KF #26. Being Resilient Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Dr. Koretz, welcome.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Thank you. So happy to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be discussing these very important matters. And I’d love it if you could kick us off with a particularly surprising or novel discovery you’ve made about us folks and high-pressure careers and mental health things. What’s something you know that many of us don’t?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Wow, there’s so many to choose from. Well, I think a lot of people on a smaller level don’t realize how capable they are, and how resilient they are, and how much they’re doing despite all of the struggles that they have. I think people really feel the loss. They feel the pain of their emotional burdens. They feel the stress of work. They feel the burnout, but they don’t see it in the background, like, the rest of it, and all the things that they’re doing despite that. They’re only feeling sort of the loss. I think that’s also really important to keep in mind for everybody, is there’s so much and so many strengths and so much to be to be offered.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, how capable are we?

Dr. Janna Koretz
You guys are so capable. I mean, it’s unbelievable, really, and I mean, I think a lot of people who are in high-pressure careers are high achievers and they sort of assume that everyone can do what they’re doing and everyone is doing it better, and they need to strive to be better and the best, and give more but they don’t see how much they’ve already done.

Most people can’t do, with the clients that we see, most people can’t do a lot of that. It takes a lot, a lot of mental effort, a lot of smarts, a lot of emotional energy. So, you’re very capable, from what we see. Most capable.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, it’s funny, what you’re saying sounds very true, and it also sounds very easy to dismiss and to shoo away, and instead of allowing to truly sink in and allow the good mental health vibes that it can deliver to us be delivered. Is that fair to say? How do people respond when you share this truth with them?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Oh, absolutely, that’s true. It’s so dismissed. It can be so easily dismissed, partly because people, A, are not used to receiving compliments, because the way in which our culture works now is we’re always looking for what’s wrong, and no one’s saying, “Great job,” or things like that, especially in the workplace, especially in a fast-paced workplace, so I think that’s part of it.

And I think that people often feel awkward about that because it’s so dissonant to what they believe that they kind of brush it off because it just doesn’t really serve them in the moment, when, really, it serves them in the long term.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if we do want to sort of brush that aside, like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, sure. You know, yeah, I guess I got some good grades, and I got some lucky breaks, and, yeah, I guess it worked out, so, okay. I’m here. And, yeah, okay, fair enough. I guess maybe, statistically, you know, the majority of people couldn’t. exactly pull off what I’ve pulled off, so fair enough. But, I mean, you know what, there’s millions of people just like me, so like, is it really that special?”

Dr. Janna Koretz
Are you really that special? Interesting question. Well, think about it this way, so it’s not really about being special. It’s about having a great capability and applying that in a way that’s useful to you. And so, a lot of people have kind of gone through life and checked all the boxes, that whatever they’re supposed to do, the expectations they were supposed to meet, they’re kind of on this treadmill and they’re not necessarily thinking about it, but that’s a lot of effort and a lot of work.

And so, if you find yourself in a place where you’re burnt out, yes, you need to get away from the burnout to have access to those resources, but these people are very capable. You’re a very capable person. If you use that energy and direct it towards what’s helpful to you and figure out what that is, then that’s the dream, right?

And I had a client once who was like, “You know, my boyfriend says it’s kind of, like, people who do, like, these complicated scams, right? It’s like these really complicated scams, and if only they could apply that to curing cancer, wouldn’t that be cool?” You know, like that’s so much effort and it’s smart in some ways, right?” They’re getting around all these things, they’re using AI, I mean, just not for good, but if you could harness that and apply it somewhere else, that would be pretty great.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, when you say the power, you mean our own capability to dream, to imagine, to figure out, to come to believe things, is that what you mean by the capabilities and the scams?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I mean, partly. I mean, certainly the internal piece, but also just the work, the actual energy, and the mental effort, and the multitasking that people do on a daily basis, I mean, just the inside and the output too, is a lot, and it could be directed in a lot of different ways.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose what I’m really driving at is, if it is a master key to understand and believe that we have vast capabilities, and it feels like it is, is that your assertion as well?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think it’s an important thing to acknowledge for a lot of reasons, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if that’s one key factor, but we’re quick to brush it off and to not allow it to sink in and enrich us, do you have any pro tips on how we can get there? Because what I’m thinking about is, if I truly believe, in deep down in my heart of hearts, that I have vast stores of capability, not that I’m sort of omniscient or the most brilliant person who ever lived, but vast stores of capability, then it would seem like it would naturally follow that a sense of peace could emerge, and think, “Hey, you know what, wow, yeah, there’s a lot of challenges out there, but they are ultimately figure-out-able because I’m pretty good at figuring things out and handling the things that life throws my way.”

So, that seems to me very, very powerful to have that as an interior, internal mental health asset. But if we shoo it away, we don’t have it, and that’s sad. How can we get it?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, the first question I always ask is, “Why? Why can’t you access that? Why don’t you believe that? What is hard about that?” And that’s the whole, you know, we do spend a lot of time in therapy doing that, so that’s not a simple question.

But also, I mean, a lot of people’s inability to  appreciate, and believe in themselves and their capabilities is because they don’t have a grounded sense of who they are, and they don’t have a grounded sense of their identity anymore, or their identity is like wrapped up in one thing, work, motherhood, something like that, and people lose themselves so that they don’t feel steady in saying, “Yeah, I do have these abilities and capabilities because I just don’t feel like I do those things anymore. Or I just do them ad nauseam so it just feels like everybody has them.” So, I think a lot of it has to do with really finding your identity again and really knowing who you are.

Pete Mockaitis
Working with a lot of folks in high-pressure careers, what are some of the themes or patterns you see over and over and over again with regard to their mental health that we should be clued into and aware of?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, I think career enmeshment for our people is huge, which is just their whole identity is wrapped up in their career. And so, inevitably, when something happens at work, like they don’t miss a promotion, their company gets acquired, they get laid off and things like that, they don’t have any part of themselves to fall back on, and you’re made very uncomfortable by that because it brings up a lot of existential questions, like, “Who am I? What was the point of that? What am I even doing here?” And people can get really upset about that and kind of fall into more of an anxiety, have a lot of anxiety, depression, start using substances and things like that. That’s a really big one.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, our identity is wrapped up in our career. I’m reminded of a couple of things here. One is, personally, I remember once, I, in fact, got a mediocre review, mediocre-to-bad, at work, and I was so surprised and stunned and puzzled. And I remember, I actually said out loud “This doesn’t feel like who I am.” And I later reflected, I was like, “What an interesting reaction because, of course, it’s not who I am! It was one review.”

Dr. Janna Koretz
That’s what I mean, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
One review. But there it is, and then I’m also thinking about, I think it was Ronda Rousey, the fighter, was interviewed, and she was very emotional and powerful. She was crying because she lost a huge match or championship, and she said something like, “If I’m not a champion then who am I?” And I was like, “Oh, man, Ronda, I think I’m picking up what you’re putting down there from that experience I had previously.” So, that’s kind of what it sounds like what career enmeshment might look, sound, feel like, these kinds of reactions to normal career hiccups and setbacks that happen to us all.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yeah, I mean, she said it perfectly. And I think it can apply to other things, too. Like, one metaphor we use a lot, is, for parents, in general, but there’s a lot of talk about motherhood and loss of identity because you’re all consumed into this one thing. And that can be applied, being enmeshed in anything or with anyone is totally possible.

So, it happens a lot in the workplace, and we see it a lot too with our clients who used to be athletes and they spent a really long time, like all of their time really perfecting their craft, getting really good, maybe they’ve made it, you know, they’re doing Olympic trials, they’re doing all sorts of stuff, and then they get injured. And then what, right? Sounds of like Ronda was saying, “Then what? What do I have? Who am I?”

And what we see a lot, too, is because people have spent coming up so much time with that from an early age, sports is a great example, but it could be anything. You spend a lot of time through your childhood playing, I always use soccer as an example, but it could be anything, that you’re missing out on critical developmental periods where you’re supposed to be doing other things, like learning social skills with friends, like the nuances of social skills, or taking small risks to learn about your independence and confidence, learning how to make choices, things like that.

And so, because you’re siloed into this one thing in a very sort of constructed environment with rules, and so within that context, people can get creative and learn those things but the world is a much bigger place. So, then you find yourself in a place where you don’t have that anymore, and you don’t feel prepared or equipped to navigate what’s in front of you because you haven’t had the practice that a lot of people have had to figure that out. And that sort of adds on to the burden of, like, “Who am I? What am I doing?” because it makes people flounder a little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, if some folks are nodding their heads, like, “Oh, my gosh, yes, that’s me,” what do we do about it?

Dr. Janna Koretz
What a big question. I love coming on podcasts because people ask these big questions and they’re so complicated, but we start out a lot of times working with doing values-based work, like what is actually important to you, because, oftentimes, we don’t live in a culture that promotes that. I mean, certainly, when I grew up nobody asked me what was important to me. I was just expected by my family and the culture that I was in to do certain things and be certain ways and achieve certain stuff. And I did it because I didn’t think much about it.

And then as I got older and life happens to you and stuff, whatever, you just get wiser with age, I started to realize that what I was doing wasn’t actually what would make me happy. And what does make me happy? And it took me a long time to figure that out, and that’s what we do a lot with our clients, “What is it that makes you happy? How far are you from that? And how do you start to incrementally get to that place or add that into your life?”

Because, I mean, most people, right, can’t just quit their job, or they can’t just move to wherever. I think there’s this idea of, you know, one of the exercises we do is, without any constraints, what would your life look like? And people have, like, things that are very far often from what they are, where they are, and they think they just have to go to that place, but, really, that’s not reality. Reality is still important, too.

But we can slowly start to figure out how to turn in that direction, how to enter into that lane, and if we can get there, great, but what if we could get 70% there? That’s still much better than 0%. So, it’s kind of, like, working in that gray area. But I think values-based work is the crux of so many things.

Pete Mockaitis
That makes sense. When you say values work, I’m thinking we had Dr. Steven Hayes on the show.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yes. Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And, in his book, the phrase “values work” comes up many a time. So, when you say values-based work or values work, what does that mean and how does one do it?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, I have to give a plug for him because he is the nicest person of all time.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, my gosh, yes.

Dr. Janna Koretz
And his work is incredible, and what he spent his life doing is incredible for all of the ACT workbooks and the books that come with that. I mean, it’s really changed the face of therapy, and he is just a delightful person. So, we talk about him a lot and I do send people to some of his literature and his workbooks because they’re so accessible and they’re so true, of sitting down and doing those exercises. I mean, that would be a more formal way of how we would start that.

You can just put some of the sort of self-reflecting questions we can talk about, like the ones I just talked about, “What would your life look like without this? Who do I admire? Why do I admire them? What about that makes me want to be that way?” There are a lot of like sorts of questions you can ask yourself that start to help people think about things in that way, or you can do more formalized values-based work through ACT, which I recommend to people all the time. I love it. I think it’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are great questions. And can you lay a few more of those on us?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Okay, let’s see. What do you admire? What would you do if someone gave you $40 million? How would you spend it?

Pete Mockaitis
I love the specific figure there.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, it has to be so big that, whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s not billions. It’s not one million. It’s ample. It’s not yacht money, but, well, it could be, I guess. But it’s like retirement plus, plus, money.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Right. Right. Because, like, billions, it’s like then you’re going to space and that’s not the sphere that we’re talking about. We’re going to bring it down a little bit, but there can’t be any restraint. So, that’s one we do a lot. I also like to talk about, like, “Who are your favorite people to spend time with?” And another one we talk a lot about is “If you could spend more time with your family, why or why would you not do that?” And so, those are some other questions to kind of start thinking about “What is important? And what do I value? And how do I want to go about that, like incorporating that into my life?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And we’ve had some guests who talk a little bit about values as sort of a thing almost to be discovered and codified, like joy and discovery. And so, that’s one way we could think about values. Or do you have a recommendation on a codification or documentation or ratification or a writing it down official thing associated with the outcome of this values exploration?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I love that you asked that because it’s so relevant to a project that I’ve been working on. So, on our website, we sort of changed Shalom Schwartz’s values navigator a little bit to fit our clientele a little bit more, but his work is really great, and that kind of goes through, it’s just a little quiz. It’s actually one of the most popular pages on our website. People, thousands of people do it a day, so I think, I think there is something in there that people really feel connected to, and that kind of puts you into some categories.

And what we are doing actually is we are coming, it’s all beta, public beta should be out in a couple of weeks, but private beta is being sorted now. It’s a values-based journaling app called Clearly, and that is a way in which we have people, like, journal and see how in line they are with their values. And we also are incorporating prompts from various people, like myself or other experts in various industries, to kind of help people prompt them to write more about how that works and what it’s going to look like, and, “Are they living in alignment? Why are we not?” So, it’s going to be pretty neat.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. So, there are some assessments to be taken, and that’s handy. Thank you. And some journaling, and all of these is sort of, let’s see, how do I say this? Is there an end point, or is it continuous? And how do we know we’re starting to reap the benefits or rewards of the values work?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think you know when you know because you feel grounded and you feel happy. And I think that’s another thing to think about, too, and part of this conversation is “What is happiness? What does that look like? What is the expectation of happiness look like?” Because it’s not eradicating negativity or negative feelings or anything like that, or negative events. I mean, that’s impossible.

But it’s how to manage that in a way that brings the most joy to your life and living well with all these other things that are happening to you, or with you, or things like that. So, that’s what I would say about that, I guess. Does that answer the question?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a great perspective. Happiness is not eradicating all unpleasant experience. And, boy, if you make that your goal, it’s going to be a bummer.

Dr. Janna Koretz
It’s way more attainable. It’s way more attainable to know that you can’t figure out how to live, like, most of the time, pretty well with all this heavy stuff around you because that’s just what being an adult is. I’ve come to learn myself, you know, that’s just what it is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, maybe, could you share with us, perhaps, a story or two of transformation, so we can get a picture of, “Okay, I’m experiencing a career enmeshment, I have not yet done the values work, and then I do the values work, and this is what it looked like, and this is what I discovered and how I live differently”? And then what’s the sort of the happy, the before-after profiles?

Dr. Janna Koretz
So, I mean, I think running a business and being a psychologist lays the groundwork for being enmeshed in your career and kind of being on a treadmill that you know why you’re there, but it’s so easy to get caught in the weeds, like anything else that you’re intensely into. And doing what is needed to complete tasks and to achieve whatever the goal is, you have to check off some boxes, you have to jump through hoops, you have to do all these things, right, and you do become secondary.

What you want becomes secondary because you’re working on these projects that are bigger than you are. Or for a business, right, it’s like now other people rely on you to pay for stuff and support their family, right? It’s, like, that’s a really big responsibility. And, over time, even though I knew that’s what I loved, I love all of that, I love to help people, I love to run the business, I love all of that, I felt so negative to me.

I think probably, like, eight years in, I was just feeling maybe a little burnt out, but just like the joy of it had sort of passed by, and I just really wasn’t sure. It was a little confusing, to be honest. And it’s funny because we do all this work with other people, but all therapists have their own therapist because you cannot do the work by yourself. It’s impossible.

And so, through my own therapy, kind of figuring out that the things that it wasn’t that I didn’t like what I was doing anymore, it’s just that I didn’t have the other things that I was missing from previous parts of my life. So, it’s not that I didn’t want to be a psychologist anymore, I didn’t like running the business because I did. It’s just I couldn’t only do that and be a happy person. That’s just for me, that was not something that went together.

So, then, figuring out what it is that you can realistically add back in is tricky because, at the, time I had a full caseload of clients and I was running a business. Like, when exactly was I supposed to strap on my shoes and go for a run, things like that? But time can be made, and this is a strategy I tell people to do all the time, is I kind of went back to people that I had known for a long time ago and just reconnected with them.

I didn’t necessarily tell them about what was going on with me or anything, but I remember, at the time, telling my husband, “I used to be funny. I used to be a really funny person. Who remembers me when I was funny?” And kind of going back in time, and those people you’ve known from before remember those parts of you vividly, and they kind of bring that out for you, and so then you can start to remember, “Oh yeah, this does feel like me. This is kind of where I’m at.”

And it took a long time in doing that and feeling uncomfortable because I was leaving unanswered emails on my computer at 6:45 at night so I could go to the gym or something occasionally or something like that. I feel like I built out, by doing more, like, a more diverse activities and having more things in my life, I actually enjoyed all of my life more, and I really got back into the flow of the business and feeling really good about it, and things like that.

So, that’s not like a dramatic transformation in that I didn’t go from being like a sailor to running McKinsey or something like that. But I think this is the kind of transformation our clients experiences. They’re not necessarily going to quit their job and go to the Bahamas and start an ice cream shop. That’s not really even the point.

But it’s to realize what you’re missing and become whole again as a person and with your identity, and that’s what brings people joy, is like feeling good about incorporating those different pieces in.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then, could you share a little bit of some of the questions or exercises or things you did that unearthed some of these insights, like, “Hey, I used to be funny. What happened to that?” or, “Oh, shucks, I’m not exercising nearly enough as to feel great”?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think part of what I learned, too, about myself, and I think this is true for our clients also, is there’s not really a time to sit and think, period. Like, just end stop, right? It’s like, we’re kind of always driving, we’re doing laundry, we’re just doing too many things at once. And I always found that when I just did “nothing,” and was thinking, that’s actually when my best ideas would come about work or other things in my life.

But it just feels really silly to do it because you’re basically just staring into space. It doesn’t feel like it’s something that you’re allowed to do. So, yeah, I mean, honestly, right? So, I was prescribed by my own therapist to sit around and just stare into space and think about stuff, and that’s what I did. And it was so uncomfortable in the moment. Like, I hated it so much because, first, all I could do, it’s like when people start to learn to meditate, right? So, all they can think about is their laundry list of things that they’re not doing.

But over time, I got pretty good at thinking, just thinking, and using that time to figure out those bigger questions and asking myself, “Oh, I thought about that. I wonder why that happened.” I kind of had my own stream of consciousness that kind of led me there. So, I think protected thinking time is super important. It’s not like a shiny piece of advice but it’s a good one.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it’s actually fairly shiny, if I may be so bold. I’ve heard a thousand-ish guests share many nuggets. And what I love about that is it’s the distinction you drew between the thinking we’re doing, it’s even better than thinking while driving and thinking while doing the laundry. It’s completely uninterrupted.

And that’s rather, well, it sounds delightful to me, because a lot of times I think, I read these studies on, “Oh, meditation is so beneficial. I should do the meditation.” It’s like, “Okay, I guess I’ll do that because I’m supposed to because of all the rewards and the optimal benefits versus costs dah, dah, dah, dah.” And sometimes it just really hits the spot and it’s great.

But other times, it’s like, “Well, no. What I really want to do is think about anything and everything and wherever,” and, in a way, it’s like there’s a little bit of a stressor in that there’s always something happening, even if it’s low level, like taking a shower or driving. There’s always sort of something occurring.

And so, having protected thinking time is a fundamentally different practice than a mindfulness meditation, return to the breath, but it is restored. I guess there’s like a Venn diagram overlap. It has some restorative goodness the way that does, and yet it’s a distinct activity.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yes, I would agree with that. And even now I try to do that. I go into Boston, into the office, at least once a week, which is a little bit far from where I live. And I do take the train now because the walk from the train station to my office is about a half hour, and I feel bad. My dog is the therapy dog for our office and I often bring her to the office, but there are days where I don’t, and my husband’s always like, “What? Just bring the dog. Like, she’s just there. She’s a great companion.”

I’m like, “I can’t have to think about anything else during that time, or anybody else. Like, she’s going to stop, and people are going to pet her, she’s going to go to the bathroom, all this. I don’t want to listen to a podcast. I just want to be sort of, like, by myself and not have to answer to anybody, sort of.” And I love the dog and I bring her all the time but there are just some days where I feel like I know that I need that protected time, and so I don’t bring her, which makes her a little sad, which then makes me a little sad, so then we don’t do it that often but that’s how I kind of do that because anything feels like a huge interruption to me during that time now.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, for you, personally, how long are these sessions here?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, that walk is a half hour, there and back, so that’s an hour in one day, but then I won’t do it for a couple of weeks. So, Thursday or Friday is a crazy day, and then I can find some time on Saturday. So, I kind of fit it in where I can, and there are just some days where I know that it’s going to be stressful to try to find that time so I don’t do it on those days necessarily. But probably every other day, every three days, for at least like cumulatively, maybe an hour.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And I’m also thinking about, is it Bill Gates, famously, just had his think weeks, where, I don’t know if it’s annually or so, he just disappears with a bunch of books and Diet Cokes into a cabin somewhere.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yeah, he’s got like a house on an island, doesn’t he?

Pete Mockaitis
And then he’s just thinking. And so, that seemed to work out pretty well for him, and it’s working out pretty well for you. So, tell us, what sorts of, it sounds like you don’t even have an agenda by design?

Dr. Janna Koretz
No, no agenda. Can’t have an agenda.

Pete Mockaitis
No questions to be thought of. Just rolling.

Dr. Janna Koretz
I mean, every so often, like, I will think about one thing and use that time to do that, but mostly it’s just wherever the wind blows, that’s where we go. And it’s always very helpful, like I always get something out of it at the end.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have like a notebook with you?

Dr. Janna Koretz
No.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Sometimes I’ll write down the idea. Well, that’s the thing, too. I mean, not everyone operates the same. Some people might have like a recorder or like record stuff on their phone or they might take notes after or have a journal while they’re doing it. Occasionally, I’ll write something down if it’s really important, and, I don’t know, I feel like I have to write it down, but most of the time I remember those things because they kind of come to me in this aha moment, and I just don’t forget them.

Pete Mockaitis
And what I also love about that is, sometimes, I think and then I’m so excited by the thing I thought about I want to go immediately explore it, it’s like, “Ooh, let’s go see if that already exists, if that’s available, and if I could go buy it or whatever.” It’s like, “Oh, well, maybe I’ll just write that down and continue the thinking.”

Dr. Janna Koretz
Or, if you’re excited by it, then I usually write it down because, inevitably, my time is up or I’ve gotten to the office and I have other things to do. But, yeah, I mean, it’s good to come back to that stuff too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so this is fun. Thank you for indulging me with that deep dive. Let’s hear a little bit about stress in the midst of high-pressure careers. What are your top pro tips, do’s and don’ts to deal with that?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Well, my advice is never, I guess shiny is a good word, but I think people always want like this really great advice they never heard of before. And I have a little bit of that because I think we all know what we’re supposed to be doing. And this is kind of what happens to a lot of our clients when they come to our office. A lot of them have been to therapy before, and they go there and the therapist says, “Well, you need to work less. You need to eat more vegetables. You got to sleep more,” all the things.

They already know that, but they can’t do it because of all the reasons. And so, it feels a little invalidating, “If that’s the way you’re supposed to manage stress then, and I can’t do that logistically then, therefore I cannot manage stress, then my situation is hopeless.” And not to say that other therapists are bad or anything. These are all things that we’re telling people are important, but if you’re in a high-pressure career, there’s a lot of nuances that just don’t allow for the same kinds of flexibility that some other people might have.

There are deadlines, there are clients, there are acquisitions, there’s all these things. People are raising money, they have investors that they’re answering to and all of that. So, do I think sleeping more is important? Yes. Do I wish I could sleep more? Yes. Do I think everyone should sleep more? Absolutely. But I know that getting an extra hour of sleep for people is like a really big ask.

So, I think if you can think about those, like, common things that we all know about, you know, sleep, eating, stuff like that, exercise, I think being creative is actually the way to go about it, and think about creative ways to implement those things, and not sort of the prescribed way in which everybody seems to be doing it. The example I always give is like a lot of our clients when they start exercising again, they sign up for like a triathlon or a marathon or something like that because that feels like the right thing to do for them.

But that’s not a sustainable choice most of the time. Occasionally, it is, but most of the time it’s not. And if you can get creative and be okay with something that doesn’t fit into sort of the box or what you expected exercise should be looking like, then that’s actually where the success comes from. And there are these small sorts of incremental changes of adding those things in, are all fine and all really important.

And they help with, like, a mindset shift, because a lot of times, like the initiation is the hard part, and like showing yourself that you can do things differently is the hard part because, especially if people have been in like the same kind of routine for a while, like starting to cook, like that’s really awkward. It’s really hard to start to do that.

And so, being sort of expecting that and knowing that’s part of the process of being okay with that is important. And I think it’s kind of interesting, too, because people, like all of us, we’re always looking to sort of optimize, and so we’re trying to look like, “What is the eating plan? What is a good exercise thing so I can lift and gain muscle and be strong and all these things?” But, oftentimes, we make them really complicated. And it doesn’t have to be that complicated and it doesn’t have to be that prescribed.

If your goal is to eat more home-cooked meals and you cook once a week on a Saturday, like that’s great. You’ve done it now. It doesn’t have to be that now you’re scratch cooking and meal prepping all week on a Sunday, and spending your whole Sunday doing that. So, that’s kind of like the first section of advice I give people, is kind of reorienting them to what’s possible in those kinds of common domains that we know about, and also to get creative about it.

There are all sorts of interesting ways to incorporate those things. I mean, maybe not sleep because then you’re just asleep. I mean, you can put in naps and stuff like that but, I mean, there’s like a thousand different ways to exercise, and a lot of them can be done in your house without any equipment. And so, just kind of figuring out what that looks like, I think, is important. So, that’s where we start usually. I don’t know if that answers the question, but that’s a strong place to start.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah. Well, I think it’s handy in terms of, I think, that’s like a top don’t with regard to stress management, is don’t just look at the moon and stars, like the utmost perfect exercise plan, the perfect amount of sleep, “Oh, yes, I should be sleeping seven to nine hours every night in complete darkness and silence, dah, dah, dah, with a bed that’s dynamically adjusting its temperature for me.” They haven’t sponsored the show yet. I mean, we’ll see.

But, okay, “Well, that’s beyond my reach, so just forget it all, you know.” Rather, it’s like, “Okay, well, what is creative? What is realistic? And what’s fine?” in terms of exercise or give you some more sleep, whatever, that’s really nifty. So, then it sounds like, with regard to the shiny advice, you don’t have a one weird trick to instantly calm down, but rather, “Hey, just do the little stress-relieving things we all know about in reasonable approachable proportions.”

Dr. Janna Koretz
Yes, I think a lot of that ties back into sort of black-and-white thinking. You’re right, it’s like, “It has to be all of it or none of it,” and like, we’re all kind of predisposed to that for various reasons. But the gray is fine, like good enough is excellent. And if you’re just looking to change your behavior, to make new habits, and also gain those advantages from doing all that stuff, it doesn’t have to be wild times. So, yeah, don’t do the big things. And also, if you’re looking to calm down, don’t tell people to calm down. That’s another don’t, right? Don’t do that.

Pete Mockaitis
Super. And if we find ourselves in the workaholic mode, what are your tips there?

If we are in a zone where it’s like, “I have to do this,” or, “I just am having so much fun, you know, work, work, working away for 13-plus hours a day.” I imagine this comes up frequently with your folks in high-pressure careers. How do you advise them?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think you have to think about what motivates you in life and what makes you happy, right? It comes back to the value stuff again a little bit, where there are people who work all the time and they’re happy, and that’s fine. You know what I mean? Like, think about like a lot of physicians spend a lot of time at the hospital, and, I mean, they don’t love their 36 hours on call, but they enjoy their job and they’re not going to necessarily quit their job because they really like what they do.

I know a lot of people do like coding. They get into the zone, they’re coding with their headphones on and then, somehow, like eight hours passes. But that’s what makes them happy, they like to build stuff, they like to be creative. So, keep in mind too, like it’s not always bad to have a couple days or kind of like a job where you’re working all the time. It’s when it gets in your way and when it causes you distress and then you have to sit and figure out what it is, why that is, like, “What makes you happy? What doesn’t make you happy? How do you want to spend your time? What is motivating to you?”

Because a lot of times when you ask those questions, it starts out being really obvious, “Well, I’m motivated because I want to do a good job.” “Why do you want to do a good job?” “Because I want to make money.” “Okay, why do you want to make money?” “Because I want to be able to buy all this stuff.” “Okay, why do you want to buy all this stuff?” And you keep going through all those lines of questioning.

It usually comes down to something like, because anxiety or fear-based, “Because I didn’t have money growing up, because I’m afraid I won’t have it. I’m afraid if I don’t make it now, I won’t have it later. I have a family to support. I want to support my parents as they age,” and things like that. Or, people don’t really have a good answer for that, and that’s important, too, to know if you don’t know why you’re doing what you’re doing, then that’s a whole other conversation.

So, the line of inquiry is also incredibly important to kind of figure out what it is you’re doing and why you’re doing it and why you’re working so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I have to tell you, in general, I’m not a quotes person.

But I will share a piece of advice that’s kind of a quote that I do like and I follow, which is, one of my supervisors a long time ago, I was working in a long-term adolescent in-patient unit, it was a state hospital, and there’s like just a lot of chaos that comes with that in terms of even just the systems issues.

And I was complaining one day about, like, “Well, if it’s that, the answer’s so obvious. Why are they doing it this way, the administration, this, that, and the other?” And she was like, “Janna, you got to play by the rules to change the rules.” And I was like, “Ah, yeah.” Like, I’m not in a position right now to change the rules, but I could be one day if I play by the rules and check the boxes and get to the place where I need to be to make the change. I thought that was kind of like an interesting way of thinking about things.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Dr. Janna Koretz
It’s a controversial thing now, but I did like the Stanford Prison Experiment a lot, not because I think it was a great idea, but I think it really showed dynamics around people and pressure and power that I think are really important that we should be talking about and thinking more about.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Maybe controversial to say, but I’m going to say it anyway, I love The Coddling of the American Mind.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, Jonathan Haidt. All right. And a favorite tool?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Boundary-setting.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Waking up before everybody does.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Dr. Janna Koretz
I think what maybe I might be known for is asking why maybe a little too much, but for the purpose of really getting people to think about things and wonder why things are the way they are. Like, “Why do we need to do this this way?” And this is true, I feel this way about therapy, in general, and psychology, in general, and just the way the industry is.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Janna Koretz
Our website is where we keep all the things, so AzimuthPsych.com, A-Z-I-M-U-T-H, psych. That’s where the burnout calculator, career enmeshment test, the values navigator are, all of the things we do, the people we see, other things that we like, that we share, other resources, where we’ve been in the media, things we’ve written about, stuff like that. It’s all in one place.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Janna Koretz
You can’t think about it too much. Sometimes you just have to do it and see what happens.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Dr. Koretz, thank you. This is fun and I wish you much joy.

Dr. Janna Koretz
Thank you. You as well.

Pete Mockaitis 

John, welcome. 

John Miles 

Pete, it is so fantastic to be here. Thank you for the honor of having me on. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Well, yeah, I’m excited to dig into your wisdom, and I’d love it if you could kick us off with any particularly striking, or surprising, or extra fascinating discoveries you’ve made while doing your interviews and putting together your book, Passion Struck. 

John Miles 

A person I love to quote, because I love her work, is Sharon Salzberg, and she has a quote that I just love, that “There’s no commodity that we can take with us. There’s only our lives. And whether we live them wisely or whether we live them in ignorance, and this is everything.” 

Pete Mockaitis 

Okay. And tell me more about how that really grabs you. 

John Miles 

It grabs me because I think so many of us live in the subconscious. We’re not really active and being intentional in creating and crafting the life that we want, and so we end up living it in a way that isn’t as authentic as it could be to what we could accomplish if we were aligning our actions with our ambitions and our long-term aspirations. And I think that’s really what she’s getting at is the well-lived life versus a life of just going throughout our days as if we’re a pinball, actively engaging with everything around us but doing it in an unintentional way.  

Pete Mockaitis 

That’s a cool visual, or should I say a haunting, shocking visual, thinking about a pinball just bouncing around and actively engaging with everything, when some things are better to not be engaged with at times. Could you make this all the more real for us with a cool story of someone who found themselves kind of in pinball mode and then made some changes and unlocks some really cool stuff?  

John Miles 

Yes. So, a great person to highlight would be Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, who I highlight in the book. 

And I think his story is a great one to illustrate this point, because if you look back upon it, we see the person today who’s the megastar, one of the highest paid actors in Hollywood, but at the beginning of his career he actually spent a pretty considerable amount of time without any money, basically living almost homeless before he found his way to going into the WWE, but at that time he was going by his real name, and it wasn’t until sometime after that that he took on The Rock, which was actually his father’s name, and started to build his career. 

But what really differentiates Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson is that he is a constant reinventor. There are so many times in his life that he could have plateaued and stood where he was, but he continuously strove to take those steps that would take him to the next place. And so that led him next into acting and then, even when he was an actor, he envisioned himself becoming even a greater actor in the pinnacle of male actors of his time. And it was through this constant manifesting that he took himself from this point where his life was completely at a point of desperation to what we see today. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Yeah, that is powerful. I understand, in his story, that he pretty much just declared, “I’m going to be a superstar,” and he took inventory of what’s up, he’s like, “Well, I’m pretty good at building muscles so that’s going to be part of the differentiator, and I’m going to hit the gym like mad in order to really become jacked, huge, shredded, etc.” so as to facilitate his journey to superstardom. 

John Miles 

No, I think that’s absolutely the case, and I think you bring up something that’s really important is, he had already started having this long-term aspiration that he wanted to manifest. And then I think what he did, and so many failed to do, is he started to take those daily actions that were getting him closer, and he aligned those actions with the short-term ambitions that he had along the path to reaching the long-term aspirations that he wanted. And that’s really the core of a lot about what I talk about through the lens of Passion Struck and creating a passion-struck life is aligning those three very things.  

Pete Mockaitis 

Well, it sounds like is that how you would articulate the big idea or core message of Passion Struck to make the shift from just existing and reacting and bouncing around like a pinball to getting in the proactive driver’s seat and making it happen? Or how would you articulate the key thesis? 

John Miles 

Yeah, well, the core thesis is it is a state of alignment, like I talked about, where actions, intentions, ambitions, and aspirations are in perfect harmony, but it’s more than that. It really represents a transformative mindset and behavior shift that’s essential for what I think is rewiring the patterns of default that so many of us end up dictating our entire lives to attaining. 

And it really emphasizes the importance of synchronizing what we do, why we do it, what do we hope to achieve, ensuring that every step that we take is infused with purpose and passion. And so that’s what Passion Struck really is, is it’s this never-ending pursuit of becoming your ideal self the best that you could possibly be. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Oh, that’s great. Well, you’ve got six mindset shifts and six behavior changes, and I’m going to rattle off the quick one-sentence version or teaser of what those are in a moment, but first I want to give you first crack at it. I love that turn-of-phrase you had, “rewiring our default setting.” So, answer me this, John, if there were a single setting within us, a toggle switch where we could shift the default from A to B, what do you think is the most leveraged impactful shift we could make? What’s our default setting? What’s the optimal setting? And how do we make that transition? 

John Miles 

I think for me, what’s top of mind today is motivation and what motivates us. So, I think in default, we tend to be motivated by the extrinsic things in life, the things that we’re led to believe will bring us happiness and success, which comes down to the money we make, the way we present ourselves to the world, the houses that we own, the neighborhoods we live in, the cars we drive, the titles we hold. 

And I think the shift that we really need to make is a shift towards intrinsic motivation acting as the cohesive glue that links our mindset, our behavior, and our deliberate action. That doesn’t mean that you can live without extrinsic motivation. It just means that the default should be more leaning in on the internal drive that fuels our journey towards a life of passion and purpose.  

Pete Mockaitis 

That does seem like a superior setting to be rolling with. John, tell us, how do we go about flipping that switch? 

John Miles 

So, I think right now, there is a profound sense of what I call un-mattering in the world. And before I started this journey of creating Passion Struck, I was given this vision over a decade ago that I was being called to serve, at the time, the words that were coming to me were the lonely, hopeless, broken, beaten, bored, battered of the world. And I had no idea what to do with it because my back story at that time was, I was a successful business executive. I was a C-suite exec in a Fortune 50 company. 

And so, when I started hearing these things, I had no idea what it was calling me to do, why or what even I was supposed to be doing to serve these people. But I started to examine my own life and what was going on in it, and I find that we are often best positioned to serve the people that we once were. And that’s absolutely what I talk about because I was living a life where I was consumed with the extrinsic motivations, and on the outside it looked perfect. 

But inside I felt completely numb and detached from the authentic self that I wanted to be. And I felt this profound sense of feeling that I didn’t matter, that I didn’t feel like what I was doing was fulfilling. 

And so, what I really then went on with this was this journey of me-search, of really doing core introspection into what was driving that state and how do I pivot to really having a different set of goals that were guiding me, and reformulating how I was thinking, how I was perceiving what I wanted in life, but more importantly, how I could teach others to really understand that they did matter, and that this feeling of being significant and valued is really anchored in our intrinsic motivation, energizing our pursuit of goals with relentless determination, and the inner spark that not only influences how we persevere through challenges that we face, but also guides and defines our actions towards the objectives that we want in life. So that’s the path that I ended up taking. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Oh, awesome. Well, I’d love to take just a couple minutes to dig into that journey a bit. When you said given this vision and hearing these things, what is the source, the message, the messenger? How did that land in you? 

John Miles 

So, it started to hit me at a point where my life was really consumed with the constant grind, and I have always been religious. And I decided to take courses that are offered in the Methodist religion called Discipleship, where for 36 weeks I went through an intense two-times a week class where we went through the entire Bible. 

And while I was going through that, it also awakened in me, and I think that this is something, whether you’re religious or not, I think sometimes we go about taking on a new challenge, and by doing that challenge, it opens us up to introspection, and that’s absolutely what it did for me, and I started to question the whys behind how I was living my life.  

Pete Mockaitis 

And that is a theme we’ve heard before. It’s like when folks engage, whether it’s a faith, or wisdom tradition, or intense introspective situation, yes, insights pop up and it can be a sort of an epiphany, a transformation, a life changer, a redirector of great consequence. So, we’ve heard that kind of a story before, so we’ll call it a theme, John. We’ll call it a theme. 

So, let’s dig in a little bit. We’ve got six mindset shifts, six behavior changes. And inside your mindset shifts, we’ve got the mission angler, muster the power to do something great; the brand reinventor, never being afraid to reinvent yourself; the mosquito auditor, avoid the most dangerous animal on the planet; the fear confronter, realizing that you are your greatest competitor; the perspective harnesser, zoom out and tap into its power; and the action creator, permit yourself to dream the dream. 

I’m most intrigued by talking about harnessing perspective, zooming out and tapping into the power. Lately, I’ve just been seeing that as a theme in terms of, like, I’m going about my life and I see my iPad, my iPad shows me an image, like Apple Photos does of, “Oh, here’s what was going on three years ago!” You’re like, “Whoa!” Or just looking at photos in general is like, “Wow, that’s a totally different time and place and an experience and perspective, and wow!” because it feels like, for me, at times, what you’re up in in this moment is, all there ever was, all there ever will be. 

And Daniel Kahneman has got a great quote, “Nothing is as important as you think it is while you’re thinking about it.” And I think that is so on the money. So, help us out here, if we want to harness some perspectives, how do we in fact zoom out and tap into some good power of broader, wiser perspective?

John Miles 

Yeah, so I think the first thing for the audience to understand is, in the Western mindset, that most of us who are listening to this likely have been brought up in, it’s deeply rooted in Greek philosophy which excels in linear learning. So, this whole concept of both/and thinking, which is really an Eastern concept doesn’t get really bestowed on us, so we really enter the world by thinking and viewing it as either/or instead of through the paradoxes that amplify the way we think. 

So, to think about this, and this both/and paradigm, it’s really thinking that our life has the possibilities where we can do things such as balance hard work with rest, merge self-discipline with self-compassion, finding harmony between solitude while also having community, integrating mind and body and so on and so forth. But the way I try to break it down in this chapter is I go into the behavior science behind it by looking at the works of Marianne Lewis and Wendy Smith who wrote a great book called Both/And Thinking, and then I use the example of a good friend of mine, astronaut Chris Cassidy. 

And I think Chris’s journey really highlights this difference in perspective and how it reshaped how he viewed challenges, how he viewed the world around him, and I’ll just give a couple examples of that. So, one of the core stories that I remember Chris talking to me about was his time going through basic underwater demolition school training to become a SEAL. 

And as he was going through Hell Week, everyone who’s there is miserable. But I remember him telling me that, in this point of misery, as he was colder than he’s ever been in his entire life, he looked down the line of people who were next to him, and he saw a Thai exchange student who was very thin, used to a completely different climate, and was so uncomfortable that he was actually buckling two and fours, he was looking at Chris, and Chris was looking back at him. And he realized that no matter how bad he had it, someone else had it worse. 

And it kind of gave him this courage to view life differently. Instead of looking at this as a never-ending trial, he looked at it as an opportunity, one, to see how far he could push his body and to view it as if it was a rubber band where he could expand or detract these trying moments in life. And he found through that, he could reshape his perspective to seeing that this was going to have a finite end. 

And all he needed to do was to concentrate on taking the conscious actions to let go of the things that were impacting him from achieving that goal. And that ended up leading him then throughout the remaining training and time in the SEALs as viewing these things that he would find himself encountering as finite periods of stress or trauma or action, and then training his mind to get through them. So, I think that’s just one powerful example of how you can implement it. 

Pete Mockaitis 

That is cool. And, boy, that feels like we need to have a movie scene of this eureka epiphany moment of enlightenment there. And I think that’s often the thing about perspective, is these things are objectively true, “Yes, this is temporary. The training will conclude.” And, yes, it is true, someone else has it tougher than you. 

And it seems like where I run into trouble, and I think many do, is those perspectives, while true, don’t get the focus, the attention. Like, your mind is consumed, like, “Oh, my gosh, this hurts a lot. I don’t know if I can handle much more of this.” And that is the dominant perspective and narrative that is running the show in your brain. Any pro tips, John, on when you’re in the midst of a small perspective dominating the scene, how to return to the broader perspective? 

 John Miles 

Yeah, to me, this is something that I refer to as the growth paradox, and I think real growth is like farming. It’s not instant gratification. It requires consistent effort and practice. And what that ends up doing is it leads to exponential returns over time. So, a core thing for the audience to think about is lulls and plateaus in our life shouldn’t be viewed as times of failure or not making progress, but as stages for future growth, and that’s something that this growth paradox teaches us about. 

Another one would be the failure paradox, which is looking at failure as a valuable teacher, which I’m sure many people have explored on this show, but each failure provides insights and learning opportunities just as James Dyson’s many inventions failed as he was creating prototypes before he successfully created the vacuum cleaner and then many of the other inventions that have come from Dyson’s products since then. So those would be two examples. 

 Pete Mockaitis 

Okay. Well, now, when it comes to, you listed six intentional behavior changes, and I’m going to give a little quick overview here. We got the anxiety optimizer, how to be on edge without going off the edge; originality embracer, realize that originality necessitates adaptability; the boundary magnifier, understand that sometimes being right means being alone; the outward inspirer, speak or act with your feet; the gardener leader, practice eyes-on, hands-off leadership; and the conscious engager, keep the main thing the main thing. 

I want to dig into the anxiety optimizer. We’ve had Morra Aarons-Mele, who’s great, talking about making anxiety your friend when you are trying to achieve stuff and to not let it consume you. So, let us know, what are your best practices you’ve discovered in terms of how do we make the most of the power, the fuel that anxiety can give us without just freaking out and losing it? 

John Miles 

So, I think it’s important, before we even go into that, to define why this is so important for us to master. McKinsey did some groundbreaking research on this zone of optimal anxiety, and what they found was that leaders who were able to perform in this state, outperformed their peer group by over 400%. Another way to think about that is they were able to accomplish, in two hours, what their peer group was doing, in eight to ten hours. 

So, in Passion Struck, why this is so important is I talk about, later in the book, the psychology of progress, and a core theme of that is that time is malleable. Well, in order to find more time, to take more action to move your life forward, you have to be better at utilizing it. And that’s, where getting into this optimal state of anxiety, is extremely important because in those two hours, if you learn how to do this, you can do what others are doing in eight to ten, which also opens up your life to have more balance in it and to develop and cultivate more relationships. 

So, at the core of this, it’s really thinking about your life as if you’re walking a tightrope. And on one side of the tightrope is overwhelming fear, and on the other is an indifference, and the state in between is what we talk about with finding the state of optimal anxiety. Anxiety is like a boon and a bane. A certain level gets you fired up, ready to take on challenges, but too much, it’s like you’re crashing a party like an unwelcome guest who doesn’t know when to leave. 

So, this is really science-backed strategy that’s crucial for achieving anything that you want in life. So, I talk about two different ways of doing it, there are more than these, but I really focus this chapter on another SEAL named Mark Devine, who many people have probably heard of, and also a race car driver named Jesse Iwuji. 

And Mark, when he was going through BUD/S himself, similar to Chris, was the first SEAL leader where his entire boat crew actually graduated from BUD/S. And the reason that that whole crew was able to do it was because he taught them four critical things that allowed them to exist in the state of optimal anxiety. The first was breath control. 

He, at first, started teaching them the simple practice of box breathing, which, if someone wants to experiment with this, just think of yourself doing a box, and breathe in for four seconds, breathe out for four seconds, etc. But this breath control is a dynamic way for you to control the energy that’s flowing through you and to really target it in a different way by quieting down your emotions. 

The second thing he really taught these folks was to have a positive internal dialogue, in that, similar to the way Chris, as I talked about, shifted his perspective, they too could shift that positive internal dialogue and how they were approaching their days and the activities that they were going through. The next thing he taught them was the power of imagery and how, having that imagery of them graduating BUD/S, of them becoming a SEAL, and seeing that optimism and success would change the way that they were viewing the longevity of the task that was ahead of them. 

And, lastly, and I think one of the most important things he taught them was the importance of targeted focus, of being present in the moment and getting through the activities that we were doing. So those four things – breath control, positive internal dialogue, imagery and targeted focus – are the things that I highlight in the book. But a way that a person could think about this is we often end up spiraling. And one of the initial things that we can do, is if you practice that breath work, it allows you to have awareness. 

And, to me, awareness is half the battle won, because if we have awareness, we catch ourselves before we even start spiraling because we notice when unease starts creeping in, and that perhaps prickly feeling or that thing where your hair is rising, and that’s your cue to understanding that you need to start taking some deep breaths and slowing everything down to allow yourself to get clarity. So that would be one starting point that I would talk about. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Yeah, that’s really cool, and you’re making me think I really need to finish that book by Mark Devine, the Unbeatable Mind, I think it’s called. I’ve started it, and too many books crowded it out, but there’s a lot of goodness there. So, I’m intrigued by this notion of optimizing anxiety. It seems like there are some interconnected ideas here, whether it’s Stephen Covey talking about the growth zone is in the middle of the panic zone and I think the complacent zone, or Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi says your flow state is when the task is not so easy that it’s boring, and not so hard that you’re overwhelmed, freaking out. 

So, it seems like all three of these conceptualizations have some overlap, but I like the way that you’ve zoomed it in on anxiety as an emotion, a signal, a trigger for you to tune in to these dynamics that are going on. Is optimizing your anxiety level just the same as Covey style being in the growth zone, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi style being in the flow state? Or are there some nuances, distinctions that you would highlight within this framework? 

John Miles 

No, you’re right, it is similar to both of those things, and that flow state is a critical and core component of it. To me, I think the phrase that really captures this the best is to learn to be on the edge without going over the edge. And the best vision that I heard to capture this was talking to NASCAR driver, Jesse Iwuji, who told me, when he’s driving the car, when he was too cautious, it would cause him to wreck because the other drivers were expecting him to do things that were more aggressive in his driving style. But when he tried to take it too far to the edge, he also would wreck out because he was trying to push things too much. 

So, it was really finding that balance in between those two where he learned how to position himself to be on the edge without going over the edge. And to me, that’s what makes this a little bit different. It’s like riding the wave without wiping out because we’ve all heard of athletes who are in the zones, artists losing themselves in creation, coders crunching lines of code until time blurs. But what I’m talking about here is the underlying, really, emotion that lies underneath it, and how do you calm that as your entry point into going into this state. 

Pete Mockaitis 

And to flip it, what if we don’t have enough anxiety, like we’re too we’re too passive, chill about a matter, and we would do better to crank it up? I guess what’s resonating for me is I’m thinking about there’s a time where I was hosting leadership conferences. I remember the first time I did it, I was kind of anxious, like, “Oh, my gosh, I’ve never done this before. This is a big role, a big deal. Got to really make sure everything is done well,” and things went rather well. 

And then the second time, I was like, “I got this. I know how this is done. Been there, done that,” and it went not as well. I was too passive and it would have behooved me and the attendees had I been more anxious the second time around. Any pro tips when what’s necessary is to crank it up a bit? 

John Miles 

Yeah, I think I have a tendency probably, as people are hearing me talk, to be more like what you were describing. And so, for me, if I’m giving a talk in that example, I really do my best to amp myself up, because if you’re too subdued, like you were talking about in that situation, people aren’t going to feel the energy reverberating from you that you want them to feel. 

So, I think it’s really having that self-awareness, which I talked about earlier, of understanding where your emotional state is, and the task that you’re trying to complete and readjusting it based on the situation that you’re faced with. So, in that same situation, if I’m behind stage, getting ready to go out there and give my best, I’m really pumping myself up. 

And something that I actually do is I visualize myself being someone other than myself at times. I often, going back to Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, picture myself as him coming on the stage, and how would he present himself to the audience, what emotion would he give. And when I do that, and I think about portraying him and the emotions on the stage, it completely changes how I myself am showing up and transforming it into a more profound version of myself. 

So, I would encourage the audience, if they’re facing the same situation, that’s something that I like to do, I was taught that by a speaking coach, is imagine someone else that you want to emulate and picture yourself being them as you’re going throughout that activity.  

Pete Mockaitis 

Oh, totally. We had a guest who used the term psychological Halloween-ism. It’s like you’re donning the costume of the superhero or whomever that you want to be, and, sure enough, somehow that just kind of influences your thoughts and attitudes and behaviors and results. Go figure. Really cool. Now, to that point about Mark Devine with those four things, with the visualization imagery, any pro tips or do’s and don’ts on visualizing well? 

I think sometimes, for example, in a tough spot, if you’re visualizing, “Oh, just a few more minutes till we get a meal,” or a donut, or a smoke, or whatever you’re craving and feel deprived of, that sometimes that could be a counterproductive strategy in terms of getting the best from yourself over the long term. What are your perspectives on best and worst practices for visualizing and using imagery well? 

John Miles 

Yeah, to me, what I think is most important about it is being consistent in your application of it. And for me, there are three different ways that I like to do visualizations. The first is I like to do activations. So, in the morning, I get up really early, 5:00 a.m., I go on this walk with my dog, and I use activations, which is a little bit different than a meditation. I’m activating the way I want my life to unfold. I’m activating how I want my day to go. 

And so, I picture for myself what I want the day to look like when it’s complete, and I kind of walk through what I want my morning to look like, what I want to get accomplished, what I need to do in the middle of the day, what I need to do in the late afternoon, but then also visualize how I want to show up for my loved ones. So that’s one way that I think you can do it is through those activations. 

Another way that I like to do it is through journaling, and really just going into a free flow of thought about, “How am I showing up today? What am I feeling?” and getting those raw emotions out on paper. And then, really then, if there’s a gap between the ideal state that I want to live that day in, then really visualizing, “What actions do I need to take in my energy, in my focus, in how I want to change the very aspects of how I’m going to lead my life for the next few hours of the day?” 

And so, those are two things that I found helpful for me where I use activations or journaling to help me get into that state of internal dialogue, and really that imagery that I want to see for myself and how it’s shaping the immediacy of, for me, the day and the transition points between it. 

Pete Mockaitis 

And so, when you’re visualizing that optimal day outcome, are you sort of imagining yourself in the process of, “Okay, and I’m going to write some stuff. I see myself – third person, first person – at the keyboard, clacking away, or I am admiring the written words with a beaming grin of pride”? Like, what are some of the details of a visualized scene that you construct? 

John Miles 

So, for me, I’m more visualizing the outcomes. Like, this time that I have, what are the outcomes that I want to achieve and in what time frames do I want to achieve them? So, it could be envisioning myself preparing for an interview that I’m doing on a podcast. It could be, as you were saying, visualizing myself writing chapters of a book or a blog that I’m working on. It could be me visualizing a phone call that I’m going to have and how I want that phone call to go to produce the outcome that I want. 

So, I’m really outcome focused and how I’m trying to use this imagery to think through the day and the positive outcome that I want to achieve through the actions that I’m doing. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Awesome. Well, John, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about a few of your favorite things? 

John Miles 

No, I’ve really enjoyed this. Thank you. 

Pete Mockaitis 

All right. Well, now could you give us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?  

John Miles 

This one is from Henry David Thoreau, and he says that “The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.” And I also love the quote by Mark Twain, that 20 years from now, you can look back upon your life, and you can either choose to live it by stepping out into the unknown, or you can choose to live it, as Sharon Salzberg said, in constant anticipation of what if or could be.  

Pete Mockaitis 

All right. And could you now share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research? 

John Miles 

So, some research that I really like is that of Dr. Benjamin Hardy and some of the work that he’s done with Dan Sullivan. Top of mind to me is some of the work that he’s done on future self where he’s looked at the difference between the gap versus the gain, where so many of us live in this comparison trap where we’re constantly living our lives in the gap because we’re trying to compare who we are to some ideal that is just almost impossible for us to achieve. 

It would be like me trying to compare myself as a speaker to Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson, or to Ed Mylett, or someone who’s been doing this to an extremely professional level. Whereas, I could be looking at my life in the gains that I’m making where I’m comparing my current self to my past self, and looking at the incremental progress that I’ve made. And I think that’s really important when we think about the life that we want to craft, is, “How do we develop the mindset shift from going from the comparison trap of living in the gap to living our lives more in the gains?” 

 Pete Mockaitis 

And a favorite book? 

John Miles 

I think one of the most profound books I’ve ever read that’s influenced me personally was Quiet by Susan Cain.  

Pete Mockaitis 

All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job? 

John Miles 

At first, I was fearing what AI would do, and so I was trying to not use it, but I’ve really figured that it’s not going away. So, if AI is going to be around for a long time, I better become an expert at using it. So, I have really been going further and further down the rabbit hole of what are different ways that you can use AI to make not only your career better, but your life better. 

Pete Mockaitis 

All right. And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often? 

John Miles 

True success really comes down to winning the battle with yourself. Those, I believe, who persist in the pursuit of their dreams, no matter what the hurdles, are the winners in life because they’ve won over their weaknesses. And to me, that is really a profound thing that I want people to take away, is that we all have our different definitions of success. 

But to me, the biggest battle that any of us have is with the inner critic that presents itself to us at each and every day, and learning how to win over that critic, and to overcome the self-limiting beliefs that hold so many of us back, to me is the key to what Sharon Salzberg was talking about in how we choose to live our life, whether we choose to live it in excellence or with ignorance. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them? 

John Miles 

So, the two best places would be my two websites. If you want to learn more about me personally, you can go to JohnRMiles.com. If you want to learn more about the Passion Struck Movement, my podcast, things like that, you can go to PassionStruck.com. And a really great thing that people can do, if they want to try it out, is I created a quiz when I launched the book that will help people understand where they sit on the Passion Struck continuum. It’s about 20 questions, it takes about 10 minutes, and they can find that on PassionStruck.com. 

Pete Mockaitis 

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs? 

John Miles 

Yes. Often our choice of career is dictated more by the allure of stability and safety than by passion and fulfillment. And I ended up being about 20 years into my career when I came to the profound realization that I had become an absolute expert at making money for others and making others dreams come true, but I wasn’t making my own dreams come true. 

So, really, it’s confronting this fear of uncertainty that pushes many of us towards professions that we feel less connection to, resulting in what I think is so many people feeling unfulfilled or disengaged in the workplace. So, what I would encourage people to do is to take that other path, the path to start making your own dreams come true, and finding something that you feel is fulfilling at your heart, and that you wake up just with this unending desire and passion and ignition within that it’s propelling you to just want to do that with your life. And that really gets down to exploiting your uniqueness, your unique gifts, to find a problem that’s worth solving in the service of others. 

 Pete Mockaitis 

Beautiful. Well, John, thank you. I wish you many more adventures and days of passion. 

John Miles 

Well, thank you so much, Pete, for having me on your show. That was an absolute phenomenal interview, and I can see why your show is so popular. 

Pete Mockaitis 

Well, thank you. Appreciate that.