060: Rules for Rising Leaders with Pam Fox Rollin

Pete Mockaitis
Pam, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Pam Fox Rollin
Pete, it’s an absolute pleasure.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, I understand you’re in the San Francisco Bay Area, and I was there for six months, and it was lovely. What do you do for fun over there?

Pam Fox Rollin
I used to kayak and guide kayaking so that I wouldn’t work every single weekend before I had kids. Now, my fun is with my kids. They’re 10 and 14 and have all different sorts of activities, so we’d love being able to get outdoors in the Bay Area and just enjoy so much culture and learning here.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve really been digging, perusing through your book, 42 Rules for Your New Leadership Role. I was really enjoying so many pieces there, but maybe you could frame it up for us for starters and say “What have you observed are perhaps the mindset shift or the new thinking that folks need to take on when they’re moving from an individual contributor type role to more of a managerial role?”

Pam Fox Rollin
Absolutely, Pete. I think the number one is that when you’re coming into a leadership role, it is dangerous to just say “Gosh, I’m excited for my first day and I’m just going to show up and do my best”. That’s an individual contributor mindset. If you’re coming in as a leader at any level, and I’ve had people use this book from C-levels to first level supervisor, you come in with the expectation that people are going to be watching everything you do, because now, the question is “Can I work with this person?”, and that person is you. The new person.
If you are just flailing around your first day and saying “Oh, that’s great. What do you guys do here?”, you lose the opportunity to really be thoughtful about the agenda you have. Now certainly, you’ll be asking a lot of questions, and you’ll be asking people in adjacent groups, “What do you do and what do you depend on my team for?”, and that sort of thing, but you want to come in being quite thoughtful about what are the questions you want to ask. How are we delivering value to this sort of segment, or how is this team interacting with this other team rather than just, “Hey, glad to start. Tell me what we do here”?

Pete Mockaitis         
Right. Absolutely. It’s night and day in terms of the proactivity and taking charge and ownership there.

Pam Fox Rollin        
And also the best executives that I’ve worked with have really carefully crafted a plan. Now, when I say plan, it doesn’t mean the world happens that way, but they’ve thought about “What are they going to do their first 90-hundred days? What’s most important? Who do they need to build relationships with? What do they need to learn about the strategy?”, and they come in ready to have a point of view and just as ready to change it based on new information.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent. Okay. Along those lines when it comes to developing that plan and working and executing that well, you’ve laid out 42 rules. Boy, I’d love to dig into just about all of them, but I’ve made my selections and I’d also like to hear you in terms of as you think through some of your work there, which of your rules do you think is most often broken in a bad way because you say rules are meant to be broken, but something that is commonly ignored, and by golly, it just seems to stop? People should get onboard with the program in tackling that best practice habitually.

Pam Fox Rollin
It’s a great question, Pete. One that comes right up for me is rule 17 which is pick smart quick wins, because no matter what level you come in whether it is a CEO or a first line manager, you’re going to want to prove yourself. Even if you don’t need to prove yourself super fast, you’re going to want to prove yourself very fast. I see people trip up all the time, Pete on choosing what that quick win is and how they go about it. Often, people are so excited to, anxious to get a win that they trampled their team in the process and start off with their team in a way they really would not intend to start if they were being thoughtful about it.

Pete Mockaitis         
I see.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Often, the way it’ll happen is something will be on fire and they’re like, “Oh”. They hear from their peers or their boss or their boss’ peers, “You’ve got to fix the situation with this account”, so they’re like, “Okay. We got to fix the situation. Turn the team around. Boy, I want to put up a win on the scoreboard. Do anything you have to”. Because they don’t understand yet how things really work there, often, they commit yes to a quick win that maybe is the worse one to try to turn around right now, and they do it in a way that really sets the relationships off on the wrong foot.

Pete Mockaitis         
I could totally see that happening, and so it’s like “By golly, I’m going to prove myself. We’re going to deliver something fantastic”, and then right off the bat, your teammates are thinking, “I hate this person”.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Right.

Pete Mockaitis         
Yeah. That sounds like bad news for sure. All right. Lovely. Any pro tips in ensuring that that does not happen?

Pam Fox Rollin        
When you start a new role, people have been waiting for you to start, so they’ve got a long list of the worst problems that they all want to talk with you about on the first day. Even if the last person left on a Friday or was never in that role, they’ve been waiting for the new person to start, and they’re not going to throw you the soft balls. They’re going to throw you the hardest one, so gather them up for a few days.
Ask people about them, “Oh, there’s a challenge with that account. Tell me about it. How long has this been going on? What commitments have we made to them to turn it around?” Then, you can step back.
At least give yourself a week, if not longer, to look at it and say, “Okay. It makes sense to tackle these ones in this order”, and run it by the key people on your team. Say “Here’s what I’m hearing. Here’s the order I’m thinking we tackle them in. How does that sound to you? What other thoughts do you have?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Excellent. Okay. Very good. Folks feel included and you’re getting the best stuff, and you’re able to do some smart prioritization and being like you said, you’re being smart about selecting your quick wins there.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis         
Perfect. Okay. Next up, I’d like to hear on the flip side, which rule do you think often in your experience provides among the greatest return on your investment? I guess when I say investment, I’m thinking about your personal time, energy, attention that you put forth in adopting that rule do you see pays just fantastic dividends relative to that.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Pete, I’ll give you one that really requires a lot of investment, and so, people tend not to do it, and I absolutely believe the highest returns are there, and that is rule 30, grow more leaders.
If you start seeing your role as to grow more leaders for that organization, but also, for their careers, you will have a lifetime supply of people who love to work with you. When you want to move up to the next role in that company or somewhere else in the industry, in a different part of the company, first of all, you have successors. One of the major conversations that I have with my clients, and many of whom are C-level and SVP level is they can’t and take that next role because they have nobody else in their organization who can step up into it. You are limiting your growth by not growing more leaders, but also, you’re limiting what can happen in the organization. Plus, the way I view leadership, Pete, and I love how one of my mentors, Bob Dunham puts it that a leader is one who declares a future that other people will commit to.
You can have many leaders in your organization, so if you create an organization that’s full of leaders who are setting out the future in their own particular areas, that all aligned to the common future that you’ve set out and the organization has set out, who are busy engaging other people in building that future with them, you’re going to have a really powerful team and department versus if you say “I’m the leader, and everyone else is a doer”.

Pete Mockaitis         
How beautiful, and that’s just a fantastic paradigm shift there in terms of saying not only when you invest in others are you helping them out and you’re helping out the organization, but you’re helping out yourself because otherwise, you might be stuck and say “Hey, sorry. You’re doing something critical and no one else could do it, so it doesn’t matter that a cool opportunity is open. You can’t have it because we can’t spare you”.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Right. Right. Also, the way careers move these days, especially in Silicon Valley, but I think it’s globally from what I’m seeing as well is people have longer memories and they have long networks, so whether it’s because of LinkedIn or just the nature of human relationships and our ease of keeping in communication, so many of my clients are when they move to a new role, they hire people that they’ve worked with along the last three or four companies who really stood out to them. If you took care to build those leaders along the way, then when you step up to a VP of Marketing role, you’re going to have a fabulous director of marketing who started with you as a first level marketing assistant that you encouraged them early on, they developed their career, and now, they’re really excited to come work with you.

Pete Mockaitis         
Beautiful. Okay. Now, I’d love to hear a bit more about some of the rules in particular that caught my eye. Could you speak to us a little bit about rule number seven, map what matters to people with power?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. Yeah. This is where you get out the Google Sheet ideally before you start, as you’re doing the interviews and getting to know the company or getting to know the new part of the organization if you’re an internal candidate. Put together the simple Google Sheet that says “Who matters for this group?” That’s not just the boss of the group. It’s also your boss’ peers.
It’s key customers. It’s gatekeepers like an account manager or someone like that, suppliers. Who matters? What are they rewarded on? What do they care about?
What are they expecting from you, and what are they concerned about? You get glimmers of this through the interviews, especially if you ask about it, like “Who cares about the performance of this group? If this group started really hitting it out of the park, who’s going to be very excited? Who’s going to be very concerned? If this group has a slip, who is affected downstream?”
You want to start capturing all that information because as we talked about a moment ago, when you come in, you’re going to be presented with a bunch of stuff on your desk that is smoking or people will tell you is on fire, and you want to keep that sense of perspective so that you review that spreadsheet at least once a week and say, “Who do I need to be communicating with? Their stuff isn’t on fire, but I know that leader really cares about what our group is doing, and when would it make sense for me to check back in and say, ‘Hey, I think we’re delivering for you. I think you’re getting what you need, but please tell me if there’s any feedback you have for us or anything else you’d like to see us take forward’?”

Pete Mockaitis         
Could you maybe give an example or two associated with things that might get overlooked along the lines here, because I think the boss is clear-cut, but could you give us an example or two of maybe some downstream or adjacent kinds of folks that we might forget in our mapping of what matters to people with power?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. Especially in complicated technology organizations, there’s all sorts of groups whose names might not tell you exactly what they do. You might think, “Oh, I know what product marketing does. I know what inside sales does”, et cetera, but it may be set up in this organization a little bit differently.
Those may be people who are making commitments to customers about your product, and they may be people who are hearing from customers about your product. I would really encourage you to use that what I talk about is the bit of a honeymoon period, the first month or two, and make time in your calendar to go around and find out what these adjacent and downstream and customer-facing groups are doing, and how they interact with your line of business.

Pete Mockaitis         
Okay. Very good. Now, could you tell us a little bit about rule number 16, get over yourself.

Pam Fox Rollin
Yeah. That’s a good one. The whole new job finding and interviewing process sets you up I think to have your mind in a place where you don’t want it to be, which is it’s about me. It’s about my strengths and weaknesses. It’s about proving that I’m the right person for this role. It’s telling my story, et cetera, et cetera.
Once you start, sure, there’s a little bit of that and it’s so easy to get trapped, but “Oh, you’re the new director of accounting. You’re the new controller. What is it … Tell me where you come from”, all of that. People will feed into that mentality that’s about you.
It’s seductive, Pete, but very soon, you want to be switching to a story about us, about the team, about the company, about the product, and you want to be asking people about their story and who they are, and make sure that most of the conversation is getting you new information, and if you’re going to tell a story, that it’s a story as much about the team and the product as it is about you.

Pete Mockaitis         
Okay, so you’re saying don’t get sucked into that. Indeed, make sure that you’re using those precious conversational opportunities to learn some things, as well as dispense credit instead of just chit chatting away about yourself.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Right, because people will ask you about you, and it’s so easy to just stay there.

Pete Mockaitis         
All right. Okay. Okay. What you talked about telling some stories there, you’ve got another rule specifically dedicated to telling a good story, number 21. What’s the story behind the story?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. There’s much great evidence that people remember stories, and you’re going to want to ask people who have been in the company longer about “Tell me about a time when”, or “How did this group get started?”
You’re really going to want to listen for the stories people tell. Some of which, you’re going to want to carry forward or at least know about. Also, you want to hear what really has resonance in the organization, to start with there’s a bit of a slippery edge there, Pete around telling stories because the stories that you’ll tell will be about your past in another organization.
I’m sure you’ve had the experience of the guy who’s been with the company for a year now and he’s still telling about his glory days two years ago, and he was with this other high-flying company. It gets old really fast. You want to look for what has resonance in your organization from the stories other people tell, and then look for fresh opportunities to tell new stories about what’s going on in your group.
You’re going to have the opportunity. Encourage people to make the most of it to go talk to customers, suppliers, other groups. Then, come back and tell those stories to your peers, to your team obviously where appropriate, when appropriate, but give yourself some new stories so you’re not always talking about where you’ve been before.

Pete Mockaitis         
That’s fun. You’re saying really make it come to life with anecdotes and real people and real experiences above and beyond the story. I’m thinking as Bainies, we tell stories with data, but you’re saying narratives of people doing a series of events.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yes. That’s right. I love data. So glad to have started it in being sort of business boot camp environment and really valuing the data, and I discovered that people pay more attention to you and remember narrative stories rather than certainly data tables, but also some of the PowerPoint slides we love to make.

Pete Mockaitis         
Could you maybe give us an example of a point that you have heard made compellingly with a narrative story that might be told instead of a data? I’m imagining we could look at in a call center, customer, metrics associated with the first call resolution, the average handle time, pass offs, et cetera, et cetera, versus you could tell there was a customer who called in, and this is what happened. Could you give us an example of what’s a great business story you’ve heard that connects with people and makes a point about the content of what’s going on?

Pam Fox Rollin        
I’ll follow up and talk about call center. Early on, I had done a bunch of call center work in healthcare and listened in. Boy, anybody whose business has a cell center at whatever level you’re starting, I encourage you to listen in to call center calls and listen to real customers. There was one that I was listening to, and this was many years ago. Not a current client, but they had nurse callers talking to each of their new patients and going through a series of questions and checklists. The idea was to identify potential risk factors that might flag them for certain programs.
The callers were doing it having never been encouraged to do otherwise in a way that was really perfunctory. They would call and they would say “Hi” and so and so. “I’m calling from this health group that you’re now a part of. Have you ever experienced domestic violence?” “Yes”. “Are you experiencing it right now?”

Pete Mockaitis         
The question went out of the gate.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yes. “Are you doing this?” “Yes”.

Pete Mockaitis         
Oh, man.

Pam Fox Rollin
“Do you feel safe at your home?” “No”.

Pete Mockaitis         
Oh dear.

Pam Fox Rollin
Then, they were like, “Thank you”. They just continued the script. “Thank you for the information”. They put the pile in the paperwork and like …

Pete Mockaitis         
Oh, man.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Telling that story, I went and talked to some of the leaders in the organization and said, “This is what I heard. Go down and listen and see what you think”. They really needed to turn around how people were talking to that customers, but had I just said, “Okay. It seems that 80% of calls about these tricky issues are handled in 2.5 minutes”, and it just wouldn’t tell the same story.

Pete Mockaitis         
Absolutely not. Oh my gosh. I hope those women are okay.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis         
Good. Good. All right. Saving the world as well by telling a good story. Thank you. Okay. Now, tell us a little bit perhaps about rule 23, a balance of curiosity, advice, and silence.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. It’s so easy to continue to play the expert. Right? That’s why you think you are hired because you’re better at inventory management than the other people they talk to. Now, you’re the new director of inventory management.
If you walk in with that mindset, Pete: “I’m the expert about inventory management. I want them to prove that they hired the right person, so I’m going to go in there and just be as expert as humanly possible, and if anyone asks anything about inventory management, boy, I’m all over giving them advice because after all, I’m the expert.” You are and you see the problems that happen with this one. One is you may absolutely be the expert in your last company, in your last industry, but something has changed because you’re in a new role. There may be some things that you need to learn about inventory management in this new context or at this new level. The second thing is if you present yourself as an expert and especially if you’re right, and everyone else in the room is less of an expert, if you play the expert, you will not find out what they know.
They will be quiet and they will let you talk because they see you’re the expert. Now, you don’t know what they know, what they don’t know, what they think, what they’re worried about, so if you’re willing to say, “Yeah, I’ve had some experience in it, but how is it working here? What might not be obvious? What’s on your mind about how we’re managing inventory? What opportunities do you see?”
If you bring that natural curiosity, you’re going to find out so much more than if you bring yourself a hundred percent as the expert.

Pete Mockaitis         
Absolutely. That makes sense, and it’s funny. I have both sides of that in which I haven’t shared something because I thought, “Oh, I’m sure they know all that already”.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis         
I’ve been on the flip side in which I am the expert, and I guess I’m just surprised. It was like, “How come no one shared this with me earlier?”

Pam Fox Rollin        
Right.

Pete Mockaitis         
I’ve been in the dark like a fool for two years.

Pam Fox Rollin        
It’s so easy to have it happen. The better you are and the better credentials you have and the better expertise you legitimately have, the more likely you are to fall in that trap.

Pete Mockaitis         
All right. Thank you. Okay. Boy, we are cruising. This is so fun. Thank you.
How about rule 26, running unmissable meetings that almost feels like hyperbole? Is that even possible? How could one run an unmissable meeting?

Pam Fox Rollin        
We know how to run the opposite because that’s what happens almost all the time. Just to make a side note here, Pete, I often hear from some leaders quote around the organizations that I work with that yeah, they’ve got a lot of practice at this or practice at that, so they don’t need to learn how to do it any better. The example I always point to is meetings. It’s like, “How’s the quality of most of the meetings you go to?” Not the ones you run, but most of the meetings you go to.
“Oh, God. It’s awful. It’s just a complete waste of time. It’s boring”, blah, blah, blah. “How many years do you think those people have been running meetings? Ten years? Twenty years?”

Pete Mockaitis         
Yeah.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Then, they get it. They’re like, “Oh, so they’ve been doing it badly for 20 years”, and the light starts to dawn. “Oh, what have I been doing badly for 20 years?” Meetings are a special case of people do it all the time and most of the time badly, and the irony is, Pete, we know what makes a good meeting. You’ve got a purpose.
The people who were there are enrolled in that purpose. They want to make this thing happen. There is a point to the conversation. “We’re going to decide this. We’re going to all get up to speed on X so we can decide that the next week”, and there’s the opportunity to bring the wisdom of the group out. If it’s just a one way sharing of information, send an email and save everybody’s time walking down the hall or getting on an airplane.

Pete Mockaitis         
Right.

Pam Fox Rollin        
A meeting without a way to harness the wisdom in the room is really pointless and leaves people rather unengaged. Similarly, I do a lot of work around Myers–Briggs, and of course, there’s so much talk about introverts and extroverts and all of that. It’s really worth noting that for many people, they want to have thought about something before they’re expected to speak about it.

Pete Mockaitis         
Yes.

Pam Fox Rollin        
If you don’t construct that time to think about it whether by sending materials in advance or separating the information meeting from the deciding meeting, if you don’t take that time and care in designing it, they’re going to be silent participants, rather than the wise participating participants that you really want, so give some thought to how you design your meetings. Make them edge of your seat because every person in the room actually cares about the purpose of the meeting.

Pete Mockaitis         
That’s fun. That’s so good. Now, I’m imagining, fundamentally, you have to have employees who are generally engaged in what the company, the group is about such that the meeting is a subset of that, and I guess …

Pam Fox Rollin        
Stop saying otherwise.

Pete Mockaitis         
Tell me more.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. I mean, I’m sure you’ve seen the Gallup statistics about how …

Pete Mockaitis         
Yes. That’s about …

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. Few people are engaged in their jobs. It’s just it’s awful, and there are so many people who are actively disengaged, so go talk with them. Find out what they care about. If somebody seems really disengaged, ask what we should be doing instead. What would be worth our time?
Don’t just have them show up in the back of the meeting, beyond through it, and do it again next week. Go talk with them. “How do I make this important enough? Are we focused on the wrong things?” It’s such a great time to do it, Pete in your first couple of months because people are hoping that you’ll change things up anyway.

Pete Mockaitis         
That’s fun. It’s fun. That reminds me of we had a prior guest who mentioned that he would make little ticks associated with who spoke on during what topic of that meeting. It was Kevin Hall, episode 34. From doing so, you’d say “Maybe this person doesn’t need to be at the meeting”, or you’re also saying “Maybe this person needs to be reengaged and will learn what’s behind that”.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Precisely. Precisely. I’ve learned not to assume that the person who isn’t saying anything isn’t engaged.

Pete Mockaitis         
Yes.

Pam Fox Rollin        
It’s certainly worth the conversation before wasting anymore of your time or their time to have them in another meeting to go check it out with them. You might find that they’re very engaged. They were listening really carefully, and there’s just not a great way for them to participate, and so you could redesign the meeting.

Pete Mockaitis         
Beautiful. Thank you. Okay. I got two more if you’re still revved up. I am.

Pam Fox Rollin        
I’m so revved.

Pete Mockaitis         
All right. Good. Tell us about rule number 35, ferret out feedback.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. Right. There was a CEO I was working with who we’re talking about his leadership, and he’s like, “Oh, I think I have this problem with public speaking. When it’s a big group, I get a little antsy, but really good with small groups”. I said, “Okay. Great. How do you know? How do you know you’re really good with that?”
“How would I know I’m …” “I don’t know. I show up and nobody leaves while I’m talking”.
“Okay. All right. Maybe it’s worth checking out”. What he did was find a couple of people around the organization who were in a trusting relationship with him so that he could ask them and say, “Hey, how have my messages landing? What are you hearing afterwards? Are people more engaged in this initiative because I went and had this conversation with them or are people not getting it?”
What he heard back from them is “Yeah, they’re glad you came by, but they don’t get why you’re talking with this group because there’s three or four other things that need to be done before this group can get engaged, and they don’t really understand what you want them to do, and yeah, they’re glad to see you, but the message isn’t landing at all”. He had no idea. That’s really typical because very few people go tell even their first level boss, let alone, the CEO. “By the way, dude, what you’re saying just isn’t landing with any of us”.

Pete Mockaitis         
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Pam Fox Rollin        
If you want that feedback, you got to go make it happen for yourself.

Pete Mockaitis         
Can you share … Are there some best practices or tactics or approaches because I can imagine that one is going to the folks that you really trust and who would support you because they can open up and reveal the stuff. I guess I’m thinking there are some who just won’t open up. What are some other means of I guess figuring it out, sort of making people feel comfortable or mechanisms so that they’re able to reveal that feedback?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. I think the number one thing is actually slightly orthogonal to asking for feedback, and that is to respond well to the feedback that you get, especially in public forms, but really, almost any conversation as a public form because the next …

Pete Mockaitis         
Okay. Yeah.

Pam Fox Rollin        
The person you’re talking with is going to go and say, “It was a fine meeting until I suggested that he reformat our one-to-ones”, and then he just like, “What? There’s nothing wrong with it”. If you downplay the feedback you receive, you have just badly damaged your feedback channel, so the number one thing I think you can do to get more feedback as a leader is treat anything with curiosity. If people say “Overall, I think we’re doing great on this initiative, but I’ve got this one concern”, say “Tell me more. Let’s schedule a time to talk about it. What could we learn from this?”, because if people see that you can hold what might be considered bad news or difficult news or potential criticism with curiosity and interest, and not shunted off to the side before you learn about it, yeah, there are some …

Pete Mockaitis         
Right.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Not all feedback is relevant, and some of the issues might be really small potatoes, but if you’ll hop that back to them right when they give you the feedback, everyone else in the room and the other people who hear about it get the message you don’t take feedback well. Then, it becomes even more difficult for you to go ask for it.

Pete Mockaitis         
That’s so good. It’s interesting how just that extra dose of conscientiousness can make the difference because I can imagine a leader… I’ve probably done it, and I’ve seen others do it. They get a point of feedback, and maybe it really doesn’t matter so much in the grand scheme of things, and they’ll just respond bluntly like, “Right, but the real priority right now is this”.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis         
That may be true, but the person is like, “Note to self: Just don’t tell them things”.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Right. Fifteen people have just learned not to tell you things that you haven’t just said are priorities.

Pete Mockaitis         
All right.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Pretty soon, you become the only person in the organization whose brain is connected to their mouth, and that is a very exhausting place to be.

Pete Mockaitis         
Absolutely. Thank you. All right. Now, finally, could you tell us a bit about rule 39, mind your mood?

Pam Fox Rollin
Yeah. Boy, I love this one. This has been an area that I’ve done work more deeply and since I wrote the book as well. We tend to think about moods pretty simplistically in our leadership culture as a lot of the boss is in a good mood, the boss is in a bad mood. I mean, we know that people roll from one meeting to the next without really deciding how they’re going to show up, so often, I work with clients on that. Even more so, I’ve come to think about moods as an integration of what your body is doing, what your mindset is, and what you’re talking about.
First of all, if there’s not congruence between those things, you’re saying something, but your body is doing something different, your messages aren’t going to be received in a clear, congruent way that has people take action. Secondly, if we start thinking about moods as an area we can design … Again, a speaker of Bob Dunham at Institute for Generative Leadership, I’ve learned so much from him on this. If we start thinking of moods as an arena for design, we can choose. I feel both curiosity as I’m walking into this room about this topic, but I also feel frustration.
Do I want to come in with both of those moods? One of those moods? How do I want to put my body? Where do I want to put my attention? What am I going to listen for?
Often, we’ll choose moods like curiosity, like positive ambition. Occasionally, we want to walk in there with frustration, but then at least let’s make sure that our mouth and our mindset and our body are in the same formation. I’ll give you an example. There’s a senior team of a public company that I was facilitating usually once a month. One of the times, the CEO is just like wriggling in his seat.
To me, it looks really frustrating, but the words that were coming out of mouth didn’t express what he’s frustrated about, so at a break, I grabbed him and said, “Hey, it looks like you’ve got maybe an itchy sweater or…” We wound up joking about that it is his itchy sweater syndrome. “Is there something that’s bugging you?” He’s like, “Yeah. I’m so frustrated because of this, this, and this”, and people weren’t presenting to him, Pete the information that he wanted, but he didn’t want to stop them because he knew they weren’t ready to present the information he wanted, but he was really frustrated that they weren’t doing it.
I said, “Wow. That really makes sense”. I said, “Do you think other people are picking up on frustration from you?” He’s like, “I’m trying hard to hide it”, and we all know that doesn’t work really well. I’m like “People don’t know what you’re frustrated about. They know you’re frustrated, but not what you’re frustrated about”.
He came up with a plan. He went back in and he said, “Hey, I want you guys to know that I’m really appreciating what you’re talking with me about. Very important topics. I appreciate the research that you put in with it, but if you’ve been sensing a little frustration from me, here’s why. Because for this kind of initiative, these kind of proposals, I want to hear this sort of information, and I’m not getting it from you.”
“It’s helped me realize I didn’t ask you to present it in that way, so here’s what I’d like to do. Let’s finish up with the proposals that you guys are ready to do right now, but let’s have our next meeting focused on this other kind of data that would really help us make a great decision”. Then, he was relaxed. Other people were relaxed because they knew what was on his mind, and the next meeting went the way he wanted it to.

Pete Mockaitis         
Back at episode 14, Dr. Marcia Reynolds gave some how-tos when it comes to establishing your emotion which is wild that you have this level of control. Would you add anything there in terms of the, “Okay. I’m feeling curiosity. I’m feeling frustration. I’m going to choose curiosity”?
In practice, how do you do that?

Pam Fox Rollin
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis         
What’s it monitoring your body and your attention? What’s the checklist or protocol to get a mood going?

Pam Fox Rollin        
I’ll share with you an activity that I did with a group of doctors last week. We were talking about this concept of mood because they’d go back and forth. They’re physician leaders.
They go back and forth between talking to a group of interns and talking to a patient, and being part of an improvement committee and whatever, and it’s so easy for them to roll forward into a next meeting something that they’re upset with about a patient in their last interaction. We talked about mood resets and really choosing how you want to put yourself. “Is it okay? How do we do that?” We actually practice putting our bodies in.
Leaders tend to forget we drag around our bodies with this wherever we are, so put your body in the position when you’re excited about something, when you’re curious about something, when you’re upset or sad or frustrated or angry, and try to say the same thing from those different positions, and you can see really clearly how much easier messages to listen to when you’ve also got your body in a place that’s congruent with right now, with where are you now, what are the messages you’re ready to deliver. We talked about the importance of a quick physical reset. As they’re going from one meeting to another, just check in with their body. Are their shoulders tight? Maybe that was about the last conversation, not the one they’re going into. Take some breaths.
Just a speck of a walk can be used to reset to your body so that your body is not in the mood of the last conversation. It’s ready for the next conversation.

Pete Mockaitis         
Beautiful. Thank you. Okay. Boy, we’ve covered a lot of great stuff. You tell me, Pam, is there anything else you want to make sure we cover off before shifting gears into the rapid fire stuff here?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Sure. I guess the one thing I’d add is, and it follows up on the expertise question is about being a learner. One of the things that I’ve really enjoyed about learning Toyota Production Systems, sort of lean is that in that way of viewing management and leadership and what are we as a team here to do, the perspective is that the best leaders are the best learners, and the best learners become the best leaders. It seems so obvious, but it is not common sense in our culture, Pete. So many folks who could be so much better are reluctant to show up as learners, but those who do learn faster than everyone else and by learning it means not that they’ve got a new fact in their head that they don’t act on, but that they’re actually able to show up differently because they learned something.
For example, if you’re a listener, you have now the idea of this quick physical reset as you walk from one meeting to another. Might you actually do it? When in the next week might you experiment with doing that? Use that quick walk to the meeting room to relax your body, calm your breath, and really get your head in the space for the next meeting. That kind of learning, really embodying it, doing it will accelerate your leadership so much faster than boosting your confidence as an expert that you want to present yourself to be.

Pete Mockaitis         
Thank you. All right. Now, shifting into the fast phase, could you share with us a favorite quote?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yeah. Related to the quote of practices, you’ve probably heard 10,000 hours makes you a master. I love a quote about “You’re doing 10,000 hours anyway, so what are you actually mastering?” There are people who are masters at running dull meetings. There are people who are masters at walking in and being frustrated. What are you mastering with your 10,000 hours?

Pete Mockaitis         
Thank you. How about a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Pam Fox Rollin
I so love that you asked that, Pete because I’m a total research hound. Every morning, I get from ‘ScienceDaily’ … I think it’s ‘ScienceDaily.com’. I get a news feed. I’ve chosen the one that’s on mind and brain, and so there’s usually quick description of 15 research studies that are just out about various aspects of psychology, and I find it completely fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis         
Oh my gosh. I’m so excited to activate that. I did not know that existed in the world. Thank you.

Pam Fox Rollin
Yeah. It’s awesome.

Pete Mockaitis         
How about a favorite book?

Pam Fox Rollin        
I have so many of them, but the one I’ll grab right now is sitting right by my desk. It’s ‘Antifragile’ by Nassim Nicholas Taleb. It is about how to be the one who or the many who thrive in a world of change versus wanting to thrive just in the world that you happen to be in right now because things are changing, and if you become somebody who has a capability in adapting, you’re going to do awesome.

Pete Mockaitis         
Thank you. How about a favorite tool, whether it’s a hardware, software gadget, something you use often?

Pam Fox Rollin        
I’ve outsourced my brain to my iPhone. I have everything on there that I need. Really well set up, and I have it ping me for emails from people in my world who deserve an urgent response. That’s the only thing it pings me for and I love it.

Pete Mockaitis         
Very cool. How about a favorite habit or personal practice that’s boosted your effectiveness?

Pam Fox Rollin        
I’ll say that reset. That’s stopping to breathe between meetings, between calls, and really starting each one from a fresh place.

Pete Mockaitis         
Thank you. How about a favorite resonant nugget, something that you say in your speeches or books or coaching that gets people nodding their head and saying, “Oh, yes. Really connecting”?

Pam Fox Rollin        
I thought I’d highlight … One of the fun things about books on Kindle, including mine is it will show you which one’s people tend to highlight most often, and here’s one that’s frequently highlighted from my book.

Pete Mockaitis         
Right.

Pam Fox Rollin        
It’s “A simple framework for presenting issues and your positions, and it’s got five steps. Here’s what I’m seeing. Here’s how I interpret that. What am I missing? Here’s what I think that means for us. What do you think?” You can use that up, down, across every day.

Pete Mockaitis         
Fun. Thank you. What would you say is the best way to find you if folks want to learn more about you and what you’re up to?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Sure. Feel free to come to ‘Ideashape.com’, and also come to the Facebook page for the book because we can be a little more interactive there. That is ‘Facebook.com/leadstartbook’.

Pete Mockaitis         
Okay. Do you have a parting challenge or call to action for those seeking to be more awesome at their jobs?

Pam Fox Rollin        
Yay. By the way, Pete, I love that you’ve got this Awesome At Your Job thing going, and I’ve listened to some of the other podcasts you’ve done there. Just terrific, and I like the guidance that people have, so I’ll just add this one to it, is to ask the question, “Who could give us a different view of this?”
Often, that invites people. It gives you a chance to invite people in who are younger or from a different department or from a different life experience, rather than have the same voices in the room shape the conversation.

Pete Mockaitis         
Excellent. Thank you. Pam, this has been such a treat. Thank you for … We had a little extra, extra large, full-featured episode, but that was so worth it for me and I’m sure everyone will enjoy it as well. This has been a treat. Thank you and I wish you tons of luck with IdeaShape and more.

Pam Fox Rollin        
Thanks so much. This was really fun, Pete.