Pete Mockaitis
Mary, welcome!

Mary Anderson
Thank you so much, Pete. I’m so excited to be here. I’m excited to have a great conversation. And hello to all the listeners out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I am excited, too. We are talking about The Happy High Achiever. That sounds like something I’d like to be, and many of our listeners would like to be. You’ve worked with many folks in the zone of high achievers who are happy and not so happy. Could you give us, perhaps, one of your most surprising and fascinating discoveries you’ve made while working with this population and researching the book?

Mary Anderson
That’s a great question. Well, I think, really, what prompted me to write the book was the surprising thing that I came upon after working. I was working in the financial district in Boston. This was actually many years ago, I had the idea for the book, and I would have these amazing high-achieving patients coming in. So, successful business professionals, doctors, lawyers, grad students, just amazingly brilliant, talented.

And then they would sit on my therapy couch across from me, and really candidly, courageously describe struggling with self-doubt, worry, perfectionism, anxiety, and burnout. And that’s what really was so surprising to me was how much they were really struggling with even just feeling like an imposter sitting in meetings, even if they had the credentials, or even if they had experience or the talent.

And so, that really helped me realize, “Wow, there’s these amazing high-achieving people out there who are not enjoying their excellence.” And that’s what really prompted me to write the book, and it was really that surprising kind of discovery all those years ago that now inspired The Happy High Achiever to now be in the world.

It really motivated me to do the work to help put a book in the world, to share science-based actionable strategies and skills, to help these ambitious people who are amazing but struggling. And I wanted to give them specifically tailored strategies that they could use in their jam-packed schedules because they are busy people. So, that’s really what my aim was for the book.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s quite a turn of a phrase, not enjoying their excellence, not only because it’s alliterative, which I love.

Mary Anderson
Me as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, it’s kind of haunting and rings true. Like, we would imagine from the outside looking in, “You’re on top of the world! That’s got to feel amazing!” And yet, when you look in, and it’s like, “Well, you might think it would feel amazing.” but it sure doesn’t.” So, can you, this is probably maybe a whole other podcast conversation, but what’s that all about, Dr. Mary Anderson? Like, what’s getting in the way?

Mary Anderson
Awesome question. So, for this, I would say the approach I use is cognitive behavioral therapy, so CBT. It’s a science-backed approach for the treatment of anxiety and depression. And what it teaches us is that thoughts, feelings, and behaviors all directly impact each other. And the goal of CBT is to help people feel better, so we target their thoughts and their behaviors to help them feel better.

And so, why are people feeling so anxious, so overwhelmed, so worried? We can point to those two-pronged reasons of cognition and behavior, right? So, their thoughts or self-talk, so how they’re thinking about themselves, the world, and other people; and their behaviors, so their actions and their choices that they’re making in interacting in the world. So, that’s, really, what I target.

So, what this is all about is that often their thoughts are relentlessly self-critical, so they’re very hard on themselves, but not in a helpful way that you would think like, “Oh, I’m just, you know, keeping my edge there.” Actually, there’s a tipping point where if it’s negatively skewed where they’re really being self-critical, they’re being really hard on themselves in a really unhelpful way, their negative self-talk, that relentless negative self-talk, and then also relentless pace.

So, in terms of their behaviors, they have a relentless pace. So, they’re not implementing regular self-care that is necessary to provide the energy for sustained happiness and high achievement. So, it’s issues with their thoughts, their self-talk, and their behaviors that are creating this really unfortunate situation of they are high achieving, but in terms of how they feel, they don’t feel good. They feel anxious, worried, overwhelmed.

So, that’s at the very root of what’s going on, and that’s why I help target improving and optimizing patients’ thoughts, their self-talk, and their behaviors, and that’s what helps them feel better and actually perform at their best.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say the pace, do you just mean doing a lot of things and not resting? Or what are kind of like the problematic behaviors there?

Mary Anderson
Great question. So, the relentless pace I talk about is often to help people understand that ambition itself is not a bad thing. Ambition is great. I think that’s a great quality to have. It’s that when people aren’t taking time to rest, and I have this acronym I use SELF, so self-care, right? We just need to make sure that as we are going into the world as these ambitious people, aspiring to be our best, that we are implementing the necessary self-care so that we can be our best, so that we have the energy necessary to be high-performing in the short term and to be our most excellent self in the long term.

Because, high achievers, we’re busy, right? We have jam-packed schedules. So, I often start talking about self-care with my patients, and they’ll be like, “Dr. A, I don’t have time for self-care,” because they’re thinking, which a lot of people do.

It’s kind of this myth out there that self-care means needing to take two-hour long bubble baths or go on week-long meditation retreats or buy yourself expensive treats, and that’s really not what’s necessary and it’s not what I’m talking about. When I talk about self-care, it just means taking good care of yourself on a regular basis so that you can feel and be your best.

So, I have that acronym of SELF, so it’s nice and memorable, and again, the four science-based self-care fundamentals that people can prioritize to get their best bang for their buck. These people are busy. If I’m asking them, “Okay, you’re already overwhelmed, your overextended schedule, I’m now going to ask you to add in lengthy, complicated self-care behaviors.” Is that going to work? No, right? It’s just not, it’s not possible.

So, I want to keep self-care doable so that we keep doing it, right? So, I teach them the four self-care fundamentals and help them really problem-solve how to implement that within their lives, and that’s what’s going to fuel them so that they can feel their best and perform at their best. And I’m happy to go through that self-care if you want to.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now we can’t resist an acronym, Mary. SELF, lay it on us.

Mary Anderson
Okay, SELF. So, S is for sleep, and I can’t stress enough just how essential sleep is. So, as adults, we want to aim for seven to nine hours of sleep a night, and we can just kind of know instinctually, right? It’s hard to feel and be our best if we’re exhausted all the time. But, also, research shows that there’s absolutely a negative impact to chronic lack of sleep. So, we know that it can negatively impact things like memory, attention, concentration, decision-making skills.

But, conversely, good night’s sleep, so, again, really getting that seven to nine hours of sleep a night can help promote things and have a positive impact on things like problem-solving skills, productivity, decision-making, so many amazing benefits. So, if you want to be a high achiever, you got to get that seven to nine hours of sleep a night. It’s one of the very first things I assess when my patients come in to see me, “How much sleep are you getting?” And if they’re chronically getting less than seven, they’re having a hard time.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Mary, maybe I’m getting too detailed here, but I’m a big lover of sleep. Are we thinking seven to nine hours of actually asleep as per your Oura ring or Fitbit or Garmin Watch wearable? Or seven to nine hours in the bed with your eyeballs closed?

Mary Anderson
Well, ideally, it actually means seven to nine hours of sleep, and I help people who do struggle with sleep. So, if they’re in bed trying to sleep and getting frustrated, we would actually say, you know, especially if it’s been, you know, people sometimes stay in bed 15-20 minutes, and they start getting frustrated that, “Oh, I’m not falling asleep, and now I have this big work meeting tomorrow.”

We actually encourage, “Get up. Get out of bed. Go do something really quieting. Just like make sure you’re staying in a dark room.” So, the issue is we don’t ever want to associate the bed with frustration, so it’s called stimulus control. So, you want to make sure the bed is just for sleep and sex only, and so if people are frustrated, “Get up and move out of bed.”

So, ideally, for what we call sleep efficiency, the ideal situation is when you are in bed, you go to bed. It might take a few minutes to go to sleep, but when your eyeballs are closed in bed, you’re sleeping. And then, once your eyeballs open, you get out of the bed. You’re not just staying there because, again, we want to really optimize that association cognitively, where the bed is actually where you’re going to be sleeping.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood.

Mary Anderson
So, that’s kind of the technical explanation of it. But, yeah, seven to nine hours. It’s really helpful for people. So, that’s the S of SELF. It’s sleep. Seven to nine hours. E is for exercise, and I think we all know the importance of exercise for physical health, but also for mood and stress management. Exercise, any type of physical activity, and I encourage, keep it doable. Do something you like. So, walking is great.

I think sometimes people vastly underestimate the benefits of walking, but exercise is one of the most efficient, effective ways of decreasing cortisol, our stress hormone. So, if we can aim to get at least 30 minutes of some type of physical movement in our day, it’s so incredible for managing our stress and that means preventing burnout.

Burnout is really chronic stress that occurs over time that’s not being managed. So, the best prevention of burnout is to ensure that you’re managing your stress along the way. And, again, one of the best ways to do that is to get physical activity in. L is look forward, and this one is the one that surprises people sometimes because they haven’t heard of this one.

L is look forward to pleasant activities. So, our goal, our mission, if we choose to accept it, which I hope we do, is to aim for at least one pleasant activity a week, okay? And that’s because so many high achievers, they’re just work, home, work, home, work, home, and things can start to feel really stressful if we don’t have anything to look forward to.

So, just the anticipation of some something positive is powerful. So, keep it doable. Again, I encourage people, plan a meetup with a friend on a Saturday, book a massage, have concert tickets for Sunday, or even something even smaller, like, make sure you queue up your favorite Netflix episode, or plan to get your favorite takeout on Friday.

And then what you do is you just remind yourself during the week. Maybe Tuesday is going to be a long, stressful day. You know, you have meetings all day, back-to-back. You have deadlines coming up and you’re like, “You know what, on Saturday, I’m going to make sure that I,” whatever it is that you want to do.

Just plan something that you know you’re going to look forward to and that is not about productivity.

Because so many of us, high achievers, we love to be efficient and productive, but we need to give our brains a break and have something to look forward to that’s not just about productivity. It’s just about something pleasant, because, again, that provides a powerful mood boost throughout the week and then when you’re enjoying the activity.

So, SEL, and then F is fuel.

And here the aim is to fuel our mind and body with good nutrition and hydration. So, making sure we’re drinking enough water. Our cognitive performance really declines if we’re dehydrated at all, research has shown that. Also, we know nutrition is important, right? So, fruits, veggies, lean protein, of course, important for physical health, but I think sometimes people don’t recognize for cognitive performance, it’s so important.

And so, I’ll ask people like, “Have you ever tried to concentrate when you’re hungry or thirsty?” And people are like, “Oh, yeah, it’s really hard.” But just making the time during the day where I have so many of my patients, right now most of my patients are probably ladies, like in their 30s, high achieving, and they’re like early to mid-career, and so they are working hard and they’re like, “Dr. A, I don’t even have time for lunch.”

And I said, “We have to fuel your brain. You know, our brain runs on glucose. We need to have some kind of fuel.” So, I have them, you know, ideally, it’s real food, but if not, get a protein bar or even a protein shake. That one’s good, and like that’s another pro tip where if they’re like, “Well, I can’t eat at the meeting,” but they’re in back-to-back meetings, have a protein shake in a mug. No one’s going to know it’s a protein shake, but you’re getting nutrition and you’re getting that nourishment that you need to fuel yourself.

And also, for F, for fuel, I talk about fueling your mind with some quiet. How often do we unplug? As high achievers, we’re constantly kind of just inundated with information and barraged with problems to solve. So, fuel also means fuel your mind with quiet. So, that means spending some time in nature, doing some meditation. I use the Calm app. I listen to the Daily Jay with Jay Shetty every morning. Or journaling or just doing deep breathing. Just taking three deep breaths is shown to calm your nervous system so that you can feel better and you’re going to perform better when your nervous system is calmer.

So, SELF, sleep, exercise, look forward, and fuel. Those are the four science-based self-care fundamentals that if you prioritize those as a high achiever, that is going to absolutely help you function at your best, function optimally, so you can be a happy high achiever that you deserve to be.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And over on the self-talk side of things, I’m curious if you could share a couple things you’ve heard in the self-talk realm that are particularly memorable and haunting, as well as typical and highly illustrative of what we mean by problematic self-talk that’s happening all the time?

Mary Anderson
Absolutely. Okay. So, for this, I actually have a term that I’ve coined. It’s called the Troublesome Trifecta. So, the Troublesome Trifecta are the three most unhelpful types of thoughts. We call them cognitive distortions in psychology. So, the three most unhelpful cognitive distortions that so often plague high achievers, and they’re obstacles to enjoying their excellence.

And, really what they do, Pete, is they needlessly ratchet up the stress and anxiety in a challenging situation, or even an everyday situation. It needlessly ratchets up the stress and anxiety, makes it harder to feel and be our best.

So, there’s three that I’ve found are really challenging for high achievers, and it’s specific to high achievers with anxiety. I’ve found from well over a decade of helping clients, these are the three cognitive distortions that are going to be most problematic. First, all-or-nothing thinking. This is so central to high achievers. So, all-or-nothing thinking is thinking in extremes or absolutes. So, it’s, “I must be perfect or I’m a failure.” How I’ve heard it in something that was really haunting, when you said that, I was like, “Yep, I got you on this one.” I’m like, “I got one.” This idea from patients where they’ll say things like, “Dr. A, everyone needs to be totally blown away by my project.” That is so much pressure.

It’s so much pressure to think everyone needs to be totally blown away by my project. That puts so much pressure. I call all-or-nothing thinking pressure cooker thinking because it puts needless pressure. And then what happens, I notice with a lot of high achievers, they start really tying their self-worth to their achievements, appearance, or performance.

They think that they need to prove that they’re worthy or valuable as people, and it makes them terrified, Pete, like they’re terrified of making mistakes or ever looking less than the best. And that, really, perfectionism that’s rooted in the all-or-nothing thinking, it limits them. Perfectionism limits people because they’re terrified to make mistakes. They want to look flawless. So, what that means really concretely, they won’t go out and try new things because they’re not going to immediately, you know, look adept at them.

Also, there’s what I call perfectionism-fueled procrastination, which is they start making the presentation or project or to-do item so monstrous, such a Leviathan, you know, this behemoth in their mind that it needs to be perfect, that they get overwhelmed. Again, it’s that thought feeling, behaviors, they start thinking, “This needs to be perfect,” so they feel really overwhelmed, and then behaviorally, what happens is they procrastinate. They don’t even start because they’re so afraid that it won’t be exactly right or good enough.

And, again, they’re really tying their worth to the outcome, to their achievements. So, the solution for this one is it’s not just like acquiescing to like mediocrity and stagnation, because patients are like, “Great, you just want me to become lazy.” And I say, “No.” The solution, thankfully, is excellence, and this is the first of the eight essentials in my book, The Happy High Achiever. Strive for excellence, not perfection.

And what that means is it allows for both high achievement and our humanity. We’re going to strive for our best while also realizing we’re human. We will make mistakes. Of course, we can do the work so we’re not making careless mistakes, but we’re human. We’re going to have, you know, flaws and fumbles and we’re going to fail.

And to know, really know that we can learn from that, so we don’t have to be terrified, and most importantly, to know that any mistake you make never, in any way, detracts from your worth as a human being, that we have inherent, unconditional worth as humans. And if people really embrace that, if they accept that as truth, that’s when they’re going to feel and be their best because they’re not so afraid anymore.

So, that’s all-or-nothing thinking. That is huge. It is like rampant in the high achievers with anxiety population that I help. So, all-or-nothing thinking, I really try to raise patients’ awareness about that cognitive distortion so that they can catch it and conquer it.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you give us a couple more examples of what that self-talk sounds like in terms of verbiage for all-or-nothing thinking? Because what I loved about that was, something like all-or-nothing thinking in terms of very broadly, like, “Oh, I either need to be perfect or I’m worthless,” right? So, okay. But then you put that note that’s in the context of a presentation, “This presentation needs to blow away everybody. It just needs to.” And so, I thought that was handy. So, we have all-or-nothing thinking applied in a specific context, and it’s still plenty troublesome. So, can we hear a couple more articulations of all-or-nothing thinking?

Mary Anderson
Absolutely. It can be things like, “I’ll never get this done,” “I’m always behind,” like anything where they’re really like just nitpicking themselves in this really extreme way. The other thing is even just they’ll say things like, “Well, now it’s ruined.” Like it’s this extreme kind of thinking, and it just makes you feel awful. So, if you’re like, “Now the product is ruined,” they feel awful and, behaviorally, it keeps them stuck. So, cognitive distortions make us feel worse and keep us stuck behaviorally.

And the other one is sometimes I’ll hear people say like, “I can’t do it, Dr. A. I can’t do it.” That’s very all or nothing. The truth, usually, it’s not that they can’t do it. So, they’ll be like, “Dr. A, I have this big presentation, or my boss wants me to speak at the meeting, and I’m going to have to speak for like 20 minutes in front of everyone. I can’t do it. I hate public speaking. I can’t do it. I’m going to stumble over my words.”

And their big kind of distortion that keeps them stuck is, “I can’t do it. I can’t do it.” But when we do what I call poking holes, so we ask questions to really question the veracity, the accuracy of their thought, which a cognitive distortion is based on faulty beliefs, assumptions, misconceptions. So, when we start to poke holes by asking questions, the truth usually is it’s not that they can’t do it, it’s that they don’t want to do it. They don’t like public speaking, but they can do it.

We can help them prepare and practice and then do their best. So, they can do it. Like, the can’t, it’s more so they don’t want to do it, but that we can find ways to help them be able to do what they need to do, and that’s called creating, I call it new and improved self-talk. It’s creating a balanced, helpful thought that moves people forward.

So, the all or nothing, can’t, never, totally ruined, anytime you hear that, absolutely, “And it was absolutely horrible.” Well, most things in life are not black and white, it’s gray. And so, that’s kind of the more practical application. It’s not just, “I have to be perfect or I’m a failure.” So, I think that’s a great distinction that you’ll find much more nuanced when you’re bringing that all or nothing to the workplace, and being able to, again, raise your awareness.

Because once we have awareness, then we can take action and start really, again, what I call poking holes and choosing to focus on a more helpful thought that moves us forward, not just keeps us stuck like that cognitive distortion well.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that so much, and as we’re talking, I think I caught myself doing all-or-nothing thinking and poking holes just this morning driving to the office, I was like, “Oh, I’ve got a lot of meetings on my calendar today but I didn’t sleep very well. I don’t know if I’m going to make it.” And it was like, “What exactly do you mean by make it?”

Mary Anderson
Awesome job, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
“You know, Am I going to, like, enter a coma? Am I going to off myself?” It’s like, “No, no.” And it’s like, “And I guess what I mean is, I don’t know if I’ll be able to show up to all of my appointments in an effective capacity,” or, “No, I guess what I really mean is, I don’t know, I won’t be able to be perfect in all of my appointments.” And it was just sort of that conversation, like, “Well, you won’t be. I mean, you might say something dumb. You might ask Dr. Mary Anderson the exact same question two times in a row, which is like, ‘Uh, dude, I just answered that.’ And then we’ll edit it out, and so no one will know,” and that’ll be that.

“I am capable of showing up, not falling asleep, and making some kind of valuable conversational contribution in each of the day’s meetings. So, if that’s making it, then I am going to make it. I’ll just feel kind of tired and grumpy sometimes and that’s okay.”

Mary Anderson
Oh, Pete, I love it. Yes. So, you poked holes and you helped move yourself forward. And you hit on a point that I talk a lot about with people and it’s so, so brilliant. So much wisdom what you just said is that you will make it through the day. It’s just this day, you know, if you didn’t sleep as well, or if you have lots of meetings, that this day is different in a way. And so, that’s the difference. You just highlighted like, no pun intended, you highlighted perfectly the difference between perfectionism and striving for excellence.

So, perfectionism is the unrealistic expectation that we will almost be like automatons and every single day our best will be exactly the same. Is that possible? No. So, again, excellence and striving for excellence means we acknowledge our humanity. So, we still strive to be our best, right? We’re striving to be our best while also acknowledging as humans, as human beings, our best will differ by the day. So, if you have a good night’s sleep versus, if I have people who are dealing with jet lag.

So, if I have consultants and they’re flying all over the world, I’m like, “We have to take into account, if you just did a 15-hour flight, we can’t expect you to necessarily be at cognitive processing speed the same as if you’re at home and you’re getting solid eight-hour sleep every night.” So, our best will differ by the day. Or if they’re dealing with like the flu or romantic breakups, there’s things that happen because we’re human.

And so, so when we allow for those natural inherent variation of day-to-day, things start to feel easier. And just like you did, you helped yourself in your self-talk, say like, “Okay, I can do this.” You know, basically that’s what I heard, it’s like, “Okay, it’s not going to be perfect, but I can do this. I can make it through the day.” And so, it’s going to help you feel better, and actually that is going to help you perform even better. It’s just talking to yourself in that way, like, you would a friend.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, we got the all-or-nothing thinking. What else?

Mary Anderson
Okay, so number two of the Troublesome Trifecta is jumping to conclusions, and this kind of comes in two flavors. The first one is negative fortune telling, and this is when we predict something negative will happen even though it hasn’t happened. And this one sounds like, “It’s not going to go well, Dr. A,” or like, “Oh, my presentation is going to be awful,” or, “The project’s going to flop.” So, they’re predicting negative, but it hasn’t happened yet. And so, what’s that going to do in terms of how they feel? It makes them feel overwhelmed, nervous, anxious, and then, behaviorally, it does not help them prepare and be their best.

The other type of jumping to conclusions is mind reading. I think we’ve all done this, when we assume we know what people are thinking about us. So, people will be like, “Oh, Dr. A, they think I’m stupid.” Or I’ll hear things, this is very common, like, “Oh, my gosh, I misspoke in a meeting and now everyone thinks I’m incompetent.” Or even things like, “Oh, if I ask a question…”

So, real high achievers who are trying to be perfect will almost say things like, “Well, if I ask a question, people will think I’m incompetent.” No, you’re asking for clarification on a question because you care so much. You want to know more about whatever the project is that they’re describing or whatever finding or outcome they’re describing. So, people assume that people think that they’re incompetent, which is a major fear of high achievers, to be deemed incompetent or foolish is a huge fear.

Also, it can just be things like where they assume an interpretation. So, say you’re at your desk, right? And again, so I’m having a lot of clients who are like early 30s, they’re sitting at their desk, their boss will walk past them. Now maybe the boss usually says, “Hi” in the morning. Well, this morning, the boss didn’t say hello. So, they’re going straight into their negative self-talk or unhelpful self-talk, that cognitive distortion, like, “Well, my boss must be mad at me.”

And so, imagine if you’re assuming your boss is mad at you, how are you going to feel? Not good, right? And they get really stressed. And then, behaviorally, what that can just concretely look like is maybe in the afternoon meeting, they don’t speak up, they’re like, “Well, I don’t know why he’s mad at me. I don’t want to give him any more reason to be.” So, you see how that all goes.

But what if instead, and this is the solution to the mind reading, stay curious. There could absolutely be alternate explanations. Maybe the boss is rushing to her office to hop on a Zoom meeting. Maybe she’s not feeling well. Maybe she’s just thinking about something. She’s kind of lost in thought and just didn’t say hi that morning.

And so, if you can stay curious and say, “Huh, you know, I don’t know why,” and just say the facts, right? Predict neutral, I call it. Predict neutral. “I don’t know why she didn’t say hi. You know, I’ll go talk to her later today and see what’s going on.” And if they say that to themselves, if they can stay curious and just stick with the facts, we call it evidence-based thinking, if they can stick with the facts, they’re going to feel at least better, not as stressed, and then it won’t negatively impact their performance, their behaviors.

Okay, so that’s negative fortune-telling and mind reading. Super helpful to just stay curious. It’s never helpful to negative fortune-tell and just predict something negative is going to happen, or to predict that people are thinking badly of you if there’s no evidence to support that. So, that is jumping to conclusions.

And then the last of the Troublesome Trifecta are “should” statements. Oh, “should statements,” these are so ubiquitous. These are the ubiquitous for high achievers, this idea of like, “Dr. A, I should be able to handle all of this. I shouldn’t be so stressed. What’s wrong with me? I should be doing more. I should be like them.”

So, this idea comes up too with the “shoulds” often because it’s so judgmental of ourselves, and it can be towards others or situations as well. But high achievers I work with often are very self-critical, and I call it the comparison trap. They fall into this comparison trap where they’re comparing themselves to others, you know, colleagues, friends, and they’re like, “Well, look at what that person’s achieved.” Often, honestly, social media can really fuel that comparison trap. So, it’s really unhelpful with the social.

Social media can be used for good, for sure. But if people are looking at it and feeling less than, it can really promote feelings of like inadequacy, because they’ll say, “Dr. A, my friend just got a promotion,” or, “Look at the award that they’re doing.” They’re like, “Wow, they just gave a presentation at that conference. Like, you know, I’ve been on a panel before, but I’ve never been like a keynote speaker before. Look at what they’re doing.”

And so, even if – it’s really interesting, Pete – even if, because these are, you know, brilliant people, they can articulate, like intellectually, they can say, “I know, social media is a curated highlight reel of just the best moments of people’s lives.” But still, it’s still impacting them in terms of how they’re feeling about themselves, and behaviorally, it doesn’t help them perform at their best. They end up usually feeling really stuck.

And so, a question I’ll ask here is, because they’ll say like, even things like body image, so like, “I should look like her. Like, look at how put together she looks at that conference. She doesn’t even look nervous.” And so, if they’re struggling with anxiety, oftentimes they’ll look at other people, and be like, “They don’t look anxious.” Well, who knows actually what’s going on inside of them?

But they’ll say like, “I shouldn’t look anxious. I shouldn’t be so stressed. What’s wrong with me?” And I’ll say to them, “Would you ever say that to your friend? Would you ever tell a friend, ‘You really shouldn’t look so stressed. You really shouldn’t feel anxious, and you should be more like that person?’ Would you ever say that to a friend?” And they’re like, “Well, no.” I’m like, “Well, why?” “Because it’s mean.” But people will say really like cruel self-talk to themselves.

So, that’s a quick pro tip. Just a litmus test for people. If you notice you’re feeling stressed or if you’re feeling badly about yourself, ask yourself, “What am I telling myself?” And then ask yourself, “Would I say that to a friend?” If the self-talk that you are saying to yourself you wouldn’t say to a friend, it’s not helpful. So, in that moment think about “What would you tell a friend in that moment?”

And that’s just a really simple concrete strategy but I can’t tell you how powerful that can be in helping shift someone’s mindset to something more balanced and encouraging, and that’s when we’re going to feel and be our best.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. And “should” is tricky because there’s an implied standard. I had a friend say, “I should be able to keep the floor clean, but I was having trouble, so I just got a vacuum robot.” And I thought, I almost want to dig into that but he was excited to tell me about the vacuum robot, so we didn’t get into it. But it’s like, “Hmm, where is the standard coming from?” you know, just as a curiosity.

But I do the same thing to myself, and I’m thinking it’s like sometimes the standards have some level of validity, and sometimes they’re just nonsense, like, “Says who and why, huh?” Like, “Okay, we can just reject that standard entirely.” But other times, I’m thinking, like, “I have danced on both sides of a body mass index of 25 to be “overweight,” and then not, which is funny, because it’s, like, almost exactly 200 pounds is overweight for me at my height.

But it’s funny, so I’ll think, “Oh, I should not be overweight. I should eat less, weigh less, whatever.” And so, what’s interesting is like the body mass index of 25, I mean, it is population level, like we can debate that, but it has some level of validity like, “Yeah, generally, you know, when body mass indexes are like above this, there’s kind of more health problems tend to occur population-wide.” So, it’s like it has some level of validity as opposed to something I should just like cast off, it’s like, “Well, forget the body mass index. Like, you do you, Pete. Love that body!”

But I think your point about talking to yourself like a friend is really helpful. It’s like you wouldn’t say, “Yeah, you shouldn’t be overweight.” It’s like, “No, hey, I think it’s good that you are considering your health and keeping an eye on things and following some best practices. So, yeah. I guess the weigh-in today might be an indicator that it would be wise to put a little more attention on this kind of thing.” And that is more how I might talk to a friend, as opposed to, “You shouldn’t be overweight.” And so, that’s handy in and of itself.

Mary Anderson
Awesome job, Pete. Like, awesome, awesome example, and this is one that I help a lot of people with. They’ll be like, “Dr. A, I should be able to fit in my workouts even though I have a jam-packed schedule, but I should exercise.” And to your point, there really are things that are helpful for people to do, but when we “should” ourselves, it’s like we’re shaming ourselves almost.

If someone’s trying to shame themselves to go to the gym, is that going to work long-term? No. They found it just really won’t, and it’ll make people feel horrible about themselves. So, what I talk about, I talk about this in The Happy High Achiever, is when you notice you’re “should-ing” yourself, really know that that’s going to actually keep you stuck. It’s not going to be helpful. So just saying like, “I shouldn’t weigh a certain amount,” doesn’t actually promote proactive problem-solving, it’s not going to help promote healthy goal-setting and move you forward.

So, what I help people do is I decision-tree it out, so I ask them, “This thing you’re ‘should-ing’ about to yourself, is it something you want to do? Is it something you think would be helpful to do? Or are you saying you must do it maybe because of external pressure?” So, with the gym, you know, “I should be able to fit in these workouts. I should exercise.”

And I’ll say, and especially if they’re like, “Well, I should go to the gym,” and I’ll say, “Do you want to go to the gym?” And they’re usually really candid. I appreciate the candor, they’re like, “I do not want to go to the gym, Dr. A.” I’m like, “Okay.” So, just saying, “I should go to the gym,” isn’t going to be effective because they don’t want to, and then they’re shaming themselves about it. That’s not actually going to effectively lead to enhanced performance and behavior or meeting the actual ultimate goal we want for ourselves.

So, what we need to do is say, “Okay.” Then again, curiosity of “Why are you saying this to yourself?” So, I’ll say, “Okay, if you don’t want to, do you think it would be helpful to?” And they’re like, “Yeah, I do. I think it would be helpful to exercise.” “Okay, right? So, now we’re getting to the reality of the situation. Well, why do you think it would be helpful?”

And they’re like, “Well, it really does help me physically feel better. I do notice it helps me manage my stress. Mood-wise, I do notice like my mood is better. Not maybe before I go to the gym, but after. I do feel good I went. I’ve never regretted going to the gym.” “Okay.” And then I’ll say, “Is there a must in there?” And they’re like, “No, there’s not.” The must category is more like societal kind of influence about certain things.

Usually, people, it’s something that they think would be helpful, right? So, like your friend, it would be helpful if he could keep his floor clean, but there’s probably circumstances or reasons why he can’t. So, he was super smart and got himself a robot. That’s awesome, right? And if we can figure out how to move ourselves forward without the shame, that’s going to help us feel better.

And we know if people are happier, they’ve shown in abundant research, if people are happier, it fuels success. So, when we’re happier, when we have a positive mindset, that’s actually going to enhance our productivity, our performance, our efficiency, our creativity, our resilience. So, it really benefits us to be happier first, because you deserve to be, because you’re a human and you deserve to be happy, but also as people in the workplace who are striving to be high achievers, really know that if you can speak to yourself in a way that helps you cultivate a positive mindset, that helps in a positive, like a happiness feeling, that is actually going to play out, that it’s going to enhance your performance.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good to know. Well, now could you share a favorite quote?

Mary Anderson
“The greatest weapon against stress is our ability to choose one thought over another,” and it’s by William James.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you.

Mary Anderson
Yeah, I love it. William James, considered the father of American psychology. And I love that it highlights, as humans, we’re going to have thousands of thoughts a day. And it’s an important point that I really try to underline for people. Our goal is not to try to never have a cognitive distortion. That would be an impossible goal. We are humans, we’re going to have helpful thoughts, unhelpful thoughts on a continuum of helpfulness, right? So, we can’t expect ourselves to never have an unhelpful thought.

But what we can do is equip ourselves with these strategies to raise our awareness of when we’re thinking a less helpful thought, so those cognitive distortions again, Troublesome Trifecta, we’re all-or-nothing thinking, jumping to conclusions, and “should” statements. Really raise your awareness so you can take action.

We want to catch and conquer those cognitive distortions, and we can choose to focus our attention on a more helpful thought. And when we choose to focus our attention on more helpful thought, we’re going to feel better and it’s going to help us move forward behaviorally. So that’s one of my very favorite quotes.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mary Anderson
I challenge people, try to talk to yourself like you would a friend. If you’re in a hard moment, if it’s stressful, if you’re dealing with a challenging co-worker or boss, or you’re stressed out before a big meeting, really ask yourself, “What would I tell a friend in this moment?”

The more that we can speak to ourselves, so focusing our thoughts on a thought that something that we would tell a friend, it sounds simple, but again, the more you can be like a good friend to yourself, you are going to feel and be your best. So, that would be the call to action, really know that by speaking kindly to yourself, which sometimes high achievers balk at like, “Self-compassion, Dr. A., it’s not going to make me weak,” but I’m like, “Honestly, the more kind and compassionate you can be towards yourself, like you would a close dear friend, that is actually is what will help you excel. You will feel happier and you will be high achieving not only in the short term, but sustainably in the long term.”

And that’s the goal. We want to be happy high achievers, enjoying our excellence and putting our best out into the world. You can do it. I believe in everyone out there. You possess the power to be a happy high achiever. Start now. It’s worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you.