921: Overcoming Failure and Achieving the Impossible with Astronaut Mike Massimino

Pete Mockaitis
Mike, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Mike Massimino
Thanks for having me, Pete. It’s good to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Mike, I’m excited to be chatting. You are a bona fide astronaut, and you spent some time in the Hubble Space Telescope. And my hometown Danville, Illinois has a hero we’re quite proud of, Joe Tanner, who also worked on the telescope. Tell us, you know each other.

Mike Massimino
Oh, yeah, Joe was a little senior to me but he was very helpful and a good mentor and instructor. He really was great. I call him St. Joseph because he was such a nice guy. He’s a religious guy but he was also just a good guy and was very thoughtful, a really good guy. You should be proud of him, Pete. He’s a good guy.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m glad, yes. Danville, Illinois, we love to be proud of Joe Tanner and Dick Van Dyke.

Mike Massimino
Oh, he’s another good guy. I met him a few years ago.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, good.
Mike Massimino
Yeah, I met him. We both were on the same talk show together, and I can’t remember which one it was. It was in L.A., and I got to meet him in the green room and spent some time with him. He’s just a really nice fellow.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s cool. You are plugged into all the cool kids but I think my listeners must know an awesome tale from your time in space.

Mike Massimino
So, I’ll just give you a little bit of background. I got a chance to service the Hubble Space Telescope so that was my job as a space worker on both my missions. So, an awesome tale from space, I would say, for me, what I still think about almost every day, Pete, is the chance to look at our planet and enjoy the view.

And the reason I get to think of that every day is not only the view itself that I saw, I thought I was looking into an absolute paradise, is that I have a different appreciation for the planet now. I think we’re living in an absolute paradise. We should be very happy every day we have a chance to be here. And I got that impression looking at our planet from space. It just looked like it was a perfect place for us to have. We’re very lucky to be here. I felt like I was looking into heaven.

And so, I think about that all the time. But being around the planet, you get a chance to engage it, and enjoy its beauty whether you’re looking at buildings, or people, or a mountain, or clouds. It truly is an amazing place, and we should try to appreciate it every day.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Thank you.

Mike Massimino
You’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now my wife will make sure I ask you. You actually had a medical disqualification but you trained your very eyes and brain to see better. How is that even possible? What did you do?

Mike Massimino
Well, the third time I applied to be an astronaut, I got an interview. The first two times I was just rejected outright. The third time, though, I got an interview, and then I was medically disqualified. I failed the eye exam.

I didn’t know if LASIK existed back then but they certainly didn’t accept it, or they didn’t accept any kind of medical procedure to improve your eyesight, and you had to see pretty well without glasses and contacts. Well, all these rules are changed now so it’s not an issue any longer. But back then, in the mid-1990s it was still a pretty strict requirement to see well without your glasses.

And I was left with no options, really, it seemed. So, what I did was look into it a little bit, and I found out about vision training where you can do exercises and try to train your eyes to focus beyond what they’re looking at, which is kind of interesting.

So, if we focus at an object that’s put in front of us, we can see that clearly. And two feet, we change our focus and we can see that but, eventually, you run out of room, and what you try to do is look beyond that object and try to focus on something beyond that object, and then what you’re looking at kind of comes into focus.

So, it’s a bit of a training not just for your eyes but your brain as well. And I found an optometrist in Houston that specialized in that, and she helped me out, and was able to pick up a couple lines on the eye chart so I could at least apply again. I was able to get medically qualified again and, at least, I was able to submit another application. Once you’re medically disqualified, that’s it. You’re done but I was able to get it overturned.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. And as I’m imagining this in my own mind’s eye, I’m hearing a Rocky montage music as you’re doing vision training.

Mike Massimino
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
Was it like that each day?

Mike Massimino
No, it wasn’t really very physical or Rocky with the physical. No, it wasn’t that. It was more like, I don’t know, some kind of strange evil eye I was giving somebody, it seemed like it, kind of staring out. I don’t know what it would’ve been. More like a Psycho movie or something but not Rocky. Rocky music can get involved in other things.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, if we cut the scenes together and just so, and put the right soundtrack behind it, yeah, I think that could be an inspiring portion of your movie.

Mike Massimino
Maybe so.

Pete Mockaitis
The Mike Massimino tale coming to big screen.

Mike Massimino
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, so you got a book here, Moonshot: A NASA Astronaut’s Guide to Achieving the Impossible. That sounds cool. Could you perhaps kick us off with a couple stories, maybe one inspiring, an inspiring victory and a disappointing failure of those who set out to achieve the impossible?

Mike Massimino
Well, it’s interesting you mentioned that because I think every victory was preceded by a failure. So, to me, in my life, Pete, they seem to run together. So, the first of those, I mentioned I’d been medically disqualified and things weren’t working out with me but I went through vision training and then I was able to rectify that and get selected as an astronaut, so that was a victory. It ended up as a victory.

And I think that things like that, and also failing my qualifying exam at MIT the first time I took it, I did miserably on it and failed, and my advisor talked to me afterwards, and said he didn’t think it was worth my while to try again. They typically give you a second chance at this six months later for that exam. And I thought about it and decided I did want to give it a try, even though it seemed unlikely. And I went back and told him what my decision was, and he said something like, “You know, Mike, if one can learn to live with indignities, one can go far in life.”

And I think it was his way of saying, “If you can get knocked down and beat up, and get up again, you can go far.” And I looked at what I had done to fail, I got cooked in the oral part of the examination. It was a written part followed by the next day, it was an oral exam, and I wasn’t good at thinking on my feet. And some of my friends, I reached out to my friends about it, they knew what happened, and I told them what happened, and the suggestion was, “Well, let’s put together a little team to help you.”

And my friends who had passed the exam in the past, I’d buy them cookies on Friday afternoon, and they would drill me at the blackboard in a small conference room at MIT, and I got much better at answering questions on my feet. And so, I was able to retake the exam and come out with a victory. And I think that those lessons, that and other things, I think anything worthwhile I think is difficult and it doesn’t work out the first time.

And once I got to be an astronaut, every one of us who was in my astronaut class had some sort of adversity to overcome because it’s not an easy thing to do. You just don’t sign up to be an astronaut. It’s a pretty long and could be grueling process to get in there and faced with lots of obstacles. But once you get in, you’ve accomplished something by getting in, but you haven’t done anything yet, Pete. You just showed up for work.

And so, now I think it’s that same grit and determination that get us to the goal that is required to make us successful once we’re given the opportunity. It’s no time to slack off. And so, you talk about success and failure, I was faced with that throughout my training, and also in space. I was repairing the Hubble Space Telescope in my final spacewalk, and it was a very complicated repair, but there was something I was going to do, which was remove a handrail which was blocking my access to this panel that I had to remove to get to a power supply.

It was a very complicated spacewalk, the most complicated, complex one we’ve ever tried. And I made a real bonehead mistake. So, this is where the failure is. I stripped the screw when removing that handrail and we didn’t have a backup because it was so simple. We had a backup for everything else but not this but they came up with a solution.

The handrail was loose at the top. I had gotten through the screws at the top off. There’s just one stuck on the bottom, and the solution was just to tear it off. Now that might seem simple but it took about an hour to come to that solution. And I was able to comply with that, rip off that handrail, and continue with the repair.

So, I think, I would say, each major victory or success I’ve had was always preceded by a pretty bad failure. And in the way I recovered was getting help, both when I was taking my qualifying exam, I got help. I got help from an optometrist to get over the medical problem I had, and then I got help from the mission control center.

And I talk about that in the book where you’re not in this alone. When you need help, reach out to your mission control center, whoever that is. Know that help is there for you somewhere. Reach out. People know you need help. And also, be that person that other people can come to when they need help.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love that. That’s a fantastic principle right there. And I will think of you every time I strip a screw from now on, which is semi-often actually, Mike, I’m like, “Don’t beat yourself up.”

Mike Massimino
Happens all the time, man. Well, it happened at the wrong time, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Out in space.

Mike Massimino
It really happened. I looked out, when I first realized what I had done, I took a look out, bent down to see what I had done, and I didn’t see a hex head hedge screw anymore nor a piece of metal. And I kind of leaned out of the telescope, I leaned myself out, I was in a foot restraint. I leaned out and looked at the planet, and we were over the Pacific Ocean, Pete, and I couldn’t imagine a hardware store to get to. So, it’s one thing when you strip a screw at home, it’s another thing when you’re in space when that happens but, luckily, the team came through for me with a good solution.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m curious if you drive screws any differently now as a result of that one experience.

Mike Massimino
I kind of do but I’ll tell you the other one. So, those were big screws, they were big bolts, and we didn’t expect them to be a problem. But one of the next things I had to do was remove 111 small screws that were really tiny, and those we were more concerned about stripping than the one that was easy. So, it certainly changed the way I behaved from then on for the spacewalk, and I try to remember that at home, too. You can create a lot of problems and a lot of work for yourself by moving too quickly, so you try to learn from your mistakes.

One of the things I talk about or write about is that if you’re going to make mistakes, it’s okay to be upset and give yourself 30 seconds of regret, beat yourself up internally, call yourself names, don’t vocalize it because you’ll scare people but leave it to 30 seconds and then move on. And that’s something that helped me because you’re going to make mistakes. You don’t mean to but it’s going to happen.

And then the other thing to remember when you’re dealing with a problem is it could always get worse. No matter how bad it is, you can make it worse. And sometimes we make one mistake and we follow it up by trying to rush and do better, and we make another mistake. And now we’ve got a problem B to fix before we can go back to problem A.

So, that’s what I try to keep in mind, particularly during my spacewalks, and when I’m working on stuff around the house. You make a mistake, 30 seconds of regret, and move on. Try to solve it and then don’t make it worse. Give yourself a chance to fix one problem at a time.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s paradoxically very comforting that idea of, “Oh, I can make it worse” because, in a way, well, one, it’s just absolutely true. I’ve just lived that. And, two, it’s just sort of a potent reminder of when you feel powerless in those moments, you do have power. And even if you don’t feel much hope that you can make it better, you have the power to make it worse.

Mike Massimino
You do. No, you absolutely do. And when I made that mistake, I mentioned earlier, I even thought about, “How could I make this worse? Well, I could break something. I could do something to my spacesuit. I could lose the tools I was going to need to fix this.” You’ve got to be really careful. Things float. Objects can become permanent satellites if you’re not careful with them and you don’t use the right protocol to tether things and to keep an eye on things.

And I saw that happen. I’ve seen guys lose one tool, and then have to go get a replacement, and lose that one as well, and now you’re really cooked. So, I’ve noticed these things, and you’ve got to be careful because once you do one thing wrong, if you try to rush to make up for it especially, guess what’s going to happen, Pete, problem number two is going to happen. It will get worse so you’ve got to be careful. Get help. It’s time to slow down and get help when that happens.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, I’d love your take here – is 30 seconds better than zero seconds or 10 seconds?

Mike Massimino
I think so.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s hear it.

Mike Massimino
Because you need to be regretful. I think. And I think 30 seconds, to me, is a good enough time that you can beat yourself up. You don’t want to ignore it, “Ah, I’ll leave it in the past.” See, the thing is people keep telling me, “You’ve got to leave it in the past. Move on from your mistakes. Learn from them and move on.” But it’s hard to move on, and I tended to beat myself up for a long time when something would go wrong or I’d make a mistake. It could go on for a week of regret, like, “Oh, man, I really messed that up. It’s terrible.”

But you’re not getting that time back. And in space, you can’t afford to check out for even a minute. You got to stay engaged. And so, that’s a lesson that I learned because I had to. In space, I just could not check out. I’m the guy out there doing the spacewalk. I can’t wallow in the misery. I have to stay engaged. But the value of it is for what goes on, on the planet, all the time when we make mistakes, and that same principle applies.

And I think it’s okay to be remorseful and be regretful, and say, “Holy cow, that was a terrible stupid thing to do. I can’t believe I did that,” and rant. Let yourself have it for 30 seconds, and then you got to get back in the game.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Mike Massimino
Leave it in the past. Flush it. Leave it in the past.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you’ve got some other perspectives here, such as cultivating a bank of good thoughts. What is this tool about? And how does it help us?

Mike Massimino
All right. So, for that one, I was told a rule or something to think about by my friend Alan Bean, who was the fourth person on the moon, fourth person out of the 12 to walk on the moon. And he told my entire astronaut class that the key to being a good leader and a good teammate is to find a way to care for and admire everyone on your team.

At the same time, we often, to solve complex problems in today’s world, we work together with a diverse group of people, because if everyone thinks the same way, you’re not going to solve major problems. You need people who have different perspectives. Sometimes that can lead to friction and you might find that you don’t like somebody, like, “I just can’t admire that person. I don’t…and I can’t…”

So, if you find someone like that, Alen went on to explain, don’t think of it as you don’t like them. Think of it as you don’t know them well enough, and take the time to get to know them, and find something that you care and admire about them. And I kind of added onto that concept with this bank of good thoughts that you mentioned, that I think it’s important to, when you find someone you don’t like, and you take that time, you got to find… you think you don’t like.

It’s not that you don’t like, you don’t know them well enough. You really don’t. Because people who are in your family or people that are in your workplace, they’re there for a reason. Their name wasn’t picked out of a hat. They have something to add and you have to spend a little time. And when I’ve done that, I’ve always felt so much better about things.

One of my best friends I had a very bad impression with when I first met him, another astronaut, named Andrew Feustel. I thought he was kind of loose and didn’t care, and I just was wrong. And I took the time to get to know him, and we’re great friends. I spoke to him yesterday for about an hour on the phone. A really good friend of mine. And my first impression wasn’t great but I don’t know what he thought of me. Probably not great either, but we took the time to get to know each other, and we really love each other. A great guy. A really great friend.

And I think it’s important, when you find that thing that you like about a person, that you care, that you find that common ground, something that they’ve done that’s good, when people help you, when they show up for you when you need them, when they do some kind act somewhere in their life, or whatever it is that you have about them, that you found out, or that you’ve experienced with them, you have to put that in the bank of good thoughts because you’re going to need to take a withdrawal.

When you start feeling badly about that person, when they do something that might aggravate you, don’t act right away. Take a beat and go get a withdrawal from that bank of good thoughts, and have that good thought in your mind, “Yeah, this person might’ve done this that I didn’t like, and I need to address it, but before I go and send that bad email, or confront that person in an angry way,” because that’s not good.

Go to the bank of good thoughts with that good thought and have that in the forefront of your mind, and say, “Look, I really care about this person. We might have this misunderstanding. I’m going to have to deal with it, talk to them about, to clear the air, but I’m going to go in there with that good thought.” And I think that’s a good way to do it because one bad experience, one bad thought, one bad email, one final to handle, whatever it is, that can destroy a thousand good things.

So, one bad thing, that’s worth a negative a thousand, and to make it up, you’re going to do a thousand good things to make up for it, I think, with a relationship. And that’s what we’re dealing with when we’re working on a team, is building those good relationships with our teammates.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say bank of good thoughts, I am actually imagining specific statements associated with specific people. Is that fair? And could you give us some examples of how these are articulated?

Mike Massimino
Like, for example, with a family member, my brother, for example. He has come through for me on many occasions. And if we have an argument, or something is going on, I try to remember, “This is one of the most important people in my life.” You might argue as siblings or you disagree about things, but he has been there for me when I really need him, and I try to remember that as best I can.

With my crew mates, I try to think of the times where they helped me when I needed them, when I was counting, when I was having some trouble with a concept or with training, and they were there for me and stuck by me. I try to think of that. Or, with my friend Drew that I mentioned, he was a really smart guy, very mechanically inclined, would help me fix all kinds of things. So, that personal relationship where I appreciate his help, but also, I admire his ability that he was a great spacewalker and a really good astronaut is what I came to find.

I do talk about one case where there was one person we were working with on our team, an engineer, that we were having some difficulty with, and he just seemed strange. That person was just like, “I don’t know about this guy.” And people would discount what he would say because they thought he was a little bit different. But I took the time to get to know him, and realized, “This guy is really smart, and he was really dedicated, and he could probably be doing anything that he wanted to in his life, but he decided to dedicate his time and his career to the space program, and, more specifically, helping us be successful on Hubble.”

And so, the feeling was, “Well, it’s a strange idea, whatever he was talking about,” that might turn people off, I try to think of, “Wait a minute. This guy is a really smart guy. Maybe he’s not communicating his ideas well. Let’s give him a chance. Let’s remember what’s his value. Let’s not devalue people. Let’s remember why they’re here and what they can do for us, and what they can do to help the team. Not just for output, what they can do to help the team.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. And do you have these written down somewhere?

Mike Massimino
No, they’re in my head.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Mike Massimino
Maybe I should write them down, Pete, but it’s in my head.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I guess I’m just imagining in the heat of battle if you’re really ticked off at somebody, you might have a hard time remembering the good thoughts you have about them.

Mike Massimino
Just take them, Pete. You can remember.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And now, I’m thinking about professionals who, in the course of their jobs, are feeling maybe a little bit timid or scared, in certain contexts. Maybe it’s before a big presentation, or taking on a risk, or making a career change, or something. You have faced some uncertainties, some potentially scary things, and found the courage within. How do you think about courage and stepping up and enduring discomfort well?

Mike Massimino
Whenever you’re nervous, I think that that’s okay. I think that that shows that you actually care about what you’re doing. And if you’re not nervous, it probably doesn’t mean that much to you. If you’ve got an assignment or something to do that seems scary or makes you nervous, I think that’s a good sign. I think that you should try to use that to help you get ready. I don’t think being scared is good.

There’s times in my life where I was scared and I tried to shut that out because I couldn’t afford it. The thought that went to my mind during one of my spacewalks were, after I made that mistake, I was going to have to do some things I was a little bit uncomfortable doing. I had to go and translate, I had to move as a spacewalker in some areas that were going to be difficult to do that in, and I was scared, like, “Oh, my gosh, what happens if something happens here?”

And I realized being scared is not going to help. I had an airplane incident one time, we had a hydraulic leak in the airplane, we might have to eject, and right away you know the fear or scared, and I realized, “Being scared is not going to help me here. I’m trained. Let me follow the procedure.” And I found that you can use that nervousness, an anticipation to get ready and make your plan.

And then when it’s actually time to face whatever it is you’re doing, I think thinking about is a lot worse than doing it once you’re actually in the heat of the moment, whether it’s making a presentation, or delivering whatever it is you need to deliver to a group, or whatever that might be, whatever that event is, that now it’s time to relax and trust, and trust your gear, the tools you have to help you, whether that’s a computer, or a parachute, or whatever it is you’re using that day. In my case, it was some of those things, like getting in an airplane and trusting a parachute is going to work if I need it.

But trusting your gear, your tools, your computer, whatever it might be, trust your training. Your name wasn’t picked out of a hat. The reason you’re given that assignment was for a reason. And whatever you did to get ready, you can consider as training. And then you’ve trained yourself to be ready for it, and you’ve shown yourself to be worthy, so trust your training.

Trust your team is the third trust. Life is rarely a closed book test. It’s usually an open-book test. You can get help when you need it. So, remember that there’s a team behind you to help you when you need them. And, finally, trust yourself that you’re going to be up for the challenge. So, I think that’s what helped me face really scary things that made me nervous. It was just trust that, “I’m ready for this. It’s okay. I can handle it. I have a team behind me. I have the right tools. It’s going to be okay.”

So, that’s what helped me face some of these things, that, even looking back on, I’m not sure how I did it, but that’s how I did it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, what seems really wise there is you feel fear coming on, and you just decide, “That’s not going to serve me. I put that aside.” Is it just like that, Mike? Is that all there is to it?

Mike Massimino
Well, not necessarily. It depends on the moment you’re in. Let me give you another example. I don’t like heights. And I was on an exercise out in the Canyonlands where we were doing a lot of rock climbing and rappelling and hiking at heights, like very close to the edge of a cliff, and walking up very steep rock formations, and it was driving me nuts after a while.

I just didn’t like it. And I realized I had to figure out a way to get through this because we were out there for two weeks. And right from the get-go, I think I probably dealt with it for an hour or two, but after a while, I was like, “I don’t think I can do this for a couple weeks.” And I reached out to one of my teammates, Jim Newman, who was my spacewalking buddy, and we were out on this adventure together with the rest of our crew. And I said, “Look, man, I don’t know what I’m going to do. I just don’t like this.”

And he says, “All right. Let’s try to take care of this.” And during one of our breaks, we kind of went around the corner, we were having lunch on a rock, more or less. We’re pretty high up on a mountain in an incline. And we walked around the corner so no one would see us around the corner of this rock, and there was a steep face there, and he held my hand, and we walked around it. And then, he let go and made me move around by myself.

Then he made me jump up in the air just to get the confidence that I was okay. So, I think that there are times where you need to think. If you’re in a situation where you’ve been trained to handle the situation, like, I think a lot of times you are, something goes wrong, and hopefully you’re able to handle it, or you’ve been trained to handle it.

So, it depends on the situation but there were times where I was, like, “I can’t be scared right now.” Being scared is a luxury. If you have time to be scared, I think that maybe things aren’t as bad as you think. But I felt like, in those few occasions, like in the aircraft and when I was spacewalking, when something came up, I needed to work the problem. Just being scared was not going to help me. So, yes, I did turn off.

But in other cases where, like the example of being afraid of heights and being scared of the situation I was in, I had time to try to solve that. And it wasn’t just a 10-minute experience. I was going to have to be out there for a couple weeks so I dealt with it in a different way. But I think it’s okay to feel these things. It shows that you want to be better at them when you’re nervous but the scared part of it, I think that could affect our ability to think at a time where we need to think.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. And as you’re sharing your story, it sounds like, I guess, psychologists would say, “Well, that’s simply exposure therapy,” and how that works. And I’m reminded of Bryan Cranston has a lovely autobiography, it’s called My Life in Parts, or A Life in Parts. And when he was doing theater stuff, he was scared of the heights associated with the lights and stuff.

And so, his director said, “Okay. Well, here’s how we fix that,” just very matter of fact. “I’m going to hold this ladder and you’re going to climb up to the top.” He’s like, “I’m scared.” “Yes, I know.” And he’s like, “Now, you’re just going to hang out there for a while.” He’s like, “Yeah, but I’m scared.” And it’s like, “Yeah, it’ll go away eventually.” And sure enough, it did. And that’s how you solve that.

Mike Massimino
Yeah, I would avoid that. The other way is to avoid height. I try to avoid it wherever possible, but sometimes you’re in a position where you need to deal with it. And I found myself in those situations where I had to do it. I just had to, “There was no choice. This is the way home. You have to deal with it.” And that’s when you got to figure out a way to face it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. I’d also love to hear, in the unique environment that is being out in space with just a few teammates, that’s a whole another flavor of environment in which teamwork skills get put to the test. Can you share, are there any nifty principles or takeaways that you believe can be handy for typical working professionals as well that you’ve picked up from that environment?

Mike Massimino
I think what I learned at NASA pretty much from the get-go was the importance of the team success and that you can’t do things alone. And that was taught to me very early on. My first week at NASA was mainly administrative stuff where we all got to know each other a little bit, we’re in a classroom where we get briefings about different things but we were going to start the training in the second week in earnest.

And one thing that I wasn’t looking forward to that I knew was coming up was that I was going to have to pass a swim test. I did not like the water as a kid. I never learned how to swim very well but we were told, and when we were accepted as astronauts, we were given our packet, after we get the phone call, saying, “You’re in,” which was a great phone call. We got a package of info, and in that there was, in the cover letter, like the second paragraph, it said, “Please practice your swimming skills because you’re going to have to pass a swim test in order to go to water survival training with the Navy.”

And the reason we need to go to water survival training is we’re going to be in an ejection seat aircraft, we eject over water, we need to be able to survive in the water until the help can get to us. But we’re on the Space Shuttle, also there’s a bailout mode. We might end up bailing out if you can’t land on a runway, if you’re having trouble during launch and you can’t make it to orbit, you can’t come back and land in the United States, and you can’t make it over to the other side of the ocean to southern Europe or to one of the landing sites in southern Europe or North Africa, you end up in the ocean.

So, in order to do our jobs, is we had to go through that training. And then to do that training, we had to pass the swim test. And I practiced as much as I could but I still was worried about making myself look like an idiot in the water.

And so, at the end of that first week, we’re about to go home for the weekend, and Jeff Ashby, one of the pilots from the class before us, was our class sponsor, kind of leading us through our training. And he said to us at the end of that day on Friday, he said,
“Who are the strong swimmers in this class?” and a few people raised their hand. And then he said, “Who are the weak swimmers, more important? I want to see a show of hands.” And I raised my hand as a weak swimmer. And he said, “Okay, anyone that didn’t raise their hands can go home. But the strong swimmers and the weak swimmers are going to stay after class. We’re going to arrange a time to meet over the weekend at a pool, and the strong swimmers are going to help the weak swimmers with their swimming because when we go to the pool on Monday, no one leaves the pool until everyone passes that test.

And so, that setup for me, that in trying to accomplish something, it’s a team goal. And individual success is great but if you’re good at something, your job is to help your teammates. And if you’re having trouble with something, your job is to admit it because you don’t want to hold back the rest of the team. And that set the bit of my head of what it was going to be like, that we’re depending on each other.

And so, when we got to space, and you’re talking about conflict, I felt like space life brings out the best in people because you knew that you had to depend on that person in order to be successful on the mission. You can’t do it alone. And that also, for me, what was helpful, was that, what we talked about earlier, when a conflict did arise, you’re like a family member, you love each other, but you might argue once in a while with your crew mate, and you’re going to have conflicts and disagreements, and that’s not good but they’re going to happen, and you need to deal with them.

But I think it’s always good to remember why you like that person, and why they’re important to you, and try to address the problem with that in mind, with good intentions, and not being mean. And that’s the way we did it. So, we would have a conflict or a problem with somebody, we always raise it and always honestly, and usually it was better to clear the air. Don’t let it fester because it just gets worse for the team to do that.

And if you look at it from the perspective that, “I’m speaking up about this for the sake of the team, for the sake of the mission,” then it’s not necessarily just a personal problem, it’s, “Hey, I think this is something we need to talk about because I think it’s going to hurt our team.” Then I think everyone can get on board with that if you think of it that way.

One of the things you mentioned, too, about people not wanting to speak up or raise something, one of the things I learned was the importance of speaking up, whether you’re having an issue with someone, or you made a mistake, or you have an idea, and oftentimes it’s the new person that has the best ideas. And so, I think that people should speak up, and I think it’s up to leadership, though, to foster that sort of culture where, if someone speaks up and admits a problem they’re having, they’re not going to be punished, or a mistake they made, they’re not going to find retribution for it. They’re going to be helped, and we can learn from their mistakes.

And so, if not, if people don’t come forward with the mistakes they’ve made, then people are going to repeat them, and that doesn’t always work because sometimes these mistakes might be something that could hurt you. If you’re in an airplane or a spaceship, and you do something wrong and you get away with it, you want to tell people about it because the next guy might not get away with it. So, it’s important to have a culture, I think, where those concerns can be raised.

And also, good ideas. A new person has a fresh perspective on things, and a lot of times it’s the new person that has the right idea. In my case, doing spacewalks, one of the spacewalks I was assigned to in my first flight had been done before but it didn’t always go well. It took a long time and it’s hard to align one of the scientific instruments on the Hubble. And I had a suggestion of a tool that could help us align it, and I put that forward, and the team liked it, and we designed it, and that’s the way we installed the instrument using the tool that I envisioned.

Now, for every good idea I had, there was probably 20 of them that stunk, but you don’t want to squash the bad ones or the ones you think aren’t good. You want to hear them out because you don’t want to lose that creativity. You want people to keep coming back with their ideas. So, I think leadership needs to set the tone that people can bring up concerns, can bring up ideas, can raise conflicts, so we can talk about it and move on.

And people need to feel that leadership has that culture, is fostering that so they’re not going to get in trouble for bringing something up, that they have the ability to speak up when they feel there’s a need to say something.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. Thank you. Mike, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Mike Massimino
No, go ahead.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mike Massimino
“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with the success unexpected in common hours.” What do you think of that? Henry David Thoreau.

Pete Mockaitis
I hope you do voiceovers, Mike.

Mike Massimino
I have. I’ve actually done…I was a voice in the latest Beavis and Butt-Head movie, the voice of mission control in “Beavis and Butt-Head Do the Universe.” Well, take that. What do you think of that, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
I don’t know why it’s not in your bio, Mike. I feel like that should be the first thing.

Mike Massimino
That should be the first thing we mentioned. I don’t know. And we talked about all the space and everything while this other…yeah, I lead with that. I save that one, Pete, if I meet a Nobel Prize winner or some really smart person who’s telling me about something they did, “Oh, I was a voice in the latest Beavis and Butt-Head movie. How about that?”

Pete Mockaitis
I very much appreciate that. Thank you. And could you share with us a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Mike Massimino
For me, personally, the stuff that I enjoy doing, I teach at Columbia’s human-machine interaction and figuring out what humans can do well, and what machines can do well, and designing displays to help people control things. That’s what I enjoy. But as far as the stuff that’s interested me, that I don’t necessarily participate in but I find amazing, is the astronomy, particularly the stuff that’s come out of the Hubble Space Telescope, and now what we’re seeing with the James Webb Telescope.

I was very pleased to be able to participate in those missions, in the Hubble Space Telescope missions. And to see the science that came out of it, that research I think is amazing because it’s answering some of the big questions of, or trying to answer some of the questions of “Are we alone in the universe? How did we get here? Where do we go after? How did this all happen?” And they’re getting closer to those answers.

And it’s through the use of these amazing telescopes and some really smart people that have been able to come up with those answers, and also coming up with questions that we don’t know the answers to yet. I installed an instrument called the Advance Camera for Surveys that was used to validate the theory of dark energy, which led to a few astronomers getting the Noble Prize in Physics as a result of that discovery, which was an energy source.

The universe is expanding but it’s also accelerating, and they don’t know why it’s accelerating. It doesn’t make any sense. It’s like throwing a football, instead of it landing on the ground, slowing down and landing, it goes faster. It actually picks up acceleration, it goes faster. And that’s what’s happening to the universe, and they call that dark energy. So, I think those are the really cool things that’s going on. And I don’t directly work in that research area but I feel like I’ve had a hand in it by fixing the telescope that they use for a lot of this stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. They didn’t give you a piece of the prize though.

Mike Massimino
No, not at all. No, but I feel like I had their gratitude, that’s for sure. Every time I see one of those folks, they say, “Oh, thank you for risking your life so that we could do our research.” And I’m like, “Thank you for giving me a good reason to go to space.” So, yeah, it’s like a mutual admiration society there.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Well, I want to ask about a favorite book, and if I may steer you in the direction of something physics related. It’s funny, I’ve actually, by fluke of how my credits worked out in high school and college, never taken a physics course, and I feel a little ashamed. And I might just take one myself, like university continuing education extension, whatever.

But that was some fascinating stuff about the dark matter. Are there any cool books you recommend that are very accessible for lay people to wet their whistle and get a great understanding of physics, and maybe less of a textbook flavor and more of a, “Whoa, this is amazing” flavor?

Mike Massimino
Well, my friend Neil deGrasse Tyson has a book Astrophysics for People in a Hurry. So, if you’re in a hurry, I think that’s the right book to get, so I would recommend that. And even if you’re not in a hurry, I think it’s a good introduction to all things astrophysics. Another book that I like, if you like looking at the stars, the book that I used, there was an MIT course for observing. One of the books we had to learn the constellations, and I used that at NASA as well. It’s written by H.A. Rey, the guy that wrote “Curious George,” the monkey.

He wrote a book called The Stars and it talks about all the different constellations. But as far as what’s going on in astrophysics, I think Neil’s books are really good. I think Brian Greene is also another good author that writes some pretty cool stuff about what’s going on. He’s more in the mathematical bent of things but I would recommend anything by those two guys.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And can you recommend a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Mike Massimino
My favorite tool has to be a Leatherman. You can almost get anything done with a Leatherman.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be awesome at your job?

Mike Massimino
What I try to do is I try to appreciate where we are in the universe every day. I talked about looking at the planet earlier, I think, when we started. I think we talked about that, viewing the planet and how beautiful it is. I try to do something every day to appreciate our planet, whether it’s just even riding on the New York City subway, looking around at the faces around me, looking at the leaves on the trees, up at the clouds, stars at night, something. We’re living in an amazing place and I think we need to take a timeout at least once a day to just be amazed at how amazing this place is.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Mike Massimino
When I was pursuing the astronaut job and got rejected all those times, we talked about the medical disqualification. What kept me going was the mathematical reality that things aren’t necessarily impossible as long as you try. And it might be one out of a million as your chances for success but that’s not zero.

One out of a million is a non-zero number. It’s 0.000 a lot of zeros and there’s a one at the end. And the only way that that one disappears, and you know your probability of success is zero and you will not succeed, is if you give up. Once you give up, it’s game over and your probability of success, you’re not going to be successful. So, I try to keep that in mind and I encourage people, and that’s been told to me as well as something that’s been helpful for people to think about. So, when you try to do something and you know it’s hard, and it might seem impossible, but as long as they try, one out of a million is not zero.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mike Massimino
My website is probably a good place, MikeMassimino.com. You can reach out to me there. There’s a way to contact me through there if you’re interested in doing that. If they’re interested in following me around social media, I was the first guy to tweet from space, so I’m on Twitter @Astro_Mike now, or X now, AstroMikeMassimino on Instagram and Facebook, Michael Massimino on LinkedIn. Those are ways you can get hold of me there.

And if you’re interested in learning more about these things we’ve talked about, Pete, for the folks out there, if they’re interested and they’re either developing their moonshots or succeeding at their moonshots, whatever they’re trying to do in life, at work, or at home, these are things that I’ve learned that have helped me, and I’d love to share them with you, as we have today, but also in the book if they’re so inclined. And that can be purchased just about anywhere, wherever you buy your books, at your local bookstore, or Amazon, Barnes & Noble, whatever. It’s available there, Moonshot is available there.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mike Massimino
Don’t give up. Embrace the challenge. Embrace change. Things are constantly changing. I talk about that, too, in the book, and knowing when to pivot. But embrace the challenges, embrace the change, remember you’re not in it alone, and don’t give up. If it’s tough, it means it’s worthwhile. Don’t give up.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mike, thank you. This has been a treat. And I wish you many more fun moonshots.

Mike Massimino
Thanks, Pete. You as well.