1093: How to Become Powerfully Likeable with Dr. Kate Mason

Pete Mockaitis
Kate, welcome!

Kate Mason
Thanks so much for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be chatting, and I want to hear, first and foremost, about you being a world champion debater. What’s the world champion of debate look, sound, feel like?

Kate Mason
Well, it’s a nerd convention that I went to when I was in high school, and I continued debating in university, and it’s basically the best people in the world come together and debate together. It’s brilliant.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And so, I’m thinking, back in high school, I did some speech individual events and I thought it was a ton of fun. But world sounds so hardcore because I didn’t even make it to the state finals. So, what do world champion debaters, what’s the vibe like when you’re in their midst?

Kate Mason
It’s pretty intense. You tend to study up on global affairs and lots of issues in the months preceding debates, and you know that there are going to be different categories of topics. So, there’s one like on sports and one on politics and one on social justice.

There’s usually categories and then you just practice as many at-bats and practice debates as you can in the lead up. And then it’s actually just a ton of fun. You meet people from all over the world and you get to of compare and contrast your different cultural styles and ways of doing stuff. It’s really fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it’s a fascinating backdrop to, we’re talking about your book, Powerfully Likeable, in terms of being a world champion debater. That’s something that seems pretty helpful there because you need to be powerful. Like, you’ve got very persuasive points, they’re hard hitting, they are data-driven, they are logically sound and cogent, they fit together, and they got some oomph. But, also, there’s human beings and judges that you kind of got to win over and have think, “You know, I like this person.”

Kate Mason
Absolutely. So, debate is always marked on your matter, so what you present; your manner, how you present it; and your method, the way you’ve structured and made your arguments sort of cut through. And I’ve always taken that perspective through all my corporate work as well. Even though it’s not marked in exactly the same way, I think about those same components always operating together.

And you can feel that, too, if you’re in a meeting that’s really well-run by someone. Chances are they’ve structured it really well, they’ve said something really well, but they’ve also said it in a way that’s persuasive or sort of spoke to you. So those are the three things I always keep in mind and have always been pretty ingrained in me for a long time.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, being powerfully likable sounds like something that I want and many of us want. Can you share with us, for starters, a particularly fascinating discovery you’ve made about humans who are powerfully likable? What’s going on there? Any key surprises that you’ve uncovered?

Kate Mason
Yeah, so I think when you think about leadership, or when many of us think about leadership, it feels like you can only choose through two options, right? It feels like there’s the powerful one, where I can be high authority and no friends, or I can be the likable one, which is low power, or low authority, and maybe lots of friends.

And I think I often work with people who feel a little bit stuck between those two doors, or it feels like that’s a one-way choice, right, that once you make it, then you’re sort of bound to it forever. And what I wanted to do with this book was to say, one, those doors and that artifice doesn’t really exist, but, more importantly, there’s tons of ways to show up in between those.

And, in fact, sometimes bringing those two seemingly dissonant ideas together can make for a much more generative interesting version of leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you perhaps paint a picture for what a powerfully likable person might look, sound, feel like in person when they are presenting some things?

Kate Mason
Yeah, so one of the things I think about a lot when I’m coaching folks is, “Where does your own power or your own energy feel highest?” So, it’s going to look really different for all of us. So, annoyingly, I don’t have one answer for you in this, but I encourage you to think, “Where are those moments where I think I come out of a meeting or an interaction or conversation, and think, ‘That went exactly as I hoped it went. I really landed my point or I really made able to convince somebody else of something.’”

Those are the moments in which we feel that there’s something going on in our connective or relational currency, there’s something going on with our own power, and we’re probably cottoned on to our likeability in the sense that we’re feeling people resonate or come with us. That’s the moment for you where you’re probably embodying that.

And why I say for you, is that it’s a little bit subjective, it looks a bit different for all of us, but I think you know it when you have that feeling of like, “Yes, that went exactly as I hoped it would, and it resonated with the people in the way that I hoped it might.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds super. Well, could you share a story of a professional who saw transformation along these lines? They used some of your stuff and became more powerfully likeable and they saw some cool results in their side.

Kate Mason
Yeah, a lot of people either come to me, they come to me on both ends of the spectrum. So, they either come to me saying, “I kind of need more quote ‘executive presence.’ I’ve been told I need to be more confident,” or they come to me at the other end of things, which, “I’ve been told I’ve been, I’m too abrupt or I’m too aggressive or too transactional.” Feedback I’ve certainly received both ends in my career as well.

But I’ll give you an example of someone who came to me from the lower end, right, “I want to step into my power and I’ve been told I need to work on that.” She was using a lot of really undermining language, really subconsciously. She wasn’t sure making, she didn’t intend to. But it had the impact of making her own work and, by extension, kind of herself not seem very important.

So, she would do things like she would often minimize what she was saying by saying things like, “I’m not an expert, but…” or, “I’m not an engineer, but…” so she would give these caveats. She would say things like, “It’ll just take two seconds,” or, “No worries if not,” or, “I’ll just pop by your desk,” right? Everything was very small and minimal.

And what she was, by extension, saying, like if someone says to you, “Pete, can I grab two minutes?” it’s probably, you’re not expecting that I’m going to tell you about some epiphany I’ve had, right? Like, it doesn’t seem very important. She was sort of couching her language in these ways that were subtly undermining her own importance and, by extension, I guess the work, the importance of her work.

So, we sort of did a bit of an audit, like, “Hey, do you notice these things are going on?” She often uses the phrase, “Does that make sense?” at the end of everything she said. She would often explain something to me perfectly, super rationally, super intelligently, and then say, “Did that make sense?” And I said, “What you’re actually asking for there is consensus. You’re asking.” Or, “Are you ready to move on?” or, “Have what I said actually made sense to you?”

And so, we worked on a number of these, and she started eliminating some of them. And, over time, she said it would really change the way her team saw her. They gave her feedback like, “We really appreciate how decisive you’re being.” She was getting feedback that she said she hadn’t actually changed the direction of her work. It was just the couching of her language was slightly different and it was landing really differently too.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s really interesting. The small minimizing, undermining kind of language there. I’m reminded of, I think there’s a lot of little vocal pauses in this department, “kind of like,” “sort of,” “you know,” that really diminishes it. And my buddy, Connor, and I, we have this joke. I remember this is one of my first work experiences. I was at an internship and we were all out to dinner and it was kind of fun, like, “Ooh yeah, corporate money. Yeah, this is fun.”

And I remember someone said, “So do you guys want to get some appetizers or…?” and he trailed off with an ‘or.’ But the people were kind of in conversation, no one was really tuned in, but I sort of noticed him, and I was thinking, “Well, I very much want lots of appetizers because they’re free,” and I am still in college and I’m unaccustomed to this experience.

Kate Mason
This bounty.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. But I didn’t want to speak up because, yeah, I didn’t quite know the rules of the game here. And then I noticed he said it again in the exact same way, “So do you guys want to get the appetizers or…?” And I just thought about how trailing off with an ‘or’ really diminishes the power or the vibe of what you’re saying.

And so, my buddy, Connor and I, we used to joke about, like, what’s the most powerful sentence you could say and then undermine with ‘or’ such as, “So are you guys are inspired by my vision, or…?” And, “So, are you guys are ready to go into battle and put your life on the line for freedom, or…?”

And so, it’s just sort of a little joke, but I think it calls into stark relief how we are often saying some fairly high-stakes things for people with regard to lots of investment or lots of time people are spending on a thing, and the little minimizing words and phrases are out of place.

Kate Mason
Yeah. Well, they’re just not doing us any service, right? And so, if they’re not helping us or, worse, they’re undermining us actively, I think it’s worthwhile thinking through what they might be and, whether you might want to change them or at least play around with it, right? You might experiment and think, “What about I don’t use this thing? Or, what about I use this other thing?” and see if there’s a shift or a change in the way that you are feeling at work, which I think is really interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
And I want to zoom in on “Does that make sense?” because I’m thinking about consulting. I remember I heard that a lot from our team. I even commented once, like, “Boy, it feels like we say that a lot when we’re in these client meetings.” And someone joked, “What we’re saying is, ‘Do you got it or do I have to slow down for you dumb-dumbs?’” It was like, “Ha, ha, ha.”

Kate Mason
Yeah. I mean, that’s another point, which I think a lot of people take rightly some umbrage at that, which is like, it can sound really patronizing, right? Like, “Does that make sense to your small, infantile mind? Or, you know, like, because I’m so brilliant.” So, it can be kind of offensive in a number of ways.

But I think what the person is trying to say is, “I’ve just given you a lot of information. Are you with me? Like, are you ready to move on?” Or, you’re asking for a show of understanding in case you’re not getting any audience feedback. If you’re not getting a lot of nods and smiles, for example, sometimes you tend to ask that, “Does that make sense? Have I gotten through to you?”

And a great way to do that is you can just pause and, say, you’re presenting to a group, and you can say something like, “I’ve just gone through a lot of information. Does anyone have any questions before we move on?” And it’s just a very different way of saying the same thing, or having the same meaning come across, but not look like you’re sort of either insulting everybody else’s intelligence or undermining your own, because we assume you make sense, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, Kate, I love these quick little swaps like, “Say this, not that.” Do you have any more for us? So, instead of, “Does that make sense?” we’ve got, “Hey, we’ve covered a lot of information. Before we move on, are there any questions?” I love it. Any other instant substitutions you recommend?

Kate Mason
There’s tons. So, a great one, or a common one I often hear, is someone will say, “Can I just pop by your desk?” or, “It’ll only take two seconds.” And this is a really interesting one because what you’re trying to say on your side when you’re asking it is, “I don’t want to cause any trouble,” or, “I promise this won’t take long. This won’t be painful.”

But what it actually says to me is like, “My work isn’t that important. I’m not that important.” If it’s only going to take two seconds, it must be some sort of irritant. So, you could actually say, “Hey, Pete, I really want to walk you through,” whatever it is, “I’m going to put 30 minutes on your calendar next week. Feel free to move it around if that time doesn’t work.”

By extension, you’ve sort of said, “This is important and I want to take time and sit down with you.” And you’re being warm and friendly by saying, “Find a time that actually works.” So, I call the feeling of not wanting to make those impositions, imposing syndrome, that we, it’s not so much imposter syndrome that’s the problem here, which we’re all pretty familiar with, but it’s imposing.

We don’t want to make it imposition, and so we sort of shrink down the ask. And, actually, sometimes the ask is usually a very valid and legitimate one, so I’m really encouraging folks to make the ask.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Any other substitutions you recommend?

Kate Mason
A really common phrase that people often use in that same vein of not wanting to make an imposition is that they’ll ask for something. So, “Hey, Pete, would you be able to get me those notes by the end of today?” And then they’ll end it, even though they’ve made a perfect ask, they’ll end it with, “No worries if not.” Right? And it’s such a common one.

And we find it’s coming out of our mouths before we even thought about it. And, “No worries if not,” sometimes there actually is a worry, sometimes I need those notes by the end of today, like, “Our boss needs it,” or, “I need to send it to someone else.” So, the, “No worries if not” is a really one I get people to just catch and say, like, you could just actually say what’s true, which was like, “I appreciate it. It’s such a tight turnaround. Thanks so much in advance. I have to get this to, you know, so-and-so by this evening.”

So, you’re actually explaining what’s going to happen or, like, the reason that you need the thing. And, like, “Thanks again.” Again, it’s subtle but it’s important when, if I see a “No worries if not,” there could be a feeling of, like, “Oh, maybe it’s not that important if I get back to them today.” And, in fact, it often really is important.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s good. I’m also thinking about the use of the word “obviously,” which can be a bit of a crutch or a self-confidence thing that I find kind of problematic.

Kate Mason
Give me the context. Tell me about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so someone says, “Well, and obviously these numbers include something, something, something.” And so, I’m thinking, “Well, if it’s not…” I guess I’m just like, I mean, I’m a former competitive speech person, too, so maybe I’m just really judgmental and critical. It’s like, “Well, if it’s obvious, I suppose it didn’t need to be said. So that’s unnecessary.”

But, also, I think it’s potentially offensive in the case of, “Oh, well, that was not obvious to me. I guess I’m just an idiot.”

Kate Mason
Right, “Now, I feel stupid because I’ve got to clarify what you mean.” Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
But I think most often people say “obviously,” kind of from a similar place of diminished confidence, they’re like, “Okay, I’m saying this thing, but, I think, maybe that people are going to say, ‘Well, duh.’ So, I’m sort of trying to head that off at the pass.” So, I bring that up because I feel like it’s coming from a similar place of, well, Kate, you tell us. Like, what is this psychological place of smallness? What’s up with that?

Kate Mason
Yeah. Well, no one wants to say the stupid thing, do they? Right? Like, there’s that feeling of. And the other way you might hear it, “obviously” is a great example, but the other one you might hear or be familiar with is someone saying like, “You’ve probably already thought of this,” or, “This is probably something that someone’s already said before,” right? They’re giving that preemptive caveat to say, “Please don’t hate me.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, “Please don’t hate me.”

Kate Mason
And, oftentimes, it’s like a perfectly reasonable thing to say. And it may be, “I have thought about it before, but that’s fine for you to tell me again.” So, yeah, just thinking through, and I don’t want people to get paranoid about all of their language in every single word.

But if you’re noticing, take a little audit, right? Just through the week, “Oh, I noticed I’ve said this. Oh, I noticed somebody else said this. What was the effect of it? How did it feel? Is there a substitution here I could make that maybe gives myself a little more credibility or I liken myself a little bit more? It could be interesting.”

Pete Mockaitis
I think your “Please don’t hate me” is the perfect articulation of what seems to be, from my perspective, a little bit of a psychological root of all this stuff. It’s almost like a fear of stepping on toes or being seen as dumb or rude or inconsiderate. So, what do you recommend we do to just kind of get our mindset and our heads right with this whole thing?

Kate Mason
Yeah, so, exactly what you’re talking about is one of the threat responses that we can exhibit when we feel under threat communicatively. And so, if you think about those, there’s four of them I talk about in the book, but one of them is fight, so someone gets really aggressive.

One of them is flight, they want to leave the conversation or sometimes you see people on stage halfway out of their seat, right? That’s a flight response. A freeze response, they go blank or they don’t know an answer. And the one we’re talking about here is the fawn response, right, to make yourself small in the face of, like, a threat.

And it’s so fascinating, because once you start recognizing these patterns, either in yourself or others, it’s a really helpful code almost or a language that you can start realizing, “Oh, I need to kind of bring them down or deescalate that threat.” They’ve perceived something here and we need to kind of help them regulate or work out how to be more normal in the face of something that feels threatening.

So. in the sense of that smallness one, there’s often a sense of like, “I’m not worthy,” or, “I’m worried about something,” or, “I’m afraid of this not being good enough,” and just thinking through and isolating exactly what that is, and just interrogating it a little bit can be a very helpful way through that to work out, “What is it that I’m actually afraid of?”

Most people are afraid of looking stupid in front of somebody else. And, actually, asking a clarifying question or a powerful question in the face of not knowing an answer is often very helpful to the rest of the group. It’s often not, you know, annoying to others in the way that you might think it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. So, these diminishing words and language are part of the fawn branch of a stress response — fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And then when you phrase it that way, we could see that there are other folks who will just go very differently. They’ll fight, they’ll get defensive, like, “Well, that’s because we didn’t get the information in time, and so our team wasn’t able to…” And so, they’re going off in another direction.

And that also doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence in terms of, “Now here’s someone who’s really on top of things and a rock star professional.” So, it seems like part of the game is just really getting clear. Like you said, interrogate what’s up in terms of what is it that we fear, and how are we manifesting that in terms of, maybe we’re defensive on the fight.

Maybe we are just like, “Get me out of here. I don’t want anything to do with this project or this person,” on the flight. Or, the freeze, they just sort of say nothing, over the course of the meeting.

Kate Mason
Or, you blank on an answer or something.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. So, how do we get to a place beyond the interrogation of our fears and worries, where we’re able to say, “Yeah, it’s quite possible that I’m going to embarrass myself or someone’s going to hate this idea, and I am not bothered”?

I find that fascinating. That seems to be like some people seem not at all troubled by saying things that are false or offensive. And, in a way, I don’t want to be like them. I’d like to be accurate and I’d like to be respectful. But I also kind of envy, it’s like, “Man, you really just don’t give a flying F about how you’re coming across right now. I would like a little bit, but not a full portion of what you have.”

Kate Mason
Yeah. Well, that’s it, right, “God grant me the confidence of a mediocre person.” Like, there’s some sort of liberation there. I think part of this is self-aware folks are usually the ones making these sorts of questions of themselves. They’ve thought so deeply, and, in fact, their own awareness of their perceived, say, likeability, is so high that that’s why some of these threat responses come in, because they’re so deeply concerned and mindful of their place in the organization.

So, it’s usually people who are already pretty self-aware that are having these questions. And they are, for better or worse, and I think it’s better that they’re the folks that I tend to work with, because they’re the ones who are like, “Oh, I think I’d like to work with a communications coach.”

I think the thing that is really interesting to reframe, if you ask somebody who’s feeling like, “Gosh, I would like to ask this question but I’m worried about it,” or, “I’m new to this team,” I have a whole section in the book talking about repositioning questions which can feel deferential or junior in there because we ask a lot of questions when we’re starting out at a job, to think about asking a powerful question.

So, there’s a range of different powerful questions you could use in those sorts of situations, which is like, “Am I right in thinking we’re looking at the X versus the Y?” or, “I want to get up to speed quickly here. Can you just clarify the acronym here so that I know we’re on the same page?”

These are ways of actually asking a really smart question or just showing your engagement on something but getting the information you need. And you don’t need to cave it with like, “Ugh, I’m such an idiot. I don’t know what this acronym means,” but you’re just being mindful and moving things forward. And I think most people appreciate that trajectory and that pushing forward.

When I was debating, I was in a team with this wonderful guy, and it took me a long time to realize, but his code for when he didn’t know something, and we were in a prep room together, his code was, “Talk me through,” whatever the topic. And for a long time, I’d be like, “Oh, great. Well, this is how that works.” And it took me a long time to realize, “Oh, he’s actually saying ‘I don’t know anything about this topic.’”

And it was such a funny realization to me because it always felt very authoritative, and he said it in a way that was very unruffled, very calm, but he meant that, “I need you to talk me through and I need you to help me understand this issue.”

And so, there’s different ways that we can ask for that information, still get what we need, but not necessarily be like, “I’m so sorry for being an idiot,” and “Mea culpa” our way into sort of a deferential position if we didn’t really want to be there.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think it’s also handy when you’re new just to list all the questions. I remember being in some meetings where I felt so clueless, but it was so handy to just write down all of my questions and then I could find out a chunk of them via, whatever, Google, ChatGPT, internal documents, and then only a few were left and that felt great in terms of I am getting up to speed very quickly. And then that just builds natural confidence.

And the questions that you have left, typically are pretty good. It was like, “Yes, of course, it would make sense that you’re asking that. And, in fact, you seem smarter because you’re asking that and you’re being proactive and taking care of things.”

Kate Mason
I think you’ve come to a really interesting point, which is like, I’m saying asking questions can be powerful. Asking thoughtful questions can be powerful. Like, the fact that you’ve done your homework and tried to get as much of it together yourself is really great demonstration that you’ve got in some way there.

I think if it’s like a question like, “What’s this meeting about again?” or something that demonstrates that you just don’t care or haven’t been listening at all, it’s probably going to work in the opposite way. So, I love that, that you’ve gone and sort of done some homework and then come back with the remainder is a great way to think about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, this reminds me of grade school. I’m thinking, when you can ask a great question of a teacher, and they really appreciate it. And they say, “Oh, thank you so much for that. I guess I wasn’t so clear the way I explained how this scientific concept works.”

But then when, I remember, some people would ask the question, it’s not even a question, it’s just like, “I don’t get it.” And you could tell, you could see the teacher’s frustration, it’s like, “I don’t…Well, what is it that you don’t get?” It’s like, “I don’t even know where to begin with this.” So, yeah, you can upgrade your questions, certainly.

Kate Mason
Yeah. I still remember someone who, I don’t know, maybe three semesters into learning Latin, asked the teacher, “Where’s Latin?” And that was a revealing moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well, yeah. Certainly. Yeah, and they probably asked that to someone else elsewhere, is the best move there. Well, I want to get your perspective as well on when we need to be all the more powerful in terms of, we’re pushing back or disagreeing or challenging folks but they’re worried that we’re going to seem like, “Oh, we’re difficult. We’re not a team player. We’re not really committed,” what are your pro tips for dealing with that situation?

Kate Mason
One of the ways, I think, is to demonstrate what part of you is aligned before you’re talking about what’s difficult. So, you could say something like, “Pete, I really want us, I know both of us want to make sure that we can launch by Friday.” So, you’re emphasizing a shared goal.

Or, “I know we both need to get these numbers ready by end of week,” or whatever it is. “In order for us to do that, I’m really going to need, like, this is the area that I’m really going to need help on,” or, “I have found it really challenging to be able to get this data from your team. Is there any way we can work together and work out a way or a better process for doing that or something?”

Emphasizing that shared goal at the beginning, and then sort of showing that you’re actually aligned together to try and do the thing, is a really nice way for that person to not feel like you’re sort of pointing them out and like being, “Pete, your team has let me down again.” But really that like, “I’m in this with you, and I’m trying hard to work with you, not against you.”

Again, it’s quite subtle but it can be received so much more generously than sort of finger-pointing or, you know, bulldozing your way through. And, of course, it depends on the context and all sorts of other things but I think, as a general principle, that shared goal is a very, very good strategy in those sorts of situations.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about when we just need to say no?

Kate Mason
Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of sorts of Instagram wisdom, right, “No is a full sentence.” And it’s like, no, that’s actually just not true at work. Right? No is very rarely a full sentence at work. Like, if someone asks you to take something on, you really can’t just turn around and say no, and expect to be respected collegially.

So, I think one of the ways, and again, it depends who’s asking and what it is. So, if it’s, say, your boss and you feel pretty beholden to do that, one way is just thinking through, “How do I show the transparency of what I’m currently working on? So, my boss has asked me to take on this other thing,” and you say, “Great. Here are the other four things that are on my plate for this week. How would you like me to prioritize that in relation to those?”

As in, “I’m just, again, reminding you that there’s a lot happening,” and then they might say, “You know what? Actually, it’s not that important compared to the other four. Put it here or put it number one,” and it gives you clarity but you’re also showing visibility and transparency about what’s happening.

If they then say, “Look I want you to do all five,” and you still don’t think that’s going to happen, then you say, “Look, I’m going to need to be able to drop one of these to get it all done by Friday.” So, like that’s a good way of sort of just showing capacity.

Sometimes it might be somebody from another team sort of putting something on your team or where you don’t really report into them, but they’re trying to push something onto you. Sometimes that’s really simple as, well, it’s not simple in practice, it feels really hard. But the simple rule could be like, “That’s just out of scope for our team. We don’t handle those types of issues. That’s probably better with this other function for these reasons.”

So, saying no is something that we often really fear because it feels like we’ll be unlikable or difficult or all of those things. But I’m much more about being clear about your capacity and being very transparent about that. What’s a goal and a non-goal is actually, ultimately, quite a likable quality because people understand and kind of see what your capacity is and can also demonstrate to build trust because you will deliver on the things you say you’re going to deliver on.

Pete Mockaitis
And your chapter four is called “Kill Your Confidence, Find Your Power.” Confidence is one of the top things we want. So, what do you mean by kill your confidence?

Kate Mason
Yeah, I’m trying to be a little deliberately provocative with that one. But I think when you tell somebody, “Hey, Pete, just be a little bit more confident,” it’s supremely unactionable and unhelpful advice to give anybody, because it’s a little bit like saying, “Just be healthier,” right? We sort of know what it looks like in the end as an outcome, but we don’t necessarily always know the process or what we need to do to get there.

And, counterintuitively, when someone’s told to work on their confidence, they immediately become deeply self-conscious because they’re hyper-aware of it and wondering, “Am I sitting in a confident way? Did I say that confidently? Did it look confident?” So, it takes them out of the actual interaction and makes them an observer of themselves, which, for many of us, can be quite debilitating.

So, what I say in the chapter is much more about, if you are concerned about your confidence and if you want to be more confident, the best way of doing that is focusing on your connection and your relational abilities. So, thinking about in that meeting with the person you’re about to show up with, “Are you actually listening to them?”

We say we’re listening, but we’re often sort of thinking about what we’re going to say next. So, are you actually listening and connecting? Are you being of service to them? Are you working out what they need and working out how you might be able to help them? Are you calm? Have you regulated your own threat responses that we talk about in the book such that you’re ready and open and creative and sort of nimble in those sorts of conversations?

If you can do all of those things, you’re actually ultimately demonstrating a confidence, but you’re not hung up on, “Is this confident? Was that a confident meeting?” and all those types of things. So, you’re actually doing, not thinking about. And that’s a very liberating thing for a lot of folks who actually find a lot more power in doing that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, tell me, Kate, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Kate Mason
I think that’s a great summary. Really, this book is very much an invitation to try out different strategies and tactics. It’s filled with stories and anecdotes and my own experiences. And the idea is, if you see something there that feels like interesting or that resonates with you and might change your own way of leadership, to give it a try and see what works if you try to incorporate it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kate Mason
My favorite quote is by a British artist called Rob Ryan, and he did an artwork many years ago that I have a copy of, and the quote is, “My adventure is about to begin.” And I think of it all the time because it seems to be relevant daily, right? There’s always something else that’s happening and beginning and feels exciting.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And can you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kate Mason
I often find myself quoting the potential and gender promotion gap research, which shows that women are promoted on experience, what they’ve actually accomplished, and men are often promoted on potential, what they might be able to achieve. And I find myself quoting that a lot to my clients and talking about what that means.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Kate Mason
That’s like asking me to choose a favorite child, but one of my favorite books is In the Skin of a Lion by Michael Ondaatje.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job.

Kate Mason
I would probably say I have an AI email assistant that helps sort email, which is extremely helpful at the moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us all about that.

Kate Mason
It’s Fyxer.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’ve got Sanebox and I’ve got Superhuman, but Fyxer is new for me. So, thank you. That’s exciting to check out.

Kate Mason
Nice.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Kate Mason
Probably, trying to be healthy, trying to move my body.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share, a Kate original quotation that folks are really vibing with and they quote back to you often?

Kate Mason
Yeah, I often share that good communicators can impart information, but gifted communicators can change the room that they’re in. And what I mean by that is that they can really influence and persuade and change the feeling of a room really effectively.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kate Mason
Yeah, KateMason.co is my website, and you can find a link to my Substack or my socials from there.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kate Mason
I’d love to think about doing a bit of a communications audit, right? Where did you get energy this week? Where did you spend it? Why might you want to mitigate the bad areas? And what might you want to do to amplify the way you’re feeling good?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Kate, thank you.

Kate Mason
Thanks so much for having me.