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KF #26. Being Resilient

Dec 15

242: How to Handle Tough Audiences with Deirdre Breakenridge

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Deirdre Breakenridge says: "Know your audience, know the tough questions."

PR consultant Deirdre Breakenridge teaches how to handle tricky audiences, identify different audience member profiles, and deliver great presentations in tough situations.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The best approaches for understanding your audience upfront
  2. Three universal practices to command attention
  3. Handy strategies to prepare you for the tough questions

About Deirdre 

Deirdre has been in PR and marketing for 25+ years helping senior executives in midsize to large organizations communicate to their stakeholders. She is a communications strategist and has worked with clients on many different types of communications programs, including executive communications and thought leadership, image and reputation management, crisis communications, media relations, PR 2.0 and social media programs.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis
Deirdre, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Thank you for inviting me.  I’m so happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I think we’re going to have a really fun one here.  And I first want to get to know a little bit more about, you started a worldwide Twitter conversation with the hashtag #PRStudChat, which I just love.  What’s the story behind this?

Deirdre Breakenridge
It’s really funny.  The name alone, I think was a conversation starter.  But the community itself, we’re over 5,000 members and we are PR professionals, educators and students, and we’ve come together because PR was changing so much through social media.  And it’s a constant conversation, but we do have Twitter chat sessions every month, and this has been going on for eight years.  But our very first Twitter chat that we had, we had gentlemen showing up saying, “We’re studs, we’re here.”  And we said stud was short for student, which was really funny.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good.  Well, I was wondering, is this something for very high performers in the world of public relations, or students, or I guess both?

Deirdre Breakenridge
It’s anybody and everyone who wants to understand how to communicate better on behalf of their companies, and especially students who are trying to figure out, “Is public relations right for me?”  Because just the whole profession of PR has really changed and we’re much more integrated with marketing, and we’re using technology; some exciting things going on.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good.  Cool.  And so then your company is Pure Performance Communications.  What’s your mission and purpose there?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So, it’s a consulting firm.  We’re a strategic communications consulting, and we believe in a blend of strategic comms and technology to create a better, more impactful experience for a brand’s customers.  So it’s all about the customer, the consumer, and when you fuse technology and communication together, you can definitely learn more about your audience and be able to create an experience that they’re going to enjoy, become loyal brand, I guess, advocates.  And that’s the best place that you want to be with your customers.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  Cool.  Alright, so now for the topic of the day – I discovered you through your LinkedIn learning course called Handling an Unruly Audience, which is a very eye-catching name.  And so I was intrigued as to maybe what inspired you to create such a thing.  Have you had some wild encounters perhaps with an unruly audience?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So here’s the thing: I’ve always believed that teaching a course about presentations and handling tough audiences, you don’t have to be in PR or marketing; it could be any field.  And it doesn’t have to be 1,000 people where you’re on a stage; it literally could be you presenting to your team in a meeting.  So, I knew that there’s a lot of people out there, and I’m always listening to what professionals are saying.  And they wanted to know, “How do we handle tough questions?” and, “How do you get your messages across?”, “How do you handle learning about them and using the information, building champions before you start?”
So, I had been working with LinkedIn and they always ask me, “What are the topics that you think really would resonate with professionals?”  So, of course, handling unruly audiences was one of them.  Thankfully I’ve had lots of experiences with different audiences, tough questions, somewhat unruly, nothing too crazy.

Pete Mockaitis
I was wondering if you had just some terribly uncooperative audiences in your past.  And I could think of just one that leaps to mind, because it was just so satisfying.  I was doing a college keynote, and I think it was called The Four Frustrations of Student Leadership.  So, I’m talking about frustrations, and it just so happened I was being frustrated by a couple of folks in the audience, who were just flagrantly disrespectful and just talking to each other.  And usually I can silence misbehavior just by having a good look, good eye contact.  But they were barely looking at me to even give me the chance.  They were just talking to each other, kind of laughing and joking around.  And other folks around them, you could tell they were kind of irritated and uncomfortable.
And I had the sweet, blissful satisfaction of working in the speech content to be like, “Sometimes it just feels like you’re pouring your heart and soul into what you’re doing, and you’re giving it all you have, and you wish that people would care, that they would really buy in.”
And I’m just like staring directly at them and walking very close to them and just talking about how it can be frustrating when folks don’t engage when you’re giving all you have.  And it was so awesome because you could see the melting in their chairs, and everyone around was like, “Oh dang, he just did that.”  It felt so good to squash them.  But usually it’s more minor; it’s like people speak up and you look at them and then they stop and then you move on.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah.  I think the tactic you used was really good.  And I use that in my course because that is one way, even though it falls under the “heckler” category.  It’s that disinterested, disruptive one participant or a group of participants, and when you kind of move close to them and either somehow target them the way that you did very quickly… And sometimes you can even give them the forum, almost like, “Oh, share” – they will stop immediately.  And I’ve done it in classrooms with my students; it just makes them kind of crawl in their seats, just sink really low.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s I guess revenge.  It’s satisfying without actually doing any permanent damage, which is cool.  But maybe just back it up – even before you start a presentation and you have an audience live in front of you.  I’d love to get your take on the best approaches to go about getting a good understanding of the audience upfront.

Deirdre Breakenridge
So I think you have to ask the right questions, and you have to utilize your resources to get the answers.  So of course you want to know who they are, what are their titles or position in the company, but it’s why are they there?  Are they choosing to be there?  Is this mandatory?  Were they forced to listen to you?  What are some of their hot-button issues, critical topics?
If there’s any way, shape or form that you have access to somebody who is putting together the meeting, or a conference coordinator, you can tap into that person.  I’ve even gone as far as for training sessions with different companies, if that audience has had presenters in the past and they videotaped it, I want to watch that tape.  I want to watch how employees or groups respond to other presenters, from their body language to their questions.
Sometimes, and it depends, if there is a company blog that is open or outward-facing, if there’s a community where you think participants are actually participating in before your meeting or your conference, you can learn so much about your audience.  And I think that’s where social media is so important, because most of the conferences where I speak today, there’s always a hashtag.  And you can follow that hashtag, that aggregated conversation, where people are already sharing what they need to know and what they’re expecting.  And I think that’s where you can walk in knowing a lot more about your audience, so that you can connect to them more quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great, certainly.  So doing that upfront homework – that’s excellent.  Then I’m wondering, if you maybe already have some interaction with the individuals you’re speaking to – if it’s sort of like teammates or collaborators – are there any particular things that are worth noting and cataloguing and synthesizing about them over the long term?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So, if it’s your teammates, here’s the thing: I always say, and this kind of gets into personalities, because every group, every company, every audience, there are personalities.  So within your own company – any company that you work for – you’re going to find the gossipers, you’re going to find the complainers, you’re going to find the folks who raise the red flags but maybe don’t have the solution, you might find the folks who have to get all the credit.  You can pinpoint those personalities, because when you know them and you recognize them, you can manage them.
So there’s no difference when you’re going in front of a group – you can either somehow figure that out or spot those personalities very quickly within your audience.  And I think that’s one way to be able to kind of document and prepare.  So if it is your team, and you know the people who are on your team, you might want to think ahead about, if they’re coming into this meeting, what are they expecting, what do they want to get out of it, what are their goals and objectives, why are they sitting there?  The more that you can think about those personalities and answer some questions, you’re going to be a lot better off.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent.  And so, are there more personality types you’d care to unpack for us?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah.  So, in my experience, there are always the skeptics.  Somebody will come to your presentation; you could be on stage with 100 people and you’re going to have the skeptics in the audience who pretty much just want to be recognized as folks who know more than the speaker, they have done this research, their books are better.  They want to be recognized.  So they’re going to be skeptical, no matter how many books you’ve written.  That’s just the way it is.

Pete Mockaitis
And those questions they ask… I could really picture it – it’s like, “Isn’t it true that…….”  It’s like, “Yes.”  Is that their question or are you just trying to impress everyone that you know something?  Okay.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Exactly.  You know what?  If you ever get the opportunity as a presenter… If it’s a conference, what I like to do – if it’s an audience that sits in a room the whole day where different presenters come up on stage, I’ll go early just to watch how the skeptics come out with the presenter before me.  And as soon as I see those skeptics, when I get up there, I include them in the conversation very quickly, because rather than having them shout from the rafters, “Oh, pay attention to me!  I’ve got more books, more research and I know this”, if you could pull them in and do some kind of recognition around them, they’re going to be your champion.  It changes.  And I’ve done that before.
I was at a leadership rally for a very large international organization, and I was able to pinpoint two skeptics on opposite sides of the room, and when I went up there, I involved them very quickly.  You do that in the business setting too whenever you’re trying to get something done.  Sometimes you want to include your naysayers, because it’s easier to get something pushed through at the end when the naysayers are actually there and onboard.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly.  And when you say, “Include them”, what does that look and sound like in practice?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So sometimes that literally means you’re talking about something and you look at the person and say, “What do you think?  Can you weigh in on this?”  And that’s a golden opportunity, because you just gave them that little bit of recognition that they’re going to want anyway, and they’re actually thankful for it and nobody else knows why or who.  It almost looks like it’s random; I could have called on anybody, like, “How about you?”  It’s just a great way to be able to flip that sceptic.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s handy.  So sceptics are one personality type to be aware of and work with.  What else?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Okay, so there are hecklers; unless you actually have a heckler, you’re not welcome into the world of public speaking.  So you have to have a heckler, and then it’s like, “Oh my God, I’ve made it!”  So, the heckler is just somebody also who is disruptive, but there’s different types of hecklers.  So, we can carve that out now or we can carve it out later, but that is actually broken down into a few personalities.
And then there’s positive people too in your audience.  If you can spot… I tend to read body language, I notice people who are sitting a certain way, who are smiling, who are nodding their heads.  So they’re like the positive onlookers – you could also involve them, because chances are the way that they’re responding to you through their non-verbal cues, they want to be involved.  So, they’re somebody that you want to tap into that personality.
Key opinion leaders – that’s another really important personality.  And I remember when – I’ve talked about this during my LinkedIn course – when I went to speak to, I think it was the American Association of Chemists – scary group; I don’t know a lot about chemists and chemistry and these scientists.  But it was all about their research and communicating and trying to make their work go a lot farther.  And I remember I had the opportunity to spend the day and a lunch with them before my presentation.
And I started to notice certain people who were very vocal within other presentations in the morning, and who were very popular, and you knew that they were highly respected.  So what did I do?  I made sure that I picked one of them and I sat at his table at lunch time, not that we were building toward a relationship, but I got to know this person a little bit, asked some questions.  So that way by the time I got to present, I included and asked a question of that key opinion leader.
And by doing that – by including the key opinion leader, and this could be in any group setting – all those people who respect that person, and if you show you have a rapport, there’s some kind of chemical in your brains that all say, “Oh my gosh, she must be okay, because she’s respecting the key opinion leader.”  And then you also have to think about your vocal champions, and they’re the ones on social media that you meet, who you talk to you beforehand and they’re already championing for you.  When you get them inside the room, they’re going to cheer you on.  So those are some of the personalities.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that sort of pre-heating, if you will, that you’re doing in terms of engaging them in conversation.  And I think there’s also something too, if you can shake hands or have some sort of a physical touch that’s appropriate prior to – it just seems to make a difference, especially if there’s a stage kind of environment, sort of creating a separation.  It’s sort of like, “No, you’re not just like an image on the screen equivalent, of distance.  You’re a person.”  It’s like I’ve interacted with you and made physical contact and know that you’re real and not a robot or an image on the screen, distantly away.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Exactly.  And I was just watching Mel Robbins, one of her presentations.  The minute she got out there, she went right into the audience and she was high-fiving and touching everybody’s hands and running up and down and being a part of the audience.  So, your point about that physical something being there – that appropriate touching, of course – goes a long way.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good.  And I also want to follow up on, you mentioned you’re reading the body language.  And are there some sort of telltale indicators that you notice repeatedly, in terms of, “When I see this, it means that, and therefore I do this”?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yes.  So when I see arms crossed, I know it’s not really buying into what they’re about to hear.  So I know that I have to work a little harder to make sure these people understand, and give them a reason to buy into what I’m about to present.  And it just reminds me early on in social media – so we’re talking… Oh gosh, I was paying attention to social media, I was writing PR 2.0 back in 2006 or 2007, and I was doing some training with Michael C. Fina.
And part of their business – I don’t know if you know Michael C. Fina, but they are very well known for their business on, I think it’s still Fifth Avenue, where you can buy the china and the jewelry and the silverware.  They were a part of that show The Price Is Right when it was ever, “And you get a diamond by Michael C. Fina.”  But a big part of their business was recognition programs for Fortune 500 companies.  So my agency at the time was their agency of record for public relations, and also for advertising.  And they asked me to come in to talk to their sales professionals about social media.
And it was really interesting, because there were about 100 sales professionals, maybe 75; and the first two rows were older gentlemen, definitely in their 50s.  They sat with their arms crossed and it immediately told me that you feel like you don’t have time for social media, it is a waste of your time, and you just want to build relationships by seeing people in person, shaking hands and signing contracts.  And it was my job in that training session to make sure that they understood that they could do some really good social selling.  And by the end of the presentation, they were all very relaxed and leaning forward, and you could tell with their eye contact that they were onboard.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good.  And I think that is helpful, in terms of making real time adjustments if you sense that’s the vibe, then maybe it’s good to go straight there, in terms of, “Maybe you think that social media is all just a bunch of silly food images, but in fact check out this amazing case study, and that one.  There is for real money to be made here.”  Versus, if you have a bunch of folks who are already sort of gung-ho, it’s like, “Yeah, yeah, we know that, Deirdre.  We don’t really need to hear how it’s great.  We’re already onboard with it being great, so let’s get to the cool stuff here.”

Deirdre Breakenridge
Exactly.  So, knowing their expectations are also just knowing the way that… It’s habits in a sense, especially with sales professionals – they have certain preferences and habits and they’re hard to break into a new way of thinking.  So, you’re going to see a lot of body language when you have to change a mindset.

Pete Mockaitis
So the arms crossed is one.  Any other kind of key indicators you’re looking for?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah, I watch body language.  Sometimes it’s directly aimed at me.  The eye contact is really important, the way somebody is sitting in their chair, if their body language is more open versus the crossed arms, as we said.  But I also notice personality through body language, and confidence, and how that person is feeling about themselves.
So I do have a podcast called Women Worldwide, and we talk a lot about women and empowering women.  And I notice the body language between men and women is sometimes very different.  And the power poses that are going on within the audience – sometimes the way men are sitting with the elbow pop, where they’re also kind of spread out with their materials, where women are more tidy and neat and maybe they’re sitting in a fashion crossing their legs and arms at their sides or in front of them.  So that also tells me a lot about your personality and how you’re feeling, even as far as how you’re going to feel about the topic.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood.  So then, I’d love to get your take when it comes to effectively capturing attention, regardless of where folks are currently with their body language or their receptivity.  Are there any sort of universal practices you use to command attention at the beginning?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah, I think that the best way is to let people know that this is about them.  Some of the ways that you can do that – I do it myself whenever I do a training session.  And if it’s 15 or 20 people, the minute I start I’m like, “Selfie!  We’re going to take a picture, we’re all going to put it on social media”, because it says you’re in it together.  So that’s that instant connection, so that’s one way.
Sometimes it’s, and I’ve used this one in a larger group on stage, where you want to use something around your environment or the event to hook people in immediately.  So I remember when I was going to London to keynote the FutureComms Conference.  And I’d never been to London before; I was all excited about it.  And I remember sharing this story on stage that when I got to the airport and I was with the immigration officer, and she said, “Why are you in London”, and I said, “Well, I am keynoting the FutureComms Conference”, and she said to me, “Really?  What is the future of communications?”
So on stage when I shared, “The immigration officer asked what’s the future of communications – well, my goodness, that is such a burning question.  That made me feel really good and that’s why we’re here today.”  And the audience really appreciated the story, because it was about them, it was about the topic, and it was also about the fact that I was in London and talking to the immigration officer.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m always nervous when they ask.

Deirdre Breakenridge
I know, right?  That’s so funny.  And then there are other just quick tips.  Get your audience talking right away.  So, sometimes you’ll see the technique of, “Raise the hands”, or, “What do you think about this topic?  Please share.”  And you get two or three people to share.  And then the best part is that whatever information you can get at the beginning, don’t forget to somehow be on your feet and work that in later to bring up that person and that scenario again, which also gets everybody back on their toes, like, “Oh, she mentioned a name.  Is she going to call on me?”  So that’s another way to connect with your audience.
And I think one thing that I’ve always said in any presentation setting that gets attention is your preparation, like know your material.  The first five minutes, know your material like the back of your hand, and show your passion.  And that really, really is appreciated and noticed right away.  And if you can do that within the first five minutes, your audience will stick with you throughout your presentation.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig it.  Yes, yes.  And I also want to get your take on when it comes to, if you have some tough questions coming your way, whether they’re tough because it’s tricky, you don’t know the answer, or they’re tough because it’s clear that they dramatically disagree with you and they’re making that oh-so-clear with their body language and intonation.  How do you deal with that situation?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So sometimes for tough questions, if you have an opportunity to set the ground rules around how people are going to participate and how questions will be asked – sometimes having those guidelines and being more specific around your Q&A can really, really help you to let people know that… Not to say that tough questions won’t pop up, but if a tough question pops up, you could say, “You know what?  I don’t have that information right now, but I am going to refer you to XYZ in the company, so that you can speak to him and we’re going to deal with that offline.”  And then you could move on.
So somewhere along the lines having the guidelines really helps, because you don’t ever want to ignore the question.  So that technique that I just used that, “I’m the expert on this, but I would prefer you speak with so-and-so” or, “I can get you that later” – that really helps.
There’s always the option of when the tough question comes in and it is around your area of expertise, sometimes what I do is a repeating of the question and a restating in a way that makes it not as tough and a little bit easier for me to answer, so that I can get the right information forward and everybody’s going to understand.  If there’s any part of it that I can’t really address, then I can go to that, “Let me speak with you later offline and get you the information, the other part that you need.”
You can also at any time kind of answer, be concise… So if it’s a tough question, you know you have to answer it – just don’t open Pandora’s box.  I think sometimes when tough questions come in, people tend to go on and on and on, and it’s almost like… I do a media training course too.  Reporters will ask you a question and they hope that you just go on and on and on.  You’ve got to cut it off, because the more you say, the more you open up that box to tougher questions.  So be really concise in your answer, and that also helps with tough questioning.
And this is my last one –  if you can clarify anything through research that you’ve done, through stats and studies that you know… It’s almost like you might want to arm yourself beforehand – know your audience, know the tough questions, think about tough questions in advance, and have some things ready maybe to answer those questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent.  And could you give us an example of that restating and framing the question so that it’s more manageable for you in practice?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Okay, so I was recently at a conference, and I was on stage with a client of the past who I’d worked with to rebuild his brand.  He basically violated FCPA laws and anti-bribery laws, went to prison, read my books, came out, asked me if I would help him with his messaging, his media interviews, and rebuild his brand.  And I believed him, so I did it.  And I’m glad I did because now we’re on stage together and he’s an incredible success story.
But the topic came up, the woman was talking about rebuilding a brand and it sounded like it was going to be really tough, because she started to share a personal story about how she was sexually harassed by her boss, but she was the bad guy, and it opened up this whole kind of area, a subject that’s really deep and really tough and really personal.  And I was on stage, so how do I address that, because I want her to feel comfortable?
So I restated; I said, “First of all, I want to thank you for sharing – that was very brave to share your personal story.  And I think what I’m hearing you say is that, from what you went through, you’re asking me, is it possible to rebuild if you have the damaged brand?  Would it be similar to what I did with Richard, my client?”
And she also asked this little piece of, “What do you want to say to the companies or the politicians or even Harvey Weinstein about sexual harassment?”  And I rephrased it in such a way to say, “For anyone who is dealing with that, you’re all operating in a fishbowl; you have to have transparency.”  So I kind of took what she said, structured it to make it just a little bit easier for myself and for the audience to understand, and to answer it in such a way, because it’s such a hot-button issue, so as not to have everybody screaming at each other over a topic that probably we could have talked to for hours.  Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Understood, yes.  Thank you.  Well, Deirdre, tell me – is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Well, we’ve covered so much.  I do other Lynda, LinkedIn courses.  I mentioned the media training, and I just rolled out with some marketing courses as well – go-to market planning and a marketing communications course.  And of course if anybody is interested in public relations, I have those courses too.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.  Alright, tell us then – could you start us off with a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Deirdre Breakenridge
You know what?  My quote is one that I’ve used on stage before, and I think it kind of speaks to my journey and how I like to reinvent.  And it’s Joseph Campbell, who is an American writer and he’s known as a mythologist, and he said that, “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path.”  And I know that kind of sounds dark, but for me, and I think what he’s trying to say, is that if you are following somebody else’s path, then you are not going to reach your full potential.  So, I’ve always tried to follow my own path, to have this open canvas, and that really helps you to reinvent yourself and move forward to tap into your true potential at all different phases of your life and your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you.  And how about a favorite book?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Oh, so I read a book back in my 20s – I think it was my late 20s – called The Four Agreements.  It’s by Don Miguel Ruiz – I think that’s his name.  It stuck with me because those agreements really teach you not to take things personally, to stand by your word, don’t make assumptions, be the best that you can be.  And I think that if you can carve out your life and be true to the four things, those four agreements, you’re going to have a much better life.  So that’s my favorite book.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh great, thank you.  And how about a favorite tool?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Okay, so Grammarly.  Doesn’t matter who you are, what you do – if you’re writing emails, if you’re writing reports, if you’re writing articles, Grammarly is really good.  You can get the free edition, but premium edition gives you a lot more benefits and is helpful.  And what I found with Grammarly, it actually teaches you to be a better writer.  So when I first started using Grammarly, it grades you and it says, “You’re 88% correct with your grammar and / or your spelling, but you need a little work.”  And now I’m like 100%.  I’m like 99-100%, which is great, because I need to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Interesting.  So it’s just checking your grammar, in terms of, is that the proper “your”?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yeah, it’s checking everything.  We’re told not to write in the passive voice, but to write in the active voice, and just being transparent, this is something that I struggled with for a long time.  And Grammarly just kicked that right out of me, which is great.

Pete Mockaitis
So the passive voice was used by you, and now no longer.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yes.  So it has really, really helped me, so that when I write something, I’m writing in the active voice.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.  And how about a favorite habit?

Deirdre Breakenridge
I guess it’s my, what I call “checking media headlines”.  So I’m a little addicted to all the headlines that come out on the cable stations, I have curated articles that I’m constantly checking, around my interests.  So that is definitely a habit.  On the lighter side, I do love Netflix, so that is a habit where my husband and some of our kids when they’re around, we watch Mad Men, Parks and Rec.  So yeah, that’s a habit too.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you.

Deirdre Breakenridge
You’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about, is there a particular nugget or piece that you share, a Deirdre original, that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, in terms of they’re nodding their heads, they’re taking notes, they’re Kindle book highlighting?

Deirdre Breakenridge
I always think that just “Be true to your brand” is really, really important.  And that goes to everything – who you are and what you value at every single touchpoint.  So I think that’s what I’m most passionate about as I’m educating many.  I am a professor at different universities, and as you know I speak and I do my training sessions.  So I think it’s just be true to your brand, and always listen.  Listen to people.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.  And Deirdre, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Deirdre Breakenridge
So I would say, check out my blog, which is my author’s website, kind of the portal to me.  That is DeirdreBreckenridge.com.  You can also check out Pure Performance, which is PurePerformanceComm.com, with two Ms.  And please, connect with me on LinkedIn or follow me on Twitter – I’m @dbreckenridge and I love to answer questions.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Deirdre Breakenridge
Yes.  I think that you all need to get out of your comfortable zone and get into your uncomfortable zone, because when you do that, you will learn and grow and excel.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright.  Well, Deirdre, thanks so much for taking this time and sharing your lessons learned and war stories.  It’s been a lot of fun.

Deirdre Breakenridge
Thank you so much.  I enjoyed our conversation.  I really appreciate the opportunity to be on your show, so thank you!

Dec 13

241: How to Have More Fun While Achieving More with Dave Crenshaw

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Dave Crenshaw says: "'Busy' is a white flag of surrender... not a badge of honor."

Dave Crenshaw gives his expert insights on the importance of scheduling in fun, meaningful breaks, and shares practical tips on setting up your own personal oasis and managing your time.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why having fun is critical to your success
  2. How to build your own oasis
  3. Perspectives to switch from a culture of now vs. the culture of when

About Dave 

Dave Crenshaw is the master of building productive leaders. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have received millions of views. He has written four books, including The Myth of Multitasking which was published in six languages and is a time management bestseller. As an author, keynote speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed hundreds of thousands of businesses leaders worldwide.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Pete Mockaitis
Dave, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Dave Crenshaw
Thanks, Pete. Glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, first and foremost, I think we need to hear a little bit about you and Chuck Norris. What’s the backstory?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, for those unfamiliar, Chuck Norris facts are jokes that have been making a round the internet for, gosh, close to 10 years now, and they’re just statements of just ridiculous strength and power that Chuck has, things like Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas, or Chuck Norris makes onions cry. And they’re fairly popular, and Chuck heard about these and put together The Official Chuck Norris Fact Book.

Well, in The Official Chuck Norris Fact Book he cites me and my book, The Myth of Multitasking, and it’s under the Chuck Norris fact, by the way, “Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird.” So, that is the connection and there are lots of things that I’ve done. I’ve been on Time Magazine, BBC, all these different places, but there’s nothing that will ever be as cool as being mentioned by Chuck Norris in The Official Chuck Norris Fact Book.

Pete Mockaitis
That is cool. And so, I guess Chuck was on board with your perspective in that multitasking or switch-tasking, if you will, is a thief and suboptimal and etcetera.

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, he does not believe in multitasking, and he believes in focusing on one thing at a time.

Pete Mockaitis
Boy, it feels like there’s a Chuck Norris fact.

Dave Crenshaw
There is actually. So, when that happened, I sent that out to my social media followers, and said, “I’ll give my books and The Chuck Norris Fact Book to somebody who can come up with the best Chuck Norris fact about multitasking.” And the winner was, “Chuck Norris doesn’t multitask. It’s never taken him more than one punch.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, we’re having fun. And so, I want to talk about your latest book The Power of Having Fun which is a compelling title, and I’m so intrigued to get the details on this about what I read thus far. So, could you give us your view? What’s sort of the main idea behind this book and why is it important now?

Dave Crenshaw
Sure. The first thing that I want to say is that I am a productivity expert. I help build productive leaders. So, when I’m talking about The Power of Having Fun I’m coming at it primarily from a productivity standpoint. And what I’ve learned, it’s sort of the cousin to The Myth of Multitasking. The Myth of Multitasking is about what you shouldn’t do. You shouldn’t try to do multiple things at the same time.

Well, The Power of Having Fun is about what you should do. If you want to be more productive you must make having fun a top priority in your schedule. It is something that you should put in your calendar and protect just as much as you protect an appointment with your most important client, with your boss, with anyone who is critical to your success because it is critical to your success.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Dave, this is a message I love to hear because I’m subject to some of those, I don’t know, guilt things about not doing or achieving enough, or “should I be having fun in this moment” type things, so I love this thesis. So, could you back it up a little bit? Like it almost sounds too good to be true. Like, why? Why is having fun this important?

Dave Crenshaw
Sure. Well, I can back it up. The first thing that I want to say, though, before I go into any kind of studies or research or science behind it, is I am less interested in the research of others and more interested in the research or the experiment of you. What that means is sometimes we get all lathered up with all these studies and statistics.

And what really matters is, “Does this apply to you?” So, rather than taking my word for it, and going, “Well, that’s what everybody should do,” I would encourage people who are listening to this to test it, to put it into application into your life, maybe just for two weeks, and try that experiment because, ultimately, that is the most powerful proof that I can offer.

And what I believe you’ll find is what many of my leadership clients have found which is that when you make fun a priority you get more done, you’re more productive, you’re happier, and you’re more creative.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah, I’m with you there that, certainly, like that’s where the rubber meets the road and sort of the ultimate bottom line there is not so much that it worked for this population of people studied over at the University of such and such. But is it going to work for you?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
But just so that the listeners get fired up, and me fired up, about doing such a test, could you share some of that research or data that suggests it’s extremely probable that if we do this test we will like what we see?

Dave Crenshaw
Sure. Well, my favorite one is it comes from a study, and this is the actual study title, The Role of Dopamine in Learning, Memory and Performance in a Water Escape Task.

Pete Mockaitis
Water escape. I’m thinking of Harry Houdini right now.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, yeah. This was published by the University of Washington not too long ago. And what it was is a study to show the role of dopamine in how well a mouse could learn and perform over time. So, what they did was they had two different groups. They had a group that had naturally-occurring dopamine in their body, and then a group that was deprived artificially of dopamine occurring in their body.

Now, if you’re not familiar with what dopamine is, it is the motivation-inducing chemical that your body naturally creates when something enjoyable happens, like having fun, like taking a break, whatever is fun for you, reading a book, going for a walk, playing video games, whatever it is, your body releases a little dopamine into your system.

Pete Mockaitis
Like even the dark side of fun.

Dave Crenshaw
That’s a whole different topic though. Here’s the thing, when mice had dopamine in their system, naturally injected, they learned faster and better. In other words, their performance over time improved, they got better and better at escaping from this little water task that they had setup.

The mice, though, that had been deprived of naturally-occurring dopamine, their performance got worse over time. In other words, the more they did it the worse they got at it. They didn’t perform better, they got slower, they made more mistakes. Now, here’s where it comes into our world. We aren’t mice in a maze but many people treat ourselves as if we are.

We deprive ourselves of having fun which creates that naturally-occurring dopamine, which means that when we do that, we’re getting worse at our performance. Every single day that you persist at your desk with skipping those vacation days that you should’ve used, you’re not getting better. And, in fact, the research backs that up as well.

Project Time Off found that when people take more than 10 days of vacation a year they were more likely to receive a raise and get promoted than those who did not take all their vacation days.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. All right. That’s good stuff. That’s good stuff. And do you have maybe one more you can lay on us with regard to research or studies. I’m feeling it.

Dave Crenshaw
So, well, I’m going to shift gears just slightly because it does relate. One thing that I talk about in The Power of Having Fun is the need to not just have an oasis is what I call them. An oasis is this fun break that you schedule in your calendar. And one thing that I found was that when couples take time to go on a date once per week, and that is also part of having fun.

When a couple has that time, according to the National Marriage Project, they are 3.5 times more likely to report being very happy in their marriages compared to those who did not spend that time together. And additionally, if they just had one dedicated time per week, they reported higher satisfaction in communication and sexuality in the bedroom.

And that is so critical because of other studies that show, that talk about the work-home resources model. In other words, when you’re happy at home you are more likely to succeed at work. And if you have people in your life that you care about, if you want them to be successful at work or at school, spend time with them. Not only will you both feel better about your relationship but you both will succeed more in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I like it. I dig it. So, convinced. So, let’s jump in, then. When it comes to fun, I mean, fun is fun. We like it. We’d like to have some more of it. And so, I’d like to get maybe a bit of perspective when it comes the work time versus fun time, although, hopefully, work is fun but dedicated fun, rejuvenation, non-work time. Is there sort of like a sweet spot or a ratio? Or how do we think about kind of the relative application of precious time between the two?

Dave Crenshaw
Sure. So, I define an oasis as something that is brief and recurring in your schedule, and you want to have oases of different scales. You want to have a daily oasis, a weekly oasis, a monthly oasis and a yearly oasis. Let’s knock down the yearly first or cover it. That’s usually what people refer to as a vacation, all right?

So, we want to make sure that we’re keeping that and having that, but that’s not enough. It’s too far in between. We’re depriving ourselves for far too long a period of time. So, we also want to have once a month, perhaps a half-day or a day that we take that is reserved in advanced just for us to relax and enjoy ourselves, do something that’s fun.

Then once a week, you have something that’s a little shorter, maybe one to two hours once per week that you relax and enjoy this oasis. And then, finally, you have a daily oasis that’s occurring once every day that’s in the neighborhood of 30 minutes to an hour, and that can be anything from watching your favorite Netflix program to working on a hobby, whatever it is that you find enjoyable.

But all of these should not be something that you fit in the seams. The problem, the mistake that many people make with having fun is they do it after everything gets done. They say, “Well, once I do this then I will be able to have it.” But instead we want to have a clear commitment in our schedule of when that’s going to occur.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, when it comes to the scheduling, any pro tips for scheduling well?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, the first thing is just to do it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Dave Crenshaw
That sounds so basic yet I’d worked with executives all around the world and I’ll tell you that people are not using their calendar the way that they should. There’s way too much – gosh, what I’d say? Just kind of going with the flow, and that’s not just a problem with having fun, it’s a problem with time management in general. So, you want to get in the habit of using that calendar as a time budget, a commitment in your calendar.

The next thing I would say is try to find natural ebbs and flows in your day. So, there are typically times in the day where you’re going to have more downtime, you’re going to be more relaxed, or not as many interruptions. That’s usually a good time to schedule one of these oases.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m very intrigued by something you said there with regard to you see this with lots of your clients, there’s calendar misuse, there’s way too much going with the flow. Can you expand upon that a little bit? What do you mean by that? And what’s the superior alternative?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, what I mean by that is we are driven by the culture of now.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Dave Crenshaw
The culture of now says, “If someone asks me a question, I have to respond to it now. If I’m going to do something, I need to do it right now.” You know, I got a neighbor who does, just kind of as a side hobby, does T-shirts for people. And she said to me, this is almost before, she said, “If someone wants me to do it, I don’t want them to tell me the date by which it gets done. I want them to tell me, ‘I need this tomorrow.’”

Pete Mockaitis
They’d want that.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, they’re driven by the adrenaline. But the problem with the culture of now is that it contradicts itself. You cannot do it all now. And if you’re allowing all the inputs to come at you at once you are setting yourself up to try to multitask which is going to really screw things up. So, the superior method is to move to the culture of when.

The culture of when relies upon the calendar, and says, “I am going to work on this project, and this is when I’m going to do it. I’m going to respond to your quick questions, and this is when I’m going to do it. I’m going to make these T-shirts, and here’s the time that I have dedicated in my week to making T-shirts.” That is far superior, it helps you live a more relaxed and less stressful life, and creates opportunities for having fun as well.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, Dave, I’ve seen this in my own life, and I think that in some ways it’s just a matter of getting real about what are the commitments that are actually are you committed versus what resources or time do you really have available, and thus what is actually going to get done versus what is not going to get done.

And to be in the driver seat for actually making those decisions as opposed to, I don’t know, sometimes I feel like a crazy person just like, “Oh, the next thing. Oh, the next thing,” as opposed to getting real, like, “No. In fact, you’re overbooked, you’re overcommitted, overscheduled, and it’s an impossible fantasy to believe that all of those things will be done. And so, it’s sort of like endure the pain now of realizing it ain’t going to happen, and then just decide to schedule, budget the time in a way that is most aligned with your highest order of objectives.

And I know you’ve heard of this and I’ve shared it, but from time to time, you know, everything is sort of descends at once and it’s like, oops, it’s time to take a step back and recollect and get real about the time allocations.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, and when you talk about that one thing that really comes to mind is how so many people right now are wearing the busy badge as a badge of honor, “How are you doing?” “Well, I’m really busy,” as if that means that we’re being successful. And the reality is the busy is a white flag of surrender not a badge of honor.

It’s showing that you cannot control your time. What really matters is what results are you getting. In fact, I teach people, I teach my clients that if anyone says, “I’m busy,” to follow up by saying, “Great. What results are you getting?” And what you’re trying to do is shift your mind away from perpetual motion to productivity.

Productivity is not about perpetual motion. It’s about finding your rhythm, and The Power of Having Fun reinforces that, because so many people feel that taking a break to have fun is not productive but in fact it’s part of that rhythm. Taking that downtime is giving you the ability to really perform at maximum levels when you go back to work, and that’s really what rhythm is about.

If you think about rhythm in a song, there are periods of high intensity, there are middle periods that are sort of drifting along, and then there are silence, and all of those things come together to make a beautiful piece of music. It’s the same thing with our personal productivity.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. I dig that. Well, so then, yes, back to having fun, you know, and these oases. I’m curious then, it seems like we have our own intuitive sense for what we like to do, what we find to be fun. But I’d love to know are there some kind of particular components of these oases that make them extra-rejuvenatingly awesome?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting. You would think that people could figure out what’s fun for them yet, gosh, a lot of very successful executives that I worked with, when you ask them, “What do you do for fun?” there’s a very long pause.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like, “I forgot. I haven’t done it much.”

Dave Crenshaw
Right. Right. So, one of the steps in The Power of Having Fun is discovery, is going through that process. And one of the things that I did in the book was kind of fun, was I surveyed 500 children from all across the US and asked them two questions. The first question, “What do you like to do for fun?” and number two, “What would you say to an adult who has forgotten how to have fun and be happy?”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, nice.

Dave Crenshaw
And the list that was generated that I put in the book, of all the activities that kids like to do for fun had a purpose. It’s not just, “Oh, this is cute. Look at what kids say.” What I’m doing is asking adults to answer the question, “What did you used to do for fun?” When you were a kid you knew how to have fun. If someone says, “What do you do for fun?” there’s no hesitation. You got a list. My kids have a list of things that they can do to have fun.

And so, what you can do is you don’t have to act like a kid. Personally, I believe adults should like adults. I know some people have a different philosophy on that. But what you can do is find the adult equivalent of what you used to do as a child. So, for instance, I used to like to play with Legos, so perhaps building models is a way to do it. Or maybe doing more advanced Legos, or building something else, right?

Or if you like to play outside, you like to run around maybe you can start doing mountain biking, or walk the dog, or whatever it is that’s enjoyable to you. So, you call upon the wisdom that you had when you were a child to figure out what to do for fun as an adult.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. That’s good. And so, then, so you’re reflecting back, “Okay, when I was a kid what did I like to do and what could be some grownup equivalence?” Any other sort of pro tips in the discovery phase?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, another thing that you want to do is make sure that you’re focusing on something that is constructive not destructive, and that goes back to your comment about sex and drugs and stuff like that. It’s important to recognize that when I talk about having fun I am talking about things that build you up and make you happier or don’t have negative consequences.

And one example of this is one female executive that I worked with. She determined that for her, one of her little moments of fun in the day was to enjoy a piece of chocolate, it was just to sit and savor that and enjoy that. And for her that’s not a problem but if somebody else has an eating disorder, using food as a potential reward is not what I’m talking about. So, in that case you’re going to want to find something else that builds you up.

You also want to find things that are well within your budget or free. We’re not talking about spending lots of money and it is not necessary to spend lots of money. Another female business owner that I worked with, for her, her daily oasis was to go for a walk, and she put it in these particular terms. She said, “I want to go for a walk down the hill, go see Bessie the cow,” which there’s a cow pasture near where her office was, “and pat Bessie on the nose and talk to her a little bit and then come back.” For her that was enough of an oasis.

So, let’s make sure that it’s constructive, that it’s cheap to free, and that it is, as I mentioned before, that it’s brief.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. Well, so now, working through your stages here, we sort of naturally organically covered it, we got the permission to play because we’ve seen, “Hey, there’s real research that the dopamine is going to make you better. It’s powerful.” Getting to the bottom of what’s fun and scheduling it. When it comes to putting it on the calendar you said, “It’s key just to do it instead of going with the flow.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And to acknowledge the ebbs and flows and rhythms of when you can do that scheduling. I’m curious, are there any kind of patterns you see in terms of beginning the day, end of the day, lunch, or are just kind of tend to make a lot of good sense for a lot of people?

Dave Crenshaw
Usually, I see this right around lunch or at the end of the workday or in the evening. Those are kind of the three major places where most people put their oasis. Typically, in the morning people aren’t ready for it yet. They want to go to work, they’re ready to do work, but there’s nothing wrong with taking that break in addition to lunch.

And notice that I emphasized that it is not lunch. Lunch is what you need to fuel your body then the oasis is what you need to fuel your emotion and your energy. Two separate activities. But those are typically the three major places where people end up scheduling it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then how about protecting that time you’ve scheduled. How do you do that effectively?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, so protection, stage four, that’s about looking at some of the things that could get in the way. So, the perspective that I come from as I say, “You want to think of these as different diseases that can creep into your life and you want to inoculate yourself against them. You want to have a strategy to prepare yourself against them.”

For instance, let’s talk about the busy bacteria, right? We talked about how busy is a problem. And so, one thing that we want to do is get in the habit of scheduling buffer time in our day. And buffer time is basically scheduling space for nothing. And that sounds like, “My gosh, who is this guy telling me to schedule time for nothing? How can that be productive?” And I will tell you that it’s one of the keys to being highly productive especially in our day, in the 21st century.

You know, back 34 years ago when people talk about time management and productivity, it was about maximizing every minute, every hour that you had on your schedule. In the 21st century, we have a radically different problem. Our problem is time protection and time reclamation. We are going to get interrupted because of the pace of technology, so we must have extra space in our schedule to accommodate for those interruptions not scheduling our calendar to a razor’s edge.

So, how does that relate to having fun? Well, if I’ve scheduled my calendar right to the minute and then fun comes up and I’m behind because I got interrupted earlier in the day, then what happens? “Oh, well, this doesn’t matter. I need to take care of work, right?” But if we have that buffer space, and if we’re living well within our means in terms of the schedule, we will feel that we have enough time to have fun which we should.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. And so then with the buffer space, so you schedule time for nothing. So, it’s interesting, I guess I’m thinking about my email inbox and how it lately has been expanding. And so, then when you say schedule time for nothing, it’s not even scheduling time for inbox clearing which I’ve been thinking, “Maybe this is what has to happen if this is ever going to go down,” but rather to just nothing-nothing.

And so, I’m wondering though do you have like a game plan in terms of, “Okay, if I schedule time for nothing, and then in fact nothing comes up, is there like the backup statement or is this just like, I will sit in silence?”

Dave Crenshaw
Oh, no. Of course, if that time comes up and you don’t have anything then you could use it to help check your inbox or do whatever you want to do. But the thing is when that happens then you feel like you’ve got extra time rather than feeling like, “I can’t keep up with all this. It’s too much.”

And, by the way, what you’re bringing up in terms of just getting your inbox to zero, again that’s a different topic I cover in my course Time Management Fundamentals on LinkedIn Learning. And in that I take people through the entire process of creating a time management system so that you’re bringing your inbox to zero on a regular basis.

And that sort of highlights something that I mentioned in the book which is having good time management, having solid principles that you’re living is an important component of making sure that you’re having this oasis in the day. Because if you’re completely out of control with your time management, if you can’t keep your desk organized, if you can’t keep up with the papers and the email and everything that’s coming at you, then, yes, what I’m asking people to do to have fun is going to become a very tall order.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, the final stage is just enjoying the oasis. How does one enjoy fun all the more?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, so this one is a really fun one. Whenever I think about this principle of enjoyment I think of one client that I had, and she told me how she was on vacation. She was at a beautiful tropical location, she’s sitting down enjoying the surf and, well, the surf and the sand is around her, she’s got a tropical drink next to her, and then she’s on her phone scheduling, planning her next vacation.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dave Crenshaw
And she said, “Holy crap, I have a disease.” And so many people have this disease. When fun things happen to us they’re unable to take them in. I’ve experienced this in the past where you have something wonderful happen to you and it just bounces right off of you, and that’s so much a symptom of the multitasking world that we’re living in, our inability to feel it yet we must take time to allow our body to take it in so that we can get that precious dopamine in a positive way.

So, here’s the three-step system that I talk about in the book I gave to this client, and it’s head, heart, mouth. And it’s always helpful to actually point to the body parts to reinforce this in your mind. You point to your head, you point to your heart, you point to your mouth, and here’s how it works.

Head. You intellectually acknowledge something great that happened. So, new instance of my daughter giving me this wonderful thank you card. I intellectually say, to my mind, “That was great to get a card from my daughter. That was enjoyable.” Now that sounds very clinical, and it is. It’s designed to be.

Pete Mockaitis
“I enjoy this experience.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, exactly. And it’s supposed to be like that because what you are doing is you’re stopping your brain and saying, “Whoa, don’t move to the next thing. This was good.” Okay? Then we go to the emotional aspect of the heart by asking a question, “How did this make me feel?” This creates an open loop that the brain must close.

So, now I have to think about, “Well, it made me feel really good. It made me feel like I’m a good dad that my daughter would take the time to write this card to me,” whatever it is that comes to your mind. And then we move to mouth which is an acknowledgement, a verbal or written, some sort of external acknowledgement.

So, you can say out loud, “This was great to go on this vacation.” Or, in the case of this card that my daughter gave me, I’ve made another card for her and gave it back to her, and said, “Thank you so much for doing this.” I’m a very practical guy. This isn’t touchy-feely stuff. This is brain science.

What you are doing is you’re strengthening the neural pathways of enjoyment. You’re strengthening your enjoyment muscle and you’re restarting your ability to actually feel good when good things happen to you. It’s a simple principle but it’s powerful. If you practice it over and over, it will completely change your perspective on what’s happening around you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Awesome. Well, Dave, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, just if you’re curious about it and not sure if you want to buy the book, you can dive in by taking, there’s an assessment, a free assessment you can get at PowerofHavingFun.com. It’s a 21-question assessment called the Fun Scorecard and you can check your score and find out how well you’re doing in terms of having fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Thank you. So, now can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dave Crenshaw
It’s probably not going to be what you expect but I do mention this in the book, and the quote is, “Blessed is he who expects nothing for he shall never be disappointed.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Please elaborate.

Dave Crenshaw
Well, so much of happiness in life comes from a matter of expectations met or exceeded. And where people get themselves into trouble is they set expectations or even just kind of go with the flow and create expectations that other people have for them without really being conscious about it. And instead, if you go through life with saying, “You know what? I don’t know what’s going to happen. I can’t expect what’s going to happen,” then when great things occur, you are more likely to be happy and more likely to be successful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I dig that. So, now, at the same time, Dave, I’m wondering about like, you know, should we call them standards that we have for ourselves or colleagues that we work with?

Dave Crenshaw
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
So, in a way a standard is kind of like an expectation, like, “You have met my expectations or you have exceeded my expectations.”

Dave Crenshaw
I look at it a different way.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Dave Crenshaw
I use the word values. I use the word vision and values. A vision is where I’m trying to go           in my life, it’s a place that I’m trying to accomplish. And I do think that we should set our visions high. And values are the ways in which we live our life. But you said an interesting thing which is other people not meeting that standard, and if you make your happiness dependent upon other people meeting your expectations you will always be disappointed.

You cannot control the actions of others. Even if you’re a boss and people are getting paid to do stuff, you cannot control their actions. All you can do is get them excited about the result that you’re trying to get and get them on your side. There’s a very big difference, and a kind of – this is a whole other subject – of hinting at the difference between managing and micromanaging.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Dave Crenshaw
You mean besides mine?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dave Crenshaw
You know, I’m a big fan of 7 Habits by Stephen Covey. That was probably the book that really inspired me to do what I do. So, yeah, I think there’s a lot of great wisdom in there that I lean on still to this day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite tool?

Dave Crenshaw
You know, my favorite tool of the moment, there are lots of tools right now. I’m really enjoying my Google Home Mini and I use it in my office, and I’ve got all my lights setup to it and all sorts of things. And I’ve found that it saved me a ton of time.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. What activities were you doing that have been displaced?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, if you do as much video as I do, you see I have a whole setup in my office. So, now, in fact let’s see if we can even get it to do it. If you can hear it in the background, say, “Okay, Google. Turn on everything.”

Pete Mockaitis
Neat things, huh?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, so it turned on my whole setup in my office, and I find myself asking it questions all the time, and it’s super convenient. So, again, I’ve got lots of tools that I love to use but right now that’s the one that I’m thrilled with.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. And how about a favorite habit?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, it’s going to sound like it’s redundant but, honestly, my favorite habit is what we’re talking about, and I didn’t mention what my daily oasis is. I’m a geek and my daily oasis is to play video games for 30 minutes at the end of each day. And that habit, I cite as one of the reasons why I am successful and, perhaps more importantly, why at 5:00 o’clock each day when my children come into my office, I am able to focus on my family and be present with them for the rest of the night instead of continuing to think about work.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And is there a particular nugget you share in your courses or your trainings that seems to really connect and resonate, getting folks nodding their heads and taking notes and such?

Dave Crenshaw
Boy, I’ll just call the first thing that comes to mind, and it sort of dovetails with what we’ve been talking about. And here’s the principle: you can do anything you put your mind to doing just not all at the same time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. And, Dave, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, again, you can find out more about the book at PowerofHavingFun.com and you can also reach me, I’ve got my blog, I send out a new video every week at DaveCrenshaw.com

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action that you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, try this, try The Power of Having Fun for two weeks. Measure where you’re at right now. On a scale of zero to ten, how much energy, how much focus you have at work? Then schedule a daily oasis every day, short ones, just 30 minutes for two weeks. Do it and then re-measure where you’re at, and let’s see whether or not the experiment works for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Dave, thank you so much. This has been a real treat and it’s fun, and it’s license for more fun, so win-win. So, thanks for all that you’ve shared and good luck in all that you’re up to. I hope that you just keep rocking and rolling and spreading this good word.

Dave Crenshaw
Great. Thank you so much for the opportunity, Pete. Appreciate it.

Oct 30

223: Becoming Happier at Work with Dr. Annie McKee

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Annie McKee says: "If we're not happy at work we're not going to be happy anywhere else."

Famed executive coach Annie McKee makes the case linking increased happiness to increased work performance…and shows how to improve both at once.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Best practices for more happiness at work
  2. How following your “shoulds” can undermine happiness
  3. Key clues to help discern when something’s wrong at work

About Annie

Dr. Annie McKee is a Senior Fellow at the University of Pennsylvania where she teaches and is the Director of the PennCLO Executive Doctoral Program. She is the bestselling coauthor of three successful books published by Harvard Business Review Press: Primal Leadership, with Daniel Goleman and Richard Boyatzis (2002); Resonant Leadership, with Richard Boyatzis (2005), and Becoming a Resonant Leader, with Richard Boyatzis and Frances Johnston (2008); and is the author of Management: A Focus on Leaders (Pearson/Prentice Hall 2014). She advises leaders around the world, and is a regular contributor to Harvard Business Review

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Oct 23

220: Mastering the Art of Bouncing Back with Barry Michels

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Barry Michels says: "If you're prepared for the occasional failure... you'll actually recover faster."

Hollywood psychotherapist Barry Michels talks about dealing with failure and how to bounce back even stronger.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to identify and defeat your inner saboteur
  2. An approach to getting over energy speed bumps
  3. How to bounce back faster from failures

About Barry

Barry Michels has a B.A. from Harvard, a law degree from University of California, Berkeley, and an MSW from the University of Southern California.  He has been in private practice as a psychotherapist in Los Angeles since 1986.  He’s referred to as one of “the most sought-after shrinks in Hollywood.” His client list boasts top writers, actors, producers, CEOs, and other creatives. In his books and public events, he shares the same Tools they use behind closed doors with their clients.

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Sep 06

201: How to be Happier at Work with Jennifer Moss

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Jennifer Moss says: "Go to gratitude first."

Plasticity Labs co-founder Jennifer Moss shares how to build psychological fitness to deal with workplace challenges.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Research insights into what impacts happiness at work
  2. The critical ingredient called the “granddaddy” of happiness
  3. Two minute exercises that slash stress and enhance effectiveness

About Jennifer

Honored as the 2016 Canadian Business Innovator of the Year, Jennifer Moss and her groundbreaking work on the power of happiness are transforming hundreds of schools and companies. Moss is the Cofounder of Plasticity Labs, a tech company that provides organizations with the tools to tap into employee sentiment and increase workplace happiness.

Moss is the author of Unlocking Happiness at Work and also the Cofounder of The HERO Generation, a non-profit that is implementing Moss’ gratitude-based HERO model in schools with the aim of decreasing teacher and student stress and increasing well-being and performance.

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