KF #7. Communicates Effectively Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Mike, welcome!

Mike Cisneros
Hey, thank you very much. Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be speaking to an esteemed data storyteller. And we’re going to hear a lot about that. But one story I got to hear right away is what’s up with you and Jeopardy?

Mike Cisneros
Okay, so throughout most of my adult life, I have occasionally tried to take the Jeopardy test to see if I could get on to the program. I’m currently in the active contestant pool for Jeopardy, which means I’ve gone through a few different rounds of practice, of trying to get further along in the process.

I’ve done the in-person interview with the producers, which means that me and a few hundred of my, hopefully, future contestants, competitors, let’s say, are just waiting to get the call to see when and if we’ll be invited to appear on the program.

So, it is exciting. It is about, I would say, a one-in-five shot at this point, but it’s much closer than I’ve ever been to date. So, keep your eyes and ears peeled.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m imagining, with data storytelling, you could make quite the slide revealing what your odds were at each stage along the path to now.

Mike Cisneros
You would not be surprised to find out how many people are invested in tracking and analyzing the data of the games over the course of history. There are sites that track every single question, every contestant, how well they were expected to do, how fast they are on the buzzer, what they could, theoretically, be. It’s a whole universe.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing. Well, that is, I did not know, but now that you mentioned it, it seems like, yeah, that feels about right. So, let’s hear about your book here, Storytelling with Data: Before and After – Practical Makeovers for Powerful Data Stories. What’s the big idea here?

Mike Cisneros
Everybody loves a makeover, right? It’s fun to see when something starts from kind of a jumble and we put it into order, we organize it, we make it work in a way that is aesthetically pleasing, that is functionally pleasing. And Storytelling with Data is all about helping people to communicate more effectively with their data. And that oftentimes means putting it in the structure of a narrative.

And so, over the course of years, what we’ve seen is there are a lot of different challenges that different companies and people face, but they’re very rarely unique to a single organization. So, it’s, “We don’t have enough time,” or, “We don’t know what level of detail to get things to,” or, “We don’t have one specific audience. We have to consider multiple different groups of people. How do we use the tools that you’re teaching us about in your workshops to achieve these different goals?”

And that’s what our book is about. We’re using different case studies, 20 different case studies from our real experience with clients on how to apply these techniques that we have taught over the years to specific goals, to specific areas where you have different challenges or things that you’re trying to achieve.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, being in the trenches like that, I’d love to get your hot take in terms of what’s the median level of data storytelling ability in corporate America nowadays? Is it okay? Is it shockingly terrible? Is it excellent? Where would you put it?

Mike Cisneros
What I would say is that there is a facility for data out there. People tend to know, especially people who are data analysts by trade, certainly know how to work with data. They know how to analyze it. They know how to explore it. And almost everybody knows how to tell a story. It is a natural function of being a human being.

And this is how we have taken in information throughout most of recorded history. It’s when you’re at a barbecue, that’s how you build social connections, is you’re telling one another stories, and it’s a very natural thing. But for whatever reason, we don’t seem to be able to mesh those two things together to figure out how to take these data that we have acquired and analyzed, and tell an efficient and effective story with it.

I guess it’s because when we were in school, nobody taught us to do these things at the same time. They always taught one thing or the other thing. You have English class and you have Math class but you never have something that combines the two of them.

So, to answer your question, I think that people are good at data analysis, people are good at storytelling, they’re just not good at getting used to doing these things at the same time, which is a shame because you do all of this work as a data analyst to find interesting things, to find stuff that you think needs to happen in order to make not just the company more money or make a bigger benefit for your team, but to, generally speaking, make lives better.

Because all of the data that we work with, in some way or another, I think, represents a human being, an aspect of being a human being, or something that affects a real person’s life. So, you don’t want all of that effort, all of that enthusiasm, all of that energy, emotional investment to go for naught.

You want to make sure that all that stuff that you’ve done, when it comes time to tell somebody who can do something about it, you want to make sure that it resonates with them, that it gets them motivated to do what you think needs to be done. And that’s going to be much more likely to happen if we master these storytelling techniques and figure out how to connect with our audiences that way.

Pete Mockaitis
Mike, you got me fired up. Preach it. I’m totally on board with that message. And I would love it if you could make it all the more real for us with a story. I think some folks might say, “Well, you know, hey, the data is the data. Those are the numbers. They show the numbers. We have a meeting about the numbers, and then we do what we do.”

Can you tell me what really happens when we tell a disappointing to mediocre data story versus an outstanding data story? What really is possible when we do that makeover, that transformation?

Mike Cisneros
When we classify something as a mediocre data story, a lot of times what we are saying is we assume that the data is going to tell the story for us. And this is natural because, when you are an analyst and you are working with this data all the time, it makes perfect sense to you. And the more you work with it, the more you feel like it’s super obvious.

And you imagine that you’re going to show it to somebody else, you go, “Here, see?” And they’re going to just be wowed by exactly the same things you were wowed by. But they’ve never seen this before. And they honestly don’t care about it nearly as much as you do. They have lots of other things they care about.

This is just the way that organizations work, is that if you don’t have the authority to do something, you’re probably moving up the organization to get the authority or pass it on to somebody who has the authority to do something and they don’t have the time. So, you have to make it matter to them in this way.

And this is something I wish I had known when I was a younger data analyst, by the way, because most of us don’t get into this field because we love talking to people. Most of us get into this field because we like the cold comfort of numbers and of objective analysis. But it is that figuring out how to communicate effectively with people that’s going to make the difference.

So, I had an example that… it was for an organization where they were doing investments in a country. They were doing development loans and that sort of thing. And they had ran some models on, “Here’s how much we think the imports are going to be. Here’s how much we think the exports are going to be over the course of the next few years.” And by few, I mean like 15 years. And then something unexpected happened. There was regime change in the country.

So, they had to redo all of their models. They redid all of their models and then they re-delivered their projections on a single slide. And it looked like they had gone into their statistics tool and had just regenerated the charts, and there were dozens of lines, and they were all overlapping one another. And the names of the models…

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, like the before versus after, all the stuff?

Mike Cisneros
It very much was like a before versus after, but to our eyes, this is the before. This is, “You’ve done so much work. You’ve figured out what it is that we need to do.” We figured out that even with the regime change. We figured out there are ways that we can see, “Oh, here’s how they can drive up exports. Here’s how they can drive up imports. Here’s how we could invest.” But it wasn’t clear in the way that they were showing it.

So, instead of just putting the data out there and saying, “Here’s what we think is going to happen,” you have to say, “Okay, let’s walk you through step by step. Here’s what we thought was going to happen.” And you show sort of one thing at a time and walk people through it, “Here’s the range of what we think could happen. Now here’s one specific thing. Like, if this happens, our model believes X. And so, we have the opportunity to invest in this because this will make something else improve.”

People can take in complex stories, nuanced stories, but, honestly, not all at once. We are good at learning things step by step, building on what we’ve learned. And this is one of the reasons why I’ve never been a fan of the phrase, “Explain it like I’m five,” because I’m not five. I have the ability to understand a lot more things than a five-year-old can.

I’m not stupid. I’m just uninformed. I can understand a lot if you just let me know how to do this piece by piece. So, one of the things that we encourage people to do, in this kind of transformation, is make sure that those key points, if there are a lot of points you want to make, don’t do it all at once, because it’s overwhelming to people.

Graphs aren’t poetry. You don’t have to say the most with the least amount of words or the least amount of pixels or, you know, ink on the screen.

Imagine the meetings that you have been in, where somebody comes in and they’re very proud of what they’ve done, and they put a slide up on the screen. And the same slide stays on the screen for five minutes, 10 minutes, and they’re talking you through it, but none of it changes.

And when it first came up on the screen, it was so overwhelming, you thought, “I don’t know what to make of this. I don’t even know what I’m looking at.” And you tune out right away. And then you’re forced to stare at the same thing for the next 10 minutes, and it is death. But if you, instead, were the person who was going to present the same information, you can reveal it piece by piece.

Give somebody an idea of what the context was. Give somebody a baseline. Add things to it step by step by step. And so, by the end, you can have that same complicated view, but people understand it because you built it for them piece by piece.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. This brings me back to my Bain days. We used to say, “One slide, one point,” was a mantra that was mostly followed with some exceptions. Is that something that you agree with?

Mike Cisneros
I think, in principle, yes. It’s also kind of one graph, one slide, if possible, especially if you are presenting live. Now we all live in a world of constraints, where sometimes you have to listen to what you’re being told and they say, “This is going to be part of a bigger presentation. You’re only going to get two slides. So, figure out what to put on it.”

And most folks just jam as much information as they can all at once, lots of words, six-point font because they have to get all the details in, all the caveats. And I got to tell you, the older I get, the higher my minimum point size is for acceptable fonts. I used to design much, much, smaller type, and now I think, all right, 14 points if you’re going to present it up on a screen, 14 points or higher please, because I cannot read that, especially from the back of the room.

Generally speaking, yes, you want to minimize what you are asking people to look at in a live setting because you want them to listen to you. And guess what? People cannot read and listen at the same time. It uses the same part of your brain. It’s that verbal part of your brain, verbal processing, which is why I try not to put tables up in front of people when I’m in a workshop or when I’m in a meeting because everybody starts reading the table and doing math at you, and trying to fact-check you.

And you might be saying to them, literally, “Here’s what I want you to look at,” and they are not listening to you because they’re trying to figure out what to look at. So, yes, making sure that if you’re presenting live, making sure that you are the thing that is the presentation and the slides are just there to support you.

This isn’t the case if you’re going to send something around where you have to have a lot of words on the screen, but that’s where the difference comes in of making sure you have a story that you can write down in words and be present on the slide that you’re sending out to everybody or the takeaway, the memo, whatever it is that your organization does so that it is clear and there’s no room for misinterpretation as to what you want people to take away from this and what you want people to do with this.

Because if you don’t want people to do anything with what you’re sharing with them, honestly, why are you sharing it in the first place?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, well said. Okay. Well, so now we talk about a story and data. For folks who aren’t even sort of fundamentally, principally, grasping, what is a data story? Can you maybe give us an example of what that might sound like in terms of, “Hey, we have a narrative, and then we have some data that fits in there”?

Mike Cisneros
Sure. I can give you an example of data versus a data story. Data is, we have some call center data. We keep track of when calls come in. We keep track of how many we get on any given day. And we can look through this on a daily basis, on an average, across days, on a days-of-the-week sort of basis.

And sometimes there are days where there are more calls, sometimes there are days where there’s less, sometimes there’s times when we see atypical numbers of calls. I can put a graph in front of somebody that shows a day where those numbers of calls were just unusual. There was a lot in some minutes, there was zero in other minutes, and it would just look confusing. But, “Oh, that’s probably bad data.”

Or, you could tell the data story of, “What we are normally expecting is to see this two peak, this bimodal distribution over the course of a day. We see peaks in the morning on the East Coast. We see a little peak around lunchtime on the West Coast. On this one particular day, we saw these weird drop-offs where it went to zero, and then it spiked all the way up to like three times as many calls. And then it dropped to zero and then it spiked up again. And this happened three times over the course of an hour.”

“Why did this happen? Well, we didn’t know at first because the people who worked in the call center didn’t report anything was unusual. We only found this by looking at call logs later on. And it turns out that an engineer, who we spoke to had the answer, said that there was call tracking software that had crashed and rebooted three different times during that hour.”

“So, what had happened was that each one of those calls wasn’t being tracked for a certain period of time. And when the software came back on, it said, ‘Every active call, it starts right now.’ And so, it went zero, zero, a bunch of calls. And then it went zero, zero, a bunch of calls. What this tells us is that we do need to address a problem that didn’t seem to be a problem in the data because this system failed.”

“And even though it failed gracefully this time, it doesn’t mean it won’t fail catastrophically the next time. So, what we need to do is investigate why this happened and what we can do to mitigate this problem in the future.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, it’s funny, I mean, in a way, call center volumes might be among the most boring things around. And yet, when you put it in this format, it’s like a mystery, like, “Ooh, what happened? Let’s find out. Let’s see. Oh.” And then, catastrophic, I mean, it could be, in terms of, “Who knows what that software is attached to and what that’s going to mean for people?”

So, I really appreciate that example in terms of night and day, with the first one being, “Hey, here’s some funky call numbers. How about that?” As opposed to the taking us through the step-by-step sequence narrative of, “Oh, we’ve got a mystery. Oh, and here’s what’s going on. And here’s the implication of that.”

Mike Cisneros
And moreover, “Who are you talking to? Who are you telling this story to?” If you’re telling the story to the person who’s in charge of customer service, then they’re going to care that there’s a chance that they’re going to have an outage for hours and hours, where their customers aren’t going to be able to get involved or able to get service at all. So, they’re going to want to do something about it.

So, you deliver this information in a way that’s going to mean something to them and motivate them to take action. Whereas, instead, if you just looked at the data and didn’t bother to talk to anybody else about it, you might say, “Well, this data is clearly wrong. I mean, I was in the call center.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, just ignore it and move on.

Mike Cisneros
“Yeah, everything is fine. It was just a fluke. Like, just leave it out of the report. Just leave that day out of the weekly report. We’ll average the other days and it’ll be fine.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Thank you. Well, Mike, could you share with us the most common and destructive mistakes you see, and give us the better way?

Mike Cisneros
So, the common mistake I see is when people come to us and they learn how to improve their communications, how to clean up their graphs, use color differently, think about their audience, all of the things that we teach them to do. The most common mistake is folks try and change everything all at once, and try and do everything in every communication that they ever build. And that is counterproductive because you do not have time to do this.

All of the things that are going to improve communication, they do take time. Now, the more you do them, the more you get practiced at them, the less time they do take, but cleaning up a graph takes a little bit of time. So, if you’re just firing up something to send out to your colleagues really quickly, don’t bother making it look as pretty as you possibly can. But if you’re going to be presenting something to the C-suite, then, yes, absolutely.

Hopefully, you’ve practiced and done this a few times before so that when it comes time for that big high-stakes communication, you’re ready to do it. But you can’t spend all of your time doing this. I would just ask that people spend a little bit more time than they tend to doing these things, thinking about what your audience is going to see versus what you are used to seeing because people do this.

They spend almost all their time exploring their data, and then it comes time to share it with somebody else and they’ve run out of time because, like you said, it’s a mystery. We’re trying to figure out what happened. We are curious people. That’s natural. But you have to remember that that final thing that you share with somebody else is the only part of your work that anybody ever sees. So, it has to represent it as well and as persuasively as it possibly can. So, take a little bit of time to make it better, but you don’t always have to do everything every time.

And the consequential mistake, the most damaging thing that folks can do is, in their enthusiasm to change the way their organization communicates is to take away the things that other people are used to seeing because that is the best way to get things to not be adopted, “Hey, what happened to the weekly report I used to see? Why does it look different? I don’t like this because it’s different.”

It might be objectively better, but it is not familiar, and there’s a much higher hurdle to overcome that unfamiliarity than we think there is. So, when you’re trying to change, this is a change management thing, of course, is you want to make sure that you are trying out new techniques, maybe on lower-stakes things, with people who are already on board with the idea of doing something new, on projects that are one-offs rather than things that everybody in the organization is used to seeing.

Or, maybe just augment what you’re used to doing with new things rather than replacing what people have come to rely on. And I’ll be honest, most of the things that people have come to rely on, we don’t need. They’re just safety blankets. Do you need all of these tables of data in your weekly reports, in your monthly reports? Do people look at them?

No, they don’t. They just want to know that they can if it comes time to be questioned on them. So, that’s what I would say is make sure that you are being conscious of other people’s need to have what they are familiar with and adding new things rather than taking away what everybody is used to.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now this, this reminds me again, I’m thinking about Bain times with the appendix. It’s like all the stuff is in the appendix. So, is that an appropriate tactical approach you like? Or, are there others in terms of, “I am giving you the familiar thing you’ve come to expect and I’m also doing it better”?

Mike Cisneros
I like an appendix. I like, “I can send you this data separately.” I like a, “We can talk about these details offline.” I’m also a huge proponent of having your actual presentation be shorter with a few backup slides ready to go, because I hate pre-answering everybody’s possible question. If you imagine you’re in a room with 20 people and somebody has a question, well, now you know that 5% of the people in the room have that question.

So, okay, fine. You can answer that question. If you have pre-answered it, 95% of the people didn’t care and they’re sitting through something they’re not interested in. But when somebody asks a question and you say, “Oh, we looked at that. I actually do have a slide I can address that with,” and you bring it up, it looks like a magic trick. And people assume that any question that gets asked, like you’re going to be Johnny-on-the-spot, ready to show them another slide.

And if you can’t, you just say, “We did look at that. I don’t have the slide with me, but I can talk with you about that after the fact.” And what happens is you get shorter, focused presentations, everybody’s happier, everybody thinks you’re a genius. And, honestly, it’s no different than what you would normally do. It’s, just, people aren’t bored. They’re excited, especially because the presentation is shorter and everybody likes that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you’re right. I like that a lot. It’s win-win. So, it’s shorter meetings if no one asks. And if they do ask you look even more awesome than if you just anticipated it in advance.

Mike Cisneros
Absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I guess, I’d also love to get your take on where, so there’s your book, of course, but what are some top resources that you might recommend for where can we behold? Because, I think, many of us maybe have never seen a masterful data story ever presented in their life, unfortunately.

So, where might you point people to, where I can look at examples of, “Oh, okay, that’s an amazing data story. I think I get the memo and what Mike is talking about versus the stuff I’m seeing at work every day”?

Mike Cisneros
One of the places that I learned to hone my own skills in data visualization was, believe it or not, the software product Tableau has a public-facing aspect to it, where people can do data analysis on their own data. And for a while, and I think still to this very day, people create their own data stories using this ostensibly dashboarding tool, this BI tool.

But you can wrestle it into being able to tell, essentially, any kind of story you want to do if you put in the time and the effort and the creativity to do it. So that’s where I learned more about how to investigate things, how to present them to an audience in a way that is more narrative, more story-like, and that is Tableau Public is what it has always been called.

But as far as a professional organization, more in the data journalism space, the website called The Pudding is really good at this. And their URL is Pudding.cool. And they do an excellent job of investigating more not just pop culture but socially relevant stories that are data related.

And they have great narratives that they can deliver in this scrolling web format or interactive web format so you can see not just the story that they have curated for you but, oftentimes, you’re able to investigate and play with the data and see how does this relate to you specifically, and I’ve always been a fan of their work.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. One of my favorite resources in terms of, I just found myself randomly looking at slide deck after slide deck, which doesn’t happen that often in terms of, “These are riveting and I want more,” it was the venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz, and we’ll link all these in the show notes, their slide share.

They had all these decks in which they were, well, now they’re so old, I’m pulling it up right now. But the principles still apply in terms of we’ve got a headline, we’ve got a clear data, a picture that connects to that headline, and then we go, “Oh, okay.” And then one connects to the next, connects to the next. And I thought that was excellent. Do you know of any others in the business-y realm?

Mike Cisneros
The unfortunate answer is I don’t because I don’t think the organizations that do that, or that are focusing on that are putting a lot of them out. Like, you said, like you’re looking at maybe they’re like pitch decks for instance. And that’s just not my world. Like, I’m not really looking at that for pleasure anymore. So, my answer is I don’t. I don’t have a resource for you there.

Pete Mockaitis
Okie-dokie. Well, can you tell us any top things we should do or not do as we venture into this world of improving our data storytelling?

Mike Cisneros
One of the most important things you can do as a storyteller in all facets of storytelling is to practice. Every time you’re going to give a presentation and you’ve got your materials, maybe you’ve got them updated and cleaned up and optimized the way that you want to optimize them, don’t assume that, on the day you are going to know what you are going to say in front of an audience just because you have put the slides together for them.

You never want the first time you say the words you’re presenting to people to be in front of those people. So, taking that time to practice. And I believe that people are more comfortable practicing out loud than they used to be because we do a lot more talking to our computers and our webcams than we used to, you know, five, 10 years ago. But it still requires you to practice if you want to get comfortable at what you’re doing.

And this, I’m speaking to my fellow introverts out there. This is what makes you more comfortable is practicing. I don’t believe that being introverted means that you are shy and that you don’t want to speak in front of people. I believe it means you like to be in control of the situation. And what better way to be in control and confident in the situation than to practice it so that you have been there before.

So, practice what you’re going to say, think about it, think about it even without your slides because what if, “Uh-oh, the projector doesn’t work today,” and you have to give your presentation anyway. If you have practiced without your slides, you will be able to do that. And, by the way, that’s always a good idea, practicing without your slides. It forces you to remember what it is that’s going to come next.

It lets you free up part of your mind to actually look at your audience while you’re talking and get a sense of, “Are they tracking with you? Do they seem like they need you to speed up? Do they seem like they need you to slow down?” This is an excellent way to improve your data storytelling.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And I got to ask, what about AI?

Mike Cisneros
“What about AI?” It’s the question on everybody’s mind all of the time. I think we get caught up a lot on algorithms and on LLMs. You never want to forget that the point of what we’re doing is making people’s lives better. So, algorithms, LLMs, AI, that all is going to help us think through what needs to be said. But ultimately, what’s going to happen is a human being is going to have to convince another human being to do something.

I don’t think the best LLM in the world can make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Like, somebody still has to actually physically do the things that are going to take place in our physical world. And that’s what all of our decisions kind of boil down to is what’s going to happen in our world. And, nowadays, think about how we’re already starting to realize that there is a version of fingerprinting that you can do for, “Oh, this was written by an AI model.”

That’s the whole, “Oh, there’s a lot of em dashes in here. Did you write this?” Or, like the tone and the style is very much starting to be recognizable. You don’t want your work to be pointed out as, “Oh, that’s not yours. You just let the AI do that,” because you’re always going to be blamed or celebrated for whatever you show to people.

You’re not going to have the opportunity to say, “Oh, was I wrong? That was the tool. The tool did that.” You can still use the tools, but you also have to vet the tools, and then you have to bring in the other context that, let’s be honest, none of our tools are ever going to have all of the context we need to put together the most effective communication for another person that we need to. So, they’re good adjuncts, but they’re not replacements for what we need to do in order to communicate.

Pete Mockaitis
And to that point of them being good adjuncts, are there any best and worst practices you’ve seen with regard to their use when it comes to slides and presentations?

Mike Cisneros
I think they’re good now for helping you to think through different ways of saying what you want to say, or, “I have something I want to say, I need to say it more succinctly. Maybe show me different ways of visualizing this data set. Show this to me as a bar or a line or a dot plot or different ways.” And maybe that will help you to iterate more rapidly. And that’s always good.

It’s always good to do that kind of iteration in the early stages of your process. But at the end stages of your process, it honestly has to be you and your expertise and your confidence and your knowledge of your audience that makes those final decisions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, Mike, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Mike Cisneros
One thing that I wanted to mention, following up with this, because it’s authenticity that I think people are going to value. I mean, they’re always valuing authenticity, but I think that’s going to become even more valuable in the future. And I was at a conference a few months ago where this topic came up, and the moderator was asking these people, it was literally on a panel about AI adoption, and they were asking them, “What makes you likely to trust a visualization or a report or a news story?”

And two out of the three people said, “If I’m familiar with the creator’s body of work, that’s what’s going to make me feel like I trust it.” And the other person said, “If I can see and verify the sources and methods used by the creator, that’s what makes me trust that work.” So, if people can tell that the work is not authentically 100% you, why are people going to trust the machine over you, the credible human?

So, that’s why, I think, we need to practice being compelling and meaningful and creating those engaging communications in that authentic manner to build up the credibility that is very hard to gain, but it is very easy to lose. And if you have that, then your voice and your reputation will end up being the most persuasive one in the room.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mike Cisneros
So, I always liked this quote from Peter Shilton, who was a goalkeeper for the England National Team several years ago.

He said, “As a goalkeeper, you need to be good at organizing the people in front of you and motivating them. You need to be able to see what’s going on and react to the threats, just like a good manager in business.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experimental or piece of research?

Mike Cisneros
There was a study from Michigan in 2008 that’s in the Psychological Science Journal, I believe, that says “If it’s hard to read, it’s hard to do.” So, always show things to people in a way that is easy for them to consume because, otherwise, they’ll think that whatever you’re asking them to do is going to be more difficult than it actually is.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Mike Cisneros
For business, my favorite book is Factfulness by Hans Rosling, which is about how things are actually not as terrible as folks would have you believe in the world. Fiction-wise, I really enjoyed Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Mike Cisneros
My favorite tool, believe it or not, is my Bullet Journal. It is something that has helped me to stay organized, because we are always doing so many different things at once. It was the only way I could keep everything straight, and I still am a proponent of tactile physical ways of staying organized. I have a big whiteboard up on my wall in my home office. That is my calendar of ground truth, believe it or not, is my whiteboard on the wall.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really connects and resonate with folks, you hear them quote it back to you often?

Mike Cisneros
“The goal isn’t to make your slides look better. It is to make them work better.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mike Cisneros
So, my co-authors and I, that’s Cole Nussbaumer Knaflic, who founded and wrote the original Storytelling with Data book, Alex Velez, we all work for the same company called Storytelling with Data, which is at StorytellingWithData.com. You can find Before and After, which is our new book, and all the other books there. If you want to find me, I am @mikevizneros. That’s Mike V-I-Z-N-E-R-O-S on all of the socials. Because in the data visualization world, using VIZ in your handle was the height of fashion in the mid-2000s.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mike Cisneros
Well, aside from the obvious, which is that you should absolutely read Before and After, you had a guest on recently, Ruth Milligan, and it was a fabulous episode on speaking in public. So, my challenge to everybody is along those lines, which is to speak in public in a low-stakes way, in a professional way, whatever it is, especially if you are a self-proclaimed introvert, because this will get you more comfortable at communicating, which is going to be the key to unlocking more success and being more awesome in your job.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mike, thank you.

Mike Cisneros
Thank you. I appreciate it.

Pete Mockaitis
Ruth, welcome!

Ruth Milligan
Hello! How are you?

Pete Mockaitis
I’m good. Very good. I’m excited to chat about speaking. I’m very motivated, if you will, to be discussing it.

Ruth Milligan
No pun intended. There we go.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’d love to hear, you’ve been in the speaking game for quite a while, coaching, consulting, curating, speaking yourself. Can you tell me, what’s the most surprising and fascinating thing you’ve discovered about us humans and speaking over the course of your career?

Ruth Milligan
The most fascinating is that we don’t want to hear ourselves talk. And that’s a challenge because we want people to want to listen because that is the number one way to improve.

So, if you can get through that threshold and get through that kind of troublesome sticky spot in your head, that you’re not going to die when you listen to yourself, and that no one actually has to know when you do, it can be very, very, very, very helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s speak right into the heart of that. It’s the most effective way to improve, and yet we don’t want to do it. Can you share why don’t we want to do it? And how can we get over that?

Ruth Milligan
I think our perception of ourselves is always different than what we see. So, for instance, I’ll listen back to every podcast, every recording, and I see my sister because we have a lot of similarities. And I think, “Ooh, do I want to be like my sister?” My sister is fine. Don’t get me wrong. But you’re like, “Oh, I want to be me.”

And then sometimes it’s, “Ooh, do I really sound like that?” and we surprise ourselves. And then that’s hard because, at least I believe, we say, “Ooh,” that’s not what we want our audiences to hear. And so, there’s this disconnect that we have to sort of bring together as to, “What do we want to be perceived and seen as? And how are we doing that?” “And are they this far apart or are they this far apart?”

And the best way to do that is habits, practice, watching, listening back. And if you just haven’t done it, it’s a little cringy. Have you listened? I bet when you started your podcast, you started listening back to yourself, right? What did you learn when you started that?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I did. Well, it’s funny, well, from lots of keynote speeches, I listened and watched those recordings as well. And so, I’ve had to go both ways. And at times I think, “Well, this is so fun and entertaining. I wish more speeches were just like this.”

And other times I’m a little disappointed like, “Oh, Pete, I can tell you didn’t actually do your research, your homework, your practice as much here, and the audience suffered as a result.” And so, I feel some guilt, shame there.

Ruth Milligan
Correct, because you’re playing through your head, “Oh, I coulda, shoulda, woulda,” and you can’t dial back time. You can’t have that time back.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Although, of course, if you listened to your recordings before the big audience presentation, you can. You can fix it.

Ruth Milligan
Correct. That’s it. And I think you can’t draw it back, and there is a little bit of regret. I don’t live with a lot of regret, but I think that in those moments you say, “Oh, it could have been…” You have to work through those emotions. And so, that’s what happens when you watch yourself is you’re going through a bunch of emotions that you normally don’t experience. And so, it’s easier just to not do it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, boy, now you’re bringing me back to, I think, the most troubling recording ever. I remember I did a whole school assembly. It was at Hayworth High School, if anyone was there. And I was just starting my career as a professional speaker. And I had mostly spoken in the student audience context at leadership conferences where they selected one student from each high school.

And in those contexts, I was crushing it. On the speaker evaluations, I was number one out of 20 plus. So, I thought, “I’m great at speaking. I’m down with the young people.” And then in this different environment of high school students, I bombed. It was really spooky. I asked the principal for an endorsement. And then he told me in a lengthy email how terrible I was and how they wish they could have gotten their money back.

Ruth Milligan
In an email?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Ruth Milligan
Oh, bad practice.

Pete Mockaitis
I was shocked. And so, I shared it with a speaker-mentor friend, Mawi, episode number one. And, really, he’s so good, he said, “Well, Pete, it’s really great that you’re doing this because a lot of people just don’t even ever want to look at it.” And it was very helpful in terms of rewatching it together. And he said, “Well, first of all…” Go ahead.

Ruth Milligan
No, I was going to say together. That’s a very important word.

Pete Mockaitis
Watching it together, it was so useful, he said, “Well, first of all, Pete, we got to take some of what the principal said with a grain of salt, because he said, ‘I heard nothing about bad things.’” This is a direct quote for the email, “And yet I’m seeing multiple occasions of this audience laughing. So, clearly, it was not 100 % bad.” Okay, cool. So, we’ve got some perspective. “And also note…”

And then we really got into it, he was like, “Hey, Pete, they don’t even understand what that word means. It’s, like, you could be speaking gibberish to this audience in this place. Also, tell me about the setup and with the client.” And it’s like, “Yes, no matter what happens, it’s going to be your fault, so you have to grab the context, the information, the goals from them even when they’re being difficult in saying, ‘Oh, I guess that sounds good.’”

And so, it was so useful going through it. And it might have been painful, but, in some ways, I was just so spooked and surprised to have missed the mark so epically, the most ever in my life in the speaking environment that I just had to see what the heck happened here with a pro.

Ruth Milligan
The biggest extra learning that we’ve had, since particularly we wrote the book, was one research study assembled all the other research studies on feedback, like 500, I don’t know, maybe millions, I don’t know. But there was one central thing, and if your listeners are listening to anything about feedback, this is it.

When you speak and someone hears you, you get to go first in giving yourself feedback before they do. Because when they’re giving you feedback, they’re the ones learning. When you are the one first reflecting or giving yourself feedback, you’re learning. And learning is the goal to do better. If I said to you, “Hey, Pete, that really sucked,” like your teacher or your principal, that’s how I feel and that’s my opinion. And you live in choice, like every audience does, to accept or reject it. You can believe it or not.

But if I said, “Hey, Pete, how do you think you did?” You’re forced to think through, “Did I prepare enough? How did that go? What did I feel like?” And I may not have to say anything to you.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So that’s the best practice when giving feedback is to ask first and…

Ruth Milligan
And the person who’s giving feedback actually says, “Tell me how you feel” first. Full stop. It seems kind of silly and rudimentary, but it’s so powerful because 90% of what you’re going to tell me is what I might want to tell you, but because you’ve come to the conclusion, you’re more likely to want to fix it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and if you do discover, “Oh, there’s epic blind spots here,” well, then it’s probably also still effective because then there’s an emotional component of huge surprise like, “Whoa.” And then it’ll probably stick even more, even though you’re sharing the same things.

Ruth Milligan
So, can I tell a quick story?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes.

Ruth Milligan
I gave some feedback to a speaker after a big presentation practice day. We were at dinner. And I’ll call him Tom. I said, “Hey, Tom, do you know what an umm-er is?” And he says, “No, I don’t know what an umm-er is.” And I said, “Well, okay. An umm-er is this, somebody who uses um’s, filler words.” And I said, “Tom, do you know you’re an umm-er?” And he said, “I am?” And I said, “Yeah.” He goes, “Like a few times?” And I was like, “Hmm, like every fourth word.”

And he really wasn’t interested in the feedback. And everyone in the room heard it. Everyone in the room looked at me, and said, “Help him.” So, two days later, we come back for another round and he comes barreling in with the same umming, not even attempting. And I said, “Hey, Tom, do you remember the recording I sent you? Did you have a chance to listen to a minute of it?” Because I’m looking for him to hear himself, right, versus me just telling him.

He’s like, “No, no, I didn’t need to listen to that. I just decided I’m going to be more conversational.” “How’s that working out for you?” He was solving the problem he thought he had, not the problem he had. And I couldn’t, at that point, you say, “Okay, I did my best.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s illustrative, because I think we all do that, or can do that, to some extent, in that, being more conversational is a thing that might be effective, but it’s a different solution to a different thing.

Ruth Milligan
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
But it’s interesting how in our brains, especially if we’re not a master of a thing yet, we can conflate, because I think, in many ways, mastery of something is largely about the capacity to distinguish between nuances. And if you’re not yet mastering, you’re going to think, “Oh, umming means not conversational.” And I’ve done that in other domains in terms of…

Ruth Milligan
So, what would that mean to you if you heard, “I made it more conversational”? Like, you’re a conversationalist for a living. Like, I couldn’t even make the connection to why he thought getting rid of a filler word would be solved by becoming more casual. Anyway, we don’t have to dissect it, but like it is interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, there’s an interesting link there and…

Ruth Milligan
Yeah, I think it’s illustrative of the gap between what we believe we need and what we do. And if we don’t watch ourselves, we’re going to pick the wrong thing.

Pete Mockaitis
I think I’ve come to learn in life, generally speaking, if we want to advance or improve a thing, a domain, we’ll probably require either time and/or money, and/or outside expertise, and/or confronting our own weakness, foibles, mistakes or so.

So, I would just say that, in a way, humility itself is a resource we can deploy to improve on a thing and sometimes it might be unpleasant but it can save you time and money. So, it’s like, “Humble yourself and watch the recording.”

Ruth Milligan
Exactly. And I promise, no one’s ever died. I mean, there are things that we do that are painful in life. That really shouldn’t be one of them, but it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, thank you. Well, right off the bat, that’s great stuff.

Ruth Milligan
There you go. That’s all we got. Are we done? I’m just kidding.

Pete Mockaitis
We could be. But you got a book here, The Motivated Speaker.

Ruth Milligan
We do.

Pete Mockaitis
And you start the book, The Motivated Speaker, by discussing, this is so meta, the concept of a threshold concept. So, what do you mean by this term? And why is that important?

Ruth Milligan
Sure. About 10 years ago, two guys, Meyer and Land, put a label on the thing that is recursive, troublesome, sticky, and when you encounter it, you can’t go back, you don’t unsee it. It’s that transformative kind of liminal space, you have to reach for it. And when you’re on the other side of it, everything else you do becomes better.

So, to the title of your podcast, How to be Awesome at Your Job, there are threshold concepts about business. There are threshold concepts about podcasting. There are threshold concepts that you had to learn certain things in order to be really good at this podcast game. And if you didn’t learn them, you would be average at it.

Our mentor who named the concepts for learning to write, we asked her, we said, “Does anyone ever name the concepts for learning to speak?” And she said, “No.” So, she took us under her wing for the better part of a year, and the only thing we wanted to do was just be better coaches. We wanted to understand, when somebody called us with a problem, we had an anchor to say, “What haven’t you learned yet?” Not just, “What are you doing wrong?” And those are two different things.

“I can hear you say ‘um,’ but what haven’t you learned yet? You haven’t learned that breath is a central character in the story of getting rid of your filler words. You haven’t learned that the habit of working out of that is the threshold concept for replacing your filler words.”

So, we cut the cloth a little differently on this communicator versus communication, the book is about the human as the communicator, not about the thing that you’re doing, like producing. It’s not about presentations. It’s not about script writing. It’s not about slide design. It is about the things that you need to do to be an awesome speaker.

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s really an interesting distinction right there. It’s, “Hey, knock off the vocal pauses. Cut it out.” But rather a threshold concept, “What haven’t you learned yet?” Like, the threshold of a door, it’s like, “Oh, once I enter through this, this has been opened up for me.”

Ruth Milligan
It’s a portal. Totally, a portal.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, could you give us an example of a threshold concept, like a there’s a time before we learned it, and then we had to get it, and then we got it, and then it’s transformative?

Ruth Milligan
Sure. These are things that we have encountered forever, but they just haven’t been organized or named in a way that they’re easily accessible. So, we didn’t create them or discover them, but we named them. Very big distinction. And so, here’s an example. If my client, the umm-er, had understood that nobody’s a natural speaker. If he said, “Ruth, you’re a natural speaker,” I’d say that’s BS. I’m actually not a natural speaker. I’m a well-practiced speaker.

Nobody comes out speaking out of the womb. We all have to learn the habits of speaking. If he had appreciated that he has to work out of that habit, like he worked into it, he would have taken the few tips I gave him and walked around saying, “Okay, I have to do this thing.” I gave him a specific thing to do. He didn’t do it. And that’s the habit.

So, the first one is speaking is habitual, not natural. We don’t just become a speaker because our mouth is open. We become a speaker because we practice at our genre with our audiences, to our goals, with our content, with our story.

So, there are six of them. They’re all in the same sort of category of things that you obviously have to encounter. And once you do, things become a lot clearer as to how to become that great speaker you want to become.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So, a threshold concept, speaking is habitual, not natural, that is a threshold concept insofar as prior to internalizing this, you are kind of stuck.

Ruth Milligan
Right. And I might say, “Oh, I can’t be that speaker.” Like, you might say to yourself, “Oh, yeah, that person is such a natural. I could never be that way.” And our argument is that’s a lie. It’s a myth. And with the right practice, like anything, you can become better at it.

And so, to dial down that, like, “I can’t do it” to “How can I do it?” well, the first thing you need to do is realize that if you practice. So, here’s a good example. We did like a practice podcast about five months ago, and I came out with, like, a bunch of ums. I was mortified. This is my business. And I walked around for a week and I just did the trick that I know that I need to do and I’m happy to share it with you.

Every time I spoke, I worked my way out of it. A few days later, it was good. What is it, 21 days to a better habit, generally? But if you don’t know you have the habit, and you don’t know how to get out of it, then you can’t practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think that, well, I believe that, that great speaking is habitual and not natural. For those who are skeptical, can you prove it, Ruth? I mean, you’ve got many clients who have improved, but let’s just imagine, who were some of the greatest speakers throughout history, or in our modern era? And did they, in fact, have to build up a lot of habits?

Ruth Milligan
I’ll give you one. Nikki Glaser reported, before she gave her opening monologue at the Golden Globes, she practiced 94 times. I forget how long it was, six or seven minutes. She counted 94 times. She shows up and she doesn’t miss a beat, but she doesn’t want to take any risk.

Even though she might’ve even also been on a teleprompter, she still practiced 94 times because, in comedy, and her genre, this is a genre, us speaking on a podcast, Nikki has got a genre, timing is everything. And if she’s not practicing that timing, she’s not going to land the joke, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes.

Ruth Milligan
Martin Luther King, actually, his talk, most consequential talk, I believe, punctuates with the right timing to make the points, “We’re moving from the heat and oppression of today to the oasis of freedom of tomorrow.” He didn’t say, “We’re moving from the heat and oppression of today to the…” It has intentionality. It has stickiness. It has suspense. It has inflection. I promise you he practiced that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so I think comedians are a great example because, in a way, they do seem very natural to us, “Oh, they’re just so funny. That guy, he’s just so funny.” So, how much are they practicing those sets?

Ruth Milligan
Here’s a good example. Last month, I saw Tina Fey and Amy Poehler together in their tour. And at one point, Amy came out on stage and said, “Okay, everybody, this is the point where I’m working out some new content.” And she stopped a few times, and, “Oh, got to work on that. That’s not working out.”

Like, she’s trying to see if what she’s saying will land. She is writing in the moment. So, I think that humor is one of the hardest genres to write or deliver, personally, because there’s so much expectation from the audience to get the joke, to get the context, and to say, like, “I’m smarter because I got it. I feel smarter because I understand the humor and it made me laugh. It me feel a certain way.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I’ve heard anecdotes that it can, indeed, be well over a hundred times of trying, cutting, refining, refining the material.

Ruth Milligan
Yeah. And so, to think that somebody can show up on a Monday, and say, “Oh, let’s give a talk on a Tuesday and wing it and make it work,” is a little bit of, “Oh, you must be superhuman because I don’t know anybody that can do that,” unless they have been spending, you know. Here’s a good example. We’ve been spending the better part of 20 months with our content. I should be able to, and can if you’d quiz me, I have one line for each of the concepts.

It took us months and months to write and refine, and write and refine, and get to that quick point that you would understand that still gets to the point. So, we can’t shortcut these things, is the bottom line.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so there we have it. First and foremost, habitual not natural. Can we hear the other five concepts?

Ruth Milligan
Sure. And I will do it with one sentence each to see if I’ve got this down. Ready?

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Ruth Milligan
Speaking is social. Your audience is always making meaning of what you’re saying. You’re rarely ever just talking to yourself, and if you are, it’s probably before coffee and it’s a babble. If your audience speaks Spanish, they don’t want to hear it in French. That goes for jargon. It goes for acronyms. Your audience is also, it’s fleeting, meaning your audience is there and then they’re not, meaning your words are not going to stick. They’re going to fade. Speaking is social.

Speaking is embodied. If I asked you to pick up the book and read a sentence, which I’m not going to, you would be reading the written word, versus embodying it, delivering it, speaking it. My favorite embodiment is, if I said to you these words, you would know who the speaker was because he embodies this pace and tone and rhythm, “Last night, Michelle and I, we went to the movies.” You know who I’m talking about?

Pete Mockaitis
So, Michelle, so I will go with Barack Obama.

Ruth Milligan
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
But what I remember most about Barack Obama is that he’ll go slow and then he speeds it up.

Ruth Milligan
There you go. If somebody had written that script for him, which would have said, like, “Last night, my wife, Michelle, and I went to the Lennox Theatre to see ‘The Terminator’ movie and we had a great time.” That would have been what somebody might have written. See the difference?

So, anyway. So, number three, speaking is embodied. We have to bring our whole, and we have to get it off the page. We can’t just, like, if reading it is not speaking it, so.

Pete Mockaitis
The AI will destroy us all.

Ruth Milligan
Next one. Speaking comes in many genres. This is a genre. Podcasting, keynotes, convention speeches, they’re all different genres, and they have different rules and conventions. And for the most part, the host, you, are setting the rules. So, you tell me how much time we have. You tell me what channel we want to be on. You tell me what topics we want to discuss. Same thing with any conference, any event. So, speaking comes in many genres, and you need to know the conventions to be successful.

Speaking is messy. So, if I ask you, Pete, “What’s your life story?” You might say, “Oh, where should I start?” And the problem is there are many places to start and many places to finish. The iteration of your content, what to get in, what to get out. “How do I take that 100 pounds of information and shove it into a 10-pound bag?” requires the iteration.

Speaking requires feedback, and yours first, mainly first. And if you don’t want to listen to yourself, then you’re going to probably not hit that threshold of true learning.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, each of these are threshold concepts insofar as, if we continue to live in the alternative, the opposite of them, we will stagnate. If we reject that speaking is embodied and we live our lives reading scripts, then we’re stuck.

Ruth Milligan
We are stuck. I think you may be stuck, your ideas will get stuck, your pitches will get stuck, people won’t want to listen to you. I’ll tell you a very quick anecdote. I coached a big tech guy, last month, foreign country, heavy accent. Got him to make some better enunciation so he could be understood.

We worked hard, content, three or four sessions. He did really well. Two weeks later, he gets invited to an internal audience of executives by someone else. He takes none of that practice or habits with him, and he completely fails. And the executive that invited him said, “I’m never inviting him again to anything.”

So, the downside to not really embodying what he had learned and taking it into practice was you don’t even get invited anymore. And, therefore, then your career, “Oh, I can’t put him on stage.” It’s actually what I call a shaded habit. You have something in a small dark room that you do and everyone goes, “Oh, that’s just Pete. He just does that.”

And then you take Pete to a big illuminated stage without support, and Pete’s still doing that, and you say, “Oh, my gosh, didn’t we want to give Pete some coaching before that?” Because now everyone sees it and that’s hard to unsee. And that bridge between sort of the shaded and illuminated is the space that most people don’t appreciate. That’s where you can go through the thresholds, literally, figuratively, and find better practice so that you are invited back and your career doesn’t get thwarted.

I have coached, Pete, many, many, many dozens and dozens of executives whose careers have been largely thwarted because they ignored how hard this is and they didn’t prepare. And they showed up not prepared and embarrassed somebody. Most of the calls I get are from CEOs that say, “That guy didn’t do so well with my client. Can you help?” because the CEO is embarrassed, and they’re feeling a risk for that relationship because that person, who they put in front of that client, true story, the client is very bristly, didn’t like the information, wasn’t a good quarter.

And the executive just keeps throwing more and more and more data at him. And I suggested, “Maybe he just wants to be heard. He doesn’t need any more data. So, can you just maybe stop talking for a minute?” And he’s like, “Oh, I don’t know. I’m supposed to, like…” And you can tell he’s like one of those guys with, like, a briefcase full, decks and decks and decks of data.

And so, he tried it. He said it felt uncomfortable, but the client calmed way down, felt heard, and actually didn’t need anything more. Just needed some space. So, sometimes we don’t read the room right. Sometimes we just need to stop.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, careers thwarted. Well, to the point about, well, I guess now I’m just thinking, like, it’s a little spooky because often we never get the feedback that we need. And so, our career can be thwarted, we don’t even know why. We find ourselves on a performance improvement plan or fired with very vague feedback, which you can’t even call feedback, like, “You know what, it just wasn’t the right fit.” “You know what, we’re trimming costs.” It’s like, “Well, why am I being fired, not the other guy?” “Well, you know, we got to downsize.”

Ruth Milligan
I’ll add this. What about the interview that they give you no feedback on? And they just say, “No, thanks.” And you say, “I got to the third round. Something happened.” I have a son who’s starting to interview for internships, and the first round they gave him no feedback. It’s like, “Well, how are you supposed to learn? You know, you’re 19, how are you supposed to learn?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it could be pretty brutal in that context, if the interviewer is like, “Not my concern. Our concern is picking a winner. We don’t care about you and your life and what happens to you.”

Ruth Milligan
“Even though we just put you through a month of interviews and we just told you, you know, like…” And so, the learning, I think this goes back to, like, “What can we learn in these moments? And are we open to it?” And it’s tricky when you’re really busy and you have a thousand applicants, you don’t want to take time, “Ah, not my problem. Not my monkey. Not my circus. Just don’t want you.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, just as a side note to that, I would say I’ve been in both sides of the interviewing table and I, well, I’m into learning, so I love it when they ask for feedback because then it’s like, “Oh, well, first of all, I know that you want it, because I can’t just assume that everybody wants it. And it is time consuming.” So, one of my favorite instances, I rejected someone for a role. This was in college. And it was for a student consulting organization, because I’m cool like that.

And he asked me for feedback. I was so glad he asked. I gave him lots of feedback. He returned to get into that group the following year, and then went to consult at McKinsey. It’s like, “There you go. That’s hard to get into those consulting posse.” And it was awesome because he asked and I was glad that he asked. So, I guess that’s a tidbit right there. Go ahead and ask.

Ruth Milligan
And I do think, by the way, just to this point, we actually coach people to say, ask for the feedback you want, “How did I do in that opening? How were my transitions? Did it go too long? Did the story work?” I’ve had to give people feedback, like, “You’re a little tone deaf. Like, that story is not good for this audience. You might want to pick something that’s a little less, I don’t know, privileged or a little less offensive.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Something a little less offensive.”

Ruth Milligan
A little less offensive.

Pete Mockaitis
“Not zero offensive but just a touch.”

Ruth Milligan
Yeah. Like, coaching so many years of TEDx, we’d have people with such good ideas, and every now and then you’d get somebody who’s like, “Oh, you haven’t had a lot of feedback lately, I can tell. Okay, we’ll go there. It’s okay.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s so key to ask. And I think you’re right in terms of being more specific about your request, it’s like, “So, how did I do?” It’s like, “Well, I don’t know if you actually want to know, or if you’re just looking for some affirmation, validation, because you’re nervous.” So, I’ll be like, “Ah, good job.” So, it’s hard to know if that’s even sincerely what they want. But when they ask it specifically, it’s like, “Oh, okay, you’re actually keen to know this, so we can go there.”

Ruth Milligan
So, Pete, here’s a question I’ve asked a few podcast hosts. When you have to edit out, your editor has to do an extra big job of editing out filler words and what we call disfluencies, a fancy term, do you ever want to tell the speaker how many you took out?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well, I don’t even think about it now because my editor just does it and we just go.

Ruth Milligan
Well, it’s just a curiosity because you actually have data.

Pete Mockaitis
I do.

Ruth Milligan
You have real data. And then I suggest that maybe you send them both versions. You say, “Here’s your before and here’s your after. If you want to watch, you can.” But at least, that to me, like, the before and after of any recording is the money shot because I can hear what I sounded like here, “Do I want to be in audience A or audience B?” But in these moments that are recorded and you have data, it’s always curious, like, “Does anybody care?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so Ruth, we got our threshold concepts and a top thing is watch, listen to the recording. You’re not going to want to, but that’s the thing that’s going to do it. Can you give us any of your other top dos and don’ts before we shift gears and hear about your favorite things?

Ruth Milligan
Yeah, I guess the other one is, don’t underestimate the power of breath. Everything about breath is what informs pace, suspense, articulation, the ability to finish a sentence strong. If my name is Ruth Milligan, and I run out of breath, I’m going to get really high and then, all of a sudden, I’m going to finish up.

But if my name is Ruth Milligan, and then I get to finish strong because I’m drawing from my diaphragm. So, knowing where to breathe from your diaphragm, not up here. If you breathe from up here, it’s called stacked breathing. I can’t really draw, like, think of it like a crochet hook. I can’t really draw the right volume of breath out.

Breath replaces the filler words. Try to say an um on the count of three while taking a breath. Ready? One, two, three. You cheated.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, but you do got to try. I’m no natural.

Ruth Milligan
So, I walked around for that week and I just took better breaths. I was more conscious about my breaths and my ums went away, the ands, the so’s, whatever. So, that’s the collection of things to draw on whenever you feel as if your speaking isn’t as strong, as confident, as measured or inflection. Look to your breath patterns. Look to your breath habits.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Any other top don’ts?

Ruth Milligan
Don’t think that you write like you speak. I cannot impress upon this one enough. I can tell within about 15 or 20 seconds if someone is reading me what they wrote versus delivering. We don’t ever want to be read to, unless we are like Isabel Allende or one of these great authors who comes to read me a chapter of your book.

I remember going to TED one year and actually Isabel Allende was on stage and she came and read, and I just could not get over, like, how they let her read. They don’t let anyone read anything. There’s no teleprompters, there’s no notes, you know, years and years of being in that genre. And then I thought to myself, “She’s not speaking. She’s actually reading her written words.”

And then John McWhorter was the one who really broke open the threshold concept for me that, like, we write in very long sentences and we speak in very short sentences. And when you are writing to speak, you don’t usually write the right way. And I had a presentation we coached last week, a panel discussion, and someone took, I think, about 10 slides of different, she was working up to talking about jazz in schools, and she was almost poetry.

She kind of showed a progression of what music does, and just used one word per image. It was just this punctuated, like 10 words. And the audience got quiet as a mouse. They were wrapped, because she wasn’t talking on, on, on, on, on. And she grabbed everyone and then she had them for her next four minutes of her presentation. It was really beautiful.

And she used long pauses, very curated imagery, perfect words. She nailed it. So, you don’t always have to be in the prose section. You can pull from things that we’ve learned from poetry, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, lovely. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Ruth Milligan
“Don’t make it about you.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Ruth Milligan
Yeah, my most recent one, for sure, is this one, the intersection between speaking, stress, and time.

Pete Mockaitis
What do we know from that study?

Ruth Milligan
We know that when you’re in stress, when your amygdala has a response, actually, time goes like this.

Pete Mockaitis
It expands and contracts.

Ruth Milligan
Correct. And it gets slower, you’re just, like, “Well, I have a lot more time than I think.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Ruth Milligan
It is this one.

Pete Mockaitis
Several Short Sentences About Writing, Verlyn Klinkenborg.

Ruth Milligan
I just can’t love it enough.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Ruth Milligan
My voice memos. Hands down. Full stop.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Ruth Milligan
I actually love to lift weights. It solves so many problems in such a short amount of time.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really connects and resonates with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Ruth Milligan
I think the one I said earlier is the one that I think sticks with me, which is when you’re in front of an audience and you’re feeling nervous, stop making it about yourself. Make it about the audience. And a lot of that anxiety can wash away when you say be of service to them. You’re here to support them. And then you’re taking the focus off of yourself. And a lot of that frenetic nervousness doesn’t have a place anymore.

I had to use it 12 years ago in a sticky situation and it really stuck for me. And every time I have a speaker come in that sort of hamster wheel, I say, “Stop making it about yourself.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Ruth Milligan
I would encourage them to start at TheMotivatedSpeaker.com. It takes you to our larger website. There you can find all the links to the books, all of our podcast recordings, including yours soon, all of our blogs, and everything about our training, coaching, and what we do to help support speakers every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Ruth Milligan
Go find one thing to work on. Just one. Everyone that we coach, even the most seasoned speakers, have one thing to work on. Listen to yourself. Ask for feedback. Just pick one. We actually can’t do many things at once, improve on many things at once. And it might be that shaded habit, that when it becomes illuminated, it could be the thing that’s keeping you back from being awesome at your job.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Ruth, thank you.

Ruth Milligan
Thank you for having me. This was really fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Michael, welcome.

Michael Hoeppner
Hi, thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to get into some of your wisdom that you’ve packaged in your book, Don’t Say Um: How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life. We love all those sorts of things. And it’s funny, as we’re chatting, I’m going to be so self-conscious about saying “um” in this whole conversation.

Michael Hoeppner
You know, I am not the “um” police, to be clear. So, I promise you, I’m turning that off, that awareness right now. But, truthfully, the point of the book, of course, is not that you can never say “um.” The point is, they should not skyrocket when you’re thinking more about yourself and less about your audience.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Well, I was going to kick us off by asking if you could share a particularly surprising or counterintuitive discovery you’ve made from many years of training so many folks on communication. What do us, humans, need to know about communication that we tend to not know?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, it’s a simple idea, which is this, we think, all too often, that talking is all about thinking. Like, if I have smart ideas and I think of smart stuff, I’m going to say smart stuff, and it’s simply not true. Speaking is physical. If you put your hand on your throat, and you say, “Communication is a physical art,” you’ll feel your hand vibrate. If you pound on your chest a little bit, “Communication is a physical art,” your voice changes.

So, the idea communication is all about thinking, messes us up badly. And instead, what we should do is use physical tools and use kinesthetic learning to get better at speaking.

Pete Mockaitis
Michael, I love this idea a lot. And this is a bit of a theme that’s come up a few times in different domains, in that many solutions are not thinking or cognitive-based in order to get to. And here you’re saying that communication is not about thinking but it’s a physical art, like pumping iron, or dancing.

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. And the thing that’s so liberating is, just like pumping iron or dance or any kind of physical or athletic discipline, you can build muscle memory and get better very, very quickly by doing the right exercises.

Pete Mockaitis
So, with regard to communication is not about thinking, it sounds, maybe if I could distinguish that a little bit, I suppose the formulation of that which we intend to communicate is a thinking activity. Fair enough?

Michael Hoeppner
Totally fair.

Pete Mockaitis
But the actual projection, performance, delivery of those ideas, that prior preparation, is a physical art.

Michael Hoeppner
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Understood.

Michael Hoeppner
I mean, we all can relate to that idea of, if I have all these great ideas and then I open my mouth and they all tumble out in a completely disorganized jumble, and then as they do, I become chronically self-conscious about that, and that self-consciousness actually makes the whole job more difficult.

So, I’m not suggesting we don’t need our cognitive faculties to think of smart stuff to say. What I am suggesting is that if you completely remove the physical part of it and just remain in the cognitive category, you are absolutely shortchanging yourself. And the fastest way to improve is by addressing the physical.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, you mentioned fast improvements. Could you tell us a fun story of a client who made some fast improvements and what that before, after, and journey looks like?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, for sure. I’ll mention the one, I actually write about this in my book, I changed a woman’s career in four hours one time. Now, that sounds like I’m bragging and advertising about myself. That’s not the case. What determines if people improve and improve quickly is much more them, what they bring to the situation, more so than what I do, and this woman was ready to learn, and she came in completely brave and ready to jump in with both feet.

Now, “feet” is the operative word there, and I’ll tell you why. She thought that she had a problem with blushing. She had stage fright. She would begin speaking, and instantly she would turn bright red, and this self-consciousness about her blushing was absolutely intolerable. So much so that she would begin to brush her hair back from her face over and over again, putting her hair behind her ears, but what she was really doing was trying to hide from the audience how red her cheeks were.

And so, she would fall into an absolutely compulsive habit of doing this with her hands over and over again. As she did this, she would become so self-conscious, she literally could not even think of the next word in a sentence because all her brain was occupied with was, “Don’t blush, don’t blush, don’t blush, don’t…” You get the idea. But I said feet earlier. The miracle was this. We didn’t focus on blushing. We didn’t even focus on hair smoothing with her fingers.

What I noticed right away was that she constantly shifted her feet back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, almost as though she was looking for somewhere to stand that was solid ground. So instead, I simply put my hands on her feet, and, in fact, I even went further. I tapped the top of her feet as though I were putting little thumbtacks through her feet into the floor. I made her feet anchor into the ground. And, all of a sudden, when she did that, it unlocked a virtuous cycle in which her delivery tools, meaning how you say stuff, not just what you say, her delivery tools totally transformed.

Her breath slowed. Her mouth opened. Her spine got longer. Her hands opened up and got freer, and, all of a sudden, her body began to operate in a way that set her up for success. She calmed down, the cheeks didn’t blush, and she could actually think of a next word to say, and we did this for about four hours. She built a brand-new muscle memory, and she literally got over her stage fright in four hours.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool, the feet. And I recall, when I was nervous with interviews, back in the day, I found that when I planted both my feet firmly on the floor, I just said to myself, “Ground,” or something, that just sort of made me feel solid. And I don’t know, I thought it was maybe a me thing, but maybe you’re finding some universal insights here, Michael. What’s up with the feet?

Michael Hoeppner
Well, your body is evolutionarily designed to do some things. I mean, think about the sacrifices, in terms of evolution, we had to make to be able to stand on two feet rather than four. They’re massive. If you do martial arts, do you stand all crisscrossed and slouched over and constantly move your feet? If you’re learning a dance step, do you constantly shuffle your feet? No. We are built to have a stance in which we’re stacked as tall as we can, anchoring our feet into the floor so we’re balanced, so we can do all kinds of things, like even have our hands free to implement tools, and our voice unlocks very powerfully when we are as tall as we actually are.

And your feet being grounded is the first foundational step of that. So, it’s not just you. In fact, folks out there who are listening, the next time you’re giving a speech or any kind of presentation in which you’re standing, see what unlocks when you just ground your feet into the ground, just like Pete is talking about doing.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think you can even ground your feet to the ground when you’re sitting and it does something.

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, you’re exactly right. But I’ll add a layer to it. Anyone who’s ever taken a yoga class and heard the yoga instructor talk about your “sits” bones, that’s if you sit on your hands and you feel this kind of bony part of your pelvis, that’s the bottom of your kind of hip girdle, would be one way to think about it.

Here’s the sentence, “Those are the feet of your torso.” I’ll say that again, “Those are the feet of your torso.” So, even if you’re seated, you can think about those anchoring into the chair just as your feet would anchor into the ground.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, while we’re talking about tiny adjustments and posture, I think I’ve also noticed the… in college I took one modern dance class just to keep enough credits to keep my scholarship, was actually a really cool experience. And we talked a lot about “pulling up,” which for a while, it took me a while to say, “What are we talking about?” And we had to read a whole article entitled “What does it mean to pull up?” which was actually very useful.

And so, they suggested imagining, like, a rope attached to, I think it might be called the suprasternal notch. Am I using these words right? Like, in the middle of your chest, like above your nipples, like right in the middle, if they were to cleave you in two, by maybe four or five inches above the nipple line, like you could feel a little notch. And I have found, sure enough, that when that area is, like, hunched just a little, versus it’s truly elevated as though a rope were pulling me upward, it’s like night and day in terms of the alertness or the with-it-ness. Michael, can you explain this much better than I’m doing now?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, I’d be happy to try, all right, for sure. Look, yes to that adjustment, and I’m even going to add another one. Imagine you had another string on your back. So, think of yourself almost like a marionette, a puppet, and you have one on both sides, and those strings are gently pulling you up so you almost can feel that full circumference of a circle around that widest part of your chest.

Now go even further, because in the chapter on posture in the book, I actually give a different image, which is imagine your head is a helium balloon and it’s gently floating up to the sky, and your spine is a long string on the end of the helium balloon, and you’re getting taller and taller and taller, not through muscle effort but through ease and release and grace. This is important because the way we learn posture is dead wrong. We hear all these conventional wisdom phrases like, “Sit up straight,” or “Pin your shoulders back,” or “Pull your shoulders back.”

Now, the problem with all of those things is they actually fit in a weightlifting class. Your spine is not straight, so you should not endeavor to sit up straight. Your shoulders should not be pulled back or cranked back because that’s using a bunch of muscles that are about building muscle strength rather than what posture should come from, which is balance and alignment.

Now the reason this feels so miraculous to you when you do it, I mean, first of all, there is a bit of just an endorphin rush from using our body in big physically expansive ways, but as it applies to speaking, if you’re not being as tall as you are, your diaphragm does not have as much room to drop down and push your guts out of the way so you can actually take a full, big, deep, relaxed breath. So, very often when I coach people on posture, the first thing that happens when they begin to be as tall as they actually are is they yawn.

And the reason it’s not because they’re tired, but the exact opposite. Because for the first time in that day, all of a sudden, their diaphragm has a space to actually drop down. What happens? Their lungs begin to inflate with air automatically, and they go into a yawn, and the whole body relaxes and releases a little bit. So that’s a tiny bit of an explanation of some of the things you might be feeling when you allow yourself to have that taller, released posture that your body is craving.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot with regard to the helium balloon floating situation and it’s not a matter of muscles, because I was just about to say, Michael, sometimes it feels like when I’m standing up really straight and my posture is great, I’m getting tired. Is there a certain set of strength training exercises I should be doing in order to improve? And it sounds like you’re saying, absolutely not. Just change the approach to your posture.

Michael Hoeppner
There is no strength training. Who has the best posture in the whole world? Once they’ve learned to sit up, put a baby on the ground, and watch them balance flawlessly. Anyone who’s had a young kid, call it zero to two years old, you plop them on the floor and you cannot believe how they can stay balanced like that the whole time. Here’s another image for it.

Remember holding a broom on the tip of your finger? You put the bottom of the broom there and you keep the thing perfectly aloft by moving your hand around, and the stick is completely straight and the head of the broom, which is much heavier, by the way, stays totally vertical because you’re working to keep it in balance. That’s how our posture works, from balance and ease and release. It does not work from muscle effort.

So, if you’re walking around the world, trying to pin your shoulders back, or essentially treat your day like a physical therapy session, you’re going to get exhausted. The wrong muscles will be recruited. They will get exhausted and fatigued. You will collapse, and then what happens is even worse. Then the voice in your head will kick in and begin to critique you, like, “Ugh, how do you have terrible posture?” “Ugh, why can’t you fix this?” “Ugh, why don’t you stand up straight?” “Ugh, I’m so tired,” “Ugh, it’s not worth trying to change it. Ahh…” then you collapse. So, instead, embrace release, breath, freedom, balance, and see what changes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, beautiful. So, are there any other key prompts you recommend in terms of getting our bodies in a comfortable groove that is excellent?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. Well, here’s another one. Unlock your hands and let them talk. I’m not suggesting that you, need more hand gestures. That’s not my point. My point is, I bet you make more hand gestures in real life than you realize. And then you go into high-stakes presentations or board meetings or client situations and, all of a sudden, you have a bunch of garbage in your head, like, “Don’t make distracting hand gestures,” and you completely restrain your gestures. But in real life, your hands have a story to tell, too, and they want to speak.

Now, the reason this is a problem is not because I actually don’t care all that much about what you’re doing with your hands in terms of gestures, but I do care a lot about how free you’re being with your overall communication instrument. And when I see people constrain their gestures, very often what they do, too, is constrain their breath, constrain their jaw, constrain their enunciation, constrain their vocal variety, and soon they speak like a tremendously diminished version of themselves. So, let your hands actually do what they want to do, which is help to emphasize and tell your story.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s lovely. Okay. Well, so we talked about body stuff a fair bit, which I think is warranted given your notion that communication is not about thinking and it’s a physical art. So, tell us, when it comes to the actual words that we’re using, you’ve got some perspectives in terms of conciseness, articulousness, enunciation. Can you work us through approaches to improve these domains?

Michael Hoeppner
So, let’s take conciseness first. If you’re trying to be briefer with your remarks, say better stuff in fewer words, in other words, as opposed to just telling yourself one more time, “Keep it brief,” or “Keep it simple,” or “Take a 30,000-foot view.” Instead, pick up a stack of LEGO blocks, or any other stackable objects, and go through your content, but say one thing at a time.

And at the end of each idea, in silence, place down a LEGO block. Pick up the second LEGO block and say the second sentence, or second idea, and at the end of that idea, in silence, kind of like where the period might go, at the end of the sentence, click the LEGO block into place on the previous. Pick up a third one. Say the third idea. At the end of that idea, in silence, again, kind of like where the period could go, click that one in place with the previous. And slowly but surely, thought by thought, sentence by sentence, create the tower of your communication.

Now the reason this can be so dazzlingly effective for people is that, in that moment when you’re doing the activity of clicking the LEGO in place, something miraculous happens. You’ve given yourself a moment to pause and to think, and maybe even to breathe. So, you’ve given your brain the two things it needs to actually think of smarter, briefer stuff, which is time and oxygen.

This is how great impromptu speakers have built the discipline to speak. They share just one smart idea at a time, and at the end of that smart idea, they consider, “Do I need to say something else, or am I done?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And in the process of actually stacking these LEGO blocks, it sounds like we may come to some realizations, “Oh, I don’t need that at all, or that at all. I guess it’s shorter than I originally planned. How grand.”

Michael Hoeppner
In fact, I can’t say who, but I’m working with a political candidate who is running for office. This particular candidate typically goes on way too long when answering questions. So, we’ve been working with these LEGO blocks relentlessly to get answers down to 30- or 45-second sound bites. It’s a very fast way to do so. Now, you can’t stack LEGOs in real life, but if you practice this, what happens is, very quickly, you build that muscle memory of tolerating thinking time between ideas, and very soon, you don’t need the LEGO blocks or the stackable objects at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, Michael, help us out with this muscle memory notion. I think some of us fear silence because of any number of dimensions, but when you mentioned a political context, I’m thinking about, oh, man, when you have multiple guests on a news show or a debate stage, it just feels like, “Oh, if there’s a split second of silence, someone’s going to grab it.” So, how do we think about these environments or even just the mental state and associations and emotions we have with the discomfort of letting there be that gap between our sentences and our thoughts?

Michael Hoeppner
It’s a big question. So, opposite of conciseness, I’m going to give you a thorough answer, okay? Because there’s a bit of a multi-step process I’ll offer here. The first is to recognize what the highest priority is. Most people are not on a Sunday morning political food fight talk show. Most people are living their lives, and the much bigger error they make is not having comfort with silence. So, recognize which the bigger one has in terms of a payoff for you and focus on that.

Next, this is a tool that’s so useful, The Wall Street Journal did a little piece on it. To build some comfort with silence, particularly when asking questions, you can do a simple thing, which is draw an invisible question mark with your finger at the ends of sentences, imperceptibly, where no one can see this, either just gently in a tiny microscopic way on the side of your leg, or if you’re remote, on a video call.

Why? We talk past the ends of questions all the time out of a sense of discomfort, and we don’t want to live through that silence. But if you actually shut up when you ask a question, guess what might happen? The person you’re asking the question might say something useful. I mean, think of that in a sales or a negotiation situation.

So, this idea of tolerating silence is not just crucial for being brief or being concise, it’s crucial even just in the reciprocal activity of having a conversation. Those are thoughts about building that muscle of tolerating the silence. But we can also get into how to avoid being interrupted if you want to. You want to go there?

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear it, yeah.

Michael Hoeppner
So, the first thing is, throw out that garbage advice of never have it be silent because you might get interrupted, because it might make it more likely you get interrupted. Why? Well, if someone hears that I’m talking to a person who never shuts up, no matter what’s going on, there’s never a single bit of silence, it actually encourages me, “You know what? I better get my voice in the conversation because I’m never going to if I don’t, so I’m just going to interrupt them midstream.” They might feel more inclined to interrupt you because they never see an opening.

And if you’re talking without ever giving yourself a moment to think about what the heck you’re saying, there’s a good chance you’re saying kind of dumb stuff. So, if you say dumb stuff, people are more inclined to interrupt you because they think, “No, I have to contradict what you’re saying.” So, contemplate that it might be making the possibility or pattern of you being interrupted worse.

If you’re afraid of being interrupted, instead, work on what’s called laddering, and, supposedly, Margaret Thatcher studied this to try to figure out how to make sure that her political adversaries would not interrupt her. And what it means is that you build, using all five Ps of vocal variety, not just pace, all five Ps of vocal variety, you build your way through a bit of speaking so that people recognize you’re not done yet, and I’ll do this in one sentence so you can see it.

Laddering would be a tool in which you use ever-accumulating vocal variety to let your listener know that you have not reached the end of your sentence. Now I’m doing it in a very exaggerated, absurd way, but you hear my point. You can show people you’re not done speaking yet with the adamance and forcefulness with your speech, and it doesn’t have to be by talking as fast as humanly possible.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, you said there’s five P’s. What are the five P’s?

Michael Hoeppner
Pace, pitch, pause, power, and placement.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, what do you mean by power and placement?

Michael Hoeppner
Power is volume, that’s loud and quiet. And placement means where the sound is placed in the body. So, as an example, if you have a friend with a really nasal voice, the placement of their voice is primarily in their nasal passages, and that’s where the sound is amplifying. Our voice amplifies throughout our body. So where is it placed?

Now the key thing with all of these five P’s is to, for the most part, use more. More variety. Because, typically, when we’re in a fraught communication situation, we contract and use less.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, different placement would probably imply a different pitch, but it’s possible. So many P words. It’s possible to have different pitches in the same placement.

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, you’re right about this. You could disentangle them from each other, but they’re incredibly hard to do so because they work together organically to create emphasis and drama and surprise within what we’re saying. If you don’t believe me, just imagine trying to get a dog interested in a stick that they’re allowed to chew, but not the cell phone that they have found, and imagine yourself comparing those two things for the dog.

You would use all five of your different dynamics of vocal variety to make one thing  seem really cool and exciting, and one seem really boring and silly and uninteresting. They work together, these five pieces.

Pete Mockaitis
I like the dog example. I think you’d also use a small child.

Michael Hoeppner
I have a 10-week-old golden retriever puppy right now, so dog is front of mind. That’s what’s going on. But, yes, it works for kids too, for sure. And, by the way, if you want a quick way to unlock this, try an exercise I call “silent storytelling.” And all that means is you have to speak, but exaggerate every single part of your speaking except for your voice. In fact, put yourself on mute and think of this like lip-syncing.

Mouth the words, move your hands and your gestures like crazy, allow your face to be terrifically expressive, but do it without any sound. It’s as though you’ve been muted on a TV. Do it for a minute or two, and then, all of a sudden, let your voice back into the equation, and you’re going to hear, all of a sudden, so much more expressivity come out of your voice because you’re moving your body in a much more dynamic way. It’s a very quick hack to unlock a lot more vocal variety for people who struggle with at times being more monotone.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, thank you. Well, we talked about conciseness, then we had a fun little detour through some five Ps. How about articulateness and enunciation?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, let’s look at both. Again, I’ll jump right to something very tangible and very practical you can do. There’s an exercise in my chapter on articulateness called finger walking. And in case you’re just listening, what I’m doing is walking my fingers forward, choosing each and every single word that comes out of my mouth.

Now, I invented this exercise originally with a balance beam, or a piece of masking tape stretched along a floor, and would have clients walk along this balance beam choosing every single footstep. But then, of course, I wanted to find a way to make it instant for people, even if they didn’t have room to move around, and you can do the same activity walking your fingers forward.

Do not get hung up on “Am I choosing word by word or syllable by syllable?” Instead, simply focus on walking your ideas across the table. And if you don’t know what to say next, pause your fingers, consider what you do, and then slowly take your time to commit to each word you’re sharing. Now, the reason this can be very powerful for people gets at the title of the book, “Don’t Say ‘Um’.”

The way to be more articulate is not to obsess about all the worthless words you’re saying, like, kind of, sort of, um, but rather to be laser focused on which words you’re trying to choose. So, the exercise of finger walking brings your attention to, “I’m going to actually take the time to choose my words.”

Pete Mockaitis
And the idea, as we do the finger walking, is that each finger-fall, footfall, step, if you will, corresponds to one word that I’m saying.

Michael Hoeppner
Well, listeners, I’m sure you could just hear that Pete was practicing just now. So, thank you for practicing, Pete. It’s not quite that rigid. If you do it for a few minutes, what you’re going to discover is that it doesn’t actually correlate to every single syllable, nor each and every word. What begins to happen is the activity helps you choose words or phrases, but it forces you to actually choose those ideas, as opposed to just opening your mouth and letting words fly out. So, practice it a little bit. You’ll develop your own rhythm, and it doesn’t have to be quite as rigid as you’re talking about.

A different way to think about this is, imagine you were a ballerina, or your hand was, and the ballerina is trying to tiptoe through a field of tulips and not disturb a single flower petal. That’s the kind of specificity I’m talking about with your fingers. And what happens, like magic, is you become that specific with your language, too, and it unlocks what I call linguistic precision.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so we’re sort of physically and visually representing, with our own bodies, a rhythm or groove between speaking and pausing.

Michael Hoeppner
Yes, thank you for that synthesis. Here’s the crucial thing. You won’t have to finger walk for the rest of your life. If you try it right now, by the way, it’s challenging. But it’s challenging on purpose. Because you may right now be very accustomed to just opening your mouth and letting a bunch of words fly out, fully 40% of which are not that useful. So, it forces you to really, almost obsessively, think about, “What the heck am I actually saying?” Well, you don’t have to do this too long, and, all of a sudden, you will have a much greater awareness of choosing words and ideas than just kind of free-form letting them fly out of your mouth all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And in the process, we’d naturally say fewer words and have more silences, is my experience right now, and it sounds like your assertion is that’s totally fine.

Michael Hoeppner
To a point. To a point. It’s going to feel a little bit too rigid at first. A little bit too much. What I’m suggesting is this is a radically different way to learn a behavior. Most people try to get rid of filler and useless words and be more precise and articulate by doing the advice of the title of my book. “Don’t say ‘um.’ Don’t say ‘like.’ Don’t say ‘kinda.’ Don’t say ‘sorta.’ Don’t talk too fast.” A whole bunch of thought suppression. It doesn’t work.

So, this is a different way to learn. You practice this a little bit, you bring a hyper-awareness to which words you’re actually choosing, and this uses what’s called embodied cognition. You’re learning with something besides just your brain. You’re learning with your body. You do this a little bit a few minutes each day, very quickly, you’re going to build some muscle memory with linguistic precision, and you won’t have to walk your fingers at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. So, this slow, halting, extra pause thing going on, as I’m being more linguistically precise, is almost a bit of an awkward intermediate stage that will, in time, with practice, disappear, and now I’m just artistically fluently precise at a good pace without those awkward silences and pauses.

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, absolutely. Now, in my experience, in 15 years of coaching this exercise, this exercise is like a magic bullet, transformative for about 60% of people. Forty percent, it is legitimately too complex. It’s too much of a cognitive load. It actually kind of throws them off. But I will say something about this book that no author anywhere has ever said. I don’t care if you read the book. I really don’t. I do care if you read one chapter.

So, find the area of communication that has historically been a bugaboo or a challenge for you and get better in that one area. This exercise may not unlock precision or articulateness for every single person, but there’s chapter after chapter, so, yes, practice it. Yes, it may be awkward at first, and even if it doesn’t work, there are other sort of arrows in the quiver, to use a metaphor.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And let’s hear about enunciation.

Michael Hoeppner
Enunciation is the only category in the book that I offer a tool for that I can take no credit, because the tool is something I learned from an amazing voice and speech teacher named Andrew Wade, but he learned it from someone, who learned it from someone, who learned it from someone. And the first historical example of this goes all the way back to ancient Greece and an orator named Demosthenes. So, the principle here is you practice speaking with an impediment. Yeah, go ahead, what?

Pete Mockaitis
Like, do I put pebbles in my mouth, Michael? Isn’t that a choking hazard?

Michael Hoeppner
Hey, look at you, knowing the historical reference.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks.

Michael Hoeppner
Yes, pebbles in the cheeks. Oh, shucks, exactly. No, it is not a choking hazard if you do it correctly. We’re not putting pebbles in the cheeks. You’re using one impediment that you put in between your teeth. A good thing is a slice of wine cork, that’s what I learned from Andrew Wade, but you have to hang on to the wine cork on the side to make sure you don’t inhale it. Easier is the end of a toothbrush, or even your pinky finger, neither of which are choking hazards, obviously.

And all you do, as I’m doing right now, is you put the impediment in between your teeth, and then the task is you have to make every single word totally clear even with the impediment in between your teeth. Now it looks silly. But you know what else looks silly? Basketball players dribbling with ski gloves on. Competitive swimmers swimming with extra baggy, two or three pairs of swim shorts. Sprinters running with a parachute, dragging behind them. Those people look silly, too.

It’s not silly. You’re doing the exact same thing. You’re building stronger muscles by making the physical activity more difficult. And by doing this, all of a sudden, all the muscles of enunciation, because they are muscles, get stronger because they have to fight past an impediment. Then you remove the impediment and, voila, your enunciation is better.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, Michael, this is so much good stuff. Tell me, anything else that’s really good and juicy and powerful you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Michael Hoeppner
I just want to make sure that people get this really clear sense, “Wow, there’s almost a tool for each of these things,” and there is. And the point is, you can treat yourself like the communication athlete that you are and use some of these innovative approaches to build some new muscles.

And with that, I want to just quickly mention the first two that we didn’t get to for posture, in the book, but also in real life, if you don’t have the book, make a paper crown, and imagine you’re walking around with a crown on your head and you’re a regal monarch. And for grounding your feet, in the book, I actually have a page where there’s two silhouettes of footprints. You can stand on the book and keep the pages adhered to the floor.

So, for each of these places, you might feel like you have challenges in your communication life, there are ways to approach it, and physical, innovative ways that can create change very quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
Now with the crown on your head, I’m thinking about a recent trip to Burger King with my kids and the Burger King crown, and those things stay on pretty good even when we’re bobbing it all over the place. So, is there some nuance to how I do the crown exercise?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. Well, the nuance there is there’s a bit of imagination that has to happen. Put it on and then challenge your kids, or whoever you’re with, walk around, allowing the crown to give you the regal bearing of some legendary monarch.

If you’re with kids, make it a game. See who can stand as tall and walk as elegantly and regally as a monarch. And you’re going to notice very quickly what that unlocks is the exact kind of posture we were talking about earlier. Not posture from muscle effort, but posture from ease, grace, height, and balance.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, thank you. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Michael Hoeppner
There’s two quotes, and I’m going to mangle them a little bit, but it’s more important people remember the idea than even the quote. One is Buckminster Fuller, “If you’re trying to change something, don’t try to fix the old model. Invent a new model that makes the old model obsolete.”

And the other quote is from Teddy Roosevelt, which is something like, “The best reward in life by far is doing work worth doing.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Michael Hoeppner
We use that system of five P’s I mentioned to look at politicians’ speeches, and it turns out, pretty straightforward, politicians who use vocal variety are evaluated by their audience as more authentic. Politicians who never use vocal variety are evaluated as inauthentic. And in politics, being labeled inauthentic is like the kiss of death these days.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. And a favorite book?

Michael Hoeppner
I’ll tell you what I’m reading currently that I like the best. I don’t know about favorite book ever, but currently it’s Moby Dick, and part of the reason is it has the most dazzling piece of brevity. The first sentence is three words long, and two of the three words are monosyllabic, “Call me Ishmael.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Michael Hoeppner
My favorite tool, in terms of software, is Otter it’s an app that does a bunch of transcription. And part of the reason I love it so much is it’s really good at notating what you’re saying, and I love to explore the dynamic of how humans speak versus how they write, and how our language is different in those two different sorts of processes. And so, very often, I like to actually write some stuff by first talking it out, and Otter lets me do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Michael, I want to get your hot take on this, there is a real difference between how we speak and how we write. And where I find it most pronounced in my life, hundreds of times over, is in bios because bios are written, and then I speak parts of them. And so, when there is a – what is it called? – a dependent clause, like, “A graduate of Harvard Business School, John does blah blah blah.”

And so, I feel like that was made for writing and not for speaking, so I feel silly speaking it, even though we understand when I’m doing a bio, I’m going to be reading something that’s been kind of provided and edited, but I feel off and I change it. So, it is. Yeah, what’s going on here?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. First of all, you’re doing your guests a real favor by changing it real time, because if you notice when you just said that, you even took on kind of a game show host voice.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Michael Hoeppner
You said, “A graduate of Harvard Business School.” So, it’s very difficult to read overwrought flowery language that really is made for writing, it’s very difficult to read that without any degree of mockery, because it sounds ridiculous when we say it out loud. So, you’re doing your guests a favor by translating that for them real-time, it sounds like, perhaps, sometimes even.

What is going on here is, of course, they’ve looked at this, is that our brains are even stimulated differently based on how we’re using language, and the activity of writing is fundamentally different than the activity of speaking. And yet we think they’re identical. I’ll give you a quick tool for this. This is, in fact, in the book. It’s called out loud drafting. If you want to get better at writing speeches, things that you’re going to say, come up with content that’s then eventually going to be spoken out loud and make it better, use this tool, out loud draft.

As opposed to picking up a keyboard and tap, tap, tapping away to start. Nope. Stand up, walk around, record yourself so you have the transcript, in case you say something genius, and then talk it out, real time, on the fly. First time might be bad. That’s okay. Do it again. Second time it’s still bad. Do it again. By the third time, it’s going to be better, and then you can go to the keyboard and write some stuff down. But only once you’ve done that, because then the writing is going to sound much more like how people talk anyway.

This is a tool I use in politics all the time so that speeches sound like direct first-person address as opposed to “Recited talking points that cover every single bit of policy that I need to in order to get elected.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I think that’s dead on. I guess you said politics, I’m also thinking about sales copy. I’ve heard a great phrase I liked, which was, “Join the conversation occurring inside your prospect’s head.” Yeah, that is what I find persuasive, at least when I’m thinking about buying something, is that. And if it does sound flowery, elevated, like a grand essay, I’m less persuaded in terms of thinking, “Oh, this is awesome, and I want it, and I need it.”

And then I find, like I was looking at a top strategy consulting firm’s website writing about their experience with different cases, and I was like, “The purpose of this website is to get a C-suite executive to hand over millions of dollars for a consulting project. I don’t think you’re doing it right.” And I feel a little bit arrogant saying that, like, “I mean, who am? I’m not in that business of selling super high-end corporate consulting services.”

But I don’t think even highfalutin executives speak to each other that way and read about your omnichannel solution enablement, and go, “Oh, yeah, that’s what we need. Call the guys at BCG ASAP because I’m fired up by what I’ve read here.”

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think this leveraging omni-channel stuff would just be so much more compelling in terms of, like, “Our clients have seen 30% increases in leads from their websites, apps, and direct mail.” I go, “Oh, those are three different channels and that’s a result I find very intriguing. Maybe I should talk to these consultants.”

Michael Hoeppner
That’s right, “Because I know what a website is, I know what an app is, I know what email is. Okay, great. Sounds brilliant.” Now this is a really important point for your audience, in particular, because this is not just about website copy. I see this all the time. Imagine this scenario. You’re in a board meeting. Someone’s going to present on something, okay? They’re sitting in a chair. They’re being introduced by someone else, or someone else finished up a presentation, and they’re going to hand the baton off to the person who’s going to go speak.

The person sitting in their chair is speaking like a human, chit-chatting with her neighbor, talking about something, diving into the discussion. They stand up. They walk to the front of the room. They even say something else casual and normal to the person who’s handing it off to them like, “Okay, thanks so much. Appreciate that.”

And then instantly they’re going, “We’re going to consider a leverage strategy, multi-part,” and they, all of a sudden, begin speaking like someone completely different as they’re reading off their slides, reading off this overwrought script that they’ve written, and, all of a sudden, the person we’ve seen two seconds before is replaced by a robot.

Communication is communication is communication. Your job is to say words that are meaningful to your audience and to focus on your audience in all these different situations. And it’s why I think, partly, that idea of public speaking is so confusing because whenever you’re speaking, it’s probably in public, unless it’s a private conversation with like a lover or a spouse or something like this.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good. And so then, I’m thinking about what’s the ideal time and place for flowery language?

Michael Hoeppner
First rule is you have to know your audience. So, I consult and coach in politics a lot. Most of the time we’re trying to find the simplest language there is and speak in monosyllables and even better use vivid language. That means nouns that are images and action verbs. But that’s because the audience and also the channel they’re going to receive this in, very likely they’re going to see a 30-second soundbite and that’s it. So that’s the first rule, know your audience.

But the second is, and now I’ll use a big word to emphasize a point, the platonic ideal, going back to Plato, the platonic ideal would be that you actually do both things. Now I mentioned Moby Dick earlier as the book that I’m reading. I mentioned that first sentence, but if the entire book was three- to five-word sentences, and all the words were monosyllabic, no one would still read Moby Dick.

Two sentences later, after that “Call me Ishmael” deadly simple sentence, Melville writes an 87 word-long sentence that features big words like “methodically” and “hypo” and these sorts of things. So, the ideal is that you can actually do both. Use soaring, big, complex rhetoric that verges on poetry, and also deadly simple blunt messaging.

And, as usual, one of the best at this ever was Martin Luther King Jr. and you can see this all through his speeches. This back and forth and back and forth between complexity and simplicity. The complexity gives your audience the credit that you actually think they’re smart, which you should. Audiences are smart. And on the other side, those simple phrases show them that you are a visionary leader who can identify a simple goal and deliver on that.

Now, that’s a lot to achieve in like a boardroom presentation or something, but people get bad coaching a lot of times too, of like, “Dumb it down. Keep it simple, stupid,” that kind of stuff. The best you can get to is that you actually do both, and those are the speeches that stand the test of time.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, well, first, the URL for the book is really simple, DontSayUm.com. If you want to reach out to me, LinkedIn is usually the best. That’s just Michael Chad Hoeppner at LinkedIn. And then the company that I lead is called GK Training, and again, that URL is very straightforward. GKTraining.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Michael, do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Michael Hoeppner
If you have the book, read one chapter, the chapter you need. If you don’t, there’s a free chapter at DontSayUm.com. I’m going to keep it free because people need this. It’s called Navigating Nerves. So, a challenge there is read that chapter and discover how actually your approach for navigating nerves might be totally counterproductive, and give yourself a new tool.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Michael, this is fun. Thank you. I wish you many meaningful communications.

Michael Hoeppner
Thank you so much, and the same to you.

Pete Mockaitis
Janice, welcome.

Janice Omadeke
Thank you. Thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk mentorship, and I’d love it if you could kick us off with a particularly fond memory you have of a mentor of yours.

Janice Omadeke
Oh, gosh. Honestly, I mean, I have quite a few. I don’t think I could be in the business of mentorship without having some great stories. So, the first one that comes to mind is my very first mentor in corporate America, Amy. She was a creative director at PwC, which was my first big dream job over a decade ago. Her combination of grace, poise, and also intense program management, and a clear understanding of the value she brought in her role and to the organization was something that I was so thirsty to model, and something that I hadn’t seen coming from defense contracting at that time. And I just learned so much from her.

Working with her really showed that you can be both very intentional with the way you interact with people and also very passionate about the returns you deliver to either the company you work for or the company you build yourself. So, thank you, Amy.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, she sounds lovely. Could you zoom into a particular moment that really touched you and left an impression?

Janice Omadeke
Sure. My first six months at PwC, so I had come from defense contracting, my entire career before then, very much the old boys club, as you can imagine. I’m from the D.C. metro area, and so, oftentimes, I never felt like I really belonged. I felt like I had to deeply alter my personality or practice a high level of self-abandonment in order to meet my career goals and support the organization. So, my first six months, she really helped me just return to myself.

I would ask her a lot of questions. So, there was one conversation where I just asked her point-blank, “Amy, what is it like being a woman partner at PwC? Like, what is that experience actually like? Because coming from defense contracting, I know where I want to go, but I am scared of reaching those heights if it’s just me as the only woman on a team or in that particular career level and there’s no one else.”

And she was very open about the fact that, one, that organization was very diverse, but how she has been able to quiet that noise, quiet the naysayers, and just focus on her job and what she needed to do. And she communicated that roadmap so clearly with such a concise vision that I was actually able to replicate and model that the four years that I was at the firm as well.

Pete Mockaitis
When you say quiet the noise and naysayers, was there an instance of some naysaying that she quieted, and how did she do so?

Janice Omadeke
I think it’s the internal naysaying that, especially when I was in my early 20s, I had just entered the workforce, like brand-new, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed at that time. And I am Congolese American, first-generation American, I did not come from a background where networking, mentorship, the career landscape that I was entering into, those weren’t common dinner-table conversations in my family. Like, it was just a big deal to get a full-time job with benefits and then proceed.

And so, I really had to learn through trial and error, through a lot of reading, through seeing other examples out in the market to figure out sort of what my professional identity was. But within that, especially in the setting that I had entered into, as I mentioned before, there were a lot of behaviors and traits that didn’t feel like they were in alignment to me, but I felt I had to adopt in order to survive.

And so, that self-abandonment I’m referencing previously is just the noise that you quiet, rather, is just the cultural norms from a very toxic environment that should have never been norms to begin with.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Can you lay it on us? Give us the down, the dirty, dirty here. What was going down that was disgusting? And how did that enter your head such that you were saying some things that weren’t so helpful?

Janice Omadeke
Well, you know, I’m grateful for the experiences that I had because it’s made me a better manager overall, because I never want to replicate those. But what I will say is that it feels wildly inappropriate to have VP-level leadership throwing an eagle paperweight at employees…

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, there it is. That’s real, whoa.

Janice Omadeke
…or cursing at them, berating them, you know, the verbal interactions, we’re at a point where, not me personally, but, like, my direct manager would sleep at his desk and not go home because of the culture of first one in, last one out. So, if our boss was in the office until 11:00 p.m., even if we didn’t have anything to do, it was sort of required that we stayed because that’s how our performance reviews were evaluated, or that’s how promotions or raises were evaluated.

And when you’re, in my case, an entry-level graphic designer with four roommates, and you’re really going after these lofty goals that I had of making six figures and paying off my student loans in a five-year time period, yeah, it was a very interesting dynamic, one that I learned a lot from and one that I am grateful that I experienced. I think it built some experiential scar tissue and definitely taught me the type of leader that I want to be and not be.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely, yeah. Wow. Well, I’m sorry you went through that and it’s good to hear that you were strengthened as opposed to torn down from those experiences. But it also sounded like there may have been an interlude in between being torn down and strengthened, in which you had some residual mental stuff going on.

Janice Omadeke
Yeah, I think everybody does.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, what were some of the things that you were telling yourself or the beliefs that you adopted temporarily that you were able to chuck off?

Janice Omadeke
I don’t think I ever let them fully absorb, but I don’t think that was an intentional decision on my end. I think there was a part of me that understood my worth, a part of me that understood everything I experienced in that timeframe was actually not okay, and so I just started putting the wheels in motion to explore other opportunities outside of that.

I think that was really the big lesson of, if you are undervalued, if you are being treated in a certain way, yes, you do have these lofty goals; yes, rent must be paid, yes; you have to survive in Washington DC, but it’s up to me to decide what that actually looks like, like, “What am I willing to forego in order to do those things?”

And once I knew sort of my internal bargaining range of what I was willing to accept and had those boundaries, I knew to prioritize myself and find employers and teams that shared those values, and I did. You know, later on in my career, pre-PwC, and I was still in defense contracting, I had great employers. I had great teams that I really enjoyed working with.

There are some people that I still communicate with over social media to this day, over a decade later, because of those relationships that were built inside those employers. But I think, for me, I’m very grateful to have had parents that established the need to prioritize boundaries in order to reach future goals.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s great that you were able to identify that, “This is not normal. This is not acceptable,” as opposed to, it can happen in early career experiences, like, “Oh, shoot, is this what work is? Uh-oh. Well, that’s a bummer. I guess this is what my life is now.” But you were free from that.

Janice Omadeke
Right. Or where we throw a paperweight at somebody, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
“I guess things get thrown in the workplace, or a helmet.”

Janice Omadeke
Exactly. No, I think it’s a matter of I just really understood my values, I understood my morals, and I knew what I wasn’t willing to give up and what parts of my soul I wasn’t willing to sell in order to reach that, especially, in a corporate setting, it just wasn’t necessary. And thinking about it now, I’m so glad I did and I’m thrilled. Like, it makes me so happy knowing that that type of culture is just broadly unacceptable.

In 2009, it was just a different case, that kind of was a bit of the norm, those sorts of cultures. But now that would never fly, and I’m thrilled that people no longer have to experience that, and that they can really focus on accomplishing their goals, getting acclimated to a supportive culture, that they can really find their footing inside an organization, make it their own, while also contributing to the success of their team, their employer, and the organization overall. It’s really great to see that.

Pete Mockaitis
Very much. It’s good to see some improvements. And, unfortunately, though, toxic workplaces and bullying does appear in spots, but hopefully less so and people are more aware that that’s not cool. So, tell me, when you said that Amy helped you quiet some of the internal naysaying, what did the naysaying sound like in your head? And what was the contribution Amy made to that?

Janice Omadeke
I’ve always believed in myself and my ability to advance in my career, but the negotiation piece was always a big one in terms of salary. You have your Salary.com, you have Glassdoor, you have all of this information, but sometimes, when early on, when employers would ask what your salary is, they’re not thinking, “Oh, okay. Well, this person is actually making $10,000 under market, so let’s give them $15,000, that way they’re above based on their skills and qualifications.”

If you tell them that you’re making a certain amount and then market, they give you maybe a 2% bump, that was just what it was at the time. And so, Amy taught me how to remove that scarcity mindset of pushing back and negotiating and advocating for yourself in a way that’s both logical, empathetic, and helps you reach that goal of finding middle ground between yourself and the other party in which you’re negotiating with.

And that’s something that I still use to this day, not necessarily on the salary front, but just how are both parties coming together to solve this issue, and how are you doing so in a way that everybody feels seen, heard, and respected at the end. And at that time, the naysayer in me was just saying, “Say yes to the salary, that way they don’t move on to the next graphic designer that is vying for this fully remote managerial job in 2014. Like, just say yes.” And she helped me in my next round of being promoted, and just the internal review process, actually, bump up my salary to where I need it to be and then some.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fantastic. And that is something that you can read it but it’s very different when you have a human being advocating for you, and you can sort of feel the support and see what’s up with the mindset. And this is just a freebie bonus nugget. So, Janice, what’s the proper way to answer the question when I say, “So, Janice, what’s your current salary?” If I’m asking you that as a potential employer, and you know the salary is below market, and too low, so it’s not relevant a question in a poor anchoring position, what do you say in that tricky position?

Janice Omadeke
I would say, “My salary is well within the range of the price point that you already set forth in the job description. Based on the market average of X and X, I am well within that bell curve and look forward to maintaining that in my next position.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, sure thing. Yeah, that sounds a lot better than, “None of your business. Back off! Shut up! Not relevant.”

Janice Omadeke
“You’re not supposed to ask me that anymore.” Yeah, no.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, “Is that even legal? What state are we in? Let me review the law?”

Janice Omadeke
Exactly, that’s a much more diplomatic way of saying that, and also shows that you’ve done your research, and you also have a bit of a backbone to stand up for yourself, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. All right, so mentorship. I appreciate the roundabout pathway, but so mentors make a huge difference in areas of negotiation, making you stand up for yourself, quieting the internal chatter. So, so much good stuff. I’d love it if you could share with us a particularly surprising or counterintuitive discovery you’ve made about mentorship over the course of your career and writing the book.

Janice Omadeke
So many people want a mentor but when you respond, saying, “A mentor in what?” or, “What would you like to work on with a mentor?” or, “What type of mentor do you feel would be most helpful to you?” crickets. I mean, that’s fair, right? Like, we talk a lot, and you see so much on, “Get a mentor. It helps,” because it does. You’re able to fast track your career five times faster as a mentee. As a mentor, you’re able to fast track six times faster, but there’s less information on what to actually work on with a mentor.

The fact that mentorship is not one size fits all. So, what type of mentor do you actually want to work with? What type of mentorship structure works for you? And who are the type of people that would be beneficial in this particular chapter of your career? And I think a lot of that is just left to assumptions versus actually educating people that are eager to find mentorship to understand that because they’ll be able to find their mentors much faster if they have that clarity.

Because, then, instead of just sort of a spray-and-pray approach, or just looking at everyone based on title or location or a high-level view of what that person could be, you’re now segmenting it the same way an entrepreneur would segment their customer market to know exactly where to spend their time, who to spend their time with, and how to communicate in a way that’s effective for the other party so that you’re both working together in that potential mentor-mentee dynamic.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Janice, I love that so much. A huge takeaway right there in terms of getting specific because I think when folks say, “I want to mentor,” if they haven’t really thought through the details then they might be embarrassed to say during the crickets, “Well, I guess what I wanted was a fairy godmother type figure who would just sprinkle career growth dust upon me and feel like a loving elder figure that can bestow wisdom and take me to places I want to go.”

As opposed to, “I don’t know how to navigate digital marketing with all of the different pathways and like what’s noise and what’s real, and all of the tools and opportunities and campaigns.” It’s like, “Okay.” Like, that’s something you can really work with, as opposed to just magical helper elder friend.

Janice Omadeke
Well, I think, too, yes, you do get some people that are saying, “I just want the magic wand fairy godparent that will take me from $30,000 annually to $600,000 annually in a month.” Like, that’s a great audacious goal. However, if we haven’t already started planting those seeds, that might be a steeper task than what’s in the realm of reality, right?

But with the right mentor, you can actually start breaking down those goals and saying, “Okay. Well, if the goal is that much, then how can you get there in a realistic timeframe?” whatever that timeframe is, right? And having mentors, plural, a series of mentors that could help you holistically look at your current career, look at your investments, let’s say, look at where else you could potentially build that wealth, if that was really the goal, to accomplish that.

And they might also have some come-to-Jesus conversations of, “That is possible, but if it’s not possible in a month, it might be possible in a couple of decades. It might be possible within the set timeframe, but the current one that you’re going after isn’t feasible. So, let’s take these pieces of the task list in order to accomplish that as the immediate next steps, and let’s get you to an exceptional level within those to continue moving forward.” Like, that’s a good mentor.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Understood. Thank you. And you mentioned a number, five to six times faster career growth with a mentor. Tell me, what is the source and the underlying data of this goodness?

Janice Omadeke
Yeah, I can send you the link to it, but, I mean, it’s everywhere, honestly. HBR has reported on that, Fast Company reported on that, Forbes has reported on that, other mentorship startups in the space, like MentorcliQ, I know has reported on that as well. It’s just a well-known statistic that those that are mentored are promoted five times faster, and those that do mentor have the likelihood of being promoted six times faster than those who are not mentored or mentoring.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fantastic. All right. So, we’ll totally link to the particular sources for that in the show notes for this episode. But tell me, in your own work, mentoring, being mentored, helping other people mentor and be mentored, has that been your experience, like, “Yeah, that sounds like it’s in the ballpark, five or six times the career growth rate with mentors or doing the mentoring” seems about right in your experience?

Janice Omadeke
Absolutely. I’m a living proof of that statistic actually, to have gone from a corporate graphic designer, to then expand within entrepreneurship, and to have climbed the summits that I’ve climbed with an entrepreneurship, like the 94th black woman to have raised over a million dollars for a seed-state startup, being Austin, Texas’ first black woman to have a venture-backed tech exit. I would not have accomplished that without the help of my mentors, 100%. It just fast-tracks your knowledge, it fast-tracks your self-understanding, your access to resources, the broadening of your network. Like, if you work the process, it actually can work.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic. All right. The size of the prize is large, so lay it on us, Janice, it sounds like the first step is to get specific associated with, “I want a mentor.” It’s like, “No, no, let’s get real clear.” What are the kinds of questions we should be asking and answering for ourself before we go on the hunt?

Janice Omadeke
Take some time to understand who you are and how you’re wired so that you’ll know if someone is a fit for you. The same way you would understand just meeting somebody out at a barbecue, let’s say, if they may be a potential fit for friendship or not. Based on your early conversations, you’ve done the work to know who’s a compatible fit for you in that space, and the same logic applies in mentorship.

So, look at how you operate within your career. Are you a morning person? Are you a night owl? What do you actually value at work? Are you the type of person that’s first one in, last one out? Or do you prefer working remote so that you can travel while also still working? Do you value family time? Is that really important? Or are you the type that wants to kind of work 24 hours a day? There’s no wrong answer, but being very clear in who you are in your professional identity so that you can find people that will complement it when needed, push back against it when needed, but ultimately will be a fit for you based on that is really important.

Understanding how you like to communicate, how you like to be communicated with, what type of feedback and feedback structure works best for you so that if you’re engaging with a potential mentor, and maybe their approach is more indirect that it’s preventing you from learning, you can circle back with that person and say, “Hey, actually, I prefer directness in my feedback communications. So, if you do have feedback, it drains my battery when I now have to spend time kind of sifting in between your words to figure out what you meant versus what you said. Is it possible for us to be more direct in our communications?”

If you want to have that conversation, great, but in this day and age when people are so busy, knowing that that’s your preference and finding people that will communicate with you in that way, or be willing to modify their communication to support that is great, and that’s what helps you end up expediting your mentor relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, that sounds delightful to find multiple mentors who can match us on all of these dimensions. I mean, is that possible? Is that realistic? Are we asking for too much? Can beggars be choosers if the mentor is bestowing generously their time and wisdom and expertise upon us? Can we get this level of fit?

Janice Omadeke
I think so because I don’t think it’s asking a lot to have a general understanding of how you and your mentor will communicate with each other. It is not mandating that every single mentor must communicate with you in this particular way. Just like you would with any other meaningful relationship, you understand where that other person is coming from. You understand their lived experience, you understand as much as they’re willing to share who they are, you’re presenting who you are, and then you both are working together to build a relationship that’s sustainable for both of you, and then figuring out what works within that.

So, another great example is if you are the type of person that likes to send one-off texts questions and appreciates that type of communication but your mentor prefers maybe meeting for coffee, a good workaround could be a virtual meeting, meeting once a month for an hour virtually. Ideally, if they are your mentor, you’ll do what it takes. But at the same time, I think finding some middle ground, if there is some sort of outstanding circumstance that prevents that from being realistic, it’s you’re well within your rights to figure out what works for both people.

I’ve seen relationships where the mentee just says yes to everything so that they have a mentor and they can say that they have a mentor without really thinking about how much they’re learning and how deep the relationship is actually being built. And when one party, as we’ve seen in most other relationship dynamics, if one party is consistently the accommodator and the other party is not aware of that, the relationship can only go but so far in comparison to actually just being vocal about additional preferences or wanting to work together.

So, the goal isn’t to strongarm in any direction, but really to build something that’s fruitful for both parties where you’re building that muscle memory of real communication and making sure that both parties feel as though they’re equally contributing to the growth and development of that relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. All right. So, if we’ve got great clarity on what we’re after, our goals, ourselves, and who would be a swell fit for us, where do I find such fine folks?

Janice Omadeke
Well, start finding their watering holes. Think about where you’re also interested in spending time. The great thing is that now, the virtual world is so vast. So, a good starting point, LinkedIn community groups are really great. They’re based on interest, industry, affinity groups, there are so many, so finding one that actually resonates with you is great. Social media is another great spot to find someone. I would not go based on followers. I would not go based on title. Actually, hear what these people are discussing. Join a virtual community there if you can.

Also, look at very niche and specific groups based on your interests. So, for example, when I was starting my first company, The Mentor Method, I was a graphic designer, I already understood the tech space, but I wanted to learn more about the intersection of tech and entrepreneurship. So, I found groups that I also felt very included and welcomed in. So, that included like DC Web Women, which consisted of a lot of entrepreneurial web development women, and it was great.

So, it hit a lot of those boxes where naturally I wouldn’t have felt comfortable going into that environment. But there was also that professional alignment, and because of the group and the culture that was established within that, there was a community that was very eager and excited to help advance and amplify other voices, especially people that were new to the group. There were a lot of opportunities to collaborate and there were a lot of opportunities to meet potential mentors, and I ended up meeting quite a few from those sorts of groups. But that’s also a very niche community based on the title, but I do find a lot of success within those.

So, yesterday I did a speaking engagement with an organization, and this woman is in politics, working on economic development and affordable housing. And so, depending on your thoughts on that topic and sort of who she’s reporting to, that could change things, but the advice was to start spending time within those spaces to find additional mentors that are within her vertical of mentor of marketing within that to then start expanding because that’s just such a niche focus.

And then by the end of the event, she had already found like three groups in Austin, Texas that she was going to join and try to find people within that niche environment. And I think getting very clear on the watering holes that make you feel good and make you feel comfortable that way, energetically, you’re giving off a sense of wanting to collaborate and being open to meeting new people while also knowing that just, in general, that could be a good target mentor audience is extremely helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. So, let’s say we’ve been hanging out in such places, we’ve found a couple folks we think seem fantastic, how do we proceed with approaching and asking?

Janice Omadeke
Do an internal gut check. Just confirm one more time. It can’t hurt. Like, why are you actually interested in getting mentorship from this person? Just again, what is it about them? What are you hoping to learn? Start having the informational coffees. I’m a slow burn person. Having at least three conversations with them before presenting the opportunity for mentorship because that gives you time to get to know them, get to see them in different environments, see if there’s actually a fit, if they’re interested in mentorship, if you communicate well together, all of the things that are really important in building a mentor relationship.

So, if all of that is checked off, then perhaps you make the ask. This is always a dicey part of the process because 61% of mentor-mentee relationships happen organically. But for 39% of the population, which typically ends up being the population that really needs that mentorship, and for whatever reason they just don’t have access to it, making the ask just provides, and having a structured program just provides that stability in those bounding boxes to really help them flourish.

So, if you’re going to ask someone to be your mentor, set the stage via email, or your next conversation, just saying, “Hey, I’d love to meet with you again to talk about the opportunity of having you as a mentor.” And then in that meeting, saying that you’ve really enjoyed getting to know them, obviously, based on their strengths in one, two, and three, and your goals of A, B, and C, they could be an impactful mentor to help you accomplish those goals. You would love to meet with them for an hour a month. You’ll set up every agenda. You want their feedback. This is what you’re hoping to learn from them. What are their thoughts?

This could easily be like a five-minute conversation just setting the stage and sort of creating that ask, hear what they have to say back, like, “Yeah, I’d be interested in learning more,” or, potentially, like, “Hey, I’m sorry, I don’t have the bandwidth,” which can happen, and that is totally okay. You want a mentor that has the bandwidth versus saying yes, and then falling off the grid for seven months. And so, that’s how I would structure it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. And so, I don’t know if you happen to know, since there’s a lot of feelings here in terms of, I don’t know, risk, rejection, vulnerability, all that stuff. Do you have a sense for roughly what proportion of the time folks say yes versus no?

Janice Omadeke
No, because it’s a case-by-case basis. Depending on the person you’re speaking with, they might have availability, a life situation happens and now they don’t, or maybe somebody wasn’t available, but then six months later they do have the bandwidth. It’s really a case-by-case basis. I don’t have a percentage of the number of people that say yes or no, but I will say, in those early conversations, a key component is kind of vetting their interest in mentorship.

Overall, I will say, though, that people generally want to help other people, even if it’s an informal mentorship of just grabbing coffee once and being able to learn from them in that capacity, people are typically open to that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, how about for funsies, if you think about your own batting average, what does it look like?

Janice Omadeke
Oh, wow. Well, because I followed the process that I laid out in the book since early in my career, I’d say my average is like 85%.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, I guess what I was driving at is for those who might hear a no and feel sad, disappointed, and have their own level of internal naysaying responses, we can know the mentorship queen herself doesn’t get them all, so this is to be expected, it’s normal.

Janice Omadeke
Exactly. You can’t get them all.

Pete Mockaitis
And just kind of move on.

Janice Omadeke
It’s just part of the process. I mean, it’s like any other meaningful relationship, right? Sometimes they last, they last the test of time. Other times, people have to part ways. It’s just part of the process. I mean, there are different circumstances within that 15% rate of mine for them not working out. But, overall, I will say that if you receive a “no,” if the relationship doesn’t pan out the way you had hoped, there is always a reason for that. Trust the timing, trust the process, and the right mentors will reveal themselves in time. There is no rush. You will figure it out and you will be fine.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s say you do get a “yes” and you’re off to the races, how do you have conversations that are productive? And how do you think about it being a two-way street?

Janice Omadeke
Mentorship is a two-way street. Like, I don’t even think about it at this point because that’s the foundational component of mentorship. You want to make sure that it’s a conversation where both parties are gaining something from it. Now, thankfully, on the mentor side, being able to share your lived experiences to help improve the quality of life, the quality of your mentee’s career, is deeply rewarding. I mean, it’s one of the best feelings. You’ve mentored before, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure, yeah.

Janice Omadeke
Yes, like you know that warm and fuzzy feeling when your mentee comes back and it’s like, “I took your advice and this happened,” or, you see them come up with these new concepts, and just watching their career flourish, it’s a lovely feeling. And I think there is that two-way street in that and just wanting to help the world be a better place through sharing your own bumps and scrapes and experiential scar tissue.

But, on the mentee side, you are the one driving the relationship. You’re setting the agendas, you’re requesting the feedback, you’re making sure that your mentor is available at certain times and just pushing that relationship forward. So, within that, the way that I like to structure it is sending the agenda maybe 48 hours ahead of time, if not sooner than that, broken down into, “Here’s the latest, like, here’s what I’ve been working on recently, just some great updates, some challenges. And this is what I’d love to discuss in our call.”

I like to touch base with my mentors in between my monthly meetings. So, let’s say they gave me advice on a proposal for a new initiative, and I just heard back and we’re moving to the next steps in that process. It takes 30 seconds to send a quick thank you email and say, “Thank you so much for your advice. Based on that, I was able to update slides two, three, and five per your feedback, and I think that really helped us in getting to the next steps. I’ll keep you posted on how this goes.”

“Oh, and by the way, I saw this article on gluten-free baking. I know that you were considering going gluten-free for a month, just given how you’ve been feeling a little more tired lately from our last conversation. So, here’s a quick article on that in case it’s helpful.” You’re delivering value. You’re being a person. You’re building a relationship. You’re showing that you heard them, and that you saw them as a real human being, and you’re providing your update in a non-transactional way. Like, bing, bing, bing, bing, like all of the stars, all of the boxes checked. It’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, when you said updated slides two, three, and five, that shows that we’re getting pretty darn specific. This is not just sort of like, “Oh, hey, so I got a presentation coming up, and hope it’s good,” but rather it’s like, “Hey, yo, I got some materials I’m showing you. I’ve got some specific question about a specific situation that is brewing in the near future.”

Janice Omadeke
Yes, do the legwork ahead of time. You’re going to have to. And, in the example of the presentation, let’s say, you’re going to have to build that presentation anyway, and your mentor is so busy, and you’re eager to work with them because of their expertise. Do the legwork ahead of time of at least putting together a shell of that presentation. It takes this.

You’re going to have to do it anyway, so why not do it a little bit earlier and have them react to it in the same way you’re hoping that potential customer, potential partner, whatever the situation is here, will react too, so that you’re getting that feedback in real time, and you’re just quickening your ability to get to a yes in that goal that you’re seeking to accomplish through the help of that mentor?

So, in the example of that presentation, maybe it’s a 10-slide pitch deck, just having quick bullets, like, “This is the title. This is what this slide will cover. Maybe there’s a graphic or something. Does that make sense? Is this the story arch that I should be using? Are there details that are missing? What are your thoughts here?” And just getting that so that you can actually respond to it is extremely helpful and very efficient, and your mentor will love that.

Like, give your mentor something that they can actually respond to versus staying in this space of sort of high-level theories. The more concrete you can get and the more you’re actually working on something together, the more fruitful those relationships will be. Also, the world is very small. It’s impossible to know everyone that your mentor might know.

So, let’s say you’re working on this, this actually happened to me, let’s say you’re working on this presentation or a pitch deck, right, and you’re going through it. That person might know a potential investor that would be a good fit. And if you stayed in that high-level sort of theoretical discussion of what your deck will be versus walking them through it, it would be a lot harder for them to start facilitating introductions.

It would be a lot harder for you to show that you are actually doing the legwork of building out your business or whatever it is, versus just showing them in that presentation. And I ended up getting introductions to multiple investors that ended up investing in my first company that way. So, just doing that legwork and giving them something to react to, and even outside of that, just an activity or something that you’re doing together that’s actually educational and helping you accomplish that goal tends to help build that sustainability in the relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, totally. And that five or six X really seems all the more resonant in terms of like, “Oh, yeah, so you’re acquiring skills superfast because you’re getting feedback that may not be possible to get from folks inside your own organization.” And what you said about the specifics really resonates. I was thinking, just yesterday, I was chatting with a buddy who had some ideas, like, “Hey, I’m thinking I might want to become…take my experience as a doctor and an expert witness to do some keynotes and workshops associated with how to reduce the odds of a doctor getting sued for medical malpractice.”

It’s like, “Oh, that’s cool.” And so, we were having all these back-and- forth ideas of, “I’ll try this and research this,” all of these things. And it was really rich and fun for me, I guess I was playing the mentor role there, as opposed to, it was like, “Hey, so do you have any tips for if I’m thinking about maybe getting into speaking?” I was like, “Well, I mean, make a video.” Like, I’m pretty limited in what I could say, “I mean, you should get a video, research the competition, maybe write a book.” It’s, like, I don’t have a lot. I don’t know.

Janice Omadeke
Exactly. Yes. One of my friends did the same thing. I would say we’re peer mentors to each other in different spaces, but having written Mentorship Unlocked, they’re actually writing a children’s book, a different space. But we met up for lunch to discuss being an author, and he brought everything to the table. I mean, he had an outline, he had little sketches, he had the whole story built out bullet by bullet. He had the morale of the story, just first and foremost, like, “This is what I want children from the ages of 4 to 6 to get from this 30-page book.”

I have kids within that range. Like, he understood the problem he was seeking to solve for both the child and the parent. He had market comms. Like, he had really thought through it. So, in our hour and a half coffee lunch conversation, we were able to really dig into the nuances of it, and thinking about what the next steps would actually be, versus sort of the theoretical, like, “Should I write a book? Should I not? Do I need to make an outline? Like, what’s in the outline?” Like, he had already done the research.

And even if he was, let’s say, moving in a direction that wasn’t as fruitful for his book, like, let’s say his outline maybe wasn’t ideal. It was, but in this case, let’s say it wasn’t, right? At least I have something to react to, versus some theory around what he might hypothetically include in his book outline to hypothetically talk to publishers. Instead, we could focus our time on, “Here are some potential publishers that you could talk to after you accomplish these three things, because they will not take a meeting with you without these,” and then he’s off to the races so much faster.

So, to your point, it’s really helpful to do that legwork because you’re going to have to do it anyway. So, even if you’re moving in the wrong direction, at least you know now to make a left turn instead of right, and you can edit accordingly.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And as I’m thinking about my own recent conversation, I felt fantastic and excited afterwards, and not at all like, I don’t know, taken advantage of, or like, he’s a taker. It was like, “I’m being drained.” It was like, “No, that was fun,” and that was, like, I feel like I just shared some gold with him, as opposed to if all I said was, “Hey, make a video, research a competition, maybe write a book,” I’d be like, “I mean, I think Google or ChatGPT could’ve told you the same thing in about four minutes, so I don’t know what we’re doing here,” as opposed to, oh, yeah, we got into some stuff, and it was a lot of fun and I’m excited to see what happens with it for him.

Janice Omadeke
Hundred percent. See, you’re a great mentor. Look at that.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks. Well, Janice, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Janice Omadeke
Be kind to yourself. You are doing your best, and the right mentors and the right community around you will see that and help you amplify your efforts.

Mentorship is not a paid opportunity. If someone is saying that they’ll mentor you if you pay them a monthly retainer, they’re not a mentor, maybe they’re a coach or a consultant, but do your diligence there, and don’t be afraid to ask for introductions. It takes, I mean, it actually takes a while. I think for me, when I wrote my first LinkedIn post, “Hey, do you know someone?” or like starting to ask for introductions to potential mentors, I would rewrite my emails at least a thousand times before sending.

But getting into the practice of asking for possible connections, showing the vulnerability of saying, “You know, I really don’t feel like I’m that strong in whatever the skill might be, but I feel like you might know someone who is. Does anyone come to mind?” Even if they don’t have someone then, that seed will always be planted. They will be thinking about that at their next networking event, or somebody will enter that individual sphere where they will be able to make that introduction to you. Just don’t give up. It is a process. It takes time.

But for me in my own career, I didn’t have impactful mentors until six years in for my corporate career, so it can take time. And then in entrepreneurship, it was a lot faster because I’d already built up that process but it still takes a while to find the right people, and it’s just trial and error. So, all of that to say you’re capable. You can do it. Don’t give up. And Pete and I both believe in you.

Pete Mockaitis
We do. We do. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Janice Omadeke
I think a good one here, I say this aloud, “I am no longer going to stand in my own way.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Janice Omadeke
Yeah, that’s been a recent one for me. Another one is, “Your mind is yours. Take it back. Your time is yours. Take it back. Your peace is yours. Take it back. Your freedom is yours. Take it back.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Janice Omadeke
Recently, I have been looking at the intersection of AI and HR and what’s going to happen in that market, and where AI is the most applicable within the HR space. A lot of people are thinking about it in terms of recruiting and how they’re able to filter resumes. I’m looking at it through the lens of diversity, equity, and inclusion to see how the technology is actually helping because we already had, you touched on a nerve, Pete, but you know we already had a lot of bias in the way in which people were even given opportunities to interview for jobs.

And depending on who’s building that technology, it’s just amplifying what the machine is being fed, which is by a human, which naturally has bias. So, I’ve been looking through studies. I’m not ready to cite one yet because I’m still doing my diligence on which ones are credible and not, so I don’t want to cite one and give them that shine yet. But I have been very excited and very intrigued, and spending a lot of time in researching who’s building the technology and looking at the differences in recruitment rates along different affinity groups, let’s say, and whether or not those stats are actually changing.

Pete Mockaitis
Intriguing.

Janice Omadeke
I know it’s a little different, but I enjoyed it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, no, different is good. You might just come up with some unique killer insights that are powerful, so that’s fun. Good luck. Enjoy. Hope it takes you some cool places.

Janice Omadeke
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book.

Janice Omadeke
The Power of Positive Thinking.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Janice Omadeke
Always a good one. Got that one early. I still refer back to it when I need a little bit of humbling and to just settle my nervous system. I think that’s always an oldie but a goodie. I think Masters of Scale, of course, I mean, just a classic. Lost and Founder is an exceptional book. I read that during, in 2018, during the early stages of my first company, The Mentor Method, and it’s beautiful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Janice Omadeke
My timer. The timer on my phone. I set it for meetings ahead of time. I set it to end meetings. I live by it. That’s when I know to get ready to go somewhere to meet my friends. I need my timer because I can get in productivity loops, especially with my work in AI and product development and everything else. And then with the book, Mentorship Unlocked, and my conversations with people, I can just get in a loop where I’m actively working on something, and that sort of reminds me to get up. I’ll set timers to get water. I’ll set timers to do a lap around my building or what-have-you, but without my timer I think I could easily lose track of time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Janice Omadeke
Getting 85 ounces of water in every single day.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Janice Omadeke
Yeah, let’s connect on LinkedIn. You can find me, Janice Omadeke, on LinkedIn. You can also find me on Instagram @janiceomadeke. And you can also visit my website, JaniceOmadeke.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Janice Omadeke
Think about your goals for the next 6 to 12 months. Actually, I want you to take a sheet of paper, write down your goals for the next 6 to 12 months. Next to that, write down what your naysayer or inner saboteur is telling you, why those aren’t accomplishable. Then next to that, remind yourself what skills and strengths you have that will help you get there, and then what types of mentors and resources you’ll need to actually accomplish them if you left that column on why you think you can do it right now blank.

Get clear on what you want to work on over the next 6 to 12 months, and then do everything you can to tell that saboteur and that naysayer that it is possible, and start building community and resources around that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Janice, this has been beautiful. I wish you many rich mentorship conversations.

Janice Omadeke
Thanks, Pete. Thank you for having me.