1021: How to Push Past Fear and Build Audacity with Anne Marie Anderson

Pete Mockaitis
Anne Marie, welcome!

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you, Pete. Excited to be talking with you.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to be cultivating some audacity.

Anne Marie Anderson
Darn right. It’s time, isn’t it?

Pete Mockaitis
Let us, yeah. Well, so you have won three Emmys for broadcasting. That’s pretty impressive. Kudos.

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
I imagine you had to pick up some audacity along the way. So, why don’t we kick it off by you sharing your own story of how you cultivated that?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, so audacity is the willingness to take bold risks. That’s the actual definition of it. And I don’t think I was a particularly audacious child. I was pretty skittish, introverted, and such. But certainly, when you decide to work in television, you know there’s going to be a lot of rejection. When you decide to work in sports television, you know there’s going to be a lot of questions about whether or not you really should be there.

So, I kind of started to take a note of when somebody thought I couldn’t do something and started to cultivate it. And I think it’s really important, Pete. Like, it came out of watching. I’ll be really honest, my trip for audacity began when one of my good friends, who was very young and just starting his dream job and newly married and very fit, passed away suddenly.

And I thought, “Okay, if you can be 37 and newly married and starting your dream job to have it ripped away, I’m never going to wait for anything again.” And, honestly, that’s the introduction, by the way, to the book is about that. So, people know like, I wasn’t born this way. It is something that people can absolutely cultivate and grow.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. So, then tell us, any key surprising discoveries you’ve made as you’re researching this and putting together your book? We know that it can be built. Don’t have to be born that way. That’s great. Tell us, any other surprises along the way?

Anne Marie Anderson
I think most people want to be able to do the thing, right? We’ve all got the thing that we wanted to do, whether it is professionally, personally in your relationship, moving in one direction or the other. If you’re in a poor relationship, you can leave, if you want to cultivate your job. But I think we get stuck because wanting to do it and knowing how to do it is really different.

And so, I learned that there’s three components. There’s that mindset. That’s really, Pete, just based on optimism. Like, the belief that it’s going to work out, maybe not the way you wanted, but it’ll work out. Like, you’re down by 12 at the half in a basketball game and you come out the second half because maybe, if you get your offense together, you’ll win. So, there’s that mindset component.

And I think a lot of people have that, the optimism that, “Hey, this could be good. This could really work out,” but they get stuck in the second component, which is the behavior to take action, because you can sit on your mom’s couch and be optimistic all day long and nothing is going to happen until you take an action. Or, maybe, I learned in talking to people, they’ll take one action, they’ll take an action, and then say, “Oh, it didn’t work,” because they didn’t get their desired outcome.

So, what I learned with cultivating audacity, it is the consistency of the mindset and the behavior that leads to the identity. And so, you have to keep doing it over and over. And I think people can be a little bit impatient and they say, “Well, it didn’t work out.” Well, it didn’t work out the way that you wanted, but you got information from that to go again. And that’s the thing I’ve learned. That’s where people get stuck.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that’s really handy in terms of working out can be very broad in terms of somehow it was a positive endeavor as opposed to you got the precise, narrow, exact outcome that you had hoped for and imagined. And I think that’s a really cool thing to bear in mind right there in terms of, I think about entrepreneurship in terms of things have rarely worked out, maybe never, exactly the way I hoped, planned, predicted.

And yet, that was one of reasons I love this podcast as a concept in terms of there are so many ways this can work out well. And, sure enough, things evolved differently than I expected, but it was differently and well. And when you were talking about the learning, being one of those pieces, is super handy or, you know, not to be cliche, but it’s like the real treasure that we hunted for were the friendships that we made along the way. I mean, that’s kind of corny and cheesy, but something that’s really true, it’s like, “No, you did a thing. You met some people and that was amazing. Those are transformational relationships forever.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Exactly. I think people need to recalibrate their relationship with rejection because they think rejection, fear, like it’s over as if it’s some kind of endpoint when, you know, and it took some work for me, but I really now see it all as just data. The data that drives me forward. And to your point, okay, it didn’t end the way that I hoped it would, but I did make this relationship with this person that I learned something from that I can then go in a different direction or a new tact. So, it all just became data and none of it’s the end of a sentence.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds like a pretty transformational place to get to in terms of, “Ah, rejection is no longer this horrifying sensation that is profoundly emotionally difficult,” but rather just, “Huh, how about that? Some data, some information.” How do we get there?

Anne Marie Anderson
When I’ve interviewed people, there’s four things that stand between them and the thing that they want to do. So, it’s fear, fear of embarrassment, rejection, failure, judgment, whatever it is. Time, money, and your inner critic. And I believe you have to deal with that first part, the fear, originally.

So, here’s what I tell people. Go fail. Like, legit, go fail. Because if you’re so afraid to fail, go do something and fail at it, and then see how you survived, and then go again and again. I tell people to seek out, if you have a real sensitivity to rejection, seek it out. I got to a point in my career where I would apply for jobs that there was no chance that I was going to get because I wanted to desensitize myself to rejection.

And every time that I was rejected for it, I would then say, “Yeah, that doesn’t hurt me personally anymore.” I’d ask some information and maybe I’d get a few nuggets out of it. It takes practice. It’s the consistency of getting yourself to realize that rejection, and people say, you want to talk about cliches, rejection is just redirection. It is. It really is. When you get rejected by something, you look for the next step as a branch off of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Seeking out rejections. Yes, I remember I’ve had the experience when I wrote my first book. This is old school and I didn’t really know what I was doing, but I heard you should send a one-page query letter to these publishing houses. So, I did just that. I sent over 100 of these. And it was a very steady situation, going to the mailbox, old school, getting pieces of paper day after day after day after day that said, “No, no, no, no, no.”

I found it actually very helpful for this very notion because, one, it wasn’t super high stakes because I thought, “Okay, I’ll just self-publish, so I’ve got options, you know, whatever. But it’d be kind of cool if I had a legit publisher behind me.” And, two, just to have it kind of appearing in my mailbox such that I could open them when I was ready on any given day.

It’s like, “You know what? Not today. I’m going to read these rejection letters tomorrow.” And then it’s like, “Okay. And I have a nice little pile. How much dosage do I want? You know what? I can handle all seven of these. Let’s open all seven.”

Anne Marie Anderson
That’s awesome, I love that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, it’s pretty handy. So, now, if we’re not sending letters to a bunch of people, what are your top tips for us to do some seeking out of the rejections?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, I love that you said not particularly high stakes. I’m not asking anybody, I’m not encouraging anybody, by any means, to go quit your job and see how it goes. I’m asking for risks that are worth it versus reckless. So, as you’re starting to figure out rejections, you need to get comfortable with saying no, seeing how things turn out from there, because no is a complete sentence, right?

Like, “Can you come help with the yearbook for your kid’s school?” “No,” and then you don’t have to finish that sentence. So, I think there’s this sitting in uncomfortable no first, because we tend to over explain. And then realizing that that goes both ways. And that if you’re asking a question for somebody, asking a favor, asking if they will publish your book, asking anything, and they say no, you need to then start to get curious about it and not insulted by it.

I started to poke around in how I felt, like physically in my body, what I was thinking, what my inner critic was saying to me when I would get a rejection. Curiosity helps you so much take the emotion out of things. Some things, like if you’re sending letters to a hundred publishers, as you’re talking about, you don’t need to explore the no any further. I then congratulate you for asking and asking and asking because that’s a perfect way to desensitize yourself.

But it starts with a little action at first, maybe it’s you saying no to somebody else, seeing how that feels, and then when you get rejected, get curious. Okay, do you feel that in your heart? Do you feel that in your head? Does it mean that you’re less than? What’s your inner critic telling you about that rejection? There’s lots of ways that you can kind of dive in instead of pushing it away.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that curious piece. And we had Dr. Judson Brewer on the show, and his book Unwinding Anxiety, he had a great tip to get curious. Actually, say out loud, “Hmm.” And that kind of in your body, just kind of make some things happen with regard to shifting into a curious zone. And then I like what you’re saying there with regard to specific bodily sensations and specific inputs. So, let’s just go super deep on this.

Anne Marie Anderson
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
If, let’s say you’re noticing something, I am noticing, maybe, in my body, I’m feeling, “Oh, boy, my heart starts thumping. It’s kind of faster and heavier. I feel a heat rising and it’s particularly on my neck.” And I’m thinking things like, “Ugh, I’m such an idiot. That was so stupid. This is never going to work.” So, let’s just say, okay, we got curious, we identified some things, now what?

Anne Marie Anderson
First of all, the question I would always ask, and it’s so basic, but, like, would you tell somebody else, “That’s so stupid. It’s not going to work”? Of course, you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t just say to your friend, “I’m so stupid. It was never going to work.” So, I recommend separating that voice from yourself. Because if that’s not the way you talk, then that’s not you talking to yourself that way.

The way you separate it from yourself is you give it a name. And it’s so basic, I realized, Pete, but I even learned this with my 12-year-old daughter, because I picked her up from school and I said, “How’s it going?” And she said, “I’m stupid. I can’t do math. And, oh, by the way, I’m fat.” And I was like, “Yo, that’s a lot to take in from a 12-year-old all at once.”

And so, when we unpacked that a little bit, and said, “You wouldn’t say that to somebody else. Give it a name.” I said, “What name do you want to pick?” And she said, “Jerry.” And so, I said, “Okay.” So, every time I hear her go, “Ugh, I can’t do this,” you know, I said to her, “What do you want? What would you say to Jerry if Jerry was an outside person saying it?” She goes, “I’d say, ‘Shut up, Jerry.’

And so, when I hear her get so frustrated, I’ll yell from my office or wherever, “Shut up, Jerry,” and she’ll be like, “Ugh, frustrating,” but it takes the awareness out of it that you’re being super unkind to yourself. So, that’s part one in terms of the actual inner voice. That’s not the truth. That’s not facts. That’s just a thought. And you have control of your thoughts. So, you can tell your Jerry to back off and shut up.

And then you sit with the feelings and you explore those with, “Okay, is it like when I get red or something, when I feel that flush here?” that might be embarrassment or fear of being exposed for not being really good at whatever it is I’m trying to do. Or, it might be fear of judgment because I’m worried what somebody else is going to think.

And that’s a great one to dive into because somebody else thinking it, “Are they doing what you want to do? Or are they just judging you? Or are you perceiving that they’re going to judge you?” So, kind of separating the thought first and then trying to pinpoint the emotion and where it fits specifically into what your heart rate is telling you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, let’s walk it all the way through then, and say, “Yes, that is the thing. I am concerned that someone else is going to think I’m dumb. I’m not good. I’m bad at this. I’m an imposter.” What’d I do with that?

Anne Marie Anderson
So, if someone thinks that of you, then what happens? Like, okay, so they think that of you, what’s the next thing? I walk through this sometimes with my coaching clients where I had one that was going on television, and she was absolutely terrified. And I kept saying to her, “Okay, and then what? And then what?” as she’s about to go on the air, we’re talking. She said, “Oh, I think I might pass out.”

And I said, “Okay, so you’re laying on the ground, a microphone in your hand, you’ve passed out, and then what happens?” And she’s like, “Well, obviously, that’s not going to happen.” I’m like, “Okay, so we’ve reached the point of where we’ve gotten to massive catastrophization where it’s not reasonable that that’s going to happen.” So, in your case, okay, they think I’m bad. I’m exposed as not being good at my job in their eyes. Okay, and then what?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you know what’s so funny is I’ve done this with myself with regard to, I think I was entering into a negotiation and I had to be more assertive than normal. Because, usually, I’m super friendly, collaborative. But at this time, I was like, “You know, if push really came to shove, I’m okay completely torching this relationship to get what I want.”

And that’s almost never true of me. And I’m not going to be like evil, right? But if I have to choose between the two, it’s like, “I 100 % want the outcome over the relationship here,” which is so out of character for me. I was challenging myself, it’s like, “So, what if this guy thinks that I’m a total jerk, that he hates doing business with me, and doesn’t want to do business?”

And I thought, “I guess the worst-case scenario would be anytime he hears my name in any context, he screams at the top of his lungs, ‘I hate that F-er.’” And I was like, “You know what? I’m still okay with that.”

Anne Marie Anderson
“I can live with that.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m still okay with the trade here, given the stakes versus the relationship.” But because it was so new, and I am a bit of a people pleaser, it was challenging for me, and it worked out fine. We have a fine relationship and the negotiated outcome is okay.

Anne Marie Anderson
But that leads right to what we talked about, Pete, right, is that it wasn’t the outcome you wanted and you survived, originally. So, the more people get used to doing that, to saying, “Okay, this person may think I’m exposed,” and you keep going anyway, the less sensitive you become and the less vulnerable to peeling back yourself in order to please other people.

My friend, Laura Gassner-Otting, always says, “Why give a vote to anybody who shouldn’t even have a voice?” If they’re not going where you’re going, or if they haven’t been there, right, they may not get a vote. If you’re asking them for a job, sure, they can get a vote, but they’re not necessarily going to be able to have that voice in your head afterwards. They can say no, but you don’t have to believe if they say you’re horrible and you’re never going to work in this business again. That’s choice.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, and I think the “and then what” is so handy because it unmasks the, I guess, like The Wizard of Oz or The Emperor Has No Clothes. It’s like, “Okay, so you’ve imagined this horrifying scenario, it feels really bad, but the objective reality is not so heinous.” It’s like, okay, some of your opportunities might be limited because of that person’s sphere of influence. Okay, that’s kind of inconvenient, but like you’re not dead, hospitalized, bankrupt. You’re still in pretty great shape.

Anne Marie Anderson
No, catastrophization is an incredible tool. I’ll tell you this, I’m a sports broadcaster, as you mentioned, I’ve worked for ESPN and other networks for 35 years. So, my first time on live television, because I was a producer first, was in 78 million homes. It wasn’t supposed to be that way. My very first time, I was supposed to be on a little network, things got shuffled around, I was a pretty accomplished producer. So, I was petrified outside the stadium, college football opening weekend, on ESPN too.

And my then husband said, “What’s the worst that can happen?” And I was like, “Buddy, if you want to know what the worst that can happen is, let me tell you.” I was like, “I could be so bad at this job that not only will I never get asked to be on air again, but I’ll never be asked to produce again because the people I produce for will know I can’t do their job. And I could lose my entire career over this for being so bad on air.”

“And if I lose my entire television career, I will be so miserable and you will have no choice but to leave me because I won’t be able to be a good mother to our children who aren’t even born yet and I could die destitute and alone.” And he was like, “Wow.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Anne Marie, you’re a champion at this.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah. I say take it all the way to destitute and alone because obviously that’s not going to happen. And anything short of that becomes a success. So, catastrophize, it’s a great tool because you’ll see how just ridiculous your mind, ridiculous places your mind can take you.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. So, thank you. All right. So, we went through the whole arc there associated with we got some fear, we sought out some rejection, we felt some rejection, we explored it and then we got to the other side. Cool. Any other pro tips, do’s or don’ts in that department?

Anne Marie Anderson
Do the thing that scares you the most first. So, go for the biggest job first, the biggest change. Now understand, Pete, I do want to be clear about this because sometimes the change you’re looking for, let’s say you’re in an unhealthy relationship and you need to change that, and you’ve got some fear around leaving that person. I’m not asking you to, Devil’s care, just throw it out.

There are some systems where you can build… an important part of this as your front row, the people who are going to cheer you on and challenge you and lift you up. I think it’s really important when you’re going through this facing fear that you have carefully curated what I call the front row. And that front row may not be your best friend. It may not be your mom because they want you to keep you safe.

The front row will be people that will challenge you, help you. If it’s leaving a relationship, it may be somebody who’s helping you in terms of an attorney or somebody more skilled or somebody who’s been through it. So, your front row isn’t just your buddies. It’s people who know where you’re going or have already been where you’re going.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, certainly. So, having support makes all the difference, and to be thoughtful about not just friends and family, but those who have expertise, they know the way and care about your flourishing as opposed to just your safety. But you’ve great point about parents. Sometimes that’s how that goes.

Anne Marie Anderson
Right. And tell them, tell them they’re in your front row. We use that phrase. And it’s basically where you’ll be, “Here’s a thing I want to do. And I’m a little bit scared of it. And I’m worried that I don’t have whatever, the qualifications, the funds, the time, whatever it is. And I’m wondering if you would take a seat in my front row to help me get from here to there.”

And sometimes that’s a shoulder to cry on. It can be anything, but when you make people aware that you have selected them to be in your front row, they then play a more active role in your search for the next big thing.

Pete Mockaitis
And I like the visual as well because it’s fun and it’s not a super high level of commitment in terms of forever or, it’s like, “Will you be my mentors?” Like, “Okay, what are we talking about here? This sounds maybe big.” But front row is like, “Okay, you’re a person who’s providing some level of support over the course of this particular mission, quest, journey, transition. And then that’s fun.

I mean, in terms of you get to bask in the glory as a front row attendee, even if all you did was make an introduction. And then it’s like, “Hey, I got to be part of that. And by being invited into the front row, I feel like I had even more of a role. It’s like it’s elevated what I did beyond the 20 minutes of effort that I did it, you know?”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yep, yep. And it’s a witness too. It’s a witness. If things don’t work out the way that you want, here’s your friend in your front row, your colleague, somebody who’s, maybe you don’t even know them personally, maybe it’s an author and you’re trying to write a book and this person is helping you out, but you’ve got somebody to help you with perspective. And I think that’s a critical component of the front row. And it’s an honorary place.

And by the way, don’t be afraid to pull somebody out of your front row if you discover that they have a jealousy, competition, those kinds of things. I love that you said, like, it’s not a lifetime appointment, the front row. It can be ever changing and you can use it. I have a fitness front row and if I don’t show up at the gym, my phone starts blowing up, “Hey, where are you?” I’ve got a television front row, a personal relationship front row. There’s some overlap, but there’s some people that are just in one category.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. And you recommend just actually using that language and telling them what you mean by it?

Anne Marie Anderson
I do. I do because it creates an awareness and an intention, and kind of what you were alluding to. It’s a place of pride for them that they might take it a little more seriously their role in supporting you because they’ve been offered a job. How are they supposed to know otherwise? So, when you tell them, “Hey, I’m going to do this. I’m worried about it. So, I need your support and that would mean a lot to me.” Great things happen in those kinds of groups.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, we talked about four things getting in the way: fear, time, money, inner critic. And it sounds like fear and inner critic have a lot of overlap. Is there any distinction you would suggest or anything special we should do about the inner critic that’s different than what we’re doing for fear?

Anne Marie Anderson
Well, naming it really is the big thing, as we talked about, and that connects with your fear. And then some people will talk to your inner critic and they’ll say, like, “I get it. You’re always going to be there.” You know, I think it was Glennon Doyle who wrote in her book, like it’s “A passenger in the car, but you’re absolutely not allowed to drive. You’re not allowed to play with the radio, but it’s fine. I acknowledge that you’re going to come along.”

I think so much of what we do is try to push it away, and I say, “Well, what if you let that in? What if you let your inner critic really talk to you so that you can become aware of it, and be like, ‘Yeah, no, that’s not helpful’?” Some people have a mantra. One of my friends, who is a keynote speaker, is still very nervous.

And so, she created, she always looks at the joint between the ceiling and the wall, the back wall of the room, and she will repeat to herself a mantra to push her inner critic out by saying “Where the floor hits the ceiling is a wonderful feeling.” That’s my friend, Missy West, uses that. Creating something to shake you out of spiraling with your inner critic, whether it’s a name, a mantra, because you can only have one thought in your mind at a time. So, that’s helpful to push your inner critic out of your head at that moment.

Pete Mockaitis
And does the inner critic have some value? Like, I think of the inner critic sometimes as like the part of you that wants to keep you stuck but in a of a safe sort of a way. Is it just the utter destructiveness that needs to be abolished? Or is there a means of engaging in conversation with the inner critic to surface the goodness while leaving out the badness?

Anne Marie Anderson
Perfection, Pete. Like, you totally get it. Think of it like this. Your ego or your id comes up with this crazy idea, like, “We should do this. That would be amazing.” And your super ego, in this case, I’d call that the inner critic, saying, “That’s too dangerous. That’s too scary. That’s too risky,” whatever it is, and your ego is trying to find a way to get you there safely. So, that’s why I say the curiosity about what the inner critic is saying because maybe there’s a nugget of truth in there.

Maybe it’s raising some questions about safety, not about “You suck,” but about safety and things where you can go back and examine it. Okay, your inner critic is saying, “You don’t have the money to be able to do this crazy thing.” Okay, that’s when you have that conversation with your inner critic, “Tell me more about that. I don’t have the money there. Okay, well, how can I get to a place where I have the money? Well, do I really need that much money to take step one?”

Maybe you do, but that’s where I think your inner critic can help you, but your inner critic is never the one that makes the decision. Never. They can raise questions for you, but they are never the one who’s going to say, or you should allow to say, “You suck. This is not for you. Don’t do it.” They’re just somebody to raise questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. They provide input. They’re advisor, not the decider. Lovely. Thank you. Well, can you tell us a cool story about someone who internalized some of these principles, concepts, and then cultivated tremendous audacity, where before they had little, and great things happened?

Anne Marie Anderson
What comes to my mind first was a friend of mine who wanted to get his real estate license. He was working in a store and not doing very well and not happy and he has two kids. So, he wanted to create more income, wanted his real estate license, but wasn’t taking the test. And I finally said, like, “What’s the issue?” And he said, “I can’t find enough time to study for the test, and so I’m afraid I’m going to fail it.”

And I said, “Okay, a test is $60. There’s no limit on how many times you can take it.” So, I told him to go take the test and fail it. And he’s like, “On purpose?” And I said, “Well, not on purpose, but you’ve told me you’re not going to pass. So, let’s get the fear of failing the test out of the way.” Spent $60, he went, he failed the test.

“Okay, next thing, let’s talk about time.” We have a tendency to prioritize things that are urgent over what’s important, because your whole day is urgent, constantly, every email, every text, every phone call, you got to take care of the kids and make food and do all the other things, and carving out time that’s important. So, with my help, he and his wife sat down and said, “Where can I get an hour a day without leaving you hanging with the young kids?” He has two young kids.

And so, they decided a half hour in the morning, she was going to handle breakfast and all that. And then a half hour in the evening, he would help get the kids to the bath, and then he would lock himself away for a half hour. She’d take on the bath and he would be out for book and bed. And once they had that rhythm where they worked to the problem, there’s the two problems, right, fear that you’re going to fail, so he did that. Okay, survived.

Then no time to study, did that, took the test again, failed again, but that time it didn’t crush him because he had a system and was like, “Okay, I just need to keep going with our plan and studying.” He ended up absolutely passing that, quit the other job and is doing extremely well financially now because he took the leap, he had his front row set, his wife was in his front row saying, “I got you during this. I can create some space for you.” And he faced his fear and addressed his time concerns.

Pete Mockaitis
But my favorite part of this story is that, as you’re crafting this plan, it’s like, “Okay, so step one, step two, step three. Step one, go fail.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah. Right? But do!

Pete Mockaitis
Like, that’s in the design of the blueprint that you’re using. And I think that is a liberating idea that could be great for many plans we might make for ourselves, “All right, step one, go fail at it. All right, now that’s over, what’s step two?”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, you’ve survived it. Because I think a lot of people see failure as like the end, like a period at the end of the sentence. It’s a comma, I promise you. Rejection, it’s a comma and it moves you on. So, if that’s what’s paralyzing you, go fail first, survive it and then get to work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, tell me, Anne Marie, anything else you want to make sure to really mention or cover any top do’s or don’ts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Anne Marie Anderson
I would encourage people to look at the urgency fallacy. That’s one other component that I think a lot of people get stuck we hide between, and I’m guilty of this too. If I have something big to do that I don’t want to do or even like expense reports that I don’t want to do, I’ll have the cleanest house in the world because I don’t want to do that thing, and so I will do anything else to avoid it.

And so, the urgency fallacy is when you take a break on what’s urgent, because anything urgent can wait 15 minutes, I promise you. Not an emergency, your kid’s not bleeding on the floor, but something that people think are urgent, returning an email, and work towards what’s important. And if that’s you starting a business, that’s you sending some notes right at that moment. If that is you looking at your finances and deciding where you can make some trims, that’s that moment.

I encourage people four times a day, carve out 15-minute blocks, unless you’ve got an hour a day, but most people don’t have one straight hour a day where everything goes off. And, you know, I tell you what, my kids, Pete, when they said like, “I’m hungry,” I would go, “Same.” I got teenagers, they can make their own food. They get really frustrated when they hear me say, “Yeah, same buddy, I’m hungry. Anyway, I’m going in to do what’s important now for 15 minutes.”

So, I think that’s a really important component. Stop putting everything and everyone else first if going to do the thing, whatever audacious, is going to make your life better, your family’s life better, prioritize important.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Anne Marie, I love that so much. Because we’ve heard Eisenhower matrix, Stephen Covey, you know, urgent-importance, two-by-two matrix, yada, yada. But what you’re bringing to this, which I find very intriguing is, one, urgency kind of has a grip on us. And what you’re suggesting is to proactively break its command by doing these 15-minute bits, which is great because, one, we may have some resistance, especially with important things, because important things can feel hard. They often are.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
And that’s why they’re not already done is because they’re hard, but have high value. And so, it could feel like you don’t have the mental space. It’s like, “I want to really make sure I tackle that when I have a whole afternoon available.” And you say, “No, no, no, that may never happen. And you’re going to remain in the grips of urgency if you play that game.” So, to make it a habit of “I’m taking these 15 minutes.”

And, in a way, it’s so defiant in terms of, like, the inner personal power that that’s generating for you with regard to, “Yes, I see that urgency. I’m feeling the tug of it. And I’m now conscientiously turning away from it to do this other thing. And my children will whine about being hungry for 15 minutes, and they’re okay. And I am better off, well, actually we’re all better off for having put that 15 minutes in there.”

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, the big difference is in people identifying what’s really urgent and what’s important. Things that are urgent have an impending deadline. They can usually be accomplished pretty quickly and without a lot of deep thought. If you’re answering an email really quickly or a text or making dinner, whatever it is, that qualifies as urgent in my book. Things that are important don’t necessarily have an impending deadline, exactly as you said, like, “When I have a whole afternoon, then I’ll do it.”

But there are consequences if you don’t get it done, meaning you won’t move closer to your values and vision and who you want to be. So, they do take more effort, more thought, but they move you closer to where you want to be. And the 15 minutes, people can do it however they want.

I’ve had some people who like to do 20-minute blocks. The real estate agent I told you about, he did two half-hour blocks, but they’re intentional blocks. And I think intentional is exactly the right word that separates just living your life and living it with this prioritization.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you found inspiring?

Anne Marie Anderson
My mother has always said, “This, too, shall pass,” and it made me nuts in my entire life. But what I realized is not just the discomfort will pass or the failure or the bad situation, but the good times too. They’ll pass, the great calm. And then there’ll be another storm that comes up.

And so, when I’m in a really good space, I remind myself, “Just enjoy this. Don’t be thinking so far ahead. We don’t know what that looks like.” And eventually there’ll be more problems that come up. So, enjoy the space you’re in. If you’re in an uncomfortable space, know that it will pass again. I live near the ocean. I just think of the waves coming.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Anne Marie Anderson
I like the studies about men traditionally applying for jobs when they have less credentials than a woman will apply. Women liking to wait until they’ve got all the credentials. And people think, “Oh, it’s women breaking the glass ceiling.” It’s really about a sticky floor. And as women, we need to jump earlier and risk earlier.

If a man applies for a job at 50 % and doesn’t get it, he’s got some information and some data. If he goes back at 65 and doesn’t get it again, now he’s been in front of that person hiring twice. And if he goes back at 85% and the female goes at 85%, well, he’s got a leg up because they’ve watched him add to his skillset and grow. And so, I like those studies because I think we can reverse those numbers with a little bit of audacity.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Anne Marie Anderson
Right now, I’m going to say Good Awkward by Henna Pryor.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Anne Marie Anderson
I have a large, it’s not on my desk right now, a large one-hour time. What do we call that thing? It’s escaping me.

Pete Mockaitis
Hourglass?

Anne Marie Anderson
Yes, an hourglass. Thank you. Not a hard word, but, anyway. And I put, sorry, it’s 30 minutes. And I turn that over on my desk to remind myself. I like to work, just in general, in 30-minute blocks and then I’ll get up for five minutes, move around, do something in the kitchen and then sit down and turn it back over again. It helps me feel like it’s not going to be endless, an endless day for me if I know that every 30 minutes I get to get up for five.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often.

Anne Marie Anderson
Yeah, the front row. People really attach to that front row concept and it works. It works. And I had somebody who heard me at a talk and she approached me afterwards, and said, “You know, I want to be…” it was an educational keynote. And she said, “I really want to be an assistant principal. I have been a teacher for 28 years.” And then she casually mentioned her principal was there. And I said, “Well, did you tell him what you want?” She said, “No, but I will.” And I was like, “Yeah, today’s the day. Unfortunately, you have me right here. So, today’s the day.”

And after much cajoling, she went up to him and said, “Here’s something I’d like to do. Will you be in my front row?” And he had heard my talk, so he knew the verbiage. And six weeks later, I got a note from her, I swear to you, and she said, “I start my new job tomorrow as assistant principal at this school. Thanks so much.” And so, the front row works.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Anne Marie Anderson
To my website, AnneMarieAnderson.com. And, of course, I’m on social as well. You can find me at CultivatingAudacity.com, or Anne Marie Anderson TV.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Anne Marie Anderson
If you want to be awesome at your job, ask yourself what you can do that nobody is asking you to do. How can you be a better teammate to your co-workers and not shining the light on yourself? Teams make the world go around. So, you want to be awesome at your job? Elevate your co-workers, help them shine, take something off their plate.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Anne Marie, this is fun. Thank you. I wish you much audacity.

Anne Marie Anderson
Thank you very much. I wish you a lot of audacity too, Pete. Thanks for having me on.