Emily Kasriel reveals how to build powerful connections with anyone through her eight-step listening process.
You’ll Learn
- Why every professional needs to master listening
- A demo of the listening approach
- How one question leads to deeper conversations
About Emily
Emily Kasriel has had a distinguished career at the BBC for over two decades including roles as an award-winning journalist, editor and media executive. She developed the Deep Listening approach as a Senior Visiting Research Fellow at King’s College Policy Institute in London, drawing on her experience as an accredited executive coach and workplace mediator. Previously, she’s been a Visiting Fellow at Said Business School at Oxford University, and a Senior Advisor to the Skoll Foundation. An MA graduate of the University of Oxford and Syracuse University’s Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs (as a Rotary International Fellow), she lives in London. An academic paper demonstrating the impact of Kasriel’s Deep Listening approach has just been published (Feb 2025) by the Journal of Applied Social Psychology.
- Book: Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends, and Foes―Transformational Communication, Listening, and Empathy Through an 8-Step Method
- Research: “Deep Listening Training to Bridge Divides: Fostering Attitudinal Change through Intimacy and Self-Insight” with F. K. Tia Moin, Guy Itzchakov, and Netta Weinstein
- LinkedIn: Emily Kasriel
- Website: EmilyKasriel.com
Resources Mentioned
- Research: “Silence is golden: Extended silence, deliberative mindset, and value creation in negotiation.” by Jared Curhan, et al.
- Book: On Becoming A Person: A Therapist’s View on Psychotherapy, Humanistic Psychology, and the Path to Personal Growth by Carl Rogers
- Book: The Examined Life: How We Lose and Find Ourselves by Stephen Grosz
- Book: Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman
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Emily Kasriel Transcript
Pete Mockaitis
Emily, welcome!
Emily Kasriel
Thank you so much. Delighted to be here, Pete.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your book, Deep Listening, and the transformative power of listening. And I think we should kick it off with you telling us your Nelson Mandela story.
Emily Kasriel
Okay. So, this happened just after I started my work as the BBC Africa reporter in Johannesburg. And we were told that a story was unfolding in Pretoria. So, we got into the van and arrived in Pretoria, and there were hundreds of former uMkhonto weSizwe soldiers. These were members of the ANC’s Armed Wing before the new South Africa. They had been integrated into the South African Defense Force, but they were not happy. They demanded to see their leader.
So, they waited, and we all waited and we looked up in the skies to see if the new leader of South Africa would arrive. And, eventually, we had the swirl of the helicopter wings above us. And so, we went to look at the newly erected podium to see what the leader, Nelson Mandela, would have to say, but he wasn’t there.
So, instead, I found him walking amongst the crowds, walking amongst the soldiers, and asking them, “So, tell me, what’s your name? And where do you live? Oh, yes, I know that road. Alexandria Township. Is that right?” “Yes. And the corner of which street? Ah, I know. And tell me why are you here?” And the soldiers told tales of their bad food, of the fact they’d been downgraded their rank in the new South African Defense Force. And at their humiliation of having to serve these white officers who only, months before, had been their former enemy. And Mandela listened.
And only after he spent a whole hour walking along the throng, amongst the throng of these soldiers, did he get back on that podium and talk to them. And he said, “I have heard you. I’ve understood your grievances,” and he outlined them. And then he said, “And now is the time for discipline. You need to go back to your barracks because we need to build the new South Africa.” And the soldiers, quietly and peacefully, walked back to their barracks.
And it was such a profound moment because it subverted the sort of whole power hierarchy of who should talk and who should listen first. And that very respectful, deep listening that Mandela exhibited with his soldiers, with his comrades, really impacted on them because they had felt heard. They had felt truly listened to.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is so powerful. And what’s getting me here is he did not grant their requests, make their wishes come true. They were good and rankled up when he arrived. And so, the listening alone and acknowledging that they had been heard was sufficient for them to persist in some unpleasant conditions.
Emily Kasriel
Yeah, no, absolutely right. And the research really backs that out because we’re all so longing to be heard, and we’re heard so rarely in life. And when there is anybody who hears us, particularly if they are in a position of power, or we care about what they think and say, this really affirms our own dignity. It makes us feel respected and, therefore, we’re going to be in a far better place to listen to them.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Well, tell us a little bit about this research about the rarity of being listened to and the impact of when we do receive that.
Emily Kasriel
So, in 2022, we conducted an experiment because, for the BBC’s 100th birthday and with the British Council, we recruited a thousand people in hundred countries in order for me to train them virtually over three weeks in deep listening. And this was a really diverse group of people. The countries most represented were Malaysia, UK, New Zealand, and Iran. Very diverse group of people, but all speaking English.
And so, I thought, “I’m not doing something that scale without seeing if it actually worked.” So, I reached out to some academics and we established a control group who had a very difficult conversation about a matter they disagreed with, with no training, and we compared their experience with the group who had been practicing deep listening and then had a similar difficult conversation. And the results have just been published in the Bedtime Reading, not Journal of Applied Social Psychology.
And it evidenced that, when people practice deep listening, they felt safer to express themselves and genuinely understood. And they felt a greater connection with their conversation partners, even though they came from such different countries. And this bit, the third bit is the most critical, they became more open to re-examine their own attitudes, which really is a bolster to what happened with Mandela.
Because once the soldiers felt heard, they then were able to see that bigger picture. They were able to understand that more than one perspective may be possible, and that is so exciting. Because I think one of the reasons that we really fear listening is that we think, if we listen, we’re going to have to do what people want and, therefore, we close them down. We fear that if we listen, we’ll be contaminated by ideas that we might find abhorrent. And so, we shut our ears and we close people down.
And once people realize that real listening doesn’t mean agreeing, doesn’t mean obeying, doesn’t mean that we get contaminated by ideas, somebody said to me in one of the trainings, they said, “You’ve given permission for me to listen to difficult ideas.” And I thought that was so interesting, like, “Who was I to give permission? Anybody can take that permission for themselves.” And it is so exciting once we realize this. It’s freedom.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, all that sounds really excellent. So, why don’t we all do it all the time?
Emily Kasriel
Well, there’s many traps that get us caught in deep listening, “I don’t have the time.” So, when I’m working with a business people, that’s the number one trap because we’re waging a campaign for completion. We don’t have time to hear all the details. That is the most cited obstacle. But cutting people off before they really have time to explore ideas, stops people from sharing critical information, stops them feeling heard, stops us understanding them.
So, let me give you a work example. Let’s say if your boss says to you, “Is it okay if you take on a piece of work?” And you say, “Sure, yeah.” And your mouth is smiling, but not your eyes. And you go, “Great. Fantastic. Two weeks, that will be fantastic.” How do you feel? Whereas, in fact, you could actually try and listen to what they’re really saying, and say, perhaps, “Ah, you’ve said yes, but, at the same time, I’m getting a sense that perhaps there’s too much on your plate and you already feel overloaded, and maybe you don’t feel comfortable saying no.”
Suddenly, you can have a real conversation, which enables you to either do the work or take off another task or, you know, it’s a genuine conversation. You’re going off script. So even though people say they don’t have the time, not having the time prevents people from expressing worries, prevents people from having real meaningful relationships.
And then there’s another thing that stops us from listening, because a lot of us feel a pressure, “I want to win. I need to win. I need to prove that I’m right.” We look out for any chink in our opponent’s armor, anything that can be exploited. And there’s another thing that a lot of us feel, which is that, “I am in charge.” We might see our role as the leader who instructs, who explains, who adds value, who provides a solution.
So often when we listen, and actually this is more men than women, we think that our role is to provide a solution so we cut people off and tell them how to sort their problem out, whether it’s our partner or our colleague. And, in fact, we’re depriving them of agency and stopping them coming up with their own solution, which they’re far more likely to implement.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, so, can you lay it out for us, how do we do this? You’ve got an eight-step approach. What are the steps?
Emily Kasriel
So, the first step is about creating a space. So, this is both a kind of metaphorical space, a space where you feel centered. I just took a little sip of tea there to center myself, but it’s also a space where the speaker feels a sense of psychological safety. So, if you’re in an open-plan office and you want to find out about why your team worker hasn’t completed their part of the task, not so good in the open-plan office, even if there’s a glass screen.
It also is about lighting. Harsh overhead blue white light, not so good, makes us feel stressed. Far better are side lights, especially with a longer spectrum, a sort of yellowy warm light makes us feel more relaxed.
And a bit of wood or a bit of material can absorb some of the sound waves so there’s less echoes so people can hear more clearly. Particularly important if one of the people who is speaking or listening is older or has a hearing impediment.
So, step two is about listening to yourself first, because you can’t really be open to listen to someone else until you’ve done some listening to yourself. Perhaps the person you’re speaking to, you’re not actually listening to them as an adult. Instead, you might feel five, age five, because they’re reminding you of a bullying older brother that you’ve had.
And so, until we do take that step, and figuring out our own skin in the game, what’s our real agenda, we can’t really be in a place to truly open ourselves up to the other person. And I would say that this isn’t for every conversation. I mean, if I were to ask you, if you wanted a cup of tea and you were to say to me, “Hmm,” and really listen, that would be totally weird, yeah? We’re talking about deep listening for the conversations that really matter.
So, step three is about being present, about taking the time, and it might be only one breath in and one breath out to center yourself. Because if you can be centered, the person speaking will feel far more open to be relaxed themselves and to be able to talk more authentically about what’s really going on for them.
And that’s why being centered, it’s so important to deal with the worst external distractions, our phone. Not just no notifications, not just with a black screen, even out of sight, because there’s research that evidences that even the sight of that screen will distract us because we feel pulled, the gravitational pull, all those brilliant, well-paid minds who learn to allure us away.
And then there’s internal distractions, like, “I really want to listen to you, but I’ve got to go home in time to pick the kids up,” or watch the game, or whatever. So, being aware when those distractions come up and becoming present, again, can be really effective. And then step four is curiosity. Be curious because so often, when we listen, we assume we already know what the person is going to say.
So, what we’re doing is preloading our verbal gun with ammunition, ready to fire about with our next question or our next comment, or we just go through the motions and listening is performative, “Yeah, yeah, I get you. Yeah, yeah, I understand.” And the person knows it.
And, instead, if we can assume that we don’t already know what they’re going to say, if we can be truly curious, that allows the speaker to share something, which makes us more curious and then even empathetic, like understand a bit more what it’s like to be them. And from there can grow respect. And what’s important is respect for the person, for the humanity of the person, not for what they’ve just shared and whether or not you agree with them.
And step five is the gaze. Now it’s quite hard on a Zoom call or a Riverside podcast chat like we’re having. So, I’m trying to look you in the eye at the camera, and I can’t quite see your body language. It’s difficult, although I have shrunk your image and put you directly under the camera to make it a little easier. But so much easier in person, if we can really maintain our gaze on the speaker.
And this gaze is not like a Foucault gaze, you know, Michel Foucault, the French philosopher who talked about prison wardens making prisoners feel perpetually enslaved because of a really horrific glare. This is a much warmer empathetic gaze, which the speaker will often go silent and look elsewhere. But the fact that you’re holding them, you’re looking at them as they continue the journey means they’ll have far, far richer thoughts.
And then step six is holding the silence. And when I train people in deep listening, silence is something that they, without exception, tell me how uncomfortable it is when they get to practice deep listening, because I invite them to use, you know, five, 10 seconds, even more of silence after the speaker has finished speaking.
And yet when I catch up with them later, a month or two down the line, they tell me this is the element of deep listening which has made the most difference to their lives because in silence, it allows so much to happen, not only for the blood pressure and the heart rate of both you and your speaker to kind of calm down, but also for your speaker to think new thoughts.
If you think of a companionable silence where you don’t have to fill in all the gaps, and I know this is can be hard. But it takes a little bit of practice. And to encourage you, there was a paper that came out in 2021 called “Silence is golden.” And it did experiments with two sides of a negotiation.
And it found that, when both parties were instructed to use 20 seconds of silence, number one, they never got to 20 seconds. They rarely got above 17 and a half seconds. We always overestimate silence, particularly the listener. But more significantly, they came out with many more win-win situations when both parties benefited rather than zero sum, “If I win, you lose.”
And then this also leads us, because silence has another factor, which is that it allows you, the listener, to make sense, not only with your mind, but with your heart of what you’ve just heard. Because step seven is reflecting back. And you may have been on active listening courses where you say, “Yeah, yeah,” you reflect back, you paraphrase, you go through the motions. It’s performative.
Deep listening reflection is much more authentic and it’s about using the whole of you to figure out the real meaning of what the whole of your speaker has shared. And so, you say, “Hmm, I think what you said…” and you must include not just the words, but the notes between the words and their emotions, whether or not they’ve expressed them in words.
The research shows that if I don’t include what you are feeling about what you’ve shared, you won’t feel heard. And it’s then the speaker’s opportunity to say, “Yeah, you know, you haven’t quite got it.” So, one question you can ask is, “Tell me more,” or they’ll say, “Yes, and…” and they’ll go deeper.
And this brings us to the final step of deep listening, the deeper narrative, step eight. Because this is really about the values and the motivations of your speaker. And, in my book, Deep Listening, I go through all sorts of clues you can use to really unpack what’s going on for your speaker.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, thank you. There’s so much I’d like to follow up on here. So, let’s just see, a couple of finer points. So, create space, listen to yourself, be present, be curious, hold the gaze, hold the silence, reflect back, go deeper. Now when it comes to listen to yourself, if you say, “Hey, this person is reminding me of a bully,” right? So, you’ve figured that out, which is great. You’ve identified a dynamic that’s present.
Well, then what? What do we do once we notice something within ourselves that we say, “Ah, this is probably not ideal to be in the mix for great listening”?
Emily Kasriel
That’s such a great question, Pete, because the very first step is noticing, because when we don’t notice, so we don’t think that we’re listening to our bullying older brother, we think we’re listening to that individual and he is evil.
And it’s when we don’t acknowledge them that they’re at their fiercest. I would say that if you’ve experienced trauma, starting to do this shadow work without support is perhaps not the best idea because it is difficult. It’s a life work of a lifetime for all of us to understand ourselves more clearly.
But, first of all, even identifying that that person reminds us, and it is possible to acknowledge that and then put it aside and recognize that the person opposite speaking is not our elder brother, can itself be very, very freeing. And it might be that we need to think of ways if, for example, during that conversation with that individual, we feel ourselves getting defensive and stressed out, then we can choose an anchor before we start the conversation. Something that makes us feel safe inside.
It might be the idea of a beautiful place in nature or somebody who really loves us or stroking a favorite pet. Having these little anchors to help ground us can be really important.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s great. Thank you. And so, when we hold the gaze, we do so in a way that’s friendly and not like a prison guard. Good to know. I mean, how long is too long?
Emily Kasriel
I think that, as long as it’s not rigid and like, you know, as long as it’s warm and you’re listening, and it does mean you can turn aside if you’ve got a crook in your neck, it’s all about being authentic. I think that the intention and authenticity is the most important thing, because what’s behind your work as a deep listener is what your speaker will sense.
So, rather than feeling you’re performing anything for any amount of time, it’s about being curious and empathetic and wanting to know more. And the gaze is important, but what’s more important about is what’s behind that.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then with the silence, you did mention that folks were challenged to do 20 seconds of silence. Is that optimal in some sense?
Emily Kasriel
I think 20 seconds is an awful long time. If you were actually to time it, I think most people would find, and as I mentioned in that experiment, which they did with many, many people, almost no one held the full 20 seconds of silence because we always overestimate. You’ve got to figure out what works for you, and it does depend on your culture, on your relationship, on the other person.
And I do think, though, that you can get better at silence. So, at the beginning, I would just try three seconds, four seconds, and see how that feels. And you may choose to share with your speaker that you’re practicing a bit of silence or not. It’s all about being real and in the moment and being open in your heart.
Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And I suppose, if you’re going with a longer silence, you probably want to give them that kind of a signal in terms of, “Hmm, I’m thinking about what you’ve said there.”
Emily Kasriel
Yeah. You could well do that, yeah, you might do that. But often, what’s interesting, is when I train people, it’s often the listener who worries more about the silence than the speaker.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. Okay. And then with reflecting, we’re reflecting both the words and the emotions. So, even if they didn’t say the emotions, you’re suggesting a best practice is to go ahead and venture out to infer what we think they were.
So, as I am reflecting the words and then also venturing to infer the emotions there, is it better to do this even if occasionally we get it wrong, and say, “No, no, I wouldn’t say I was frustrated so much as disappointed”? Like, if they give you that correction, are we still, I guess, net positive having ventured and gotten it wrong than to not have ventured at all?
Emily Kasriel
I’m so pleased that you asked that question because it’s really, really important. Of course, we can never really know about what’s going on in another person, particularly about, for example, an emotion that they haven’t expressed in words. And so, whenever we are offering something back in that case, we are venturing because it’s not just the emotions. It’s also about what’s really at the core of what they’ve said.
And it’s absolutely fine to get it wrong, as long as you realize that you’re reflecting back with humility. It’s like you’re borrowing some beautiful finery that’s not yours. You’re trying it on for the first time, and so you’re saying, “Well, I think that you said this and I’d sensed that you feel this,” because it’s through their correction that they can understand themselves better and also then share that with you.
It’s that process of getting to the deeper core of what they really mean. And they often do it through you getting it wrong as much as you getting it right. Because the whole idea is it’s in service of the other person, understanding and expressing themselves more clearly.
Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And I’m imagining, as we’re getting our first practice reps in of venturing to identify the emotion, it’s probably safer to go with not the most intense emotions, “So, it sounds as though you were enraged or flabbergasted or desolate.” Like, if they are enraged, you’ll know it.
Emily Kasriel
Well, I think what’s most important is that it doesn’t come with judgment. So, if you were to say to them, “Huh, it sounds like that you were pretty desperate,” they’ll feel that you’re making a judgment about them. I think what’s more important is to deliver these thoughts about what you think they’re feeling with humility and without judgment so that they don’t feel judged.
Because we know as soon as we feel judged, our defenses go up and we stop sharing openly and authentically, and stop being able to think new thoughts. And that’s one of the things that’s so exciting about deep listening. And I know that from my own work as an executive coach, that when you really listen to somebody else, they’re able to have thoughts that they didn’t ever imagine before. And I think that’s one of your ambitions as a deep listener, not just to provide a space for them to recite old ideas, but to create new ones.
Pete Mockaitis
And so, that non-judgmental piece, I think, plays through everything. And now I’m just thinking about our own tone of voice within which we say all things can suggest judgment in terms of, it’s like, so if I said, “So you were confused by the website,” which means, like, even that tone, that’s not too intense of a tone there, but it suggests judgment in terms of, like, “What kind of an idiot are you if you found this website confusing?” even though the tone can be subtle. Do you have any pro tips on that?
Emily Kasriel
Yeah, I think it’s such a good point. And tone of voice, actually, when you’re trying to understand more about what the speaker is saying, tone of voice is far more reliable than gestures or facial expressions, the research evidences. So, tone of voice is a very powerful way that we communicate. I think about, again, when we’re thinking about our tone of voice, it’s wise to think about our intentions. Are we feeling judgmental about the other person?
Because, actually, often, we get most irritated with people who remind us, in some way, of our own weakness. And once we can acknowledge that perhaps we feel embarrassed that we are confused about websites, that’s why we’re being so judgmental about the other person, we can let that go and then be able to say to them, “So I sense that you felt a little confused using this website. Is that right?”
And it’s the same words, but you aren’t judging them because you understand that their life experience is different to yours. And, therefore, you don’t really have a right to judge them on some level.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, yes, let’s do a demonstration now.
Emily Kasriel
Okay. So, Pete, let me ask you, what food reminds you of home?
Pete Mockaitis
Well, what first comes to mind is a whole meal in terms of I’m thinking about childhood dinner at the round table. And we would have this plate, which had a big heart on it. It said something like, “Today is your special day,” which would be given to whoever’s special day it was, like, if it was a birthday or graduation or some sort of achievement or something. For one reason or another, it was your special day.
And then, you know, my sweet mother would ask what I would want to eat on this special day. And for a good while, I had a meal, which was fried chicken, mashed potatoes, broccoli, and cheese sauce. So, that meal in its entirety was, it’s my special day meal. That’s what I wanted, and it was perfection. And I was a pretty skinny kid. I wasn’t a big eater except when it was my special day and it was my meal, and I just went to town.
Emily Kasriel
So, I’m hearing you say, Pete, that that round table and that special round dish, your special day was that sense that your mother was creating this whole meal. It wasn’t individual. The whole point was that it was everything together that made you feel nurtured and loved and celebrated and able to just really tuck in, even though that’s not something you would normally do, because it was everything coming together.
You spoke about the wholeness of it and feeling whole, and that even now you were really there, I sensed, when you were talking about it. And it just gave you a really great grounding to feel in that space of love and safety. Is that right?
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.
Emily Kasriel
And tell me more.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s dead on, yeah.
Emily Kasriel
And so, I sense it’s a kind of longingness and yet also a joy when you’re able to go back there in your mind as a kid again.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, it is, it is nice. And it just makes me think about how I should probably be more proactive in asking my own children now about what would make their meal or day special because that was such a lovely time and experience and memory in my own childhood. And I don’t think that I’ve been very intentional in trying to provide that for my kids. And why the heck not? You know, we got to eat something. Let’s make it special.
Emily Kasriel
And so, it’s a realization now as an adult of that love and sense of recognition that your mother gave you of making that whole fried chicken, mash, broccoli, you know, everything and cheese sauce that you loved, and the sense that perhaps there’s a gap between you not quite fulfilling that, but still have the potential to give that to your children today.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes we’ve gotten into a little bit of a grazing groove in terms of whenever they’re hungry, they eat whatever’s there, as opposed to really stopping, pausing, and being deliberate about creating an experience.
Emily Kasriel
And so, this conversation, perhaps, is providing you with an opportunity to do more of that for your own children, something precious that you can gift them as a gift, the same way your mom gave you. I had a sense that it sort of nurtured you and given you a confidence, that feeling that you were special and unique.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it totally did.
Emily Kasriel
So, roughly, how many questions did I ask you there?
Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I wasn’t counting. Maybe five-ish.
Emily Kasriel
Yeah. Actually, I just asked you one question, “What food reminds you of home?” Now, as a journalist, I had loads of questions. I wanted to know where you grew up, where your parents came from, what state, or do you have siblings? I could have asked you a billion questions, and had I done that, I would have gone down my avenue where I was interested.
And, although, I sensed you were a bit reluctant to tell me too much, there was a sort of privacy, a kind of, “I’m going this far and no further,” I did get a sense and I feel I know you more and I feel more connected to you because of what you did share on your own terms of where you wanted to go. What do you think, Pete?
Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, think that’s a fabulous illustration there in terms of “How many questions did I ask you?” I said five, you said one. And so, because, exactly the path of the follow-up questions is going deeper, yeah, I guess that’s the main insight for me is that you could very much have gone in any number of directions. And I think that’s often what we do. It’s like we are interested in what we’re interested in.
So, Emily, if you had a woodworking hobby, you’d be like, “Oh, round table, huh? Was that like an oak or a walnut or…?” Right? And so, it’s laughable because, like, “The point wasn’t the table. That’s not what we are getting at.” And yet, I think we do that all the time in terms of, “Oh, your mom, huh? Okay, so was she a full-time homemaker? Did she work as well?” Because maybe that’s what you’re into is careers or women and empowerment and having it all.
Or, maybe you’re into cuisine, like, “Okay, so what kind of cheese sauce we’re going with? Is that more of a cheddar or a Velveeta?” And so, I think people do that all the time. But in contrast to what you’ve done in this context as we’re chatting, it feels like, obviously, night and day, the wrong way to talk to people so that they feel heard and connected with is the, “Huh, let me dig into the piece of what you said that I find most interesting,” as opposed to, “Let me dig into the piece of it that seemed most meaningful to you, speaker, as one who has said it.”
Emily Kasriel
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And your illustrations are really fun of where we could have gone down. And especially as journalists, we love to think of ourselves as coming up with these great questions. Even as coaches, when I was delivering this training to a bunch of executive coaches, they said, “It’s so much of a relief because I feel like I’m not listening because I’m trying to come up with this brilliant killer question,” which will help the coach client unpack what they really mean. So, you’re absolutely right.
But I wouldn’t be too judgmental. I mean, it’s not that you can never ask interesting questions where you’re curious, because I think deep listening is something that you can sprinkle in conversations. You can try as you learn more about the steps to use more of them, but it’s not all or nothing. And the one question I did ask, actually, I did ask two questions, was, “Tell me more.”
Because I sensed you were being a little bit closed, you kind of didn’t want to go further. And what’s good about the “Tell me more” question is that the speaker can define what more is rather than you, the listener saying, “Tell me more about the wooden quality of the table,” or whatever.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. Thank you. Well, Emily, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?
Emily Kasriel
I think that there’s so much loneliness in our society. So many people are not being heard. And if we can deeply listen to them, we can do something to make a dent in loneliness and also in polarization, which we know is tearing America apart because we can listen to people who think differently to us at work or at home.
And let me tell you a little quick story about loneliness, I think, really, which was a little while ago, I was visiting the pharmacy to collect drugs for my daughter. And there was a lady sitting on a plastic chair waiting for her own drugs. And the pharmacist asked me, what was the birth date of my daughter. So, I said, “Third of July 21.” And she looked at me, “Are you sure?” And then I thought for a moment, I said, “No, no, third of July, 2001.” And the lady on the chair started laughing at me.
And she said, “Wait a minute. How can you not know the birth date of your own daughter? What’s going on there?” And I said, “You know, you’re quite right. That’s pretty silly of me.” So, we started to have a chat, and she told me, we’re talking about birth dates, about her grandmother who’d recently, in her nineties, reached a milestone birthday and how proud she was. And she said, “Yeah, I’m really proud.” And I said to her, “I sense that you’re proud, but there’s also something else going on.”
And she said, “Yes, I think I’m going to die before my grandmother.” And then we talked more, and she shared about her condition and she started crying, and then she apologized for crying. And then we had a laugh and then I walked away. And I had a sense that she needed to be heard.
And it was only because I was mindful in that moment, which I’m certainly not always am, to be able to pick up on the sort of nuance in the word proud, and also maybe that I’d made myself a bit vulnerable by making that silly mistake about my daughter’s birthday and not being defensive and having a laugh about it, but she felt safe to be vulnerable too.
And if more of us can practice deep listening to those around us, to our kids, to our family, to our colleagues, and even to strangers, what a difference we can make to the world. And for me, that’s really inspiring. And I really hope that people feel inspired to practice and would love to know about their adventures in the wild.
Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?
Emily Kasriel
So there was one experiment which was measuring people’s attitude extremity, how fiercely they felt. And it came out that, when people felt truly heard, they dialed down their attitude extremity, where the people were talking about organ donation or Palestinian Israeli prisoners or really controversial topics.
And to me, that is so important in that way in terms of combating polarization, that when people feel heard, they’ll be more likely to be able to listen to other perspectives.
Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?
Emily Kasriel
I think this book, Carl Rogers, I’ve been so influenced by this psychologist, On Becoming A Person. But I also really enjoyed Stephen Grosz, who’s a psychoanalyst, The Examined Life, about listening in that way.
And then Daniel Kahneman, who I knew and very sad to have lost him, Thinking Fast and Slow.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool?
Emily Kasriel
I find the Waking Up app really great because I think to be able to practice mindfulness, not when you’re in the middle of a difficult conversation, but other moments, allows you to be more present in the moments when you are having a difficult conversation and when you really need to listen. And what’s so great about Waking Up is that there are so many different, brilliant thinkers on that app.
So, I’ve learned about so many people. So, for example, Loch Kelly, who I interviewed in my book, who’s a fantastic meditation teacher and psychotherapist. I learned about just from listening to him on the Waking Up app.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?
Emily Kasriel
I like cold water swimming in Hampstead Ponds even when it’s cold. So, I do it throughout winter, which is kind of crazy. But for me, being able to get in the cold, even when it feels like crazy and frightening, kind of means that I can do anything for the rest of the day.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?
Emily Kasriel
So, you can go to my website, which is EmilyKasriel.com – Kilo, Alpha, Sierra, Romeo, Italy, Echo, Lima – EmilyKasriel.com. You can follow me on LinkedIn, or you can buy the book where I’ve given an awful lot of myself in it. And I hope that you will enjoy it because it’s got some lovely stories and illustrations and a lot of ideas of how to practice deep listening.
Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?
Emily Kasriel
So, number one challenge is to find somebody you feel really relaxed with, you’ve got a great relationship with, and just try and practice some of these eight steps. And then, when you get a bit more confident, then choose somebody who you don’t agree with, then have a deep listening practice with them.
And I should say that when you reflect on these practices, even if you weren’t able to deeply listen, the very intention is a fantastic first step. So, don’t be too judgmental on yourself. Just ask yourself, “What have I learned for next time?” And you might even want to ask the speaker for feedback what did it feel like to be listened to by you?
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Emily, this is beautiful. Thank you.
Emily Kasriel
Thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure to talk to you, Pete. Thank you.