Pete Mockaitis
Graham, welcome!

Graham Cochrane
Good to be here, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Graham, we are talking about being a rebel, finding yourself by not following the crowd. That sounds cool. Can you tell us about one of your most rebellious decisions and how it worked out for you?

Graham Cochrane
I think the one that changed sort of the course for me was when I lost my job in the middle of the Great Recession. It was 2009, we just bought a house, we just had our first baby, we just moved a thousand miles away, and I lost my job, and I just didn’t want to go back to any job. I had floated for a few years, and I think I made this subtle agreement with myself that I’m going to do whatever it takes to find—it wasn’t that I didn’t like working.

Actually, I liked being in an office with people. It’s just I hadn’t found what was the right fit for me, and so I made the subtle decision to not take any job, or not even go look for a job. I was going to find a way to create an income the way I like to do it, doing things that were interesting to me so I could show up as my highest, best self.

I didn’t know if this was going to work. I didn’t know that you could create an online business, which is what I ended up doing. But that subtle decision of, “Nope, I’m not going to go get a job. I’m not going to even interview or apply,” and I got a lot of flak from family members, you know, the whole, “It’s the holidays. Hey, so how is applying for another job going?”

We were on food stamps for like 18 months, “So, are you applying for a job?” and I’m like, “Nope.” And it was hard because I wasn’t even confident in my decision but that was probably one of the most rebellious moves that, really, for me, shifted the course of my life and got me into entrepreneurship and content creation and writing books and speaking, stuff I would never have pursued had I never made that decision. So, yeah, I’m glad I did. I was scared out of my mind when I was doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
And you talk about living life on autopilot as well. Is that, in your view, kind of the opposite of rebelling?

Graham Cochrane
Yes. So, when I talk about being a rebel, I don’t know what comes to mind for you when you hear the word rebel. Sometimes it’s like James Dean.

Pete Mockaitis
Like Star Wars.

Graham Cochrane
Star Wars, yeah. It’s like either James Dean in “Rebel Without a Cause,” with a red leather jacket, or it’s Star Wars because you’re a cool guy, and you appreciate the Rebel Alliance.

Pete Mockaitis
I don’t know if that makes me cool.

Graham Cochrane
In my book, it makes you cool, Pete, and my daughter, too. But, yet, rebellion seems like a bad thing but it depends on what you’re rebelling against. And what I’m rebelling against, and what I encourage people to do in the book, is to rebel against conformity, which is just going along with what everyone else is doing.

Unless you have looked at what everyone else is doing, and the path it leads to, the destination it leads to, and decided that’s exactly what you want, then you’re actually in good shape because we’re in a current, we’re in a stream, all of us like that stick in the stream, and the stick doesn’t have to do anything. It’s going to end up wherever the stream takes it.

And I think that’s where conformity is taking us somewhere, the way we think about how we spend our time, how we think about family and marriage, how we spend our money. We’re just doing what the culture at large is doing. Or the little microculture of your friend group, your family members, your church, whoever you hang out with is kind of affecting you because we all kind of gravitate towards what everyone else is doing.

And so, to me, a rebel is just saying, “Hey, I don’t know if I like where this is going. Let me just step out of the stream for a minute, look around at the sort of core areas of life,” your work, your finances, your relationships, your health, your spirituality, the way you spend your time, “Do I want to go somewhere else?”

And so, to be a rebel, by definition, is to do the opposite of what other people are doing, but maybe the opposite is the best thing for you, and maybe the best thing for them, and they might be inspired to join you, eventually. But, yeah, that’s what I’m encouraging people to do, and it’s a very personal decision because what’s rebellious for you might be different than for me.

But it’s really lifestyle design, it’s being intentional with your life, and having the guts to do what you need to do for your life and your family even if it’s not what everyone else around you is doing, or even the ones who love you say you should do, because they just want to protect you and keep you safe, but we don’t want to be safe. We want to flourish.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of good wisdom there, for sure, because we can just get swept up, go with the flow, and end up where everyone else ends up. And if you’ve thoughtfully, clearly, carefully examined, it’s like, “Yes, that’s exactly where I want to end up,” well, then, cool. Just enjoy the ride, I guess. But, often, the problem is it’s not where we want to end, and we haven’t taken the time to really examine the situation.

It’s funny, I remember, I had… it was almost like an epiphany. So, I was in my business, doing things, making decisions, and it’s almost like I had just sort of the default assumption, and maybe this came from my finance classes, I’m like, “Of course, the purpose of the firm is to maximize shareholder wealth.” But then it was almost like revelation, like, “You know what, I don’t actually have to always choose the thing that makes the most money.”

Graham Cochrane
Bingo.

Pete Mockaitis
“I get to choose what’s the money target is. And if I want to do other things just for the fun of it, I get to do that. I’m not like the CEO of a publicly traded corporation who has duties and obligations, fiduciarily, in order to perform for these shareholders, so, no.”

And making a given podcast episode may or may not be profitable or modestly profitable but it’s cool and fun and interesting, and people appreciate it, and it opens up cool other opportunities down the road, and it’s just something I love doing, so I’m just going to go ahead and keep doing that, and that’s okay. And I think it’s so funny, I think about going with the flow, I’m thinking about fitness context now, and I’ve gotten sucked into this, too.

I think there’s science that suggests that when you’re pumping iron, you’re lifting weights, it liberates some more determination within you, just like feelings of that. Has that been your experience, Graham, in the gym?

Graham Cochrane
Oh, yeah. You’re like, “I can do this. I can do more. I’m going to do more.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. But, yes, that determination is almost affixed to the nearest thing in sight, which is more weights, but I could go ahead and apply that liberated determination to something else, and I have often been guilty of overdoing it. Like, every workout, I want to set a record, and that’s not the best plan, it turns out, as I’m 41 years old.

Graham Cochrane
No, you hit 40, you got to make sure you’re taking care of yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, I’m hearing you, like it’s quite easy to get sucked into an autopilot, go with the flow situation in all kinds of contexts. Could you illustrate this for us in the career space?

Graham Cochrane
Just in general, related to that, too, like there’s a lot of reasons why we go with the flow. Some of it is because we want to be accepted by the group and there’s sort of that subtle pressure. But, honestly, Pete, we’re just tired, too. We’re tired at the end of the day, especially if you’re in a job or career that’s frustrating, and then you’ve got a family. It’s a lot of responsibility so you’re just tired at the end of the day.

We end up abdicating our decision-making to what everyone else is doing, “Well, how do they manage their money?” or, “What kind of car do they drive?” or, “What kind of vacations do they take?” We just sort of abdicate. And I think we do this even in the career space, too, because it’s just easier than taking the effort to think because we’re just, honestly, exhausted.

I think, in the career space, we’re kind of like sheeple, you know, we’re kind of like guided around since we were kids in the school system where we’re told what to do, and people have studied this at length, but think about just the context with which we came out of the school system, was we don’t get to decide what grade to go. You go to the next grade, assuming you passed.

And you take the exams and you do the things they want you to do, and you might get some autonomy in middle high school where you could pick some electives and some classes. And then, if you do go to college, you get more autonomy getting to choose. But do we really choose the major we want or do we already get to that point of, when you’re 18, some people know what they want to do when they’re 18?

A lot of people, they’re just so young because there’s a million things you could do. Like, I’m multi-interested, multi-passionate, and even multi-gifted at things, which is confusing, it’s like, “I could do this. I could do that.” And so, I think, at 18, you don’t really know, so a lot of times we see these studies of people, really, at the end of the day, picking the major that makes them the most money.

It’s almost like a decision-making filter, “Well, I don’t really know what I want to do. So, what’s going to make me the most money? I’ll do that.” Engineering, or finance, or whatever it is, and so they pick it, and then it carries on until that leads you into what jobs to apply for. And then what jobs you’ve had, well, that’s the experience you have. And you are kind of trapped, unless you say, “You’re never trapped.” Unless you say otherwise, you are kind of already in this flow of just, “Well, this is the next logical thing.”

And what I want people to do, especially with the book Rebel, is to not do the next logical thing just because it’s the thing in front of you, because it might be the right logical thing if you’re in this career and you’re at this age or this stage or have this resume. But is that, to your point about your business, is that what you want to do? Is that what would actually fill you up?

My premise is that we’re all wired a specific way, and the frustrations in life come when we’re living out of alignment with our design, out of alignment with the way we’re wired. So, don’t fight the way you’re wired. There’s a way for you to actually flourish in your career in the workspace by being authentically you, but you’ve got to do some of that research to figure out who you are, what dreams light you up, what you actually want.

And once you get some clarity and a vision, it kind of makes the decision-making filter a lot easier now, like, “Okay, I could take this next job opportunity, absolutely. And it would mean this, this, these pros. And it would mean these cons, but now it’s not just a list of pros and cons.”

“I have a destination I’m trying to get to in life in terms of how I want to show up, what I want life to look like, and I can just ask ‘Does this job opportunity lead me closer to or farther away from that destination of the amount of time I want to have with my family, the way I want to feel, the type of people I want to work with, the types of projects I want to work on?’”

Some of the best people in an organization get promoted to managing other people, and now they’re no longer doing the thing they’re really good at. They’re just managing people, which is a different skill. We need good managers, but it’s not fulfilling anymore, it’s like, “I get paid more but I hate what I do because it was more fun to do the craft or the thing and work with the people than being the boss of them and not getting to do it myself.”

So, it really comes down to knowing who you are, what you want, so that you can better say yes to the decisions and advancements, or even going backwards a step if it means more fulfillment.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. I think my dear grade school principal was awesome, and I was too young to notice or appreciate how wonderful she was. But then I learned that, later on, she took a new role as a guidance counselor at another school. And you’d think, “Oh, wait a minute. Aren’t we going backwards? The principal is the boss of the guidance counselors and everybody. Isn’t the next step from principal, like, superintendent?” But I think she had a doubt, it’s like, “Hey, this is the part of the job I like the most was when I got to really kind of enter in students’ lives and see what’s up,” and that’s a beautiful thing.

Graham Cochrane
Oh, that’s real. That’s literally my uncle, well, he did the opposite. He was an elementary school principal and loved it and was so beloved in the Princeton school system at a school for many years, and he was so good that he got promoted to assistant superintendent, and eventually superintendent for all public schools in Princeton, New Jersey, and he was great at it, but it killed him.

Like, to the point when he retired, he had to, like, just chill for a year, he’s 50, because his adrenal glands were blown because he’s putting out fires and dealing with angry parents, and he’s like, “All I cared about was curriculum design for kids so they would actually get it and learn and flourish, and I wasn’t even hanging out with kids anymore. It’s, like, why did I do that?”

It’s a mixed bag because he got to have a lot of influence in some regards, but the natural path upwards isn’t always the most fulfilling path.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, dead on. And then, it’s funny, like those forces, in terms of, like, “Hey, it’s the next logical step,” so there’s that, you’ve got friends and family congratulating you, supporting you, like, “Oh, my gosh, wow. They’re going to give you the assistant superintendent job. That’s so cool. Congratulations!” So, you got that going.

You see dollar signs, like, “Ooh, there’s all sorts of things I’ve wanted to buy for some time that I’ve been postponing. Hmm, they could be mine now.” And so, there you go, those forces, you’re in a groove and they incline you to just take one more step in that groove, whether it’s right or wrong.

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, and that’s a great point. The groove and the step is, like, neutral. And sometimes group-think and where a culture is going isn’t neutral, that’s a topic maybe for another day, but it’s, like, a lot of times, these innocuous decisions of like, “Sure, yeah, I’ll take that promotion. Sure, we’ll do that. Sure, well, there’s nothing inherently harmful about it.”

But what’s harmful is stacking your life with those types of decisions because, then, you get to the end of your life, and you’re like, “Was that really me?” Like, I said something in a session with a coach I had one time, that’s like, “I don’t think the real Graham has come out to play yet.” Like, I’m still trying to discover who is the real Graham. If I’m not doing what others want me to do, if I’m not doing what I think I should do because I hold myself to a high standard.

But, to your point, where did those “shoulds” come from, “You should do this. You should show up in this way”? What would happen if I really figure out who I was and actually showed up in the world that way? What decisions would I make?” And it would ruffle some feathers at first, but I think there would be this beautiful freedom of, like, “Man, this is who I am. This is what matters to me and I’d be able to operate within the confines of the real world with a lot more clarity and confidence and joy,” and I think that’s missing in most people’s lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And I’m also thinking about, like, those voices in terms of any number of things, like buying a house or doing any kind of a deal. It’s sort of, like, everybody’s incentives are for you to go ahead and do that. It’s like the agent and the lender and all the powers that be, and it sort of takes a lot of gumption to be like, “You know what, this is not the right one after all. Sorry, everybody. Deal is dead. Hope you’ll find another one.”

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, and then a lot of us don’t want to do that because we don’t want to disappoint people. Even if we don’t say that out loud, that’s functionally what we’re doing, like, “Gosh, we’re already this far, and it would just be a mess,” and you’re in that current, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Totally. Well, let’s zero in. So, you said “I don’t feel like the real Graham has shown up to play yet,” a sentence that I think coaches would be fascinated to hear, it’s like, “Ooh, we’re getting somewhere now. Oh, yeah, let’s dig in.” So, if we find ourselves in such a spot, how on earth do we find the real Pete, the real Graham, the real person to liberate?

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, in the book, I walk through a five-part framework. It spells the word REBEL, so it’s easy to remember, R-E-B-E-L, and it’s a linear path, there’s exercises and processes for each one. But the first step is the R, to resolve to dream again. So, my premise is that the first way to figure out who you are is to get back in touch with what you dream about, or dreamt about, what you want, what you desire.

I think that dreams are clues, they’re data points to the way we’re wired. They don’t tell us everything about us but they’re a great starting point. So, I walk people, in the book, through a 50-dreams exercise, and this is a fascinating exercise. Some people find this pretty easy, and some people find this incredibly frustrating. It probably depends on your background and your personality.

But the process, and you could do this this weekend, is sit down and write down 50 things you want. If you get stuck, one way to think about it, I love Tim Ferriss’ question, “If you were the smartest person in the world, and it were impossible to fail, what would you dream of doing, being, or having?” Those are the three categories, “What would you dream of doing, being, or having?” if you knew it was going to work out, and you just start to write.

There’s usually five to ten that will come to people pretty quickly that are already there, top of mind, you’re thinking about them. Maybe it’s, “We really want to buy a house,” maybe it’s, “We really want to take a trip to Mallorca,” I don’t know. But you really have to keep going to 50 because it starts to get deeper to the ones that are dormant, buried, maybe you haven’t thought since you were 10, that you’re not creating a bucket list of, like, “I’m going to do all 50 of these things,” although you certainly could, or become all 50, or have all 50.

It’s more about getting intel on yourself of, like, “Oh, wow, yeah, when I was 10, I wanted to be in a Star Wars movie. That was a dream I had,” let’s say. And, oh, by the way, real-life Graham still wants to be in a Star Wars movie. That’d be super dope. What does it tell me about myself? And maybe we don’t know yet but there’s something about the playfulness of being in a movie, of acting, then something about movies, in general, maybe something about the movie industry.

But it tells you a little bit about yourself, and you’re just letting yourself get familiar with yourself again, starting with desire. I think everything in the world is created through desire. I think nobody invents something cool, or writes a book, or builds a business, or has a family, or does any charitable work without any desire first. We’re desire beings. We’re not like avoid-punishment beings, although that can work for a time.

But what drives humans forward is the desire for something. And so, the desire is the starting point, and I want to know what’s behind that. And so, I get people to go through that exercise, and there’s more steps in there to sort of zero in on what to do with those things, but it gives you a high-level 30,000-foot view or airplane-view of who Pete is, who Graham is, based off of what he desires.

And I really do think that doing this exercise, judgment-free, which is the hardest part, is to make sure that you’re not: A, no one is going to see this, it’s just you and yourself; B, we tend to judge ourselves. So, if you find yourself wanting to write down, “I would really love to have a Ferrari,” and you’re like, “No, that’s dumb.” Like, bro, you and you know that you wanted to write that down. Just write it down, there’s something about it. Whether you have the Ferrari or not, maybe it’s you really enjoy cars, maybe you really enjoy speed, maybe you really enjoy high-quality things, and it just tells you something about yourself.

So, if you give yourself the freedom to go through this 50-dream exercise, it’s shocking how many people have gone through it, grown men, kids, that all have been weeping because it’s like, “Oh, man, I forgot that I want this thing,” or, “I’ve always wanted to do this, or go here, or experience this.” And they start to get familiar, reacquainted with themselves a little bit. It doesn’t solve everything or tell you everything about yourself, but it’s where you start.

Pete Mockaitis
I like that. And what’s so cool is that it can just lead into so many interesting pathways. Like, for a Ferrari, what it’s about is like being able to experience the very finest craftsmanship of a thing, maybe. And then that just sort of opens up all kinds of things, “Well, what could I experience that again? Oh, maybe the best possible flashlight. Well, one of those $200 flashlights that police officers have that look amazing, I want to get that one.”

And so, that’s so small scale but, in so doing, it feels like you’re already entering into a different kind of a vibe or groove or energy or flow in terms of how you’re approaching life and what you’re getting after.

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, that’s a great point, Pete, because most people go into personal development, or this kind of self-inner work out of a place of, “I got to fix myself. I’m a mess or I have this problem.” And, yeah, you might have a mess, and you might have problems, we all do, but when you bring that energy as the first energy, like, “Oh, God, I suck. How can fix myself?” you’re never going to have curiosity, you’re never going to be imaginative, these parts of your brain that you really need to write and create new neural pathways.

So, I love starting with desire and dreaming also because, to your point, it starts with a great vibe of like, “Oh, yeah, man. I always wanted to have a basketball hoop in my driveway when I was a kid but I never did. And you know what, even if could go to the gym and play basketball, I’m just going to go get one, not even just for my kids. Like, for myself because I think it’d be really cool.”

It just gets you in a place of playfulness, and then judgment goes down, walls go down, and now you can actually think creatively as opposed to, like, “Oh, I can’t do that. I shouldn’t do this.” Like, there’s so many guardrails we put up because we’ve already blocked ourselves from opportunity because we just aren’t being creative and let ourselves think that way.

But this type of exercise, I think, puts you in a beautiful headspace where you can, at least, get curious even if you’re like, “I don’t know how any of these is going to happen. That’s okay,” but at least get in touch with what drives you, what desires you had, have, would have if you let yourself think about it, and you might be surprised.

You won’t be surprised by some of the things on the list, you’d be like, “Yup, I’ve always wanted a beach house,” “Yup, I’ve always wanted to live in this country for a month, but, man, I forgot about that or I hadn’t thought about that or articulated that in a certain way,” and it’s really instructive.

Pete Mockaitis
And I love your point when you said, with the basketball hoop, it’s like, “Oh, I could play basketball at the gym.” I think it’s very common for our little brains to fire off resistance of just, like, instantly kill that dream, it’s like, “Oh, that’s not really practical. Like, I already have a gym membership, and buying a basketball hoop is sort of unnecessary use of money.” It’s kind of scary how fast that brain could immediately terminate that. Any pro tips on that?

Graham Cochrane
That, I think, is the default wiring of so many of us, especially in America and in the West, we’re like a society that’s kind of built for what’s productive and efficient and makes sense. And by that means what makes money or saves money, because we kind of worship the dollar in a weird way. I don’t think every culture is this way.

But if you grew up in a culture like America, then you’re swimming in the thinking, so, yeah, that’s like, “That’s not practical. That’s a waste of money. Or, if I did it, it feels a little risque.” Even if it’s a $200 purchase, it’s like, “Oh, my gosh, like what’s the point? I already have a basketball hoop.” But, at the same time, there are so many things that we do.

We’re so confusing and so hypocritical as a culture. Some of these we’ll buy and do that don’t make sense but we just do them because we want them. And so, I just think that’s okay. I think it’s okay. Like, the work we’re doing here, again, is private, it’s just you and your journal or your Google Doc. You’re just trying to get better in touch with, like, “Hey, I’m not saying I’m going to go buy a basketball hoop, or a Ferrari, or I’m going to pull my kids out school and we’re going to move to the Caribbean, like whatever. I’m just going to get curious. Like, oh, this would be cool.”

So, for example, two summers ago, I took my family to Puerto Rico. We stayed there for three-four weeks in the summer. And we’re in this really cute town, Rincon, like a surf town, we took some surfer lessons, and people are really cool there, and it’s really laid back, and I was like, “Yeah, what would it be like if we moved to Puerto Rico?”

And I got some friends that live in Puerto Rico, and they’re like, “Oh, my gosh, bro. Like, 4% taxes, like all these entrepreneurs that are getting crushed in the mainland States.” So, I was joking with my wife, it’s like, “Babe, we could move here. We would save a crap ton of money, just operating the business out of Puerto Rico. It’s awesome, the beaches.”

And my kids and my wife know now that, like, when daddy says that or mommy says that, like, we’re not, “This is what we’re doing.” Nobody freaks out. We just play the game of, like, “Oh, I wonder what that would be like?”

And it just gives us the permission to dream a little bit. And whether we move to Puerto Rico or not, there’s something about when we were there, that we like, about the lifestyle, about it wasn’t glitzy, it was chill, the people were nice, the access to the beaches, tropical vibe. And so,“Okay, how can we incorporate that in our everyday life more often? And let’s just tuck that nugget away. There’s something about that that we like,” and we let ourselves play.

And I think that’s a muscle you flex because now I know more about myself. I don’t have to execute on it. I don’t have to sell everything and move to Puerto Rico. There’s no red flags here. It’s just an exercise of dreaming and stretching your imagination.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, we talked a lot about step one. Could we hear the rapid version of the E-B-E-L of REBEL?

Graham Cochrane
So, the first E after that is to establish the outcomes you want in life. So, you dream, that’s the high-level dream. And if you go through the exercises, there’s kind of a way of narrowing it down and getting more intel on some of those dreams, and now you know a bit about yourself. But next is really to get a vision for your life. And I think the most useful question here, and I stole this from Rich Litvin, who’s a friend and coach of mine, because it was the most useful exercise for me.

Pete Mockaitis
The Prosperous Coach.

Graham Cochrane
Yup, he wrote the The Prosperous Coach, great book. And the question is this, so I’ll do it with you, Pete. So, imagine we bumped into each other three years from now, and we’re at a conference or on a plane, and I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, Pete, I was on your show, like, three years ago, and I haven’t seen you since. How the heck are you?”

And you tell me, “Graham, this has been the best three years of my life,” and I’m like, “Oh, dude, that’s awesome. Like, tell me about it. What has happened?” This is the exercise, what would you have to say to truthfully tell me that it has been, past tense, the best three years of your life?

And whatever comes to mind is what you write down, “Oh, gosh, well, if it’s been the best three years of my life, this happened,” or, “We did this,” or, “I got rid of that,” or, “I moved here,” or, “My kids weren’t yelling at me anymore,” or whatever it was. Like, you just write it down – life, work, money, health, whatever – and, all of a sudden, you had this magical list that tells you something.

One, things you really value, and you might’ve gotten some inspiration from your 50 dreams list, but, two, the three-year mark is the magic for me, and that’s what I love about Rich’s question is, people have 10-year goals, and I’m a planner. Like, I’m high futuristic on the StrengthsFinder, that makes sense to me. But even for me, it’s hard to motivate me 10 years down the road, plus I’m going to be a totally different person in 10 years.

Like, I don’t know about you, Pete, but 10 years ago, when you were 31, I’m sure you’re totally different person and so much has changed in those 10 years, and it’s hard to predict. So, I don’t love 10-year goals because it’s easy for them to disappear. One-year goals are great for motivation. I love New Year Resolutions but they’re hard to completely change your life and hard to sustain because there’s like too much pressure on the goal to happen this year.

But three years is like close enough to my current day and season of life that I can kind of imagine my kids’ age, what’s happening, there’s already some season I’m planting that will harvest in the next couple of years. But, also, you and I both know, we could do a lot of damage in 36 months. We can completely transform our bodies in 36 months. You can completely transform your marriage in 36 months, your career. You can do a lot in 36 months.

And so, I think that three-year span is a magical timeframe. And so, this is the part in the process of, like, “What do I really want to be true in three years?” and seeing that in front of you. It’s so powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. Let’s hear about the breaking negative thoughts, habits, and patterns.

Graham Cochrane
Yup, you got it. B is break the negative thoughts, habits, and patterns. We do an inner story audit so you’re getting clear on your dreams and vision. But the thing that blocks people from actually living the vision, even if they have one, is the story they tell themselves. So, we do what I call an inner story audit, and we kind of quiet that internal default narrative that’s drowning out your intuitive sense and the guiding force that wants to lead you where you want to go.

Once you do some of that inner work and break some of that down, now you’re freed up to make some changes. That’s where the second E comes in, and that’s where we engage in rebellious new behavior, and this is just life changing. I walk you through the life change formula, which, real quickly, the way I look at life changes – belief, think, feel, do.

So, change your beliefs, change what you think about all day long, changes how you feel in your emotions, which, ultimately, changes your actions. And action is what changes your life, but it all starts with belief change, so we walk through that. That, and sort of setting up your days and your weeks, and pursuing the vision.

And then, finally, the L is the hardest part of the process for me, personally, and that is to let go of other people’s opinions and the outcomes we already established in step two. So, you hold them loosely.

Pete Mockaitis
That does sound hard.

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, you create a vision, you live intentionally, and, ultimately, since we can’t control the future, and I don’t think anybody that tells you they can is telling you the truth. You have to live open-handedly, like, “Hey, I’m going in this direction. I have no idea how it’s going to turn out, so I’m going to be really open-handed about it and enjoy the journey, knowing that I’m orienting my life to where I want to go, but I have no idea what it’s going to look like specifically.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, so if we do have some people-pleasing instincts, and that is tricky, to let go of other people’s opinions, any pro tips there?

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, I have people walk through creating personal values, or family values if you have a family. I find this actually incredibly useful. My wife and I were sitting on a back porch of this mountain house in Colorado on a vacation, and we were just journaling, and talking, and reading, and praying, and dreaming, and we just started talking about family values.

I said, “We’ve never really written down family values. Do we have family values?” And we went through them, and like, “Well, what are we valuing in our family intuitively without even articulating it?” And we realized there were five core things that we saw as patterns in our family, that they’re the Cochrane family values, and we wrote those down.

And having those written down, even on like my phone or a Notes app, all of a sudden, made a lot of these decisions or other people’s opinions about what to do or what we should do, very simple, we’d be like, “No, this is what we value as a family, so we’re going to do this or we’re not going to do this because we’re going to prioritize this over this.”

So, I think having at least personal values, like five to seven, can make, when other people have their opinion, you can go, “That’s cool. I received that.” Even if it’s your mom or your best friend, and say, like, “I received that but these are my personal values. I’m going to hang onto these, and they’re going to kind of anchor me in the direction I need to go.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I love it. And you’re right, it can really accelerate things. What comes to mind, it’s so simple, but as an example of a decision, I had a buddy, and his brother, his family was trying to figure out, “Oh, should we join a club baseball team?” And it was just like all his friends are doing it. He really likes baseball, and it was just like, “Well, you’re not going to be getting a baseball college scholarship, and it’s going to be a ton of travel and expense and going all over the place, so we’re not going to do that.”

It was just like what I thought, “Oh, man, that’s going to be a really tricky decision.” It’s like the family was able to render it like super quick just because, “Having some fun baseball times doesn’t jive with our family values and what we’re up to, and for another family it might,” but you have those up front.

Graham Cochrane
Dude, such a great example. Yeah, that’s a great example. Yeah, dude, that’s real for us. Like, my daughter, she was doing dance for so many years, and she wanted to do competitive dances. It’s the same version as that, a lot of travel, lot more nights of the week. And she kept asking to do it, and we kept saying, like, “One of our family values is being home for dinner as a family every night, or most nights out of the week. And if we make this decision, then it interrupts that family value. You’ll be around maybe one night out of the week.”

And at the time, she’s like 11 or 12, and we’re like, “This is going to be the rest of your childhood.” So, it was tough for her, and we actually let her try it for a season so she could sense the feeling of it because she really felt called to try. And so, she tried it, she’s like, “Dude, yeah, we never have any time together.” We’re like, “That’s what we’re talking about.” So, it was easy for her to say, “Not worth it. Fun but not worth it because it conflicted with a value we had.”

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, tell me, any final things you want to share before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Graham Cochrane
Yeah, I would just say, like, this whole process, so trying to find yourself and be a rebel and do all this inner work, what I think I love about this, and a lot of people miss this, and I try to bring it home at the end of the book, is the whole point of doing this, it’s ultimately not about you. It’s for you, it’s a gift for you, and it feels so good.

Like, I’m always in the process of trying to let the real Graham come out to play and become more my true self. But ultimately, I think the reason you want to find yourself and become a rebel and live your authentic life is because someone else needs you to be you. 

You were designed on purpose for a purpose, and if you don’t show up as fully you, you can’t be the person they need you to be. We’re trying to be who we think we should be but, ironically, if you just be yourself, then you will have more impact and be able to serve more people in your sphere of influence because the real you is coming out to play.

So, that’s what I would just say, is do this work at some point. Whether you do the book or not, just do some of the exercises we talked about today because other people are depending on you, and it’s so much fun when you get to be fully you and it makes a difference in other people’s lives.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now can we hear a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Graham Cochrane
My friend Rory Vaden has this great quote, and it’s stuck with me, “You’re most powerfully positioned to serve the person you once were.”

Because you know those problems, you know those pain points, and you can speak powerfully into it, and that’s who you can mentor along the way. And I just love that line.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Graham Cochrane
It’s either Harvard or there’s another review, but it was a study of impostor syndrome on professionals, doctors, lawyers, finance people, that 73% of people in this so-called white collar high-professional jobs view themselves as an impostor, they don’t belong there.

I think it’s fascinating to me because I think, as a human nature, I’m like, “I’m not good enough. I shouldn’t have gotten this job. I don’t really know what I’m doing. I hope they don’t find out.” And I think that’s just very encouraging because it shows that all the people that you think are impressive, they’re actually like scared out of their mind to be doing what they’re doing half the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And a favorite book?

Graham Cochrane
The Go Giver by Bob Burg and John David Mann. It’s a little parable about generosity changing this salesguy’s life. It’s just a beautiful book with a beautiful principle that’s very applicable, and anybody can benefit from it. You can read it in like an hour.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Graham Cochrane
I use Riverside. We’re using Riverside right now.

Pete Mockaitis
We sure are.

Graham Cochrane
I use it to film everything for my video podcast, to doing interviews. It’s just so helpful for all kinds of stuff, and it’s cloud-based and you can use AI to edit stuff. This is so fun.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Graham Cochrane
This is more of a process also, and that would be the 80/20 Rule, Pareto’s Principle. I’m always looks at “What is the 20% of the things I’m doing that are giving me 80% of the results?” Not to be more efficient to be a robot, but to realize, “Where is the waste in what I’m doing or how I’m doing? Could I get the same result or almost the same result with one-fifth of the effort or one-fifth of the time, and to free up my time and effort to double-down on that or do something more creative?”

So, I’m always using the 80/20 Rule, or 80/20 principle, as my favorite habit for just about anything in life.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that people really connect and resonate with; they retweet and they Kindle-book highlight and all the things?

Graham Cochrane
A lot of people, lately from Rebel, have been resharing the frustrations in life come when you’re living out of alignment with your design. And I think there’s just something there of like, if you’re frustrated, there’s external frustrations, nothing you can control, I get that. But a lot of our frustrations are self-caused, and it’s worth figuring out, “How am I wired? How was I designed? Because if I can figure that out and live in alignment with that, 99% of those frustrations go away.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Graham Cochrane
@thegrahamcochrane on Instagram is the only place I hang out online. Otherwise, GrahamCochrane.com for all the latest content, podcasts, and you can hang out with me there.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Graham Cochrane
Find someone to serve. Find a coworker, a boss to serve. Find out what they need. This is taking the Go-Giver principle, and just see if you can take something off their plate this week. These are tasks or a job you can take off their plate, like no strings attached. Don’t even mention, “I just want to do this for you.”

And only do it once. You don’t have to make it a habit. Just go give somebody something asking for nothing in return, and see if you don’t create more of a connection or a relationship that leads to other things down the road.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Graham, thank you.

Graham Cochrane
Dude, thank you, Pete. This has been fun.