Marco Bartolome

Pete Mockaitis
Jia, welcome!

Jia Jiang
Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be chatting. Your name has come up a few times over the years with How to be Awesome at Your Job, guests sharing transformational things they’ve read or tried. So I must start by hearing the tale of your 100 Day Rejection challenge.

Jia Jiang
Yeah, so I’ve been wanting to be an entrepreneur for all my life, but I had to delay it for a long time because I was kind of afraid of rejection. You know, I was afraid of failure, I was afraid of rejection for my family.

Eventually, I started my company at age 30. But then, as soon as I got rejected for funding, the first thought that came back to my mind was, “I’m not good at this. The guy, the potential investor, he knew much more about business than I did. So if he didn’t like my company, maybe I should change my idea or even not do this altogether.”

And that’s really a signal to me, it was like, “Man, I’m really afraid of rejection. Like, that’s a loser thinking. No people who are successful at anything can think like that, that they just wanted to quit after a rejection like that.”

So I said, “Let me overcome my fear of rejection.” Like, that’s my number one goal, overcome my fear of rejection. But I want to do it in a fun way. I’m like, “What can I have fun with rejection?”

So I started this project called 100 Days of Rejection Therapy, where, every day, I would go out and get rejected on purpose. And now I film myself doing this using my phone, and I made my first vlog. So, you know, I would go out and, like, I would ask a stranger for 100 dollars. And then the next day, I would go to ask for a burger refill after getting a burger for lunch.

Then there’s another day, I went out and I asked, I went to Costco and asked to speak on their intercom. I got a “no.” And then another day, I went to a PetSmart to ask for a haircut, to get a haircut. I asked for a German Shepherd cut, and they said no.

But I didn’t die, you know? At the beginning, I thought I was going to die. But not only I didn’t die, it was pretty fun. I had a great time, you know, and I had a good energy, you know. I was easygoing, I was making jokes. And then people started to say yes to me.

So my most famous video is, one day, I went to a Krispy Kreme Doughnuts shop and asked them to make me donuts that look like Olympic rings. There’s no way they’re going to do that, right? I’m just going to go in and make a joke.

And the donut-maker took me so seriously and, fifteen minutes later, she came up with a box of donuts that looked like Olympic rings. And she was like, “This is from me. This is my pleasure.” So she gave it to me for free.

And that video went viral. And that’s why a lot of people probably recommended my name to you, probably saw that video and saw my TED Talk later on, talking about it. So, yeah, that’s 100 Days of Rejection Therapy. It was a lot of fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s fun and it’s viral. Can you tell me, was it transformational for you?

Jia Jiang
Yeah, on a couple of levels, first of all, at the beginning, my goal was I want to come in and just ask and I don’t know what’s going to happen, right? But then I found people started to say yes to me. And I was like, “Wow, the world is different than I thought.”

I thought the world is according to a script. You ask for hard things, people say no. You ask for easy things, people will say yes. As it turned out, when I had this mindset of, “I won’t take myself too seriously, I’m going to have fun. I’m going to just go confront these fears and with a fun attitude,” that the whole script flips.

Sometimes it’s the hard request, the audacious ones that get yes, because people are curious. But also, because of me, right? I’m very relaxed and I’m fun-seeking. In that way, I exude a type of energy that people don’t push back to, right?

Sometimes if I come in really hard, people feel cornered, and they will say no to me. But if I come in very relaxed, then people would be like, “Ah, okay, maybe I’ll say yes.” So to me, it’s just a great lesson. The world is very different than I thought.

So I started teaching other people to say, you know, one, don’t be afraid of asking. Secondly, try to have fun when you’re asking. Try to have fun in whatever you do. The result will surprise you.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, so that’s a nice mindset, worldview, to not only enjoy life more but get better results. I’m also curious to hear, now how does rejection land for you. You’ve now had the 100 Days of Rejection Therapy, and I imagine subsequent rejections over the course of life and business. Tell me, how is a rejection feeling nowadays?

Jia Jiang
Yeah, instead of seeing rejection as a failure, now I see this as a start of a negotiation. I started just to be like, “Okay, cool. It’s fine I get rejected. But can I try something else? Can I ask for something else?” And I would try to ask for different things in a very fun way, in a very relaxed way.

So I no longer see rejection as a sign of signal failure, signals end. I see this as a signal to ask for more, to keep asking and have more fun to do this. So, yeah, that’s a complete mindset shift.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s great. So it’s no longer a crushing emotional situation. It’s just like, “Oh, kind of interesting. Let’s try something a little different this time.”

Jia Jiang
Yeah. I mean, sometimes it’s like a negotiation, right? It’s like, you know, “Hey, what can I do? I can’t do this. Can I do that? If you don’t like this, why don’t you like it? Okay, I learned a little more any way I can get yes.” So I started having this dialogue with the person who rejects me.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig that so much. And, I’m thinking, it totally checks out with psychological research on exposure therapy. And I lived it myself with my first book. Back in the day, I sent out a whole bunch of one-page query letters to publishers and agents, and then they would come back. And I was actually wonderful to have the experience of being rejected over 100 times via letter because I could choose, “When do I open these letters?”

It’s like, “Ooh, I’m feeling down right now. Meh, let’s maybe wait till after lunch.” And then, “Okay, now I’m ready to face this letter. Oh, and it’s a rejection. Oh, and it’s another rejection.” And, sure enough, having lived that exposure, afterwards, rejections seem like no big deal. It’s like, “I’ve been through this over a hundred times. Is that all you got?

Jia Jiang
I love your approach to it because you kind of took control of this thing. When people get rejected, they feel they lost control, right, other people are telling them what to do. But you took control of this whole process, “Even though I got rejection letters, I get to decide when to open them. I get to have the mindset that, hey, these are fun. These are, like, things that are helping me to overcome that fear,” so you decide.

This mindset is all about initiatives, right? Who’s taking initiatives? Who’s doing what to whom? If you let the world do rejection to you, then you can feel very down. You can take it very personal. But you go to the other route where, like, “I’m going to do this to rejection. I’m going to have fun with rejection.” So who’s taking the initiative, like, determines how you feel and what’s your next step.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I love it so much. We had an earlier guest, Andrea Waltz, who talked about go for no. And so it changes your whole perspective if you’re having fun with it. And, sure enough, along the way, you get some yeses, and they’re surprising, and it’s fun.

And then it just sort of changes the whole equation, it’s like, “Oh, okay. All I need to do is ask a hundred people. And then, you know, one to six of them will probably say yes. I only need one. All right. Well, let’s get to it. Away we go.”

Jia Jiang
You can ask more people, right? You ask more people, you can ask differently, the same person differently. You can ask again that person more times. You can change your location, even your environment to ask, right?

Sometimes you’re at work, you ask for something, “Oh, it didn’t work. Okay.” You ask again. Then the next time, where you go to, you have a beer or somewhere. You ask again, right? Under different circumstances, you ask.

So there are all kinds of levers you can pull after getting rejected. But most people will just get rejected, they’re like, “Oh, man, that sucks. That’s the end, right?” But shift your environment, shift whatever, right? You can try it again, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Jia, I’m going to try a hard segue here. Sometimes the rejection seems to come from within. We want to do a thing, and we just can’t muster the energy, motivation, discipline, gumption, whatever, to get her done. Your latest book is called Easy Discipline: An Unconventional Way to Achieve Ambitious Things. Ooh, that sounds real nice. Lay it on us, how do we make discipline easy?

Jia Jiang
Yeah. So for most people, we try to think about discipline as a combination of willpower and pain tolerance, right? So I grew up in China, and I grew up with this idea called chi ku. In Chinese, it means eating bitterness. It means you have an ambitious goal, right? But to achieve that, you got to eat more pain, eat more bitterness than other people.

If you eat bitterness, you’re going to eventually find your way to success. And that’s called Chuku. But the problem is I suck at eating bitterness. I don’t like eating bitterness. And it’s against human nature because, like, your motivation runs away. You start something, then, very quickly, you learn you don’t like it but you have to keep doing it because you want to succeed, you want to achieve your goal, right?

So if you let the outcome you want to achieve provide the motivation for you to keep going, that will run out in no time. And then you’re going to start not liking yourself. You get disappointed, you lose confidence. You’re like, “I’m not made for this. What’s wrong with me?” That’s a loop that a lot of people have.

You see every year, people, there’s about half of the American population make New Year’s resolutions, right, “A new year, I’m going to lose weight,” “I’m going to find a new job,” “I’m going to make more money in the new year,” and all that, “Find love.”

And then, by February, it’s done. Like, only 9% of people who make New Year’s resolutions keep them throughout the year, by the end of the year. Why is that? Because we set these outcomes we want to achieve, and somehow using this outcome to motivate us and it doesn’t work. It works for someone, I’m not saying for everyone, but most people, it doesn’t work.

And I call this bare knuckle grinding through your way to success, hard discipline. Easy discipline, on the other hand, is later on I found in life, because I failed all my life, like most of my life, because I tried hard discipline, and I was just hating myself.

And then I started trying easy discipline, which was, “What do I like to do?” Instead of just thinking about the outcome I want to achieve, “Can I find things I like to do? Can I just start with easy? If something comes to me easily, I would just do it anyway,” right?

Like, I used to love playing video games. And I played for a long time, video games. And that wasn’t discipline. No one’s telling me that, you know, “Wow, you’re very disciplined in playing video games,” because I just love doing it.

But why when it comes to work, something that’s important, we feel like we have to feel like a prisoner, we have to feel hard, we have to endure the pain to actually achieve those outcomes? What if you just have that same mindset of, “How can I play? How can I turn my pursuit, my work into play so I can keep going?” And that’s what easy discipline is about.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds delightful. And I have often wondered this. Indeed, I, too, enjoy video games. Recently, “Slay the Spire II,” it’s so good. And I will play it for more than maybe I want to, maybe more than I plan to over the course of a week.

And I thought, “Boy, if only doing the things that, you know, build wealth, health, spirituality, other goals, felt as appealing and fun to me as this video game, that would be amazing.” And so tell us, is that possible, and how?

Jia Jiang
A hundred percent. I’m not saying everything can be turned into video games-type of addictive, right? But it can get to, it’s just, I mean, there’s a spectrum, right? On one hand, it’s just dreadful. You do the work, you’re just like, “I got to do this, my goodness.” On the other hand, it’s just so delightful you cannot stop.

Most of our work, somehow, at this lower end of that spectrum, if you can just move that to the middle even, right, make this somewhat fun, make this be like, “Oh, I had a great time today working. I can’t wait to do it again tomorrow,” then that’s how you become much more successful.

I’ll give you an example. For a long time, I didn’t like exercise. Because the idea of me going to the gym to exercise, it was dreadful. And I tried it, you know, I bought gym memberships and I used it for a couple days, and they just go to waste.

I would go to the gym, and go there and sit there to see, “What do I do, man?” I’ll see all those machines, “That guy looks good. He’s doing this. I’m going to do that a little bit. And this guy’s doing this, I might do that a little bit.” Like, afterward, I was drained. I’m like, “Why do I have to come in for a buffet of movements, none of them I like?” And then, because of that friction, I don’t go anymore, right?

So I was like, “Okay, how can I remove all the frictions, and turn that into something fun?” The turning point is I started, I’m sure you’ve heard of this, P90X was actually a big turning point for me.

I started doing it because the guy, Tony Horton, he was the trainer on the DVD, right? And he was fun, and I didn’t have to think what to do. If I didn’t have to think what to do, just tell me what to do, and I would do it, and the workout is hard.

And then, afterward, I feel good. My body started to change. And then I started doing that again and again. I started doing different programs. Now, I follow this woman called Caroline Girvan. She does that on YouTube, all for free. I just follow what she does, you know, and I can’t wait. Sometimes, I feel if I don’t do it, I feel bad. And then I bought a Peloton, and I just follow Peloton. Like, they just tell me what to do, there’s programs.

So I removed all the frictions, and not only frictions, those exercises turn into fun. And now they became what I do every day. I turn this type of thing to exercise. I became a better worker, a better salesperson by using easy discipline. I became a better father by doing easy discipline. So I turned all kinds of goals I have in life that I’m not good at into something that I enjoy. And now I have a great time in everything I do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot in terms of you identified a friction point, “I don’t know what the heck to do,” and then you found a solution, “Ah, the P90X guy tells me exactly what to do. Friction resolved.” And then you do it, you feel good, you see a result, and then you look forward to it.

So it’s a very beautiful pathway by which momentum is liberated and grows. I dig that a lot. So this is a nice contrast to, you say that bullying ourselves doesn’t get the job done. Talk to us about that, the alternative approach that’s not going to work.

Jia Jiang
Yeah, the alternative is like, “I know this is hard and I’m going to do it because I’m a badass,” right? You have this mindset.

Pete Mockaitis
David Goggins style.

Jia Jiang
I’m not going to try to mention him, but I actually see a lot of people who are falling into that type of mindset. The thing is, it can work. That’s the thing. It can work, but not in the long term. Over the long term, we burn out. Like, there’s a short-term success and long-term success, right?

If you bully yourself, you’re like, “I’m going to do, like, three months of David Goggins.” Most people can’t do it. Some people can. A few can. But the thing is, you can’t turn that into a lifestyle. You just can’t.

In my book, I write about Sisyphus, in the Greek mythology, the guy would push up a rock out up a mountain just all day, and then the rock will roll back down, right, Sisyphus goes back down and keeps pushing.

And most people feel like Sisyphus because you’re always going to be pushing. The gravity is always against you. However, I have an alternative version of that story. I’m like, “Why does he keep doing it? If he has no choice, then he’s dead already, he has no free agency. But if he has free agency, that means he must go back. He must be the person who goes back down and does it.”

“And why does he do it? That must mean he likes pushing rocks, right? He’s having a good time, and that’s why he enjoys it, even though it never gets to the top.” So I was like, “Okay, how can we flip that script in our lives, in our work, for us to enjoy the work rather than just thinking about the results, just the top?”

So that’s also the cover of my book. That’s actually my T-shirt, you know. I have this, like, this guy just floating upward with a rock rather than pushing upward. So can work lift you up rather than actually push you down?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s fun. I was looking at your book and your book cover, and, yeah, “Oh, I see, that’s Sisyphus, except his rock is, like, a helium balloon floating upward.” And it’s sort of easy and enjoyable because, hey, we love balloons. My kids, they can’t get enough with a balloon and go wild.

Okay. Well, you’ve got a whole framework. So how about you walk us through that? And then I just want to go example, example, example, right, in terms of, like, “Okay, that works great for exercise. Cool. But how do I deal with email? I hate email. How do I deal with…?” Well, fill in the blank.

The thing, cold calling, you said sales, you know, “Hey, there’s a thing I need to do to get where I want to go, but, ugh, dreadful is where it lands on the continuum, far from delightful.” So maybe walk us through your framework, and then let’s just apply it again and again and again so that folks feel like, “Oh, okay, let’s get after it.”

Jia Jiang
Okay, so my framework is called EASY, so E-A-S-Y. E stands for enjoyment, right? That’s what I was talking about, “How can you turn your everyday work into fun, into more enjoyable than before, and use that enjoyment to fuel you rather than just you trying to be a badass?”

So in my book, I wrote about 12 different tools to how do you achieve easy, right? I’ll tell you one. One of the things that you want to have more enjoyment is you can be a game-changer, right? If you don’t like the game you’re playing, you can try to change the game.

For example, so you talk about this idea of making sales calls, right? If you are outcome-oriented, “I’m going to make the call,” you’re going to make the call and someone will slam the phone in your face. Some people will talk to you, give you a minute of their time, and then afterward, you may succeed or not, right?

There are more rejections than success, of course. Nowadays, people don’t pick up phones anymore. It’s tough. It’s really tough. But what if you changed the game? Instead of saying, “I have to make that call. My goal is to actually make the sales. By the end, I have a contract,” or whatever, the next step.

You’d be like, “What if I change my goal just to understand that person? What if I want to have a good conversation? Can I have an actual conversation with a person that actually shows who I am but also let me learn what that person is going through? Maybe have a game to be, like, I want to find that person’s biggest problem. Whether or not I sell to that person, I don’t care. But let me change the game.”

So now you start shifting games, right? So I’m someone who very much doesn’t like talking to people. I don’t. I don’t like making these calls. But I love solving people’s problems. I started performing the role of a therapist or a consultant, that helps me a lot. Now I’m having fun, because now it’s a different goal from the goal that I didn’t like.

So you can do roleplay and change your game. Call that a game-changer. That’s how you make your work more enjoyable.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, So could you give us an example there with regard to throw a role play in there and, suddenly, a conversation that was not so fun is more fun.

Jia Jiang
Yeah, absolutely. So I used to be terrible at sales calls. Meaning, some people, like I’m great at speaking. That I know. If you get me on a stage and get me in front of your audience and talk about rejection, I can tell a great story and inspire your audience and get a standing ovation. Like, I can do that.

However, getting on sales calls is a different thing, right? Sometimes the potential client, they’re like, “Huh, this guy is interesting. I see his video. Now I got three to four potential speakers. I’m going to interview all of them to see if they’re actually crazy in real life, right? Are they who they are on the videos?”

I used to hate those calls because my mindset was, “Okay, how can I get the other person like me the most? And what do I do? And what thing does he or she likes to hear? Let me try to do a word salad or try to contort myself into a way that they will like my answer. Then, hopefully, they’ll hire me.” And that’s a terrible mindset.

I was tracking myself, “What’s my sales success rate?” I was at 18%. Like, I was getting rejected for most, like almost every time, but 18%

Pete Mockaitis
And they found you. They found you.

Jia Jiang
They found me. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re on the short list of finalists and there you’re only getting 18%. Okay.

Jia Jiang
Yeah. And I was like, “Well, I’m the rejection guy. I mean, I can take a rejection, that’s fine. But, man, this seemed like a drudgery.” So I started changing my two mindsets, right? The first, I’ll tell you, is “How do I have more fun? What if I changed my goal? Instead of thinking about how do I make them like me, what can I say to impress someone, let me be a consultant. Let me come in and maybe ask you questions.”

“What’s your business like? And what’s your goal? Why did you actually pick me as a candidate? Like, why? What are you trying to achieve? What is the everyday struggle of your audience member, of your association member, or as an employee who attends this event? What’s the day look like? Huh?” Then, right away, the dynamic changes.

Now I’m asking really good questions, and they would feel like, “Oh, this is a good question,” and they started telling me. Then I started getting a lot of information. The more information I get, the better solution that I would provide. So I do a role change, now I become a consultant on sales calls.

Boom! I had a better time. I like it a lot more. I’m no longer so afraid because now I’m just asking questions. There’s nothing wrong with asking questions and trying to understand the other person, right?

So that’s one thing that I can do to dramatically increase my…I do two things. I’ll tell you another thing, too, my other two things. But with the combination of these two things, I was able to get to 94% of success rate.

Pete Mockaitis
Hotdog!

Jia Jiang
It was dramatic. I mean, I track everything. And then after, I was like, “Man, I’m great at sales calls.” So that’s the first thing I did. So it’s, like, the enjoyment will make me like it more.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, what’s the other thing?

Jia Jiang
The other thing is the A, right? A stands for artistry. So E stands for enjoyment, A stands for artistry. What does artistry mean? We’re not talking about, like, drawing stuff and singing stuff, but we’re thinking about being present.

So, again, the reason I used to hate these sales is because I just didn’t like it. I didn’t like people that much, you know? I read How to Win Friends and Influence People at a pretty young age. It tells you how to make friends, right, is to be genuinely interested in other people.

I wasn’t. I was just not. I don’t like people that much. But then one day, I went to Japan. I did this traditional tea ceremony. If you’ve ever been to Japan, I highly recommend it, traditional Japanese tea ceremony.

So, basically, you’re in a room with a host, right? The host will make tea for you. And every movement and every word she says is very present. Like, that moment is, you feel it’s almost like essential, if not spiritual experience when you’re there by drinking tea.

It’s never about tea. It’s about being in the presence of another person, and you giving your best. And the Japanese have a word for this called Ichiko Ichie. It, literally, translates into one time, one meeting. It means that every time we meet, that’s the only time we’re going to meet.

Even though we might meet again, Pete, again in the future or wherever, right, this moment will never be replicated. So, because this is a unique moment, I better be fully present, I better be giving my best. I translate this into the artist mindset because that’s what artists do. Artists take whatever the world gives to you and you make art in that moment. So nothing is perfect but you go deep with this moment.

Now how do I translate to sales calls? When I take the artist mindset into my sales calls, I’m no longer afraid. I just go deep. Everything the other person says, I reflect and I talk back. I dig deep into that conversation and forget about trying to impress someone. I forget about I’m trying to be good.

Every time, you know, if I get picked, I make over $20,000. I mean, let me forget about that. Let me just be having the best conversation. Let me give you my best. By having that mindset, the artist mindset, my goodness, I become a much better conversationalist. People like me more.

The result is people like me more, people buy me more, and I turn these sales calls into little pieces of art. And that’s how I went from the combination of both, right, the role-playing, the change of role, but also trying to make art. And I went from 18% to 94% of closing rate.

Pete Mockaitis
And so when you’re making art, it’s funny. I’m kind of feeling internally the shifts in terms of a lot of good things are happening automatically, like embedded within that notion, making art, just there in terms of like, one, yeah, you’re not thinking about yourself, the self-consciousness just disappears.

And just imagining, like, Bob Ross, or whomever, you know, with his happy little trees on the canvas, just that mindset and that groove, it’s calm, it’s present, it’s curious, it’s fun, it’s peaceful. And so it’s like, all that at once, in terms of I’m thinking about just, you know, charisma.

We recently had Olivia Fox Cabane on the show, and wow, you’re getting a lot of those internal vibes right, right away, just by imagining making art. But what is the art that we’re making? The art is, “I’m trying to craft a beautiful conversation, connection, understanding.” What is the art we’re crafting in this conversation?

Jia Jiang
Sometimes there’s no result, you know. I mean, you’re having a conversation where you want to be your best self. Like, the vibes, that’s all it matters. In the end, this is what easy discipline is about. If the vibe you have internally is right, you do the best work, and the other person feels it, right?

If you feel your vibe is right, very quickly, the other person is like, “Ooh, you know, this dynamic changes.” When you just think about, “I’m an artist now,” this whole dynamic changes between us, even having this conversation right now.

You start feeling differently, I start feeling differently, and then the result will be, when people are watching this, when people are listening to this, you can feel it, too, right? The vibe just changes, the feeling is good, and you get into the flow. When we get in the flow, whatever that comes out, it’s art, you know? It sounds very woo-woo, but it’s true.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And then there’s also the internal state, because, I think, in my early days of podcasting, my vibe was different. It was still of service, but it felt a little bit more, I don’t know, aggressive. I mean, I don’t think I was ever mean.

But it’s like, “Okay, the clock is ticking. You have a ton of wisdom. We have a limited amount of time. Give me more wisdom. More, more, faster, better. What else? What else? Example. Story. Illustration. Tactic. You know, it’s like I want it all. And I want it fast because the time is ticking.” And that’s not a great vibe.

Jia Jiang
Because you had a goal, right? You had a goal, it’s like, “Oh, my goal is to get as much stuff from this person as possible and still stick into this little time we have. Let’s just keep go, go, go.” And when you have that, the vibe is not right.

And there’s no art being made by saying, “Go, go, go,” right? But real art is made by, “Oh, that’s interesting. Hmm.” Maybe pause a little bit, like, “I like what you were saying. My feeling’s different.” So that’s really making art. And that always produces better conversations. and most people enjoy it more.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And so then, when you say artistry and making art, we don’t want to over-fixate on the product or the output so much as being in the vibe of we are creating something beautiful here now. And in so doing, that’s just good for everybody.

Jia Jiang
It really is. You get in flow and, usually, the best conversation of two people is just forgetting about themselves. They’re forgetting they’re in a conversation. They’re just, like, deeply immersed. And the thing is, their curiosity just pops up and you hear other people’s point of view or story. It brings the story out of yourself. You start responding with your own story. And then that’s two people co-creating art, right?

And I started having that mindset in everything I do.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. All right. Let’s hear about the S, systems.

Jia Jiang
Yeah, the system. So I tell the EASY is like four different characters. If the enjoyment is this happy go-lucky guy, that feels all good, the artist guy is like deep, right, very present. System is another character. He’s, like, very systematic, you know? What can I say?

I call this system smart. System smart is basically you try to figure out where you are, what you’re trying to accomplish, what your weaknesses are, and try to shape the environment that gets you to do more better input to get to the result.

Most people try to do work and take actions to achieve the outcome. System, meaning what can you engineer with your environment and your everyday activity, so you can actually manufacture better input that leads to the outcome? I’ll give you an example.

Okay, I learned this concept from Jim Collins, right? You know, he’s very prolific. He still keeps writing, and people ask him, “How can you be so creative and prolific? What’s your secret?” And you would think it’s like some sort of meditation, maybe some AI before anyone else had it.

And he’s like, “I have a stopwatch.” People are like, “What?” “Stopwatch.” So, it’s like, he has learned that the most creative and successful people in his endeavor, they spend at least 1,000 hours a year in 365 days to do creative work.

So he has a stopwatch, so every time, every day, when he had a conversation, when he started doing research, when he started thinking, when he started writing, doing creative work, he will start his stopwatch. And then when he’s done, he clocks out, right?

By the end of the day, he writes that number on a spreadsheet. And this spreadsheet go back to decades. He does this every day and all he makes sure is, he goes back to 365 days and it’s over a thousand hours, so cumulatively. And he said he’s never been under a thousand hours.

That’s his system. He has a system that kind of enables him to track the fun thing he loves to do. So that system works for him. I’m not saying it works for everyone. But it got me thinking, “Wow, what can I build, a system that fits me so I can be my best?”

So one of my biggest problems is this, right? Phone and also the computer. I get distracted all the time. I doom-scroll all the time. And because the world, nowadays, this whole world is engineered to distract us to get our attention. And for a long time, I didn’t like it. And, I mean, like, I want to be able to have better control of my own mind.

So I was like, “How can I have a system where I can be away from my distraction? I don’t have to find my distraction.” So every day, to write, I would go drive 45 minutes away from where I live, to this place called Half Moon Bay in Northern California.

I would park my car on the beach, overlook this ocean, and I sit in my car and write. That’s my office. I get the most beautiful view. I think I have the best office view in the whole world because of that place I park.

And then I don’t bring my phone. I don’t have my phone, so I don’t have data. I don’t have hotspot. I have none of that. I just have my computer without internet connection so I can just write, so I can fully focus.

And if my family needs to reach me, I wear my Apple Watch. I can take calls on the watch, but it doesn’t do hotspot with my watch. So I built a system for me, for me to be at my best to get the input. If I can be good at my input, the outcome is amazing.

So ever since I started building the system, my productivity just went way up. So that’s an example of system thinking, how to build a system for you to have your best work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then the Y is yourself.

Jia Jiang
Y is called yourself. And this is more like a long-term thing. I grew up in Beijing, China. I met Bill Gates when I was 14. I heard him speak. I was mesmerized by him, you know, and I was mesmerized by his entrepreneur story, this idea of using technology to change the world.

So I wrote a letter to my family, telling them, “Hey, I’ll be the Chinese version of Bill Gates. By age 25, I’ll build the biggest company in the world and buy Microsoft.” I did write that letter, my family kept it for me all those years.

And then how do I do it? I’m going to replicate Bill Gates’ life. He went to school, and then he studied computer science. I’m going to study computer science. I couldn’t go to Harvard. I came to America, right, but I didn’t get to Harvard, but I’m like, “I can go to school early.”

So I went to school at 17, I go to a college. I was like, “I’m going to finish college in three years. I’m going to come off a boy genius. I’m going to then start building my company and, very quickly, I’ll be the next Bill Gates.”

Well, the problem is I’m not Bill Gates. That’s the problem. Like, I don’t have his mind. I don’t have his interest in programming. I hated programming, and then my college was miserable. Instead of spending, like, three years to graduate, as I thought, I spent over five years. I’m not ashamed to say it because I was not a good programmer.

Even after college, I started finding jobs and I sucked at my jobs. And I worked really hard. I’m just trying to push up the rock on the hill, right, doing programming every day. Then one day, my boss called me in, he’s like, “Jia, consider yourself fired.” Okay, that’s not a good start of a conversation, no matter how you cut it, right?

But then he said, “Hey, we really like you. We see how hard you work. We like how you treat people, how genuine you are. How about we rehire you? We’ll put you in another job. How about we call this thing…?”

So they came up with a new job title called client services engineer. I’ve never heard of that job title before, I’ve never heard that since. But he’s, like, “How about you serve our customers and write a script for them, rather than writing our main software?”

And then my whole life, my whole career trajectory changed that day because I love that new thing. I love solving problems for people. I love helping them. And then I became better. I no longer felt like I was a loser. I was never fired again since then. I was having a good time. And this is called yourself.

A lot of times, we have a goal that’s from outside that either someone put it in us or we install that in ourselves. But I was, like, “Instead of having that goal, what if you actually learn who you are, and then have that dream come out of you?”

So right now, I don’t even follow that tech entrepreneur dream anymore because that’s not who I am. I’m really good at writing. Now I know I’m really good at writing, I’m really good at speaking. So I said, “What if I build my dream out of that? What if I can be a writer for the rest of my life? I’ll be happy.”

So I didn’t like myself that much before because I couldn’t get that goal, but now I love myself and I’m excelling in the things I do because I’m doing who I am. That’s yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, excellent stuff. Well, I’d love your take now, it seems like these are some big ideas that we can put into practice in all kinds of different contexts. I’d love to get your pro tips for when you’re in the heat of battle, there’s a thing you know needs doing, and now is a fine time to do it based on the calendar and opportunities and availability, and yet, “Ah, I don’t want to,” what do we do?

Jia Jiang
Try to turn that, somehow, turn that into a game, okay? Turn that into a game to see, okay, by the way, I faced this. I still face this every day. Sometimes the most important thing you know is important, and because you’re so delaying it, that feeling of delay actually makes this thing worse, right? And so you turn that into a game.

You’re like, “Okay, what can I do, and just give myself 15 minutes, just do this task? What’s the best I can do in 15 minutes? Let me contain it. All right.” Whatever that comes out, it was, like, you know, your 15 minutes is a very short amount of time, right? It depends on what the task is. But I try to contain it.

I’m like, “I’m going to go nuts in the next 15 minutes. Let me start my clock. Just 15 minutes, go nuts on this to see what kind of art I can create.” That’s the artist mindset, right? And then whatever it is, it is. And then, usually, when I get started, when 15 minutes is done, a lot of times I’m not done. A lot of times I’m like, “Actually, I’m in the zone. Like, I’m in the zone.”

To get over procrastination, the best thing is just get started. Sometimes you can’t even get started. That’s the biggest friction. But when I have this container, just 10, 15 minutes, that’s it. “Let me dig deep. Let me have fun in the next 10, 15 minutes and I’ll have a coffee.” And then you get started, right? And then a lot of times, you’ll finish a task, and a lot of times you’ll do a good job.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood. So just getting started gets the momentum going, certainly. And then, any pro tips on, in fact, the getting started part?

Jia Jiang
Yeah, I mean, I have a secret. Sometimes just getting that is hard. I totally can understand. I call my wife, I was like, “Can I borrow you?” She was like, “What do you need?” I’m like, “Can you sit with me for 10 minutes? Just watch me and do this.”

And then it doesn’t have to be your wife. It can be anyone. It can be my son. I could get my friend. And it’s like, “Hey, are we friends or what?” They’re like, “Yeah, we’re friends.” “Can I borrow you for 10 minutes?” “For what?” “Just sit here with me, watch me get this started.”

And sometimes that’s it. That’s crazy. It’s just, like, you fire up that Microsoft Word or Google Sheet, whatever you’re doing, right? You fire it up, start doing, that’s it. You get started. Having that person to get you sitting here with you, you get it started.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. Well, Jia, tell me, anything else you want to really make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Jia Jiang
A lot of times, when we’re trying to achieve something, right, and we think worse. We think we have a lot of flaws, and I used to think I had a lot of flaws, I still do. But I used to think those flaws are just there, just obstacles stopping me from achieving my dreams.

But now, those flaws are treasures, they’re assets, because I get to learn myself, and I get to bring them and try to build systems around them. And I wouldn’t be able to write this book, Easy Discipline, without those flaws. This book is all about my flaws, the how to actually turn your flaws into your treasures, into your advantages.

So whatever flaws you think you have, whatever part of you, you don’t like yourself about, switch it around. Think about those, start using, start mining those flaws, start just turning them into good stuff, and you’ll like yourself a lot more.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jia Jiang
I found this quote, and it’s from Charles Bukowski. And he was like, “Who you were before the world told you who you were supposed to be.” And I love that quote. But I even made some modification on that quote, “Who you were before you told yourself who you were supposed to be.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jia Jiang
So one of the books that really inspired me was a book called Made to Stick. It came out about 20 years ago, still one of my favorite books by Chip and Dan Heath. They write about how ideas travel.

So there’s tons of research in there. One of them is saying, when you can make an idea more surprising, the idea will travel farther. So when you make the idea more emotional, it goes farther. So, yeah, it just tells that sometimes how you tell stories, the stories you tell determines how sticky, how influential it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Jia Jiang
Drive every day. I manufacture a commute to a place I write. And during the commute, I listen to audiobooks and nothing else. I get myself in the mood. I get myself inspired. So when I stop, just ideas pop up.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear them quoted back to you often?

Jia Jiang
“Rejection is like a chicken. It’s either yucky or yummy. It depends on how you cook it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jia Jiang
You can search me on Substack, and I write. I definitely write every week and sometimes more.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jia Jiang
Find one thing that you love the most. Just figure out one thing. What’s that thing that, of all the things you do at your work, you love the most? And then you tell yourself, “What if you just go even deeper on that thing? How about you go nuts on that thing and maybe you do nothing but that thing that you love the most for your work for a day to see what happens?” And maybe that thing can become the foundation of your work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Jia, thank you. This is fun.

Jia Jiang
I had a great time. I had a great time. Thank you for having me.