1190: How to Get Off to a Great Start with Your New Manager with Dina Denham Smith

Pete Mockaitis
Dina, welcome!

Dina Denham Smith
Thank you. Good to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be chatting with you. And you wrote a lovely piece in the Harvard Business Review about “The Keys to Succeeding Under a New Manager.” Could you share with us what prompted you to think the world needs this article?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, a couple things, really. There’s a lot written about and written for leaders when they have a new leadership position, like the first 90 days, right? It’s a classic. It’s been around for forever. There’s all this guidance that exists for leaders how to hit the ground running.

But what I noticed is there was very little guidance for people who have a new leader and how they can make the most of the transition. And, you know, concurrently, I also noticed in my client base, and then the research backed it up, it just felt like people were getting new managers all the more frequently.

And as I dug into this, sure enough, they are. And it’s for a couple of different reasons that have kind of become like they’re sort of on velocity now. Like, one, there’s more restructurings. So there’s just like a lot more change happening in organizations.

And then the second thing that’s happening, and it’s, really, I think, it’s such a shame, honestly, is the leadership failure rate is really high. And that is because they’re really not given that much guidance or support when they take on a new role with new scope.

And so the turnover amongst leaders, really, at all levels, is pretty high. So you take these two things together, and what it means for a lot of folks is they’re getting new managers more frequently than ever before.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, good eye observing things with clients and the research. And what I think is so interesting and useful about that is it’s happening frequently and yet it can really be a tremendous opportunity as opposed to, I don’t know, a big ball of uncertainty and anxiety, “And now what do I do?”

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, I would say it’s both-and, you know, because it’s almost like the devil you know, right? And for some folks, they’ve developed really strong, like long-standing relationships with their managers, and it’s a really sad event when they discover that, like, “Oh, no, she’s leaving,” or, “He’s leaving. And what does that mean for me?”

Other folks, right, if they haven’t really worked for someone great, could be relieved. And many folks are just kind of, like, beaten down. But, oftentimes, what I see happening, too, is that people kind of go into this holding pattern where, as opposed to being like, “This is a huge inflection point, and there’s a lot of things that I can do to make the most of it.”

They kind of go in more into passive, like, “Let’s wait and see how this works out” mode. And that, I think, is the biggest opportunity lost because there is a lot of uncertainty. And when there is uncertainty in change, it’s hard and there’s opportunity.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really cool. So the “Let’s wait and see,” it’s interesting because, in a world of much tumult, reorganization, chaos, that seems like a totally sensible, rational, natural response, like, “Okay, well, before I get too, you know, invested, committed, because who knows, maybe this person’s going to be gone in a couple months as well.”

Dina Denham Smith
Totally.

Pete Mockaitis
So it’s a totally natural response. And yet, it does sort of squander that opportunity that you have in front of you. So can you lay it out for us, what are some of the top things you recommend we do when we find ourselves under a new manager?

Dina Denham Smith
I think the first thing is to almost, like, just clear your internal emotional space. So, for example, if you have worked for someone for a long time and you’re really sad and feeling extremely exposed, this happened to one of my clients, kind of recognizing all those emotions that you’re feeling.

And the reason to do that is so that you don’t actually bring them into the next situation. Like, there could be like a little mini grieving process, and you need to, like, recognize it so that how you’re feeling doesn’t unintentionally color how you show up with the next person.

The other thing that I think is really important to think about, and this actually just happened. I was interviewing the team members for a new leader that I was working with.

And one of them shared with me, he was like, “You know what? I was totally dreading her arrival because I’d heard all of these, like, horrible things about what a driver she was and a micromanager and all this stuff.” He’s like, “And you know what? It turns out she’s the most supportive leader I’ve actually had to date at this company.”

And so, you know, reputations oftentimes precede us, especially if the person is coming from someplace else within your company. But recognize that you really need to make up your own mind about this person, in part, because that reputation might be outdated. And secondly, it reflects what other people think, right? And they’ve contributed to that situation, too.

So I think the first thing is to just kind of really, like, clear your heart and your mind and be open to what could be a great new relationship. Like, oftentimes, we think about what we’re losing or the ways things could go sideways, right?

Our survival brain, like, kicks in high gear when things get uncertain and we don’t know what’s going to happen and, “Who’s this person going to be? And how’s this going to work?” Like, we think about all the ways that could go wrong. It’s just what we do. It’s how we’ve sort of stayed alive historically.

And you really need to intentionally kind of like toggle your brain into the other mode. And I’m not talking about, like, forced like Pollyanna. I’m talking about, like, also seeing the opportunity in this situation.

So maybe asking yourself like, you know, “What could be the silver lining here?” or, “What might be the opportunity here? How could this maybe go better than I even think it could? What could be in this for me?”

I mean, there’s a million questions that you could use to help yourself see what your brain might not naturally be seeing. So I’d start there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot, yeah. And those are great prompts to get the wheels turning and the brain pointed in some new directions. To back up a bit, when you mentioned a grieving process, what could that look like? And how do you know when you’ve grieved enough?

Dina Denham Smith
Well, grieving can look like a bunch of different things, right? The sort of the five stages of grief is really well known, but they don’t necessarily show up in that order for all individuals.

So you might feel really sad or you might feel angry or you might just feel like bowled over and resigned. You might feel like a lot of different things that suggest, you know, you’re just, you feel like there’s been a loss. And there legitimately might be, right?

It’s sad when somebody you’ve had a wonderful relationship with moves on to another opportunity or finally takes the chance to retire or is asked to leave. I think there can be some legitimate loss there.

And, at the same time, we concurrently have to accept, like, the reality of the situation. And so legitimizing and validating the way you feel and accepting what now is are equally important processes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, a great perspective for you sort of resetting things, getting your mind and emotional slate clear and good and not taking too much outside influence from the chatter and about the reputation or whatever, forming your own views. Where do we go from there?

Dina Denham Smith
What I’ve seen is that, sometimes, a new manager arrives on the scene quickly. There is a very smooth transition, “You know, Jane will be departing and Joe is coming in,” or whatever the case may be. Other times, especially at the more senior levels, there is a notable gap.

So one of my current clients, she’s now been without a manager for four months. Another one I’ve worked with is finally getting her leader after eight. So these interim situations can last anywhere between days, weeks, months, because hiring is a very, very expensive decision, and at more senior levels, they want to get it right.

And so there can be this sort of limbo period where there’s an interim structure. You have this interim leader. And it can be this time where you think to yourself, “Well, why invest? Like, they’re not going to be my leader anyhow.” But, again, that would be another missed opportunity because there’s a couple things.

One, it’s a new person in your internal network that you can invest in. And you never know where these strong relationships will, ultimately, take you. They might have a new perspective on some of the situations you’re trying to resolve. They might have strengths your former manager didn’t that you can learn from.

They will, undoubtedly, have a different network of relationships at the company that they might be able to tap for you. And so, by all means, invest in that relationship and make the most of it because it certainly can’t hurt.

And sometimes – guess what – that interim is appointed head. So, yet one more of my clients right now, I literally just started working with her, last week we had our kickoff session, and she was the interim head of a product department for six months while they looked for the chief product officer.

And you know what happened? They discovered she completely stepped into that role and she was doing great. And every external candidate they looked at, they stacked the external candidate up against her, and they, ultimately, decided, “You know what? We don’t actually want to bring in somebody. She can do it. Let’s get her a coach so she can really step into this really powerfully and support that transition.”

So folks on her team who were just like idling and waiting for that new person to arrive, it’s a shock to the system, right? So, by all means, invest in that relationship. It will only serve you.

And I think the other thing to do while you’re in this limbo period is you no longer have this set structure, which gives you a lot more latitude to be reaching out across the organization.

So we all know you don’t want to go over your head’s boss, right? Like, they’ve got certain sort of like sacred relationships that they wanted to, like, run point on. Well, they’re gone. You can step into those voids and really strengthen your internal network. So, again, you know, I’m like be on your front foot here. Don’t wait this out.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s a great reminder, interim often becomes permanent. And even if they don’t, I mean, it’s a pretty cool opportunity to get to know someone who’s apparently flexible and trusted to drop into places across the organization.

So, yeah, that’d be pretty nifty if you’re one of the few who really seem to care and, you know, pour forth attention and effort into that relationship. That’s pretty memorable.

Dina Denham Smith
Absolutely. I don’t know, you never know where these things are going to go. And so I think you sort of like making the most out of every day. Make the most out of this relationship, too. It could be so positive not just in a self-serving way, but you might have like a great new colleague at the end of this.

Pete Mockaitis
And within this particular context, investing in the relationship, what does that practically mean?

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, practically, it means helping them come up to speed really quickly. They’ve just been dropped in. They’re now working two jobs, this interim person. They’ve got their previous team, and now they’ve got sort of these additional new reports.

And they maybe they’ve assumed the entire team, maybe they’ve assumed just a few folks, but whatever the case may be, like, their load has just been increased because of this other, you know, leader departure.

So do what you can to make it really easy for them to sort of assume a managerial role for you. Bring them up to speed on, you know, your scope. What are your key projects? What are you working on? What are some of the problems that you’re sort of working through and how you’re solving them?

Help them understand the snapshot version, like, what you do, what you’re about, and the things that you’re working on that are going well. Where you’ve got challenges that you aren’t able to entirely meet and you need help, bring them in as a resource.

They’ll have a different perspective. They’ll have different ideas, different resources at their disposal that might help you solve something in a new or more effective way. So that would be one thing.

And the second thing that’s important, especially if you’re coming up on a performance cycle, is your manager has just departed for whatever reason and so has most of your performance history. And this new leader is now in charge of doing your performance review.

Well, the very best thing that you can do is tee them up. And I’m not talking about being duplicitous and only giving them the highlights, but giving them sort of history and everything that they need to do that review in a balanced way. Again, it’s just about making it easy.

I had one client, this is the one actually who’s been in this interim situation until recently for eight months. And she had six managers over six years, like it really was a revolving door.

And so we developed a strategy, probably, I don’t know, four months ago, around this performance review cycle that was coming up. And she helped the general counsel understand all that she was doing, her scope, her strength, all of it.

And it turns out she got her largest raise and her largest stock bonus ever in percentage terms. So these things can work out incredibly well as long as you put yourself in the driver’s seat.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, it’s so funny, well, you mentioned an opportunity. I mean, it’s quite tangibly an opportunity right there, you know, fabulous review and money stuff flowing, I guess. But I’m thinking just about in terms is the very human place that person in the new role finds themselves.

And it’s just like, “You know what? You’re the only person who made my review easy. And I really appreciate that. So, not to be too flippant about it, but I just get the impression you’re really on top of things and, generally, great, and you’ve given me a lot of facts. So, yeah, how about we’re just going to go ahead and give you an awesome review?”

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, when people make our lives easy, we like them more. And when we like people more, we act like we like them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you know, it’s true. It sounds simple, but I think it’s overlooked and it’s very true and powerful. You had a nice little take on – I love your phrase – in terms of figuring out how they work and operate quickly. And we’ve had Mary Abbajay on the show, talking about some managing-up principles which could be quite transformational.

And you’ve got a great phrase here, “I’ve always found it useful, when working with someone new, to discuss operating preferences early.” That sounds like a great way to take any awkwardness or discomfort, like, “Wait, what are we talking about and why?”

It’s like, “Oh, this is what we’re talking about and why. And you what? You’re right. That does make sense.” So what are some of those operating preferences you want to check through?

Dina Denham Smith
And I would say, you can have this conversation with an interim head. And then, further, once the permanent person comes along, this is paramount because what, oftentimes, happens is there’s this like drag. Like, transitions have this drag.

Everybody’s feeling each other out, trying to figure out like, “What matters, you know? How is this going to go?” And, meanwhile, you can really just hit it on the head. And it’s about, “How can we work most effectively together? Like, help me get to know you.”

So let’s just play this through. You have a new leader, a new manager. Very early on, rather than trying to read the tea leaves, use some of your one-on-one time to say, “Hey, I’d really like to get to know you better, how you like to work. Would you mind if I ask you just a few questions?” People love being asked questions. They’ll say, “Sure.”

And then I would ask questions like this, “Like, you know a little bit about my scope and what I’m doing. Like, are there certain areas of my business or my work you really want more visibility into? Let’s talk about, like, where you want me to just tell you what’s going on? And where do you want to be part of the decision?”

So you’re really like just hitting the head on like, “Where do you want visibility? Let’s talk about decision-making. When there’s a problem happening, one of the things I’m, like, working with, do you want to know about that problem, like, early on, or do you just want me to come to you once I’ve figured it out and tell you how I solved it? How do you like to communicate?”

“It can get really like mechanical. If I really need you, like should I email with, like, a special subject line? Do you prefer a text, a Slack? Like, let’s talk about how you most prefer to communicate and what your best channels are. What are your pet peeves? Like, if I do it, what’s going to drive you crazy?” So just asking.

And this speeds everything up for both you and your manager in terms of forming a really positive and constructive working relationship. It’s not about becoming best friends. It’s about really working together, like efficiently, productively, positively. And you can just get under the hood and ask a few questions and get there a whole lot more quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and to  your point before, that we like it when people make things easy. This is one  of the best ways to do just that. Like, “What you mean by easy might be different than what I mean by easy.” So just get right to it.

Dina Denham Smith
Exactly. And, again, most leaders, really, and I primarily work with leaders, so I know this to be true. They love when people are like, “How do you like to work? Like, let’s get into this so that  we can together hit the ground running.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely.

Dina Denham Smith
Very few people ask their leader that. And it’s like, I don’t know, it’s just, I think once you hear it and internalize it, you’re like, “Oh, yeah, of course,” right? But, oftentimes, we just don’t think about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, you say very few, and I believe it. I’ve asked audiences about this. I talked with Mary Abbajay about it. Her estimate is like less than one or two percent based on what she sees in her audiences and research work. So, yeah, it’s a huge opportunity in terms of differentiating quickly, and it’s just delightful for everybody. So, yeah, go for it.

Dina Denham Smith
Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Dina, tell me, any other key things you want to mention in this situation that folks should know before we hear about your favorite things?

Dina Denham Smith
Well, I think one of the things that can also go overlooked in this situation is some of the team level dynamics that oftentimes occur when there’s a leadership transition. So whenever there’s a transition, as we’ve talked about, uncertainty increases.

Well, you’re not the only one who’s gone into sort of survival mode, like, “What’s going to happen to me? How is this going to work out?” And, oftentimes, things can get a little bit political for a bit.

There can be, like, territoriality. The leadership levels, I always call like a “Game of Thrones.” Like, people can get into sort of like land grabbing and it can get, like, just a little goofy with peers.

My best advice is to not play that game. Be aware that these politics are happening, but don’t play it. Instead, take an approach of meeting with your peers and trying to collaborate with them. And the reason for this is twofold.

When your new leader arrives, if they see a team where there’s, like, a lot of politics, first off, it’s really obvious. And the more fragmentation or competitiveness they see, or confusion they see in their team, the more scrutiny it invites, right, because you have just raised that new leader’s stress level.

Like, “All is not well here. Like, there’s infighting, there’s some unfortunate sort of like relationship strains, like roles and responsibilities aren’t clear.” That raises their stress about the health of the team, which naturally then invites them to take a much closer look at, like, “What’s going on here?”

You can really differentiate yourself by, as much as possible, trying to establish strong collaborative relationships around you with your peers. So talking with them one on one, like about any sort of overlaps or lack of clarity or alignments or just how you can more work together more effectively, that can really set you apart when, oftentimes, people’s response to this situation is a little bit more selfish.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well said. Okay. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dina Denham Smith
It’s from Maya Angelou. And she said, “People will not remember what you said, but they will remember how you made them feel.”

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dina Denham Smith
I absolutely love, and I go back often to a really groundbreaking study and finding from Matthew Lieberman, who’s a neuroscientist out of UCLA, and what he discovered, and this is years ago now.

But that social pain, when we’re left out or we’re criticized or something happens interpersonally that is hurtful for us, it lights up the same networks in our brain as physical pain. Meaning, if you get, like, punched in the face and you get criticized, your brain doesn’t really differentiate between these things.

And what’s so important about this in terms of how we think about how we relate to others and the workplace is understanding sort of like the impact of our actions and our words on other people, such that if we leave out a teammate, or if we’re hypercritical, or we gossip and people discover it, it hurts them as much as as physical pain.

And this triggers all of these unnecessary and unfortunate dynamics in the office that can really be prevented. And so I think it’s a really meaningful thing. And I hadn’t thought about this before, but it very much connects to that quote I initially shared, right, about people won’t remember what you say, but they will remember how you feel. And if you hurt someone, it’s a slow road to repair.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. And a favorite book?

Dina Denham Smith
I think, probably my all-time favorite is Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning, which I’m sure most people are familiar with, but I think it’s just profound the idea of, like, we’ve got this millisecond in between stimulus and response. And that millisecond, we can change our lives with it every day.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Dina Denham Smith
My dishwasher?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a good one, yeah. And a favorite habit?

Dina Denham Smith
My habit is also my hobby. I’m a passionate equestrian and I ride a few times a week, and it’s like my silver bullet for all that ails me in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really connect and resonate, they quote it back to you often?

Dina Denham Smith
I think, one, and this is me, well, it’s, oftentimes, said in a leadership context, but I actually think it generalizes to most of us, and it’s that leadership is an inner game.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dina Denham Smith
Two places. LinkedIn, I am Dina Denham Smith. Denham is spelled not like the jeans, but D-E-N-H-A-M. And then my website is DinaDSmith.com. And those are the best places.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dina Denham Smith
Treat every day like a new day. So, start your day thinking about, “How can I make this one just one percent better than the day before? What could I try or do differently or repeat because it worked so well?” But just being intentional.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. All right. Well, Dina, thank you.

Dina Denham Smith
Thank you.