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Marco Bartolome

May 15
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1058: Getting Creative Breakthroughs and Turning Them Into Action with Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle

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Dr. Zorana Ivcevic Pringle shares the tools and strategies for seeing the creative process through from start to finish.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to feel more confident taking risks
  2. How to make creative blocks work in your favor
  3. How to get the most out of AI for work

About Zorana

With more than 25 years as a scientist studying creativity, Zorana brings insights into the nature of the creative process, from the first decision to engage with new ideas to its culmination in creative performances and products. She is a scientist at Yale University, author, and speaker. Zorana’s work has been featured in the Harvard Business Review, ArtNet, US News, Education Week, Science Daily, El Pais, and others, and she is a regular contributor to Psychology Today and Creativity Post.

Resources Mentioned

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Zorana Ivcevic Pringle Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Zorana, welcome!

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to dig into your wisdom and talk creativity. And I think it’s important that we address, right at the beginning, if professionals listening, say, “You know, I’m not really in one of those really creative roles,” what do you say to that? How does learning about creativity help every professional become more awesome at their jobs?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
It helps a lot because creativity is not just for creative industries. It’s not just for R&D. It’s not just for artists. Creativity is really for everybody. And one of the favorite examples of creativity that I encountered in my consulting work was actually a supervisor in the food services unit of a large hospital. Now do you expect it there?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, no, that doesn’t sound like we’re creating TV or plays or anything in such a role.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
No, but he was really influential because he has created a completely new workflow for his workers, and that really improved their health outcomes. They were not as stressed and frustrated in their work. It was easier.

They did not have aches and pains from reaching for things, but also it made it safer for the patients they are serving because it was easier for the workers to do the job and food is part of treatment. Everybody was winning in the process of something that this particular supervisor created.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s nifty. So, the creation was kind of rearranging where the stuff was in the process flow by which we move the food and the ingredients and the serving items?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yeah, it was completely rearranging where things were, where the individual orders for tickets of what’s supposed to come on a tray were, and where individual food items were placed.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it feels like this could be a TV episode on HGTV or one of those restaurant turnaround situations. I could visualize how that could be transformational, and then maybe someone is crying toward the end because of the dramatic turnaround that has unfolded with this makeover.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
It could be. It could be. It certainly made them more awesome at their job.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, I was just going to ask for an inspiring story, and that’s a cool one. Can we have another?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Well, I think that, really, whatever you are doing, you can do something creative. I’m a scientist and I oftentimes get the question, “What is your creative outlet?” with an assumption. Well, creative outlet should be something artistic, but my creative outlet is my science and communicating about my science.

We can use creativity in everyday life. I remember a couple of years ago we had one of the really impossible seeming problems of how to arrange our summer travel. Our child was young, there were these constraints from my end, from my husband’s end, and he completely transformed this seemingly impossible puzzle problem into something that was more interesting to deal with, and that we approached in a different way when he said, “Hey, let’s take this as a creative problem.”

What happened with this challenge is that our thinking changed from, “This is an impossible problem. This cannot be assembled into a coherent puzzle,” into, “Well, how do we play with the pieces, move them around so that they end up snapping together?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, emotionally, that sounds a whole lot more fun and uplifting and edifying. But, well, now we’re in suspense, what was the ultimate solution here?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
So, what happened was that, because of different sets of travel for work for my husband and for myself, I ended up traveling with our son, who was young at the time, to Croatia where I grew up for him to see grandparents, stayed there for a week.

Then my husband came, joined me there, and ended up staying there with the child while I ended up traveling for my own work purposes. So, all was possible to do. And even, in the meantime, my husband and I went on just two of us, a trip together.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, fantastic. Well, well done. And I really like what you had to say about science being a creative outlet. I am the kind of dork who will read the full text of many scientific journal articles. And it’s actually fun to peer inside the brains of the researcher. I was just reading one about a human randomized control trial about a yoga intervention.

And so, you can tell they were really racking their brains for “What’s the control here?” Because there’s consequences. Folks could feel disappointed if they’re into yoga, and they say, “Actually, you’re in the control group. You’re not doing any yoga.” And that could skew the results one way.

And so, they were very clever, they said, “Okay, we’re going to teach them about the history of yoga and some of the language and words and context and background, and then tell them that, after the education, they’ll get a chance to do the exercises.” And that seemed to be as satisfactory as they could come up with, and there was some real creativity there.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yes, certainly, there’s lots of creativity in designing the studies and coming up with questions, and seeing how different pieces fit together and in communicating that in coherent and persuasive ways.

Pete Mockaitis
So, your book is called “The Creativity Choice: The Science of Making Decisions to Turn Ideas into Action.” What’s the big idea here? What is the creativity choice?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
There actually isn’t the creativity choice. That is a title that was a little provocative, but there isn’t one creativity choice.

We start with a single choice, but then we have to make many more, because it is not as if, “Okay, you made one choice, and now you are done.” It is recommitting to the process of choosing creativity, choosing the challenging option, the original option that could produce something of interest and something truly awesome repeatedly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, the A choice, or a key choice, from which many subsequent choices flow is just that we are going to try to create something new and different here, as opposed to just kind of continue on going with the flow.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Exactly. So, the first choice is the one, “Okay, you have an idea. Now you are deciding to do something with it.” Oftentimes, people have lots of ideas, but don’t do anything with them, don’t develop them, don’t have performances or products that come out of them. It stays in the realm of imagination and fantasy. You know, you meet over coffee with your best friend, you talk about your ideas, but it stays there.

And we oftentimes ask the wrong question of, “How did you come up with that idea?” Where, really, the more difficult question is, “You had that idea. How did it happen? How did you take something that is just in your mind into something that is in the real world?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Absolutely. It’s funny, I had the idea for Airbnb along with a friend, and then again with another friend, because we were in consulting and/or accounting, and seeing, “Hey, there’s a lot of travel, a lot of empty bedtime in this apartment. Maybe that should really turn into money somehow. This could really be a thing.”

But we proceeded to do nothing about it after we, I think we chatted with a Hyatt executive that we knew, and he said, “Oh, man, that’s a liability nightmare. Random people inside your house and vice versa. There’s going to be crimes. There’s going to be problems. It’s going to seem…” It’s like, “Okay, yeah, you’re probably right.” And then just never did anything with it. But the Airbnb folks have done pretty well for themselves by pursuing it.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Oh, I had the fabulous idea also. I am very small, so I get cold all the time. I live in New England and I had this idea to create a coat that, would from the outside, look just like a wool fancy fashion coat, and then the inside, have heaters so that you are always warm. Never did anything with it.

Pete Mockaitis
Did somebody else?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Apparently, it seems that it’s starting. So, there are now coats you can buy with heaters. On the outside that don’t look up to my standards, but it’s just a matter of time at this point.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood, yes. Well, so then, you make the argument that creativity is more about decision-making than self-expression. Can you expand on this?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Oh, I think it’s about both. So, creativity is about self-expression, in some ways that creativity happens. So, in the arts, there’s lots of self-expression. In the example I shared before with developing a new workflow, it’s not really about self-expression, it’s about solving a problem. And in other domains of creative work, it may be about something different, but throughout, no matter what is the psychological process by which something is done, the constant is this making of choices.

So, at any given point, you are facing a choice whether you will do something that is more commonplace, similar to something you have done before, or something that will be different, but still can work in some important ways, still effective for whatever you are after. And there are many choices along the way.

Like, I’m a scientist, there are choices of what research question you’re going to ask, how you’re going to ask it, what kinds of measures you are going to use in addressing it, in asking the question, how you will set up your studies. Will it be an experiment? Will you go into observing something that happens in the real world outside the laboratory? So, these are all choices that have consequences for what you end up doing.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And I’m curious then, since you and I have both had ideas we have not pursued, what are your pro tips for wise decision-making amongst our ideas in terms of what are the best practices or processes by which we discern whether to go ahead and go after something versus just let it lie?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Well, it is really hard to get going. It is hard to get going. There are lots of uncertainties in this process. There’s an uncertainty of what psychologists call intellectual risk, a risk whether you can make it happen, whether you have what it takes to develop your idea and to build it. And then there are social reputational risks, “What are other people going to say?”

And in the example that you have mentioned with you invented Airbnb, you actually went to somebody, and that somebody told you all the reasons why it couldn’t be. And so, these are the risks, social risks of embarking on something, and they can stop you in the tracks. Well, what do you do for that not to happen?

Well, maybe you could have talked to more people, and maybe different kinds of people that is not just somebody who is an executive in Hyatt and who has a self-interest in business as usual, but maybe some other kinds of perspectives.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I didn’t even think about that. Was he torpedo-ing our idea on purpose? I think he’s a pal. I think it came from the heart. But you’re right. Why not say, “Oh, that’s a great point, liability. Let’s also talk to some people in insurance to hear if that’s the kind of thing that there is insurable against and how that even works”? Because it’s not like a home or auto or life policy that I know about. It’s a whole other thing. And then I could get educated there.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yeah, exactly. And there are actually things like Airbnb in different parts of the world, existed in some shape or form before. So, you could learn from experiences there. I grew up in Croatia and there is a great tradition of renting rooms in houses, in private houses. Didn’t exist here in the US, but maybe you can learn from other perspectives and from other ways of doing it. So, that is one big barrier.

Another big barrier is we don’t feel confident. We don’t feel that we can picture 10 steps ahead, and this feeling of, “I don’t have the self-confidence for it,” can be in our way. But when we say that we are making this assumption, we are making an assumption that you have to be 100% confident to try anything out.

Well, if we take an analogy with fuel, confidence being fuel of getting you started and getting you going, well, you only need enough fuel to go for a few miles until that first little task along the way, and then you refuel. You refuel by realizing, “Well, I was able to do something. Therefore, chances are I can do another task along the way,” breaking one big thing into smaller chunks.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, little steps, one bit at a time, gathering input from other sources, seeing what’s next, not getting overwhelmed. I like that. I also want to hear your perspective on putting more of an emphasis on problem finding as opposed to problem solving. How do you think about that?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
If you want to say it in, like, one sentence, problem finding is a way to problem solving. When psychologists called this process that happens in creative work problem finding, they made our communication a little bit more difficult because it suggests that, “Okay, you find a problem and then you solve it kind of step by step.” They didn’t really mean that.

They mean problem finding is a process of exploration. You identify a big umbrella problem and then you are approaching with curiosity and experimentation what it could be under that big umbrella thing. And you are asking the question in different ways in the process. You are arranging it and rearranging it in different ways.

If you are designing a website, you try it one way and then you move different things around, so you can see it visually as moving pieces. Sometimes it’s physically moving pieces in different places. Like, in studies, we sometimes arrange it so that people can physically manipulate objects versus they cannot physically manipulate objects in the process of design. And if you cannot physically manipulate objects, well, you are going to be less successful in it in the end.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Could you give us some more examples of that in practice?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
So, to give you an example from a research study, one of my favorite research studies of all time, actually, it was a study of art students. And researchers invited them into the lab and said, “Your task is to make a drawing of a still life.” And they give them lots of different objects. There were more than 30 objects on a big table. They could choose whatever they wanted.

And the researchers observed what these art students were doing. And they found out that those who were judged to have produced the most original, most creative drawings in the end, did not just take a bunch of objects, arrange them, and then spend a lot of time and a lot of effort and a lot of detail into the minutiae of creating the drawing itself.

Rather, what they did is they played with the objects. They would physically lift them up, feel them, weigh them, compare them. If they had mechanical parts, play the mechanical parts. Think of why are they playing the mechanical parts? They’re never going to be seen on the 2D drawing, right? You’re not going to see what this toy is capable of doing or how it moves.

But if you did that anyway, it ended up being more creative in the end. You’re getting more feel of what the objects are, what their potential is, what it could suggest. And if you didn’t try just one possible arrangement of objects, but try different ones, sketched a little bit, came back and rearranged them, your end product is more creative.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that really resonates. And I’m thinking of how that can work even in a more abstract sense. Like, if I’m working on a thing, I’m thinking about a thing over time, and then I’m just exposed to more stimuli, like just things, environments, ideas, perspectives, it’s like they just collide.

And it’s really, really handy and beautiful in terms of, like, what can someone use to lean on when their ankle is sprained. It’s like, “Well, lots of things. It doesn’t have to be a cane per se. It could be a baseball bat. It could be a wood, for example. It can be a broom.”  And so, it’s interesting, and these ideas did not even occur to me until I actually had that problem in mind, and then bumped into those objects in the environment.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yeah, that’s a great example in everyday life. There are examples in the world of work. There was a study that analyzed 1.2 million companies in the United States, big database with lots of information about companies. And they wanted to see, out of those 1.2 million, what will happen to startups, depending on what point they scale up and whether they engage in this problem finding, this construction and reconstruction of what you’re actually doing.

And they found that those companies, those startups that scale after two years, as opposed to in the first six months or 12 months after being founded, are 20 to 40% more likely to survive. That is a huge difference. That is a huge effect. And the reason for that was that they engaged in lots of testing, testing of their ideas, seeing how it worked, going back to the drawing board, and not scaling until they figured it out a little bit more.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. I’d also love to hear a little bit about the emotional groove, if you will. Because sometimes I feel like I’m in a spot where ideas are just flying left and right, quick, quick. And other times, I am just bone dry, got nothing. What’s behind this? And is there a way we can kick ourselves into high creative gear?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yes, there is. What you are describing there is the fact that how we are feeling influences how we are thinking. And the good news is that we can use those connections to our advantage. So, what you noticed is that there are times when ideas are flowing and flowing and flowing, and you are feeling positive and you’re feeling energized. And when you are in these kinds of moods, you can very quickly come up with ideas.

But at other times, ideas are not coming. and everything seems stupid, right? Well, it turns out that those kinds of feelings are also useful. They’re just not useful for coming up with ideas. They are very useful for critical thinking. And if we take creative work as not just coming up with ideas, but also developing them, making them into best products we possibly can, then you see how this could be helpful.

So, you are feeling happy, energized and upbeat. You come up with lots of ideas. At a different time, you are feeling down, you are feeling gloomy, you are feeling maybe grumpy. You can very much evaluate, successfully evaluate those ideas, find all the problems potentially with them, and then problem solve around those problems. We need both.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Yes, so the grumpiness is just like, “Oh, I’m out of luck. There’s no value in this grumpiness,” but, oh, no, perfection. Critique away now. You’re in the groove for that.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Exactly. And you can use it to your advantage. So, for instance, I am not a morning person. People know to stay away from me in the morning. And so, I use that to my advantage. In the morning, I can really tear apart things that I have written before. I can find all the things that are not clear, all the things that are flat, that fall not quite just right. And I can mark them. I can solve problems around them. And that is something that you need in creative work too.

Pete Mockaitis
So, that’s a great perspective there, is match the work you’re doing to the mood you find yourself in. That’s really cool. And I’m also curious, is it possible to make the shift? I am in the grumpy mode, but what is needed from me in the moment is creative, generative mode. Do you have any tips or tricks to manage our own emotional states to find that groove?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yeah, the good news is that we have more agency in relation to our moods than we seem to, and then we oftentimes believe we do. And a very powerful tool there is how we think about the situation. We assume that situation, emotional reaction, one comes immediately after another, but there’s something that happens in between, actually.

And what happens in between is how we think about the situation. And if we think about the situation as a threat, it’s something that is one way or another dangerous to us or can put us at a risk, then we are going to have less control over it, and it will be experienced in a more negative and unpleasant way.

But if we shift how we look at the situation, and say, ‘Hey, right now, I’m about to give an important presentation, but I’m feeling nervous. If I’m really being truly honest, I am feeling anxious right now.” But if you say to yourself, “Hey, yes, you are feeling anxious. However, you are feeling anxious not because you are not prepared, not because you are not ready for this, but because you truly and deeply care about it. This is important to you,” you are going to do better.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. So, the interpretation, the meaning that the frame we’re putting on, it makes a world of difference. I suppose at times, it’s perhaps easier said than done to choose an empowering, useful, effective frame. Any pro tips in the heat of battle?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yeah, you’re right. Sometimes, we just cannot make that happen. And at those times, an emotion can already happen, we are already experiencing something unpleasant and something that seems to be getting in our way. Sometimes the only thing we can do with those instances is to choose how we react. So, what our physical reaction is going to be like. That can be influencing the activation in our body by taking a deep breath, by taking just one moment before we react.

I give a lot of talks, and sometimes you get unexpected questions. And when you get unexpected questions, you can start to feel your body getting jittery. So, you take a step back and take a breath. Taking a breath can make you seem thoughtful to the audience, but it’s also going to calm your physical reactions. And as your physical reactions calm, your emotional ones do too.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. I also want to hear your take on creativity and AI. What are the best ways to engage with it and the worst ways to engage with it as we do creative stuff?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Oh, the worst ways. The worst ways are the easiest.  The worst ways is you ask ChatGPT or whatever is your AI of choice, a question. You copy paste that answer and you are done.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
And you are laughing at it, but you are laughing at it because you wouldn’t do it like that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those who have, I’m thinking about attorneys and others have faced severe consequences of the negative variety.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Exactly. So, it is a chuckle for us here in the conversation because we wouldn’t do it, but people are doing it. So that’s clearly the worst-case scenario. What are better ways of using AI is a little bit of a sparring partner. I oftentimes use AI when I’m writing, and I don’t necessarily use anything it produces. It is more of asking a question, “How could this chunk of text be said in a different way, be expressed in a different way?”

And I have heard stories from writers who are using it in a similar way, never actually taking the output itself, but having it as inspiration, as a jumping point, as, “Oh, I didn’t think of it to put it that way.” And it could be in opposition to it, or in agreement with it as a different perspective.

So, engaging with AI as a tool, where it could be a conversation partner that has a perspective of having swallowed the internet, can be something to make you think, make you think in a different way, make you arrange what you’re doing in a different way.

You are the one asking the question. Always remember you are the one asking the question, which brings us back to what we talked about earlier of creativity and the importance of problem finding in creativity. You are always the one doing the problem finding when working with the AI agent. It can give you answers, but you are the one asking the questions, asking the questions in a different way, formulating it and reformulating it to find different angles.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think that often what AI will produce is the opposite of novel and innovative and kind of the most obvious standard issue, “This is what the internet says, response on a matter,” which can be helpful.

It’s like, “Oops, I overlooked that.” And also, it gives you, what I find is my experience is like a lot of great reminders, like, “Oh, of course, I should have thought of that. And because you mentioned that, this makes me think of this other thing.” So, a sparring partner is a great way to put it.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Yeah, “It makes me think of this other thing,” is really interesting. Sometimes we do that with other humans. It’s just, this AI is readily available at any time, and it has the knowledge of the whole internet so it can be useful in that way, even if it is to point to you the usual commonplace ways of looking at something. And the usual and commonplace is not creative, but usual and commonplace can be a starting point from which you make something creative.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, beautiful. Thank you. Well, Zorana, tell me, any other top things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
The one that I want to mention is, “How do we make creativity reliable? How do we ensure that we are not a one-hit wonder?” and in the context of your job, that you are sustainably and reliably and sometimes on demand, doing creative things.

Pete Mockaitis
Tell us.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Well, the secret is it’s not secret. The key is in the social nature of creativity. When we are creating, when we are doing something, even if the act itself is solitary, like writing a book, I was the only one writing it, but there are social influences on it. There are the voices of colleagues who you interacted with and from whom you have learned. There are those lessons from having read, in my case, journal articles and books that influenced your thinking that became part of what you write and what you do.

And then there are those social influences that create an infrastructure or an ecosystem of the job. And when that climate, that job climate is one that is favorable to creativity and innovation, then it can really flourish and not just once, but sustainably.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
It is by Frank Barron, a creativity researcher from the 1950s and ‘60s, and he said that creative individuals are occasionally crazier, yet adamantly saner than the average person.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
One study that I find very intriguing is a study where people have looked at the influence of instructions on creative thinking. So, there was a standard test of creative thinking, but one group of people was given the standard instruction, “Come up with as many ideas as you can.” And the other group, that same instruction plus three words, “Please be creative.” And those three words made a bunch of difference. When we ask people to be creative, they rise to the occasion.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
My favorite book on creativity, since we are at the topic, is a very old one. I like to uncover things that are sometimes forgotten. And it is from 1975 by Rollo May, and the title is “The Courage to Create.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Make it a habit to learn what works for you. So, to learn that, yes, all the advice out there says, “Write first thing in the morning,” but if it doesn’t work for you, don’t do it that way. Create your own way that works for you, depending on who you are as a person.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a particular nugget, a sound bite, a Zorana original that you’re really known for?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Creativity is social even when it doesn’t feel like it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Well, my website is Zorana Ivcevic Pringle with dashes in between, and that is the best way to find how to reach me, or all the information on what I’m doing and how to stay in touch.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do have a final challenge or call to action for someone looking to be awesome on their job?

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Look around you. If you have a point of frustration, it is telling you that something could be done differently, and that it is ripe for problem solving.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Zorana, thank you.

Zorana Ivcevic Pringle
Thank you.

May 12
0

1057: How to Improve Your Next Conversation with Jefferson Fisher

By | Podcasts | 2 Comments

Jefferson Fisher shares his three-part communication system for handling difficult conversations with ease.

You’ll Learn

  1. The best first word to use
  2. How to set boundaries people will respect
  3. Two tricks for handling disagreements

About Jefferson

Jefferson Fisher is a trial lawyer, writer, and speaker whose work to help people communicate during life’s everyday arguments and conversations, with his practical videos and authentic presence, has gained millions of followers around the world, including celebrities and global leaders. He is a sought-after speaker on communication at Fortune 500 companies and governmental agencies, and hundreds of thousands of people subscribe to his actionable email newsletter and podcast. 

Fisher is a Texas board-certified personal injury attorney and the founder of Fisher Firm, where he helps people all over the United States connect to trusted legal services. He lives with his wife and two children near Beaumont, Texas.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

Jefferson Fisher Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jefferson, welcome!

Jefferson Fisher
What’s going on, Pete? Great to meet you, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, you too. I’m excited to be chatting. And I want to kick it off with just a little softball opener question. Jefferson, tell me, what’s the most surprising and fascinating thing you’ve ever discovered about humans and communication in the course of your career?

Jefferson Fisher
Oh, just a nice little softball. Thank you. That was great. Like, how much we struggle at it and, at the same time, how much we need it. One of my comfort shows is a show called “Alone” on Netflix.

And have these survivalists that are all amazing, and they go out maybe in somewhere in the Alaska wilderness. And it’s a very slow-paced show, and they’re supposed to survive, really, for however long that they can or sometimes they put a deadline on it.

But a lot of the times, I’ve seen that the number one reason they tap out, in other words, they call and say, “Take me home,” is just because they miss people. They miss the sound of their loved one’s voice, or we’re just not meant to be alone. And that’s what I find so interesting. It’s not that they couldn’t keep up with the skill. It’s not that they couldn’t survive. It’s that they miss other humans.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we need it, it’s in us, it’s part of our very human design. So, when we’re not out in the remote Alaskan wilderness, are there ways that our communication needs are regularly being unmet?

Jefferson Fisher
Every day, our interactions are littered with miscommunication, where what we say does not match what was heard. And you can take that from the living room to the boardroom to wherever you are. And so, we find that the communication struggles are not uncommon, really, with anybody in any situation that we’re in.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, misheard intentions not translating into what’s received. Understood. You’ve got some wisdom for us in your book, “The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More.” Tell us, what’s sort of the big idea of this book?

Jefferson Fisher
The big idea of the book is that some people teach you how to play an instrument. I teach you what chords to play. I give you the sheet music in terms of communication. And so, I am telling you how to use phrases that are going to improve your next conversation, from how to say things with control, meaning, instead of controlling them, you’re going to learn to control yourself and regulate yourself to where you stay calm and composed.

Two, we’re going to say it with confidence, meaning you’re going to use your assertive voice. You’re going to say things that don’t sound like you’re hesitant, or you’re unwavering, and you’re going to say things that are direct, but at the same time kind and respectful. And three, we’re going to say it to connect, meaning you’re going to have that difficult conversation go much better than it ever would if you had not read the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so that sounds handy. Could you share with us an inspiring story of someone who started doing some of this stuff, a little bit of the before and what they did, and what happened afterwards?

Jefferson Fisher
We have tons of examples. Really, in our membership is a wonderful example of that. So, have an online membership where people are able to practice a lot of the tools that we teach. One of the persons who comes to mind, her name is Michelle. Michelle’s a single mother of two kids, and she was going through a really bad divorce.

And when she picked up the book, this is really what she was looking for, and they’re kind of on the tail end of all their legal proceedings. And she was really trying to find ways to not only speak to her new ex-husband, but also how to speak to her children about it. And the biggest takeaway that she said was that she really took control of her emotions by regulating her breath.

So, rule number one in the book is let your breath be the first word that you say. And so, by really leaning into that principle to regulate yourself and not get so wrapped up into the emotion, she says she’s been a much better communicator with her entire family. She’s feeling like it’s a much better impact in a positive way for her.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Jefferson, that’s very Tweetable, “Let your breath be the first word that you say.” And so, zooming way in, practically speaking, that means, in most conversations, I will, literally, before uttering a word, have a breath?

Jefferson Fisher
No, I wouldn’t take it that extreme. So, mostly in your difficult conversations, your heated conversations, they’re going to have some friction in it. When somebody is saying something to you, we get into the habit of getting wrapped up and having to have an immediate response.

Somebody sends you a text you don’t like, somebody says something to you and you kind of get caught off guard and your whole body wants to fight or flight. You either want to say a hurtful word to eliminate the threat or you want to run from it. You want to hang up the phone. You want to slam the door.

And so, what I encourage people to do is to simply take a breath before you say anything. And often that is exactly, it’s all that you need to make sure that you keep your emotions in check, and your logical and analytical side of your brain at the forefront, so not every conversation, no. But you take it, for example, like in the business context.

If you’re getting interviewed, the person who, if you’re asking me a question and I take a breath and I’m thinking about it, and then I respond, it sends a different message that I really listened, I acknowledged, I thought about it. I’m not being flippant about it. So, what I’m about to say is going to mean more.

Pete Mockaitis
And it also, just on the receiving end of that, just comes across better than, if we were to replace the breath with, “Oh, well, you know, I would say…” that whole phrase, that it also is more powerful and polished and makes you seem more knowledgeable and authoritative.

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, even if you were to say, “Hey, Jefferson, how are you? How was your day?” and I immediately said, “Oh, it was good. I mean, yeah, it was fine. It was good,” versus you asking me and I just took a breath, “You know, Pete, it was good. It was a good day.” Like, you can tell which one you’re going to believe more, the one who sounds a little bit more intentional, the one who sounds a little bit more in control.

And so, that’s what the pause, the breath does, is it gives you time to choose. Time to choose whether or not you want to say that, whether or not this person is worth your time, whether or not this person is worth your response, and to be able to make sure that what you’re going to say is intentional.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s just, that question right there, “How are you doing? How’s your day?” is often among the very first of questions when meeting somebody or starting a conversation. It’s real nice to kick it off with a tone of trust and believability, like, “Right from the get go, I think Jefferson is being honest with me about his day,” as opposed to the flippant automatic robot response, “Fine.”

Jefferson Fisher
Exactly, yeah. And it helps release the tension in your body. When somebody is saying something that catches you off guard in particular or something that might be a little bit more offensive, our body tenses up and we tend to hold our breath because we’re readying to either say something hurtful or leave.

And when you use your breath, it’s telling your body, “What’s happening to me is not threatening. This person is not a threat. Their words are not a threat.” And so, that’s what the whole part of saying it with control is about. It’s not looking for what’s going to control them. You’re, first, looking at the conversation of what’s going to control you, and your breath is what’s going to help regulate and calm your body down.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, in your section on “Say It with Control,” we’ve got a chapter, control yourself, control the moment, control the pace. Can you speak a bit more on controlling the moment and controlling the pace?

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, both of those kind of hint at the same concept. And that is the person who’s able to slow down their words is the person who’s always going to be more in control. People who speak very fast, it’s like listening to music that’s very fast. You kind of get, in some sense, it is very low-grade anxiety trying to make sure you can really listen to this person. You don’t want to miss anything and it rushes you.

Sometimes you’re around somebody and just their mere presence makes you anxious because they need to go, “We got this. I got this.” And they just can’t slow down. You compare that with somebody who is, let’s say, your grandfather or your grandmother.

And you go to their house and I’d say, mine is I have a papal. I’d say, “Papal, do you have a screwdriver?” And he’d go, “Yeah.” I mean, like just that right there. There’s something about the calm energy that we’re drawn towards like a moth to a flame, that we really, really want that secure presence.

And so, when you can be around the people who have calm energy and, in fact, if you can be the person who radiates that calm energy, controlling the moment means, instead of just spurting out words or putting your foot in your mouth, you’re taking time, you’re thinking, and you’re slowing it down. There’s a difference, Pete, between me saying, “I already told you. I’m not going to say that,” versus, “I already told you. I’m not going to say that.”

Now it’s the same exact words. All I did was I lowered my tone and I slowed down my words. Now which one of those sounds like someone who’s more grounded, more centered, more in control of themselves to say, “No, I’m not being moved by what you say. Your raised voice, your yelling, that doesn’t threaten me”?

So, you use just simply what’s already in your body to help control yourself, and you do that by controlling the pace and the moment by slowing it down.

Pete Mockaitis
That really rings true. And I’m curious, I suppose as you’re saying this, this strikes me as a great way to be most of the time. Occasionally, are we better off picking up the pace if our other party would prefer quicker responses? Or is it still more often the winning move to keep it slow?

Jefferson Fisher
I think, on average, people speak much faster than we need to. You think you’re talking slow, you’re really not. Most of the time we’re still rushing our words. We live in a very fast-paced life here in the United States of America. We rush everything. We can’t even watch a TikTok or a video for more than two seconds. And that’s maximum time.

So, I find that, yes, there are times when not rushing your words, but picking up the pace is not a bad thing. There’s such thing in music of just having dynamics, meaning your highs are going to be high and your lows are going to be low. So, if I were going to talk to you, and maybe I’m trying to be persuasive, maybe I’m trying to make my point and maybe you don’t believe it and I believe it and sometimes nobody believes it.

You hear that kind of dynamic in my voice that sometimes I’m going to rush little bit on the points that I’m really wanting to draw attention to, and I’m going to slow down on the parts I really want people to listen to every detail, because when you slow it down people will listen to a pin drop. So, that’s the power of just using that pause to hang on to every word. It makes a big difference.

Pete Mockaitis
It does. Folks tend to lean in and wonder, “Well, what’s coming next?” It works on me.

Jefferson Fisher
It works on everybody. I mean, we love stories. Humans love stories. We love to hear what’s going to happen around the corner. That curiosity is always in us.

Pete Mockaitis
So, rule one, say it with control. We talked about that. Before we move on, I’d love to hear, in addition to breath, are there any winning moves for regaining control of ourselves?

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, it’s funny you used the word winning. So then in the book, probably the most quotable line that I have is “Never win an argument.” And it is very counterculture, I suppose, in a world where all we want to do is win, particularly arguments. You see it in so many books and blogs.

And what I teach is that when you set out to win an argument, you often will lose the relationship. Meaning, all you’ve won is really their contempt. You’ve won to be the first to apologize when you set out to try and win an argument, because you’ll say things that you don’t mean, and they’ll trust you less, they’ll respect you less, and, really, you’ve lost that connection.

And so, I teach that, instead of seeing arguments as something to win, see them as something to unravel, where there’s knots in the conversation, knots in the communication. And when you can have the discipline to try and see where the other person is coming from, but not in just the metaphorical sense, but meaning you’re actually asking, “Help me understand. Help me see the knot. What am I missing?”

Things that you, instead of just tugging and pulling to say, “No, you have to see it my way. No, you have to get my point,” and you just ask the question of what they see from their end instead of, “That’s not what I said,” you’re asking the question, “What did you hear?” You’re always going to find a much better conversation at the end of that.

Pete Mockaitis
And the visual of knots is, I think, very useful, because when we encounter knots in life, like literally in a rope, in a shoelace, etc., our reaction is not – N-O-T – so much to slice through it with a sword or a knife, but rather it’s like, “Okay, we’re going to have to take a closer look at this, maybe literally have a breath and see. Okay, how did this knot come to be? What’s stuck in what? And what needs to be backed up a little bit in order to get this smoothed out here?”

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, it’s a mindset. A mindset that says, instead of “How dare they talk to me like this? How dare they, I mean, challenge me. They don’t believe me?” instead of having this, “I need to remind them who they’re talking to” kind of aggressive mentality, a much more winning mindset is asking yourself, “Huh, I wonder where this is coming from? I wonder what’s driving them to say that? I wonder what’s happening in their day? I wonder what they’re dealing with?

You start to look at it from the flip side and that often leads to a much better conversation at the end of the day. The knot is something that the harder you pull on it, the harder it is to loosen, the harder it is to undo. And you know people and I know people that have pulled on the knot for so long that they can’t undo it. Not for a long time.

We have people that haven’t spoken to their adult children in years, or they’ve lost that best friend because of one issue, then they never want to bring it up because they know that the knot is just too tight. It would be too painful. It’s like getting a backlash when you’re fishing. I mean, sometimes you just have to cut the whole thing out. It can become a very, very draining process if you don’t address it early.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess, to that point, I would love your perspective on, if we think that a knot is just too big, how often is that an accurate assessment versus just us rationalizing an internal fear situation?

Jefferson Fisher
Problems happen when you think one conversation is going to be the cure-all for everything. Like, one conversation is going to, all of sudden go, “You know what, you’re so right. I was so wrong all these years.” I mean, that never is going to happen. So, let’s say, you and I have had bad beef over time, and we have a knot.

Pete Mockaitis
“Yeah, you pulled some stuff, Jefferson.”

Jefferson Fisher
“Right. Of course I did.” And we have a conversation. You see how it would be much harder if I say, “Okay, let’s get one thing straight, Pete. You’re the one…” and, all of a sudden, you’re back to ground zero as soon as you utter that kind of stuff.

Instead, if you have the mentality of, “I’d like to talk with you, and this is a conversation that can last as many days and many months as it needs to about healing our relationship because I want a friendship with you again, Pete.” You hear how that is saying, “Look, I don’t know the rules. I don’t know how this is going to go, but I’m willing to tell you what my goal is.”

“And my goal is for us to have a new friendship. And what I’m saying is this is not a conversation that’s finished in a day. This is not a conversation that’s happening tomorrow.” So, if I’m telling you my conversation is over several days or weeks or a month or whatever, it’s very helpful to the other person to almost have a release of, “Okay, we can actually work through these things,” and not squish it all within this timeframe.

It happens very well, too, in the business context, that if you need to tell someone, “All right, I need to have a conversation with you over the next few days. And this is a conversation that’s going to last about a week,” you hear how all of a sudden there’s not pressure to solve it right then and there. You’re letting it organically involve in the way that it needs to happen, that people pulling out each little thread at a time.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really good. And I think it’s telling. I’m thinking about it, if I read news articles about diplomatic relations between countries, it’s interesting because sometimes your secretary of state or the equivalents of other nations will say that they had very productive conversations. You’re like, “Well, what does that mean? Is the war over?” Well, no, it’s not. And yet they viewed it as very productive conversations.

And it’s just a little reminder, whenever you read such news articles, that some issues very, very much require numerous conversations, bit by bit, thread by thread to be smoothed out.

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, it’s part of acknowledging to the other person that the issue they raised is a true issue. It is real issue. It helps to not keep people getting defensive. When you can tell them, “I agree,” and not in the sense that you agree with them. What you’re saying is you can’t think micro, you have to go macro. It’s this idea of, “I agree that’s worth talking about. I agree that’s an issue. I agree this is a topic that we should discuss.”

Simple as that, all of a sudden, their defenses are going to be lowered. Or you tell them that you’ve learned something or what’s been helpful, “That’s helpful for me to know. Thank you.” Or, “You know what, after listening, I can tell this is a really important issue to you.” All of a sudden, their defenses just go down, and now you can actually start addressing the knot that’s right in front of you.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. Thank you. Well, let’s talk a little bit about saying it with confidence. Tell us a bit about establishing boundaries.

Jefferson Fisher
Boundaries are something that a lot of people struggle with, and for good reason. They’re hard to raise around people that, I’d say, take advantage of you not having the boundary. Like, the person who always gets to cut in line in front of everybody and, all of a sudden, they realize they’re not able to do that. That’s the person who’s most upset because they’ve taken advantage of you not having that boundary for so long.

I teach that just, because someone doesn’t agree with your boundary, doesn’t make it wrong. It means that it’s working. And we find in our culture today boundaries are a whole big thing. Everybody seems to be talking about boundaries and they’re not hard to say. They’re much harder to enforce. You could say a lot of platitudes or things of, “No is a complete sentence. You don’t need to justify yourself.”

Boundaries are really, to me, three simple components. That is, one, you’re telling them what the boundary is and it’s beginning with the I, “I am not going to be treated that way.” Two, you’re adding in the condition, “If you continue to treat me this way, if you continue to speak to me this way…”

Three is the consequence, and that’s the biggest part because you have to be able to actually own it and be willing to do what you say you’re going to do. So, the consequence could be, “If you continue to talk to me this way, then this is the end of the conversation.” That’s probably the most common one that I use in communication.

Let’s say I have an opposing counsel that’s just gone off the rails talking about their case. I might say, “Look, I’m not going to be spoken to like that. If you continue to speak to me like that, this is going to be end of the conversation.” I have a really quick way of being able to redirect their energy because you have two sides of the coin.

It’s either I can give you a remote control, Pete, and you can press my buttons, and for me to say, “You can’t talk to me like that. Don’t yell at me,” and you’re just pressing my buttons and you’re have complete control over my emotions. Or, what I teach in my membership is how to have your manual.

So, in other words, if somebody speaks to you in a way that they should not, or that you don’t like, it’s this mindset of, “Hey, if you turn to page 82, you’ll see on paragraph D, line A, yeah, I don’t respond to that volume. So, it’s this set of parameters, say, “If you want to communicate with me, this is how we’re going to do it. And if you don’t like it, then it’s the breaks. That’s how we’re going to have a conversation or not.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, I’m curious, Jefferson, we’ve covered some good pieces here, any top tips, do’s or don’ts you really want to make sure that come across?

Jefferson Fisher
Probably one of the most common ones I get, particularly with somebody like in your audience in the workplace, is how to effectively disagree, how to disagree with someone you don’t want to sound disagreeable. So, instead of saying, “I disagree. No, I don’t like that,” which they’re going to take that personally.

They’re going to start defending their position against yours. So, meaning, as soon as you say, “No, I don’t like that,” or, “I disagree,” what I think is whatever you’re about to come out, they’re not going to accept it. Why? Because you just shut down theirs and it just becomes a battle of ideas.

Instead, what I want you to say is, “I see things differently. I see things differently.” And because it works, and not getting them defensive because you’re not arguing their point. You’re talking about their perspective. So, when I say, “I see things differently,” the key phrase is I see, “I see things differently,” or, “I view it differently,” or, “I take another approach,” or, “I tend to lean the opposite.”

I’m not saying anything they’re saying is wrong. I’m just saying, “I see it from a different side. That’s all.” And people don’t get defensive over that. Another tip that I like to give, particularly in the workplace, is if you find that your ideas are getting shut down in the board meeting, in front of other people, instead of getting frustrated that they didn’t accept your idea, because, really, all it is, is just an idea contest of people aren’t going to like your idea. Why? Because it’s not theirs.

Use percentages to your advantage. So, I would encourage you to say, “All right, I have about 20% of an idea here. I need your help with the other 80%.” And now, all of a sudden, they don’t see it as a competition. They don’t see you as a threat. They see it now as a collaboration to help get you to the 100%. Now they want to join in on it. Now they want to help. So, percentages is a quick little trick to help get conversation moving in the right direction.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. In your book, you’ve got a section called “The 47-Second Version.” Can you lay it on us?

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, rule number one, any time that you begin to try to control the other person in the conversation, you’ve lost. Instead of focusing on them, look for what’s going to control you. And you do that by regulating your emotions. The key to that is your breath. Let your breath be the first word that you say.

Two, the rule is how to say things with confidence, meaning you’re going to use your assertive voice. If you want to be more confident, then you have to sound more assertive. Confidence is as assertive does. So, you’re going to say things that’s not littered with adverbs, like literally, obviously, basically. You’re going to not over apologize or undercut your words. You’re going to sound more assertive and, therefore, feel more confident.

Three, when it comes to saying things to connect, it’s all about making sure that, when you have that difficult conversation, you’re upfront instead of going, “Hey, so how are you and your kids? You good? Okay. Hey, listen…” Instead of that typical horrible beginning to difficult conversation, just tell it to them.

It’s going to sound like, “This is going to be hard to hear,” or, “This is going to be tough for us to talk about,” or simply, “This is going to be a hard conversation.” Anytime you can lead with the honesty and directness, it’s going to always end in a much better outcome.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jefferson Fisher
My grandfather has this line that he laid on me when I was a teenager. I was telling him about something I had done, and I was kind of frustrated about it and I didn’t feel good about it. And as soon as I told him, he looked at me, and he said, “Well, son, you can’t look back and hoe a straight row.” That was his line.

Meaning, anybody who gardens, if you’re hoeing the ground, if you look back, it’s going to be zigzag. You can’t be able to do a straight line. You always have to look forward. And that’s been a philosophy that stuck with me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jefferson Fisher
One of my very good friends is Vanessa Van Edwards. She also does a lot of communication. She does like body cues and stuff. And her, I forget the exact number on it, but how quickly we can make our opinions about someone in a first impression.

And so, that to me is just you treasure the time that you first meet someone because you never get that chance again. After you met them, you’ve already met them. And so, I just love the idea of you have a chance to really cultivate something cool with the first person that you meet for the first time.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Jefferson Fisher
Right now, well, it has been for a long time, “Team of Rivals.” It’s a book on Abraham Lincoln. And Doris Goodwin, she’s just fantastic.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m an Illinois boy, so we love our Lincoln. And a favorite tool?

Jefferson Fisher
I have this thing called Tonal. I’m not sponsored by them in any way, but it’s a workout machine.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, a workout thing.

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, it’s a workout machine. It’s fantastic. Fantastic. I use it every day, and I’m in better shape than I was when I played in college, so it’s awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I was about to ask about a favorite habit. Is it using the Tonal or something else?

Jefferson Fisher
Yeah, I do really like Tonal. My favorite hobby is finding new music. I love finding new music. In a different life, I would have loved to have been the person who goes to, like, little dive bar concerts and finds this, you know, new talent. I love new music. I love music festivals. I play several instruments. So, I love that world. So, I’m always looking for new artists on Spotify.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that gets quoted back to you often and retweeted and Kindle book highlighted?

Jefferson Fisher
It’d probably be that “Never win an argument” line. Here’s one that I would leave with for anybody who finds themselves to be a people pleaser, and it would be this. It’s okay to be a people pleaser as long as you’re one of them. That’s what I like.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’m going to chew you on that already. So, you can please other people, but you got to make sure you are also one of the people being pleased, as opposed to a sacrificial martyr who becomes bitter.

Jefferson Fisher
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It’s okay to be a people pleaser. Just make sure you’re one of them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks would like to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jefferson Fisher
So, they can go anywhere on social media. My Instagram is my favorite on Jefferson Fisher. You can find my accounts there at JeffersonFisher.com. You can get “The Next Conversation” wherever you like to get books – Amazon, they’re in stores now, airports. It’s been a whole lot of fun, so, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for someone looking to be awesome at their job?

Jefferson Fisher
Believe in the power of your next conversation. It doesn’t matter if you and another person haven’t always hit it off. You can change everything with simply what you decide to say next. It really does make a difference.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jefferson, thank you.

Jefferson Fisher
Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.