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Sep 25
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1096: How to Find More Humor and Fun at Work with Adam Christing

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Adam Christing discusses how anyone can use humor to connect and succeed at work.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why humor matters at work
  2. How to bring the fun—even if you aren’t funny
  3. The five laugh languages

About Adam

Adam Christing brings people together with humor and heart! He is a laughter expert, popular keynote speaker, and award-winning event emcee. Adam has delighted more than two million people across forty-nine of the fifty US states and internationally. He serves as president of CleanComedians.com and is a member of Hollywood’s world-famous Magic Castle. Featured on Harvard Business Review’s IdeaCast and over 100 top podcasts and TV programs, Adam inspires leaders to empower their teams with positive humor and authenticity.

Resources Mentioned

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Adam Christing Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Adam, welcome!

Adam Christing
Hey, Pete, great to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about humor. I think we’re, hopefully, going to have a lot of fun, a lot of laughs along the way. But I’d love it if you could kick us off by sharing, since you’ve been researching this and presenting on this and writing about this, any intriguing, surprising, discoveries you’ve made about humor at work you want to mention right off the bat?

Adam Christing
I think the biggest surprise was just about everybody knows that humor is, well, there’s the old proverb, right, “Laughter is the best medicine.” So, science, as almost everybody knows, is backing that up. Laughter releases endorphins and, literally, relaxes our bodies. It’s just great. It’s good for us.

I knew that would be coming. But what surprised me was, for example, there’s an Oxford study that demonstrates that people who feel safe to play, to laugh, are seeing increases as much as 30% in productivity and collaboration.

And so, I guess the big aha moment for me was what a bridge-builder, how humor creates cohesion in the workplace. And I like to put it this way – humor is a shortcut to trust.

Pete Mockaitis
Tell us more about that, humor is a shortcut to trust.

Adam Christing
Well, there’s a very, very famous standup comedian, you might’ve heard of her, her name was Mother Teresa and, obviously, not a comedian, but a great humanitarian. And I was struck by what she said one time, she said, “A smile is the shortest distance between two people.” And so, sometimes, as business people, as employees, we can feel like, “Oh, I have to entertain other people,” or, “I have to get their attention,” and that can be helpful.

But when we simply change our physiology, and smile, so sometimes I’ll be in front of whether it’s 20 people or even 2000 people, and I will have them stand and put their hands up toward the ceiling, and smile and look up, and I’ll say, “Hey, suddenly, we’re a Pentecostal group.” Everybody laughs. But what I say is, “While you’re looking up, and even if it’s a fake smile on your face, do your best to feel bad,” and people start laughing.

Because when we make the choice to feel good, when we make the choice to smile, even if it feels a little fake, pretty soon other people are smiling and it becomes contagious. And so, a big myth, I think, Pete, is that some people say, “Well, I’m just not funny.” And I don’t know that I’ve ever met a human being who isn’t also a humor being. I think it’s wired into us.

We have a four-month-old grandson, for example, and he can’t talk yet, but he can already smile. He can already laugh. And it’s almost always he doesn’t just sit there and think of a funny thought. It’s because his mom or dad or grandma or grandpa, you know, tickles him a little bit or makes a face or something. But it’s a connector between human beings, and it’s available to all of us.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so then I’m curious, in practice, at work, I think people are a little bit perhaps worried about cracking jokes. How do you recommend we go about bringing more laughter, smile, humor goodness into work in a professional way that gives us the benefits without the downsides?

Adam Christing
I think the first step is you have to give yourself permission. I remember I was a senior in college and I was starting to do some funny speaking and competitive speaking on the college circuit. And I went up to my mentor, and I said, “Dr. Lewis, do you think I could make it as a comedian, as an entertainer?” And he said, “I think you can, but what’s more important is whether you think you can.”

And so, it can feel scary. It can make you feel nervous, but if you give yourself permission, and even if you don’t feel confident, if you act confident and deliver, it could even be a dad joke, it might be wearing something that’s a little offbeat that makes people go, “Hey, that’s fun,” but just kind of taking that chance, you will almost always be rewarded.

Here’s the mistake people make. When you tell a joke or try to get someone to laugh is, if they don’t, you can feel this awkward silence, right? And so, it’s tempting for us to say, “Oh, you don’t get it,” or, “I’ll never do that again.” But the secret of the professional, humorous, funny speakers, comedians, is it goes back to what Mark Twain said. He said, “It takes me three weeks to prepare a good impromptu speech.”

And so, you can plan for spontaneity. You could lead people on a fun icebreaker, for example, where you take the pressure off yourself. You don’t have to be up there doing a Netflix special and being the funniest person in the room, but you can be the orchestrator of fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you give us some examples of winning fun icebreakers?

Adam Christing
Yeah, sometimes it’s as simple as a question. So, I’ll be with probably 150 people next week at a gathering, and my job is to facilitate the fun. And I could get up there and do some standup and I might do a few jokes. But I’ll have them discuss a question around their tables. So, for example, I might say, “I want you, everybody at your table,” say, there are six or eight people at your table, “talk about the first car you ever drove.”

And that’s not a hilarious question, but you would be surprised the answers that people give are warmhearted. They’re fun. Somebody might say, “Well, I actually drove a tractor,” or, “When I was 16, I took dad’s car for a joyride.” And pretty soon, people are telling stories that are not always hilarious, but they’re usually fun and they’re often connectors.

And so, then as the facilitator, I might go around and I might say, “Well, I’ve got a special prize for who had the oldest car or the coolest convertible,” or something, and you keep it interactive. So, I think one of the keys to remember is people never feel bored when you make them feel engaged.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s fun, you’re right. Talking about your first car is not belly laughter, slap your knee,rolling in stitches, but it brings back fond memories in terms of, “Ah, the youth and the freedom,” and there’s just all kinds of some good associations there. And then, it can naturally get one person smiling, reminiscing, because, well, right now, I was a 1989 Chevrolet celebrity, Adam.

Adam Christing
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
And my mom would always remind me that the top was drooping and, I don’t know how it got loose, but I mean, it was just old and it was drooping. And so, I would screw these little tacks in to try and make it go back up. And it didn’t have a CD or cassette tape player, so I had a little boombox strapped in the passenger seat.

And so, as you asked that question, I’m reliving these memories. I’m smiling and it’s fun. And, again, it’s a little amusing that the ceiling was drooping, that you had a boombox strapped into there. And it’s not laugh-out-loud riotous, but we’re having some fun.

Adam Christing
Yes. By the way, is that car for sale because that sounds like a fun car to drive?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, no, I gave it away to my high school girlfriend, or college girlfriend. And then later, I just said, “Hey, so whatever happened to the car?” And she was like, sheepish, didn’t want to admit it, she said, “You know, it was beginning to shake when we approached the highway speeds and make this noise. And my mom said, “This is not safe. And so, we parted with it.” And I thought she was hoping to avoid that question her whole life so I don’t know where it ended up.

Adam Christing
See, I love that story. You just made me laugh several times just by telling a real story. And I have found that, sometimes as leaders, for example, or as managers, we have this pressure to seem smart or to be funny or charismatic. But the truth is, we can just elicit, we can draw out from people shared experiences.

So, I have other questions I might ask, whether it’s an audience or a small group, “What’s the first job, or worst job, you ever had?” Same kind of thing happens. People go back to their memory bank and they say, like, for me, personally, I worked as a custodian for one day, and I had this epiphany, like, “Wait a second,” I grew up learning magic tricks. I’m like, “I don’t really want to do this.”

Not that there’s anything wrong at all with being a custodian or maintenance person, but I’m like, “I’m going to start booking myself doing birthday parties.” So, that leads to a story that I can talk about how my first gig was getting paid $5 and all the pizza I could eat. And pretty soon, we’re telling stories and people can relate.

And so, one of the things I tell people is the root word of funny is simply fun. You don’t have to try too hard to be funny, but if you can create a context where people are having fun, you’d probably still get the credit for it as being the leader or orchestrator, but, really, you’re not the star, you’re the cement kind of holding these things together and connecting people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, in so doing, I mean, we’re enjoying ourselves and we’re feeling more connected, and that’s just good. Are there any other key benefits that emerge when we do more of this funny, fun, good stuff?

Adam Christing
Well, you’ll notice that it’s really hard to feel disconnected from someone when you’re laughing with them. And it goes without saying, but I’ll say it anyway, we want to shift from laughing at people, to laughing with them. So, I’m excited to see this mockumentary. You’ve probably heard about “Spinal Tap,” the latest sequel, right?

And I just know that if I go with my wife or daughter or whoever I go with, we’re going to be laughing. And the first thing we’ll do is we’ll look at each other, and we’ll be like, “Oh, my gosh, we’re experiencing it together.” So, sometimes, and this is more and more common with AI, is we’re typing a prompt and we might even say, “Hey, tell me a joke,” and that could be a fun moment.

But it’s not the same as that heart-to-heart connection that you have when you share a laughter. So, I have discovered five humor tactics. I also call them laugh languages. And you just experienced with me, together we experienced one of them, which I call in-jokes.

And so, now that I know about your first car, you know, imagine if I sent you some text, and I said, “Just in case you need these for your next car,” or something like that, now we’ve got this little bond about your car, or if you said, “How’s it going doing the birthday party magic shows?” I’m like, “Oh, he was listening to me.” And we create this shared experience that we can retell, we can relive, and you never had to come up with a funny monologue to tap into the power of inside humor.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, understood. Well, let’s hear the other tactics.

Adam Christing
Yeah. Well, the very first one might be the most essential. And it’s simply surprise. And so, for example, my mom is not a professional comedian. I have personally worked with over 100 comedians, some famous ones, like Martin Short, and some people I’ve never heard of, and they’re all great. I was thinking about, “What makes my mom so funny?” It’s just because she will say surprising things, and just this genuineness.

So, it might be as simple as sending someone on their half birthday, like six months before their birthday, you can buy a birthday card that is literally a half card, and people go, “What?” And they open it, it’d say, “Hey, it’s your half birthday.” Well, that tells them a couple of things. One, you’re fun. And, two, you’re thoughtful. You remembered their birthday is six months away. That’s just one example.

Sometimes, in our work, we will go to Walmart, and we’ll buy the $3 bouncy ball that you might give to a preschool kid. And I didn’t even know you could do this, but you can. You can take a Sharpie and write right on the ball, take it to your post office, put postage on it with their address. And so, I’ll say something like, “Hey, Pete, I had a ball in your podcast.” Imagine the mail carrier comes to your home or office and delivers this thing.

I have sometimes sent people very expensive gifts with my logo or swag. Nobody cares about that. But if I make them laugh, if I make them feel like a kid again, if I use the element of surprise, you will automatically put a smile on someone’s face.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I’m digging this theme here a lot, in terms of like we reduce the pressure quite a bit as we’re thinking about fun as opposed to dazzling someone with utter hilarity that competes with the greats on their Netflix specials.

Adam Christing
That’s right. Yeah, I think humor, ideally, should take the pressure off even the person sharing it. So, I’ll give you another of the, what I call, laugh languages is wordplay. Some people, the jokes are like, “You belong in a pun-intentiary, and there’s dad jokes.” But I have noticed, like, I’m in airports all the time. Top selling books are dad joke books.

Even Nate Bargatze, who doesn’t do a lot of dad jokes, he does a lot of dad type humor. And I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we don’t call these, like, weird uncle jokes. It’s because they’re safe, they’re cute. Sometimes they’re so bad, they’re good. So, if you discover that your laugh language is wordplay, just like own it, just be the pun meister, you know, and use clever quotes.

And sometimes you can get away with not even coming up with them yourself. You might say, “Hey, before we start our meeting, I have a Yiddish proverb for you. If you’re looking for a helping hand, there’s one at the end of your arm.” And that’s not going to kill at The Comedy Store in Hollywood, but you might put a smile on somebody’s face and get them kind of chuckling and win them over. So, one of the keys is to not try to be funny in a way that you’re not comfortable with.

Another of the laugh languages is amplify. And this is the person who can take a painful little frustration and just turn it into a five-minute rant or monologue. If you find yourself someone who exaggerates stories, that might be your favorite humor tactic. So, usually what makes you laugh is an indication of the type of humor that’s ideal for you to use.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you know, you’re bringing back a fond memory. I remember, I was in a studio, they were shooting some video, and we were just kind of hanging out nearby, eating some food. And someone just started playing this, just invented this game. I don’t know where he came up with it. But it was sort of like a knock-knock-who’s-there, someone starts, and the other person responds.

Someone would start with a job, and they’d say, “Oh, you know, I used to work at an ice cream shop.” And then the other person was supposed to reply with, “Why did you quit?” And then, they would put in some kind of a pun related to it, like, “Oh, they made me work Sundaes.”

Adam Christing
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, we kind of, “Ha, ha, ha,” you know, it’s kind of cringy.

Adam Christing
Yeah, and then somebody else says, “I decided to split.” And what happens is people go, “Oh, my gosh, what’s the next person going to say?” And so, it creates this anticipation, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And I remember we just started laughing so hard, we were scolded.

The producer marched up to the room, and said, “Guys, we’re trying to film. You really can’t be laughing that loud.” And so, it was very memorable because none of these jokes were hilarious. And yet, again, there’s that connecting element. We were all in that groove together.

Adam Christing
That’s right. And you felt like it was like this exclusive shared moment. I’ll tell you, I’m not in comedy clubs like I used to be in my younger days, but the best comedy club I’ve ever been to is in Pasadena, California. It’s where, like, Steve Martin and Robin Williams, a lot of famous comedians got their start way back, ‘70s, 1980s, ‘90s. And it’s called the Ice House because, literally, it was a brick building where they would store ice.

And everybody felt, “Why is this club, I get more laughs at this club than down the street?” And it’s because the acoustics in that room, the intimacy, like the laughter was bouncing off the walls. And so, if you find someone on your team laughing about something, have more of that. Dish up more of that. And you’re going to find the laughter bouncing from person to person.

And what happens is, there are certain radio shows or podcasts where they aren’t even professional comedians, but when you listen and you feel like, “They are having such a good time, I want to be part of that party.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And can you share the final language, the poke?

Adam Christing
Yes, that is the one. And maybe that’s best to share last because I think it’s the trickiest. And this is the idea of poking fun at yourself and gently teasing other people. And, of course, it can go way off the rails if you get into three P’s that I avoid. Politics, I avoid, any prejudice, and, personally, I avoid profanity. And so, people are like, “Well, what else can you have fun with?”

But if you start with what I call self-effacing humor, I don’t call it self-deprecating because that sounds like you’re having digestion issues, but I call it self-effacing because, if you bring yourself down a couple of pegs, a couple of things happen. Your coworkers go, “Oh, she’s cool. And, even more importantly, I can relate to that.”

So, we find each other’s flops very funny. And as leaders, as colleagues, if we can, this is not making yourself look like an idiot, but it’s just being honest about when you messed up. Like, when I tell people I was once a director of a film, and I cast myself in the film because I’d raised the money. And I tell people, true story, Pete, I say, “My acting was so bad, I got cut out of my own movie.”

And they smile, but they also go, “Oh, I can relate to that because I’ve had failures in my work, in my career or my marriages or with my kids.” And so, suddenly, and this is kind of a corny word, but I still own it. I call it “hawthenticity.” Everyone’s talking today in our culture about the power of vulnerability, and it’s for real, transparency. But if you can add the laughter factor in there, now we’re laughing with each other at our own foibles, and we just feel way more connected.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you give us some additional examples? I guess, like, we probably don’t want to draw attention to the fact that, say, we’re in way over our head, we fundamentally lack the competence required to excel in a given role, although that does happen.

Adam Christing
That could be your last monologue, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
So, what are some good zones of self-effacing humor?

Adam Christing
Well, sometimes like the story you just told is an example of that, where you just stumbled into something, these guys, where you just couldn’t stop laughing. So, think about times with your family or your friends where you were busting up. And some of those things might not be appropriate in a work setting. And my golden rule is, “If in doubt, leave it out.”

But when you talk about, like, let’s say you’re starting a meeting and it’s running a little bit late. Maybe you tell a story about how you were late to your own wedding, or you were late to some dear person’s funeral, or something that’s kind of personal, but where you’re not the star. You’re kind of the one who flopped. You will likely get people laughing, but also you get people going, “Oh, I can relate to you now.” And so, positive humor just makes us way more approachable.

Now the second part of poke that we haven’t really unpacked yet is it’s still effective to, whatever you want to call it, tease, josh, roast other people, if they feel like you care about them first. So, one time, I was hired to roast 11 executives with a big accounting firm called KPMG. And I spent, like, 20 hours prepping for this thing. But here was my little secret.

I discovered what they’re most loved for each of these, I think, it was 11 different executives. And then I gave that a twist, where they knew I was actually celebrating them, but I was poking them. So, one guy really was a great dresser and everyone knew it. So, if I poked a little fun at his ties or something like that, he was so confident in his look and his attire that it totally worked, and everybody was busting up. And the key was the person I was poking was laughing the hardest.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a real nice twist on the roast there. And I think I’ve seen a couple roasts, and it’s like, I guess this might be fun for the audience, but the person being roasted is like, I don’t know if they’re still friends after this.

Adam Christing
Yeah, it’s not a good sign when you need to bring your attorney to a roast, “Is this a trial?” Yeah. But I do think, maybe a better word than roast would be toasting. So, for example, let’s say you’ve been asked to be best man in a wedding, or something like that. Well, it’s pretty traditional that you might give a toast. And some people, I think, make the mistake of, well, first, they probably drink too much before they speak. But next, they just turn it into a Tom Brady kind of roast. And that’s probably not appropriate.

But what you want to do is find a couple of things everyone loves about the best man, and then have some fun with it. And so, I think it’s important that we feel linked with people before we laugh about them. And once we do that, I can’t tell you what to say because I don’t know the person that you might be toasting or roasting, but before I speak at an event, for example, I want to know, “What are the acronyms that we can all joke about?”

Almost every company has some funky acronym. Like, in a couple of weeks, I’m going to be with the air traffic controllers of like 300 of them in Las Vegas, and they must have 15 different acronyms. And so, I’ll have some fun with them. But, at the same time, I will be affirming the fact that, “Hey, you guys keep us safe and we appreciate it.” And so, I might butcher some and kind of play fish out of water, but I think we listen our way into the best laughter rather than trying to talk our way into it.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, Adam, I guess, I’m wondering, if 300 air traffic controllers are all in the same place at the same time, not directing air traffic, are we going to be in some trouble during this event?

Adam Christing
I will send a memo to you and your listeners so nobody flies that day. No, I thought that same question, but I think it’s great that, I mean, talk about a high-pressure job, right?

But so, for example, this just came to me. I might say, “I came out here on Delta, which turns out stands for ‘Do Every Leg Through Atlanta.’” Now again, at a comedy club, that’s going to bomb, but for this group, they might, “Oh, yeah, we route a lot of flights through Atlanta.” So, it goes back to that kind of inside humor.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s good. Well, do you have any more guidelines on you? So, “When in doubt, leave it out,” “Avoid the politics, the prejudice, the profanity,” “Be connected before you tease,” “Do more celebrating.” Any other pro tips for preventing us from getting into some trouble?

Adam Christing
Well, here’s a really big tip that I rarely shared. It’s in my book a little bit, but I want to emphasize it. It’s we think and we put this pressure on ourselves, it’s like, “Okay, I want to make everybody laugh with my sales presentation,” or whatever, and that’s great. But if you can laugh at other people’s humor, several awesome things happen.

One, they know you’ve listened to them and you’re affirming them. And so, I think it’s important to not only discover your unique laugh language, but tune into, “How do other people go for laughs? Does she tell hilarious stories? Does he love to give people gifts?” And then enjoy that with them.

And what you’re telling people is like, “You’re awesome. You’re great. And you make me laugh.” And you don’t want to force it. You know, like we’re having a fairly serious dialogue right now, but we’re laughing together and it just feels natural.

Another tip would be, if you do decide to do a joke, and I have plenty of good clean jokes you can pull from, the temptation there, it’s so easy to slip into this, is you tell the punchline and then you step on it. So, for example, there’s one of my favorite comedians of all time, is Steven Wright, and his laugh language clearly is wordplay.

So, he might say a joke like, “I put spot remover on my dog. Now he’s gone.” But if I were to tell that joke and step on it, I might say, “I put spot remover on my dog. Now he’s gone. Ha, ha,” and I put in a nervous laugh, or I say to my listeners, “Oh, you didn’t get it,” or, “I’m not doing that again.” And so, you have to be, like, maybe the greatest talk show host on TV history was Johnny Carson.

When he would tell a joke that didn’t get a laugh, he would just sit with it. And it created this almost delicious awkwardness, and it actually became funnier than the joke. So, after you do share a punchline, pause. It really shows confidence, actually, and you’ll more likely get a laugh, but if you don’t, be okay with that, and then you’ll probably get a laugh anyway.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Adam, tell me, any other top do’s and don’ts you want to make sure to mention?

Adam Christing
Well, one thing people never think about, I mentioned this a little bit with the Ice House is, I like to say the closer they get, the funnier I get. So, for example, if you’re leading a workshop or even if it’s in a conference room, I’ve noticed this in schools, in churches, people tend to want to sit away from the presenter.

And so, if you can take five minutes before your presentation starts, and pack them in closer. So, what happens is you get this effect of people looking at each other, going, “Oh, this is fun. I’m enjoying it.” And they can laugh together. And so, it does matter how you set up your room. If you’re doing a Zoom, for example, instead of thinking, “I have to entertain 20 people on this Zoom,” pull up one person at a time and have a moment with them. Invite them to partake, partake is a strong word, participate in a icebreaker or do a trivia thing.

One time, I hosted an event, it was heavy-duty stuff about software, and we had a panel and, man, people can just go right to sleep with a panel. So, we turned it into a little bit more of a game show. We covered the same questions that we were going to cover, but by making it fun and interactive, we made the panelists come to life more, and we had the audience feel like, “Oh, this is fun. I can actually sit through this hour-long panel. And, no, it’s not going to be a lecture.” Nobody wants to be lectured.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Adam Christing
“The meaning of communication is the response you get.”

And so, sometimes we think the meaning of communication is our content, but, really, it’s the reaction to the content. It’s how you make people feel. It’s, “Did you transfer the conviction that you have to someone else?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Adam Christing
I am almost a cult follower of a book that was written way back in the 1980s by Robert Cialdini, and it’s been updated many times, and I see you nodding your head as we’re talking here, called Influence. And some of the studies in that book have just blown my mind. The power of social proof, for example. I know I’m being kind of theoretical, but in my business, I’ll give you an example.

Choose clear over clever. So, one time we were mailing a sales letter, basically, to convention planners in Las Vegas, and I thought, I’m going to be so clever, I’m going to say, “Don’t gamble on the entertainment at your next convention.” And because they were going to be in Vegas, I thought that would be so clever.

But we decided, “You know, let’s test that,” and this goes back to the social experiment that Cialdini talks about with social proof is, “Let’s test that.” So, we tested a different headline that said, “Give your group the gift of laughter.” The first one got zero responses. The second one, I think, we booked six clean comedians into these corporate events. Everything else was the same except that headline.

So, I encourage people, whatever area you’re at work is, test things out. Try it. Try a joke. Try a different subject line, even for your email. Test things out. You will feel less nervous and more comfortable. This is one of the big secrets, Pete, for standup comedians. Like, somebody like Seinfeld isn’t going to just do an hour-long special like, say, on HBO.

He’s going to take it on the road first. He’s going to road test it. He’s going to see, “This is getting a laugh. This isn’t.” And so, whatever arena you’re in with work is test things, experiment, and the social proof that you’ll get from the reaction tells you, “Okay, I want to do more of that.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Adam Christing
So, another book that influenced me big time is called Rocket Fuel. And so, I think the tool would be 3D questions I ask myself, “Should I do this? Should I ditch it? Should I delegate it?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Adam Christing
I’m discovering that the exercise that you’ll do is the exercise that you enjoy. And so, for me, and I live in Western North Carolina, where it can suddenly rain or it can suddenly be sunny, but the habit is to go out and play disc golf now, because I don’t know what’s going to change with the weather. So, I guess the answer would be to choose fun exercise as soon as you can do it every day.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key sound bite that you’re known for, an Adam original that really resonates with folks and they quote back to you often?

Adam Christing
“It doesn’t have to be filthy to be funny.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Adam Christing
I would send them to TheLaughterFactor.com. Don’t forget the word “the.” And, by the way, if they go to TheLaughterFactor.com, in four minutes, they can discover their unique laugh language because there’s a fun quiz that you can take and it’ll show you more about your way of being funny.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Adam Christing
Yeah, I think, sometimes we’re so pressured to, “Hey, get more productive. Be more collaborative.” And I experienced this myself in my comedy work, it’s like, I have to stop and go, “Wait. I know I can make people laugh on stage, for example, but I need to make sure I’m receiving what I’m giving out.” And so, that would be my challenge, my encouragement to your listeners, is make sure you’re also receiving what you’re giving.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Adam, thank you.

Adam Christing
I’ve had a great time. And, hey, if you ever get that car back, I want a ride.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah.

Sep 18
0

1094: How to Make Any Team Great with Steven Gaffney

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Steven Gaffney shares actionable insights from his latest study on the behaviors, mindsets, and practices of consistently high achieving teams.

You’ll Learn

  1. The critical question that fosters accountability
  2. How to build the courage to say the unsaid
  3. The simple trick to reduce team distractions

About Steven

Steven Gaffney is CEO of the Steven Gaffney Company. He is a leading expert on creating Consistently High Achieving Teams (CHAT). With 30 years of experience working with top leaders and executive teams from Fortune 500 companies, associations, and government agencies, he is an authority on issues from team achievement and thriving cultures to leading change and daily innovation. He is the author of Unconditional Power: Thriving in Any Situation, No Matter How Frustrating, Complex, or Unpredictable.

Resources Mentioned

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Steven Gaffney Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Steven, welcome back!

Steven Gaffney
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, it’s been almost three years since we last had you on the show. Could you share with us any super fascinating learnings, discoveries you’ve made in this meantime?

Steven Gaffney
We have a new study that just came out and it provides a lot of interesting stats, and I’ll just mention one. Sixty-nine percent of people report that being in the office is more productive than remote. It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t ever work remotely, but it’s really insightful that that’s what the study reveals.

We also have around distractions and all kinds of stuff, which we can delve into. And our newest thing that we’ve just come out with over this past year is we’ve taken all of our content and now it’s online and interactive through AI, and it’s really the only system out there that builds effective teams for any level out there. So, a lot of organizations are now using it, so a lot of great stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that is nifty. Okay. Well, so in your study, the National Study on Consistently High-Achieving Teams, or CHAT, which is funny because the word chat feels so relaxed, and high-achieving sounds so hardcore, like the Navy SEALs.

So, tell us, so that’s an interesting stat right there, 69% of people find they’re more productive in the office, which is, well, that’s already intriguing because, I guess, 31% think just the opposite. So, if you force everyone to come to the office all the time, a good chunk of people are like, “Hey, actually, I’m doing worse here.”

Steven Gaffney
Well, it’s tricky, right? And I’m not saying again that people should not be working remotely ever or that hybrid is not effective. That’s not what I mean. But here’s what I do mean. There’s nothing ever going to take the place of being in the presence of another human being. There just isn’t, right? Do you remember with COVID, people said, “Oh, it’s going to change all kinds of behaviors”? It has changed some behaviors, but it’s like how people are social and whatnot.

And then now you see restaurants crowded, people traveling, a lot of things have obviously come back and this is not about COVID. It is about humanity and how we connect with each other. So, in business, when you’re having a critical meeting, is it worth bringing everybody together? Absolutely. Does it mean you should delay it for months to make that happen? No, I’m not saying that at all. What I am saying again, is it’s so important at times to make sure that we’re in the presence of another human being.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, while we’re there, can you share what are kind of the key factors that really make something ideal for in-person?

Steven Gaffney
Well, if you think about it, like a strategy meeting. Again, let’s take that for a moment. Could you do a strategic meeting over Zoom? Absolutely. Did we do many meetings and virtual training and still do that? Yes. But if it’s going to take, and where it’s a critical meeting, let’s say on a strategy, bring it together because here’s the reason why. When you call a break, people are going to talk to each other on the side. What are they going to do virtually? Call each other? Well, that could be the case.

But you run into people, you have outside conversations, you go to dinner, which produces another kind of social connection. There’s all kinds of benefits in bringing people together. So, again, we can go down this path, but all the work we do is around consistently high-achieving teams, it is about producing results. So, what’s going to produce the most effective results, and that’s how to make the decision.

Pete Mockaitis
Makes good sense. Now you’ve got seven key discoveries. And I know that’s a lot of key discoveries, but could you perhaps give us the one- or two-sentence version of the seven discoveries? We’ll have an overview and then we’ll dig into a few.

Steven Gaffney
So, we can go through many. But let me just give you one that’s really interesting. Thirty-nine percent of people reported that there’s little to no accountability in their teamwork. Now think about that. We all know accountability is critical, doing what you say and holding others accountable.

But if 39% of people are, essentially, saying it’s not existing in the team, that produces a great possibility to increase productivity by increasing accountability. And this is not about, you know, nagging at people. It’s about holding people accountable. In fact, let me give the listeners something really interesting to consider.

Medium-achieving teams are accountable to their boss or leaders, but great teams, consistently high-achieving teams, are accountable to each other, whether or not the boss or the leader is around. In fact, one of my clients, the whole focus is, the organization is doing pretty well, but it’s a lot leader-dependent. And so, our work came in there, and we can talk about how we did it.

But it’s, essentially, “How do you get everybody to interact so that, if the leader is on vacation or off to other meetings, the team runs as effectively as if they’re there?” I’m not saying leadership is not important. But I’m saying accountability is critically important.

Pete Mockaitis
That makes sense. Just so we’re super clear on what we mean by accountability, could you paint a picture for what it looks like in a team where there is little to no accountability, that 39%? So, let’s say, someone asks a colleague, “Oh, could you send me the numbers on the call center or performance last quarter?” And they say, “Sure.” And then three days later, it doesn’t happen. Like, what’s the little to no accountability view of what happens then versus the high-achieving accountability perspective?

Steven Gaffney
Well, let me just say, I wrote an article called “All-In Accountability” and they’re welcome to having that as well as the National Study. All they have to do is contact us at our website, JustBeHonest.com. But let me kind of address something that a lot of people don’t consider when we’re talking about accountability with a team – lack of honest communication.

But what I mean by honest communication is not about truth or lies, you know, people outwardly lying. The biggest problem is not what people say, it’s what they’re not saying to each other. It’s when we’ve walked in and work with a team and there’s a lot of unsaid not being said.

Like, here’s an example. Somebody’s dropping the ball, or somebody who’s only thinking about their area and not thinking about the entire team, or somebody who’s just really a jerk to deal with, difficult. Or, how about somebody who’s always complaining and never offers a solution, or somebody who’s always talking and never listens?

These are the kinds of things that we got to get the unsaid said about in a very productive way and work on resolution. That’s what I’m talking about. So, if I had to say one thing for people to focus on, it’s not what people are saying, it’s what they’re not saying to each other and the critical skillset is, “How do you get the unsaid said?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, one thing that’s left unsaid in that little scenario I put out there is like, “Hey, earlier you said that you were going to send this to me, and I don’t seem to have it.” So, it’s just the saying of it?

Steven Gaffney
Right. But here’s where it really gets interesting. When the person goes, “I’m sorry, I made a mistake. I’ll do a better job next time.” And then they keep doing the problem. So, people often will say to me, “What do I do in that situation?”

Again, you got to get the unsaid said, which is, “Hey, I want to talk to you about these missed deadlines.” “Oh, I’m sorry. I’m going to do better.” “Well, wait a minute. We’ve had that conversation before.” And then you want to say, “I’m not blaming you, but how do we work together so I can hold you accountable and you can hold me accountable?”

And here’s the critical question, “What’s going to be different as we move forward? Because I don’t want to nag you? I don’t want to pester you. How do we rely on each other and work together?” That’s the type of thing I’m talking about.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, while we’re trying to do more saying of the unsaid, are there any best or worst practices that you’d highlight?

Steven Gaffney
Sure. So, let me highlight three. First, ask the key question. Whatever the question we most want to ask and are afraid to ask, that’s really the one. Let me give you an example. I was doing a session in Philadelphia and this lady came up to me, and she said, “Look, I’m really worried about my job.” And I said, “Well, why don’t you ask your boss, your leader, the person you report to, ‘How am I doing at my job? Am I doing the job you want me to?’” And she started to get teary-eyed.

And I said, “Wait, what’s going on?” She said, “Well, I’m afraid to ask.” And I said, “Well, what’s the worst that your leader or boss could say?” And she goes, “I’m afraid he’s going to say I’m not doing a great job.” My response to her is, “When’s a good time to find that out?”

If we’re afraid that we’re not doing a great job with whoever we’re reporting to, or a customer, and even like at home, what we’re most afraid to ask is usually the question we need to ask. Because, as I often say to people, “What’s the worst-case scenario?” and then, “When would be a good time to find that out?” As soon as possible. That’s the type of thing I’m talking about.

So, asking questions would be number one. A second one is, create that emotional safety. And emotional safety is an upgrade from psychological safety. So, we hear a lot about psychological safety, but I’ve been in the workforce for over 30 years doing this type of work. And I can tell you, people can cognitively, psychologically get it’s okay to speak up, but sometimes they feel afraid.

So, we want to create that emotional safety. And one of ways to look at is people get defensive. Have you ever had somebody say to you, “Listen, you can give me any kind of feedback, please, any kind. I’m really open to it”? So, you give them constructive criticism and then they get mad. You’re like, “What’s going on here?”

And then the next time they ask you for feedback, you’re like, “I’m not going there.” So, we can actually train and condition people to lie to us by our reaction. And that happens a lot with teams. So, leaders need to, and people need to regulate when people are using an awful tone, getting defensive, because that will shut down people speaking up.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And then, I suppose, in practice, this is, indeed, emotional stuff. People feel scared. People feel defensive. How do we deal with this messy human emotion stuff, Steven?

Steven Gaffney
So, the best thing is, if we’re just talking about emotions for a moment, is to embrace the emotion you feel. Carl Jung said, “What we resist persists.” And have you ever been, like, feeling down, and somebody goes, “Well, just cheer up”? Don’t you want to just look at that person and go, “That’s groundbreaking. I never thought, ‘If I’m down, all I have to do is cheer up.’”

Or how about this when you’re stressed, and somebody goes, “Don’t get stressed.” Just look at them, and go, “That’s brilliant. All I have to do is not be stressed. If I knew it, I wouldn’t do that, right?” So, part of it is embracing the emotion and giving ourself the permission that it’s okay to feel that way. And then turn to say, “What am I going to do about it?”

So, here’s an example. Let’s say you work for somebody that’s really tough, right? They say they want open-door policy, you can say to them anything, and you give them some feedback, and they get upset. Maybe the getting the unsaid said could be, and I’ve coached people to do this, is go to the person and say, “Listen, I’m worried about sometimes talking to you because I notice I bring things up and it seems like you get upset, and I don’t want to upset you.”

“So how can I best bring up things that are not always the best things to bring up?” In other words, bad news. “What can I do? Because sometimes I feel like I’m walking on eggshells. Again, I’m not blaming you. It’s just how I feel.” And so that’s what I’m talking about. So, embrace and then figure, “Okay, what am I going to do about it?” Does that help?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Yes, indeed. And it’s interesting, you might get all kinds of responses to that. And that could be surprising from, “Oh, well, please try to do it privately,” “Please try to give me a super specific example,“ “Please try to connect that to our results or KPIs or business objectives,” or, “Hey, yeah, I’m just hot-headed. I’m going to yell sometimes, and I’m sorry. It doesn’t mean I hate you. That’s just probably going to happen. And so, my apologies but it doesn’t mean anything bad.

And you’d be like, “Oh, okay. So, you’re telling me you might yell at me, but it’s not a big deal. Not what I was expecting, but that’s more useful than not having that context.”

Steven Gaffney
Yes. So, let me talk about this for a moment. One of the big reasons why people get defensive or upset when somebody is just bringing up some negative stuff is because they don’t offer solutions. Have you ever been around somebody who is just offering constructive criticism, but they never offer solutions? So that can be wearing on other people.

So perhaps that person might say, “Well, look, the reason why is because you just dumped a complaint in the news or bad information, which, okay, but I want to hear some solutions. We’ve got to work together,” so maybe that’s it. So, I’m not saying that’s the reason, but it could be a reason, but again, it comes back to getting the unsaid said.

I’ll give you something else to consider. A lot of people are clueless about how they come across. I know that seems weird, right? And there’s all this about emotional intelligence, but I’ve worked with a lot of people and a lot of leaders who they know they’re about coming across, it could be tough with people. They don’t know how it’s landing with people.

Another thing to consider that I found really fascinating over the years is poor performers receive poor feedback. Now, I know that sounds odd, like, “Wouldn’t poor performers get a lot of feedback that they’re not doing a great job?” But I’ve worked with a lot of people who are, turns out, are not doing well and I’m hired to work with them.

And so often, people just haven’t told them. In fact, haven’t you ever heard this? Because of all your great podcasts and doing the work you’re doing, but have you ever heard of how leaders will sometimes inherit an employee that is obviously not doing the job? And you look at their performance reviews, and they’re stellar, and it’s like, “What’s going on?”

So, then you go contacting maybe other people from the company that maybe transferred this person, and you find out the problem was there, but people didn’t want to deal with it. Again, poor performers receive poor feedback. It’s always about getting good actionable feedback.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Yeah, we had Kim Scott on the show, talking about radical candor, as well as an employment lawyer who said, “Whenever there’s a wrongful termination suit, it’s always the defense who brings up the performance reviews.”

It was like, “Well, all these reviews said they were doing great. They were meeting expectations year after year after year.” It’s like, “Oh, well, you know, they don’t.” It’s hard to say to the judge, “Well, yeah, but our performance review process is kind of bull, and we just sort of rush through the perfunctory checkboxes to get that done.”

Steven Gaffney
Well, I can also tell you something interesting, bringing up the legal aspect. A lot of leaders are worried about, “How do you give feedback so it goes well?” And often, in this day and age, where people want to litigate things and file complaints, it is challenging.

So, I’ve been brought in many situations where there might be an investigation going on. And what’s happened? Because a leader came in, wanted to change the culture, and the people that weren’t doing a great job started filing complaints. Now, sometimes they’re valid, but quite often they’re not valid. And so, again, I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t comment legal things. But what I can say is, having worked with so many people, it’s fearful to sometimes get feedback because they’re worried about the backlash.

So, we’ve developed a nine-step methodology on how to give effective feedback and have it work. If they want that, please contact us, again at our JustBeHonest.com website. They got to mention your show and we’ll send them this about how to have difficult conversations, The National Study, and there was something, oh, about “All-In Accountability.” All of that, we’ll give them. But it’s really about having really critical feedback, but a lot of times people are afraid to.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, so that’s accountability. Another key discovery was associated with distractions. Tell us about this.

Steven Gaffney
Yeah, it’s amazing. Another staggering statistic, 37% of people reported being distracted in their job and in meetings. And what’s interesting is how often people reported about just being out to lunch. They just don’t want to deal with the meeting, so they just disconnect. I mean, if have you ever watched a meeting, you’ll see how people disconnect. They’ll look at people, but they’re really not involved, or they’re actively not involved.

And what we also found out is 39% of companies don’t have a way to manage distractions. They don’t make it critically clear what’s appropriate and what’s not appropriate. So, I’ve been brought into watch meetings and seen people texting under the table, on their laptop, and I’m not talking about taking notes. I’m talking about just distractions. And the leader doesn’t even say anything.

Like, I’ll share with you an interesting story. So, some years back, I was brought in to work with this team. And the leader of the team, who’s responsible for about a billion dollars, had the head of business development in the middle of the team meeting start texting, not one phone, but he had two phones. So, it was a huge distraction and I’m observing it.

So, afterwards I said to who ended up being my client, “Why are you allowing this?” And he said, “Well, I’m just afraid to confront him because he has so many connections with our customers. I’m just afraid to really do this, that he’s going to get upset.” Again, it’s the inability to manage distractions. It’s an easy fix. You just say to people, “Look, when we’re in the meeting, no use of texting or emailing or whatever. We’re in the meeting. We’re going to get in and out of that meeting.” So, people don’t really manage distractions really well.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, there’s just the decree, “This is how we do it.” And so, any other pro tips on the distractions?

Steven Gaffney
Well, it depends on what kind of distractions are going on. So, part of it is also watching group dynamics. So, for example, let’s say somebody dominates, a good leader has got to manage that accordingly. Or, how about somebody who just keeps rambling on and on and not getting to the point?

I was working with another team that was an international team and they had one leader in particular is when it was coming to share, he was saying his point but then going on and on and on. So, I pulled him aside and said, “The longer you talk, people are losing your point.”

So, he said, “What do you think I should do?” I said, “Why don’t you just say, ‘My point is,’ or, ‘We’re rambling,’ saying, ‘My point is,’ and coming back to it.” Now some of these seem to be like such easy fixes but, quite often, they are easy fixes. Again, it’s just going back to giving that person feedback. That would be another example.

Pete Mockaitis
And when you say, to that point, they’re often easy fixes and people are, often just, have no clue how they come across, this reminds me of our conversation with Dr. Tasha Eurich about how we’re less self-aware than we think for the most part. What are your top suggestions for how we can, generally, get a clue and figure out, “Oh,” so that we burst our bubbles quicker? I guess, you say just ask. But how else do we figure out what’s the stupidly simple thing I should start doing or stop doing that will just make me way better?

Steven Gaffney
Well, besides asking, what we also need to do is rewarding feedback. And it can’t be just, “Thanks for sharing.” It has to be, “What are we going to do with that information?” Have you ever had somebody ask you for feedback, you give them feedback, but they keep repeating the same problem? And after a while, you just say, “Forget it”?

Well, how about somebody in your personal life who is just having the same problem over and over again, and they’re always asking or complaining around the situation, but they don’t do anything different? We have to reward people with feedback. And one of the ways to reward the feedback is to do something with it. So that’s one thing.

So, we’ve covered asking questions, creating that emotional safety, rewarding feedback. But I’ll give you the overall thing that we really need to consider. Are we surrounding and supporting people who are willing to speak the truth? You know, really? It’s hard to do. So, are we interviewing? Are we creating situational questions when we’re interviewing people to make sure that they’re good fit and they are going to get the unsaid said?

A good question to ask somebody when you’re interviewing them is, “Tell me a time when you disagreed with your boss and how you handled it.” And they say, “Well, you know, I just gave some feedback and I just moved forward.” That’s not really the desire.

I’ll give you one of the best responses I’ve ever had when I’ve interviewed someone on this question. She said, “Well, there was a time I disagreed with my boss, so I presented something. He disagreed. So, I went back, took that feedback. I was really passionate about that idea.”

“So, I retooled that idea in light of the feedback and then came back and re-approached my boss with the newer version of that idea, and then he went forward with it.” So, what did that tell me? It told me that, when she really believes in something, she’s going to do something, but she isn’t going to be belligerent, right? But she’s going to take in the feedback and do something, and she was a fantastic assistant. That’s what I’m talking about.

So, look at how we interview, that’s another thing, but just as a whole, how we’re surrounding ourselves by people. And then are we asking questions, creating that emotional safety and rewarding that feedback?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now let’s hear a bit about your mindset discovery.

Steven Gaffney
The big thing around the mindset kind of goes back to this whole powerless distinction we talked about a couple years ago. So, have you ever noticed that when you’re in a good mood, you’re smarter? So, when we’re in a good mood, we’re just smarter. So, we identified three types of mood, or you could say mindset.

The first mindset is a powerless mood or mindset. That’s the feeling we sometimes feel when we’re defeated, resigned, you know, “What difference can I make? You know, there’s all these problems.” The second type of mood or mindset is conditionally powerful. And conditionally powerful means we recognize that we have power over the situation, but it’s conditional on other things.

That’s the kind of mindset where people say, “Well, you know, I can do that as long as you give me more money,” or, “As long as there’s more resources,” or, “As long as we have better talent,” or, “As long as there’s not that bureaucracy,” or, “As long as the market’s changed.” There’s always some condition. But the desirable mood or mindset of a great team, of great individuals is unconditionally powerful.

Unconditionally powerful means we recognize there are conditions, but we spend 100% of our time on what we’re going to do about it. I’ll give you an example. In 2009, I got diagnosed with cancer, and that was in the middle of also the big recession.

So, I was faced with a tremendous amount of headwind, and I thought to myself, “Okay, well, I have cancer,” that’s just the end story. This is now, I’m completely fine. I had cancer, but the key question is, “What was I going to do about it? Am I going to spend time on that I have cancer or going to spend time on how I’m going to respond and what am I going to do about it? We’re in the middle of the recession. I can’t change the recession, but I can look at how we’re operating our business.”

So, I took that as an opportunity to retool my entire business. Because, again, I can’t change the stimulus or what’s coming at me, but I can change how I respond. And from that year on, we’ve had our best years ever in business. It’s not because I’m that smart. It’s just because I recognize it’s foolish to spend energy on things we can’t control. Yet people do spend a lot of time on what they can’t control.

Watch how many people complain about whether it’s politics, markets, or whatever. That might be interesting dialogue, but what are you going to do about it? So that’s true about work, and it’s true about personal life. Being unconditionally powerful and focus 100% of our energy on what we can do about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we’re all glad that you are well and have come out successfully there. So, let’s zoom in on cancer in terms of what does the powerless mindset sound like in response versus the unconditional power? Like, what are the things one does when one discovers that there’s cancer?

Steven Gaffney
In full disclosure, my cancer was testicular cancer, which on the spectrums of cancer is very easy to take care of. I did have an operation, went through chemo, so it’s not a piece of cake, but it’s not as, like, where other cancers are really endowed or odds are way against them and type of thing. So, I want to put that in perspective.

Having said that, I can tell you, when I first got the diagnosis, I was completely down. In fact, you know, I pride myself on being very positive. I’ll never forget the doctor said, “You have a 90% chance that this is going to work.” And I remember driving home and thinking, “There’s 10% I’m going to die.” I was focused on the 10%.

And then I had to kind of wake up and deal with the situation. So, we all have those normal reactions. But then you look at who are we around, and sometimes it’s important to have a great support structure to pick you up when you’re down and whatnot. And so, eventually, where I came out with is, “Okay, what am I going to do about this?”

So how that looked is, “Okay, I have to go through the operation, got to go through chemo. That is the way it is. But what am I going to do about this?” So, I hired some people to cover some of the things that I couldn’t get done. And then I looked around, a lot of the people around me in my life, and who are really good fits and who’s not. And why I’m saying that is, you ever notice that when you’re challenged in life, you really find out who your really great friends are?

And it’s not always that obvious, because I remember, there are certain people that I thought would definitely step up and they didn’t, and then other people I never thought would step up and they did. So, everybody wants to be along for the party, but during difficult times it’s an opportunity to really recalibrate your life.

So, those are the types of things, and I’ve developed some wonderful, wonderful friendships, changed a lot of things in my life, but again, “What am I going to do about it?” So, I want to put it in perspective of the type of cancer I have. But the principle still holds true no matter what challenge we’re going through is what are we going to do about it? That’s the key question.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And can you share with us, if we’re having trouble thinking of something, because you say when you feel good, you’re smarter, when we feel bad, we’re dumber, if we’re feeling pretty bad and powerless, and we’re thinking, “What can I do about this? Hmm, well, Steven, that’s the trouble. Nothing comes to mind. I guess I’m feeling dumber.” Are there some go-to’s that we can always do?

Steven Gaffney
Well, first, an interesting mindset is to remember every problem creates an opportunity. Every problem creates an opportunity. I’m not saying every problem is a good thing. People say, “Oh, you know, it’s got his way of working and stuff like that.” That’s way above my pay grade. I’m very simple. There’s a problem. There’s always going to be an opportunity.

So, there was an opportunity for me to calibrate my life and whatnot. There’s always things that I think are really important to do on the mindset. I will say this, though. Overall, we need to be vulnerable in our life and ask for help. Quite often, we’re just doing it alone in life. And this is, you know, how vulnerable are we being?

So, let’s say you’re leading a team. It could be a small team, whatever. And you don’t have all the answers. Instead of, like, being down about it, maybe it’s a great opportunity to say to the team, “Look, I know we can pull through this. I just don’t have the answers. So, let’s spend some time and brainstorm all the ideas we can come up with on how we’re going to respond to this situation.” So, in other words, lean on people.

Quite often people are suffering in silence, instead of being vulnerable and asking for help. That’s one thing or another thing you can do is be vulnerable.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. What else?

Steven Gaffney
Well, I mean, as far as the cancer, just tough situations, well, there’s a lot of things that I put into the book, Unconditional Power, along that. But another really critical around is doing intentional disruption. So, we’ve all felt down. It could be on a, let’s put it on a more simpler basis. You get an email that brings you down, something’s disparaging, or you have a call that doesn’t go well.

If you wallow in it, it can often make it worse. I’m not saying not to embrace it, but if we wallow in it and just sit there. So, intentional disruption is a fantastic strategy, because you disrupt a pattern that is not working for you. So, what it might look like is you get up from your seat, you might go take a walk or go for a run or call a friend that makes you laugh.

Like, I have a good buddy of mine, his name is Reza Khederi. I can always call him, and no matter what state I’m in, he’ll make me laugh. He’ll always come up with some kind of joke or interesting insight. Like, I’ll give you an example. One time I was down, and he said, “Remember, even our worst days are somebody else’s best days ever.” Even our worst days are somebody’s best day ever.

In other words, really appreciate what you have. Now, again, it sounds obvious, but it’s really good to kind of reach out. And so, we build that friendship and then reach out, so intentional disruption. And there’s also mental intentional disruption, right? Instead of saying, “Why is this happening?” I could say, “What am I going to do about this? What’s it going to take for me to move forward?” Or, here’s a good question, “Can I live with it?”

Three great questions you can always ask yourself and ask other people that will always interrupt any negative pattern is, “What would you suggest? What would it take for you to agree? And can you live with it?” “What would you suggest?” is great, because if you’ve ever had somebody negative come at you and you just say, “Well, what would you suggest?”

Or, you propose something and it doesn’t go well, “Well, what would it take for you to agree?” Or sometimes you just got to ask somebody and say, “Okay, I get you’re upset. Is this a deal breaker or can you live with it?” So, interrupt your own pattern as well as others.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, tell me Steven, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Steven Gaffney
Well, the thing I want to come back to is, whether they go to us or not, is to look at all the available online learning that is out there. So, whether it’s, well, there’s many, even we were talking about earlier. But we have a new system out, and if they mention your show, we’ll give them the first month for free. And what it is, is we have an online system that helps all leaders turn any team into a great team.

So, they can have a month of that for free, and its access to all our content. And what really makes it interesting is there’s an AI overlay. So, they don’t have to really study the system. All they have to do is ask the internal system, “I’m working through a difficult time and not collaborating well with another team,” or, “We’re lacking trust issues,” or, “We’re trying to achieve some extremely high goals. What do I do?”

The AI answers it. And then there’s videos that you can show with your team on how exactly to execute on that. So, we have a whole online system that is available to them and we’ll give them the first month for free, as long as they mention your show, of course.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Steven Gaffney
Albert Einstein, “There’s two ways to live your life. One is though nothing is a miracle. The other is though everything is. The choice is yours.” I love that quote.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Steven Gaffney
Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Steven Gaffney
AI, I think, is critical, right, ChatGPT or some of the other ones that are critical. But I’ll tell you why this is so important is, and again, I know it makes mistakes and there’s a lot of things, but it really speeds up what we’re able to do.

I know that sounds obvious, but you got to embrace it and use it. And I’ll tell you how we’re hiring now is I want people to think of AI first, AI-first mentality. In other words, if you’re doing a task, could you offset, use some form of program around AI first? I want that to be the inkling first because it speeds up how we respond to our customers as well.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Steven Gaffney
Exercise, that’s critical.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that you’re really known for, people quote back to you often?

Steven Gaffney
“Getting the unsaid said.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Steven Gaffney
They can go to our website, JustBeHonest.com. And again, if they mention the show, what do we say? So, I just want to make sure we get the study, right? So, I’m holding the study. They can get the “All-In Accountability,” and also how to have difficult conversations, as well as that whole month access to that whole online system that’ll help them with any teamwork.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Thanks. And do you have a final challenge for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Steven Gaffney
Appreciate. So, people are stingy with their appreciations. They just are. And part of it is obvious, “Okay, well, I’m going to appreciate my employees.” But how often do you appreciate your boss, your friends, and things like that? People are stingy. And I’ll tell you, I’ve never heard anybody leaving a job because they were appreciated too much, “Can’t stand it. Got to get out of here. Too much appreciation.”

It just doesn’t happen. So, could people do it too much? Maybe, but I just haven’t seen it. The point is, take time and appreciate the people around you.

And I don’t mean just saying thank you. Just show them something, or at least say, “Hey, look, I noticed you changed this behavior. It means a lot that you’ve changed it.” Somehow appreciate people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Steven, thank you.

Steven Gaffney
Thank you.

Aug 28
0

1088: How to Build Higher Performing Teams with Emotional Intelligence with Vanessa Druskat

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Vanessa Druskat reveals an overlooked key to unlocking your team’s performance: emotional intelligence.

You’ll Learn

  1. The number one skill leaders need to work on
  2. Why a team of stars doesn’t guarantee results—and what will
  3. Two easy practices that unlock greater performance

About Vanessa

Vanessa Druskat is an associate professor at the Peter T. Paul College of Business and Economics at the University of New Hampshire. As an internationally recognized leadership and team performance expert, Vanessa Druskat advises leaders and teams at over a dozen Fortune 500 and Fortune Global 500 companies. Her best-selling Harvard Business Review article (with S. Wolff) on emotionally intelligent teams has been chosen six times for inclusion in collections of HBR’s most valued articles. She is the recipient of multiple research and teaching awards.

Resources Mentioned

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Vanessa Druskat Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Vanessa, welcome!

Vanessa Druskat
Thank you, Pete. It’s great to be here with you and your audience.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. I’m excited to be chatting about emotional intelligence today. And so, since we’re going to say the word a lot, I think it’d be helpful to do some defining upfront. It’s a popular term. What exactly do you mean when you say emotional intelligence?

Vanessa Druskat
I like to think of it as recognizing emotion and using it as data. So, we now know that we never turn our emotion off, and people around us don’t turn emotion off, and we send signals to one another through emotion.

And so, the question is whether or not we recognize it in ourselves and what it channels to others, and whether or not we recognize it in others. And then once we know it’s there, do we manage it? Do we think about it? That kind of thing. So, emotional intelligence is using it as data.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And I think some people might be just sort of brush aside emotional intelligence like, “Well, yeah, of course, you know, I’m going to be respectful and not a jerk and try to listen to people and understand where they’re coming from.” So, am I doing it? Am I doing the things to be emotionally intelligent there, Vanessa? Or is there more to it?

Vanessa Druskat
Oh, a good one. Well, it’s not about just being nice. It is about fulfilling the goals in the moment. And, of course, I like to think of those goals as being humanistic in intent. So, for example, sometimes you have employees that just don’t listen to you unless you get harsh. You recognize their emotions, that they’re not affected by your feedback, and you got to get tougher with them. And so, you can read that in them and you modulate your emotion and get it tougher.

Let me give you an example. I tend to be very empathetic. And so, I have a lot of students, you know I’m a university professor, I have a lot of students who come and argue with me about their grades. One time, I had a student come and say, “I’m going to lose my scholarship if you don’t change my grades.” And in the back of my head, I was being very empathetic and thinking, “Oh, no, there goes her scholarship.” But I had to be fair. And she had many opportunities during the year to come talk to me, and I had said that to her.

So, anyway, point being that I had to manage my empathy in that case and think about the whole, all the other students whose grades I wasn’t going to change. So, anyway, it’s not just about being nice. It’s about thinking about, “What are your goals?” Fairness is always a goal for me and I override my empathy in order to become fair quite often.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, to your definition there, it’s, like, you’re recognizing your emotional instinct, like, “Oh, shucks, that sounds really tough for this person. I’d hate to put them in a tight spot. Oh, I really don’t want them to suffer.” So, you’re recognizing that empathetic emotion, and then you’re using it as data, it’s like, “So, therefore, I’m going to need to dig deep and kind of present something counter to what is sort of naturally would bubble up inside of me.”

Vanessa Druskat
Exactly. And another great example is nervousness, anxiety. So, I talk to a lot of leaders, especially since I work with MBAs. They’re just starting out in their career and they’re not feeling confident. And I have to coach them to turn their nervousness into excitement. So, if they recognize they’re nervous, it’s easier to work with it and to manage it. People don’t want to be led by a leader who doesn’t sound like they know where they’re going.

It’s a really key skill. We now know that emotional intelligence is the heart of social skills, interpersonal skills. We never used to know how to measure interpersonal skills. Now we do, because interpersonal skills, every interaction involves an exchange of emotion. And, by the way, if we want to merge into why do I study emotion in teams, it’s because teams are hotbeds of emotion.

Think about all the interactions that are going on at any time, “Who’s talking? Who’s not talking? Who’s saying things? How are they saying? How is that affecting me and my ideas?” And so, if you think about teamwork, it’s really a place or a situation in which you want to have an emotionally intelligent environment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly. And you say, “Now we can measure it.” Tell me how is this measured?

Vanessa Druskat
Well, there are several different measurements for emotional intelligence. I would say that there are probably four really great ones out there. You can Google it. You can go to the Consortium for Research on Emotional Intelligence in Organizations. The acronym is CREIO, C-R-E-I-O. And we list all of them.

I’m on the exec board of that organization. We list all the assessments that are out there on that website. And you can take a look at critiques of them, pros and cons of all of them, but there are a lot of options now. There are self-assessments. It turns out self-assessments tend not to be so great.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I was going to say, if you were going to go there, I was going to challenge you. Because, I mean, I’ve taken some of these, like, “Yes, I strongly agree,” or, “I very frequently take into account the other emotions of the people on my team,” or, “Yes, I respect norms in my team.”

And so, it’s like, well, we’ve had Tasha Eurich on the show a couple of times talking about self-awareness and how people tend to be not as self-aware as they think that they are. And so, yeah, the self-assessment, I think, has some value, but also has plenty of potential to be wildly off for many folks. So, how is it done in practice then beyond the self-assessment?

Vanessa Druskat
Well, there are some scales that, first of all, ask others about how you come across, “Are you empathetic?” and various permutations of what that looks like. And then there are some that ask sort of deep questions, like, “What would you do in this circumstance?” And you have to make selections about how you would manage your emotions or help others manage their emotions or how emotionally aware you’d be. So, there’s a lot of good options out there.

But I got to tell you, you know, there’s also a lot of different ways of measuring IQ. And so, you know, and there’s a lot of disagreements. I’ve been in meetings with a bunch of IQ researchers, and they can’t agree on a definition. And it’s pretty well the same with emotional intelligence. I mean, we do tend to agree on the definition, but there are nuances.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Well, that’s interesting. And I guess I’m curious in terms of, if anyone is continuing to discount like, “Oh, yes, emotional intelligence, that’s just common sense. Of course, that’s a thing that we should just do as kind humans who are thinking through stuff.” What’s something that’s often overlooked or undervalued or counterintuitive? What’s some stuff that people think they know or understand about this emotional intelligence stuff that, in your experience, you realize, “Hmm, au contraire, many folks are quite mistaken here.”

Vanessa Druskat
All right, two things I’ll say. One is that they think this is a fad. They just think it’s another one of these things. But there has been so much research done on it. We now have meta-analyses, many of them. So basically, that’s studies of hundreds of studies. That train left the station a while ago. This really does predict leader effectiveness. It does predict the performance of your employees.

Let me give you an example for that, and then I’ll come back and say more about what people don’t realize. One of the things that we don’t think a lot about is how much we demonstrate care and respect to the people who work for us. It turns out that something like 50% to 70% of people don’t feel respected by their bosses.

Now, I don’t think any boss goes in assuming that they want to be disrespected. They just don’t know how they come across. And so, that’s the kind of thing that will turn off motivation or will turn off your ability to think clearly. I don’t know whether or not your audience realizes it, but we are emotional beings and our emotion affects our ability to think clearly.

So, when we’re nervous, we simply, our cognition is not as strong as it could be when we’re feeling what we consider homeostatic. A little bit of nervousness is good. It sharpens our focus. But overwhelming nervousness just destroys our ability to think.

And so, if you’re the kind of leader who comes across as disrespectful or skeptical or many different negatives that can be taken, any behavior, any nonverbal behaviors that you send to your workers can be construed in ways that reduce, not only reduce their ability to think and work well, but that turn off their motivation.

So, we’re more motivated when we feel we’re part of the picture, when we’re cared about, when we think we add value, when we know. One of my doctoral students, I write about this in my new book, The Emotionally Intelligent Team. One of my doctoral students did a study on which leaders sort of jumped on board to a huge organizational change that she was studying.

And she thought it’s going to be personality, it’s going to be all kinds of things. She was in the organization for a full year while they were going through the change, and so she did a whole bunch of data collection up front and then looked at who jumped on the change, what ended up happening. And the one question that threw out every other piece of data she collected was, “Do I feel respected and valued by my boss?”

And those who did, jumped on the change. They were more amenable to the change. They helped their leaders roll out the change. If you felt like you were replaceable, in the eyes of your boss, you were much more reticent about it. You were more defensive about the change. So, those little behaviors have huge consequences.

And so, coming back to your original question, which is, “What do people not know about emotional intelligence?” I think the people who don’t understand, haven’t bothered to look at it, don’t recognize that humans are emotional beings. There is so much neuroscience out there now. Neuroscientists are saying, “Look, we’ve got so much data. We have to change the way we operate in organizations.”

It’s crazy to go along and operate as usual because so much of the way people behave depends on their emotions, how they feel about being in the environment that they’re in. And so, you can’t just treat people as if they’re objects. You’re going to have motivation problems and you can do it for a while.

It’s kind of like the cheapest way to build a team is to have an enemy, going into battle, “We got an enemy. We got to beat them. Everybody’s going to.” The esprit de corps automatically comes. We’re wired that way. But you can’t do that more than once in a while. The tight deadline will motivate, but you burn people out, and that’s not your everyday motivation.

Everyday motivation comes from emotion. There’s no motivation without emotion. And it can be fear, or it can be a sense of belonging and a sense of social worth and contribution, which is what everybody wants. We get a high. We literally get a dopamine hit in our brains when we feel cared about and part of something, where people include us and value us. And it’s not that hard to create that if you know what you’re doing.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, so much good stuff. Now when you say in the research associated with change management, one question threw out everything, by that language, do you mean this one question was so predictive that all of the others were kind of inconsequential to consider?

Vanessa Druskat
Yes, everybody focuses on personality. Everybody wants to focus on personality. And I got to tell you, personality is not a great predictor of behavior in complex situations. People have said that for decades. We just like it. It sounds so clear. It’s intuitive, you know?

Personality is very easy to study. It’s very easy to blame. There are many other things that are harder to study, emotional intelligence being one of them.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so feeling respected and valued, is the top and, apparently, most people don’t feel this. Could you share, like, what are some of the best practices or worst practices that are common? Because, in a way, it doesn’t seem like it should be that hard to respect and value people such that they are feeling respected and valued.

And yet, apparently most managers aren’t getting it done right now. So, what do you see are the top behaviors that you think folks need to start doing because they’ve overlooked it or stop doing, because they don’t realize how damaging it is?

Vanessa Druskat
Well, there’s two things I want to say there. One is I think that leaders need to start working on their emotional intelligence. When I look at what it requires to send those messages of respect and value, it often requires managing your own emotions, managing the point that you don’t feel respected.

So, what happens is that there’s a cascading effect that goes on in organizations. And we’ve long known that a lot of managers, a lot of leaders are kind of stuck in the middle, where they’re not getting the love, if you will, just call it love, from people above them. And yet they have to turn around and pass it on below. So that’s not easy.

And so, it really has to start at the top. But if it doesn’t, you don’t have to pass that kind of negativity down. And, in fact, when you do, your team won’t work as well as it could. And that really requires recognition, understanding, understanding self-awareness or yourself. So, for example, back to this idea of me being empathetic. I really fundamentally think it’s one of my biggest skills.

Well, I periodically do these EI assessments just because I use them so often. I want to know how I’m coming across. There was one point at which my colleagues all rated me about as low as you can get in empathy. And I thought, “What’s going on there?” And the reason was that I was so busy, I was running past them in the hallways. I was cutting off conversations. I wasn’t being my best self. And I had it in me. I just wasn’t demonstrating it. And I didn’t realize.

So, again, sometimes you don’t know how you come across. Leaders are often the last ones to know how they come across. And so those assessments can be really useful. But moving the conversation towards what my area of expertise is and what I wrote the book about, which is, “How do you build this into a team?”

Because what we don’t do well is teach leaders how to build good teams. And teams, what matters in teams is how team members interact with one another. Teamwork is not about how the leader interacts with each individual or each individual’s interpersonal skills that they never get to use in the team. Teamwork is about how we help our team members to interact with one another.

And because teams are really interactions, and as I mentioned earlier, they’re hotbeds of emotion because there are so many interactions, and so what you want to have in a team, what you want to build in a team, are expectations, routines, norms that helps team members interact effectively with one another.

So, just simply, do your team members listen to one another? Okay, probably not. The average team members, they don’t. They’re thinking about what they’re going to say. They’re not thinking about what the other person says because they’re trying to impress. They’re trying to compete. So that’s a norm. A norm is that when you make comments, you’re trying to impress others. You’re not really trying to add on to what others are saying.

And so, what you need to do is change the norms, change the routines, build an environment where the expectations that people have for one another are about listening, caring, building on one another’s ideas. And when you don’t do that, you get called out.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell us, how does one build that environment?

Vanessa Druskat
Yeah. Well, the first thing you got to do is you got to take a look at the norms that define how people interact in your team. So, every team has norms. And so, what are norms? Norms are, they’re our perceptions of how we’re supposed to act in this environment. So, every time we go into a new environment, we analyze what’s going on, we look at the people with status, and we figure out how things work around here.

And so, every environment, every team, differs a little bit. And so, what I’ve tried to figure out is, “What’s in the environment of those teams that are doing really well, that are surpassing their goals and performing at the top?”

And I tried to define those norms. Well, I haven’t tried. That’s what I’ve done. My colleagues and I have done that. And we’ve come up with this model of specific norms that build that environment. And so, I can lay out what those norms are for you. But the idea here is that you change expectations about how you’re supposed to behave.

And we usually don’t think about the norms, but behavior is not random. We always look to others. And so, what you want to have is not a team where everybody listens to the boss and everyone listens to the people they think are the smartest or the ones with the most social power in the room. But you want to have a team where everyone contributes and you’re not wasting talent in the room.

Because we know, we know, and we’ve known this for decades, that the more participation you have, the better your team’s performance. We’ve also known that you don’t have to have stars. You don’t have to have geniuses in your team. And, in fact, if you have a team of geniuses and stars and top performers, they won’t perform as well as a mediocre group that has norms that use the talent in the room.

Because, think about it, the stars are often each trying to show who’s smarter. And again, back to what I said earlier, they’re not building on one another’s ideas. They’re not listening. They’re not integrating. And that’s where teamwork really happens. That’s where we solve the complex problems. Every worthwhile innovation in the history of humankind has been developed by a team of people working together well.

People like to think that it’s Steve Jobs who developed the iPhone. No. Maybe you’ve heard the stories, but he didn’t want the iPhone. His team had to convince him. He used to take the iPhone and throw it against the wall when everybody, or the phones that people would give him. He always relied on his teams.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, let’s hear a few of these norms that make all the difference.

Vanessa Druskat
Sure. So, we have collapsed them into three different categories or buckets. The first one is about what we talked about earlier. And that’s really a focus on the individual and about getting to know people, building a sense of belonging and respect in the team, and building enough belonging that you can give one another feedback and people will take it. So, if people feel cared about, they’ll take feedback.

So, that’s the first cluster. And we consider that as just your launching pad. Because we’ve always known, and again we’ve known this for decades, that if you don’t take care of the individual, the individual is not engaged, and that’s especially true in a team. If you’re just doing your individual work, it’s fine. But if you’re supposed to share your information with others and build on their ideas, then you really need to feel part of that whole. So that’s the first cluster.

The second cluster, we call it, “How we learn and advance together.” And there are four norms in this cluster that get the team meeting together and talking about what’s working well, what needs to be changed, what’s coming down the pike, what are some things that the team needs to be looking out for. So, basically, being more proactive about changes and also being hopeful.

So, we talk about that as being allowing in the pessimism and also allowing in the optimism. Not toxic optimism, but really thinking about, “What are we doing we’re doing well? We want to keep doing that.” And, anyway, allowing all voices, you create a shared mental model for how we’re moving forward. There are no dumb questions. Everyone’s voice is included.

By the way, this is, again, what we see in the top performing team. So, I’m not making this up. These are all norms that we see over and over again. They get in the room together and anything goes and they’re pretty efficient with it. If you do this as a routine, if you do these things routinely, you’re not wasting a lot of time.

The third cluster of norms, there’s only two in that cluster, those are about reaching outside to your stakeholders. So, again, the highest performing teams have a sense of humility about their level of knowledge or what they know. And they recognize that there are people outside that can help them think more proactively, think about what’s coming down the pike, and also just think more innovatively.

And so, they reach out to stakeholders, they’ll invite their boss’s boss into a Zoom meeting or whatever, or Teams meeting, just for a 10-minute Q&A about, “How’s our work? How’s it affecting you? What’s keeping you up at night so we can link into that and know what’s coming down? What do you think we need to know right now?”

You bring that in, it changes that conversation that happens in the middle bucket. So, anyway, they reach out and bring people in, experts, and things like that. So those are the three buckets. Care for your individuals, make sure you’re aligned and you’re constantly assessing and anticipating what’s coming down. And everyone is involved.

And I want to say, I mentioned earlier the sense of respect and belonging that’s in that first bucket, but if you’re not included in these conversations about the future, you know you don’t really belong. It’s a fleeting kind of thing. And so, you really want to bring everybody into that. And then, finally, reaching out.

So, anyway, those are the three buckets of norms. We’ve taken them out on the road. We’ve helped leaders build them and improve their team performance, better decisions, more market share in their area, and things like that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, could we zoom in on two specific norms and maybe let’s pick some norms that are extra transformative and extra easy to pull off and yet somewhat uncommon?

Vanessa Druskat
Sure. All right, I’m going to pick two, one in the first cluster it seems nobody ever wants to make time for, and then one in the second cluster, which is about aligning and learning together. The first cluster, the number one norm in the model is what we call “Understand team members,” understand your team members.

And so, this norm is about getting to know one another, “Who are you? What do you care about? How do you analyze problems? What are your skills? What are your weaknesses?” Personality surveys can help with that, but that’s just one of many things. What you need to do is you need to know how to pass information to one another.

You need to know how to speak to one another, “What does that person care about? What keeps them up at night? What are they excited about? What’s their busy season?” Let me give you a couple examples. I had a team that I worked with where one member, a team member said to the others, “You know, I don’t answer the phone.” And they were like, “What? Who doesn’t answer their phone?”

This is, by the way, a multicultural team, and so they were in many different locations, very high level, and it was a leadership team. And everybody in the team thought that the person was just a jerk. We stereotype people. And for one reason or another, the person just, who was an introvert and didn’t like talking on the phone.

So, anyway, we started peeling the layer of who that person was, and it enabled people to interact with him more fully. And guess what? He started sharing more information with them. And information is gold in a lot of organizations. And when everyone, we started peeling those onions of who we are, what we know, and what’s on your mind right now, I can say, “Well, Pete, if that’s on your mind, I got some ideas for you. That’s what’s worked in my division. This may work in your division.”

And so, when you peel the onion of who people are, it does a few things. A, you can’t belong if you don’t feel known and understood. And, B, it brings you more into the conversation. And, by the way, I mentioned Steve Jobs a while ago. He had a coach that coached his teams. And one of the number one thing that coach did was get people in the room talking about what he called trip reports, “What happened to you over the last week? Where were you? What did you notice? What did you see?”

And his motive was to help one another understand what was on this person’s mind, and to learn more about one another so that they could work together more effectively and they could feel more connected. So, anyway, that’s a norm. Nobody wants to waste the time to get to know one another, but I got to tell you, I’ve never seen a high-performing team where members don’t know one another.

Especially when the teams are remote or hybrid or dispersed in any way, there’s a psychological distance that people feel. And a lot of team members feel like they’re the only one who isn’t known, or, “Everybody else knows one another, just not me.” And that’s a recipe for disaster. So, anyway, let me stop there. That’s one norm. Do you want to ask any more about that, or I’ll move to the second one?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I guess I want to know then, when it comes to understanding team members, what are some of the behaviors, practices, the things teams do regularly that facilitates that?

Vanessa Druskat
Yes. Great question. The most obvious one that a lot of teams do and that really does work is something called check-ins at start of meetings.

Pete Mockaitis
We were just talking about check-ins at great depth with Bree Groff, and about how great they are.

Vanessa Druskat
Oh, cool. I’m glad. Bree, I know Bree. I’m glad that she talked about check-ins. Maybe a difference between what I would say, because I know her emphasis is on enjoying the workplace. What I would say is the questions need to be good ones. A lot of the teams that I work with, people don’t want to talk about their personal lives. But they will talk about, “What’s on your mind? What are you excited about? What are you nervous about right now? What are the biggest challenges you’re having?”

You have to cap these check-ins with 30 seconds each or something. But you can get a sense of what’s going on in a person’s life and how you can work together. You don’t feel so alone when you find out others in your team are having challenges like you. It’s a brilliant way of building a more supportive environment in the team.

Pete Mockaitis
So, in practice then, that might just be asking that question, “What are you excited about? What are you worried about?” And just going around each person at the beginning of a meeting or something like that?

Vanessa Druskat
Yes. And as I mentioned in the book, I wouldn’t start with that if it’s the first time you’re doing it. I might start with an easier question, you know, “What was the best job you’ve ever had? Where did you work before this?” you know, little things. And then I would get deeper. But you know what I advise leaders to do is to pass those questions off to team members.

So, put somebody in charge for a month in the check-in questions. And help them realize that they need to start light, but you can get deeper as you go. The other thing is to find out whether or not anyone in the team wants to talk about their personal lives. There’s a lot of teams where people just don’t want to, they just want to have a clear demarcation between, you know, what’s going on with their kids or their partner and what goes on in the workplace. So, anyway, that’s that.

Another, one of my favorite ones, let me just say this, because this can be even, take you even to deeper levels of understanding, something I like to call a gallery walk. And this is where whoever’s in charge of the questions gives everyone a flipchart paper, if you’re meeting face to face. I’ll tell you how to do it if you’re not in a minute. And then you answer a bunch of questions.

So, “What does this team need to know about you?” or, “What do you like most? What do you like least about this team? What do think we need to change? What’s working well? What do you think is working well?” Or, “What was the best team experience you ever had? What were the ingredients in it that you want to replicate in this team?” you know, little things like that that can teach you.

You can also do it with pictures. So, I’ve had team members bring in pictures of their old rugby team or pictures of them skiing with their, of course I lean towards sports because I love sports, but skiing with their family and the camaraderie they felt on that holiday. But, anyway, and you put it up on the wall and people walk around and read one another’s and they can comment on it, and it’s over with pretty quickly.

You can do that virtually by just having everyone bring in a PowerPoint slide and you get 30 seconds to read off your PowerPoint slide, your answers. And it’s a powerful way of getting a lot of information pretty quickly. I am constantly trying to get to the point where I know you well enough to give you feedback. And I care about you. I’m no longer stereotyping you. Because I really believe that giving one another feedback is important in teams. I’ve seen it work so well.

If you can build that level of respect and knowledge of one another, there’s different ways to give feedback. Some people want to hear it, boom, like that. They need to or they won’t listen to it. Some people want it very gentle. And so, caring about how you give the feedback allows the feedback to get heard. And I think, again, this individual cluster of norms, we call it how we help one another succeed.

Okay. So, the second norm is one that we call proactive problem solving, and team members love this. And leaders don’t often involve their teams in thinking about, you know, “What are we missing? What are the opportunities we’re missing? And what’s getting in the way of our success?” One of the things I use, which many of your audience members will probably know a lot about, is a SWOT analysis.

So many team members are anxious about what’s being missed. I mean, as a team member myself, there are so many things I know that I never have the opportunity to share because we just never have those conversations. No one said to me, “What are the threats that you see, Vanessa? And let’s talk about it and let’s prioritize those threats. Yes, what you care about Vanessa is important, but it feeds into something that’s even more important right now.”

And that aligns me. That helps me feel in control. We all have a need. This is one of our fundamental core needs. Belonging, by the way, is the most fundamental core need we have. Social neuroscientists will tell you that, psychologists who study it have long known that. We’ve evolved to need to not be rejected, but to be included, which is what belonging is.

But we need to feel a sense of control as well. That’s another core need. And you help me feel more in control when I’m able to have those conversations in the team. So that’s the other norm that’s often, those are two really key norms.

And then just a third one that I would focus on. You didn’t ask for a third, but would be this norm that we call “Understand Team Context,” which is about understanding what’s going on in the broader organization that we need to know about, or in the client’s world that we need to know about. It helps you be more proactive, and it helps you be more successful as a team.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so then, earlier, you also talked about listening and how we’re not doing it right. And if that’s the case, we’re called out on it. Can you share, how can we tell if poor listening is happening and how do we call out as best practice?

Vanessa Druskat
Great question. Well, it’s the norm, and it becomes the norm in the team. So, are we building on one another’s ideas? Are we writing down? What I love to do when I lead a team discussion, I write down everyone’s ideas. And I’ll come back to, “What do we think about what Pete said, what Vanessa said?” And I just make sure that everybody’s ideas are heard and entertained.

We know about listening with nonverbals. So, for example, I talked to a colleague recently who served in a team where the team leader would take notes on what people were saying on her computer. And whenever my colleague started talking, she’d stop taking notes, those ideas. So where does your brain go with that?

We have a hyper, hyper, hyper – I can’t underline this enough – sensitivity to whether we’re being heard and valued. This is linked to our core need to belong. Back in the day if you were ever kicked out of the tribe, you were dead.

And so, we have evolved to have an emotional brain that is really sensitive to reading the nonverbals of others and knowing whether our ideas and things are valued or not. And so, we look, we look around, and we notice, “Are people checking their email while I’m talking? Are they looking at me?” Eye contact. Now, we’ve got a lot of focus on neurodivergence these days around how people, whether or not they want to receive eye contact.

But, in general, the research basically says that when you make eye contact with me, it tells me that I’m accepted by you. It’s really powerful, even more powerful when it’s online. When you’re meeting electronically, when a person feels like the leader’s looking them in the eye when they’re talking, they feel a greater sense of acceptance and belonging and validation.

And so, it’s more than the eye contact, it’s the attention. Attention is a gift. So let me just make this practical for you. I had a team of very masculine engineers who were, their team wasn’t doing well and their boss couldn’t let go.

But, anyway, they decided, in order to enact this norm of what we call caring behavior, which is demonstrating respect. We said to them, “How do you demonstrate respect?” And someone said, “Well, you nod your head while someone’s talking.” And so, anyway, they decided that they were going to nod their head and look people in the eye while they were talking.

The consequence was huge. People started sharing more information that they had not been sharing. They started giving more ideas, helping one another more. It’s a motivator. When people are listening to you, now you got to start cutting people off a little bit more, but the participation is more full. And one of the biggest, biggest costs of not having a good team environment is not having people share their best knowledge and information with one another, not supporting and building on one another’s ideas.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Now we had a guest, and he said it just so clearly and simply, it’s that, people see stuff that’s dumb all the time. And if you don’t have an indication that you have any interest in hearing about it, you just won’t hear about it. And so, the dumb stuff will continue. And that is rampant in organizations everywhere.

Vanessa Druskat
Yes. Yes, absolutely. And so that’s why that middle bucket of norms matters so much, which is talking about what’s working and not working. And it’s why the first bucket matters, because the first bucket checks the box on belonging. Typically, we try to belong by conforming. We don’t want conformity. We don’t want people just saying, “Yeah, yeah, that’s how we do it. We do dumb things here.”

We want people to able to raise the truth in that middle bucket, right? People always ask me about the teams I’ve observed, and I got to tell you, the difference between the way the outstanding teams perform and the way your average team performs is stark.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, the way the performance difference is stark, and then just the way they conduct themselves in terms of a meeting is stark. Like, one might be shaking, nodding their heads and saying, “Mm-hmm,” and the others are just, like, dead in the eyes.

Vanessa Druskat
Yes, they’re thinking about the next, or they’re competing with one another, which, the higher you get in the hierarchy, the more you get into these. Because who goes higher in the hierarchy? Highly competitive people, which is great. You don’t want to squish that competition. I mean, that can be useful in a lot of cases, but there are times when you don’t want it. There are times when you want collaboration, and that’s how the organization gets ahead.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now let’s hear about some of your favorite things. Could you share your favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Vanessa Druskat
So, there’s a guy, Robert Sapolsky, who’s at Stanford. He’s a neuroscientist and a sociobiologist and does all kinds of things. He’s a MacArthur Genius Grant person.

And someone asked him, “Well, are human beings altruistic or are we selfish by nature?” And he said, “We are neither. It’s all about context. In some contexts, we’re selfish. In some contexts, we’re altruistic and pro-social.” And so, his quote was, “Context, context, context.” And I love that quote because it reminds people that building a team is about building a context. That’s one of my favorites.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Vanessa Druskat
A favorite study is a great study that looks at how good human beings are, how good we are at talking without really saying anything. So, when we’re in a team meeting, how we know just the right amount to say and how to say it to make it look like we are really in and to really not really be sharing our best information, our best ideas. We’ve learned that throughout our lives. And if you’re not careful, that’s what your team members do.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Vanessa Druskat
I think everyone should read Matthew Lieberman’s book Social.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job.

Vanessa Druskat
The Stakeholder Analysis Worksheet. So, this is basically a worksheet some colleagues of mine developed that, basically, where you list your stakeholders, who’s got information and ideas that could help you perform better as a team.

And so, you list all of them and you list how well do you know them. And then you list who’s going to be the ambassador to that person, and go out and connect with them and find out what they know and bring it back to the team. I just love that tool. It’s so clear, it’s so easy to do, and it has huge impact.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Vanessa Druskat
Question asking, and follow up questions. So, I just feel like we, in conversations in teams or elsewhere, we talk too much about ourselves and we don’t ask people enough questions and dig. People are fascinating. We can learn so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share or a Vanessa-original quotation that people mention over and over again?

Vanessa Druskat
Well, the biggest one would be that you don’t build high-performing teams by hiring stars. That you build them by shaping social norms that bring out the best in everyone and that use the talent in the team.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Vanessa Druskat
I’d point them to my website first, so VanessaDruskat.com. I’ve got resources and information on there. And then I’d also point them to my LinkedIn account. I do a lot of posting on LinkedIn these days. And it’s just, again, Vanessa Druskat. You can find me there quite easily.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Vanessa Druskat
Assess your team norms. Find out if they’re working well. Find out what’s working and what’s not working. You can change them quite easily. And it’s not hard. It’s easier to change team norms than it is to change people. A lot of bad behavior is the result of bad team norms.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Vanessa, thank you.

Vanessa Druskat
Thank you, Pete. It’s been really a pleasure to talk with you. I appreciate you having me on and your excellent questions.

Aug 25
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1087: How Neurodivergent Professionals Thrive at Work with Shea Belsky

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Shea Belsky shares his top do’s and don’ts for managing neurodiversity in the workplace.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why neurodivergency is unavoidable at work
  2. The unique strengths and struggles of autistic people
  3. When and how to discuss neurodiversity at work

About Shea

Shea Belsky is an autistic self-advocate. He is a Tech Lead II at HubSpot, and the former Chief Technology Officer of Mentra. Having been the manager of neurodivergent & neurotypical employees, he brings many unique perspectives on neurodiversity in the workplace. Shea has championed neurodiversity for organizations like Novartis, the Kennedy Krieger Institute, Northeastern University, in addition to being featured in Forbes and the New York Post.

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, Sponsors!

Shea Belsky Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Shea, welcome!

Shea Belsky
Pete, thanks so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here and I’ve been looking forward to this for a while. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, I’m excited. We are going to talk about neurodiversity today. That’s come up only a couple of times out of a thousand episodes, so it feels like doing it again is worthwhile from my perspective. But could I hear your perspective on making the case for why should your typical professional give a hoot about this topic?

Shea Belsky
The simplest reason is that you definitely work with neurodivergent people. And to set the record straight, neurodiversity includes people who are autistic, such as myself, people who have ADHD, dyslexia, anxiety, depression, OCD. There’s a very large umbrella that it covers that I’m not going to define every single thing. But the important thing to note is that the chances of you working with somebody who’s neurodivergent, loving someone, knowing someone who’s neurodivergent is 100%. You definitely do.

You might not know that they’re neurodivergent. They might not know that they’re neurodivergent, but you definitely do. And that alone should set the standard for why you should care, why you should give a hoot, as you so well put it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so if we are aware that someone is neurodivergent, or may be neurodivergent, how does that inform our general way of being, acting, behaving, interacting with such folks?

Shea Belsky
It depends a lot on what they need and who they are. Me, as an autistic person, I have my unique set of support needs. For me, that can be more sensory and social. We had a little chat about sarcasm before, where it went whoosh right over my head. And that’s me and my autism. But someone else who’s autistic, they may not struggle with that at all, but instead they may struggle with executive functioning. They might struggle more strongly with something that’s sensory.

So, to answer your question directly, it really varies based on the person, on an individual, and their own needs and what they need. That kind of relies on them knowing what they need and then also feeling comfortable asking their peers, asking their manager for what they need, which can sometimes vary based on a type of job, psychological safety, the circumstances of what their employment is. It really depends on the situation.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, could you tell us a tale of, in a workplace environment, someone who was oblivious about their neurodiverse colleagues around him or her, and what that person did to gain a more comprehensive perspective and how that made an impact?

Shea Belsky
Yeah, I can talk about a personal experience of mine. One of my first managers, coming out of college and me working as a junior software engineer at a big tech company, I had multiple different managers who all had varying degrees of awareness of autism. Some people had a loved one who was autistic, some knew about it, some had seen it on TV. And then I had a manager who knew nothing about it. They were completely unaware. And they recognized that them not being in the know was actually something they needed to fix.

And so, I started talking to them. This is like week one or week two of us being in this manager relationship. I’m talking about it and they’re like, “I need to stop you right here because I know this is important, but I don’t know anything about this. So, I want to go and do some homework on my end.” This is the manager talking, “I need to do some homework on my end as far as what I need to do as a manager to support you. And then I need you to come back and tell me with like specifics.”

Because up to that point in time, I had just been kind of saying, “Hey, Mr. or Mrs. Manager, I’m autistic,” end of sentence. I’m kind of leaving it up to them to figure it out. But because I was challenged to unpack the specifics, that actually made it really enlightening for me to figure out like, “Okay, what do I actually need in the workplace? What actually is making it harder for me to do my job and what makes it easy? And what do I need my manager to do to help advocate for me?”

And that whole interaction, fundamentally, changed how I approach the conversation as it did for them going forward.

Pete Mockaitis
That is super helpful. And as you mentioned that, there may be a label that we have and that might be accurate and helpful, but there could be many things underneath it, and your individual needs and implications can vary widely from person to person. So, well, tell me what did you, in this story, articulate are some of the needs or accommodations or adaptations or changes in behavior? And how did that improve the experience of working and collaborating?

Shea Belsky
Something that I noticed very early on was the type of workplace that I was in, most people are really direct communicators. Like, when they said something, they meant it, I didn’t have to read between the lines. And I realized that for some people, they might be a little bit more vague about what they were asking for, they might be a little bit less specific, might be sarcastic. When they were talking to me about it, they kind of expected me to kind of figure out what that all meant. And at the time, I struggled with that.

So, I said to my manager at the time, “Hey, like, as I am working to unpack what these people actually mean, I could use your help in kind of helping unpack that/asking these people alongside with me to be more direct when talking with me.” Because in that moment, it’s like one or two things can happen. Like, I could have asked them to be more direct or he could have asked on my behalf. We did a little bit of both where we both sat down with these people, and said, “Hey, like this is Shea’s communication style,” mentioning autism a little bit.

But we said, “Hey, this is Shea’s communication style. Going forward, if you have a very explicit and clear ask of Shea, can you please just be clear and explicit and not kind of beat around the bush? Because, otherwise, it’s a little bit tough for him to understand what you actually mean and it actually makes things more confusing for everybody.”

And as soon as we asked that out of the way, everything changed in a communication style. It really became easier for me. I didn’t have to, like, cut through this noise or fog. I could just say, like, “This person needs me to do a thing. I will do the thing, and make sure I follow up with anything else they didn’t ask me about, but just kind of going start to end in that front.” That’s one example, but that was the one that made the biggest difference at the time.

Pete Mockaitis
And what difference did that make?

Shea Belsky
It made it easier for me to do my job, because a part of that cognitive tax for me was trying to understand what am I being asked. As a software engineer, we have tickets, Jira tickets, GitHub issues, whatever software you use. And so, we’ll put stuff into a ticket to say, “This is what we have to do here. Here’s the story. Here’s these details. Here’s information from users. Here’s what we want to accomplish.” And so, that’s a very clear, easy in and out thing, “I want this thing to be done kind of like a recipe.”

But sometimes if you talk to people in person, there’s less structure. And so, I needed to be able to manage a little bit less structure, but not a complete absence of it. So, in this mode, where it’s like two people talking with each other, and then I have to go make a ticket based on this conversation, I needed to have enough information to put into the ticket.

And the effect that this whole conversation had was making it easier for me to understand what goes into the ticket, what goes into this work, and not have to like overthink or overanalyze this, but make it very clear, “This is the information that I need to work off of.” And then the more and more that I work with these people, I learned their communication styles as well. I learned when they mean this, they also mean these are the other things. I can learn other parts about the systems we’re working with.

And so, over time, I can gradually start to do more with less, but at that moment, I needed a lot to work with to do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. So, just very basically being able to do the things that people need doing, but fundamentally. All right.

Shea Belsky
Exactly. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s dig deeper into autism, specifically. I’m thinking, on the show, when you talk neurodivergent, we had Skye Waterson talk about ADHD stuff. We had Kate Griggs talking about dyslexia stuff. We had Richard Newman, mention autism as being a surprise strength as he was learning about body language things, because he had to get very explicit about this body language means this. And that was, in a way, an asset, giving him a fresh lens, a new perspective.

Shea Belsky
Oh, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And being able to teach the stuff super effectively and in a novel way. So, give us the rundown, when it comes to autism in the workplace, well, I guess, we’ll start with the 101, the basics. What is autism? And how is an autistic brain different than a neurotypical brain?

Shea Belsky
The sentence has a lot of meaning, so I’ll try to cut to the short version, but an autistic individual can struggle with a lot of different things and have different strengths on top of that. The common things about autism, not saying that everybody has these traits, but commonly includes struggles with social situations, sensory situations, sometimes executive functioning, sometimes motor control, and sometimes like a spatial or social awareness.

And again, not everybody struggles with all of those things, but that I would say are common things that a lot of autistic people experience. On top of that, we have a lot of strengths and talents that can come across because maybe our senses are more keenly attuned to certain things, like pattern recognition, detail, ability to focus, ability to drill into something. There are a lot of strengths that come out of autistic people, with the caveat being that we sometimes have support needs and accommodations that we need in the workplace to actually get there.

Something that I actually take a little bit of issue with is people only characterizing autism as a superpower, because for a lot of people that is not the case where it can be problematic for them. They manage it with therapy, with medicine, with other sorts of masking in the workplace. And for other people they can manage and then they can unlock a lot of their talent, and other people exist somewhere in the middle.

So, the important thing to note is that a lot of autistic people have a lot of strengths and support needs. But in order to get the most out of autistic people, we have to acknowledge and support them with whatever their needs are.

Pete Mockaitis
And in my minimal beginner understanding is that the brains of autistic people are, in fact, structurally different than the brains of neurotypical people. Can you tell me what’s different?

Shea Belsky
This is a biological underlying difference. And that comes down to genetics. Like, my brain is fundamentally different. How I perceive information, how I perceive my surroundings at a fundamental level, like how my brain, how my nerves operate is just different. And again, that difference can be very different from one autistic person to the next. Like, my taste buds are kind of weird. I don’t eat all the same foods everybody else does. My senses are different. Like, the way that I perceive light and sound and touch is very different from other people.

So, at a fundamental level, the way that I take in information and perceive it is kind of like a different operating system, if you want to think about it that way than it is for other people. Not that it’s like, it’s not like Mac versus Windows, but it’s like one version of Windows versus another version of Windows.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, do we know, roughly, what percentage of people have autism, in the US, for example?

Shea Belsky
The number changes pretty frequently, but at the last time that I checked, I believe that it was one in every 37 people in the US who were autistic. It’s pretty high. It’s like the chances that you know at least one autistic person is pretty high.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And can you, like, bring us into your world a little bit? Sound, light, touch, process differently. How so?

Shea Belsky
For instance, it’s interesting because people think that because of the sounds that I don’t like concerts, I’m actually a really big, like, pop punk rock fan. And I love those sorts of concerts. I wear earbuds to manage the sound because, otherwise, I blow out my eardrums on a physical level as everybody does. But if it’s too overwhelming, I will, like, physically feel that energy draining as I have to process the sound.

And, typically, like at a concert, one source of sound is not a problem. If it’s like a couple of big speakers all doing the same thing, great. But if I’m in an environment where there’s, like, 20 or 30 different senses of sound, you mentioned the brain difference, my brain has a really hard time being able to manage the different sounds coming into my brain and being able to say like, “Okay, this person is talking with me. I’m going to prioritize their sound. This person is not talking to me. I’m going to tune them out.”

My brain really has a hard time telling the difference between that, and that treats every conversation around me as though they’re talking to me, even if they’re not. And so, there’s just more energy being used. It’s a tiring, exhausting process for me. So, if I am at a bar or a party or an event or some other sort of gathering where everybody’s talking around me, it is more physically draining on me.

I have very little control over that other than managing where I am in relation to that sound. For instance, like my wife and I discovered this. Like, if we go up back against the wall, like if we’re in an environment where I can go up and stand against a wall, there’s no more sound coming from behind me, so only in front of me. So, there’s less sound coming into my brain that I have to manage. And then I can focus on, “Okay, I can manage with, like, half the room of sound, but not like a full 360 degrees worth of sound,” for example.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Intriguing. And so now, it’s funny, I’ve been told a couple times that I could be on the spectrum. And the piece of it that resonates the most is I understand that people with autism can have a special area of interest that they just study the bejesus out of. And it might be one thing for a long period of time. It might be kind of alternating from season to season.

And in the TV series, “Atypical” on Netflix, which is kind of fun, our main character with autism had a deep interest in Antarctica, Shackleton and penguins. That was his thing. He knew all about it and the insides and out of it. So, can you speak about this phenomenon?

Shea Belsky
My special interest is absolutely Dungeons & Dragons at the moment, I want to say. I am playing later today. And everybody’s special interest varies as well. And how that special interest comes across is also pretty different from each individual.

For me, it’s like a fixture of my schedule. I make time for it. It’s like every other Thursday for me. But how this special interest comes across is very different for other people.

And to your point, like, sometimes I can get really passionately interested in a topic and then completely lose interest and walk away from it. That was me in, like, Pokemon Go, honestly. I played Pokemon Go for a couple years, and then one day I just lost interest and I moved on to something else.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. All right. Understood. And when you talk about superpowers, in some ways, having a deep interest in a thing that no one else has as much interest in can be a superpower because you can develop a specialized knowledge and expert status on a matter that dwarfs others, and then becomes supremely valuable. It’s like, “Hey, well, we’ve got a subject matter expert on acoustics,” or Dungeons & Dragons, Pokemon Go, whatever the thing may be.

And so, that can be incredibly valuable for a team to have access to that deep expertise. Tell us more about the so-called superpowers.

Shea Belsky
It’s an interesting balance because, especially in the workplace, you are right, you can have those subject matter experts, those people who are exceptionally talented or knowledgeable or passionate about a topic or topics or certain technologies, certain practices, whatever it is. And the way that autistic people really work is absolutely in that area of special interest, they can just go 100 miles an hour on that subject. But maybe those individuals need some support in the workplace to get that done.

It might be a situation where, on a Zoom call, for instance, or Teams, or whatever we use, Google Meet, they might not have their video on all the time. Maybe they’re looking away from the camera every once in a while. Maybe they have a fidget device in their hands. Like, the way that they need to help self-regulate and manage can really vary from person to person.

In my case, I actually have a “working with me” document in my workplace, which kind of describes to people, it kind of gives them like a one-pager on me being autistic. It’s more pages than that, but I have one page just on, “I am autistic. Here’s what you should know about that working with me.” And I talk about eye contact, I talk about flexible hours, camera. If I’m in the office, I got big headphones on. I kind of lay it out for people so they know what to expect.

And it makes it easy for them to kind of match my working style to unlock those superpowers, to really unlock those talents, because without that level of support, I am not able to do my job as well. If I had to not wear headphones in a busy, loud office environment, I would say I work half as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you know, we actually had a recent guest who said creating a user manual is just a great practice, in general, for individuals and teams getting together and seeing how we work best and under what circumstances. And so, in the case of autism specifically, that sounds phenomenal.

I’m also thinking about, because the first time someone mentioned they thought I was on the spectrum, my immediate reaction was, “But I don’t have any cool superpowers like Rain Man. I tried to learn counting cards once and I was terrible at it.” So, what’s like the Rain Man stuff?Apparently, he’s autistic and, thusly, he could count cards. And what’s that connection about?

Shea Belsky
That’s an exceptional form of a specific talent, which has a specific use case. In their case, they could recognize patterns, they could track things with their eyes. They had this innate talent of being able to see patterns where neurotypical people could not, and then leverage that to an advantage. And that comes up in the workplace all the time, like recognizing patterns, seeing things over and over and over.

For instance, in my case, in software engineering, it could be like, “Oh, I’ve seen this error come up a couple of times. And when this error comes up, it’s because this other thing has happened. Maybe we know why this is happening, let’s go off and fix it.” And that’s just something that I can look at over time. And maybe other people may not have the same level of attention to detail or patience.

Not that they could not do those things, but it comes easier to me to see those trends and perceive them and then translate that to, “What can I do about it? What am I able to do about it? Should I tell someone about this?” In my current role as a tech lead, I’m pretty empowered to go off and do stuff about these things when I see them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s hear some more great practices in terms of, if we are autistic or have another neurodivergent feature, or there are others on our teams that are, what are some of the top dos and don’ts you really recommend?

Shea Belsky
The number one thing that I say to autistic people is really reflecting onto yourself, to ask yourself, “What do you need? What are your must-haves, deal breakers?” Because my deal breaker is headphones and flexibility and camera and eye contact. Those are things that if I don’t have to constantly manage them, if they’re taken away from me, basically, I would say that I work half as well or worse because that’s just what I need to do my job.

And for other people, like they may be different things. They might be fine without the headphones or video, camera video or eye contact or whatever, but they may need something else. They may need a quiet room or a sensory room. They may need to be able to, like, take walking meetings. They may need an AI meeting notetaker, which is pretty common ubiquitous these days, but you still have to have permission sometimes.

There’s lots of different ways in which that comes up. And I’m not going to sit here forever and talk about all of them. The point is, what do you need? What do you need? What do you want? And being able to articulate them, jot them down, talk about them with your manager and with your team is going to set you up for the most amount of success.

And then if you are the manager, teammate on the receiving end of this, you should feel empowered and trusted that they want to talk to you about this, and then be able to actually go ahead and do something about it. Because you are a team. Like, if you don’t get there together, you don’t get there at all.

And the most important thing about that is being able to recognize that, if this individual needs something to do their job, that it should behoove the manager and the team to want to get that behind them to make this happen, whether it’s something that’s easy and straightforward, whether it needs some sort of work or permissions or approvals, but it should behoove the team to want to get behind people who need help and support no matter what it is, whether that’s flexibility or a physical thing or digital thing, just knowing that we’re all in this together.

Pete Mockaitis
What are some telltale signs that someone we’re working with may, indeed, have autism, ADHD, dyslexia that might make us say, “Ah, perhaps I should have a conversation about this matter”? Or, is that taboo, like, it’s not ideal for someone to suggest, “Oh, it looks like you might have ADHD.” It’s like, “Well, hey, buddy, that’s none of your business, my health matters.”

So, how do you think about that in terms of identifying who might have a need and how to have that conversation respectfully, but not intrusively? Just how do I navigate that whole world?

Shea Belsky
It’s a spicy question, it’s a good question, because, honestly, everyone’s neurodiversity is a personal topic. Some people talk about it a lot. I’ve talked about it pretty frequently, but I would say I’m on the rarer side of people who are very open about it, who are willing to talk about it. Different people have different levels of comfort for what they will and won’t say.

And as far as having a conversation around it, that is typically initiated by that neurodivergent person when they feel comfortable, when they feel like there’s emotional safety, psychological safety. So, to kind of answer your first question, it’s a matter of creating a psychological safety where people can speak up if they’re finding something is wrong about the team, they have a process improvement.

If you can make a change to make things more inclusive, regardless of how somebody’s brain operates, that can kind of lead somebody to be more motivated to disclose. But the idea of self-disclosure is a pretty personal topic. Some people have trauma from having disclosed in the past and being ridiculed or shamed for it or, worse, been fired for it. So not everybody is going to be as open to talking about it as the next person.

But what you can do, if you suspect somebody’s neurodivergent, I would not go up to them and ask them about it unless they already have or have talked about it in the past. Like, if they put it in Slack or talk to you or your team about it, that’s open territory. But if you don’t know that but you suspect it, then you can at least initiate creating the psychological safety, having retrospectives, suggesting process improvements, working with your manager to make sure that people feel welcome and respected and that opinions are heard regardless of where they’re coming from. That helps initiate the likelihood that somebody will self-disclose. Doesn’t guarantee it, but it makes it more likely.

Pete Mockaitis
That makes a lot of sense. And you could talk about accommodations, adaptations, etc., without using any labels whatsoever.

Shea Belsky
Of course.

Pete Mockaitis
Like, “I noticed in a few meetings that, when a lot of people are talking at the same time, you appear agitated. Is that accurate?” And it’s like, “Well, yeah, actually that’s one of the things that gets me kind of feeling nervous.”

Shea Belsky
That can actually help people a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like, well, then you can have the chat without using the word autism.

Shea Belsky
Some people will have whole conversations like that without discussing neurodiversity. And some people may be kind of waiting for the opportunity to discuss it without ADHD or dyslexia or anxiety or OCD coming up. They may be afraid to put a label on it or may be afraid of how people perceive that label. And being able to talk about the effects that the neurodiversity has without addressing it can sometimes make it more comfortable for people.

Again, it’s really up to the individual, but that may be more beneficial for some than it is for others, especially for people if they don’t even know that they’re neurodivergent at all, which happens pretty frequently. People may have ADHD, un-diagnosed, and not have any idea whatsoever. And so, you may describe a situation, describe a person who is not able to manage their ADHD, then you have an improvement to the team.

Maybe you have a note taker, maybe you have an executive function and coach, or it’s like a thing that helps you manage focus time in your calendar. And that can be a solution to the issues you face with ADHD, without even knowing ADHD is involved at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. You said some folks have disclosed these matters and then been fired for it. My first thought was, “Is that even legal?” Is it even legal?

Shea Belsky
It’s not, technically.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s not technically legal.

Shea Belsky
But people find other reasons for firing somebody that are either adjacent to it or not, because they may be afraid or worried about it. I have not personally experienced this, but I directly know people who have either been ostracized for their neurodiversity, have been treated differently because of it, or have been, like, avoided it for promotions, they had responsibility taken away, or they have, in worst case scenarios, been fired for it.

And I think people are, like, we have conversations like this, like you and I were having right now, because people don’t know how to support neurodivergent people. Remember, in trying to learn, people kind of like shy away from it as like a hot potato, but it doesn’t have to be that way. It doesn’t have to be this big scary topic. I think people are just afraid of managing change, is honestly more what it comes down to.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, when you say that that’s not legal, is this under the Americans with Disabilities Act? Or what’s the relevant legislation?

Shea Belsky
I believe it’s the ADA, I could be wrong about that one, but I’m reasonably certain that it’s the ADA or Civil Rights Act, where you’re not allowed to discriminate employment on the basis of disability, which sounds more like it’s ADA, but I could be wrong about that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I don’t know, maybe this is a can of worms, but the word disability seems tricky in this context.

Because, as we said, hey, it’s different, and sometimes there’s superpowers, I don’t know. Well, you tell me, Shea, like, the word disability, it sounds like some people might say, “Yes, that’s appropriate.” And others would say, “Heck, no, this is not appropriate. And that’s offensive to even say so.” What’s the vibe in the community on this topic?

Shea Belsky
The answer is that it depends based on the person, on the individual. Like, you could be listening, looking, hearing me right now and not believe I have disability at all, but bring me to like The Burren in Somerville, Massachusetts, and that place gets really loud and, like, anxiety-inducing for me. And I have to bail out of there, after like 30 minutes. In that moment, I have disability.

But if I’m here talking with you on a podcast, no, I don’t have the appearance of having a disability. So, neurodiversity, the idea of it being disability varies greatly based on the individual, on what their needs are, on where it shows up, on what they need, on their strengths. It really varies based on the person.

If you are an autistic person who has higher support needs, maybe you lack the capacity to drive a car. Maybe you don’t have the ability to ride a bicycle. The disability is more pronounced and more obvious, but not every autistic person lacks that ability, not every person has that ability. So, it really varies based on the person.

There is a subset of the neurodiversity community who does not associate neurodiversity as being a disability because it really varies based on the person. If you ask somebody who is dyslexic about disability, they’d probably be more inclined to agree with you. But if you ask somebody who was ADHD or autistic, maybe not. It just really depends on the person.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I think that word is pretty emotionally charged and I hear what you’re saying. It could go either way, depending on who you’re talking to. The way I’ve thought about the word disability came from a speaker I volunteered with some years ago, Matt Glowacki, who didn’t have legs. He was born without legs.

And so, he’s just a really hilarious speaker who talks about these sorts of topics. And he simply defined disability as anything you got going on that makes it harder to do stuff. And in that definition, that seems not so personal, loaded, charged, emotional. And I was like, “Oh, well, I might think of a number of things I got going on with myself that would qualify under that definition.”

Shea Belsky
Think about it another way as well. If you are pushing a stroller, if you’re like pulling something in a carriage behind you, if you are like carrying a bicycle, for instance, and you have to go up a set of stairs or an escalator or anything that involves like a steep incline, you have a temporary disability that is based on where you are and the thing that you’re trying to do.

For me, it’s the same way. If I am at a business conference and I need to do some networking and I need to mask, if I need to manage sound, if I have to manage light. I went to a conference a few years ago, in a casino. That was extremely overwhelming for me for all the reasons you can probably imagine. And that was like 10-out-of-10 anxiety for me, but something that I had to do. And my disability was a little more obvious in that moment because I was really trying to manage. But if the same conference was in a quiet hotel ballroom, maybe the same thing wouldn’t have been true.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. You said the word mask, and it’s interesting. I was chatting with an AI, that was some months back about autism. And it just sort of dropped these words like I was supposed to know what they meant – masking and stimming, which I subsequently looked up. So, if anyone else is hearing these words, like, “What does that even mean?” Shea, can you lay it down on us? What do we mean by masking or stimming?

Shea Belsky
Masking is something where you, as an autistic person or ADHD or any form of neurodiversity, kind of act in a way that you think people are expecting you to act, whether it is what you say, how you behave, your body language, how you speak. It is kind of putting on a literal mask and altering your behavior based on the expectations of the situation that you’re in.

For instance, if you’re at a business conference and have to network with people, you need to shmooze, make small talk, warm up to people, all of which are things that I find very alien to me, that do not come naturally to me. That’s my brain. My brain does not think to ask someone, “How’s your kids? How’s your home project going?” And I have to kind of, like, remember to ask that, kind of checking off items from a list because it doesn’t come naturally to me. And then I ask them whatever I have to ask in this moment.

And so, that is a frustrating thing for me as something that I have to kind of almost robotically do when I’m in a situation where it’s necessary, versus when I’m at home or people I care about, I ask a little bit less. I don’t ask those robotic things unless there are people who I really actually intrinsically want to hear that information from, like my wife, “How was your work day? How’s your parents?” etc.

On the subject of stimming, that is really like a self-regulation thing. Stim is stimulating. So self-stimulating could be anything. So, for me, like my form of stimming can be a fidget device. Like, I play with this with my hands, typically out of sight and out of range of a microphone because I’ve been told it can be loud before.

That’s also a form of masking. Like, if it was up to me, I might hold the fidget thing right up in my face, and your editors would have a really hard time editing out the audio. So, I kind of keep it down below where it does not come up on the mic. I’m still stimming and stuff, it’s kind of just at my side. So, I still get the benefit of stimming and you don’t have to worry about editing the audio out later.

Pete Mockaitis
And this stimulation, the benefit of the stimming, what is the benefit? And can all of us have it? Or is that more so for folks who have autism?

Shea Belsky
It could be anybody. I would say that it is more pronounced and more beneficial to autistic people. Not every autistic person stims. I want to make that clear as well. Like, for some people, that form of stimming can be something that is autonomous or at the musculatory level where they don’t have a way of controlling it. It just happens.

For some people, you can think of it as like picking a scab and like feeling the release that it causes you. For people who maybe have less control over their body, stimming could be walking. It could be like hitting themselves for some situations. It could be biting things. There are lots of self-stim toys out there which help people manage it without causing harm to themselves or to other people.

And every autistic person stimming takes a different form. Some autistic people don’t have a stim at all. Some have lots of different ones. Some have ones that could be harmful. Some have ones that are very subtle. It depends greatly on the person.

Pete Mockaitis
And what does it do for you, the benefit of doing so?

Shea Belsky
To me, that is like a cognitive form of release and anxiety calming for me. When I am playing my fidget thing in my other hand, a fidget toy is where you describe it. There’s, like, fidget spinners, there’s those fidget cubes. Those are basically stim toys for everybody. I have, like, a whole bag full of fidget toys and gadgets at my desk at work, and I say, “If you ever want one of them, come take one.”

One of my favorite ones is a little, like, independent bubble wrap thing, where like it’s like a plastic bubble popper and you pop it and you flip it over, and you can just keep popping. My wife has one, she’s neurotypical, and she loves it. So, anybody can stim. You don’t have to be autistic to gain the joy out of it.

It can just do something to distract your hands if you’re like picking at your fingers, picking at a bug bite. It can just help calm you down. I can’t really describe how it feels, honestly, because again, everyone is different and the reasons for it really vary, but anybody can do it. It doesn’t have to be autistic people only.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Shea, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to say before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Shea Belsky
Everyone has their own kind of fidget device. So, for me, like, this was like a career fair thing that I got at a career fair back in school. And, like, if you’re listening to this and doing career fair gadgets and, like, swag, don’t give out T-shirts and water bottles. Give out fidget devices because Bell, whatever company Bell is, I still have your fidget device and I want you to know that I love it. So, if you work for Bell and you make fidget devices, I want to say thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Let the records show that it has been stated.

Shea Belsky
There’s my endorsement for you there. I gave my endorsement for Bell, whatever company it was that made this fidget gadget.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Shea Belsky
“Minds are like parachutes. They only function when open.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Shea Belsky
I’ve been doing my Tolkien deep dive at the moment. I, like, browsed the Tolkien Gateway, which is like the Lord of the Rings Wiki. And I have the audio book for the Lord of the Rings queued up that are narrated by Andy Serkis. So, I’m kind of ready with all of the terminology and lore from the world. I’ve seen the extended edition movies, so that’s not an issue. But I’m kind of doing a Tolkien deep dive right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Shea Belsky
Right now, I am reading, this is actually a HubSpot favorite, it’s called Radical Candor by Kim Scott.

Pete Mockaitis
She was on the show.

Shea Belsky
This is actually really helpful for me about giving honest but meaningful feedback to people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Shea Belsky
I like taking a lot of walking meetings. It’s not really a tool. It’s like a thing. But if I can, like, if I can listen in on a meeting and go for a walk in the middle of the day, that also helps me stim or self-regulate. That helps me kind of calm down and relax and be more present on the meeting, honestly.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Shea Belsky
Oh, I’m running and walking and hiking and stuff like that. Anything that kind of gets my body moving. I feel like it’s a form of physical therapy.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget or sound bite that you’re known for?

Shea Belsky
Autistic people are really inspirational and so powerful and talented, but you have to really work with us and acknowledge our support needs to get the most out of autistic folks.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Shea Belsky
I have my own podcast called Autistic Techie. If you’re neurodivergent, know somebody who is, and you want to learn more about this subject in great detail, find me in all your podcasts platforms, social media, Autistic Techie. If you want to find me personally, my name is Shea Belsky. There’s only one of me. If you search for me anywhere on the web, you will find me. I am one of one, I promise.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Shea Belsky
Challenge what you know about neurodiversity. And if all you know is “Rain Man” or “Atypical” or something else, seek to broaden your perspectives and learn from people in your life who are neurodivergent because you’d be really surprised at what you hear from them and what you may take away from those conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Shea, thank you.

Shea Belsky
Thank you so much, Pete.

Aug 11
0

1083: How Tiny Actions Inspire Others through Mattering with Zach Mercurio

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Zach Mercurio reveals the hidden epidemic that’s plaguing the workplace—and what we can do about it.

You’ll Learn

  1. The root of disengagement and quiet quitting
  2. How to help others feel valued in just 30 seconds
  3. The questions that help people feel seen

About Zach

Zach Mercurio is a researcher, leadership development facilitator, and speaker specializing in purposeful leadership, mattering, and meaningful work. He advises leaders in organizations worldwide on practices for building cultures that promote well-being, motivation, and high performance. 

Mercurio holds a PhD in organizational learning, performance, and change and serves as one of Simon Sinek’s Optimist Instructors, teaching a top-rated course on creating mattering at work. His previous book is The Invisible Leader.

Resources Mentioned

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Zach Mercurio Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Zach, welcome!

Zach Mercurio
Thanks, Pete. It’s good to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your work on a very important topic, and I’ll kick it off by just getting some of the goods. Can you share with us a particularly surprising and fascinating thing you’ve learned about us humans as you’ve done your research and put together your book, The Power of Mattering.

Zach Mercurio
Yeah, there’s this notion that we, as people, should be valued once we add value. So, it shows up everywhere, right? Like, we get a good grade, we get rewarded, or we add value at work and we get recognized. And so, we wait for people to add value for them to be valued and to value them.

But what we’ve discovered is that the opposite is actually psychologically true. People need to be valued in order to add value. We need to feel valued, feel seen, heard, needed so we can develop the self-confidence we need to add value.

And what’s interesting is that, when you think about what’s invested in, we tend to invest in the lagging indicators of valuing someone once they add value, and tend to leave the leading indicator which is making sure someone feels seen, heard, valued, making sure they feel worthy and capable so they can add value up to chance.

So that’s been very interesting reframe is that we tend to think that we need to add value to be valued, but we actually need to be valued to add value consistently and sustainably.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And, in a way, this topic is as real and as deep as it gets. And I’m having flashbacks to episode 500 with Victor Cheng, when he talked about how to have unshakable confidence. And so, we went into some deep topics about, like, value.

We might not feel it, but, in a way, some of like our fundamental societal beliefs, law, religion, philosophies, wisdom, traditions are like the sort of the ground truth foundational thing is, whether I think about the United Nations’ Declaration on Human Rights or some, you know, biblical stuff, humans being made in the image and likeness of God, is that the fundamental like human beings have value just cause fundamentally, intrinsically.

And that’s why it’s like just very basic. That’s why you can’t kill people, like, “But why? Like, you can kill a cockroach, there’s no laws against it. No one gets upset about it. You can’t kill a person.” Like, well, fundamentally that’s because people have value in and of themselves. And yet, we cannot feel that way internally, and that can create a cascade of not-so-great implications.

Zach Mercurio
There’s a lot there. Can we go back? Well, I want to share a quote from Dr. Paul Farmer, who was a doctor that revolutionized the treatment of tuberculosis worldwide. And he said that the idea that some lives matter less is the root of what’s wrong with everything in the world, is the root of all that’s evil in the world.

And so, when you’re talking about worth, independent of what you do, don’t do, who you are, where you live, you’re talking about dignity. Dignity is that inherent worth that a human being has independent of what they do, don’t do, where they live, who they are. You also mentioned confidence. We don’t develop confidence by sitting in our offices, or wherever we are, chanting self-affirmations to ourself.

We develop confidence because we can go out, try, fail, and experiment. Why? Because someone has our back. This goes back to our rooted need for secure attachment as children. One of the things I like seeing is when I go to a house, a family, a friend, and they have kids, if their kids are loud in front of them, I know that there’s secure attachment there because I know, seriously, I know that their sense of mattering to an adult is not threatened by what they do or don’t do.

They can be corrected, but it’s not threatened. So, they can go out, experiment, take risks, learn, build relationships, play, and know that they have a secure base to come back to because they already matter to someone else. This is how mattering plays out instinctually. And as we age and as we develop, as we go to work, you may have heard of the term psychological safety.

Pete Mockaitis
We had Amy Edmondson on show.

Zach Mercurio
Yeah. Now, I haven’t talked with Amy about this, but I don’t think many books would have been sold if it was called adult attachment at work. But that’s essentially what it is.

Psychological safety is adult attachment, because when someone feels that they have a leader who has their back, that they matter to enough, that they can go out, experiment, take risks, learn, speak up, and they know that that sense of mattering to another person will not be threatened, then they’re more likely to thrive and innovate in all of those things because they have that secure base. I mean, that’s what psychological safety is.

And all of this goes back to what you mentioned as our primal human drive to be significant to other people. The first thing you did as a baby when you were born, scientists find, is you grasped your arms out in a hugging motion. It’s called the grasp reflex. And you actually searched to grab onto somebody before you searched for food, because your survival depended on you mattering enough to someone else to keep you alive.

So that drive to be significant to another person for our very survival motivates and animates almost all human behavior. And when that’s satisfied, we experience what psychologists call mattering.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, let’s talk about the definition of mattering. So, we’ve got that psychological definition there. Can you run that by us again?

Zach Mercurio
Yeah. Mattering is the experience of feeling significant to the people around you. And psychologist, Isaac Prilleltensky has theorized that it comes from two areas that’s well supported in the research – feeling valued by others and knowing how we add value to their lives. And, again, that feeling valued and adding value dimension, they have a reciprocal relationship. The more we feel valued, the more we’re likely to add value. The more we see the evidence of our significance and how we’re adding value, the more we feel valued.

Motivation, resilience, productivity, performance, all the things we say we want comes from that virtuous cycle of mattering. It’s different, and I think distinctions are important because it’s different than belonging or inclusion. I had a friend, recently, who moved abroad, and I asked her, I said, “How is it going?” And she said, “Oh, you know, it’s great. Like, I get invited to all of these conversations, dinner parties. I’m doing a soccer club after work, but I’m around all these people, but I feel completely unknown. I feel completely invisible.”

So mattering is different than things like belonging or inclusion. She felt like she belonged. That’s feeling welcomed and accepted in a group. She felt like she was included. She was able to take an equal active role in that group, but she didn’t feel that she mattered. She didn’t feel significant to individuals in that group. She didn’t feel seen, heard, valued, and needed. That’s why I can belong on a team.

Well, let’s use this conversation. I can belong in this conversation, but you might not notice that I’m a caretaker for a parent who’s in the hospital. You might not be able to name my unique strengths or my unique gifts that I bring. I can feel included here. I can speak. I can take an active role. But I may not feel that my voice is truly heard by you when it’s given. So mattering is the interpersonally generated experience of feeling significant to those around us.

And something we get to reinforce that inherent dignity that we mentioned earlier, strengthens that dignity, and it’s also something we give to others. And, actually, the more we show others how they matter, the more we see the evidence of our significance and the more we feel that we matter.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like these fine distinctions that you’re drawing here because, in a way, I think this might be sort of like the missing factor for a reasonable segment of folks and work or their home lives or wherever, is they say, “Okay, yeah, I’m included. Yeah, okay, I’m doing the stuff. Okay, I share what I think and I am part of the team and I do the things and it’s kind of interesting, but something’s kind of missing in terms of I’m not vibing with this team and feeling awesome in my experience here.” This may be the thing.

Zach Mercurio
Yeah, it’s that feeling of being in a room of a bunch of people, even your friends, and feeling completely invisible and unknown. We’ve all had that feeling where we’ve been around people, but felt like people don’t really know or see that our inner experience, that inner voice that we bring and that we have. And that’s that feeling of not mattering. And the data indicates that what we’re really facing is a mattering deficit, not necessarily an engagement crisis or loneliness epidemic.

For example, more people than ever report that they’re disengaged in their work, as an example. We’ve heard that from Gallup for 20 years, how disengaged we are. It’s about seven out of 10 of us are emotionally uninvested in our work. This is despite DEI programs, wellbeing programs, perks, wages increasing even with inflation 42% in the last eight years, a collective $1 billion investment in services to improve engagement, 100 validated surveys, right? We’ve programmed the heck out of this. Yet people are still disengaged.

And there’s a couple data points that weren’t well publicized in Gallup’s latest report. One of those was that this is the lowest it’s ever been. Just 40% of people strongly agreed that someone at work, where they spend one third of their one waking life, cares for them as a person. That’s the lowest that’s ever been.

Pete Mockaitis
That just feels very sad.

Zach Mercurio
Just 30% of people said someone could see, name, invest in their unique potential. Workhuman did a study in 2024, found that 30% of people self-reported, they felt “invisible in work.” When it comes to loneliness, we’re more lonely than ever, but, ironically, we’re more connected than ever. We send about 30 to 40 text-based messages to peers and colleagues every day. We’re on more platforms than ever. There’s 38 million people probably right now exchanging messages on Slack.

We are on Teams chats. We’re sending messages. We’re sending short texts to each other. We’re more connected. We’re more lonely than ever. And the conventional wisdom on how to address loneliness has been to connect more, put yourself out there, join clubs. The organizational response has been more meetings. So, Americans’ time spent in meetings has tripled since 2021 because of this loneliness epidemic, but we’re more lonely than ever.

And one of the reasons why is that, psychologists find, it’s not the quantity of connections that matters. It’s the quality of connections. And we are having lower quality connections than ever. And what makes a quality connection? Psychologists call it experiencing companionate love. It’s not passionate love. Companionate love is experiencing the behaviors of attention, of care, of affirmation, of compassion from another person. That’s mattering. That’s experiencing that we matter.

So, the opposite of loneliness isn’t having more people around you. It’s feeling that you matter to the people around you. And what’s going on now is that we’re having lower-quality interactions. And one reason why is because we’ve lost, over the last 25 years of using technology obsessively, we’ve lost a lot of the skills that allow us to truly see, hear, value, and show the person across from us how they’re needed.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there’s so much there. And, well, the notion of feeling invisible, I mean, I imagine this can be a whole spectrum, you know, in some ways, feeling invisible versus visible feels very binary, black and white, one you can see, one you cannot. And yet, there is a whole continuum in terms of care and attention. I was just a little bit versus ample.

And I’m thinking, I remember one time I was with my podcast mastermind group, and they’re awesome, and we really do care about each other and attend to each other. And they were having some sort of weird technical glitch because I said something and no one acknowledged it. And I said something else, and I said it like a third time. They’re like, “Oh, what was the name of that software tool?” I don’t know. And I was like, “Oh, it’s called Claude.”

And then it was like, see them talking, “It was Claude was the name of it.” Then he was like, “No, it’s called Claude.” And then it’s like, “You know, I’ll Google it.” And so, it was about as invisible as you can be, because like I’m literally saying the thing and there is like zero acknowledgement of it. And even though I figured, “Okay, this is probably something with a microphone or an AirPods switch over something somewhere,” it felt terrible. It’s like, really did.

I even had the thought, it’s like, “Am I invisible to you?” And then I sorted out and we had a little laugh, but I think that’s very striking that even a brief moment of technical difficulty-induced invisibility was severely distressing. And to have some folks have that be their daily existence in work and/or home day after day, I got to imagine that results in some pretty spooky health implications. Can you tell us, Zach, what’s at stake here?

Zach Mercurio
So, what we know is that what you experience is a brief moment of what psychologist Gordon Flett calls anti-mattering. And anti-mattering is the opposite of experiencing mattering. It’s feeling insignificant, feeling unseen, feeling unheard. And there’s two consequences to feelings of not mattering.

One is withdrawal. So, leaving, it’s pressing leave. Like you try, you try, you try, nobody sees you, you leave. You isolate, you stay silent, you withhold. That whole quiet quitting trend was totally misdiagnosed as a lazy generation choosing not to work when, really, it was a generation who was responding to perpetual experiences of feeling insignificant to the systems and organizations around them. That’s the inevitable.

Quiet quitting is the inevitable withdrawal response to feeling insignificant in perpetuity. Or, let’s say that your microphone incident kept going. You could have lashed out and slammed something down, right? So, acts of withdrawal, or it can be much louder. And this is actually dangerous, societally. It can result in acts of desperation, “Hey, I matter more than you think.”

Acts of acting out. Destruction, protesting, complaining, blaming, gossiping. When we look at the research on childhood bullying, for example, what nobody wants to talk about with childhood bullies is that bullies, that bullying behavior is actually the last-ditch effort to get attention and control that one is not getting in their family life and in their personal life. It’s actually a consequence of not mattering. We see that in the workplace, like workplace gossip, for example.

Negative workplace gossip, a lot of people think is because of toxic narcissistic employees. But, really, the number one predictor of negative workplace gossip is called psychological contract violation. It’s a fancy word that just means that, “My expectations of fair treatment from my leader were violated. So, because I can’t speak up to them, I’m going to go speak out to someone else. I will do anything, even if it’s talking negatively about someone else, to feel that I matter.”

Societally, when people don’t feel that they matter, this results into division, and it results into clinging to small groups or people that help me feel that I matter because I’m not experiencing it in my everyday interactions. And you talked about the health implications. There was a researcher, John Taylor, he’s a sociologist. He studied thousands of people for six months, and he actually took blood and urine samples, and he was measuring hormones, cortisol, fight or flight hormones, objectively in the blood.

And then he rated them, had them rate the number of relationships they had in their life in which they felt they mattered to, using this general mattering scale. And the people who experienced more relationships, in which they felt seen, heard, valued and needed, actually had objectively lower cortisol levels in their blood after controlling for the same life circumstances than those who did not experience mattering.

So, literally, the experience of mattering, because it’s a survival instinct, can serve as a protective resource for a lot that life throws on us. But when that protective resource is absent, we tend to succumb to life rather than surmount when it comes to resilience.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, this is powerful stuff. It’s a big deal. Well, could we maybe zoom in and get a picture and some hope in terms of perhaps a team or an organization that wasn’t doing a great job of having folks feeling like they mattered, that they had any significance, and then what did they do to turn it around and what kind of results came out on the other side?

Zach Mercurio
I’m actually going to zoom in on the power of the individual manager and supervisor. Because I live in Colorado, and we try to grow gardens every year, but I live on the front range. It’s super dry, and you have to, like, obsessively create micro climates for these plants to grow. And what I’ve been finding through looking at organizations who do this well, there’s a lot of leaders who are in systems that are really difficult that create micro climates where people feel that they matter and feel significant.

One of the things that we find, and if I were to ask everybody listening, “When is the time in your life or your work when you most felt that you mattered?” Most likely you are going to think about a small moment, a small interaction, not a big initiative, not a big program, not getting your direct deposit, getting a promotion, getting an award. You’re probably going to think about a small instant in which you felt seen, heard, valued and needed by other people.

And I’m going to take this back to my first study that we did on the experience of meaningful work. And we embedded ourselves with a group of custodians, so university janitors, for a year and a half. And we were trying to understand what made work meaningful in a very difficult and overlooked occupation.

So, if you want to think about experiences of anti-mattering, I remember sitting in a break room with this group of custodians, and a building user walked by, crumpled a piece of trash. He threw it and it hit the trash can, bounced off and just kept walking by. And the custodians were sitting right there.

That experience of everyday anti-mattering could rake on a group. But this team, this group was profoundly joyful and connected to this bigger purpose. And we wanted to know why. And we found out that it was their supervisor who did very small things to regularly remind them of their significance. For example, one of the custodians said that she was miserable in her first couple of months on the job.

She just took the job so she could put food on the table for her two young sons. She got rejected from 14 jobs before she applied for this one. And she said she kept saying to herself, like, “Why couldn’t you have done something more with your life? Why are you just a janitor?” And during that first month, she would clock in, clock out, that’s it.

And her supervisor brought her into this break room, and said, “Hey, I just noticed that you’ve been struggling. I want you to read this.” And he put in front of her a dictionary and he had her read the definition of the word custodian out loud to him. And the definition was a person responsible for a building and everyone in it. And he goes, “I want you to read that again. Now I want you to look outside.” It was a glass conference room.

“I want you to look outside of all of these students walking by. These are someone’s precious child that’s trusting you to keep this place clean. Look at them. I mean, that’s why you’re here.” And she said that it was that moment, that was the first moment in her life that someone showed her she was worthy. And it went on to change her belief systems about herself and her job. She was actually at the university for over 30 years. She just had a retirement party.

When I asked her what’s the most meaningful part of her job, she said to me that it’s cleaning the bathrooms in the university dormitories after the weekends. And I said, “That sounds gross, you know. Why?” And she goes, “Because after that moment with my supervisor, every time I go into that bathroom, I say to myself, ‘I’m cleaning this bathroom so that these kids don’t get sick.’”

And what happened was, is that over time, this group had developed a collective so-that mentality, because this supervisor was creating repeatable moments, interactions where he was showing them the evidence of their significance. And that’s how we develop these three major practices, right? He was noticing them. He noticed that she was struggling in that moment. He affirmed her. He showed her the difference that she made. And then he reminded her how she was needed.

And so, organizations that are doing this well tend to scale the skills, those skills that that supervisor had, to create repeatable moments where people feel noticed, affirmed, and needed. But I think that what’s an important distinction, it doesn’t come from big projects, big initiatives. It comes from small interactions.

Like, I mentioned the engagement data from before. You can’t tackle employee engagement problems with a program. You can only tackle it through optimizing daily interactions. And that’s where we’ve missed the mark. But that’s why there’s hope. I mean, I think that you asked, “Where’s the hope?” The hope is, is that your next leadership act, your next great leadership act is in your next interaction.

I mean, we can do something about this loneliness epidemic, disengagement crisis in our next interaction, because mattering happens in moments. Mattering happens in moments, not through programs.

Pete Mockaitis
Zach, this is so good. You’re bringing me back to my second job. And I was placed as a temp, a temp worker, at the Danville Area Community College in my hometown in Illinois. And I had this wonderful woman, Anne Weigel, and she was creating some documents associated with the nursing curriculum at the Community College.

And so, I was just sort of helping out with a bunch of these things. And so, I’m cruising along, cruising along, cruising along. And at one point, we got a bunch of them done, and so it was sort of bound and all done. And she said, “Pete, look at this.” And so, I looked at it, I was like, “Yeah, that’s cool. That looks nice.” And so, I went like right back to like, you know, just kind of cranking through my things. And she’s like, “No. Stop.” She’s like, “You did this.” And I was like, “Huh! Well, yeah, I guess I did.”

And it was awesome because my nature was, “Oh, I got a list of tasks. I’m going to continue checking them through.” And then she, like, somewhat forcefully, like redirected me, paused, and I was like, “Well, yeah, I did.” And I don’t remember what more she said after that in terms of like how the nursing students will be using this and what, dah, dah, dah. But it really stuck with me such that, “Yeah, I’m doing a bunch of documents, you know, copy-paste format, dah, dah, dah, dah,” but, really, it stuck with me that people who are learning to become nurses will be referencing these documents.

And so, to the extent to which they are clear and visually engaging and helpful and accurate will, in some small way, improve their ability to, ultimately, care for people in hospitals and healthcare settings. And so, she really transformed it. And it was a lovely experience.

Zach Mercurio
What she did is a practice that we can all do, right? She showed you how you made a difference. I worked with the National Park Service, and there was one park in the West that had a really high morale, low turnover with their maintenance staff.

Maintenance in the National Parks is incredibly grueling work because many of these locations are in rural areas, the weather’s not always great. It’s sort of harsh conditions. It’s tough to get employees. But this manager had, again, created this microclimate where it was this outlier, high morale, low turnover.

And I asked him what he did, and he said, “I go around the park and I take pictures of projects my team worked on. I’ll take pictures of visitors walking over a bridge they repaired. I’ll take pictures of a shorter line for a bathroom because they opened up a bathroom that was needed repairs. I’ll take a picture of people working on a trail, and I send them an email every Friday, and the subject line is just ‘Look what you did.’ And then I just attach the pictures.”

And he said that, “They can’t argue that their job matters or doesn’t matter. I give them photographic evidence.” And I loved that because leaders and people who show others they matter, don’t just tell them that they matter. They show them exactly how they matter. I mean, one way to do this is to simply start giving better gratitude for one another and expressing that gratitude.

Like, for everybody listening, think of someone you’re grateful for. Now, think about the last time you explicitly told them. For most of us, there’s a gap between our feelings of gratitude for someone and our actions of showing that. When we ask people, “What does meaningful gratitude look like?” they mention four things, right? One is describing the setting, like when and where, what you’re thankful for someone doing, when and where did it happen.

Two, describe the behaviors, “What did they actually do when they did this thing that you’re grateful for?” What gifts did they use? So what perspective, what strengths, what wisdom did they use?” And then, finally, impact. Show them, and this is most important, show them the impact that it made on you, that, “If you didn’t do this, this wouldn’t have been possible for me,” and showing them very vividly.

So, in your daily routine today, go beyond saying thank you or good job and show someone vividly the difference they make and how they make it. And you will see someone come alive. You’ll see some go, “Oh, well, wait, wait.” Like you did, “I was just doing some tasks, but wait, I did do this.” It jolts people out of this routine, out of this sort of inertia of the routine. It reminds them that they matter and shows them how.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. Could you share with us, let’s just do two example demonstrations of how that is articulated?

Zach Mercurio
Yeah, sure. So, Pete, at the beginning of this podcast interview, before we got on, we had a really good conversation, and you mentioned your interest in this topic of mattering. That it was deep and philosophically important for you. And, for me, that demonstrated your interest, your wisdom, your intentionality, your preparation.

And as someone who’s trying to create a world where every single person feels valued so they can add value, I felt really comfortable coming on this platform, and I’ve been on a lot of podcasts, but that made me feel really comfortable.

And so, the way I’ve been able to explain things today, and if one person just is able to name that they may not be experiencing mattering or someone in their life or work might not be able to experience mattering, and they can do something about it, well, that’s because of you and the prep that you put into this and how you welcomed me on. So, thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. I wasn’t expecting it to be about me, but…

Zach Mercurio
But that’s the difference. The difference between the, just saying…

Pete Mockaitis
“Thanks. Good job.”

Zach Mercurio
You know, “Hey, you know, thanks for being here.” Or, I’ll give another example of me, personally. Like, I travel a lot. I’m in airports a lot. And I was in an airport bathroom, and there was a cleaner or a maintenance worker, he was in the bathroom and he was fixing the paper towel dispenser, and I was washing my hand next to him.

Now, I saw about 10 people just walk right by him, brushed by him. And I stopped and I just said, “Hey, thanks for getting this working again. By the way, it looks great in here.” And he was like, “What did you say?” Like, that’s what he said. He was almost defensive. He was like, “What?” I was like, “Oh, I’m just saying thanks. Like, thanks for fixing this. It looks great in here.” And he goes, “Well, thank you.” And I said, “Okay.” But he was shocked, right? And all it took me was 30 seconds, but that may have been the only time he saw the difference that he made that day for someone else.

And this is what’s so maddeningly simple about the work that I do, is that I’m teaching people how to optimize moments with people in everyday interactions, whether you’re leading a team, an organization, or using the bathroom at an airport, that can introduce somebody back to them the evidence that they are significant so that they can go home and have that evidence to reinforce the belief that they are significant and that they matter.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s perfect, yes. And I honestly, mostly what you’re doing in airports is waiting anyway. So, let’s make it count.

Zach Mercurio
But just notice how often there’s so many, you know, another example that I have that we can extend to all areas of our life is, you know, my kid is seven and he likes watching the trash truck come. And there was this guy, I mean, he was like, he did not look happy this day to be there. And he was like throwing the bins down and all this. And my seven-year-old’s out there just waving at him.

And when that guy caught the eye, I mean, this is powerful, that guy was seen by this seven-year-old, his demeanor completely changed. He got the biggest smile on his face, jumped off the truck, said, “Hey,” right? And I wonder what it would be like if we were more astonished at other people’s presence in our lives like that on a daily basis. You know, like honestly, not that, but really just when you go through the grocery store line, say, “I know life is hard, I’m really glad you’re here.”

Your team members saying these five words that we hear often in our interviews that are so powerful, “Hey, I just want to remind you, if it wasn’t for you, this wouldn’t be possible. If you weren’t here, this meeting wouldn’t have been like this. This week wouldn’t have been like this.” But I think that there’s so many people around us that make our lives possible, that make what we do possible, and they don’t know it because we don’t tell them.

I mean, that’s why we go back to the beginning of the conversation. You can believe that you matter on your own. You can develop a sense of self-worth on your own, but others can either strengthen or shatter it through the evidence that they’re feeding back to you. And just that act of being acknowledged by my kid completely altered this person’s entire demeanor. That’s the power of mattering.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, boy, I love that example when you talk about kids. It reminds me, one time I was at church and I just caught some woman’s look, and she was like beaming with a huge smile and bright eyes. And I was like, “Wow!” And I was like, “Well, hi.” I waved and was like, “Well, that feels amazing. All of us should, like, greet each other in this way all the time.” And then it’s like, “Oh, you’re looking at my kid.” It’s funny. It’s like we do that for little kids, but we big kids still need it.

Zach Mercurio
Yeah, I mean, next time you’re in line for the construction person, you’re at a one lane road and they have that annoying stop sign, we have to stop and wait, and you’re driving, roll down the window and say, “Hey, I know this is a tough job, I just want to thank you for making sure I get through here safely,” and do it authentically. And you will be shocked at what happens. I bet that person will go home and tell their kids, their parents, their siblings about that.

And you know what’s interesting, is that we were talking about these moments and they seem just very simple and mundane, and someone may be listening and be like, “Well, what does this have to do with work or my job or being a leader?” This is precisely what we find creates mattering in work, motivation in work, and engagement at work. It’s these small moments where someone sees us, they hear us, they remind us of a gift they had, they remind us of a difference we made.

For example, one of my favorite studies is researchers had freelance editors who were contract workers go on and they would edit this fake document. And on one document, there was edits from someone who had worked on it before, and then there was nothing else there. But the other document there was edits that someone else did, and then the lead editor, the head publisher wrote thank you notes on the comments on someone else’s edits before that editor found it.

And the editors that saw those comments actually ended up catching almost double the amounts of mistakes and spent more time on their edits than the group that didn’t even see a hypothetical thank you to someone else. So just even the anticipation that someone might notice our work, that someone might notice us, can actually compel our performance and commitment and engagement and motivation to do something.

So, while we’re talking about like saying hi to a trash truck operator, which is powerful, this also translates to these everyday moments of seeing, hearing, and valuing people.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and this is such a master key that unlocks so many things and has so many implications in so many little ways. I think it’s well worth just reflecting on it for a while and how it intersects your world. I’m thinking about, one time, I went to Midas and I got some car work done, you know, and they were, super helpful and I really appreciated it, and they were honest.

And they said, “Hey, actually,” point at the records, “It looks like you got this issue and it’s still covered in your warranty, so you should really just have the dealer do this for free.” It was, like, that’s awesome. And I thought that was really cool. So, I thanked them. I appreciated them. It was all good. And then it was also interesting, these Midas guys, they’re crushing it, I got a phone call from someone asking me how my experience was with Midas.

And it’s so funny how that struck me as extraordinary, even though, in some ways it’s not, like, we hear, “How likely is it that you’d recommend us to a friend or a colleague?” like everywhere. And, hey, I worked at Bain, the net promoter score stuff, but, like, we see that everywhere. But when it’s a push button on a screen, or they email you, “Hey, take this survey,” part of me, part of us always wonders, like, “Does anyone care at all? Will they read it? Will they think about it? Will this have any impact? Does it matter?”

But when I had a human being spending time in her life, inquiring about my experience, well, one, I just thought, “Man, Midas is even more awesome now.” I had good vibes, and appreciation, goodwill toward them. And, secondly, it was like, “Well, I will tell you precisely how my Midas experience was in some detail and how cool I thought it was,” because it was just transformational in terms of a human being called me, and you might say, “Oh, they interrupted me. Argh!” I was in a good mood, whatever, I had some time.

A human being called me and I was like, “Oh, you actually want to hear what I have to say about my experience. So, I’m actually going to tell you, as opposed to ignoring all of the emails that ask me to take a survey.”

Zach Mercurio
Let me mine out two practices there, actually, in the customer service example with Midas. That’s an act of compassion, right, of knowing that you could spend this money, that’s the struggle, taking an action to alleviate that struggle. I mean, one of the things that people who help other people feel that they matter do is they move from empathy to compassion relatively quickly.

Empathy is coming to understand what someone’s going through, like feeling your pain. But compassion is taking an action to alleviate that pain using what’s in your power in the moment, even if it’s small, in a customer interaction, to alleviate a potential future pain is something that you’re biologically wired to respond to. So that’s why you felt that commitment of, “Wow!”

That’s what helps us feel noticed, helps us feel seen when somebody actually sees our struggle and offers an action to help. The second though is that someone called and took an interest. Asked you a question, a deeper question. A lot of people in a lot of organizations, they do the net promoter or they measure satisfaction, “How satisfied were you with this?” And they don’t measure impact, “What impact did this have on your life?”

And the questions we ask can also demonstrate whether we see somebody. One thing that people can do right now is start asking better questions. Take an interest in people, instead of, “How are you? How’s it going? How was your day?” Those are all greetings, right? Again, I have a 10 and a seven-year-old, I travel a lot. When someone asks me, “How are you?” my brain can’t compute the last, like, eight hours of living a complex human life, so I just say, “Good. You?”

It doesn’t help them. They don’t learn anything about me. It doesn’t help me share my experience, help me feel seen. But if someone asks me, “Hey, what is your attention today?” Or the question I ask everybody, like I asked you at the beginning is, “What have you been working on before today?” And I learned that a carpenter is helping you work on your studio. I would have never known that if I didn’t ask that question.

Or, “What’s been most meaningful to you today? What’s been important to you today? What are you struggling with? How can I help?” If you’re a leader, “What logjams are you coming up against on your projects today? Anything I can do to remove them?” Those clear, open, and exploratory questions, the art of asking the question, the art of having a human being call you and check in authentically, helps us feel seen.

So, those are two practices that you can mine out of the Midas example, the Midas touch, whatever it is, is the compassion, seeing a potential struggle, anticipating a potential struggle, offering an action to alleviate that, but also taking a genuine interest.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, Zach, in many ways, this is just super simple, but could you give us some top dos and don’ts as we think, “This is awesome. I want to spread more good mattering vibes around me”?

Zach Mercurio
Yeah, the top do is to simply go out and ask the people in your life, or in your work, or the people that you serve, this question, “When you feel that you matter to me, what am I doing?” and listen and write it down, and do more of that. It doesn’t matter where you are in the organization or where you are in life, you have a relationship with somebody.

And asking that question can really, as you said, be the key that unlocks what actually cultivates healthy relationships, which is feeling seen, heard, valued. But everybody experiences feeling noticed, affirmed, and needed in different ways. So, when you ask that question, it’s very powerful. So do that.

The second is to make sure that you’re taking captive the interactions you have on a daily basis. Don’t underestimate. So, this is a do and a don’t. The do is overestimate your impact. The don’t is don’t underestimate your impact.

There’s a psychologist named Nick Epley, and he did studies where he had people write thank you notes out of the blue to certain recipients, and he rated the giver of the note what impact they thought that it would have on the person, what emotional impact it would have and then he rated the actual emotional impact it had.

And almost every single time, the giver of the thank you note underestimated the emotional impact that they would have. This has been replicated time and time and time again. So, overestimate the value of small gestures of seeing people, of affirming them, of showing them how they’re needed. And that will get you out of this gap between your good intentions and your good practices.

The final do I have is to schedule your good intentions. Like, I don’t think anybody wakes up and it’s like, “I’m going to be an uncaring person today.” I just think we get caught up in all the things we have to do, and we lose that. Like, I’m the kindest person in the world when I’m out walking my dog. I think about all the people I should thank, all the letters I should write, and then I get back to my office and I have a big to-do list and I put it off.

Schedule your good intentions. If you have that thought to reach out to someone, put it on your calendar. Put a reminder in your phone. Don’t leave acts of kindness and compassion up to chance. The don’t I have is don’t do this to get more out of people. That’s manipulation. Don’t do this as a tactic. Don’t do this if you don’t believe that this is how you want to show up in the world.

Because the moment we start treating someone as a means to our end is the moment we actually stop seeing them as human, and we start seeing them as “a cog” or a piece of my puzzle. But do this because you see a person as a worthy end to themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful stuff. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Zach Mercurio
I’m going to go back to my favorite book, which is Man’s Search for Meaning. And in it, Victor Frankl quotes Nietzsche, a philosopher, but he says, “He who has a why to live, can bear almost any how.” When we know that we matter, when we know that someone else relies on us, it can pull us through even the most difficult times.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And can you share with us a favorite study or a piece of research?

Zach Mercurio
One of my favorite studies is actually by the organizational psychologist Adam Grant. And he did a study, when his daughter was born, he was in a hospital that was struggling to get clinicians to comply with handwashing procedures, which sounds gross, but it’s very common in healthcare systems. And what he did was he took all of the handwashing stations in one side of the hospital, and he looked at the signs.

The sign said, “Hand hygiene prevents you from catching diseases,” and he replaced them all with “Hand hygiene prevents patients from catching diseases,” focused on others. And he left the other side of the hospital signs the same of the handwashing stations. And what he did was he measured, he had covert raters go in and rate frequency of handwashing behaviors per clinician, and then he had people going in and actually measure the amount of soap that was used in the dispensers.

And the sign that just changed that one word to focus us on our why, that other, had 33% more soap gone on average at the end of every day than the signs that had the focus on you. And there were 10% more handwashing behaviors per clinician per hour in the signs that just changed you to patients.

And I think it gets to our natural human desire to feel that we matter because when we know that we matter, we act like we matter as human beings. And that’s why when we know how what we’re doing is significant, we act like we’re significant. And I love that study because it’s just one word that reorients our mind to focus on our contribution.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And a favorite tool, something you use to be able to make your job?

Zach Mercurio
This tablet here, it’s remarkable, because I used to have piles of Moleskine notebooks. And now it’s all organized into one piece.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Zach Mercurio
Every day, I play with my kids in the morning.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, a Zach original?

Zach Mercurio
Yeah, “It’s hard for anything to matter to someone who doesn’t feel that they matter.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Zach Mercurio
You go to ZachMercurio.com, or I’m on LinkedIn at Zach Mercurio. I’ve a small group of engaged people there doing all sorts of different types of jobs that really engage in this work and are trying things out, so it’s a cool community.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Zach Mercurio
Don’t be a passive recipient of culture in your organization or wherever you are. Be an active constructor of the culture you say you want.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Zach, this is fabulous. Thank you.

Zach Mercurio
Thanks, Pete.