975: Elevating Leadership through Radical Humility with Urs Koenig

Pete Mockaitis
Urs, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Urs Koenig
Thanks, Pete, for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, me too. Me too. I was a Model United Nations student in high school and college. So basically, we’re the same.

Urs Koenig
So, how’s that, Pete? Tell me more about that.

Pete Mockaitis
No, no, there’s no danger zones. We just sort of dressed up in Western business attire, as we called it, and argued over our resolutions and who was going to put their hands on the keyboard and go to the printer. But I want to hear you share with us a riveting tale from your work as a UN peacekeeper that kind of shaped some of your thinking on leadership?

Urs Koenig
Well, two things, actually. I went back to the military after having been out for 22 years. And so, went back to serve as a peacekeeper, left the business, left my kids to volunteer to make a difference. On the second day of reporting to my peacekeeping command, I dropped my flak jacket. And the sergeant, 25 years my junior and well below my rank, is chewing me out for dropping my flak jacket. And I’m here to be of service to make a difference, and this young punk is chewing me out.

So, it takes all the…and that’s the title of my book, all the humility I possibly can master, not to make a snarky comment, but I picked up the vest and I say nothing at all. But it was one of the first lessons in humility I would have to learn over the next nine months as a peacekeeper. Just a small one, but there were plenty more later on.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m curious, Urs, did that gesture of humility have some positive impact on that relationship or did you just never bump into him again?

Urs Koenig
No, no, oh, no, I had to work with him later on, for sure, and he ended up being a nice guy. He was just posturing on the second day. But actually, so if I may, Pete, what then happened was I deployed into the peacekeeping mission and I opened my book with that story. We were escorted to a school play, end-of-year school play, and escorted to the front as part of the peacekeeping force, and I sat down and we were treated to a reenactment of the Kosovo War.

These are kindergartners, first and second graders, massacring their fellow students on the floor, shooting and shouting them, all with a roaring applause, to parents, teachers, and other students. And so, that was another lesson in humility. I thought I understood the conflict. I understood what’s going on. But when I sat there, I’m like, “You know what? I really still don’t get it.”

When you think you get it in a conflict zone, something happens, comes out of left field, like the school play, and you go, “You know what? I still am a student here and I need to ask bigger questions.” So that was another lesson in humility that I learned through the peacekeeping work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I can imagine you being in that scene, watching that unfold, and just kind of scratching my head, like, “What is going on here? And what does this mean?” And tell us, Urs, what was your takeaway from having witnessed that?

Urs Koenig
Well, you know what, my takeaway was asking bigger and harder questions, “So, is it our role as peacekeepers to not just build peace in their cities, but also in their hearts? What stories do these kids need to be taught at home and at school so that this nation can actually transform into a peaceful nation?” And so, the more I learned, the less I understood, it seems, but the quality of my questions improved, and like that’s no small feat. So that was a real takeaway.

The same in the Middle East a couple of years later. The quality of your questions improved but you’re always a student. You constantly need to learn because being in a conflict zone like that it’s just a humbling experience in itself.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Urs, you put together some of your insights into a handy book, Radical Humility: Be a Badass Leader, and a Good Human. Can you tell us any particularly surprising or counterintuitive or extra fascinating discoveries you made while putting this together?

Urs Koenig
The best leaders are actually deeply humble. In my personal experience, the best commanders in the peacekeeping force, they ask great questions, they’re deeply self-aware, they let their team members shine, and they constantly ask for feedback on how to get better. And we can look at the corporate world. Microsoft, Satya Nadella, how he transformed the tech giant from the Steve Ballmer command-control into what it is today, based on his own values, curiosity, constant learning, growth mindset, and humility. And so, those are two examples.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell us, what’s sort of the big idea or main thesis of your book here?

Urs Koenig
The main thesis is that, to actually win in today’s world, we need to be deeply humble. Leading in today’s environment is, by definition, humbling. No one person can have all the answers. And so, that is the big idea. The best leaders, the most successful leaders are actually deeply humble. It’s not the show-off folks who win at the end.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, could you maybe tell us an example of someone that you got to see up close and work with who upgraded their leadership by adopting this radical humility approach? What were they doing before, and what did they do differently, and what results emerged?

Urs Koenig
So, one of the best commanders I’ve ever had in the peacekeeping mission, he opened one of the meetings we had in his office with these words, he said, “I love you, Urs. You know I do, and this is not even close to being good enough.” So that’s a deeply humble approach. So, his words made me shrink in my chair, and I turned myself inside out then to produce the very best work I could over the next nine months.

Now if the guy would have chewed me out, if the guy would have yelled at me, I would have tuned him out. But because he deployed a core element of humble leadership, namely strong relationship-building, we had a very close relationship, he got me as a whole human being versus just somebody who did work for him, I knew he cared, he was supporting me in my career path, I was really able to hear and take in his message.

So that’s an example of radical humility in action, building meaningful, collaborative relationships with your people while holding to the highest standards. I call that tough on results and tender on people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. Well, so in your book, you’ve mentioned five key shifts. Could you give us a quick overview of each of those five?

Urs Koenig
Sure. So, the first is dig deep. So that’s the first pillar of leading with radical humility. It’s deep self-awareness, really understanding, and that’s what people think about when they hear humility, like seeing myself accurately, not having an overly low or high picture of myself. So that’s deep self-awareness. What’s tied in there is also the humility to know that I can’t achieve everything, but I can achieve almost anything I put my mind to. So, there’s the notion of focus.

The second pillar of leading with radical humility is tough on results, tender on people. I just talked about that. Holding our people to the highest standards while building meaningful and trusting relationships with them. The third shift is called lead like a compass. So, this is getting out of the spotlight, empowering my people to execute at the frontlines, getting out of the weeds, leading with my eyes on, hands off, and comprehensively delegating.

The fourth one is full transparency. If we want our people to really be empowered to make good smart decisions at the frontlines, they need to know more. And the only way they’ll know more is if we share more. And all the research consistently shows that we think we over-communicate as leaders and the message still doesn’t get heard. So, heard, 150 times, seven different ways, and only when you hear your people paraphrasing back what you’re talking about, then you know you’re heard. What’s also tied into full transparency is, and I write quite extensively about this, the value of vulnerability.

Vulnerability is the quickest way to build trust with your teammates as a leader, as a peer, and as a direct report. So being transparent about my shortcomings and what I want to do about them. And the last shift is to champion a fearless culture. There, I’m leaning on Amy Edmondson’s work on psychological safety, providing an environment where it’s safe for anybody to speak up with questions and concerns without fear of being shamed or, worse, risking their career. So, these are the five shifts of leading with radical humility.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we’ve had Amy Edmondson on the show, and we’ve heard some of the cool research on psychological safety. Can you tell me, are there any other veins of research or data or experiments or studies that really make this stuff pop in terms of saying, “Whoa, this is not just your opinion. This is gold”?

Urs Koenig
So, there is a particular study I’d like to talk about, but there is actually research on how humble leadership transforms into better bottom line results. So, there’s plenty of academic studies: higher employee engagement, better relationships, you know, healthier team dynamics, and ultimately actually better bottom-line results.

There was just an HR study published last week which showed that humble leaders are actually more likely to get promoted themselves. Why? Because they’re talent incubators. They grow and build their people up, and, as such, they become more successful leaders themselves, “So who do I promote? I promote the people who build other people up.”

But one particular study I’d like to talk about is this notion of vulnerability building trust. So, there is this study where pairs of complete strangers are brought into a lab, and they’re tasked for 45 minutes to ask and respond to meaningful personal questions, such as, “What does love and friendship mean to you, Pete? And if you only had one year to live, what would you change?” At the end of the 45 minutes, these complete strangers were asked to rate the level of trust they developed with their partner, 45 minutes.

When they responded, they rated their level of trust about as high as the level of trust they have with their average person in their lives. Some even rated it as high as their level of trust they have with their significant other. And I love this, one pair even got married. But what the research shows is that even sharing for brief periods of time with vulnerability is an incredibly powerful way to build trust in relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, could you demo some of this for us in terms of either these conversations or these questions? I guess it’d just be really nice to get a view of what is this humble leadership, radical humility stuff look, sound, feel like conversationally, as opposed to perhaps the average or the norm that we’re accustomed to in our professional communication interactions?

Urs Koenig
It looks like asking for feedback. You know, Pete, it’s all simple stuff, but it’s not always easy. At the end of every one-on-one with my team members, I ask for, “Hey Pete, what do I do well as your manager? And what can I do better?” Increasing our self-awareness by constantly asking for feedback, and we don’t have to be a leader or a manager to do this. We can do this in project teams, right? We can ask our team members, “What do you see me do well? What can I do better?” That’s one thing.

Another piece is wanting to get to know my team members or also for the project team, my teammates, on a more personal level, actually having a conversation about what’s going on personally with their lives. So, getting to know people as whole human beings versus just worker bees. So, self-awareness by asking for feedback and deepening relationships.

And Gen Zs want this. Like, it’s all the research out there shows we want meaningful and trusting relationships at work, and some studies even show that those young adults actually value relationships and relationship culture more than they value salary and money.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Urs, since you’re an example for vulnerability, I’m just going to put you on the spot. When you’ve asked people these questions, what have they shared with you and what changes have you made as a result?

Urs Koenig
I have been told that I, especially early in my career, that I was too rigid. I’m Swiss, right? Too organized, too structured, and not flexible enough actually, and so that I needed to sometimes soften up a little bit and maybe look at things from a different vantage point versus just powering through the original plan. So that’s one of the things I most definitely learned about myself.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And how have you implemented that to become more flexible?

Urs Koenig
Well, I actually then, what I do is, “So Pete, you give me that feedback, what suggestions do you have for me to actually do this?” And so, I have team members hold me accountable for it. So, I say, “Okay, I’m working on becoming less rigid and more flexible. Give me feedback in the moment when you see me go down a rabbit hole, and just stick to the original plan because we said we should,” instead of asking, “Hey, what other options can we look at here? Or, how might we approach this a bit differently?”

Pete Mockaitis
And then, tell us, if folks are asking for this feedback, and folks are reluctant to give it, do you have any pro tips on how we can encourage that all the better?

Urs Koenig
Yeah, it’s an excellent question. It happens all the time, right? So, one of the options is to actually call it out explicitly. Say things like, “Hey, I know it can be uncomfortable, Pete, for you to give me feedback. I feel exactly the same way with my boss but I actually see your ability to give me honest feedback as part of your professionalism.” That’s one thing, call it out explicitly.

The second piece, the second thing we can do is we can actually say, “Hey, Pete, I’m working on becoming a bit more flexible. What feedback do you have for me on how I’m doing with this?” So instead of keeping it just open-ended, I make you give me feedback on a goal I already identified for myself so that it makes it less threatening for the person to be honest about giving feedback.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. And I’m reminded of some of my work experiences where I’ve had folks, managers I’ve worked with, and we talked about some things I was looking to work on and learn from the project, and then they just flipped it right around and said, “Okay, and here’s what I’ve been working on.” I was like, “Oh, wow, okay.” And it was just really cool to see, as well as, “All right, well, hey, as we start working together, how about you chat with some other folks who’ve worked with me historically and they’ll give you a little bit of a sense of what I’m like to work with?”

And I just found those so striking in terms of like, “Oh, wow, you are a human who is aware that you are imperfect, and you have no need to try to hide that from me or show me how impressive you are as the big boss,” and I just immediately respected them more from right off the bat.

Urs Koenig
You know, I love what you’re saying here. It’s exactly that. So how many of us have bosses who are so arrogant and so full of themselves because they’re actually deeply insecure, right? So, actually, people challenge me sometimes, “As a humble leader, you’re just weak. You’re an emotional doormat.” But, no, to actually humbly invite feedback and share what I’m learning, what I’m working on myself, I need to be fundamentally confident in myself, have a fundamentally strong sense of self, only then can I do what your boss did as well, or I’ll humbly ask for feedback on what I can do better. I need to fundamentally be confident in myself.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. You have to have some self-confidence and some courage. So, help us out, Urs, what if we don’t have that yet, and we’re like, “Oh, my gosh, that sounds really cool in this utopian happy work-life world, Urs, but that actually sounds kind of terrifying to me”? How would you speak to those folks?

Urs Koenig
Start small. If you’re concerned about asking your boss for feedback or as a leader or your direct, ask a peer. Ask your best friend at work. So, ask somebody who you’re close with at work for some feedback, and start there and then build from there. And you know what, it’s a contact sport. So, humility is not for the meek or the weak. So, it is tough, right? So, there’s no two ways about it. We need to make ourselves uncomfortable to actually grow. So, in time, I would encourage and push everybody to just always take a step further than what you’re comfortable with.

Pete Mockaitis
These are cool examples, Urs. Can you lay some more on us in terms of transformational conversations that unfold in this radical humility style that you’ve seen go down, people talking and growing as a result?

Urs Koenig
So, one example I love is Brad Smith, the former CEO of the financial technology company Intuit. He’s now president of Marshall University. He volunteered to his board to do a 360 survey. A 360, as many of you listeners probably know, anonymously surveys everybody around you, around your strengths and weaknesses as a leader. But he then shared his 360, which he volunteered with his board, but he sent the report to the entire company via email.

So, the anonymous feedback that he got back, he sent to everybody at the company. He even taped, back then, a copy to his office door. He even taped the copy to his office door for everybody to see. So, what happens in the process? The top dog is sharing his shortcomings and strengths, with some vulnerability, publicly, and in the process makes it safe for everybody at Intuit to start working on their own stuff as well. So that’s humble leadership in action.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Well, do you happen to know any of the spookiest elements on that 360 report?

Urs Koenig
I am sorry, I don’t.

Pete Mockaitis
“I’ve received a lot of feedback that I’m a total jerk and a toxic boss. Very helpful. Thank you.”

Urs Koenig
That’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I guess, because you wonder, Urs, like, in terms of how much volume vulnerability is too much, or in terms of it’s like, “Oh, shoot, we’ve uncovered some deeply troubling things here. I don’t know if I want to broadcast that to the world”?

Urs Koenig
Absolutely. So, a couple of things there. So, I often talk about humility in three acts. So, the first act is me. The second act is what I’m sharing, maybe an insecurity, something I’m working on. And the third act is, “What am I doing about it?” So, give me the three acts. Don’t just talk about all the stuff you suck at. Go all the way to the third act.

And then the other piece is there is definitely, this is why this is a thinking-person sport, places and times where you share more, and places and times where you share less. And so, this is about reading the situation, knowing your audience, and in a one-on-one with somebody you feel close to at work, you probably reveal a bit more about your weaknesses than publicly in your first senior leadership management meeting. So, it’s situational, is the best I can say here.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And with the notion of being tough on results and tender on people, I’d love to get your pro tips on if folks are so tender on people, they find it difficult to be tough on the results, they’re softies and they realize they need to hold people to a standard, but they’re very uncomfortable doing so, any pro tips for them?

Urs Koenig
It’s actually one of the most common mistakes people make when they hear my topic, when they hear about humility, when they hear vulnerability, then they are too conflict averse, and they think that it’s not actually holding team members accountable. So, one thing, identify the one tough feedback you know you have to give and you haven’t given it, and go and do that. Just one. One tough feedback. Identify it and go and give that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, Urs, can you give us an example of a time you’ve done this, and what you identified, and what you said and what went down?

Urs Koenig
Well, I had, during my peacekeeping command, my first warrant officer was so nervous and so on edge that he endangered all of us in his handling of his weapon. So, I had to let him go, and he was the nicest guy. It was really hard to do. He was so motivated, the nicest guy but he just didn’t have it in him. So, I had to basically sit him down, and in a very loving way, tell him, again, “I love you, Marcus. You’re a great guy. You really try hard but you just don’t deliver. I cannot take you on a mission. You’re not fit for mission. You’re fired.” That’s it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And what did he say to that?

Urs Koenig
He cried.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Urs Koenig
He did. Yeah, but he accepted it, and he had no choice. And, to this day, we actually exchange WhatsApp messages.

Pete Mockaitis
So, it sounds like he understood that what you said was the truth, though he didn’t like it.

Urs Koenig
Exactly. I mean, Management 101, this wasn’t obviously the first conversation we had about this. There was a long process coming and lots of, in the business world we would call it performance improvement plans and whatnot. So, we had plenty of ongoing conversations around it. It wasn’t a surprise to him at all, and it never should be a surprise. That’s the other piece.

When we give our people feedback in performance reviews or otherwise on a regular basis, if they’re hugely surprised about the feedback, then you have not actually done your job as a leader. Because it’ll be an ongoing conversation, right? Not only asking for feedback, but also providing feedback.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have any pro tips for the actual delivery of the feedback, do’s and don’ts in that conversation?

Urs Koenig
Well, try to take the emotions out of it as much as you can. I mean, this is such a cliché almost, right? Center yourself, because often these things make us nervous. We’re anxious when we have to deliver the feedback. So, I actually use breathing exercises to calm myself down before difficult conversations like that. So, whatever your technique is, and be in a good mind space yourself, be clear around your talking points, think about what the other person’s reaction might be, have contingency plans, but be very firm on what you want the message to be and stick with your message.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And I am a fan of Breathwrk. I actually subscribe to the Breathwrk app. So, Urs, what’s your go-to “Calm down because I’m freaking out about this conversation” breath protocol?

Urs Koenig
Well, so I actually go and work out. So that’s the first thing I do, and that really helps me. So, I go and work out and then I do the two-minute sitting meditation basically, where I just focus on my breath. That’s it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And for the workout, are we talking cardio, are we talking strength, are we talking both, are we talking intense, are we talking light?

Urs Koenig
We’re talking, for me, personally light cardio, in that case, because I don’t want to tire myself out. I want to still be ready, but the cardio certainly. I mean, the research shows it over again, helps to calm the nerves down and helps us to be centered.

Pete Mockaitis
And your light cardio is more intense than a leisurely stroll? Or where would you put that intensity?

Urs Koenig
Yes, it’s a run, or a StairMaster, or a treadmill, something like that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And, Urs, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Urs Koenig
One that comes to mind is General McChrystal. So General McChrystal. He was the commander of the taskforce fighting terror in the Middle East. And his taskforce was losing the war on terror, you know, Al-Qaeda, much more nimble, much more flexible, and McChrystal was leading top-down command control, very old style, what I call heroic leadership. But he had the humility to recognize that he needed to change the way he led his taskforce.

So, he shifted from top-down command control, or as he put it, he said, leading like a chess master, controlling his pawns on the chessboard to leading like a gardener, providing the right environment, the right culture, so that his people could execute more swiftly, and more precisely, more independently. If you think about it, as a gardener, we can’t actually make plants grow, you can’t make flowers bloom, but what you can, what you must do, is plant the right seedlings at the right time and the right spot, provide a nurturing environment by watering, weeding and keeping pests out.

So, from top-down command-control leader to humble creator of the right environment, strong relationships, radical transparency. He got into trouble with the intelligence community because he was sharing too much with everybody. And so, that was a really interesting transformation that McChrystal, a tough military leader, went through to become a more humble leader.

Pete Mockaitis
That is really cool. I like that metaphor, because, well, I like chess and gardening. So, you really do get the sense for, that is a very different vibe in terms of, “I am having all the great ideas and I am masterfully commanding that they be executed. I have all the smarts. You do the smart things I’m telling you to do,” as opposed to, “I can’t do much other than create a better environment that works for you.”

And so, that’s a fun example, sharing so much information, intelligence communities are upset with you. Any other examples of master-guarding behavior from General McChrystal?

Urs Koenig
He said, “Thank you became my most important word, and, nodding and showing appreciation, my most important behaviors.” And so, I don’t know if you’re familiar with his book, Team of Teams. But in terms of networking his taskforce, he asked that everybody know somebody else on every other team. So, you don’t need to know everybody in HR, you don’t need to know everybody in Ops, but you need to know one person, so that when you need to work with this other team, you don’t imagine some adversary, but actually a friendly face.

And so, he builds strong relationships across and up and down the taskforce by applying this team of teams approach where everybody knows somebody on every other team.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you.

Urs Koenig
And, by the way, the taskforce became measurably more effective because of his approach. Al-Qaeda’s ability to strike was reduced by a factor of 17. And once again, or not once again, I haven’t probably mentioned it, I’m not advocating for humble leadership because you want to be nice or liked, because it produces bottom-line results, like McChrystal’s taskforce shows.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Urs Koenig
“Nothing changes if nothing changes.” Unless we make small changes every day, the big changes won’t happen.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Urs Koenig
So, I like the vulnerability research I just shared, and then Project Aristotle by Google, showing that psychological safety is the best predictor of a team’s performance, more important than talent, more important than the size of the team, who’s on the team and so forth.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Urs Koenig
My favorite book is Endurance by Alfred Lansing. It’s about Ernest Shackleton’s voyage.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Urs Koenig
I like the Johari Window. The Johari Window which identifies our blind spots. It’s a two-by-two matrix, basically.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that is popular, resonates with folks, you hear quoted back to yourself?

Urs Koenig
People like the tough on results, tender on people. I get asked about that all the time, and that gets quoted.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Urs Koenig
My website, UrsKoenig.com, or on social, I’m primarily active on LinkedIn, actually.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or a call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Urs Koenig
Just ask. Ask for feedback. Just ask. And ask to get to know your teammates better. Just ask.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Urs, this is fun. I wish you many lovely exchanges full of radical humility.

Urs Koenig
Thank you, Pete. That was fun.