Podcasts

Pete Mockaitis
Jeremy, welcome back!

Jeremy Pollack
Hey, Pete, how are you?

Pete Mockaitis
I’m doing well. Doing well. Excited to talk some neuroscience here.

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, yeah, let’s get into it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell me, I mean, I am continuously fascinated by the surprises in store as we go exploring what’s in the human body and brain and mind stuff. So can you tell us, as you were putting together Wired for Peace, anything you found super duper surprising and interesting?

Jeremy Pollack
I’m not even sure if it was super surprising only because I kind of figured it, but just the sort of neurobiology behind cooperation and conflict really stands out to me as, “Hey, we are, indeed, kind of wired for peace.”

I just started thinking about the way humans interact a little bit differently. I had this feeling that, like, “Well, you know, we seem to be in conflict so much of the time. We seem to be angry with each other. There’s a lot of fighting and war and this kind of thing and a lot of intergroup conflict.”

But the truth of it is, if you follow the story of neurobiology, you can kind of see what makes us feel good, the sort of neurochemicals and hormones that are released, really make us feel good are a result of when we’re cooperating and collaborating.

And the things that are released in us and the way that we feel when we are in conflict and when we’re in stressful conflict, they really don’t make us feel good. And they’re only really meant to be there sometimes when we’re in survival mode. And then we’re supposed to go back to baseline, back to cooperation or peace.

And so when we find ourselves constantly stressed or constantly in conflict, or what I would call chronic conflict, we’re not really supposed to be there a lot of the time. And I think our neurobiology tells us this interesting story that, “Hey, we are meant to be at peace with each other. That’s where we’re meant to be.”

We just happen to sometimes get into defense and get into these cycles of conflict that, you know, if we just cleared away those cobwebs, we could kind of get back to our natural peaceful states, I think.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s beautiful, in a way, in terms of the humanity and our design and what’s just right and natural for us. So when you mentioned these cobwebs, tell us what are some of the top things that get all messed up in our brains?

Jeremy Pollack
I would say, on a very basic level, we’re kind of wired for survival. Our brains are looking for ways to both defend against threats and also to find opportunities. A lot of that has to do with being in cooperation, especially with our group members.

But, of course, we do have our neural architecture that seeks out threats and it pays attention to those threats. And part of that is paying attention to narrative and reputation, what’s happening in our groups, in our tribes.

Our brains are sort of evolved or set up to track what’s happening in a group of 100, 150 people. But now we’re operating in this sphere where we’re now paying attention to things that are happening 3,000 miles away to people we don’t even know, or groups that we maybe slightly identify with or don’t identify with, but our brains are still reacting in the same ways.

So, unfortunately, when we start paying attention to all kinds of things that are perceived as threats, a lot of interesting things happen in our psychology and in our neurobiology. We start becoming hypervigilant. We start noticing threats in places that there may not be any, or we may exacerbate threats worse than they are. Our stress response becomes a little bit more chronic, like chronic stress, and that affects our bodies and minds in all kinds of negative ways.

So a lot of this stuff happens if we’re paying attention to and focused on conflict a lot of the times. And this is something where people are doom-scrolling or rage-bait or click-bait and that kind of stuff. Or we’re just paying attention to all these things that enrage us or anger us or make us afraid. And it really messes with our brains.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And you’ve gone so far as to say that conflict may not be so much a communication problem, but a nervous system problem. Can you expand on that?

Jeremy Pollack
Essentially, all conflict that causes a stress response, which I would call escalated conflict, you know, like baseline conflicts, regular conflicts, or just, you know, there’s some challenge in front of me or some challenge in front of us and we have to solve it.

But what we talk about when we say conflict, usually, what we’re talking about is escalated conflict, which is conflict, interpersonal or intergroup conflict, that causes a stress response in the human body. And so these are, essentially, nervous system issues.

Our brains are responding to a threat. It’s usually saying, “Hey, there’s a deep threat here, a meaningful threat, and I need to respond in a way that activates my physiology.” And that’s sympathetic up-regulation or sympathetic arousal, which is a particular area of our nervous system, which is meant for fight or flight.

And that’s what’s happening a lot of times when we’re in interpersonal conflict. We are seeing this as a threat. Our brains don’t really know the difference between a physical threat and a non-physical threat. A lot of the same brain regions are active, and because of that, we’re responding in ways that probably aren’t very effective for the conflict to resolve it, and also aren’t very manageable for our own physiologies.

Pete Mockaitis
Bummer! Well, that sounds like a whole lot of no-fun, Jeremy.

Jeremy Pollack
It’s not fun. It’s not fun to be in conflict with someone when we’re all stressed out about it, you know? So how do we get out of this kind of thing? How do we start looking at conflict differently or even responding to conflict differently?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, if this is a neurological situation with regard to our nervous system, I suppose the fun flipside of that is that would suggest we may have a whole host of potential solutions, tools, interventions to utilize here.

So we’re talking to someone, we’re in an escalated conflict, we’re feeling stressed and, boy, I could even see it on my Garmin watch in terms of someone says something, “Ooh, I don’t like that. And we’re getting into something here.” I could just look at that heart rate, go up, up, up, up.

And then it’s just like, “Oh, you know, before I was chilling at a nice little 67. Well, now we’re at an 84. Huh? That was quick.”

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, for sure. I mean, listen, what we’re talking about, essentially, is self-regulation, and there’s a number of techniques or strategies you can use for self-regulation. Before you even self-regulate, though, there’s a few important elements.

Number one, you have to be motivated to interrupt a pattern. So if you’re noticing that you have conflict that causes you to be stressed out with a person, with a group, on a chat board, whatever, you’ve got to first have a motivation that says, “You know what? I don’t think this is healthy for me, I want to change this. I want to change the dynamic. I want to either solve it or manage it or not interact with this, but now I want to change it.” That’s number one.

Number two is you have to be aware of the stress response. You have to feel like, “Oh, wow, I’m noticing my heart rate go up. I’m noticing I’m feeling a little tense, a little shaky, and this doesn’t feel good.” And so those two things together, awareness and motivation, are really important to start. And then you can implement some actual techniques and say like, “I’m going to change this dynamic.”

One of the important things to do when you’re trying to change a stress response, meaning there’s a stimulus and then you have a stress response to that stimulus, whether it’s a person or a group or an idea, is to do exposure with self-regulation, exposing yourself to the stimulus.

Don’t run away from it, but engage with it. And try to respond in a new way so that you give your nervous system a new experience, which then you can build new predictions, new memories around and you can operate in a different way.

So, for instance, if I’m interacting with a person who usually stresses me out, I’m going to do my best to take some techniques like I’m going to do long-exhale breathing when I’m interacting with them. And I’m going to start to, really consciously, lower my shoulders and relax my face and just notice how my body feels and the tension in my body, and just notice if I can relax my body and breathe long exhales.

So long-exhale breathing actually engages the vagus nerve, which engages the sympathetic nervous system and calms us down a little bit. So just a couple of physiological techniques. I can also take psychological techniques, too. I think those are both important because it’s a physiological and psychological state.

Something like I’m going to tell myself messages of safety. In my own head, I’m going to say, “This is okay. I can handle this. I’m safe. I’m okay. I’m going to be okay. I’m in control here.” Whatever the messages that I need to hear, I’m going to tell myself that to remind myself, remind my brain, “Hey, I’m safe. It’s okay to slow down and relax.”

So different types of self-regulation techniques while exposed to the stimulus is going to give you a new experience of that stimulus.

Pete Mockaitis
So just thinking the thought that I’m safe does something to us, huh?

Jeremy Pollack
It can. It depends on exactly what sort of, I would call, a psychological need or needs are being triggered by that particular conflict. But, in general, something like, “I’m safe. I’m okay. I can handle this.” Something like that, whatever the message is that feels like it calms you down with that particular stimulus response relationship, that’s important to kind of keep in mind as, like, a mantra.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Jeremy, I’ll share something in terms of my experience, in terms of psychological needs and threats. I found, for myself, I’m just a gosh-darn independent fella, you know, starting my own businesses and doing my things.

And yet, of course, in the real world, which involve taxes and accountants and lawyers and clients and other people of collaboration, you know, it’s a reality that I can’t always just do things my way. And when I feel that my autonomy or sovereignty is being threatened, trampled upon, I sure don’t like it.

So that is not a unique experience. I feel like I might have it in a greater intensity just because I’m so into it. Part of why I left consulting was to eat lunch whenever I wanted to. And that’s genuinely true, not waiting around at the conference room for someone to finish up their email or their slide or their whatever. It’s like, “No, right now. Right now is when I care to eat lunch.”

And, by golly, now I do, Jeremy, eat lunch when I darn well please. And it’s wonderful. So that’s a particular flavor of a need that I am perceiving a threat to. And, of course, I know, logically, I’m not about to be imprisoned, you know? And yet, I’m experiencing a threat. How do I respond perhaps psychologically to that need being threatened?

Jeremy Pollack
So just to be clear, you’re saying when you have a responsibility that, like, the IRS sends you something, you don’t want to do it, but you know that, because it feels like, “I’m being controlled because they’re telling me to do something that I have to do.” Is that what you’re talking about?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, or any number of things or someone requests that I follow a super duper specific process to submit an invoice.

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, annoying.

Pete Mockaitis
Or, there’s, “Hey, we have a new system, and here’s the protocol. And then you’ll need to set up a login on this new platform.” It’s just like, “Aargh,” you know?

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, tedious.

Pete Mockaitis
So, in anything where it’s like, okay, there’s a now your choice and how you care to roll with this thing is usurped in terms of like the choice of timing, or the choice of approach, or the choice of teammate or tool, whatever, and I am feeling a form of threat.

And I think anyone, well, maybe before we go deep on this, perhaps, could you give us the menu of psychological needs in terms of, like, safety is one?

Jeremy Pollack
Safety is one, yep.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m thinking autonomy is hitting home for me. What are some others that we can perceive a threat to?

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, so I use the acronym SAPIEN, which is six basic psychological needs. So safety or security is number one. Affiliation or connection or belonging is another one. Positive self-concept, which is also identity or status or esteem, all wrapped into that.

Also independence, which is autonomy, choice, agency, that sort of thing. The fifth is enabling or engaging activities, so things that stimulate you and feel like they’re keeping your attention in a positive way. And then the last is noble pursuits, which is meaning or purpose.

And so you’re talking about your independence need, that agency need getting hit. And I would say like, you could dive into it a little bit. On one hand, is there something about not being able to handle it, it’s like overwhelming, “I have too much to do. I can’t do all this tedious stuff”?

Or, can we give you some agency? Can we, instead of you feeling controlled by it, can we put you in the driver’s seat and you say, “I’m choosing to do this?” Because it gets you something. It’s important for your business or for you.

And you putting yourself into power, and instead of feeling like, “Oh, I got to do this,” it’s, “I’m choosing this. I’m choosing this route, I’m choosing this business. I’m choosing this life.” So you are consciously putting yourself into empower.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, I like that a lot. And for me, I don’t know, maybe if I really sat with it and really did some deep introspection, I could come up with something. But at the knee-jerk physiological level, it just feels like I really don’t like that.

Like, if someone, like if I were to walk around with my socks and step into a little puddle of water, like, “Ugh, well, now my socks and feet are all wet, and I just don’t like that.” Like, physiologically, that’s the vibe. And so maybe under the surface, under the hood, that’s what’s beneath it. But that’s how I experience it as, “Ugh!”

Jeremy Pollack
Totally.

Pete Mockaitis
“This thing has appeared and I just really don’t like it.”

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, and I think that it’s interesting because you can also, I would say that in this kind of case, knowing that, doing a little self analysis, you could probably come up with some strategies to feel less controlled by it.

So one of the things that I think pings people or sort of brings up a threat to control is when something comes at them anytime. So, for instance, if you’re like, “Oh, that thing I got to do, which I really don’t want to do, and it’s like tedious or whatever, it’s not slotted into a very certain area of my week, then it’s like just on the books or on the to-do list and maybe to do tomorrow or the next day or whatever.”

Then it might feel like, “Oh, well, it’s kind of hanging over me on some level. It’s like controlling.” But if you were to slot it and say, “You know, I do the tedious stuff I don’t like to do on Thursdays at, you know, 1:00 p.m. for two hours and that’s it.”

Or, “I hire some person to do those things with me, or for me, and I oversee it for two hours on this, you know.” So you, really, create a very specific time so that you are in control of when you have to do it rather than feeling controlled by, like, “Oh, it’s just on my thing and I’ve got to do it at some point.” So you take more control over the process itself.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, ooh, Jeremy, I’m digging this a lot. And if we could, could you give us a little bit of that recipe book here in terms of, in the case of independence, you gave us a little bit of an internal mantra, “I’m choosing this” as well as a practical systems level strategy?

It’s like, “Oh, I do the things I hate doing at a particular time and place. All right, that’s where they live. Cool. That’s covered.” Likewise, with safety, you gave us a nice little mantra, “I’m safe. I’m safe. I got this. We’re going to be okay.”

Jeremy Pollack
“I can handle this.”

Pete Mockaitis
Can you, likewise, share with us the internal mantra and the systems-level approach to help us be in a groove of peace more often as we’re just navigating all the people-y things in our world?

Jeremy Pollack
So something that’s interesting, when I work with clients on a long-term basis, what I notice and what I’ve noticed over the years of working with hundreds of different clients in a coaching capacity, people come out of childhood with kind of one of two major stories, sometimes both major stories.

One is, “I’m not good enough,” and the other one is, “I’m too much,” and for whatever reason, from their either just kind of interacting with their parents or their earlier social groups. And so what these two stories tell us, “I’m not good enough,” or, “I’m too much,” it tells us something about myself, “I am not okay the way I am.”

And there’s a deep belief in a lot of people that says, “I’m not okay the way I am. I either have to perform and do more, or I have to perform and do less, like tamper myself down so that I’m not so much for people.” But either way, it’s, “I’m not okay as I am.”

And so that’s one of the major things that I’ve found, one of the major fears even that I’ve found in people is this fear of being ashamed in some way, not being able to be themselves because there’s something shameful about them.

And this is one of the big things that I would work on with people is that pings a lot of stress, especially in conflict, interpersonal relationships, where they feel like they have to perform to be more, or they have to perform to be less because they’re not okay the way they are.

And so helping people figure out how to be just okay with who they are and really loving who they are and accepting who they are really starts to be transformative for people. And that happens in a variety of different ways.

I tend to like do kind of inner child work or internal family systems work where we’re helping people father or mother themselves in a way, and give them things that their real parents never gave them, give them messages of safety and love and acceptance, and do that repetitively over and over for a long time so they start to change the core internal stories.

When you start to feel really okay in yourself, and at peace with yourself, and gentle and loving with yourself, it becomes much more difficult to get into interpersonal conflicts because you’re at a state of internal peace.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that really rings true because you could imagine that a person who had done this work and gotten to a great spot of interior piece with himself, even if someone were to give them a flagrant insult, like, “Jeremy, you’re an idiot and your work is so off base, it’s harming people,” I mean, I imagine your response is not like, “Oh, dear, oh no, I’m so bad,” but rather like, “Whoa! There’s a surprising piece of feedback. Like, tell me more about that. What do you mean? How? Why?”

Jeremy Pollack
Exactly, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, it’s just like, “Huh? I’m surprised. I’m curious. It’s kind of weird, but I’m not, like, feeling, you know, cut to the core.”

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, exactly. If hearing feedback is going to risk my very self-concept or my very self-acceptance or love or something like that, then I’m going to be very afraid of getting feedback and I might have a very serious stress response in response to feedback.

But if I have an internal core story that feels accepted and loved and lovable, then, yeah, hearing feedback is going to be just like that, maybe from a curious mindset, not a stress response. If you’re in a stress response, you really can’t be curious because you go into self-preservation mode, it shuts down curiosity.

But if I could stay curious in feedback, then I could say, “Wow, that’s interesting. I never heard that before. Or, can you give me an example? And can you show me exactly how? And maybe there’s something I can alter or modify.”

So I think, absolutely, a state of internal peace is really important. Peace starts with each of us. If we are in a state of internal conflict, it’s much more likely we get into interpersonal conflict.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s a jumbo principle right there. Thank you, Jeremy. And you’ve laid out a number of powerful principles in your book. Can you share some more of those with us here?

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, I think one of the important kind of frameworks is what I call the five Cs of conflict resolution. And all of these are affected by escalated states. So if we are in a stress response, all of these capacities are suppressed. And so it’s really important that we deescalate first or self-regulate first so that we can engage some of our more conflict-solving capacities.

These would be to stay curious, which we already mentioned. Also, really important to be able to communicate well. And communication happens on all kinds of levels, not just what we say, but how we say it in our tone, expression, body language, etc.

Also, care is a really important piece for conflict resolution. People have to know that we care about their needs or their concerns or their goals so that we can get to a place of resolution. The fourth C is what I call collaboration. Collaboration basically means, “I need to bring people into the solution, collaborate with them, get their buy-in. I can’t impose solutions on people if I want them to last and stick.”

And the fifth one is being creative. Creativity is key for resolving complex conflicts, things that we haven’t looked at before, getting to underlying needs, looking outside of our conceptual structures around conflicts. How do we solve this in a new way that we haven’t thought about before?

So these are five really important capacities that are all inhibited by a stress response, which is why sort of self-regulation is important as a priority.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so we’ve talked about the slow breathing, the “I’m safe.” You also have, specifically, a 60-second brain hack to regain composure. What’s this one?

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, so I call this the 60-second or the quick brain hack. So, basically, we’re taking five different very core techniques around self-regulation and pairing them with a cue that makes them very easy to remember.

We already talked about three of them. So long exhale breathing, meaning when I breathe in, I take a slow exhale. As I’m doing that, I relax the face and the shoulders. That’s number two. As I’m doing that, I’m giving myself messages of safety. It could be a very simple mantra like, “I’m safe. I’m okay. I can handle this,” whatever that is.

The next two are behavioral. So I want to make sure that both my vocal tone stays in range, meaning I don’t want to go too loud. People tend to get loud when they get stress response, so I want to keep it low if I can.

And I also want to slow down my speech to a normal level. I don’t want to go too slow where it feels condescending, but I want to make sure that I’m not speeding up. People tend to speed up when they’re in a stress response.

So if I take a physiological, meaning relaxing my body and breathing, I take a psychological, giving myself measures of safety, and I take a behavioral, slowing down my speech, lowering my tone, all of these elements start to tell my brain, “Hey, it’s okay to turn off the stress response. We’re not in danger right now.”

These five are sometimes hard to remember in the moment. So what I like to do is I like to pair them with a cue and practice that so that when I engage the cue, all five come online. One thing that I do, for instance, is I would take my thumb and my middle finger on both sides, and I press them together. And I do that in a way no one really sees it happening, just me knowing it.

But I do that and I practice all five together. And I do that regularly so that I get this stimulus response relationship. And the only thing now that’s up to me is the next time I feel stress in interpersonal conflict, I have to engage the cue. Because the cue will automatically tell my brain what to do if I repeat it enough times. So that’s my little hack.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah, this reminds me of some Tony Robbins stuff, anchoring some things and stimulus response. Nifty. So that’s quite handy, too, and, boy, what a nice feeling of safety, security, “I can handle this” to carry with you wherever you go. It’s like, “Well, I’ve got the magic button. Thumb to middle finger. Boom!” That’s super.

Tell me, are there any finer points with regard to relaxing the face or the shoulders? I mean, I think I know what that means, but are there some particulars or nuance to doing that well?

Jeremy Pollack
Well, I think most of us, a lot of times, if we notice where our shoulders and face are at, we can probably relax them. It’s just a normal thing to kind of tense them up. So I would just do some practice around this. And you can also focus on other areas of your body that you notice are tense.

Some people, their stomachs get tense, their hips get tense, their chest gets tense. Notice what else gets tense in you, maybe your jaw or something, and just start to relax those areas. If we can sort of lower our baseline sympathetic nervous system activity on a regular basis so that we’re more regulated more regularly, I think that’s very helpful for just a setup for keeping the peace in your life.

But I would just notice, like, “Where do you hold tension? Can you relax that area? Can you breathe into the area?” Let the tension go and do that regularly and start to practice that so you know where to go to when you start feeling a stress response.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, Jeremy, we’ve addressed our internal needs. We’ve gotten to a nice peaceful groove. Tell us, in the actual conflict or conversation itself, are there some key dos and don’ts within that moment?

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, so now we’re ready to, hopefully, communicate. We’ve regulated, we’re ready to communicate and, actually, maybe solve something.

One of the things when we’re telling someone that something bothers us about what they did or what they said or something like that, we want to make sure that we’re not framing this in a way where they feel personally attacked or their character is attacked.

Again, we don’t want them to feel like their needs for affiliation or safety or something. We don’t want them to feel like we’re abandoning them or rejecting them or humiliating them or something like that. So what’s really important is to, when you’re communicating about something that’s bothering you, is to be really, really clear about the behavior, and to be really, really clear about the interpretation, your interpretation of that behavior and to separate those two things out.

So when I’m talking to someone, I’m not going to say, “Hey, yesterday, you were really rude to me.” Instead, I’m going to say, “Hey, yesterday, when you started talking before I was finished talking, the thing that I felt, or the way that I interpreted that, or the story that I told myself was that you weren’t really interested in what I had to say.”

“And to me, that, I felt a little sad, I felt a little dismissed, a little disrespected. I’m not saying that you meant to do that. I’m just saying that’s how it landed with me. Could you tell me what was going on for you? What was your experience?”

So my goal here is behavior separate, don’t put my interpretation on them, and then open up the conversation and ask them what they were experiencing. Did they mean that? Did they intend that? If not, what was going on for them so that I can understand where they were at?

And then, that way, we’re both communicating in a way where it tells each other, “Hey, when you do something, or when I hear something, or when I experience something, here’s how it’s landing with me. Here’s how it’s landing with you. We’re understanding each other better. Let’s come up with maybe a better way to go forward.”

“The next time we’re talking, do you mind just letting me finish my thoughts? And if I notice you doing it again, is it okay for me to kind of just say, ‘Hey, you’re doing it again?’ Or, what would be the right way to do that so that you don’t, I don’t want to feel like I’m jumping all over you or you’re walking on eggshell?”

“So tell me how I should go about that the next time this happens, you know, so we’re going to have some solutions, hopefully, that we both buy into and we can talk about.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, Jeremy, I dig that a lot, and it kind of reminds me of Dr. Becky when she’s using her scripts. It’s like, “Oh, man, the way you say that just sounds so right. I have a hard time imagining anyone taking that in a negative way.” And yet, sometimes, you know, maybe we’re not the masters of executing that just right, or maybe we do.

And yet, our counterpart, our interlocutor’s like, “Yeah, well, Jeremy, things move pretty fast around here. And so it’s just going to happen. You’re going to have to deal with it.” What do you think is the ideal response internally and externally to when we get more or less a dismissal, like, “You know what? I’m going to do me. So, you know, you’re just going to have to accept that”?

Jeremy Pollack
Well, there’s different ways to go about this. So, number one, I would ask someone, what’s the relationship worth? Are you motivated to change the dynamic and stay in the relationship? Because if someone say, “Well, I don’t want to. If he’s not going to change and not work on it, I’m not going to deal with that.”

Well, okay, so maybe, if that’s possible to separate peacefully from that person, because they’re not willing to do anything different and it’s causing a stress response in you, that’s up to you. Like, what would that take?

Now, if you do want to stay in the relationship or you feel like you have no choice, like, “I work with a guy and I don’t want to quit my job,” or, “It’s a co-parent, it’s my ex I’m co-parenting with, and I have no choice but to communicate with him,” and they’re not willing to do anything, then, A, can you learn to self-regulate when exposed to that stimulus, that person? Can you learn to do that?

If not, B, and/or B, can you put some other boundaries around that relationship that feels like they are empowering you and you’re self-protecting on some level? So it’s important to keep some boundaries there. And that may be like, “Well, then I’m only going to interact with them once a week or around these particular subjects or whatever that is.”

The third thing, also, is to stop expecting something from someone who has told you they’re not going to give it to you. That expectation is going to feel disappointing. You’re going to feel resentful, etc. Stop expecting it.

Just say, “Hey, you had the conversation, they’re not willing to do anything, they’ve dismissed it, that’s who they are, and that’s what this is, and I’m going to accept them for who they are and do what I need to do to set boundaries for myself.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. And so having the expectation continually unrealized, it doesn’t do us any favors. It’s not like they’ll just rise to our level of expectations because we have them. It’s like, “Well, if they told you they’re not going to, well, then they’re not going to.”

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah. And, you know, hey, who knows? They might do something different because you’re acting differently and you’re not constantly resenting them and telling them what they’re doing wrong. And so they might start doing something differently, but we can’t control that. We have no control of that.

And they’re apparently not willing to participate in a growth process with us. So that’s fine. I’m going to stop expecting what I wanted to get out of them. I’m not going to get it. So I’m just going to stop wanting it and expecting it. And I’m going to choose what’s right for me and set some boundaries that make sense for this relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And by abandoning that expectation, we increase our own peace, I would suppose, because we no longer feel repeatedly wronged, disappointed.

Jeremy Pollack
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Because it’s like, “Okay, well, they didn’t deliver, but I didn’t expect them to, so now I no longer feel the sense of, ‘They should have.’”

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, if we’re going to hold people accountable for anything, they need to understand our expectations of them, and they need to agree to them. If they haven’t understood or agreed to our expectations, how are we supposed to hold them accountable?

And if they explicitly disagree and say, “I’m not going to do that,” then there’s no accountability. Like, you can’t hold them accountable for it because they’ve already told you they’re not going to do it. So stop expecting it. Stop wanting it.

At some point in the future, maybe the relationship changes, maybe the dynamic changes, maybe you can do something over time to build some more trust or build some more care with each other. And at that point, maybe there’s another conversation to be had and say, “Hey, I’m really interested in having a better or more meaningful or more productive relationship with you. Are you interested in that? Does that make sense to you at all?”

And if they say, “Well, no, it’s fine the way it is. It’s fine,” “Okay, okay. I’m just wondering, you know?” But if they said, “Yeah, I am,” then you could say, “Okay, cool. Well, let’s talk about it. Let’s figure that out.”

So, again, every change process, whether it’s a change towards peace or a change towards something else, it has to start with motivation. People involved in that change have to be motivated to change. So if someone’s not motivated, they don’t see a problem with it, or they just don’t care or whatever, and they’re not going to change, stop expecting it, stop being disappointed, stop being resentful about it. Accept things as they are and do your best, you know?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a theme that occurs in this conversation and elsewhere is that maintaining curiosity is super handy. And yet, often curiosity is quick to go, you know, when we feel wronged, threatened, insulted, offended, etc. Any pro tips for triggering curiosity, staying in curiosity, reclaiming curiosity when it seems to go out the window all too quickly?

Jeremy Pollack
Curiosity takes a couple of important traits. Number one is humility. So humility meaning, “I am going to accept the fact that I may not know the whole truth or everything that’s right, or I’m not the most moral or ethical one in the world or in this world, whatever. So I’m going to open space for someone else’s perspective because I want to learn a little bit.” So humility is really important to practice.

The other practice is confidence. So you have to have both humility and confidence because with too much confidence and no humility, you get arrogance, and too much humility, you get kind of meekness. So confidence is important, and the confidence is just, “I can handle it. Whatever their perspective is, I’m going to ask about it, I’m going to try to learn, whatever their perspective, their experience, etc., I’m not going to dismiss it and shut it down. I’m going to give space to it because I can handle that.”

People don’t give space because they’re like, “It’s wrong. It’s incorrect. I can’t handle what they’re saying. It’s too dangerous,” or whatever. “I can handle it. Whatever comes of it, I can handle it.” Have that confidence. So those two traits are important.

The third thing, sort of a tactical strategy that you can try as an experiment, if you want, is what I sometimes call like a new mind, or I think Buddhists call beginner’s mind. And so what I would say is, like, a little practice is, if you want to be curious, try your best, just as an experiment, to erase your brain from this, about what this is actually, what has happened in the past with this.

Erase your mind, erase the memories of what’s happened. Go into this with a totally fresh new mind and perspective. And in that state, if you knew nothing about the situation, knew nothing about the person really, knew nothing about this conflict, what questions would you ask to learn about that individual’s experience?

So if I came in, for instance, I know nothing about it, I’m coming in as an independent party, and I know nothing about this person or the experience, I have a certain set of questions that I want to ask just to get to know them, to learn about what’s going on for them. Can you put yourself in that sort of mindset as an experiment kind of thing, just to explore it?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Jeremy, lovely. Well, tell us, any key things you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Jeremy Pollack
I think one thing that we didn’t touch on too much, but what’s really important is the care piece. I tend to look at conflict resolution within really two main sections: care and solution. A lot of people jump straight to solution without caring first.

Care means, “I’m listening. I’m maybe repeating back what I’m hearing. I’m engaged. I’m showing someone I’m really seeing them. I’m hearing their perspective. I want them to know I care about their concerns and their goals before I try to solve them.” So I think that’s a really important piece that I think we skip a lot in conflict resolution.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And that sounds great to care. And if we’re not feeling that care, any tips on getting there?

Jeremy Pollack
Well, here’s the interesting thing about care. Care is not like trust. Trust has to be built over long periods of time. You can’t force it. You can choose to care about anyone in any moment and turn it off at any moment. It’s not just an emotion, but it’s also a behavior.

So if you’re motivated to change the dynamic, you can choose to care more for even just a minute or two minutes. You can turn, I would just like, envision you have like a care dial. It goes from zero to 10. And if you’re at a zero, you can choose to turn it up to 10, even though you’re like, “Oh, I really don’t want to,” or you have some story in your mind why you shouldn’t or something like that.

But if you are motivated enough, you can choose to do that. It’s like walking into a hospital, you see a sick patient, you don’t even know the patient, it’s a total stranger. And yet, if they needed something, if they needed help, and you could help them, you would turn your care dial up in that moment because you’re a good person and you want to care for that person.

So you have the choice to care in every moment. And I would just say, if you’re motivated to do it, try your best to do it if you’re trying to resolve a conflict and trying to change a relational dynamic.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Well, I can think of all sorts of imaginative labels for the increments on this care dial, from, “I don’t give a…” fill in the blank, to, you know, “You are the most precious human I’ve ever encountered.”

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, “Yeah, you’re the most important thing in the world at this moment.” And it could be that for 30 seconds, and then you’re done. But you can make someone the most important thing to focus on for 30 seconds.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jeremy Pollack
I’ll give you a favorite quote from a very important coach I had. And it was really a game-changer when he said it to me. It was a mantra that he gave me, and the mantra is, “What am I looking for from them that I need to give to myself?”

And every time that I started to feel resentful towards someone, especially someone that I couldn’t get what I wanted from them, I would ask that question, “What am I looking for from them that I could be giving to myself?”

And I said, I did it over and over and, eventually, I stopped looking to that person or those people for the thing they weren’t giving me. And I started trying to fill that need in my own self. And that was super helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
That is transformational. And I suppose it presupposes then that you are capable of giving yourself that thing. I’m thinking that, for me, often that answer is, “I want to feel like a winner, like, I’m doing a great job.” And, you know, a client or whomever, that sometimes isn’t giving you those vibes that I sure do want. How does one give them to one’s self?

Jeremy Pollack
You have to give it yourself. So think to yourself, “What is it that I would want to hear from that person?” That’s the thing to give to yourself. Because here’s the thing, not only does it presuppose you could give it. It presupposes, to me, it presupposes that you are the only one who can give it.

So people, their whole life, want things from their parents they never got. They want things from, potentially, their early childhood relationships or spouses or coworkers they never get. And it’s because, a lot of times, it’s not their job to give it to them.

Maybe, as early children, their parents, maybe they could have done a better job or something, but ultimately, when you’re an adult, it’s no one else’s job to give you the things you really need. It’s your job, and you are the only one who can constantly give you those things. You’re the only one who can.

It’s too much to ask for other people to give you those things on a regular basis. So, “Hey, I want this person to tell me I’m doing a great job.” Well, I think probably you need to tell yourself that. Like, if you’re needing that regularly, you’re probably not telling yourself that enough.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jeremy Pollack
Well, there’s lots of interesting theories that I think are fascinating. One of them is called terror management theory, which is, when someone feels like they are under threat, like all kinds of different threats, but survival threat, essentially, their adherence to their in-group identity becomes stronger. So they start to identify more with their in-group and, potentially, identify less with and feel more prejudicial towards their out-groups when they feel under threat.

So there’s this very interesting link between feeling threatened and feeling like my group identity now sort of is more salient. And I’ve seen that a lot in our world, and I think it’s an important piece of literature to consider when trying to analyze like, “Why are people in these large group conflicts?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jeremy Pollack
I think it’s called the Little Book of Conflict Transformation. It was by John Paul Lederach, who’s a pioneer in our field of peace building. And it really opened my eyes to how to look at conflicts, especially large and complex conflicts differently.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jeremy Pollack
Yeah, you can come to our website at PollackPeaceBuilding.com. You can get my books there, and also if you’re interested in our services or online communities, it’s all there.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jeremy Pollack
Do your best to care for your coworkers, and it doesn’t mean that you have to be friends with them. You just have to care about their goals and concerns. Do your best to just be a caring coworker.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jeremy, thank you.

Jeremy Pollack
Thanks, Pete. I appreciate it.

Pete Mockaitis
Dr. Adams, welcome!

Marilee Adams
I am so pleased to be here. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited, too. We’re talking questions and, boy, you have spent your whole career or a huge amount of time inquiring into inquiry, questioning questions.

Marilee Adams
That’s a really great way to put it. It’s true.

Pete Mockaitis
So I’d love to hear, what’s something you know about questions that most of us don’t?

Marilee Adams
Most people think about questions, they think about interpersonal questions – I ask you, you ask me, we hear other people ask each other. And, of course, that’s incredibly important. In fact, questions and statements are what make up language, frankly.

And there is another entirely different layer that goes on in our thinking that most people are not aware of. And that’s why I call the theory that I’ve come up with, question-thinking, because, in fact, we all think with questions all the time.

And what we typically think is a thought, is actually an answer to a preceding question, which means that if we can make visible or audible the questions we’re asking ourselves, and we know how to assess them and change them if we want different experiences and results, then we have a methodology that we can use in any role and any function, basically, for the rest of our lives.

And I can unfold that as we go on, but that’s why my work is really about the nature of thinking. So it’s a re-conceptualization of the nature of thinking which provides so many access points for different kinds of interventions.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Okay, so re-conceptualizing thought itself. Okay, that’s potent and that’s a really intriguing notion that there’s an extra layer there behind questions, not just, “Hey, this is how humans talk to each other. It’s kind of half of the things we say, you know, questions, responses, statements.”

So what we think of as a thought is actually an answer to a preceding question. As I consider my own lifetime of experience with thinking, I’m thinking that is often certainly clearly the case. I ask myself a question and then I come up with some answers, and so there’s that.

Marilee Adams
Oh, good.

Pete Mockaitis
But you’re suggesting that, is it most, all, many of our thoughts are, in fact, answers to preceding questions?

Marilee Adams
Yeah, I’m actually suggesting that it’s systematic and invisible. And when you can see it, and I’m going to demonstrate it in a minute, and then you can do something with it, then it’s remarkable how it changes everything in a very efficient and effective way. So, shall I illustrate this?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, maybe in just a second. I mean, how do we know that this is the case, and an illustration can help? But, I mean, like in the human experience, what is the best evidence to suggest that this is, in fact, how we operate?

Marilee Adams
I’m going to make it even more challenging than what you just said because the implication is also that our behavior is internal question-driven.

I want to give you an example because I really want to make this concrete, and I like ordinary examples because they’re very relatable. So let’s imagine that you just woke up and you’re getting dressed for the day.

So you go to your closet or your drawers or, if you’re traveling, your suitcase. And then you would ask yourself a series of questions, “Where am I going? What are other people wearing? What would be comfortable?” maybe even, “What will be clean?”

And then you do something really interesting. After the question, you engage in a behavior. You reach forward and you pick up whatever it is you’ve chosen and you put it on. And you could say that you are wearing your answer. Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you can.

Marilee Adams
But what I’ve also done is given you an example of the question-driven nature of decision-making. Whether it’s something as simple as getting dressed in the morning or as complex as, “Should we do this initiative? Should I hire this person? How should I run this meeting? How should we create this project? And what questions do we want the project or the initiative or the product to answer?”

And you used the word direction earlier, which I thought was great, because the questions we ask kind of design the direction we go in.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. And they can shut off directions in terms of, “Should we do this or this?” It’s, like, “Are those the only two options?” And then sometimes we don’t even stop to ask that question.

Marilee Adams
But that is a really great question. Just what you said is a great question, “Are there other options? What assumptions am I making? What biases are making me a little blind? Am I missing something?” And those are powerful questions, particularly if we want to be creative or we want to make well-based decisions.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s very intriguing. And, certainly, I’ve witnessed that as well in terms of the new question really does open up things. And I guess I’m just sort of still fixated on this notion of the questions I’m not even aware of, that I have been asking. Like, I can reverse-engineer the implied question. So would asking a new question to override my prior implied question be just as transformational?

Marilee Adams
Yeah, and I love that you’re “fixated” on that because it is a very novel concept. And what’s so interesting is not only is it novel but it’s practical. And so I’m going to give you an assignment, should you choose to accept it.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure.

Marilee Adams
And also, for all of your viewers or listeners, which is at any moment, at any time, stop, and ask yourself, “What questions am I asking right now?” and you get a readout. I ask people that all the time who don’t know anything about my theories. And because it’s just there, they go, “Huh? I’m asking myself dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.” And I can tell you a story about that, that I did with the coaching client, if you would like.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Marilee Adams
So this is a client who was afraid she was going to get fired. And so I asked her some more about her job, and she said, “Well, I really love my job. But I hate my boss. I’m afraid he’s going to fire me. Help.” Okay?

So I said to her, just casually, “Well, what questions are you asking yourself about your boss?” And she immediately came up with, “What is he going to do wrong today? And how is it to make me look bad?” And, of course, I understood immediately that it was her questions that were getting her in trouble.

So I said, “May I suggest some different questions for you to ask yourself?” And, of course, she said yes. And I gave her, “What is there to understand and appreciate about my boss?” And then I gave her, “What can I do to make my boss look good?”

And this woman, she looked like I had hit her with the two-by-four, which, in a way, I had, because the questions I gave her did not fit naturally into the way she was thinking before. And the next time I saw her was not in a session but at a community event.

And when she saw me, she got very excited, came running over with her husband trailing behind, and she said, “Would you like to hear a miracle?” I said, “Sure, I love miracles.” And she said, “Here’s what’s happened since that session. I got a promotion, I got a raise. And the best thing is my boss and I are now getting along very well.”

And I said, “That’s great. Congratulations.” Of course, I knew it wasn’t a miracle. It was a method and it was the method of giving her new questions to think with. So her husband is standing there. And I turned to him and I said, “That’s really great. Don’t you think it’s great?”

He goes, “Yeah, it’s pretty good.” And I said, “What could be better?” And then he breaks out into a big grin, and he said, “She doesn’t complain about that man for an hour every night anymore.” So four results from just changing her question.

Pete Mockaitis
And what I love most about this story is when you said “whacked over the head with a two-by-four,” and when you try on those new questions, there’s an internal state. I don’t know, it’s almost like being flabbergasted, maybe, is the English word. It might be the closest I could come up with.

You ask those questions and it’s just like, “Wait, what? Like, no, but he’s bad. Like, arrgh?” It’s like, “I’m having a short circuit.”

Marilee Adams
Now let me take that a little bit further because I just demonstrated something that I didn’t call out before, and that is that the theory of question-thinking is really pretty married to our mindsets. And so there are two basic mindsets that I work with, and I call them judger mindset and learner mindset.

And you can see just even by the names that the questions that she was originally asking were all judger mindset questions. And the questions I gave her were learner mindset questions. So she took up the new questions without even realizing that she was literally changing her mindset.

And it was that change in mindset, along with the new question, that changed the direction of her thinking and behavior that led her to those four results.

Pete Mockaitis
Very cool. All right. So is this the questions-thinking framework of yours or are there some key elements to be unpacked there?

Marilee Adams
Both. So when you understand, when one understands, this nature of thinking that I’m calling out, which is we’re always asking ourselves questions and they impact how we think, feel, relate, behave, and the results we get, and you start playing with that and experimenting with it, and you start noticing that it literally changes the way you see the world, how you move in the world, how you relate to people.

And you can easily extrapolate this to leadership, to working with teams, to running meetings, to making decisions, all of that, which is why so many organizations bring us in to teach this actual material, and then we watch the response to it.

So if you put together the mindset material and the self-questioning methodology, then it becomes, really, a strong thing. And what is imperative in it is the willingness and ability to self-observe non-judgmentally and to discover what’s literally going on under the surface that one can actually change once you can see it.

Now I could illustrate this on a graphic that I have the choice map.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. And this will also be in the show notes, listeners, for your visual reference. All right. Start. We can choose or we can react, which starts us down the path, choosing of the learner mindset, or reacting, the judger mindset. But then later on, we can do a switch. Okay.

Marilee Adams
So the switch is what I was just referring to. Once you can ask yourself non-judgmentally, “Am I in judger?” that liberates you to ask a switching question which will take you up to learner. And if you’ll know, I want to read what’s in the two signs there, because people probably can’t see them.

But judger says, “Automatic reactions, blame-focused, win-lose relating.” And then, of course, at the bottom, we have the famous judger pit. And I would claim easily that every one of us has gotten very muddy in that pit. I know I have. I mean, it’s impossible not to, actually, because the judger is also related to the amygdala, so there’s a fear based component to it.

Learner is it goes uphill, it’s a little bit more difficult, but it’s also very much rewarding. And so the sign says learner, “Thoughtful choices, solution-focused, win-win relating.” And you notice that the learner path goes off the page intentionally because it’s from learner mindset that we can create new futures, that we can literally be creative.

Whereas, if we’re in judger, we kind of recycle the same things over and over again. Now it’s very important to realize that we all have both mindsets and they’re both entirely normal. What’s really exciting about being able to see them is that once you can see that you’re in judger, you have the ability to switch.

So that’s why the switching lane is here. And there are some switching questions that are my favorites.

Pete Mockaitis
Lay them on us.

Marilee Adams
So, “Am I in judger?” is always the first one. And then, “Is this what I want to be thinking or doing? How else can I think about this?” And my favorite one is “Regardless of the circumstances, who do I choose to be in this moment?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, what I love about that sequence, specifically, and I imagine you’ve given it a lot of thought, Marilee. What I love about that is, it’s like these questions really do feel like a bit of an exit ramp, you know, bit by bit.

Marilee Adams
That’s a great way to say it. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, not like, “I’m warming up to the really hard questions that I can’t even really wrap my brain around just yet.”

Marilee Adams
That’s right. And I’ll take it a little bit further. So you mentioned neuroscience, so judger is more the sympathetic nervous system. Learner is more the parasympathetic nervous system. So every time we switch, we’re really, I believe, making a little dent in our neuroplasticity so that learner becomes more and more normal and more resident for us.

And while I’m here, let me add also that this also illustrates emotional intelligence, in a way. And this I’ve tested and spoken with experts and authors in emotional intelligence. So emotional intelligence is four pillars: self-awareness, self-regulation, self-management, social awareness, social skills, basically, right?

So I think being able to see that, “I’m in judger” and name it nonjudgmentally is very advanced self-awareness. It really is. And then switching is self-regulation and self-management. So every time somebody recognizes they’re in judger, and switches to learner, they are strengthening the first two pillars of emotional intelligence.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s super handy. And there’s so many directions we can go with this. You talk about Q-Storming as a useful approach. What is that and how do we do it?

Marilee Adams
Well, Q-Storming is one of the favorite things I ever made up.

Pete Mockaitis
Glad I asked.

Marilee Adams
And I’ve done hundreds of them. And, basically, if we want to alter a behavior and a result, in terms of my theory, we have to alter the questions we’re asking ourselves. And we need to come up with new questions that can take us in different directions.

So there are three stages to it. The first stage is something that you would do, basically, at the beginning of any project, which is, “What are we going for? What’s our goal?”

Because you know well, if you don’t establish that robustly, then there’s no place for anything else to stand. So, “What is it? What’s our goal?” And, first, I get people to say a lot of goals, and then we bring it, we really work on the goal. And this is a format.

So then the next thing is, “What assumptions are we making?” And that is a critical, critical stage, because every assumption we’re making is going to block our creativity and possibilities. And so I push on that quite a lot. And it’s assumptions I make about myself, about you, about others, and I pull those from the group.

And then once you’ve got out a healthy amount of assumptions, good, bad, and ugly, then now that you can see what you or we all are assuming, then you ask, “Okay, now what are the actual facts?”

And, oftentimes, people confuse assumptions and facts which really get you off on a wrong direction. So that part is always up front. So that’s phase one. Phase two is we start generating and capturing questions. And the kind of questions that I was describing earlier, questions we’re asking ourselves.

And I’ll pause a little and give you a quote. I think I told you this, it’s, actually, I dreamt this. And the quote is, “A question not asked is the door not opened.” So if we want new solutions, new thinking, new possibilities, we need to be asking new questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely.

Marilee Adams
And so it’s a long process of generating new questions. And I also want to contrast this with brainstorming, because brainstorming, it is the iconic creativity exercise, and the research is, actually, that it’s not quite as useful as people think. And I believe the reason for that is, in brainstorming, you’re coming up with ideas, solutions, answers, which is all well and good. Well, what if you’re answering the wrong questions?

So if I were doing like a big organizational effort, I’d be doing Q-Storming before brainstorming because that opens up your thinking and it also opens up your collaborative movements. So once we’ve got a really long list of new questions, that’s the end of phase two.

And phase three is, “Well, what do you do with all those questions?” Now in the third phase, we have to analyze the questions.

So the first thing to do is start putting them in buckets. And you don’t want to proclaim the buckets before you do this because the coolest thing would be is, if you come up with questions that don’t fit in a bucket, because that means there’s a place where thinking wasn’t occurring before, which is really great.

So when I was doing this in person, and I remember doing this, and I won’t say the agency, but it was there were 200 engineers in a particular agency, and I spent, literally, an entire day doing a Q-Storm with them around some really mission-critical issues.

And so after we generated, we had hundreds of questions, and I had them on flip charts, and then I had people go around and pick. They had to read all the questions, and every time you do that, of course, it’s opening up your thinking and they had to pick their five favorites. So they had a marker or Post-it or something.

So, then, we could narrow it to, “These are the top five questions,” and then they could choose. And you could see that that would be the beginning of a different strategy because they’ve opened up their thinking collaboratively. So it really is so practical and so creative. And we have companies and agencies who do this all the time now because they realize how effective and efficient it is and creative.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Marilee, I’m loving this. Might we be able to do an accelerated demo of some Q-Storming?

Marilee Adams
Well, we’d have to have a topic or a challenge, and it would have to be yours.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’ll give you one. Sure thing. Let’s go for it.

Marilee Adams
This is great. Nobody has ever asked me this before.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks. Well, I love, well, you know what, talk about questions, I love it when someone says that to me about my questions. So let’s go with this.

Let’s say, Marilee, I lose several hours a month of productive time because I get into little pockets of, “Ugh, I’m kind of tired and kind of bored and kind of don’t feel like doing what I probably should be doing on my to-do list. And so maybe I’ll just fiddle around on the news, or YouTube, or just sort of, like, time-wasting stuff.” It’s not really like life giving, right?

Marilee Adams
So the first question I would ask is, given that you said, the situation you said is maybe it’s procrastinating, which is normal, maybe it’s not feeling energized. But what would your goals be? What would you like to think and feel and do differently?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. I suppose my goal, it would be that each, well, I mean, I’m tempted to put numbers on them, but I don’t know exactly what the numbers would be. But I would just say the vast majority of hours in the vast majority of work days are spent on activities that are enjoyable and/or meaningful.

Marilee Adams
So a goal would be something like, “To use my time well so that I am productive and energized.” Would that work?

Pete Mockaitis
That is a clear, more succinct way to say that. Yeah, that works for me. Uh-huh.

Marilee Adams
Okay, so let’s go to assumptions. What assumptions are you making that hold up the state you want to leave? And, also, let’s do that first.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose the assumption in the moments could be that, “Oh, these tasks are not enjoyable.”

Marilee Adams
Okay.

Pete Mockaitis
“I am not in the optimal state of mind to do this at my best. It would be more fun to do this other activity.” Those seem like the biggies.

Marilee Adams
Okay, may I offer some assumptions that I think I heard, and you’ll tell me if they’re right or not?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Marilee Adams
So one is, “To do something, it has to be fun,” that you have to be in the right state of mind. Then there’s a deeper assumption that, “I don’t know how to get myself into the right state of mind.” Would that be accurate? As assumptions?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I think that those assumptions feel true at certain times. It’s, like, they flicker. They’re intermittent assumptions. Sometimes they exist and other times they seem like that’s nonsense. Of course, I do things I don’t like all the time, you know? Yeah.

Marilee Adams
Assumptions are just assumptions. And one of the really interesting things about questions, if you really think about it, particularly the ones we ask ourselves, is that entwined in our questions are our biases, our blind spots.

So when we ask questions, we’re actually bringing all of that history forward. So, can you think of a time when you actually got yourself into a different state? And then were able to do something?

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Certainly.

Marilee Adams
So tell me that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it happens nearly daily, perhaps, you know? I mean, I’m going to exercise or dunk my face in cold water or, you know, do some pump up music. Yeah, that’s very common practice for me.

Marilee Adams
Okay. So what you’ve just established as facts are two bunch of different things. One, there are times when you, I’m going to use my phrase here, that you enjoy being a couch potato and not doing what you said you were going to do.

Pete Mockaitis
There are those times, yes.

Marilee Adams
Me, too, by the way. I think everybody. And, also, there are times, when you bring some strategies to the fore that you know will work – put on energizing music, something that will help you alter your state. Correct?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Mm-hmm.

Marilee Adams
Okay, so let’s declare that the end of phase one, establishing everything. So now we have a goal, and a goal is not a question. Sometimes people think it is. A goal is a statement. It’s what we’re going for. So your goal is, “Use my time well,” which means productively and energetically or enjoyably, right?

So I’m going to start the Q-Storm part, the generating part, with throwing out a few questions. And then I’m going to ask you to start throwing out some questions as well, okay?

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty.

Marilee Adams
“What have I done successfully in the past that has helped me become more productive and energetic? Which of those was easiest for me? Which were more fun? Which actually move me along?” So now it’s your time to put in one or two questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I guess, “What can I buy to make this better?” because that’s easy and fun. “How can I enroll other people to assist me in this endeavor? And whom should I enroll to assist me in this endeavor?
What changes in my physical environment, you know, what I’m actually seeing and sitting in, could provide helpful lift in this regard?” That’s what’s coming to mind so far.

Marilee Adams
Okay. Given that we have limited time right now, and we’re now going to move into phase three, if we stayed with it, we could come up with a lot more questions.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d like to ask you, do you have a guideline, amount of time or questions, ballpark that’s good to hang here?

Marilee Adams
It’s never a prescription, and that’s actually one of my pet peeves when people have a list of questions they’re supposed to ask when you do that, A, you’re not thinking, you’re not welcoming-thinking, and you’re also not present with the other person.

So the thing is curiosity is the booster, and caring also. And this is a case in which curiosity and caring would matter for you. You care about your state, you care about getting things done, you care about your output, you care about your timelines, you care about downstream effects, like, “If I don’t do this, how will that affect them or the project or something?”

So, at this point, I would just say to you, of the questions you said, if you remember them, what were the top three that felt good to you, felt right?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so I want to use something that you said as well. in terms of, “What have I done historically that was the most fun and easy?” What I love about that is because, in a way, you know, hey, after nearly 1200 episodes of How to be Awesome at Your Job, yeah, we’ve collected a couple of tools, maybe too many along the way.

So what I love about that is it shifts me out of an overwhelm in terms of, like, “Oh, there are so many things I might do.” But it was like, “Well, no way, in your own experience, what have you found was the easiest and most delightful?” I was like, “That was really good. Well, yeah, let’s go ahead and keep a shorter list. This feels more more manageable.”

Because, in some ways, when you’re feeling tired and overwhelmed and not in the mood, having too many tools to choose from is counterproductive.

Marilee Adams
And what you just said was really important that this new question actually focused you out of overwhelm and gave you something to look for that was useful. Oh, you know what? I just thought of… I would include questions like, “Can I give myself a break sometimes?”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. I work too hard. I care too much.

Marilee Adams
You know, “Am I willing to forgive myself? And how can I enjoy being a couch potato for a specific amount of time?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is good. Okay, so now we’ve identified some extra winning questions. And where do we go from here?

Marilee Adams
Well, the last piece I would say, based on what you’ve just discovered and based on your goal, which is really an important one, what’s your first action item?

Pete Mockaitis
My first action item is to schedule a time to get an upgraded office desk chair.

Marilee Adams
Now you could list out a few more, and then you could prioritize them. So what other actions could you take?

Pete Mockaitis
I could ask Justin, who’s in the office with me, if there are some handy ways we could provide some friendly, accountable influence to one another, in focusing. I could get my pump-up tunes playlist, dusted off and curated a little better. It’s been a while since I’ve really tended to that, yeah.

Marilee Adams
I do Tai Chi every day, and I have an accountability partner, my Tai Chi teacher, and I text him every night after I’ve done it, “Did I do it once, twice, three times?” And he does the same with me. So he is my teacher, but we’re also accountability partners. And I know that it makes, there are times when I do it that I wouldn’t have done it if I didn’t have him to be accountable.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good.

Marilee Adams
So you have new action items you probably didn’t expect at the beginning of our conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and I appreciate it.

Marilee Adams
I also want to add one caution I would make is learn it and be careful about it.

I have had people read the chapter and then decide they ought to try it in some large high-stakes meeting and have it not work because they actually don’t understand it, they haven’t participated, they haven’t practiced facilitating it.

And so I put in that caution because I don’t want anybody to say, “Oh, I get this. I’ll just do it.” Experiment. Do it with yourself. Do it with a small team. Do not do it with the big, high-stakes mission-critical issue.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Marilee, before we hear about some of your favorite things, in general, I would like to ask if you could share with us three of your all-time favorite questions. It’s like, “Boy, it comes up so often, and it’s so transformational.” I know every situation is bespoke and unique and all that, but if there’s a few that just rock.

Marilee Adams
Okay, and some of these are going to sound very normal, “What do I actually want here? Like, what are my goals?” is always important. I love the question, “What am I missing?” And the one I said earlier, “Who do I choose to be in this moment?” And it’s always a centering question. It’s a question about presence, it’s a question about relationship, it’s a question about actually listening to people around.

And I think those are really important questions to have in your toolbox to ask over and over. And notice, I ask them in first person singular, but if you were a coach or you were a leader who’s using coaching methodology, you could ask them, you could change the pronoun, “What do you actually want here? What could you be missing? Who do you choose to be in this moment?”

So you change the pronoun and then it’s something you can invite other people to do as well. And using the word invite, I do want to say that questions should be experienced as an invitation to think, to collaborate, and that would be from a learner mindset. But when you ask questions that invite participation energy, it changes everything.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Marilee Adams
This one is adapted from Oliver Wendell Holmes, “I would not give a fig for the simplicity, this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Marilee Adams
One is The Science of Storytelling by Will Storr, S-T-O-R-R. And the other one is How to Tell a Story, and that’s by the people who put on all the Moth events.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great.

Marilee Adams
And, as you know, storytelling is a primary leadership skill. And, basically, if you want anybody to get anything, if you put it inside a story, it’s more likely to stick. They’re how we think. It’s why I wrote Change Your Questions as a story.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with people, they quote it back to you often?

Marilee Adams
Great results begin with great questions. And so keep asking and keep looking.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Marilee Adams
My website is InquiryInstitute.com. And if people want to email me, it would be marilee.adams@inquiryinstitute.com. And I really welcome queries and feedback, and it’s how I stay connected. We have a learning community of hundreds of people and it’s so much fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs.

Marilee Adams
No matter what is going on, stop, ask yourself – so pausing is really important – ask yourself, “What questions am I asking myself right now that I may not have been aware of?” Then you can ask, “Are they going to help me or hurt me?” And typically judger questions will impede progress, and learner questions will accelerate it.

And, of course, that stands on curiosity, real curiosity, because you have to be willing to discover a judger question. And then take action based on that. And that simple, it’s almost like a formula, will serve you professionally, personally, in every place in your life.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Marilee, thank you.

Marilee Adams
Thank you. It was fun.