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Apr 30
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1149: How to Stand Out, Multiply Your Opportunities, and Win People’s Confidence with Justin Humphries

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Justin Humphries reveals his fundamental principles for rapidly growing opportunities and income in an uncertain job market.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to multiply your inbound opportunities
  2. The simplest way to expand your professional network
  3. The key that keeps people coming back to you

About Justin

Justin Humphries is a dedicated Loan Officer with experience since June 2021, specializing in VA, first-time homebuyer, and DSCR loans. A Nashville native, Justin is deeply motivated by personal and professional growth, drawing strength from his faith, family, and a passion for building meaningful relationships. He takes great pride in helping clients align their mortgage strategies with their life goals, aiming to support them in building long-term wealth. Justin values the opportunity to develop lasting connections with customers who return to him year after year for their mortgage needs.

Beyond his professional work, Justin is actively involved in his church community, serving on the parish council and volunteering with the Society of St. Vincent DePaul to assist families at risk of homelessness. He is happily married to his wife Stephanie and is a proud father of three young children, including twins.

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Justin Humphries Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Justin, welcome!

Justin Humphries
Hey, Pete, great to be here. Appreciate you having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am excited to be chatting. We’ve known each other for just about five years now here in Tennessee. And, boy, I say this and I mean this, not just because we’re pals, but it sure seems that you’re awesome at your job.

Justin Humphries
Well, much appreciated. I think you’re awesome at yours as well, and I’ve enjoyed listening to your podcast over those last five years, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Now your job, specifically, is you’re in the mortgage game. You’ve assisted me with some real estate mortgage-y lending things, and I was very impressed at the way you delivered. But what I got you on here today for is, you know, here we are in 2026, and people speak about the job market being terrifying, and here you are, a younger feller, still in your 20s, and you recently made a switch and found yourself with a hefty signing bonus.

And I was like, “Well, is this an anomalous character or what’s going on here with Justin?” Please, can you orient us a little bit to you’re in the mortgage game, and you took a new role, and what’s going on?

Justin Humphries
Yeah, so, essentially, the way that I look at mortgage as a self-producing loan originator, I control my own pipeline, I control my customer relationships, I control my referral partner relationships, but what that also means is I control revenue to the company that I work for.

So it’s less of an employee-employer relationship and more of a decision, a strategic decision on my part as to which platform is going to benefit my business the most. And, of course, they need and want that revenue because without my revenue, they don’t have any revenue.

So they are, what I found in that job search is that you did have companies that were willing to, essentially, advance, so to speak, a portion of their revenue, their future revenue based on my past production in terms of a sign-on bonus for some guarantees that I would stick around for a little bit.

So it’s a very different type of a job search than what you would traditionally think of where you go and you apply for multiple jobs online, but it was more of, “Hey, I had companies that were chasing me that wanted that production and that revenue into their own businesses.”

So being able to control that revenue stream, I found gave me a good amount of negotiating power on the front end.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so originator, producer, revenue, we are speaking in a language in sort of sales-ish.

Justin Humphries
That’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
So it’s not so much that you’re just super swell at taking care of the customer, although you are, but rather you’re a bit of a rainmaker, if you will. With you, come relationships and the prospect of, “Oh, we’re going to get more mortgages in the door and more revenue for this business.”

Justin Humphries
Yeah, that’s right. So being a rainmaker is a great way to put it, right, in terms of that control over the relationships and the partnerships because I’m not so much selling a product of the company that I work for, as much as I’m selling myself and my personalized services and value that I bring my referral partners and my customers.

And I want to make sure that the platform that I’ve worked for, i.e., my company that employs me, is going to provide them with as much more value than the previous company that I worked for.

But it’s not as, yeah, it’s not as black and white as I’m just selling a product that the company provides for me on company relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. Because, in many ways, there’s a range of products in terms of lending, whether it’s a VA loan, or an FHA loan. And then all kinds of little nuances associated with it, or this is actually non-conforming in the US sense of the word to the Fannie Mae and the Freddie Mac world.

And so you know a lot of stuff. And, in fact, I’ve been impressed. You often tend to surprise real estate agents when you call them about their own listings and inform them about some cool lending financing opportunities that could exist for that property that they’re not even aware of.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, that’s right. So, well, and the beauty of mortgage is it’s a very commoditized business. So I’m not selling loans that another company necessarily is completely incapable of doing. It’s more or less a commodity and the service behind it is me and my team and what we bring to the table for that referral partner and for the customer and the client experience.

So, most every lender is going to do in FHA loan, they’re going to do a conforming loan, they’re going to have some of the non-conforming goodies, special loan products, you know, 20, 30, 40, 200 different loan products, right?

Some of which are very niche-y and required specialized knowledge. Others are, you know, something we encounter on a daily basis. So having that specialized knowledge, I found that it does help out quite a bit when you’re having those conversations with those referral partners.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so can you tell us a little bit about, so you made a switch recently to another mortgage company? Now, how did that come about? In a world where some people are really spooked and they feel like jobs are scarce and layoffs are happening, you had a few people vying for you at the same time.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, so it ended up being You know a combination of a couple things, right? I’m always being recruited. My production is public knowledge, so can go and pull it up with my licensing information. And so the numbers and the the quantitative value, so to speak, to a company is publicly available and people are constantly reaching out and constantly calling.

So it’s, hey, there’s always the optionality to move. So there were a couple things that were happening with the platform and a company that I was with before that were, I think, suboptimal.

And so I had expressed that they were suboptimal, was willing to work to help make things workable in the way that I thought they should go, was rebuffed a few different times on that. So, eventually, decided, “Hey, I don’t think I’m happy staying here. I don’t think this is the platform that’s going to bring the most value to me and my referral partners and my clients. So I’m going to move.”

And then once you make that decision, you start listening and hearing for those opportunities. So just like if you’re looking for a vehicle, I mean, I have a truck, so I have a Toyota Tundra, and when you start looking for a new car, looking for a vehicle, you start seeing Tundras, Toyota Tundras. You start looking and seeing the vehicle that you are searching for constantly?

The reticular activating system, I believe is what it’s called. And so I started getting that. I started noticing those spam calls that were just spam calls a month prior. And now they’re like, “Wow, this is an opportunity.” So I started taking some of those. So I landed with about seven or eight different opportunities on my plate.

Pete Mockaitis
Eight? Okay.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, just from listening, right? And two or three of which, about three turned out to be really good and pretty appealing, either way. But what ended up happening is I ended up finding my role through a networking event. So through my BNI group, which I know we may have mentioned when we talked, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
BNI? Business Networking International created by Ivan Misner, guest of the show. Hey! Hey!

Justin Humphries
So, through BNI, there was a referral partner and a real estate agent, BNI, that had known a company and, specifically, a team that was looking to hire somebody in our area here.

All the calls and all the listing that I did in the marketplace, boiled down to, “Okay, let’s have a conversation.” And that conversation turned into really three firm offers on the table. And I went with the platform and the terms that were most beneficial.

So all of it happened, I mean, in a relative short amount of time. It was very interesting how that all came about when it comes to just keeping my ear to the ground and just looking for the opportunities that were there the entire time, if that makes sense.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is good. So I’d like to zoom out just a little bit for those who are saying, “Okay, Pete, I don’t do mortgages. I don’t do sales. What can I learn from this Justin fella?” I think it’s intriguing, a couple of points there.

One, you said your production is common knowledge. So someone people are logging in, I guess that’s why you’re getting all these calls from randos, is they’re saying, “Okay, who’s doing a lot of mortgage loans? Okay. This is Justin character. Oh, that’s a good number. Wait, he hasn’t been doing this that long. Oh, intriguing. All right.”

So that’s pretty nifty is that, in a way, numbers, black and white, very appealing, but I’m thinking that there are many ways we can have our expertise, our value, what we can bring to the table in a public format in terms of maybe they are listed, maybe you’ve got a blog or a podcast, some content stuff, or maybe you’ve got patents or papers or science things.

I’m thinking about Zuckerberg going wild, giving fat offers to all these AI scientists. They were known, like, “Hey, I am a guy who can get some AI breakthroughs, and this is what you need.” And so Mark Zuckerberg comes knocking at the door to get those kinds of folks.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, I mean, even LinkedIn, too, is a platform for showcasing, you know, in the bio section, what you do, putting some numbers to it, making it quantifiable, I think is key. In my industry, everything is quantifiable, right? It’s all about the numbers.

And they really do make a big difference when the decision is, “Okay, am I going to be on kind of a standard or more average or mediocre level? Or is this going to be, you know, my number is going to be top 10%, top 5%?”

Because I think that’s when you start really getting sought after, is what I found as well. When my numbers climbed from, “Okay, I’m kind of average or median early on, first couple of years,” to, “Okay, now we’re not elite-elite yet,” and I’m still not, working towards that, but top five to 10% is when people really start seeking you because the top 1%, oftentimes top half of 1% never move.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, that’s interesting, and I like what you say about the numbers. And I say this a lot when it comes to working with resumes. Back in the day, I’ve looked at many many resumes and that was often a huge opportunity for improvement in terms of, if you could say, “Oh, I provide excellent customer service.” Like, okay.

As opposed to, “Oh, I spearheaded these initiatives that improved our net promoter score from 21 to 53.” Like, “Whoa!” Like, folks who are in the know, who are thinking about a net promoter score, NPS, they say, “Holy smokes! That would be amazing if this person could drive that kind of improvement over for us.”

Or in terms of being public available, now I’m thinking about, “Is it contributing…?” for software people, like, I don’t know the lingo, the GitHub, their repos and their commits and their stars. Like, that world that people get the memo, like, “Oh, this person has an impressive track record. They are generating a result that is quantified and clear that I like, need, want in my organization.”

Justin Humphries
Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I was also intrigued by just the networking piece. So you’re in the BNI, Business Networking International Group, and so you’re actively investing there. And I know that you’re also in a mastermind group full of real estate type folk. And so you’re putting some real dollars into that as well as real time and travel to deepen those relationships.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, I mean, to me, you’ve heard the saying, right, “My net worth is my network,” or, “My network is my net worth.” I think the reverse is a correct one. But that has been so true in my business. And everything I do is relationship-driven. It starts with that point of trust with either the client or the referral partner, whoever I make contact with first, especially with referral partners, everything is relationship-driven.

It’s all about, “How can I protect my relationships? How can I grow my relationships? How can I create new ones, nurture current ones, maybe rebuild or build old ones?” And the BNI group is a huge part of that.

Now in the investor group, that’s a very different type of networking, right? Because it’s a crowded room with a lot of people that do what I do, but it’s also a high-trust, high-transaction room. So you have people in that space that are transacting on the real estate investment side, 100 plus times per year, right?

And, obviously, those people like to work with the same people that they’ve been working with, right? So that is less a, “Okay, send me a referral that’s going to close one client,” to, “Hey, land a client or two, and build that relationship, build that trust with them, be consistent over time to grow a relationship there.”

And that’s a little bit longer of a time span in terms of revenue being generated. I found that BNI, because, again, it’s a higher-trust, higher-transaction, non-exclusive room, too. This is two very interesting, very good networking opportunities for me but also very different.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and it’s intriguing. And so outside, again, mortgages or real estate or sales, I’m just thinking about how there’s a lot of studies done about the power of the weak tie, the relationships, it’s not your immediate friends, family, folks that you see in community organizations, but someone, oh, you went to college with somebody, you met them at an event and you kind of stayed in touch, and that opens up opportunities when they occur.

And that has, in fact, happened to me in terms of Podcast Movement. I went there and I’ve met people and we continued to collaborate in all kinds of ways. I was at my podcast mastermind group meeting in person last week, and it was awesomely fun.

And we are continuing to share knowledge and best practices and, “Oh, here’s a great publicist, and here’s a great book agent, and here’s a great guest for your show, and here’s a cool tactic I’ve used to grow my show.”

Like, all that knowledge-sharing stuff and relationship-building stuff, I think, is tremendously powerful when you’re in the job, just doing better, as well as highlighting new opportunities where you might land.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, you talked, I like the phrase you used “a weak tie,” right? And something else that I’ve noticed where weak ties, a seemingly weak tie, is particularly powerful where you may not even know them whatsoever, would be affinity groups, right?

You mentioned college, which is, so I went to the University of Alabama, we’re all tied. But somebody that went to the University of Alabama, that’s an affinity group, you know, an alumnus there. Religious organizations, churches, that’s an affinity group where you don’t even have to know that person, but there’s a built-in trust by the nature of you both belonging to that same group, even if it’s large and largely, like you mentioned, a weak tie.

So I’ve noticed that in my own business and within networking, too, that ability of those weak ties and sharing affinity groups just to strike up and create conversations and conversations leading into revenue and closed business.

Pete Mockaitis
And now, of course, a key thing for these relationships to really be fruitful from a career or a business perspective is trust, and a key part of trust is just your competence, your awesomeness. And I’ll just brag on you for a moment, Justin. You do this amazingly.

I was trying to refinance a situation and they were just so slow. It was taking months. And I was like, “Justin, what’s the deal here?” And you said, “You know, I think the deal here is they probably miscategorized or something, something, something, and run into trouble with this and that. So what you’ve got to do is you got to…”

And so you told me what to do. And I told them, “Hey, man, we’ve got a few days. If you can’t pull it together, I’m just going to go over to Justin.” And, go figure, they kind of, you know, kicked into gear from there. And then we did a subsequent real estate deal, which was cool.

And you just know your stuff, and realtors often tell you this, you know stuff that they did not know. And you’re wildly quick in terms of, “Hey, I need a letter to put together in my offer.” And I think I timed you once, it was like four minutes from “I call you” to “I have a letter.”

Justin Humphries
It’s not always that fast, but sometimes, yeah. You catch me at the right time.

Pete Mockaitis
And so it was just wild as nine days compared to the other lender that I was trying to work with. And so, sure enough, that means I am singing your praises. It’s like, “Oh, dude, hey,” and I have numerous times, it’s like, “If you’re ever doing anything mortgage-y, you just want to talk to Justin. You just do.”

And I mean that wholeheartedly, and so that speaks volumes. Because if you were kind of phoned it in, and just kind of barely sort of kind of getting it done, but in a way that was in no way remarkable, we wouldn’t be so fired up to recommend you.

Justin Humphries
And I’d say, you know, one thing I learned early on in my career, I didn’t come up with this, I forget who did, but it was somebody noteworthy, much more noteworthy than myself. But people do business because they know, like, and trust you, right?

But they keep doing business with you because you solve problems that they have. And so that’s always been my focus is, “What’s the problem here?” whether that’s the client, the customer, or the referral partner, right?

With the customer, with you, Pete, you needed that letter in two minutes, three minutes, four minutes so that you could execute on that house. That was the “problem” right, in your circumstances. For the referral partner, it might be, “Hey, they want to grow their business, but their conversion rate is not super strong. So how can I help them convert more clients?”

Or it might be, “Hey, I want to just keep the business I’ve got, but I want to do it with less time and with less headache.” So, like, “Okay, that’s their problem. How do I work on that?” So that first step, the first half of that equation to generating that sustainable business referrals, etc., is people have to know you, right?

Obviously, marketing, top of the funnel is huge. They got to like you. You got to be likable. You can’t be rude, mean, etc. You can’t be incompetent. They got to trust you with their transaction. That’s earned. And then the second half, and the more important half, to maintain that relationship is you have to solve their problems.

And you got to keep solving them. Because there’s always somebody, and in my industry this is definitely the case, there’s always somebody knocking at the door of that client, that referral partner relationship that says, “Hey, I can do this and I can do this, and I’m going to promise the world.”

You can lose that partnership, or you can lose that client in a heartbeat if you waver in your execution. And that is not a fun experience, as a whole.

Pete Mockaitis
For anybody.

Justin Humphries
No, for anybody, right? But, as a whole, it’s like, “Hey, if you’re consistently working to execute at a high level and you don’t leave that opening for the competition to jump in there and take your client, take your relationships, etc.,” that is much better.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, why don’t we get a little bit practical, tactical, super specific on what’s executing at a high level means. Now that’s going to vary in different roles, different positions. But one thing is responsiveness. You were super quick with me, that made an impression, it’s like, “Wow, very cool.”

I remember, other times, you have known things that other people did not know. And you’ve acquired that knowledge, as far as I can tell, by you show up at the events, the trainings, and you’ve actually read a startlingly large proportion of very long, very boring governmental documents associated with loan-compliancy matters. You’ve actually read the things, and they’re huge.

Justin Humphries
Yeah. So the HUD handbook, which is FHA lending guidelines on loans, I don’t know, it’s north of a thousand pages, but I might’ve scanned that one, for the full disclosure. Scan the sections that are pertinent when needed, right?

But, again, going back to solving problems, the excellence in that commitment, going back to your original question, I think, it depends on the situation, right? So sometimes it is that communication piece of it where, “Hey, I’m getting back within X amount of time.”

Sometimes, I may be able to leverage that knowledge and expertise and guidelines and kind of the get-it-done knowhow is what I call it, right, to do things that others either don’t think they can do, they can’t do, they won’t do it, to just get the loan done.

And that’s the problem that’s solved there, where we had somebody last fall that was denied by three other lenders, I think it was, and she was about to lose this house, called me, within eight calendar days, we had her loan closed. It was just a regular FHA loan.

Any of them could have done it, but they didn’t leverage the expertise and knowledge of FHA guidelines the way that they ought to have. I don’t know if that fully answered your question or not.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, you know, that’s really good. Yes. And I’m thinking now about a physical therapist. I haven’t met him in person, but I’ve watched a lot of his videos, Dr. Aaron Horschig, of the YouTube channel Squat University. His book is called “Rebuilding Milo.”

And so he’s got these videos in which someone says, “An athlete had a shoulder problem. They went to four physical therapists and they weren’t able to fix it. But we fixed it with these two easy exercises.” I was like, “You have my attention.” And, sure enough, like that is an experience I know people have had because our bodies are miraculously wildly complicated.

It’s no surprise that a lot of physical therapists take a crack at a diagnosis and it’s not quite right, not zeroing in on the exact right little tendons or whatever. And yet, a real master of the craft is able to do it. And, holy smokes, it gets referred, like, quick.

This book has 4.9 stars on Amazon with 4,000 reviews. But it seems like the guy is, actually, has that excellence in terms of, “Hey, when this body does this, this is often the thing, so let’s try the thing,” and, holy smokes, that worked and it’s amazing. We tell everybody.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, creativity and persistence is what it boils down to, willing to dig a little bit deeper than others will, go the extra mile, so to speak. It’s a bit of a cliche, but it doesn’t make it wrong. Now we’re able to come up with solutions that others may not have thought of.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, totally. And sometimes you get it. And it’s so funny, you actually, you get pretty excited about it. Like, sometimes more excited than I care to hear about it. No offense.

Justin Humphries
That’s okay.

Pete Mockaitis
You know I love you. But you’ve probably heard this feedback before. You’re sharing what’s going down with a loan, and you’re kind of excited because, sure enough, you have cracked the code in terms of, “It turns out, what we need to do is just make sure they had a tenant in place in one of their properties so that we could then count that rental income against it. And so that gets us over the debt-to-income threshold, so now it qualifies.”

And so, but that took some extra work and thought and conversation and back and forth and questions with them, as opposed to just looking at the application like, “No income number, not good enough. Pass.”

Justin Humphries
Yeah. I mean, I know we didn’t maybe talk about going this direction, but I’d love to take it this direction if you’re open to it, that’s what’s going to separate, you know, in my field and AI universe. Not just the creativity and the problem-solving because AI is good at it, and we’ll get better better, right?

Creativity and problem-solving are half of it, and the relationships is the other half. And still knowing that this is an incredibly emotional transaction for anybody. Getting a mortgage, buying a house, whether it’s first time, second time, or fifth time, investors are significantly less emotional about it.

But, still, anytime money is on the line and you have a personal stake in it, it just feels heavy, and it’s high-trust position. Some people, some home buyers care less about that and some care much more, but those that are experts with the trickiness, I think, are going to be who’s going to be successful in the long term.

Because I’m looking at this, the average profile of somebody that does what I do is they’re in the mid fifties, they’re a white guy, and I’m a white guy, too. The thing is it’s white guys. But I’m 27, right? So they’re not thinking on a 30-year time scale of this industry more than likely like I am.

I’m sitting here, going. “Hey, is this going to be here in five, ten years?” Certainly, that’s important. I think it’ll be here in some form or another for the next 10-ish years at least. But what does the job look like in 20 years? What does it look like in 25 years? What does it look like in 30 years when you can push button, get mortgage?

You know, it’s simplified a lot since the internet, but it’s not yet at the point where it’s push button, get mortgage, right? You have some regulatory moats around the industry. But regulatory moats often get crossed and don’t last forever.

So, at the same time, as those that can make personal connections and think outside the box, think creatively understand people, in a way that I don’t think AI will ever truly be able to understand a person, are going to be the ones that stay successful for the next 20, 25, 30 years.

And, I mean, that’s a huge piece of how I’m looking to position myself going forward is, “How do I future-proof the business that I rely on, my family relies on?”

Pete Mockaitis
And when you said AI, that got me thinking about just sometimes there’s a rash of AI-generated comments in social media platforms, and I do not care for them.

It’s so unpleasant. But you’ve done this game where you’re solving problems, you’re building relationships with total strangers on social media, in terms of if someone has a situation, and then you really get into it. Like, you spend some time, you write some paragraphs about, like, “Oh, well, in this situation, consider this and this and this. You might want to do blah, blah, blah. Happy to chat.”

And, like, you’ve shown me, like, people are wowed like, “Wow, can we get on a call?” All of a sudden, total stranger on the internet wants to be talking to Justin, and that’s just good for your business.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, I mean, it’s awesome, and that’s something I only recently started doing, the last month, two months, that I’ve never even, I mean, I’ve considered it but I’ve been like, “Eh.” I looked at content, I do some content and stuff here and there, some batched-out stuff, which is awesome.

It’s mainly authority building and it’s not generating any leads, which is unfortunate, but I’m not getting anybody saying, “Hey, I loved your video. Like, can we…?” But when I make a comment on a post that’s particularly insightful, that does drive inbound leads, where it’s responding to a specific concern, “Hey, I had this happen.”

And there might be 60 comments on that post, right? And some of them are, “Hey, I would love to help. Reach out to me. Great.” I mean, so the mindset that I have going into those types of situations on Facebook, Facebook groups, marketing and networking in there, Reddit, whatever it is, is, “How much can I give away for free?”

Like, “How much value can I provide?” I want to provide so much value that, one, the OP, the poster the, of the question-comment, whatever, reaches out to me, ideally. And if they don’t, somebody else sees it, and they’re like, “Wow, that was pretty insightful,” or, “Wow, that’s a good rate,” or, “That’s a good…” whatever, “That’s a good strategy,” and I get inbound leads.

So, I’ve had several that have converted at a surprisingly high rate because you think internet lead and you think, “Okay, call center, 1% conversion, 1-5% if you’re excellent,” and that’s not what I’ve seen at all.

So it’s just a different kind of marketing and different kind of strategy where it’s “How much knowledge do I have and how much of that can I put into words and convey, even if it takes me a few minutes?” As opposed to you have some canned AI posts and comments.

So some will reach out to me and some are, like, the canned AI responses, I’m like, “That’s not even correct.” And I’ve had a couple that were AI-assisted writing when they get longer that I’ve gone back and edited, and that’s worked okay. But I’ve found, when I write it, it does convert higher. So I’m experimenting with some of that.

I don’t know if you, I know you work with Claude some, but I think it is Claude. Yeah, it is Claude Anthropic that now has a Chrome extension. So I’ve utilized Claude to basically read some of the posts in these Facebook groups, and help me respond, but always guiding and further kind of honing that response, if I do that.

We got here by talking about AI, that’s my tie back in, but it’s been particularly interesting. I do recommend, I’m not sponsored, but do recommend the Claude Chrome extension as it can kind of drive for you and post and comment and aid with that and kind of speeding it up.

I’ve noticed if I do it well, cuts my time in about half on doing those, but I’m still spending some good time with them.

Pete Mockaitis
And what does the Claude extension doing exactly?

Justin Humphries
Yeah, so Claude can read the post. So, like, if you’re on Facebook, Claude can read the posts and then you can instruct it, “Hey, read this comment. Type up a response around ABC thing, kind of making these points and clean it up a little bit,” right?

So I’ll guide it, but it’ll read the post, it’ll compose a comment, it will paste the comment in, and it will actually post a comment for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s intriguing. And I suppose if you connect that to like a real base of your knowledge inside a Claude project or whatever, I don’t know if you can, but that becomes much more substantial because I think the worst is the AI comments that actually say nothing, like, “Well said, Justin. And trust is such an important ingredient in today’s technological marketplace.” Like, you didn’t say anything at all.

Justin Humphries
You mean the patronizing AI crap, yeah. So, I listened to a keynote a couple months ago on AI, and you may have to bleep this out or not, but he had a good comment that, when you rely on AI for your strategic thinking, which I no longer do as a result largely of listening to this, you’re getting your strategic thinking, your big picture, thousand dollar an hour work or whatever hourly rate you want to assign to that, guiding your business based on what he called the opinions of the masses of asses.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I heard the subject in the study and they realized that, no matter what context you put in for a strategic problem in front of the AI, it just went with what the masses said, even if it’s a completely different context. It wasn’t actually “thinking.”

They used the term trend slop like, “Hey, that is the trend. That’s what a lot of people are saying. It sounds pretty good when you put it together, but you weren’t actually thinking. You were just grabbing words near the other words kind of around the thing.”

Justin Humphries
Well, and you lose your competitive differentiation, too, right? If you outsource your big thinking, your strategic thinking to AI, I mean, you lose a piece of that tactically. And going back to mortgage for a second.

I had a coworker recently that had, he asked me, he goes, “Well, hey, can I do this.” He goes, “Well, ChatGPT told me.” I’m like, “No, it’s just not correct. So he laughed and, well, I laughed because I’m like, “No, no, man. That’s not…” I won’t use his name.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s straight up doesn’t work with the law.

Justin Humphries
I’m like, “That is just not correct.” So now he has a file that’s DOA right now because he relied on ChatGPT to give him loan guideline advice, and this is an originator. Hopefully, he’s not a listener. But, no, I told him, troubleshot for him, and told him what he needed to do and whatever, and that I think is going to be fine.

But, yeah, you don’t want to use your ChatGPT for your strategic thinking, right? I think, inherently, we know this, but we have to retain – I’ll get off my soapbox on this here in a second – but we have to retain that which makes us human, and that which makes us competitive in the marketplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Well, yeah, that seems to be a real thing – competitive in the marketplace. Like, you solve a real problem. You bring forward revenue. That is publicly known and understood. That is published and it’s quantified and it’s unambiguous.

And, in so doing, you’ve got to put yourself into a power position, as opposed to you are not one of 600 people clicking the easy apply button for a job that they hope you can maybe do, so much as you have said, “Behold, world, it is on a matter of public record that I can do this for you. You want that done? Oh well, then maybe we can talk.”

Justin Humphries
Yeah, that’s right. And that’s been a huge, huge piece when I look strategically at my work. And I look at, “Okay, could I go through this under role that’s maybe a bit easier, maybe a bit less stressful, maybe not as high pressure?”

I look at that and I go, “There’s a trade off there.” When you’re since going from outside sales, outside loan officer relationship to inside me, like say your preferred lender works for a builders lender, whatever that might look like, you have a captive business.

Then you lose that ability to be in that power position in the negotiating table because you don’t own the book. You don’t own the relationships. You don’t own the business channels. So now I know that’s not going to apply to all of your listeners one to one, but I think you’re right on.

Like, when you can quantify your value that essentially, “Hey, you would, otherwise, not have this revenue had I not been with you, and had I not brought this piece of this relationship, this piece of expertise, this experience to bear,” and thinking about those things as you’re on the job hunt is huge.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, Justin, tell us, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Justin Humphries
No, I mean, I think we hit on it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. Well, now, could you share your favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Justin Humphries
A favorite quote has to be, and I’m not going to name the Bible verse because I don’t know it off the top my head, but it has to be that God will never give you more than you can handle.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Justin Humphries
Yeah, so one of my favorite experiments that, you know, and this is not related to mortgage in the sense whatsoever, but has been Universe 25. So, I think, it’s ‘68 to ‘73, some experimenters at the National Institute of Mental Health kind of created a mice utopia, mouse utopia, where they didn’t have any lack of food, water, or anything, so it was this perfect world. No suffering. No issues whatsoever.

So it, eventually, happened. And I’m really summarizing here, which is okay. They all went crazy and they died out. And so the lesson that I take from that is, because they had no predators, they had all abundance of food and water, everything they could need, all the space they would need, is that in the universe and in the natural world, suffering, in a sense, is universal. And not only is it universal, it’s necessary.

So that would be mine that I’ve actually applied that to my business, too, going, “Okay, I’m going to endure the suffering of whatever it is, the thing I don’t want to do, the activity that is maybe the most profitable, yet the most unpleasant activity that I could do that day. I’m going to endure that.

Pete Mockaitis
Like this podcast you’re enduring it

Justin Humphries
And that’s, yeah, a hundred percent. Like, the podcast. I’m going to endure that activity so I can have success in my business, but also because I know that in the long term, it makes me a better person. That’s an interesting experiment.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Justin Humphries
Yeah, favorite book, I’d say The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. I mean, it’s huge. I love the concept of continuous improvement and sharpening the saw from that book. It’s kind of guided a lot of my personal and professional life, of just continually doing better.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Justin Humphries
You know, it’s really simple and it strikes me as rather basic just to say it, but just having an alarm that wakes up at the same time every day, regardless of the day, you know, Monday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, I found that, I mean, it’s a cornerstone.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that is a bit of a mantra or slogan that you roll with?

Justin Humphries
It’s funny because I think about this, and one of the key mantras I find myself saying is something my dad told me when I was about five years old, I was on a football field. And as I dissected, I think about it and I’m like, “Hmm, this may not be a good thing.”

But it is the idea that if you start something, you finish it. And so whatever that looks like. Now, maybe that means that in business, you start something and you iterate, and you iterate, and you iterate, or you make the decision to stop if it doesn’t work.

But this idea of always taking the start of the journey to its completion, whatever completion that may be, I think, is huge. Just that persistence, as something I mentioned earlier, persistence. And if you start something, you finish it. It sticks with me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Justin Humphries
Yeah, so they can always, my cellphone, being a mortgage lender, is always open and public knowledge. So cellphone is the best way. Call, text, 615-438-8125. I do have a website, JustinHumphries.org. I’m sure that’ll be in the show notes as well. And an email address that I’m sure Pete will throw in the show notes. So feel free to get in touch with me at any time, all things mortgage, or any other items.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you actually say the email address?

Justin Humphries
Yes, the email address is jhumphries@loanDepot.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Justin Humphries
Just everything that we’ve talked about today. When you’re on the job search, putting yourself in the driver’s seat, creating and continually maybe keeping a record of those quantifiable moments in your job career as they happen.

So if that’s, “Hey, I improved this by ABC amount.” So kind of create and track a record so that as needed, you can draw upon that, put it on paper for the job search. I would challenge everybody to have that running record.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Justin, thank you.

Justin Humphries
Yeah, thanks, Pete. Great to be on here. Great chatting with you today.

Dec 04
0

1115: How to Earn and Keep Your Next Promotion with Mark Thompson

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Mark Thompson reveals the principles of readiness that he’s used to help aspiring CEOs get the top job.

You’ll Learn

  1. The one behavior that makes you more CEO-like
  2. Why to take on your boss’ problems
  3. The question that dramatically improves your appeal

About Mark

Mark Thompson is a globally recognized authority on CEO succession, executive readiness, and high-stakes leadership transitions. He has led more than a hundred board-level engagements to prepare C-suite successors to step confidently into enterprise leadership. He is the founding chairman and CEO of the Chief Executive Alliance and the CEO Leadership Plan Review (LPR). Previously, he served as chief executive of the CEO Academy, a SHRM company, in partnership with Wharton and McKinsey.

Earlier in his career, Thompson reported directly to founder Charles “Chuck” Schwab, serving as executive producer of Schwab.com, the first large-scale digital platform for online investing. In 2021, he was ranked by Marshall Goldsmith as the #1 CEO Coach, and in 2023 he was inducted into the Thinkers50 Coaching Legends.

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Mark Thompson Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Mark, welcome!

Mark Thompson
Hey, great to be here. I love your work.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, I love your work. I’m excited to talk about becoming CEO Ready, or just advancement ready, in general. But first I got to hear, you are the guy who calls Marshall Goldsmith regularly, asking him key questions. Tell us about this.

Mark Thompson
I mean, there’s nothing more powerful than to be held accountable about something that is your goal, and yet we don’t follow our own goals. So, we will set up a prompt that will be about, in his case and mine, “Did you do your exercise today? Did you tell your spouse that you love her? Do you make sure that you’re reaching out to your kids? Have you made progress writing the book?” “Oops!” Well, you can only lie about that for so long to a good friend.

So, there’s nothing better than to have kind of that loving critic in your life who is sharing with you the time, the kind of the precious gift of saying, “Hey, I’m going to support you. These are your goals, though, dude, because you need to show up for them.” And so, that’s what we do. We’ve done that for many, many, many years. And people will ask us, “Well, aren’t you guys supposed to be like master coaches?” And it’s like, “Well, it’s called a practice, whether you’re a musician or anything else.”

And so, what is so interesting is how you drift, and we all have that. That’s something we all have in common. So, think about that like personal board of directors or a set of people that you might think about setting up a series of goals that you’ve had for a while, and see if they can help you keep yourself accountable.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, that’s exactly what I asked Marshall. It’s like, so you’re like the Mr. Top Dog coach here and you’re saying you have a person call you every day to say, “Did I do my best to…etc.?” And I thought that was pretty inspiring in terms of we humans can all benefit from some of that.

Mark Thompson
Also I love his framing because it’s not, “Did you accomplish the task of being happy? Did you make sure that all of these things were necessarily done?” It’s really more that life is about making progress, isn’t it, towards your goals? And so, the idea there is “Did I do my best towards this particular objective? And am I making progress?”

I mean, that’s what makes a life worth living, is when you kind of feel like you’re making progress, not that you always have to have the brass ring every day. So, his inspiration really was something that, actually, very few people do, but it’s surprisingly powerful when you know you’re going to get that call.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is. Well, right now, I got a buddy who’s trying to lose some weight, and I said, “Hey, I want to try something out here. Maybe this will become a service I offer or build an empire to offer.”

Mark Thompson
Indeed.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s, “Send me a screenshot of your calorie-tracking app every evening when you’re done eating for the day.”

Mark Thompson
Darn.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, sure enough, it’s like…

Mark Thompson
Busted!

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, he knows it’s coming. And so, you know, most days there’s a pretty solid caloric deficit. And so, that’s brick by brick, that’s how you build the thing.

Mark Thompson
It is. And, you know, it’s not about being perfect. It’s about making progress. So, I really admire the idea that, if you can be coachable enough to just take feedback, not on the other person’s goals, but on yours, that’s the thing that’s amazing about it. Marshall and I, for about 700 hours during the pandemic, we had these small groups that got together, and they were at all levels, all incredibly interesting people, highly accomplished actors, celebrities, CEOs, people from all walks of life.

Well, you know, it doesn’t matter whether you’re the most entry-level executive, or you’re a person working in a call center, or a teller at a desk, it is common to all of us to aspire for things that we’d love to accomplish in our lives. And yet, without that accountability partner, we don’t actually make that kind of progress or set aside the steps or time for it.

So, I couldn’t be more excited about the fact that we’re talking about this today because that’s probably the single most effective thing we could do to be even showing up awesomely in our job, is to, let’s say, just for a moment, let’s do a little check in. We’ll do a feed forward, “What could I be doing to make your life easier, boss?”

She or he is being judged by their bosses. It’s hard to feel empathetic about that, but they also have the same nerve-wracking transitions and reviews and feedback that they’re getting. So, hey, could we go and actually ask, “How could I make your life better today? How could I make it easier? How could I do a better job of showing up for you?”

Also, with your peers, this is a way to be kind of, in a sense, CEO-like. When I’m coaching CEOs to be ready for the job, they’re highly accomplished people. They’ve been doing a lot of successful impact in their companies or in the industry. But what’s going to really separate them apart is whether you’re willing to really help the organization move ahead, whether it’s your boss, your board, or an entire community organization.

So, this idea of actually doing the check-ins, people are astonished. They’re astonished when you’re asking them, “How can I do a better job of showing up for you?” That alone gives you disproportionate and outsized points with people, “I never thought Mark would, really? He’s not going to improve at that.” Like, “Well, how could I be a better listener, honey?” “Wait, what? You’re asking me?”

And so, I’d say that that ends up being, it’s disarming as well as empowering. And the good news is you don’t actually have to do all of that stuff. You can prioritize, right? Asking is really worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly. And I am a big believer that I have been asked before and I have been the asker, and it’s magic, it’s like, “Oh, well, thank you so much. Well, let’s see.” And it’s very beautiful.

Mark Thompson
It is.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s talk about your book, CEO Ready. You’ve coached a bunch of folks and you put together this book. Can you tell us any particularly surprising or counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about us humans and becoming ready to take on the CEO job or just a bigger job?

Mark Thompson
Yes, I think that latter question is really what makes this the most profound surprise for me is because it ends up being relatable at all levels. Whenever you’re trying to, maybe, acquire the next level of responsibility, or step into the next role, or even be noticed and attractive for that next role, it’s important to do exactly what I’ve learned the titans of the world do when they’re being considered for the biggest job of their lives, running the biggest companies in the world. The very same attribute.

And it’s interesting, they often have a harder time than the most of the rest of us might because of the level of success that they’ve had, and that maybe overconfidence that they have in thinking that they’ve arrived at becoming a CEO as a destination. Your next promotion isn’t a reward for all you’ve done. It’s an opportunity to learn how you can now contribute at a higher level of skill.

In other words, the biggest surprise I learned is, no matter how far you’ve come, there’s always a little bit more to learn. And if you’re willing to ask, and if you’re willing to invest the extra time, effort, and humility to get better, that’s what you need to be promotable, to be attractive in that next job. That humility is attractive and disarming, very much like getting feedback.

And here’s the twist on it. It’s not that you’re humble because you’re afraid. It’s not that you’re humble because you don’t want to get out of bed because it’s too risky. That’s not the kind of humility related to fear. The humility has to do with being curious about what will it take to be successful at this next gig.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. Yes. And I see that connection between the humility and the curiosity is because, implied with the, “What will it take?” is the underlying assumption that, “What I’ve already been doing is not exactly perfect.”

Mark Thompson
Yeah, “I’d hate to think about it that way, so I don’t.” And if you do, the interesting thing is you get huge points for that. It’s one of the things that really differentiates people. Corie Barry, when she was being approached to think about being the CEO candidate, walking in the legendary footsteps of her predecessor who had rescued Best Buy as a Big-Box store, when he approached her, she sent him a seven-page expose, saying, “On the first page here, this is how I could really get the idea that I should be CEO, but I needed to work on these other six pages.”

And instantly almost, the board and he said, “You’re our gal.” The typical response for most folks is to either celebrate with arrogance, or celebrate with maybe denial that we have stuff to work on. And that we’re not quite ready. That’s the reason I really frame this as, “Are we ready for this?” It’s a matter of always preparing and practicing, and then having that sense of inquiry that allows you to understand what’s going to be needed next in that job.

I think a lot of people think that, as they go through their career, it kind of adds up to the next job. And now what you need to also is be kind of reaching and thinking about what is it going to take to be successful and to contribute success for your organization in that next role. I think that’s the difference, “Is it owed to me? Do you deserve it?” Probably.

“Are you ready?” No, because you don’t really know what’s going to be needed. It’s not that the boss who leaves even needs a mini me. They probably need something mini better. And that would be what, really, we found is kind of it’s both an enabler and it’s almost a secret career killer. It’s a blind spot to say that we were kind of avoiding it, being able to be talking about, “What do I need to learn for this next job?” It’s actually something that’s admired usually by leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love that a lot. We had the CEO of Korn Ferry on the show, Gary Burnison, and he talked about that very same concept. I think he might have called it, was it leadership agility or learning agility? One of the top competencies associated with successful executives is just this, like, “Huh, what do I need to know and how do I learn it?” And by being not a know-it-all, but a learn-it-all, you serve yourself very well for advancement.

Mark Thompson
Right on. I’d say that ends up being something that differentiates you from the crowd. And then also this idea that we’ve been talking about here, which has to do with being interested in making your boss successful, “What are really the attributes that has made that individual able to get through their reviews? And how are they being rated? And what’s their span of control?”

Because then, you can also do something that you’ve been hired to be in your swim lane, but to be really interesting for the next role, you need to think about all the swim lanes that would be under the responsibility of the job that you would get if you were promoted.

And so, to think more expansively and empathically about what it will take to be successful in that next job, in addition to your current one, is something that aligns you, really, as being an easier pick. They’d rather have an internal person who’s got that context and then has had the extra temerity to put in the effort, run some other drills so that they’re ready for that next job.

It’s usually something that we think is a privilege or a prize, and it’s really more matter of actually earning it again, which is why our subtitle is how to earn and keep it, is because what’s needed usually for the next person in the job that you might get promoted into is probably not everything that that person currently is doing. It’s something else, something more, something different.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and keep it is striking. I believe that there is some spooky data associated with, I don’t know if you want to call it a bounce rate, but people rise to CEO and then they exit kind of fast. Can you unpack this?

Mark Thompson
Boom. It’s been happening at a higher rate than ever before in history. The other thing that really led Harvard Business Review to approach Byron and I. Byron’s at NASDAQ, and he coaches boards and helps them. And I’m the guy who’s known to coach CEOs. And we’ve been seeing a turnover rate like never before.

And, in fact, if you see some of the research that they’ve done and others, the boards that pick a new CEO are often, half of them, are disappointed within 18 months. Not that they’re fired yet. And the level of activism, which are these kinds of shareholders who make a complaint that, “We’re not doing well enough as a public company,” will often, well, I’ll put it this way.

Five years ago, if you had a knock at the door from an activist investor, there was maybe a one in 20 chance that you’d lose your job as CEO. Today, it’s maybe 20% of the time. And if you’re at a big brand, it’s 40% of the time you’re out. So, it’s almost too late because they haven’t been expressing the alignment with all of their stakeholders, which is what we can all do at any level in our career.

This is what’s so portable about the principles of readiness that, think about all the people who have a say in choosing you for that next role, and think about all the people who have to be impressed or have to ratify the approval of you making an advancement, and see what you can learn about each of those responsibilities, each of those stakeholders.

For a CEO, it ends up being, “I need to learn about those shareholders and those pesky analysts and activists, and my board, if there’s a board of directors. I need, of course, to be better aligned with my CEO in whatever dramas she is going through or he’s going through. I need to know what the HR department’s doing, and I need to be able to think about my peers across the C-suite.”

In other words, if I’m in the job of CFO, I need to be thinking about my head of marketing and all the other people, the head of legal, the head of operations. They’re going to have to weigh in a little bit on voting me into office because I’m going to go from peer to chief if I’m lucky. And if I’m just a competitor. So, think about how, you know, often when at any level in the business, when it may be your first time manager, you are kind of, in a sense, in competition and collaboration with all of your other managers around you, your peers.

And if you’re to be picked out of the group, you can’t just be the one fighting for your own department. You have to be one who’s also seen as saying, “You know, Pete’s work is amazing, and I’m going to enable Pete’s work. I’m the better option. But I’ve got to prove that. And I’ve got to prove it to Pete, because maybe he’s not going to decide whether I get the job.” But it can often kill the prospects if you’re known as the person who’s just about me.

And so, thinking about your ascent when they’re banking the selection process is important, “How does this guy, Mark or Pete, show up compared to the others in terms of being able to play with others?”

Pete Mockaitis
Very well. Very good. Well, so I like your story about Best Buy a lot. Could you dive into another story that illustrates some of the principles and the best practices and the top things you recommend for folks, as someone who was maybe not so ready, but they dug in, they did some key things and away they went?

Mark Thompson
Well, you know, one of the people that I admire so much in technology is Cristiano Amon, who is the CEO of Qualcomm, one of the biggest chip companies in the world, known for patents, technical excellence, was running the biggest division of Qualcomm. What was so impressive about him when I did the 360, which is this idea that I’m suggesting that all of us who are listening to this program do, get some inputs from people all around you and see what you can do better.

And it’s interesting. He was actually the most insightful in self-reflection. He says that the job of trying to advance to the next level of responsibility is a job which means that you’re constantly, once you’re in your comfort zone, you’re now pushing yourself beyond it. I mean, once you feel like, “Well, we’ve got this stable. We’ve got this. Now we’re saying, okay, let’s take on more. Well, how exactly would we do that?”

And he had a wonderful way of expressing it. He said, “If you aren’t also trying to test to your edge of incompetence, I’m not sure you deserve to be here a year from now.” You need to stretch and say, “Okay, this is where I am today. I’m a mediocre trumpet player, but I just get my jollies every time I’m sent a sheet music that says intermediate from beginner. I’ve graduated. Everybody wants to be able to do that. What’s it going to take to push yourself just a little further than you’re comfortable?’”

Once again, I think we often can look at our careers as thinking we’ve done a lot of work, we’ve done it well, and we do deserve the advancement, that’s for sure. And yet this next job is going to be involving maybe getting out of your comfort zone in addition to being curious and then doing some skill building.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Okay. I like that a lot. Well, then can we walk through some key steps? So, we’ve got a mindset associated with humility and being of service and trying to help those who are higher-up succeed. And then if we’ve got that in place, what are some of the other top things you recommend we do?

Mark Thompson
Well, I’d say that one of the things that would be helpful is to think about yourself as a utility infielder. In sports, you know, that’s the person they throw onto the baseball field who can play more than one position.

So, if there are other types of opportunities, projects, collaborations with teams in other parts of the organization, in other words, kind of branch out across and see if there isn’t a way for you to get support from your boss to be able to help her or him with their reputation and the position of the department by supporting your division or having involvement in a new strategic initiative. So, you don’t have unlimited energy. You obviously don’t have unlimited time.

But to show the interest, I’d say that your punch list should be for this next year as we look at this wonderful year ahead, if there’s any resolution you had, it would be, “What else could I be doing in this current organization that would allow me to expand my experiences, my impact, my reputation? And what would those be?”

And what that does is it allows you also to test, “What do I really am interested in?” You’re going to try some things, “Oh, well, I don’t need to do that again.” Others, you might find as even another step in your career path. So, to be very intentional about setting your goals for the coming year to be one where you’re thinking about growing and getting noticed by expanding what you volunteer to do throughout the organization.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, there’s many directions, as you mentioned, that we might choose to take on and grow in. Do you have a top listing of the key things to demonstrate, or your book cover has a checkbox with a check mark in it, like the key boxes that we want to check and show others that we’ve checked?

Mark Thompson
Absolutely. So, number one is this idea that you’re thinking about the success of your boss, which we noted a moment ago. What is it that will make them successful in the year ahead? What is it that you could be contributed to that would allow them to be able to build their reputation? So that’s step number one.

Step number two is to really start to map some scenarios so that you can reach out across the department or other organizations so that you can get more experiences within that organization. Step three is to think about what kind of skill-building that might involve. Maybe you need to take an extra class. Maybe you’re going to learn something more about AI. Maybe there’s an opportunity for you to double down on a skill that you want to complete, which requires some fluency in something that you need to accomplish.

The next step is then to think about the stakeholders who are going to be making the decision, “How can I spend time with the people that I know who they’re going to ask about whether I should be advanced or not?” And start to find reasons to hit them in the cafeteria or go to lunch or spend some time with all those who have an impact on the decision that’s going to be made, those stakeholders that are so essential?

And then make sure that you are part of a regular feedback process in your organization. What I found, and you’ll see in the book, is that there’s at least two dozen types of psychological and personality assessments that people can take that are often brought in by the HR department to try to see, “Do you really have the temperament and the background that we need for the next job?”

This is definitely the case at the C-suite and the CEO level. There’s probably more tests out there than ever. And so, what I like to do is give people a sense of patience in undergoing that kind of activity of taking an assessment or getting some feedback. But it can be a gift because you can learn so much about yourself by using these tools.

You just have to calibrate for the fact that, when you do get feedback, especially from assessments, that it’s not necessarily an attempt to find the truth about you. It’s an attempt for you to become more self-aware of what perceptions you might generate in other people’s thinking about you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well said. Well said.

Mark Thompson
In other words, it’s not the truth, right? I mean, when it comes to psychology, there’s never an absolute 100% correlation coefficient. It’s really more a matter of, “So, if I’m leaving the impression that’s like this, why are people having that perception?” If you can open your heart and mind to that, and it’s not easy, that makes you really incredibly accelerate your progress quickly.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot because many times the way these tools, these assessment reports’ outputs are phrased, it’s like, “Oh, on this dimension, on this construct, on this competency, you are at a 2.3.” It was like, “Oh, no, that’s a low number. I am bad at this.” Just to remember, “Ah, the assessment is not actually capable of telling me that I’m bad at this. It’s only capable of telling me the people’s perception of me on this.”

Mark Thompson
Thank you. Yes, exactly. Right. And I think that’s the interesting thing about integrating that feedback into your life, because you might feel that that’s a statement of the facts and that might hurt, the way you’re describing it. It’s interesting how perceptions are actually harder to change on the part of others than the facts are.

You can actually demonstrably become a better listener in meetings six, seven, eight times, and on the ninth time, blurt, interrupt, get short, and then they’ll say, “Yeah, no, Mark never listens.” And part of that is on you and parts on them because part of it is that it can be a little more convenient to stereotype each other, “And he just, Mark just talks and nobody listens. That’s just how he is.”

And then, “I don’t have to really, if Mark’s my boss, then I may not have to really invest in trying to find my voice and finding a way to speak to power and scroll up the courage to talk to that person.” So, it kind of lets them off the hook, because I’m just not a nice guy. The perceptions, too, also kind of stick for the reason that we don’t practice them with enough rigor and enough regularity.

That’s why readiness is really about a practice. I mean, you know, if you’re a musician or you play a sport or there’s some skill that you’ve developed, you’ve probably noticed that you get better when you practice it. And for me, particularly, if I don’t, I atrophy really fast. So, I think that ends up being the opportunity that most people are facing. If you want to be ready for the next gig, then practice and see how you might be able to show up differently.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I’m curious, when you talk about this issue of perception, it’s tricky. We, human beings, we think what we think, we perceive what we perceive, we form opinions and judgments of others, and sometimes they’re accurate and sometimes they’re not. But, nonetheless, individuals’ perceptions will influence or decide whether or not we do advance. So, do you have any pro tips on just common mistakes that make other people think less of us that we should be on the lookout for to avoid?

Mark Thompson
Absolutely. And the context ends up being in the book, with respect to this notion of what you’re describing for really reaching out across, because if you’re going to be a chief executive, you’re going to lead a whole organization. The biggest blind spot ends up being saying that, “Because I was great at what I was doing in this part of the company, and I assume that I understand all the other executive functions in the company.”

And so, to be able to slow down and consider what is really the context in which people are expressing their value set or their needs based on, as I mentioned earlier, they might be the general counsel, they might be a lawyer, they’re going to talk a little differently than a chief marketing officer. They’re going to show up in a way that frames what they care the most about.

In the case of the lawyer, it’s probably, “Well, we need to be in compliance, and we need to make sure that people are safe, and that we don’t get ahead of ourselves.” And the marketing person was saying, “Yeah, but we need to reach everybody, and we need to be able to have impact, and we need to be able to light up people’s emotions,” and you’re both right.

And so, to the extent that you can start to be willing to learn a little bit of the language, and I talk about kind of conversational, you don’t have to be totally fluent in the language of all the other stakeholders. But I think what happens is that people will very much appreciate your interest in them. People appreciate when you ask about their functional area, when you are, we talked about curiosity earlier.

If you really show that, you get a lot of points in terms of their perceptions of your openness, your intelligence, and your appeal because you’ve talked about them, and you’ve talked about what they care about, and you’ve been able to explore in a deeper way what lights them up.

I wrote a prior book called Admired, which I have here, which is entirely about this, where we looked at the most admired people in companies. And what we found is that we all expect to be valued, respected, and admired for what we contribute. And we want to be valued, admired, and respected even for our intentions, not even what we’ve accomplished, but because we have good intentions.

And then we asked people, we did a national survey on this, then we asked people, “Well, how well have you come to understand what the people who you are relying on for that feedback, what they value, and what they’re interested in? I mean, do you know how they want to be valued and admired and respected?”

And the process of actually finding out what that is for your boss, for your peers, for the people who have impact on your boss, is an incredibly engaging and exciting prospect for…People love talking about themselves. They love talking about their journey and then, all of a sudden, they cut you slack when you share your point of view.

There’s very little of that. There’s not enough today, I think, in society of that kind of conversation of trying to understand. Steve Covey, who wrote, The 7 Habits of Most Effective People, and is famous for all of that, he used to always talk about, “Seek to understand before seeking to be understood.” And that would be game changer.

That would change the stakes, you know, “Once I’ve demonstrated that I’ve heard you and that I understand you.” I think people are reluctant to do that because I may have to, it sometimes implies that I agree with you by saying that I understand what you’re saying. And it’s not the case. And what I’m saying is, “I respect and admire and value what you’re saying. I’ll decide later whether I agree. But I’m not giving anything up.”

I think people think it’s zero sum that way. It’s either my way or your way. And I think if you consider, why it is people are thinking the way they are, why your boss is triggered by something, it’s probably because she or he is being judged by their bosses for something that you could help with that would get you promoted.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. And when you’re having these conversations to try to gain this understanding, are there any of your favorite go-to questions you love here?

Mark Thompson
One of the things that’s probably the most surprising is, “Who do they admire?” It’s interesting, when I asked you that question and I asked you to kind of form a picture in your head or your listeners right now, think about somebody that you really, truly value, admire, and respect, who you know, not just someone from history, but someone who touched your heart that you feel that way about.

And what’s nice about that is you can know a person really well and ask them, “I could ask Pete who I don’t know at all, ‘Who do you admire?’” Neither way would it be creepy. But it is actually rather intimate because people give you a very deep answer. They’ll talk about that mom who had endless patience, who supported the family and exhibited the kind of grit and effort to support to make this family successful.

And then you’ll ask them, “So, what is it about her that you’d like to be?” They’re almost always anyone you describe that you admire is someone who’s exhibiting attributes that you aspire for. And, all of a sudden, you ask this of a board member or your boss or someone that you can’t maybe say, “Could we sit down and have a deeper conversation about what drives you?” It’s like, “No, you’re not going to get that option.”

But if you ask who they admire, and really lean into it, people love talking about that person. And if you’re listening deeply, you’re going to find out that, “Wow, my boss really, okay, she really admires grit. She really admires the hours that I put in, maybe kind of even more than something else that I thought she needed.”

So, the people we admire is a metaphor for the goals and aspirations of the person you’re asking, which is something that we learned from our prior research. And it’s certainly true for great CEOs who go from having one boss, a supervisor, to 12 bosses, the board. And so, they have to do that with everyone, “Who do you admire? What’s driving you? What are you looking for in my job?” And those are the ones that get the job and keep it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mark Thompson
“You’ve got to be the change that you wish to see.” Often, that’s attributed to Gandhi. I don’t think that’s actually a precise quote from him. But to role-model what we’re seeking or hoping is a very hard and high standard to hold yourself to. And yet that’s what really is the most convincing.

If you’re going to be in a position, in a role right now, where you’re asking people to do things, well, how are we showing up that represents that so that ends up being a reinforcement, not hypocrisy? So, that’s one, I think, that’s very powerful in leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
And can you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Mark Thompson
Yes, we did a study on one of the most surprising attributes of who you can stand to work with. And many situations in which people work, collaboration is really, really hard. And one of the studies that was conducted by Bonita Thompson, actually at Vanderbilt, who owns the construct in collaboration, found out that you can actually work with someone you don’t like, but you can’t work for somebody you don’t trust, and there’s miles difference between the two.

Because there’s plenty of times where we’re working with people that we don’t exactly feel great about being with. You can’t always like everyone all the time. But if you feel like you’re in a situation where there isn’t that bridge of trust, that there isn’t kind of at least a mutually held trust that we’re both sharing the same goal, that’s an absolute game changer in terms of demotivating folks to work together.

I think a lot of folks find that surprising. It’s like, “Really? You can work for somebody that you don’t like?” I think that’s really important to understand, because the circumstances of work today are certainly stressful enough that that can often be the case.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And a favorite book?

Mark Thompson
My favorite book was Contact, actually.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, about the aliens?

Mark Thompson
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. So, I was like, “So, is that about networking or building relationships?” “Oh, no, that’s the alien movie.”

Mark Thompson
I knew you wouldn’t see that coming. I thought it would be obvious or not be obvious. What’s interesting about that one is, actually, there actually is a way to segue anything back to the dialogue of leadership, right?

Because we talk about wanting innovation, we talk about wanting to have out-of-the-box thinking, and I think often the reason most organizations and most of us actually have a hard time innovating is because it feels a little bit like you’re talking about little green men or something that is not relevant, and so we instantly reject it.

And we don’t see what, you know, if we dig a little deeper, while we’re hoping for creative change, we’re hoping for innovation, sometimes, you know, once we hear it, we reject it so soundly that we never do advance. And I see a lot of organizations lose their way because they don’t take a little bit more of a Star Trek approach to saying, “Okay, it’s not here in the known universe or in physics, but if we really want to innovate, if we really want to be creative with something, we start there.”

My most actionable fun book on this topic, it was Creativity, Inc., where the folks at Pixar talked about making billion-dollar bets on movies. I mean, that’s the riskiest thing. And they always started there. They always said, “Okay, we’re going to hold our brainstorming sessions in three rooms. And the first room is going to be the one where “no holds barred” on the creativity.” So as crazy as it could be.

There’s nobody shooting anything down there, and they capture all that. It’s not until the next session in the next room that they start to curate, “Okay, so how do these ideas fit with what we’re good at doing and what we have the talent here to do, and that we think that we could accomplish in the time that we have?” And then you start to winnow it down to those framings.

And it’s not till a third meeting where you’re saying, “We’re not doing that. We’re not doing that.
We’re not doing that. We’re just doing this. We’re just doing this,” and they start to winnow it down. I think we close too early on our brainstorming sessions. And do that with your career. Think about kind of what would be the boldest thing you could do in the new year and how you might go about it.

The critics aren’t invited to that first meeting. It’s really more about you continue to imagine, because the self-critique and the critique by others doesn’t usually get you to first base or even second base. So, let yourself go nuts about the year that’s coming forward, and then think about then how to get a little more practical about how to operationalize that in the context of a real life, and then set it into goals going forward.

And that’s how I’ve found the highest achievers, those who become CEO-ready or ready for the next gig, kind of, are able to open their heart and mind and start to really put a plan together, because you deserve that. You really do deserve that if you aspire to be ready.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Mark Thompson
The tool that I use to be the most awesome thing in my job was the 360. Get one, have one, be a part of it, make sure that you get the regular feedback in all directions. I always had to breathe deeply to realize that maybe not all the feedback I got would be ideal. And it’s always been an unlock. It’s always been an accelerator. It’s always been something that allows me to kind of get better faster than anyone else when I was wanting to be promoted so I could get noticed.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Mark Thompson
The habit is gratitude. It’s not something that we naturally, or at least I naturally, leap to every day. Be grateful for the people and the opportunities you have. Actually, Hubert Joly, going back to the Best Buy story, he said, “Pressure is a privilege.” If you have the pressure of doing something really hard, that’s also an opportunity to be kind of grateful for that, “Well, I’m getting a chance to do this. It’s hard. It’s really challenging, but I get a chance to really make a difference.”

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that people quote often and you’re known for?

Mark Thompson
What I’m known for is you can’t really scale your organization or scale your ambitions any faster than you can scale yourself. You’ve got to be able to invest in a way, in yourself, before you can expect it ever to be an outcome in that wonderful, cool company of yours.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. And, Mark, if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mark Thompson
I’d point them to ChiefExecutiveAlliance.com or just look up CEO Ready, which is just being released.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mark Thompson
I think that you deserve a promotion in this next year. Map a plan. Think about that as strategically as your biggest project and get some loving critics around you. Get some feedback, and most of that from your boss, and then put it in motion. That’s what you deserve.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mark, thank you.

Mark Thompson
Thank you.

Sep 04
0

1090: How to Get Recruiters to Compete for You with Madeline Mann

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Madeline Mann shares insider tips and strategies for landing exciting new career opportunities.

You’ll Learn

  1. The resume mistake high achievers make
  2. The simple tweak that dramatically nets you more inbound opportunities
  3. The interview hack that makes you sound like an expert

About Madeline

Madeline Mann is an HR & Recruiting leader who spun her insider knowledge of the hiring process into an award-winning career coaching empire, called Self Made Millennial. Mann is now known for turning job seekers into Job Shoppers, to enable any professional to land high-paying job offers for seemingly unattainable roles. Her clients have landed at companies such as Netflix, Google, Goldman Sachs, Deloitte, NBC Universal, Amazon, and more. She lives in Los Angeles.

Resources Mentioned

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Madeline Mann Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Madeline, welcome!

Madeline Mann
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat. You’ve got so much good stuff on YouTube and elsewhere, talking career searching, job hunting, interview, answering. So, we’re going to talk a bit about some of the goods in your book, Reverse the Search: How to Turn Job Seeking into Job Shopping. Can you share with us, as you’ve spent all this time working in this field, what’s one of the most surprising and fascinating discoveries you’ve made or the advice you share that folks are genuinely shocked to hear and they thought it was the other way around?

Madeline Mann
Well, when I worked in human resources, I was the one who ran every hiring process. And something stood out to me is that it wasn’t the candidates who, necessarily, had the perfect background or the Ivy League education that made hiring managers trip over themselves to get them a position. There were certain candidates who were able to use certain approaches that allowed them to make the company compete for them.

So, they would say things like, “Oh, we need to hurry up the hiring process so we can get this person.” And, even, I worked at companies where we didn’t have these giant Google budgets, right? We had tight budgets, and we would go over budget to get certain candidates, even though they might not be, like I said, the perfect-on-paper candidate.

And so, that is the thing that really sparked the idea for this book, is that people don’t realize that on the other side of the table, these companies, when they find a candidate that they really like, they will compete for that person. And if you can find the ways to start enticing these companies, even if you’re a career-changer or an unconventional candidate, that they will go above and beyond for you.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, this is funny, and this is reminding me of the most random of things. I’m thinking about the book, Neil Strauss, The Game, talking about pickup artists, and they try to adopt this mindset, like, “No, no, no, no, I am the prize. I am a high value,” whatever. And they use a number of tactics, which aren’t so reputable, and I don’t imagine you want to neg your employer, your prospective employer, or maybe you do, Madeline.

Madeline Mann
You don’t want to neg.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, “Google is okay, I guess. It’s no Open AI.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that’s actually kind of a really interesting misconception because they think, when I say, “Ooh, reverse the search. Go job shopping,” that suddenly you have this air of entitlement and all of that or negging, as you say, where you’re kind of taking company down a peg of, “I have other options. Like, what do you have to offer me?” It’s actually not that way at all.

It’s more about understanding exactly what the company needs and kind of taking your ego out of it, not talking about the details of your complicated career journey, but instead, focusing on, “Okay, what does the company need? How can I fill that need?” And knowing that you are the right person, you can make it happen, showing them you can make it happen, but also having this strategy where you are having opportunities come to you in a way that you don’t have to move into desperation mode.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, how does one, in fact, truly learn what they need? Because sometimes the job post, job description is kind of thin. It’s kind of generic. It might even be written by AI. I’ve had a buddy who does interviews, he’s like, “They said they wanted all these things in the job description, but then when I started using the terms, they seemed to not understand them in the interview. What’s going on here?”

Madeline Mann
Unreal. I totally get it. And, yes, so you’re right. The first place to look is the job description. That’s kind of where you start. And if you’re not able to unearth enough there, you can start also doing some research. If it’s a marketing role, sign up for the company’s email lists and look on their website. If it’s a customer success role, report a ticket or do something like that. If it’s a product role, interact with their product or see even how they talk about the product on the website.

If it’s human resources, read other job descriptions, read Glassdoor. Like, there’s just a million ways to actually explore a company and understand what is the state of that role in some ways. Now, really, where you understand what a company needs and is looking for is in the interview. Now, sometimes you can get around that by doing informational interviews ahead of time, talking to employees, but, really, the key is no one’s expecting you to come into an interview process being like, “Boom! Here’s exactly what you need.”

But what you can do for the first interview is do what I call a T-chart, which is essentially where you were to take the job description and you would match each of your past experiences to what is on that job description. And if there’s anything you’ve ever done, any skills you have that don’t meet things on that T-chart, I don’t want you to talk about it, unless you’re asked about it. But, too often, we volunteer additional information.

If I’m going into a car dealership, and I say the most important things are the color of the car and the size of the cup holders, do not tell me about the engine and the trunk space, right? So, that’s really the idea here. And then as you go into later interviews, you’re asking really good questions to where, if you were to land the job or had to start the job tomorrow, you would ask questions almost like a consultant, where you’ve understand the state of the projects you’d work on, what are their tools, and you could actually start to build a plan of how you would execute that.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. And that car example really resonates in terms of when sales folks don’t give you what you want to know, it’s frustrating and annoying. It’s like, “I want to know the price and I don’t want to know the history of your founder.”

It kind of ruins, it kills a lot of the excitement real quick. And so, likewise, I could see that we, as a job seeker, might be doing that. It’s like, “Well, no, no, no, I did a really cool project. I got a really big impact. And so, you got to know about it.” And it’s like, “Yeah, well, that’s cool, but that’s not actually what we’re into over here.”

Madeline Mann
Well, what most people do on their resume is that their resume is their best accomplishments. And I would like to challenge your audience to stop doing that. Stop putting your best accomplishments, unless what you did in your most recent role is very perfectly in line with the exact role you’re going for next, then that makes sense.

But if the role is slightly different, which a lot of high achievers tend to pivot roles that are a little bit different, they want to learn something new, so it’s fairly common to go to a different role that’s maybe, you know, just a parallel role, you should start thinking about, “Okay, let me prioritize my accomplishments of what is most relevant.”

And you may delete the biggest, juiciest project you worked on. Let’s say you had a role where you did tons of different things. You’re going for a project manager role, but one of the things you did is you closed a $3 million deal with Pepsi. Okay, that’s a business development accomplishment. That is not a project management accomplishment. That fabulous deal is not going to make it onto your resume.

And people, sometimes they’re mourning their past job experience because they say, “Ooh, but it was so good. I was their champion at everything.” If there were project management elements of that project, sure, share those. But that accomplishment itself is distracting.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. mourning is the word in terms of, “I worked so hard on this. I poured so much of my blood, sweat, and tears, effort into it. And now it doesn’t even serve me here?” And I guess the truth is it does not. And sharing it will make it serve you even less. It can be counterproductive. And, especially, as I think about resume space as the line as the fundamental unit of currency there. And maybe you can give a quick hot take on how long can our resumes be?

Madeline Mann
Yes, there are so many opinions about how long a resume should be, and I will put it to rest. It doesn’t necessarily matter how long your resume is, but it should only have extremely relevant information. And when you go through the glory formula, which is in the book, Reverse the Search, I’ve seen so many people where their resume shrinks, and it does shrink to one page.

And that is the interesting challenge of, if you kind of challenge yourself to do it to one page, and definitely do it to two pages, you’ll realize, “Wow, I put a lot of things on that resume that didn’t need to be there.” I put that I was CPR certified to do an accounting role. I don’t need to put that there. So, there’s just so many things that we need to take another look at, because more information is not more helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, to this, we’ll zoom out in a moment, but you just keep saying enticing things, I can’t let go. So, CPR certified, understood, that’s not really relevant. Often, a resume will have a section sort of like interests or hobbies or whatever. And some would say, “Oh, that’s kind of nice.” They can get a little bit of a picture of your personality on, like, one line. What do you think about that?

Madeline Mann
I like it. I think it’s good because people hire people, okay? So, that line is really a moment for you to connect with the interviewer and it’s not guaranteed. Now here’s a guaranteed way to waste that space. If you say generic things like, “I like travel,” “I like to try new restaurants,” “I like to spend time with my family,” things that are, literally, just so foundational that there’s nothing to hold onto there.

What if, instead, you say, “I’m obsessed with Thai food,” “My favorite place to travel is Fiji,” “I have four sons.” Right? Like, saying something about where it’s specific, where, if I also have a bunch of sons, I might reach out to it, or, “I love Fiji too,” or, “Thai food is great,” like, blah, blah, blah.

Now, there’s no guarantee that the person on the other end is going to connect with any of those things, but it’s guaranteed they’re not going to connect with them if they’re hyper-generic.

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, that’s the craziest thing. I also enjoy sunshine, Madeline. That’s crazy.” Okay. Well, we’re having fun here. Maybe let’s zoom out and, perhaps, could you share with us a story of someone who really internalized this mindset shift? They did some different things and saw a cool result because of that.

Madeline Mann
Absolutely. I think about one of my clients, Brittany. So, she was having trouble in the job search. She was very well qualified for the roles and she had a human resources background, which you’d think, “Oh, she hires people. She knows the behind-the-scenes.” But it’s wild how job searching is a completely separate skillset from actually being good at your job.

And so, she was kind of struggling to get interviews, and it all changed where, first of all, I think a lot of us really underestimate the value of LinkedIn. She started getting outreaches on LinkedIn when she optimized it, right? Doing the right things on the profile. And I do go into depth in that in Reverse the Search.

Another thing is she went through an interview process, got to the very end and was rejected. And I think this is really important for people to hear right now because a lot of my clients get rejected. But I’ve been called the Comeback Coach because a lot of them still land offers at companies that reject them. And I think that this is a really important learning for people, is that a rejection is not the end of the road.

If you’ve had an interview with a company, you have networked with them. You now have a relationship, and they have actively shown you with their time, with their effort, that they value you. So, you have to put that in your pocket, and say, “That’s a win for me.” So, this is what Brittany did. I worked with her to say, “Okay, you had a great relationship with this hiring manager. Let’s keep cultivating it.”

So, I helped her to, like, continue the relationship. We also got what I call kind of like decoy offers, like, I try to get clients even offers that they don’t want, and then bring those offers to the employers that you’re really excited about. Tell them about it. And that’s what she did. She was like, “Hey, I have this offer. I’m getting farther in this interview process. Do you guys have any open roles coming up? Like, I want to work with you the most, but I have this opportunity.”

And that hiring manager was like, “We are going to have an open role in a couple months, but you know what? I’m going to push that forward and make that happen now.” Because, suddenly, everyone wants the candidate who, first of all, is building great relationships and, second of all, is highly desired in the market.

And so, she was able to then kind of speed through that, like, second round of interviews with this company, get the offer. She earned 40% more than her last salary. She told me, “I don’t even want to negotiate because this offer is so good.”

And that’s another thing, is that if you’re job shopping, if you’re using these methods through the interview process, negotiation becomes not that important because companies will nearly almost always give you the top of their range because they’re like, “Just take it. Like, please join us.” And so that’s what happened for her.

And so, I really want to emphasize that to anyone kind of going through this tough job market is, again, like, I think this is a good example of you have a lot more influence in the process than you think. People view a rejection as them being powerless, but she spun that into a massive power and landed the offer.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. I like that a lot. And I have witnessed that, in my world as well, in terms of, “Oh,” I worked at Bain for a while, and they say, “They got an offer from McKinsey. So, if we want him, we better move quick.” And they do. It’s like, “We got interviews on Fridays. Well, you’re having an interview this Friday, not a month from now,” which was previously thought it would be.

And it’s true. I think, especially in, I’m thinking about Bob Cialdini, who’s on the show, talking about influence, the notion of scarcity, as well as social proof, like just human psychology here. Like, it’s sort of ambiguous, “Is this person going to be great at this role? I mean, I hope so. They seem like it. Oh, but someone else really wants them. Okay, well, there’s some validation. I guess there’s another indicator that the odds are good, they’re a winner.”

As well as scarcity, it’s like, “Oh, oh, we better move quick or we’ll lose them.” And so, what a great place to be if you are in that position and everyone else that they’re talking to is not.

Madeline Mann
Yes, exactly. Exactly right. There are psychological principles that come up there that are as old as time. And, exactly, that scarcity, that competition, and a lot of people don’t realize that budgets are malleable, timelines are malleable, like, companies will say certain things or certain ways, but companies also understand that hiring is an art just as much of a science.

And people think that companies are just inundated with exceptional talent, and that’s actually not the case. When you find someone who’s a great talent, has a great attitude, personality, skillset, you want to keep an eye on them. You do want to hire them, and you don’t take that necessarily for granted.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s maybe walk through it step by step in terms of, let’s say, “All right, I got a job and it’s okay, but it’s still not quite doing it for me in terms of I’d maybe like a little bit more money, a little bit more flexibility, a little bit more cool teammates, a little bit more impact.”

You know, it’s sort of like, our jobs are fine but we have a feeling that there’s something that is substantially better out there for us. So, we say, “You know what, let’s just go for it. Let’s just start looking around.” What would you say is the step one, two, three to embarking upon job shopping as opposed to job seeking?

Madeline Mann
So, there are short-term, medium-term, and long-term options. So many job seekers hunt, right? So hunting is basically where you kind of go out, there’s a role, you try to hunt it, and it runs away. Just like hunting, right? Like, if your prey runs away, then you kind of have lost out on it, and it’s that. That’s why you need to also have farming aspects of your strategy as well.

So, if you were just now going to embark on the job search, first of all, I would start farming, first of all. Like, let’s start tilling the field. So, first of all, the most important thing is get extremely clear about what is your next career step. Too many people skip over this. They’re like, “Well, I have a lot of different skills.” I call them kind of like the mosaic job seeker, where they’re like, “I just have so many different beautiful parts of me,” which you do, but you need to get clear.

Then your messaging needs to be extremely clear on your LinkedIn profile. And then there’s likely some profession and/or industry-specific job boards or networking sites where I would get your branding, your resume, whatever it is, on those, too, because I want those to just be magnets for opportunity. A lot of my clients report over 50% of their interviews coming in just inbound. They’re not applying, just companies coming to them.

So, that’s why we say, like, “Just get yourself out there on the internet, and let those things come into you,” because, especially, if you’re employed, you don’t have a ton of time to reach out to people. So, get that branding good to go, okay? Then I want you to start warming up that network.

First of all, talking to people in your network, and then, of course, reaching out to people at certain companies. So, having a target company list where you’re starting to network there.

Now let’s focus on the hunting, right? So, let’s now look at what jobs are out there. What is actively hiring now? So that’s the reactive job search process, where you’re reacting to what’s out there on the market. And with that, we need to be quick and precise. We’re seeing a lot in the job market right now, that you do want to act quickly when a role opens because these roles are highly inundated.

But also, especially as you move up in your career, as you’re getting more advanced, focus more on relationships of, like, making sure that that resume actually gets read, versus simply just submitting it online. So that is where I would start to kind of have this multifaceted, both short-term and long-term play for your job search, to maximize your time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so then, when it comes to some of the particulars, like, get the branding good, what perhaps are the top two or three action steps that are just tremendously useful per minute we spend on them?

Madeline Mann
Right. So, we’ll focus on your LinkedIn profile, because while I did talk about there’s other places you can do this, let’s talk about LinkedIn because that really is the number one place that recruiters are looking for talent.

Too many people think that their “About” section is important and their cover photo is important. None of those things are unimportant, but people spend so much time on those that I would say throw those out the window. Like, let’s focus on them much later. Instead, let’s focus on what is actually moving the needle of showing up in searches.

First of all, you’re probably not surprised, your headline, okay? Your headline, I think there’s two different ways to approach your headline and, too often, if you’re using AI to create it, they’re usually telling you, like, “Make a clever statement about who you serve, and stand out that way.” Here’s the problem there. I think that a clever statement is good if you’re doing a content strategy and building a business.

So maybe you might say, you know…

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m a snack marketing ninja with an emoji.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Bring snacks. Yeah, snacks to everyone you know. Yeah, exactly. So, not like that. It’s better to be like digital marketing specialist in the food and beverage industry, right? Like, something like that where it’s like, “Boom! Okay, got it.” Like, that is what I’m buying as an employer, because what recruiters do is they search for keywords.

I’ve done a ton of sourcing in my career, in my recruiting. I’m highly familiar with LinkedIn’s backend of what that looks like. So, you need to make sure that you’re findable. The people who are getting all of these interviews, such as my clients, they’re not necessarily more talented than you. They’re just more easily found.

And so, we are not thinking about the SEO of your profile. So, making sure you’re getting the right keywords on there and the right elements. And people also are afraid to put it in industry because they’re afraid to pigeonhole themselves, but industry profiles, industry-specific profiles, get far more clicks and interest.

Someone who’s just in marketing versus someone who is in marketing for food and beverages, that’s completely different, more specific skillset that is going to attract more attention. So don’t be afraid to be specific.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then the headline is huge because the way the LinkedIn search algorithm is operating. So, if someone is searching for a digital marketing person in food and beverage, if you have that kind of thing in your headline, then you’ll be super findable relative to not. And I guess there’s some tricky nuances in terms of, “Well, this is what I’m doing now, but I want to do something different later.” I guess that makes it tougher as to, “What do I do with that headline there?”

Madeline Mann
Yep, you can’t focus your headline on what you did in the past. It has to be what you want to do next. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Or, what you want to be doing. Because, like, you’re not like, “If I’m a digital marketing specialist in food and beverage, but I want to be a digital marketing specialist for video games, I cannot say that I am that right now, though I want to be that.”

Madeline Mann
Well, here’s the thing. We always have to put ourselves in the mind of the employer, okay, “How can I be employable in video games? Well, I should start, you know, maybe doing some pro bono work for an indie video game shop, right, or something like that. Or even create my own projects.” And you need to build that experience even if it’s just a few hours a month.

And then you need to claim it on your headline because it is actually unkind to put in your headline, “I worked in food and beverage,” and then someone contacts you in food and beverage, and be like, “No, I’m not pursuing roles in food and beverage.” It’s just like an unnecessary piece of information that you’re now attracting the wrong person.

It’s more kind to say, you know, “Video games,” and then you’re attracting that opportunity and you can show them how you’ve been upskilling in that industry, how you have been an immense student of that industry. And so, now you’re attracting the right opportunities. That is more kind because now it’s easier for companies to match up to you properly versus you sending these mixed signals into the world.

Pete Mockaitis
And maybe I’m just getting a little bit hung up. So, then in this scenario we’ve dreamt up together, with the headline, “I’m a digital marketing person in food and beverage. I want to be a digital marketing person in video games,” what do I do with that headline?

Madeline Mann
I would put video games. I wouldn’t put food and beverage.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then I guess I’m a little worried then in this world, it’s like, if my boss sees this, like, “Hey, man, what?”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, oh, that’s true. So, if you’re currently employed, you’re right, I think that would raise some serious eyebrows. So, I would, in that case, remove industry. Remove industry from your headline. But you really should be showing some video game expertise on your profile. It could be that you write an article on LinkedIn. It doesn’t matter if there is one person reading it. Your brother-in-law is the only one who reads it or something like that. It doesn’t matter.

It really is just about, “When I get to your profile, I can tell that he is extremely intentional about moving into this industry,” because it scares employers so much if they feel you have not done the work to make this pivot because they do not want to be a career experiment where you think, “Oh, yeah, maybe I’ll do this industry, maybe I’ll do that industry, maybe I’ll do this job title, that job title.”

They hire you, and you realize, “Ooh, actually, this wasn’t exactly what I wanted,” or, “I’m actually vastly underqualified and I didn’t actually, like, do the work myself to get up to speed of another candidate.” And then they feel really disappointed in the hire.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. So, for get branding good, we’ve got LinkedIn showing off in the headline as much as we can, what we’re after, as well as in the other places, “Hey, I posted an article,” maybe, “I I’ve done some pro bono work for a studio and that’s listed there,” and that’s cool. Tell us more about getting branding good. I was specifically interested in that notion of, “Hey, you can just go ahead and do some free work for a company there and mention it.”

And I think that that is fabulous. We had a woman on the show, Kristen Berndt, and she had a dream of working in airline baggage operations, which I thought was funny as a very specific dream and a passion of hers. Like, she read all these articles on it, and it was amazing to me.

And so, she started a blog about these matters, like, “Hey, here’s the latest rankings on baggage performance,” and her analysis of what she thinks is going on, and why United went up or down in the rankings and some new technologies they’re using. And, sure enough, like, she got the job in that career-switch area because nobody else has a blog about airplane baggage operations, “You got the job, Kristen. Congrats.”

Madeline Mann
That is a perfect example, and, yeah, exactly. It doesn’t matter how many people read that blog or anything. She was showing that she has a growth mindset, and a lot of people don’t realize that is the biggest currency of this current job market. It’s not years of experience. It’s not wisdom. It’s not tenure. It’s ability to evolve and constantly learn, because 25 years of marketing experience doesn’t actually mean anything if you’ve lived the same year of your career 25 times.

You need to be up-leveling. You need to be learning new things. And so, just like she is, she’s showing her that she is very on top of things. She is passionate. And so, exactly, I mean, I have a client, she is at Harvard PhD and was so disappointed to enter the workforce and realize that she wasn’t really desirable. She wanted to work in market research for public companies.

And so, I worked with her to tap, I have a bunch of business owners in my network, me being a business owner myself, and I had her make a list of the type of market research she was willing to do pro bono. So, she was like, “I can do an analysis of your customers in this way and that way.” So, she made a list and I sent it out to a group of business owners.

And I said, “Does anyone want to take her up on this?” So, I had a couple of business owners say, “Yes.” And now she has incredible projects on her resume. She’s showing these employers that she was able to take what she did as a researcher at Harvard. And now she actually has real-world results.

And it’s not about her breaking her back to do 60 hours a week of work. She’s probably doing four hours a week of work, pro bono. But people are spending tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars, on education, and they’re spending so many hours a week doing these things, where you could spend so much less time and money just doing a little bit of pro bono work, getting the evidence on your resume and then having the ability to talk about that.

And a lot of people aren’t doing it because it’s not the paved path.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot. And I’m also thinking about just showing up at events, because you learn so much so quick when you’re talking to all the people doing all the things in terms of…I’m just thinking about Podcast Movement I’ve been to over and over again. And so, if you are interested in maybe getting into the podcast world, but didn’t have a lot of experience, well, by golly, you’re going to know all sorts of things that the uninitiated were utterly clueless about, like, three days ago.

You’d get an education on what is absolutely cutting edge, modern, top-of-mind concerns for people in this space, and as well as connections right there, like, “Hey, now I know some people and who know other people. Away we go.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. And making those connections, learning, yeah, attending those things, consuming information, and regurgitating it back. And just claim it as your own, right? If you learn something about the podcast industry, then just, like, integrate that into the questions you ask people of the podcasters, or anything like that, or, “I’ve noticed this or that.” Just really internalize these things.

And I even have a lot of my clients, as part of their interview prep, I have a very short document that people use, where people are like, “Whoa, this interview prep you tell us to do is so much more brief than the interview prep I normally do, but yet it’s highly more effective.” And one of the things I have them do that almost no one does as a preparation for their interviews is I ask them to find a podcast specifically on their profession.

And you’d be amazed. I have so many clients of, like, super niche job titles and there is like a YouTube video out there, there’s a podcast episode out here. And you know, like in podcasting, you can get incredible people saying, basically, the most rich and factual things, but it’ll have like four views, right? And so, it’s amazing what you can find out there.

So, then they’re able to take that information that either helps them to grow their mind about their profession or further confirms the things that they already felt about their profession, helps them to crystallize in interviews, and show them as more of an expert, more of a thought leader.

And, literally, just that one action has helped land a lot of my clients, job offers, because they’re like, “Whoa, I’m communicating so much better in my interviews because I sound like I really have deeply thought about the big picture of this industry and my profession because I’ve listened to some thought leaders and done that preparation.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And I might say, while you’re at it, feel free to reach out to the podcast guests. Many of my guests have said, “I’ve heard from so many of your listeners on LinkedIn,” and they’re so wonderful. It’s like, “Well, thank you.” Thank you, listeners, for being so wonderful, and so, yeah. And, especially, if you have a real thoughtful comment, compliment, follow-up question, folks generally like that, as opposed to a fake compliment, segueing into sales pitch. We have enough of those.

Madeline Mann
Yes. And that’s the thing, is people go on podcasts, on YouTube channels, because they want to have that effort that they put into that interview be heard by the world, right? They don’t go on to hope that no one hears it. So, the fact that you are reaching out, you’re giving a compliment, that you’re asking a question, that is absolutely welcome. So that’s one of the best possible things.

Like, if you’re trying to get your foot in the door at a company, try to find these micro influencers at the company, just people who post on LinkedIn every now and then, or people who are on podcasts every now and then. They don’t have to be your hiring manager. They don’t have to be a recruiter. They don’t have to be someone in your department.

Literally, those people, if you can just listen to what they did, read their article, they’re going to be so grateful that you engaged with it, that you found it interesting, that that is such an effortless way to network. It’s crazy. And so, that is such a good way in.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true, yes. If folks really pour some thought and effort into an article, an interview, a post, and they have, like, crickets of response, like a couple people give it a like or, “Good article, Madeline,” and that’s about it, and then there is some authentic engagement from a human being, who found that interesting and insightful, valuable, and has a follow-up question, well, it immediately provokes the answer, “Wait, who’s this person?” Like, you’re immediately interested in that person because, like, “No one else showed any interest in me. This person did. I like them and I want to know all about them.”

Madeline Mann
Yes, people think, “I have nothing to offer this person. What can I give them?” Literally, like, your interest, and even people hitting like on a post, giving comment, showing that interest, even if you have a tiny network or a tiny social media following, like I bet you, if someone was consistently sharing your podcast episodes, like you probably wouldn’t even care how big their following is. You probably just notice them over time and say, “That person is awesome. Like, I appreciate them.” And it really is quite flattering.

So, yeah, I think it’s such an important thing that, even just taking time to notice people, I say that in Reverse the Search, it’s not about knowing people. It’s about noticing people. You don’t have to have this big network, but if you’re really great at noticing people, noticing what they’re contributing to the world, what makes them great, what makes them interesting, you are going to never want for a job.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Well, boy, we could talk for hours. But, Madeline, could you share with us a couple of your top do’s and don’ts that we haven’t hit yet here?

Madeline Mann
First of all is, folks think that aiming lower in their job search is easier. So, like, let’s say you’re sending out resumes and none of them are hitting, you think, “Well, why don’t I just go to roles that I’m super qualified for, I’m 130% qualified for?”

What I found is that that’s actually harder to land than maybe a role that is obviously perfectly aligned with you or even a role that’s a little bit of a reach for you. Because companies are terrified that they’re going to have to pay you too much, that you are going to get the role and you’re going to get bored really quickly, you’re going to ask for a promotion, you’re going to leave until a better job comes.

And, truthfully, I’ve seen that happen a lot at companies where people say, “Oh, no, this leveling is totally fine for me.” And they prove the company right, that it was not a right fit. So, first of all, don’t aim. If you’re going to aim anywhere, aim a little bit higher instead of lower, even if you’re a career-changer. You don’t have to go to the bottom of the rung of a career ladder if you’re career changing.

Second of all, there’s this idea that keeps permeating, that is the idea that the job search is a numbers game. And, especially now that application numbers are getting higher and higher because more and more job seekers are using AI, your friends and your family will often give you terrible advice of just apply more, more, more.

And I just have, I mean, I have a bunch of examples in the book and I have hundreds more from my clients where they just shifted the way they approach things, started going after a half a dozen, maybe a dozen roles, maybe a couple dozen roles, and landing interviews at most of them. And so, when you shift your approach, you actually find that, in a world right now where everything is so impersonal, doing more impersonal things at scale is actually the slowest way to job search.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Yes, that makes a lot of sense because you might have more numbers, but the percentage is so super-duper tiny that it’s not really worthwhile, even though, “Oh, this was easy to apply to that job.” “Yeah, that’s what the other 3,000 people said.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, and I would say, you know, it’s so tough to sit here and give advice because all of your listeners are unique and have different situations. I would say, if you don’t have any interviews at 10% of the applications you’re sending out, there’s something wrong, okay?

So, for some of us, we are perfectly qualified for these roles, we have great companies on our resume, we’re applying within the first 24 hours, and we are landing 10%, 20%, 30%, 40% of the job opportunities. If that is your strategy and it is working, please continue. But if you’re kind of doing all those things and it’s below 10%, something’s up. And, like, probably the high-volume job search, the way you’re going about it right now is not a good approach.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love a benchmark number. Thank you, Madeline. That’s handy. Tell us, any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Madeline Mann
One of the most important things right now is the job market is challenging. It’s really the worst job market I’ve seen in my career, and I want to say that because I want to tell your listeners that it’s not in their head.

But yet, I also sit in a position where I am seeing job seekers land not only one offer, but multiple offers all the time. So, I see this firsthand. So, I just want you to know that it is possible and, really, they’re just going one step above. Like, they’re just doing maybe one more step than you are, but they’re doing it strategically.

I was talking to someone on TikTok today, where they said, “Well, what if I get rejected from a no-reply email? I guess I’m out of luck.” Job shoppers don’t stop at a no-reply emails, right? Like, I just need you to start shifting your thinking of instead of seeing obstacles, see opportunities.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I just can’t let that go. So, let’s say, we applied and I got a no-reply at Craft.com, and they say, “Peter, thank you so much for your interest. Unfortunately, we have chosen to move with a different candidate,” dah, dah, dah. That’s that. What do I do there?

Madeline Mann
Yeah, so if this is truly just an application, right, you have not had any sort of correspondence with the company, you could find their general email, like, the “Hello” at their website. You could find the recruiter email, you could find the hiring manager, and people are like, “But how do I know who’s the hiring manager? How do I know what their email is?”

Those things, first of all, you’re guessing. Second of all, it’s fairly easy to guess also people’s email addresses. There’s lots of tools online that can find them or, also, it’s usually their first name at the company website, or their first initial, last name. There’s a lot of ways that it’s pretty easy to figure out.

So, spend, you know, two to five minutes finding an email address, following up, saying, “Thank you so much for getting back to me. I am bummed I missed the window for this role because I was very excited. Should anything open up or should this role open up again, I want to let you know that I’m extremely interested in it, going forward, and I wish you all the best. I’ll be rooting for you from the sidelines,” something like that.

And I remember, I got an email like that once when I was hiring a role, and I would either get silence from rejection emails or hatred when I was working in recruiting because people are very sensitive when it comes to rejection.

Pete Mockaitis
They actually say that out loud. Okay. Huh?

Madeline Mann
Yes. And so, for someone to say, “Hey, you rejected me. Just a heads up. Like, you all are a top company that I’m interested in. So, I’m going to keep up with you.” That stands out. So, what did I do with her application? I put it in the future potential bucket of my ATS. When that role opened up again, she was one of the first people I reached out to. She interviewed. She even got to one of the final rounds.

So, just know that, again, where others see obstacles, you need to see opportunities. And all these people are, like, imagine me opening up the role again, not putting it online, simply interviewing some of the candidates I had already interest in, and then she gets the role, that’s the hidden job market right there.

Because I wouldn’t have opened the role again if she fit it, and I could just interview her and not have to go through all the folder all of like, you know, evaluating all these applications. People don’t realize that these are some of the ways that you’re cutting the line in the job search.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Madeline Mann
“A healthy man has a thousand wishes. A sick man has only one.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And now a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Madeline Mann
I am a big fan of Cialdini. His book, Influence, was one that just completely transformed my life. I read it in high school, and it’s really transformed. He actually did a study, where he found that one of the best questions to ask in a job interview is, “Why did you bring me in here today? What made you feel that I was qualified to be here today?”

And he proved that that question was influential in getting the company to start rationalizing why that person is a good fit.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is a great question. And it gives you valuable information, it’s like, “Oh, okay. I thought it was this other thing. I’m not going to talk about that. I’m going to talk about what you said.

Madeline Mann
“Yes, I’m going to focus on that. Yes.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Madeline Mann
I love Multipliers.

Pete Mockaitis
And a shout out to Liz Wiseman, a former guest on the show. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Madeline Mann
I use a lot of Evernote. My entire business is really based on me putting out value into the world, and value can come in inspiration of client conversations, of podcast interviews.

And so, to have somewhere easily accessible that I’m writing down all of my ideas, keeping them organized, cultivating them over time. So, just, you know, it’s a very simple tool, but that one’s been really helpful for me to just track all of these thoughts that are bubbling in my head.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Madeline Mann
I always use a notebook. I am constantly writing in my notebook and it’s filled with to-do lists. And I probably go through a notebook in, like, a couple weeks. And something about having my to-do lists written down, and even just, like, often in conversations, I’ll write down notes.

Writing down notes is part of one of the secrets to, I feel, like, my success, with my being organized. But to have things just, like, written here, keeping my priorities very clear for the day. Checking them off is so gratifying. That is my favorite habit.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Madeline Mann
“Your resume is a sales page, not a Wikipedia page.”

Pete Mockaitis
I like it. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Madeline Mann
I would say, find me at MadelineMann.com. You can find me there. You can also find me all across different social media channels, YouTube, “Self-Made Millennial,” LinkedIn, all of that. But, yes, MadelineMann.com as a core hub.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Madeline Mann
“What’s the best that could happen?” Okay. I want you to think of that every time you go out of your comfort zone, where it’s comfortable, it’s crowded. So, get uncomfortable in the job search. And every time you do something that feels a little funky, reach out to someone new, just think, “What’s the best that can happen?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Madeline, fabulous. Thank you.

Madeline Mann
Thank you.

May 27
0

965: Why Your Boss Isn’t Advocating for You…and What to Do About it with Dr. Nicholas Pearce

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

Dr. Nicholas Pearce reveals the hidden reason why many high-performers don’t advance—and provides candid solutions.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The harsh truth behind why many don’t advance
  2. Why even a great mentor is no substitute for a sponsor
  3. How to find support if you aren’t being supported

About Nicholas

Dr. Nicholas Pearce is a Chicago native and vocational multihyphenate who has committed his life to creating social impact at the intersection of the academy, the church, and the marketplace. He is an award-winning organizational behavior professor at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management, Founder & CEO of The Vocati Group, a boutique management consultancy, and a respected faith leader. He is also the author of the bestselling book, THE PURPOSE PATH: A Guide to Pursuing Your Authentic Life’s Work.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Dr. Nicholas Pearce Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Nicholas, welcome.

Nicholas Pearce
Thanks, Pete. Good to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to be chatting with you. You have so much wisdom in so many domains, but my producers originally found you from your phenomenal Harvard Business Review article called What to Do When Your Boss Won’t Advocate for You. And it sounds like you struck a nerve with this one, Nicholas. What’s the scoop here?

Nicholas Pearce
I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with. People long to have great mentors and great managers who are invested in their success and care about them as humans. But if there’s something that we learned during the pandemic is that a lot of leaders don’t care about the humanity in us. They view us as not human beings, but as human doings.

And for those who have managers who don’t really care about them, don’t care about their forward progress, or won’t bring their name up in rooms that they’re not able to occupy, it creates a challenge to figure out how to navigate your career and your life forward when you recognize you’re lacking that sponsorship.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, Nicholas, coming strong right out of the gate. I love it. So, they don’t care about our humanity. That’s a strong sentence and yet it seems accurate. It’s not that they wish us harm actively, but it’s just kind of like, you know, at the end of the day, you are a means to producing a thing, and that’s a fairly prevalent attitude. If you had to hazard a guess, what percent of managers do you think fall in the humanity-affirming versus humanity-eh column?

Nicholas Pearce
That’s a hard number to guess at, but I can tell you that most corporations, based on how they are structured, tend to look at people as products, even the language of human resources or human capital. Human capital was, I guess, designed to be something of a more humane way of saying HR, but when you think about human capital, putting human capital alongside physical capital or financial capital, these are resources that are under the control of the organization for the organization’s purposes, not things that have lives of their own to be valued.

So, putting people in the thing column, I think it’s very, very common. And, unfortunately, most folks who have been in the working world for any amount of time know that while HR may sound like they exist for the people, most HR departments exist to shield an organization from lawsuit. So, HR typically is not really there for you. HR is there for the company.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Telling it like it is. So, just for funsies, is there a language that you prefer to use when it comes to organizations and people, like, the people department or learning and development? Like, what are the terms you like to use?

Nicholas Pearce
I love the concept of people and culture. Having an executive leader who is primarily responsible for the development and wellbeing of the people in the organization and the stewardship of a healthy culture, I think that language works well. I think learning and development, as you mentioned, Pete is great because it focuses on the value added to the people and their development. Anything that does not make it sound like the organization owns or controls assets. That type of language, I think, has its own limitations.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Nicholas, I just love where you’re rolling. And I know, in your background, you are both a business school professor and a pastor. And it’s really beautiful to kind of see how the thinking interplays here in terms of just even the words we use, we can find irksome or even dangerous.

Nicholas Pearce
That’s exactly right. I think words have power and words should be used with intention. And I think the words that our organizations and corporations have used over the years are reflective of the desired intention. And as we begin to deconstruct some of those harmful ways of thinking and being in workplace life, we have the opportunity to refresh not only our perspectives, but our language as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, lovely. All right. And we’re just getting started talking about advocacy. So, we’re going to say this word a lot. Maybe since we’re talking words, could you give us some definition? When we talk about having a boss or someone advocate for you at work or advocacy, generally speaking, within work, what do we mean by that? You said speaking up for someone when they’re not in the room, that’s something, got a ring to it. Are there any other dimensions of that you’d highlight?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. So, I think about advocacy as the act of sponsorship, and I juxtapose sponsorship against mentorship. So let me describe the two and contrast them. Mentorship is having that person who will coach you, who will pull you aside and say, “Hey, I like what you did there. Maybe a little bit more of this next time, a little bit less of that.”

Maybe they’re going out to coffee with you once every couple of weeks or every four weeks or every quarter. They’re there to help you navigate. They’re there to invest in your development. They care about you as a human. They care about your performance. They’re trying to invest in making you a better you.

Sponsorship is altogether separate. Sponsorship is not so much about making the direct investment of time in giving feedback, and having lunch regularly, and having coffee, and giving micro corrective feedback. Sponsors are people who are opportunity creators. They are career accelerators and catalysts of opportunity. These are individuals who are bringing your name up when you’re not in the room. And as is often said, 80% of what is said about you is said when you’re not in the room.

So, for many people, especially women, people of color, and others who tend to be excluded from a lot of opportunities in many work environments, they tend to be over-mentored, “We’ll give you a coach, we’ll give you feedback, we’re going to make you a better you,” under the guise that the reason you have not ascended is because you need to be made better.

But what they really need are sponsors, people who are willing to say, “Hey, did we consider giving Nicholas that opportunity? Did we consider giving Jane that promotion? What are the reasons why we’re holding her back? Are we saying she lacks ‘seasoning’? What exactly do we mean by that? Does she need to add paprika and stir? Like, what are we saying?”

The people who are willing to do the blocking and tackling to make sure that organizational politics or bias don’t derail your career, those are your sponsors. And so, many people are over-mentored, but under-sponsored. And so, the whole concept of advocacy speaks to an individual using their credibility, their capital on you to advance you and your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so then can you tell us, it’s like, “Okay, boys, it’s really important that we have people speaking up for us when we’re not in the room,” how would we even know the extent to which this is or is not happening since we’re not in those rooms?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. You can tell, one, what your boss is saying to you offline. Do you and your manager have a relationship where feedback flows naturally and continuously? Or are you in a situation where your feedback comes mostly in the form of a formal annual or semi-annual review process during which you get blindsided with feedback that sounds off-base? If so, that could be a warning sign that your boss is not going to bat for you when you’re not in the room.

Do you and your boss enjoy a collaborative relationship? Or do you feel like your boss is competing with you? If your boss competes with you, because perhaps they view you as a threat to their advancement, or as a threat to their supremacy, they’re probably not advocating for you.

If you’ve been in a role for three or five years, and there’s never been a conversation about what your future looks like, I mean, let’s be for real, Pete, if you’ve been in a role a year or two, and there hasn’t even been a conversation about what your future looks like, that may be an indication that your boss doesn’t care what your future looks like, and that they’re certainly not advocating for you and for it at tables that you may not even know exist in the organization.

Pete Mockaitis
Nicholas, I love what you’re saying in that it’s very candid and blunt, and I think some of us don’t even want to entertain the belief that this harshness, reality is present when we’re hearing a lot of nice things.

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. I have been in spaces personally and have coached leaders, and employees, students of mine who had all the raw ingredients, I mean, had all the learning, all the degrees, all the certifications, all the skills, all the receipts in terms of high performance, and yet found themselves stuck. And what happens for many people is that it’s the ultimate gaslighting. You’re left to wonder, “What did I do wrong? What did I not do right? Is it me? What am I lacking? What do I need to change? Am I too much? Am I too little? Do I need to turn up, turn down? What is it that’s wrong with me?”

And a lot of us wind up falling into cycles of anxiety and depression because we have been trained at a certain level to believe that the problem is always us. And what I’ve discovered is that there are a lot of people who are incredibly gifted and incredible contributors and collaborators who just run into managers and bosses who don’t know how to lead, or don’t know how to be humane, or are insecure.

And because this continues to do incredible damage to people in an era and a season where mental health needs are already at their highest, I feel at some level, Pete, that the truth will set the people free. And to release themselves from the fear or the feeling that they are not enough and to, perhaps, sometimes release their boss from the expectation that they will be a good advocate when perhaps they don’t want to be or don’t know how to be.

Now, I do have to rush and add this, that if you’re just a chronic underperformer, these words don’t apply to you. Like, you need to do better, right? But if you find yourself consistently meeting or exceeding expectations, you’re knocking the ball out of the park, so to speak, on a consistent basis, everyone can see your brilliance and your promise but your boss, maybe it’s not you. It might just be them. And they’re not perfect people. They’re people, they’re not perfect, but it is your life.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m wondering, if folks find themselves in this position, they might feel kind of stuck. Could you maybe give us a bit of hope, a bit of inspiration, a story of someone who saw a transformation in this department in terms of advocacy wasn’t happening and then it kicked off and good things unfolded?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. One of my coaching clients had this very scenario happen, where the boss was really great in terms of giving mentorship and guidance and coaching and feedback, very warm relationship, their families got together on weekends. I mean, it seemed like a really healthy relationship on one level, but they recognized that, at a certain level, the boss really appreciated them being in that role. Because, let’s just say they got their TPS reports in on time every time, and the concept of losing that individual to another team or to a higher level, perhaps in a different business unit, would create issues for that boss.

And so, that boss, at a level, was conspiring to suboptimize that individual by being nice, being kind, keeping them happy, but not giving them the growth opportunities that they deserved and needed to continue to fulfill their potential. So, this individual had the conversation with their boss and said, “Hey, I really enjoy being on your team. Help me see what future could look like. Help me see what next can be.” And that opened up a healthy conversation where the boss kind of came clean and said, “I knew this day would come. And I’ve really enjoyed having you on the team.”

And they kind of came clean about how there were opportunities that existed in the organization and they were waiting on that individual to come forward to raise their hand and say, “Hey, I actually do want to grow. I don’t just want more money. I don’t just want autonomy. I don’t just want flex hours. I actually want to grow. I want to be able to be my best and become even better at a higher level in the organization.”

And so, that conversation actually opened the door for the boss to advocate because the foundational relationship was in place, high performance was already acknowledged, and so this was just an invitation to the boss to move from mentor to sponsor.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Understood. And I like what you say there. It’s not necessarily evil. Like, they have warm feelings about, it’s like, “No, this person is so amazing. I feel so blessed,” and delighted to have them on their team, but it’s just a little bit of selfishness, which we all are subject to. It’s like, “This is so amazing. I don’t want this person to ever leave.”

But, again, you know that it’s a finite clock. When there’s someone amazing in a role, it’s, like, it’s only a matter of time before they go to a bigger role. And I think this is the way of all things. I think we had a handyman who was awesome and someone said, “Oh, he probably should increase his rates.” And I said, “Inevitably he will.”

Nicholas Pearce
That’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
“Because we are aware of his awesomeness.”

Nicholas Pearce
Exactly. We don’t want to be the ones to tell him that, or we’re happy to tell him as long as he keeps our rate unchanged, right? But this is exactly it. This happens a lot, you know, Pete. It happens in the nonprofit sector a ton, where you have long-serving executive directors or CEOs or presidents, they’ll be in the seat for 25, 30, 40 years. And they’ll have a talented person underneath them in the organization, who everybody within a mile can see has CEO or executive director capability. But that CEO recognizes, “I’m 55, and I have no intention to retire anytime soon.”

“So, because there’s only one CEO at a time, and I intend to sit in this seat for another 10 to 15 years, I have a choice to make. Either I invest in you becoming the very best you can be, which means losing you, or I continue to suboptimize you to make you question whether you have what it takes to be in my seat. But because I’m not ready to give up my seat to you at this time, now I’m not advocating for you. I’m not bringing your name up in the marketplace because I could lose you, and you fulfill an important part on this team. I value more what you produce than who you are.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Nicholas, you are just touching on exactly, I think, some eye-opening stuff for a lot of people, like, “What’s wrong with me?” It’s like, “Oh, this is what’s really going on under the surface. Understood.” So, lay it on us, if we find ourselves in such a position, what do we do about it?

Nicholas Pearce
Well, one very practical thing that we can all do is to look for advocacy elsewhere. Your boss may not be the only advocate you can get in your organization. Ideally, you’d have a direct supervisor who could go to bat for you because they know your work most closely, but there are other influencers who can give you the boost you need. There could be someone in the organization that is even more high ranking than your boss.

Maybe an ally who might bring your name up. Maybe it’s someone you met in the context of an employee resource group. Maybe it’s someone who you met at the company holiday party. Maybe it’s someone you ran into at a company-wide task force. Maybe it’s someone who, when the time came for the company’s intramural softball team to form, they were the person you rode to the games with. Who knows? But there are other people who can speak to you and can perhaps be an accomplice, a co-conspirator, if you will, in advancing your cause and advancing your career.

Another really helpful thing, and this is something that’s hard for a lot of us, is to build our networks outside of our organizations. For many of us, we may be socialized to feel that is disloyal or underhanded or somehow strategic in the most nefarious sense, but I believe that, what I call 360 -degree advocacy, is a gift that we should all take advantage of. We’ve got advocates above us. We’ve got advocates beside us who are our peers. And we can also have advocates in our direct reports.

Not underestimating the value of people beyond your boss in your organization can be helpful, but also people outside of your immediate workplace who may be LinkedIn connections, or are part of professional associations, or alumni groups, or other civic and community service outlets. Those individuals can speak to your promise as well and may be able to help create opportunities for you outside the organization.

And sometimes, as the saying goes, folks won’t miss the water until the well runs dry. And sometimes you give people the gift of goodbye, and it doesn’t have to be messy. It can just be an investment in self. Investing in yourself and your future does not have to be self-ish, right? Because at the end of the day, let’s face it, Pete, if someone lets you sit on the bench for 10 years and they never advocate for you, that’s 10 years of your life that are down the drain.

And they’re not going to come to you at the end of those 10 years and say, “You know what, Pete, I’m sorry you wasted your entire 30s.” It’s going to be on you to make up for that lost time. And an apology is not going to do it. You owe it to yourself. I was having a conversation with a group of executives who are whining and complaining about Millennials and Gen Z being disloyal. And I said, “Listen, y’all can complain and moan about that all day long until you recognize that companies aren’t loyal like they used to be. Unless you’re giving Gen Z a pension, which you’re not, the company’s already said, ‘Ah, we’re not really loyal to you.’”

If you say in your HR policies, that in order for a 401k or 403b to be fully vested, an individual has to work there three years, you’re telling them from the outset, “We’re investing in you, sort of. Until you’ve been here a while, we’re going to claw back part of the money we’ve invested in your retirement.” So, all of these are signals to individuals that companies aren’t loyal. And so, if companies aren’t going to be loyal to their people, how can you expect people to be loyal to their companies in the way that they were 75 years ago. The rules of the game have changed. And so, it’s not about being disloyal or selfish. It’s just about being smart.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that absolutely resonates. And that was kind of my philosophy when I started my career, it’s like, “I don’t think I can count on any employer long-term ever.” So, it felt kind of mercenary. It was like, “What can I do to make sure I have skills to do anything?” And I was like, “Strategy consulting seems like a good choice out of undergrad.”

And so, and I think it was serving well with developing some skills and some network and some savings to then go do entrepreneurial things. But, Nicholas, I got to hear, when you dropped these truth bombs on these executives whining about the Millennials, how did they reply?

Nicholas Pearce
Oh, they got it immediately. I said, “Listen, all of the participation trophies and all that stuff is cool when it’s your kid or your grandbaby out there on the soccer field getting the little trophy because they put their cleats on the right feet. But when they become your employee, all the participation trophy stuff, where you’re getting rewarded for effort, that goes out the window. It goes out the window.”

And so, recognize, that it was not the Millennials and Gen Z that made participation trophies. It was the uncles and aunts and moms and dads and coaches who could not handle walking away without a shiny object because they showed up and tried their best, and the participation trophy industry was born, but Millennials didn’t demand it. It was the world into which they came of age. They understood it as an expectation. And if Gen X and Baby Boomers had not put participation trophies in the lexicon, Millennials would not expect them in the workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. So, we’re getting a lot of good contexts from all over here. So, build the network outside the organization. Any other top tips you’d recommend? If we find ourselves not having that advocacy, what else should we do?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. One of the most common cliches that I have heard that I actually believe has truth underneath it is that sometimes rejection can be protection and redirection.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. It rhymes too.

Nicholas Pearce
And so, if you find your manager not advocating for you, it could very well be an intentionally closed door that is designed to push you in the direction of purpose. This is something that I talk about a fair amount in my book which is entitled The Purpose Path: A Guide to Pursuing Your Authentic Life’s Work. And what I find is that, in many cases, the adversity that we may face, whether personally from a health perspective or otherwise, or even professionally in terms of doors that are slammed shut in our faces, sometimes that adversity is actually the grist of discovering purpose.

Oftentimes, people think that the purpose that we have in life is to just be happy. And I’m not the happiness police. I’m not anti-happiness, Pete. However, I have discovered that, oftentimes, it is those painful circumstances that push us into a place where we discover purpose that we would never have discovered before. And so, while many of us want to organize our lives around the avoidance of pain, if we avoid pain, we actually may be avoiding purpose.

Now, I’m not saying we should be trying to attract pain. Hear me clearly. All I’m saying is that sometimes when a boss doesn’t advocate, when a door closes, it could be a catalyst that is pushing you toward purpose and protecting you from calamity that you had no clue was coming your way. So, really embracing the moment in a different way and reframing it as not so much, “This is a flaw in me,” but perhaps more, “This is giving me an opportunity to reflect, to retool, to perhaps even take a break and rest and really think about how I connect my soul with my role.”

“Maybe I was just doing a job, earning a nine to five paycheck, doing the things, paying down my student loans, making the moves, doing the things. But now I actually want there to be meaning in my work. Yeah, I’ve got skills. Yeah, I work for the big shiny company with the stock options and all of the trinkets. But now I actually want to do something with my life that matters. I want to have purpose in my work. I want to connect my soul with my role.” And maybe that closed door was the catalyst to get you to see that purpose is calling.

Pete Mockaitis
That was well said. Well said. Well, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about a few of your favorite things?

Nicholas Pearce
Sure. I think that as much as we often think about what happens when others don’t advocate for us, I think that it’s important that we recognize our responsibility to advocate for others. Oftentimes, it’s very easy to think about what your boss is or is not doing for you, and you’re absorbed in what’s happening over your head, and you’re thinking that you are the main character in the organization story, and you are not.

Many of us don’t advocate for others because we’ve never been advocated for. And while that may be understandable, I don’t think that’s a valid excuse. We have to be intentional about lifting as we climb, not having the crabs-in-a-barrel mentality where only one of us can be advocated for at a time, “And if it’s not me, that means you win and I lose.” I think this zero-sum game mentality, this fixed-pie thinking is eroding the fabric of society.

And so, I think for as many people who may be attracted to our conversation today, because they find themselves in spaces where they weren’t getting advocated for, perhaps being the leader you wish you had can be a very important part of your life’s work and your own personal scorecard in terms of how you evaluate your leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Right on. And now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Nicholas Pearce
“Weeping may endure for the night, but joy comes in the morning.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Nicholas Pearce
A favorite bit of research that I love talking about is this vintage study that was conducted by Kathy Phillips, Katie Liljenquist, and Maggie Neale. They’ve done this study looking at the power of diversity to help teams win. And the science on this from over 20 years ago is quite clear, that diverse teams can outperform homogenous teams when the task calls for creativity, innovation, information-sharing, and tackling complexity. This is a well-stated, well-worn vintage research finding. It is not a part of the recent DEI movement. This is pure science from back in the before times that many organizations know about but haven’t really embraced.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Nicholas Pearce
Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Nicholas Pearce
Sabbath.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Nicholas Pearce
Favorite habit is prayer for me. It’s time to really refocus.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; you hear them quoted back to you often?

Nicholas Pearce
Yeah, oftentimes, it’s really in the space of this purpose conversation that we started to explore a little bit toward the end. And it is the fact that you owe it to yourself to live a life on purpose. You were created with a purpose. You have a reason for being. And you owe it to yourself to discover that and to do something about it.

A lot of people say that they are reflecting or meditating or praying for purpose because they need clarity on what their purpose is. And for some people, that is truly the case. But there’s a significant percentage of people who I think are probably with us today, Pete, who don’t need further clarity. They need more courage. And once they acknowledge the fact that they’ve got the clarity they need already, the missing ingredient is courage, now it’s their move.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Nicholas Pearce
NicholasPearce.org is a great place. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, social media, Facebook @napphd. I also have a TED Talk that folks have been enjoying entitled, “Don’t Ask Me What I Do.” So, any of those spaces will be great to connect.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Nicholas Pearce
Be the change you want to see. If you feel like you’re not getting advocated for, advocate for someone else. If you had a terrible onboarding experience, make someone else’s onboarding a little softer. If you feel like it’s time for you to pivot from a job, don’t be messy on the way out the door. Embrace the gift of the lessons you learned in the previous season and take the high road and walk out with grace, not looking at that past experience as time wasted, but looking at yourself perhaps as an alum of that organization or institution, and always seeking to do your best, no matter where you find yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And, Nicholas, this has been fantastic. I wish you much good advocacy and purpose.

Nicholas Pearce
Thanks, Pete. Likewise.

May 15
0

865: The Universal Principles of Successful People with Dave Crenshaw

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Dave Crenshaw says: "Fail early."

Dave Crenshaw shares valuable insights on how people succeed, gleaned from his guests on The Dave Crenshaw Success Project podcast.

You’ll Learn:

  1. One thing every professional should learn
  2. The trick to multiplying your career opportunities
  3. Why to take that risk now—not later

About Dave

Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world.

Resources Mentioned

Dave Crenshaw Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Dave, welcome back to the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Dave Crenshaw
Hey, Pete, I really appreciate it. It’s very generous of you to have me come back again. What is this, the third time?

Pete Mockaitis
I think so. I think third time is the charm, so the first two that we botched, we’ll, hopefully, redeem ourselves.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, Dave, I’m intrigued, you are up to a whole new project, and, in fact, your name is on it, and I hope it’s successful. It’s called The Dave Crenshaw Success Project, a podcast. And we talked about this back when you were just conceiving it, and it’s fun that it’s up and out in the world. So, I first wanted to hear a little bit of the story. You pursued this project not with the goal of advancing your empire as an expert, speaker, course creator, dude but something else. What’s the scoop here?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. Well, so those who aren’t familiar, I’ve written books and I’ve got courses, over 30 courses on LinkedIn Learning. I know you’ve got, gosh, a lot more than that and you’ve been very popular on that platform. And I do speaking as well, but what I wanted was something that inspired me and scratched the itch that wasn’t required by making a lot of money.

And I had a lot of different versions, and I think you and I had some conversations about different things that I could pursue but what really moved me, the thing that got me going was the idea that I want to create something for my kids. So, I have three children. My son is 17, I have a daughter who’s 13, and another daughter who is 10, my youngest, and I thought, “I want to leave a legacy to them. What could something that I can create to help them be successful but, at the same time, other people will benefit from?”

And that’s where this idea of The Success Project came from, and if I were to sum it up in a sentence, it’s that I am getting the stories of others, and you’re one of those people, we did an interview, to learn universal principles of balanced success. So, I know a lot of times in a podcast interview you bring someone on who has a book, they have a course, and you’re going to discuss that, and I think that’s great.

My goal is a little bit different. I bring someone on and I want to hear their story, and in their story, I want to figure out “What are the things that would make any person successful? And how can we apply that to ourselves? How can I apply that to my kids?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, hey, I’m all about universal principles, so, indeed, this is a great fit here. And so, I’m intrigued then, your kids, they also play a role in the production, I understand.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, the first and the most fun one is my daughter Darcy, who’s 10. She reads the outro. It’s the cutest thing you’ve ever heard in your life. It’s completely unfair for me to put that at the end because you are powerless to resist it. And my son, he does the editing, which is wonderful because now I can pay him as an editor, which helps him prepare for college.

But the fun thing that I’ve also started doing, I don’t think I had started this when you and I did the interview, Pete, is we’re doing bonus episodes where we’ll sit down and have a conversation about a principle that we learned. So, for instance, one person I interviewed was Tahani Aburaneh, and she was a refugee in Jordan, and she went from that situation to being a millionaire in real estate. And she talked about how gratitude was so essential for her success, and how her mom taught her to be grateful even when they were in these really, really difficult conditions in a refugee camp.

And so, I sat down with my kids and said, “Let’s talk about gratitude. Let’s talk about how we can be more grateful and some ways we can implement it.” So, I’ve got the regular episodes that we release where we’re hearing these stories, but then I’ve decided to have a little fun with some bonus episodes with my kids. And that’s sort of why I chose the title that I did because The Success Project is open-ended enough that it gives me a lot of latitude to try a lot of different things that will help the listener be successful and help my kids be successful.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. Well, so lay it on us, Dave, what are some principles that have really already popped off the page? Let’s hear, how many interviews have you done, first of all?

Dave Crenshaw
I’m around the 20-interview mark. So, gosh, what do you have, 2,000?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks, 860-ish.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, okay. So, I’m an infant learning to crawl at this point, but I’ve started to see some really interesting threads, and I’ll start with one that I did not expect at all but it makes sense when I say it, is the importance of studying business. It is amazing to me how many people I’ve interviewed who maybe do something that is different than business.

For example, Angie Ford is one person. She owns several music schools and daycares. She studied piano, that’s what she wanted to be, was a concert pianist but, for some reason, she was interested in business and got a minor in it. And because she did that, that enabled her to be successful as an entrepreneur. And I have seen that one thing repeated over and over, whether or not that was their primary interest, someone took the time to study the principles of business and accounting and marketing and sales.

And so, I’ve told my kids, and right now, it’s kind of funny. Right now, every single one of them wants to be a writer. I did not expect that either. And so, I tell them, “Hey, study whatever you want in college, but the one requirement that I’m going to make of you is that you have to at least minor in business.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, the business skills are handy in terms of there’s just a business side to everything. No matter what you’re doing, whether you’re a baker or doing music or daycare, there is a business side. And whether you’re the owner or somewhere lower within the hierarchy of things, having that understanding is common and handy.

Dave Crenshaw
Right. Even if you’re a middle manager in a Fortune 500 company, and you’re hired to do one specific thing, let’s say communications, understanding how the company operates, and understanding cashflow and the things that determine a stock price and all of these things, they make you more savvy and more able to understand and read the tea leaves, so to speak, about what is going to be coming in the future.

And I think that you don’t have to go to college to study it. I think that, I mean, certainly listening to this podcast, someone who’s made the commitment to do that, already that says a lot about their character and their desire to learn. I think that you could start reading books. I think that there are certainly courses on LinkedIn Learning that will help you learn these skills. I would carve out part of your schedule each week, each month, to give it some attention.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious about some of your favorite resources, like learning business. Business is quite an umbrella that… is it fair to say that you’re saying a general survey understanding of management, accounting, finance, marketing, strategy? Is that what you mean by learn business?

Dave Crenshaw
Correct, yeah. Whether you took that in college, whether you’re getting it on your own, you’re saying, “Hey, I want to get a good understanding.” I know one thing that’s been really helpful for me in my career is economics. I’m turning and looking at my shelf right now. I’ve got a couple of books about economics, one called Basic Economics.

And sometimes we’re always looking for the next new title that’s going to give us some cool principle, and that’s great. I built my career on books like that but I think there’s something to be said for digging down into the fundamentals. And I recommend taking the time to drill down on some of just the fundamentals because those will influence how you perceive things that are happening in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig that. Is that Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, it is.

Pete Mockaitis
I have that book. It’s a little thick. I haven’t finished it but I loved one of his points, which was to evaluate policies not based upon their intentions, because they’re all good, all policies have good intentions, but rather upon the economic incentives that they create for the different players and stakeholders.

And that made a whole lot of sense when I read that, like, “Oh, yeah, I can see how sometimes, when things don’t quite work out,” I think rent control was an example he used. It’s really helpful to put yourself in the shoes of each of the players there, like, for example, the landlords and see, “Huh, given this legislation, what might they be more or less inclined to do because they’re going to be affected by these new set of rules?” And that was a big lightbulb for me, actually.

Dave Crenshaw
Yes. And see, that’s beautiful, and that says a lot about you, the fact that you would remember that principle from reading that book. And just understanding that, if you’re in a managerial situation, now you’re going to say, “Oh, if I change something, what’s the effect on the individuals that are following me?”

And that nugget of knowledge is so basic and it’s so fundamental but it’s so useful in the same way that water is useful to our physical survival. It’s a basic, it’s a fundamental, and we want to at least spend a little time consuming those things. My career, The Myth of Multitasking, a big influence that economics had for me was the idea of microeconomics and switching costs. That’s my love of economics, and learning it is what led me to help people with time management.

And someone listening to this might have that same experience with accounting, and they enjoy that concept of first in, first out, or whatever the principles are that they’re reading, and they can make that a part of being a bricklayer. That’s a terrible example, but they can make that, those principles a part of any career that they have.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it can help you get an understanding of all sorts of mysteries. You mentioned brick laying, one of my great mysteries, Dave, is why home renovation professionals, whether the electricians or plumbers or masons or whomever, it seems like historically I’ve had a heck of a time finding someone who would actually show up and do things. And then when you do find a winner, you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, you are my plumber for life,” “You’re my electrician for life.”

But I think the principles of economics can help illustrate that. My leading theory right now is, “Hey, Pete, you are a small fry with a small job, and it takes me lots of time to get over to you and to the hardware store, etc. to get a small amount of revenue versus there are people with much bigger jobs, which take me the same amount of time and to get there and get the materials, and yet produce a whole lot more moolah for me and the team to take care of business.” That’s my current theory, at least.

But without an understanding of economics, I might just be…well, I guess I’m still frustrated because I don’t have a plumber or whatever showing up, but at least that demystifies that or inspire some ideas, like, “Huh, maybe I can work with a contractor and bundle a lot of stuff at once so I would be a more appealing customer in a world in which they could be pretty choosy when there’s not as many home renovations pros as there is a demand for their services.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, that’s a great example. And to kind of put a bow on this, I think what we want to do is say, “How does this apply to me?” I think the tendency of most people, and I’ve seen this in my coaching and training, the tendency of most people is to listen to new knowledge and say, “That doesn’t apply to me. Well, I’m going to ignore that part of what I just read because that doesn’t apply to me.”

The question we want to ask ourselves is, “How does this apply to me? How can I make this principle of accounting apply in my job in HR?” And if you just take the time to drill down and think about it and pause for a second, you’ll find applications.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool, and I like that taking the time to actively think. And when you’re drawing a blank, I’ll tell you what, I have been playing around a lot with this, with AI and ChatGPT. I did it a year ago and thought that was kind of some cool tricks, but now with the upgraded powers, it’s pretty cool. Like, that’s the kind of a prompt that can really spark some ideas going. It’s like, “Hey, I am in this business and I just learned this concept, how is this at all applicable to me? And then give me 10 ideas.” And then it does, it’s like, “Oh, okay.”

And then that’s what I found to be most useful for. Its final product, headlines, and teasers, and copy is inadequate in my opinion, but as a little brainstormer thought partner, I’m finding all kinds of fun little uses there.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
And then that might be another subject associated with learning stuff that’s a principle, like learn business. We mentioned basic economics and basic principles of business. Are there any other resources that you found just absolutely killer?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one common thread that I’ve seen so far in the interviews that I’ve done, I’ve seen this also with people that I’ve coached through the years, is taking advantage of bonus opportunities. And what I mean by that is…well, I’ll give you an example. So, I interviewed Kwame Christian. You know Kwame, right? Have you had him on your show?

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed.

Dave Crenshaw
So, one of the things that he mentioned was that he took advantage of debate club as he was going to school. And he participated in that, and that participation opened up his eyes to the idea of negotiation and how to have difficult conversations. And I’ve seen that several times where someone is, they’re going to school, they’re participating in something, and there’s this ancillary opportunity that isn’t really going to show up on a resume for a job application, and they go participate in it, and that participation leads them to something new.

And it goes back to that idea of people think there’s one path to success. The path is you pick a career, you go to school and study that career, you get your grades then you go and work somewhere. But the reality is it’s the little opportunities that you might take for granted, the things that are going to help you figure out what you really want to do, and they’re going to help you grow in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I believe you highlighted that as a theme in my interview when you had me in terms of, “Oh, that stuff you were doing in college, in high school, in terms of giving that speech. You’re like, ‘Oh, speaking is awesome. And it’s interesting that other people are terrified of this, and yet I’m super jazzed about it. Hmm, there’s a lesson there.’”

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, and it also highlights the idea that go where your strengths are. And I was just reviewing the interview that I had with Kwame, he said, “Go where your curiosity is.” And it’s not so much about your passion. Your passion can be useful but I was passionate about playing music and being a rock star, not necessarily a very usable career for me.

But I was curious about entrepreneurship, I was curious about time management. I would go to the extra lectures where I went to school, and listen to entrepreneurs talk about their experience. Those things that I was curious about are the things that became most influential in my career. So, someone listening to this, you can ask yourself, “What am I most interested in that maybe isn’t a part of my career at the moment? Am I giving myself opportunities to immerse myself in those things?” and do a little bit of it even if it’s outside of the everyday work that you do.

And when you do that, you’re opening your mind, you’re opening your time, you’re opening your opportunities to probably what is going to lead to the most success in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. And something that’s come up in my podcast a number of times is folks to actually look back at what you were super interested in when you were younger can have some real clues for you. Like, before you were obligated, mandated, directed, desperate for cash, any number of pressures entered your world, what was just kind of interesting to you that you were curious about, that you dug into.

And you may very well not become a professional baseball player or a rock star or a magician, kind of whatever that might’ve been, but there’s something under the surface there in terms of, “Oh, with the magic tricks, it was delighting an audience,” or with rock roll, it’s kind of learning a thing and just getting immersed, or a sense of mastery, and sort of see just kind of “What’s the thing underneath the thing if you’re not going to be a pro sports guy or a rock and roll person?”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, what are the principles, what did I gain from this experience? And whether or not you’re in that career, what you learned in it will help you the most. That’s something I see with my wife who is a high school swim coach. And the reality is most of the kids that she coaches won’t be swimming past high school. Most aren’t even going to get a college scholarship. So, what are the moments within that extracurricular activity that give them an opportunity to grow and learn life skills about hard work, and persistence, and working with team members?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. I’d also love to hear you, Dave, tell me, did you see any conventional wisdom get skewered along the way in terms of maybe there are some tropes or standard-issue truth, wisdom, guidance, that is bellied about that your guests have actually revealed, “No, actually, it turns out that’s wrong, and here’s a better way”?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, that’s a really interesting question, Pete, and I’m going to tread delicately here with it.

Pete Mockaitis
Can’t wait.

Dave Crenshaw
But I think it’s important to be said that I think there is a concept out there that having a family holds you back, that your kids are going to slow you down and keep you from being successful if you choose to have kids. Or, even, “I need to wait later in my life to get married because marriage to my spouse is going to hold me back.”

And I have found that in both of those cases, the opposite is true. Let’s talk about children for just a second. Or, even if you choose to be a caretaker of someone else. What that does is it enforces limitations in your day. First, just setting aside all the wonderful benefits of being a parent, which there are, just from a structural standpoint in your career, it forces you to not work crazy hours.

And if you love your children, you’re going to want to say, “How can I spend time with them? And if I have to spend time with them, that means that I won’t be able to wake up at 6:00 o’clock in the morning and work all the way to 9:00 p.m. I’m going to have to find breaks.” And that relationship creates a boundary that forces you to figure out how to be more productive.

It’s really sloppy productivity to allow yourself to work long hours. You’re just masking a bunch of inefficiencies in your day when you allow yourself to work those hours. But if you say, “I’m not going to go past 5:00 p.m.” and I call this principle the finish line. You define what your finish line is in the day, “I’m not going to cross that.” Well, if you have to stop working by 5:00 p.m. because your kids are going to be coming home, you’re going to have to figure out, “How can I get everything done?”

And if you have to figure that out, now I got to say, “How can I do a better job at delegation? How can I do a better job of automation? How can I do a better job of focusing on what’s most valuable?” So, that’s one of the first themes that I’ve heard come up several times. And the other one is the value of a great partner.

And, however you structure that partnership with another human being, whether that’s through marriage or just through a long-term committed relationship, the idea is that person creates a ground and a balance to what you’re doing. And, of course, this is assuming you’ve made a great choice, or at least a good choice, but having that person in your life creates stability, creates confidence, and you can divide the labor between the two of you in a way that’s useful, and that will help you grow in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I’ve also heard stories that once folks become aware, “Oh, we’re pregnant. Baby is on the way,” suddenly, the motivation…

Dave Crenshaw
Oh, that’s my story.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, the motivation, the seriousness really gets kicked up a notch, it’s like, “Okay, no, for real, I’m going to make this thing work.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. When I give my speeches about The Myth of Multitasking, that’s one of the first things that I bring up. The two words that changed everything in my life, and changed my career, were, “I’m pregnant.” And when I heard those, I thought, “My gosh, I need to start getting more focused, and there’s this life coming in this world,” and that caused me to make that transition from maybe just pursuing my passion to pursuing a passion that was profitable. And that led me to returning to my work as a business coach and preparing how to be an author. That story still colors everything I do to this day.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we’ve covered some things that are great to do. What are some things you really recommend that we not do?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, I would say don’t be afraid to fail. A lot of people are so concerned that something isn’t going to work out, that they stop from making any kind of attempt. And I would say do not allow that to prevent you from taking risks. And, especially, don’t allow yourself to say, “In the future, at some point, I’m going to take this risk.”

The earlier you take that risk, the less costly it will be. So, if you’re listening to this right now and you’re just starting your career, and you’re not married, and you’re just coming out of college, whatever, now is the best time to take that sort of risk, so don’t hold back. And even if you say, “Well, I’m married and I’m a little bit further down my career,” now is a better time to take that risk than five years from now, or ten. Fail early.

And that will create more opportunities. And if you fail, great, but you can recover from it. And I wasn’t afraid to fail early in my career, and I did, and it took a while to recover from it, but that was also an opportunity to learn and to grow. And that is often just as, if not more educational than an official college degree.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really cool perspective there, to take the risk earlier gives you more opportunities to recover, or to pivot, or to take advantage of the things that you’ve learned, the relationships you’ve built, the discoveries that you’ve made, as opposed to if you wait ten years, or however long, you will just have less time to pivot, sort it out, make good things from the pieces and the ashes that have emerged from that failure. That’s really cool.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I know someone who just began their journey as an entrepreneur and owning their own business, and that’s great that they’re pursuing it, but the sad thing is they’re on the downward side of middle age, and for 30 or more years, he’s always wanted to own his own business. That’s a long time to hold on to that regret. Whereas, if he pursued it earlier, either he would have succeeded or he would not have that anymore, and say, “You know what, I took a try at that, I don’t have to think about it anymore.”

It’s funny, that’s part of the narrative that my wife and I have around my attempting to be a rock star. I had a band, I wrote songs, and sang keys, and I was doing that in my mid to late 20s. Now I can look back and say, “Wow, I’m glad I’m not doing that anymore. That was crazy.” And we’ll go somewhere and I’ll see a band setting up or something, and I’m, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad I’m not doing that.”

But if I had never done it, where would I be right now? “Oh, I could’ve done it.” I’m like Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite talking about how I could throw the football over those mountains. Give it a shot. Even if you do it part time in conjunction with the job that you’ve got, give it a try now and then you can confidently move on with your life, or something amazing will happen because of your hard work and because of the risks that you took.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool, to get a real sense of what is the reality associated with this dream. And I think folks have found it really does go both ways in terms of, “Hmm, professional music or being a lawyer or whatever, is just the coolest or is, wow, not for me. Good to know early and reorient from there.”

Dave Crenshaw
Indeed, yeah. That’s it, do it now. Give it a try now and you’ve still got time to learn from it and to do something else if it doesn’t work out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Dave, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one thing that I really thought about and, as you mentioned at the beginning, you’ve done 800 episodes, another principle and a pattern of success is consistency over years, and I’ve seen this in my work with entrepreneurs. They’ll get started, they’ll start a business, they’ll go for a year, maybe two, and then they start getting bored, and they start doing something else.

And sometimes, well, you’ve seen this, Pete, let’s just talk about podcasting for a second. You go online, and how many podcasts do you see listed that have one to three episodes, right? There are 8 million podcasts but how many of them really go beyond the first five or so episodes? Not most. Most are less than that. And it illustrates the idea that when we start something, we’ve got to stick at it for a while. We got to keep going at it for a while.

And I’ve seen this with my own career, for instance, my courses with LinkedIn Learning. I started out in 2011 when it was Lynda.com, and it was my first course. There’s so much value in being a part of that and having a partnership with someone, like in my case, LinkedIn Learning, and your case as well, for 12 years. When you’re in the pipeline that long, more people have an opportunity to learn about you.

And if you think about something that you’re passionate about, I’m talking to the listener now, if you think about something you’re passionate about and you want to pursue, make a commitment to do it for a good long while. And just the principle of longevity and consistently doing it will lead to paying off. I like to say that impatience is the enemy of success. And the reason why it’s the enemy of success is it causes us to pull up roots too early.

And I use pulling up roots because I’m thinking of, like, a farming metaphor. We plant the seeds, we put water on them, and then we go away for a little bit, and then maybe we come back a little bit later, and we look at it, and go, “Oh, well, it hasn’t grown anything.” A lot of people in that situation go, “Well, this was terrible. I’m not doing this anymore,” and they just rip everything up, when we’ve got to give it time, we’ve got to keep nurturing it, we’ve got to keep feeding it, and then, after a while, you’ll start to see the fruits of your labor.

So, I recognize that what you’ve accomplished, Pete, in your podcast, a lot of it is talent, a lot of it is the hard work, but a lot of it, too, is just the fact that you have just kept at it for 800 episodes.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s true. Things do pay off with consistency over time. Not always. Sometimes it’s like, “Hey, entrepreneur, that concept just isn’t hitting the mark for people.” And so, I think it’s a matter of saying…

Dave Crenshaw
But you’ve got to give it enough time to really figure that out.

Pete Mockaitis
Exactly. And so, I think about it from a hypothesis-driven thinking in terms of, “Okay, what do we need to learn? What are testing?” And I think, “Hmm, I’m kind of bored. I want to do something else,” is not a great reason as opposed to… I think about my failed businesses, it’s like, “Hmm, not a single person ever bought this thing. It seems they don’t actually want it after all.” So, then you could just say, “Well, maybe let’s pivot, adjust the offer.” Or if there’s no good adjustments to be made, it’s like, “Okay. Well, it’s time to say goodbye and move on and collect the learnings.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, and I’m aware of the paradox of what we just talked about because, just before this, we were talking about failing and failing early. And now I’m saying, “Keep at it for a good long while.” So, the question is, “How can you tell the difference between the two?” If you don’t mind, Pete, I’m going to turn that on you for a second. How do you personally tell the difference between when you’ve failed and when you just need to stay consistent?

Pete Mockaitis
I think it’s really a matter of looking at the evidence and, ideally, thinking about sort of tests, experiments, hypotheses, like, “What would need to be true for this thing to be successful?” and to see if there are some indicators. Like, I think in this business world, if it’s like, “Hey, you know what, we have successfully gotten 20 clients who are just love, love, love what we’re doing here, but we haven’t quite managed to get to a breakeven positive cashflow point.”

Well, I think that says you got something. I would not walk away from that lightly or if you’re bored. I would say, “Well, let’s figure out what are the remaining challenges we have to solve, and then solve them,” versus, “We’ve tried a dozen different marketing channels and not a single person has opted to part with their money for this thing we thought was so cool. Maybe this thing isn’t really resonating.”

And then you might choose to say, “Exit entirely,” or say, “Well, maybe it needs to be tweaked to make it more appealing, or maybe there’s a different segment that would really be into it. Maybe we were trying to go broad but, at the end of the day, this is really going to appeal to roofers, and we’d go all in on roofers,” or kind of whatever the segment is. So, I guess that’s how I would think about distinguishing it, is, “What evidence and signals have we collected to indicate this thing could be a winner versus not?”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I completely agree with what you said. And so, if I were to put my own spin on it, I would say break it into milestones. So, it’s so easy when we engage in an experiment to think only long term, “Five years from now, this is where I’m going to be and I’m going to cash out of my business and own a private island.”

But the real question is, “What is the experiment of this month? What’s the milestone that we’re trying to accomplish this month? Were we successful in accomplishing that? Was I able to get this many customers because I was able to get this many people to listen?” whatever it is. And then you move from that milestone to the next one that’s maybe a little bit bigger.

So, you want to create a pattern of success but also set the milestones of success at more realistic and reasonable things in the beginning, so then you just go from success to success, bigger and bigger, as you go along. Or, you have a string of months where you’re not hitting any of the milestones and you stop, and say, “Okay, maybe there’s something wrong with this experiment that I’m engaging in.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds good. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, my favorite one, and someone who really inspires me is Bob Ross. And I know Bob Ross has almost become a meme these days but the reality is, as an educator and his ability to reach people, he had a gift that not many people possess. So, as someone who teaches people, I look at the way he does it.

Obviously, my personality is not quite the same but his love, his passion inspires me. And so, one of my favorite quotes, and I got a big custom poster made, it’s framed on my wall, and the quote is, “Every time you devote time to practice, you haven’t lost. You’re always a winner.” And if I’m reinterpreting that phrase, I’m saying, “Everything that you do is practice. Everything that you attempt is useful. Even if you fail, if you can learn from it, then you didn’t fail at all. You’re still winning.”

And, boy, Pete, do I refer back to this mentally when I engage in those experiments that don’t work out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dave Crenshaw
I’ll answer this in an indirect way, probably not what you’re expecting. But as a coach and as an educator, I’m a big believer in the experiment of one. And what I mean by that is sometimes we’ll read a study, and it will say, “Seventy percent of people found that taking a break at work makes them more productive, it makes them more effective.” And that’s something that I teach. But what I want to, instead, say is don’t rely on the experiment of others because you might be in the 30%.

Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself. Give yourself time to try something that you’ve heard for the first time, and experiment it. I like two-week experiments. Really give it a try for two weeks, and then, at the end of that, assess, “What did your experiment of one give you? Did it work for you? Are there any adjustments that you’d make?” Then, that way, and you keep referring back to it, now you’re becoming the scientist of your own life rather than depending on other people to tell you what you should do based on some study.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Dave Crenshaw
Actually, I’m going to mention something that is really off the beaten path but something I’m passionate about, and it’s Hustle 2.0 has a series of books. And I would encourage anyone to look it up. Hustle 2.0 is a program that teaches people who are incarcerated, how to turn their lives around.

And so, the books, they’ve got three of them, teach people who have been through trauma, and teach people who have been through some really rough life experiences, how to overcome it, how to be stronger on the other side. And the curriculum is written by people who have been incarcerated. And the reason why this is top of mind is I just recently went to the Utah State Correctional Facility and met a lot of people who have used this book, and I’ve read it, and I’ve even talked about it with my kids.

And it’s so powerful to see how a book written by someone who has been in that situation can completely change their lives. So, yeah, it’s a hard one to get but you can find it at Hustle20.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Dave Crenshaw
Everyone likes to ask me, “This is a time management guy, what’s your favorite tool?” And my favorite tool is the one that everybody already has, they just don’t use it properly, and that’s your calendar. I just use that for everything. Even if I’m scheduling time to take time off, I’m scheduling everything in the calendar and I’d wager to guess that everyone listening to this could do a little bit better job of using their calendar to help them be productive.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dave Crenshaw
I’ll share one that I didn’t do for a long time. I’ve done a much better job recently of taking care of my physical health. And if we’re talking about the podcast, too, one of the things that I want to do is interview people who have balanced success. And I’ve learned through the wrong way that not being healthy ruins everything.

It doesn’t matter what you’ve accomplished in your career, in your life, if you’re feeling physically miserable. It’s not much of a success at all. So, I’ve done a much better job of the habit of exercising regularly. I try to do it at least five times a week with both cardio and some lifting. And, boy, it’s made everything a lot better for me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key quote you’re famous for, Dave?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one that pops to the top of my mind is “Whenever you say yes to one thing, you’re saying no to something else.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds like an opportunity cost.

Dave Crenshaw
There you go, exactly. There’s that economics influencing things. And it works in a microeconomic situation, a nano economic situation. When you’re making choices in your day to say yes to something, something has to give. It’s always a tradeoff. So, say yes to the most valuable things, and say no to things that are less valuable.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dave Crenshaw
The easiest place is DaveCrenshaw.com. Crenshaw is C-R-E-N-S-H-A-W. And you can find my podcast there, you can subscribe to it there, all sorts of stuff. And, of course, if you’re on LinkedIn, please look me up and follow me on LinkedIn as well.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, it didn’t come up during our conversation, or I had mentioned it just briefly, be grateful. That’s another principle of people who are successful. Every day, look for something that’s going well, and express gratitude for it. And what that will do is it will make you more open to the things that make you happy, and make everything you do for work more enriching and rewarding.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Dave, this has been a treat. I wish you much fun and success with your Success Project.

Dave Crenshaw
Thank you very much, Pete. Really generous of you to have me on. Thank you.