Molly Tschang shares how to turn difficult conversations into opportunities to build connections and relationships.
You’ll Learn
- The preamble that helps your feedback land well
- How to say no while still being a team player
- What to do when you disagree with the majority
About Molly
Molly Tschang, founder of Abella Consulting and Say It Skillfully® Inc., empowers senior management teams to Win as One. With expertise in over 80 mergers and acquisitions, she has guided executives through the intricate human dynamics of transformational change and growth. Molly helps leaders cultivate mutual commitment, enabling them to excel in complex, high-stakes environments. Through Say It Skillfully, she equips individuals at all levels with the skills to communicate effectively and authentically. Her mission: to empower everyone to be seen, heard, and understood—especially when tackling their most critical challenges.
- Book: Say It Skillfully: Speak Up. Make Your Words Matter. Win Together
- Free Audiobook: The Me-You-We Framework
- Website: SayItSkillfully.com
Resources Mentioned
- Book: I Am: Escape Distractions, Unlock Your Imagination & Unleash Your Potential by Bruce Kasanoff and Amy Blaschka
- Book: Meditations: The Timeless Wisdom of Marcus Aurelius on Stoicism and Self-Mastery by Marcus Aurelius
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Molly Tschang Transcript
Pete Mockaitis
Molly, welcome!
Molly Tschang
Great to be with you, Pete.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to hear your insights about how we can Say It Skillfully. Could you kick us off with what are the most fascinating discoveries you’ve made about us and humans communicating over your years of coaching and teaching on this stuff?
Molly Tschang
I think, number one, is how much communication starts within. It’s so easy to say, “Pete doesn’t get it. They don’t want to hear it.” And when I realized this, this is so much of it is about our relationship with our own self and really be grounded within.
And it seems like sort of namby-pamby perhaps, but I have been with some of the most extraordinary communicators, and their ability to really be in service to others is because they really feel solid in themselves, and they’re not kind of worried about themselves. So, I think that’s really been first and foremost.
Pete Mockaitis
So, they’re solid in themselves and they’re not worried about themselves. What are the typical worries, concerns, hang ups that get in most people’s way here?
Molly Tschang
Yeah, the fears are real. And I want to caveat that I’m not about unicorns and rainbows, Pete. So, if you really are in an environment where it’s been shown that people don’t want to hear other people’s points of views, bad things really happen to you, Molly is not saying, “Skillfulness is really on your radar at all.” That would be a waste of time.
And my bigger question is, “Why are you there?” because I would really hope that you would be in a work environment where you could spread your wings and fly. So, first and foremost, we’re talking about places where people really do want to hear from people. They really want to get a sense of an accurate truth.
And the fears are real, and I say they’re threefold. One is just that fear of being wrong. And, of course, making mistakes is how we succeed. Like, conceptually, we all know that, but you go to school and you’re trying to get an A. And you don’t get an A by getting wrong answers. So, it’s been beat into us to get the right answer.
I’ve even heard senior people say to people on their team, “You need to be the smartest person in the room,” right? And when you’re in a room where everyone’s jockeying for a position like that, it’s intimidating. And so, if there’s a chance that you really may not be right, you’re inclined to be like, “Well, I better not say anything,” right? So that fear of being wrong.
The fear of not fitting in, which really gets to being perceived as not a team player. Let’s say everyone’s going one direction, you have a different point of view, but you’re a little bit hesitant to put it out because you don’t want to be like, “Eh, I don’t want to be like, I’m not, you know, all for the team,” and so we hold back, and that’s very real.
And the third one is, particularly, when we’re giving, I would say, constructive feedback that someone needs to hear. It’s this notion of, “I don’t want to offend them. I don’t want to offend Molly because she’s going to feel bad about herself.” And so, again, I would say that that’s about, “Hey, what’s your relationship about giving feedback to someone?” because that helps them to grow. That helps them to be a better person.
And so, that ability to have a mental shift on “Why are you speaking in the first place?” and to get whole with that, I really think can change the whole game for lots of folks.
Pete Mockaitis
And if we have these fears, what should we do?
Molly Tschang
Well, I think, first of all, it’s just really assessing, “Is it really there?” So, I hear this a lot, “Well, so and so doesn’t want to hear it.” I’m like, “Okay. So, if you have something that you see that the person is doing that maybe isn’t serving the team, right, and you don’t say something, how are they ever going to know?”
And so, what happens is people really are able to peel it back. Now, again, if someone has really shown they don’t want to hear it, again, I’m not saying stick your neck out, but I think a lot of folks will be like, “Well, wait a second.” And I say this, I mean, does your boss get out of bed, fly out of bed going, “I’m going to make it so scary no one tells me what I need to hear”? No, that’s not the output they do.
And so, I think if you take a little bit of lightness with it, people realize, “Hey, maybe there’s a little bit more fear in my own self.” So, I think it’s really determining if it’s valid or not. And I think the other thing to do is, “What is my intention?” Now, if you’re trying to speak up to make Molly look so amazing, like everyone else put down, okay, I would argue, I’m not sure about that intention.
If you’re there saying, “I want to say something because I think it’s going to help the team think more critically about this problem. I think if I say something, it’ll help people understand the customer’s experience,” then you’re really there serving the whole. And so, that intention, by the way, when you come across as really wanting to help others, that generally goes really well.
Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, it’s funny, that phrase, “They don’t want to hear it,” it’s like there’s layers of truth to that. And I’m thinking about a tale of two landlords. One, I’m thinking about like, so if you own a building and you got tenants, and then there’s a problem.
On one sense, we don’t want to hear it because it’s like, “Oh, no, this means money and difficulty in hunting down a contractor or a handyman, someone to repair this thing. And this is a hassle, a headache, a thing I wish I didn’t have to deal with.” So, on the one sense, we don’t want to hear it.
But I’m thinking about my friend, Lisa, who had some tenants just completely ignore, like, a really nasty rat situation. It was in the corner of the basement they weren’t in all that often, it’s like, “Yeah, whatever, you know, it’s kind of a pain, but, you know, I don’t want to annoy Lisa. I don’t want to put her out,” and so they just didn’t tell her for years.
And it just, as you can imagine, multiplied into an epic horrifying problem. So, it’s like, that phrase, “They don’t want to hear it,” it’s really good to examine that in some detail because, on the one hand, it’s probably true. They would prefer they live a life, a day without this big unexpected problem plopping on their lap, and them having to now contend with it.
So, on the one hand, yes, they don’t want to hear it. But, on the other hand, it is so much better to address a couple rats than dozens after years of neglect.
Molly Tschang
Yeah, 100% on that. And I think that gets down to what is our intention in sharing and how do we say it. And so, “This might be tough to hear, but I’m saying it because, if I were in your shoes, I would really want to know. I’m saying this because I think this will help. We’ll put something out there that is addressable now that if I wait a little longer, I think it only gets worse. So, I appreciate you being open to this because I really think it’s going to help us, the team, you.”
And so, again, it’s thinking about “What is worrying me about saying it?” and getting whole with that. I don’t want to make people bad or wrong for having fears or worrying, but think about that and then take the high road, like, “What is my intention? Why am I saying something? And it’s to contribute and it’s to be helpful.”
And so, I think this is like, “Ah, this is sort of really disgusting, but I have to tell you. I think it’s better to know now.” So, you can kind of grease the skits for how someone receives something by the way you offer it up. That takes a little bit of planning, Pete, right? So, you can’t just be like blurting stuff randomly.
And that idea of really, as a little bit of structure, which is the framework that we teach in our book here, is just, “Hey, what’s going on for me? The me side, getting hold of myself, getting out of my own way, knowing what do I want to have happen? And knowing that that’s what I want to have happen, how do I show up? What’s my energy? Is it with heart? Is it with anger? How do I show up to set the stage?”
And then that you is, what’s it like for the other person, which is like, “Ugh, no one wants to hear they have to spend more money.” However, they’d much rather spend less money now than more money later. And at the top level, the we, who are we together, here we are in this relationship and we want to have a really open, communicative, transparent relationship where we’re trying to help each other.
And they don’t really want you to live with rats, frankly, and you don’t really want them to have a major rat problem, ideally.
Pete Mockaitis
Yes, certainly. Okay. Well, could you maybe share with us some beautiful, illustrative conversation examples from your work, either your own conversations or conversations you’ve helped sort of navigate, mediate, that bring some of this stuff to life?
Molly Tschang
Just yesterday, I was talking to someone who has been at our company a long time. They have a new manager. The manager has been promoted to a more senior level and the relationship with this person had been fabulous because they were not micromanaging and diving in when maybe they shouldn’t be now because they’re more senior.
And so, that idea of, “How do I give this senior person constructive feedback without risking my head being chopped off or them freaking out or being even more anxious than it’s already obvious to you that they are?”
And so, because this person happened to have a pretty good relationship, I mean, I said to this person, “You are not at risk of being fired, and you should know that you’re trying to really help this individual be the best leader they can be. And if they don’t know that what they’re doing demoralizes the team, the team feels dismissive,” they had a specific example of how something was said that the manager thought, “Oh, this is so fabulous.” And then her point of view was, “No, that was not fabulous.”
So, getting hold of that situation, and then it’s saying, “Hey, I want to this person aside,” saying, “Amy, we’ve worked a long time. I have a ton of respect for you and I’m really glad you got promoted. I want you to be able to look great for everybody. And in our last meeting, I’m wondering how you thought that went.” And so, you start to get an engagement of how the person, their reality of the situation.
So often we get into it and you want to blur it out, “This is what you need to do,” right, because you’re so worried about saying it, but that ability to kind of on-ramp with someone, create a conversation, and then kind of say that’s how that landed for you, “I can see what you were trying to do when you said that, but I want to share something because I think it may be a blind spot for you. We all have blind spots, Amy. And I think this could really help you be even more effective.”
And then you share that, and you go back and forth. It’s not a “My way or the highway.” Again, it is your reality. And I have this notion of shared reality. We want to get to an accurate shared reality. And Amy is only going to be able to lead to her full potential if she kind of appreciates, even though she might have meant something, it landed differently.
And so, I think the biggest part for any individual is just that courage. Because it does take courage. It is far easier to say, “She doesn’t want to hear it. It’s not going to go well. I’m not going to say anything.” And the thing is, if you do that, which is totally your right to do, you’re contributing to the problem. You’re not a bad person, but you are perpetuating the disconnects.
And that is what I’ve seen, Pete, I call them your A and B players, they’re like, “Wait a second. I didn’t work my butt off, whether it was community college or Harvard or Cambridge, to be beige or a wallflower. I want to be able to contribute.” And so, that’s the energy. You have to come with that. And if you are coming across in a way to be helpful, genuinely to be helpful, the person may not want to hear it – but you know what – they’re going to respect that, and deep down, they’re going to be grateful.
I have just seen this time and time and time again, because, even at the most senior levels, we’re all human. And, by the way, we all do stuff that we think is going well and it’s not landing that way. It doesn’t make us bad leaders. It means that people are different. We all respond differently. So, I mean, I think that one working, managing up, if you will, giving feedback up is a big one.
Pete Mockaitis
Well, we talked about the fear and the courage and the “They don’t want to hear it,” I mean, there is a segment of, you mentioned sometimes these fears are completely justified in terms of retribution or whatever. They will not receive it even if you say it as skillfully as Molly herself.
So, could you help us? If we’re gauging, doing like a risk assessment, what might be some indicators that this really is a danger zone to say this versus, “No, no, we’re just getting in our heads. We’re, like, we have nothing to fear, but the fear itself. Summon the courage and you’ll be glad you did”?
Molly Tschang
I think people are pretty apparent about that. And so, “Hey, I’ve noticed how that meeting went. How do you think the meeting went?” You just open up with an open-ended question, “You know, I’m really working on improvement. What are some areas you think I could be improving? Hey, I’m going to flip it a little. Where are some areas that you could be improving?”
You can see if someone’s going to go with you on that, or if they’re like, you know, stiff arm, like, “What are you talking about?”
Pete Mockaitis
“I discuss these matters with my coach, not my subordinates. Thank you very much.” “Oh, dang.”
Molly Tschang
Exactly. That’s like a clear indicator. Okay. That’s like get out the resume, freshen up the resume and let’s go, right? I do understand that it’s a big disconnect. It can be very hard to look for new roles. I really want people to value themselves, Pete, because you have to decide that you’re finding a place that deserves you.
I know so many people, super hard working. I mean, you’re going to go all out and you got to find a place that values you, and that’s on you. It’s not someone else’s job. And it’s a very personal decision. And I get, sometimes, things aren’t exactly perfect. That’s fine. You decide for whatever reason that’s the right situation for you at that moment. Totally respect that.
I don’t want to give people both sides. You can’t complain about it and not be willing to do something about it. That’s where I have to call a spade a spade.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, and I’m sure it varies quite a bit by industry and situation and dah, dah. dah. But if I could put you on the spot to very roughly hazard an estimated guess of what percent of people can handle getting some feedback versus what percent, I will say managers and up, versus what percent are just not worth it?
Molly Tschang
Yeah. So, this would be only Molly’s very limited experience. I have no data on this, but my very limited experience is, I think, there’s probably 15, 10, 15%, they’re not bad people. They cannot kind of get out of their own way, in certain situations, right? In certain situations. And in those cases, it’s far better to be at peace with that and figure out “How do we work it so that we can mitigate this?”
Seventy-nine percent of relationship issues, if you will, are perpetual. We don’t solve them. They are there. So, it’s, “How do we manage around those?” The more we have transparency about a tendency, let’s just say, as a leader, I have a tendency to jump the gun, shiny new object, right? And I know that. So, if I’m transparent, “Team, I know that I can be attracted by the shiny new object, and that can feel like I’m deprioritizing these other things.”
“I’m being open about this and I’m giving you full authority when I’m doing that, to do a Heisman, or whatever you need to do so that I can wake up and appreciate that I’m kind of going off a little bit.” So, I think the leaders who do that, I mean, are empowering their teams to be part of the solution, are owning, showing vulnerability in a good way because we all have stuff, right?
Pete, no one’s perfect here. We all have stuff. No one, for the leaders are out there, you’re the leader for a reason. People respect that. I think something has come up recently, where sometimes in decision-making, a leader wants to seem very inclusive, which is fantastic. However, if the decision has been made and, in your mind, you’re just going to do X, and by the way, you’re the leader, so it’s your prerogative to make the decision. Just let the team know.
“I took some feedback,” or, “I didn’t take feedback,” or, “It was a short amount of time. I’ve made this decision.” What people don’t want is to go into a meeting, you’re pretending to take all this input when you’ve already made up your mind, right? So, these are the things where I’d say, from a transparency standpoint, the leader knowing, “Okay, where am I on this? Hey, I’ve decided this is the call.” Awesome. Tell people.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so you’ve got these specific scenarios where the fears pop up, and it could benefit a lot to say it skillfully. So, we talked a bit about giving that feedback. How about some additional magical words, phrases, scripts, pro tips for these other scenarios, like speaking up when you disagree, confronting a bully, sharing bad news or a mistake, setting boundaries, saying no? Give us some of your top scenarios and favorite ways to say it.
Molly Tschang
Well, I think the saying no when people are like, because the people who are the highest performers, right, they’re always getting more stuff because they get it done. And so, this is where I would say to people, you’re enabling people to give you the work at 5:00 o’clock and it’s due at 9:00 a.m. or what have you. And so, you have to draw the line.
And part of that is, “Oh, I said you’re being a great teammate and you are helping them to be more planful. You’re helping them to be a teammate.” And so, this is where lightness, I would say, I would offer folks, “Oh, my gosh, Pete, I love working with you. You’re so great. You’re driving me out of my mind. Okay? And so, I’m going to tell you right now, I’m not doing it.”
“I said, Pete, I’m not doing it. For the last 20 times you’ve come to me, I’ve done this and I can’t do these 11th-hour ditches, so I’m going to tell you no. And here’s why. Because I have these other priorities, people came to me, I’m accountable for this. I know you can appreciate that. Once in a blue moon, I’m happy to jump through hoops for you, but it can’t be a habit.” Right?
This being open-hearted about it and how it serves the whole, not, “I’m right and you’re wrong.” But, “I understand what situation you’re in. I’m explaining my situation so you get it, and I’m doing the best I can for what I believe serves the organization.” And that’s defensible. Again, people might not like it, but we don’t want to enable people to be going with behaviors that don’t serve them.
The same thing, I think, goes with boundaries. It’s just being clear, “Oh, Pete, but I don’t want to be a witch.” I said, “No one said you had to be a witch.” I said, “Hey, team, this is the deal.” Whatever you might have at whatever time, “I want people to understand, I am a thousand percent in.” Maybe you’re available later in the day or what have you, but you explain to people how you’re going to get your work done and you just let them know, “I will get it done. I need this amount of time because of…” whatever reason. And people will honor that.
I think people feel bad about asking for what they need. But I think if you’re delivering and you’re adding value to the team, you’ve earned the right to say, “Hey, I want to continue to perform at a very high level. And this is what it takes for me to perform at a high level.” For some folks who aren’t maybe getting as much feedback as they might like from their managers, and managers are busy. They’re running around. They’ve got stuff and they’re not trying not to. They maybe just haven’t had the time to think about it.
“Raymond, I would really appreciate a chance to sit down with you every month to get a quick rundown of what you think is going well and where I can improve. And the reason this is important is I’m going to feel more motivated because I’m getting specific input. And I feel like I’m going to be able to do a better job for you and for the team.”
Go in with a positive intent. It’s easy, “Well, they don’t value me. They don’t trust me.” Maybe they don’t, but that’s not going to set you up for success if you start that way. Show the positive intention that you would like someone to give you and reflect that back to them.
And then, I think, sometimes we get into the solving mode, and I understand this. “Get in. The project is late. What are we going to do?” That ability to acknowledge where the other person is, to be human. Let’s say someone you’re working with shows up and they’re just not quite themselves. You’re a little uncomfortable, frankly, with that emotion so you just want to jump to the work even faster.
But I would offer, “You know, Sandy, before we get into the project, you don’t quite seem like yourself. Is everything okay?” That’s it. That shows caring. Now people say, “I don’t want to pry.” I’m not asking you to pry. Sandy may say, “Oh, I appreciate that,” or, “No, I’m fine. I just didn’t get a lot of sleep,” or what have you.
But that moment is for you to connect because effective communication starts when you actually connect with the other human being. So don’t feel that that’s a waste of time. That’s helping someone feel they’re seen, they can feel heard. I think for some folks who tend to want to solve a lot, the last thing I’ll say is this, my favorite is say more, right?
We have two ears. We have one mouth. Then give the other person a chance to fully share what’s going on for them without you feeling like, “I have to construct some brilliant response,” but rather just hear it for what it is.
Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you know, it’s funny when you talk about just acknowledging that there’s a human and their emotions and what’s up, I recently had a conversation where someone said, “Oh, how are you doing?” I said, “Oh, hanging in there.” And he said, “Yes, so what does that mean because…” and he figured it out. Like, that’s my code phrase for “I’m not doing great, but I don’t feel like really getting into it so I’m going to say I’m hanging in there,” which is accurate. Whereas, to say fine is to lie.
Now you could say, “Well, hey, it’s a social norm, so it doesn’t count as a lie.” So, okay, that’s another conversation. But so that’s my little personal code but he saw right through it, he’s like, “Wait, but so, like, what does that mean?” And I thought that was so good because we were able to talk about the things, and it was very helpful.
Molly Tschang
That’s good. That’s really good.
Pete Mockaitis
Because you’re right, it’s delicate because you don’t want to pry, but you really do care and you really are conveying, “No, seriously, I’m offering you the permission to tell me what’s actually happening in your life, in your current mood, state, vibe. There’s an open floor invitation for that conversation right now, even though you might not be accustomed to that in many work contexts.” So, yeah, you don’t want to put them on the spot, but you do care. What do you recommend?
Molly Tschang
So, I think this is realizing that we can be skillful and show that we care and do everything that we can. And that’s what we can do. We can’t make the person feel comfortable sharing something. Some people, they’ve never shared at work. And I understand, I have done workshops with people, and I had one person say, “I’ve been at this company 17 years. I have never had a conversation like this.”
The ability to be real and to share who you are and what’s going on, particularly your struggles, that’s not the norm. I think, to the extent that you can create that space where people can show up, not to bog down work with all the personal problems. That is not the point, but that people appreciate that we’re not pretending you’re some perfect robot that just marches along and everything is, like, fine.
So, I think the individual may say, “Well, you know, I’m fine.” “Okay. Well, I just want to make sure. I care about you. And I just want you to know, if there’s any time that I can be helpful to talk about something off the record, I’m here for you.” That’s it. That’s it. You’re extending an opening and an olive branch, sharing that you care. You’re showing that you care.
And I can assure you that, even if they don’t respond to it, deep down, that lands well, right, because we’re human beings, at the end of the day. We’re not project manager or tech lead to, right? There’s a human being with a lot of life experiences.
And I think one of the things that, I think the social media is not so great for that, but, you know, we learn the most from the things we mess up and the struggles and stuff that’s hard. And it’s not really necessarily fun to share. You don’t want me to brag about how weak I was or how I screwed something up but I think creating space for people on that front is really important.
In fact, there’s one situation where this person talked about this conversation. It turns out this person, essentially, cannot see out of one eye, but had never shared this disability with people because he just didn’t feel comfortable doing that. And, of course, we’re in awe of him to be able to function the way he did.
So, I want folks to own your own sense of courage, and that when you share and are open of yourself, that’s an invitation to let other people know that they can do the same. And you have the saying, “I can see you because I’ve gotten to know you.” And to get to know someone, it’s about hearing their story and being open to hearing it without judgment.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now let’s hear about the scenario in which there’s a group meeting situation, folks generally seem like, “Okay, yeah, yeah, this is the thing we’re going to do.” You think it’s a terrible idea. You’ve got the minority opinion of disagreement. Any pro tips on going there?
Molly Tschang
This is where you have to get deep down and say, “You know, I’m saying this not because I want to be right and make everyone wrong. I’m saying it’s because I think that there’s an angle here that we would want to explore. And I think weighing in that way can help. So, I am observing,” so you’re noticing, “I’m noticing everybody’s on the same page with this, which is great for you, folks. I have to share that I do see it a little differently or a lot differently.”
But what you’re not saying is, “You guys are all wrong and I’m super right.” Okay, that’s not the insertion. “I see it differently. I’d like to share this to spur the discussion. And I’m sharing it because, obviously, I want us to get to the best answer for us, for the customer, for whatever, so,” and then you share it.
I think, lots of times, people feel like they’re trying to one up, they’re trying to like go through all the details that you may not know. Realize you’re only seeing it from your angle and you can share, “I’m in customer service. I know all you folks are in engineering and in marketing. I see perhaps something different and I want to give you the benefit of what I see because I think it could inform the best decision.”
It takes being grounded in myself to be able to offer that in a way with that language. So, that’s where I would say getting clear on, “Hey, why am I here? I’m not here to make everybody else look stupid and I’m the smartest one in the room. That’s not why I’m here. I’m here because I do legitimately see something different.”
And it can also be, “You know, I’m really tracking that everyone is seeing this the same way. I’m missing a few pieces. Could you help me understand X?” Rather than say, “It’s not going to work when you do it that way. When this happens, help me understand how that’s going to move.” You’re being curious without judging, without expecting an answer.
So, I think that just giving folks different ways to insert so that you’re best serving the whole. That’s my main message here is that we’re here because we really want to help everyone get to the right state. Okay, sometimes people have to make their own mistakes. You’ve done what you can. If they’re like, “Hey, we hear you, Molly. I think that…”
And the leaders can say this, “You know, given what I know, I’m going to go with this. I might be wrong, but we’ll go with it. And if we need to change course, we will.” You’re like, “Okay, great. You go with it.” You did what you could to the best of your ability. You sleep well at night.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I’d also like to hear your perspective on what are some things you recommend we don’t say, like common missteps, like, “Uh-oh,” you’re better off maybe purging any key words or phrases from our vocabulary?
Molly Tschang
So, two come to mind. So, one is if you’re a more senior person, really not, it could just be anyone, but someone comes to you with bad news or tough news, something you may not be so thrilled to hear. I have heard senior people, the first thing out of their mouth when a more junior person tells them something that’s not easy to say, “Who said that?” Just like, “Did you just blurt that out in a very aggressive declarative tone to someone who was trembling because they wanted to tell you something that they thought you needed to know?”
So, I get that you might be outraged. I get that you’re trying to connect all the dots. The number one thing, when someone comes to you with stuff that might be tough, is to say, “Gosh, before I say anything, thank you. I appreciate that may not have been so easy to say. And I want everyone else who is here to know that I need you and want you to be able to come forth with things that maybe you don’t think I want to hear.”
So, the leaders who do that, you have to reinforce it every day. What happens is the leader is like, “Well, I told them that they should be able to say anything that they want.” And you said it once, you know, in January 15th of 2025. Like, it doesn’t work. It has to be reinforced and it has to be backed up with how you respond when someone gives you the bad news or something that they don’t want to hear, okay?
And that doesn’t mean you’re happy about it. I’m not trying to conflate that. Saying, “Hey, I really respect that you shared that with me. I’m going to push back a little, but I want you to continue to do that.” You can be upfront about that. I’m not saying you have to be namby-pamby about it, but you have to realize that, as a senior person, it’s just inherently scary. It just is.
Even if you are saying, “I’m not scary and I want to hear it.” From a power authority level, it’s hard for people. And appreciating that, I think, is super important. Now, I know other folks on the other side where people are so comfortable with them, they’re coming to them all the time and telling them whatever, and then they have a different problem, they’re like, “Wait a second. What do I really need to know here, right?” And so, I mean, you got both sides of that coin.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Anything else?
Molly Tschang
Well, I think there’s a lot of feedback scenarios, and this is the one I alluded to earlier that I just want people to realize, like, “Molly doesn’t get better unless people feel comfortable helping me get better.” Someone else doesn’t get better unless we help them. So, we need each other on the team to be able to grow and to get better. So that’s normal.
And I want people to feel good about the fact that someone cares enough to say, “Hey. I see what you were trying to do there. I’d like to offer something that I think could be more effective. Are you open to it?” And so, I think this back and forth in a conversation is what I want to help people think about. So often, they get in and they have this piece of feedback and it’s, I’ve seen people go four minutes.
And the poor person is like, just from a fire hose, getting all this deluge of words. They don’t really even know what you’re saying. So, that ability to just take the time, to set the stage, “I’m speaking up because I think it’s something that can be helpful. I may not be 100% right, but I want to share it for your consideration.” So, you’re giving them optionality, and then roll into why you think it could be helpful.
Now, if someone, you’re in a situation where you really think they did something that didn’t work, you have to say, “Hey, you’re the boss person. I have to say, I’m calling it like I see it. I don’t think that really worked, and here’s why.” “I could be wrong about that but this is my decision.” Or, “Since I’m the leader, I can make that call.” And that’s fair.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell me, Molly, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?
Molly Tschang
Well, there’s three things, I think, that differentiate the approach that Marshall and I took to this book we wrote. And I think the first thing is we really wanted to confront a very widespread workplace blind spot. And that is that people are, in fact, not speaking up, even in the highest performing places. They have these fears or they lack the skill.
And the disconnect is the leaders actually think they’re super accessible and the employees think otherwise. And so, the ability to bubble that up is like, “Hey, folks, that is going on.” For the leaders who are like, “Oh, my people love me.” Those are like, “No, I’m not really sure that’s going on.” So, I think just being upfront that people are not speaking up as much as they could be, that’s an opportunity for everyone.
And so, the idea of this effective communication is it is a life-changing skill. Learning how and when best to use your voice benefits your relationships, your career, and every single thing that you do. Yet, of all the things we’re trained in and all this corporate training I had for three decades, it’s not something that we learned. So, I just want to encourage folks that, because it is a very personalized, individualized skill, we come from different backgrounds, different experiences, it’s really on you to figure out what words work for you.
Certain words work for Pete. He can use them. Certain words work for Molly. But for each of us, I want to encourage you to really find what works for you because, fundamentally, your communication is how other people experience you. It is you, right? So, people are, “Well, how come she doesn’t think I’m confident?” I’m like, “Well, maybe she doesn’t think you’re confident because you’re not communicating very confidently, right?” Newsflash.
And then I think the third thing I would offer is that I think a lot of personal development, the communication space is you have a certain, like, “How do you play the game? And how do I win?” And there’s nothing wrong about figuring out how you win the game. I would offer that what we’re trying to come forth with in the Say It Skillfully way is that we’re trying to help people learn how to actually change the game, Pete, so that everyone wins.
And I think when you’re actually giving people the space to be who they are, to say what they think needs to be said, and really bubble up all the different viewpoints, you have the best shot of aligning, really, on what’s real, what’s the accurate shared reality. And from that we can do our best work together.
And I really want that. I really truly want that for everyone because I didn’t speak English until I was five. I was painfully shy. Super, super unskillful. So, it’s a hundred percent a learned skill.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now let’s hear a bit about your favorite things. Could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?
Molly Tschang
Well, “To serve is to live,” Frances Hesselbein, passed at 107, says it all.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study?
Molly Tschang
I like Marcus Aurelius. So, his book of little genius wisdoms. I can’t pick one, but I think he’s amazing.
Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?
Molly Tschang
So, my friends wrote this great book on meditations, and I can’t believe I’m just spacing out. It’s by Bruce Kazanoff, and, gosh, I can’t remember the name of it. I’ll have to come back and put it up there. But it’s this tiny book of meditations.
And the reason I love it so much is the short meditations were a collaboration. And they collaborated, and they just wrote it organically, and they would send something back and forth and the whole process of that. And I did learn to meditate later in life and it has just made a huge, huge difference for me.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be honest about your job?
Molly Tschang
I have to just say that this little Yeti Nano microphone so that I can be heard more clearly has been a game changer.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with clients, they quote it back to you often?
Molly Tschang
“Transparency is your friend.”
Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?
Molly Tschang
SayItSkillfully.com.
Pete Mockaitis
Okay.
Molly Tschang
And one resource I want to gift to all of your subscribers, Pete, is my mini audio book The Me-You-We Framework. And this is the way to skillful conversation that anyone can apply regardless of your level, industry, job. So we’ll give the download link in the podcast, but I really encourage folks to check it out, to start your journey, and encourage others to do the same because when you say it skillfully, performance improves, and everybody wins.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?
Molly Tschang
Learning how and when best to use your voice is the number one thing you can do to succeed in life and, really, I think, bring you happiness. And so, I would encourage folks to check out all the resources and learn to speak up in a way that’s really true to yourself.
And it’s going to help you in working together, but I think really more importantly, for me, is it helps you with your most cherished relationships at home. And to feel like you’re living a life of no regrets because you’re able to put forth and say what you think serves the whole.
Pete Mockaitis
All right. Molly, thank you.
Molly Tschang
Thank you, Pete. That was super fun.