Leadership & Culture Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Nidhi, welcome!

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Thanks so much for having me, Pete. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to chat here. Can you tell us what does this word attunement mean, first of all, because we’re to be saying it a lot?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, we are going to be saying it a lot. Attunement is our moment-to-moment responsiveness to our emerging needs and the emerging needs of others. It’s our ability to perceive, interpret, and respond to the emotional, social, and functional needs of ourselves and others.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, you’re giving me flashbacks to psychology courses in which I remember the way that I was such a hack, the way I got through learning a lot of definitions. And for the multiple choice, I was thinking, “Okay, is this psychological word a good thing or a bad thing?” because then I can cross out, you know, half of the answer responses. Like, “No, no, this is a bad thing. Cross out good things. I’m left with two choices.” So it sounds like that’s a good thing, Nidhi, is that correct?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
It’s a great thing. It’s what we want to aim for. Think about when you really are vibing with somebody, you feel in sync with them, they get you, you feel understood and heard. That is the essence of attunement, except it goes a little bit deeper, and I’m sure we’re going to dive in.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that sounds handy. Is it possible to overdo it, on attunement?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I mean, you can be overly attuned. This is what I typically would see with some of my clients back when I was a therapist. A lot of my clients that had a trauma history were overly sensitized to people’s cues.

So, for example, like a subtle change in eye contact or a shift in body language or tone of voice would, all of a sudden, signal to them that, “Oh, my God, I must have done something wrong. They’re mad at me.” When in reality, it was just, they were tired after a long day of work and had nothing at all to do with them.

So, yeah, there are instances where we can be hyper-attuned and, of course, everything in balance, just like with most things in life.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and could you share with us, you know, your book is called Working Well, how is this attunement relevant at work? What does it do for us?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, so it’s imperative at work. If you have learned about emotional intelligence, which is all about how we pay attention to our own empathy, how we regulate our own emotions, how we’re showing up in our interactions, attunement and relational intelligence is the next evolution of this.

It’s not only how we’re paying attention to what’s happening within ourselves and how we’re showing up. It’s what’s happening between us, between us in an interaction, in a conversation, in a difficult moment.

And it’s really handy in terms of a skillset to develop so that you can relate better with your colleagues, have a better relationship with your boss. And, of course, it extends beyond even the workplace to our romantic relationships, our friendships, our familial relationships, etc., too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, could you share a story with us in terms of someone who was not doing so well in the attunement and that had some consequences at work, and then they upgraded it and what happened for them?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I mean, this is where I have tons of examples. There’s lots of people that are really well-intentioned and think that they are self-aware and are connecting well with people. And then, in reality, it’s a total mess.

So one experience that I can share is of my own. I once had a boss who was teaching me how to teach. So I’m an executive coach, and part of her process was we had to submit these verbatim transcripts of what was said in a coaching session. And then she would review it and criticize us basically in front of the group.

So what I need in those moments is I need a little bit of a softening of the feedback. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. I can handle criticism. I can handle somebody telling me what I need to do better. But she went in on me.

I remember so vividly, she said to me, “Nidhi, you’re doing it wrong. Why do you keep doing it this way? You’re giving the answers to your coaching clients way too easily and you’re not letting them struggle enough. Like, I don’t understand why you’re not getting it.”

And I wanted to completely, like, turn off the Zoom camera, hide in a corner, eat some Häagen-Dazs. I wanted to cry my eyes out. I was like, “What is happening right now?” That was a moment of misattunement.

Now, sadly, she’s not a leader who necessarily learned how to do it better, but I can share an experience of somebody who got it right. There was a time in my life where I lost my best friend to stage four brain cancer. And this happened within a month of me taking a new position.

Previous employers had started off being really understanding and empathetic, but then something shifted and they told me to compartmentalize my grief. And so with this new team that I joined, I was absolutely dreading sharing this loss with them because I just assumed that they were going to can me, that they were going to say, you know, “Too bad. So sad. Here’s three days bereavement leave and you got to come back in.”

But this leader, her name was Cathy, she was so attuned to me. Her first response was to, first of all, call me. I texted her. She immediately called me. She asked me, “Nidhi, like, tell me about your experience. Like, I know how devastating this is. You were with your best friend as she was transitioning.” And she really connected with me on an emotional level.

And then, more importantly, when I came back to work three weeks later, because they donated their paid time off to me, I had zero hours accrued. They gave me three weeks. They didn’t check in on me to see about KPIs or to be able to get a sense of how I was delegating my workout. They instead really asked me questions about Laura, who was my best friend, about how I was grieving. And they gave me a space to help maintain her legacy.

So that’s an example of a leader who’s really attuned, they’re connected, they’re in-sync with what you need. And it made a tremendously healing impact on me and became the impetus for the work that I do today.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s very beautiful. And I’m certain, in terms of the dynamics of the team and your relationships and your ability to trust them and to disclose and to collaborate, I would imagine, get a real big boost from that kind of thing.

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
A hundred percent. Yeah, I mean, it really showed me how imperative it is to be connected and caring in the workplace, and what attunement can really do. And it’s interesting because we, like, talk about attunement in the context of parent-child relationships or even our romantic relationships, but nobody had studied it in the context of the workplace.

Yet I saw, time and time again, through the work I was doing with Fortune 500 that this was the skillset that was really the linchpin for connection at work. And yet nobody had studied it and nobody had examined it or definitely was not teaching it.

And so we’re the first ones to do it. And that’s why I wrote the book and do so much speaking on this topic now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s powerful. And I’m thinking about, we had a great conversation with Michael Sorensen on the podcast, who wrote a book called, I Hear You, all about validation. And he is just, like, “Everybody is just starving for this stuff. I feel like I have this wild superpower when I do it, like at work, with my friends, you know, with romantic relationships. It’s powerful.”

And it sounds like there’s a healthy overlap between these two concepts. And I would love to get your take on, you’re the first to do some of this research and work at work, do we have any hard-hitting data insights about this stuff?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, absolutely. So, first, let’s dive a little bit deeper into attunement, which is really broken down into four key skills. So this is, like, the brass tacks of this concept. And we studied this in the context of a bunch of different outcomes: psychological safety, individual and team productivity, connection and team trust. We looked at so many different factors here.

And so those four key skills are flexibility, reading cues, self-regulation, and collaboration. So flexibility, being our ability to adapt and be agile in our interactions. So, for example, if a colleague has something that’s top of mind and you also have something top of mind, that you’re able to shift gears a little bit, adapt to what their need is in that moment. It doesn’t mean that you don’t eventually circle back. It just means that you’re flexible with them.

It also means that you’re able to adapt your intervention. So, like, let’s say that a colleague of yours is struggling with anxiety, and you have another colleague who also has an anxiety disorder. Recognizing that no diagnosis is a monolith, and that we need to be adaptable in terms of how we support each person. So that’s what that flexibility piece is.

Reading cues, being able to notice what’s not said in an interaction. Somewhere around 60% of our interactions are based in nonverbal cues. So we’re looking at body language, demeanor, leaning in versus leaning away. And also, of course, the cadence, the tone, and the literal words that are being used in an interaction. So being able to read those cues and shift gears accordingly, super important.

Next, we have self-regulation. So this is your capacity to manage your own emotions so that you can connect with another person’s emotional state. And there are some helpful tools that we can get into like 4-7-8 eight breathing, being able to just ground yourself and be present in this moment so that you can then maintain connection with the other person.

And then the last is collaboration. So this is basically letting the other person know that we’re an allied front, we’re on the same team. And I think, even more importantly, that you’re going to be learning from them just as much as they’re learning from you.

So what we found is with mastering these four key skills – flexibility, reading cues, self-regulation and collaboration – all of those main outcomes that I just mentioned – psychological safety, team and individual productivity, connections, so cohesiveness within the team – all of that improved as a result and it ended up being the key to working well.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I like that clear rundown there. And so let’s hear it, what kinds of results do we see when folks upgrade these four skills?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, so, I mean, their productivity improved significantly. So not only were they able to focus and do better work individually, but now they were working better together as a team. The ability to trust and have confidence and have faith that the people on their team actually have their back improved.

All of these different factors are absolutely the crux of a healthy work culture. And, ultimately, it affects the bottom line, right? When people are disengaged, distrusting, they feel disconnected from people, it cost the global GDP $8.9 trillion. So that’s 9% of the global GDP being missed as a result of this level of disconnection.

So if we can leverage these skills of attunement, we start to close in that gap and bridge the gap to fostering better connection and just better team relationships overall.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, let’s tick through some of each of these here. With regard to flexibility, are there a couple key flavors or varieties you recommend engaging for folks? I think I had a guest who she said, “I might write a book about we need to have an inner monk and an inner David Goggins in terms of just the calm, deep, and then the screaming.”

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
And so those would be two of the extremes, I suppose, with regard to the flexibility and how you may adapt in your approach to someone. How do you think about the different varieties that we might flex into?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
I mean, for somebody like myself, I’m a very open-book person, right? Like, I wear my heart on my sleeve. And so somebody would need to adapt to that. But there are lots of people in the workplace that don’t necessarily have that trust or don’t feel safe opening up.

And so part of being flexible is taking it at a slower pace and just meeting them where they are in that moment. Like, we can’t dive super deeply into connection and relationships without first building that foundation of trust. And sometimes we get frustrated when we’re trying to ask questions and check in with somebody, and they’re giving you kind of cursory answers.

I think part of that flexibility element of attunement is recognizing, “Okay, this is just the stuff that they bring to the table and that’s all right. They move at a slower pace than perhaps I would. I can be adaptable and just take it slower. And, eventually, they will get to a place where they feel comfortable opening up to me.”

So that’s kind of an example that I can give you about how flexibility typically will look like amongst colleagues or even between a boss and an employee.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So that’s one domain of being flexible in terms of how disclosing and open we’re being in a given moment or stage of a relationship. What are some other domains of flexibility?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, so I think that you need to be able to adjust your body language. So sometimes people, you know, paying attention to how you’re showing up in your interactions. Some people like closer proximity. Other people like to keep you at a distance. You have to kind of read what’s going on with the other person.

Another example with flexibility would be being able to shift gears to adapt based off of what their particular needs are in that moment. So the most common example I would see is, in the give and take of a conversation, we kind of come in with our things that we want to share and maybe different touch points in the workplace of this project and where we are with this level of communication with the client.

But if the person that you’re interacting with has something else that’s top of mind, just being flexible means, you know, adapting based off of where they are in that moment. So perhaps in the beginning of the meeting, or in the beginning of the conversation, you start off with where their concerns are. You validate, you listen, you actively listen in specifically.

And then you might be able to shift gears towards the end of the conversation to bring it back full circle to where you want it to begin. But being flexible means that it’s not always about you, right, in the conversation, that we need to be able to shift as needed based off of where they are in that moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And to the notion of flexibility, I guess this whole attunement business, it seems very generous, kind, attentive, giving. And I suppose I’m thinking one side of flexibility is there’s a time to give and I think sometimes there’s a time to take. And so how do you think about that dimension?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
A hundred percent. Absolutely, there needs to be balance in relationships. Attunement is not about, “Let me self-sacrifice to meet everybody else’s needs.” And this is the biggest pushback that I typically get when it comes to this framework is they’re like, “But what about my boundaries? And what about my mental health and wellbeing?”

Uh-uh. Nobody’s telling you to become somebody’s therapist. Nobody’s telling you to abandon your own needs and service of others, but there’s a way to be able to prioritize both, right? So we need to be adapting to other people’s needs, but also it’s okay to ask for help, ask for support from other people. And they then need to be attuning to you in that moment, right?

So there is that give and take that is absolutely critical for any type of relationship and, I would argue, is imperative for a healthy relationship. Otherwise, it becomes very unbalanced and you feel like you’re giving, giving, giving, and nobody is there to support you in your time of need either.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s hear about some of key cues to read.

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, so part of the reading cues is going to be really paying attention to the non-verbals. So what’s their body language doing? Are they closed off or are they open when they’re speaking to you? Sometimes we even subconsciously cross our legs, which can signal that, “Hmm, I might not be as open to what you’re saying as you might think I am.”

Often, even the cadence of the delivery, right, influences how what’s being said is being interpreted. So if somebody, when you ask them, “Hey, how’s it going?” and they’re like, “Oh, I’m fine. Things are great. Just another day in paradise.”

“Hmm, are you actually fine? Or are you just trying to skate past through this conversation so that we can get to the moving past it and talk about business now, right?” which is often what I would see in the workplaces.

You know, people are so quick to try to not open up. And that, in and of itself, is a signal to you that they are actually more stressed than they’re letting on, that perhaps there’s actually something going on underneath the surface that they’re not disclosing to you.

Another element is, literally, when we are in conversation and we’re uncomfortable, we will lean away to put distance between ourselves and the other person. We do this subconsciously and it’s our way to be able to try to protect ourselves and create space. So pay attention to those cues.

As you’re sharing something with a colleague or with a leader, are they literally putting distance between yourself and them because that might mean that you’re evoking discomfort within them and you might need to shift up the way that you’re sharing feedback or sharing the information that you’re disclosing to them in that moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, this is fun. I’m reminded we had an interview with an FBI interrogator, Joe Navarro, who wrote about body language. And he suggested a number of things here, but he said, “The feet can often be one of the biggest tells in terms of once those toes are pointed away, that kind of means, ‘Yeah, I’d like to be out of here now.’” And it’s seems to be a pretty good reliable indicator of that kind of thing.

I’d love your pro tip here in terms of flexibility and reading cues, combine them together.  You said if someone seems like they’re in a rush, “I’m fine,” and they’re kind of want to move on to the business, well, now here we are.

On the one hand, we could accommodate what appears to be their desire, “Let’s go ahead and move on into the business.” Or, you could note, “Oh, it sounds like this person feels rushed or stressed,” so you could attempt to delve into that.

But then it seems like, well, I see that there’s branching possibilities that might not go so well. It’s like, “Hey, the cue was, ‘I didn’t want to go here.’ And now you’re trying to go here. Don’t care for that.”

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I agree with you. I think that we have to be respectful of people’s boundaries. But what I would push back on is that it all doesn’t have to happen in that exact moment, right? So you ask this question around, “Are you okay? How are you doing?” They give you the cursory, “I’m fine.” Okay, they want to move into business. We respect that. That’s great.

But then how about at lunchtime, we stop by and we say, “Hey, I know that you’re working on XYZ Project. How do you feel like it’s been going? Has it been stressful? Are there certain elements that you feel like you’re doing exceptionally well in? Can I support you in some way?” Right?

So now we’re asking a different kind of question. We’re not just, I also feel like, “How are you doing?” it’s not a great question. It just is too broad. I don’t feel like people, overall as a society, I don’t feel like we’re very open when people ask us that.

So if instead we can ask something specific and get a little bit deeper and a different interaction with them, they may be more obliging towards you, they may be more willing to share a little bit more deeply.

And, typically, it takes three goes at it before somebody really opens up to you. So don’t get discouraged if at the first interaction, they’re a little bit guarded, a little bit putting distance. Follow up a couple more times. And if they continue to be, like, cursory, okay, then respect that. But if they start to dive a little bit deeper, roll with that. Be curious. Ask more questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, and then self-regulation, what are your favorite moves here?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, so self-regulation, this is what I think most people are not great at because our own discomfort is evoked in our interactions. Like, we often think about triggers in the context of our friendships, our family relationships, our romantic relationships, like that annoying friend that only hits you up when she needs something from you, which gets on your nerves, it really irks you.

Yes, that’s a trigger, but we are also triggered in the workplace, right? So think about the times where you’ve come up with a good idea, you’ve shared it with a colleague one-on-one, you’re about to share it in a team meeting, and they beat you to it. They take credit for it. Really, really frustrating.

Or that leader, where every time that you receive an email from them, your body tenses up because you just know it’s about to be some sort of criticism or some sort of you being underneath the microscope. And so those are also triggers at work.

So if we can self-regulate, meaning we manage our own emotional state and we are able to manage our emotional responses in the moment, that ensures that we’re not reacting and we’re instead responding. So a couple of tips to use here and a couple of techniques that I can share.

One is 4-7-8 breathing. This is a science-backed technique that has been proven to reduce your blood pressure, provide more oxygen to your brain and to your organs, and it helps to reengage that critical thinking center that tends to go offline when we’re stressed and when we’re triggered.

So the way that it works is you breathe in through your nose for four seconds, you hold in the breath for seven seconds, and then you exhale through your mouth for eight seconds. And what you’ll notice is if you do this three, five, as many times as you need to, to calm down, you really feel a bit more grounded, and it gives you a bit of space between reaction and response.

Another really easy one that you can do if you’re just sitting at your desk and you’re just like, “Oh, my God, I’m feeling really stressed out,” is you could just rub your arms, you could do a quick stretch. Things like that bring you back into your body and helps you to get out of your thinking brain and back into your physiological state, right? It helps to regulate that nervous system response.

The last one that I’ll share that’s really simple is you can just turn your head from side to side and scan the room for threats. And what this does is it helps to orient you because the orientation centers of your brain are located in your eyes, ears, and neck.

And you’re basically signaling to your nervous system and to your brain that, “Hey, nothing is physically threatening. I’m okay in this moment. Like, I can take a deep breath and I can relax.”

Pete Mockaitis
It’s funny, the word threats, there are so many. I see a printer light just flashing and I find that slightly annoying. I didn’t even notice it before. I guess I’ve scanned and identified the smallest of threats. I suppose what we’re trying to accomplish here is you realize, “Oh, hey, there’s no one coming after me to do an attack.”

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Right. Exactly. Yeah, and even that you’re emotionally safe in that moment, it’s like, “Okay, this moment might feel really bad to me. I got an email from HR. That sucks. Nobody wants to get that email, right? As long as it’s not a layoff email, that’s a different story.”

But let’s say that HR is like, “Hey, I want to touch base with you,” and you have no context of what that means. And so you immediately jump to the worst conclusion possible, which is, “I’m getting fired,” or, “I’m being reprimanded in some way.” When in reality, they just want to do your onboarding or they need you to do this yearly training, right?

That’s the type of threat that we’re scanning for. And if we could just take a moment and be like, “Okay, what are alternate explanations for what’s going on?” Like, once we soothe, then we can start thinking it through. And that will help to deescalate you emotionally when we jump to these negative conclusions in the moment.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then collaboration?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Collaboration, super simple. It’s just simply letting the other person know that, “I’m on your team. I have your best interests in mind. You also have my best interests in mind. And we’re going to be working together to a mutually agreed upon outcome.” So this is where we’re going to be reciprocating in a relationship. That give and take that we referenced earlier is going to be part of a collaborative approach.

It’s also making sure that you’re in a learning position. Even if you’re in a position of leadership or, you know, let’s say you’re the team lead or somebody who’s heading a project, that you’re also opening up the conversation to learn from the other people on your team, because that collaborative approach helps to foster psychological safety and trust amongst yourself and the people that you’re working alongside.

Pete Mockaitis
So I understand that sometimes, when we’re trying to help, to encourage, to fix a situation with somebody that we’re doing it with the best of intentions, but that, with this attunement world, can totally be a miss. Can you unpack some of this for us?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, absolutely. It is well-intentioned, right? When we jump in to give advice, it’s because we feel helpless and we want to be helpful. And so what ends up happening, though, is before the words even leave the other person’s mouth, we’re like, “Well, have you tried this? Did you try setting better boundaries? Have you tried using Trello as like an organizational tool for you because you’re feeling overwhelmed?” Right?

Like, we offer all of these solutions to people. And what ends up happening is that, one, we’re trying to bypass their emotions to get them to a logical state of mind. And that’s not what they need in that moment. Two, it also feels very presumptuous. Like, we’ve somehow gotten the other person’s dilemma figured out better than they have it figured out.

And so instead of it feeling validating or feeling as though we’re being helpful to that person in the moment, it actually creates distance between us and creates what I call connection gap. So we don’t want to jump towards fixing. And there are a couple of other traps that we tend to fall into as well. Like, we tend to avoid.

So we either change the subject or what I see more commonly is we offer platitudes like, “Don’t worry, it’s going to get better,” or, “You’ll be fine. You’ll get through this.” Once again, well-intentioned, but we’re emotionally bypassing, and it invalidates the other person’s emotional struggles in that moment. And then the third most common connection gap or misattunement style that I see is people that are connectors, which sounds really good, but it’s not actually the style that we want to aim for.

Because connectors are the ones where, when we share something with them, they immediately jump in with, “Oh, my God, me, too. Totally get it. You’re struggling with burnout? I’ve been burnt out for seven years. You have a toxic boss? I dealt with a toxic boss for over a decade. Let me just tell you all about him, right?”

And what happens is, yes, well-intentioned, we’re trying to relate to the other person, but, unfortunately, the spotlight that was supposed to be shown on them has now shifted to you. And they go from a place of needing support to caretaking you.

So those are not the ways that we want to show up and support people in the workplace. Instead, what we want to do is we want to be an explorer. We want to be a person who is connected, who asks great questions, uses curiosity as a way to be able to dive a little bit deeper, that we’re good listeners, we hold space, we actively listen to what the other person is saying.

And if we can just explore, go a little bit deeper, it really does help the other person to feel seen, heard, validated, and they feel much more connected to us as a result.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that sounds lovely. I’d love your take, when folks are trying to do this, where do they fall short?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
When they’re trying to be an explorer, what ends up happening is that their own discomfort is what gets in the way, which is why we default to being a fixer, an avoider, or a connector. And it goes back to that self-regulation piece of things, right? Our own discomfort is what often leads to the connection gaps.

So if we can just manage our own feelings of helplessness, our own feelings of, “What do I say right now? I don’t know what to do. Like, they are coming to me sharing about how they have mental health concerns. I’m not a therapist. I don’t know what to say in this moment.” That’s our own discomfort bubbling up, right?

And subconsciously, that’s then going to be read by the other person because they’re attuning to you in that moment. They’re going to pick up on it and they’re going to pull back as a result. So we just simply need to manage our own discomfort, manage our own emotional state, regulate. And that’ll help us to stay connected and be in step with them in those moments of uncomfortable conversations that come up.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think you really zeroed in on something there. And I’m thinking about, when someone dies, I think it’s very common, I’ve discussed this with my mother, that folks, they’re uncomfortable. They don’t know what to say or what to do. And so they might just not show up at all. Or it’s just awkward because they don’t know what to say. Because, in fact, there is nothing you can say.

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s just going to say, “Oh, you know what? I am not sad anymore.” Like, there’s no such words that exist. And so it is uncomfortable. And so your message here is, well, you know, that that’s kind of a you problem, kind of learn to manage that discomfort. And do you have any pro tips on what do you say when it’s just hard and you have no idea what ought to be said?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
In those situations, it’s less about what you say and it’s more about how you show up, right? So you’re exactly right. There are no perfect words. There’s nothing that you can say when somebody’s parent passes away that’s going to make it better for them.

So that can’t be the goal at the end of the day. It’s not, “How can I alleviate your grief for you?” It’s instead, “How can I, literally, just be present with you in this moment, listen, and if you’re willing to share, for me to ask some really good questions, right?”

Like, “Hey, I know that this loss has hit you really hard. Can you tell me a little bit about what you’re doing right now to take care of yourself? Or, what’s been the hardest part for you losing your parent in this moment?” Sometimes just simple questions like that open up the dialogue.

And sometimes there are moments where people don’t want to talk about it at all. And instead, if you’re going to attune to them, then, okay, then you just show up, you watch Netflix with them, you order some takeout, right? You talk about anything else under the sun besides the fact that they just lost this person that they love so desperately. And sometimes that’s the most attuned response.

And so I just want people to take away that it’s not the words that you’re saying, there’s no perfect statement. It’s instead, “How can I be present and pick up on what’s really needed by the other person and show up for them in that way, in that moment?”

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s great, and I like the range of things you shared there. And I’m reminded, my mom, she’s told me this story several times. When my dad died, she had a good friend, and there’s a lot of this going on, like, “I don’t know what to say. I’m so sorry for your loss,” right?

She had a good friend, it’s like, “You know what? You’re going to have a lot of people showing up bringing you food. How about I just clean up and organize your refrigerator and freezer?” And she’s like, “That would be amazing. Thank you.”

And, I mean, it was perfect for her in that moment because that was not on any of our minds, but it was an outside perspective, and it was so useful and considerate. Well, you know, we remember it decades later, so, yeah.

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Absolutely. Yeah, and I think, to build on that, what your mom did in that moment, or what she received in that moment rather, was exactly what I would recommend as well. Just provide people a menu of options.

Like, if you don’t know what to do and you want to do something, better than not showing up at all, better than just, you know, “Oh, I’m just going to ask them. Hey, what do you need right now?” which people don’t know what they need in a moment of grief, they just don’t.

You can just simply say, “Hey,” like your mom received from whoever that person was, like, “I notice that your fridge might need a little bit of help. Can I pop in and take care of that for you?” “Hey, I noticed that groceries might be something that is difficult to run while you’re dealing with all of the logistics of funeral planning. Can I take care of that for you?”

“Hey, I noticed that you might need a little bit of vacuuming around, like, the basement. Can I take care of that, right? Which of those sound like a good option to you?” It reduces the decision fatigue that people feel, and it still is showing up in a way that’s meaningful to the other person.

And most importantly, it gives them agency and empowers them with choice in a moment where they feel completely out of control. It gives them some level of control over how you’re going to show up for them as well.

Pete Mockaitis
I also want to hear about your check-in framework, some sophisticated use of acronym there. Can you give us the quick rundown on these? What is it for and what are the steps?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, so it’s for conversations just like this, right, where you’re dealing with somebody who’s disclosing something difficult with you. They’re burnt out, right? They’re struggling with depression. They just lost somebody. They’re caregiving for an elderly parent.

And so CHECK IN, as the acronym, C is for curiosity-based questions. So questions that are open-ended, like, “Tell me more about,” “Could you help me to better understand?” “Would you be willing to share a little bit?” Right? They just are an invitation to the other person to share a bit more about what’s going on.

Then when they’re sharing, H is for hold space. We need to be open, not judgmental. We want to listen intently, and we want to resist the urge to jump in or to fix it. So we just need to be present in that moment.

E is for exploring support. So once you’ve heard what the challenges are, you’ve been able to hold some space for them. Now you need to empower them. So this is where that menu of options is very helpful. And one of my favorite questions to ask is, “What’s been working for you in the past? What has worked for you in the past? And what hasn’t worked for you?” so that you can now explore support that’s going to be meaningful and advantageous to them.

Once you explore the support, then you have to Congruently respond. So that just simply means follow through. If somebody says that they need more frequent check-ins, give them more frequent check-ins. If they tell you that part of what will help to alleviate their stress is you covering a meeting for them, cover the meeting for them, or communicate effectively that you won’t be able to do it.

Because if you don’t follow through and if you don’t communicate, it’s going to be detrimental to the trust that exists between you. So that’s what congruently respond is all about. And, inevitably, when we drop the ball, we have to, K, know how to repair. This is little bit of a stretch with the K, but that’s okay. We’re going to know how to repair, meaning we have to acknowledge the misstep, validate the feelings, and create a plan for how we’re going to prevent this from happening again.

So acknowledge, simply saying, “I know that I dropped the ball uncovering that meeting for you. And I’m really sorry. I know that that set you back in terms of your workload.” Validate. “I can imagine that was really frustrating for you. Like, you probably feel even more stressed now because I dropped the ball and now you’re having to do double time to make up for that.”

Plan. “What I’m going to do going forward is, if I’m not able to cover a meeting for you, I’m going to make sure to give you at least 24 hours notice so that you can make adequate plans for somebody else to cover that gap. Boom! It’s as simple as that. That’s how simple repair can be.

You notice how I didn’t give excuses. I didn’t try to explain away what happened, why I didn’t cover the meeting. I just simply acknowledged, validated, and planned. And then I-N is interrupt discomfort. So using all those emotional regulation tools that we just talked about earlier, and reset, which is another framework. But basically, it’s about being able to move from reaction to response.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d love your hot take, with regard to our emotion regulation, do you have any novel, wild, emotional regulation tricks?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I mean, the most helpful one that I can share with you is it’s by the acronym RESET. So super easy, but this has been a game-changer for me. It’s been a game-changer for my clients, both therapy clients and Fortune 500 clients. It just helps you to pause a little bit so that you can respond.

So the R in RESET is for reaction. Just noticing your physiological response. Do your muscles tense up? Do your palms get sweaty? Is your heart racing? Did your breathing get ragged? Because our physiological cues are going to precede our emotional or cognitive cues, meaning what you’re going to notice physiologically is going to come before what you’re thinking or feeling in that moment, right? So just notice what’s happening there.

Then we have to notice the emotions. Dr. Daniel Siegel, who’s written many a New York Times bestselling book, talks about name it to tame it. And the research has found that if we can just simply put a label to an emotion, it helps to regulate our nervous system.

So something as simple as just acknowledging out loud, “I’m feeling embarrassed,” “I feel caught off guard,” “I’m feeling stressed,” “I’m feeling fearful,” anxious, numb, exposed. That will help to regulate your nervous system.

What I don’t want you to do at this step is to try to think your way through it. Because, once again, that critical thinking part of your brain is offline and we need to do the next step, which is soothe before we’re able to explore.

So soothing is that 4-7-8 breathing, grounding techniques, rubbing the arms, scanning your environment, body scans, those are all going to help to soothe your nervous system and help to reduce that physiological activation.

Now we’re finally going to explore. So we’re going to notice past, present connections, because the way that we respond in this moment is not actually just about what’s happening in this moment. It’s often linked to past experiences. And a mentor of mine once told me that if your reaction is hysterical, its roots are historical.

So just pause for a moment and think about, “Okay, hmm, how does this look like, sound like, and feel like a past experience? Have I been caught off guard before? What does this remind me of?” Just linking and connecting those dots is really helpful.

And then, finally, the last, T is for tell. Just talk to somebody about it, process it. Being in connection and in community is also a nervous system regulator. And if you’re at work in your cubicle and you can’t, journal about it and then share it with somebody when you get back home that you’re able to trust and can feel like you can be vulnerable with.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
You know, I think that the biggest thing that I want the audience to really be reflecting on is where do you fall on the spectrum of interactions, right? Like, are you the fixer? Are you the avoider? Are you the connector?

And how can you start practicing some of these key attunement skills to move towards becoming more of an explorer? I think if we’re able to just develop the self-awareness, become more in tune with ourselves, we will naturally become more in tune with others.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, there’s a quote from Prentis Hemphill that goes, “Boundaries are the distance with which I can love you and me simultaneously.” And I love this quote because it really speaks to the fact that there is a way for us to hold both, hold ourselves and another person simultaneously, but we need to be able to protect our space and create that distance that will help us to facilitate that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I mean, something that I quote a lot in my keynotes is shocking, actually, statistics from Forbes, where they found that over 50% of employees would forgo a 10% pay increase to be able to just feel more connected at work, which was just mind-blowing to me, because you always think about how people just want to get paid more, which is important.

But people, if they were making $100,000 a year, would give up 10,000 extra dollars in their pocket just to feel like their boss or a colleague cared about them and was connected to them. It just really blew my mind.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
One of my favorite books is Simon Sinek’s Start with Why. I love it because I think it really gets to the core of why we’re doing the work that we’re doing. And he’s got so many great examples and case studies in there. It just is a masterfully written book.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
I personally have a routine that I do at the end of my day. I think that my after-work routines are what helps me to be effective in my work. So I do like a virtual commute because a lot of my work is remote.

So I’ll go for a long walk. I’ll physically change out of my clothes. I’ll make sure to sit down and watch my trashy reality TV. They’re all just part of my after-work routine that helps to signal to my brain, “You’re done with work.” And then when I do show up for work the next day, I’m able to be in the zone and focus.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to resonate with folks, they quote back to you often?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I’ll share two little gems. One is that, “We’ve confused communication with connection.” People love that quote because we have Slack channels, we’ve got all-hands meetings, we’ve got email exchanges, Teams meetings, but those are just focusing on communication. They’re not actually forging connection and bonds with people. So people really like that one.

And then the second one is that, “We don’t slow down because stillness feels unsafe.” We have these go, go, go schedules because we think that that’s how we’re going to avoid all of the stuff that exists within us. And if we did slow down, we would have to face the anxieties, the worries, the stress that we’ve been staving off.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
So two places, one, you can connect with me on LinkedIn. The second is through my website, NidhiTewari.com. You can find my speaking offerings there, and reach out to me through a contact form.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Yeah, I think that, ultimately, we all want to be doing better at work. We all want to be working well. But what gets in the way is these moment-to-moment exchanges that we have. I think every opportunity is a choice.

You can choose to build trust or diminish it. You can choose to be connected or be disconnected. You can choose to attune or misattune. And the choice that you make in that moment is going to determine whether you’re working well.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Nidhi, thank you.

Nidhi Tewari, LCSW
Thank you so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Chris, welcome!

Chris Duffy
Thank you so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about humor, and not just for the fun of it, but how it can actually enhance our experience of career and job and be an asset in that zone. But could you kick us off with a fun story about some of your most memorable moments in your career as a comedian?

Chris Duffy
Probably the most memorable moment I’ve ever had in my career as a comedian is I was a fifth-grade teacher before I did comedy. And so I never had use for LinkedIn because, listen, like you don’t get a job as a fifth-grade teacher through LinkedIn, like business networking, and you don’t get a job as a comedian through LinkedIn networking.

So I never had a LinkedIn profile, but I’d always heard about it, and I was curious about the world. So one day I went on and said, like, “Okay, I’m just going to make a profile.” And the first thing I realized is you could just say you work wherever. If you say you work for Nike, they don’t, like, email a Nike hiring manager, which struck me as completely bizarre.

And so I wanted to see how high up I could go. So I made my job on LinkedIn, the CEO of LinkedIn. And I thought, like, when I click save, it’ll say, “Error. You can’t do that.” But instead, not only did it let me do that, it sent an automated email to everyone in my contacts list that said, “Congratulate Chris on his new job. He is now CEO of LinkedIn,” which is, to me, that’s the funniest joke that I’ve ever been involved in. And I didn’t even make it. It was just LinkedIn’s like automatic emailing thing.

And then, I was the CEO of LinkedIn on LinkedIn for a full year. And at a year, it sent another email to everyone in my contacts list saying, “Congratulate Chris on his one year work anniversary as CEO of LinkedIn.” And that started going a little viral.

And so I got a message from someone on LinkedIn’s Trust and Security team. My account was frozen. And you can’t make this up. The person on the Trust and Security team, her name was Faith. And Faith said, “Your account has been locked due to concerns about its inaccuracy.”

I didn’t want to let the joke go because I love the joke so much so I sent her a photo of my license, front and back, and said, “There’s proof that my name is actually Chris Duffy.” And Faith said, “The problem is not that we don’t believe your name is Chris Duffy. The problem is you are claiming to be the CEO of LinkedIn.”

And I said, “Faith, you are taking a pretty disrespectful tone for someone who works for me.” And five seconds later, she permanently deleted my account. And so that was the end of my time on LinkedIn. But a very memorable moment in my comedy career.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. Okay. So one takeaway I’m gleaning right away is, “Go ahead and lie about how senior you are on LinkedIn, and the odds are pretty good, you can skate by for a good while with that.”

Chris Duffy
You know, if there’s one message I have for people, it’s, “Commit some light fraud.” No, that’s not my message. You know, I think the heart of what I like about that is that no one was going to hire me anyway from LinkedIn. So I think the thing that I encourage people to do is to think a little outside of the box, to not be afraid to play around and to have fun and to do something that is silly, even in a place where it’s serious.

And LinkedIn is a great example of a place where people tend to take themselves so seriously. So I think the more that you can be human and playful and fun, the more that things stand out. You definitely can’t and shouldn’t do what I did because, actually, one of my lasting contributions to society after me, they did make it so you can’t do that anymore.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, congratulations. Your ripple…

Chris Duffy
Thank you so much. We all want to have an impact, you know? We want to affect the generations after us.

Pete Mockaitis
…it reverberates. That’s beautiful. All right. And so it’s funny, I’m thinking I actually do follow a couple satire accounts on LinkedIn, and it’s really funny in terms of the difference, like the contrast when there is sort of a vibe, a tone, a subculture, a script. You know what I’m saying?

Like, there’s a little bit of a feel for how a LinkedIn post is “supposed to go,” like one-sentence hook grabbing you like, “I had to fire someone today.” Like, “Huh? What? Why? I had to know the rest, you know.”

Chris Duffy
Yeah, “Here’s what my wedding taught me about peer-to-peer marketing,” you know, something like that. It’s like, “What? What? What are you talking about?” You know, I think it’s true, in a lot of our lives, professional, personal, social, there are these like scripts that we’re supposed to follow or we think we’re supposed to follow, I think is a better way to put it, right?

Where it’s like, someone says, “Hey, how are you?” “I’m doing pretty well. Yeah.” “Oh, crazy weather,” right? Like, you just kind of, like, that’s what small talk is supposed to go like. And I think the thing about when we get into autopilot like that is that things just blur into the background. They’re not memorable and we don’t make real connections and we’re not actually our full human selves.

And, to me, the beauty of humor is that it lets us laugh about and acknowledge these, like, ruts that we get into that we don’t even realize are just like our habits. And the thing that I love about laughing with other people is, like, when you connect with them, you are actually genuinely connected. But also then people like you more, they feel attracted to you. And I don’t mean romantically attracted, like they want to spend time with you.

And there’s a lot of great studies that we can talk about that show that from a professional standpoint, if you are acknowledging things in a funny, humorous way where you’re willing to laugh at yourself, people respect you more even if what you’re acknowledging is your shortcoming.

They did a psychological study where they looked at people in job interviews. And people who acknowledged their shortcomings, like the things they didn’t know but made a joke about it, were much more likely to get hired than people who didn’t acknowledge it at all, or than who acknowledged it in a serious way. Because we like those people, we trust them, and we want people to admit that they’re not perfect, because we’re not perfect either.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And I’m just speculating as to the why behind that. And it feels as though, if someone is capable of acknowledging their shortcomings in a fun, lighthearted way, it kind of gives a subtle implicit permission that, “It’s okay to talk about those kinds of things with me and maybe it’s okay to talk about a broad range of things with me.” And so there’s just a little bit more of a vibe of comfort and safety. I’m totally reading a lot into this, but this is how I’d speculate are the underlying kind of facets that make it go that way.

Chris Duffy
I think that’s totally plausible. And I think another piece is that if you’re willing to laugh about the things that you don’t know or that you’re not good at, it probably means that those are places where you would be able to improve as well because you’re open to feedback on them. You’re open to growth.

Whereas, the things that you get defensive about that are like no-go conversation topics, it’s really hard to then grow in those because you’re locked in to like your idea that, “I already know everything there is to know about this.” And none of us do.

You know, I’ll give you another study that I love psychologists at a number of universities looked at, they did a study where people evaluated job candidates. And so they didn’t know that the people they were evaluating were actually research assistants reading from a script.

But when they were evaluating these candidates, of course, everyone rated the people who were qualified more highly than people who were unqualified. No surprise there. But between the people who were qualified, there were two people who were exactly identical, except one of them spilled a whole cup of coffee on their shirt before they came in for the interview. And they said like, “Oh, my God, I’m so sorry, I spilled coffee all over myself.”

And that person, the coffee spiller, was consistently rated higher, was rated more confident, and was the one that people thought they should hire for the job. And, for me, the big lesson that I take away is not, like, if you’re applying for a job, dump a scalding hot cup of coffee on yourself. That’s not the lesson.

The lesson is that we have this idea that we’re supposed to be perfect, that people want us to be flawless and perfect and have no mistakes and just impressive. And, in fact, when you’re like that, people can’t latch onto you. They can’t relate to you at all.

People much prefer someone who is a little bit of a mess, but is still good at their job and good at the things they need to be good at. And so, to me, I think lowering the bar in that way makes you so much more desirable as a job candidate, but also just as a person to work with.

I mean, think about it, Pete, like I’ll give you an example. In your real life, I think there’s an intuitive example, is if you, Pete, walk into a room and you meet someone and he goes, “Hey, by the way, Pete, nice to meet you. I have a six pack. I make a million dollars a year. I give to charity every single day, and I work at a soup kitchen. And, by the way, both of my kids went to Harvard, and I think I’m probably going to be nominated for a Nobel Prize.”

Like, you don’t like that person. You know what I mean? At best, you’re intimidated, and more likely you’re like, “I hate this guy. I never want to see this guy ever again.” That’s certainly how I would feel. Whereas, if you meet someone who’s like, “Hey, can you do me a favor? I think that my pants might have just ripped, right?”

Like, you have a lot more to talk about, a lot more to relate with that guy, even though it’s a little weird because they’re not perfect and you’re not immediately intimidated and are jealous and have all these other feelings about them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And what’s coming to mind right now is, internet personality. Her name is Elyse Myers and I just got her book.

Chris Duffy 
Oh, I love her.

Pete Mockaitis
She’s so delightful. It’s so funny, everyone loves her. That’s kind of where I’m going with that. I think her moniker is like the internet’s best friend or everyone’s best friend on the internet, something like that. And she’s repeatedly sharing her shortcomings, and her foibles, struggles with mental health and more, but she’s clearly very smart and very funny and very insightful and very personable. And when you bring those two things together, yeah, she’s the internet’s best friend.

Chris Duffy
Well, you know, I think the fact that you said very smart is actually, I think, really a huge and important piece here. I, for years now, have hosted a comedy show with the National Academy of Sciences, where we interview scientists about their work.

And, you know, I’ve interviewed Nobel laureates, I’ve interviewed MacArthur geniuses, all these really incredible people. And the number one thing that I’ve noticed is that people who are willing to say, “I don’t know,” or to be funny or to laugh at their own research, those are the people who are actually super intelligent, right?

Like, the people who don’t have a sense of humor and aren’t willing to admit that they don’t know some things or get defensive and blocked off, those are rarely the real geniuses. Because when you actually are exceptional at something, you have a level of confidence and comfort with admitting the limits of your own knowledge and also with trying to explain it simply and not just relying on jargon.

And so I think there’s a real piece there of, like, smart people, you can signal your comfort and your intelligence by laughing and by the things that you’re willing to laugh at and be open about.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I like that a lot. So can you give us maybe a story, an example, of someone in a professional context who upgraded some of their humor skills and found that genuinely helpful or transformative for their career?

Chris Duffy
One that immediately comes to mind is I talked to a former Navy SEAL, Joe Choi. And Joe was in very extreme life-or-death situations often. Even just the training for Navy SEALs can be really, really dangerous.

And when Joe was promoted so that now he was leading a team, he realized really quickly that the way to actually have people respect him, the way to have the men trust him, and know that in these life-or-death situations that he was someone they could rely on wasn’t to be super serious all the time.

The way he put it to me is that the best leaders that he had encountered as a SEAL, the best leaders took the work really seriously, but they did not take themselves so seriously. And so he found that he was able to motivate his team and to get them to be much more connected to him by being willing to laugh at himself.

And he told me probably the most dramatic laugh-at-yourself story I’ve ever heard, which is he was doing a training exercise where you were supposed to grab onto a ladder hanging out of a helicopter while you were in rough ocean waters.

And Joe managed to grab onto the ladder, he was going to demonstrate what to do. And he managed to grab onto the ladder, but he grabbed onto the wrong side. So instead of being able to climb up, he was actually getting dragged under the water. And he was struggling to breathe. He was about to pass out when he finally was able to pull himself up and flip over the ladder and climb up into the helicopter.

And when he got up, he was kind of gasping for breath and struggling. And it had really been a dire situation. And he says that all the guys who he’s supposedly leading are looking at him after this, like, scary and also, you know, not really like great example of how you’re supposed to do it. And one of the guys just said, “Wow, that was some real frog man shit.” And then they all looked at Joe and they saw if he would laugh, and Joe laughed really hard.

And he said that that became this moment for his group where they came back to it and it was like a bonding thing, but it was also a moment where they trusted that he was confident enough and honest enough about what had happened, that he was willing to laugh and acknowledge that he hadn’t done it right. And he said that that was something that really came back again and again in the group trusting him.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really nice. Well, can you share with us, I think we like humor, humor is fun, the points you’re bringing up makes sense. They check out. So what are some things that we do with that knowledge? Do you have any sort of key pro tips or questions or ways you recommend we go forward and do more good humoring?

Chris Duffy
I will say that, I think, the biggest thing that people get wrong about humor is, I think, people often think that having a great sense of humor means you are the one on stage with the microphone or in the circle at the party or at the water cooler where everyone is around listening to your story, and you’re the one that’s getting all the attention.

And I would actually say that not that that’s not good humor, but the people with the best sense of humor aren’t always the ones performing it. They’re not always the ones getting the attention. Often, the people with the best sense of humor are the ones who are laughing the most. So they’re generously giving their attention to other people.

They are noticing things that are odd and unusual and delightful throughout their day. They’re laughing about it, even if they’re not sharing it with other people. And I think that when you broaden your definition of good humor and what good humoring looks like to include that kind of humor, you avoid a lot of the pitfalls.

Because one of the big things that people always say is like, “Well, how do I make a joke that doesn’t offend people? Or, what if I cross a line?” And the answer that I would say to them is the safest way that you can bring more humor into your life is to not be the one making the joke, to find people who make you laugh and to laugh with them. People love that, right?

I mean, like, the number one way to make someone like you is not to talk more, it’s to listen more. So I think if you can bring humor into your life in those other ways, that will really make you magnetic to other people because you’re having fun.

And so something I would ask you is, like, “Who are the people that already make you laugh? How can you spend more time with them? What are the ways that you are naturally laughing already?” So maybe one thing, one exercise that I really encourage, which is really simple, but I think can be transformative is just keep track of everything for a week that makes you laugh, or a month, however long, but write it down.

Write it down on a piece of paper or in a notes app on your phone. And what you’ll find is that just the act of paying attention makes more and more things surface, right? Anytime we direct our attention towards something, we find more and more.

And so having more of that humor and that laughter in your life is going to make you the kind of person who laughs more and has more fun. And that has all these benefits, both professionally and personally.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s a theme that’s come up elsewhere in terms of like gratitude. If you are identifying things that you feel grateful for, or that turned out better than you thought they might in the course of the day, you are more inclined to notice more such things and feel more gratitude.

Chris Duffy
Totally.

Pete Mockaitis
So, in like fashion here, by taking note and attending to that which is funny, you’re having more of those good humor vibes going on.

Chris Duffy
I think this is kind of true of anything, right? Like, I talked to a guy recently who is a roofer. And he was just kind of telling me about, like, the good, what a good roof is versus a bad roof, and, you know, the kinds of roof that he likes working on and all that.

And then I was walking around afterwards, and I noticed all these roofs, right, these things that have been totally invisible to me. All of a sudden, I was like, “That’s like a nice roof. Oh, that roof needs some repairs.” And I have no ability to actually, like, repair a roof or know about it, but just having talked to someone who had a real passion for it and knew a lot about it, all of a sudden, this piece of the world that was invisible became really visible to me.

And I think the same is true kind of for anything, right? Like, if you’re always looking for professional chances to connect, you’ll find more chances to connect. And I think what I love about humor is that it offers us the ability to take ourselves less seriously, to make other people want to be around us, and to have a better time all at once.

Because it’s, like, without trying to think like, “I should have social connections.” If you focus on laughing, people want to be around you. You’re a magnetic person. And so just by noticing more of this stuff, you get those side benefits.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, to do the noticing, I’m just going to pay attention. I’m going to write it down. Are there any key prompts or internal questions you recommend that can generate more of this good stuff?

Chris Duffy
So, for me, for more than a decade, I’ve been a professional comedian, both like writing late-night comedy shows and telling jokes and as a standup, and doing all sorts of other stuff. And what I found is that, actually, the most interesting part of comedy is not the performing.

It’s actually the generating the ideas and the noticing the material because that’s the part that I think anyone can do regardless of whether you perform or not professionally, right? Like everyone can have more laughter in their life.

And so the first thing that I would say is the seed of something funny is something that is a little unusual or off or different than expected. The gap between how things are supposed to be or how we think things are going to go and how they actually are is where comedy lives.

So one of the things that I would do is focus really small. The artist, Sister Corita Kent had a practice that she did where she would, literally, carry around a rectangular frame made of cardboard, and she would just, for her art, would hold up that frame and just look at what was inside the frame, everything else, narrow her field of vision, and that’s where she would find the art.

And I think you can, literally, do that for comedy. Just look at a corner of your house and just spend five minutes noticing all of the small things in that, what are the things that are a little off or a little weird or a little different. And you’re not going to find something laugh-out-loud funny right away, but you might find something small and odd that then you can think about and is the seed of it.

Or, a more relatable way, I think, is, Pete, when you go to someone’s house for the first time, and you go in their bathroom, you notice all sorts of stuff about their bathroom, right? You notice, like, “Where is the toilet paper? Is it hanging over? Is it hanging under? What kind of soap do they have? Do they have a hand towel? Do they have paper towels? Is there a pile of books next to their toilet? Do the books kind of seem weirdly wet? Is there a candle? Is there a little spray?” All this stuff in their bathroom.

But if you go to their house a few times, that fades into the background really quickly. It just becomes a bathroom. So the more that you can switch into that new bathroom mindset where you’re actually noticing the things in your life, the more that you can see the things that are odd and unusual and delightful. And that can really make you laugh.

So can we do an experiment like in real time rather than having this be a…?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I was just about to go there in terms of looking at a corner for five minutes, how might that turn into some chuckles.

Chris Duffy
So, okay, so right now you’re in a hotel room, right?

Pete Mockaitis
I am in a hotel. I’ve had some flight cancellation action.

Chris Duffy
Great. So a hotel is kind of one of the most kind of stereotypically antiseptic places, right? Like, all the character has been taken out of it. And sometimes that can be hard to find something funny, but sometimes that in itself is the funniness, right? Like, that they’ve tried so hard to make no design choices, that it is bland in a way that is exceptionally bland.

So I would look around and be like, “Is there any art on the walls?” Hotel art is often funny to me, because it’s like, “What is the choice? Why is that the art?” What strikes your interest right away? Or what do you notice right away?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, what’s interesting is there’s these vases on top of inside-floating shelves that are tapered and they’re like pierced. It’s almost like it was a dagger that punched through this hanging shelf.

Chris Duffy
That is already incredible. I mean, that’s already really funny. Like, to think like the person who was like, “I know what they need. They need shelves that have been stabbed by a dagger. That will be our brand.” Like, that. And that’s a good example of, like, you could spend a week in a hotel room and never notice that, I think, but then you see it and you think about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And I like what you did there because, in a way, because what you said is like, “The seed is something that’s a little off, unusual, unexpected.” And that was that, but you didn’t bring me into the chuckle zone until you went that extra step associated with imagining the people who were discussing this, and deciding, “Ah, yes, this is what’s necessary.”

Chris Duffy
“This is our masterpiece.”

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s just funny because, but, really, who had this conversation? How did this come about? It’s genuinely silly.

Chris Duffy
Well, it’s also one of those things where, like, I think about this a lot where, like, when I’m in my own house and trying to find things that make me laugh. One thing that I always think is so funny is, like, on my washing machine, it says like, “Bright Whites. TM,” trademark.

And I’m, like, I love the person who was there who was like, “Listen, LG is going to own the phrase bright whites. That is our phrase. That’s really important.” And I’m like, “I think that that is not actually a trademark. Like, you might technically have that trademark, but Bright Whites is not memorable for anyone else. That’s just the white setting on my washing machine. I don’t think that you needed to trademark that.”

And, like, thinking about the person whose job that is, like this was probably like a series of interviews. There’s this, like, in an interview, they’re like, “I have a vision for naming the white cycle, something that we can own that will be like part of LG’s brand.”

And then they had a bunch of meetings and they filed paperwork and there was a lawyer involved. That kind of stuff, thinking about like the world behind the things that you’re seeing that are odd is often where I find things the most funny.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good, yes. And so, once again, it’s sort of like you’re noticing the thing and then you’re going deeper into it. I’m sort of imagining the lawyer there bumping into Bright Whites on like a GE washing machine, and said, “What?”

They just become utterly furious. And he, like, calls up their lawyer and starts cussing them out and screaming. It’s like, “If you think you can pull this stunt, you got another thing coming. I’m going to see you in court.” And they duke it out.

Chris Duffy
“You think you could screw me like this? Oh, you can’t. I will not allow this. No one messes with me.”

Pete Mockaitis 
Yeah, “Bright Whites. The trial of the century.”

Chris Duffy
It’s true. And that often is called the trial of the century. A lot of people don’t know that, but that was the real trial of the century. Something that is a trick that we often do to make something funny in comedy, in professional comedy, but I think you can apply this to your own life, too, is to take an observation and then layer on top an emotion.

So if you’re writing a joke, like one of the ways you can write a joke is, “I find it so scary that…” blank. “I find it so exciting that…” blank. “I am so happy that this thing happened.” Like, putting an emotion tells the audience how to feel about it. And often that, like, “I’m happy that this thing happened…” is what makes the audience laugh, because then you’ve set up like, “Here’s what I expect.” And then you can turn it in another direction.

And I think anytime we’re communicating, letting the people we’re communicating with know how we feel about something, and then the specific detail that we feel that about, that really lets them latch onto something really clearly.

So, like, “I am so confused by the vases in my hotel room,” or, “I absolutely love the way the vases in my hotel room were pierced by a dagger.” That is a sentence that people can latch onto emotionally.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now, I’m sort of combining these things. I’m thinking about, if you have an emotion associated with a thing that is unusual, it feels like we’re in comedic territory, per your previous notion. So I’ll throw this out here. When I have all of my laundry done, folded and placed in the dresser, I feel a sense of power.

Chris Duffy
That’s great! Yeah!

Pete Mockaitis
Like, I am unstoppable. So I feel like that’s a little bit unusual to feel a really strong emotional association with these somewhat ordinary occurrences in life. So it feels like we’re in fertile comedic territory here, Chris, but nothing hilarious is coming to mind.

Chris Duffy
Oh, I think that is hilarious. I completely disagree. I think that you feeling like, “I am powerful and I am the master of my domain because I folded my laundry,” is so funny and so relatable and wonderful. And I actually think this hits at a thing that is, you know, talking about how to be awesome at your job.

You just naturally did this piece, which is you took that noticing and then you put it onto yourself. So now we’re laughing at ourselves and the fact that you’re like, “The most powerful I ever feel, the most in control I ever feel is when I finish folding a towel. That towel is perfect,” right? Like, there’s something hilarious about that, and also very relatable, but it’s also that you’re laughing at yourself.

And this, again, like from a professional standpoint, being willing to laugh at yourself, being willing to like give people that in, that lets people connect with you. It lets people not feel intimidated by you, but also be impressed by you because it is really impressive to have this kind of self-knowledge. And so I think you just naturally did it in a really beautiful way. And I think that’s genuinely very, very funny.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Interesting. So that’s funny for you.

Chris Duffy
This is an important thing. Like, it’s funny for me, but often the things that are funniest for other people are actually quite obvious to us. They don’t seem funny because it’s like, “Well, that’s just me being genuine and honest.”

But our authentic, genuine, honest feelings are often very funny to other people because there’s this gap between how we actually feel and how we’re supposed to feel, right? You’re not supposed to feel powerful and in control when you finish folding the laundry, but you actually do.

So for you, it’s kind of like, “But, yeah, that’s how I feel.” And for me, it’s really funny because I haven’t ever thought about it that way.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, you’re illuminating a decade plus mystery for me. And that is the TV show, The Big Bang Theory. I’m not really a fan. I don’t find that amusing. And so we got Sheldon who expresses his ideas in a very, you know, scientific-y, multi-syllables, big words, whatever kind of a way. And then the laugh track always hits.

And I’m just like, “The dude is just expressing his mind. This is not actually a joke at all.” And the funny thing is, in some ways, I, at times, can speak like him. I have a friend who’s like, “Oh, my friend is like Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory.” So, for me, it’s not funny because it’s not unusual because I am also talking weird in a way that’s sort of like Sheldon.

And maybe there’s a level of self-insight, self-awareness to be had from that. And that’s really intriguing in terms of, “They think it’s funny, I don’t, because I think that’s just how some people talk and that’s normal-ish, but apparently that’s very…”

Chris Duffy 
What is funny about Sheldon? He is a normal, attractive, intelligent man. He’s a totally socially normal, intelligent, attractive man. I think he is the peak of masculinity and I don’t see anything funny about him. Like, that is a really funny perspective to have, right?

Pete Mockaitis 
Yes, that is what… well, I wouldn’t call him masculine, etc. But, yeah, that’s intriguing that other people will find, and that’s just a good heads up. It’s like, “Hey, don’t get angry if folks are laughing at that. It’s not hostile. They’re just appreciating something that’s kind of special or unique or different about you, relative to perhaps the human norm.”

Chris Duffy
Yeah. Well, I want to unpack that, if it’s okay. I want to unpack that a little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure.

Chris Duffy
On the one hand, sure, most times, I think, people laughing is not something to be offended by. It’s actually like a point of connection. But that doesn’t mean that people can laugh and be really mean in bullying you. So I think it’s possible to, like, you should be offended sometimes. So I think it really depends.

I think one of the things that is challenging about humor in terms of, like, the context that we’re in is there’s no such thing as a universal joke. There’s no such thing that’s always funny. Humor is always subjective. It’s always context-dependent.

So you strike me, I mean, we just met, but you strike me as like a confident, socially-adapted and successful person.

Pete Mockaitis
Handsome.

Chris Duffy
Handsome, charming, wealthy, powerful. You know, I could go on and on.

Pete Mockaitis
That checks out. It checks out.

Chris Duffy
But as a result, like, if we laugh about how you’re like Sheldon in some ways, I don’t think that’s hitting at some sort of like deep insecurity. And so, as a result, it is funny and it’s not bullying. But if that wasn’t the case, and you actually did feel like maybe you were getting, you had like a deep insecurity about how you fit in and that people were always laughing at you, and then we laughed about how you’re like Sheldon, that could actually be a really cruel, mean thing that wasn’t.

So I always go back to, like, “Is the laughter forming connection or is it pushing the person away? Are you trying to exclude them or include them?” And the kind that is really successful in our social lives, in our friendships, in our relationships, in our work is the kind that brings people in and makes people connect to us, not that pushes people away. And that’s always context-dependent. You can’t just have a universal role.

And speaking of that, like laughing at yourself is great in a professional setting, but there are these, like, lines. If you’re the leader of a company, people want to be able to connect to you. But also, you know, I’ve learned about the concept of selective vulnerability, which is like, if you’re a leader and you go into a meeting and you say, “Hey, everyone, the economics are really bad and we’re going to have to lay a bunch of people off, and I’m really terrified and I have no idea how this is going to go.”

Like, that might be really authentic and honest and vulnerable, but it’s not the right thing to say. People are going to be terrified and scared after that. Instead, you might want to be selectively vulnerable. So say like, “Hey, I’m aware that we are going into a really hard time and I just want to say, we acknowledge that and we’re going to figure out the way through together.”

So you’re still kind of acknowledging. You’re not denying the reality, but you’re not saying like, “I’m terrified and I have no idea what to do next,” because that’s not a helpful form of vulnerability. And even if that would get like a laugh in my context, it’s not worth the laugh.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have any thoughts about humor in terms of boosting resilience, ability to bounce back from mistakes, failures, these kinds of things?

Chris Duffy
Totally. I think this goes back to, like, my core message, which is that we think we’re supposed to be perfect. And in fact, you’re not supposed to be perfect. The most resilient people understand that, like, a mistake is part of the process. For me, in my work, right, like if I go up on stage and I tell a joke and it bombs, no one laughs at all, if I say, “Huh, that means I’m a terrible comedian,” then I’ll never tell jokes again.

Instead, what I need to say is, like, “Oh, that was information.” And because the goal isn’t to have one perfect night of comedy, the goal is to, over time, get better and better, then I say, like, “Next time I tell that joke, I will try clarifying it, or I’ll phrase it in a different way.”

And I think that’s kind of true for all jobs, right? It’s, like, if you view it as an iterative repetitive thing where you can laugh about your mistakes and not feel like it’s indicative that you are some huge disaster or failure, then you get better and better because the point is to have the hundredth time be better than the first, not for the first to be perfect.

And laughter, I think, really helps us with that process because it takes away the judgment and shame and it makes it so that it’s, like, fun to share how badly something went and it’s fun to laugh at it rather than to think, “This is like a thing I need to sweep under the rug and not let anyone see.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Chris, tell me, any key do’s or don’ts, top things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Chris Duffy
Well, you know, the number one things I want people to do are keep track of things that are making you laugh naturally, pay attention to the world around you. And I would say that, you know, the number one other thing that you should do once you’ve done those is try taking a small social risk and sharing something that makes you laugh with someone else.

Don’t just have the same regular conversation you have every day, “Pretty hot outside, huh?” or, “Whoa, crazy weather.” Instead, try telling them like, “The other day, on the way to work, I saw a squirrel try and jump from one tree to another and it fell. Have you ever seen that? A squirrel missed the tree?”

Like, even if the other person doesn’t laugh, you’re going to have a different conversation than you would have had otherwise. And I think that is both the seed of connection, but also the seed of so much laughter and joy and comedy.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. What’s funny with that squirrel, you’re right, that that opens all sorts of avenues of conversation in terms of…

Chris Duffy
What does it make you think? There’s something boiling around in your head right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I was like, “Well, was the squirrel okay? What happened afterwards? If you plummeted a long distance, you know, was it grass? Was it concrete? Like, did it get up and keep moving? Or was he done for?”

Chris Duffy
Oh, wow. Okay. You know, Pete, that is just indicative of what a kind, caring human being you are. And I will tell you, this is a true thing that happened to me. The squirrel I saw fell a small distance onto grass. It got right back up. But then it looked at me like, “You saw that. Oh, you weren’t supposed to see that.” And then it ran away.

So we just shared a really beautiful interspecies moment of, “Don’t tell anyone about this.” And here I am telling all of the listeners of How to be Awesome at Your Job, and that squirrel is furious somewhere, who is also, by the way, a listener. I could tell. He seemed like he’s listening to this podcast.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, now that makes me laugh because I’m imagining a squirrel with headphones that are, you know, pushing in the squirrel cheeks, you know, even more to make them even more fat and squirrel-like.

Chris Duffy
Yeah, and he’s wearing some of your merch, right, like he has like a T-shirt with your face on it, and he says, like, “That’s nuts.”

Pete Mockaitis
Wow. All right, man. This is your life. Like, all day, your brain gets to play here.

Chris Duffy
As excruciating as that joke was and a terrible dad joke, that is my life. That is for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Chris Duffy
I’ve been thinking about George Orwell talking about humor, and he said, “Every joke is a tiny revolution.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Chris Duffy
One of the best books that I read is Octavia Butler’s Parable of the Sower. I think that’s a really relevant book to our world today and also just a beautifully written book.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Chris Duffy
Oh, I want to say a microphone. That’s probably the only tool that I use regularly. And anyone who’s seen me try and do home repair will tell you this is the only tool that I’m safe to be around. So a microphone.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you sound good, so I’ll ask what are you working with there?

Chris Duffy
Okay, this is a, hold on, I got to look at it. It is an RE320, an Electro-Voice RE320, baby. Oh, yeah, that smooth radio sound. Hello.

Pete Mockaitis
There you go. And a favorite habit?

Chris Duffy
I’ve been trying to do the 7 Minute a day Workout app. And when I do that, I feel a lot better and it only takes seven minutes. So that’s a good habit.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Chris Duffy 
When people yell something back at me, it is often, “Sir, you need to move or out of the way.” Probably the key nugget, I think, from all of the work that I’ve done on humor is to be willing to laugh at yourself and to connect with other people through laughing more and taking yourself less seriously. I think even in hard times, finding something to laugh about.

And it could be as simple as watching a clip of outtakes from The Office, or going on Reddit’s contagious laughter Subreddit, or it can be an inside joke that you’ve laughed about with friends. But I think that idea that when you’re having a hard day, going back to something that reliably makes you laugh can transform part of the day, that’s something that I think is the biggest thing, and also kind of an obvious and intuitive one, but that we forget to do so often.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Chris Duffy
ChrisDuffyComedy.com. That’s the place.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Chris Duffy
At your job, find the person who makes you laugh and spend more time with them this week. And then share something with them that made you laugh. I think that connection, connecting on something that’s lighthearted and fun is going to make that person want to be around you more.

And it’s also going to make them feel really honored that like you’re the person that laughs at them the most in a positive way. And I think that those connections pay dividends in ways that we can never expect professionally.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Chris, thank you.

Chris Duffy
Thank you.