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Oct 31
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1007: The Overachiever’s Guide to Finding More Fulfillment at Work with Megan Hellerer

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Megan Hellerer reveals the simple shifts that make your career and life feel more meaningful.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why many overachievers feel underfulfilled 
  2. The mindset that leads to fit and fulfillment 
  3. The key questions to ask before any decision 

About Megan 

Megan Hellerer is a career coach and the author of DIRECTIONAL LIVING: A Transformational Guide to Fulfillment in Work and Life. She has led hundreds of women, including Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, to transform their lives by transforming their careers. After checking all the traditional boxes of success—graduating at the top of her class from Stanford University and spending eight years as a Google executive—and still deeply unhappy, she quit her great-on-paper job with no plan. Now her mission is to provide others with the support and guidance that she needed when she herself was struggling.

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Megan Hellerer Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Megan, welcome!

Megan Hellerer
Pete, it’s so good to be here today. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to have you and discuss some of the insights from your book, Directional Living. And I would like to hear a story about a transformed client, but it sounds like, in many ways, your own story is like the picture-perfect textbook case for what we’re talking about here. Could you tell it to us?

Megan Hellerer

Absolutely, yeah. I consider myself my own first guinea pig. All of this grew out of my own need for solutions, for answers. And so, my story is I was what I now have come to call an under-fulfilled overachiever, which is someone who has checked all the boxes, done all the right things, did everything they were supposed to do, and really built this great on-paper life that did not feel so great inside.

And, for me, that looked like, you know, getting straight A’s in high school, captain and president of all the things, going on to Stanford, graduating at the top of my class, starting at Google almost immediately after I graduated, and dutifully climbing the ladder for eight years there, and getting a bunch of different promotions, and getting to work on cool stuff, and be exposed to a lot of interesting ideas.

And, in the meantime, I was having near-daily panic attacks, I was deeply depressed, and was struggling really even to get to work every day. I was just miserable. And I should say this wasn’t always how I was. My mental health started suffering in my time at Google, and yet I couldn’t quite connect it to the fact that I was unhappy at my work, and maybe it wasn’t the best fit for me. I felt so ashamed of the fact that I had this dream job that everybody would want, and what was so wrong with me that I couldn’t be happy or feel like a job was just a job or find fulfillment in this.

And, eventually, I ended up quitting my job with no plan, simply because I really could not do it anymore. And through that process of simply trying to help myself, I sought out many resources and teachers and mentors and programs, and nothing was quite helping me find a new approach or new way of thinking about my work and my career.

And through that process, I ended up taking a coaching training course, simply in an effort to help myself, but also thinking that it might help me when I was back in corporate land, mentoring and managing teams again, and I just loved the way that coaching worked, the frameworks around it. I did not intend for it to be a career. I was extremely skeptical and dubious of coaching as a career. I very much had a lot of ego involved where I was, like, “Who goes to Stanford and becomes a coach? That’s not a thing,” and didn’t really think I could also have an income from that.

But I kept sort of going through the process, and, in order to get certified, which I did just because I figured “Why not? I’m already here,” I had to coach, get a certain number of paid hours of coaching and reached out to some friends of friends. And what happened is that their lives started to change. My life started to change through helping them change their lives. They started referring people to me and before I knew it, before I even had the intention of having a coaching practice, I had a full roster of clients.

And sort of still dragging my feet, I decided it was something that I needed to, I couldn’t not try. And fast forward 10 years later, I’ve now been working with helping under-fulfilled overachievers find fulfillment and developed a methodology and a framework for thinking about this and looking at this, that I realized also applies beyond under-fulfilled overachievers, and now have had the great fortune and joy of getting to write a book about it as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s so cool. Well, I want to dig into so many little tidbits here. First, my own curiosity, which coaching certification body?

Megan Hellerer
Coaching Training Institute, CTI. I think they might have changed to Coactive Training Institute.

Pete Mockaitis
jI was going to say, I don’t know a ton about the coaching landscape but I did do the fundamentals course with the Coactive folks. And it seems like the people in the know often say “This is what’s up.”

Megan Hellerer
Yeah, that was the first course that I took was the fundamentals, and then, for the sake of brevity, I left this out of it. But I took that and then I didn’t go back, you know, there’s many other series. I didn’t go back for, like, three months because I was, like, “This is too much fun. This can’t be serious work because work has to be hard and serious, and, therefore, this is a waste of my time because it’s not going to lead me to where I want to go in my career,” which was a whole other mistake or misguided belief. And, eventually, I couldn’t stop thinking about it and went back and completed it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so then let’s back it up a little bit. The panic attacks and the deeply depressed and the miserable situation at Google, were these in your life prior to Google, like, as you were crushing it at Stanford, etc.?

Megan Hellerer
No. So, I think that’s a key part of the story is that I did not struggle with mental health previously. I should say, I had high-functioning anxiety, to some extent, but it wasn’t debilitating. It wasn’t getting in the way of the way I was living my life. I had pretty decent coping mechanisms. And so, it really escalated majorly at Google.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, now you’ve done a lot of work and a lot of reflection, and can you identify, is it your assertion that it was the primary driver of some of these mental health challenges, was the mismatch of you and that role there?

Megan Hellerer
Yes, actually. So, I often refer to it as the fulfillment ache, which is like the distance between who you are actually and how you’re showing up in the world. And when that chasm gets too big for too long, this sort of existential depression, anxiety, struggles develop in that gap. So, again, it really does become physically, viscerally painful to live that way.

And so, I think it was a misalignment of my life, in general, Google being a very big piece of it, given how much time I was spending there and how maybe unbalanced my life was. But I don’t think my relationship was a good match for me at the time. I don’t think the city I was living in was a good match for me. And so, there was, holistically, it was the misalignment of my life but that was a major piece of it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, since we’re talking about being awesome at jobs here, at How to be Awesome at Your Job, I’m curious, can you identify the particular pieces of mismatch within Google? Because I would imagine, and you correct me if I’m wrong, that there may well be some roles inside the vast breadth that is this company, in which you might be delighted. Do you think that’s the case, or, no, no, there were a few fundamental things that just weren’t working for you?

Megan Hellerer
That one might be delighted in, or that I personally might be delighted in?

Pete Mockaitis
Ah, sorry, you, Megan, would be delighted in.

Megan Hellerer
Yes, because I was going to say, this is not an anti-Google thing, right? Like, there are many people for whom working at Google in whatever role they’re in, and I’ve coached people into Google or supported people’s decisions to be, to stay at, or join Google or other tech companies and all of that, so this isn’t anti-Google or anti-corporate. For me, personally, I do not think there is a role at Google. Never say never, but as far as I can tell, I do not think there’s a role at Google that would be aligned for me.

So, there are a few broader things, like environment, like I just don’t think I’m meant to be in, like, an open floor layout plan. Like, I’m very pretty introverted, and I like to do deep focus work separately from people. So, there are things like that, that I think were never a good match for me and really drained my energy.

Well, I love working from home, which I think is another thing, like, I am most creative and most effective from, like, five to nine in the morning, and that’s when I do my best writing, my best deep thought work. And so, it’s hard to do that when you are keeping corporate hours.

I mean, you can still do that, but then you’re spending four extra hours with your butt in the seat to demonstrate that you’re there in the office. You don’t have a lot of control. Like, I only take meetings at certain days and certain times in order because that’s like the best flow and efficiency for me. All of these things, not Google specifically, but are difficult in corporate land.

I also really like working for myself, as in being my own boss, and kind of, I don’t know, directing the flow of things and deciding what the priorities are, and I really like to be able to be nimble and make quick decisions, like hiring, firing, joining, a lot of testing and learning.

And I found that it was very, draining to have to support decisions and strategies that I really didn’t agree with because that’s the nature of the game. You can voice your opinion, leadership makes the decision, and then it’s your job to enact those things. I also was working on, like, sales and partnership side of things. But living and dying by the spreadsheets of revenue, and that are kind of arbitrary things were really difficult for me, and kind of just, like, the death by PowerPoint, I just like couldn’t. There was all the meetings about meetings and meetings, and I really, clearly, I need to go to more therapy for this.

I really had a hard time with things that felt inefficient or ineffective. And that stuff really grated at me. I also think that’s part of why I was good at my job there, is because I have an eye for scale and operations, and I was able to offer ways that we could improve things, but that isn’t always taken into consideration.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well, Megan, I’m relating to this so much, and I love how you’ve teased out some of the very specifics. Like, based on who you are, how you roll, the means by which you operate and exist in this world, were not fitting there with regard to the bureaucracy, you wanted to do more testing and learning, the open floor plan was tricky, supporting things that you weren’t the boss of, making the decisions on, living and dying by spreadsheet revenue, things that felt inefficient.

And it’s funny, I can really relate to so much of this because I thought I had a dream job at Bain & Company and I learned a lot of stuff, and the people were phenomenal, and there was not a jerk or an idiot anywhere to be found there, in my experience, and some cases were really cool for me, and some really weren’t.

And that was really intriguing how we see, “Oh, well, some magazines say this is the best place to work,” Bain or Google, “And yet it’s not the best place for me to work. Huh.” And that’s natural for you to think, “Oh, well, what’s wrong with me? If the world says these are the best places to work, and I’m not happy there, maybe my happiness functioning is just broke.”

Megan Hellerer
Yep, exactly. And I think that gets to the point of there is no objectively great jobs or objectively perfect. It’s only good or right for you. And I will say that in terms of “Would there be a job at Google that would be a good fit for me?” I made many tweaks and shifts in the eight years there to try to make it work. This wasn’t like I did one thing the whole time and then I was like, “Hm, I’m done.”

Like, I changed teams, I changed roles, I changed locations, I changed organizations, I changed products, I changed, like, every managers, seating arrangements, like pretty much every tweak you could make, I made. And when I finally, in sort of the last role, was the thing that I was like, “This is my last hypothesis of what would make this work.” And my idea was, if I was working on consumer-facing products instead of ad-oriented or enterprise or some sort of products, like maybe then if I was working directly with the end consumer that I would care more about the impact I was having.

And even then, and we were working on Google Wallet at the time, like tap and pay, which was brand new and, like, such a revelation and was, like, novel and interesting, and as a consumer I was excited about it, and I still was not excited about doing the work involved in that and the day to day of what that actually felt like and the experience of it, really made it clear for me. And then I think working, I’d been working my butt off for this promotion. I really was like working so hard for so long and, whatever, doing all the things.

And then I got it, I got the promotion, and I felt nothing. In fact, I felt emptier, I was like, “What am I working for now?” And also, nothing actually changes. It’s the same job, which is like maybe more responsibility, maybe a slight pay increase, higher expectations, and now I just work for another promotion? And there was no one ahead of me that I could see, that I was like, “Oh, I actually really want that.”

And it just dawned on me, like, “Who am I doing this for?” And I think those were some of the moments where I couldn’t see somewhere that I truly wanted to get to, or where anything was going to feel different after having made all of those adjustments that I could think of.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, thank you. And I like the word “hypothesis” there. You were testing each of these things, and it sounds like that’s kind of like a fundamental means by which you cracked the code on this, in terms of “What’s going to do it? Well, let’s see. Maybe it’s this. Let’s try it. Oh, I guess that wasn’t it.” And then, “Oh, this coaching thing is really awesome. Huh, how surprising. Well, maybe let’s do a little more of that, see how that goes.” So, that seems to be one thread there.

Could you share what are kind of the fundamental principles you recommend people keep in mind? If folks are resonating, like, “Oh, this is haunting. Megan is like telling my story,” how would you recommend people start thinking about this thing all the wiser?

Megan Hellerer
I love that you brought up hypothesis because I often talk about it as sort of the scientific method for life, where our job is not to know the answer or to figure out the answer. We’re meant to sit there and be like, “Okay, what am I meant to do with my life? Let me think really hard about this.” We need to live into those things. We need to experiment.

So, have a hypothesis. That’s great. And think, “Okay, I think I want to go into this field,” or, “Coaching seems more interesting, or something to do with counseling and advising and consulting. That seems like a better direction for me.” And then the key thing, is that when you’re doing an experiment in scientific method, the goal is not to prove yourself right. The goal is not to prove the hypothesis right. It’s to find the truth.

And so, what often happens is we pick, in my language, a destination, and say, instead of a hypothesis, “I wonder if this is the right thing for me,” we say, “This is the thing I’m going to achieve. I’m going to become CEO by the time I retire,” and we get so attached to that goal as our failure or success, as opposed to testing and learning, that we don’t even realize somewhere along the way that that actually is not the truth, that’s not the results of the experiment, that’s not actually what we want. And so, when we get there, it doesn’t feel like what we thought it would. And that’s kind of where one of the biggest problems are.

So, to go to these core principles of what I call directional living, which is the first principle, which is focus on the direction, not the destination. And what I’ve found is that most of us who get stuck in our careers, and frankly in our lives, it’s because we focus on the destination. We are being outcome-oriented. We think we need to know exactly where we’re going before we start moving.

So, we think, “Okay, I want to be CEO in, however, many years. I’m going to reverse engineer my path in order to figure out exactly how I’m going to get there. And then I’m going to put on my blinders and I’m going to brute force, just make it happen because that’s what determination is,” and we miss out on so many opportunities and so much information about ourselves as we’re evolving and learning, and also the world as it’s evolving and learning.

And so, what we want to do instead is focus on the direction. And this is sort of the biggest place that we’ve been misled, I think, with traditional career guidance that says, like, have the five-year plan or the 10-year plan, and know exactly where you’re going. So, if you’re focusing on the direction, you’re focusing only on the single next directionally right step. That doesn’t mean, again, we don’t have an idea, a hypothesis of where we’re going.

So, if you imagine it’s a road trip, you might think, “Okay, I’m headed towards the West Coast,” which is different than, “I’m going to L.A. no matter what. No matter how many roadblocks there are, no matter how many detours, I am going to L.A.” to find out, when you get to L.A., that you actually don’t want to be in L.A., or that isn’t the best suited role or job or place for you.

So, instead we’re heading towards the West Coast and we’re allowing ourselves to launch and iterate, to use tech language, as we go. And that, I found, allows for so much more adjustment, flexibility, responsiveness, again, to our own selves and to the world around us, as all of these things are changing at a faster pace than they ever have before, and it allows us to evolve. So, that’s the first principle, focus on the direction, not the destination.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that. Thank you. And it’s intriguing, I loved when you said the word blinders, that resonated as the distinction in terms of directional versus destination. With the destination, we got the blinders, like, “Okay, just buckle down, grind, hustle, get her done.” But blinders, by their very definition, literally, I’m imagining a horse with the blinders on, it says, “You’re not looking around, you’re not observing, you’re not gathering the information.”

And yet, earlier in your story, you said, “I looked around and saw those in the elevated positions, those were also not what I wanted. Nobody was doing the thing that I wanted.” And I think that’s so huge, it’s like, “Are the blinders on or are the blinders off?” Because if they’re off and you’re observing, new stuff comes to light.

I’ve got a buddy who’s just on the cusp of the executive leagues at a major retailer. I want to keep it a little vague. And he’ll say the same thing, he’s like, “You know what? I thought I wanted to be a CEO and yet, when I observe CEOs and other executives, I don’t think that’s what I want. They actually seem to be working more than I’m working, and have more stress and responsibility and less time at home, and I’m already feeling like I’d like to spend more time at home with my two little ones and wife. So, I guess I don’t want to be a CEO?” And it was like quite a revelation for him.

Megan Hellerer
Yeah. So, I would say a couple things about that. So, in terms of your friend specifically, I love that he’s thinking about it that way. I would also caution that or I would question, if I were him, I would wonder if there is space to redesign what CEO looks like.

So, I wouldn’t just throw, like, “I don’t see any CEOs that look like the way I want to be a CEO, so I must not want to be a CEO.” Like, there may be room for him to design it in a way that works for him, especially because he’s going to be in a leadership position, or, again, he may say, “I don’t think I do want to be a CEO. What is directionally right for me? What’s like a one-degree turn? Is it something else in the C-suite?” Is it staying where he is for the next however many years? And then maybe he wants to be a CEO when he feels like it better suits his lifestyle at some later time.

There are many ways to look at this, but I love that he’s asking that question. And that is the opposite of blind ambition, in the sense that you aren’t looking around and you aren’t asking yourself the question. The moment you highlighted that I was recapping when I looked around and saw, “Oh, I actually don’t want this life that I have been working towards,” that was the moment my blinders came off. I wasn’t clear about that until those later moments. I was completely in the blinders, and this is where blind ambition comes from.

And a lot of people who come to me who are miserable, but have all the achievements and none of the fulfillment, all the success on paper, feel terrible, they’re like, “Maybe I’m just too ambitious. Is that the problem? Is ambition the problem?” And I feel like this question is coming up more and more. And the thing to me is that ambition is just the desire for impact, the desire for contribution, almost the desire for more life. There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think that’s a beautiful, wonderful thing, and it’s the type of ambition, the way and the how of the ambition.

So, the blind ambition is the destinational thinking, the pick the destination and decide no matter what you’re getting there. It’s sort of like the end justifies the means approach of navigating your career and your life. Aligned ambition is “Is this warmer? Is this colder?” launch and iterate, directionally right approach where you have an idea of where you’re heading, you’re not aimlessly wandering.

And maybe CEO has been a beacon for him, and that’s been incredibly effective as a direction, but it’s different than holding on so tightly in the blind ambition sense that it becomes a destination, and the only way that he can achieve success in his life.

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely. Okay. So, that’s a core principle right there. We are going directionally as opposed to strictly to a precise destination. We are not having blinders. Rather, eyes wide open, observing what are we seeing, what are we thinking, what is this information sharing about our emerging evolving hypothesis. Is there another key principle you reckon to keep in mind?

Megan Hellerer

Yes, and we’ve touched on it a little bit, so perhaps we don’t need to go into as much depth about it, but it’s launch and iterate. So, take an experimental approach to your career and your life, and this is especially important for overachievers, or perfectionists, where it’s like either you failed or you succeeded.

But when you take an experimental approach, it can really help to sort of loosen up your ability to try things because if you learn, if you get any more information from whatever you’re doing, it’s been a success. So, if we’re redefining success as learning, as where the only mistake or the only failure is not taking action, this gives us so much more freedom and so much more permission to figure out what works for us. And that is actually what tends to build the most effective, fulfilling, impactful, meaningful careers and lives, is a willingness to launch and iterate, and test and learn.

Pete Mockaitis
And when we’re launching, iterating, testing, and learning, do you have any favorite approaches by which we could do this that might be lower risk than, “Quit your job, move across the country, and do the thing?”

Megan Hellerer
Well, that’s the whole beauty of it. With a launch and iterate approach, with a directional approach, you never have to take gigantic leaps because every single step is just taking the next directionally right action. And so, I actually discourage people from making any gigantic sweeping decisions. This should be a lot of small tweaks, and then when the big decisions get there, they feel like just the next decision as opposed to some gigantic leap of faith.

So, your job is only to move the plot forward. If you made progress that day, you’re good to go. So, again, it’s not about quitting your job, or getting divorced, or moving across the country, or selling all your things, or switching industries, or any of that. And often that is impulsive and running away from something as opposed to running towards something.

Obviously, I had to do that but not everyone has to blow up their life, and my hope is that, had I had these frameworks and tools, I might not have had to do that. I may have been launching and iterating and testing and learning a lot earlier.

So, yes, small decisions are important. And whenever you’re feeling stuck, I encourage people just to, “Where’s my curiosity leading me? What’s one thing I can do that feels, that makes this feel warmer as opposed to colder, that’s moving me in the right direction as opposed to the wrong direction?” And following just that sort of simple calibration, if you make enough right turns, you’re going to end up in the right place.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And could you give us some examples of tiny, hotter, colder decisions?

Megan Hellerer
So I recently moved Upstate New York. I guess it’s been about a year or two now, so not that recent. But I grew up in New York City, I, obviously, did a stint in California, but I was like, “I’m New York for life,” and really thought I was never going to leave, but I haven’t really given it much thought. I was never like, “Where am I going to spend my life?” It just was like, “This is where I am.”

And in the process of writing my book, I realized I really needed to give myself a DIY writing retreat. And so, I rented a cabin in Upstate New York and went there just to focus and write this book. And I ended up in this one place and I was blown away by how much I loved it and how different it was than what it was in my head, and also how differently I experienced it at this point in my life versus other points in my life.

So, I went home, went back to our normal life but I kept thinking about it. So, the next summer, we decided to rent a house for the summer up in the similar area and try out for the summer what it was like there. And, again, I was like, “Wow, I really love it here.” And then I started thinking, “What if I don’t leave? What if we actually live here?” And that felt like a complete revelation. But instead of getting rid of our apartment and buying a house Upstate, and just like making it happen immediately, I was like, “I just need to take one more directionally right step.”

So, I asked the person who we were renting the house from, you know, what her plans were, and she was actually like, “Well, I happen to not be coming back, so I would consider renting this to you long term,” which is actually a big deal because we didn’t want to buy because we wanted to test.

So, we ended up staying in this house and renting for a while longer, and just testing and learning, because there were many variables that we needed to figure out. My husband has a job in the city, so he’s a professor, and so he does need to be there a few days a week. What was that going to look like? And so, we did that for six months, see how it feels, and we loved it.

And so, then when it turned out that she was going to sell the house, we ended up finding another place, looking around and deciding, “Okay, what are we going to do?” And we found the most perfect home, and it happened to be right around the same time that we found out we were pregnant and we were going to have room for the baby, and so it all sort of, like, worked out. There was a lot of synchronicities involved.

So, that’s an example of how some people might be like, “I need to figure out where I want my permanent home to be,” versus, “Wow, I’m just noticing I really like being here. What if we tried this out for a few more months?” or whatever it is that you have the possibility of doing. So, that’s not a job example. That’s another life example, but that is kind of the framework you can think about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, no, I actually love that right there. And what’s fun is it’s just starting with that directional, as opposed to destinational, and blinders off approach. When you went on that writing retreat, if you had a different mindset, you might not have noticed at all that you liked being there, it’s like, “Got to get the pages. Got to get the pages. What’s the word count goal for the day? Oh, not there yet. Got to hustle. Got to crank. Got to get more words on my writing retreat.” And it could just blow right past you, that, “Hey, this is actually kind of an awesome spot. I’m enjoying being here.”

Megan Hellerer
That’s exactly the point. And I love that you picked up on that, because one of the things I’ve found with people who are used to this blind ambition approach is that we have been taught, or we believe on some level, that our curiosity, our interests, or our joy are a distraction from the goal at hand. So, it’s sort of like, we actively ignore it.

So, for example, I mean, I could think of picking a major in college. I was like, “Oh, I love this creative writing thing.” Well, that is just a distraction from the very practical major that I need to decide on that I’m going to use, as opposed to seeing that as, “That’s really valuable information about what I care about, what I love doing, what excites me, what makes me, gets my creative juices flowing, all of that kind of thing.”

And so, most people, when you ask them, “What do you actually want?” don’t know because they’ve been ignoring it for so long. So, exactly that, had I had a different mindset, if somebody had said to me, “Do you like living here? Have you liked spending your three months here for the writing retreat?” I think I would have said, “I don’t know, that’s not the point of me being here. That’s completely irrelevant information,” versus allowing that information in.

So, one of the practices I tend to do with people a lot is learning how to allow that information, recognize that information, and just even register it. You don’t even necessarily have to do anything about it. But one of the first steps is what I say screenshotting your mind. So, when you’re having ideas or thoughts cross your mind, to get into the practice of noticing them, and you’re sort of sending a message to your brain, to your psyche, to your creative, whatever you want, of “I’m paying attention. I’m ready to capture these ideas.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and I love that so much in terms of like the joy, we could perceive it as a distraction from the real work, or I think we could be quick to write it off. And what comes to mind is a few times my wife has said while I’m just being silly with the kids, “Dada needs an improv class.” Because I’m being kind of kooky and silly and ridiculous, and I sort of immediately dismissed that in terms of, “Well, you know, hey, there’s a lot of going down with work, and the young kids, and this is not practical.”

But I think a better approach, steeped in these principles, would be to say, “Hmm, there is something to that. Like, there is a part of my silly, kooky nature that is meaningful and joyous, that isn’t getting a chance to be expressed as fully in my current set of roles and duties that’s worth reflecting on” as opposed to immediately dismissing, “Oh, improv class. Ah, I’m not going to drive all the way into the city for that. Ah, forget it.”

Megan Hellerer
Yeah, exactly. And that’s exactly the type of thing, because here’s the other surprising thing or at least surprising to me, curiosity, so an interest like that, like, “Huh, improv,” is the best proxy that we have for purpose. So, we spend so much time, “What is my purpose? What am I meant to do here?” We’re not going to be able to necessarily figure out the answer to that. I don’t think we have to have some broad mission statement.

The best thing we can do is figure out what our curiosity is telling us and know that that is going to lead us somewhere. So, if there’s something, when someone said, “Oh, improv class,” first of all, if it wasn’t interesting to you, if there wasn’t something in there that you were interested in, you wouldn’t even bother rejecting it, right? You would just be like, “Mm, yeah, no, that that’s not interesting to me.”

The fact that you, one, have noticed it, but two, actively are like, “No, I’m not doing that,” tells me that there’s something interesting in that to you. And then doing that, I would love to encourage you to explore, even just looking up improv classes, or maybe it’s a one-day workshop, or maybe it’s just going to more improv shows.

The lowest stakes thing that you can think of as a way to take another step, to explore this curiosity, because we don’t need to know where it’s going, and it doesn’t mean most people will jump to the destination, “Well, I’m not going to be a professional improv person,” or, “How am I going to use that in my life?” But instead, realizing it may not be that you do improv in some way, but maybe it sparks you, like just makes you so much more creative, in general, that suddenly you’re having all of these other ideas for a podcast or for whatever other things that you’re working on.

Or, maybe there is something there that you’re, again, it doesn’t have to be improv specifically, but maybe it moves to some other kind of performance, or you make some sort of connection that ends up being something that becomes really meaningful for you. These are the breadcrumbs; these are the clues that are telling us, “This is where the meaning is. This is where the fulfillment is,” and we’re so used to ignoring it.

Another analogy I like to use here is that it’s like cravings for food. So, the cravings are meant to tell you where the nourishment is, right? If you are lacking vitamin C, you might start craving an orange. For us, the craving, the curiosity craving for improv, for silliness, for goofiness, for whatever that self-expression is for you, is your body’s, your psyche’s, your spirit’s way of telling you that there’s some sort of nourishment fulfillment purpose there for you, and that you need to follow that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Well, Megan, tell me, any other top do’s and don’ts you want to make sure to put out there for the under-fulfilled overachievers?

Megan Hellerer
The first thing that I want to highlight is that many people say that this, they feel like doing this work, this reflection on like, “Where’s my curiosity leading me? What am I interested in? What do I care about? What is fulfilling for me?” is selfish or self-centered.

And what I want to say is that I really believe and have found that everybody benefits when we are doing the work that is most aligned for us, when we’re living the life that is most aligned for us, because we’re not only happier and more fulfilled, but we are giving other people permission for them to do what’s most aligned for them, and we’re also doing our best and most impactful work.

You’re actually not being helpful to your team for you to be in a job that is not aligned for you. Donate that job to someone else who actually is really aligned for that work, who can actually show up and want to be doing that work. A lot of people feel like, “Oh, but I’d be abandoning my team.” You’re actually abandoning your team by doing work that isn’t really where you want to be doing and where you could be having such a more impact.

The way that you contribute most to the world, the way that you can benefit most to your community, to the people around you, to your family, is by doing the work to figure out what is most aligned for you because that’s where you’ll be the most impactful. And this ties into the second point, which is another pushback I get, which is, “But what if I can’t afford to quit my job?” or, “What if I can’t afford to do this kind of work?”

And this is completely valid, in the sense that coaching is not available to everyone, and most people can’t afford to quit their job, and the good news is you don’t have to. But we are making decisions every single day in the life that we’re already living. And my suggestion would be to start asking yourself in all of those decisions, “Is this directionally right or is this directionally wrong? Is this warmer or is this colder? And how can I make it more directionally right?”

This could be in what you’re eating for dinner, “Am I doing this because it’s something I think I should do or because I actually want to?” in what books you’re reading, what podcasts you’re listening to. If you can start to make all of your decisions, steering them more in the directionally right, most-aligned-for-you way, this is going to have huge ripple effects on the rest of your life and costs nothing.

Exploring your curiosity doesn’t mean spending a couple thousand dollars on a program. It could mean taking a book out from the library. It could mean listening to a free podcast. It could mean doing a Google search. It could mean sending an email to someone to have a conversation about them. Take an action, any action, towards your curiosity and advance the plot and you’re doing your job.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Megan Hellerer
One of my favorite quotes that is actually the best analogy I know for directional living came from E.L. Doctorow, which is, “It’s like driving in a car at night. You can only see as far as the headlights in front of you, but you can make the whole trip that way.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Megan Hellerer
I think these are depressing studies, but I think they’re important, which is engagement at work is at an 11-year low, where only 30% of people feel engaged with their work. That’s a Gallup poll. And only 17% find it to be a source of meaning, which is half of the rate from four years ago, and that’s a Pew study. And both of those are post-pandemic. This isn’t like the middle of the pandemic when there are many other issues going on.

We have a huge issue with engagement and meaning and fulfillment at work. The way we are working is not working and it’s only getting worse. This problem isn’t going away. And I found that those numbers to be shocking and really important for that reason.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Megan Hellerer
The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Megan Hellerer
I would say this inner navigation system, calibration and barometer of simply asking, “Is this warmer or is this colder?” when I’m making decisions to make sure that they’re aligned for me. And I use it for everything, including coming on this podcast. I get an invitation for a podcast, and I ask, “Is this warmer? Is this colder? Does this feel directionally right or not?”

And I do say no to podcast invitation events that don’t feel aligned for me. So, I think that is sort of the cheat code to keep it really simple if you’re confused, “Is this warmer or is this colder?” I think that’s the easiest, simplest, most basic, and most effective tool for decision making there is.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with your clients; they bring back up to you often?

Megan Hellerer
I think simply the terminology of under-fulfilled overachiever and people having a word that resonates with them to articulate what they’ve been struggling with, and then also the vocabulary of the old way of doing things that we’ve been taught, destinational thinking, and the new way of doing things, directional thinking. I think having words to capture this tends to be one of the most revelatory things for people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in, where would you point them?

Megan Hellerer

My website is my name, so MeganHellerer.com, and I’m also on Instagram, @meganhellerer. And my website also has connections to all my socials and books and more information on my philosophy and all of that good stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Megan Hellerer
I would suggest asking yourself “Is this aligned for me?” and trying to be radically honest with yourself, tell yourself the truth about your life. And if the answer is no, or any part of that is yes or no, figure out what are the parts that are aligned and what are the parts that aren’t, and see what you can do to tweak the parts that aren’t. It doesn’t involve blowing up your life. Small tweaks can make a huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, Megan, this has been so much fun. I wish you many happy directions.

Megan Hellerer
Thank you so much, Pete. Have a great day.

Sep 23
0

996: Tackling Work Stressors and Transitions with Dr. Tessa West

By | Podcasts | One Comment

 

Tessa West shares her method for making the necessary changes that lead to greater job satisfaction.

You’ll Learn

  1. How your body tells you when it’s time to change jobs
  2. How to not be overwhelmed by the stresses at work 
  3. The hidden curriculum that helps you succeed at work 

About Tessa

Tessa West is a Professor of Psychology at New York University and a leading expert in the science of interpersonal communication. Her work focuses on questions such as, why is it so hard to give honest, critical feedback? and how do class, race, and cultural differences make communication in the workplace so difficult, and what can we do to improve it?

Tessa’s work has been covered by Scientific American, the New York Times, ABC World News, TIME, Harper’s Bazaar, the Financial Times, Forbes, CNBC, CNN, The Guardian, The Globe and Mail, Bloomberg, Strategy and Business, and the US Supreme Court. She has appeared on the Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore, CNN, and Good Morning America, and is a regular contributor to the Wall Street Journal. She is the author of the book Jerks at Work: Toxic Coworkers and What To Do About Them and the upcoming Job Therapy: Finding Work That Works For You. 

Resources Mentioned

Tessa West Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Tessa, welcome back.

Tessa West
Thank you so much for having me back. I’m super excited.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I am excited to talk about your book, Job Therapy, and I just think we’ve got to hear of a job story you had at a Hollywood Video. Lay it on us.

Tessa West
All right. When I was in high school, I worked at Hollywood Video, which for you, young people, is a place where you would actually physically go to rent a movie in VHS format, which I don’t think even exists anymore. And I had this amazing manager who was dealing coke from the back room.

Pete Mockaitis
Cocaine. Illegal drug.

Tessa West
Yeah, cocaine. Cocaine from the back room, and, also, was probably stealing from the cash register. And we all got fired one day, corporate came in and axed us all. And this was a little bit of a problem for me because when I went to college at UC Santa Barbara, I was just blacklisted from all Hollywood Videos, and that was kind of the only video rental store in the neighborhood where I lived. And so, I could never rent from them again. I not only lost my job because of the cocaine-dealing boss, but I also could never open an account in a Hollywood Video ever again, and that just totally cramped my style for, like, the four years I was in college.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m imagining you like hanging out outside the Hollywood Video, it’s like, “Hey, hey, Mister, can you rent me a movie?”

Tessa West
Totally. I’m like, “I’ll pay you an extra dollar. You give me, like, the latest new release wall,” whatever came out. I think it was “The Negotiator” came out, and I was pretty bummed. Yeah, it was not great.

Pete Mockaitis
So, they thought you were involved in these illegal activities, but you were just around him.

Tessa West
I was 16. I mean, I knew some shady stuff was going on in the back room. There were times I wasn’t allowed back there. But it’s a minimum-wage teenager job, and it was just much easier for corporate to just come in, clean house, fire all of us, instead of sort of interrogating who was involved and who wasn’t.

And I think a lot of people kind of end up getting caught in these situations at work where there’s a baddie and they get sucked into all that drama, and it’s just much easier to fire all 20 employees and just start fresh than to figure out who’s guilty of dealing the cocaine, or aiding and abetting in the cocaine dealing, or whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. You know, it’s amazing that last time we talked about bad bosses and toxic coworkers, and this didn’t even come up.

Tessa West
I know. This isn’t even my worst boss. This is like my 10th worst boss. The weird part was I didn’t even really care until I couldn’t rent there anymore. That’s when I got pissed.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, we’re talking now about your book Job Therapy: Finding Work That Works for You. So, I guess that’s one tip, avoid Hollywood Video and cocaine-dealing bosses as a first piece on the checklist. But you have much more wisdom, I know, than that to share with us. Could you kick us off with anything that’s particularly surprising that you’ve discovered here?

Tessa West
Yes, I think a lot of us have really mixed feelings about our jobs. I was surprised when I interviewed people for this book at how ambivalent people feel. It was a lot kind of in the air with people being really miserable at work, tons of Gallup polls, all that business of everyone wants to quit, no one’s happy. But when I actually sat down with people, they would talk out of both sides of their mouth, “I love this job.” “I hate this job.”

“I’m totally committed to this job. It’s what defines me. It’s my identity. But I fantasize about doing this other thing that’s completely different from that. But just to remind you, Tessa, during this interview, I really do love this job. I promise.” And so, you see kind of those mixed emotions you see when people are thinking about any kind of relationship they have, even if that’s with a parent that they have a fraught relationship with, or a romantic relationship.

It’s kind of this love, hate, back and forth, hot, cold business that I think a lot of us are actually struggling with, which is much more realistic than just people loving or hating something or wanting to quit. I think there’s just a lot of kind of ambivalence out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, that really resonates and hits home with regard to, it is a mixed bag, every job, every relationship. I’m reminded of a comedian who talked about the city of Chicago, which is like, “The long, cold, miserable winters,” and say, “What are you doing here? You should just leave. You should just leave,” like a bad relationship. He’s like, “No, you should see how Chicago treats me in the summer.”

Tessa West
Yeah, New Yorkers are the same, we’re like, “I hate this place but I really couldn’t live anywhere else because every other place I would hate even more, but I really do hate it here.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, what a complicated relationship we have then with our jobs. How do we even begin to unpack then whether we are in our New York of a job or we really do need to get out of here?

Tessa West
I really think the only way to really unpack this is to measure your feelings for a while. I’m a scientist, so I’m a huge fan of collecting data on yourself, and really doing it, not just trying to recall how you feel, or how you felt over the past month, because I think a lot of us fall victim to some of the basic biases that we fall victim to when we’re falling out of love with a person.

So, we’re super sensitive to things like intermittent reinforcement. When we’re questioning our careers, if your boss is really nice to you, or maybe you just get an added bonus you didn’t expect. That actually makes you feel a hundred times better about your job than it probably should because you’re in this fragile place, and so you don’t actually realize that you’re falling victim to these kinds of things, that you’re overly-sensitive to reinforcement when you’re questioning your career, that you’re misremembering how you were treated or how you felt.

The only way to really get a handle on that is to look for consistency in how you feel and to measure yourself for a couple of weeks, or even up to a month, and really look for those patterns. And so, in this book, I just put a ton of questionnaires that have been vetted and created by psychologists, and really try to help people play scientists to their own experience so that they can understand it from almost like a third-party perspective, from an objective observer’s perspective, to kind of remove some of those biases that we’re all going to fall victim to when we start questioning something, when we start falling out of love with something.

Pete Mockaitis
Very intriguing. So then, as we measure things, well, I’m tempted to go into all kinds of detail about how we do that, and let’s do some of that. I’m thinking about dating again, in terms of, there are folks, it’s like, yes, they would love to date the super-rich, super brilliant, super gorgeous, super hilarious, super kind, whatever mythical human that doesn’t actually exist. And if that person did, they’d probably wouldn’t want to be with you. No offense. No offense, Tessa. You’re delightful.

But I mean, when I hear people, sometimes I’ve heard those who are single and not yet settled down, it’s like, “Well, you know, I just haven’t met the person.” “Well, what are you looking for?” It’s like, “Oh, well, I don’t think that person is real or exists.” I think, likewise, we can do that with our jobs, it’s like, “Oh, I guess I just haven’t really found the perfect job yet or the one of a job yet.”

So can you just maybe give us some very rough guidelines in terms of, “If you’re in this kind of zone, probably wrong job, get out of there. If you’re in this kind of zone, you got it pretty good, you know. And if you’re in if you’re looking for this kind of zone, I’m sorry that’s not real”? Can you just kindly orient us to reality for a bit?

Tessa West
Yes, I’m happy to do that. I studied dating and relationships, too, so you will hear all those metaphors come out of my mouth today. So, I think the first thing is, you need to really think seriously about what stresses you out at work, and how much you can anticipate those stressors. The number one reason why people are actually miserable at work is because they, (a), can’t anticipate stressors, or they’re doing a bad job at it. Most of the time, we actually can, if we write it down, see it coming.

And, (b), they’re very bad at bouncing back from how those stressful situations impact their productivity, their sleep, and their other relationships. And so, if you are in a job where, if you say in the morning, think about what’s going to stress you out, in the evening, write down what actually stressed you out, and you can’t predict that.

And those unanticipated stressors screw up your communication with your spouse, make you task-switch too much, make you self-interrupt, interfere with your ability to communicate, all these kinds of distal outcomes, you’re in a bad place. I don’t care how great the job is on paper, unanticipated stressors, and your inability to kind of put stopgaps in place and prevent the bleed from that stressful event to your productivity and to your other aspects of your life that you care about, you’re in trouble.

And that’s different for everyone. For some people, that’s being interrupted all the time. They can’t control the flow of work. For other people, it’s just being late. They can’t stand it when they can’t control how long it’s going to take them to drive to work and where they’re going to park. So, you have to figure out what those triggers are. And I think most of us don’t actually put enough weight on low-level daily stressors and how much they impact us, but they really can screw you up because they can affect your sleep, how often you get colds, your diet, and all of this other stuff that has nothing to do with work, that then feeds back into work.

So, I’d say measure those things. That’s kind of, you know, it really comes down to control over those things. I’d say the other dimension that really matters is how identified you want to be with your career, how much you want it to define you, and how much that career is loving you back. And if there’s a huge mismatch, if you are, like, in love with this career, it’s everything to you, when it’s going well, you feel good, when it’s going poorly, you feel terrible, and it’s just not giving you those signs that it’s loving you as much as you want to love it, it’s an unrequited love situation. That’s a bad place to be.

I think, and, again, all of us can be, we can find that match in different places. Anchoring just on income and things like that, I think is a mistake, as you talked about, you know, finding the model who’s funny and rich, there’s going to be a mismatch there because you’re going to fall in love with that person and they’re not going to love you back.

So, I’d say that identity match and control over your stressors, those are the main things. I think if you have those things in check, you can kind of play around with those other dimensions and find happiness at work. But those are really those things that are kind of deal breakers, I think, for most people.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s really intriguing to zero in on these elements. Because it sounds like, is it fair to say, in your research, these trump the other things in terms of, I say, “Hey, you know what? I find my job meaningful. I find it challenging. I enjoy my co-workers. I feel like I’m learning and growing and attaining mastery. Like, I’ve got a lot of good things that make this job good”? But, if the stressor situation and the identity situation isn’t working for me, is that enough to just outweigh it and say, “I should probably get out of here”?

Tessa West
Definitely the stressors are. I think the things you just mentioned feed into the identity. So, if your colleagues love you, if you’re finding purpose in the work, the job is probably loving you back as much as you’re loving it. And so, I’d see those as sort of like an outcome of that identity match, “You know, I feel highly identified with this job and it’s bringing me satisfaction.” Both pieces of identity are important. You need to feel satisfied with that identity and also feel like you’re getting something from it.

And then when you have those pieces, you love your coworkers, you’re willing to kind of step in at 10:00 p.m. and do the extra thing because you feel like the job is loving you back, so those are outcomes of those things. Stressors are like throwing wrenches into all of those things, “I have great communication at work, but I never know how long it’s going to take me to get there. And some days I get there an hour early, and it’s great. Other times, I get there an hour late and I’m sweating and stressed the rest of the day.” Those things absolutely throw a wrench in the relationship with your career.

So, I think you just really have to pay attention to those things, and don’t let yourself be talked out of them because the income is good, because the comp package is good, and people do this with relationships, “I’m dating a rich guy. Who cares if he treats me like crap.” It does, it matters. You’re not going to care about the money when he’s yelling at you or calling you ugly. You’re just not. And the same is true at work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us a rundown of some of these unanticipated stressors that pack a big punch and show up all the time for folks?

Tessa West
I think the main ones are things like your boss shows up and puts a meeting on your calendar that you didn’t plan for. Commute is another huge one that people can’t stand. Senior leadership showing up. Absorbing the roles of other people. So, I did a study for this book based on an NPR kind of short called “Nobody Told Me That,” where I asked people what are the biggest surprises they encountered at work.

And it’s almost always, “I was hired to do X and now I’m doing Y. I was hired to showcase art in a gallery but really all I do is lift 120-pound boxes of art, but no one told me that like lifting heavy objects was part of the job.” And those kinds of, like, tack-on tasks are super common at work. I think 80% of us are doing them, but they take away from your job. They often have nothing to do with what gets you promoted, and they’re super stressful because you don’t know how to fit them into your job.

And so, you have to do a lot of digging to kind of figure out if those are going to crop up. But those unanticipated extra roles or jobs of the person who called in sick, or they fire the person who’s in charge of that, those are huge, and they tend to be small asks, 10-, 20-minute asks, not heavy lifts, but they really eat into people’s wellbeing. And you can feel your blood pressure going up when you’re in the middle of something and someone comes and asks you to do one of these things, like lifting a heavy box for them that you did not sign up for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, these are the kinds of stressors. And then, I’m curious, just how much is too much? I mean, it sounds like every job is going to have a little bit of ebb and flow and unpredictability. How do we make that determination?

Tessa West
The best way to do this isn’t to ask yourself, “Have I hit my wall?” It’s to actually map out what the outcomes of those stressors are. And so, our instinct is to think about the things that stress us out and then try to kind of reframe them in a positive way, “Yes, I had to lift that heavy box, but this is part of what it takes to climb up at work.”

I urge you not to try to do that kind of reframing exercise. Instead, measure how often you’re lifting those heavy boxes, and measure your sleep every night. If what you find is, if you have three days in a row of, say, an unexpected stressor, a late commute, a calendar invite with no notice, a heavy box, and then you can see that, say, for the next five days your sleep is screwed up, this is what happens to me, my unanticipated stressors are cumulative.

One, I’m fine; two or more, I don’t sleep for a week, that’s when you know you’re in trouble, and so you really have to see those associations. Don’t assume you know what they are because they’re often a little bit distal. The way stressors work is they tend to not impact us immediately. They tend to be cumulative and distal.

So, if you’re stressed out right now, you’re going to get a cold in two weeks. That’s how long it takes for your immune system to take the hit, for it to get down, for you to get infected with something, for you to be symptomatic. So, we often don’t see the connection between the stressor and the outcome. The only way to know is to measure it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s talk about these measurings. So, one is sleep, and I’m sporting an Oura ring right now, and that’s cool. Or you could have a Fitbit or Apple Watch or something or just notice, “Hey, that sleep was short. I woke up at 5:00 a.m. against my will. What’s that about?” Or, “I went to bed at 11:00, and somehow didn’t end up actually falling asleep until much later.”

So, you just sort of, you notice. Sleep is worse, outside my control. It’s not like I was having the time of my life partying somewhere and I got to bed late. But rather, my body just did not comply with my sleep request. So, there’s one indicator. What are some of the other things we should be observing and tracking?

Tessa West
Weird diet, skipping meals, eating junk food, eating your feelings, drinking, those types of things. Low-level conflict is another one that we often see. So, if you have, say, two or three days of low-level stressors at work, you’re going to end up fighting more with your kids, with your spouse. You’re going to yell at your kid for watching too much iPad, those kinds of things, which in the moment, you have a reason, “My kid was really grinding me. He refused to put down the iPad, so I yelled at him.”

The real reason is, “You know, I had a fight with my boss this morning, and I never came down from that kind of cortisol boost, and now I’m exhausted. I have no ability to sort of cognitively override that,” so low-level conflict at home. And then the other kind of unanticipated one is self-interruptions at work. So, I have a chapter in my book called “The Torn Between Places,” where I figured out that most of the time when we are interrupted at work, we do it to ourselves.

We self-distract. We check our phones. We minimize windows to open other windows. We shop on Zoom calls. And we often do this when we are cognitively depleted, meaning like we’re out of mental resources to not do it. And when you’re stressed, you tend to kind of eat away at those resources, and so you find yourself texting, checking your phone constantly at work. That’s another outcome of feeling kind of chronic low-level stress.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really intriguing and good to flag because if we’re stressed, tired, out of cognitive resources, sometimes you might assume, “Well, the thing you’re going to do is immediately go to sleep.” And yet, it’s funny, it’s like the suppression power of being depleted means that, “No, what we do is just what we really want to do and have been suppressing.”

I remember back in the pandemic days, there was a time my wife was sick and it was all me. Full, 100% childcare, it’s Pete, the dad’s time to shine, and it’s like, “Okay.” And so, I thought it’s always kind of intense and kind of exhausting, and I always also try to keep a few things in the air, a little bit with work in terms of, like, respond to a few things and whatnot. Just not totally dropping the ball there.

And it was so funny, you would think that after those days, I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m just going to just collapse immediately into bed.” And what I found myself doing, it was so weird, it was like, I went and played video games, and I don’t do much of that in general, but it’s just like, “This just really is what needs to happen right now.”

And so, you’re highlighting an interesting phenomenon in the human experience. I don’t think I’ve heard someone articulate quite this way before, is when that’s happening, that’s a sign that we are mentally depleted and/or stressed.

Tessa West
I think if you find yourself seeking out alone time at weird hours to do weird things that you never used to do, and you’re sort of justifying that as alone time, “I went through this as a new parent,” “I went through this in the pandemic,” and not because you really don’t get any alone time but because you’re too depleted to do any work, and your cortisol hasn’t dropped enough so you can’t fall asleep. So, there’s kind of this, like, bottom-up top-down problem of like physiologically your body can’t actually relax enough to sleep.

You know, things like cortisol, they peak in the morning, they peak in the afternoon, and then they’re supposed to go down, so that by the time you’re ready to go to sleep, you don’t have all this, like, adrenaline and all this cort in your body. But when you’ve been stressed, you break out of that cycle and so your brain can’t do anything, but it wants to play video games, it wants to watch Netflix, it wants to do something distracting that isn’t sleep but doesn’t involve social interaction, which is kind of depleting.

So, if you find yourself wanting to play video games at 2:00 o’clock in the morning or watching TV instead of sleep, that’s usually a sign that your body is too physiologically strained to sleep, but your mind is too exhausted to do anything real, and I think that’s just a red flag a lot of us aren’t really trained to look out for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, thanks for flagging that one. Flag of the flag. Anything else we should be observing?

Tessa West
In terms of stress, I think anything with disrupted patterns. If you usually exercise and then, all of a sudden, you’re not motivated to. If you want to disengage socially, that’s a huge kind of red flag that you’re probably pretty stressed out. Social interactions tend to be depleting for most people in some way, even if they’re good, even if they’re engaging. Those are the kinds of things we tend to be a little bit withdrawing from.

And then I think the other thing you should be really attuned to is stress contagion. So, I do a lot of research on how the stress we feel spreads to other people, and how, when we’re really stressed, we’re actually hyper-attuned to the stress cues of others. So, if I’m stressed and then I interact with a co-worker whose voice is a little bit hyper, who’s really fidgety, who is avoiding eye contact, I’m going to be like super sensitive to those cues and even more susceptible to catching that person’s stress.

So, if you find yourself getting ramped up when you’re around a hyper or stressed-out colleague, you can feel your heart rate going up, you can feel your palms sweating, you’re probably already kind of at a disadvantage. You’re a little bit stressed out, and you’re going to be super susceptible to catching the stress of other people around you, and so you kind of have to regulate that and take yourself out of those social contexts.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And you’re also talking about some assessments and questions that you can ask yourself and record answers to regularly. What are some of the potentially insightful items on those assessments?

Tessa West
I think if you want to go at this really simply, the easiest thing you can do is, in the morning, ask yourself what you’re the most worried about going into the day, and how your sleep was that night. And in the evening, ask yourself was that thing that you were worried about actually that stressful and what unanticipated stressors you faced?

What I find in my book is that about 50% of the time, the things we’re the most worried about in the morning tend to not actually be that bad, mostly because we can put steps in place to make ourselves feel better, to prepare for them mentally so that we are challenged, we’re not threatened. But when we looked at people’s so-called unanticipated stressors, they were things that they actually encounter really regularly.

So, the irony is they’re not actually that unanticipated when they thought about it. They just didn’t anticipate them in the moment. And those are those things I talked about, like a commute running late, or that calendar invite, that in the moment you didn’t anticipate, but if I asked you, “How often has this happened?” most people say, “Oh, it actually happens pretty frequently.”

So, they’re not actually processing these things as frequent stressors. They’re processing them as unanticipated until I tell them to write them down, and they’re like, “Oh, yeah, actually, I actually deal with this like once a week.” So, I think that’s the simplest thing you can do is kind of measure those patterns.

And then I think the key reason why you should do this, not only just to learn about your own body, your own experiences, but if you are to look for a new job, if you’re to start networking with people, you know exactly sort of what to ask for, what red flags are going to spike your blood pressure. So, you can ask questions like, “How often does the boss put unanticipated meetings on the calendar?”

If you’ve identified that as something that really stresses you out, you want to avoid that in your next job. But you really have to be like very kind of systematic and learning your own triggers so that you know exactly what to ask and when during those networking conversations during those job interviews.

Pete Mockaitis
So, it sounds like merely identifying the patterns and anticipating the stressors prior to them occurring is useful and powerful for your own resilience in and of itself. So that’s cool. Great.

Tessa West
Yeah, absolutely. We got to learn what makes us not sleep, and, surprisingly, people don’t actually know. Scientists know. We can run statistics on you and tell you, but if I was to ask you, “Why didn’t you sleep last night?” You’re going to make up all kinds of things, from the room was too hot, to this or that, and it probably has very little to do with those things. You just don’t know because it’s something that happened three days ago that’s impacting your sleep.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, then I’m curious, one thing that’s in our control is to say, “Oh, this job has a ton of the things that trigger me. It’s time for another job.” So that’s one thing we could do, is make the switch. I’m curious about what are some of the things we might be able to do to, since you’re highlighting here, that stress can be a sneaky little bugger who has negative impacts days and weeks later than the actual inciting incident occurred? So that seems to suggest that it would be in our interest to proactively do some things about how we are handling stress so as to flourish all the better. So, lay it on us, what should we do there?

Tessa West
Yeah, I think here’s the good news. You have a lot more control over the impact of stress and how frequently you encounter these things than you realize. I think the good news is most of the stressors that are actually anticipated are things you can control to some degree. So, if you figure out, for instance, that your boss tends to put those unanticipated meetings on your calendar, once you sort of track the data, you realize it’s occurring every other Thursday or something like that, or you can figure out what that pattern is with your boss, then you can kind of put those blocks in your day.

I think one of the main things that stress people out is not getting their list of things done in the day, but if they actually figure out why, it’s through self-interruptions. There are things you can do to kind of prevent self-interruptions. If you’re being interrupted by other people, I talk in this book about how you can look around the environment and figure out sort of who’s interrupting you and when. Is it because their office is close? Is it because their office is not close, and they don’t know how to systematically interrupt you?

So, tracking these things, learning your own environment, and then putting stopgaps in place is huge. I think once I figured out what stressed me out, which was disappointing people, not getting them something done in time, and then I was thinking, “Okay, why am I disappointing them? Am I taking on too much? Sure, maybe I’m taking on too much,” but that wasn’t actually the reason. The real reason was, during my smart time every day, which was from 8:00 to 10:00 a.m., I was interrupting myself up to 15 times to check my LinkedIn to see who liked a post.

This is embarrassing, but I will admit that this happened. And once I started tracking my own behaviors, I realized I have this weird tick where I want to see how popular I am on LinkedIn, and it’s usually in the morning and that’s conflicting with my smart time, and when I don’t get my smart time, and I don’t get the thing done, that then leads me to disappoint people. So, if I’m 100% honest with myself, I have complete control over that daisy chain of events that’s leading to the stressor.

It took me a really long time to figure out what it was. But once I did, all I did was put away LinkedIn for those two hours, and it totally solved the problem. And that’s kind of a simple example, but I think, once you are honest with yourself about what you’re actually doing, what situations you’re putting yourself in to potentially exacerbate these triggers or allow them to happen, if you have a commute, you just have to plan for the max. You know, if it’s between 30 and 60 minutes, just always assume 60 minutes.

Things like that, I think we have a lot more control over, but you do have to play detective of your own behaviors, of your own triggers, of your own weaknesses, and admit that you have them, and then instead of band-aiding problems, my sleep deprivation, I bought all those cold sheets that they tell you, “Okay, well, it’s probably too warm in your room.” So, I bought those.

That wasn’t really the issue. It was conflict with someone at work that had happened like up to two days before that. Once I figured that out, I didn’t need the cold sheets and my sleep was fine. But you do have to do the homework and do the digging, but most people can actually figure it out.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And that’s really cool how sometimes, when you do the detective work, you’re on the case and you see, “Aha, it’s because of this, and I can make this shift. And then as a result, things will things be hunky-dory.” So that’s super. I’m curious, if you discover some stuff that is less in your control, sort of like no matter what you do, this colleague is going to critique your work.

And not that they’re being a total jerk about it, but they’re just going to be like, “Oh, you know, you should do this. Oh, why didn’t you do that? You know, and that’s just, okay.” That’s just kind of the way they are. Maybe you’ve even asked them, “Hey, you know, I’d really appreciate it. You know, I work best under these kinds of collaborative conditions.” Okay, whatever. You’ve done all you could do and still, stuff happens, and it’s being served at you. How do we best deal with those pieces?

Tessa West
Yeah, I think, you know, my first book is called Jerks at Work, and it’s like, try all those strategies, and if it doesn’t work, then you need to go into Job Therapy and learn how to network to find a new job. I do think, I don’t want to be Pollyannish and think you can solve all your problems. I do think controllability is a huge piece.

Once you figure out what needs to be controlled, what the problem is, if you can’t control that in much the same way that you can’t fix a marriage by yourself, if your partner is like, “Screw this, I’m not interested in therapy. I’m not interested in doing any reparative work,” that’s when you have to start exploring new things.

What I don’t want people to do is think that that means quit and then start applying. I think you need to start having those kind of 15-minute conversations with strangers while you’re still employed, because a lot of us have a grass-is-greener idea, and we don’t actually know whether we’re going to face the same thing in another job that we’re facing now.

And I think the easiest thing you can do is reach out to people who are in your organization or outside of it, or in your industry, and I know people don’t like networking, but I think of networking conversations more about information-seeking and asking them about their jobs and less about talking about yourself, just to get a feel for what the day-in-the-life is of other jobs, and that should be your only goal, “What is the day in the life like of this job, at this company, at this role?”

Really simple mundane questions about, “What do you do every day? What does it look like? How loud is it? Who are your colleagues? How much control do you have over how you see them?” Those kinds of low-level things. You want to reach out to as many people as you can to have those conversations to see what it’s like on the other side, instead of assuming that it’s going to be better because often it’s actually not so great on the other side, and you kind of have to bide your time a little bit before you start reaching out or you start applying for new things.

But I think that that very first step is just talking to people in those companies, and just saying, “Hey, can you tell me, like, what your day-to-day is? What do you do like from 9:00 to 5:00, from 9:00 to 10:00, 10:00 to 11:00? What’s that look like?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that specificity there. And I’m curious, while we’re biding our time, we’re doing our research, we’re talking to some people, are there any sort of like first-aid strategies you recommend for, we’re getting blasted by work stressors all the time? How do we just kind of deal and cope better? You suggested not reframing, “Well, this is just part of what you have to do to get ahead.” So, if that’s something that we don’t want to do, what’s something we do want to do?

Tessa West
I think the easiest thing you can do to kind of regulate, and this, actually, this is going to sound like a weird connection, but it comes out of the “Intimate Partner Violence” literature. So, how do you get from ten to one on, like, that anger scale? Is just taking yourself out of the situation, going for a walk, or shutting yourself in your office for ten minutes alone? Don’t interact with anyone. Don’t go complain immediately to a colleague if you’re stressed.

Our instinct is to want to sort of, like, explode our negative emotions onto others in an effort to get them to regulate it for us, to get them to make us feel better, to complain. And I think that instinct is fine for maybe later on, but at first just take a couple minutes, I think, and go for a walk, or have a cup of coffee. I think the best emotion regulation strategy in the “Intimate Partner Violence” literature is count to 100 alone in a room. That’s the best predictor of getting people to, like, not want to punch someone because it actually helps downregulate emotions at the basic physiologic level.

So, your blood pressure goes down, your heart rate goes down. You need to do the things to get your body to change before your mind can. And I think for some people, they’re good at meditating, I’m not. But I can take 10 minutes to, like, listen to music or something like that. Just do that a couple of times, I think, is the easiest and the best strategy people can do.

And I think building your physical space in a way that’s comfortable is also really important. And temperature matters, sound matters, so as much control over your little environmental, you know, whatever kind of makes you happy in your environment, those creature comforts is really important.

Pete Mockaitis
You talk about “Intimate Partner Violence” literature, I guess I’m just thinking about, like, children and their emotional regulation pieces. It seems like many of these really do still apply to us.

Tessa West
Yeah, timeout, self-induced time out. It’s the same. When it comes to emotion regulation, there’s only so many ways to skin a cat, and you don’t actually need to be that complicated about it. It really just comes down to taking deep breaths and getting your heart rate down. Once your body is calm, then your mind will follow.

But I think we often want to do something immediately that feels good, that feels like a release, and that usually means word vomiting to our colleague. And that’s the thing I would avoid because that leads to stress contagion and all that kind of yucky business.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we’ve immediately managed our stresses, we’re doing some research. What are some of the other key steps you recommend that we undergo when we’ve determined, “Yep, it’s time to make a switch”?

Tessa West
I think that kind of the number one thing is talking to strangers. I think 15-minute conversations are key. In the book, I talk about how you can reach, how you can write a cold email to someone and get them to actually write you back. I had to do this for the book. I was shocked at how much people were willing to talk about themselves. What they weren’t willing to do is have a conversation where I sold myself to them for no reason, you know, like, “I’m on the job market, I’m looking for something, and I’m going to tell you how great I am.”

No one would reply to emails like that. Not that I was doing that, but people often reach out in an effort to impress. And I think, instead, you want to reach out and say, “I have these three questions about before you started this job, nobody told me that. How would you answer that?” I think little things like that. I think the job interview process is a place where we often have terrible communication. We don’t have honest interviews, like we don’t have first dates.

I think it’s really important to remind yourself that, during that early kind of sourcing stage where you’re learning about a job, you’re talking to a hiring manager, you need a little bit of tension in those conversations where you’re asking tough questions. People avoid that because they think it makes them look bad or ungrateful, but you can onlDy kind of build intimacy with some tension in close relationships, and I think that’s true with job interviews.

You want to ask those tough questions. People like it. It turns out it looks like you’re looking for long-term fit. So, I think asking some difficult questions to assess fit, to find red flags. My favorite question is, “What does it look like to fail at this job?” People always can answer that one because they’ve seen it a million times. It’s better than asking, “What does it look like to succeed?” because that tends to be vague. Failure tends to be specific. So, questions like that. I think you just have to be willing to have like super honest conversations and listen to people and not sell yourself. At least, that’s not your initial goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Any other tips as we’re all walking this journey?

Tessa West
Don’t feel afraid to get rejected when you’re reaching out to people you don’t know. People are very nervous these days about looking awkward. I study social awkwardness, and it largely lives in our heads more than how it manifests behaviorally. And we’re a little out of practice with talking to people we don’t know, and I think that’s why people aren’t dating as much. It’s why they are afraid to have coffee or a Zoom call with a stranger. But everyone’s in the same boat, so it’s okay.

Do not think that you can learn about a job by sitting on your couch and reading websites and Glassdoor stuff, or even and getting those LinkedIn certifications, or whatever. You really can only learn about it through interpersonal communication and talking to people. I’m convinced that websites and passive learning, video watching, can only get you so far. You need to get in there and learn about the hidden curriculum and all that juicy stuff that people don’t advertise about jobs.

Pete Mockaitis
When you say the hidden curriculum, what do you mean by this?

Tessa West
This is all the stuff that leads you to succeed at work that nobody talks about. Sometimes that means that company policies go against what it takes to actually succeed. The dark side is like taking maternity leave is a bad idea because someone else will take your job. That’s a piece of hidden curriculum. Sometimes it’s weird norms.

So I asked people, I did a study where I asked them about all the weird norms they encountered at work, and sometimes it’s like where you’re allowed to sit, who you can email to ask questions, whose orange juice you can drink from the office fridge, little things like that, but also things like knowledge transfer, which is a complex concept of, like, “If I know something from my old job, do people give a crap in my new job? Are they interested in learning about that? Or do they have their own set of rules here that contradict that?”

And I think a lot of us have a hard time getting over a newcomer hump at work because we assume the knowledge from our old job will carry over to a new one, when in reality there’s like a whole new set of norms and rules and even jargon. That’s another thing that we don’t like at work, but it’s super common. Everyone has their own terms, their own acronyms they use at work. They tend to be pretty idiosyncratic to companies. So, the ones you know now at your job now are going to be different than the ones that the new company uses.

So, just like, “How much of that do I have to learn? How steep is that hill to climb?” And what I think will I need to succeed, is that really what the people who’ve succeeded have? I’ll say one more thing which is job ads often have a list of requirements that are not the real requirements needed. And the reason why is because it’s for the sourcing for hiring managers. They want to cast a wide net so they tend to sort of underwrite ads, but what they’re really looking for is often not written in that ad.

And so, you have to do some digging to figure out, “Okay, they actually left out this really important thing that everyone who’s ever gotten this job had but it’s not in the ad because if they put it there, they’d only get three applicants,” or something like that. There’s lots of kind of mundane reasons but even at the level of the job ad, there’s a hidden curriculum of like what’s missing from that that you really do need to land the job and to succeed at it.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. That’s really nice, and it’s pretty substantial just how much is hidden, and just how skewed and inaccurate a picture we could get if we only rely on what’s published.

Tessa West
Yeah, think about it like a dating app. Imagine that you meet someone based on their app profile. Would you think that that app is 100% accurate and representative of the person? Most of us would laugh and say, “Of course not. That photo is 15 years old. They overestimated their height and their income and all this other stuff.” We know that, right? We intuitively know that our dating profile is not representative of us, so why do we think a job ad is representative of a job?

It’s the same kind of logic that I think you should apply. And when you meet someone on a first date, you want to do a little bit of digging to see how accurate that profile was. A lot of us are feeling catfished. We show up and we’re like, “That’s not you.” And I think that can happen with jobs, but we’re feeling much more vulnerable than when we’re dating, where we’re afraid to kind of dig for the truth because we want to get to the next stage.

So, we don’t ask those questions like, “Who wrote the ad?” and “Has my future boss even seen this ad?” Most of the time the answer is no. Some hiring manager wrote it, scraping from Indeed. And so, we have to treat it with that same level of kind of circumspect perspective that we would a dating app.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Tessa, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Tessa West
I’m a professor so I give you a lot of homework. It’s going to feel like a lot, but once you get the hang of kind of measuring yourself and learning about yourself by collecting these data, you’re going to be, hopefully, pleasantly surprised at the new things you’re going to uncover. And I think don’t be afraid to reach out to people and have those conversations. That’d be the one piece of advice I give people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Tessa West
Probably “Culture eats strategy for breakfast” is one of my favorite quotes. I think that it just kind of encompasses this idea that workplace vibes, culture, zeitgeist can really override anything that we do to plan. I think that is something that I kind of like live by. Don’t ask me who said it. I can’t remember.

Pete Mockaitis
I think Drucker.

Tessa West
Drucker, that’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study.

Tessa West
Probably be something on morality and norms. I’m doing a lot of research these days on how we interact with people who make us incredibly uncomfortable. So, one of my favorite studies in this space is by Wendy Mendez on the brittle smiles effect.

So the more uncomfortable we are interacting with someone who’s different from us, the more likely we are to smile, be nice, engage in friendly overtures, let them win negotiations, but at the same time our physiology suggests we’re incredibly stressed out. And so, I love that because it’s this juxtaposition between what our bodies are saying, which is stress, and what our minds are trying to override, which is overt friendliness in an effort to compensate for that. And I think that can explain why we often suck at giving feedback because it’s uncomfortable.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Tessa West
I only read fantasy novels these days, “Shadow Daddies,” that kind of thing, Sarah J. Maas.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Tessa West
Noise-canceling headphones.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I love noise-canceling headphones. Which one are you working with?

Tessa West
These are not it but I use Bose headphones because my office is all glass walls, and I can hear everything around me all the time, and I’m one of those noise-sensitive people, so I can’t concentrate if I can hear a conversation going on. So, I live by the noise. Sometimes I layer them on with wireless headphones. I’m going to sound totally crazy. Wireless headphones underneath with a noise machine going on on my iPhone, like a fan, and then the noise-canceling headphones over those so I really can’t hear anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, you know, I love it. I would put earplugs in and then headphones over the earplugs.

Tessa West
I do that too, but it’s not enough. You got to get the fan sound on the earbuds, and then the noise cancelling over that.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Tessa West
Getting a latte four times a day.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Tessa West
Keep it real. Just say the thing. At the end of the day, you’re going to get it out. It’s going to take you a while, so just say the thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Tessa West
You can check out TessaWestAuthor.com, which has all the quizzes for my book. There’s also going to be just a whole bunch of downloadable materials, little guides on how to do the stress test, how to measure yourself, how to network, all that fun business. If you’re interested in my research, you can check me out at TessaWestLab.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Tessa West
Yeah, reach out to five strangers this weekend and set up chats. Just cold reach out, follow the guide I give you, and just frame up three questions that you want to ask them, where you want to learn about their job. They can be completely outside of your industry. You’re just looking to learn new things.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Tessa, thank you. This is awesome.

Tessa West
Thank you so much.

Aug 15
0

987: How to Ace Your Next Job Interview with Sam Owens

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Sam Owens breaks down his detailed process for confidently nailing job interviews–in 10 hours flat.

You’ll Learn

  1. The biggest mistake people make in job interviews 
  2. How to craft your “power” answers for every question 
  3. The top do’s and don’ts of salary negotiation 

About Sam

Sam Owens is the author of I HATE JOB INTERVIEWS and founder of Sam’s Career Talk where he provides career coaching services and helps people land their dream jobs and thrive in them. He is also a chief marketing officer who has worked for three multi-billion dollar companies in the consumer packaged goods (CPG) industry. He is currently Chief Marketing Officer at Freezing Point, the makers of Frazil slushies. He and his wife, Gina, have four children and live in Erie, Colorado.

Resources Mentioned

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Sam Owens Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Sam, welcome.

Sam Owens
Thanks for having me, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell us, in your career experience, what is perhaps the most pervasive misconception or mistake you see as people are doing job hunting, interviewing things?

Sam Owens
For job interviews, specifically, the most pervasive thing I see is that people somehow don’t see the need to practice their job interviews. They think, “Well, I either have it or I don’t,” or, “I’m either I’m a good conversationalist, so I’ll be fine,” or, “I’m not good at this stuff or whatever.” For whatever reason, they don’t think they need to practice, even though they’ll practice their golf swing two hours a day, or something like that, and that’s for just a hobby. They won’t practice job interviews, which is their livelihood for the next several years. So, that’s by far, the most pervasive thing I see is a failure to practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so let’s talk about that mindset in terms of, like, “I got it or I don’t.” I suppose folks might think, “Well, hey, my experiences are my experiences. I could tell you about a time I failed, or I worked on a team, or I achieved a cool thing, blah, blah, blah. I know that. I know those experiences. I feel ready to tell you about them.” So, what are they failing to practice, and how does that show up when the interviewer is observing it?

Sam Owens
Okay, so I have to tell you about a movie I love, and maybe you’ve seen it, “Hitch,” with Will Smith and Kevin James. Okay, so there’s that scene, right, where Will Smith says, “Hey, all right, now about your dancing.” And Kevin James says, “Don’t worry about that, I got this one. It’s fine.” And Will Smith is like, “No, I’m sorry, I have to be thorough here. I need to see you dance.” And then, of course, he turns on music, and Kevin James, turns out, is just doing the funniest, most horrible dancing ever and Will Smith winds up slapping him saying, “Don’t ever do that again.”

So, I think in job interviews, things sound a lot differently in our minds than when we actually spit them out. It’s one thing to understand, “Yeah, I have relevant experience,” it’s another thing to clearly articulate when someone asks you, “Tell me about a time when you had to manage a difficult co-worker.” To tell a compelling, cohesive, concise story that really hits the mark requires practice.

It’s not that you don’t have the experiences, it’s not that you can’t recall the experiences, it’s just that the ability to convey that in two to four minutes in a really compelling way requires practice. Why wouldn’t it? You know, it’s not an easy thing to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, we are the Kevin Jameses in that we assume, “I know dancing.” It’s like, “I know my experiences, so we’re fine.” And it’s like, “No, no, not quite.”

Sam Owens
Either we’re the Kevin Jameses who think, “I got this,” or, here’s another problem, is we are the people that think, “Well, I don’t know, I’m not even sure if I want this job. It might not be worth all the preparation. We’ll see,” and so we kind of self-sabotage in some ways too. And what happens there is you wind up actually wanting the job, and then you don’t get the job because you came off as wishy-washy in the interview.

So, I tell my clients, “Be wishy-washy after you have a job offer in writing in your hands. That’s a great time to be wishy-washy and to be flippant and whatever. Until you have that job offer, be all in, be prepared, be ready to go.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s good. Well, maybe let’s zoom out a little bit. In your book, I Hate Job Interviews: Stop Stressing. Start Performing. Get the Job You Want, you lay out a whole process and some steps. Could you maybe zoom out for us and give us an overview of what are those steps?

Sam Owens
Yes, the whole book is based around a checklist that I use when I work with my clients to help them get jobs, and it starts with the preparation phase. And I recommend, and sometimes this gives people heartburn, I recommend 10 hours of preparation per interview. The first three hours is spent researching the company, talking to people familiar with the company, crafting what I call your power stories.

Then the next phase is formulating your answers, formulating, anticipating how you’re going to answer them. And then the final phase, I’d say about four hours, is practicing out loud, partially with yourself and then with someone else to be successful. So, the book really walks through what that preparation looks like, how to prepare more efficiently. And then it goes through a series of question types, not specific questions, but question types, like the introductory question or a behavioral question or a case question.

It talks about how you can take your power stories and craft them so that you can answer all of these question types so that, by the time you get to the interview, you’re really ready for anything someone can throw at you. Nothing will throw you off and you feel fully prepared. So, that’s kind of the basis of the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, and so then I’m curious, I mean, the name of the book is “I hate interviews,” I Hate Job Interviews, so we’re going to talk mostly about job interviews. But before we do, I got to ask, any top tips for getting the interview in the first place?

Sam Owens
Sure. One of the pieces of advice in this book, a chapter I focus on is called “Getting Inside Information.” It’s a little bit different from what you’d expect, but as part of a job interview preparation, I actually start out by telling the story of a Wall Street inside trader who was in prison. His name is Ivan Boesky. He’s one of the first big insider trader scandals. I tell the readers to be a little bit more like him, which is a little strange.

Pete Mockaitis
A role model for us all.

Sam Owens
That’s right. He’s a good role model. And I say that because inside information, getting inside information is illegal and bad in the financial world. But, actually, it’s legal, ethical, and oftentimes encouraged, if you do it right, in the job interview world. So, as part of someone’s preparation, the first thing that someone’s going to want to do is a lot of times open their laptop and read about the company or get on their phone and read about it.

That’s okay to do a little bit, but what they really should do is put away the phone, put down the laptop, and start talking to people, anyone who is familiar with the company, someone that works with the company, and just asking for a 15-minute informational interview, “Hey, I’m applying to this company. Just want to pick your brain a little bit and have an informational interview.”

And the beauty of an informational interview is it will give you the opportunity, number one, to get inside information. I’ve gotten amazing information by calling people and saying, “Hey, I’m interviewing with your company, and just wondering if you could tell me a little bit about the company.” And then just sitting back and listening. Oh, wow, I didn’t hear just about the company. I heard about here’s who you’re interviewing with. I didn’t ask, but here are some things I would think about. And it was invaluable to me in preparing for those interviews.

So, the same principle applies when you’re trying to get an interview. If you’re interested in, let’s say, Microsoft, the first thing I would do is get on LinkedIn and try to find anyone who knows anybody that has anything to do with that company, and start calling people, picking their brains, asking them, “Hey, who else should I talk to?”

Assuming those interviews go well, you can say, “Hey, I’ve already applied to this job. What do you think? Would you be willing to pass along my resume? If you would, it would be such a huge benefit to me and I’d really appreciate it.” And so, by talking to people and by running in those circles, you’re going to get a much higher interview hit rate than if you are just trying to hit keyword, buzzwords, whatever on Monster.com or on the company website. You really need to talk to people familiar with the company.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Okay. Well, so what I like in your book, your first step associated with doing well in these interviews is to start by convincing our harshest critic, which is often ourselves. So, how do we do that?

Sam Owens
That’s right. People say, “How do I become confident in an interview?” And it comes down to convincing ourselves that we really are. We really have to know deep in our bones that we are a great candidate for this job. And this kind of starts with dispelling some of the myths we’ve talked about already, like, “Oh, I don’t know if I…” some bad, I call it mental trash. Take out your mental trash.

Some of these things that we think, “Oh, if I don’t get the job, it’s because I wasn’t qualified.” Well, that’s not true. You got the interview already. You are qualified. You just didn’t interview as well as someone else did. So, that’s one thing to dispel. “Oh, job interviewing is only for extroverts. I’m an introvert, so I’m just not going to do well.” Well, that’s not true. Job interviewing is for those who prepare.

So, there’s all these kinds of negative thoughts that are not helpful that can kind of surface as we’re preparing, got to get rid of those first. And the next piece is, that 10 hours of preparation. If you are prepared, confidence will come through preparation.

Some people are naturally confident without preparation, and that winds up coming off as arrogance in an interview. That’s kind of a disaster, you know, being confident without being prepared. And so, preparation is the key, whether you’re overconfident, whether you’re not confident enough, to make sure you have the right level of confidence when you walk into the interview.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, let’s really get into it then. Okay, I got the call, “Hooray! I have an interview coming up.” I got 10 hours on my schedule to do what Sam’s telling me to do. First step, what am I doing at hour one?

Sam Owens
Hour one is you’re going to be doing informational interviews and/or researching the company. So, this is basic research, understanding, reading the job description. The job description is your instruction manual, and many people don’t go deep into it. So, for example, in the job description you can easily detect, okay, what skills they are looking for. It could be strategic thinking. It could be analytical ability.

So, you’re spending that hour, I should say the first hour, you’re really spending it studying the job description, studying the company and writing down what skills they are looking for because, later in the preparation process, you’re going to be translating those skills into responses. You’re going to be anticipating question types in writing stories that demonstrate how you have mastered those skills. So that’s hour one, a little bit of reading.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And what’s in hour two?

Sam Owens
After you’ve done this, now it’s time to have some informational interviews, which means you get on LinkedIn, or you talk to your brother-in-law, or you do whatever you need to do to speak with people who are familiar with the company. You give them a call, you ask for 15 minutes, you’re very grateful, you’re very gracious, but you ask them questions about the company, and mostly you sit back and you listen.

That is another input for you that you’re writing down to help you craft and hone and frame the stories to make sure the stories you tell are on point with the skills that they’re looking for. So, that’s kind of your first, I’d say, three hours. That reading points, probably about an hour and then these informational interviews, you’re probably going to want to spend about two hours doing that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Sam Owens
Feeling good so far?

Pete Mockaitis
Yup. I might ask, any pro-tips when you make the request, things to say, things not to say when you’re asking for these gracious 15-minute favors of time?

Sam Owens
You want to establish any sort of personal connection. So, it’s one thing to go on LinkedIn and to say, “Hey, Steve, Sarah said it’d be okay that we talked. Wondering if we could set something up.” It’s another thing to say, “Steve, you and I have two things in common. First, we’re huge Texas fans. I lived there from 1999 to 2005, and I see you work there today. How’s Dallas? It’s awesome. Second, we share a common friend, Sarah, she’s amazing. She mentioned you might be willing to talk to me, I’d be so grateful to do it.”

So, anything you can do to establish a personal connection with the person who you’re reaching out to is going to increase your hit rate and response rate dramatically.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, we’ve had these conversations, we’ve got some inside information. I’m wondering, are there any super awesome questions that give us a lot of valuable insights that you recommend are among the top things you want to ask during our 15-minute windows?

Sam Owens
I think the more information you can give them about your situation, the more they’ll know how to help you. So, “Hey, I’m applying for a job in marketing. I’ve already applied. I have an interview coming up. I’m just wondering, as I prepare, what the great marketing candidates look like. What are they like? Do you have any advice for me in the job interview process? Can you tell me a little bit about the culture at your company?”

And what I found is you don’t have to ask too many questions because once they know that you’re a candidate, that you’re interested, they’re going to say, “Okay, I got it. Let me help you just understand what you’re looking at here. Here’s my perspective.” So, I found that many times in a 15-minute conversation, number one, it usually turns into 30 minutes.

And, number two, I’d probably do 20% of the talking, and the person telling me and helping me is doing the rest of the talking, and that’s exactly how you want it to be. It’s a beautiful thing when that happens. So, I think some starter questions like that work really well, but I think just being able to listen attentively, maybe ask a couple follow-up questions, be engaged in the conversation is going to help a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, we’ve had these conversations, we’ve gotten the good inside info, now what?

Sam Owens
Now it’s time to craft your power stories. And the reason I say you craft your stories is that you could be asked thousands of different interview job questions, and there’s no way that you can anticipate all of these questions. There’s just no way. You don’t have the time or the ability to anticipate how many questions that you’ll be asked.

However, there are only a handful of question types that you’ll be asked, and only a handful of skills that they are trying to assess. So, you want to craft power stories. If you see that they want to assess a skill in analytical ability, for example, you’ll think back in your experiences, and you’ll say, “Oh, I remember that time I had to build that inventory model for work. What was that like? What was I asked to do? And why did I do such an amazing job?”

And so, those are the types of things you want to say, “All right, I got five skills that I know they’re going to assess. So, I’m going to have two stories associated with each of those skills, and those are going to be my foundation.” Once I have that foundation, now I can start to look at all the different question types I’ll be asked, scenario questions, introductory, behavioral questions, questions about me, and I’ll be able to kind of use that as a foundation to start crafting those answers.

So that’s the next step. You want to get, you want to start to craft those power stories, and then start to anticipate, “Okay, here’s how I’d answer a behavioral question with this story. Here’s how I’d answer a you,” I call a you question, but a question about you with this story, when someone says, “What’s your leadership style?” or whatever.

And once you have that foundation, you’re going to be a lot more confident as you’re answering questions because then you can think like a politician, and anytime someone asks you a question type, you can kind of say, “All right, I got a story for that and I’m going to tell them kind of what I want to tell them a little bit,” and position my power story just a little bit to fit that question type.

Pete Mockaitis
Sam, I love this that I’ve done this, and it’s so funny, it almost feels like cheating. But I’ll tell you though, in practice, because the range of interview questions is somewhat narrow, it doesn’t look nearly as off-putting as when politicians do it. It’s like, “We weren’t talking about climate change or the border or the economy. Where is this coming from, right? Here it is.”

If we are worried that the interviewer will say, “No, no, no. That’s not what I asked. How dare you try to hijack my interview with your stuff?” Tell me, does that ever happen? And should we fear this? And why or why not?

Sam Owens
No, thinking like a politician is a provocative thought, but, really, you’re right, it’s a narrow scope. What I mean is, if someone asks you, “Can you tell me about a time when you demonstrated leadership?” Or if someone asks you, “Tell me about how you get along with others,” there’s a good chance you can use the same story for both of those questions, right?

And so, what we’re saying is you want your best stuff. You want to prepare your hits, right? If you’re going to go see a concert, you’re going to go see U2 play a concert, you don’t want the new album. You want the hits. So, it’s like your power stories are your best stuff. And then, when they ask you, “Tell me how smart are you?” or “Tell me about times you manage a complicated project?” or “How do you think you are as a leader?” there’s a good chance, actually, you could take your best story and position it appropriately to fit the question that you’re asked.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And just to make sure we’re on the same page, my greatest hits, I assume that means a smashing victory in which I exceeded expectations, created a big result, delighted my boss or clients or colleagues. This is what makes a hit a hit. Is that fair to say?

Sam Owens
That’s what a hit is. It’s like a Disney movie or any sort of movie. There’s a hero who is put into a kind of a difficult situation, spends most of the movie doing amazing things to solve the problem, and then in the end, everything works out amazingly well. That’s kind of the narrative that you weave in pretty much all of these stories.

Pete Mockaitis
I love it. I like you make it really simple. So, there we have identified the intersection then with what is within our real, genuine, legitimate experience, “Hey, I really did do that, and it really was awesome,” aligned with the skills they’re after, aligned with the kinds of question types they’re going to likely put our way. So, that’s when I’ve got things, the stars are aligning. Could you maybe give us some particulars as to what the story sounds like, how long should it be, maybe a demo?

Sam Owens
Sure. Let’s take a behavioral-based question, which is the bulk of many interviews, and this is the type of question where they ask you “Tell me about a time when…” They’re looking for a specific time, not generality. So, if they say, “Tell me about a time when you demonstrated leadership,” a weak answer would be, “Well, I think leadership is really important, and I’ve gotten really good feedback that I’m a good leader, and I have an open-door policy.” That’s not what they’re asking. They’re asking for a specific time.

And the reason they do that is because they believe that if you demonstrate, specifically, that you’ve done a skill in the past, you’re highly likely to demonstrate that same skill in the future. And so, the way you think about this is, you may have heard this model, the SPAR model, STAR model. I call it the SPAR model, Situation, Problem, Action, Result.

You give probably 10% of the answer to just describe the situation. So, let’s see, “Tell me about a time when you had to deal with a difficult co-worker.” Okay. You know, the situation setup might sound something like, “Two years ago, I was working for a food manufacturing firm, and I was assigned as a new person on a critical marketing project. This project was going to be the biggest campaign we had, and there was a team of 10 of us that were really going to try to grow sales for this new cereal that we were launching.”

Okay, great. So that’s your setup. Doesn’t have to be very long. It’s kind of like I say with this answer set up. It’s kind of like think about hot dogs. No one wants the back story of how it’s made. Everyone just wants to get to the meat, so think about it like a hot dog, quick setup. Now you have a problem. So, you introduce a problem, and you don’t want to make this boring. You want to make this kind of like a movie, like I said, a little tense, maybe a little drama, so that they actually want to listen to you.

So, now you say, “And the most senior person on the team didn’t like that I was put on the team because he felt like I was too junior, and so he started excluding me from meetings, and he started making comments, somewhat inappropriate comments in meetings, and this became a real challenge. And I realized if I was going to be successful, I needed to build a successful relationship with this coworker.” So, there’s your problem. So, I just did a quick situation-problem. That’s like 20%, 30% of your answer. Now the bulk of your answer.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, if I may, I’m loving this so much because I’ve heard STAR. I’ve heard SPAR fewer times, but you’re right. To talk about the problem sets up a conflict like a movie that’s engaging a story I need to hear resolved, I’m engaged. As opposed to a task is less juicy, enriching to our human nature and desire to have story.

Sam Owens
That’s right. Exactly. Your goal is to not have the interviewer tune out when you’re telling the story. So, creating a little drama always helps. So now you get to the actions where you spend the bulk, 70% of your answer. I like to do this sequentially because I think it helps keep things organized. So, talking, I say the rule of threes, one, two, three, “Okay, so here’s what I first did to manage and to kind of build this relationship. I took him to lunch, first thing, and got to know him personally so that we could establish a personal connection.”

“And in doing that, I learned a lot about him, about his family, about his background, his experience. I almost kind of looked at it and approached it like he could be my mentor. And he liked that. I think that was helpful to build our relationship because he did. I found he did have a lot of valuable experience that I can learn from.”

“The second thing I did was made a commitment to him, to talk to him and report every week on the progress that I had made on the project, because he was kind of the self-described leader of the project, and so I was more than happy to report on all the work I had done and let him give input, to kind of have this be more like a mentoring relationship. And in doing that, he really wound up engaging with me and gave me pointers. The first couple weeks were a little challenging because he was somewhat critical of my work but, eventually, he really started to come around.”

“And then the third thing I did was, after my final presentation of the work I did, I showed him and asked for his feedback on this, which really created this collaborative environment.” So, that’s the action, and you can insert other things in there, but that’s the idea. You are kind of sequentially walking through specific things that you did to solve the problem.

And then, finally, you get to the result, where I say, “And as a result of that, he actually became my biggest advocate. And when we presented this project to the executive team, he called me out specifically for the work that I had done uniquely on this project. And so, that was an example to me of really striving to build a personal relationship, leveraging someone as a mentor, and being more transparent with my work to foster that kind of collaborative relationship.”

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful.

Sam Owens
Thank you. That’s how I’d think about answering those types of questions with a story like that, a behavioral question.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, we’ve identified some great power stories, we structured them with a SPAR approach, and now we just rehearse saying them out loud?

Sam Owens
That’s right. Now it’s time to practice. Now, there’s other questions that you can practice. So, you have these power stories, but there’s also other ways that these questions can be asked that you need to modify. So, for example, there’s a category of questions I call “you questions” where someone says “What kind of leader are you?” That’s a little bit of a different type of question, and it would be strange if you immediately launched into a SPAR story if someone asked that.

But one of models I use there is SEE, statement, explanation, example. So, when someone says, “What kind of leader are you?” you can say, “I think I could describe my leadership style as results-oriented and high accountability.” So, that’s your brief statement. Then you explain a little bit what you mean, “What I mean by that is I’ve been known to really collaborate and make sure I get input from all my team members, and make sure that I have that relationship to where I can hold them accountable.”

Now you go to the example, you could say, “For example,” and then that example could be a real truncated version of the story I just told, or another story that says, “For example, in my last role, I really had to take a leadership position with this coworker, and here’s what I did,” and it’s a shorter version, but you’re still weaving that in. And so, I think being able to, yes, the answer is yes, you got to practice, but you got to be ready with the different models that I lay out depending on the question type you’re asked.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then when we practice, any pro tips, do it with friends, do it with a video camera on your phone? Or how do we think about practicing optimally?

Sam Owens
My last job interview that I had, I practiced for a couple hours on my commute back and forth with the job I had at the time. I just practiced out loud.

Pete Mockaitis
Alone in the car is great.

Sam Owens
Which can be very valuable. Yeah, I like doing that. And then practice either with a coach. Coach is ideal, but if you don’t want to pay the money or if you don’t know any coaches, then just practice with a friend or someone who you think would be the best that will at least give you genuine and honest feedback. And when you practice, my pro tip is to simulate the actual experience.

Don’t stop in the middle, ask to start over, don’t say, “Oh, how is that?” Time it, do a 45-minute interview, and then afterwards, ask for all the feedback, because that gives you a sense of, “Okay, here’s how much endurance I’m going to have to have.” It’s going to force you to try to get yourself out of sticky situations that you might put yourself into.

Simulating the real deal is going to give you an opportunity, if I can just be totally blunt, to say, make some really dumb mistakes and say stupid things, and then realize, “Ooh, that was painful.” Like, only then do you realize, “That was painful. I don’t want to experience that pain again, so I’m going to fix that problem.” So, that’s what the practice does for you, is it allows you to say stupid things, or say things in the wrong way and then fix them for the real thing.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then on the day of, we’ve done our 10 hours, any pro tips for the day of? Breakfast, caffeine, showing up early, dress, anything we should think about on this day?

Sam Owens
Yeah, nothing crazy. Look, well, dress is a funny one because “How should I dress for an interview?” I have a rule of thumb, which is “Dress not to impress.” What I mean by that is don’t make dress the subject. You don’t want any interviewer to make a yes or no decision based on the way you were dressed.

So, what that means is, if you show up in a tux to a really casual place, it’s going to be like, “Hmm, that was weird. Yeah, I mean, he did a good interview. She did a nice interview, but it was just…let me tell you what this person wore.” At the same time, you don’t want to show up with sweat shorts at the place.

So, the best way to dress is to call the HR person, ask what the daily dress code is, and then just dress a little nicer than that, “Hey, we’re business casual” “Okay, good. I’ll wear slacks and a button-up. Or maybe I’ll wear a tie, I don’t know.” But a little bit nicer just so that it’s not even an issue, it’s not a focus. If I’m going to get rejected from a job, it better be because I’m not qualified, not because I dress the wrong way. That’s an easy one to get right.

The day of, yeah, caffeine, whatever you need to do, I would just say do not be late to the interview, and respect the person’s time at the end. When they ask you, “What questions do you have for me?” and you got two minutes, just do a time check for them. Maybe they have more time, but if they don’t, just respect that time. So, those are probably some basic nuts and bolts on the day of.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, there we got it. Now, Sam, let’s say we do get the offer. Woo-hoo! Any top tips for negotiation or how we work that?

Sam Owens
The best time to negotiate your compensation is when you have an offer in writing. So, if they ask you what your salary requirements are in the interview, just know that you are not in the leveraged position when they ask you that. You’re in the leveraged position after you know that they want to give you an offer.

So, that poses an interesting question, “Well, what do I say?” Well, you have different options. You can punt and say, “Hey, I’ve just been really focused on whether or not this is a fit. I’m sure we’ll be able to work out the salary piece later.” Or, you could say, “Well, based on my research, I believe the salary range is between this and this.” But you really don’t have the opportunity to really play hardball until you have an offer in writing. So, that’s rule number one.

Rule number two. Any agreements, promises, or statements not in writing should not be taken seriously. So, I remember I had a job where I wanted, I was asking about, “What does my future promotion look like?” And the recruiting manager made me all sorts of promises, which immediately, after I took the job, were forgotten and didn’t matter. I don’t blame that person. I blame myself. I mean, really, if there’s no commitments in writing, they shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Okay, number three. It’s best to be paid what you are worth, not a lot more or a lot less. If you’re paid a lot more than your worth, eventually that catches up to you. If you’re paid a lot less, you’re not happy with that, and that eventually catches up to the employer. Number four. Compensation is about salary and so much more than salary. So, sometimes they won’t budge on salary but there’s all sorts of other stuff that you could talk about: bonus, benefits, vacation, all that stuff. So, think holistically when you think about the negotiation process.

Number five. Companies are much more willing to negotiate if they believe you will accept the offer. So, you don’t do yourself any favors when you say, “I don’t know. What are you willing to do for me?” It’s much better to go in good faith and say, “Hey, I actually want this. I’m excited about it. Here are some things that will help me make this work.” six. Don’t underestimate the power of likability. Interviewing firm but kindly is to your advantage.

Number seven. You likely won’t burn bridges by negotiating hard. Sometimes they want you to think, or you think, “Oh, man, if I negotiate too hard, then maybe when I start, they’re going to be mad at me or something.” Never the case. Once, it’s all done, it’s water under the bridge and you can start with a clean slate.

Number eight. Knowledge is power. Do your research, talk to people, try to understand what the salary ranges are. Number ten. Your current salary can be helpful in negotiating or it can be a liability. It’s up to you. Now, in my career, I’m happy with my salary. Someone calls me, “What are you looking to make?” I say, “Well, here’s what I’m making today. If you want me to move, I need to make at least 10% more than that.”

If you’re starting out and you’re not thrilled about your salary, and this job has a lot more, then you don’t need to bring it up, and you use the other negotiation tactics. So, that was a lot I just threw at you but that’s my 10 laws of negotiating tactics.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s handy. I like the part about negotiating hard in terms of just to remember to negotiate, period. I think in the United States, we’re not as accustomed to like, “Oh, this is the price. Okay.” It’s like, “Oh, this is the offer. Okay.” I had a guest who said that they are just able to automatically give up to 10% more anytime anybody bothers to ask, just straight up as policy. It’s like, “Wow, that’s easy. Remember to ask.”

Sam Owens
Yeah, I think so. It’s pretty rare that an employer is like, “Nope, don’t even ask. This is it.” Everything is kind of negotiable, right? And even if you don’t get what you want, at least you know that you didn’t leave anything on the table that you could have had. There’s a peace of mind that comes with that as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I have seen environments where it’s like, “Okay, look, this is standardized across hundreds of people making the same. As an associate consultant position in North America at this firm at this year, this is the package for everybody, and it just is.” It’s like, “Okay, that’s a pretty good answer. I’m glad I asked, and now I know.”

Sam Owens
Yeah, that is a good answer. Yeah, now you know, and it’s helpful when you know, because you think, “Okay, good. Now I feel…” because sometimes it’s about the money and sometimes it’s just about the perception of fairness. And so, at least you know, that when I’m sitting at lunch with the people that were hired with me, we all got the same deal. There were no exceptions, and so I’m okay with that. I can live with that.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, Sam, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about your favorite things?

Sam Owens
All right, the only thing I really want to tell people out there, because I’ve been working with people who are job seeking for a long time, is if you’re struggling right now, I just want you to know, you will find a job. It may not be on the timeline you’re looking for, and it may not be the exact job you thought you’d get, but it is going to work out. You are going to be employed again.

And I just think that’s an important thing to tell people out there, because of the people that I’ve seen, observed, who haven’t had jobs, 100% of them land on their feet, and it’s going to be like that for you too, whoever’s listening or needs to hear that. I really do believe that, I know that, and I’d just say keep your head up, keep your chin up, and keep moving forward. It’s going to work out for you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Sam Owens
Winston Churchill at the brink of World War II, “Never, never, never give in.” 

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Sam Owens
I like the Marshmallow experiment. I think that’s an interesting one.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Sam Owens
Well, I’ll tell you a book that I really enjoyed reading lately, Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Sam Owens
So, my favorite habit, my recommended habit for longevity in your career and in life is daily exercise.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a Sam-original nugget of wisdom that people quote back to you often?

Sam Owens
Something that they probably quote most, they quote back to me is me saying back to them, “Why don’t you be indecisive after you have an offer? Until now, be all in.” So, I think that’s probably the nugget of wisdom when it comes to job interviewing is be all in.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Sam Owens
Connect on LinkedIn. So, I’m on LinkedIn, been there for a long time. Or you go to my website, SamsCareerTalk.com. There’s actually free materials on there. If you sign up for my email, you get some free job interview guides and stuff like that, and even maybe, I’d have to check with my email guy, but you might even get some free e-Course still, e-Course videos and stuff like that if you go on it. So, my LinkedIn profile or SamsCareerTalk.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Sam Owens
Practice, people. This is a learned skill. This hour, this next hour, and this will be my foray into being Tony Robbins or a motivational person or something like that.

The next hour that you do a job interview may be the most important hour of your career, not because it’s where you’re going to do your best work, but it’s because that may be the hour that makes all other hours possible in your career. So, don’t take it for granted. Don’t take it lightly. Put in the work. It’s worth it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Sam, thank you. This has been fun. I wish you much luck with interviews on both sides of that desk.

Sam Owens
Thanks, Pete. Appreciate it.

Feb 29
0

940: How to Find the Best Job for You that Actually Exists with Lauren McGoodwin

By | Podcasts | One Comment

Lauren McGoodwin challenges the notion of the “dream job” and makes the case for pursuing the “good-enough” job.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why the dream job actually doesn’t exist 
  2. The true drivers of happiness at work 
  3. Why to become invaluable–not indispensable 

About Lauren

Lauren founded Career Contessa in 2013 after experiencing a gap in career development resources for women who might be job searching, soul searching, leading and managing, or trying to find new ways to advance within their careers. With women accounting for more than 50% of the workforce and the workforce being less defined than ever before, it seemed crazy (and outdated) that a resource for us didn’t exist.

Fast-forward to today, Career Contessa is now the largest online career site built inclusively for women. Lauren is also author of Power Moves: How Women Can Pivot, Reboot, and Build a Career of Purpose (2020), co-host of The Career Contessa podcast, and an educator/speaker on a variety of career topics. 

Formerly, Lauren was a University Recruiter for Hulu focused on hiring, employer branding, and program management. Lauren has a Bachelors in Education from the University of Oregon and a Masters in Communication Management from the University of Southern California where she wrote her thesis on millennials and career resources. 

When not Contessa-ing, you can find Lauren spending time with her family in Redondo Beach, CA where she lives with her husband and daughter. 

Resources Mentioned

Thank you, sponsors!

Lauren McGoodwin Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis

Lauren, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Lauren McGoodwin

Hi, Pete. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I am super excited to dig into your wisdom. And could you start us off by sharing, so you’ve been in this Career Contessa game for a while, great brand.

Lauren McGoodwin
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis

And it even existed before How to be Awesome at Your Job, so kudos on a long run here. Can you share with us a particularly surprising or counterintuitive piece of career advice that you’ve come to learn and adopt and share during your reign as the Career Contessa?

Lauren McGoodwin

Yeah, absolutely. We’ve been around for 10 years, I’ve talked to a lot of successful, very fulfilled people. I think the biggest thing, the biggest misconception I’m sort of very much on brand for that millennial woman who was striving for perfect, was that the dream job does not exist, it’s a myth. It’s a myth that kind of keeps you perpetually stuck. So, that’s probably the biggest one from talking, and basically having the job that I do, which is finding out “What does make a successful career? People who are fulfilled, how do they do it?”

And that’s a big one, I think, because it starts to sort of managing your expectations and actually not expecting to have this dream job that checks every box in your life. It’s similar to trying to find a perfect partner, right? But with jobs, for some reason, we believe not only do dream jobs exist but that, “I should have one. And if I don’t have one, something about me is missing and wrong, and I’ve messed up,” and turn yourself into this personal DIY project to fix that part of your life.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, that’s good. That’s good. So, the implications of that then is if we’re not in a dream job, that’s okay, nobody is because they don’t exist. That’s your view on the world?

Lauren McGoodwin

Yeah, it is my view on the working world, that there is no such thing as a dream job. And you’ll see it makes a really good saying as a meme on Instagram and TikTok and whatnot of the dream job exists and hustle harder to get that dream job, and a job should check all these multiple boxes but what I find is that, really, what the dream job is made up of is this elusive kind of lifestyle piece of a job, where it doesn’t include hellish commutes or return-to-office mandates that you don’t agree with, it doesn’t include manipulative coworkers or bad bosses who actually don’t know how to manage.

And so, you’re sort of looking for this thing that doesn’t exist, and so your expectations are consistently misaligned with reality. That is equivalent, for me, of someone who has a very fixed mindset versus having a growth mindset, someone who can say, “Hey, my ability to learn and adapt is more important than, okay, my ability to be perfect at this presentation.”

So, I think what happens is dream job isn’t just like your job title and your company. It’s really inclusive more of like a lifestyle, and a mindset, and these realities that, one, don’t exist, as COVID, I think, is such a good reminder of, like, things can change quickly, and being able to be adaptable, and be able to lean into uncertainty, is really kind of the stuff that makes you more invaluable at work versus the person who’s like, “I found the perfect job title, and it looks really good on LinkedIn, and I’m able to share these…” I call it, like, glitter and glue moments, “All these glitter moments in my career but the glue is what holds the career together.”

And so, that’s why I’m actually a big advocate for people who always say, “Well, if I’m not looking for a dream job, what am I looking for?” And I will advocate for a good-enough job. A good-enough is really practical, it’s not perfect, and that’s the problem. But dream jobs is you’re stuck there.

One of the things that people will ask me “If I’m not looking for a dream job, what should I be striving for?” which this is unique for each person, but this is why I’m a huge advocate for the good-enough job. The good-enough job is practical. It’s not perfect. It’s not having you strive for that perfectionist tendency that can keep you stuck. And so, the good-enough job, again, it’s practical. It allows you to still have a life outside of work. It doesn’t ask that work check every box of your life and fulfill every part of you.

And I think COVID was a good reminder of that for people, and I worry that now, in 2024, we’re starting to forget about that and try to go back to those tendencies. So, I would just say, to answer kind of the very first question, the piece of advice I have learned the most that kind of counteracts, actually, building a fulfilling career is trying to go after that dream job.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, so that’s a cool distinction there, a dream job versus a good-enough job, and I like what you had to say with regard to partners in terms of, like, no human being is perfect, and no job is perfect. And so, I would say, I think that my dear bride is a good wife, and she’s not perfect, and I’m not perfect. So, help us orient to things a little bit in terms of good-enough.

Lauren, lay it on us, four levels of job, if I may.

One, unacceptable, you should probably get out of there as soon as you can. Two, good enough, yeah, you should probably hold on to this. All right. Three, about as good as actually exists in real life, so hold on with all your might. And, four, just unrealistic, like, that probably doesn’t exist for anybody, so disabuse yourself from that notion readily. So, I put you on the spot there, Lauren. Give us four levels of job, starting with a rung that’s, “Yeah, I should probably get out of here.”

Lauren McGoodwin
Yeah. So, an example of this is like the person who has their “dream job,” they’re a lawyer, they worked their whole life for this, this is the thing they wanted to do, they’ve got that corner office, but they’re miserable. They’re working nonstop. Maybe they’re paid well but it doesn’t matter because they have no life, they have no friends, they’re not able to have any hobby.

And so, it’s that mix of, like, “But this is what I thought I wanted so I need to continue it.” They’re burnt out, they’re all the negative things. That’s sort of what I would think is the rung of like, “But this was supposed to be my dream job. I worked so hard to get this.” It just never, never goes away.

So, then the good-enough job, again, it’s practical but it’s not perfect. Maybe it’s something that you’re really good, you’re not particularly, like, dying over passion for whatever industry, you work in manufacturing, but you’re really good at your job, and it gives you work-life balance that works for you. Maybe for you that means, “I want a really high salary, and I’m willing to sacrifice having to go into an office and commute every day.” That works for the chapter you’re in right now.

Like, stages of your life are similar to stages of your career. I talked to someone the other day, who she got a new job, and she’s been working at a startup, but she has kids now, and the startup has a lot of it can feel a little unpredictable about what’s going to happen, so she’s like, “I really like that but I kind of made a little bit of a career pivot, and I wanted to go to a bigger company because I was looking for something that was more stable, offered me remote role, was an increase in pay because a lot of times startups will give equity.”

And so, again, that is a good-enough job for her. She’s like, “I like this thing well enough, I don’t have to be a die-hard for it, but also it’s not asking more from me than what I think is reasonable given the exchange of money,” the exchange of the paycheck part for her. That can be a good-enough job. Then you have the person who maybe go even like a step further, where they have this deep passion of being able to reclaim their life from work.

And so, they have a job that allows them to have more PTO, or maybe they do, like I talked to someone the other day, she’s a teacher and she’s doing like a job-share with somebody else. So, for her, that’s a good-enough situation. She doesn’t want to totally leave the workplace but she wants to reimagine how it works for her.

So, there’s all these variations of what the good-enough job can be for you. The teacher is deeply passionate about what she’s working on. She’s just struggling with how to make that work with her life, so a job-share works. Then you have the other person who’s like, “I’m not deeply passionate about it but I’m good at it and I’m paid well for it, and so that works.”

And then the top, or the first rung I said is the person who’s like, “I thought I was passionate about this. This is a dream job, it looks good on paper, I’m working for the right company, I’ve reached all these achievements, and it’s not working for me. And now I have this piece of me where I feel like I failed or, somehow, I have this expectation hangover of this isn’t what I expected to be, on top of the fact that I’m burnt out and all these other things.”

So, I think there’s obviously a lot of variations, careers are super personal, but I think what it comes down to is managing those expectations, understanding that the dream job, this concept of a dream job is more about the lifestyle that goes with it. And so, restudying those expectations and then going out, and kind of I always tell people, like when I was a recruiter, “You don’t get everything.” It’s like, the realtor will ask, “What are the top three most important things to you? Neighborhood? Number of bedrooms?”

I think that’s also important to do in your career, and I think it starts with aligning with your values. So, thinking about, “What do you really value personally? And then, how can you translate your top values into the career that you have?” Those are just all good starting places. There’s obviously a lot of intricacies to this but when you are trying to make the shift from dream job to good-enough job, I think that’s a really good starting place.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. So, I dig it. So, we’ve got a picture of the lowest level of job, bad, and then a picture of good enough. Could you also paint a picture for us for the highest levels, like about as good as it gets in the real world, as well as this is just impossible and unrealistic in the world of reality?

Lauren McGoodwin

Like, this job doesn’t actually exist, but if we could make it exist, this is what it would look like?

Pete Mockaitis

Kind of like a fantasy dream job people have that is harmful because they are comparing it to an unrealistic thing?

Lauren McGoodwin
I think that’s a little bit like lazy girl job, which is this TikTok phenomenon that went off, where it’s like you basically don’t have to do anything, and you don’t have to be involved or engaged in any way, but you’re paid really well. I think of that as almost like this true fantasy. Like, one, it is an exchange for you creating impact and value for the company, the exchanges they’re going to pay you. So, you’re not going to be able to actually gives you or never asks you to take a call that’s inconvenient. The realities of life are sort of that is going to happen.

So, to paint that picture, I almost think the comparison is this lazy-girl job thing that people were talking about. I’m not saying that it doesn’t exist but, for me, I look at a “lazy-girl job” which I hate because you wouldn’t hear a lazy-boy job, but, anyway, that’s a whole other topic. But, for me, it’s like I actually have had a job before. My very first job, I was an admin assistant. My only job was to basically wait for the phone to ring.

Now, I wasn’t well-paid, and I had to show up to an office so I wasn’t able to just do what I want all day long, but, for me, I was, as a human being, part of our wellbeing is we want to be engaged, we want to create something, we want to use our brains. And, for me, that was really mind-numbing work, but if we wanted to paint this picture of this “lazy-girl job” or this ultimate job that really doesn’t ask you to do anything, I think people think that would be fulfilling, but I don’t think it would.

I think us, as human beings, we want to move forward, we want to make an impact, and you wouldn’t get that in that situation, but I could see that being this, like, ultimate dream job for somebody.

Pete Mockaitis

Lauren, I love that so much, that notion of a dream scenario would be that you don’t have to do much but you get tons of money. And what’s interesting is, I think, we can see that in real life in terms of if you’ve been on vacation for a while, it’s like you’re actually kind of bored, “And I want to get to it and start being able, contributing somewhere,” there’s that.

And if you look at folks who, I don’t think you can even call them jobs but they have some sort of a subsidized living situation, like a trust fund or some kinds of funds are just flowing into their life without effort, and often these folks are as susceptible or more so, I think the data show, to depression and other kinds of challenges because there’s something that’s not quite being met there.

So, I think that’s a great thing to call out, that you might imagine this thing exists but it kind of doesn’t from a job perspective. And even if you were subsidized magically, that often has its own perils with regard to mental health and fulfillment. So, give us that level that’s maybe just below that in terms of, “This is about as good as it really gets in terms of, I wouldn’t call it a dream job because it doesn’t exist, but this is as close to optimal as one might hope for in this life.”

Well, now can you paint a picture for, if we’ve got four levels, like terrible job, good-enough job, then as good as is realistically optimally possible in real-life job, and then the fake dream job. I think we covered levels one, two, and four. But paint a picture for number three, the best realistically optimal job we might have in life.

Lauren McGoodwin

I think going back to the example of my friend, she was working in one type of marketing, and she’s transitioning to a different type of marketing. She was working for more of a startup-type company that had a little unpredictability with it, she’s going to go to a manufacturing company. So, on the surface, working for a big brand name, way cooler. The type of marketing she was doing? Flashy, cool, really, again, kind of that glitter and glue metaphor, it’s using that, fits into the glitter side.

But she is moving over to manufacturing, definitely not as flashy and cool, doesn’t look as good as a big brand name on LinkedIn, and she’s going to be doing kind of a more traditional marketing route. Now, for someone who’s looking at this, they’re like, “Wait, she’s going from this really cool job to this really boring job.”

But that, for her, she maybe sees this shift from being like, “I had my dream job and it hasn’t necessarily been a ‘dream.’ I’m really ready to go to a good-enough job, a job that I can close my laptop at 5:00 p.m. because I do have young kids, and I want to be able to spend time with them. I get flexibility. I have remote work status with this one. Instead of getting equity, I’m getting a higher paycheck.”

So, again, thinking about “What are my top priorities? And I’m going to get them at this place. Even though it might not be the ‘dream’ on paper to somebody, for me it’s a good-enough job. It doesn’t ask me to give up my life in exchange for the job.” And that is something that I think is really important. A good-enough job is going to take you out of that tunnel vision you have or that fixed mindset that you have.

It’s maybe going to take the pressure off you that you’re feeling right now. Maybe it’s going to give you clarity because you’re not going to see your workplace as your dream, so maybe you’ll be able to recognize when there’s toxicity happening in a workplace more often, things like that. And so, for me, when I hear someone who saying, “You know, I’m kind of leaving the cool, flashy thing. I’m going to go over here but I’m being paid more. It seems like I’m going to have really good work-life balance. So far, from the people I’ve interviewed with, I really like them.”

It’s like they have this surprise factor, where they’re like, “But I should like this big, cool company, checking the box for me.” And I think that is the dream job versus good-enough job kind of conundrum, is sort of this mindset of, like, “I should want this thing. This thing should kind fulfill me, and why doesn’t it?” And so, I’m really proud of people who can make the shift over to “those good-enough jobs” for them.

And it’s not easy to make those decisions and determine, “What are my values? What are my top priorities? Now I have to find a company that fits.” I’m making this sound like it just landed onto their lap but I think it does take some internal work of getting over these preconceived misconceptions of what you should want.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s really cool. And this conversation about dream jobs is making me think about, I guess, there’s been a recent trend of big personalities on YouTube quitting YouTube, which is funny because I understand that the data reveal that young people now, more than they want to be teachers or firefighters, they want to be YouTubers. So, that’s the job, I guess, everyone wants. They think it’s the coolest. Not an astronaut but a YouTuber.

And so, folks who are YouTubers, who are collecting over half a million dollars of income for creatively making videos, are like, “I can’t take this anymore,” which is fascinating in terms of a picture of the dream job doesn’t exist. And if you dig deeper, you sort of learn that, “Oh, well, behind the surface of just making cool videos, they got to manage a team, and brand deals, and books, and accounting, and everyone wants a piece of them.”

Lauren McGoodwin

And the comments, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis

It’s like, the reality is, “Huh, it’s not just a creative wonderland of nonstop adulation for me being me, but there’s a ton of responsibilities that are sufficient to overwhelm a portion of these people who have what appears to be an ultimate dream job.”

Lauren McGoodwin

Yeah, absolutely. And that’s tough, I’m sure. It’s very hard for them to walk away from that because it’s that feeling of, like, “You’re not just going to get this back if you change your mind,” meaning, like, the person who worked all the way to become the partner of a law firm, and I’m only using that as an example because I feel we hear a lot about lawyers who are, like, “It wasn’t what I thought it’s going to be.”

But anybody who kind of gets in that golden handcuff rut sort of thing in their career, it’s very hard to walk away from that. And that’s why I think it’s important to kind of share the message early on about good-enough job versus dream jobs. Careers are long and windy, and you take U-turns and left turns and right turns, and up and down. It’s not this linear career path.

And the more we can kind of, I think, spread this education about what a career is, or what a career path looks like, I mean, I came from the generation very much of, like, this ladder and the lean in, just lean in to saying yes to things. That just hasn’t been the reality I’ve experienced, and I think many of the women I’ve talked to and interviewed, or experts that I’ve interviewed, that hasn’t been their experience.

And same with our audience at Career Contessa, it’s like your best skillset to building a fulfilling career is a person who is being proactive in the driver’s seat of their career versus the reactive to whatever is coming your way. And then, again, also studying this mindset of, like, “I’m part of that world, too,” just thinking about your values, determining kind of your purpose, thinking about, again, I have this phrase about how to be invaluable at work.

And people are always asking because they’re like, “Oh, I thought you want to be indispensable.” And I always say, “Look, but if you’re indispensable to a role, how can you grow because they can’t afford to lose you?” So, that’s a different mentality when you’re indispensable, the company is saying you’re primed for overwork because they can’t afford to lose you versus the mentality of, “We don’t want to lose you,” so you’re primed for more valuable work, for example.

So, again, these are just like this is the lessons that I think is kind of one can learn early on. It’s actually very helpful throughout your career. A lot of us, to your point about the YouTuber that many of us learn at mid-life or later on, and so that’s why I’m here to spread this information

Pete Mockaitis

That’s lovely. Well, I do want to hear more about your unique vantage point. So, with the Career Contessa podcast and YouTube channel and speaking, you have a fun vantage point. And I know when I dork out and look into all my analytics and things, and emails from listeners and see, “Okay, what’s really the hot stuff in terms of what people really want to know, and what kind of content advice, wisdom, is resonantly transformational for them?”

So, Lauren, if I could put you on the spot to share with us maybe three super nuggets that you’ve collected from your time podcasting and engaging with so many folks, what have been some of your favorite discoveries?

Lauren McGoodwin

I interviewed a woman once on what actually drives happiness at work, and I still love this conversation, and they were relationships, purpose, and autonomy. And I really loved that because I feel like happiness at work sometimes feel like this very elusive thing, and I guess in a way it is, but I thought that was a really fun conversation. Sometimes you have conversations where you learn something, and you’re like, “Wow, that’s certainly a puzzle piece to the career puzzle.”

I think another big piece for me is the difference between, like I said, being invaluable at work versus being indispensable. I really fit this millennial woman stereotype of the, like, work hard until they recognize your work. I very much learned through my own experiences, but also through our audience and talking to people, it’s really important to advocate for yourself.

There are good ways to advocate, bragging, however you want to call it. Some people don’t like it. They’re like, instead of advocating, think of it as self-expression. However you need to see this, it is very important that you are able to talk about your wins, and your accomplishments, and your achievements. So, those have been some big wins for me.

The other thing, I think, that’s been kind of eye-opening in terms of stuff I’d learned is, like, it’s interesting that you can outperform someone and not necessarily be better than them, and I think that’s a hard reality. And part of that comes down to they might be better at telling their story, they’re better at managing that, I guess, “playing the game.” And I think that sometimes, again, like a hard reality to come to terms with, but I also think it’s very true.

And so, again, self-advocating, learning how to tell your story, making sure that you’re aligned with the right stakeholders and getting in front of them, that’s really important. And, also, that confidence is not something you’re born with. It’s built by taking action. So, nothing is going to just come to you. You have to have the confidence and the willingness to try something in order to start getting traction.

So, if I could drop it into three nuggets of wisdom, those are like some three big takeaways I’ve had in the last year of talking. I have the best job because, through the podcast, YouTube channel, what we do at the side, our whole job is basically trying to find out, “How can you build a healthy fulfilling and successful career?” It is not a perfect black and white formula that fits in a box for everybody. But there are certain trends that I hear over and over again, and those are a few of them.

Pete Mockaitis

Cool. Well, could you tell us a cool story of someone that you’ve worked with who saw a real cool transformation in terms of they had one perspective, and then they learned some things, changed some things, and saw a fantastic result on the other side of things?

Lauren McGoodwin

Well, I have a couple. I have a friend who recently was working for a thing company, and their whole career was, like, the Googles, the LinkedIns, the Amazons, the Facebook, very much like you look at her career path, you’d be like, “You’ve got one very linear career path at a certain type of company,” was part of the layoffs that happened, has been searching for a job, and was kind of only searching one way for a job, which was, essentially, using her network, referrals, applying, things like that, introductions to hire, relying on her network.

For a whole year, she’s been looking for a job. She’s incredibly talented. And one of the things that I thought was really interesting is she recently hit the Easy Apply button on LinkedIn to a job that had been reposted a couple of times, had less than 50 people apply for it, it was a very different industry than she had been in before but a similar job, like job function, and ended up going for two interviews, got a job offer, meaning the process was like weeks’ long versus multi-months long.

And I was talking to her, and she was like, “I’m almost afraid to take this because it’s the complete opposite of anything I’ve ever done, and it flips all the logic I’ve thought of on its head.” And so, it was almost like she was uncomfortable with this unknown for herself, of like, “Shouldn’t I just keep sticking with what I’m doing even if it’s not working? Eventually it will work.” And she ultimately decided she’s going to take this new job, couldn’t be happier. It very much fits the description of this “good-enough job.”

She goes into the office once a month. They really value her experience in a certain industry. She was feeling very discouraged from the job search before. And I feel this breathes new life into her, and watching her just have this new motivation. And I thought that was really interesting because so many of us sometimes do have this fear of the unknown, or the fear or doing something different. And there were a couple of takeaways from it.

One, there’s no right way to job search. So, if you’re job searching right now, try a lot of different strategies. Yes, tap your network. Yes, try to get referrals. Also hit Easy Apply to the jobs that you think are really interesting to you, or the companies where you’re like, “I like the company well enough. I need to learn more about them.”

So, I love that story. I love the fact that it reminds you that find a target company, network, absolutely. This job market, absolutely has taught me that there are no rules so you have to try a little bit of everything and test out, and see what strategy works best for you. But ultimately, I think, also, going in with if you can manage your expectations to not be too fixed mindset on it has to go a certain way, if you take some those, I think it’s a really freeing thing as well.

Pete Mockaitis

Cool. Thank you. Well, now I’m curious, anything else you really make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Lauren McGoodwin

Well, my book is called Power Moves so if you’re interested in exploring more of these topics related to the dream job and going after the good-enough job, Power Moves is really a framework on how to build a career that is based in a proactive approach versus a reactive approach. And then, of course, my podcast is called Career Contessa. I’ve really made it easy, and that’s where I get to talk to people who share what drives happiness at work. And I love being able to have those interesting conversations. So, if you’re interested in podcast advice, or career advice, check out Career Contessa as well.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Lauren McGoodwin

My favorite quote that I learned from someone the other day is, “This or something better.” And I think that is an incredible quote especially for 2024 with this economic climate, this tough job market, it’s “This or something better.” So, remind yourself of that when you feel like, “I’m not making any progress. I’ve got a rejection.” And I always try to remind people, if they don’t look at your resume, they’re not rejecting you. My point being they look at your resume for seven seconds, or not at all, having a fresh mindset of, “That’s not necessarily a rejection that way,” but it’s, “This or something better.”

Pete Mockaitis

And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Lauren McGoodwin

I’m loving people who are doing research on remote work or distributed work. So, there’s a lot of CEOs out there who want to call everyone back to the office because of productivity, collaboration. And what these people who do this research are finding is, like, absolutely not necessary to be in office to collaborate, to be productive. And they’re actually doing a lot of research on what does drive those things.

Pete Mockaitis

Awesome. And a favorite book?

Lauren McGoodwin

A favorite book, Atomic Habits. I love that book. I quote it a lot. That and Essentialism I think they were like books I’ve read at the right time of my life to help me kind of get organized and focus, and gave me that fresh perspective that was really important.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to help you be awesome at your job?

Lauren McGoodwin

Loom video recordings where, basically, you’re able to audio record yourself, or you can be on video, and then a screenshare. So, I’ll use it for trainings. It’s great for asynchronous work where you want to be able to send feedback to someone on something. So, on our team, we’re a fully remote company, so I will use Loom to send feedback on, “Hey, I read this article. Here’s something I would change. I’m going to edit here, edit there.” Sometimes we’ll use it for resume reviews for clients, too. So, I love Loom absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite habit?

Lauren McGoodwin

Favorite habit, probably a to-do list. Definitely a to-do list. And I’m not fancy. I use pen and paper but that’s probably one of my favorite habits. I also am really big on 10,000 steps a day, so I just got a walking pad, and I have a standing desk, so that’s a big part of my personality is I’m a very 10,000 steps a day.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Lauren McGoodwin

Certainly, just the dream job myth, I think, is something that people are starting to know me by, is that they’ll say, “I know you don’t believe in dream jobs, but I’m looking for a dream job,” or something like that. Or, “I know you don’t believe in dream jobs, but then what do I find instead?” So, I would say the dream job myth is definitely something I’m quoted back and used on myself a lot.

Pete Mockaitis

And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Lauren McGoodwin

Everything is on the Career Contessa website, so CareerContessa.com. Podcast is called Career Contessa, and the book is Power Moves. And then you can connect with me on LinkedIn, I’m Lauren McGoodwin on LinkedIn, and I post tips daily on there, and I would love to connect with you.

Pete Mockaitis

And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Lauren McGoodwin

My final action, I think, going back to one of the nuggets of things I’ve learned is “How can you advocate for yourself this week? Or, how can you make your accomplishments or achievements known this week?” Does that mean you can send a quick email to your boss, of, “Here’s a quick recap of what I’ve been working on”? Can you mention yourself in that Slack channel, like, “Here’s my win for the week”? What can you do to make sure that you are advocating and letting your wins be known?

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Lauren, thank you and good luck.

Lauren McGoodwin

Thank you.

Dec 10
0

922: How to Reinvent Yourself and Your Career with Herminia Ibarra

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Herminia Ibarra shares counter-intuitive perspectives on how to make successful career transitions.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to craft and execute your “identity experiments”
  2. How to figure out your next best option in two questions
  3. How to reach out and build your network

About Herminia

Herminia Ibarra is the Charles Handy Professor of Organisational Behaviour at London Business School. Prior to joining LBS, she served on the INSEAD and Harvard Business School faculties.

An authority on leadership and career development, Thinkers 50 ranks Herminia among the top management thinkers in the world. She is a member of the World Economic Forum’s Expert Network, a judge for the Financial Times Business Book of the Year Award, a Fellow of the British Academy, and the 2018 recipient of the Academy of Management’s Scholar-Practitioner Award for her research’s contribution to management practice.

Herminia is the author of two bestselling books, Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader and Working Identity. 

A native of Cuba, Herminia received her MA and PhD from Yale University, where she was a National Science Fellow.

Resources Mentioned

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Herminia Ibarra Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Herminia, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Herminia Ibarra
Hi, how are you?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m doing well. I’m doing well. I’m excited to talk career transitions and your latest edition of the book Working Identity. But to kick us off, I’d love it if you could tell us a couple stories of any particularly memorable career transitions that you’ve had the pleasure of studying or working with. And maybe for funsies, let’s have one be amazingly delightful and one totally disastrous.

Herminia Ibarra
All right. Let me try. Delightful and disastrous, all of them have an aspect of delightful and all of them have their challenges. The one that’s coming to mind is a really fun one was a very straight-laced mid-career person who felt that he had always done what he was supposed to do, got really thinking about what he himself wanted.

And so, at some point, he decided to explore. He took a sabbatical and started to explore. And in his head, one of his big ideas was he loves scuba diving, and, “Could I do this for a living?” And so, one of the things that he did was to take the sabbatical and to get certified, and to explore the financials for buying a scuba diving operation.

And, very fortunately for him, as the sabbatical played out over a couple of months, he realized towards the end of it that it might not be so much fun to spend his whole life doing that, and that the salary he would take relative to the business work that he was doing was probably not worth it. But he was able to say, “I explored this to the hilt, and now I know it’s not what I want but at least I gave it a go.” And so, he was very happy to be able to cross that off his list.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And do you have another side?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah. Well, a disastrous one, I’ll tell you a disastrous one that eventually worked out. The disastrous one was a woman who was leading the change leadership practice of a consulting firm, and she wanted more balance, she wanted to run something, there were a lot of things that were wrong with it.

Pete Mockaitis
She needed to lead a change in her own career, it seems.

Herminia Ibarra

Yeah, and she did not have time to explore other possibilities. This is a challenge a lot of people face, “I work too much. I don’t have the time or the energy.” So, she saved up, she really planned, and got ready to start exploring but, in no time at all, was feeling, like, “Oh, my gosh, what do I do? And what’s going to happen? And what next?” And she would notice that in her networking, that since she was out of job, people didn’t want to network with her. She wasn’t especially useful.

And so, as she got nervous, she ended up taking a role that a headhunter brought her, which was to do something similar in a company to be heading up strategy. And she thought, “Okay, here’s a change,” and she thought she had negotiated more that work-life balance she was seeking, but as soon as she started the job, it became obvious that it was worse from a trial and work-life balance point of view. And not only that, as a newcomer, she hadn’t built up any capital to be able to kind of work around it.

And so, she felt really, really stuck, and came to the conclusion that she had to quit before it really took off because it was just, really, she wouldn’t be able to extricate herself for a couple of years. So, she quit and then really found herself with nothing at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that sounds disastrous. Shucks! Well, I hope she’s okay. Do we know what happened after that?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, it ended happily ever after, in the sense that she said, “All right. I obviously am not trusting my instincts here. Let me try to do a bunch of different things.” She set up kind of a freelance advisory that allowed her to pay the bills, which she was able to do because she was very good and she had a great network.

But this time, she set aside a little bit of time to kind of play around with things that she was interested in. She did some nonprofit volunteering. She did a bunch of stuff. And over time, she made her way towards developing a whole new career in the space around consulting for nonprofits, which she was very happy about but it took a while for that to materialize. It really started out as a kind of, “Here’s a hobby. Here’s a thing I enjoy doing. And let me do that. Just stay sane.” And it became her next career.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, good news. Thank you for sharing how that unfolded there. Well, these stories are awesome because they’re already pointing to some key points associated with doing this career transition thing effectively, is having the opportunity to try some things out, to get a taste of things in advance, and sometimes you learn, “Oh, wow, cross that off the list. Scuba diving is not the thing,” and that’s valuable.

And that reminds me. I had a conversation, this was funny. There was a period of time in my career in which I did thousands of case interview coaching sessions for aspiring consultants wanting to prepare for those interviews. And one of my favorite sessions, this happened only once, was I worked through the case, and I said, “Okay. Well, hey, here’s some feedback. So, kind of what I was looking for is for you to put forward a hypothesis and then a structure, and then you game plan for what sorts of things you were going to investigate in order to assess whether or not that’s what’s going on, and to drill down into the more relevant issues.”

And he said, “Oh, wow, my brain doesn’t go that way at all. I guess I don’t want to be a consultant.” And it was awesome.

Herminia Ibarra
That’s fantastic.

Pete Mockaitis
He paid for the session, and I was a little worried, like, “Uh-oh, did he get what he paid for?” And he was thrilled, he’s like, “Wow, in one hour, I have determined that I am going to not pursue consulting at all, and look at these other opportunities instead. Thank you so much, Pete.” I was like, “Well, thank you. I’m so glad we had a positive exchange here.”

Herminia Ibarra

See, that’s fantastic because one of the things that I have found is that people have all kinds of ideas in their heads of what they like and they don’t like, and they often don’t check out in reality. Just last week, I was talking to a reporter, a journalist from the Wall Street Journal, and she told me that she had dreamed forever of being able to write for a living, to just write books.

And she gave it a try and she couldn’t stand it. She got her book but jumped right back into a journalism job because she just did not want to do that exclusively. She realized it wasn’t for her. And so, the big lesson is really to try as actively as you can, especially before making any kind of big leap, because we don’t really know whether we would really enjoy these things or not. All we know really well is what we don’t like anymore or what we don’t like about our current job, but we don’t know what we’d like to do instead. And so, exploring and experimenting is really vital.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And that seems to be a real theme associated with the book Working Identity is that we’ve got to try and do things, we have to experiment, get a taste and see how it fits, how it feels. Can you share with us what are some of the alternative viewpoints in terms of doing a career transition? Like, what would you say, Herminia, is what not to do when you’re making a career transition?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, the conventional approach is to figure out what you want and then create a plan to execute it. You know the answer, “Where do you want to be five years from now? And then what are the steps? And then what class do I have to take? Or, who do I need to meet?” And then just kind put it all in place. It works quite well when you do know what you want. And it also works quite well earlier in your career where you’re more likely to go into kind of, like, a structured setup.

It works less well, or not at all, when you don’t know what you want, as is the case for most of the people that I talk to who, for mid-career on, they know what they don’t want, but they do not know what they want instead. And it works less well also when you’re more experienced because there’s just more pathways from A to Z, or from A to D. There’s more different approaches that you could take to get to where you want to go.

Pete Mockaitis
So, figure out what you want is perhaps easier said than done, or folks have a misunderstanding of what they thought they wanted. Or, can you unpack this for us?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, see, there’s all kinds of things. We pigeonhole ourselves, you say, “Oh, I’m not a creative person,” or, “I’m not an entrepreneurial person,” or whatever. We pigeonhole ourselves. There’s all kinds of things we’ve never been exposed to before. Sometimes you meet somebody by serendipity, discover what they’re doing, think, “Gosh, this would be fascinating.”

So, there’s lots of reasons, you haven’t seen it before, you don’t know it exists. It wasn’t necessarily what you were thinking about. Whereas, we get fixated on this one thing, and the problem is that stresses people up because they don’t know what that one thing might be, and then they think, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t do anything at all because I’m not very self-aware, or I don’t know myself. I need to introspect and discover who I really am.”

But that doesn’t really help either because the only thing that really gets us going is to get exposed to possibilities that are real, and to get into contact with people who do those things, who can help us investigate them further and learn more about them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Herminia Ibarra
And serendipity happens, too. I’ll tell you another quick story. This is someone who was in the financial world, and had always dreamed of doing something in interior design, something more artsy, and it just wasn’t going to happen because the financials didn’t work out. And so, she got to stay doing what she was doing.

Kind of out the blue, one of her clients, who had really appreciated her financial savvy, said, “As you know, I have this film company, and I’d really like you to be my chief financial officer and COO. I’d like you to run this.” She’d never thought, “I’d like to be in film.” She’d never thought, “I’d like to run a company.” But this was a relationship that worked very well for her, it was a way of doing something more creative, she knew the person. She took the leap, did it, and has really found it to be a fantastic move for her.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful.

Herminia Ibarra
How could you extract that out of your head? Never.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, lay it on us then, you’ve got some concepts associated with the possible selves and doing some identity experiments to explore the possible selves. Can you define or unpack these terms for us?

Herminia Ibarra
Yes, of course. So, the conventional approach, which I call an implement is you start out with the right answer and then you follow the steps. The less conventional approach, which is what I have found tends to happen when people make career change, I call experiment and learn. And the way that unfolds is you start to envision what I call possible selves.

Possible selves are ideas about who you might become in the future. They could be anything. They could be a very clear idea you have. They could be what other people think you want to do. They could be your feared possible self who you don’t want to become. They could be very nascent, very vague and fuzzy possibilities, “I think I’d like to do something more creative,” for example. So, you start with that, with some hunches. And what I always recommend to people is to not be afraid to make the list long and divergent, kind of the opposite of the conventional wisdom.

The conventional wisdom is “Focus. Know what you want.” This is not. Brainstorm with yourself. What are they? And then start somewhere. Now, for some people, this is pretty organic, and that is they’re working their day job and they’ve started on a project, maybe they were helping a friend who had a startup, maybe they had a side hustle on Etsy, maybe they took a course. Somebody I know took a course in – what’s it called – gemology, having to do with stones and jewelry, and that kind of led her on a path.

So, for a lot of people, you have this side activity that you’re interested in and it leads you on a path towards where you realize this could be your next job and career. And once it’s developed enough, you leave and you take it on. And so, it’s a possible self that is nascent that’s been developing, “Oh, maybe this might be my next career,” “Oh, maybe this could be a good thing to do.”

For other people, they don’t have that. They don’t have that. They’re kind of stuck, “I know I don’t like what I’m doing,” or, “I’ve lost my job,” that happens more and more today, “What should I do instead?” Brainstorm a list of possibilities. Don’t be afraid to have things that are a little bit more conventional or a little bit less conventional.

My friend, the scuba diver who I told you about, he had a three-pronged list. One list was conventional jobs that he talked to headhunters about, kind of his line. Another one was kind more of artsy, folkloric kind of things, the scuba dive, the wine business, a BNB business. And a third was identifying entrepreneurs that he found interesting, and tried to see if he could get a role working with them to learn from them. So, three-pronged kind of approach.

But the idea is to generate a bunch of possibilities and then start exploring one. Maybe you take a course in that area. Maybe some people want to have at least as a side hustle, being on boards of directors so they’ll a course on being a non-executive director. Or, some people, a very popular thing, is to become a coach, an executive coach, a business coach. People will take a course, and they’ll take the course. If they’re still in their job, they take it on the side. If they’re not working, they take it and they practice it.

And that’s a possibility that they’re exploring. It may not be the thing that you move into, but it has the advantage of getting you going. If it’s not it, it makes you understand why not. If it’s promising and it allows you to explore more, it gets you in touch with other people who are also in the process of making changes, and that’s always helpful because you don’t want to be alone in your head, thinking, “I’m the only one who’s taking forever, who’s unsure about what to do.”

It creates a sense of kinship with other people who are going through a journey as well, and it creates a context in which you have to explain yourself all the time, which is also helpful because the more you have to explain yourself, the clearer you become about what you’re trying to do and why. So, any action, basically, is helpful. If you know, follow your nose. If you don’t, take any action and get started on a path.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Well, I’d love it if we could generate just a big list of experiments and approaches for getting a taste of things. And so, volunteering, taking a course, maybe going to events and meeting the people at the events. I guess there’s even more passive stuff in the earliest of steps, like, “Well, let’s listen to a podcast about artificial intelligence…” if that’s the thing you think you’re into, “…and let’s start having some conversations with people who are there.” Like, “Hey, I read your thing. I listened to your episode,” and sort of step-by-step we get a taste for what’s going on.

What are some of your other favorite experiments or approaches you found really yield a boatload of insight for effort that you put into it?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, you’ve got the basics of the list there – take a course, volunteer, start up a business on the side, do advisory, get on a board, get class, give a class, all those things, all of those things. And one side is what you do, the activity. The other side is the new networks that gets you into. And the two of those things together help you understand, “Do I want to take the next step or do I not?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that and it’s much less intimidating in terms of all at once, one giant leap, yes or no, launch, don’t launch versus, “Huh, okay. That was cool. How about another step?” I suppose at some points there are big old milestones, like, “No, for real. Like, I got to decide if I’ve got to pursue a doctorate in order to do the science thingy that I think sounds cool, or I’m not.” So, I’m curious, are there any particular questions, either for the internal reflection or for your new network, that you think are supremely useful and insightful as you’re navigating your experiments?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, there’s basically two questions you’re asking yourself, “Is this an attractive option? Yes. No.” “Is this feasible in terms of my need to make a living in the world? Yes. No.” And you are kind of inching your way through those questions, “Is it attractive? Is it feasible?” And feasible is not just only in terms of the money. It’s also in terms of, “Will I be able to develop the skill set necessary to truly plant a foot in that world?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, the consultant in me is creating a two-by-two matrix in my mind’s eye. I can’t help myself. Let’s hear some examples of things that might be in each of those quadrants. And I guess it’ll be super individually specific, like, what’s attractive to one person is totally repulsive to another. But I guess in terms of not feasible, like, I could probably not be an Olympic gymnast now as a 40-year-old man who has not trained in that domain. But I guess I’m such a big dreamer, I think almost anything is possible.

So, maybe you could ground us. You be the dream-killer for a moment, what are some areas where you’ve had to gently encourage folks, like, “You know what, maybe back off or rethink that a little bit. That’s probably highly risky and not quite feasible in its current incarnation”?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, that doesn’t really happen. Nobody does to themselves, “At age 45, I want to be an astronaut or I want to be a rocket scientist.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, in a way, I’m a little sad.

Herminia Ibarra
Although, you do have people. You do have people. This is not somebody that I studied but I ran across, somebody told me a story recently of somebody, you know how they tell people, “What did you want to do when you were a kid?” and this person had always wanted to be an astronaut, and he ended up, I don’t know, either training astronauts or coaching astronauts, but kind of found his way into the aerospace industry via some things that he had done before and some things he was able to acquire as skills, and found himself delighted to be in that kind of atmosphere.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, what I love about that is you may have a desire to be an astronaut, and I guess the right answer is not to dismiss that, “That’s ridiculous. Let’s throw that away,” but rather to dig a little deeper, it’s like, “Well, what is it about being astronaut that seems cool?” It’s like, “I like the idea of being in a rocket going superfast.” Like, okay, maybe you can just start flying small planes as a hobby or something, and you can scratch that itch.”

Or, maybe it’s, “Space is so fascinating.” “Well, there’s many space-adjacent sorts of opportunities that you can go for.” Or, “I always admire the astronauts themselves, their stories and their heroism and their bravery.” It’s like, “Oh, well, then you could train astronauts and get close to them even if you’re not going out into outer space.” So, I think that’s pretty cool that those initial seeds can grow in some handy directions.

Herminia Ibarra
Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m curious on the networking side of things, do you have any pro tips on how you recommend reaching out, asking for help or guidance or input or conversations as you’re navigating these experiments?

Herminia Ibarra
So, the first is start right away. A lot of people don’t start because they say to themselves, “I don’t know what I want. I’m going to sound confused so I’m going to kind of blow a good contact and I’m not going to make a good impression.” However, if you don’t start, you’re not going to figure it out. And so, by this point, everybody is familiar with the informational interview and kind of the exploratory coffee.

Maybe reach out to people who are not the CEO of the company you’d like to work for until you’ve had a little bit of practice. But the most important thing is to start right away and to contact a lot of people. Most people don’t realize how many conversations it takes, how many coffees, how many times reaching out on LinkedIn.

Just recently, I did a webinar online for people who are interested in career change, and we asked them, we did a survey ahead of time, and we asked them, “How confident are you in your ability to make this change, to make a change successfully?” And we also asked them about their networks, we asked them how many conversations they’ve had already about career change, and it varied wildly from hundreds of them, or hundred something, to very few. And there was a very strong correlation.

The more people you talk to, the more confident you felt about the possibility because, as you talk to people, first of all, you find out everybody has got a story about career change. Lots of people do. It’s very reassuring to hear that other people with a similar background as you ended up doing something very different, and successfully so, and happily so. And they’ll encourage you, and you’ll get more ideas about what to do, let alone than actually find leads and referrals for specific positions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Herminia Ibarra
So, start, reach out, be honest. At first, you might be saying, “I’m exploring the possibility of a change. I’m looking into different options. I’m trying to kind of brainstorm some possibilities.” Afterwards, you might say, “I’m really interested in this sector and I’m trying to figure out which way to position myself in or which way to go in it.” After that, “I’m trying to get a foot in this door.” It’s a progression.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. I like those questions. Any particularly magical turns of phrases that you’re fond of?

Herminia Ibarra
No, there’s no magic. Yeah, the magic is, “I’d like your help. I’d like your input. I’d like to hear your story.” It’s very simple things.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose what I found, and what I really like about your answer, “No, there’s no magic,” is that I have witnessed before, I think there’s one guy in particular, he reached out to me, wants some career advice, and he was a total stranger. I think we were in the same LinkedIn Group, so about the weakest of connections that there can exists, so I had no idea who this person was but, what the heck, I chat with them.

 

And then, I asked him out of curiosity, “Hey, so you just kind of found me out of the blue and in the cold on LinkedIn, like have you been reaching out to other people? And how often do people say yes?” And, to my delight, he had a very detailed notebook of everybody he reached out to, and the results of those reach-outs, and I believe the number was something like 28% of total strangers were willing to have a chat with him. And I thought that was cool.

And his message wasn’t magical. It was short. It was direct. It was clear. He made it easy for me, it’s like, “Hey, I’d love to come get coffee with you wherever it’s convenient, perhaps A, B, C times to hear more about this and that.” And I was like, “Okay, sure.” And I thought that was pretty encouraging.

Herminia Ibarra
That’s it. That’s it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. All right. Well, Herminia, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, on that note about the weakest of ties, we know that those are the ones that are the most helpful, in fact, because friends and family and close colleagues, they have the same information you do. And when it comes to career change, they’re more apt to worry that you’re going to do something foolish. Whereas, perfect strangers might think that your kookiest plans are actually wonderful.

And LinkedIn studied this directly because there’s this famous theory about the strength of weak ties, how we tend to get our next job through people we don’t know so well or don’t see that often. And there was an experiment with LinkedIn in which they manipulated what people you were fed as people you might know, and in some cases, they gave you closer connections, and in another case, more distant. And the more distance were indeed the ones that were the most productive for figuring out a next job.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. Well, now could you share with us a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, a favorite study is the original strength of weak ties research in which researchers studied how people found jobs and what were the contacts that led them to leads that became their next jobs. And it was all personal contacts by and large. This was before LinkedIn, which is not quite can be personal but also a bit institutionalized. But it was mostly personal contacts that led people to their next job, but the surprising thing was that it was not close colleagues. It was distant acquaintances.

And the reason was not people always think, “It’s because your close colleagues know your fatal flaws.” That’s not it. The reason was that they have the same information you do because they circulate in the same circles and the same waters. Whereas, more distant acquaintances are more likely to be working somewhere else and to be seeing different things, and, therefore, are more likely to suggest something novel to you.

But it’s a wonderful study because it’s counterintuitive, and I see this over and over again. People get started, trying to make a career change, and they turn to friends and family because it’s more reassuring, because they don’t want everybody to know, but it is really these weak ties, these more distant acquaintances that really make a difference. People we used to work with, for example, are huge in terms of generating leads for next possible things to do.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And could you share a favorite book?

Herminia Ibarra
A favorite book. I’m just looking at my bookshelf. I’ve always loved the old classic, William Bridges’ Transitions, about beginnings. No, he goes, endings, middles, and beginnings about the phases of transition and why it’s so difficult. That’s a favorite.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use that helps you be awesome at your job?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, now I use ChatGPT for everything, not to write anything for me but for some basic research and ideas.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, now I’ve been playing with it myself. Tell me, what are some of your favorite use cases where you think this thing really shines?

Herminia Ibarra

Well, I had, for example, a bunch of open-ended answers to a survey. It was kind of a long number. And I asked it to code them for me into categories, and then do counts of different categories. So, that’s kind of like a research assistant. It’s very good at outlining things. I’d never taken care of my Wikipedia entry. If somebody had written it, it was not accurate. And so, I asked it to write it for me, and it outlined it very well. It did hallucinate articles I had never written but that’s okay. I knew which ones to put in but it was perfect.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s flattering. The robot assumed that you must’ve written that because of your notoriety and wit and insight. So, with the coding of results, that’s intriguing. Did you just straight up drag and drop a spreadsheet file into it? Or, how did that work in terms of tactical execution?

Herminia Ibarra
When I first did it, yeah, I just entered all the…I don’t remember now if it was in the spreadsheet. Then my research assistant took over, and she did use it with Excel, but I think I just dropped everything in. And it got a little bit overwhelmed, and so we had to work it in some batches but, yeah, it did a pretty good job. And then we kind of negotiated on the categories a bit. You have to work with it but it did a great job.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And could you share a favorite habit, something you do that supports you in being awesome at your job?

Herminia Ibarra
No, this is actually a real thing. My habit is to work from home as long as possible in the morning, which is when my brain is at its best. And so, I try to do any kind of writing or course development that I need to get done at that time, and then go into the office later, or go into the other things later.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular you share that really seems to connect and resonate with people and they quote it back to you often?

Herminia Ibarra

It’s this idea that we tend to know what we don’t want but we don’t know what we want instead, but the only way that we figure it out is by going out and exploring as opposed to waiting until we figure it out in our head. That resonates with people. The other thing that resonates a lot is that when people read Working Identity, one of the things they always come back to me on is, “Oh, my gosh, I’m not the only one. It gave me relief I’m not the only one that was so confused or nonlinear.”

And the nugget is that no matter how clear you are in your head about what you want next, career transitions always take longer and are messier than anyone ever imagined, and that’s just part of the process.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Herminia Ibarra
HerminiaIbarra.com, Herminia Ibarra at LinkedIn, and Herminia Ibarra at X.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, the funny thing is that my subject is not so much about being awesome at your job but being awesome at extricating yourself from that job. But I guess what I would say is if it’s not been awesome for some time, it is really a good moment to start dabbling on the side with other ideas and possibilities.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Herminia, thank you. This has been a lot of fun.

Herminia Ibarra
Thanks so much, Pete. I really enjoyed it.