard to align that 40 and that 11. Do you know what I’m saying? That’s what I’m doing.

Pete Mockaitis

And so then, you’re just saying it’s like, “Hey, Bob, you seem really angry about this. What’s going on?” And then they’re…

Abby Medcalf

“What’s going on? Like, what is it? Are you okay? Are you afraid of change? Like, let’s talk about it. Are you worried about losing your job? Like, what’s the fear? Let’s get there so we can talk about that for real.” And I will tell you, people start to say, “Oh, well, people like you have come in before, and next thing I know, Jane gets fired.” And it’s like, “Oh.” They’ll tell you.

When you start asking, people will tell you, not directly, but they’ll tell you. And then we can talk about that, it’s like, “Oh, do you feel some firing is going to happen? Is that what you’re thinking I’m here for maybe?” And people will get real. They’ll say, “Well, what else are you doing?” “Like, do you want to ask me some questions about what I’m doing? Maybe I haven’t been clear up front. Or maybe I was clear, but your fears overrode the clarity, so let’s do it again. What do you need to hear from me to feel better? What could I say?”

One of my favorite questions to ask is, “If there’s one thing I could say to you right now that would help you have faith in this process, what would it be?” And I’m like, “If I was going to give you a million dollars, Bob, I know you, you’re like, ‘I don’t know’” I’m like, “No, if I was going to give you a million bucks, come on, what would it be? Could anyone else here tell me? If you were to have more faith in this process, what would it be?” That’s a conversation you want to have. That’s team building. That’s coming together. That’s connection.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, so, Abby, what I love is that, like, fundamentally, this takes a grounding of courage, belief, self-confidence, because, I mean, you probably hear about some hardcore stuff, like, “That you won’t take a penny of fees from us until you get all, deliver all the promised results?” I don’t know, like, you’ll probably hear some hardcore stuff, and you’re ready for it.

Abby Medcalf

I do. I am.

Pete Mockaitis

So, tell me, when it comes to beliefs, let’s say we’ve zeroed in on some beliefs associated with, “I need to please people. If people don’t like me, there’s something wrong with me. I’m going to be rejected.” So, let’s say we’ve zeroed in on a belief. We know it’s there. Now what?

Abby Medcalf

Now what? Well, now you do some therapy. No, I’m just kidding. So, now, your job is to practice it. So, you have self-awareness. I speak a lot on my podcast and on my website, I have a lot of free stuff about this, about being more mindful. And when I started doing mindfulness, we called it attention training it’s learning to train your attention. When you’re mindful and in a moment, you can notice what you’re doing and what’s happening.

So that’s the first thing is you have to get more mindful and be in your moment. You have to practice that more. So, you can do something simple like setting a reminder on your phone for three times a day, and when it goes off, anytime you want, 9:00 a.m., 2:00 in the afternoon, and 8:00 at night. I don’t care. And when it goes off, all you do is just check in and notice how you were feeling. And good and fine are not feelings. Okay is not a feeling.

It’s, like, to truly identify, people kind of suck at how they feel. So, to really think like, “Oh, yeah, I’m in the meeting, I’m a little anxious. I kind of want to say something but I’m afraid people will laugh or…” whatever. You’ll start to notice what your thoughts and feelings are. This is step one. And, by the way, mindfulness is different than self-awareness.

Self-awareness is judgmental. Like, I’m very controlling, I’m very self-aware of that, and so I judge that, right? I don’t want to be as controlling. Mindfulness is noticing what you’re thinking or doing in a moment without judgment, with no judgment. That’s the difference. And so, I’m self-aware that I’m controlling, but sometimes I’m not mindful that I’m doing it. it. Does that make sense? I just want to be clear.

Like, I hear a lot of people say, “Oh, I’m very self-aware.” It’s like, “Nah, you’re mixing them up.” And by the way, Tasha Eurich has done a lot of research on self-awareness, something like 85% of people say they’re self-aware, but her number from her research is 10 to 15% are actually self-aware. So just for the record, people think they are and they’re not.

But beyond that, I would say start with mindfulness so that you can notice that, “I’m going into a meeting with Bob, and I know he doesn’t like me, and knowing that I’m going to react to that.” Do you know what I’m saying? Like, I’m noticing I’m feeling anxious about going in the meeting because then I could use some tools to calm my nervous system around that, “It’s okay. Bob is not scary. Bob might not like what I say. I’m okay. Life is happening for me, not to me. Whatever’s happening, as long as I’m coming from a true heart, then it’s going to be okay. Everything is figure-out-able. Everything works out.”

Whatever your mantra is, I don’t care what it is, but have something there that helps to calm you, whatever that is. For me, it’s doing some deep breaths, getting my vagus nerve activated. I have to do that before I go to meetings with these guys. I’m usually in a room with a bunch of men, and there’s a lot of agitation, and I’m often called in because someone’s not doing the right thing so they’re feeling very defensive. So, it’s often a hot room to walk into.

And I’m not immune from people being upset so I have to take a moment, and be like, “I’m here for their greater good. I’m here for the company’s greater good. I’m here for my greater good to connect, to learn, to be better at what I do, to inspire, to motivate. Like, I’m here and I’m going to be fully present. That’s what I’m going to bring.”

Like that, when you go in with your, I call it your calibration with your energy intact, that’s the point of bringing other people towards you, instead of you calibrating to them. I hear that a lot. I’ll hear like, “Well, I was in a good mood, and then I got to work and my boss was miserable, so then I was miserable. He was making me miserable.”

I’m like, “Oh, no, no, no, no. First of all, why do we always assume the bad mood wins? Like, where’s that from? Why does the bad mood win? Why doesn’t your good, huge, amazing, inspired mood win? Because it can, but you have to decide about that. You have to go in with that intact.”

So, when I’m walking in that meeting, I’m intact, and sometimes I just say something right away. I’ll just lead the meeting maybe, and I encourage everyone who has to sit in a meeting to take a minute right before, and just ask everybody, like, “Can we all say what our intention is for this meeting?

And so sometimes that person who talks too much maybe can say, “Hey, well, my intention is to listen more. My supervisor’s been telling me I should listen more. So, all right, my intention is to listen more. My intention is that everyone feels heard and leaves this room feeling like they got seen or something.” Whatever it is, I don’t care.

But when you do that, it brings the energy into the room and it’s very present-focused as opposed to outside the room. Does that make sense? And just doing that will help you do this thing where you can talk to people honestly because you’re starting honest. You’re starting with everybody leaning in.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, Abby, we’re having a lot of fun, covering a lot of stuff. Tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Abby Medcalf

I would say don’t waffle on your boundaries ever. Make sure that you say the same thing over and over. Like, if you say no to somebody, don’t justify, don’t explain. I’m sure people have heard no is a complete sentence. So, when you start to justify or explain, you get into trouble because people will start to have something to push back against, and you just say no.

And make that, if they ask again, say the exact same thing again, “Yeah, I can’t come to the meeting on Friday.” “Well, why not? What’s more important? What are you doing?” “Like I said, I can’t come on Friday.” “Well, what are you doing?” “Like I said, I can’t come on Friday.” Do you see that? Same, over and over and over, like a mantra. Don’t get into it, “I’m just letting you know I can’t come on Friday.” Don’t get mad. Don’t get upset. Don’t take it personally but use that as a thing over and over. So, that’s, I think, what I really want people to hear.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite book?

Abby Medcalf

Oh, well, I named my son Max after Maxwell Maltz, so Psycho-Cybernetics is the book that definitely changed my life.

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Abby Medcalf

It’s the scheduling. I don’t have to-do lists, and I put everything in a schedule. Everything. Phone calls, everything I’m doing goes in a schedule, and that has changed my life and the lives of all the people I work with. And, by the way, this is especially good for people with ADHD. I do work with a large company here with their employees who have ADHD, and scheduling and not having to-do lists and not having stickies is the way to go.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Abby Medcalf

“Don’t sac in your relationships.” Don’t S-A-C. Don’t offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize. Instead, be curious and ask questions. So, try to get through a whole conversation without making a statement, and just asking questions to really deepen a conversation. It’s a game-changer.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Abby Medcalf

Just to my website AbbyMedcalf.com. Everything is there, and social, and all my things. Everything is there. And I’m sure you’ll link to it in the show notes, so that’s the place.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Abby Medcalf

Yeah, I really want you to have a morning practice where you put yourself, before you look at your phone, before you do anything else, before you touch a piece of electronics, that you have some, even if it’s two minutes, some practice where you start with yourself, where you come first, not what everybody else wants, but what you need. So, anything that fills that space.

15 minutes is my goal with all my clients, but I will take two minutes to start, where you just stop, you take a breath, you set intention, you start with that, and then maybe you move into meditations, or visualizations, or journaling, or whatever else, or prayer, I don’t care, but start with something that puts you first and keeps that momentum in a positive place right from the get-go.

Pete Mockaitis

All right, Abby, thank you. This is lovely. Thank you.

Abby Medcalf

Thanks for having me. It was great being here.

Jul 29
0

982: How to Build Trust, Repair Relationships, and Make Collaborations Great with Dr. Deb Mashek

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Deb Mashek reveals the critical factors that make workplace collaborations less painful and more productive.

You’ll Learn

  1. The key ingredients of great collaboration
  2. Why hiring good collaborators isn’t enough
  3. The key questions to kickstart great collaborations

About Deb

Dr. Deb Mashek, PhD is an experienced business advisor, professor, higher education administrator, and national nonprofit executive. She is the author of the book Collabor(h)ate: How to build incredible collaborative relationships at work (even if you’d rather work alone).

Named one of the Top 35 Women in Higher Education by Diverse: Issues in Higher Education, she has been featured in media outlets including MIT Sloan Management Review, The New York Times, The Atlantic, Inc., Forbes, Fortune, The Hechinger Report, Inside Higher Ed, Reason, Business Week, University Business Insider, and The Hill. She writes regularly for Reworked and Psychology Today.

Deb is the founder of Myco Consulting LLC, where she helps networked organizations (e.g., consortia, collaboratives, associations, federations, etc.) avoid the predictable pitfalls of complex, multi-stakeholder initiatives so that they can drive impact and achieve big visions. A member of the Association for Collaborative Leadership, Deb has been an invited speaker on collaboration and viewpoint diversity at leading organizations including the United Nations, Siemens, and the American Psychological Association.

Resources Mentioned

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  • Jenni Kayne. Use the code AWESOME15 to get 15% off your order!

Deb Mashek Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Deb, welcome.

Deb Mashek
It’s a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m so excited to talk about collaboration and/or collabor(h)ation with an H, silent or not silent, but we’ll get into that. But I’d love it if you could kick us off by telling us a super fascinating, intriguing discovery you’ve made about us humans and how we collaborate well and not so well.

Deb Mashek
I think the most interesting finding in my research over the years and then writing the book Collabor(h)ate, is that we’re not taught how to collaborate well. So, it’s critical to our jobs, workplace employers, they demand it, this is what they’re hiring for, they’re expecting us to be great at it, but we’re not actually educated in how to do it.

So, it’s kind of like all these other social relationships we have, whether it’s how to be a good friend, or how to be a good parent, or how to be a good spouse, most of us don’t receive direct education and training on how to do that. The same thing is true for collaboration, and I find that gap absolutely fascinating, that it’s an essential skill. It’s required by workplaces, and yet we’re not learning it in college, we’re not learning it in business school, and we’re not learning it on the job.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we’re not being explicitly directly educated in the art and science of collaboration. So then tell us, maybe in the US professional workforce, roughly speaking, what’s the state of collaboration? Are we generally doing okay, terribly, fabulously? What grade would you give us and why?

Deb Mashek
So, we know from the US Bureau of Labor that people in the United States spend more hours in the workplace working than they do on all other waking tasks combined, so we’re doing a lot of work. And in my research, when I asked people, “Okay, so tell me about your thoughts and feelings about collaboration.” Whether I’m giving workshops or running, facilitating teams, or actually conducting research with people, I say, “What are the three words or phrases that best describes your true feelings about collaboration?”

And people say these really deliciously positive things, like it’s exciting, it’s essential, it’s about possibilities. And alongside that, they list these really negative things like it’s grueling, it’s painful, it’s miserable, it’s horrendous. So, I find that really interesting. And when I was writing the book one of the things I did is send out surveys to a bunch of people who were in the workforce who were collaborating, and I said, “Have you ever been part of a collaboration that was absolutely horrendous?”

And something like seven out of ten or eight out of ten, I forget the exact number, said, “Yeah, yeah, I absolutely have.” And I also said, “How about, have you been a part of a collaboration that was thrilling and positive and amazing?” and a whole bunch of people, I think that one, that was also really high, like seven or eight out of ten, said that as well. So, most of us know the highs and the lows of collaboration.

We know that it sometimes feels amazing, it goes great, I’d call it “collabor-great,” and other times it hurts. We want to get out of it. And those are the relationships, those are the experiences that we come to collabor(h)ate.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m intrigued. So, we’re talking about this on the dimension of the experience of doing it, so certainly we would like to have more positive, fun, enjoyable collaboration experiences. That would be delightful. At the same time, I’m thinking about how sometimes an uncomfortable collaboration is just what the doctor ordered in terms of having a little bit of friction, a little bit of disagreement, a little bit of different perspectives and tension bring us into a place of growth and achieving more than what we could have if we were nicely aligned. So how do you think a little bit about that distinction between the feeling of collaboration and the “true” effectiveness of that collaboration?

Deb Mashek
I think the distinction I would challenge us to make here is that collaborating, should I agree, absolutely involve conflict and tension, viewpoints coming together, figuring out how to optimize across perspectives. That’s different than feeling like your ideas are never being listened to, that the other person is going to take you down no matter what they do, that your outcomes are so tied to another person’s that you don’t trust them or like them, such that, whether you like it or not, they’re taking you over the bridge.

That’s really different because you can have conflict and viewpoint diversity and challenge within a container of mutual respect, of trust, of realizing we actually do have a shared goal in common that we’re jamming toward. And so, pulling those constructs apart, I think, is useful there. I’m curious if you agree.

Pete Mockaitis
I absolutely do. And, in fact, you have a matrix. Tell us about it.

Deb Mashek
I’ve developed a lot of models of collaboration, and there are also just a lot of others out there in the world. And the one that I highlight in the book is called the Mashek Matrix, because why not have a little alliteration? And the idea is this, that if you think about what makes for a high-quality collaboration, there are really two independent dimensions.

The first one is relationship quality. And relationship quality is just your subjective sense. It really is, in your heart, “How good or bad is this relationship with a particular other person?” And, fascinatingly, so my background is as a social psychologist who studies close relationships, and in the close relationships literature, this idea of relationship quality is the most studied construct in the entire literature, which is fascinating.

And we know that – I’m stepping outside of work relationships for a second – we know that in romantic marital relationships, people who have higher relationship quality heal faster and have lower mortality compared to those who have lower relationship quality. So, there’s this whole stress response and the protective nature of positive relationships. When we think about then in the workplace, where we’re spending, again, a whole lot of our waking hours, why would relationship quality not also matter there?

So, this is, anyway, one dimension and it involves things like trust, feeling a sense of interdependence, and, at some point, we can go through all these different ways that you can actually improve relationship quality in the workplace for collaborations. But the point at this stage is just to know that relationship quality is one of these two dimensions.

Now, make another dimension, I go left to right, X-axis on the other dimension of interdependence. Interdependence is the extent to which your outcomes are tied to the behaviors of another person. So, they start to control what resources you have access to, perhaps, or they start to influence it, they start to influence what sort of rewards you’re getting for your work, what sort of accolades, attention, raises, it can be all sorts of things. So, you’ve got these two dimensions, and you can imagine now these two dimensions making four quadrants.

When relationship quality is really, really high and interdependence is high, it feels amazing. This is the quadrant I label “collabor-great.” This is where I know if I toss the ball, you’re going to catch it. We both know our roles and responsibilities. We do it. We trust each other. We have really high accountability. I give you honest feedback on how things are going, and I know that when you’re giving me feedback, I’m not taking it as critique or I’m not taking it as attacking critique, but as challenge that’s going to make me better. So, this is a beautiful quadrant to be in.

In contrast, when you have really, really low relationship quality and interdependence is really high, that’s the quadrant I label collabor(h)ate. This is where we’re miserable because we don’t like the other person, we don’t trust them, and we don’t think they’re doing good work. We don’t think they understand what our needs and interests are. They’re not taking our needs and interests, our abilities in mind. They might be stealing turf. They might be taking credit or placing blame. There are all sorts of really bad behaviors that can bubble up in that quadrant.

Deb Mashek
So then when you have this low relationship quality and low interdependence, for example, what would be the case when someone first joins a team? So, they first joined the organization, they don’t know anybody, they’re not really on any projects yet, so you have low-low. This is, I needed a very neutral word to label this quadrant, and I just labeled it emerging.

There’s potential here but it could either shoot over to that collabor(h)ate space if we start putting people onto super interdependent teams and projects before we’ve given them a chance to build relationships with other people, or it can move in the direction of what I called high potential. So, these are where you already have high relationship quality but you haven’t yet turned the dial to increase the interdependency in those projects and those relationships.

So, any questions about those quadrants before I talk about maybe how to move through them, depending on where your relationship is?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, as I think about the word interdependent, I mean, sometimes that feels structurally just in the nature of what’s up. Like, “I’m more interdependent with my wife than I am with the person at the DMV.” And then we have some level of interaction, collaboration, but much more in my home than over there at the DMV. So, but you suggest that increasing our interdependence is a thing we might want to do. What might that look like in practice as a means by which we increase interdependence?

Deb Mashek
Yeah, so I want to touch on your DMV example first because you do have some sort of a relationship with that person, at least for, I’m going to say, five minutes, but more likely two hours that you’re sitting there. And one of the ideas that you’re starting to touch on there is to, “What extent is a relationship exchange-oriented versus communal-oriented?”

So, when you’re in a more exchange-based relationship, it’s very tit-for-tat. So, I give the bus driver my $3 and they drive me across town, or I pay my gym membership and I get to go use those cool ropey things. Just kidding, I don’t use the ropey things because I can’t figure out how to do it, but theoretically I could. So, those are more exchange-oriented relationships.

Communal relationships, we’re not tracking inputs and outputs. It’s not, “Your turn to take the meeting minutes and my turn to take the meeting minutes.” It’s not about, “I sent around the agenda last time, you have to do it this time.” It’s really about looking for ways to improve other people’s experiences at work, to make little contributions, not because you have to or because it’s your turn, but because you know that, in the long haul, things are going to balance out, that other people are going to be contributing to you in equal measure as you’re contributing to them, and you don’t need to be monitoring this. So, this is a more communal orientation.

And it turns out that that setting up that, you know, more communality is one of the ways we can increase relationship quality. So, I wanted to mention that because the DMV example is so fantastic. Now to the point of, is it good to increase interdependence? The answer is not always.

So, if you’re already in that collabor(h)ate quadrant of the model, or if you’re in that emerging quadrant of the model where you have low relationship quality and low interdependence, you don’t want to jump right in and rev up interdependence by having you engage in more diverse activities together, or making the outcomes more contingent on the other person’s performance, or what would be another one, making you spend even more time together. All those interdependence moves can actually set the situation up for negative collaboration experiences.

So, when do you want to increase interdependence? You want to increase interdependence when relationship quality is already high. So, I know you said most of your listeners are not necessarily in leadership positions yet. Is that right? So, this is really interesting because if you think about when you came on to your job, what did onboarding focus on first? Was it about focusing on, “Here is the org chart,” “Here is, you know, you need to do a deep dive on the projects,” “You need to figure out how to use our project tracking system, our CRM”?

Or did it focus on, “You know what, your job this first week is to go have coffees with everybody else on your team. It’s to figure out what makes other people tick. It’s to give yourself a chance to be known by other people”? Those are all moves that increase relationship quality, and that I advise the leaders I work with to give that space and, say, you’re onboarding for people to know and be known as individuals before they’re just known as an avatar of some role and responsibility. So that’s just some initial thoughts on when you want to increase interdependence.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are cool thoughts on interdependence. Thank you. And I want to talk a little bit about approaches to boost relationship quality. But first, I’d love to get your take on just how much is really possible when boosting relationship quality? I think many of us might think, “Ah, that person’s just a jerk, and I guess that’s what I’m stuck with.” Could you inspire us with a tale of a team that really saw some tremendous strides in boosting their relationship quality?

Deb Mashek
One of my favorite examples of someone who, this comes from the story of a leader, who saw a challenge and this is how they navigated it. So, it was a large international manufacturing firm, and they had two people, so they were cross departments who needed to work together often, but, really, it was an oil-and-water situation. They were not getting along well, and every time they were in the room, the snide comments would start, eye rolls would happen, and there was just friction.

What the leader decided to do was ask one of them, “Would you be willing to move over to this other division for a while?” Then the two people who were oil and water, they were invited to come and do various relationship-building activities, and we can talk about what some of those looked like. So, what you’re hearing here is that they worked on relationship quality separate from interdependence. So, they totally severed, there was no more interdependence. They were in totally different places.

They got to know each other, they got to understand things like, “What do you care about? What variables are you optimizing for in your work?” So, some of us might be optimizing for quality, others might be for on time. Some might be optimizing for, “It’s really important that we engage everybody.” And others might be optimizing for, “You know, it’s important that we get the best decision possible as quickly as possible.”

And what they realized is that the two individuals hadn’t taken the chance at all to understand where the other one was coming from, what their work even looked like, what their roles even were. So, other than, “Here’s your title. Here’s what I think you do.” But they sat down and had conversations like, “Okay, walk me through what your day looks like. What are the pressures? What are you really juggling with? What happens if you don’t do your job? What’s at stake there for you, for your team, for these products that we’re trying to manufacture?”

In other words, it was a whole lot of empathy-building, closeness-building, getting to know, and coming to understand. So, love that story because then what happens is the leader, after it was something like six months, it was like, “Oh, we’re going to do another reshuffle,” brought them back together, and now their relationship quality is actually high, and they’re able to engage in that interdependency with a lot of vibrancy, with a lot of energy, cool ideas coming up. So, I love that story. Can I share another example with you?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh yes, please.

Deb Mashek
So, this one was, she’s actually a friend of mine, Susan, who started a job at an advertising agency, and so she was new and she is a total fangirl of collaboration, so she’s all gung-ho, “You know we’re better together,” and it’s all about “Let’s bring together our strengths, and we can make amazing things happen.” So, she loves collaboration, she’s really good at it, she’s conscientious, all these good things.

So, she joins this team, and within, I don’t know, it was like maybe the first month, it’s time for her to work on the first big project for one of their big clients, and the whole team gets together, they set up their timeline, they say, “Here are our milestones. We’re going to do this. And I’m going to do that. And here’s who needs to do what by when.” So, it was all beautifully laid out. Everybody agreed to this timeline, including her supervisor, John. Everybody was involved in designing it. Everybody signed off on it. Awesome.

So, the first big deadline comes, I think it was maybe a month later, and, Susan, she knocks it out of the park. She has her deliverable in place by Monday, just as planned, and she hands it over and is expecting feedback from John by Thursday. Crickets. She doesn’t hear anything from him. Friday. Nothing. Monday. Nothing. And, eventually, like sometime in the next week, John finally gives feedback, but, of course, now the turnaround time for the big client moment is now just a few days away.

So, Susan has to decide, “Gosh, what do I do here?” because she was supposed to be having weekend plans, and she had to decide, “Do I say I can’t do it because you got your feedback to me late? Do I say I’m going to have to half-ass this and just do sub-quality work, but that’s going to let the team down? It’s not going to show me in my best light, it’s not going to be great for the client? Or do I forego my weekend plans and work my butt off over the weekend to make up for this gap that John has created by not doing what he said he was going to do?”

And she’s the new person, she wants to show what she’s got. So, she changed her weekend plan. She worked really hard. The deliverable went out. The client loved it. Great. Next time there’s a new client, John does the same thing, and of course at this point, Susan’s getting pissed. She’s like, “Why am I giving my all if supervisor guy can’t hold up his end of the bargain and get the kind of input he needs to give in order for us to deliver this big project?”

Now we’re talking about the third big client. This is like a year into the job. Same sort of, or she goes into it as she’s working on the project, she’s not actually giving it her all. She’s cutting corners, and, she’s basically sitting there with her arms folded, looking petulantly like, “Yeah, I’m not going to even invest in this. It’s not worth it because I know John’s going to flake off anyway.”

And so, this example of we’ve got someone who is really, really skilled at collaboration, she’s a rare bird, she’s really, really skilled at this, and feeling antagonistic and checking out. And if I am an employer, I’m also starting to wonder at this point, “Wow, is this person a flight risk? What else needs to happen in order to use this incredible skillset and leverage it for our team, for our clients?”

So, I love that example, too, because it shows that it’s not enough to hire good collaborators. That’s like the first thing you should do, but you also need collaborative cultures, you need collaborative processes, and there are ways of getting all of those wrong.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Deb, I have to know what happened. So, we have three incidents of the same behavior being troublesome and her response or reaction is that, “You know what, forget this. I’m kind of tuned out. I’m not as into it.” So, then what happened?

Deb Mashek
She did the right thing of trying to have the conversations about, “Here are my expectations, or here were the expectations we set together. Here are the behaviors that I observed. Help me understand how you make sense of this discrepancy. What are you going to do differently next time to address this?” And, eventually, I mean, she lasted, I think, two years in that position, and then she was like, “Never mind, I’m going to go to another team.” So, in fact, she was a flight risk.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, Deb, my curiosity is just insatiable. So, I think that’s a fun turn of a phrase, “Help me understand how you make sense of this discrepancy.” If I’m on the receiving end of that message, I’d be like, “Yeah, I’m sorry. I just kind of got overwhelmed with all my other stuff, and I put you in a tight spot and that wasn’t cool and I’m really sorry about that. I’m going to try to make sure I got some space on my calendar so that we’re in a better situation next time. And, by the way, if there’s a day you could take off to try to have some fun on the weekday, to make up for some of the weekend plans shattered, please, take that.” So, anyway, that’s how I would imagine receiving that message.

Deb Mashek
That sounds lovely. That sounds really lovely, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
How did John receive it?

Deb Mashek
I don’t even remember. Honestly, that degree of repetitive, I’ll just call it flakiness because I think that’s what it is, tends to be driven by things like, and I don’t remember how he, in particular, received it, but it tends to be driven by just people are juggling way too many things, or a time pressure issue. It can also be a function of when we decide who needs to give feedback when.

Sometimes it ends up looking like everybody’s trying to be involved in everything, and so he might be overwhelmed in part because too many projects need minutiae sort of feedback as opposed to organizing projects in the first place so that, depending on where they are in development and review, to actually get out the door, you need different levels of feedback.

It could be that he just hasn’t taken his commitment seriously or that he hasn’t thought about the impact of his behaviors on the experiences and ability of his teammates to really shine, to do their thing. I’m a parent, I’m a pet owner, I’ve been a teacher, and what we know, this is like one of the biggest truisms of psychology, is that what gets rewarded gets repeated. And so, I would also wonder about what in John’s learning history has rewarded that sort of behavior? And has there been an absence of negative consequences that, as a result, it’s keeping that behavior in place? Because the same is true of kids, of pets, of students, what gets rewarded gets repeated.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s just sort of our own personalities in terms of, “How profoundly uncomfortable do you find that conversation as a learning experience?” Where it’s like, “Ah! She’s kind of upset. What are you going to do?” You know, like it rolls off the back versus, for me, it would trouble me maybe more than is ideal for mental health and wellbeing, but it would trouble me pretty substantially. And so, do we call that agreeableness, or neuroticism, conscientiousness, maybe a combo of them all? But, yeah, it hit me.

Deb Mashek
It really gets to that point of, “Can we depersonalize feedback and imagine it’s not an attack on the core self? It’s a critique of a behavior.” And I struggle with that too, and I’m always trying to remind myself, “Don’t take it personally. Don’t make assumptions about what this person is saying,” and see if I can separate those, but it’s not always easy. Some days it’s better than others depending on what else is swirling about, and where my energy and focus is.

But I agree with you. That can be challenging feedback to hear. And it can help, before we give that sort of feedback, to reaffirm our commitment to the shared goals first, of like, “This is what we’re after, and this project’s important to me, and I really want to shine for our clients. With that in mind, this discrepancy I noticed, how do you make sense of that? And what can we do differently next time to make sure that you’re able to give your feedback, I’m able to have my weekend, and most importantly, we’re able to really just knock it out of the park for that client?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, tell us, Deb, before we hear about some of your favorite things, could you tell us some of your tippy-top absolute favorite things that are pretty easy but make a world of difference in boosting relationship quality?

Deb Mashek
My favorite one, and I feel like I’m cheating because this is also my favorite quote, so maybe we’ll just skip that part on the favorites, but my favorite one is simply to ask, “How do you see it?” So, what you’re doing there is inviting another perspective in. You’re doing it without ego or commitment to your perspective, and it invites collaboration because it’s like, “Oh, now we show how we’re seeing the world differently and we can integrate that.”

Other things, asking people, listen, I feel so silly even offering this as a suggestion, but I really believe it, “How are you?” And if they ask you that, and you answer that question in less than 30 seconds, I think you’re doing a poor job. So, “How are you?” is an opportunity to let yourself be seen and to be known. And so, when they answer, hopefully they’ll say something other than “Oh, I’m fine” and flip it around. So, it’s that very rote, this is just how we tend to how we tend to respond. We’re, like, trained socially like, “Oh, you just give the two-word answer, and you get out of there.”

But, “How are you?” is an opportunity, if the other person tells you something, to get to know them as a person. It’s an opportunity to follow up with them. When they say, “Oh, gosh, I have just had the most chaotic weekend,” and they tell you that on Monday. And then on Friday, you see them again, and you’re able to say, “Is the chaos settled a little bit? Do you think this weekend’s going to be better?” And what you’ve just done there is you’ve told them “I listened to you. I paid attention to what you said. And I care enough about you as a person to just check in on that.”

And you don’t need to be creepy about it, and be like, “You said you had this at two o’clock on Tuesday. Did that go?” You don’t want to be a stalker about it, of course. But curiosity and genuine interest in other people is a fantastic way to build relationship. That idea that I call the tip, really, here is to bring the donuts. So that idea of investing in the communal good by doing things like, you know, your office mate’s chair is super squeaky, you happen to have a can or a jar, what’s it called?

Pete Mockaitis

WD-40.

Deb Mashek
Yeah, WD-40, and you’re like, just bring it in this week, that way it’s not squeaking, and it didn’t take you any extra effort to do that. I mean, it took you a little bit of extra effort and maybe that person would totally appreciate it. Or when you’re on the Zoom call and you realize that someone’s mic has gone out, just typing and telling them like, “Hey, your audio dropped.” And so, you can do little things just to take care of each other and that increases relationship quality and that empowers that ability to really unlock what’s possible with collaboration.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot, taking, just remembering, or maybe even just jotting it down if you’re inclined to forget over a four-day window about asking for the next weekend, and just to be a little bit more proactive and think. I love that rule of thumb, maybe just because I love numbers, 30 seconds is a good gauge for go ahead and share that much or more in response to the question, “How are you?”

Which, it’s funny, I’m thinking now, it’s like, “Oh, how might I answer it the next time if someone asks?” It’s like, “Oh, I’m doing pretty well. I had a cold for a while, which is really annoying. And so that is almost over, and it feels good to be back in this almost swing of not feeling sick anymore.” Okay. There’s a little bit more than fine.

Deb Mashek
Yeah, and that’s such a great example too, because some people will say, “I don’t want to reveal my inner self or my inner soul. I don’t want to tell people about the divorce I’m going through or how my kid is really, really sick, and is having a major medical. I don’t want to share that.” That’s fine, but the example you just shared, you told us something real and it wasn’t particularly revealing or vulnerable, and it felt appropriate for the podcast where the public is going to hear it.

If you and I were colleagues and we’ve been working together for a year, we might be engaging in deeper self-disclosures at that point. Maybe, maybe not, because it does depend on the comfort level of the individuals. But the idea is that there are ways of being honest and open with other people that are context-specific and relationship-specific that are still really valuable for developing relationship quality.

Pete Mockaitis
And now I’m thinking about it, flipping it to the other side, so there’s, you know, go ahead and disclose. Is there a question that might be more probable to get us a bit more of a self-disclosure response as an alternative to “How are you?” Because in some ways it’s almost autopilot, “How are you?” “Fine.” It’s just like, “I didn’t even think about your question. This is just what I respond to as a knee-jerk reaction.”

Deb Mashek
Can I tell you? I have a 14-year-old and I love talking with him and his friends in the car on the way home from the mall or wherever it is, and I never ask, “How was it?” It’s always, “What was the most surprising thing you saw somebody else do while you’re at the mall?” So, give them something specific to react to, or of the things you purchased, whether it was the coffee drink, “What one brought you the most joy? Why?”

It’s just like, and I’m making these up on the spot. It’s not like I have a set list of questions that I ask, but I avoid “How was your day? How was school today?” It’s usually something like, I might say like, “What’s something that pissed you off today?” or, “What’s something that brought you joy?” or, “How did you make the world a better place?” or, “What’s something you felt grateful for?”

And you can use these in the workplace, maybe not exactly worded like that, but “What’s bringing you satisfaction in your work right now?” or, “What’s something you’re looking forward to over this next quarter in your work or in what the team’s doing?” “Where are you feeling a little frustration or tension that you’re looking to resolve?” And those start to open up some really good conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that so much, and questions are fun. Podcasting, I like questions. And, surprise is a fun one just because we’re getting in. It’s by definition, surprise is almost the most interesting thing that there is, and you can say, “What’s the most interesting thing that happened in the mall?” And it’s like, “Oh, I don’t know.” But you call it surprise, it’s easier to like, “Oh, yeah, this thing, that was kind of crazy,” “The coffee drink is now $8.” “What? When did that happen?” And so, then you’re off to the races, as it were, in that conversation.

And then I’m also thinking about, sometimes I might feel uncomfortable to just go there right away, but other times, folks ask questions that bring about self-disclosure, and yet also have utility for the team or the business. I’m thinking, is it Peter Thiel who has a question something like, “What’s something you strongly believe that 99% of people believe the opposite?” And that’s cool, it’s like you’re going to learn something when you go there both from self-disclosure as well as, “Huh, okay, there’s an opportunity that had never occurred to me. And as an investor, that’s good to have a broad knowledge of such things.”

Or, like, “What’s the most fascinating thing you’ve read recently?” If you’re talking to a group of podcasters, “Hey, what’s a new development of podcasting that struck you?” “Oh, there’s this company called Introcast, which is a really cool way to potentially discover new shows and grow a show on a paid basis, whatever,” and off you.

Deb Mashek
And, honestly, those same questions are fantastic in networking situations, where rather than, “So, tell me what you do,” and people launch into their elevator speech. You can ask instead, “What has your attention? What are you most excited about coming up?” For me as a relationships-person, I see more opportunities to connect in a more authentic way with people when there’s authenticity there.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Deb Mashek
So, back to good questions, you can ask it after the movie, after the book, after the meeting, after the, you know, someone pitched the project. Whatever it is, just, “How do you see it? How are you thinking about this? What strikes you about this?” I love that as a quote and a question.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Deb Mashek
This one, also, my mind’s thinking in the direction of self-disclosure. Art Aaron and his colleagues, back in the day, created this protocol that they call Fast Friends, and it eventually became the study that went viral via the New York Times article about 36 ways, or 36 questions to make you fall in love. These questions were never designed to make you fall in love. They were designed to increase closeness and intimacy, meaning, sense of connection.

And in this study, Art and his colleagues, within the protocol, takes about 45 minutes to an hour to administer, and all you’re doing is bringing total strangers into the room together and staging a series of self-disclosure questions that are reciprocal. So, I’m sharing and you’re sharing. And over those 45 minutes, the nature of the questions escalates in how vulnerable they are asking you to be.

So, for instance, at the beginning it might be like, “What did you have for breakfast this morning?” and by the end, the questions are things like, “How do you think you’re going to die?” Really, like it gets core, some core mortality salient stuff there. But what I love about this study is it gives us empirical evidence of the value of self-disclosure, and it tells us how to structure it.

One of my favorite factoids, and I happen to have been a graduate student in Arts Lab, so it might be one of the reasons I love this study. But one of my favorite factoids is that one of the stranger couples, so they came in as strangers, they were paired together as a couple for this activity. That’s how they met. They eventually got married. So, in that case, they did fall in love. But empirically, what they showed in the study is that people, on average, felt closer to that stranger after just an hour of this intense self-disclosure that a lot of them did to their best friends. So, it’s a real powerful strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
It is. It’s a great set of questions. And though they weren’t made for people to fall in love, I did once do that with a girlfriend on Valentine’s Day, and it was cool. It was really cool.

Deb Mashek
It’s so cool. And not surprisingly, there are so many question decks out there and relationship intervention decks that are focused on this precise mechanism. I love them. I do them too.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Deb Mashek
I love Liane Davey’s, The Good Fight, and it’s about how to fight well in the workplace, and it’s fantastic.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Deb Mashek
I love thinking visually, so whether I’m writing a talk or anything, I like to have the picture of it. So, I have totally fallen in love with these digital whiteboards, like Miro, where it’s just infinite and I can drop pictures and drop links and move things around and have connections. And I have one for every project, whether it’s a personal project or a work project. I love that tool.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be awesome at your job?

Deb Mashek
I never have my phone on. I mean, it’s on but it’s always silenced. There are no notifications. And I do this because I don’t like the idea that other people can be in charge where my attention is, and this is to me such a sacred resource. And so, I choose, you know, kind of a sacred reclamation idea. Like, I have, for a long time been committed to when I decide I want to break, I’ll check my phone. And it is so good because I really get to fall into my thinking, into my doing in a way that my friends say they can’t.

And it does create some challenges and some relationships where some people wish that I was responding to them the second they send a text, but I can’t do it. I don’t want to do it, and I’ve chosen to celebrate my ability to hold my own attention.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m 100% with you, and I do the same thing. And is there a particularly resident nugget, a Deb-original quote, that people really dig and quote back to you often?

Deb Mashek
Yeah, people like, when I’m talking about collaboration, I often say it’s not rocket science; it’s relationship science, and people, really, they like that one. They also like just when I point out that we’re not taught how to collaborate, and it’s a big surprise. It’s difficult and challenging, and it’s learnable.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Deb Mashek
I would go to DebMashek.com or Collaborhate.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Deb Mashek
Be “collabor-great.” I mean, this stuff is so worth it for you and your happiness, but also helping other people unlock their capacity, and helping your team do amazing things, and helping your organization, whether you’re at a non-profit or a for-profit or wherever you’re working, we’re able to do together better, or when we’re able to do together better, we’re really able to have a great impact and change the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Deb, thank you for this. I wish you much “collabor-greatness.”

Deb Mashek
Back at you. Thanks for having me.