1085: How to Find More Fun at Work Every Day with Bree Groff

Pete Mockaitis
Bree, welcome!

Bree Groff
Thanks for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your book, Today Was Fun: A Book About Work. Could you share with us any particularly surprising or extra counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about work and fun while putting this all together?

Bree Groff
I mean, the first, maybe most obvious is when I say work and fun, people are like, “So happy hour?” Like, a lot of times it, like, does not compute, “Wait, work cannot actually be fun. You must be talking about off sites, happy hours.” Or they think, “Oh, you’re going to tell me that fun is a driver of productivity and business performance in the bottom line.” That is true, but also not my point.

My point is that we should be valuing our days at work more highly, simply because they come from our finite bank of days that we get on this planet. And it is not only possible to have fun within the work itself, like when I’m actually creating or making something of value, but to do that is, actually, honors our brief time here, honors our lives in a way that I think we don’t often.

We often wish our way through the week, “Ugh, when can it be Friday?” So, I’m trying to correct that, swing the pendulum back a little bit, such that employee engagement and our own days at the office are seen as valuable just for themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. And so, you say it should be fun and we’re trying to correct. Can you give us a sense of what percentage of folks experience regular fun during the course of work versus find this to be a foreign concept when you speak with them or you’ve done the research, like, “Oh, you mean the ping pong table or the happy hour?” Like, “No, I don’t mean those things.”

Bree Groff
Yeah. I mean, the data is staggering on things like burnout, overworking. I’ll try and cite it correctly, but I believe it was 89% of employees have felt a sense of dread within the last month at work, 49% have felt a sense of dread within the last week. And like dread, that is such a big word. It’s not like, “Oh, I’m not having the most fun of my life.” It’s, “I’m actually dreading something.”

So, there’s a lot of headroom for us to go from what’s currently the state of affairs at work, which is something often work is something that we show up to that we get through. We almost show up assuming it’s not going to be fun and that’s not the point of work. So why even try to make it so? But I think it is. I think if we are going to be spending, they say one third of our lives or five sevenths of every week at the office or at the virtual office, well, that’s worthy of us figuring out how to have a better time doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d love it you could drop even more stats on us, I’m shameless here, because I guess I imagine that both things are true for me in the sense that, “Yeah, you know, I have fun at work and also there are elements that I dread.” And I think that is probably the case for nearly even the most dreamy of dream job havers in their lives. So, I guess I really want to know, like, how many folks experience, you know, near zero fun in the course of doing their work? Do we know that?

Bree Groff
Who experiences near zero fun? I mean, I imagine it’s kind of sizable. Anybody who’s looking for a new job is not maybe near zero, but is sort of approaching that asymptote of there’s very little to get from here anymore. I will say, though, like I’m not of the opinion that every day and all work needs to be fun. That’s just unrealistic, and it holds us to such a high standard.

Chapter one of the book is titled “Most Work, Most Days Should Be Fun.” And if we get most, I think, yeah, you’re killing it. Right? You’re doing a really good job.

Pete Mockaitis
And do we have a sense, very roughly, and maybe even just your gut sense of chatting with folks, if there’s not a perfect survey tool that’s assessed this, like, how many folks find themselves in that boat?

Bree Groff
Of most days most work is fun? My gut sense, and then I’ll try and whip you up some research, my gut sense would be 50% most work, most days is fun. Again, that’s off the cuff.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think, Bree, folks will likely push back on you, in terms of, “Well, you don’t know about my job. This is as dull as it gets.” So, could you perhaps share with us a story of someone who was not having so much fun at work and then made some adjustments and, behold, the very same job they were in became more fun?

Bree Groff
Yeah, I’ll give you a sitcom, “The Office,” right? Like, you’ve seen it, they’re selling paper during the advent of the internet. Like, the business is crashing. It’s probably the dullest possible job you can imagine. I love how the show was framed because it’s not at all saying that work is fun because it’s meaningful or purposeful. It’s to show that work can still be fun even when you have no purpose, no meaning, when your job is to sell reams of paper.

And the reason it was fun, the reason why people love watching it is because the humans in the office, the entry level employees, they made it so. They made their own fun. So, when I think about, like, “How can we as individuals make our days more fun?” there’s so many things that we can do at the local level.

So, for example, when I’m leading consulting teams, it’s me and, on average, maybe seven, eight people on a team for a client, we are our own little ecosystem. So, whoever out there is listening, is, “Oh, my job is terrible,” the question is, “Do you have a few people around you in your local team, or even like one work bestie, where you can make your own fun despite the elements of what’s happening out there?”

So, this could look like anything from, “Hey, we’re going to wear our animal print socks on Fridays.” It’s such a stupid example, but it’s a stupid example because, one, nobody at work probably cares about what socks you’re wearing. And, two, it’s a little bit of an act of mischief and subversion in a way. Like, how can you make your own fun there?

Or, let’s say you have to do expense reports or fill out some sort of soul-sucking spreadsheet. Well, you could do that under your fluorescent lighting hunched over your desk. Or, if you work in an office building where you can take a walk and sit on a bench outside. If you’re working from home, and you can go to a coffee shop and do it there.

There are always ways to get the same work done, but dressed in a little bit more fun. So, at best, we think of work like steak, like it’s juicy, it’s delicious. The work itself is interesting and captivating. But if it’s just not, if your work is broccoli, then your job is to get some cheese and smother it on. And, in the very least, find some camaraderie with the other people who are also suffering alongside you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, I think “The Office” is a fine example because you can see all sorts of good times had in the midst of very boring circumstances. So, could you share some stories of real people who maybe did not have the luxury of a Jim Halpert with all those hilarious pranks and fun-making activities in the mix and how they found some creative ways to upgrade their experience of fun at work?

Bree Groff
So, there was one client that I was working with. The remit was employee experience and sort of like the process of this function. There were about 150 people in the function, and one person in particular, as we’re doing these interviews, was telling me like she was out, she was not having any fun. She was ready to leave.

We proposed many structural changes, process changes, sort of to try and like lighten up the workload and do all these things. But the one thing that made more difference than, and then anything else, for this one woman in particular, we started introducing the concept of a check-in, which is, at the top of a team meeting, you could do it at a standup or, you know, once a week, you simply start the meeting by saying, “How is everybody on a scale of one to five? Put it on your fingers. Three, two, one, everyone puts up their fingers, it’s a four, it’s a two, it’s a one.”

And then you go around the room in 30 seconds, everyone says how they are at work or in life. So, it could sound like, “Oh, I’m a four. We got a new puppy, which is amazing, but the puppy kept me up all night, so I’m kind of tired.” “I’m a two. I’m actually super nervous about this meeting we have later this week. I don’t know if we’re ready for it, so excited to talk about that in the meeting today.” Or, “I’m a five. It’s my birthday tomorrow.” And then everyone says, “Happy birthday.”

It’s a very simple practice. It takes maybe less than five minutes to do within a team. And once we started introducing this practice, so now I’d say most days she was doing this with her team, she was able to share, one, she was a new mom, so she was able to share, like, “Oh, God, this is really hard. I didn’t sleep much last night. And I’m really excited about this event that we’re putting on tomorrow.”

She was able to open her humanity to her team. So, she felt seen in a way that she wasn’t seen before. Nothing actually really changed about the work in that period of time. We were still working on more structural changes, but just the simple fact that she could go into work and she knew that somebody was going to say, “How are you?” and listen, like that was enough.

And so, we will often do, like, a pre-post survey of belonging and engagement and all those things, and the numbers were incredible, just like even when we pulsed on that one intervention. And then, just anecdotally, like her ability to say, like, “Oh, my God, I finally feel like I can be part of this team and not hide my exhaustion.”

Because there’s so much about work that tells us we need to be buttoned up and professional and sort of have like one sort of presentable persona to the business. But just being able to say, “How are you?” and then have someone say that to her made all the difference. So often, when I’m working with clients, it’s the first thing, the first thing I’ll do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s cool. Thank you. Yes. I remember when I was working at the Bridgespan Group, we did that practice of check-in, And it was so interesting because, you know, part of me was annoyed at first in terms of like, “Come on. Come on. We’ve a lot to cover, you know. I’m excited to get into it. And really like we’ve got, you know, 50 minutes scheduled for this meeting. How many minutes are we going to do with check-in?”

And it really fluctuated. Like, sometimes it was maybe a good third of the meeting was the check-in. I guess we didn’t have clear rules, but what was interesting is, in a way, that fluidity was kind of helpful. It’s like, “Oh, actually, that’s what was most needed. Go figure. It was not so much what was on the agenda proper, but spending some more time on this stuff.”

And what’s funny to this day, I mean, mercy, this was 16 years ago, but, like, I feel more, like, I don’t know, warmth, affection, interest, friendliness, and remembering of these people than I do like most other team settings. And it was interesting because there wasn’t that much to it. So, I came around to be a fan of the check-in, and it’s interesting.

And people can sort of choose just how vulnerable they are, how much they want to disclose with regard to their check-in. And I don’t think we ever were like derailed, even if it’s like hardcore, you know. I don’t remember what the most dramatic example was, but if someone were to say, “Oh, I’m distraught because my son has a…we thought he kicked his drug problem, but now he’s using cocaine again, and we’re really worried about his safety.”

Like, I’m just trying to imagine like what’s among the most intense things you might say in a check-in. So, one, folks tended not to share that, unless they felt comfortable enough in the team dynamic over time. And, two, when they did share bigger things, it didn’t tend to derail, you know, or take a long, long time. Folks just say, “Oh, that’s so hard. I’m so sorry. Please, let me know if I can support you.”

And it’s a little awkward to transition to the next person, “And I got a puppy.” But, you know, we get over it. In a way, it’s nice because, you know, these things are in the room, even if we’re not saying them, and just not acknowledging them does not make them disappear. Like, we are carrying the emotional whatever of that stuff into it.

And, in a way, it’s actually super helpful because it, like, demystifies stuff. Like, in ambiguous circumstances, I think we humans have a knack for just inventing stories as to what’s going on. Like, “Oh, she thinks my ideas are really dumb.” Like, “No, she’s super stressed about these life circumstances. That explains the low energy, the low mood, the short tip, any number of things.”

And it’s like, “Oh, well, I feel bad for them, but it’s a relief for me.” It’s like, “Oh, that’s just sort of what’s going on there.” And then it opens up opportunities for people to follow up, it’s like, “Oh, you know, hey, we got a new puppy last year, and we found this amazing YouTube channel, which was game-changing in terms of training or whatever.” And then, like, all these new opportunities for connection appear. So, I’m going on and on, Bree.

Bree Groff
I love it, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
But just to say, yeah, I think check-ins, at first, I was skeptical, but I became a believer that they do a lot of good, and you’ve got hard numbers on the back end there.

Bree Groff
Yeah, so, totally. And they do feel awkward at first. I won’t lie. Even after doing them for years, I’ll sometimes be like, “Oh, team, wait, can we do a check-in before we jump in?” And I have like a little spike of like, “Oh, is it okay?” And it’s always worth it. Because I remind teams that the goal is not to have an efficient team. The goal is to have an effective team. And in order to trust people, you have to know them. In order to like people, you have to know them.

So, yeah, the research behind this is also really good, in addition to like our own experiences of like, “That felt nice.” But it promotes psychological safety, because if you risk saying something, even 2% vulnerable at the start of a meeting and you’re met with support, now you’re more likely to share whatever you need to share, you know, your business idea, whatever it is, later in the meeting.

It’s great for cognitive offloading. So, there’s research that says if you write or say whatever is running through the back of your mind, you can then focus better on the next task at hand. It’s sort of like shutting down all the tabs on your computer. So, instead of just ruminating on like, “Oh, how’s the puppy? How’s the puppy? So, I got a new puppy. I hope they’re not destroying the apartment right now. Great. I’ve said it.”

Priming contributions. So, once you’ve spoken once in a meeting, now it’s more comfortable to speak again, as opposed to, we’ve all been in those meetings where one person doesn’t speak the whole time, or maybe that’s you, and you’re like, “Oh, God, am I going to jump in now? Is this the one thing I’m going to say the whole meeting?”

And then thwarting any sort of miscommunications, as you said. So, if one person’s camera is off, and you’re like, “What a jerk!” but they’re like, “Oh, I’m a two. I threw my back out. So, I’m going to be camera off this meeting,” now there’s empathy where there used to be resentment. So, so many good reasons to do the check-in, to fight through that initial like awkwardness, and, “Oh, is this going to take a few minutes?”

Because every team that I’ve done this with, which I’ve been doing this now for over a decade, like I know things about their lives and who they are that made me feel, just as you said, like warm and affectionate to them. I’ve had teams, even as they disbanded, continue to check in years later simply because we, like, essentially bore witness to each other’s lives in that time, to the degree the person wanted to share. So big fan is the bottom line.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s awesome. So, there’s one intervention, simple, powerful. I guess maybe one quick little footnote is like you mentioned the affirming, and maybe it goes without saying, but just to be explicit.

Bree Groff
“Don’t be a jerk.”

Pete Mockaitis 
During the course of a check-in, yeah, you would be affirming as opposed to, “A puppy. Why would you do that to yourself? You’ve already got three young kids. Are you insane?” Like, “Okay, that’s not how to respond to a check-in. Rather, you would…well, you tell me, someone shares a thing and then someone else is about to go, how does that transition or handoff work in practice?

Bree Groff
Yeah, if someone shares a thing, the rule is don’t be a jerk. Although, if you really like each other and know each other, and you know the person would laugh being like, “What the hell were you thinking? You got three kids,” you know, that’s cute. But, in practice, the way that it would functionally work, so I would usually start it off, or like a project manager could start it off, I’ll say, “How’s everybody?” Three, two, one. We put our fingers up in the air.

I’ll nominate someone to start. So, I’ll say, “All right, Pete, kick us off.” You would do your 30 seconds and then you would pass it to someone else. Like, “Okay, Bree, you go,” and then you just go around the room. It just avoids the whole, like, “Who wants to go next?”

And also, if you start at the top of the meeting, you end up getting into the meeting stuff around the same time as if you had just like chit chatted and done the whole, like, “Let’s wait for a few more people to join,” which is my corporate pet peeve.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And so then, when someone shares, we mentioned acknowledgement or affirmation previously, they just stop and the next person goes, there’s no like, I don’t know, commenting or responding?

Bree Groff
Oh, yeah. I mean, maybe a little. So, like, “Oh, you got a new puppy. Like, oh, it’s so cute. Love it.” Something like that. If you’re on Zoom or remote, a lot of times people will just put things in chat to respond so that there’s a little bit of reciprocation, but, yeah, I mean, just no terrible back and forth, like, “Oh, I really threw out my back.” Someone would be like, “Oh, I’ll DM you my chiropractor later.” Something like that.

But I’ve had leaders ask me, like, “Well, what do I do with this information? Do I need to follow up if someone’s not doing?” I’m like, “No. The beauty of the practice is, like, this is literally saying, ‘How are you?’ and listening. Like, it’s so fundamentally human. So that’s all you have to do.” But, yeah, like a few, like, “Mm-hmm” kind of thing, that’s good.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, lovely. All right. So, the check-in right there is simple, powerful, fun-building. What is another one or two of your top practices you recommend?

Bree Groff
Sure. Another one that falls in that camp is the user manual, which is a document you would keep for your team or maybe your direct reports or a couple of people around you. That’s just a series of questions about who you are and how you work.

So, functionally, each person would have their own page, and the questions would read something like, “Who are the humans and animals who are important to you? How can you be misunderstood? How can someone help if you’re stressed or stuck? What’s important to you on a team? What other responsibilities or joys do you have outside of work? What are you trying to get better at, at work?”

So, it’s just all these sorts of questions called a user manual, is my cheeky way. It’s, like, if you get a blender, you’re like, “What are all these buttons do?” Well, it’s like, “Well, you just go look at the manual. There’s like some quick start guide.” So, this is just the human version of that. Because how often do we work with people? Maybe for years, and then you’re like, “Oh, you have a brother?” It’s like, “Yeah.”

But we just, like, never sort of have the opportunity to, or think to, or maybe we’re nervous to share about those things. Also, like, we learn so much in working together through trial and error, but it doesn’t have to be that way. So, for example, like, if I’m stressed, I want someone to talk it out with me. I’m a very verbal processor.

But other people want to be left alone, like, “Do not go near me when I’m stressed out. Give me a hot second. It’s going to…” But, like, why should we guess who’s who or like try and get it right and then mess it up? So, there’s a question, “How can others help when you’re stressed or stuck?” And you can say, “Oh, just give me an hour or two and I’ll figure it out,” or, “Ask me how you can help.”

So, it’s a really simple document. Actually, I have a template on my website. If people want to go, it’s BreeGroff.com/usermanuals. You can download it and create one for your team. And it’s just another way to sort of like lubricate our social interactions such that we’re having more fun with the people we’re working with and we’re more supportive of them as well. We’re more seen and when we’re seen, we’re also better liked.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. I also want to hear your comments. In your book, you mentioned a couple of the super tiny little things we can do to, like, give many treats to ourself or to enhance a very basic experience of drinking coffee or tea. Can you speak to these concepts?

Bree Groff
Sure. Yeah, so there’s something that I call thin-slicing your joy. If you are looking ahead at your calendar for the day, and you’re like, “Oh, God, this is going to be painful. Back-to-back meetings, I have to get this thing out, and my inbox is a mess.” Well, if you look at the whole day, sure, it might look hard and dreadful, but we don’t have to look at a whole day.

So, then thin-slicing looks like, “Well, is there one hour, is there one meeting where I know I’m going to have fun? That’s maybe a brainstorm meeting or there’s some people in there that I like.” Or maybe you’re like, “Nope, Bree, every hour looks rough.” And I say, “Okay, great. Thin-slice even further. Are there a few minutes throughout your day where you can squeeze a little extra joy from what you’re already doing?” So, things that take no time.

Smelling is a great one. So, if you’re going to go get yourself a cup of coffee, maybe you stash some cinnamon in the office or in your kitchen and put a little bit on your coffee or your latte, and then just take three seconds and, like, breathe it in. Sensation kind of things are really good for getting us out of our heads, out of sort of like ruminations and anxieties and your head spinning about work.

Another small thing, sometimes the best way to have more fun at work is to help someone else have more fun at work. So, you can send something I call a love bubble, which is just like a two-line text. It could be a text, a DM, an email to a colleague, to say like, “Hey, you totally rocked it in that meeting. I don’t know how you got everybody on the same page. It was so cool.” It’s just like a little note of “You’re awesome. Appreciation. Thank you. So cool that you did that.”

The trick is, like, don’t overthink it, don’t like craft the email. This is not like formal feedback. This is like, “I have a nice thought. I share a nice thought.” Because so often, I think we do have nice thoughts about our colleagues, like, “Oh, they’re so good at that,” we just keep them to ourselves. So, if you can spend 30 seconds shooting off a little love bubble, now you’ve made that person’s day and you sort of kickstarted this positive feedback loop. Now maybe they’ll think of doing the same.

Other, like, little silly things, like micro acts of mischief I really like because they get your adrenaline going a little bit almost office style. Once in a while, you could put Comic Sans in your presentation and see, like, who you can make twitch because it’s like such a terrible typeface. You could rearrange the office furniture. Maybe you play yourself some music. I will say, though, all of these things are, they’re like realistic hacks.

Like, “I’m not having a great time at work. I can’t quit my job and/or maybe I’m just having a bad day. Like, how do I find more joy?” And that’s fine. Like, sometimes we just need to get through things. But I will also say it’s also important to acknowledge, like, “Oh, am I just hacking it through my day every day?” In which case, then it’s a bigger conversation with yourself about, like, “Is there a different role that’s better for me out there?”

Pete Mockaitis
It’s funny, I’m thinking about the TV series “Severance” right now with their really lame, like sort of parties are fun acknowledgments, “And you get to select a style of music and an instrument. We’re having a melon party, and this melon party is not going to start itself.” And what’s funny is, I think that that’s kind of the joke, it’s like, “Oh, these are kind of lame incentives, but these people are like, in some ways almost like children, and so, they can appreciate them.”

But yet, I think there’s also great wisdom in there in terms of like, “We are kind of like children in terms of little things really can be quite delightful.” And I think, often, my sense is, sometimes the more that they violate norms or are weird, in some ways, the more delightful. I mean, I’m sure there’s exceptions, but like the silly socks, for example.

Like, I have, for instance, when I had to get through some stuff, and it was all kind of lame, I would say, “I’m going to celebrate aggressively even though I have very limited resources.” Like, it’s just me. I am in sort of a small office space here but, “I’m going to get a shot glass full of cold water and pour it over my head and pretend it’s like the Gatorade being dumped on the coach, you know, after the victory.”

It’s like, “Well, I had a victory,” and cold water just makes you go, “Ooh,” a little bit. So, I mean, it is so little and so silly, and yet, I guess our inner children, if you will, can find some delight and some fun in it such that it meaningfully transforms the experience of that day.

Bree Groff
Yeah, I mean, the trick here is just amuse yourself. Like, because it’ll look different for everybody. Like, some people are sitting and will be like, “I like my socks just the way I like my…” It’s like, “Great. Don’t do the sock thing.” That’s a very low-bar example. But I guess what I most hope is that people feel the confidence in the value of their days.

And when you feel like you deserve to have a good day, you’re in a position then to try and make that true, to amuse yourself. Because I think so many people will show up to work thinking, “This day is not even mine. I’ve sold it to some employer. I’m not expecting to have fun. I’m here to provide the shareholder value and get my paycheck.” And I get that that sometimes feels like a more honest assessment of work. And yet, I feel like, in that situation, we’ve given up too fast. We’ve settled.

Instead, I think it’s worthy to hold the belief that, like, “Today, whatever day it is, April 12th, this year, I get one shot at this day. This day is not coming back again. This is a day of my life, not just a day that I’ve sold to an employer. So then how do I want to take ownership of enjoying it?” And then it’s just a question of like, “What do you like? I don’t know. What amuses you? What do you find fun?” I think the Gatorade, like the little shot glass of Gatorade is hilarious.

It’s so good because it’s playful. I think there is something in that sort of childish sentiment. Because children realize that there’s value in play just because there’s value in play, not the corporate version of that, that there’s value in play because it drives innovation. No, it’s just simply fun. And now you’ve had that moment of joy and you’ve banked it and it’s yours in life.

I also think it’s important to amuse ourselves because it creates a culture where we give permission to other people to also amuse themselves. And so, sometimes this is sort of like accoutrement around the work, you know, like the socks or the Gatorade example, but also, I think it’s important to amuse ourselves in the work. So, even like when I’m doing client projects and we’re scoping work, I’ll often ask myself the question, like, “How do I want to shape the work or define the work that’s most fun?”

Because I could deliver like an 80-page client deck or like a PowerPoint deck to the client. I would probably do the job. Or, we could design this like two-day immersive offsite experience that’s way more fun to build and way more impactful. So, I think it even goes just beyond the day to day, but, like, “What’s the fun work we want to do and do we have enough belief in the fact that we deserve to be having good days to like risk looking a little silly or childish?” And I think it’s worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, Bree, tell me anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Bree Groff
I said a lot of things.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, well, we’ll do it. That’s fine. Can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Bree Groff
Yeah, I mean, on this topic, I love the Annie Dillard quote, “How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experimental or bit of research?

Bree Groff
Yeah, I’ve always loved the Marty Seligman, he’s a UPenn researcher in positive psychology, the learned helplessness studies. He did this study probably decades ago now, where he would put dogs in this room, would shock their feet, I guess, low shocks that dogs were okay.

In one setup, the dogs weren’t able to escape the shocks. In another setup, they were, they were able to walk off the place where they were getting the shocks. They took those two sets of dogs and put them in yet another trial with shocks. But now, both sets of dogs were able to escape. The dogs that could escape the first time were like, “Yeah, I’m getting out of here,” and they did.

The dogs that could not escape the first time just sat down and whimpered, even though they could escape. They just decided, they had learned, essentially, had learned helplessness, “There’s nothing I can do here. I’ve just got to take it.”

And I loved that study for what it teaches us also about, like, happiness and joy in the workplace. Because I think a lot of us over time, I know I have, at times, have learned, “There’s no fun to be had here. There’s nothing I can do to change it. I’m just going to lay down and whimper and collect my paycheck.” When, in fact, there is so much that we can do.

And in fact, what sort of broke the trance for those dogs who had learned, “I can’t escape this,” was the researchers picking them up and walking their paws off of the shock area to actually teach them, like, “Oh, no, you don’t have to accept this.” So, in some ways I’m hoping to do that for the corporate world as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, lovely. And a favorite book?

Bree Groff
Yeah. So, basically, all of Agatha Christie’s novels because they’re my version of being totally unproductive. In a world that teaches me that I need to be optimizing all the time, reading for pleasure feels delightful and subversive. And so, my favorite reading for pleasure is cozy mysteries, and I love all of hers.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Bree Groff
Yeah, I really love Trello.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Bree Groff
Yeah. So, I love – would you call this a habit? – I love making a Moka pot in the morning. I really love the few minutes that takes me to make it. The minute I stare, I say, I’m just like staring at it, waiting for it to boil. It’s a good sort of sorbet palette cleanser for the start of my day and makes delicious coffee.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a Bree original quote that really seems to connect and resonate with folks?

Bree Groff
“When you overwork, you underlive.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Bree Groff
Yeah, come hang out at my website. So, it’s BreeGroff.com, B-R-E-E-G-R-O-F-F.com. And from there, you can order the book, you can subscribe to my Substack, you can find me on social media, but it’s a good first place to come say, “Hey.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Bree Groff
My goal for you for today is to send a love bubble. Find one colleague or contact. You’re going to shoot them a two line note that says something like, “Oh, that design you did was so good. The plan you wrote up was awesome. Like, thank you so much for doing this thing. It really helped me.” And then make somebody else’s day. We’ll create a pay-it-forward kind of vibe for each other.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Bree, thank you.

Bree Groff
Thank you. That was fun.