Communication

Pete Mockaitis
Marc, welcome!

Marc Brackett
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’ve been excited to talk to you for a while. I discovered you because I was talking to AI, it’s like, “I want an app that just is very beautiful and easy to log in emotion, but in just a few seconds, but has a delightful interface and isn’t clunky.” And then it’s like, “Oh, you want How We Feel.”

Marc Brackett
Awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
And I was like, “Okay.” And so I tried it out, and I was like, “This is amazing.” And so then I asked AI, “Who was the mastermind behind this? He must be on my podcast.”

Marc Brackett
Well, I’m not the only mastermind, just so you know, but I appreciate that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, so tell us the story about this app, why it’s useful. You teamed up with the Pinterest folks, because everyone needs to know about it. It’s free and it’s amazing.

Marc Brackett
I appreciate that. Well, I mean, the backstory is that I wrote a book before my most recent book that’s called Permission to Feel. And it’s about why emotions matter and how do we get more skillful about understanding our emotions and labeling them.

And I was very fortunate that the co-founder, and then CEO of Pinterest, Ben Silbermann, read the book and he and I got to be friends. And then we just started this collaboration where we co-created this app that, who knew it would have three million downloads and hundreds of thousands of users every day.

And we’re really proud of this collaboration because it was bringing the science of emotional intelligence to technology that’s focused on creativity and beauty. How better can it be for someone, either one of us, right, to have that kind of collaboration?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, and it’s so delightful in a world where, you know, folks are taking vengeance on Adobe by reverse-engineering their software to have just a delightful, beautiful, functional, helpful world, doing-good app available.

I do it with my kids as well. It’s like, you’ve got the four bubbles of, like, high energy pleasant, low energy pleasant, high energy unpleasant, low energy unpleasant. And they’re the right colors.

Marc Brackett
You’ve learned the theory.

Pete Mockaitis
And the colors make sense. Like, high energy pleasant is, what color would we guess? Yellow. And then, you know, low energy, unpleasant, it’s blue. I just love everything about it. So this app is fun, it’s beautiful, but tell us, science man, is it useful and why?

Marc Brackett
I haven’t been called science man in a long time, but I’ll take it. Well, it’s not just an idea. It is the collaboration on deep research on emotion. So what do we know about how we understand our feelings? Well, there are two basic dimensions to understanding our emotion system.

There is a pleasantness aspect of it, so, “Am I feeling very pleasant in this conversation with you? Or am I feeling unpleasant? Do I feel like approaching the conversation? Do I feel like avoiding the conversation? Do I feel safe and comfortable? Or do I feel uncomfortable?”

Let me ask you that. Where are you right now on that pleasantness dimension?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s very pleasant so far.

Marc Brackett
Same here. So we’re we’re in that kind of pleasantness space. And then, you know, for me, it’s, I’m on the East Coast right now. It’s around 3:15 p.m., recording time. I’ll be frank, I’ve had a long couple of weeks. I’m about to go to India tomorrow.

My energy is a little like I’m low energy, but I’m also like wired tired, if that makes any sense. But I would say I’m more on the depleted energy side. So I’m expecting you to keep me going. How about you? Where’s your energy?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, mine is high just because I’ve been anticipating and looking forward to this for a while, and so my dreams are coming true, as we speak.

Marc Brackett
Look at that.

Pete Mockaitis
No pressure, Marc.

Marc Brackett
There you go. I’m feeling, I’m like “science man,” and you’re like, “dreams coming true.” This is a good deal for me. So it looks like you’re more in the yellow and I’m more in the green, which is fine.

It’s just what I find is that when you ask someone the question, you know, I’m going to ask you, like, “How are you feeling?” most people they’re like, “Fine,” “Good,” “Okay,” “Meh.” Not helpful. Not helpful if you’re a parent, if you’re a partner.

But if I said I’m feeling content or tranquil, “Oh, you know, Marc is in a good place.” Or, if you say you’re feeling ecstatic or elated, I’m like, “Wow, like, this guy has got, you know, some really strong, pleasant emotions about this episode.”

But on the opposite end, if you were to say, “I’m feeling down,” or disappointed, or hopeless, my goodness, like that’s, I got to do something about that. Or, if you’re anxious or overwhelmed.

So the app is designed to take what’s called the circumplex model of emotion, which is, you know, a technical term for a theory, and translate it into emotion space so that people can understand their feelings better.

So we’ve got those four quadrants, as you mentioned. Then we got the words in those quadrants. And in the app, we have 144 emotions and their definitions. Secret, there’s a little search button. You can do about 500 more if you like.

Pete Mockaitis
Didn’t know it.

Marc Brackett
Yeah. It’s not that conspicuous. So we’ve got to make that more obvious. But, yeah, you can. If you don’t find the word that you like, you can search for a word and it’s probably going to be there.

But I think, most importantly, one of the things that I’ve always felt strongly about is that if technology doesn’t do anything different than what you could do with a poster, then don’t bother.

But what’s cool about the app is that you can tag your feelings for things like who you’re with, what are you doing, where you’re at. And that’s interesting because then you start realizing, “Oh, I’m in the yellow when I’m with these people. I’m in the blue when I’m with those people. I am in the green when I’m working here. I’m in the blue when I’m doing that.”

And, importantly, to get at a deeper understanding of why you’re feeling the way you’re feeling, the app has an AI function where it’ll ask you questions, “So you said you’re in the yellow, you’re feeling energized. Like, what are you doing right now?”

And it keeps track of that, personally, for you to help you, you know, and can probe you to ask you questions so that you can have a deeper understanding, especially, for example, if you’re feeling, let’s say, hopeless.

You know, just get some insights. And then just, for now, I’ll just say that leads to a bunch of emotion regulation strategies. So, “Do you think you need a breathing exercise right now? Do you think you need to take a break? Do you think you need to reframe or rethink your situation?”

And then you can track it over time to look for patterns. So it’s pretty cool.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it is cool. I’m a bonafide fan. And in terms of, like, the value of precisely labeling emotions, so, one, it’s better for us to connect and understand each other and where we’re coming from. But you’ve also got some research in the books, saying that labeling your emotions precisely also aids us in our ability to cope, to regulate, to modify.

Marc Brackett
Yeah, that’s true. You know, think about it. You said you have children?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Marc Brackett
All right, so let’s do a little role play. Sound good?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Marc Brackett
So you’re my daddy and ask me how I’m feeling.

Pete Mockaitis
“How are you feeling, little Marky?”

Marc Brackett
“I’m upset, Daddy. I hate everything.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, what are you upset about?”

Marc Brackett
“I just don’t know. I’m upset.” So let’s freeze. Do you want to keep going?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there’s a number of pathways I could go down.

Marc Brackett
Let’s go.

Pete Mockaitis
But I guess I was thinking, it’s, like, “Where do you feel the upset and how?”

Marc Brackett
“I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I mean, is it in your eyes, like they want to cry? Is it in your stomach? Is it, like, ‘I’m sick’?”

Marc Brackett
“It’s in everything. Everything.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Okay. And how long have you been feeling this way?”

Marc Brackett
“I don’t know. Why are you asking so many questions?”

Pete Mockaitis
“I just want to understand you and where you’re coming from and what’s going on.”

Marc Brackett
“Okay. I don’t know.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Well, would you like to do something that might feel some other kind of way? Maybe have a fun adventure or food or what do you think?”

Marc Brackett
“I want ice cream.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, we can pause it there. It’s, like, ice cream may or may not be the appropriate move, you know, based on any number of factors, but I hear you. Like, we got a child who’s not saying much.

Marc Brackett
It’s tough. And I think, you know, for the parents who are listening to this, my guess is that you’re like saying, “Oh, my gosh, this is my life. This is why it’s like this endless cycle of craziness.”

And so, like, firstly, the word upset just has no meaning. Is the upset disappointment? Is it frustration? Is it anxiety? Is it sadness? Because we want to get granular. That’s the point of the work.

And what we really want to do is understand the why behind the feeling, which I was not giving you, because you weren’t really going there yet either. So imagine I say I’m upset, and then I’d say, you know, “I know that upset is kind of yucky, I get it. But what happened on the way home from school today that made you feel that way?”

And then you start realizing, “Oh, maybe it was on the bus. Oh, okay. So the bus ride stunk, huh? Did something happen on the bus? Was there, like, a weird conversation or, you know, did somebody say something?”

“Yeah, somebody made fun of me.”

“Oh, okay. I’m sorry to hear that, son.” My point is that we’re trying to get to the, from the big picture down to the narrow, because, then, you realize, “Oh, my son feels bad about himself. He’s not sad. He’s not angry. He’s maybe feeling shame.” And there’s the opening to the conversation to be helpful and supportive.

What happens with most kids, and we don’t have to do this whole thing on kids and parenting, by the way, is that we don’t really know how to say what we’re feeling. We get taught through social media and television.

For boys, we just yell, scream, say, “I hate everything. I’m upset. Get out of my face.” And then parents get triggered by that. And then you kind of don’t know where to go because you’re like, “My kid is not doing so well, and maybe it’s my fault and I don’t even know how to begin the conversation because I’m triggered.” And it doesn’t go anywhere.

And so the goal of all this work on emotional intelligence is to help people not get so activated, especially as the adult raising a kid; how to be present; and how to ask good open-ended questions to find out what the real feeling is because you got to name it to tame it.

And so disappointment is about unmet expectations; anger is about injustice; shame is about diminished self-worth. And if you know that, you have that knowledge as the dad, your way of talking to your kid and your strategy would probably be different.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, very good. Well, staying with the children angle for a moment, you mentioned Uncle Marvin a number of times.

Marc Brackett
I did.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you share who was Uncle Marvin? Why was he important to you? And how do you think about the Uncle Marvins in people’s lives, generally?

Marc Brackett
Great question. So, you know, I had a pretty tough childhood, meaning I grew up, I would say, lower middle class. You know, we had some things, but we didn’t have a lot of resources.

I have two brothers who are still my closest friends, but they had their own developmental challenges, some severe. And my parents were not coping well with that. And my mother needed to do a lot to help my brothers. And, at the same time, my father was working his ass off trying to make ends meet.

And, unfortunately, I was abused by my parents’ good friend during that time. And I didn’t share it, for the millions of reasons we know that people don’t share abuse, until I was 11 when my mother’s brother, Uncle Marvin, came into town.

And I was very fortunate that he happened to be writing a curriculum to teach kids about feelings, which is kind of like, “How does that happen to an 11-year-old who’s suffering from bullying and abuse to have this magical uncle pop into his house who’s running a curriculum to help kids talk about feelings?”

And that is my story. It’s a true story. And he was the first person who asked me how I was feeling, and listened. And so I told him that I hated life and I was really miserable. And he didn’t freak out. He just said, “We’ll get through it together.”

And just fast forward, you know, I’m now in my 20s. I’m going to college. I’m trying to figure out what I’m going to do with my life. And I just have this moment where I’m thinking about my life, and I’m realizing I want to be a psychologist and I want to write curriculum to help kids deal with their feelings.

So I pulled my uncle out of retirement, and we start writing a book that no one should ever read, this is 30 years ago already. And that led me to get a PhD in psychology to become a professor, to run the center, you know, to found the center at Yale, called The Center for Emotional Intelligence now.

And I’m proud to say that, you know, what Uncle Marvin did in one classroom, and with me personally, as of this year, has reached 10 million kids.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Beautiful. Well, that is delightful, and hooray for Uncle Marvin and all the Uncle Marvins for people. You shared in your studies and surveys that about only 35% of people have ever had a person where they felt they could just share all of their emotions, and that person would kind of be cool with it and help us work with them, and that is very sad to hear.

And my first head scratcher there was, “Well, wait a second. Well, what about, like, therapist counselors?” Like, allegedly, I saw 42-ish percent of folks in the US have ever, at least one time, interacted with a mental health person. Are we counting them in the number? Even the pros aren’t getting it done?

Marc Brackett
Well, the pros are not the same. You know, I want to differentiate clinical treatment from feeling seen and heard in your childhood and in your relationship. Most people don’t marry their therapists, which is a good thing.

But I think the point of my research is to really demonstrate that many kids, 65% of our kids, are growing up not believing they have anyone they can really talk to about their emotions.

And so what does that do? It makes you eat your feelings, hide your feelings, bang your head against the wall, do unhealthy things. And we don’t want people to do that. That’s not the habits we want people to develop.

And what I know from my research is that when you have that figure in your life, you’re healthier, happier, you sleep better, you have greater emotional intelligence, greater life satisfaction, deeper purpose and meaning in life. So why the hell wouldn’t we want to make sure everybody has an Uncle Marvin or an Aunt Maria?

But yet, people are afraid to be that person for other people. A lot of people say, “I don’t have the time,” or, “I’m scared,” or, “I’m not skillful.” I’ll just say really quickly, with the research, there are three big characteristics that show up. And it’s non-judgmental, good listeners, who show empathy and compassion.

So when people say, “I don’t have the time,” I kind of like get annoyed because we can all listen a little bit more. We can all show more empathy and we can all be a little less judgmental.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, well said. And so maybe, well, maybe I misunderstood your numbers.

Marc Brackett
That’s okay.

Pete Mockaitis
So the 35% is specifically referring to children as opposed to adults?

Marc Brackett
So in my adult research, I’ve also done research there, it ranges between 40% and 60%, so, really, it’s contextualized. But, you know, let’s say it’s around 50% of people in the workforce say they have someone, as an adult, that can show up for them in this way. It’s not enough.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Yeah, certainly. And then I’m thinking about that also in context of some of Jamie Pennebaker’s work on expressive writing and discussion, in which they shared with folks, “Hey, this is a really special opportunity. You could talk to someone with complete confidentiality about whatever you’re feeling.”

And I was like, “Oh, that’s really a sad comment if that’s really a unique, rare, special opportunity.” And yet it was. The folks in those studies were eager to take them up on that opportunity.

And, boy, it’s sad and it’s eye-opening. And I guess I did not know how blessed I have been, Marc, that this is the lay of the land, and the impact is huge. So, tell us, be non-judgmental, good listeners, empathy and compassion, if we’re thinking, “Oh, shucks, I want to be able to provide some of this for people,” any pro tips, top do’s and don’ts?

Marc Brackett
Sure. Well, I think what’s important is what’s not there. And so just as important as what shows up as the characteristics of these people is what doesn’t show up. And what doesn’t show up is fixer, advice-giver, problem-solver.

People are not really looking for that. It’s quite interesting to me because many of us fall into the trap, right, as a parent, as a partner, we’re like, you know, “It’s okay. Don’t worry about it.”

Or, we get so swept up in their feelings that we can’t process our own feelings because we’re so lost in the other person’s feelings. Or, we hijack them. I love the hijackers. I have a few friends that are like that.

It’s, like, they call it a check in and then we spend an hour talking about them. Or, the advice-giver, like, “I’m telling you what to do here.” The fixer just wants it over. The advice-giver wants to be the knower.

And so that’s not what we’re looking for. So what does it look like to show up with non-judgment? Good question. What do you think?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I guess there’s internal and there’s external. To show up with non-judgment, I guess internally, is we’re literally not judging in the sense it’s like, “Oh, that’s stupid. Like, “Oh, that was a pretty selfish thing.” So, internally, we are not judging from, like, a moral, casting a moral assertion about someone.

Marc Brackett
Moral certainty, right? Like, “This is the way it should be.”

Pete Mockaitis
So that’s internal. And then, externally, I guess it’s just like our tone and facial expression and word choice don’t suggest that we’re doing that. Like, “Why did you do that? Really? Ugh!” So, I mean, like just sort of not doing that.

Marc Brackett
You’re exactly right. And it’s hard to change the internal one because, you know, we’re brought up in a society that we’re biased without even realizing it. But you can become more aware of it.

And I think I was just doing a training for leaders before this recording, and we were talking about the difference between good judgment and giving people constructive feedback and being judge-y. And it’s different.

And so judgment is like, as a professor, like, “That’s the worst paper I’ve ever seen. Like, really? You have a PhD in psychology? You could have fooled me.” And there’s sometimes when I think that, I can’t lie, but I have the choice as to whether it comes out.

So there’s a lot of self regulation in being non-judgmental. It’s, like, you’re going to have the automatic response to the situation, but the question is, “Can you build the space to regulate?” That’s tough.

And so I think that’s the big one for non-judgment, and be more curious. The curiosity is key. Don’t be the knower. I think the judge knows everything. The learner is asking questions to get more curious.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, thank you, that’s excellent. Well, I want to, maybe, zoom way out. We’re talking a lot about feelings, emotions, and how we’re relating to them, how we’re dealing with feeling. It’s funny, me and emotions, I was shaped tremendously by Tony Robbins.

Marc Brackett
Look at you.

Pete Mockaitis
As a teenager, I wanted to be him. I wanted a Tony Robbins poster in my room because I loved his books. And other kids are into, you know, sports, music, movie posters. I was, like, “Can I get a Tony Robbins poster in my room?” They didn’t make them so I didn’t get one.

Marc Brackett
You’re supposed to have the Farrah Fawcett poster, but it’s okay.

Pete Mockaitis
But it was really tricky, and I think it was incomplete, if I may, as I’m learning decades later, that it seems like, with Tony Robbins, it seems like when it comes to emotions, I’ve got two approaches.

One is, you know, reject and suppress anything that is not “empowering” and enter into a peak state with power moves and visualizations and chest-pounding, jumping up, “Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!”

And, by golly, sure enough, that was pretty effective in terms of, “Oh, I don’t want to do this homework. Well, let’s get into a peak state and let’s do it.” And then the other part was, “Oh, emotions, they have a message for you. And so you need to decode them and then move on.”

Like, “Oh, you feel guilty? Well, you violated a value. Well, okay, note that. Okay, don’t do it again. And get out of that guilt right away.” And so I’ve come to learn that that’s sort of a shallow, incomplete relationship with emotions, although, there is truth to each.

We have some ability to change how we feel, and which might be wise at times, and our emotions can give us valuable information, but we could overdo it. So, tell me, what is your broad worldview on a helpful way we should think about emotions and our relationship to them?

Marc Brackett
So I think, you know, the Tony Robbins model, and many other people who are these motivational speakers, it’s almost like, “Don’t let your emotions get in the way of your goals.” And that’s a suppression or a denial or a plow through.

I think that works to a point, and you can do it, and I’ve done it. But your emotions creep up on you. And you can live for so long suppressing. I always say emotions pile up like a debt. And, eventually, that debt comes due.

I used to be a fitness instructor, and so I used to see people at the gym for six hours on the treadmill, thinking, “I’m getting my workout in.” What they were really doing is not going home to their partners that they were having a difficult time with.

And so if you don’t really work with your emotions, then you’re probably not going to have the best or the most elaborate well-being. And I think that it’s a both-and. I think we want to achieve our life goals and work, and sometimes we have to not allow our feelings to get the best of us and just put the blinders on and full force ahead.

But, at some point, we do have to recognize how we’re feeling. And then I’ll give you example, because I did some work with the Department of Defense, and I met some pilots.

And they said to me, “You know, we’re just taught to compartmentalize. You know, we’re up in the air, we’re bombing things. And then we get off the plane, the two co-pilots look at each other, they give each other a little nod, then they go home and never talk about it again.”

And I said, “Well, how did that work for your home life as a parent, as a partner?” Like, “It didn’t work very well.” They were just holding in so much sadness or anger or fear or whatever it was. And it had no place to go other than self-hatred, rumination, PTSD, alcohol.

So my version of this is that everyone should learn how to use their emotions wisely to achieve their goals. And wise use of emotion, you know, in the short term, if I’m seeing a scary movie, I’m like, “I don’t want to see it.” Who cares? No impact for my life. I just don’t watch those stupid movies.

Or have fun, you know, it’s a game that you play. But if I’m doing that with my significant other, if I’m doing that with my colleague, it’s going to suck when I go to work every day, or when I come home from work.

So we want to figure out helpful strategies. That’s, obviously, to use my little term, “Dealing with Feeling,” which is my book, which is, “How do you deal with your feelings? And what are the strategies?”

And I think the first is you have to shift your mindset. You got to recognize there’s no such thing as a bad emotion. That’s a big one for a lot of people. Even I in my 50s still secretly saw anxiety as a weakness. And I don’t see it that way any longer. I really don’t. I view anxiety as something that I feel when I feel uncertain about things that I care about.

And that shifts the way I think about it. It doesn’t make it a bad thing. It’s saying, “Oh, you’re anxious that you’re still fundraising. You’re anxious because you want to raise the money. Or, you’re anxious because you want to do a good job. Okay, so let’s figure out how to do a good job or how to raise the money and you won’t be so anxious. Or, let go of the things you have no control over.”

The second is you got to know how to deactivate. You got to know how to, like, when your kid comes up and says, “Daddy, I hate you,” and you want to say, “I’ll give you hate.” You can’t retaliate.

You got to step back and be like, “I got to take the high road. I’m going to breathe. I’m not going to allow my kid to have this power over me. I’m not going to be triggered. I’m going to lower my arousal.”

Then you got to have the language. We talked about that a bit. You got to know how to reframe because we do have a negativity bias. So I’m a worst-case scenario kind of guy. I’m a little bit of a neurotic, you know, pessimist who, it’s like, you know, I grew up with a lot of negativity.

My grandfather was, like, “You laugh now, you cry later.” “Great, grandpa. Can’t wait to see you again.” And so I tend to be that way. Like, even when I’m giving speeches and I get an applause, I’m like, you know, “Somebody must have not liked it.” It’s like, “Why are you going there, Marc? Like, 800 people are clapping. You really have to go there? Like, what’s up with that?”

And then I have to stop and say, “Marc, just enjoy the freaking moment. It’s okay. You know, it’s okay to be happy once in a while.” So that’s that self-talk cognitive work. We got to have that relationship with the non-judgmental, compassionate, good listener. We got to take care of our bodies because our brains need fuel to regulate.

And then the last thing I’ve been working on is something that I call, you know, being the best version of yourself. And, essentially, what I mean by that is my new vision is to help people have a part of their identity be, “I’m someone who can really deal with their feelings.”

And when it becomes that way, it’s no longer something you strive for. It’s just something who you are. It’s a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, there is a lot of goodness, absolutely, within that. So let’s touch on a few of these. So shift mindset, no bad emotion. So I like it’s a very succinct understanding and articulation of, “Oh, I’m feeling anxious. That means I’m uncertain about something that’s important to me.” Now, these quick shortcut cheat code interpretations sound really handy.

Marc Brackett
They are.

Pete Mockaitis
Could I have a bunch of them for each emotion?

Marc Brackett
You can. And every emotion might use, or each emotion might have a slightly different strategy. So, for example, when I do a lot of travel and there’s a lot of problems with travel right now, there’s always a delay, there’s always a flight canceled, and I’m stuck in the airport. I’m like, “I cannot believe this. I’m so stupid. Why am I doing this?” I can go into that whole rabbit hole.

And then I just say, “Marc, you’re stuck, you know? So what are you going to do with your time?” “Oh, I can work on my next book. I can go, ‘I now have six extra hours to write. Yay!’” So I quickly shift to something productive that’s useful as opposed to just sitting there and yelling at the flight attendants or whoever is behind the gate.

Like, where is that going to get me? Nowhere. So I think really thinking about, in that moment, “What’s going to help me? What’s going to help me not ache in this feeling that’s unnecessary? I have no control over the outcome. I’m not going to make the plane get off the ground.”

I have a phrase I usually say, “Marc, you know this isn’t permanent,” and it kind of helps. Now, when I’m shopping with my family, I’m very cheap. I think everything’s a ripoff and expensive.

And so I have to then have a different form of like, I’m just like, “You know what, Marc? Like, is this stupid thing that we’re buying worth your relationship? It’s not. Let it go. Just let it go. Just walk down a different aisle. Just don’t even look at it.”

And I have to just separate myself and have a little bit of, like, you know, “You’re too controlling. Let it go. Like, it really doesn’t matter.” And that helps me with those feelings. So you learn over time.

You know, when I’m with someone who’s very difficult, for example, and they’re yelling or screaming or upset, I make them into a movie. And I just observe them and I just watch them.

And I’m like, “Wow, this person never learned. This person hasn’t read my book. This person hasn’t learned healthy strategies to regulate emotions. Like, I wonder what their childhood was like.”

And I get, like, curious, but I don’t allow them to have that, like, power over me. Do you see where I’m going with this? It’s, like, different techniques work for different experiences. But you got to learn them, and they really work.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Well, could you learn us a key technique that is super transformational, yet easy and comes up all the time?

Marc Brackett
Yes. How about we use you again?

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Marc Brackett
All right. So do you ever get triggered at work or at home?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure.

Marc Brackett
Okay. Can you think of an example with a family member or a colleague where you’re just, like, in your head, like, “I hate them,” or whatever it is, something negative?

Pete Mockaitis
It’s funny, I get triggered by, I think, software at work a lot, which is like, “Oh, this is so dumb. I can’t believe it. I’ve got this fancy camera, this fancy microphone, but if I want to use it, oh, no, I’ve got to pay a hefty rent to some software company to enable me to do that.”

Marc Brackett
Okay. So that’s more like a self-trigger with an inanimate object.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Marc Brackett
Okay. Like, how would that negatively impact your day or your time?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, depending on how long I’m in a huff about it, and that’s what’s so funny for me, is, like, sometimes, I could speak wisely just the way you were demonstrating for us, within a couple of minutes, like, “Yeah, well, it’s not that big of a deal. It’s kind of dumb and annoying, but we’ll get through this. That’s fine.”

As opposed to, you know, like, “This is a grave injustice. And I’m livid about it.” And I’m going to be huffy-puffy about it for a good 40+ minutes, which is not 40 good minutes of, you know, creative, productive, beautiful work.

Marc Brackett
Right, yes. So you’re already seeing how this works. But I’m going to give you the little kind of trick, which is that so, for me, I’ll give you my example now. At my job, I’m a professor at Yale. I grew up with very humble roots, and a lot of my students are not, they don’t come from those roots. They have different, they have roots that have, like, they’re like gold plated, or not even gold plated. They’re like gold.

And some kids, not many, but some are very entitled. And it’s a trigger for me because I don’t relate to that kind of, like, entitlement. So a student might say things like, “Professor Brackett, I’ve got a question, but I don’t think you’re going to know the answer.”

And I’m, like, “Okay, this is going to be fun.” And my, like, automatic self is, like, “You got to be freaking kidding me, you entitled, blank, blank, blank.” And then I’m like, “Wait a minute, Marc. Wait a minute, Marc. You’re the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence.”

And so I do have an alter ego, which is this guru of emotional intelligence, this feelings master, as I call it in my book, like, this person who is the wizard of emotional intelligence. And if I put myself in that person’s perspective or that superhero, as people have done with kids in research.

If I put my superhero self in to play, all of a sudden, the entitlement becomes an opportunity to be creative with this student. And I’d say, “Gosh, that was an interesting way to approach me. Can I ask you why you thought that would be helpful?”

And then, all of a sudden, I’m not like the nasty retaliatory professor. I’m more like the professor who is going to be wise and provide some feedback in a healthy way for the student.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, that’s fun. This adopting an alter ego reminds me, we had Srini Pillay, talked about psychological Halloweenism on the program, the podcast here. And, yeah, you could just sort of choose to, “I’m going to go there,” and that’s beautiful.

Marc Brackett
But it’s a muscle. It’s a muscle.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. Well, Marc, could you now share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Marc Brackett
The quote that I live by, which is attributed to Viktor Frankl, but we’re not sure he actually said it, but doesn’t matter to me, is the one about my work, which is, “Between stimulus and response, there is space. In that space lies our power and freedom to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and freedom.” I just love it.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Marc Brackett
I’m endlessly in admiration of my mentors who really, and not so much invented but put together the theory of emotional intelligence. I just think it was genius for Peter and Jack to say emotions are not idiosyncratic impulses that make you make bad choices. Actually, when used wisely, they help you achieve your goals.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Marc Brackett
I’m going to go back to Man’s Search for Meaning, which is, where Viktor Frankl wrote his work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear quoted back to you often?

Marc Brackett
I do, actually. And most recently, this technique that is about distancing, like, yourself away psychologically from the stimulus that’s really triggering you. And I say we have to become skillful at observing and not absorbing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Marc Brackett
I think just going to my website, which is MarcBrackett, M-A-R-C, Brackett, B-R-A-C-K-E-T-T, dot com. And I’m on Instagram, Substack, LinkedIn and all that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Marc Brackett
I guess my call to action is for people to consider being the best possible role model for what it looks like to be an emotionally intelligent colleague or parent. Or just visualize yourself as being the most emotionally intelligent person at work and see how that makes a difference.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Marc, thank you.

Marc Brackett
Thank you so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Dina, welcome!

Dina Denham Smith
Thank you. Good to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be chatting with you. And you wrote a lovely piece in the Harvard Business Review about “The Keys to Succeeding Under a New Manager.” Could you share with us what prompted you to think the world needs this article?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, a couple things, really. There’s a lot written about and written for leaders when they have a new leadership position, like the first 90 days, right? It’s a classic. It’s been around for forever. There’s all this guidance that exists for leaders how to hit the ground running.

But what I noticed is there was very little guidance for people who have a new leader and how they can make the most of the transition. And, you know, concurrently, I also noticed in my client base, and then the research backed it up, it just felt like people were getting new managers all the more frequently.

And as I dug into this, sure enough, they are. And it’s for a couple of different reasons that have kind of become like they’re sort of on velocity now. Like, one, there’s more restructurings. So there’s just like a lot more change happening in organizations.

And then the second thing that’s happening, and it’s, really, I think, it’s such a shame, honestly, is the leadership failure rate is really high. And that is because they’re really not given that much guidance or support when they take on a new role with new scope.

And so the turnover amongst leaders, really, at all levels, is pretty high. So you take these two things together, and what it means for a lot of folks is they’re getting new managers more frequently than ever before.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, good eye observing things with clients and the research. And what I think is so interesting and useful about that is it’s happening frequently and yet it can really be a tremendous opportunity as opposed to, I don’t know, a big ball of uncertainty and anxiety, “And now what do I do?”

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, I would say it’s both-and, you know, because it’s almost like the devil you know, right? And for some folks, they’ve developed really strong, like long-standing relationships with their managers, and it’s a really sad event when they discover that, like, “Oh, no, she’s leaving,” or, “He’s leaving. And what does that mean for me?”

Other folks, right, if they haven’t really worked for someone great, could be relieved. And many folks are just kind of, like, beaten down. But, oftentimes, what I see happening, too, is that people kind of go into this holding pattern where, as opposed to being like, “This is a huge inflection point, and there’s a lot of things that I can do to make the most of it.”

They kind of go in more into passive, like, “Let’s wait and see how this works out” mode. And that, I think, is the biggest opportunity lost because there is a lot of uncertainty. And when there is uncertainty in change, it’s hard and there’s opportunity.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really cool. So the “Let’s wait and see,” it’s interesting because, in a world of much tumult, reorganization, chaos, that seems like a totally sensible, rational, natural response, like, “Okay, well, before I get too, you know, invested, committed, because who knows, maybe this person’s going to be gone in a couple months as well.”

Dina Denham Smith
Totally.

Pete Mockaitis
So it’s a totally natural response. And yet, it does sort of squander that opportunity that you have in front of you. So can you lay it out for us, what are some of the top things you recommend we do when we find ourselves under a new manager?

Dina Denham Smith
I think the first thing is to almost, like, just clear your internal emotional space. So, for example, if you have worked for someone for a long time and you’re really sad and feeling extremely exposed, this happened to one of my clients, kind of recognizing all those emotions that you’re feeling.

And the reason to do that is so that you don’t actually bring them into the next situation. Like, there could be like a little mini grieving process, and you need to, like, recognize it so that how you’re feeling doesn’t unintentionally color how you show up with the next person.

The other thing that I think is really important to think about, and this actually just happened. I was interviewing the team members for a new leader that I was working with.

And one of them shared with me, he was like, “You know what? I was totally dreading her arrival because I’d heard all of these, like, horrible things about what a driver she was and a micromanager and all this stuff.” He’s like, “And you know what? It turns out she’s the most supportive leader I’ve actually had to date at this company.”

And so, you know, reputations oftentimes precede us, especially if the person is coming from someplace else within your company. But recognize that you really need to make up your own mind about this person, in part, because that reputation might be outdated. And secondly, it reflects what other people think, right? And they’ve contributed to that situation, too.

So I think the first thing is to just kind of really, like, clear your heart and your mind and be open to what could be a great new relationship. Like, oftentimes, we think about what we’re losing or the ways things could go sideways, right?

Our survival brain, like, kicks in high gear when things get uncertain and we don’t know what’s going to happen and, “Who’s this person going to be? And how’s this going to work?” Like, we think about all the ways that could go wrong. It’s just what we do. It’s how we’ve sort of stayed alive historically.

And you really need to intentionally kind of like toggle your brain into the other mode. And I’m not talking about, like, forced like Pollyanna. I’m talking about, like, also seeing the opportunity in this situation.

So maybe asking yourself like, you know, “What could be the silver lining here?” or, “What might be the opportunity here? How could this maybe go better than I even think it could? What could be in this for me?”

I mean, there’s a million questions that you could use to help yourself see what your brain might not naturally be seeing. So I’d start there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot, yeah. And those are great prompts to get the wheels turning and the brain pointed in some new directions. To back up a bit, when you mentioned a grieving process, what could that look like? And how do you know when you’ve grieved enough?

Dina Denham Smith
Well, grieving can look like a bunch of different things, right? The sort of the five stages of grief is really well known, but they don’t necessarily show up in that order for all individuals.

So you might feel really sad or you might feel angry or you might just feel like bowled over and resigned. You might feel like a lot of different things that suggest, you know, you’re just, you feel like there’s been a loss. And there legitimately might be, right?

It’s sad when somebody you’ve had a wonderful relationship with moves on to another opportunity or finally takes the chance to retire or is asked to leave. I think there can be some legitimate loss there.

And, at the same time, we concurrently have to accept, like, the reality of the situation. And so legitimizing and validating the way you feel and accepting what now is are equally important processes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, a great perspective for you sort of resetting things, getting your mind and emotional slate clear and good and not taking too much outside influence from the chatter and about the reputation or whatever, forming your own views. Where do we go from there?

Dina Denham Smith
What I’ve seen is that, sometimes, a new manager arrives on the scene quickly. There is a very smooth transition, “You know, Jane will be departing and Joe is coming in,” or whatever the case may be. Other times, especially at the more senior levels, there is a notable gap.

So one of my current clients, she’s now been without a manager for four months. Another one I’ve worked with is finally getting her leader after eight. So these interim situations can last anywhere between days, weeks, months, because hiring is a very, very expensive decision, and at more senior levels, they want to get it right.

And so there can be this sort of limbo period where there’s an interim structure. You have this interim leader. And it can be this time where you think to yourself, “Well, why invest? Like, they’re not going to be my leader anyhow.” But, again, that would be another missed opportunity because there’s a couple things.

One, it’s a new person in your internal network that you can invest in. And you never know where these strong relationships will, ultimately, take you. They might have a new perspective on some of the situations you’re trying to resolve. They might have strengths your former manager didn’t that you can learn from.

They will, undoubtedly, have a different network of relationships at the company that they might be able to tap for you. And so, by all means, invest in that relationship and make the most of it because it certainly can’t hurt.

And sometimes – guess what – that interim is appointed head. So, yet one more of my clients right now, I literally just started working with her, last week we had our kickoff session, and she was the interim head of a product department for six months while they looked for the chief product officer.

And you know what happened? They discovered she completely stepped into that role and she was doing great. And every external candidate they looked at, they stacked the external candidate up against her, and they, ultimately, decided, “You know what? We don’t actually want to bring in somebody. She can do it. Let’s get her a coach so she can really step into this really powerfully and support that transition.”

So folks on her team who were just like idling and waiting for that new person to arrive, it’s a shock to the system, right? So, by all means, invest in that relationship. It will only serve you.

And I think the other thing to do while you’re in this limbo period is you no longer have this set structure, which gives you a lot more latitude to be reaching out across the organization.

So we all know you don’t want to go over your head’s boss, right? Like, they’ve got certain sort of like sacred relationships that they wanted to, like, run point on. Well, they’re gone. You can step into those voids and really strengthen your internal network. So, again, you know, I’m like be on your front foot here. Don’t wait this out.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s a great reminder, interim often becomes permanent. And even if they don’t, I mean, it’s a pretty cool opportunity to get to know someone who’s apparently flexible and trusted to drop into places across the organization.

So, yeah, that’d be pretty nifty if you’re one of the few who really seem to care and, you know, pour forth attention and effort into that relationship. That’s pretty memorable.

Dina Denham Smith
Absolutely. I don’t know, you never know where these things are going to go. And so I think you sort of like making the most out of every day. Make the most out of this relationship, too. It could be so positive not just in a self-serving way, but you might have like a great new colleague at the end of this.

Pete Mockaitis
And within this particular context, investing in the relationship, what does that practically mean?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, practically, it means helping them come up to speed really quickly. They’ve just been dropped in. They’re now working two jobs, this interim person. They’ve got their previous team, and now they’ve got sort of these additional new reports.

And they maybe they’ve assumed the entire team, maybe they’ve assumed just a few folks, but whatever the case may be, like, their load has just been increased because of this other, you know, leader departure.

So do what you can to make it really easy for them to sort of assume a managerial role for you. Bring them up to speed on, you know, your scope. What are your key projects? What are you working on? What are some of the problems that you’re sort of working through and how you’re solving them?

Help them understand the snapshot version, like, what you do, what you’re about, and the things that you’re working on that are going well. Where you’ve got challenges that you aren’t able to entirely meet and you need help, bring them in as a resource.

They’ll have a different perspective. They’ll have different ideas, different resources at their disposal that might help you solve something in a new or more effective way. So that would be one thing.

And the second thing that’s important, especially if you’re coming up on a performance cycle, is your manager has just departed for whatever reason and so has most of your performance history. And this new leader is now in charge of doing your performance review.

Well, the very best thing that you can do is tee them up. And I’m not talking about being duplicitous and only giving them the highlights, but giving them sort of history and everything that they need to do that review in a balanced way. Again, it’s just about making it easy.

I had one client, this is the one actually who’s been in this interim situation until recently for eight months. And she had six managers over six years, like it really was a revolving door.

And so we developed a strategy, probably, I don’t know, four months ago, around this performance review cycle that was coming up. And she helped the general counsel understand all that she was doing, her scope, her strength, all of it.

And it turns out she got her largest raise and her largest stock bonus ever in percentage terms. So these things can work out incredibly well as long as you put yourself in the driver’s seat.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, it’s so funny, well, you mentioned an opportunity. I mean, it’s quite tangibly an opportunity right there, you know, fabulous review and money stuff flowing, I guess. But I’m thinking just about in terms is the very human place that person in the new role finds themselves.

And it’s just like, “You know what? You’re the only person who made my review easy. And I really appreciate that. So, not to be too flippant about it, but I just get the impression you’re really on top of things and, generally, great, and you’ve given me a lot of facts. So, yeah, how about we’re just going to go ahead and give you an awesome review?”

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, when people make our lives easy, we like them more. And when we like people more, we act like we like them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you know, it’s true. It sounds simple, but I think it’s overlooked and it’s very true and powerful. You had a nice little take on – I love your phrase – in terms of figuring out how they work and operate quickly. And we’ve had Mary Abbajay on the show, talking about some managing-up principles which could be quite transformational.

And you’ve got a great phrase here, “I’ve always found it useful, when working with someone new, to discuss operating preferences early.” That sounds like a great way to take any awkwardness or discomfort, like, “Wait, what are we talking about and why?”

It’s like, “Oh, this is what we’re talking about and why. And you what? You’re right. That does make sense.” So what are some of those operating preferences you want to check through?

Dina Denham Smith
And I would say, you can have this conversation with an interim head. And then, further, once the permanent person comes along, this is paramount because what, oftentimes, happens is there’s this like drag. Like, transitions have this drag.

Everybody’s feeling each other out, trying to figure out like, “What matters, you know? How is this going to go?” And, meanwhile, you can really just hit it on the head. And it’s about, “How can we work most effectively together? Like, help me get to know you.”

So let’s just play this through. You have a new leader, a new manager. Very early on, rather than trying to read the tea leaves, use some of your one-on-one time to say, “Hey, I’d really like to get to know you better, how you like to work. Would you mind if I ask you just a few questions?” People love being asked questions. They’ll say, “Sure.”

And then I would ask questions like this, “Like, you know a little bit about my scope and what I’m doing. Like, are there certain areas of my business or my work you really want more visibility into? Let’s talk about, like, where you want me to just tell you what’s going on? And where do you want to be part of the decision?”

So you’re really like just hitting the head on like, “Where do you want visibility? Let’s talk about decision-making. When there’s a problem happening, one of the things I’m, like, working with, do you want to know about that problem, like, early on, or do you just want me to come to you once I’ve figured it out and tell you how I solved it? How do you like to communicate?”

“It can get really like mechanical. If I really need you, like should I email with, like, a special subject line? Do you prefer a text, a Slack? Like, let’s talk about how you most prefer to communicate and what your best channels are. What are your pet peeves? Like, if I do it, what’s going to drive you crazy?” So just asking.

And this speeds everything up for both you and your manager in terms of forming a really positive and constructive working relationship. It’s not about becoming best friends. It’s about really working together, like efficiently, productively, positively. And you can just get under the hood and ask a few questions and get there a whole lot more quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and to  your point before, that we like it when people make things easy. This is one  of the best ways to do just that. Like, “What you mean by easy might be different than what I mean by easy.” So just get right to it.

Dina Denham Smith
Exactly. And, again, most leaders, really, and I primarily work with leaders, so I know this to be true. They love when people are like, “How do you like to work? Like, let’s get into this so that  we can together hit the ground running.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely.

Dina Denham Smith
Very few people ask their leader that. And it’s like, I don’t know, it’s just, I think once you hear it and internalize it, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, of course,” right? But, oftentimes, we just don’t think about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, you say very few, and I believe it. I’ve asked audiences about this. I talked with Mary Abbajay about it. Her estimate is like less than one or two percent based on what she sees in her audiences and research work. So, yeah, it’s a huge opportunity in terms of differentiating quickly, and it’s just delightful for everybody. So, yeah, go for it.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Dina, tell me, any other key things you want to mention in this situation that folks should know before we hear about your favorite things?

Dina Denham Smith
Well, I think one of the things that can also go overlooked in this situation is some of the team level dynamics that oftentimes occur when there’s a leadership transition. So whenever there’s a transition, as we’ve talked about, uncertainty increases.

Well, you’re not the only one who’s gone into sort of survival mode, like, “What’s going to happen to me? How is this going to work out?” And, oftentimes, things can get a little bit political for a bit.

There can be, like, territoriality. The leadership levels, I always call like a “Game of Thrones.” Like, people can get into sort of like land grabbing and it can get, like, just a little goofy with peers.

My best advice is to not play that game. Be aware that these politics are happening, but don’t play it. Instead, take an approach of meeting with your peers and trying to collaborate with them. And the reason for this is twofold.

When your new leader arrives, if they see a team where there’s, like, a lot of politics, first off, it’s really obvious. And the more fragmentation or competitiveness they see, or confusion they see in their team, the more scrutiny it invites, right, because you have just raised that new leader’s stress level.

Like, “All is not well here. Like, there’s infighting, there’s some unfortunate sort of like relationship strains, like roles and responsibilities aren’t clear.” That raises their stress about the health of the team, which naturally then invites them to take a much closer look at, like, “What’s going on here?”

You can really differentiate yourself by, as much as possible, trying to establish strong collaborative relationships around you with your peers. So talking with them one on one, like about any sort of overlaps or lack of clarity or alignments or just how you can more work together more effectively, that can really set you apart when, oftentimes, people’s response to this situation is a little bit more selfish.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well said. Okay. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dina Denham Smith
It’s from Maya Angelou. And she said, “People will not remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.”

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dina Denham Smith
I absolutely love, and I go back often to a really groundbreaking study and finding from Matthew Lieberman, who’s a neuroscientist out of UCLA, and what he discovered, and this is years ago now.

But that social pain, when we’re left out or we’re criticized or something happens interpersonally that is hurtful for us, it lights up the same networks in our brain as physical pain. Meaning, if you get, like, punched in the face and you get criticized, your brain doesn’t really differentiate between these things.

And what’s so important about this in terms of how we think about how we relate to others and the workplace is understanding sort of like the impact of our actions and our words on other people, such that if we leave out a teammate, or if we’re hypercritical, or we gossip and people discover it, it hurts them as much as as physical pain.

And this triggers all of these unnecessary and unfortunate dynamics in the office that can really be prevented. And so I think it’s a really meaningful thing. And I hadn’t thought about this before, but it very much connects to that quote I initially shared, right, about people won’t remember what you say, but they will remember how you feel. And if you hurt someone, it’s a slow road to repair.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. And a favorite book?

Dina Denham Smith
I think, probably my all-time favorite is Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning, which I’m sure most people are familiar with, but I think it’s just profound the idea of, like, we’ve got this millisecond in between stimulus and response. And that millisecond, we can change our lives with it every day.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Dina Denham Smith
My dishwasher?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a good one, yeah. And a favorite habit?

Dina Denham Smith
My habit is also my hobby. I’m a passionate equestrian and I ride a few times a week, and it’s like my silver bullet for all that ails me in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really connect and resonate, they quote it back to you often?

Dina Denham Smith
I think, one, and this is me, well, it’s, oftentimes, said in a leadership context, but I actually think it generalizes to most of us, and it’s that leadership is an inner game.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dina Denham Smith
Two places. LinkedIn, I am Dina Denham Smith. Denham is spelled not like the jeans, but D-E-N-H-A-M. And then my website is DinaDSmith.com. And those are the best places.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dina Denham Smith
Treat every day like a new day. So, start your day thinking about, “How can I make this one just one percent better than the day before? What could I try or do differently or repeat because it worked so well?” But just being intentional.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. All right. Well, Dina, thank you.

Dina Denham Smith
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Cindi, welcome!

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am excited to talk about uncertainty. You got a whole playbook for us. I’d love it if you could kick us off by sharing what is one of the most surprising things you’ve discovered about us humans and uncertainty in all your research?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So I think what surprised me is uncertainty plays like a huge silent role in so many of the decisions that we make and the important decisions, like which groups and hobbies and organizations we decide to work for.

Like, we basically are largely choosing, in a way, to minimize our uncertainty, including our career path. I mean, like most people I talk to, including myself, when you talk to them, there’s a story back there on how they chose their path, and it’s usually because the path was more visible to them than any others.

So I grew up in an entrepreneurial family, and I even went to get a PhD and went that track but, ultimately, still went back to entrepreneurship. And it was like a path that was more well known to me.

And then we’ve been in all sorts of hospitals and you talk to people in hospitals, and, inevitably, either they had somebody who was in the medical field and they saw the path, or somebody, themselves, or somebody they were really close to were really, really sick, and so they spent a tremendous amount of time around those people, and so the path became, you know, more visible to them.

And so I think that, to me, that’s the most interesting part about uncertainty. It’s just so much of our life is actually created around trying to reduce the uncertainty of life.

Pete Mockaitis
Cindi, that is a provocative assertion. I’m provoked. You have provoked me. Because I’m thinking, decisions are real important, in a way. And we’ve had Annie Duke on the show, the professional poker player, had a fabulous book, Thinking in Bets.

And, in many ways, our decisions are about the top thing that we want to get right. And in the universe, that is unpredictable, uncertain, luck, un-luck, showing up for us, what we decide is tremendously consequential, arguably the most important skill of them all.

And to hear that we are choosing, in a way, to minimize our uncertainty, my gut reaction is, “Huh, that doesn’t feel like the ‘optimal’ criterion we should be optimizing for in our decision-making.” And yet we often are. Can you share, do you have any intriguing research or studies that backs up that assertion further?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So there’s a classic researcher, Michael Hogg, and he’s the one who first turned me on to even thinking about uncertainty as the role. And, basically, to summarize what I recall about his research, is that the groups that can reduce our uncertainty are the ones that we’re most likely to actually identify with and identify strongly with.

And so, it’s this idea that drawing people into groups is often related to just at, like, “How much certainty can you provide?”

So you think about, and I’m going to be provocative here, I guess, because of the topic, but you think about religion.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, I thought that first, yeah.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, so that is great, like that’s the fundamental uncertainty, “What happens on the other side?” And for people who are very uncomfortable with that uncertainty, to some degree, they are seeking out a religious group and they often very, very strongly identify with that religious group.

And if you talk to them, they’ll tell you they feel like they know what’s happening on the other side. So I have very religious people in my family, and they absolutely feel like they know where they’re going on the other side and that they know the rules in order to get in.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I was thinking about that first in terms of that’s about as uncertain as it gets.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, it’s fundamental.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, when you die, is there nothingness, eternal bliss, eternal torture? That’s the full. And it’s hard to know.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Or recycled. Or recycled.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Okay. Reincarnated, yeah. And so, in terms of, like, it’s hard to know in terms of with the evidence we have available tangibly in front of us. It’s hard to know and the consequences are about as epic as they get.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
As they get.

Pete Mockaitis
So, yeah, that is like max uncertainty. And folks in their religious communities often feel quite close, connected to those, and that’s intriguing. And then, I’m thinking about if someone is in, say, a volleyball league or bowling league, those bonds, they’re certainly more than zero, but the amount of uncertainty that’s being alleviated is much less.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I’m going to argue with you on that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So, one of the things that I learned while at universities, I actually was at the University of Texas at Austin, when they were trying to figure out basically how to increase student retention, you know, like the freshmen that come in. They wanted to work on the number who leave shortly after entering.

And one of the things that they realized, they created these things that they called figs at the time. And I can’t remember what a fig actually means. But, basically, they broke students down into about 17 students and there were different tracks.

 And they would have for, like, I think the first two years, at least one, possibly more classes together. It was the same 17 people going through.

And those students, because they were able to form relationships very fast, were less likely to leave. And, oftentimes, like I just had somebody who we’re very close to. He just graduated high school in May, and his high school is literally eight people.

And as I’m sitting there in the audience, I’m like, “Oh, my God, he doesn’t actually know how to make friends because it was just, it’s eight people.” Like, you’re going to know everybody.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah. It just happens.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah. And so when the graduation was over, I pulled him aside, I said, “Listen, you’re going to a big university. What you need to do in order to make it digestible is you need to join groups. Find the groups that you actually want to do and have similar interests with people, but that’s how you break down and feel connected to a university that’s that big, is that you find the groups.”

And so, you know, joining a volleyball team, you wouldn’t think, “Well, it’s a hobby and I don’t have to do that.” But it’s a way that you’re finding people that you’re hanging out with an awful lot, which reduces your uncertainty socially. Like, “I have people I can turn to. I don’t have to worry about whether or not I have to eat by myself if I’m uncomfortable eating by myself,” for instance.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you, certainly. I guess, and if you’re in a context where you don’t know much of anyone, one hundred percent, I mean, any group will reduce a tremendous amount of uncertainty when you’re going from no group.

I was thinking in the context of grown folks living in their communities, it’s like, “Oh, maybe I’ll join a bowling league or a volleyball group.” And so those relationships are meaningful and valuable.

Though I’m guessing, most of the time, that’ll probably be not as intensely close than some other relationships which would reduce more uncertainty but that’s kind of speculative. But, understood, groups are hugely valuable in part because what they do is reduce all kinds of uncertainty for us.

And so, help us out. I understand, or at least I intuit and have heard before, that 2026 here, as we’re recording, seems to have, substantially, more uncertainty in it than, I don’t know, a decade ago, two, three, four decades ago. That’s the vibe I’m feeling. Is that the case from a research-driven perspective?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I don’t know that I have seen any research specifically that says it’s ramped up, but it seems to me, anecdotally, that the speed of change has just increased drastically. And, I mean, like the technological, to me, you look back historically, and we’ve had huge technological advancements that, certainly, like shifted everything underneath somebody’s feet.

You know, even just like think about like the airplane, right? Like, that shifts where you can actually go in a fundamental way that is extraordinary. And then that opens up all sorts of opportunities, and not to mention resources.

And so we’ve certainly had that before, but it seems like the velocity of the change has increased. And that’s really what we’re talking about, is that every time there’s change, that creates uncertainty because we don’t really know how that change is going to impact all the different elements of our life, and we’re scrambling to keep up with that.

And it just seems like that’s the case. And then you look at AI and we’re in the middle of it, and it seems like it’s going to be as big or bigger than the internet, and yet, we don’t really fully understand how everything that’s going to change. I mean, like you can pontificate on it.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. And they love to.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Exactly. But if there’s no room for humans for jobs, just think about the impact of that. That’s like the most extreme, right? Then if robots are doing everything, if AI is doing everything, then our whole economic system, every economic system that we have a concept of out there – capitalism, socialism, communism – all of it doesn’t work.

And so that’s the potential for huge uncertainty. What would work with that? And I’m not saying that that’s what’s going to happen.

But that’s probably the most extreme case in terms of uncertainty and what would happen. And the only thing that I can say about that is, “Well, we’re all on the same boat, so we’ll be all going through it together.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true. That’s true.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
No one will have an advantage.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, no one knows what the future holds. And I find that so irritating when folks speak with such certainty about things that are fundamentally uncertain – the future. It’s like you could present some scenarios, yeah, but any or none or all of them could come to pass.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Right. And we just need to be in a place where we can be adaptable. And some of that is being able to manage yourself when there’s uncertainty around you. And so I think that’s why the book is timely. We didn’t make it for that. I mean, AI happened after we wrote it. And so it was just a happy accident.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, if it wasn’t AI, it’d be something, you know? Fill in the blank. Pandemic, revolutionary technology, geopolitical tumult, there’s always something. And so in your book, you mentioned that when we feel uncertain, we tend to do a couple suboptimal things. Can you lay those out for us?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I think the big thing is that it impacts our decision-making where it really causes us to skew to the negative side. And so when there’s uncertainty, we’re more worried about threats. Like, it’s almost evolutionary, right? Like, we’re here because our ancestors paid attention to the sound in the bushes and survived.

And so the problem with that, with uncertainty, is that that means that if it’s skewing us to only consider the negative, then we’re missing the opportunities. And anytime there’s change, there’s opportunities.

Anybody who can figure out how to leverage change or solve a problem, and change creates lots of problems, both of those are opportunities. And so the brain automatically shuts down into focusing on the negative and, in doing that, we also become more risk-averse.

So we try to protect what we have instead of taking, so everything’s going in the wrong direction. You almost have to force yourself to open up. And a lot of that is trying to force yourself into curiosity.

It seems to be the best way in order to open back up your brain is to start asking questions just to satisfy curiosity. Start running experiments that allow you enough risk to be able to get more information.

Like, if you look at it instead of, “I’m taking a risk,” you look at it instead of, “I’m going to learn something,” and set up the experiments to be able to do that, then you’re sort of biting away at the uncertainty, while also effectively coping with it.

Because there are also people who go to the other extreme with uncertainty where they’re like, some people will shut down, like they literally just shut down. The brain shuts down, their actions shut down, they kind of freeze.

And then there will be people who hate uncertainty so much that they’ll try to take control. And like you said before, they’ll be like, “This is going to happen,” and then take actions about it when they actually don’t have enough information.

And so the smaller moves with the focus on experimentation and learning seem to be the best way to sort of like chisel away at uncertainty.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that idea of the smaller moves that focus on experimentation and learning are so key. One of my favorite stories in this zone is I’m thinking about Tony Hsieh when he started Zappos.

Now we’re all very comfortable buying shoes online. But if we go back in time, there was a time where it was genuinely unknown, “Is anybody going to want to buy a shoe online? I mean, you got to try them on, for goodness sake. How could you buy a pair of shoes without knowing how they feel, what it’s like when you walk around in them? Is it tight in weird places that you don’t want it tight, or too loose,” all the things, the support on your arch, you know? Like, how could you possibly determine that?

So what he did was he moseyed over to a shoe store and said, “Can I take pictures of your shoes? And if I sell them online, I’ll pay you for the shoes and then I’ll ship them to folks.” And they said, “Okay. Nothing lost on our side,” says the shoe store owner.

And from a strictly, like profit-and-loss perspective, this is a terrible business move because you’re not making any profit if you’re buying the shoes at retail price and then selling them at the same retail price and doing the work and the shipping. It’s, like, a terrible financial operation, but a pristinely beautiful learning operation.

And, sure enough, he was able to see, “By golly, when you make the return process easy and free and guaranteed, folks are totally cool with buying shoes online. Well, I guess we’re off to the races.”

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Right. And you see that with so many things. I mean, like, we’re both wearing eyeglasses. Like Zenni is a great opportunity to buy a cheap pair of eyeglasses.

This is, again, something you’re used to trying on. And so what did they do? They gave you, like, a face thing that you put in there and then you could try on the different shapes, and so you kind of get a sense. And then you could send them back if they didn’t work. All of that is to reduce uncertainty, to reduce the barriers that uncertainty puts up with adoption.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so that’s a good move in terms of thinking about doing these experiments. Could you share with us some additional stories and perspectives for folks who were feeling the uncertainty, they were at risk for making some foolish decisions, and then, ultimately, what tactics and strategies they used to prevail under those conditions?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So the one that comes to immediate mind is somebody we’ve coached who really wasn’t happy in their job but, at the same time, they were reluctant to retire. It wasn’t necessarily like the organization itself. It’s, like, they were, I think I would say, fundamentally, bored with what they were doing and they’d been doing it for a while.

So it wasn’t an organizational issue. It was more like a lot of people at about seven years. Actually, it’s like the seven-year itch of, like, work. And so they were at that point where they’re like, “Well, if I retire, I can then do this nonprofit that I can work in, I can volunteer in this nonprofit, and it’ll really fulfill me.”

But they were afraid to make the step because that’s a big deal, like retiring and not having money and going into a nonprofit. And I think we started out with the initial conversation was, “What if instead you work for them, and then they’re like, ‘Well, you know.’” There were things that why they wanted to stay, like better healthcare. There were issues that were keeping them in the organization.

Then I’m like, “All right, what if you, basically, do sort of a side hustle with this nonprofit where, like, you get used to them, you get to see whether or not what you’re offering is valuable to them, you get a sense for, like, being in that space while still maintaining this job? And so you’re running an experiment and then you can switch over.” And that worked very well.

And so they, basically, like, worked on the side hustle for about a year in this nonprofit, and they did, in fact, love it. And the nonprofit made enough room for them.

I think, initially, the nonprofit couldn’t really give them, like, a full time job. And, certainly, they were not replacing everything that this person was earning in the organization. And that was also part of the calculation is, like, “How much do you need in order to be able to do this?”

And so they were able to slide into that, see the reality, what it would be like, and then eventually they moved on over. But they weren’t going to do it before that. They were going to wait until they hit, you know, 70, which was a number of years away, and get the full retirement and then do this thing that they wanted. And that’s a lot of years of being bored.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it sure is. Well, that’s a great story and, yes, I’m all for it. You know, your subtitle is “14 Strategies for Work Success in a Chaotic World.” Cindi, if I could put you on the spot, could I have you give us the lightning fast overview of the strategy, one or two sentences for what that is, and then we’ll dig into where it seems the juiciest?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Okay.

Pete Mockaitis
So, first, “Get a hold of yourself.”

Dr. Cindi Baldi
It’s basically just getting a hold of your emotions. That’s what we’re really talking about. And because uncertainty, again, does spike a lot of negative emotions, and so we have some practical tools in that chapter that help you basically step back.

My favorite in the chapter is the 10-10-10 rule, where you’re in a situation and maybe, like, you’re on the cusp of overreacting or possibly doing some damage to a relationship. And the rule is, “Ask yourself if in 10 hours, 10 days, or 10 weeks this is even going to matter.”

And you sort of like talk yourself through what that looks like, how you feel about this particular situation. And you could do different increments, but it’s basically pulling out in time, “Is this even going to matter?” And when you do that, a lot of things go away.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And strategy two, “Convert experience into wisdom.”

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So this chapter, “Convert experience to wisdom,” is just the fundamental flaw that we’re all very busy. And in being busy, we don’t do a whole lot of reflecting. And if we’re not doing any reflecting, we’re not doing any learning.

And if we’re not doing the reflecting when it comes to uncertainty, we’re not actually getting better at assessing our ability to predict and take risks. And so you have to set aside time in order to do your after-action review and see what you could have done better, what you did well, how you might change going forward.

I mean, we do this, like, personally all the time in our business. Like, every single time we put a proposal together and go out, and whether we get it and then more information comes in, or we don’t get it, we’re like, “Okay, what could we have done different? Did we do the right thing?”

Because sometimes no deal is a deal, “Did we do the right thing? How could we improve our odds next time? What would we pursue differently?” So, like, any time that you’re going through something, especially with uncertainty, because you don’t even know what you don’t know with uncertainty, but, like, “How might I have actually been able to tackle this a little bit smarter?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. It’s necessary to learn or you’re just going to keep doing the same thing. And we’ve had guests talk about having a decision journal or whatnot, or just a regular process, especially if you have a recurring thing that’s happening.

We had a pastor, who said every Monday, they discuss what went down on the Sunday and how could they make it better and better and better. And so you just got 52 shots at improvement every year that you can go to a really cool place.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
That you’re actually getting. Because you could also get up and talk 52 times in a year and do no reflection, and you’re definitely not going to get any better. We have somebody who works for us, and she works for us because when we first started out, she was in the room and we asked her to take notes and she gave us, like, each, like 10 pages of notes.

Like, she’s paying attention to the audience and what they were reacting to and our weird micro expressions and, you know, like buggy eyes or like weird little gestures that you do. Like, every speaker has like those little things that they do.

And, like, she had it all down, and it was fantastic. Like, we periodically have her go to gigs just to do that because she’s so observant and so good at giving feedback. But, otherwise, you just continue on with the quirk.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly. And even if you’re doing it but it’s only your own perspective, you’re not seeing some stuff. So I like that a lot. And, third, “Place your bets.”

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So, I mean, this is, again, about like risk assessment, of course, and just the fact that, like, when we have something to lose, we become risk-averse. It’s Kahneman’s work, Kahneman and Tversky’s work.

And so there’s danger in that. Like, what we see in organizations is people who have something, like they may have made a certain level and it’s kind of, it’s a life that fits the image, enough of the image of what they thought they would get, right? So they feel like they have something.

And so they don’t take the risk to maybe pursue a promotion, or a different track of learning, or even just a higher position, whether in that organization or a different organization, because they’re afraid of rocking the boat and missing what they have.

And so we see a number of people on the “I have something and I’m risk-averse,” side inside organizations. Like, “I know I’m not really happy but I have this and it gives me a comfortable life, it gives me the life that fits my expectations, and I want to be able to hold on to that.”

“Because what if I go to a different organization and it looks better from the outside, but I get in there and I’m miserable, I’m more miserable than I am right now?” And so they stay. They stay in misery instead of taking that chance.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Thank you. If you could highlight for me, what are a couple strategies here that are just transformationally fantastic for people that we just have to talk about?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So I like “explore and exploit” a great deal, and there’s this just art in building something which would be like explore, and then not getting so enamored on the explore that we forget to, like, exploit it.

And I know exploit has a negative connotation, but in this case, I mean, I’ve worked with somebody who did photo booths, like the live video booths that we now see everywhere. And they were constantly buying new equipment, and that’s very expensive.

And so they’re always experimenting, trying to like up the game with the equipment, instead of buying a set, like having a good set, and then spending the time to figure out how to leverage that and, basically, get your money back on it.

And so that’s the exploit phase. Like, the explore phase is, “Hey, this is really cool technology. And what should I use? And I’m going to buy something.” And then the exploit is, “Okay, I have this and I’m going to go for a while, understanding that, like, even as I breathe, this thing is like getting outdated,” because that’s what technology is.

And so you’re trying to do both of those things where, like, you get enough of bang for your buck on the exploit side to be able to fund the explore side. And with uncertainty, a lot of the time, you either get people who, like, really fall for the curiosity and the learning, and they don’t come out of the explore, or you get the people who get so accustomed.

And this, I think, is the more common. You get people who are so used to the existing system that they have that they don’t upgrade when they should. So I’ll give you a practical example from, actually, my own family.

So my parents, they own a drive-in movie theater. And we just had a celebration for somebody who was important in our community who passed away. And so we hosted free movies for everybody.

And so I’m sitting out there, I’m walking around the cars, I’m talking to everybody, and I’m sitting there, and we have these digital projectors that we’ve had since we were forced to go digital projectors, which was a huge investment.

And I’m watching a movie, and I’m like, “Our movie is crap. Like, it’s not good enough.” And so, like, it was a huge investment. You had to take it out a long time. We probably have had them double the lifespan. And so we did the exploit part.

And so now I’m back into, “Okay, what are my options to up the game here so that way we have a good picture?” And that throws off all sorts of uncertainty because that, again, changes the financial dynamics of a business that doesn’t have a whole lot of roof on it.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s a drive-in. It’s, literally, roofless.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Well, exactly. Except for the snack bar and the projection booth. But so, like, it’s that kind of pull-and-play that you’re dealing with. I also see it with just this country. Like, we just came back from China, and this country is still in the phase of exploiting our existing transportation systems, our existing technology.

I mean, you go to China, Japan, South Korea, or Singapore, and there’s no wait at their equivalent TSA. There’s, like, one dude working there, you walk up, it scans your face, you walk through. And it works perfectly.

Then you look at the US, like, obviously, we have the technology, but we’re still stuck in the old way. And we have to switch from exploit into explore. So there’s that one.

Pete Mockaitis
Cindi, I like this so much. It is a balancing act and it is an art because, I think, it’s a bit of a reality check for me personally. Like, I really like exploring. It’s fun. It’s new. It’s innovative. It’s intriguing. And I could get down the rabbit hole of, well, now, for example, there’s all these speech-to-text tools that are so much better than they used to be for productivity.

Like, back in the day, Dragon NaturallySpeaking, no offense, was terrible and I hated it. And so now there’s all these things, like Whispr Flow and Aqua Voice, and like a dozen other pieces like it. And it’s, like, I could spend all day playing with them, testing their accuracy.

And it’s not really worth it, right, because it’s like, “They’re all pretty good now. You could probably just grab one in 20 minutes of research and call it good.” And yet, I just really enjoy the exploring. It’s fun, interesting, and intriguing.

But in order to really be effective, we’ll need to do a good bit of exploiting. And then come one, two, three years from now, it’s probably well worth it to take a look back into the explore phase and say, “Hey, this app has been delightful for me, but, you know, are they still the top of the heap or should I be looking around for at for something else right now that can do it even better or at a lower price?”

But then, again, you could do that, I’m thinking of AI, in particular. Like, everyday, I think it’s literally everyday, there is a new development of some kind.

And you could spend your whole working life exploring all the cool, fun, new, interesting things in the universe of AI, and maybe that’s great if you run an AI YouTube channel and you’re sharing that and that’s great.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I think that’s how some people have handled it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, but for most of us, no, you just kind of got to know, “Oh, that thing will be useful for me. I’m going to go ahead and bring that into my life, my workflows, and then just, like, peek my head up from time to time to get a sense of, “Is there anything game-changingly new that I should be using? All these YouTube thumbnails seem to be suggesting it is, but actually is it?”

And so, yeah, boy, you can really marinate in that one. Like, “What is the correct balance of explore/exploit given the life cycle and what I’m trying to achieve, and the landscape around me and how it’s evolved?”

Dr. Cindi Baldi
And I want to tie that back to what I had initially said with, like, dealing with the negativity when uncertainty sets in and sort of being like frozen. The remedy to that is the curiosity. And so the remedy is explore. And once you get into it, you love it. You might have uncertainty about going to, say, like a foreign country or even just a city that you haven’t been to.

Like when I say I’m going to New York City, like there are people who are petrified of that. But you go, and like it’s amazing. It’s an amazing city. There’s a ton of stuff that’s really cool to do there. And you start getting all these ideas of bringing home like, “How can I use this in my daily life? Or how can I use this in work?”

And it’s that level of explore that then kicks off all these other ideas, and so it’s very enticing. Once you get yourself into it, you have to make sure that you don’t just perpetually stay in it. You have to do something with it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great. Okay. Well, now can you share with us the notion of “Striking the right balance”?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
So “Striking the right balance,” I believe, without looking inside the chapter, I believe that that’s the one that I would call getting a hold of, like, your brain, like mental management, basically, because, again, curiosity causes us to flip to the negative side. And so it kicks off things like negative rumination, right?

And we want to practice possible scenarios, but we don’t want to be stuck, like, constantly going over the possible negative scenario over and over again. We want to also practice positive scenarios, right? Practice is a good thing.

I grew up, again, in a drive-in movie theater at a very young age. I won’t tell you how young, because my parents weren’t paying attention. I was the fourth one. So I like to say that they ran out of energy. So, like, I was watching horror movies very young.

And, like, a lot of people would be horrified at that – horror movie, horrified. But in life, I’ll say that having watched horror movies actually has a good application because I’ve thought through some, like, dire situations, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, you’re ready. When the slasher comes your way, you know what to do.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, I am. There was somebody who, like, was in my house one time.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, dear.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, I know. It was very scary. It was the middle of the night. The dog woke me up. And the first thing I said was, “I know not to go down and investigate and ask them what they’re doing in here.”

But, you know, like you’ve thought it through because of the experience of watching, or that you’ve intentionally practiced, whether it’s a conversation, like a high-stakes conversation, or a high-stakes situation that you’re walking into, that you’ve practiced both the downside and the upside.

And it’s true, you may get neither, but it’s in the practicing that it builds, A, your confidence. But, B, like, it’s sometimes surprising, the little nuggets that you practice in advance that are helpful.

So the practice is good. The downside is, if you keep spinning that situation, whether it’s a possible future situation or a past situation that actually did happen, and you’re spinning it in your brain over and over again and ruminating.

And so this part of the chapter is like, “How do you do the mental management to basically make sure that when uncertainty kicks off rumination on you, which it has a tendency to do, how do you get out of that?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Cindi, two things. First, we have to know what happened with the dude in your house?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Oh, sure. So this is when I was really young. I was in college. So I, first, closed my door and locked it, and then walked over to the window to see if maybe, perhaps, it was my roommate coming home in the middle of the night, and then my knees went out from underneath me because her car wasn’t there and I knew it wasn’t her.

And so then, because this is the days of landlines, I, fortunately, had a yellow lab who had eaten the answering machine that sat downstairs with the phone. So who was in my house had to go up past my room to get to the landline extension. And they must have figured out that like I was talking.

So I had time to basically pick up the phone and call the police. And then while I’m on the phone with the police, they picked up. I heard them click.

Pete Mockaitis
Whoa!

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah. And then they jumped out the balcony.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, so they knew the police were coming and they got the hell out of there. But I was very lucky.

Pete Mockaitis
Did they take anything?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
No, no, they didn’t take anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’m glad you’re safe and well.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I owe that to the dog.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you, dog. Okay. So we just had to close that loop.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I understand.

Pete Mockaitis
Secondly, when it comes to rumination, how do you stop it?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I mean, obviously meditation, but I would rather put like a pencil through my eyeball than meditate. It’s just, like, not really for me. I do recognize that it really is very helpful and people who can do it and enjoy it, I grant you all the power in the world.

The ways that I do it, I do it in two different ways that I find effective for people. The first is doing a level of exercise that is a little bit stressful, but mostly comfortable.

It’s, like, not at the point where you’re struggling, but, like, your brain can basically stop thinking. You’re like almost on an autopilot, but it’s occupied enough with, like, the strain where it doesn’t have excess resources to go bouncing around thinking about other things.

And I find that to be almost a form of meditation, so I can do that swimming or walking. And then the other one I find to be very helpful is diving into somebody else’s world. So fiction, picking up a fiction book and basically diving into somebody else’s world causes your world inside your head to shut off.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And I think there’s science suggesting it’s best to do that with paper, if you can, as opposed to another screen.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I don’t know. I don’t think I’ve seen that. Definitely for writing. I’ll have to look up the reading one, though. That’s interesting. I know that there’s research on reading that basically it really ramps up your empathy.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. But, as far as you’re concerned, personally, it’s like you’re down reading fiction any way you find it.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah. And other people, like it’s basically, like we run that exercise in groups, it’s anything that just gets you almost into flow. So anything that you really enjoy, because flow is basically you lose track of time and you’re just in the moment. And so your brain is just in the moment. It’s not thinking about a possible future or a past that you didn’t like.

And when you quiet down the brain, even for periods of time, when you come back out of it, you’re just more in control over it. I mean, I think that’s why people really do like meditation as it gives them a level of control over their brain, that without practicing it they didn’t have.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Cindi, I like these notions a lot. And I’m thinking, I think it was Kwame Christian, a guest of the show, who talked about forced mindfulness. He was talking about in the context of jujitsu. He’s like, “You know what? When there’s a large man choking you, you can’t help but be very present to what’s happening in front of you.” I was like, “Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a lot of sense.”

And I think about that for cold plunges, in terms of, like, my mind could be going in all kinds of directions, and then I get in some cold water and all my mind is going is, “Whoo!” you know? Like, all other thoughts have ceased and I like it a lot.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, I like that. I like the cold plunge example. That’s good. I like actually the being strangled one, in jujitsu one. Like, specifically, jujitsu.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay, so you can meditate, you can read fiction, you can do jujitsu, cold plunge.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
There’s a lot of ways. It’s what works for you.

Pete Mockaitis
There’s a lot of ways that you shut down rumination hard and have no choice but to engage with the present.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
And so, like, that’s the thing. There’s probably endless numbers of ways that individuals do it. It’s just paying attention to what works for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Beautiful. Well, Cindi, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
I think the only other thing that I would like to mention is sort of circling back to one of our original conversations about uncertainty driving group affiliation, is think about the groups that are really important to you and if there’s uncertainty there, what is it that you are trying to avoid? Like, is there a better way to manage that uncertainty? Because I just think it’s wonderful to be part of groups for a social component.

But you always have to counterbalance that with how much power do they have over you and your thinking, and even, like, the data that you process, like the information that you process? It has a huge impact over people.

And so we should, intentionally, periodically, look around at the groups that we belong to, and think, “Why this group? What uncertainty is it solving? Is there another way for me to solve that uncertainty or get comfortable with the uncertainty? And am I okay with how much power that this group has over me?”

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
You’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
You know, I have, like, a partial quote. I think it was from Pope. And it was, “Drink deep or taste not the Pierian Spring.” And I know that there was more context to it, but, basically, what it’s saying is like, you know, we’re never going to know everything. Drink what you can, drink deeply, but then you have to take action.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Kent Nerburn, Simple Truths.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really connect and resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
You know, I was talking to my counterpart, who’s, he’s behind the scenes, Jack. And the tripwire seems to actually, we talk about tripwires in the book. And, basically, like a tripwire is an if-then statement, like, “If this happens, then I will do this.” But it’s, like, the pre-planning of when you will take action.

So, for example, if you’re going to delegate something, and you’re worried about the delegation, like, the tripwire is, “How much room am I going to give for this person to, like, experiment and sort of like adapt to the delegation? And what do they need to do in order to trip a wire where I’m going to jump in?” That would be like an example.

So it gives people a little bit of space to be able to, like, learn and screw up, and you’re not, like, overreacting to everything.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Well, I mean, I have my own podcast, which you were on. Thank you very much for doing that. We’re Management Muse. And then I’m also available on Culsure.com, which, yeah, I got to spell the culsure because it’s very close to another word. So it’s C-U-L-S-U-R-E.com,  and all the contact information is there.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Well, I think my final call to action is, step one, think bigger right now, because you probably have just settled down into, like, a routine and life is busy and you’re not really shaking it up. And also uncertainty may be, like, holding you down a little bit. So think bigger about the possibilities for you, and then start asking.

Because what we tend to find is people, think if they work hard that they’ll get recognized and the organization will promote them fairly. But the problem is that an organization is smaller at the top than the bottom. And so if you want any shot at movement, you have to go in and ask.

And, yeah, it’s true, you may not get it right away, you may not get it at all, but if the people above you know that you’re interested in it, they’re probably going to do some things to help you get there even if, ultimately, you don’t get there through them.

So that’s my advice, is that make sure you get out there and ask.

Pete Mockaitis
And you have a story of someone who doubled their salary via asking, and it wasn’t even that hard. Tell us that story.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Yeah, so I do have that story. And so I will say that it’s been surprising just how much ground we can get by asking. And so this one particular woman, her job had expanded to be multiple positions. So people in the organization quit and she was extremely capable, and so they kept on adding a workload onto her.

And then that thing was really happening and, like, they weren’t offering up a salary because, largely, the CEO, which I don’t really agree with this, but CEO was like, “Hey, it’s market rate. If she’s willing to take it then it’s fair.” That was that was his perception.

Pete Mockaitis
I don’t know. Fair is not the word. If she’s willing to take it, then you’re getting away with it. I wouldn’t call it fair.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Right. I agree with you. I don’t agree with that. And, in fact, in fairness to the number two of that organization, he literally was, like, “Help her figure out how to ask.”

And so, you know, I was getting her mentally ready for the asking, and it was frightening for her. But, again, she had, like, three jobs that she was holding down in this one organization.

And so then we started like, basically trying to get the added value by, basically, doing these three things together, we did our best to try to piece together evidence to support what we were going to ask for, figure out what we were going to ask for, and then ask for it.

And then we practiced it and practiced it and she went in and she was very nervous, but she asked for double her salary and he said, “Done,” like didn’t even argue. So in that CEO’s defense, it really was about, like, what you’re willing to accept.

Like, he knew he was getting a deal. He wasn’t going to offer up the raise unless she felt like she wasn’t getting a deal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Ask.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
Ask and do your homework, but prepare to ask.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Cindi, thank you.

Dr. Cindi Baldi
You’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
Kerri, welcome!

Kerri Garbis
Thank you. Welcome to you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. I feel welcome. I’m excited to learn about speaking, presenting, performing, rehearsing better. Could you maybe kick us off with – since you’ve had the cool experience working on professional presence and speaking better – any intriguing discovery you’ve made that the rest of us just got to know?

Kerri Garbis
The intriguing discovery that everybody has to know about presence, speaker prep, is you are better when you rehearse. And if you are rehearsing correctly, you cannot over-rehearse.

I was just in an event yesterday, a virtual event where I was speaking yesterday, and there were a lot of side conversations about, “I don’t rehearse,” “It doesn’t work for me,” “I sound bored,” “I get overprepared,” and I am here to dispel that rumor. Boom! Dispelled it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. It was like a magical spell. It was dispelling this rumor.

Kerri Garbis
It’s dispelled.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, well, that sounds intriguing. It’s funny because, on the one hand, I think I am a master at rationalizing less effort in my life. And, in a way, and no offense, this is just a friendly challenge to anyone who’s adopted this perspective, it’s like, “Oh, if I rehearse, then I’m not going to be natural and fresh and intriguing.”

And, I guess, there’s some smidgens, potentially, of truth to that notion, but in my experience, I am better when I rehearse, and that’s your discovery as well. So tell us, what is the truth or the misconception underlying this notion of, “Oh, I’m fresher and actually better if I don’t rehearse”?

Kerri Garbis
Rehearsal, sometimes, for some folks can mean, “I’m just going to repeat the same thing over and over and do it the same way over and over and not really think about it other than what I’m saying.”

And I would agree that rehearsing like that, which isn’t really rehearsal, I would call that repeating, is only going to compound any distracting habits that you might have or distracting things that are going to distract the audience from what’s coming out of your mouth.

And if you’re rehearsing, which means, “Each iteration that I say this thing out loud,” and it has to be out loud, because, by the way, rehearsing in your head is like, “I’m going to learn how to swim,” and then not actually getting in the pool, you’re just going to think about it.

So you have to say the words out loud, and out loud with a certain goal. And, yes, you’ll repeat the words, although we often recommend that you don’t. We always recommend that you don’t memorize the script because most folks, unlike me, aren’t actors, right?

I am. I happen to be an actor since I was a little kid. Most business professionals that we work with are not actors so don’t memorize. Memorize your roadmap where you know where you’re going. Rehearse with accountability, meaning saying it out loud with a certain goal.

And that could be a goal of, “I’m going to have really great open body language,” or, “I’m going to do it this time and try not to use any fillers,” or, “I’m going to do it this time and really try to ignite or excite my audience and try to get them to do what I want them to do.” That is rehearsing with accountability, rehearsing with a goal.

And then once you get on on stage, whatever the stage is, and you’ve got an audience, you can’t just simply repeat what you’ve done. You will sound dull. You will be bored. You have to present or, I think, you said earlier, perform with a goal in mind. And the goal should always be about the audience and what you want them to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Say more about that, “You will be bored.”

Kerri Garbis
Yes, if you’re repeating what you’ve done, if I am saying the same thing over and over and over again, and I’m moving the same way because I rehearsed my arms, right, I say, “Welcome to…” I’m doing a really over-the-top gesture that nobody would do, hopefully, in real life.

“Welcome to my presentation about XYZ,” and I’ve practiced this 700 times, I am physically bored, I’m mentally bored because repetition can get boring. And you, as the speaker, need to have a goal that is out of you, off your head, right out of your head, and to the audience.

So know your goal and what you want them to do, ideally, what you want them to feel. Unfortunately, we can’t get anybody to feel anything specific. We can deliver the information in a way that hedges our best bet to try to get them there.

And make sure that goal is always in the back of the room in which you’re presenting, or behind the camera, or behind the head of the person that you’re talking to. You’re always trying to work towards something, and that’s going to keep you less bored.

I mean, as actors, we face this. If we’re in a long run of something, we face this often. I did the same show for 50 weeks in a row, eight shows a week. That can get boring. Or, 500 years ago when I used to perform in theme park shows, and we were doing the same show six times a day, it can get boring because you’re repeating the same thing over and over again.

So you have to give yourself little tricks and little goals each time. So, “Hey, this show, I’m going to concentrate on making sure my arms are straight in all my dance moves,” or, “This show, I’m going to really try to connect to this character or make this emotion the most prominent one that I’m showing during the show to keep it not bored,” because your audience is seeing it or hearing it for the first time.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, what’s so fun when you say, “Say the words out loud with a goal and you change up the goal and, thus, you get less bored,” it’s funny, I’m thinking about the world of video games here, an activity people undertake to eliminate boredom.

Kerri Garbis
I’ve heard.

Pete Mockaitis
And there are these things called mods, modifications, that you can install. It’s like, “I’ve played this game 400 times, but I want to play it, but I’ve done it so many times, it’s not interesting. Oh, there’s a modification so now it is new again.”

And so, likewise, if you say the words again, that feels boring because you’ve been there, done that. And yet, adding a new goal is like a new modification, and suddenly, it’s a new adventure.

And I think about, when I’ve been in zones of doing a lot of keynoting and rehearsing, I would find, sure enough, I’ve done this keynote like 30 times, but if I picked a new goal, it really was interesting.

Like, sometimes, the goal would be, “I’m going to make eye contact with people for approximately a phrase or sentence before making eye contact with the next person for a phrase or a sentence.”

And what’s really kind of fun is I can’t even begin to think about such things until the content itself is deep in my bones. It’s, like, I’ve got so much mental bandwidth that has to be allocated, and if 90% of it is on, “Oh, what am I saying next?” then there’s not much left over to do much of anything else but say those words.

Kerri Garbis
Yes, and I love your technique. I love this idea of mods. I might borrow it. I don’t play video games, but I know people who do, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure. All right.

Kerri Garbis
And, absolutely, you want to get it to a point where it, ideally, if you can, in your bones. And I often talk about rehearsal is so freeing because, if we’re rehearsed, it’s in there. It’s in my muscle memory. Not memorized. It’s in my muscle memory, the roadmap of where I’m going is memorized.

And then, all of a sudden, you can do eye contact to different people in the audience. You can feel a little freer to maybe take an interrupting question in the middle, or even, advanced, you can modify your message or how you’re delivering it if the reaction that you’re getting is not what you want.

If I’m telling the same story or giving out the same information for the 25th time in six months, and my audience, all of a sudden, I see is very closed off and looking down or, even worse, the dreaded, like, looking into their phone, that’s the worst as a speaker.

I know because I’m not reading the content off my brain. I’m able to actually look at them and take in what they’re doing and then I’m able to, like, mix it up and mod in the moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, there you go. Tweet that. Okay.

Kerri Garbis
Trademark.

Pete Mockaitis
So that’s really cool and, you’re right, like, we have to have some bandwidth available to observe the reactions and adjust. And I think it’s so fascinating how it’s easy to not do that.

And I’ve had the experience of watching a speaker deliver a presentation multiple times. And I’m thinking, “Well, oh, are you still doing that? It didn’t work the last time. Why haven’t you given that up?” It’s, like, “I guess I should probably share this with them so that they have this.”

And I think that it’s something I observe frequently. And you haven’t done this, Kerri, so I’m not implicating you in this. But I think what I find tricky is, and it’s harder on podcasts, and maybe I’m just a snob who’s spoiled now, you know, 1200-ish episodes in, like I’ve heard a lot of things, I’ve read a lot of things.

But when I hear…oh, man, when I hear people say things, like they say it with great enthusiasm and almost like a twinkle in their eye as though they think they’re saying something novel, useful, and interesting, but, in fact, they are not.

And that’s very hard to say to someone unless they ask, like, “I’d really like your feedback.” It’s like, “Oh, so glad you asked. You know, you were doing this thing.” Because it could be a real gut punch, like, “Hey, sorry, what you say is not novel, useful, or interesting, though you seem to believe it is, so it’s either you’re delusional or you’re you’re talking to the wrong audience.”

And this is so brutal, like, I never say this unless people ask. But I had a joke. For example, I was my college of business at the University of Illinois commencement speaker, and I had a little joke I made, which was people say, “Oh, you’re the speaker. What’s your speech going to be about?”

And here’s what I would say, and I think that this is applicable to many speakers today, is I would say something like, “Okay, check it out. So here we are, we’re graduating, right? So it’s like, ‘Oh, it’s kind of sad, it’s the end.’ But, no, check it out. I’m going to take that, I’m going to flip it on its head. ‘Graduation is actually a beginning,’ and get this, ‘That’s why they call it commencement.’”

And so that was my joke, because, like, that’s the most trite, overdone kind of graduation speech thing one could say. And that was kind of fun, I would see my true friends would be like, “Ha, ha. But, really, what’s your speech going to be about?”

And then those who aren’t so friendly with you, who don’t feel comfortable giving you feedback would say, “Oh, okay,” you know, they would say nothing. And so that’s a long example for, I think, this is problematic in that a lot of times people think they have something really amazing and they say it with that intonation.

And that’s more engaging than if they were monotone boring. But it’s like, “Oh, man, they’re really kind of missing the boat. Like, they don’t know that in the marketplace of ideas, what they’re saying isn’t special or worthwhile for us audience to be assembled around.”

Kerri Garbis
Are you saying that – so this is not about me, I understand. Okay.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Kerri Garbis
I’m just checking that this is not about me, because I have a business that teaches this. We’ve been doing it for 15 years. I can’t say that anything that we do or talk about is that perhaps people haven’t heard before because what we do is antiquated. It’s been around a very, very long time.

Actors teaching, well, the business professionals part is specific. Actors teaching humans how to present themselves more confidently and speak in a more authoritative way is not a new concept. I did not create it. Yes, I created this company. The original idea, I did not create.

I try to share things that might be common sense, maybe not so much in common practice, and things that people don’t always think about. For example, do you practice in the mirror, ever?

Pete Mockaitis
I have. I prefer video recording.

Kerri Garbis
Yes, same seas. Because the mirror, it’s not an accurate representation of what’s happening, which is hilarious because it is. However, in the moment, our brain taking in us is very distracting and doesn’t give us back what we need, which watching back a video later can. It’s one of the many tools we use in our training.

And it’s the same thing when we tell folks, “In the moment, as much as you can, hide your self-view when you’re speaking, communicating virtually.” So we’re a Zoom house in my organization. So, in Zoom, it’s really easy to hit hide self-view.

Same in Teams, most of the platforms. Here in what we’re doing, I have moved my…I can’t see myself because I’m off to the side.

So I know that I look good, sound good. We discussed this before. And then I don’t need to look at myself anymore because it’s just using brain power to distract from the communication.

So the less you can, IRL, right, in real life, if you and I are not on camera here and we’re having a conversation, I am not looking at myself communicating with you. I’m only looking at you.

And so taking out not rehearsing in the mirror, taking out as much staring at myself as fabulous as my hair is, like, I don’t need it to be present and communicate in the most effective way.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, that’s really good. And to that notion of bandwidth, yet again, it’s like we need some bandwidth just to monitor the response of the other person, like, “Do I seem to be saying anything interesting or novel or intriguing to them? Or do they understand what I’m saying or are they just kind of confused?”

I think you got to have that bandwidth available, and so less on you from a mirror or from your Zoom windows, certainly, that’s really handy. So this is a nice big idea. Rehearsing helps. Rehearsing more helps more. Say the words out loud with a goal.

Pete Mockaitis
When it comes to this rehearsing, I’m curious, is there a magic number or amount you recommend?

Kerri Garbis
There’s no magical amount of time. The number, the magical number is three. If you say something out loud three times, different goals each time, that can really help you feel prepared.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So three is magic as a threshold for, “You’ll feel pretty prepared after three.”

Kerri Garbis
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And not to get too formulaic, I suppose the individual goals we select will vary based on our own strengths and weaknesses and priorities and audience and content and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But, that said, do you recommend any frequent protocols that often work well for many people, like, “First time, your goal is this. The second time, your goal is that. And the third time, your goal is this”?

Kerri Garbis
Why, in fact I do. The first time, concentrate on, “Does this have a structure?” It could be as simple as beginning, middle, and end, or problem, trial, solution, or some sort of narrative structure so that it is easy for the audience to follow.

So first time, you’re saying it out loud, concentrate on the structure of what you’re saying. And the second time, think about the delivery. So this is when you want to think about, “What is my body doing? What is my face doing? What is my voice doing?” This is the time to think about, “Am I saying lots of filler words? What am I doing that is distracting from my message?” and work on that, the delivery skill.

And then the third time is do it. Do it without stopping, no matter what happens. That’s a great time to break out the video camera, or, I guess, now today, we do a phone. If it’s the ‘90s, break out your big video camera, put it on your shoulder.

And then think of that as, we call it your dress rehearsal or on the stage portion of the rehearsal process, and do it without stopping, see what breaks so you can fix it.

Pete Mockaitis
You mentioned earlier we can’t control what other people feel, but we can increase the odds that they’ll feel the way we intend for them to. I’d love to hear your general principles for this.

I think, most often, the feeling I want people to have when I’m presenting is enthusiasm, motivation, vigor, like, “Heck, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What a great idea! Let’s do it!” That’s kind of what I’m after most of the time. How do I get folks to feel that more often?

Kerri Garbis
Well, you can start by feeling excited, inspired, and behind that, or in addition to “What is the goal? What’s the, ‘Let’s do it part’?” You’ve got to get really specific about that, “So I want to excite my audience so that they…”

Pete Mockaitis
In this instance, it might be they rehearse their presentations more, so for this exchange, here and now, you and I.

Kerri Garbis
Yes, okay. In this moment, got it. We want to, as if we’ve painted that on the back wall, like I said, right, “Okay, my goal is I want people in this room to rehearse more, and I want to excite them.” That doesn’t mean I’m just going to stand up and be super excited about rehearsal, because that would probably get boring.

What if I scared them a little bit? What if I instilled some fear in them? What if I told them about a disaster story about a business leader who didn’t rehearse and the fallout from that and maybe that could get them a little excited to rehearse?

And I often find that you can, yes, we want to feel excited so our audience will feel excited. We can also get them there different ways. We can scare them, we can warn them, we could intrigue them. There’s a lot of different ways to get to the end result.

And all of that needs to start with how we’re feeling beyond being nervous. That is a huge thing that has to get conquered for public speaking. The National Institute of Mental Health states that 73% of the population suffers from public speaking anxiety.

Seventy three percent of the population suffers from public speaking anxiety, which means that most folks we’re seeing at a school meeting, at a business professional event, are nervous to speak.

And so a lot of what we do is also, in part, “How do we not only how do we be less nervous? How do we control that? And how do we get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable?”

It is so common for folks to be nervous when speaking. So how can both things get on stage together? How can my nerves and my excitement and all the other things I want to do come together and live harmoniously while I’m trying to impart this message?

Pete Mockaitis
Well said in terms of, if we want folks to have this emotional journey, we’re going to have to engage there emotionally. And that requires us getting unstuck with the, “Oh, I’m really freaked out about giving this presentation.”

So that is a great provocative question. Indeed, how do we get on stage with all of these pieces together, living up there? What are your favorite moves there?

Kerri Garbis
We like to start by asking, “What happens when you get nervous? Can you name it? Can you name the physical reaction,” right? When I get very nervous, you can physically see it. I get a splotchy neck. You can absolutely see it.

Some people are more external, some people are more internal, “I feel sick,” “I get tired,” “I start to get very hazy.” So, what does that look like for you. It could be multiple things like clammy.

I mean, I’ve heard all sorts of things, “I shake,” “I blink,” “I get dry mouth.” What does that look like for you? Let’s name it, and then maybe we can start to tame it, for lack of a better rhyme there.

And once we’re able to identify that, “Okay, what are the triggers? Is it actually stepping on the stage, whatever stage that is? Is it beforehand? Are we getting super nervous during rehearsal? Are we getting on stage, we’re fine the first minute and then we get freaked out?”

So we want to identify what it is and when it happens. That’s very, very individual. And start to work through that. And, of course, breathing, loads and loads of breathing techniques, breathing techniques beforehand, breathing techniques in the moment.

There’s all sorts of fixes. I don’t want to say fixes because we’re not getting rid of it. We’re making it palatable so that the person can be present when they’re standing on stage. So what are the techniques that we can use to make it palatable that the nervousness is with you on stage?

That could be a grounding item. That could be a visualization. There’s so many. There’s a myriad of things here.

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s encouraging. We got many tools in the toolkit to address this. So maybe just to zoom in specifically, let’s say I feel nervous in terms of my belly is, like, gurgling. Some might say butterflies in the stomach, but it feels more like there’s our there are waves sloshing around and they’re like, you know?

I know a guy who says, “I don’t eat before speaking for this reason.” Like, “All right, that’s, you know, commitment.” Hopefully he’s speaking in the morning. But so his stomach is like wave sloshing around kind of.

And then the trigger is internal in terms of, “I am imagining what if this goes poorly and there are bad consequences? I’m fired, lose status or respect or opportunity,” and that’s the blueprint of nerves here.

Kerri Garbis
We would start with the breath, connecting to the breath, relaxing the whole nervous system prior to. And then attempting to change your mindset from, “What if it goes badly?” to, “What if it goes well?” and instilling that visualization.

One of the most powerful things I was told as a kid, because, remember, I was a kid professional performer, and it was my middle school principal who told me this. I was really nervous before a middle school talent show.

And I remember being more nervous than I’d ever been in my entire life. And he said to me right before I went on, he said, “Imagine how you’re going to feel when it’s over instead of, ‘Oh, my gosh, I’m so nervous right now. I’m going to die. This is horrible.’”

It’s like, “Wait. Take a breath. Imagine how you’ll feel in three minutes when the song is over.” And I was like, “Oh.” And that really worked for me. That doesn’t work for everybody. That is really, still today, very powerful for me and something, one tool that we can impart.

So I would say, if this is what’s plaguing you, try different things. This is why rehearsal is important so that you can try on different things and see what works for you and managing your nerves. Is it breathing, meditation, visualization, a song? There are so many different things that will work for however you, your brain, your nervous system works.

Also note, one of the reasons I started this business was because, a long time ago, I went to help a friend get ready for a presentation, and I was waiting in the green room with the other speakers from his firm at the company, and there was a guy in the green room throwing up before his presentation.

Nobody in the room was concerned, except for me, and the other guys were like, “Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is what he does before every presentation. It was his thing. He threw up before every presentation.” And I thought, “There has to be a better way to go about this.”

And that was one of the very kind of first sparks of, “Maybe I could start a company that has employees, professional actors, to help business professionals not throw up in trash cans before presentations.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Nope, throwing up in the trash can, that’s just the best practice. It’s just scary, that’s just how we work it.”

Kerri Garbis
Yeah, and, in fact, it was our original tagline for the company. It didn’t really land well, but we’ve changed it.

Pete Mockaitis
And good for you for observing how the audience was receiving that messaging and then adjusting. It’s, like, you could be at it now 15 years later with the “throwing up in the trash can” line and you’d be poorly served by it. So, well said, there are many ways to address it.

We’ve had Matt Abrahams talk about some things like holding on to a cold object. Or, even broadly beyond speaking, Ethan Kross talking about how to shift emotions and chatter. So, yes, there are many, many ways.

But if I may put you on the spot and say, do you have a special way that you find is effective for a lot of people and not as many folks have heard of or tried before?

Kerri Garbis
Here’s one that, oftentimes, people will say, “Oh, I never thought about doing that.” So one way that nervousness can show up physically and also perpetuate throughout a presentation is movement, like swaying, like shifting. I’m shifting back and forth right now.

So one thing that we do recommend is that people put a coin in one of their shoes. And that way, they’re able to be, it’s a grounding technique, “I’m aware of both of my feet on the ground,” because they feel different, “I have a coin in one, I don’t have a coin in the other.”

And so at all moments, I know, or I can come back to, “Uh-oh, I’m shifting. Oh, I want to feel equally weighted on both feet,” so that they are very, very free to move around as needed, and then they can come back and say, “Oh, I’ve got both feet on the ground, I’m present, I’m in the moment, and I’m delivering.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that a lot. Because something about being, I don’t know who I heard it, be where your feet are, or just that notion of awareness of the body, physical stuff. And the feet, in particular, really does seem to have some rooting ability.

I found that very helpful back in the day when I was interviewing and nervous, “Oh, I’m being evaluated by this interviewer, judging me.” I would just sort of, you know, put my attention on my feet and put both of them firmly on the floor, and I just felt grounded and solid, like, “I’m hard to tip over right now.” I don’t know, physiologically that was good for me.

So I’m right with you, that experiment and see what’s what’s working for you and that coin trick might be a good one. Well, Kerri, tell us, do you have any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Kerri Garbis
I’ll circle back to the beginning about rehearsal. And, oftentimes, people say, “I don’t have time to rehearse. I don’t know why I’m rehearsing,” and it doesn’t take very much time.

And if you are finding that you want to improve on presentation skills, and you are having a hard time getting motivated, it’s unpleasant for a lot of people. It’s uncomfortable and maybe a little bit scary.

Schedule something in which you have to present. So have some sort of culminating event out there in the future. Maybe it’s two weeks out and you’re going to go to…and make it low stakes, not something that’s going to colossally affect your career.

Sign up for a storytelling night, or you’re going to go present at something where the stakes are very low, so that you’ve got something that you’re going to prepare for and you’ve got a timeline and that you can try on some of these new skills and see how it feels.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kerri Garbis
Well, it’s right behind me, which says, “Never teach a pig to sing because it wastes your time and annoys the pig.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kerri Garbis
The marshmallow study.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. My kids do it for fun. I told them about this study and they’re like, “Ooh, this is a good treat. Let’s use it for a marshmallow test.” Like, just for fun, they do the marshmallow test.

Kerri Garbis
Yes, I find it fascinating. All things, before, when we were chit chatting before we were recording, we were really talking about human behavior and that exemplify, I love to observe human behavior.

I love to watch people when they get a little stressed if there’s a long line, if there’s some sort of discord happening. It is fascinating to me how humans respond under pressure, which is, essentially, what I’m doing with my job here.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, it’s fun. It’s an intriguing concept in so many ways. And, fun fact, Walter Michel’s book about the marshmallow experiment, he had the actor Alan Alda narrate the audio version. I was like, “How did you swing that? Good job. This is kind of entertaining to hear.” So shout out there.

Kerri Garbis
Because everything sounds better with Alan Alda. He is part of my childhood from the “Free to Be…You and Me” album.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, my gosh, I remember that. I didn’t make the connection. I remember, “It’s alright to cry.”

Kerri Garbis
“Crying gets the sad out of you. It’s all right.” Oh, please. “Parents are people, people with children.” Oh, my gosh. That? Yes. Yeah, okay.

Pete Mockaitis
I remember, I saw that at the Illinois Association of Junior High Student Councils Summer Camp, Leadership Camp, and because camp is already kind of emotional, you know, and then they throw that at you, it’s like, “Oh, it is okay to cry. Oh, I love you guys.” And a favorite book?

Kerri Garbis
My favorite book is Quit, Annie Duke. Do you know this one?

Pete Mockaitis
We’ve had Annie Duke, and we had talked about quitting with someone else, Lindsay Crouse, recently.

Kerri Garbis
So, Annie Duke, she’s a professional poker player. And it is about having your quit threshold. And it’s something I revisit often because I am a very, very loyal, almost to a fault, often to a fault, human.

If I like you, if I trust you, and I’m connected to you, I will hang on there for dear life. And this really helped me get perspective of, “What is my quit criteria?” And it’s not just for humans, it’s for practices within your business and in your life. And it’s been very powerful for me.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job.

Kerri Garbis
A favorite tool for me to be awesome at my job is a current tool that we’re using within the organization. It is something we built with a software partner, it’s called Bravo. And it is an AI rehearsal tool.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool.

Kerri Garbis
So it is, you go on, guess what? You record yourself, you get feedback in terms of visual, vocal, and verbal presentation skills. And I use it to get ready for any of my speaking engagements. You absolutely keep a human in the loop, so you can send the recording to a coach or a colleague, and get human feedback.

And, to me, it’s a helpful AI tool, so I can rehearse at any time, get feedback, and also get human feedback and be better at what I do in terms of speaking. I used it for a pitch competition that I won yesterday.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Congratulations!

Kerri Garbis
Thanks.

Pete Mockaitis
And you helped make this thing?

Kerri Garbis
Yes, we have a software partner that we worked closely with to create the Bravo platform.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so cool. I’m there immediately, as I do. And I’ve played with Speako back in the day. And then there’s ChatMatt but Matt Abrahams. So your AI is also looking at my vocal qualities as opposed to just my word choice?

Kerri Garbis
Correct. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome.

Kerri Garbis
Do you sound enthusiastic? Do you sound nervous?

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve had a fun time sort of playing with some of these tools in which I have polite words but, like, a really mean tone. It’s, like, “I want to get a better understanding of how you’re thinking about this issue.”

And they’d say, “Great. Great job. You led with curiosity and openness.” I was like, “That was not a great job. I see that you’re only looking at my word choice tool.” So kudos for including that. And a favorite habit?

Kerri Garbis
My favorite habit is my exercise. I consider it part of my religion. If I do not exercise, I am not a very nice person. And it is that could be I get to the gym probably three times a week for weightlifting and then walking. Lots and lots and lots of walking and fresh air.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And is there a key nugget you share that tends to really connect and resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Kerri Garbis
Here is my nugget I’m going to stand on till my dying day. You, speakers of the world, you don’t need to slow down. You need to use pause more.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that, yeah. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kerri Garbis
Well, you can find me or my company, Ovation Communication, on all the platforms, meaning all of them, of LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. We’ve got loads of fun and applicable content. And that is where you can find us, GetOvation.com.

The tagline which is now “Get prepared. Get confident. Get ovation” because we’ll make you not throw up in a trash can. Again, it didn’t land with the folks.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kerri Garbis
You’re always going to have to present as a professional. And even if you have three minutes before you have to present, if you can simply say that first line and your closing line once out loud before you walk in the room, you’re already going to be exponentially better than if you only said it in your head.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. That sounds quick and easy.

Kerri Garbis
Rehearsal doesn’t have to be like this long-term relationship. It can be three minutes. It’s okay. It’s all good.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Kerri, thank you.

Kerri Garbis
You’re welcome. Thank you for the delightful conversation.