031: Excelling Across Cultures with Julia Atkinson

Pete Mockaitis
Julia, thanks so much for appearing here on the “How To Be Awesome At Your Job” Podcast.

Julia Atkinson
Well, thanks a lot for inviting me Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think we’re going to have a lot of fun here. You are a fellow ENJF according to the Myers-Briggs preferences. We can dig in to some of that. The first background piece I’d love to hear to from you is what’s the story? You’ve done some work in Germany, in China and US. How and why did you end up in each of these places to be almost in Chicago in now?

Julia Atkinson
Almost is good. Yeah. It’s a long story. To cut it short, I started working in Germany. I worked in startups. Eventually got offered … My husband’s got offered a job in China and we went. We only stayed a year and then ended up staying nearly 9. In China, I also worked in corporate for a year or so and then decided to do coaching. Have been in China 10 and a half years or so and then moved to America again for my husband’s job.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, welcome. It’s great to have you here.

Julia Atkinson
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
You have had a lot of experience doing coaching. Can you orient us a little bit to what that means? If you’re working with a team, what are the kind of the most frequently occurring kinds of issues that you’ll be tackling for those teams?

Julia Atkinson
Okay. As we said earlier, I’m also doing Myers-Briggs. One of the things quite commonly and that really doesn’t matter so much which culture I work in is that people try and find their synergies and work with the differences in a positive way rather than argue about the differences and the ways for working. Because I’ve lived in different cultures and worked with a lot of intercultural teams, culture comes also into the mix as a difference quite often.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Could you share a little bit what are some cultural differences that you’ve seen in terms of … You’ve done coaching work in the US. You’ve done coaching work in China. What are some key differences that are quite clear to you having worked in both spots?

Julia Atkinson
If you have mixed teams, this is when it gets most difficult obviously. One of the main things that people struggle with is the way we communicate. Chinese, for example, are very collectivistic and really  thing about the grouprather than about the individual. They also when they communicate have a very indirect communication style. If we look at the West and that’s the same in Europe as well as America. We are very direct and communicate in a very candid way which usually leads to conflict if you have mixed teams.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh certainly. Could you maybe bring that to life for us? Share an example of a conflict or misunderstanding that emerged as a result of these things clashing?

Julia Atkinson
One of the things that also you have in China … You need to control a lot more when you work with Chinese teams. You need to check and recheck and you need to give a lot of instructions because Chinese corporations orpeople working in China are used to hierarchy. In the West we quite often expect people to do stuff themselves and check in if there’s a problem and control less. One of the example I have was I was running a leadership workshop with a big chemical company. There was an issue with reusing some barrels. Someone got hurt and the guy had to then really leave the workshop. Even if you have procedures and protocols in place and say, “Don’t do this. This is not allowed. This is not safe.” You still have to constantly check what’s happening on the factory floor.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m just thinking and this is maybe my US-ness talking here but I’m just thinking, “Oh man. That sounds exhausting. Like a lot of effort and work to do the follow-up repeatedly.” Is your stance here that no way is a superior or they’re superior under particular circumstances? How should we think about that navigating the “hey you should do it my way” versus “well that’s just the way you operate and so I need to accommodate to you” versus negotiating, compromising somewhere in the middle. How do you navigate some of that?

Julia Atkinson
I really think you can’t say one way is better than the other. It’s just is what it is. I thinkit’s really important though when you work in China or with China to adapt yourself because you will ultimately you will fail if you don’t. You can’t really say, “Well, you have to all go my way or the highway,” going into that market because that’s just not going to work. I think you need to learn the language. You need to understand the culture. Just adapt yourself if you want to work with them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. That’s kind of the cultural adaptation piece. I’m curious here what have you seen that’s a universal? Like you know, human nature, people when they’re in teams whether it’s Germany or the US or China? Some issues you see within those teams again and again regardless of their location?

Julia Atkinson
I really think that people work with people. One of the big concepts they always have in all sorts of books on China is thisGuanxi, you know, the bank account of how good you are in someone’s books and how well connected you are and then calling on favors. I really do think this is exactly the same in the West. We just don’t have a name for it or different name for it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Say the word again and spell it.

Julia Atkinson
Spell it? Then I would have to use Chinese characters which will be difficult. In pin yin it would be Guanxi. G-U-A-N-X-I. That’s really how well connected … Yeah. How well are you connected and how can you call in favors and give favors as well.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s sort of a measure of your power, influence, stature?

Julia Atkinson
Right. I think honestly in the West no matter whether you work in corporate or elsewhere, it’s exactly the same. We just don’t name it. If you know someone, you probably get somewhere faster.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh certainly. That also include like the school you went to and like McKinsey & Company. Harvard Business School.” Those kinds of credentials that stack up.

Julia Atkinson
Absolutely and who you met in these schools and are buddies with for a long time. Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Mm-hmm). Okay. That’s a concept at work and people just are get more done when they have more connections with more I guess power or influence or capability. Does that show up in your coaching work in terms of conflict or difficulty in a team or is just sort of is?

Julia Atkinson
It does show up but not necessarily in conflict. It’s just there and Western is quite often, if they are over there, realize that they are not as well connected and that it takes so much time to go to dinners and banquets and meet people and not talk business at first. Quite often we get impatient with them because it’s so important to build the relationship first.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. There’s some interesting concepts that work. Can you also share when teams aren’t working so well, what are the issues that you’re helping them work through and how do you get there?

Julia Atkinson
Quite often it’s leadership teams and they have really not even joined business goals. Already they struggle to formulate a joint goal. Usually you have different personalities at play. As you know yourself if you’re an extrovert, you talk a lot so the introverts don’t get to see their bit. Usually don’t get asked enough. Don’t get listened to. If we talk Myers-Briggs you have the other dimensions of having some people that are very detailed oriented and have a lot of facts. Then the other big thinkers, big picture people who clash on that level and if you feel culture with the mix it gets really interesting because you take whatever finish extrovert is probably like an American introvert.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh that’s fascinating. Let’s talk about Myers-Briggs for a second then. I’d love to hear … We used to have these terms and I’d like to maybe get your take on … Do you have any particular favorite anecdotes or illustrations that you like to use to make them come alive? We’ll start with extroversion versus introversion. Those who prefer extroversion, energized by the outer world and people and lots of breath and activities. Introverts more energized by the interior world having some personal time, some quite time to reflect and recollect. How do you illustrate that concept with some favorite stories or illustrations for the teams you work with?

Julia Atkinson
I really like the bit when you say an extrovert does talk, think, talk again because they probably have to take something back. Then introvert think, maybe talk, and then think again. I quite like that concept because it really demonstrates quite well the big difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed. Have you seen that show up in terms of those uh-huh moments in your coaching environment like, “Oh, that’s what’s going on there.”

Julia Atkinson
You have that really a lot in Asia because … That’s great at China so that also is Taiwan and Japan.The way the indirect communication goes and this hierarchy in the companies makes introverts speak even lesser. Even extroverts don’t really speak up because of that. A lot of conflict doesn’t even get spoken out or spoken about. You have a lot of friction because people don’t talk about things.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. All right. How about on the sensing and intuition side of things? To orient others that the sensing folks tend to be more practical, detail oriented, tactical whether we need to go do now and the intuition preferring people tend to be more interested in kind of the big picture, the theories, the principles, the underlying things and the implications emerging from them. How do you see that show up in some harmonious and not so harmonious ways in organizations?

Julia Atkinson
What I usually do is when I have a group of people have an exercise about this I give the example of let’s imagine you have a colleague from the West come to the airport in Beijing. How do you direct them to the office? The N people, like you just group them upfront, the N people will quite clearly say, “We’ll tell him to get a cab and maybe give him my number and the address and that’s it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Julia Atkinson
The S people will go in so much detail and work out the way you could take the underground. The way you could take a taxi on Uber and where you get picked up with your Uber in Beijing airport and you go so much into details, data and fact. It’s really quite funny. I think this is then the conflict that arises out of that is on various levels in all departments and companies. You see that that some people just come with a lot of data and facts and some people just really don’t like the details.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh certainly. How about then on the thinking versus feeling preference? Here to orient, the thinkers tend to be making their decisions based on logic and following the rational reasoned out implications of something kind of like a lawyer or an engineer. Then the feelers are more interested in like the core values that are at work and how that affects people and the harmony. They’re kind of like a social worker or maybe a coach along those lines.

Julia Atkinson
A teacher. Yeah. Right.

Pete Mockaitis
How do you see that show up?

Julia Atkinson
I really think it’s … The feeling people get in the situation, right? Normally the thinkers operate with logic and deduct their conclusions. I always start with the teams to also make them see the synergies. I take a personal example of how we, back when my kids were very little, had to change our child minder because the one we had just couldn’t work the hours we needed. I got all feeling emotional and the poor woman needs to feed her family and went down that road and then my needed husband, who’s a thinker, to actually give me the logic and say, “Okay. How much does she earn? How much will the new one earn? How many hours can she work?” Really do this logic deduction and needed to combine both to actually then come to a decision.

Pete Mockaitis
What was the decision? Now, we need to know.

Julia Atkinson
It was the logic one.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. How about the final set of preferences? The judging versus perceiving. A quick recap. Those who prefer judging tend to be more oriented toward to a clear deadline. They want to get closure on things. Kind of wrap it up. What’s the game plan, the agenda, the timeline, all that sort of hash out. Whereas those who prefer perceiving like more things more open ended. Let’s go with the flow. Let’s see what arises. Let’s be kind of spontaneous and improvise as necessary because new information might come to light. In the judging versus perceiving world, what are some things you see show up?

Julia Atkinson
I think the best example is a J takes a P for dinner. The P gets ready very slowly. Runs into a neighbor on the way. Probably shows up late. Then picks up the menu when you’re there and goes and looks at the whatever, Sunday brunch menu, you’re there on a Friday night. As a J you’re like, “Why are you looking at that? You can’t pick anything from there.” “Well, I’m just looking. I want to know what’s out there. Maybe we’ll want to come back for brunch.” I think it’s really … As a J I look at the menu, I’m like, “Okay. I know what I want.” It doesn’t take long. I’m happy I’ve made a decision. I think this is … In the workplace of course can lead to a lot of conflict because the P people sometimes create a lot of stress for J by having like last minute requests for whatever strategy presentations and the likes. The J people can be really annoying by having all this planning and scheduling going on which quite often you’ll have to change anyway because life is change.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that’s a fun little rundown there. I enjoyed perusing your website and reading a big of your pieces when it comes to humility and assertiveness and navigating that effectively. What are some of your insights along those lines?

Julia Atkinson
One of the really big things for me was … This is even bigger if you compare China to America rather than China to any European country.Americans, looking at it from the outside, I feel are very good at self marketing and selling themselves. That’s just something in China people don’t do very much. It’s getting more but it’s not really done that much. In China you have quite often the big boss who just lets the actions speak for themselves and just the work. If the work is good, the leader is good. That’s very different here in America. Though we tend to self market a little bit. Germany probably not that much but in America that’s something that’s done heavily.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Julia Atkinson
That’s a very, very big difference for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s interesting. I’m wondering now where do you think is the optimal balance or best practice or I imagine different circumstances, situations call for different things there. What’s your takeaway having seen it both ways? What do you think is the approach that works for you or in many teams and organizations?

Julia Atkinson
I think it’s also a personality question, right? If you look at people like Jack Ma, he’s very good at selling himself. It’s not just a cultural question but I think probably Chinese working with Western corporations have to do it more. Have to be more assertive. Have to sell there and to achieve successes more. Maybe Americans definitely working with China have to do it a bit less. If you do it, you have to deliver. I think that’s the main takeaway.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Well, this is fun. This is fun. Tell me before I shift gears a little bit into hearing some of your favorite things with our fast facts segment. Tell me is there anything else that you really want to make sure that you share because it’s super useful for folks seeking to become more awesome at their jobs?

Julia Atkinson
I think if you work with a different culture just come with an open mind whatever the other culture is. Also take it with a grain of salt and a bit of humor because sometimes I think we just make it too big and it’s just not that important. The differences are not that big really. It’s people working with people.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s lovely. Okay. Well now, I’d love to hear a little bit. Can you share with us maybe first a favorite quote. Something that you find inspiring.

Julia Atkinson
I want to take Bruce Lee. “Be water my friend.” I can’t tell you why. Because having being thrown into a very different culture, twice now. In China having to have to learn the language as well. I think you need to be adaptable and water is … You need to be flexible. You know water if it flows in the river and across the stones long enough, it will shape the stone. I think persistence is also in there somewhere. I like this. I love the quote.

Pete Mockaitis
How about a favorite study or a piece of research you find yourself referring to often?

Julia Atkinson
I want to go back to the beginning. This positive outlook and that’s also working with different cultures. If you have a positive outlook and view of life, I think you do much better. I read a very, very good book which is called “Biology of Belief.” That one is by Bruce Lipton. What I like about it is that he says, “A cell will thrive and grow in a positive environment but it will wither and die in a negative environment.” I think you can take that on a big scale. It’s exactly the same for people.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. You mentioned one book. Is there another book you would put out there as among your favorites?

Julia Atkinson
I can give you like 10 awesome books. One of my really favorite books is “The Diamond Cutter.” I have to say I love that book. Another one … I can’t quite decide. I like both a lot. It’s called “Sleeping, Dreaming, Dying.”

Pete Mockaitis
Wow.

Julia Atkinson
Neuroscientists and psychologists speak to the Dalai Lama in this team and compare the science, the found science, newly found science with Buddhism and it’s just very, very good read.

Pete Mockaitis
That does sound fascinating. How about a favorite website or online resource?

Julia Atkinson
I really do like LinkedIn.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s where we found each other.

Julia Atkinson
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
You made a comment and I said, “Oh interesting.”

Julia Atkinson
Yeah. I shared something I really liked that you … A very good broadcast you did. I really think you find very … If you connected to the real people you meet and also keep your connections open enough to meet new people, you can find really, really good stuff on there. I do like LinkedIn. Another one I do like for short ideas I just found that. It’s called “The Idea Pot.” I really like that because they make it short. You can publish blogs but you have to keep it short and sweet. I like that one as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh great. How about a favorite habit? A personal practice of yours that’s really given you a boost to your personal effectiveness?

Julia Atkinson
I’ve got to say running.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Julia Atkinson
One of the things I do is run. For me that’s very mind clearing and gives me a lot of new ideas or how to tackle a problem. Helps me like to solve problems. If I have to decide on one habit, it will be running.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. How about sort of a favorite nugget that would you share during your programs? You really see people like nod their heads and go, “Ah yes,” or taking notes at accelerated rate. What’s something that you share that seems to really resonate with folks?

Julia Atkinson
One of the things I had a lot of reactions to is not only humility but patience. One of the things that seems to move people a lot is patience. Something that you can learn. Is it something that’s kind of innate. I find this subject very interesting for working and coaching people. Working with people and coaching people.

Pete Mockaitis
I hope you can learn it because I want some more of it. What are the findings so far?

Julia Atkinson
It’s a yes and no answer kind of. I think your get better if you’re self aware and know what triggers and you know your values then you can control the triggers and the way you react better. There is a certain … You can learn to deal with it better but I don’t think from being a very impatient, you’ll become the most patient person. I don’t think you can learn that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Okay. How about the ideal way to find you if folks want to learn more or get in touch with you. Where would you point them?

Julia Atkinson
I’d point them at my website or LinkedIn. It’s www.atkinson-coaching.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. How about a favorite challenge or parting words, call to action for those seeking to be more awesome at their jobs?

Julia Atkinson
Now, I have to give you another quote from “The Empire Strikes Back.” You probably know that. “Do or do not. There is no try.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Julia thanks so much for being here on the “How To Be Awesome At Your Job” Podcast. This was a lot of fun. I wish you all the best in your coaching and working with folks and all that you do.

Julia Atkinson
Thanks a lot Pete. It was great to talk to you. Thanks for having me.