Self-Awareness Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Kate, welcome!

Kate Mason
Thanks so much for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be chatting, and I want to hear, first and foremost, about you being a world champion debater. What’s the world champion of debate look, sound, feel like?

Kate Mason
Well, it’s a nerd convention that I went to when I was in high school, and I continued debating in university, and it’s basically the best people in the world come together and debate together. It’s brilliant.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And so, I’m thinking, back in high school, I did some speech individual events and I thought it was a ton of fun. But world sounds so hardcore because I didn’t even make it to the state finals. So, what do world champion debaters, what’s the vibe like when you’re in their midst?

Kate Mason
It’s pretty intense. You tend to study up on global affairs and lots of issues in the months preceding debates, and you know that there are going to be different categories of topics. So, there’s one like on sports and one on politics and one on social justice.

There’s usually categories and then you just practice as many at-bats and practice debates as you can in the lead up. And then it’s actually just a ton of fun. You meet people from all over the world and you get to of compare and contrast your different cultural styles and ways of doing stuff. It’s really fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it’s a fascinating backdrop to, we’re talking about your book, Powerfully Likeable, in terms of being a world champion debater. That’s something that seems pretty helpful there because you need to be powerful. Like, you’ve got very persuasive points, they’re hard hitting, they are data-driven, they are logically sound and cogent, they fit together, and they got some oomph. But, also, there’s human beings and judges that you kind of got to win over and have think, “You know, I like this person.”

Kate Mason
Absolutely. So, debate is always marked on your matter, so what you present; your manner, how you present it; and your method, the way you’ve structured and made your arguments sort of cut through. And I’ve always taken that perspective through all my corporate work as well. Even though it’s not marked in exactly the same way, I think about those same components always operating together.

And you can feel that, too, if you’re in a meeting that’s really well-run by someone. Chances are they’ve structured it really well, they’ve said something really well, but they’ve also said it in a way that’s persuasive or sort of spoke to you. So those are the three things I always keep in mind and have always been pretty ingrained in me for a long time.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, being powerfully likable sounds like something that I want and many of us want. Can you share with us, for starters, a particularly fascinating discovery you’ve made about humans who are powerfully likable? What’s going on there? Any key surprises that you’ve uncovered?

Kate Mason
Yeah, so I think when you think about leadership, or when many of us think about leadership, it feels like you can only choose through two options, right? It feels like there’s the powerful one, where I can be high authority and no friends, or I can be the likable one, which is low power, or low authority, and maybe lots of friends.

And I think I often work with people who feel a little bit stuck between those two doors, or it feels like that’s a one-way choice, right, that once you make it, then you’re sort of bound to it forever. And what I wanted to do with this book was to say, one, those doors and that artifice doesn’t really exist, but, more importantly, there’s tons of ways to show up in between those.

And, in fact, sometimes bringing those two seemingly dissonant ideas together can make for a much more generative interesting version of leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you perhaps paint a picture for what a powerfully likable person might look, sound, feel like in person when they are presenting some things?

Kate Mason
Yeah, so one of the things I think about a lot when I’m coaching folks is, “Where does your own power or your own energy feel highest?” So, it’s going to look really different for all of us. So, annoyingly, I don’t have one answer for you in this, but I encourage you to think, “Where are those moments where I think I come out of a meeting or an interaction or conversation, and think, ‘That went exactly as I hoped it went. I really landed my point or I really made able to convince somebody else of something.’”

Those are the moments in which we feel that there’s something going on in our connective or relational currency, there’s something going on with our own power, and we’re probably cottoned on to our likeability in the sense that we’re feeling people resonate or come with us. That’s the moment for you where you’re probably embodying that.

And why I say for you, is that it’s a little bit subjective, it looks a bit different for all of us, but I think you know it when you have that feeling of like, “Yes, that went exactly as I hoped it would, and it resonated with the people in the way that I hoped it might.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds super. Well, could you share a story of a professional who saw transformation along these lines? They used some of your stuff and became more powerfully likeable and they saw some cool results in their side.

Kate Mason
Yeah, a lot of people either come to me, they come to me on both ends of the spectrum. So, they either come to me saying, “I kind of need more quote ‘executive presence.’ I’ve been told I need to be more confident,” or they come to me at the other end of things, which, “I’ve been told I’ve been, I’m too abrupt or I’m too aggressive or too transactional.” Feedback I’ve certainly received both ends in my career as well.

But I’ll give you an example of someone who came to me from the lower end, right, “I want to step into my power and I’ve been told I need to work on that.” She was using a lot of really undermining language, really subconsciously. She wasn’t sure making, she didn’t intend to. But it had the impact of making her own work and, by extension, kind of herself not seem very important.

So, she would do things like she would often minimize what she was saying by saying things like, “I’m not an expert, but…” or, “I’m not an engineer, but…” so she would give these caveats. She would say things like, “It’ll just take two seconds,” or, “No worries if not,” or, “I’ll just pop by your desk,” right? Everything was very small and minimal.

And what she was, by extension, saying, like if someone says to you, “Pete, can I grab two minutes?” it’s probably, you’re not expecting that I’m going to tell you about some epiphany I’ve had, right? Like, it doesn’t seem very important. She was sort of couching her language in these ways that were subtly undermining her own importance and, by extension, I guess the work, the importance of her work.

So, we sort of did a bit of an audit, like, “Hey, do you notice these things are going on?” She often uses the phrase, “Does that make sense?” at the end of everything she said. She would often explain something to me perfectly, super rationally, super intelligently, and then say, “Did that make sense?” And I said, “What you’re actually asking for there is consensus. You’re asking.” Or, “Are you ready to move on?” or, “Have what I said actually made sense to you?”

And so, we worked on a number of these, and she started eliminating some of them. And, over time, she said it would really change the way her team saw her. They gave her feedback like, “We really appreciate how decisive you’re being.” She was getting feedback that she said she hadn’t actually changed the direction of her work. It was just the couching of her language was slightly different and it was landing really differently too.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s really interesting. The small minimizing, undermining kind of language there. I’m reminded of, I think there’s a lot of little vocal pauses in this department, “kind of like,” “sort of,” “you know,” that really diminishes it. And my buddy, Connor, and I, we have this joke. I remember this is one of my first work experiences. I was at an internship and we were all out to dinner and it was kind of fun, like, “Ooh yeah, corporate money. Yeah, this is fun.”

And I remember someone said, “So do you guys want to get some appetizers or…?” and he trailed off with an ‘or.’ But the people were kind of in conversation, no one was really tuned in, but I sort of noticed him, and I was thinking, “Well, I very much want lots of appetizers because they’re free,” and I am still in college and I’m unaccustomed to this experience.

Kate Mason
This bounty.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. But I didn’t want to speak up because, yeah, I didn’t quite know the rules of the game here. And then I noticed he said it again in the exact same way, “So do you guys want to get the appetizers or…?” And I just thought about how trailing off with an ‘or’ really diminishes the power or the vibe of what you’re saying.

And so, my buddy, Connor and I, we used to joke about, like, what’s the most powerful sentence you could say and then undermine with ‘or’ such as, “So are you guys are inspired by my vision, or…?” And, “So, are you guys are ready to go into battle and put your life on the line for freedom, or…?”

And so, it’s just sort of a little joke, but I think it calls into stark relief how we are often saying some fairly high-stakes things for people with regard to lots of investment or lots of time people are spending on a thing, and the little minimizing words and phrases are out of place.

Kate Mason
Yeah. Well, they’re just not doing us any service, right? And so, if they’re not helping us or, worse, they’re undermining us actively, I think it’s worthwhile thinking through what they might be and, whether you might want to change them or at least play around with it, right? You might experiment and think, “What about I don’t use this thing? Or, what about I use this other thing?” and see if there’s a shift or a change in the way that you are feeling at work, which I think is really interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
And I want to zoom in on “Does that make sense?” because I’m thinking about consulting. I remember I heard that a lot from our team. I even commented once, like, “Boy, it feels like we say that a lot when we’re in these client meetings.” And someone joked, “What we’re saying is, ‘Do you got it or do I have to slow down for you dumb-dumbs?’” It was like, “Ha, ha, ha.”

Kate Mason
Yeah. I mean, that’s another point, which I think a lot of people take rightly some umbrage at that, which is like, it can sound really patronizing, right? Like, “Does that make sense to your small, infantile mind? Or, you know, like, because I’m so brilliant.” So, it can be kind of offensive in a number of ways.

But I think what the person is trying to say is, “I’ve just given you a lot of information. Are you with me? Like, are you ready to move on?” Or, you’re asking for a show of understanding in case you’re not getting any audience feedback. If you’re not getting a lot of nods and smiles, for example, sometimes you tend to ask that, “Does that make sense? Have I gotten through to you?”

And a great way to do that is you can just pause and, say, you’re presenting to a group, and you can say something like, “I’ve just gone through a lot of information. Does anyone have any questions before we move on?” And it’s just a very different way of saying the same thing, or having the same meaning come across, but not look like you’re sort of either insulting everybody else’s intelligence or undermining your own, because we assume you make sense, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, Kate, I love these quick little swaps like, “Say this, not that.” Do you have any more for us? So, instead of, “Does that make sense?” we’ve got, “Hey, we’ve covered a lot of information. Before we move on, are there any questions?” I love it. Any other instant substitutions you recommend?

Kate Mason
There’s tons. So, a great one, or a common one I often hear, is someone will say, “Can I just pop by your desk?” or, “It’ll only take two seconds.” And this is a really interesting one because what you’re trying to say on your side when you’re asking it is, “I don’t want to cause any trouble,” or, “I promise this won’t take long. This won’t be painful.”

But what it actually says to me is like, “My work isn’t that important. I’m not that important.” If it’s only going to take two seconds, it must be some sort of irritant. So, you could actually say, “Hey, Pete, I really want to walk you through,” whatever it is, “I’m going to put 30 minutes on your calendar next week. Feel free to move it around if that time doesn’t work.”

By extension, you’ve sort of said, “This is important and I want to take time and sit down with you.” And you’re being warm and friendly by saying, “Find a time that actually works.” So, I call the feeling of not wanting to make those impositions, imposing syndrome, that we, it’s not so much imposter syndrome that’s the problem here, which we’re all pretty familiar with, but it’s imposing.

We don’t want to make it imposition, and so we sort of shrink down the ask. And, actually, sometimes the ask is usually a very valid and legitimate one, so I’m really encouraging folks to make the ask.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Okay. Any other substitutions you recommend?

Kate Mason
A really common phrase that people often use in that same vein of not wanting to make an imposition is that they’ll ask for something. So, “Hey, Pete, would you be able to get me those notes by the end of today?” And then they’ll end it, even though they’ve made a perfect ask, they’ll end it with, “No worries if not.” Right? And it’s such a common one.

And we find it’s coming out of our mouths before we even thought about it. And, “No worries if not,” sometimes there actually is a worry, sometimes I need those notes by the end of today, like, “Our boss needs it,” or, “I need to send it to someone else.” So, the, “No worries if not” is a really one I get people to just catch and say, like, you could just actually say what’s true, which was like, “I appreciate it. It’s such a tight turnaround. Thanks so much in advance. I have to get this to, you know, so-and-so by this evening.”

So, you’re actually explaining what’s going to happen or, like, the reason that you need the thing. And, like, “Thanks again.” Again, it’s subtle but it’s important when, if I see a “No worries if not,” there could be a feeling of, like, “Oh, maybe it’s not that important if I get back to them today.” And, in fact, it often really is important.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s good. I’m also thinking about the use of the word “obviously,” which can be a bit of a crutch or a self-confidence thing that I find kind of problematic.

Kate Mason
Give me the context. Tell me about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so someone says, “Well, and obviously these numbers include something, something, something.” And so, I’m thinking, “Well, if it’s not…” I guess I’m just like, I mean, I’m a former competitive speech person, too, so maybe I’m just really judgmental and critical. It’s like, “Well, if it’s obvious, I suppose it didn’t need to be said. So that’s unnecessary.”

But, also, I think it’s potentially offensive in the case of, “Oh, well, that was not obvious to me. I guess I’m just an idiot.”

Kate Mason
Right, “Now, I feel stupid because I’ve got to clarify what you mean.” Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
But I think most often people say “obviously,” kind of from a similar place of diminished confidence, they’re like, “Okay, I’m saying this thing, but, I think, maybe that people are going to say, ‘Well, duh.’ So, I’m sort of trying to head that off at the pass.” So, I bring that up because I feel like it’s coming from a similar place of, well, Kate, you tell us. Like, what is this psychological place of smallness? What’s up with that?

Kate Mason
Yeah. Well, no one wants to say the stupid thing, do they? Right? Like, there’s that feeling of. And the other way you might hear it, “obviously” is a great example, but the other one you might hear or be familiar with is someone saying like, “You’ve probably already thought of this,” or, “This is probably something that someone’s already said before,” right? They’re giving that preemptive caveat to say, “Please don’t hate me.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, “Please don’t hate me.”

Kate Mason
And, oftentimes, it’s like a perfectly reasonable thing to say. And it may be, “I have thought about it before, but that’s fine for you to tell me again.” So, yeah, just thinking through, and I don’t want people to get paranoid about all of their language in every single word.

But if you’re noticing, take a little audit, right? Just through the week, “Oh, I noticed I’ve said this. Oh, I noticed somebody else said this. What was the effect of it? How did it feel? Is there a substitution here I could make that maybe gives myself a little more credibility or I liken myself a little bit more? It could be interesting.”

Pete Mockaitis
I think your “Please don’t hate me” is the perfect articulation of what seems to be, from my perspective, a little bit of a psychological root of all this stuff. It’s almost like a fear of stepping on toes or being seen as dumb or rude or inconsiderate. So, what do you recommend we do to just kind of get our mindset and our heads right with this whole thing?

Kate Mason
Yeah, so, exactly what you’re talking about is one of the threat responses that we can exhibit when we feel under threat communicatively. And so, if you think about those, there’s four of them I talk about in the book, but one of them is fight, so someone gets really aggressive.

One of them is flight, they want to leave the conversation or sometimes you see people on stage halfway out of their seat, right? That’s a flight response. A freeze response, they go blank or they don’t know an answer. And the one we’re talking about here is the fawn response, right, to make yourself small in the face of, like, a threat.

And it’s so fascinating, because once you start recognizing these patterns, either in yourself or others, it’s a really helpful code almost or a language that you can start realizing, “Oh, I need to kind of bring them down or deescalate that threat.” They’ve perceived something here and we need to kind of help them regulate or work out how to be more normal in the face of something that feels threatening.

So. in the sense of that smallness one, there’s often a sense of like, “I’m not worthy,” or, “I’m worried about something,” or, “I’m afraid of this not being good enough,” and just thinking through and isolating exactly what that is, and just interrogating it a little bit can be a very helpful way through that to work out, “What is it that I’m actually afraid of?”

Most people are afraid of looking stupid in front of somebody else. And, actually, asking a clarifying question or a powerful question in the face of not knowing an answer is often very helpful to the rest of the group. It’s often not, you know, annoying to others in the way that you might think it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. So, these diminishing words and language are part of the fawn branch of a stress response — fight, flight, freeze, fawn. And then when you phrase it that way, we could see that there are other folks who will just go very differently. They’ll fight, they’ll get defensive, like, “Well, that’s because we didn’t get the information in time, and so our team wasn’t able to…” And so, they’re going off in another direction.

And that also doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence in terms of, “Now here’s someone who’s really on top of things and a rock star professional.” So, it seems like part of the game is just really getting clear. Like you said, interrogate what’s up in terms of what is it that we fear, and how are we manifesting that in terms of, maybe we’re defensive on the fight.

Maybe we are just like, “Get me out of here. I don’t want anything to do with this project or this person,” on the flight. Or, the freeze, they just sort of say nothing, over the course of the meeting.

Kate Mason
Or, you blank on an answer or something.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. So, how do we get to a place beyond the interrogation of our fears and worries, where we’re able to say, “Yeah, it’s quite possible that I’m going to embarrass myself or someone’s going to hate this idea, and I am not bothered”?

I find that fascinating. That seems to be like some people seem not at all troubled by saying things that are false or offensive. And, in a way, I don’t want to be like them. I’d like to be accurate and I’d like to be respectful. But I also kind of envy, it’s like, “Man, you really just don’t give a flying F about how you’re coming across right now. I would like a little bit, but not a full portion of what you have.”

Kate Mason
Yeah. Well, that’s it, right, “God grant me the confidence of a mediocre person.” Like, there’s some sort of liberation there. I think part of this is self-aware folks are usually the ones making these sorts of questions of themselves. They’ve thought so deeply, and, in fact, their own awareness of their perceived, say, likeability, is so high that that’s why some of these threat responses come in, because they’re so deeply concerned and mindful of their place in the organization.

So, it’s usually people who are already pretty self-aware that are having these questions. And they are, for better or worse, and I think it’s better that they’re the folks that I tend to work with, because they’re the ones who are like, “Oh, I think I’d like to work with a communications coach.”

I think the thing that is really interesting to reframe, if you ask somebody who’s feeling like, “Gosh, I would like to ask this question but I’m worried about it,” or, “I’m new to this team,” I have a whole section in the book talking about repositioning questions which can feel deferential or junior in there because we ask a lot of questions when we’re starting out at a job, to think about asking a powerful question.

So, there’s a range of different powerful questions you could use in those sorts of situations, which is like, “Am I right in thinking we’re looking at the X versus the Y?” or, “I want to get up to speed quickly here. Can you just clarify the acronym here so that I know we’re on the same page?”

These are ways of actually asking a really smart question or just showing your engagement on something but getting the information you need. And you don’t need to cave it with like, “Ugh, I’m such an idiot. I don’t know what this acronym means,” but you’re just being mindful and moving things forward. And I think most people appreciate that trajectory and that pushing forward.

When I was debating, I was in a team with this wonderful guy, and it took me a long time to realize, but his code for when he didn’t know something, and we were in a prep room together, his code was, “Talk me through,” whatever the topic. And for a long time, I’d be like, “Oh, great. Well, this is how that works.” And it took me a long time to realize, “Oh, he’s actually saying ‘I don’t know anything about this topic.’”

And it was such a funny realization to me because it always felt very authoritative, and he said it in a way that was very unruffled, very calm, but he meant that, “I need you to talk me through and I need you to help me understand this issue.”

And so, there’s different ways that we can ask for that information, still get what we need, but not necessarily be like, “I’m so sorry for being an idiot,” and “Mea culpa” our way into sort of a deferential position if we didn’t really want to be there.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think it’s also handy when you’re new just to list all the questions. I remember being in some meetings where I felt so clueless, but it was so handy to just write down all of my questions and then I could find out a chunk of them via, whatever, Google, ChatGPT, internal documents, and then only a few were left and that felt great in terms of I am getting up to speed very quickly. And then that just builds natural confidence.

And the questions that you have left, typically are pretty good. It was like, “Yes, of course, it would make sense that you’re asking that. And, in fact, you seem smarter because you’re asking that and you’re being proactive and taking care of things.”

Kate Mason
I think you’ve come to a really interesting point, which is like, I’m saying asking questions can be powerful. Asking thoughtful questions can be powerful. Like, the fact that you’ve done your homework and tried to get as much of it together yourself is really great demonstration that you’ve got in some way there.

I think if it’s like a question like, “What’s this meeting about again?” or something that demonstrates that you just don’t care or haven’t been listening at all, it’s probably going to work in the opposite way. So, I love that, that you’ve gone and sort of done some homework and then come back with the remainder is a great way to think about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, this reminds me of grade school. I’m thinking, when you can ask a great question of a teacher, and they really appreciate it. And they say, “Oh, thank you so much for that. I guess I wasn’t so clear the way I explained how this scientific concept works.”

But then when, I remember, some people would ask the question, it’s not even a question, it’s just like, “I don’t get it.” And you could tell, you could see the teacher’s frustration, it’s like, “I don’t…Well, what is it that you don’t get?” It’s like, “I don’t even know where to begin with this.” So, yeah, you can upgrade your questions, certainly.

Kate Mason
Yeah. I still remember someone who, I don’t know, maybe three semesters into learning Latin, asked the teacher, “Where’s Latin?” And that was a revealing moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well, yeah. Certainly. Yeah, and they probably asked that to someone else elsewhere, is the best move there. Well, I want to get your perspective as well on when we need to be all the more powerful in terms of, we’re pushing back or disagreeing or challenging folks but they’re worried that we’re going to seem like, “Oh, we’re difficult. We’re not a team player. We’re not really committed,” what are your pro tips for dealing with that situation?

Kate Mason
One of the ways, I think, is to demonstrate what part of you is aligned before you’re talking about what’s difficult. So, you could say something like, “Pete, I really want us, I know both of us want to make sure that we can launch by Friday.” So, you’re emphasizing a shared goal.

Or, “I know we both need to get these numbers ready by end of week,” or whatever it is. “In order for us to do that, I’m really going to need, like, this is the area that I’m really going to need help on,” or, “I have found it really challenging to be able to get this data from your team. Is there any way we can work together and work out a way or a better process for doing that or something?”

Emphasizing that shared goal at the beginning, and then sort of showing that you’re actually aligned together to try and do the thing, is a really nice way for that person to not feel like you’re sort of pointing them out and like being, “Pete, your team has let me down again.” But really that like, “I’m in this with you, and I’m trying hard to work with you, not against you.”

Again, it’s quite subtle but it can be received so much more generously than sort of finger-pointing or, you know, bulldozing your way through. And, of course, it depends on the context and all sorts of other things but I think, as a general principle, that shared goal is a very, very good strategy in those sorts of situations.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about when we just need to say no?

Kate Mason
Yeah. I mean, there’s a lot of sorts of Instagram wisdom, right, “No is a full sentence.” And it’s like, no, that’s actually just not true at work. Right? No is very rarely a full sentence at work. Like, if someone asks you to take something on, you really can’t just turn around and say no, and expect to be respected collegially.

So, I think one of the ways, and again, it depends who’s asking and what it is. So, if it’s, say, your boss and you feel pretty beholden to do that, one way is just thinking through, “How do I show the transparency of what I’m currently working on? So, my boss has asked me to take on this other thing,” and you say, “Great. Here are the other four things that are on my plate for this week. How would you like me to prioritize that in relation to those?”

As in, “I’m just, again, reminding you that there’s a lot happening,” and then they might say, “You know what? Actually, it’s not that important compared to the other four. Put it here or put it number one,” and it gives you clarity but you’re also showing visibility and transparency about what’s happening.

If they then say, “Look I want you to do all five,” and you still don’t think that’s going to happen, then you say, “Look, I’m going to need to be able to drop one of these to get it all done by Friday.” So, like that’s a good way of sort of just showing capacity.

Sometimes it might be somebody from another team sort of putting something on your team or where you don’t really report into them, but they’re trying to push something onto you. Sometimes that’s really simple as, well, it’s not simple in practice, it feels really hard. But the simple rule could be like, “That’s just out of scope for our team. We don’t handle those types of issues. That’s probably better with this other function for these reasons.”

So, saying no is something that we often really fear because it feels like we’ll be unlikable or difficult or all of those things. But I’m much more about being clear about your capacity and being very transparent about that. What’s a goal and a non-goal is actually, ultimately, quite a likable quality because people understand and kind of see what your capacity is and can also demonstrate to build trust because you will deliver on the things you say you’re going to deliver on.

Pete Mockaitis
And your chapter four is called “Kill Your Confidence, Find Your Power.” Confidence is one of the top things we want. So, what do you mean by kill your confidence?

Kate Mason
Yeah, I’m trying to be a little deliberately provocative with that one. But I think when you tell somebody, “Hey, Pete, just be a little bit more confident,” it’s supremely unactionable and unhelpful advice to give anybody, because it’s a little bit like saying, “Just be healthier,” right? We sort of know what it looks like in the end as an outcome, but we don’t necessarily always know the process or what we need to do to get there.

And, counterintuitively, when someone’s told to work on their confidence, they immediately become deeply self-conscious because they’re hyper-aware of it and wondering, “Am I sitting in a confident way? Did I say that confidently? Did it look confident?” So, it takes them out of the actual interaction and makes them an observer of themselves, which, for many of us, can be quite debilitating.

So, what I say in the chapter is much more about, if you are concerned about your confidence and if you want to be more confident, the best way of doing that is focusing on your connection and your relational abilities. So, thinking about in that meeting with the person you’re about to show up with, “Are you actually listening to them?”

We say we’re listening, but we’re often sort of thinking about what we’re going to say next. So, are you actually listening and connecting? Are you being of service to them? Are you working out what they need and working out how you might be able to help them? Are you calm? Have you regulated your own threat responses that we talk about in the book such that you’re ready and open and creative and sort of nimble in those sorts of conversations?

If you can do all of those things, you’re actually ultimately demonstrating a confidence, but you’re not hung up on, “Is this confident? Was that a confident meeting?” and all those types of things. So, you’re actually doing, not thinking about. And that’s a very liberating thing for a lot of folks who actually find a lot more power in doing that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, tell me, Kate, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Kate Mason
I think that’s a great summary. Really, this book is very much an invitation to try out different strategies and tactics. It’s filled with stories and anecdotes and my own experiences. And the idea is, if you see something there that feels like interesting or that resonates with you and might change your own way of leadership, to give it a try and see what works if you try to incorporate it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kate Mason
My favorite quote is by a British artist called Rob Ryan, and he did an artwork many years ago that I have a copy of, and the quote is, “My adventure is about to begin.” And I think of it all the time because it seems to be relevant daily, right? There’s always something else that’s happening and beginning and feels exciting.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And can you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kate Mason
I often find myself quoting the potential and gender promotion gap research, which shows that women are promoted on experience, what they’ve actually accomplished, and men are often promoted on potential, what they might be able to achieve. And I find myself quoting that a lot to my clients and talking about what that means.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Kate Mason
That’s like asking me to choose a favorite child, but one of my favorite books is In the Skin of a Lion by Michael Ondaatje.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job.

Kate Mason
I would probably say I have an AI email assistant that helps sort email, which is extremely helpful at the moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us all about that.

Kate Mason
It’s Fyxer.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’ve got Sanebox and I’ve got Superhuman, but Fyxer is new for me. So, thank you. That’s exciting to check out.

Kate Mason
Nice.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Kate Mason
Probably, trying to be healthy, trying to move my body.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share, a Kate original quotation that folks are really vibing with and they quote back to you often?

Kate Mason
Yeah, I often share that good communicators can impart information, but gifted communicators can change the room that they’re in. And what I mean by that is that they can really influence and persuade and change the feeling of a room really effectively.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kate Mason
Yeah, KateMason.co is my website, and you can find a link to my Substack or my socials from there.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kate Mason
I’d love to think about doing a bit of a communications audit, right? Where did you get energy this week? Where did you spend it? Why might you want to mitigate the bad areas? And what might you want to do to amplify the way you’re feeling good?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Kate, thank you.

Kate Mason
Thanks so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Kathy, welcome!

Kathy Oneto
Hi, Pete. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to talk about Sustainable Ambition. Great title. It seems like something we’re into here. But could you kick us off by sharing a particularly surprising and fascinating and/or counterintuitive thing you’ve learned about folks and ambition from all of your consulting, coaching, facilitating years and many, many clients?

Kathy Oneto
This is the thing I’m going to start with, which is often where I end, which is to remember that we’re human, and that it’s both natural as humans to be both ambitious and to have goals. It’s not a bad thing. We’re wired to do this. And also, in our pursuit of ambitions that we don’t always get it right and that we stumble along our way. And that’s the life journey. And to, really, end this journey, to be generous with ourselves as we navigate the ups and downs of pursuing what we want for ourselves in our lives.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, is it your observation that we tend to not do these things, we either vilify ambition itself or harden ourselves as we over or under do it?

Kathy Oneto
Ambition, in our society, can have a negative connotation. And so, for some of us, we can be judged when we are ambitious.

And what can happen over time is that our ambition ebbs and flows. And people are surprised by this and it throws them off and they start to judge themselves around this. And there’s a lot of angst that is associated when our ambition ebbs and flows like this, when it goes up and down.

And I think what I’m wanting for people is just to embrace a little bit of, “Yes, this is part of our human nature. We have these different tendencies that tug and pull on us.” I’d like people to find a little bit more joy, peace, and ease in this journey as they navigate their ambition over time.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, joy, peace and ease are things I’m into. Thank you. And you’re right, like, I don’t think I’ve ever really stopped to ponder this point until now. So, thank you. This is valuable already because I’m thinking… It’s so funny, ambition can be perceived as positive or negative by different people at different times, and ourselves at different times. And then it just kind of gets you wondering.

So many things are popping up here for me. I’m thinking, so we have the old aphorisms, like, “Oh, the early bird gets the worm,” as in, “Oh, that’s a good thing. You want to be up early to get worms. Otherwise, as a bird, you will starve if you don’t. So, you should, you should hustle.”

And then there’s this hustle culture like, “Yeah, that’s cool.” But then there’s also the backlash against hustle cultures, like, “No, no, guys, Big Tech is just pulling the wool over your eyes. They want you to think hustling is all that because they benefit from that if you’re the employee and you’re hustling.”

But then there’s the flipside as well, in terms of, like, “Oh, someone’s trying to be…” I don’t know if this slang is still in popular usage, but I’ve heard it before at times, like, “Oh, oh, he’s trying to be extra, and that’s not cool. It’s not cool to try to be extra,” or another word for ambitious. And yet, one of my favorite Onion articles, we’ll link in the show notes, headline: “Man’s Utter Failure in Life A Bit Of A Sore Spot.”

And so, it was like, “Ha, ha,” and that’s the joke. It’s like, “Of course, it’s a sore spot.” And so, we’ve got all of these conflicting messages from the outside, as well as I’m thinking about in my own world. I studied finance in college, and so we learned very firmly that the sacred duty of the firm is to maximize shareholder wealth.

And so, now as I’m doing my own business thing, it’s like that idea was just in there. And it was kind of a revelation, it was like, “No, Pete, you can see an opportunity to go get money and just not do it because you don’t want to. That’s okay.” And it was like, “Wait, it is?” And yet, if it was a different context, like if I were the CEO of a publicly traded company, that I kind of do have a legal duty to go after that and could get sued if I don’t. So, yeah, it’s quite easy to get all mixed up on this subject, Kathy.

Kathy Oneto
It really is. I studied undergraduate finance as well, so this is in my brain. I have an MBA as well. And I think what we all can benefit from remembering is we humans live amongst constructs. We make up these constructs. Yes, sometimes there’s math and science behind them, but there’s one person who determined that, “Why does a firm exist? To maximize shareholder value.” Well, there were other constructs before Milton Friedman said that as to why firms existed and how firms got ran.

And so, we can challenge some of these norms around, “Well, how do we define success? How do we define what ambition is?” And I think that’s where I’m inviting people to really reclaim that and to determine, “What is work? And what is worthy work? And what is worthy of your effort?”

And I think, in today’s culture and society, we often think it has to be tied specifically to monetization. And so much, you brought up technology companies, so much of this world of, like, social media, we kind of are called into, you know, we need to monetize ourselves. And so, this is an invitation to also kind of say, like, “How do you want to define work for yourself?”

And, yes, work that is your professional life is important, but there can also be other aspects of work that can really be soul-filling and keep you sustained as well, and can be important parts of who you are, and can really allow you to have more holistic ambitions than just think that our ambitions are solely about our professional life, which I think is something that people also get wrong about ambition.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you’re right, and it’s fascinating. Now I’m thinking, this is so dorky, Kathy, but what comes to mind is one of my all-time favorite games that’s really shaped the way I think about the world and resources was from 1992 called “Master of Orion.” And you try to conquer the galaxy with your alien race and do resource management, yadda, yadda. And so, I just thought it’s the coolest game and sometimes I’ll still play it.

And I just learned that this guy, his name is Ray Fowler, just decided that, “Yes, this game is fantastic and the new generations need to know about it.” And so, he just created, by himself and with collaborators that he hired with his own money, to create a whole new version of this for the modern era called “Remnants of the Precursors,” and just gave it away for free.

He just spent multiple years of his life making this thing, because he thought, “You know what, this is an amazing game and the world needs to know about it and not be turned off by the old graphics or interface or whatever, and so I’m just going to do that.” And it’s just free.

And it’s fascinating because there’s some ambition and there’s no money whatsoever, and his motivations, as far as I could tell, I’ve tried to stalk him and learn, it’s just that, “No, this is an amazing game and the world should know about it so I’m just going to make that possible.” And he went and did it, and we’re enriched for him having done so. And we can all do that, we have permission to do so, and he seems quite pleased that he made that choice.

Kathy Oneto
I love that. And that’s what I would call a right ambition, right? It’s something that, for him, is personally rewarding and satisfying, I would imagine, and he felt was worthy of his effort. And I think more of us do this more often than we probably realize and recognize. And I think what’s important is acknowledging that and claiming that as something that is really worthy of your time and your effort.

Somebody who I interviewed on my podcast, we really went into this distinction between paid work versus non-paid work. And I, even for myself, have thought about my own work in this context, and really struggled because people ask me, “Well, why do you call that your paid work?” versus this is what I would call my service work or my creative work.

And perhaps only because I was asked, I was kind of like, “Hmm, maybe I shouldn’t be calling it that.” But in this conversation with this guest, it really became, for her, this distinction between saying it’s paid versus non-paid work, really allowed that non-paid work to be on equal footing with her paid work. It serves her and it fulfills her and satisfies her and, frankly, sustains her so greatly that is just as valid and just as important in her life to be putting her time and attention to those activities.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. Well said. Because if it’s not work, is it a “distraction” or a hobby? The other words we have available to describe such things are a bit diminutive in, like, “Well, of course that’s not as important as your job. That is of utmost importance.” So, there is some handy language pieces there, which I appreciate.

And I also want to talk about ambition, in and of itself. There are some negative connotations, there are some positive connotations. But, as I think of other words that are virtues, that we could all just kind of agree that, “Yeah, it’s a good thing to be fair or kind or patient or humble.” And, of course, you could take these to some extremes and that might be not ideal.

But how do you think about the word ambition and what makes it good or bad or virtuous? You use the words right and wrong a lot. Can you unpack a little bit of that?

Kathy Oneto
Yes. Let me start with the last thing you said because I think this is really important to distinguish. I talk about in my sustainable ambition method that, really, where I’m pointing people is to find more sustainability by aligning the right ambitions at the right time with the right effort. And what’s really important about using that term right is that, actually, I don’t think that there’s necessarily a wrong. It’s that right is making sure that it’s right for you.

Pete Mockaitis
But it could also be wrong for you if it’s not right for you?

Kathy Oneto
Perhaps that’s fair. That’s fair. That’s a good pushback, yeah. But the distinction, and what I appreciate about what you just said, was this is individual, it’s personalized. And I think where I’m trying to point people, or where I am pointing people, is, for a lot of our lives, we are influenced by external factors, by social norms, and these things guide us.

But I’m calling people to step into a self-authored mind, and starting to say, “What do I want for myself? How do I step into what I want and make this personal?”

And so, I appreciate what you just said, Pete, which is, “It’s wrong in terms of what’s personal for me. Meaning, like, I’m going after a should as opposed to something that’s not aligned to who I am and what I really want for myself.” So, I think that’s how I think about that context.

I also think that ambition is good. It is what motivates us to shape the things that we want for ourselves in our lives and what we want for the world, and it’s what pulls us forward. But it can also, I talk about this idea that there’s a U-curve of ambition, similar to the U-curve of performance, where if your ambition is too low, you can get into this, what I call stagnant zone. If your ambition is too high and you’re driving hard all the time, or you’re in this unproductive sense of striving, you can get into the severe zone.

And so, it really is about, “Well, how do I dial in my ambition to be kind of the right level so that it is sustainable for myself?” So, I guess that’s how I think about it in terms of this context of, like, “Well, how do you dial it in to be just right for you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say U-curve, I’m already imagining I have axes and I have a U. Can you go into some depth here?

Kathy Oneto
Sure. So, on the Y-axis is sustainability, from low to high, and on the X-axis is ambition, from low to high. So, if you’re low ambition and low sustainability, you’re going to be in the stagnant zone. If you’re in the middle, around the right level of ambition, you’re going to be in the optimal sustainable ambition zone.

And then if your ambition is too high, you’re starting to get into this area of, “Okay, now my sustainability is starting to come down because I’m really, perhaps, either I’m not aligned to what my ambitions are, I’m too externally focused, or I’m really in the sense of unpredictable striving, where I’m really just driving hard all the time. I’m not taking breaks. I’m not prioritizing other aspects of my life that are important to me, that matter, that also help keep me sustained.” So that’s how I think about that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so, as you describe this, this sort of sounds like a lowercase N as opposed to a U, if that’s the curve, as we follow. Is that accurate? The optimal would be a medium-ish level of ambition, which is maximumly sustainable?

Kathy Oneto
Yeah, the optimal level is, like, in the middle, right, if that’s what you’re describing. But the U is kind of an upside-down U. So that’s why you’re saying, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. All right. So, there we have it. So, we have an upside-down U or lowercase N, if you will, curve, with the optimal level of ambition for sustainability being somewhere in the middle. And that makes sense, because if you’re going minimally, life is kind of, “Ugh, meh, whatever.” It’s kind of depressing. And if you’re going to the max, it’s like this is exhausting and anxiety-provoking and just a crazy town, not a great place to be.

So, I hear what you’re saying is that midpoint of ambition in the optimal is sustainable because it’s sort of like you’re challenged, it’s fun and interesting, but you’re not overwhelmed and you’re not bored. This kind of reminds me of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s perspective on flow, with kind of any given challenge of the moment that you’re in.

Kathy Oneto
Right. And if you start to get into where that challenge is overly stressful, it starts to also take you not into that optimal sense of flow, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, a great thing you said earlier about not going after a “should,” which would just be the sort of, like, the socialized perspective of whatever people say just is the thing to do, like, “Oh, you should do that.” And I always, I’ve been criticized for taking things super literally at times, but, like, with your U and your N.

But when people say should, it’s interesting. They could say to all sorts of things like, “Oh, I should really get back into…” whatever, TV show, or game, or thing. And I often will directly challenge them, it’s like, “Should you really? Would that be optimal for you?” It was like, “I mean, probably not. No, I’ll just continue not watching that show. And that’s probably actually the right choice for me. Cool. Thanks.”

So, can you unpack a little bit? What is right ambition, right time, and right effort?

Kathy Oneto
So, right ambition is, again, I talked about redefining success based on your own terms. And so, this is really about shifting from looking at that external lens and starting to say, “What is going to be personally rewarding to me?” And it’s starting to look at what you want to do.

So, again, it’s shifting from that external to internal motivation and really getting clear on what internally motivates you. I point to four different areas in the book around this. What’s your vision? How do you like to give or contribute, which a more common lexicon that gets used these days is purpose? I look at values, and then also what you love to do, intrinsic motivators. And so, that’s really about, “How do you motivate your effort around what you’re pursuing?

Right time is about considering your life and work together, and is focused on choosing, “Well, where do you want to put your attention, your effort, your energy based on really what’s personally important matters most in your life and work now?” And so, this is shifting a mindset from doing it all to really focusing on doing what matters and helping you focus your effort.

And then, finally, right effort is about really being discerning about the level of effort you’re putting towards your ambitions and goals rather than just thinking you should be putting a ton of effort into everything. Ambition is often tied to this idea that it’s, like, maximum effort. But then it’s also being discerning about, “How am I really managing my effort and my energy so that I do keep myself sustained over time?”

So, this is really about managing your effort and energy, shifting from constant drive to really being more strategic about how you manage your effort.

Pete Mockaitis
Now you said right time was about doing what matters. Can you help me distinguish all the more clearly? That kind of sounds like right ambition, if it’s in conjunction, if it’s working with my vision values and what I like to do.

Kathy Oneto
No, this is great. So, those two things work together, in terms of like, so right ambition is like, “Okay. Well, how do I ascertain, like, how I either define success on my own terms,” or defining my goals and even checking like, “Are these things that I truly want to do?”

Right time is about, “Okay, great.” If I think about my vision for my life, I might say, I’ll take a very simple one that is’ve had an ambition or goal that I’ve wanted to do all my life, which is to live abroad for an extended period of time. I’ve not been able to make that happen in my life.

So right time is really about, “Well, what is most important now? How do I think about both, what do I have energy for now and what really is urgent for me to pursue at this moment in my life? What is my life context or what am I being called to do right now such that I’m making this a priority in terms of what’s important in my life at this moment in time?”

So, these two things do work together, but I invite people into, “Well, how do you think about your life in arcs and periods and thinking about horizons? And how do you think about what really is important now in this moment? And what might you shift out to different time periods? What might you say, like, ‘Okay, this isn’t a priority right now. I actually am going to put this on the back burner for now and allow myself to focus my attention on what matters to me at this moment.’?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. So, given the season and the context of what’s up, that will vary.

Kathy Oneto
And your stage of life as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. Well, let’s talk about the right level of effort. What are some of the telltale signs where our effort is too little or too much?

Kathy Oneto
I think, in terms of if our effort is too little, it could be that you yourself are feeling like you’re stagnating, that you’re not making progress, the kind of progress that you want to see. It could be that, again, it goes back to the first thing I said, like, “What is your energy level?”

But, like, even if your effort isn’t the right level of effort, that may start to bring into question, like, “Huh, is this the right ambition for you at this time?” So, checking in with your energy level and whether or not you’re putting enough energy into something is a really great clue as to whether or not you’re motivated around pursuing something or not.

I think, on the other side, and the other extreme in terms of “Are you putting too much effort into something?” is, “Do you start to feel like you are ignoring certain things in your life that really matter to you and are important to you? Do you feel like you’re constantly driving hard all the time and you’re never taking breaks?”

“Are you starting to feel, you know, are there physical symptoms that you might not be operating at your best? Are you starting to have health problems that are giving you clues that you are potentially putting too much effort into all that you are trying to do?”

So, there are a number of different signals that you can be looking for in terms of this sense of, “Am I putting a little too much effort?” It can start to become like these signals that can be associated with workaholism, and there’s different factors around workaholism that can start to show up, which are not just behavioral. They can be psychological. They can be biological as well in terms of these health aspects too.

Pete Mockaitis
And what about those tricky situations where it’s, like, “I really want the results and outcomes of a thing, but I really just don’t like doing the work to get there”? For some people, that might be in the fitness zone, that could be in the business career finance zone. What do we do with these matters?

Kathy Oneto
There’s a couple of different ways that one can manage this. So, one is, “Is this something that, in terms of pursuing a goal, something that you don’t really enjoy doing? Is it something that you yourself have to do or is it something that you can outsource?”

And where you can get help and support so that it’s like, “Well, this isn’t my zone of genius. So, as this part of this ambition or goal, I’m going to hire out or have somebody help me achieve some of these aspects of what I’m trying to pursue that can actually help me reach that goal.” That is a possibility depending on what the ambition and the goal is.

Then there’s the other side, which is, sometimes these are things that we have to do ourselves. I’ve experienced this, too. And I think you have to question, “Well, how committed are you to that ambition and goal? And how much do you want that result?”

So, that’s one way of going at it, which is, “Okay, I am really committed. This is going to be the way that I’m going to pursue it. I’m going to go ahead and do some of these things that I don’t love because I really want to achieve that goal.”

I think the middle way is to challenge, like, whether or not you need to be doing the specific thing that we think we need to do in order to achieve that goal, and whether or not there is a middle way that one can find that is actually better aligned to who you are and what your values are.

Sometimes, again, it’s kind of like, “Well, this is the external norm of how something is achieved, but is there actually a way that I can achieve the same outcome and the same results, and do it in a way that is better aligned to who I am?”

Pete Mockaitis
Can you give us some fun examples of folks who have done just that?

Kathy Oneto
I would say that one of the examples is, I’m thinking about somebody who is, like, she has grown her business, and she’s not on social media. And I think the norm these days is, “Hey, I need to be on social media, and I need to be building a significant following.”

And she has taken a completely different approach that is much more aligned to who she is in terms of building a following through an email newsletter and through offering really valuable content. And that approach has worked for her, and also through building relationships.

And so, I think that we often see examples or think that there’s only one way to go about achieving a goal. And yet, there are ways to realign towards something that is better aligned to oneself. I’ll say, even on this, around my book, I would say I’m not a huge fan of social media either.

And so, a way that I am going about this that is much more resonant for me is to, what I want to be doing is talking about this topic as well as connecting with people and partnering with people to get this message out. And that’s a way that I am approaching this in a way that is much more resonant and aligned with my personal values.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s lovely. I’ve experienced that, people say, “Well, you’ve got to get on Twitter. You’ve to do all the things.” And there are numerous counter examples. I’m thinking about Cal Newport famously just doesn’t do much on social media. His books are doing great, and that works just fine for him.

So, that is a fine thought, to challenge the conventional wisdom. Although, to perhaps also be cautious not to fall for, I don’t know, snake-oil, get-rich-quick, the Ab Belts, which does your workout for you, kinds of things that promises of low-effort results are often misleading. So, I guess maybe that’s a distinction to draw there.

Kathy Oneto
I think that’s important. One of the things that I talk about with Sustainable Ambition, too, which may surprise people, is I believe in hard work. I think it’s just being really discerning about, “Where do you want to put in that hard work?” And also, being really discerning about, “How are you going to sustain yourself in the process?”

And so, I think that people may be naïve in thinking that there are these get-rich-quick kind of schemes, but I think, like, even something like get on, create a digital course, or get on social media, or do these various things that I think are quite common are often posed as being that you can have this immediate success, but that’s often not the case.

Pete Mockaitis
That, indeed, it is. So, when it comes to being sustainable, taking care of ourselves, resting, recovering, rejuvenating, do you have any pro tips on how you think about how much time we spend doing that, and/or if there are any research-backed approaches that are phenomenally efficient and effective at giving us rest, recovery, rejuvenation with a relatively modest investment of our time and other resources?

Kathy Oneto
I think what’s really important here is a couple of principles. One is to think about sustainability on different timeframes. And I think what can help people is to make sure that they’re, I mean, it sounds so simple, but the problem is people don’t do it, which is to think about sustainability on a longer time horizon.

I think why people can often get tripped up with work-life balance and that concept is that they think that, “Oh, I’m supposed to be in balance all of the time.” And yet, again, there’s going to be intense time periods. That’s a reality of life and how our life and work, work together.

And so, are you thinking about a broader time horizon, 12 to 18 months, and kind of ascertaining, “When am I going to take those down times? And when am I going to give myself those breaks so that I can keep myself sustained over time?”

And then the other, in the opposite direction, I would say, I think where people can get this wrong is thinking that they need to make all these big gestures in order to keep themselves sustained over time. And what I really advocate, and, again, it’s quite simple, which is, like, make sure you’re taking small breaks regularly. And the problem is that most of us don’t take those breaks.

And so, research by Slack a couple of years ago found that about 50% of knowledge workers around the globe don’t take breaks during the day.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, wow, so they would know. Slack, they can tell you, “Slacking nonstop, guys.”

Kathy Oneto
Exactly. And some people challenge me on that, like, “Ah, people probably are taking breaks,” but often they’re checking email or they’re looking at social media or they’re checking their Slack. It’s not necessarily really getting themselves that psychological detachment that they need from work. And so, I think it’s being really discerning again about, “How am I taking these breaks?”

And things like a five-minute walk outside, five minutes of deep breathing, being in nature, going and talking with a friend, five minutes of daydreaming, are all these things that are quite simple to do and don’t have to take a lot of time, and yet, really, can help us reduce our stress in the moment and keep us sustained for a longer period of time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I love these, and then you can get as wild and weird and unique as you want to with whatever you’re up to there. And with these five-minute breaks, I imagine there’s going to be some variation person to person, but do you have a range of just how many or how often are these five-minute breaks optimal for folks?

Kathy Oneto
Well, I’m going to borrow from a colleague, John Briggs, who wrote a book called The 3.3 Rule, which is based on some science that he has rooted in his book, which is this idea that we really shouldn’t work more than three hours at a time.

And there’s different studies out there. That’s a maximum, but there’s different studies out there around, like, the optimal amount of time that one should work. But what his 3.3 Rule is about this, like, for whatever amount of time you work, take a 30% break after it.

And so, you can use that to kind of have as a gauge in terms of how often one should be taking a break. So, no more than three hours and then taking an appropriate amount of break after that. Personally, one of my greatest tools that I really pay attention to and use myself is just really being tuned into my own personal feelings and my energy.

And I kind of follow my energy in terms of paying attention to, “When am I starting to get distracted? When am I starting to lose focus?” And that’s typically a clue for me that I’m ready for a break.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Kathy, tell me, any final do’s, don’ts, tips, tricks before we hear about your favorite things?

Kathy Oneto
I think sustainability really lives in being aligned to who we are, so get to know yourself.  The other is to pay attention. Things change on us. And, oftentimes, part of what causes that angst that I talked about earlier, Pete, is that we’re thrown off when things change on us.

And I think that we often need to start to plant seeds and start to try new things much earlier than we realize. And so, paying attention, starting to lean into curiosity, try new things. And then the final thing I’ll say is to remember that this is a practice. Oftentimes, people can be hard on themselves when things start to go off track.

And that’s a reality and also helps us start to understand where are the boundaries around how do we want to define sustainability for ourselves. So, I encourage people to just embrace the practice of it all and learn along the way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kathy Oneto
Yes, this is from Benedictine monk brother, David Steindl-Rast, where he said, “The antidote to exhaustion is not necessarily rest. The antidote to exhaustion is wholeheartedness.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kathy Oneto
One of mine is from Sonja Lyubomirsky and Laura King, which talks about how, if we focus on putting our attention on personal success linked to fulfillment, satisfaction, and happiness, that is more likely to lead to external success than necessarily the other way around.

So, if we are just focused on external success, that is not going to necessarily lead to us being happy. But if we focus on, what the studies have shown, generally, is that if we focus instead on what’s really meaningful and motivating to us first, it’s more likely that that external success is going to follow.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Kathy Oneto
One is called What You Are Looking For Is in the Library. It’s a novel by Michiko Aoyama.

And then the second is the Monk and Robot books by Becky Chambers. One is called A Psalm for the Wild Built, and the other is A Prayer for the Crown Shy. And I just love these for the philosophical questions that they pose that are, for me, squarely centered around sustainable ambition.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with your clients?

Kathy Oneto
“It’s not sustainable if it isn’t yours.”

Pete Mockaitis
Can you elaborate?

Kathy Oneto
Well, it’s really this idea that, again, sustainability is rooted in what’s personally motivating to you and what really matters to you. And so, if you’re pursuing things that are external from you, that are a “should,” or what others want for you, are what society says, at some point, we often reject that and it’s not sustainable.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kathy Oneto
They can find me at my website, SustainableAmbition.com, on LinkedIn, and on my podcast, Sustainable Ambition on their favorite podcast player.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for someone looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kathy Oneto
I just shared this a little bit earlier, but I’ll reiterate it, which is to really pay attention to how you’re feeling and, again, to be curious and look ahead, and start to think about what might be next much sooner than you think. So, always be learning, always be experimenting, always be taking good risk.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Kathy, thank you.

Kathy Oneto
Thank you so much, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Lola, welcome!

Lola Linarte
Hi, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
I am excited for this conversation. We are talking personal branding, and we’re old friends, so I can just give it to you straight.

Lola Linarte
That’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
I think I’m been a little biased against personal branding because of – what is it – like the first exposure rule, like a first impression rule, because my first exposure to the concept of personal branding came from the movie, I don’t know if you remember this one, is one of those Disney pieces. It’s called “The Kid” from the year 2000, starring Bruce Willis, where he meets a young version of himself, little Rusty, and they have an exchange.

So, Bruce Willis works, and here’s the exchange. Rusty says to older Russ, “So what do you do?” And Russ says, “I’m an image consultant.” Rusty says, “What’s that?” Russ says, “I help people present themselves in the best possible light. I tell them what to say, how to act, and what to wear.” And then Rusty says, “So you help people lie about who they are.”

So, as a young, impressionable fellow, I guess I was 17, I encountered this and I thought, “Oh, man, is that what an image consultant is? Is that what personal branding is? That doesn’t sound like a good thing.” But I know you and you’re an upstanding person. So set the record straight for us, Lola.

Lola Linarte
Yeah, no, I mean, that’s so interesting. So, you’re Rusty in this analogy.

Pete Mockaitis
I was. I mean, I’ve warmed up over time, but, you know, first impressions can stick.

Lola Linarte
No, and I get that, right? And, I mean, that is the common misconception. I hear that all the time, right, about what personal branding is, and I really enjoy that. I love a misconception because I love proving it wrong. But, whether you like it or not, if you spent absolutely any time online, if you’ve sent an email, if you’ve started a social media account, if you’ve done a presentation, so if you spent any time in front of a single human, you have a personal brand.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Lola Linarte
It’s how you pitch yourself. It’s what people think about you. People have impressions of you. So sometimes people ask me, “Well, I’m a plumber. Do I have to have a personal brand?” And I’m like, “They’re not separate things. You are your story.”

So, I think that when people think of a personal brand, they think of like an entity, a business, and your brand is just a story. Your brand is your reputation, and it’s just up to you whether or not you’re going to control it or neglect it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so my brand is a story, it’s a reputation, and it exists, just period, because humans are forming impressions of me and saying things about me. So, a story and a reputation attached to me just exists, period, fact.

Lola Linarte
Right. We have interactions with people, and, to your point, we’re already making assumptions about them immediately, good or bad. And one of the things that I ask people, not even my clients, is, “Do you know what happens when we Google you? And if you do, do you like what comes up? And if you don’t, let’s control that.”

And that’s what it is. It’s not lying. It’s just more about controlling the narrative. And what does that mean? Okay, well, are you putting enough work out there that is relevant to where you currently are now, right? I’m sure if I Googled you, I’m sure your podcast would pop up. But, you know, maybe you’re thinking, “Oh, well, maybe my podcast is popping up, but this isn’t. Why?”

And we would ask those questions and then we would come up with those strategies to do that. We wouldn’t take the Bruce Willis approach and lie about it, which I think I’m so glad you started with that because so much of my work is so different, which is why I decided to do what I do because it’s not rooted in aesthetics. It’s not rooted in making you into something you’re not.

It’s bringing out what you already are in a more aligned way and then amplifying that to the world instead of lying it and making it into this pretty thing that’s not sustainable for you because that’s not who you are.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Lola, you’re really striking some chords, and I’m thinking, you know. I think if you Googled me, it might still be pretty high up there. I should probably take a look. It’s been a while. I recorded a silly video when I was 26 as a speaker reel to do more college keynote speeches, which was fun and silly and cool and was effective. I got some bookings, and shout out to Ian who filmed it and did a great job.

But you’re right in that, for now, 41-year-old Pete Mockaitis, podcaster, professional, business owner, etc., that is not one of the first things I want people to see. That’s more like, “Hey, we’re at a cocktail party. Let me show you this silly thing and we’ll have some laughs about it,” as opposed to, not the ideal first impression, so then, maybe, I should make some efforts to address how that shows up, and say, “Yo, Ian, let’s maybe take my last name off of that so the YouTube video is not so…”

Lola Linarte
“Make it a little more ambiguous.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Not so prominent.” Okay. Understood. So, it makes sense. We have a brand, whether we like it or not, and we may benefit by putting forward some effort into shaping that. So, could you share with us maybe some cool success stories of, “Is this really worth the time and effort? Can I just do me?” Tell us what kinds of good things happen when we put a little bit of effort into this?

Lola Linarte
Yeah, could you go about your day, about your life? Yeah, you can. But any time you put… What’s that’s saying is like, “The grass is green where you water it.” Anytime you put intention behind something, it can’t help but flourish.

So, I have one particular client who is a psychiatrist out of East LA, and up until this point, that’s what she’s done. She’s had a very successful private practice out of East LA, but she got to the point where a lot of my clients do and she thought, “Well, what now? What’s next?”

And she realized, “Okay, I want a new iteration of myself. What does that look like?” She didn’t want to keep coasting. And she could have just kept having a great and successful private practice.

So, she decided to lean in, and say, “Okay, well, I want to see about having trauma-informed businesses and be a speaker. And I also want to help CEOs be better versions of themselves and train them to be better CEOs. But I don’t know exactly how to do that.”

So, we pushed go. And I have a process, I have a framework that I use with my clients that we’ll talk about later, but I brought her through that process where we got really clear on what she wanted to do, and she now has put a backseat to her private practice.

I use the pie of, so she’s now, instead of 90% of her income is coming from that 33% on purpose. And now a majority of her income is coming from her speaking, and that’s giving her so much more fulfillment, much more joy. And that’s something that she’s always wanted to do but didn’t allow herself to do. And through branding herself, unknowingly she leaned into her story.

What the heck does that even mean? That means that she was uncovering that part of herself that she was limiting. And now she’s doing that.

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s really cool, and that makes total sense how that can be super powerful when you’re going to the market as a speaker, “And this is this is what I’m offering.” And because, in many ways, your story is a part of “the product,” “the service,” “the offer” that is a keynote speech from this person, and their story, their background, where they’re coming from, what they’re going to be putting out there.

So, I could see that that 100% makes perfect sense to really think about that carefully and put the thought into it and make it awesome. I’m curious, for regular folks with regular jobs, with regular stories, is it still worthwhile?

Lola Linarte
Absolutely. I think about, I have an attorney who has just decided that she wants to lean into a different form of practice of law. She likes her job. She wants to stay in law. She doesn’t want to create her own business. She just decided that where she’s been for the last nine years served her well, and she’s ready for something different.

So, we optimized her LinkedIn. That was a good first step for her. We did new branding headshots, something she had never done. We decided to take a really good look at her resumes, just simple things, things that people neglect after a while. You’re in your job after two, three, four years, you’re coasting. You don’t really think to “zhuzh it,” you know, why would you? Simple things like that, actionable things like that.

Your headline on your LinkedIn, people don’t even think about, your banner on LinkedIn. And then even buying your own domain on the web, buying your name on there, getting that for yourself. Simple things like that. Just having a landing page for her to control, just taking control of her narrative. And so, that now when she goes to, and she’s actively applying to jobs, she just feels more in the driver’s seat as she’s applying to jobs.

So, she’s not going to start a brick and mortar. She’s not going to be having a TED Talk, but she just feels like she is absolutely in control of her talking points as she’s speaking to the next interviewer for her next job.

Pete Mockaitis
Lola, I really appreciate when you share these things. They feel very practical and sensible and, “Ah, yes, but of course,” as opposed to, sometimes branding can feel a little bit airy-fairy in the sense of color palettes.

Lola Linarte
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Which, you know, I’m sure some people look good in certain colors. Okay, that’s a thing. I’m not very good at that, but that whole domain of design. But this is super practical, like straight up, there are people Googling you, seeing your profile on LinkedIn right now. Are they encountering something that is going to be supportive for you and your goals? And I’m thinking about LinkedIn, it’s quite telling. It’ll actually tell you how many people saw your profile recently.

And so, there very well could be dozens or hundreds of occasions in which first impressions of you are occurring that are not even in your conscious awareness, like, “Oh, yeah, I forgot about LinkedIn. I updated that four years ago when I was job hunting and haven’t looked at it since.” That’s a thing that occurs. And yet it’s well worth our time because, I’m thinking, all the time when we haven’t looked at something in a while, it is off.

And I was just speaking with another lawyer who is considering launching a podcast, we were walking through this, and I said, “Hey, on your website, I noticed you had the number for this and the number of cases and the number of damages awarded. If I divide it, it looks like there’s not a whole lot of damages awarded per case. So, if I’m a prospective client, I think, ‘Oh, maybe I’m not going to walk away with much money if I hire these guys.’”

And he’s like, “Wow! Oh, well, thanks. Yeah, we’ll get that updated.” But I’m sure if I went into some nooks and crannies of awesomeatyourjob.com, since it’s been years, I, too, would say, “Oh, geez, why is that still there?” or, “How come I didn’t mention all these awesome things that have happened in these years? Oh, I just haven’t gotten around to it.” And, thusly, I could be missing out on, who knows what opportunities of folks who are sniffing around, it’s like, “Oh, should we book Pete to do this thing? Nah.”

Lola Linarte
I mean, Pete, LinkedIn is how I knew you were doing all these awesome things with your podcasting. It wasn’t through the other forms of social media. It was because you have so many eyeballs on your podcast that the algorithm was like, “Look at this. Look at this thing.” And I thought, “Wow, this is really awesome.”

And people have misconceptions about social media and they have this ick about it, and they don’t want to think about it until they have to think about it, and then it’s too late. Then it’s too late. I mean, not like forever and ever, but you should be just kind of going with it bit by bit by bit by bit. You don’t want to get the facelift at 75. Maybe you get a little bit of work done here and there, here and there along the way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so lay it on us. You’ve got a process framework. Can we hear what’s step one, two, three? How does this go down?

Lola Linarte
Yeah. So, like I said, my clients are exceptional people, and I guide them through this three-phase process that I call anchor, refine, and resonate. So, we start by anchoring, and that’s getting crystal clear on who they are.

And this is what I call the soul work. And this is just getting clear on their identity, their purpose, and figuring out what their next chapter looks like, and what they stand for, and really prioritizing long term-goals. But also, I really get down to their limiting beliefs and where they tend to stumble. And this is really important because this helps me understand what’s kept them from elevating and from evolving, and also how they are currently showing up.

And this entire phase is all about alignment and not aesthetics. And then we move into refinement, we go to refine. So now, with all this information we have with anchor, you have all this internal clarity that you can move into external strategy.

Now it doesn’t have to be empty and lies. Like, you actually have something that’s rooted in you and that you can get so abundantly clear on your strategy being for you, and the messaging is clear for all the touch points, and we can have a cohesive message for yourself in person, online, your website, anything tangible, your headshots, absolutely everything.

And then we move into resonate. And so, resonate, what I mean by that is not you’re just posting every day, which is already hard enough. What I mean by that is you’re connecting to your audience, you know at this point what deals you’re saying yes to, what you’re saying no to, and why, and who you’re connecting to, and what opportunities are right for you, and why you’re saying yes or no.

And that’s my favorite part because we’ve distilled it down so much that, at this point, my clients are figuring it out in much faster rate, and they are just, like, happy that they’re not throwing spaghetti at a wall and hoping to see what sticks. They can identify, “Oh, yeah, I can do that and it doesn’t have to be. My version can look like my version and not what I see or what I think I should be.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so clarity on identity, purpose, what you stand for, limiting beliefs. Mercy. How does one accomplish all that?

Lola Linarte
It’s really, it’s when you ask yourself these questions. I’ve had to do that myself, right? And I do think it’s best to have someone else do it with you. You can’t do it yourself. I don’t recommend anybody brand themselves. You’re too married to your fears. You’re too married to your likes, your dislikes. You kind of have to have someone outside looking in with a 30,000-foot view, just asking you some of these questions that are kind of holding you accountable.

And your identity, right, it’s like, “Well, what are the biggest goals that you’ve had up until this point, but you haven’t?” Like, really, just understanding how you tick and just figuring out why I like certain things and what makes you, you, and being really good with that. Because I often find that my clients are, while they are brilliant and they’re high achievers, high performance, that doesn’t make them immune to being afraid of showing up fully as who they are.

They’ll sometimes hide behind their accolades, behind their degrees, behind the work, so that when it’s time to show it fully as their most aligned and rooted itself, and speak on their point of view, say, online, they are worried about maybe seeming too much, about maybe perhaps nobody wants to hear this, or maybe this is seeming like self-promotion. And I hear that a lot. And I have to remind them that there’s value in sharing their story and their knowledge and working through that.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. Could you share with us some examples of perhaps posts or statements that give us a feel for, “Hey, this is what it looks like when someone is aligned, rooted, standing for their thing, self-expressed and bold, such that it might feel like too much,” but in your take, it’s just right?

Lola Linarte
Sure. I have this incredible photographer. And she has a completely different take on what boudoir photography should be, but she was so nervous about that because she’s newer into the field and she has a different take on that. And that niche of photography is so small and so specific that people will cut you down and will cut you out.

So, they get very specific on, “It has to be this and it has to be that. If it’s not this, it’s not that.” So, the way that she was defining it was beyond that scope, and she was sort of tiptoeing around that. And she wanted to have it with a couple and she wanted the messaging just to be bolder, and she wanted it to feel cooler. She just wanted it to feel cool.

And when it came down to rebranding her, I just thought, “Man, like, share that, say the thing, say the thing that you want to say. Be bold in absolutely how your experience is.”

And that was very scary for her. She went ahead and, through how she now speaks on her social media, on all her copy, on her website, rather, she’s shown up fully as, like, “My experience is X. Expect this and it’s not that.” And, my God, now, because she’s speaking directly, it’s laser focused to the person who wants that. She’s not trying to be everything for everybody. She’s getting exactly for the person that’s like, “Ah, I found you. Oh, my God. Finally, somebody said the thing.”

And she’s now getting exactly the client that she wants. She’s creating the art that she wants to create in the way that she does.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really interesting in terms of it feels like it’s not what’s done, and it may seem improper to others. And yet that distinctiveness, assuming it’s appealing to a certain segment, will be extra super appealing, like, “Yes, at last, finally, this is what I’ve been looking for.” And I’m thinking, in professional work contexts, could you give us an example of someone living that brand boldly such that other professionals go, “Oh, yeah, that’s our guy. That’s our gal”?

Lola Linarte
So, I recently had a tech, just like a tech whiz, who’s kind of in middle of his career. And he’s kind of ready for the next move. He’s ready for what’s next, but he doesn’t exactly know what that is. And he’s trying to figure out if that means being a speaker. Does that mean just elevating in his career for the next move and getting a promotion?

And so, with him, it’s really exciting because he’s uncovering things about himself that he hasn’t just yet, and same things apply. He hasn’t looked at his LinkedIn. He’s had his website for years. He’s like, “I’ve had this thing for 12 years and I haven’t touched it.” And he’s like, “I’m sure it’s got my college resume on it for goodness sakes.”

And what we’re going to do with him is just make it current to who he is. And the beautiful thing about that is that, once he does that, you can’t help but just uncover things. When you actually spend time with yourself and figuring out next moves, because we tend to just hurry along to the next task with work, with life.

So, with him in particular, he probably does want to speak. He wants to be a speaker. He has so much that he wants to share, but he doesn’t exactly know what he wants to speak on, right? And with our work, he’s going to be untapping what those themes are. They’re already there. He loves to give back to his community. He loves to have an element of being bold.

And so, we’re going to get him out of the theory and platitudes and actually make it applicable to what he’ll end up speaking on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And speaking of theory and platitudes, I want to hear, when it comes to, let’s say the LinkedIn headline, are there any do’s and don’ts? I noticed there’s a lot of ninjas out there.

Lola Linarte
Oh, God, kill me.

Pete Mockaitis
Is it a good or bad idea to be a ninja or a thought leader? I mean, I want to hear, what are some things that you think are great ideas versus very bad ideas to be placed in the LinkedIn profile?

Lola Linarte
I feel like everyone’s a ninja. Everyone’s a ninja. Everyone’s an architect. Kill me.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. You say no to ninjas and architects. What if someone is literally that, you know, they’re in Japan, and they study these martial arts and they can throw the stars, or they actually design buildings?

Lola Linarte
If you are, please, please share that.

Pete Mockaitis
Little ninjas and architects, we may be called that, otherwise, not.

Lola Linarte
Yeah, no, I think people do that because it’s buzzy, right? People do that because they want to grab attention, because I think it’s something like a max of three seconds that we have before someone is scrolling along and moving past. So, they want to grab your attention and it’s the same old, same old. But beyond titles, that’s what I work with my clients.

It’s, like, don’t tell me what you do. Tell me who you help. Tell me how you’re different. And it’s not going to be because you’re an architect or ninja of marketing or podcasting. Just take some time to think about it. That’s always a really good first step. And something I’ve been telling my clients is maybe you don’t say, “I help my clients do such and such,” but if that’s who you are, that’s what you are, right?

If that’s, like, the first thing that comes to your mind is, “I help my clients uncover the experience of travel in the most luxurious way.” Fine, right? Because that’s something. It’s helping you not just have something generic, right, but that’s also the beauty of AI and ChatGPT. You can have something that you can play with more. But if you spend some time with it, and you curate your voice to it, you’ll come up with something special and different.

But, by God, everyone who’s doing that is just doing that because they feel like they’re unique little snowflakes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Lola Linarte
Yeah, I don’t like that.

Pete Mockaitis
So, can I hear what amazing sounds like then? If architect and ninjas, not so amazing, and I help X people do Y is okay, what’s awesome sound like?

Lola Linarte
Awesome sounds like just clear, just very clear. Like, I’ll actually pull mine up, what does mine even say? Not to say mine is the best in the world, but mine says, “Elevating influence and personal brands for high-performing entrepreneurs and executives.” And then I say, “I’m the CEO and founder of Alma Feliz Group.” What does yours say, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
I think it’s my title. I think it’s a…

Lola Linarte
Let me see yours. Podcast host and launch consultant. I love that. How to be awesome at your job. CashflowPodcasting.com, discover and share. Yeah, this is great. Yours is very good. And he did not pay me to say that.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Yeah. Well, so, yeah, I think you’re right. Well, now I’m going to go over to it too. It’s like discovering and sharing transformational wisdom.

Lola Linarte
That’s so good.

Pete Mockaitis
What’s interesting is that, I guess it’s tricky because that might feel like a corporate-y descriptor, but, in my heart of hearts, that is really what gets me fired up, like, “Ooh, I just discovered something awesome. I can’t wait to tell everybody about it.” Yeah.

Lola Linarte
And that’s exactly why that works is because, if I’m reading that, and I am, say, your desired audience, your go-to audience, I’m resonating with that. I am thinking, “Hell, yeah, I want to know what he’s discovering. What is he sharing? What is his version of transformational wisdom that he’s curating for me? And I’m locked in. I’m curious.”

You’ve already done that just with your LinkedIn bio, your headline. I want to know more. And so, it’s that easy. It really is that easy for someone. If you just were to post, “consultant” that leaves too much. It’s too much to question. Or, like, if I was just to say, “marketing and strategist.” Of what? Who cares?

Use up those characters that LinkedIn gives you there. With your “About,” you have such an opportunity there to embed key words. You can talk more about yourself in a very specific strategic way so that you tell more of a story that your experience doesn’t.

Yeah, you talk about your positions that you had, and maybe you got a promotion here and there, but yeah, your “About” can be exactly the story that you want to tell. I tell my clients to look at their LinkedIn as a landing page almost, as an extension of their website.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, understood. Well, tell me any other top do’s and don’ts you want to make sure to put out there before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Lola Linarte
I often have people come to me, and they think that personal branding is just about aesthetics. They think brand and they think it’s really just about, like you said, picking colors and taglines. And it’s really not about that. I always tell people, first, to audit where they currently are. I have a five-question audit on my website and it’s very simple. And just to do a checkpoint with themselves and to figuring out where they are, what they want, and the do’s and don’ts.

And if they don’t like where they are, where they can pivot and change. So, don’t hire a PR agent right away. Don’t start making a logo and spending a bunch of money.  Don’t skip the steps of figuring out who you are, and really figuring out your goals. Do the tedious work. Do the work right now. Do the work on your LinkedIn. Buy your website. I know that it seems like it’s antiquated. It’s not.

I know if we learned anything from last year’s TikTok blackout and Instagram blackout, where a lot of people were using that as their portfolios, that can get lost in a second. So, you want to take control of your narrative and make sure that you have complete control of where your work lies. Don’t neglect what happens when you Google you.

And, just be excited. Stay active and excited about the possibilities that can happen when you pour into your brand and your goals and your dreams.

Pete Mockaitis
Any other misconceptions to clarify?

Lola Linarte
Yeah, I hear all the time that once people have figured it out, okay, so you’ve done all the work, then they’re done. And it doesn’t work that way because I remind people that their personal brand, their story, is living and breathing, and it’s a reflection of their growth, and it evolves, just as we do.

And just as you get a new role, or you have a new position, or you’re growing in your goals and new seasons of your life, so should your brand. It should be reflecting as that. Go back to your LinkedIn, we’ve talked about ad nauseum. Go back to your website. Keep updating these things. And just recognizing your brand isn’t static. It’s growing with you and it’s unfolding in real time.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Lola Linarte
So I love this quote by Carlos Castañeda. And it is, “We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Lola Linarte
Okay, so back in the day, I thought I was going to be a professor like my parents, and I was studying, I was in a biological anthropology class. And my bioanthropology professor was telling us about symmetry in animals.

And she was saying how, in particular, this study was on peacocks and peahens, and how they had the test of one season of mating – I can’t believe I’m telling you this – on this peacock in this peahen sanctuary, and how they measured the tails, the feathers of this peacock. And nothing else changed from one season to the next. And they trimmed the feathers of this peacock the next season.

So, they tested how many peahens chose this peacock for the next season, and it lessened significantly because of the trimmed feathers on him. And I just thought that was so fascinating how something so simple could make such a significant impact on the, I guess, on the selection for them.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Lola Linarte
I love The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. And one of my clients right now, she has this book called The Habits of Healing, it’s Nakeia Homer.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Lola Linarte
Tool, like a software?

Pete Mockaitis
It could be, yeah.

Lola Linarte
Oh, man, I’m old school, Pete. I am so old school. I love a good fricking journal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Lola Linarte
Sleep Hygiene 3000. If you can figure out your sleep, your circadian rhythm, and figure out how to sleep, my God, it pays in dividends. You will be so much better for it if you can figure out a more stable rhythm of sleep.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with your clients, you hear them quoted back to you often?

Lola Linarte
“If you don’t define your brand, you’re going to leave it up to other people to do it for you.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Lola Linarte
AlmaFelizGroup.com. Alma Feliz is A-L-M-A, Feliz, F-E-L-I-Z group.com. And it’s Alma Feliz throughout all social media, and then Lola Linarte as well for me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Lola Linarte
Always take inventory of where you are. Always ask yourself if you like where you’re headed, if you like where you’ve been. Ask yourself if you’re settling. If you want more, figure out if you’re the thing that’s holding you back.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Lola, thank you.

Lola Linarte
Thank you so much, Pete.