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Sep 04
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1090: How to Get Recruiters to Compete for You with Madeline Mann

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Madeline Mann shares insider tips and strategies for landing exciting new career opportunities.

You’ll Learn

  1. The resume mistake high achievers make
  2. The simple tweak that dramatically nets you more inbound opportunities
  3. The interview hack that makes you sound like an expert

About Madeline

Madeline Mann is an HR & Recruiting leader who spun her insider knowledge of the hiring process into an award-winning career coaching empire, called Self Made Millennial. Mann is now known for turning job seekers into Job Shoppers, to enable any professional to land high-paying job offers for seemingly unattainable roles. Her clients have landed at companies such as Netflix, Google, Goldman Sachs, Deloitte, NBC Universal, Amazon, and more. She lives in Los Angeles.

Resources Mentioned

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Madeline Mann Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Madeline, welcome!

Madeline Mann
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat. You’ve got so much good stuff on YouTube and elsewhere, talking career searching, job hunting, interview, answering. So, we’re going to talk a bit about some of the goods in your book, Reverse the Search: How to Turn Job Seeking into Job Shopping. Can you share with us, as you’ve spent all this time working in this field, what’s one of the most surprising and fascinating discoveries you’ve made or the advice you share that folks are genuinely shocked to hear and they thought it was the other way around?

Madeline Mann
Well, when I worked in human resources, I was the one who ran every hiring process. And something stood out to me is that it wasn’t the candidates who, necessarily, had the perfect background or the Ivy League education that made hiring managers trip over themselves to get them a position. There were certain candidates who were able to use certain approaches that allowed them to make the company compete for them.

So, they would say things like, “Oh, we need to hurry up the hiring process so we can get this person.” And, even, I worked at companies where we didn’t have these giant Google budgets, right? We had tight budgets, and we would go over budget to get certain candidates, even though they might not be, like I said, the perfect-on-paper candidate.

And so, that is the thing that really sparked the idea for this book, is that people don’t realize that on the other side of the table, these companies, when they find a candidate that they really like, they will compete for that person. And if you can find the ways to start enticing these companies, even if you’re a career-changer or an unconventional candidate, that they will go above and beyond for you.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, this is funny, and this is reminding me of the most random of things. I’m thinking about the book, Neil Strauss, The Game, talking about pickup artists, and they try to adopt this mindset, like, “No, no, no, no, I am the prize. I am a high value,” whatever. And they use a number of tactics, which aren’t so reputable, and I don’t imagine you want to neg your employer, your prospective employer, or maybe you do, Madeline.

Madeline Mann
You don’t want to neg.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, “Google is okay, I guess. It’s no Open AI.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. And I think that that’s actually kind of a really interesting misconception because they think, when I say, “Ooh, reverse the search. Go job shopping,” that suddenly you have this air of entitlement and all of that or negging, as you say, where you’re kind of taking company down a peg of, “I have other options. Like, what do you have to offer me?” It’s actually not that way at all.

It’s more about understanding exactly what the company needs and kind of taking your ego out of it, not talking about the details of your complicated career journey, but instead, focusing on, “Okay, what does the company need? How can I fill that need?” And knowing that you are the right person, you can make it happen, showing them you can make it happen, but also having this strategy where you are having opportunities come to you in a way that you don’t have to move into desperation mode.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, how does one, in fact, truly learn what they need? Because sometimes the job post, job description is kind of thin. It’s kind of generic. It might even be written by AI. I’ve had a buddy who does interviews, he’s like, “They said they wanted all these things in the job description, but then when I started using the terms, they seemed to not understand them in the interview. What’s going on here?”

Madeline Mann
Unreal. I totally get it. And, yes, so you’re right. The first place to look is the job description. That’s kind of where you start. And if you’re not able to unearth enough there, you can start also doing some research. If it’s a marketing role, sign up for the company’s email lists and look on their website. If it’s a customer success role, report a ticket or do something like that. If it’s a product role, interact with their product or see even how they talk about the product on the website.

If it’s human resources, read other job descriptions, read Glassdoor. Like, there’s just a million ways to actually explore a company and understand what is the state of that role in some ways. Now, really, where you understand what a company needs and is looking for is in the interview. Now, sometimes you can get around that by doing informational interviews ahead of time, talking to employees, but, really, the key is no one’s expecting you to come into an interview process being like, “Boom! Here’s exactly what you need.”

But what you can do for the first interview is do what I call a T-chart, which is essentially where you were to take the job description and you would match each of your past experiences to what is on that job description. And if there’s anything you’ve ever done, any skills you have that don’t meet things on that T-chart, I don’t want you to talk about it, unless you’re asked about it. But, too often, we volunteer additional information.

If I’m going into a car dealership, and I say the most important things are the color of the car and the size of the cup holders, do not tell me about the engine and the trunk space, right? So, that’s really the idea here. And then as you go into later interviews, you’re asking really good questions to where, if you were to land the job or had to start the job tomorrow, you would ask questions almost like a consultant, where you’ve understand the state of the projects you’d work on, what are their tools, and you could actually start to build a plan of how you would execute that.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that a lot. And that car example really resonates in terms of when sales folks don’t give you what you want to know, it’s frustrating and annoying. It’s like, “I want to know the price and I don’t want to know the history of your founder.”

It kind of ruins, it kills a lot of the excitement real quick. And so, likewise, I could see that we, as a job seeker, might be doing that. It’s like, “Well, no, no, no, I did a really cool project. I got a really big impact. And so, you got to know about it.” And it’s like, “Yeah, well, that’s cool, but that’s not actually what we’re into over here.”

Madeline Mann
Well, what most people do on their resume is that their resume is their best accomplishments. And I would like to challenge your audience to stop doing that. Stop putting your best accomplishments, unless what you did in your most recent role is very perfectly in line with the exact role you’re going for next, then that makes sense.

But if the role is slightly different, which a lot of high achievers tend to pivot roles that are a little bit different, they want to learn something new, so it’s fairly common to go to a different role that’s maybe, you know, just a parallel role, you should start thinking about, “Okay, let me prioritize my accomplishments of what is most relevant.”

And you may delete the biggest, juiciest project you worked on. Let’s say you had a role where you did tons of different things. You’re going for a project manager role, but one of the things you did is you closed a $3 million deal with Pepsi. Okay, that’s a business development accomplishment. That is not a project management accomplishment. That fabulous deal is not going to make it onto your resume.

And people, sometimes they’re mourning their past job experience because they say, “Ooh, but it was so good. I was their champion at everything.” If there were project management elements of that project, sure, share those. But that accomplishment itself is distracting.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. mourning is the word in terms of, “I worked so hard on this. I poured so much of my blood, sweat, and tears, effort into it. And now it doesn’t even serve me here?” And I guess the truth is it does not. And sharing it will make it serve you even less. It can be counterproductive. And, especially, as I think about resume space as the line as the fundamental unit of currency there. And maybe you can give a quick hot take on how long can our resumes be?

Madeline Mann
Yes, there are so many opinions about how long a resume should be, and I will put it to rest. It doesn’t necessarily matter how long your resume is, but it should only have extremely relevant information. And when you go through the glory formula, which is in the book, Reverse the Search, I’ve seen so many people where their resume shrinks, and it does shrink to one page.

And that is the interesting challenge of, if you kind of challenge yourself to do it to one page, and definitely do it to two pages, you’ll realize, “Wow, I put a lot of things on that resume that didn’t need to be there.” I put that I was CPR certified to do an accounting role. I don’t need to put that there. So, there’s just so many things that we need to take another look at, because more information is not more helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, to this, we’ll zoom out in a moment, but you just keep saying enticing things, I can’t let go. So, CPR certified, understood, that’s not really relevant. Often, a resume will have a section sort of like interests or hobbies or whatever. And some would say, “Oh, that’s kind of nice.” They can get a little bit of a picture of your personality on, like, one line. What do you think about that?

Madeline Mann
I like it. I think it’s good because people hire people, okay? So, that line is really a moment for you to connect with the interviewer and it’s not guaranteed. Now here’s a guaranteed way to waste that space. If you say generic things like, “I like travel,” “I like to try new restaurants,” “I like to spend time with my family,” things that are, literally, just so foundational that there’s nothing to hold onto there.

What if, instead, you say, “I’m obsessed with Thai food,” “My favorite place to travel is Fiji,” “I have four sons.” Right? Like, saying something about where it’s specific, where, if I also have a bunch of sons, I might reach out to it, or, “I love Fiji too,” or, “Thai food is great,” like, blah, blah, blah.

Now, there’s no guarantee that the person on the other end is going to connect with any of those things, but it’s guaranteed they’re not going to connect with them if they’re hyper-generic.

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, that’s the craziest thing. I also enjoy sunshine, Madeline. That’s crazy.” Okay. Well, we’re having fun here. Maybe let’s zoom out and, perhaps, could you share with us a story of someone who really internalized this mindset shift? They did some different things and saw a cool result because of that.

Madeline Mann
Absolutely. I think about one of my clients, Brittany. So, she was having trouble in the job search. She was very well qualified for the roles and she had a human resources background, which you’d think, “Oh, she hires people. She knows the behind-the-scenes.” But it’s wild how job searching is a completely separate skillset from actually being good at your job.

And so, she was kind of struggling to get interviews, and it all changed where, first of all, I think a lot of us really underestimate the value of LinkedIn. She started getting outreaches on LinkedIn when she optimized it, right? Doing the right things on the profile. And I do go into depth in that in Reverse the Search.

Another thing is she went through an interview process, got to the very end and was rejected. And I think this is really important for people to hear right now because a lot of my clients get rejected. But I’ve been called the Comeback Coach because a lot of them still land offers at companies that reject them. And I think that this is a really important learning for people, is that a rejection is not the end of the road.

If you’ve had an interview with a company, you have networked with them. You now have a relationship, and they have actively shown you with their time, with their effort, that they value you. So, you have to put that in your pocket, and say, “That’s a win for me.” So, this is what Brittany did. I worked with her to say, “Okay, you had a great relationship with this hiring manager. Let’s keep cultivating it.”

So, I helped her to, like, continue the relationship. We also got what I call kind of like decoy offers, like, I try to get clients even offers that they don’t want, and then bring those offers to the employers that you’re really excited about. Tell them about it. And that’s what she did. She was like, “Hey, I have this offer. I’m getting farther in this interview process. Do you guys have any open roles coming up? Like, I want to work with you the most, but I have this opportunity.”

And that hiring manager was like, “We are going to have an open role in a couple months, but you know what? I’m going to push that forward and make that happen now.” Because, suddenly, everyone wants the candidate who, first of all, is building great relationships and, second of all, is highly desired in the market.

And so, she was able to then kind of speed through that, like, second round of interviews with this company, get the offer. She earned 40% more than her last salary. She told me, “I don’t even want to negotiate because this offer is so good.”

And that’s another thing, is that if you’re job shopping, if you’re using these methods through the interview process, negotiation becomes not that important because companies will nearly almost always give you the top of their range because they’re like, “Just take it. Like, please join us.” And so that’s what happened for her.

And so, I really want to emphasize that to anyone kind of going through this tough job market is, again, like, I think this is a good example of you have a lot more influence in the process than you think. People view a rejection as them being powerless, but she spun that into a massive power and landed the offer.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. I like that a lot. And I have witnessed that, in my world as well, in terms of, “Oh,” I worked at Bain for a while, and they say, “They got an offer from McKinsey. So, if we want him, we better move quick.” And they do. It’s like, “We got interviews on Fridays. Well, you’re having an interview this Friday, not a month from now,” which was previously thought it would be.

And it’s true. I think, especially in, I’m thinking about Bob Cialdini, who’s on the show, talking about influence, the notion of scarcity, as well as social proof, like just human psychology here. Like, it’s sort of ambiguous, “Is this person going to be great at this role? I mean, I hope so. They seem like it. Oh, but someone else really wants them. Okay, well, there’s some validation. I guess there’s another indicator that the odds are good, they’re a winner.”

As well as scarcity, it’s like, “Oh, oh, we better move quick or we’ll lose them.” And so, what a great place to be if you are in that position and everyone else that they’re talking to is not.

Madeline Mann
Yes, exactly. Exactly right. There are psychological principles that come up there that are as old as time. And, exactly, that scarcity, that competition, and a lot of people don’t realize that budgets are malleable, timelines are malleable, like, companies will say certain things or certain ways, but companies also understand that hiring is an art just as much of a science.

And people think that companies are just inundated with exceptional talent, and that’s actually not the case. When you find someone who’s a great talent, has a great attitude, personality, skillset, you want to keep an eye on them. You do want to hire them, and you don’t take that necessarily for granted.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s maybe walk through it step by step in terms of, let’s say, “All right, I got a job and it’s okay, but it’s still not quite doing it for me in terms of I’d maybe like a little bit more money, a little bit more flexibility, a little bit more cool teammates, a little bit more impact.”

You know, it’s sort of like, our jobs are fine but we have a feeling that there’s something that is substantially better out there for us. So, we say, “You know what, let’s just go for it. Let’s just start looking around.” What would you say is the step one, two, three to embarking upon job shopping as opposed to job seeking?

Madeline Mann
So, there are short-term, medium-term, and long-term options. So many job seekers hunt, right? So hunting is basically where you kind of go out, there’s a role, you try to hunt it, and it runs away. Just like hunting, right? Like, if your prey runs away, then you kind of have lost out on it, and it’s that. That’s why you need to also have farming aspects of your strategy as well.

So, if you were just now going to embark on the job search, first of all, I would start farming, first of all. Like, let’s start tilling the field. So, first of all, the most important thing is get extremely clear about what is your next career step. Too many people skip over this. They’re like, “Well, I have a lot of different skills.” I call them kind of like the mosaic job seeker, where they’re like, “I just have so many different beautiful parts of me,” which you do, but you need to get clear.

Then your messaging needs to be extremely clear on your LinkedIn profile. And then there’s likely some profession and/or industry-specific job boards or networking sites where I would get your branding, your resume, whatever it is, on those, too, because I want those to just be magnets for opportunity. A lot of my clients report over 50% of their interviews coming in just inbound. They’re not applying, just companies coming to them.

So, that’s why we say, like, “Just get yourself out there on the internet, and let those things come into you,” because, especially, if you’re employed, you don’t have a ton of time to reach out to people. So, get that branding good to go, okay? Then I want you to start warming up that network.

First of all, talking to people in your network, and then, of course, reaching out to people at certain companies. So, having a target company list where you’re starting to network there.

Now let’s focus on the hunting, right? So, let’s now look at what jobs are out there. What is actively hiring now? So that’s the reactive job search process, where you’re reacting to what’s out there on the market. And with that, we need to be quick and precise. We’re seeing a lot in the job market right now, that you do want to act quickly when a role opens because these roles are highly inundated.

But also, especially as you move up in your career, as you’re getting more advanced, focus more on relationships of, like, making sure that that resume actually gets read, versus simply just submitting it online. So that is where I would start to kind of have this multifaceted, both short-term and long-term play for your job search, to maximize your time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so then, when it comes to some of the particulars, like, get the branding good, what perhaps are the top two or three action steps that are just tremendously useful per minute we spend on them?

Madeline Mann
Right. So, we’ll focus on your LinkedIn profile, because while I did talk about there’s other places you can do this, let’s talk about LinkedIn because that really is the number one place that recruiters are looking for talent.

Too many people think that their “About” section is important and their cover photo is important. None of those things are unimportant, but people spend so much time on those that I would say throw those out the window. Like, let’s focus on them much later. Instead, let’s focus on what is actually moving the needle of showing up in searches.

First of all, you’re probably not surprised, your headline, okay? Your headline, I think there’s two different ways to approach your headline and, too often, if you’re using AI to create it, they’re usually telling you, like, “Make a clever statement about who you serve, and stand out that way.” Here’s the problem there. I think that a clever statement is good if you’re doing a content strategy and building a business.

So maybe you might say, you know…

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m a snack marketing ninja with an emoji.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Bring snacks. Yeah, snacks to everyone you know. Yeah, exactly. So, not like that. It’s better to be like digital marketing specialist in the food and beverage industry, right? Like, something like that where it’s like, “Boom! Okay, got it.” Like, that is what I’m buying as an employer, because what recruiters do is they search for keywords.

I’ve done a ton of sourcing in my career, in my recruiting. I’m highly familiar with LinkedIn’s backend of what that looks like. So, you need to make sure that you’re findable. The people who are getting all of these interviews, such as my clients, they’re not necessarily more talented than you. They’re just more easily found.

And so, we are not thinking about the SEO of your profile. So, making sure you’re getting the right keywords on there and the right elements. And people also are afraid to put it in industry because they’re afraid to pigeonhole themselves, but industry profiles, industry-specific profiles, get far more clicks and interest.

Someone who’s just in marketing versus someone who is in marketing for food and beverages, that’s completely different, more specific skillset that is going to attract more attention. So don’t be afraid to be specific.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then the headline is huge because the way the LinkedIn search algorithm is operating. So, if someone is searching for a digital marketing person in food and beverage, if you have that kind of thing in your headline, then you’ll be super findable relative to not. And I guess there’s some tricky nuances in terms of, “Well, this is what I’m doing now, but I want to do something different later.” I guess that makes it tougher as to, “What do I do with that headline there?”

Madeline Mann
Yep, you can’t focus your headline on what you did in the past. It has to be what you want to do next. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Or, what you want to be doing. Because, like, you’re not like, “If I’m a digital marketing specialist in food and beverage, but I want to be a digital marketing specialist for video games, I cannot say that I am that right now, though I want to be that.”

Madeline Mann
Well, here’s the thing. We always have to put ourselves in the mind of the employer, okay, “How can I be employable in video games? Well, I should start, you know, maybe doing some pro bono work for an indie video game shop, right, or something like that. Or even create my own projects.” And you need to build that experience even if it’s just a few hours a month.

And then you need to claim it on your headline because it is actually unkind to put in your headline, “I worked in food and beverage,” and then someone contacts you in food and beverage, and be like, “No, I’m not pursuing roles in food and beverage.” It’s just like an unnecessary piece of information that you’re now attracting the wrong person.

It’s more kind to say, you know, “Video games,” and then you’re attracting that opportunity and you can show them how you’ve been upskilling in that industry, how you have been an immense student of that industry. And so, now you’re attracting the right opportunities. That is more kind because now it’s easier for companies to match up to you properly versus you sending these mixed signals into the world.

Pete Mockaitis
And maybe I’m just getting a little bit hung up. So, then in this scenario we’ve dreamt up together, with the headline, “I’m a digital marketing person in food and beverage. I want to be a digital marketing person in video games,” what do I do with that headline?

Madeline Mann
I would put video games. I wouldn’t put food and beverage.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, then I guess I’m a little worried then in this world, it’s like, if my boss sees this, like, “Hey, man, what?”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, oh, that’s true. So, if you’re currently employed, you’re right, I think that would raise some serious eyebrows. So, I would, in that case, remove industry. Remove industry from your headline. But you really should be showing some video game expertise on your profile. It could be that you write an article on LinkedIn. It doesn’t matter if there is one person reading it. Your brother-in-law is the only one who reads it or something like that. It doesn’t matter.

It really is just about, “When I get to your profile, I can tell that he is extremely intentional about moving into this industry,” because it scares employers so much if they feel you have not done the work to make this pivot because they do not want to be a career experiment where you think, “Oh, yeah, maybe I’ll do this industry, maybe I’ll do that industry, maybe I’ll do this job title, that job title.”

They hire you, and you realize, “Ooh, actually, this wasn’t exactly what I wanted,” or, “I’m actually vastly underqualified and I didn’t actually, like, do the work myself to get up to speed of another candidate.” And then they feel really disappointed in the hire.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. So, for get branding good, we’ve got LinkedIn showing off in the headline as much as we can, what we’re after, as well as in the other places, “Hey, I posted an article,” maybe, “I I’ve done some pro bono work for a studio and that’s listed there,” and that’s cool. Tell us more about getting branding good. I was specifically interested in that notion of, “Hey, you can just go ahead and do some free work for a company there and mention it.”

And I think that that is fabulous. We had a woman on the show, Kristen Berndt, and she had a dream of working in airline baggage operations, which I thought was funny as a very specific dream and a passion of hers. Like, she read all these articles on it, and it was amazing to me.

And so, she started a blog about these matters, like, “Hey, here’s the latest rankings on baggage performance,” and her analysis of what she thinks is going on, and why United went up or down in the rankings and some new technologies they’re using. And, sure enough, like, she got the job in that career-switch area because nobody else has a blog about airplane baggage operations, “You got the job, Kristen. Congrats.”

Madeline Mann
That is a perfect example, and, yeah, exactly. It doesn’t matter how many people read that blog or anything. She was showing that she has a growth mindset, and a lot of people don’t realize that is the biggest currency of this current job market. It’s not years of experience. It’s not wisdom. It’s not tenure. It’s ability to evolve and constantly learn, because 25 years of marketing experience doesn’t actually mean anything if you’ve lived the same year of your career 25 times.

You need to be up-leveling. You need to be learning new things. And so, just like she is, she’s showing her that she is very on top of things. She is passionate. And so, exactly, I mean, I have a client, she is at Harvard PhD and was so disappointed to enter the workforce and realize that she wasn’t really desirable. She wanted to work in market research for public companies.

And so, I worked with her to tap, I have a bunch of business owners in my network, me being a business owner myself, and I had her make a list of the type of market research she was willing to do pro bono. So, she was like, “I can do an analysis of your customers in this way and that way.” So, she made a list and I sent it out to a group of business owners.

And I said, “Does anyone want to take her up on this?” So, I had a couple of business owners say, “Yes.” And now she has incredible projects on her resume. She’s showing these employers that she was able to take what she did as a researcher at Harvard. And now she actually has real-world results.

And it’s not about her breaking her back to do 60 hours a week of work. She’s probably doing four hours a week of work, pro bono. But people are spending tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars, on education, and they’re spending so many hours a week doing these things, where you could spend so much less time and money just doing a little bit of pro bono work, getting the evidence on your resume and then having the ability to talk about that.

And a lot of people aren’t doing it because it’s not the paved path.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot. And I’m also thinking about just showing up at events, because you learn so much so quick when you’re talking to all the people doing all the things in terms of…I’m just thinking about Podcast Movement I’ve been to over and over again. And so, if you are interested in maybe getting into the podcast world, but didn’t have a lot of experience, well, by golly, you’re going to know all sorts of things that the uninitiated were utterly clueless about, like, three days ago.

You’d get an education on what is absolutely cutting edge, modern, top-of-mind concerns for people in this space, and as well as connections right there, like, “Hey, now I know some people and who know other people. Away we go.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, exactly. And making those connections, learning, yeah, attending those things, consuming information, and regurgitating it back. And just claim it as your own, right? If you learn something about the podcast industry, then just, like, integrate that into the questions you ask people of the podcasters, or anything like that, or, “I’ve noticed this or that.” Just really internalize these things.

And I even have a lot of my clients, as part of their interview prep, I have a very short document that people use, where people are like, “Whoa, this interview prep you tell us to do is so much more brief than the interview prep I normally do, but yet it’s highly more effective.” And one of the things I have them do that almost no one does as a preparation for their interviews is I ask them to find a podcast specifically on their profession.

And you’d be amazed. I have so many clients of, like, super niche job titles and there is like a YouTube video out there, there’s a podcast episode out here. And you know, like in podcasting, you can get incredible people saying, basically, the most rich and factual things, but it’ll have like four views, right? And so, it’s amazing what you can find out there.

So, then they’re able to take that information that either helps them to grow their mind about their profession or further confirms the things that they already felt about their profession, helps them to crystallize in interviews, and show them as more of an expert, more of a thought leader.

And, literally, just that one action has helped land a lot of my clients, job offers, because they’re like, “Whoa, I’m communicating so much better in my interviews because I sound like I really have deeply thought about the big picture of this industry and my profession because I’ve listened to some thought leaders and done that preparation.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And I might say, while you’re at it, feel free to reach out to the podcast guests. Many of my guests have said, “I’ve heard from so many of your listeners on LinkedIn,” and they’re so wonderful. It’s like, “Well, thank you.” Thank you, listeners, for being so wonderful, and so, yeah. And, especially, if you have a real thoughtful comment, compliment, follow-up question, folks generally like that, as opposed to a fake compliment, segueing into sales pitch. We have enough of those.

Madeline Mann
Yes. And that’s the thing, is people go on podcasts, on YouTube channels, because they want to have that effort that they put into that interview be heard by the world, right? They don’t go on to hope that no one hears it. So, the fact that you are reaching out, you’re giving a compliment, that you’re asking a question, that is absolutely welcome. So that’s one of the best possible things.

Like, if you’re trying to get your foot in the door at a company, try to find these micro influencers at the company, just people who post on LinkedIn every now and then, or people who are on podcasts every now and then. They don’t have to be your hiring manager. They don’t have to be a recruiter. They don’t have to be someone in your department.

Literally, those people, if you can just listen to what they did, read their article, they’re going to be so grateful that you engaged with it, that you found it interesting, that that is such an effortless way to network. It’s crazy. And so, that is such a good way in.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s true, yes. If folks really pour some thought and effort into an article, an interview, a post, and they have, like, crickets of response, like a couple people give it a like or, “Good article, Madeline,” and that’s about it, and then there is some authentic engagement from a human being, who found that interesting and insightful, valuable, and has a follow-up question, well, it immediately provokes the answer, “Wait, who’s this person?” Like, you’re immediately interested in that person because, like, “No one else showed any interest in me. This person did. I like them and I want to know all about them.”

Madeline Mann
Yes, people think, “I have nothing to offer this person. What can I give them?” Literally, like, your interest, and even people hitting like on a post, giving comment, showing that interest, even if you have a tiny network or a tiny social media following, like I bet you, if someone was consistently sharing your podcast episodes, like you probably wouldn’t even care how big their following is. You probably just notice them over time and say, “That person is awesome. Like, I appreciate them.” And it really is quite flattering.

So, yeah, I think it’s such an important thing that, even just taking time to notice people, I say that in Reverse the Search, it’s not about knowing people. It’s about noticing people. You don’t have to have this big network, but if you’re really great at noticing people, noticing what they’re contributing to the world, what makes them great, what makes them interesting, you are going to never want for a job.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Well, boy, we could talk for hours. But, Madeline, could you share with us a couple of your top do’s and don’ts that we haven’t hit yet here?

Madeline Mann
First of all is, folks think that aiming lower in their job search is easier. So, like, let’s say you’re sending out resumes and none of them are hitting, you think, “Well, why don’t I just go to roles that I’m super qualified for, I’m 130% qualified for?”

What I found is that that’s actually harder to land than maybe a role that is obviously perfectly aligned with you or even a role that’s a little bit of a reach for you. Because companies are terrified that they’re going to have to pay you too much, that you are going to get the role and you’re going to get bored really quickly, you’re going to ask for a promotion, you’re going to leave until a better job comes.

And, truthfully, I’ve seen that happen a lot at companies where people say, “Oh, no, this leveling is totally fine for me.” And they prove the company right, that it was not a right fit. So, first of all, don’t aim. If you’re going to aim anywhere, aim a little bit higher instead of lower, even if you’re a career-changer. You don’t have to go to the bottom of the rung of a career ladder if you’re career changing.

Second of all, there’s this idea that keeps permeating, that is the idea that the job search is a numbers game. And, especially now that application numbers are getting higher and higher because more and more job seekers are using AI, your friends and your family will often give you terrible advice of just apply more, more, more.

And I just have, I mean, I have a bunch of examples in the book and I have hundreds more from my clients where they just shifted the way they approach things, started going after a half a dozen, maybe a dozen roles, maybe a couple dozen roles, and landing interviews at most of them. And so, when you shift your approach, you actually find that, in a world right now where everything is so impersonal, doing more impersonal things at scale is actually the slowest way to job search.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Yes, that makes a lot of sense because you might have more numbers, but the percentage is so super-duper tiny that it’s not really worthwhile, even though, “Oh, this was easy to apply to that job.” “Yeah, that’s what the other 3,000 people said.”

Madeline Mann
Yeah, and I would say, you know, it’s so tough to sit here and give advice because all of your listeners are unique and have different situations. I would say, if you don’t have any interviews at 10% of the applications you’re sending out, there’s something wrong, okay?

So, for some of us, we are perfectly qualified for these roles, we have great companies on our resume, we’re applying within the first 24 hours, and we are landing 10%, 20%, 30%, 40% of the job opportunities. If that is your strategy and it is working, please continue. But if you’re kind of doing all those things and it’s below 10%, something’s up. And, like, probably the high-volume job search, the way you’re going about it right now is not a good approach.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I love a benchmark number. Thank you, Madeline. That’s handy. Tell us, any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Madeline Mann
One of the most important things right now is the job market is challenging. It’s really the worst job market I’ve seen in my career, and I want to say that because I want to tell your listeners that it’s not in their head.

But yet, I also sit in a position where I am seeing job seekers land not only one offer, but multiple offers all the time. So, I see this firsthand. So, I just want you to know that it is possible and, really, they’re just going one step above. Like, they’re just doing maybe one more step than you are, but they’re doing it strategically.

I was talking to someone on TikTok today, where they said, “Well, what if I get rejected from a no-reply email? I guess I’m out of luck.” Job shoppers don’t stop at a no-reply emails, right? Like, I just need you to start shifting your thinking of instead of seeing obstacles, see opportunities.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I just can’t let that go. So, let’s say, we applied and I got a no-reply at Craft.com, and they say, “Peter, thank you so much for your interest. Unfortunately, we have chosen to move with a different candidate,” dah, dah, dah. That’s that. What do I do there?

Madeline Mann
Yeah, so if this is truly just an application, right, you have not had any sort of correspondence with the company, you could find their general email, like, the “Hello” at their website. You could find the recruiter email, you could find the hiring manager, and people are like, “But how do I know who’s the hiring manager? How do I know what their email is?”

Those things, first of all, you’re guessing. Second of all, it’s fairly easy to guess also people’s email addresses. There’s lots of tools online that can find them or, also, it’s usually their first name at the company website, or their first initial, last name. There’s a lot of ways that it’s pretty easy to figure out.

So, spend, you know, two to five minutes finding an email address, following up, saying, “Thank you so much for getting back to me. I am bummed I missed the window for this role because I was very excited. Should anything open up or should this role open up again, I want to let you know that I’m extremely interested in it, going forward, and I wish you all the best. I’ll be rooting for you from the sidelines,” something like that.

And I remember, I got an email like that once when I was hiring a role, and I would either get silence from rejection emails or hatred when I was working in recruiting because people are very sensitive when it comes to rejection.

Pete Mockaitis
They actually say that out loud. Okay. Huh?

Madeline Mann
Yes. And so, for someone to say, “Hey, you rejected me. Just a heads up. Like, you all are a top company that I’m interested in. So, I’m going to keep up with you.” That stands out. So, what did I do with her application? I put it in the future potential bucket of my ATS. When that role opened up again, she was one of the first people I reached out to. She interviewed. She even got to one of the final rounds.

So, just know that, again, where others see obstacles, you need to see opportunities. And all these people are, like, imagine me opening up the role again, not putting it online, simply interviewing some of the candidates I had already interest in, and then she gets the role, that’s the hidden job market right there.

Because I wouldn’t have opened the role again if she fit it, and I could just interview her and not have to go through all the folder all of like, you know, evaluating all these applications. People don’t realize that these are some of the ways that you’re cutting the line in the job search.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Madeline Mann
“A healthy man has a thousand wishes. A sick man has only one.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And now a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Madeline Mann
I am a big fan of Cialdini. His book, Influence, was one that just completely transformed my life. I read it in high school, and it’s really transformed. He actually did a study, where he found that one of the best questions to ask in a job interview is, “Why did you bring me in here today? What made you feel that I was qualified to be here today?”

And he proved that that question was influential in getting the company to start rationalizing why that person is a good fit.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is a great question. And it gives you valuable information, it’s like, “Oh, okay. I thought it was this other thing. I’m not going to talk about that. I’m going to talk about what you said.

Madeline Mann
“Yes, I’m going to focus on that. Yes.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Madeline Mann
I love Multipliers.

Pete Mockaitis
And a shout out to Liz Wiseman, a former guest on the show. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Madeline Mann
I use a lot of Evernote. My entire business is really based on me putting out value into the world, and value can come in inspiration of client conversations, of podcast interviews.

And so, to have somewhere easily accessible that I’m writing down all of my ideas, keeping them organized, cultivating them over time. So, just, you know, it’s a very simple tool, but that one’s been really helpful for me to just track all of these thoughts that are bubbling in my head.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Madeline Mann
I always use a notebook. I am constantly writing in my notebook and it’s filled with to-do lists. And I probably go through a notebook in, like, a couple weeks. And something about having my to-do lists written down, and even just, like, often in conversations, I’ll write down notes.

Writing down notes is part of one of the secrets to, I feel, like, my success, with my being organized. But to have things just, like, written here, keeping my priorities very clear for the day. Checking them off is so gratifying. That is my favorite habit.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Madeline Mann
“Your resume is a sales page, not a Wikipedia page.”

Pete Mockaitis
I like it. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Madeline Mann
I would say, find me at MadelineMann.com. You can find me there. You can also find me all across different social media channels, YouTube, “Self-Made Millennial,” LinkedIn, all of that. But, yes, MadelineMann.com as a core hub.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Madeline Mann
“What’s the best that could happen?” Okay. I want you to think of that every time you go out of your comfort zone, where it’s comfortable, it’s crowded. So, get uncomfortable in the job search. And every time you do something that feels a little funky, reach out to someone new, just think, “What’s the best that can happen?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Madeline, fabulous. Thank you.

Madeline Mann
Thank you.

May 27
0

965: Why Your Boss Isn’t Advocating for You…and What to Do About it with Dr. Nicholas Pearce

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

Dr. Nicholas Pearce reveals the hidden reason why many high-performers don’t advance—and provides candid solutions.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The harsh truth behind why many don’t advance
  2. Why even a great mentor is no substitute for a sponsor
  3. How to find support if you aren’t being supported

About Nicholas

Dr. Nicholas Pearce is a Chicago native and vocational multihyphenate who has committed his life to creating social impact at the intersection of the academy, the church, and the marketplace. He is an award-winning organizational behavior professor at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management, Founder & CEO of The Vocati Group, a boutique management consultancy, and a respected faith leader. He is also the author of the bestselling book, THE PURPOSE PATH: A Guide to Pursuing Your Authentic Life’s Work.

Resources Mentioned

Thank You, Sponsors!

Dr. Nicholas Pearce Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Nicholas, welcome.

Nicholas Pearce
Thanks, Pete. Good to be with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to be chatting with you. You have so much wisdom in so many domains, but my producers originally found you from your phenomenal Harvard Business Review article called What to Do When Your Boss Won’t Advocate for You. And it sounds like you struck a nerve with this one, Nicholas. What’s the scoop here?

Nicholas Pearce
I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with. People long to have great mentors and great managers who are invested in their success and care about them as humans. But if there’s something that we learned during the pandemic is that a lot of leaders don’t care about the humanity in us. They view us as not human beings, but as human doings.

And for those who have managers who don’t really care about them, don’t care about their forward progress, or won’t bring their name up in rooms that they’re not able to occupy, it creates a challenge to figure out how to navigate your career and your life forward when you recognize you’re lacking that sponsorship.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, Nicholas, coming strong right out of the gate. I love it. So, they don’t care about our humanity. That’s a strong sentence and yet it seems accurate. It’s not that they wish us harm actively, but it’s just kind of like, you know, at the end of the day, you are a means to producing a thing, and that’s a fairly prevalent attitude. If you had to hazard a guess, what percent of managers do you think fall in the humanity-affirming versus humanity-eh column?

Nicholas Pearce
That’s a hard number to guess at, but I can tell you that most corporations, based on how they are structured, tend to look at people as products, even the language of human resources or human capital. Human capital was, I guess, designed to be something of a more humane way of saying HR, but when you think about human capital, putting human capital alongside physical capital or financial capital, these are resources that are under the control of the organization for the organization’s purposes, not things that have lives of their own to be valued.

So, putting people in the thing column, I think it’s very, very common. And, unfortunately, most folks who have been in the working world for any amount of time know that while HR may sound like they exist for the people, most HR departments exist to shield an organization from lawsuit. So, HR typically is not really there for you. HR is there for the company.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Telling it like it is. So, just for funsies, is there a language that you prefer to use when it comes to organizations and people, like, the people department or learning and development? Like, what are the terms you like to use?

Nicholas Pearce
I love the concept of people and culture. Having an executive leader who is primarily responsible for the development and wellbeing of the people in the organization and the stewardship of a healthy culture, I think that language works well. I think learning and development, as you mentioned, Pete is great because it focuses on the value added to the people and their development. Anything that does not make it sound like the organization owns or controls assets. That type of language, I think, has its own limitations.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Nicholas, I just love where you’re rolling. And I know, in your background, you are both a business school professor and a pastor. And it’s really beautiful to kind of see how the thinking interplays here in terms of just even the words we use, we can find irksome or even dangerous.

Nicholas Pearce
That’s exactly right. I think words have power and words should be used with intention. And I think the words that our organizations and corporations have used over the years are reflective of the desired intention. And as we begin to deconstruct some of those harmful ways of thinking and being in workplace life, we have the opportunity to refresh not only our perspectives, but our language as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, lovely. All right. And we’re just getting started talking about advocacy. So, we’re going to say this word a lot. Maybe since we’re talking words, could you give us some definition? When we talk about having a boss or someone advocate for you at work or advocacy, generally speaking, within work, what do we mean by that? You said speaking up for someone when they’re not in the room, that’s something, got a ring to it. Are there any other dimensions of that you’d highlight?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. So, I think about advocacy as the act of sponsorship, and I juxtapose sponsorship against mentorship. So let me describe the two and contrast them. Mentorship is having that person who will coach you, who will pull you aside and say, “Hey, I like what you did there. Maybe a little bit more of this next time, a little bit less of that.”

Maybe they’re going out to coffee with you once every couple of weeks or every four weeks or every quarter. They’re there to help you navigate. They’re there to invest in your development. They care about you as a human. They care about your performance. They’re trying to invest in making you a better you.

Sponsorship is altogether separate. Sponsorship is not so much about making the direct investment of time in giving feedback, and having lunch regularly, and having coffee, and giving micro corrective feedback. Sponsors are people who are opportunity creators. They are career accelerators and catalysts of opportunity. These are individuals who are bringing your name up when you’re not in the room. And as is often said, 80% of what is said about you is said when you’re not in the room.

So, for many people, especially women, people of color, and others who tend to be excluded from a lot of opportunities in many work environments, they tend to be over-mentored, “We’ll give you a coach, we’ll give you feedback, we’re going to make you a better you,” under the guise that the reason you have not ascended is because you need to be made better.

But what they really need are sponsors, people who are willing to say, “Hey, did we consider giving Nicholas that opportunity? Did we consider giving Jane that promotion? What are the reasons why we’re holding her back? Are we saying she lacks ‘seasoning’? What exactly do we mean by that? Does she need to add paprika and stir? Like, what are we saying?”

The people who are willing to do the blocking and tackling to make sure that organizational politics or bias don’t derail your career, those are your sponsors. And so, many people are over-mentored, but under-sponsored. And so, the whole concept of advocacy speaks to an individual using their credibility, their capital on you to advance you and your career.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so then can you tell us, it’s like, “Okay, boys, it’s really important that we have people speaking up for us when we’re not in the room,” how would we even know the extent to which this is or is not happening since we’re not in those rooms?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. You can tell, one, what your boss is saying to you offline. Do you and your manager have a relationship where feedback flows naturally and continuously? Or are you in a situation where your feedback comes mostly in the form of a formal annual or semi-annual review process during which you get blindsided with feedback that sounds off-base? If so, that could be a warning sign that your boss is not going to bat for you when you’re not in the room.

Do you and your boss enjoy a collaborative relationship? Or do you feel like your boss is competing with you? If your boss competes with you, because perhaps they view you as a threat to their advancement, or as a threat to their supremacy, they’re probably not advocating for you.

If you’ve been in a role for three or five years, and there’s never been a conversation about what your future looks like, I mean, let’s be for real, Pete, if you’ve been in a role a year or two, and there hasn’t even been a conversation about what your future looks like, that may be an indication that your boss doesn’t care what your future looks like, and that they’re certainly not advocating for you and for it at tables that you may not even know exist in the organization.

Pete Mockaitis
Nicholas, I love what you’re saying in that it’s very candid and blunt, and I think some of us don’t even want to entertain the belief that this harshness, reality is present when we’re hearing a lot of nice things.

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. I have been in spaces personally and have coached leaders, and employees, students of mine who had all the raw ingredients, I mean, had all the learning, all the degrees, all the certifications, all the skills, all the receipts in terms of high performance, and yet found themselves stuck. And what happens for many people is that it’s the ultimate gaslighting. You’re left to wonder, “What did I do wrong? What did I not do right? Is it me? What am I lacking? What do I need to change? Am I too much? Am I too little? Do I need to turn up, turn down? What is it that’s wrong with me?”

And a lot of us wind up falling into cycles of anxiety and depression because we have been trained at a certain level to believe that the problem is always us. And what I’ve discovered is that there are a lot of people who are incredibly gifted and incredible contributors and collaborators who just run into managers and bosses who don’t know how to lead, or don’t know how to be humane, or are insecure.

And because this continues to do incredible damage to people in an era and a season where mental health needs are already at their highest, I feel at some level, Pete, that the truth will set the people free. And to release themselves from the fear or the feeling that they are not enough and to, perhaps, sometimes release their boss from the expectation that they will be a good advocate when perhaps they don’t want to be or don’t know how to be.

Now, I do have to rush and add this, that if you’re just a chronic underperformer, these words don’t apply to you. Like, you need to do better, right? But if you find yourself consistently meeting or exceeding expectations, you’re knocking the ball out of the park, so to speak, on a consistent basis, everyone can see your brilliance and your promise but your boss, maybe it’s not you. It might just be them. And they’re not perfect people. They’re people, they’re not perfect, but it is your life.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m wondering, if folks find themselves in this position, they might feel kind of stuck. Could you maybe give us a bit of hope, a bit of inspiration, a story of someone who saw a transformation in this department in terms of advocacy wasn’t happening and then it kicked off and good things unfolded?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. One of my coaching clients had this very scenario happen, where the boss was really great in terms of giving mentorship and guidance and coaching and feedback, very warm relationship, their families got together on weekends. I mean, it seemed like a really healthy relationship on one level, but they recognized that, at a certain level, the boss really appreciated them being in that role. Because, let’s just say they got their TPS reports in on time every time, and the concept of losing that individual to another team or to a higher level, perhaps in a different business unit, would create issues for that boss.

And so, that boss, at a level, was conspiring to suboptimize that individual by being nice, being kind, keeping them happy, but not giving them the growth opportunities that they deserved and needed to continue to fulfill their potential. So, this individual had the conversation with their boss and said, “Hey, I really enjoy being on your team. Help me see what future could look like. Help me see what next can be.” And that opened up a healthy conversation where the boss kind of came clean and said, “I knew this day would come. And I’ve really enjoyed having you on the team.”

And they kind of came clean about how there were opportunities that existed in the organization and they were waiting on that individual to come forward to raise their hand and say, “Hey, I actually do want to grow. I don’t just want more money. I don’t just want autonomy. I don’t just want flex hours. I actually want to grow. I want to be able to be my best and become even better at a higher level in the organization.”

And so, that conversation actually opened the door for the boss to advocate because the foundational relationship was in place, high performance was already acknowledged, and so this was just an invitation to the boss to move from mentor to sponsor.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Understood. And I like what you say there. It’s not necessarily evil. Like, they have warm feelings about, it’s like, “No, this person is so amazing. I feel so blessed,” and delighted to have them on their team, but it’s just a little bit of selfishness, which we all are subject to. It’s like, “This is so amazing. I don’t want this person to ever leave.”

But, again, you know that it’s a finite clock. When there’s someone amazing in a role, it’s, like, it’s only a matter of time before they go to a bigger role. And I think this is the way of all things. I think we had a handyman who was awesome and someone said, “Oh, he probably should increase his rates.” And I said, “Inevitably he will.”

Nicholas Pearce
That’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
“Because we are aware of his awesomeness.”

Nicholas Pearce
Exactly. We don’t want to be the ones to tell him that, or we’re happy to tell him as long as he keeps our rate unchanged, right? But this is exactly it. This happens a lot, you know, Pete. It happens in the nonprofit sector a ton, where you have long-serving executive directors or CEOs or presidents, they’ll be in the seat for 25, 30, 40 years. And they’ll have a talented person underneath them in the organization, who everybody within a mile can see has CEO or executive director capability. But that CEO recognizes, “I’m 55, and I have no intention to retire anytime soon.”

“So, because there’s only one CEO at a time, and I intend to sit in this seat for another 10 to 15 years, I have a choice to make. Either I invest in you becoming the very best you can be, which means losing you, or I continue to suboptimize you to make you question whether you have what it takes to be in my seat. But because I’m not ready to give up my seat to you at this time, now I’m not advocating for you. I’m not bringing your name up in the marketplace because I could lose you, and you fulfill an important part on this team. I value more what you produce than who you are.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Nicholas, you are just touching on exactly, I think, some eye-opening stuff for a lot of people, like, “What’s wrong with me?” It’s like, “Oh, this is what’s really going on under the surface. Understood.” So, lay it on us, if we find ourselves in such a position, what do we do about it?

Nicholas Pearce
Well, one very practical thing that we can all do is to look for advocacy elsewhere. Your boss may not be the only advocate you can get in your organization. Ideally, you’d have a direct supervisor who could go to bat for you because they know your work most closely, but there are other influencers who can give you the boost you need. There could be someone in the organization that is even more high ranking than your boss.

Maybe an ally who might bring your name up. Maybe it’s someone you met in the context of an employee resource group. Maybe it’s someone who you met at the company holiday party. Maybe it’s someone you ran into at a company-wide task force. Maybe it’s someone who, when the time came for the company’s intramural softball team to form, they were the person you rode to the games with. Who knows? But there are other people who can speak to you and can perhaps be an accomplice, a co-conspirator, if you will, in advancing your cause and advancing your career.

Another really helpful thing, and this is something that’s hard for a lot of us, is to build our networks outside of our organizations. For many of us, we may be socialized to feel that is disloyal or underhanded or somehow strategic in the most nefarious sense, but I believe that, what I call 360 -degree advocacy, is a gift that we should all take advantage of. We’ve got advocates above us. We’ve got advocates beside us who are our peers. And we can also have advocates in our direct reports.

Not underestimating the value of people beyond your boss in your organization can be helpful, but also people outside of your immediate workplace who may be LinkedIn connections, or are part of professional associations, or alumni groups, or other civic and community service outlets. Those individuals can speak to your promise as well and may be able to help create opportunities for you outside the organization.

And sometimes, as the saying goes, folks won’t miss the water until the well runs dry. And sometimes you give people the gift of goodbye, and it doesn’t have to be messy. It can just be an investment in self. Investing in yourself and your future does not have to be self-ish, right? Because at the end of the day, let’s face it, Pete, if someone lets you sit on the bench for 10 years and they never advocate for you, that’s 10 years of your life that are down the drain.

And they’re not going to come to you at the end of those 10 years and say, “You know what, Pete, I’m sorry you wasted your entire 30s.” It’s going to be on you to make up for that lost time. And an apology is not going to do it. You owe it to yourself. I was having a conversation with a group of executives who are whining and complaining about Millennials and Gen Z being disloyal. And I said, “Listen, y’all can complain and moan about that all day long until you recognize that companies aren’t loyal like they used to be. Unless you’re giving Gen Z a pension, which you’re not, the company’s already said, ‘Ah, we’re not really loyal to you.’”

If you say in your HR policies, that in order for a 401k or 403b to be fully vested, an individual has to work there three years, you’re telling them from the outset, “We’re investing in you, sort of. Until you’ve been here a while, we’re going to claw back part of the money we’ve invested in your retirement.” So, all of these are signals to individuals that companies aren’t loyal. And so, if companies aren’t going to be loyal to their people, how can you expect people to be loyal to their companies in the way that they were 75 years ago. The rules of the game have changed. And so, it’s not about being disloyal or selfish. It’s just about being smart.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that absolutely resonates. And that was kind of my philosophy when I started my career, it’s like, “I don’t think I can count on any employer long-term ever.” So, it felt kind of mercenary. It was like, “What can I do to make sure I have skills to do anything?” And I was like, “Strategy consulting seems like a good choice out of undergrad.”

And so, and I think it was serving well with developing some skills and some network and some savings to then go do entrepreneurial things. But, Nicholas, I got to hear, when you dropped these truth bombs on these executives whining about the Millennials, how did they reply?

Nicholas Pearce
Oh, they got it immediately. I said, “Listen, all of the participation trophies and all that stuff is cool when it’s your kid or your grandbaby out there on the soccer field getting the little trophy because they put their cleats on the right feet. But when they become your employee, all the participation trophy stuff, where you’re getting rewarded for effort, that goes out the window. It goes out the window.”

And so, recognize, that it was not the Millennials and Gen Z that made participation trophies. It was the uncles and aunts and moms and dads and coaches who could not handle walking away without a shiny object because they showed up and tried their best, and the participation trophy industry was born, but Millennials didn’t demand it. It was the world into which they came of age. They understood it as an expectation. And if Gen X and Baby Boomers had not put participation trophies in the lexicon, Millennials would not expect them in the workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. So, we’re getting a lot of good contexts from all over here. So, build the network outside the organization. Any other top tips you’d recommend? If we find ourselves not having that advocacy, what else should we do?

Nicholas Pearce
Absolutely. One of the most common cliches that I have heard that I actually believe has truth underneath it is that sometimes rejection can be protection and redirection.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. It rhymes too.

Nicholas Pearce
And so, if you find your manager not advocating for you, it could very well be an intentionally closed door that is designed to push you in the direction of purpose. This is something that I talk about a fair amount in my book which is entitled The Purpose Path: A Guide to Pursuing Your Authentic Life’s Work. And what I find is that, in many cases, the adversity that we may face, whether personally from a health perspective or otherwise, or even professionally in terms of doors that are slammed shut in our faces, sometimes that adversity is actually the grist of discovering purpose.

Oftentimes, people think that the purpose that we have in life is to just be happy. And I’m not the happiness police. I’m not anti-happiness, Pete. However, I have discovered that, oftentimes, it is those painful circumstances that push us into a place where we discover purpose that we would never have discovered before. And so, while many of us want to organize our lives around the avoidance of pain, if we avoid pain, we actually may be avoiding purpose.

Now, I’m not saying we should be trying to attract pain. Hear me clearly. All I’m saying is that sometimes when a boss doesn’t advocate, when a door closes, it could be a catalyst that is pushing you toward purpose and protecting you from calamity that you had no clue was coming your way. So, really embracing the moment in a different way and reframing it as not so much, “This is a flaw in me,” but perhaps more, “This is giving me an opportunity to reflect, to retool, to perhaps even take a break and rest and really think about how I connect my soul with my role.”

“Maybe I was just doing a job, earning a nine to five paycheck, doing the things, paying down my student loans, making the moves, doing the things. But now I actually want there to be meaning in my work. Yeah, I’ve got skills. Yeah, I work for the big shiny company with the stock options and all of the trinkets. But now I actually want to do something with my life that matters. I want to have purpose in my work. I want to connect my soul with my role.” And maybe that closed door was the catalyst to get you to see that purpose is calling.

Pete Mockaitis
That was well said. Well said. Well, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about a few of your favorite things?

Nicholas Pearce
Sure. I think that as much as we often think about what happens when others don’t advocate for us, I think that it’s important that we recognize our responsibility to advocate for others. Oftentimes, it’s very easy to think about what your boss is or is not doing for you, and you’re absorbed in what’s happening over your head, and you’re thinking that you are the main character in the organization story, and you are not.

Many of us don’t advocate for others because we’ve never been advocated for. And while that may be understandable, I don’t think that’s a valid excuse. We have to be intentional about lifting as we climb, not having the crabs-in-a-barrel mentality where only one of us can be advocated for at a time, “And if it’s not me, that means you win and I lose.” I think this zero-sum game mentality, this fixed-pie thinking is eroding the fabric of society.

And so, I think for as many people who may be attracted to our conversation today, because they find themselves in spaces where they weren’t getting advocated for, perhaps being the leader you wish you had can be a very important part of your life’s work and your own personal scorecard in terms of how you evaluate your leadership.

Pete Mockaitis
Right on. And now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Nicholas Pearce
“Weeping may endure for the night, but joy comes in the morning.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Nicholas Pearce
A favorite bit of research that I love talking about is this vintage study that was conducted by Kathy Phillips, Katie Liljenquist, and Maggie Neale. They’ve done this study looking at the power of diversity to help teams win. And the science on this from over 20 years ago is quite clear, that diverse teams can outperform homogenous teams when the task calls for creativity, innovation, information-sharing, and tackling complexity. This is a well-stated, well-worn vintage research finding. It is not a part of the recent DEI movement. This is pure science from back in the before times that many organizations know about but haven’t really embraced.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Nicholas Pearce
Necessary Endings by Henry Cloud.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Nicholas Pearce
Sabbath.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Nicholas Pearce
Favorite habit is prayer for me. It’s time to really refocus.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; you hear them quoted back to you often?

Nicholas Pearce
Yeah, oftentimes, it’s really in the space of this purpose conversation that we started to explore a little bit toward the end. And it is the fact that you owe it to yourself to live a life on purpose. You were created with a purpose. You have a reason for being. And you owe it to yourself to discover that and to do something about it.

A lot of people say that they are reflecting or meditating or praying for purpose because they need clarity on what their purpose is. And for some people, that is truly the case. But there’s a significant percentage of people who I think are probably with us today, Pete, who don’t need further clarity. They need more courage. And once they acknowledge the fact that they’ve got the clarity they need already, the missing ingredient is courage, now it’s their move.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Nicholas Pearce
NicholasPearce.org is a great place. You can connect with me on LinkedIn, social media, Facebook @napphd. I also have a TED Talk that folks have been enjoying entitled, “Don’t Ask Me What I Do.” So, any of those spaces will be great to connect.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Nicholas Pearce
Be the change you want to see. If you feel like you’re not getting advocated for, advocate for someone else. If you had a terrible onboarding experience, make someone else’s onboarding a little softer. If you feel like it’s time for you to pivot from a job, don’t be messy on the way out the door. Embrace the gift of the lessons you learned in the previous season and take the high road and walk out with grace, not looking at that past experience as time wasted, but looking at yourself perhaps as an alum of that organization or institution, and always seeking to do your best, no matter where you find yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And, Nicholas, this has been fantastic. I wish you much good advocacy and purpose.

Nicholas Pearce
Thanks, Pete. Likewise.

May 15
0

865: The Universal Principles of Successful People with Dave Crenshaw

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Dave Crenshaw says: "Fail early."

Dave Crenshaw shares valuable insights on how people succeed, gleaned from his guests on The Dave Crenshaw Success Project podcast.

You’ll Learn:

  1. One thing every professional should learn
  2. The trick to multiplying your career opportunities
  3. Why to take that risk now—not later

About Dave

Dave Crenshaw develops productive leaders in Fortune 500 companies, universities, and organizations of every size. He has appeared in Time magazine, USA Today, FastCompany, and the BBC News. His courses on LinkedIn Learning have been viewed tens of millions of times. His five books have been published in eight languages, the most popular of which is The Myth of Multitasking—a time management bestseller. As an author, speaker, and online instructor, Dave has transformed the lives and careers of hundreds of thousands around the world.

Resources Mentioned

Dave Crenshaw Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Dave, welcome back to the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Dave Crenshaw
Hey, Pete, I really appreciate it. It’s very generous of you to have me come back again. What is this, the third time?

Pete Mockaitis
I think so. I think third time is the charm, so the first two that we botched, we’ll, hopefully, redeem ourselves.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, Dave, I’m intrigued, you are up to a whole new project, and, in fact, your name is on it, and I hope it’s successful. It’s called The Dave Crenshaw Success Project, a podcast. And we talked about this back when you were just conceiving it, and it’s fun that it’s up and out in the world. So, I first wanted to hear a little bit of the story. You pursued this project not with the goal of advancing your empire as an expert, speaker, course creator, dude but something else. What’s the scoop here?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. Well, so those who aren’t familiar, I’ve written books and I’ve got courses, over 30 courses on LinkedIn Learning. I know you’ve got, gosh, a lot more than that and you’ve been very popular on that platform. And I do speaking as well, but what I wanted was something that inspired me and scratched the itch that wasn’t required by making a lot of money.

And I had a lot of different versions, and I think you and I had some conversations about different things that I could pursue but what really moved me, the thing that got me going was the idea that I want to create something for my kids. So, I have three children. My son is 17, I have a daughter who’s 13, and another daughter who is 10, my youngest, and I thought, “I want to leave a legacy to them. What could something that I can create to help them be successful but, at the same time, other people will benefit from?”

And that’s where this idea of The Success Project came from, and if I were to sum it up in a sentence, it’s that I am getting the stories of others, and you’re one of those people, we did an interview, to learn universal principles of balanced success. So, I know a lot of times in a podcast interview you bring someone on who has a book, they have a course, and you’re going to discuss that, and I think that’s great.

My goal is a little bit different. I bring someone on and I want to hear their story, and in their story, I want to figure out “What are the things that would make any person successful? And how can we apply that to ourselves? How can I apply that to my kids?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, hey, I’m all about universal principles, so, indeed, this is a great fit here. And so, I’m intrigued then, your kids, they also play a role in the production, I understand.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, the first and the most fun one is my daughter Darcy, who’s 10. She reads the outro. It’s the cutest thing you’ve ever heard in your life. It’s completely unfair for me to put that at the end because you are powerless to resist it. And my son, he does the editing, which is wonderful because now I can pay him as an editor, which helps him prepare for college.

But the fun thing that I’ve also started doing, I don’t think I had started this when you and I did the interview, Pete, is we’re doing bonus episodes where we’ll sit down and have a conversation about a principle that we learned. So, for instance, one person I interviewed was Tahani Aburaneh, and she was a refugee in Jordan, and she went from that situation to being a millionaire in real estate. And she talked about how gratitude was so essential for her success, and how her mom taught her to be grateful even when they were in these really, really difficult conditions in a refugee camp.

And so, I sat down with my kids and said, “Let’s talk about gratitude. Let’s talk about how we can be more grateful and some ways we can implement it.” So, I’ve got the regular episodes that we release where we’re hearing these stories, but then I’ve decided to have a little fun with some bonus episodes with my kids. And that’s sort of why I chose the title that I did because The Success Project is open-ended enough that it gives me a lot of latitude to try a lot of different things that will help the listener be successful and help my kids be successful.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. Well, so lay it on us, Dave, what are some principles that have really already popped off the page? Let’s hear, how many interviews have you done, first of all?

Dave Crenshaw
I’m around the 20-interview mark. So, gosh, what do you have, 2,000?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, shucks, 860-ish.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, okay. So, I’m an infant learning to crawl at this point, but I’ve started to see some really interesting threads, and I’ll start with one that I did not expect at all but it makes sense when I say it, is the importance of studying business. It is amazing to me how many people I’ve interviewed who maybe do something that is different than business.

For example, Angie Ford is one person. She owns several music schools and daycares. She studied piano, that’s what she wanted to be, was a concert pianist but, for some reason, she was interested in business and got a minor in it. And because she did that, that enabled her to be successful as an entrepreneur. And I have seen that one thing repeated over and over, whether or not that was their primary interest, someone took the time to study the principles of business and accounting and marketing and sales.

And so, I’ve told my kids, and right now, it’s kind of funny. Right now, every single one of them wants to be a writer. I did not expect that either. And so, I tell them, “Hey, study whatever you want in college, but the one requirement that I’m going to make of you is that you have to at least minor in business.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, the business skills are handy in terms of there’s just a business side to everything. No matter what you’re doing, whether you’re a baker or doing music or daycare, there is a business side. And whether you’re the owner or somewhere lower within the hierarchy of things, having that understanding is common and handy.

Dave Crenshaw
Right. Even if you’re a middle manager in a Fortune 500 company, and you’re hired to do one specific thing, let’s say communications, understanding how the company operates, and understanding cashflow and the things that determine a stock price and all of these things, they make you more savvy and more able to understand and read the tea leaves, so to speak, about what is going to be coming in the future.

And I think that you don’t have to go to college to study it. I think that, I mean, certainly listening to this podcast, someone who’s made the commitment to do that, already that says a lot about their character and their desire to learn. I think that you could start reading books. I think that there are certainly courses on LinkedIn Learning that will help you learn these skills. I would carve out part of your schedule each week, each month, to give it some attention.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious about some of your favorite resources, like learning business. Business is quite an umbrella that… is it fair to say that you’re saying a general survey understanding of management, accounting, finance, marketing, strategy? Is that what you mean by learn business?

Dave Crenshaw
Correct, yeah. Whether you took that in college, whether you’re getting it on your own, you’re saying, “Hey, I want to get a good understanding.” I know one thing that’s been really helpful for me in my career is economics. I’m turning and looking at my shelf right now. I’ve got a couple of books about economics, one called Basic Economics.

And sometimes we’re always looking for the next new title that’s going to give us some cool principle, and that’s great. I built my career on books like that but I think there’s something to be said for digging down into the fundamentals. And I recommend taking the time to drill down on some of just the fundamentals because those will influence how you perceive things that are happening in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
I dig that. Is that Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, it is.

Pete Mockaitis
I have that book. It’s a little thick. I haven’t finished it but I loved one of his points, which was to evaluate policies not based upon their intentions, because they’re all good, all policies have good intentions, but rather upon the economic incentives that they create for the different players and stakeholders.

And that made a whole lot of sense when I read that, like, “Oh, yeah, I can see how sometimes, when things don’t quite work out,” I think rent control was an example he used. It’s really helpful to put yourself in the shoes of each of the players there, like, for example, the landlords and see, “Huh, given this legislation, what might they be more or less inclined to do because they’re going to be affected by these new set of rules?” And that was a big lightbulb for me, actually.

Dave Crenshaw
Yes. And see, that’s beautiful, and that says a lot about you, the fact that you would remember that principle from reading that book. And just understanding that, if you’re in a managerial situation, now you’re going to say, “Oh, if I change something, what’s the effect on the individuals that are following me?”

And that nugget of knowledge is so basic and it’s so fundamental but it’s so useful in the same way that water is useful to our physical survival. It’s a basic, it’s a fundamental, and we want to at least spend a little time consuming those things. My career, The Myth of Multitasking, a big influence that economics had for me was the idea of microeconomics and switching costs. That’s my love of economics, and learning it is what led me to help people with time management.

And someone listening to this might have that same experience with accounting, and they enjoy that concept of first in, first out, or whatever the principles are that they’re reading, and they can make that a part of being a bricklayer. That’s a terrible example, but they can make that, those principles a part of any career that they have.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it can help you get an understanding of all sorts of mysteries. You mentioned brick laying, one of my great mysteries, Dave, is why home renovation professionals, whether the electricians or plumbers or masons or whomever, it seems like historically I’ve had a heck of a time finding someone who would actually show up and do things. And then when you do find a winner, you’re like, “Oh, my gosh, you are my plumber for life,” “You’re my electrician for life.”

But I think the principles of economics can help illustrate that. My leading theory right now is, “Hey, Pete, you are a small fry with a small job, and it takes me lots of time to get over to you and to the hardware store, etc. to get a small amount of revenue versus there are people with much bigger jobs, which take me the same amount of time and to get there and get the materials, and yet produce a whole lot more moolah for me and the team to take care of business.” That’s my current theory, at least.

But without an understanding of economics, I might just be…well, I guess I’m still frustrated because I don’t have a plumber or whatever showing up, but at least that demystifies that or inspire some ideas, like, “Huh, maybe I can work with a contractor and bundle a lot of stuff at once so I would be a more appealing customer in a world in which they could be pretty choosy when there’s not as many home renovations pros as there is a demand for their services.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, that’s a great example. And to kind of put a bow on this, I think what we want to do is say, “How does this apply to me?” I think the tendency of most people, and I’ve seen this in my coaching and training, the tendency of most people is to listen to new knowledge and say, “That doesn’t apply to me. Well, I’m going to ignore that part of what I just read because that doesn’t apply to me.”

The question we want to ask ourselves is, “How does this apply to me? How can I make this principle of accounting apply in my job in HR?” And if you just take the time to drill down and think about it and pause for a second, you’ll find applications.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool, and I like that taking the time to actively think. And when you’re drawing a blank, I’ll tell you what, I have been playing around a lot with this, with AI and ChatGPT. I did it a year ago and thought that was kind of some cool tricks, but now with the upgraded powers, it’s pretty cool. Like, that’s the kind of a prompt that can really spark some ideas going. It’s like, “Hey, I am in this business and I just learned this concept, how is this at all applicable to me? And then give me 10 ideas.” And then it does, it’s like, “Oh, okay.”

And then that’s what I found to be most useful for. Its final product, headlines, and teasers, and copy is inadequate in my opinion, but as a little brainstormer thought partner, I’m finding all kinds of fun little uses there.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
And then that might be another subject associated with learning stuff that’s a principle, like learn business. We mentioned basic economics and basic principles of business. Are there any other resources that you found just absolutely killer?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one common thread that I’ve seen so far in the interviews that I’ve done, I’ve seen this also with people that I’ve coached through the years, is taking advantage of bonus opportunities. And what I mean by that is…well, I’ll give you an example. So, I interviewed Kwame Christian. You know Kwame, right? Have you had him on your show?

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed.

Dave Crenshaw
So, one of the things that he mentioned was that he took advantage of debate club as he was going to school. And he participated in that, and that participation opened up his eyes to the idea of negotiation and how to have difficult conversations. And I’ve seen that several times where someone is, they’re going to school, they’re participating in something, and there’s this ancillary opportunity that isn’t really going to show up on a resume for a job application, and they go participate in it, and that participation leads them to something new.

And it goes back to that idea of people think there’s one path to success. The path is you pick a career, you go to school and study that career, you get your grades then you go and work somewhere. But the reality is it’s the little opportunities that you might take for granted, the things that are going to help you figure out what you really want to do, and they’re going to help you grow in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I believe you highlighted that as a theme in my interview when you had me in terms of, “Oh, that stuff you were doing in college, in high school, in terms of giving that speech. You’re like, ‘Oh, speaking is awesome. And it’s interesting that other people are terrified of this, and yet I’m super jazzed about it. Hmm, there’s a lesson there.’”

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, and it also highlights the idea that go where your strengths are. And I was just reviewing the interview that I had with Kwame, he said, “Go where your curiosity is.” And it’s not so much about your passion. Your passion can be useful but I was passionate about playing music and being a rock star, not necessarily a very usable career for me.

But I was curious about entrepreneurship, I was curious about time management. I would go to the extra lectures where I went to school, and listen to entrepreneurs talk about their experience. Those things that I was curious about are the things that became most influential in my career. So, someone listening to this, you can ask yourself, “What am I most interested in that maybe isn’t a part of my career at the moment? Am I giving myself opportunities to immerse myself in those things?” and do a little bit of it even if it’s outside of the everyday work that you do.

And when you do that, you’re opening your mind, you’re opening your time, you’re opening your opportunities to probably what is going to lead to the most success in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. And something that’s come up in my podcast a number of times is folks to actually look back at what you were super interested in when you were younger can have some real clues for you. Like, before you were obligated, mandated, directed, desperate for cash, any number of pressures entered your world, what was just kind of interesting to you that you were curious about, that you dug into.

And you may very well not become a professional baseball player or a rock star or a magician, kind of whatever that might’ve been, but there’s something under the surface there in terms of, “Oh, with the magic tricks, it was delighting an audience,” or with rock roll, it’s kind of learning a thing and just getting immersed, or a sense of mastery, and sort of see just kind of “What’s the thing underneath the thing if you’re not going to be a pro sports guy or a rock and roll person?”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, what are the principles, what did I gain from this experience? And whether or not you’re in that career, what you learned in it will help you the most. That’s something I see with my wife who is a high school swim coach. And the reality is most of the kids that she coaches won’t be swimming past high school. Most aren’t even going to get a college scholarship. So, what are the moments within that extracurricular activity that give them an opportunity to grow and learn life skills about hard work, and persistence, and working with team members?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. I’d also love to hear you, Dave, tell me, did you see any conventional wisdom get skewered along the way in terms of maybe there are some tropes or standard-issue truth, wisdom, guidance, that is bellied about that your guests have actually revealed, “No, actually, it turns out that’s wrong, and here’s a better way”?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, that’s a really interesting question, Pete, and I’m going to tread delicately here with it.

Pete Mockaitis
Can’t wait.

Dave Crenshaw
But I think it’s important to be said that I think there is a concept out there that having a family holds you back, that your kids are going to slow you down and keep you from being successful if you choose to have kids. Or, even, “I need to wait later in my life to get married because marriage to my spouse is going to hold me back.”

And I have found that in both of those cases, the opposite is true. Let’s talk about children for just a second. Or, even if you choose to be a caretaker of someone else. What that does is it enforces limitations in your day. First, just setting aside all the wonderful benefits of being a parent, which there are, just from a structural standpoint in your career, it forces you to not work crazy hours.

And if you love your children, you’re going to want to say, “How can I spend time with them? And if I have to spend time with them, that means that I won’t be able to wake up at 6:00 o’clock in the morning and work all the way to 9:00 p.m. I’m going to have to find breaks.” And that relationship creates a boundary that forces you to figure out how to be more productive.

It’s really sloppy productivity to allow yourself to work long hours. You’re just masking a bunch of inefficiencies in your day when you allow yourself to work those hours. But if you say, “I’m not going to go past 5:00 p.m.” and I call this principle the finish line. You define what your finish line is in the day, “I’m not going to cross that.” Well, if you have to stop working by 5:00 p.m. because your kids are going to be coming home, you’re going to have to figure out, “How can I get everything done?”

And if you have to figure that out, now I got to say, “How can I do a better job at delegation? How can I do a better job of automation? How can I do a better job of focusing on what’s most valuable?” So, that’s one of the first themes that I’ve heard come up several times. And the other one is the value of a great partner.

And, however you structure that partnership with another human being, whether that’s through marriage or just through a long-term committed relationship, the idea is that person creates a ground and a balance to what you’re doing. And, of course, this is assuming you’ve made a great choice, or at least a good choice, but having that person in your life creates stability, creates confidence, and you can divide the labor between the two of you in a way that’s useful, and that will help you grow in your career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I’ve also heard stories that once folks become aware, “Oh, we’re pregnant. Baby is on the way,” suddenly, the motivation…

Dave Crenshaw
Oh, that’s my story.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, the motivation, the seriousness really gets kicked up a notch, it’s like, “Okay, no, for real, I’m going to make this thing work.”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah. When I give my speeches about The Myth of Multitasking, that’s one of the first things that I bring up. The two words that changed everything in my life, and changed my career, were, “I’m pregnant.” And when I heard those, I thought, “My gosh, I need to start getting more focused, and there’s this life coming in this world,” and that caused me to make that transition from maybe just pursuing my passion to pursuing a passion that was profitable. And that led me to returning to my work as a business coach and preparing how to be an author. That story still colors everything I do to this day.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we’ve covered some things that are great to do. What are some things you really recommend that we not do?

Dave Crenshaw
Yes, I would say don’t be afraid to fail. A lot of people are so concerned that something isn’t going to work out, that they stop from making any kind of attempt. And I would say do not allow that to prevent you from taking risks. And, especially, don’t allow yourself to say, “In the future, at some point, I’m going to take this risk.”

The earlier you take that risk, the less costly it will be. So, if you’re listening to this right now and you’re just starting your career, and you’re not married, and you’re just coming out of college, whatever, now is the best time to take that sort of risk, so don’t hold back. And even if you say, “Well, I’m married and I’m a little bit further down my career,” now is a better time to take that risk than five years from now, or ten. Fail early.

And that will create more opportunities. And if you fail, great, but you can recover from it. And I wasn’t afraid to fail early in my career, and I did, and it took a while to recover from it, but that was also an opportunity to learn and to grow. And that is often just as, if not more educational than an official college degree.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really cool perspective there, to take the risk earlier gives you more opportunities to recover, or to pivot, or to take advantage of the things that you’ve learned, the relationships you’ve built, the discoveries that you’ve made, as opposed to if you wait ten years, or however long, you will just have less time to pivot, sort it out, make good things from the pieces and the ashes that have emerged from that failure. That’s really cool.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I know someone who just began their journey as an entrepreneur and owning their own business, and that’s great that they’re pursuing it, but the sad thing is they’re on the downward side of middle age, and for 30 or more years, he’s always wanted to own his own business. That’s a long time to hold on to that regret. Whereas, if he pursued it earlier, either he would have succeeded or he would not have that anymore, and say, “You know what, I took a try at that, I don’t have to think about it anymore.”

It’s funny, that’s part of the narrative that my wife and I have around my attempting to be a rock star. I had a band, I wrote songs, and sang keys, and I was doing that in my mid to late 20s. Now I can look back and say, “Wow, I’m glad I’m not doing that anymore. That was crazy.” And we’ll go somewhere and I’ll see a band setting up or something, and I’m, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so glad I’m not doing that.”

But if I had never done it, where would I be right now? “Oh, I could’ve done it.” I’m like Uncle Rico in Napoleon Dynamite talking about how I could throw the football over those mountains. Give it a shot. Even if you do it part time in conjunction with the job that you’ve got, give it a try now and then you can confidently move on with your life, or something amazing will happen because of your hard work and because of the risks that you took.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool, to get a real sense of what is the reality associated with this dream. And I think folks have found it really does go both ways in terms of, “Hmm, professional music or being a lawyer or whatever, is just the coolest or is, wow, not for me. Good to know early and reorient from there.”

Dave Crenshaw
Indeed, yeah. That’s it, do it now. Give it a try now and you’ve still got time to learn from it and to do something else if it doesn’t work out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Dave, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one thing that I really thought about and, as you mentioned at the beginning, you’ve done 800 episodes, another principle and a pattern of success is consistency over years, and I’ve seen this in my work with entrepreneurs. They’ll get started, they’ll start a business, they’ll go for a year, maybe two, and then they start getting bored, and they start doing something else.

And sometimes, well, you’ve seen this, Pete, let’s just talk about podcasting for a second. You go online, and how many podcasts do you see listed that have one to three episodes, right? There are 8 million podcasts but how many of them really go beyond the first five or so episodes? Not most. Most are less than that. And it illustrates the idea that when we start something, we’ve got to stick at it for a while. We got to keep going at it for a while.

And I’ve seen this with my own career, for instance, my courses with LinkedIn Learning. I started out in 2011 when it was Lynda.com, and it was my first course. There’s so much value in being a part of that and having a partnership with someone, like in my case, LinkedIn Learning, and your case as well, for 12 years. When you’re in the pipeline that long, more people have an opportunity to learn about you.

And if you think about something that you’re passionate about, I’m talking to the listener now, if you think about something you’re passionate about and you want to pursue, make a commitment to do it for a good long while. And just the principle of longevity and consistently doing it will lead to paying off. I like to say that impatience is the enemy of success. And the reason why it’s the enemy of success is it causes us to pull up roots too early.

And I use pulling up roots because I’m thinking of, like, a farming metaphor. We plant the seeds, we put water on them, and then we go away for a little bit, and then maybe we come back a little bit later, and we look at it, and go, “Oh, well, it hasn’t grown anything.” A lot of people in that situation go, “Well, this was terrible. I’m not doing this anymore,” and they just rip everything up, when we’ve got to give it time, we’ve got to keep nurturing it, we’ve got to keep feeding it, and then, after a while, you’ll start to see the fruits of your labor.

So, I recognize that what you’ve accomplished, Pete, in your podcast, a lot of it is talent, a lot of it is the hard work, but a lot of it, too, is just the fact that you have just kept at it for 800 episodes.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it’s true. Things do pay off with consistency over time. Not always. Sometimes it’s like, “Hey, entrepreneur, that concept just isn’t hitting the mark for people.” And so, I think it’s a matter of saying…

Dave Crenshaw
But you’ve got to give it enough time to really figure that out.

Pete Mockaitis
Exactly. And so, I think about it from a hypothesis-driven thinking in terms of, “Okay, what do we need to learn? What are testing?” And I think, “Hmm, I’m kind of bored. I want to do something else,” is not a great reason as opposed to… I think about my failed businesses, it’s like, “Hmm, not a single person ever bought this thing. It seems they don’t actually want it after all.” So, then you could just say, “Well, maybe let’s pivot, adjust the offer.” Or if there’s no good adjustments to be made, it’s like, “Okay. Well, it’s time to say goodbye and move on and collect the learnings.

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, and I’m aware of the paradox of what we just talked about because, just before this, we were talking about failing and failing early. And now I’m saying, “Keep at it for a good long while.” So, the question is, “How can you tell the difference between the two?” If you don’t mind, Pete, I’m going to turn that on you for a second. How do you personally tell the difference between when you’ve failed and when you just need to stay consistent?

Pete Mockaitis
I think it’s really a matter of looking at the evidence and, ideally, thinking about sort of tests, experiments, hypotheses, like, “What would need to be true for this thing to be successful?” and to see if there are some indicators. Like, I think in this business world, if it’s like, “Hey, you know what, we have successfully gotten 20 clients who are just love, love, love what we’re doing here, but we haven’t quite managed to get to a breakeven positive cashflow point.”

Well, I think that says you got something. I would not walk away from that lightly or if you’re bored. I would say, “Well, let’s figure out what are the remaining challenges we have to solve, and then solve them,” versus, “We’ve tried a dozen different marketing channels and not a single person has opted to part with their money for this thing we thought was so cool. Maybe this thing isn’t really resonating.”

And then you might choose to say, “Exit entirely,” or say, “Well, maybe it needs to be tweaked to make it more appealing, or maybe there’s a different segment that would really be into it. Maybe we were trying to go broad but, at the end of the day, this is really going to appeal to roofers, and we’d go all in on roofers,” or kind of whatever the segment is. So, I guess that’s how I would think about distinguishing it, is, “What evidence and signals have we collected to indicate this thing could be a winner versus not?”

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, I completely agree with what you said. And so, if I were to put my own spin on it, I would say break it into milestones. So, it’s so easy when we engage in an experiment to think only long term, “Five years from now, this is where I’m going to be and I’m going to cash out of my business and own a private island.”

But the real question is, “What is the experiment of this month? What’s the milestone that we’re trying to accomplish this month? Were we successful in accomplishing that? Was I able to get this many customers because I was able to get this many people to listen?” whatever it is. And then you move from that milestone to the next one that’s maybe a little bit bigger.

So, you want to create a pattern of success but also set the milestones of success at more realistic and reasonable things in the beginning, so then you just go from success to success, bigger and bigger, as you go along. Or, you have a string of months where you’re not hitting any of the milestones and you stop, and say, “Okay, maybe there’s something wrong with this experiment that I’m engaging in.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds good. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dave Crenshaw
Yeah, my favorite one, and someone who really inspires me is Bob Ross. And I know Bob Ross has almost become a meme these days but the reality is, as an educator and his ability to reach people, he had a gift that not many people possess. So, as someone who teaches people, I look at the way he does it.

Obviously, my personality is not quite the same but his love, his passion inspires me. And so, one of my favorite quotes, and I got a big custom poster made, it’s framed on my wall, and the quote is, “Every time you devote time to practice, you haven’t lost. You’re always a winner.” And if I’m reinterpreting that phrase, I’m saying, “Everything that you do is practice. Everything that you attempt is useful. Even if you fail, if you can learn from it, then you didn’t fail at all. You’re still winning.”

And, boy, Pete, do I refer back to this mentally when I engage in those experiments that don’t work out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Dave Crenshaw
I’ll answer this in an indirect way, probably not what you’re expecting. But as a coach and as an educator, I’m a big believer in the experiment of one. And what I mean by that is sometimes we’ll read a study, and it will say, “Seventy percent of people found that taking a break at work makes them more productive, it makes them more effective.” And that’s something that I teach. But what I want to, instead, say is don’t rely on the experiment of others because you might be in the 30%.

Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself. Give yourself time to try something that you’ve heard for the first time, and experiment it. I like two-week experiments. Really give it a try for two weeks, and then, at the end of that, assess, “What did your experiment of one give you? Did it work for you? Are there any adjustments that you’d make?” Then, that way, and you keep referring back to it, now you’re becoming the scientist of your own life rather than depending on other people to tell you what you should do based on some study.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Dave Crenshaw
Actually, I’m going to mention something that is really off the beaten path but something I’m passionate about, and it’s Hustle 2.0 has a series of books. And I would encourage anyone to look it up. Hustle 2.0 is a program that teaches people who are incarcerated, how to turn their lives around.

And so, the books, they’ve got three of them, teach people who have been through trauma, and teach people who have been through some really rough life experiences, how to overcome it, how to be stronger on the other side. And the curriculum is written by people who have been incarcerated. And the reason why this is top of mind is I just recently went to the Utah State Correctional Facility and met a lot of people who have used this book, and I’ve read it, and I’ve even talked about it with my kids.

And it’s so powerful to see how a book written by someone who has been in that situation can completely change their lives. So, yeah, it’s a hard one to get but you can find it at Hustle20.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Dave Crenshaw
Everyone likes to ask me, “This is a time management guy, what’s your favorite tool?” And my favorite tool is the one that everybody already has, they just don’t use it properly, and that’s your calendar. I just use that for everything. Even if I’m scheduling time to take time off, I’m scheduling everything in the calendar and I’d wager to guess that everyone listening to this could do a little bit better job of using their calendar to help them be productive.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dave Crenshaw
I’ll share one that I didn’t do for a long time. I’ve done a much better job recently of taking care of my physical health. And if we’re talking about the podcast, too, one of the things that I want to do is interview people who have balanced success. And I’ve learned through the wrong way that not being healthy ruins everything.

It doesn’t matter what you’ve accomplished in your career, in your life, if you’re feeling physically miserable. It’s not much of a success at all. So, I’ve done a much better job of the habit of exercising regularly. I try to do it at least five times a week with both cardio and some lifting. And, boy, it’s made everything a lot better for me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key quote you’re famous for, Dave?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, one that pops to the top of my mind is “Whenever you say yes to one thing, you’re saying no to something else.”

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds like an opportunity cost.

Dave Crenshaw
There you go, exactly. There’s that economics influencing things. And it works in a microeconomic situation, a nano economic situation. When you’re making choices in your day to say yes to something, something has to give. It’s always a tradeoff. So, say yes to the most valuable things, and say no to things that are less valuable.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dave Crenshaw
The easiest place is DaveCrenshaw.com. Crenshaw is C-R-E-N-S-H-A-W. And you can find my podcast there, you can subscribe to it there, all sorts of stuff. And, of course, if you’re on LinkedIn, please look me up and follow me on LinkedIn as well.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dave Crenshaw
Well, it didn’t come up during our conversation, or I had mentioned it just briefly, be grateful. That’s another principle of people who are successful. Every day, look for something that’s going well, and express gratitude for it. And what that will do is it will make you more open to the things that make you happy, and make everything you do for work more enriching and rewarding.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Dave, this has been a treat. I wish you much fun and success with your Success Project.

Dave Crenshaw
Thank you very much, Pete. Really generous of you to have me on. Thank you.

Mar 16
0

848: How to Quickly Grow and Future-Proof Your Career with Jason Feifer

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Jason Feifer says: "If you only focus on what you already know, you will only be qualified to do the thing you’re already doing."

Jason Feifer shares the simple things you can do today to set yourself up for a more successful tomorrow.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The mindset that helps you uncover hidden opportunities.
  2. Why real growth happens outside your role.
  3. The biggest career mistake professionals make.

About Jason

Jason Feifer is the editor in chief of Entrepreneur magazine, a startup advisor, host of the podcasts Build For Tomorrow and Problem Solvers, and has taught his techniques for adapting to change at companies including Pfizer, Microsoft, Chipotle, DraftKings, and Wix. He has worked as an editor at Fast Company, Men’s Health, and Boston magazine, and has written about business and technology for the Washington Post, Slate, Popular Mechanics, and others.

Resources Mentioned

Jason Feifer Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jason, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Jason Feifer
Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to dig into the wisdom of your book Build for Tomorrow: An Action Plan for Embracing Change, Adapting Fast, and Future-Proofing Your Career. But, first, I think we need to hear a little bit about you’ve been living without a sense of smell even way before COVID made that a more common thing for people. What’s the story here?

Jason Feifer
Yes, I felt like people were stealing my cool, fun fact when everybody started losing their sense of smell. The story is that when I was in college, I was dating a girl who had a very, very good sense of smell and taste. And for the first time in my life, she started asking me questions, like, “What herb is in here? Did you taste the rosemary in that?” or whatever, these questions nobody asked you when you’re in high school.

And I didn’t know what she was talking… I just didn’t know what she was talking about. I had no idea what she was talking about. And we realized maybe something weird is happening. So, we did a taste test, which was that I closed my eyes and she fed me different flavors of ice cream, like chocolate and vanilla and whatever, and they were all exactly the same. I had no sense.

And this was not a new thing, this was just the first time that I’ve realized that I had no perception of this at all. I’d gone through my life, up until that point, not aware that I was not perceiving things the way that everybody else in the world was. And I’ve since gone to a taste and smell clinic and done a lot of research into this and found that just an endless variety of things can impact your sense of smell, everything from nasal polyps to a brain tumor.

In my case, it was probably head trauma as a child. I fell out of a stroller when I was very little. This was what my parents told me as soon as I told them about this.

Pete Mockaitis
But they didn’t tell you before, Jason. They’re holding on that under the vest until…

Jason Feifer
Well, you know, it wasn’t that relevant a piece of information many years later. It was just I fell out of a stroller. I was in traction, apparently, but life moved on so I wasn’t aware of it. But once I told my parents the leading causes of this are…if something has come and gone, you can’t find some other active medical issue.

The leading causes of this are head trauma, chemical exposure, or an upper respiratory infection that just happens to get up into your olfactory nerve. My parents said, “Oh, my God, the head trauma.” And so, now we probably know. And, in the meantime, everything tastes exactly the same to me, which is it tastes like nothing.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow. So, I’m curious then, before you realized that this was going on, did you have any differentiation between, “I’m eating steak,” versus ice cream. I mean, there’s texture, but, like, the taste was just about the same to you?

Jason Feifer
Yeah, but I didn’t know that it was supposed to taste any different. You’re wearing glasses right now, and I wear contacts, which means that there was a time in your life where you put on glasses for the first time. Do you remember that time?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Jason Feifer
Do you remember your experience of that?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it was fun, it was like, “Oh, wow, it’s like all the font became semi-bold. That’s kind of nice.”

Jason Feifer
Right. I remember the first time I realized two things. One, you can look at carpet and see individual fibers and, two, you can look at trees and see individual leaves. That was more information than I was ever getting before and I didn’t know that the average person got that information. And the same is true with this. I just didn’t know that this information was available to other people.

I thought, when people talked about flavors, they were talking about such insanely subtle differences between things that I probably just didn’t care about them. I didn’t realize that they are fundamentally different. And I still don’t really understand what it means. Like, wine is a funny thing to me. Every wine is exactly the same to me. So, I don’t know what people are talking about when they take a sip of wine, and they list off all these notes. It’s a complete foreign experience.

Pete Mockaitis
And I guess wine might also be the same to you as tea or water.

Jason Feifer
More or less. So, wine has alcohol, and you can feel the alcohol. So, there’s something that’s a little different there. And there’s a little quick science lesson, which is that, so let’s say wine, let’s say you take a sip of wine. This happens, functionally, simultaneously, but the first thing that happens is that the wine will hit your tongue. And that is the sensation of actual taste, which is just sweet, salty, sour, bitter. It’s just categorical.

Then odor molecules from the wine go to the back of your throat and up, and they’re read by your olfactory nerves, which is what controls your sense of smell. And that is actually what creates the sensation of flavor. Flavor is you smelling something inside of your mouth, basically. So, I can get sweet, salty, sour, bitter because my tongue works just fine. The problem is olfactory nerves so I can’t get flavor. So, it’s the difference between chocolate is sweet but it is not chocolate, and, therefore, vanilla and chocolate and strawberry ice cream are all exactly the same, they’re just sweet.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Jason, it seems like you have adapted and functioned well despite this challenge. Kudos.

Jason Feifer
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
And, boy, what a metaphor, the idea of putting on glasses for the first time or realizing that your perception is different when it comes to other folks are picking up on flavors. Can you give us, we’ll put you on the spot, a segue for some lessons that are also similar, relevant, comparable, to those found in your book Build for Tomorrow?

Jason Feifer
It was a great setup for a segue, and I’m happy to take the challenge. So, I would say the transition here is that there is a way of learning how to think such that you see doors where other people see walls, in the same way that I saw blobs of green until I see leaves. And this isn’t, fortunately, something that you need to go out to a doctor to see, and it’s also something that everyone has access to, unlike me who cannot fix my sense of smell, because what it really requires is an understanding that we spend too much energy debating whether or not something should happen when it has already happened.

We spend a lot of time and energy trying to hold onto what we were comfortable with, and then trying to push back against inevitable change. And that’s counterproductive because if the change is happening then we have to deal with it. And the thing that I have learned from spending so much time, years and years, with entrepreneurs and innovative leaders is that there is a way to think about this experience.

There is a way to recognize your transferrable value. There’s a way to understand that the things that are in front of us are opportunities that when something changes, it just doesn’t change for us, it changes for everybody, which means that we are actually now in a situation where other people need new things, and we can rise up and serve them, and be the person who solves their problems.

That if we’re working in a job, that we can spend a lot of our energy figuring out how to be good at that next job even if we don’t know what that next job is. That the more that we build into the way that we just run our lives, the reality that a lot of the things that we do are going to change, the more we can start to prepare for it, and, ultimately, open up opportunities in the future.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s cool. And I love that notion of seeing doors where everyone else sees walls. And, boy, we talked about high school, this just brings me back to a high school memory in which I was in an organization that’s called the National Honor Society, and I think I was a junior, and we did very little in this organization, which I saw it was kind of silly. It’s like we’re honored, it’s like okay. But there’s supposed to be, like, service and such.

And I remember the advisor asked, “Who would like to organize the clothing drive?” and then nobody was volunteering. And I heard, “Who would like to be the National Honor Society president next year?” because it’s like, “If we do almost nothing, and then you do the one major thing that we do, then, in an election sense, you would win that.”

And at the time, I was very, I guess, ambitious, and resume-conscious, and thinking about college applications, and looking amazing, all that stuff, so, for me, that represented an opportunity, and I was sort of surprised that nobody was interested in it, and I felt like I needed to. And maybe I was a sophomore. I felt like I should hang back and let the upperclassmen take it but then nobody did after about seven seconds, I was like, “Well, I’m taking it now.” I raised my hand and, sure enough, I became the president.

Jason Feifer
Congratulations.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Yeah, I don’t know how much of a difference it made in my grand scheme of trying to look super impressive on applications or whatever, but I think that goes to show that I’ve had other times where I was at a podcast conference and someone showed me their app, and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, your app shows how many people are subscribed to a given podcast within that app?” And he’s like, “Yeah.” “Well, that means I could use these data to extrapolate against known podcasts audience sizes to estimate the size of any podcast, which is massively valuable when you’re assessing opportunities.”

And so, I think that really resonates in terms of when you see a door where other see walls, I have had those moments, like, I see something other people don’t see, and because of that, cool things are opening up. So, lay it on us, Jason, how do we get there?

Jason Feifer
How do we get there? A lot of different ways to get there. Those are good little stories. Let’s start with this. This isn’t something that you just do all of a sudden. This is something that you build towards. These are habits and ways of thinking that help you operate, make decisions, do something now that’s going to pay off tomorrow. I’ll give you a couple ways to think about it.

Number one, we’ll start with this. We should all be doing something in our own work that I like to call work your next job. And work the next job is this. Look, in front of you, Pete, in front of me, in front of everyone who’s listening to this right now, there are two sets of opportunities. You can call them opportunity set A and opportunity set B.

Opportunity set A is everything that is asked of you. So, you have a boss, and that boss needs you to do things, and you show up and you’re evaluated on whether or not you have done those things well. that is opportunity set A, do a good job. Opportunity set B is everything that’s available to you that nobody is asking you to do. And that could be at work, you could join a new team. You could take on a new responsibility.

It could also be things outside of work, like listening to podcasts then you decide to start your own. Whatever the case is, here is my argument to you. Opportunity set B is always more important. Infinitely more important than anything else. And the reason for that isn’t opportunity set A, doing the things that are asked of you, is unimportant. It is important. You have to do it or you will get fired. You need to earn money, but opportunity set B is where growth happens.

If you only focus on what you already know, you will only be qualified to do the thing you’re already doing, but opportunity set B is where growth happens. That is where you start to lay the foundation for payoff that you cannot even imagine, and you don’t need to know what the ROI is on it. You should just be doing things because you find them interesting, informative, because they create new skillsets, new opportunities, because you’re thinking about, “What do I need to learn? And have I learned it yet?”

I’ll give you an example for myself. When I was at Fast Company years ago, I was a senior editor at Fast Company years and years ago, and a senior editor is something of a misnomer. It just means you’re kind of a mid-level editor, and my job was to be on the print magazine. I was a print magazine editor. And then the company brought in the video department, launched a video department. Nobody asked me to be a part of this video department but I volunteered to stand in front of the camera and see if I could be a host, see if I could host some shows.

And I had some kind of raw instinct on it, and the director really helped me hone it, and I got good, and I wondered, “What is the point of this? Why am I doing this? Is someone going to offer me a television show?” No, nobody offered me a television show. But I learned a couple of really valuable things. Number one, I learned to talk the way that I’m talking right now, which is to say to be animated, to kind of fluctuate the way in which I’m louder and then I’m softer, and I’m just trying to keep your interest.

Also, I learned how to be good on camera, how to move, how to think, how not to say uh a million times, and that then translated into a bunch of other skills like standing on stage. And, as a result, years later, when I was interviewing to be editor-in chief of Entrepreneur magazine and I’m talking to the president and CEO of the company, one of the things that they really liked about me was that I could represent the brand well, that they knew that, in hiring me, they had a face of the brand who could go on TV and could go on stage, and that helped me get this role.

And then, once I got this role, I started getting invitations to come speak on stage and make money doing so, and now that’s a really nice business for me. All of that I attribute to standing in front of a camera at Fast Company when nobody asked me to do that, and to just start learning. I was working my next job without having any idea what that next job was. And you, right now, have that opportunity in front of you. There are things available to you, nobody is asking you to do it so you have to do it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s cool and beautiful. I guess my first thought in terms of that being challenging is there are a billion potential things you could go do.

Jason Feifer
Sure, there are.

Pete Mockaitis
So, how do we figure out which of these things are particularly worthwhile for us?

Jason Feifer
Well, the answer is that you cannot know so you’re going to have to take some bets, and you’re going to treat them as experiments. And this is important because something that we do too often is we think of every new thing that we try or do as a full commitment and, as a result, we don’t do them often enough. I was talking to two people who really informed my understanding of this. One is Katy Milkman who is at Wharton, and then Annie Duke who also has a Wharton connection.

Pete Mockaitis
Two fun guests of How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Jason Feifer
There you go. Well, I shall remind perhaps your listeners of things that they said, but Katy told me, we were talking about change and how to manage change, and I said, “What is the simplest thing that somebody can do?” And she said, “This is going to sound kind of like a pat answer, but the answer is experiment.”

And the reason for that is because most people do not. They think that everything that they do has to be a full-time commitment, and, therefore, they’re afraid to try it in the first place. But if we just go into everything, thinking, “This is an experiment, and I’m going to run it for a couple days, a couple weeks, a couple months, and I’m going to see if it gives me something.”

Well, then, you know what, even if it doesn’t work out, even if it’s not all that compelling to you, it is valuable. And it’s going to be valuable because you’re going to have treated it like an experiment, which means that if it doesn’t work, it’s not failure, it’s data. And that is a much more constructive way to think.

Annie, meanwhile, Annie has this great book called Quit, about why quitting is a great decision-making strategy. And she told me, and this really snapped this into focus for me, she said, “Look, imagine that you had to marry the first person you dated. What would you do? The answer is you would never date. You’d just never do it because you’d be afraid of making that commitment.”

The reason why we’re able to find the person who is right for us, hopefully, is because we are able to quit lots of other people before. We try and then we quit. And Annie said, “You have to just think of that for everything. We date ideas. We date projects. We date jobs. And we’re going to quit the ones that don’t work.”

So, to your question, “How do we figure out which ones to pursue?” I always start with, “What is compelling to me? What excites me? What builds upon, in some ways, the skills that I already have but takes me in a different direction? How do I think vertically, basically, instead of horizontally?” Entrepreneurs, I found, have this really magical way of thinking, which is vertical thinking, which is to say, “The only reason to do something is because it creates the foundation upon which the next thing can be built.”

Whereas, most people, myself included for a lot of my career, really think horizontally, which is to say I do something and then maybe I move along and I do something unrelated, and then I move along and I do something unrelated, and that doesn’t build, that doesn’t give me an ever-growing foundation so that I can level up, so that I can do more, so that I can accumulate people and connections and skills and insights that are, ultimately, all going to power whatever the next thing is that I do.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s cool. Vertical thinking, yeah. Can you give us some examples of that in practice? So, you shared your instance of communication then getting on camera. Any other examples to make that vertical thinking concept land for folks?

Jason Feifer
Yeah, sure. So, here’s something really simple. For years, my career has been in media. I worked in a number of newspapers and then a number of national magazines, and now I also make podcasts, write books and stuff, and I run a national magazine. And throughout much of that time, I really thought of myself as mostly a servant to the task.

So, when I was at Men’s Health, for example, I would write about this thing, and then I’d move along and I’d write about that thing, and anybody who I met along the way is sand through fingers. You meet people and then you move along. And when I got to Entrepreneur, I started to realize I am meeting all of these people and I’m not taking any care to how they can be part of an ever-growing and useful network because I’m going to be doing things in the future, not now, but in the future where maybe I need these people.

And, like, for example, a book. We’re talking, we’re sort of prompted by that I have this book Build for Tomorrow come out, and I knew, years from now, I will have this book and I will need as many people as possible who like me, and who have audiences, and who I can call upon. And so, if I’m thinking vertically, what does that mean?

That means that I must accumulate, that the reason to do something is because it is going to build a foundation upon which the next thing will be built. Every little interaction that I have can be part of that. I created a spreadsheet; it’s called Good Contacts. Everybody I meet goes in it. Everybody. It’s a Google Sheet, and it has a million tabs in it – investors, media, entrepreneurs. And I’ve been doing this for years and years.

And when I launched my book, the very first thing I did, or months before, was I went into this sheet, and I started going through everybody. Rather, years before, I kept going through that sheet and I would reach out to people and I would check in with them, and I would say, “Hey, I loved that thing you just did.” “Hey, is there anything that I can help you out with?” Why? Because when you gather people, the last thing that people want is to only hear from you when you need something from them, so you got to be warm, you got to treat it like a real relationship.

And this kind of thing is something that I now try to apply to everything that I do, which is basically, “How can I use today for tomorrow? What is it that I have right now, what thing am I building, what thing am I thinking about, what do I have access to, how can I make decisions where I’m putting my energy towards setting myself up for tomorrow even if I don’t exactly know what I need tomorrow? But what I do know is that today is an opportunity to do that, and I want to be mindful of it?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. All right. Well, now, I’m shifting gears a little bit, when you talk about change, you mentioned there’s four phases of change. Can you give us that overview picture and some pro tips on what do we do to change well?

Jason Feifer
Yeah. All right. So, here’s the theory that I came up. I came up with this theory that change happens in four phases: panic, adaptation, new normal, wouldn’t go back. Wouldn’t go back being that moment where we say, “I have something, some new and valuable that I wouldn’t want to go back to a time before I had it.”

And this came out of pre-pandemic. I had come to this conclusion that the most successful people that I met were also the most adaptable, and I wanted to understand what it was that they were doing and how they were thinking. And then the pandemic was a really fascinating experiment because what happened was you got to see everybody go through the same change at the same time and then radically diverge.

And some people moved forward, some people reinvented, others tried to cling as tightly as possible to whatever came before and whatever they felt like they were losing. And I wanted to understand what it was that the people who were moving fast and forward were doing and thinking. And they’re doing a lot of things but I’ll start by sharing this one.

Most of us make a mistake, and the mistake that we make is that we identify too closely with the output of our work or with the role that we occupy so that if someone came up to you at a party and asked what you did, your answer would be one of those two things. It would either be a thing that you make or the role that you occupy. And that’s fine, that makes sense. I would do a version of that, too, but it creates a problem.

And the problem is that those things are easily changeable. And if we anchor ourselves too deeply to the tasks we perform or the role that we occupy, then when those things change, and they will, then we will not just experience a change to our work; we’ll experience a change to our identity. And that’s what creates a total sense of disruption and panic. So, what’s a better thing to do?

Well, look, there’s a lot of talk, Simon Sinek had Start with Why, and then everybody talks about why, and I’ve always found that to be, honestly, a little bit of an abstract concept. And what I came to realize is that I think what we need is a mission statement in which every word that we select is carefully selected because it is not anchored to something that easily changes. What does that mean, abstract?

I used to identify as a newspaper reporter. Then I identified as a magazine editor. I stayed in jobs, newspaper jobs and magazine jobs that I disliked for way too long, becoming way too bitter. And the reason I did it was because I was a newspaper reporter or I was a magazine editor. The very idea of leaving those jobs and, therefore, giving up that identity was too challenging, and, therefore, I couldn’t bring myself to get out of bad situations.

Now, I have a sentence for myself, and that sentence is this, it’s seven words, “I tell stories in my own voice.” I tell stories. Story is a really important word for me. And the reason for it is because it is not anchored to something that is easily changeable. I don’t own Entrepreneur magazine, my boss can call me at any time, he has my phone number, and he can fire me. He could do it right now. And if my identity is “I am a magazine editor,” then I am one phone call away from losing my identity. That’s a terrible place to be.

But if I can think of myself as I tell stories and then in my own voice, that’s me setting the terms for how I want to operate, that’s me at this moment in my career. Well, now, when something changes, I have an understanding of the transferrable value that I have. I understand what I am, and I understand what I’m good at, and I know that it is not dependent upon one way that I used to do it. And when we have that understanding of ourselves, what we’re really doing is liberating ourselves from being stuck in one mode, in one job, in one task.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m intrigued by that notion, in your own voice. I’m thinking about Entrepreneur magazine, Fast Company, Men’s Health, each of them – well, you tell me, you’re the insider – has some guidelines, I imagine, associated with their voice, their tone, their style, their flavor. Are you able to tell stories within your own voice at each of these different outlets?

Jason Feifer
Well, I wouldn’t have said I tell stories in my own voice when I was at Men’s Health, and, really not even at Fast Company because I was at a different stage in my career at the time. The mission statement should evolve. When I was at Men’s Health, for example, I was in my late 20s. It was my first national magazine job. I worked at a couple local newspapers and a regional magazine before that.

Pete Mockaitis
And you had a shredded six pack.

Jason Feifer
And I had a shredded six pack, and I only ate vitamins. And I got there and I was, at the time, I was guided by this thing that I’m still, in many ways, guided by, which are these two questions, which is, “What do I need to learn? And have I learned it?” And so, I arrived at Men’s Health knowing what I needed to learn.

I needed to learn how to edit at a national magazine level, and, in particular, Men’s Health was really good at a kind of editing called packaging, which is lots of little bitsy items. It was very hard because you had to convey a lot of information in not a lot of space. And I wanted to get good at that. And a couple of years in, I had done it.

And so, when I asked my questions, “What do I need to learn? And have I learned it?” the answer is, “I knew what I needed to learn and I’ve learned it. It’s time to get the hell out of here.” But I’m not interested in what else someone tell me that I have to. Like, I need to go. And I did. I’ve never once in my career, and this is not career advice, you choose your own path.

But I’ve never once, like, gotten a job offer and then come back to my boss, and be like, “Oh, I got this job offer. Can you give me more money?” No, because when I’m out, I’m out. It’s time to go learn something else. That’s the thing that matters most to me. So, back then, I was writing in the Men’s Health voice, and the Men’s Health voice had a very, very particular style and a particular tone, and my voice was subsumed into that voice. But I also was younger and I didn’t have a stronger voice, and I didn’t have a stronger perspective, and I didn’t have something to tell people myself.

At Fast Company, it was roughly the same thing. I found a voice there but it’s very different from the voice I have now. I wasn’t as confident in it and I was still learning. I took that job because there was something else that I wanted to learn, which in that case was feature editing and feature writing and then eventually also video.

And so, I wasn’t really ready to speak in my own voice until much later in my career. Back then, had I gone through this exercise, and I hadn’t because I still just thought of myself as a magazine editor, I was anchored to my tasks, but back then I would’ve said, “My job is to be a good magazine maker.” The thing that I do is I take magazine jobs and I write really good stories and I edit really good stories. It was very limited because that’s how most people think.

Most people think that the thing that they are is the thing that they do. And it wasn’t until much, much later, after I’d gone through a lot of disruption in my own career, and I was trying to figure out how to feel a sense of ownership over myself, because when you’re just at the mercy of a company that you work for, you don’t have a lot of ownership over you.

But if you can spend some time thinking about what you are separate from that, and what value you have that can be brought to many different places, and people are lucky to have you, you start to feel more of a sense of ownership over yourself. I think that’s really important. And this exercise was a way in which I got there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, when you talked about the exercises and the reflections and the key questions, any other powerful practices that help serve up these insights?

Jason Feifer
Yeah, I’ll give you another exercise to run yourself through, which is “What do I have? What do I need? What’s available?” I like the word available. Let me tell you what that was. Okay, my first job was at The Gardner News. I don’t even know if it still exists, but at the time it was like 6,000 circulation daily newspaper in North Central Massachusetts. I was a general interest reporter, fresh out of college, $20,000 a year.

And I hated that job. I hated it. And the reason I hated it was because I had these large ambitions and they were not being met, and I couldn’t figure out the pathway to meet them. I was at this tiny little paper, I wanted to do bigger work, and I couldn’t articulate it, and I didn’t have access to it, and I was really frustrated.

And as a result, I was taking the wrong path, because I was blaming the people I was working with for, like, holding me back. They weren’t holding me back. I was holding me back. But eventually I did this thing that I wasn’t doing it so consciously back then. But now that I look back upon what I did and kind of come up with a little framework, I realized that what I did was that I asked myself these three questions, which is, “What do I have? What do I need? And what’s available?”

So, break it down for that experience. What do I have? I have a job, and it’s not a very satisfying job but it is a job doing a thing that I want to do, but what I want is to work in a much higher level. What do I need? Well, the problem, if we’re being realistic, is that I don’t have the experience to prove to anybody at a higher level that they should hire me. I have nothing. I have nothing except for this small credential, which is that I’ve worked at this tiny newspaper, which The New York Times is not going to take seriously if I go apply in The New York Times.

What do I need? What I need is I need more experience and I need to work with editors who I’m going to be able to learn from because right now, I’m at a tiny little newspaper, and my peers are not much more experienced than I am, and I’m not learning from them. So, I need access to talent, and I need to be able to prove myself at a higher level.

What’s available? Well, this is the hard one because you can’t answer it with a fantasy. It’s not “What’s available is, ‘Oh, why don’t I just apply for dream jobs.’” It’s not “What’s available is, ‘Oh, maybe I’ll just kick the can down the road and we’ll try to figure it out in a couple of years.’” No. What’s available right now? Like, literally, if you’re stuck, something is available to you right now. Something. What is it? Find the door where you’re looking at a wall.

And, in my case, in that particular situation, I thought, “Well, okay, nobody’s going to hire me, The New York Times is not hiring me, but there’s another way in.” And the way in, in my industry, this is freelancing, which is to say that a lot of what you read in newspapers and magazines are written by freelancers. They’re independent contractors who generally pitch a single story and an editor had said yes to it, and then they go out and they report to that single story.

I thought, “Why don’t I start doing that?” So, I quit. I quit that first job and I just started cold-pitching. And I was going to them instead of waiting for them to come to me.

And, as a result, after many, many, many, many months of pitching and getting rejected or ignored, I got a piece in The Washington Post, I got a piece in The Boston Globe, and I started to build this freelance career that, ultimately, allowed me to prove to other publications at a much faster clip, that I could work at their level. And that was what ultimately helped me build the career that I have. It’s what jumpstarted things.

And I look back on it now, and I say the reason I was able to do that was because I thought through that transition, because I didn’t stay at that job. What I needed to do was figure out what was available to me, realistically so, and then put myself in a position to go get it.

Pete Mockaitis
Jason, I love that notion associated with it’s kind of like you’re stuck, but then something is available, and it’s the freelancing. And I’m thinking about someone else, actually, she was on the podcast, Kristen Berndt, her dream was to do, like, baggage operations for airports, which is fun, like, that’s her thing, and yet she had no opening there. She just literally started a blog all about this.

Jason Feifer
I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, there’s one approach. You do some writing, either for the publications or on a blog or social media, LinkedIn posts, whatever, a podcast. You create some media such that it’s like, “Oh, look, this person is an expert and can do some stuff that’s good.” What are some other approaches if you feel kind of stuck? Like, what’s available is sort of hard to see from where you’re sitting.

Jason Feifer
And it started by asking, “What do I have and what don’t I have? And what don’t I even know I need?” I don’t know if you remember, but Donald Rumsfeld was the Secretary of Defense during the George W. Bush administration.

And, in the leadup to the Iraq invasion, a reporter asked him something, and he responded in this crazy, like, lyrical weird poetry thing that people made fun of him for, which was that he said, “There are known knowns. There are known unknowns. And there are unknown unknowns.” And people thought that was nonsense and it made for late-night joke fodder, but I was curious about it because I thought, “That’s not something that you just come up with on-the-fly. That has to be from something.”

And it is. It’s from a thing called The Johari Window, which is a self-assessment test, popularized in the 1970s, that then became very popular in military circles. It was actually a pretty useful way to evaluate a situation, “What do we know? What do we know that we don’t know? What don’t we know that we don’t know?”

And I realized that if we do a version of that for ourselves, we’d run ourselves through a little test like that when we’re feeling stuck, as you would ask, we get some interesting stuff. You can ask yourself, “What do I know that other people know?” All right, you’re at a job, you’re stuck, you’re feeling stuck, “What do I know that other people know?” “Well, here are the things you know.”

“What do I know that other people don’t know?” basically what is your competitive advantage. What are you really good at that maybe other people aren’t? “What do other people know that I don’t know?” Well, now, you can start to look around. You can see that people who maybe were your peers had taken radical interesting shifts, and they’re now doing interesting things. You can see that people are in fields that seem really intriguing to you, that you think you would be good at but you just don’t know that much about, and maybe it’s time to ask them.

And now the most terrifying question of all, of course, is, “What don’t I know that other people know? What am I not even thinking about? What am I not even looking at? What am I not even seeing?” And that should drive you to start to talk to people to explore what they have done, what path they took, what risks they took, and what were calculated risks that maybe seem crazy to you but actually seem pretty logical to them.

And what you’re doing, just to go back to Katy Milkman one more time, is you’re bridging what Katy told me, is called the false consensus effect. False consensus effect means that we tend to think that other people think exactly like us, and, therefore, we don’t think to use them as resources. But it turns out that people think pretty differently than us.

And when we ask them what they have done, and how they have done it, they will reveal to us all sorts of insights that we weren’t aware of. And those things can help us start to illuminate some of those unknown unknowns. And that will give you the path forward that you aren’t seeing right now.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Beautiful. Well, now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jason Feifer
Yeah. I was interviewing Ryan Reynolds for Entrepreneur magazine, and we were talking about the career shifts that he’s made. He’s gone from acting into business, there’s a number of them. And he told me, “To be good at something, you have to be willing to be bad.” And I love that because it’s true, because we often assume that if we’re not good at something at the beginning, it’s because maybe we’re not going to be good at it.

But what Ryan is saying is that the difference maker isn’t whether or not we’re good at something at the beginning, but rather whether or not we’re willing to tolerate being bad long enough to get to good. That’s the thing that weeds people out, it’s that most of us aren’t able to tolerate that discomfort. But the ones who are, are the ones who get there.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Jason Feifer
I, as a kid, read Dave Eggers’ A Heartbreaking Work Of Staggering Genius, which was a memoir. And the thing that mattered most to me about it was that it was written in a style and played with language in a way that I didn’t know was possible. And the things that I love consuming the most are the things that show me that the boundaries are not where I think they are. And that was, I think, the first time that I consumed something that really showed that to me.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something that helps you be more awesome at your job?

Jason Feifer
This is not going to be an exceptional tool, but I will tell you the thing that I live by, which is the native Reminders app on the MacBook and on my iPhone. They sync so that I can add something on the Reminders app on my phone, and there it is on my computer. And I look at that thing every 10 minutes, and every time somebody tells me something, it goes on there. And as I’m half falling asleep at night, I think, “Oh, crap, I didn’t tell that person that thing,” and it goes on that Reminders app, and I couldn’t leave home without it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Jason Feifer
Yeah. I do a lot of speaking, and so I travel around and I talk to groups. And the thing that people always come up to me after my talk and tell me is their mission statement, the thing that I shared with you earlier. I have a whole exercise for how to get there, and I walk people through it. It’s in the book.

And afterwards they come to me and they tell me their mission statement, or they email me afterwards and they tell me their mission statement. And I think the reason they’re doing that is because it feels like a breakthrough when you’ve done that for yourself, and they just have to share.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jason Feifer
I would point them to a couple places. Number one, my book is called Build for Tomorrow. I’d love for you to check it out. Also, you’re a listener of podcasts, I am a maker of podcasts. I have a podcast; it’s called Help Wanted.

I co-host it with Nicole Lapin, who’s a bestselling finance author. And what we do is we take people’s problems, often they’d call into the show, work problems, career problems, and we talk it through them in real time, or at least we take their questions, and then Nicole and I debate them and come to the right answer. And our goal is to help you build a career in a company you love, and you should check it out. It’s called Help Wanted.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jason Feifer
Yeah, I’m going to tell you another quote, and I want you to spend time with it. And the quote is this, this is something that Malcolm Gladwell told me. We were talking about how he decides what products or what projects, rather, to take on. And he told me that he really pushes against trying to think of himself too narrowly, and to think of his voice and style and the things that he does too narrowly. And the reason, he said, is because self-conceptions are powerfully limiting.

Self-conceptions are powerfully limiting. That’s basically my call to action to you, is to consider what your self-conception is, and how that is limiting you because, the thing is, that if we define ourselves too narrowly, we turn down all the amazing opportunities around us that don’t meet that narrow definition. But what happens if we loosen the grip, that I think is where growth happens.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jason, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun as you build for tomorrow.

Jason Feifer
Hey, thanks for having me.

Sep 12
0

799: The Unspoken Rules of High Performers and High Potentials with Gorick Ng

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

 

Gorick Ng lays out the unspoken rules and expectations of managers that explain why top performers get ahead.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The three questions everyone is asking about you 
  2. The A+ way to ask for help
  3. The mentality that keeps professionals from progressing 

About Gorick

Gorick Ng is the Wall Street Journal Bestselling Author of The Unspoken Rules: Secrets to Starting Your Career Off Right, a book published by Harvard Business Review Press. It is a guide to help professionals, especially those from underrepresented backgrounds, take control of their careers, based on 500+ interviews with professionals across geographies, industries, and job types. Gorick is a career adviser at Harvard College, specializing in coaching first-generation, low-income students. He has worked in management consulting at Boston Consulting Group (BCG), investment banking at Credit Suisse, and research with the Managing the Future of Work project at Harvard Business School. He has been featured in The Today Show, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, BuzzFeed, New York Post, Fast Company, and CNBC. He was named by Thinkers50 as one of 30 thinkers to watch in 2022. Gorick, a first-generation college student, is a graduate of Harvard College and Harvard Business School.

 Resources Mentioned

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Gorick Ng Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Gorick, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Gorick Ng
Thanks so much for having me, Pete. Excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m excited to chat with you and hear some insights from your book The Unspoken Rules: Secrets to Starting Your Career Off Right, but I think we also need to hear a little about your other career as a magician.

Gorick Ng
Well, I have the perfect storm of being awkward, shy, and introverted. And I didn’t realize it at the time, but when I was in elementary and middle school, I picked up magic tricks after seeing David Copperfield levitate on stage on TV.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I watched that too and was sad that I couldn’t fly. My mom had to break the news to me, like, “No, it’s just an illusion. It’s not actually flying.”

Gorick Ng
I had to temper my expectations after realizing that magic tricks start off with playing cards and coins, not necessarily levitating in front of a big audience. So, it took some getting used to but I ended up spending summers upon summers at the local magic shop where I ended up interacting with strangers and often folks who were double my age, triple my age sometimes, and, in retrospect, it was the best thing that could’ve happened to me because I got out of my shell.

I forced myself in a way that I actually wanted to force myself, to put myself out there, talk to strangers, and be vulnerable. I was deathly afraid of having folks see behind the tricks and know the secret. So, if you’re talking about putting yourself out there in front of an audience and having the imposter syndrome, I guess magicians face it all the time. I certainly did.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you’re quite literally an imposter because you’re not actually doing the things that…

Gorick Ng
Exactly right.

Pete Mockaitis
…you’re purporting to do. Well, tell me, was there a particular crowd favorite trick or illusion? I’m thinking of Gob from “Arrested Development” now. Was there a particular crowd-pleasing bit that you did frequently?

Gorick Ng
I would take a dollar bill and turn it into a 10-dollar bill.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool.

Gorick Ng
And it’s actually one that my mom still tells people about when she pulls aside family members. She’ll say, “Well, what about that trick you showed us ten years ago?” and I thought to myself, “Oh, no, mom, let’s talk about this some other time.”

Pete Mockaitis
Are you still able to pull it off?

Gorick Ng
I’m a little rusty, I have to say. It’s been a while since I’ve picked it up but I still actually have a big cabinet full of equipment at home that I just haven’t been able to get myself to sell.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear that. Okay. Well, now let’s talk about increasing the value you can offer an employer or a business or nonprofit, etc. You have written a book, The Unspoken Rules: Secrets to Starting Your Career Off Right and so I’m excited to get into some of those rules which I imagine will not be applicable only to people fresh in their careers but these rules probably apply, is it fair to say, to most professionals?

Gorick Ng
Definitely. Actually, it was a big, not debate, not argument, more of just a longstanding discussion between me and my publisher Harvard Business Review around what the subtitle of the book should even be. We had a Google Doc going, containing 20, 30, maybe 40, 50 different potential subtitles, one of which is “How to be a High Performer and High Potential at Work.” It’s a bit of a mouthful but we decided to hone in on the early-career audience.

But what I’ve realized since engaging with companies large and small, and becoming a consultant speaker at companies like GE, IBM, etc. is that what is a must for some is good for all. So, my audience now, yes, it consists of early-career professionals, but those who find my message to resonate most are actually in their mid-careers and above.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Perfect. Well, lay it on us, to start, is there a particularly surprising, fascinating, counterintuitive discovery you made while doing all these interviews to put together this book?

Gorick Ng
The biggest takeaway for me is actually a framework that I call the 3Cs, which stand for competence, commitment, and compatibility. And the idea is the minute you show up, whether it’s at a coffee chat, a client meeting, a one-on-one with your manager, etc., the people around you are sizing you up, and they’re asking themselves three questions.

Question one is, “Can you do this job well?” which is the question of, “Are you competent?” Question two is, “Are you excited to be here and to grow with us?” and that’s the question of “Are you committed?” And the third question, the final one, is, “Do we get along?” which is the question of “Are we compatible?” So, “Are you competent?” “Are you committed?” and “Are we compatible?” the 3Cs.

Your job, and frankly all of our jobs, and this includes the CEO, is to convince the people around us to answer yes to all three questions all the time. Demonstrate these 3Cs and you’ll build trust, you’ll unlock opportunity, and you’ll get closer to reaching your career goals.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, that makes sense in terms of segmenting that into three handy categories. So, how do we go about demonstrating these things?

Gorick Ng
Well, the first thing is to look left, look right, and to understand the unspoken expectations around how people demonstrate these 3Cs, and it depends on the workplace. So, I’ll give you a few examples here. When it comes to demonstrating competence, for example, what I realized is there’s actually a certain song and dance that you’re expected to do in many workplaces when you have a question.

So, the C+ plus way of approaching an ambiguous situation is to, well, do what I did, which is to put my head down, put some extra effort into it, and just hope it’ll work itself out and not ask questions because I’m worried about coming across as incompetent or lazy. The B+ approach is to go to your manager or a coworker and to say, “I’m stuck. What do I do next?” which is an open-ended question.

An A+ approach is to say, “Pete, I’m struggling with this. I tried looking here and here. I couldn’t quite find the answer, so I approached my colleague Sally, and we couldn’t quite sort it out either. Shall I be taking approach A, approach B, or approach C? I’m leaning towards approach B but let me know if I’m not thinking about this the right way.”

So, what are you doing? You’re actually demonstrating a few unspoken rules, one of which is to bundle and escalate, so to do your own homework before approaching others. The next is to give others something to react to. So, instead of opening the conversation with a big broad question, you’re giving people options.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that a lot. And I remember, geez, I might’ve been in like fifth grade when I was a really judgmental fifth-grader. You’re bringing me back to my youth, Gorick, this conversation. And I remember, sometimes when they would ask the teacher for help, they just say, “I don’t get it,” and I can tell the teachers were frustrated by that too, even though teachers are often paragons of patience and they’re accustomed to having to go through something multiple times.

And I remember thinking, “You know, it just doesn’t seem like the best way to ask for help.” It feels a little bit like, I don’t know if I would use these words at the time, but almost like an abdication of responsibility. Like, “You, you fix this because it’s not working for me,” as opposed to getting a little bit more specific. It’s like, “I understand that…” I don’t even know what we’re learning in fifth grade. Igneous, metamorphic, and sedimentary rocks maybe, that’s what comes to mind.

“But what really is the difference between sedimentary and igneous?” the geologists are appalled right now, and I’m saying, “Because it would seem that they’re almost the same in that A, B, and C,” and say, ahh, that gives you a whole lot more direction, like, “Oh, yes, I can see where you’re coming from there, and I’m better able to help you given that context. And here’s the precise prescription for what your knowledge needs to be augmented with,” as opposed to, “Well, I guess I’ll just maybe say everything I said before again.”

Gorick Ng
Hundred percent. And it brings me back to a conversation that my manager had with me early on in my career. This was after I did exactly the C+ approach, which was put my head down and hide away for weeks and not show my face at all, only to come back and do the wrong work. My manager said, and I mean for those listening who…well, everyone has had that experience of going from school to work, and realizing that what we learned in school doesn’t exactly align with what we’re expected to know in the workplace.

And so, it’s part of this right of passage, my manager pulled me aside, actually slammed the conference room door behind him…

Pete Mockaitis
Dramatic.

Gorick Ng
…and said, “Look, we hired you to think. If we just hired you to blindly follow a set of instructions, your job could’ve been automated by now. There’s a reason why we hired a human being, a living breathing human being with a brain. It’s because you can solve problems. It’s because you can think critically, so think.”

It was a scary conversation. I’m chuckling at that in retrospect but it really did make a lot of sense, and it reminded me of this side of our brain that just gets turned off by school because, in school, we just have been conditioned to think that textbook has all the answers, there’s a right or wrong to everything, that professor knows best, and that just isn’t the case in the workplace where there’s very rarely a right or wrong answer. More often, there’s just a difference in values and perspectives.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. Cool. All right. Well, that’s a great approach right there from the get-go in terms of the A+ way of asking for help, bundle and escalate, make it clear. You tried some things, you have some options in mind, as opposed to, “I don’t get it. Fix this,” or toil away and hope that it hits the right thing. That’s high risk because it may very well not be the right thing. So, lay it on us some more unspoken rules and best practices for following them well.

Gorick Ng
A big one is to understand what matters to those who matter. So, put yourself in the shoes of the higher-ups in your team, in your department, in your organization, and ask yourself, “What goals are they trying to reach? And what pains are they trying to alleviate? What’s causing them stress? What’s wasting them time?” And look left, look right, find a swim lane. So, find something that hasn’t been done before, and occupy that swim lane because the more you understand what matters to those who matter, the more you’ll do work that matters. And the more that you do work that matters, the more you will matter.

And I have a story here, if I may, of someone who unexpectedly did this. And this is actually an individual who’s hired into a staffing company as an administrative assistant. So, the staffing company has a business model where they would place nurses into hospital jobs, and this individual was hired on a six-month contract, and her job was to simply process paperwork. And just like the dozens of people who had come before her, she would work for six months and she’d be off to something else.

She took a very different approach, and just approached her job with a different mindset, which was, “Wait a second. I didn’t just get hired to process paperwork. I got hired to help this company achieve its goals.” So, one day, after doing her work fully, accurately, and promptly, which is really the basis of competence and to show that you’re reliable, she found herself overhearing a conversation between some higher-ups, and they were complaining about how they couldn’t find enough nurses to place into these hospital jobs, at which point she thought, “Well, duh.”

This is a story from the Philippines, by the way, “The company I’m working at is relying on the telephone, on antiquated websites to hire people, when all of my friends are relying on social media to find their next jobs.” And so, she opened up her smartphone, went on to a few of these Facebook pages, and she discovered that actually many of her company’s competitors were quietly lurking in these groups, posting job opportunities, getting the word out.

And she then approached her managers and said, “Hey, maybe this is something you’ve already thought about, but I couldn’t help but notice that, actually, a lot of my friends who were coming out of nursing school are actually finding about job opportunities on social media, something that it doesn’t seem like we’re trying right now. Is this something we’ve considered?”

At which point, her manager thought, “No, this didn’t even occur to us at all. Well, why don’t you go ahead and lurk a little bit.” Fast-forward several months, and she ended up creating a social media presence for her company, ended up providing market intelligence to senior leaders, multiple layers up in the organization.

And so, one day, her manager’s manager came up to her, and said, “I know your contract is due to end. I hope you’re not going anywhere because we want you to lead marketing for our company.” And, just like that, she ended up becoming the youngest manager in her company, leading a division that hadn’t even existed before. And that was all from just seeing her job as more than just a set of tasks but rather as a set of goals to be achieved for the broader team.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. And it’s so easy to let those opportunities just float away. Like, you overhear a conversation, and you’re like, “Not my problem.” You just move along, or you just say, “Duh,” and you don’t say anything, or you feel kind of nervous, it’s like, “You know, I got an idea here but I don’t know if it’s my place to say. I’m just an administrative assistant. This is a temporary contract. I’m sure they probably thought of it before.” And you can just talk yourself out of it in seconds instead of pursuing an opportunity which can be game-changing.

Gorick Ng
Oh, yeah. It’s like we’re all walking down an art gallery on a daily basis in our lives, and we’re looking at the same painting but coming to different conclusions around what this painting depicts. So, someone else in this very same situation might look at the scenario that this individual was in, and think, “Yeah, this is someone else’s problem. I’m just an administrative assistant,” to your point. But even the slightest tweak in how we see ourselves and how we fit into the big picture can make a big difference.

So, one of the things that I observe a lot, and I’m guilty of this, is I still have to remind myself to not use the word just, “So, I’m just a planning analyst” which is one way of looking at your job. But another way is to think, “Yeah, sure, I’m a planning analyst but my job is really to get stuff to the right place at the right time. And as a result of my broader mandate, I understand market demand at my company better than anybody.”

Or, if you’re working in manufacturing, for example, “I’m just a machine operator,” versus, “I create the product that makes my company’s products the best. And as a result of having this broader mandate, I know what it takes to be more lean, to be less wasteful, and to be more efficient better than anybody, including the CEO because I’m operating this machine on a daily basis.”

Or, finally, “I’m just a quality manager,” versus, “I ensure that our company’s world-class standards are upheld. And as a result of this broader mandate, I know how to identify when something is wrong and how to fix these problems better than anybody, and this, again, includes the CEO because they’re not looking at these problems on a day-to-day basis. They’re not in these spreadsheets day in, day out. I know more about this topic than anybody, and there is something that is trapped inside of my head that deserves the light of day. I’m just not giving myself credit for what I know and what could be useful.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really powerful, that notion of “I know this better than anybody” is true of perhaps the majority of workers. Like, there is a domain of knowledge that, because you’ve spent more time on it than anybody else, you’re closer to it, day after day, have thought about it than anybody else. And that creates power and opportunity which is really cool.

Gorick Ng
And it creates something that leaders want, which is an ownership mindset. I’ve spoken to over 500 professionals across geographies, industries, and job types to write this book, and the one word that I hear time and time again from leaders is, “I wish that my employees could be owners, could think like an owner, to have this ownership mindset.”

And everyone is capable of doing this. Of course, it’s a matter of self-help so it’s a matter of reframing the way that we exist in the world, but it’s also about all of us needing to help. So, we need leaders and managers to create spaces where people are rewarded for going above and beyond but it can be super simple.

So, one example that I had heard about but that, unfortunately, didn’t make it into the book because I was 40,000 words over the word limit, is of a customer service representative who worked at a quick service restaurant. So, this person was equivalent to the person who scoops up the guacamole in that assembly line.

Pete Mockaitis
Hmm, tasty.

Gorick Ng
Indeed. And this individual looked around the store and noticed that it was total mayhem outside because customers didn’t know where to line up. And so, he approached his manager and said, “Hey, maybe you’ve already thought about this but I couldn’t just help but notice that when people walk into the store, they don’t know if they’re supposed to be lining up on the left-hand side or the right-hand side, and so people are bumping into each other and getting confused and frustrated that they can’t seem to find the beginning of the line.”

“Have we thought about maybe hanging up a sign that says, ‘Start here. Pay here,’ and maybe just drawing some lines on the floor so that people know where to go?” And, just like that, the entire operations of this store ended up being improved, and, of course, this person ended up being rewarded as a result as well.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And you’ve used this phrase a couple times, and it’s really growing on me “Maybe you’ve already thought about this,” which says…it gives you sort of blanket absolution for any potential perception of presumption. That’s a lot of words. But you cover yourself. It’s not like, “I’m not saying you’re an idiot. I noticed this and you may have thought about it, too, and I’m just kind of curious what your thoughts here.” So, I like that.

Gorick Ng
I appreciate you picking that up because it comes back to the 3Cs framework, where it’s not a binary. It’s not a matter of “Are you competent?” versus “Are you not?” It’s actually a spectrum where it’s possible to overshoot and it’s possible to undershoot. So, overshoot this zone of competence and you come across, potentially, as a know-it-all.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like, “I’ve taken the liberty of getting an architectural blueprint set right up for precisely the most optimized flow.” Yeah, you’re right. In a way, it’s like, “Okay, that’s super proactive and ambitious but I’m a little weirded out and think you probably should’ve consulted me before, I don’t know, spending company money on an architect,” for example.

Gorick Ng
That’s exactly right. And one of the phrases I use a lot in my sessions is the importance of stepping up without overstepping. And that really speaks to just how delicate this balance is between showing just the right dose of competence, commitment, and compatibility without overshooting the mark and coming across as threatening or wanting to make others look bad.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, while we’re talking about specific words, and phrases, and verbiage, any other gems you’d like to share?

Gorick Ng
Well, this one will be likely familiar to those especially in the management position or in an HR function, which is the nine-box matrix. And it’s nine boxes, along the bottom are the labels low performance, medium performance, high performance. And along the edge is low potential, medium potential, high potential.

Now, folks are thinking, “Well, that’s not an unspoken rule. That’s a performance-management framework.” What I didn’t appreciate until I started doing these interviews is that it’s actually not common sense that doing your job is only part of your job. The rest is about showing that you can be trusted with more important responsibilities.

So, what does it mean to show high performance? Well, you’re reliable, you’re doing what you say you will do, you are being responsive, you are showing detail orientation, all of these basics. But what people don’t appreciate is that it’s not enough to simply put your head down, do the hard work, and hope that someone will give you credit for your hard work. You also need to show that you have potential.

So, you need to show that you know why you’re doing what you’re doing, you have to have an answer and a point of view, you have to address issues ideally before they come up, you have to offer ways to make things better, and you have to be seen and heard by leadership. And so, these are the unspoken rules of getting promoted. It’s just that how we’re evaluating employees and how employees think they’re being evaluated are often night and day.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. That’s good. Well, let’s dig into committed, how you show it. And, first, I just want to…we’re talking about commitment, and I’ve just recently been reading a number of articles about quiet quitting, as it’s called, and I guess there’s multiple interpretations or definitions of this. It’s sort of like you haven’t quit but you’re sort of coasting and you’re going to do the bare minimum, and you’ve sort of quit in your heart, if you will.

And so, that’s creating a buzz in some conversations. But I’d love it if we could address the mindset or the attitude in terms of, “Well, okay, yeah, an ownership mindset would be great but I’m not an owner. I don’t have equity or stock options or performance compensation of any kind. So, yeah, I bet you’d like it if I had an ownership mindset but I don’t because I’m, in fact, not an owner, and that even seems potentially unfair for me to go above and beyond when the rewards are not in play.” I just want to let you respond to that kind of attitude or mindset.

Gorick Ng
Well, this is a good example of where leaders and employees are really talking past each other. And, actually, if I may return to the 3Cs framework because the way that we often, at least when I approach the workplace, I thought that it was all about just doing my job. And, actually, I have a quote from someone, an accountant who was new to corporate America and who thought that, “Well, is it my job just a simple matter of showing up, doing my work, and then going home? That’s what a job is, right?”

And I thought to myself, “Well, yeah.” If I think about my single mother who worked in a sewing machine factory, that was her job. You show up, you do your work, you put your head down, and you leave.” But in this increasingly knowledge-based economy in which we live, it’s hard to evaluate your outputs on a daily basis. So, you can’t just walk up to someone and see how many garments they sewed and the quality of the zipper they sewed onto that garment.

So, in the absence of, clearly, discernible outputs, we start relying on inputs. We rely on, “Well, how responsive are you in emails? How confident are you coming across in conversations? How much are you coming to the table with solutions rather than just problems? How much are you showing excitement?” I have a story of someone who worked in a cinema who thought that his job was simply to, well, collect change and give tickets to people. But he was labeled as “not a team player” because, during his breaks, he wasn’t socializing with his colleagues, and that was, in retrospect, dinging this individual’s commitment and compatibility.

And so, while he wanted to make it to be a general manager, folks didn’t see his leadership material. So, I want to come back to this idea of competence and commitment because when I speak to leaders, they care about competence and commitment. Whereas, when I speak to employees, the misnomer is that, “Well, it’s all just about competence. If I’m just doing my work, why am I not getting rewarded?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, there’s a mismatch, folks talking past each other. Understood. So, in a way, there’s simply a misunderstanding on the part of the employee, that commitment is necessary. Whereas, leadership says, “Well, of course, that’s a given to us. We recognize it.” I’m thinking about more about the employees’ attitude or perspective or mindset that, “That’s just not fair or just or right or appropriate.”

Gorick Ng
Yeah, that’s a big one, and this is where we move from self-help to all of us needing to help. So, it’s one thing to lay bare these unspoken rules. It’s another to make sure that you have the structures and incentives in place to make sure that people are actually motivated to perform at this higher level. And so, when it comes to compensation, yeah, it’s hard to ask your employees to go above and beyond if you’re paying below market rates.

It’s hard to ask your sales and marketing team to make more money if all that money is going to the folks high up and they don’t see a penny of it. So, the fairness thing, I think we need to be talking more about because it’s one thing, it’s necessary but not sufficient to have expectations. You also need to make sure that folks feel excited, folks feel supported, and folks feel valued. Those are really the three essential ingredients to motivating your team versus just having a conversation with them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, attitude point addressed. Now, share with us, how do we demonstrate that we’re committed?

Gorick Ng
Well, I spoke to the importance, for example, of being responsive. And, here, we rub up against also an area where folks may talk past each other, which is some organizations have this always-on culture, or this hidden expectation that if someone higher-up emails you, no matter what time of day it is, that you’d be jumping at that email and responding right away.

And if you speak to leaders, they’ll say, “Well, yeah, of course. If I asked for something, I expect you to be there.” And then if you talked to employees, they’ll say, “Well, I’m not getting paid at this hour. And just because you want to empty your inbox at 11:00 p.m. doesn’t mean that I want to be up at 11:00 p.m. answering your emails.”

So, here, there is the self-help piece and there’s also the all-of-us-need-to-help piece. So, I interviewed, for example, a superintendent at a school district who had this habit of emptying her inbox on Saturday evenings. And from her perspective, it was, “Well, I’m just trying to empty my inbox, trying to get ahead of the following week,” but in doing so, she had established the unspoken rule in her team that everyone needs to be up at that hour.

So, my message to leaders is to be mindful of your intent which I assume is positive, but, moreover, to be mindful of your impact because you know that your intent is positive but how your actions may be perceived on the other side may not be so positive, in the case of the superintendent.

When it comes to employees, it’s important, and here we come back to this idea of quiet quitting, for example, which is drawing boundaries, to use a synonym here. Often, when I speak to leaders, and why they have these requests and why they tend to micromanage, it’s not because anyone wakes up in the morning, thinking, “How can I be the worst micromanager that has walked the face of the earth?” It’s that they’re nervous. It’s that they’re anxious.

And so, as an employee, you can get ahead of this commitment C if you apply the unspoken rule of why, what, how, by when; where, whenever you’re delegated a task, it’s important to be in alignment with your manager about, “Why is this being asked of me? What’s the broader purpose behind this work? What do I need to do? What’s the deliverable exactly? Is this an email? Is this a presentation? Is this a phone call? How am I supposed to do this? So, am I supposed to find it with my friends? Am I supposed to go on Google? Am I supposed to look at our internal knowledge management system?’

And, moreover, and this is the real one, is by when. So, if my manager asks me to do something by, let’s say…well, actually, let me be clear. Most managers will just say, “Can you please look into this?” So, they won’t even give you a deadline, even though in the back of their heads, they have a deadline of, “Well, I want you to get this done by Friday.”

So, if you don’t ask and your manager doesn’t tell you, you’re going to be on completely different pages about this deadline. So, the first step is to ask, “Hey, when do you need this?” But there’s also a further unspoken rule here, which is that whenever there’s a deadline in the workplace, there’s also an unspoken earlier deadline.

So, even though this is due on Friday, maybe before I hand this deliverable to you, Pete, I need to talk to Jenny, and maybe Jenny is out on Thursday, so I actually have to talk to her on Wednesday. And before I can speak to her, I need to speak to three other people who I can only talk to on Monday. So, the deadline isn’t actually next Friday, it’s this afternoon.

And so, aligning on this ahead of time when you’re delegated an assignment can go a long way in demonstrating that you’re committed and, at the same time, draw those boundaries because you’ve already had this conversation with your manager about, “Hey, I promised to get back to you by this time. It’s not yet that time,” of course you’re not saying this but you’ve gone on to the same page that, “Hey, I will get back to you, so don’t be so nervous, don’t be so anxious about what’s really going on right now.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I think those conversations are so necessary. When you mentioned unspoken rule or expectation of the superintendent doing the Saturday night email, I think that’s one of the most powerful conversations that managers and teams can have, is, “What are our expectations associated with email or Slack messaging, etc.?” because I’ve facilitated workshops where there are just incredible lightbulbs going off, like, “Oh, my gosh, so you don’t need this right away? Like, generally, I can reply within 24 hours, and that’s fine? Wow!”

And then there’s another ball of wax associated with multitasking, switch-tasking, and the horrors it does to our attention and deep work and focus zone, flow stuff. So, that’s a whole another ball of wax. But it can be so transformational when you clear those up, and say, “Oh,” or made you learn, “Actually, yes, I do expect that,” like, “Oh, glad that I know that. I can tell you what I can and cannot do with regard to that.” When you said boundaries, how do you recommend you have those conversations?

Gorick Ng
Well, it’s to approach this as, “How can we best work together?” versus “These are all the things that I demand from you.” And this is a two-way street, this is a conversation that managers can have with their teams, and that team members can have with their managers. So, when you’re meeting your manager for the first time, my advice is to ask, “Hey, what are your biggest goals and priorities over the next week, month, quarter, year? What are the things that you’d like me to be focusing on? What are the top priorities, the have-to-dos versus the nice-to-dos?”

“And how would you like to communicate, day to day, week to week? Would you like me to send you a summary email at the end of every week? Or, would you like me to try and tack on maybe a two-minute conversation after our weekly standups?” To your point, so much of this is about making the unspoken spoken. It’s about reminding ourselves that we can’t read the other person’s mind, and so just because we don’t talk about expectations, doesn’t mean that there aren’t expectations.

And we have a choice of either guessing and probably guessing incorrectly, and having that conversation upfront. The style by which you ask is really important. It’s a matter of, “Hey, how can we best work together? How can I save you time and stress?” versus “These are all the things that I expect of you.”

Pete Mockaitis
Right, or that I don’t do.

Gorick Ng
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
“I don’t do dishes. I don’t do toilet.” Okay. And so, how about compatibility. How do we demonstrate that?

Gorick Ng
This is the toughest one because bias and discrimination are real. And so, whether we’re talking about age, gender, sex, sexual orientation, nationality, vocal pitch, introversion, extroversion, access to transportation if we’re going to a social event after work, internet connectivity, accent.

So, it’s not a level playing field when it comes to the sea of compatibility where some of us, just by who we are and the backgrounds we come from, might show up in an organization and be able to speak like and have the same conversations as those of our coworkers. Versus, someone else who might feel like an outsider and who has to work a lot harder to demonstrate that compatibility.

Let me give you an example of just how tricky and sometimes uncomfortable this sea of compatibility can be with a story that I included in the book of this individual who joined a team that had this ritual of going on pedal bar outings.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Gorick Ng
Now, I don’t know if you’re familiar with pedal bars.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Well, I live near Nashville now. There’s always the Bachelorettes on the strip. They’re going to the bars and they’re pedal…how do I say the word again? Pedal?

Gorick Ng
I think it’s a pedal bar. I have never done it myself.

Pete Mockaitis
P-E-D-A-L. Pedal bar, yes. So, they’re all pedaling on this thing. It’s just like “That cannot be safe.” That’s what I think whenever I see them, it’s like, “You all must have great insurance because I don’t know about this.”

Gorick Ng
Right. Yes. So, this individual found himself in a team where everyone liked going on pedal bar outings while wearing tie dye, actually. So, it’s a tie dye T-shirt pedal bar outing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Gorick Ng
And this individual thought, “I don’t like drinking. This whole pedal bar tie dye business, I don’t want to have anything to do with it.” And so, he didn’t end up showing up at these outings. So, he politely declined every occasion, and then got to a point where he stopped getting invited altogether because his coworkers thought, “Ah, maybe you’re just not interested in hanging out with us.”

Fast-forward to the performance evaluation process, and he, like the individual I interviewed who was seen as not a team player at the cinema, well, this person also got the same feedback, which is that “You’re doing great in your job but you’re just not a team player.” At which point, he thought, “Okay, what you’re really asking me to do is to join you on these outings,” and that’s what he ended up doing.

I’m not saying conform, and we’ll come back to this, but he ended up going on these outings. And, fast-forward to the next review cycle, and his review shot up, and he ended up continuing to put himself out there, get to know his team members, and he ended up getting promoted actually in record time, multiple times, actually, in this company.

Now, we can hear this story and come to multiple conclusions. The first conclusion is, well, conform if you want to “fit in” which is one interpretation. The other interpretation is to do some self-reflection around what you hold sacred, what you’re willing to negotiate, and what you’re indifferent about. And this is a big thing that I uncovered in my research, which is different people are going to have different zones of tolerance when it comes to what they’re willing to give up for their jobs and, specifically, for the purposes of demonstrating compatibility.

So, some people will have, for example, a nontraditional name, at least within a particular context. And some people in that situation will say, “Yeah, give me a nickname. Go ahead.” Others will say, “No, I prefer that you call me by my real name, and I would prefer that you learn how to pronounce it as well.” Others will say, “You know, I’m willing to let go of my entire wardrobe and wear the slacks that you all wear and the blue and white dress shorts from a certain brand that you all wear and the loafers that you all wear.”

Others will say, “You know, I’m willing to conform to a certain degree, so to mesh with maybe your level of business casual but I’m going to show my own flare. I might show off my usual hair or I might show off jewelry that I would like to.” And no one can tell you what is the right answer. It’s really about who you are and what you value, and whether this is even an organization that you want to bend to.

And this also speaks to something else about these so-called unspoken rules, which is when you’re faced with an unspoken rule, you have three options as well. You can either follow the rules, you can either reject the rules, or you can bend the rules. So, in this case, in this particular individual’s situation, he ended up conforming to start getting promoted to management but, in the end, ended up using his managerial and leadership platform to make sure that folks coming into the organization after him didn’t have to conform in the way that he did.

So, he ended up leading diversity and inclusion initiatives, he ended up creating managerial training programs that would instill a different style of leadership in the organization, and that’s what this individual did. Not to say that we should all do it in this way, but this is one example of many of just how tricky this compatibility topic can be.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that notion of the three choices, and I actually got this question just yesterday. I was speaking at the IMF, and someone said, “What do you do if you feel like you can’t bring your full self to work because there’s a homogenous culture?” I don’t know if this person was referring to the International Monetary Fund workplace in particular or asking for a friend or whatever. So, not to put that on anyone.

And I thought that that’s a fine question, and it really made me think about, “Well, how are you defining what constitutes bringing your full self to work?” And I think you laid that up nicely in terms of, “Do you care about the loafers or the blue and white dress shirts or the pedal bar, or do you not?” And so, you might have a strong view, you might not, and you got your three options associated with reject the rules, conform to the rules, bend the rules.

And I think maybe a pre-step, if you will, the prequel to that three-part choice, is just confirming that’s really a rule because I think, for example, if it’s like we all happen to wear…I’m wearing jeans and a polo right now as we’re chatting. And so, if I was in a workplace where there are four other people wearing jeans and polos, and then a new person shows up, they might get the memo, “Oh, I’m supposed to wear jeans and polo. Like, that’s what we do here.”

And, yet, if you are engaging in those conversations openly, honestly, directly, proactively, you can mention, “Hey, you’re actually totally free to wear whatever you want. If you want to wear a death metal band T-shirt, that is completely fine here. We just all happen to coincidentally like jeans and polos, yeah.”

Gorick Ng
This is so important a conversation to have, and it has to start from the managerial leadership side. Because if we put ourselves in the shoes of, for example, the individual I interviewed, this is the typical experience of a new hire, which is you get hired, you get radio silence, you have no idea what’s expected of you on your first day, sometimes you don’t even know who your manager is, let alone where you’re supposed to show up and what you’re supposed to know.

You show up, you don’t know a soul. You go to a meeting, everyone’s talking over you or not even acknowledging that you’re the newcomer. You have questions but no one is there to help you out. You try to speak up but you have that imposter syndrome. You try again and folks don’t even acknowledge that you exist. You receive an assignment but you don’t know what to do. You have questions and don’t have anyone to go to. And then, all of a sudden, fast-forward to your performance evaluation, and you’re called an underperformer, not a team player, apathetic, not leadership material.

Now, if we just put ourselves in the shoes of the typical experience of an employee, there are just a lot of really basic things that leaders and managers can do to create a more welcoming environment. And it begins with what you just said, which is “What are the things that really matter in this job? And what are the things that we actually don’t really care about?”

But someone from the outside, if an alien from outer space were to swoop into our organization, this alien might interpret our organization as one where everyone has to be up at all hours, everyone has to wear jeans and polos, everyone has to talk a certain way, everyone has to talk about a certain set of sports and a certain set of teams in that sport, and that may not necessarily be the case.

So, being proactive about this conversation is important because that new hire, who is already feeling uncomfortable, is probably not in a position to spark this conversation themselves. You have to be the one to bring it up.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s great stuff, Gorick. Thank you. Any final thoughts before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Gorick Ng
As I take a step back from my research, my biggest aha moment is twofold. One, it’s that high performers and high potentials are developed, not born. And the second is that, when it comes to onboarding your employees, developing your employees, engaging your employees, and promoting your employees, all of that begins with speaking the unspoken rules.

These unspoken ways that we do things in this organization, that we might assume to be common sense but that’s often not common sense. And this is often a function of privilege, of where we grew up, of our work experience, of the communities in which we live. And deconstructing what those unspoken rules are for all can level the playing field for all of your employees.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now, could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Gorick Ng
I wish this were my quote. It’s, unfortunately, not mine but it’s still my favorite, and it’s, “The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second-best time is now.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Gorick Ng
I’m a big fan of Erin Meyer’s work on The Culture Map. So, she maps out different working cultures across countries around the world, and then maps them out across eight scales. It helped me gain a better appreciation for this notion of cultural differences and how what may be common sense in one culture, may actually be at odds with how another culture does its work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Gorick Ng
My favorite book is Hope for the Flowers by Trina Paulus. It’s actually a picture book on a caterpillar who discovers his true purpose in life. And it turns out that it’s not what everyone else is pursuing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool?

Gorick Ng
I love Instapaper. It’s a tool that allows me to save articles for offline reading, and I actually have Siri read those articles to me when I’m on runs.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Gorick Ng
I can’t say this is a habit yet but I’m definitely trying harder to block off time for the important work so that the mindset of just one more email doesn’t turn into an entire day of emails.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Gorick Ng
The takeaway that folks repeat back to me most often is the idea that it’s not enough to simply put your head down, do the hard work, and let your hard work speak for itself. You need to be seen, you need to be heard in order to be remembered. And you need to be remembered in order for you to be promoted.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Gorick Ng
Best place to contact me is at my website, which is Gorick.com, that’s G-O-R-I-C-K.com. I’m also on the various social media networks, so feel free to connect with me.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Gorick Ng
My call to action is to leaders, and it’s to identify one person on your team who may come across as a low-performer, someone who may appear to be apathetic or just not get it, and ask yourself, “What might they not get that I consider to be common sense?” and then reach out to them, and ask, “Hey, how are you doing?” and listen. You might be surprised by what they tell you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Gorick, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and success in sharing and following well the unspoken rules. Keep on rocking.

Gorick Ng
Thanks so much, Pete. Appreciate your time.