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Dec 10
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922: How to Reinvent Yourself and Your Career with Herminia Ibarra

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Herminia Ibarra shares counter-intuitive perspectives on how to make successful career transitions.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to craft and execute your “identity experiments”
  2. How to figure out your next best option in two questions
  3. How to reach out and build your network

About Herminia

Herminia Ibarra is the Charles Handy Professor of Organisational Behaviour at London Business School. Prior to joining LBS, she served on the INSEAD and Harvard Business School faculties.

An authority on leadership and career development, Thinkers 50 ranks Herminia among the top management thinkers in the world. She is a member of the World Economic Forum’s Expert Network, a judge for the Financial Times Business Book of the Year Award, a Fellow of the British Academy, and the 2018 recipient of the Academy of Management’s Scholar-Practitioner Award for her research’s contribution to management practice.

Herminia is the author of two bestselling books, Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader and Working Identity. 

A native of Cuba, Herminia received her MA and PhD from Yale University, where she was a National Science Fellow.

Resources Mentioned

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Herminia Ibarra Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Herminia, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Herminia Ibarra
Hi, how are you?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m doing well. I’m doing well. I’m excited to talk career transitions and your latest edition of the book Working Identity. But to kick us off, I’d love it if you could tell us a couple stories of any particularly memorable career transitions that you’ve had the pleasure of studying or working with. And maybe for funsies, let’s have one be amazingly delightful and one totally disastrous.

Herminia Ibarra
All right. Let me try. Delightful and disastrous, all of them have an aspect of delightful and all of them have their challenges. The one that’s coming to mind is a really fun one was a very straight-laced mid-career person who felt that he had always done what he was supposed to do, got really thinking about what he himself wanted.

And so, at some point, he decided to explore. He took a sabbatical and started to explore. And in his head, one of his big ideas was he loves scuba diving, and, “Could I do this for a living?” And so, one of the things that he did was to take the sabbatical and to get certified, and to explore the financials for buying a scuba diving operation.

And, very fortunately for him, as the sabbatical played out over a couple of months, he realized towards the end of it that it might not be so much fun to spend his whole life doing that, and that the salary he would take relative to the business work that he was doing was probably not worth it. But he was able to say, “I explored this to the hilt, and now I know it’s not what I want but at least I gave it a go.” And so, he was very happy to be able to cross that off his list.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And do you have another side?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah. Well, a disastrous one, I’ll tell you a disastrous one that eventually worked out. The disastrous one was a woman who was leading the change leadership practice of a consulting firm, and she wanted more balance, she wanted to run something, there were a lot of things that were wrong with it.

Pete Mockaitis
She needed to lead a change in her own career, it seems.

Herminia Ibarra

Yeah, and she did not have time to explore other possibilities. This is a challenge a lot of people face, “I work too much. I don’t have the time or the energy.” So, she saved up, she really planned, and got ready to start exploring but, in no time at all, was feeling, like, “Oh, my gosh, what do I do? And what’s going to happen? And what next?” And she would notice that in her networking, that since she was out of job, people didn’t want to network with her. She wasn’t especially useful.

And so, as she got nervous, she ended up taking a role that a headhunter brought her, which was to do something similar in a company to be heading up strategy. And she thought, “Okay, here’s a change,” and she thought she had negotiated more that work-life balance she was seeking, but as soon as she started the job, it became obvious that it was worse from a trial and work-life balance point of view. And not only that, as a newcomer, she hadn’t built up any capital to be able to kind of work around it.

And so, she felt really, really stuck, and came to the conclusion that she had to quit before it really took off because it was just, really, she wouldn’t be able to extricate herself for a couple of years. So, she quit and then really found herself with nothing at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that sounds disastrous. Shucks! Well, I hope she’s okay. Do we know what happened after that?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, it ended happily ever after, in the sense that she said, “All right. I obviously am not trusting my instincts here. Let me try to do a bunch of different things.” She set up kind of a freelance advisory that allowed her to pay the bills, which she was able to do because she was very good and she had a great network.

But this time, she set aside a little bit of time to kind of play around with things that she was interested in. She did some nonprofit volunteering. She did a bunch of stuff. And over time, she made her way towards developing a whole new career in the space around consulting for nonprofits, which she was very happy about but it took a while for that to materialize. It really started out as a kind of, “Here’s a hobby. Here’s a thing I enjoy doing. And let me do that. Just stay sane.” And it became her next career.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, good news. Thank you for sharing how that unfolded there. Well, these stories are awesome because they’re already pointing to some key points associated with doing this career transition thing effectively, is having the opportunity to try some things out, to get a taste of things in advance, and sometimes you learn, “Oh, wow, cross that off the list. Scuba diving is not the thing,” and that’s valuable.

And that reminds me. I had a conversation, this was funny. There was a period of time in my career in which I did thousands of case interview coaching sessions for aspiring consultants wanting to prepare for those interviews. And one of my favorite sessions, this happened only once, was I worked through the case, and I said, “Okay. Well, hey, here’s some feedback. So, kind of what I was looking for is for you to put forward a hypothesis and then a structure, and then you game plan for what sorts of things you were going to investigate in order to assess whether or not that’s what’s going on, and to drill down into the more relevant issues.”

And he said, “Oh, wow, my brain doesn’t go that way at all. I guess I don’t want to be a consultant.” And it was awesome.

Herminia Ibarra
That’s fantastic.

Pete Mockaitis
He paid for the session, and I was a little worried, like, “Uh-oh, did he get what he paid for?” And he was thrilled, he’s like, “Wow, in one hour, I have determined that I am going to not pursue consulting at all, and look at these other opportunities instead. Thank you so much, Pete.” I was like, “Well, thank you. I’m so glad we had a positive exchange here.”

Herminia Ibarra

See, that’s fantastic because one of the things that I have found is that people have all kinds of ideas in their heads of what they like and they don’t like, and they often don’t check out in reality. Just last week, I was talking to a reporter, a journalist from the Wall Street Journal, and she told me that she had dreamed forever of being able to write for a living, to just write books.

And she gave it a try and she couldn’t stand it. She got her book but jumped right back into a journalism job because she just did not want to do that exclusively. She realized it wasn’t for her. And so, the big lesson is really to try as actively as you can, especially before making any kind of big leap, because we don’t really know whether we would really enjoy these things or not. All we know really well is what we don’t like anymore or what we don’t like about our current job, but we don’t know what we’d like to do instead. And so, exploring and experimenting is really vital.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And that seems to be a real theme associated with the book Working Identity is that we’ve got to try and do things, we have to experiment, get a taste and see how it fits, how it feels. Can you share with us what are some of the alternative viewpoints in terms of doing a career transition? Like, what would you say, Herminia, is what not to do when you’re making a career transition?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, the conventional approach is to figure out what you want and then create a plan to execute it. You know the answer, “Where do you want to be five years from now? And then what are the steps? And then what class do I have to take? Or, who do I need to meet?” And then just kind put it all in place. It works quite well when you do know what you want. And it also works quite well earlier in your career where you’re more likely to go into kind of, like, a structured setup.

It works less well, or not at all, when you don’t know what you want, as is the case for most of the people that I talk to who, for mid-career on, they know what they don’t want, but they do not know what they want instead. And it works less well also when you’re more experienced because there’s just more pathways from A to Z, or from A to D. There’s more different approaches that you could take to get to where you want to go.

Pete Mockaitis
So, figure out what you want is perhaps easier said than done, or folks have a misunderstanding of what they thought they wanted. Or, can you unpack this for us?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, see, there’s all kinds of things. We pigeonhole ourselves, you say, “Oh, I’m not a creative person,” or, “I’m not an entrepreneurial person,” or whatever. We pigeonhole ourselves. There’s all kinds of things we’ve never been exposed to before. Sometimes you meet somebody by serendipity, discover what they’re doing, think, “Gosh, this would be fascinating.”

So, there’s lots of reasons, you haven’t seen it before, you don’t know it exists. It wasn’t necessarily what you were thinking about. Whereas, we get fixated on this one thing, and the problem is that stresses people up because they don’t know what that one thing might be, and then they think, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t do anything at all because I’m not very self-aware, or I don’t know myself. I need to introspect and discover who I really am.”

But that doesn’t really help either because the only thing that really gets us going is to get exposed to possibilities that are real, and to get into contact with people who do those things, who can help us investigate them further and learn more about them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Herminia Ibarra
And serendipity happens, too. I’ll tell you another quick story. This is someone who was in the financial world, and had always dreamed of doing something in interior design, something more artsy, and it just wasn’t going to happen because the financials didn’t work out. And so, she got to stay doing what she was doing.

Kind of out the blue, one of her clients, who had really appreciated her financial savvy, said, “As you know, I have this film company, and I’d really like you to be my chief financial officer and COO. I’d like you to run this.” She’d never thought, “I’d like to be in film.” She’d never thought, “I’d like to run a company.” But this was a relationship that worked very well for her, it was a way of doing something more creative, she knew the person. She took the leap, did it, and has really found it to be a fantastic move for her.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful.

Herminia Ibarra
How could you extract that out of your head? Never.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, lay it on us then, you’ve got some concepts associated with the possible selves and doing some identity experiments to explore the possible selves. Can you define or unpack these terms for us?

Herminia Ibarra
Yes, of course. So, the conventional approach, which I call an implement is you start out with the right answer and then you follow the steps. The less conventional approach, which is what I have found tends to happen when people make career change, I call experiment and learn. And the way that unfolds is you start to envision what I call possible selves.

Possible selves are ideas about who you might become in the future. They could be anything. They could be a very clear idea you have. They could be what other people think you want to do. They could be your feared possible self who you don’t want to become. They could be very nascent, very vague and fuzzy possibilities, “I think I’d like to do something more creative,” for example. So, you start with that, with some hunches. And what I always recommend to people is to not be afraid to make the list long and divergent, kind of the opposite of the conventional wisdom.

The conventional wisdom is “Focus. Know what you want.” This is not. Brainstorm with yourself. What are they? And then start somewhere. Now, for some people, this is pretty organic, and that is they’re working their day job and they’ve started on a project, maybe they were helping a friend who had a startup, maybe they had a side hustle on Etsy, maybe they took a course. Somebody I know took a course in – what’s it called – gemology, having to do with stones and jewelry, and that kind of led her on a path.

So, for a lot of people, you have this side activity that you’re interested in and it leads you on a path towards where you realize this could be your next job and career. And once it’s developed enough, you leave and you take it on. And so, it’s a possible self that is nascent that’s been developing, “Oh, maybe this might be my next career,” “Oh, maybe this could be a good thing to do.”

For other people, they don’t have that. They don’t have that. They’re kind of stuck, “I know I don’t like what I’m doing,” or, “I’ve lost my job,” that happens more and more today, “What should I do instead?” Brainstorm a list of possibilities. Don’t be afraid to have things that are a little bit more conventional or a little bit less conventional.

My friend, the scuba diver who I told you about, he had a three-pronged list. One list was conventional jobs that he talked to headhunters about, kind of his line. Another one was kind more of artsy, folkloric kind of things, the scuba dive, the wine business, a BNB business. And a third was identifying entrepreneurs that he found interesting, and tried to see if he could get a role working with them to learn from them. So, three-pronged kind of approach.

But the idea is to generate a bunch of possibilities and then start exploring one. Maybe you take a course in that area. Maybe some people want to have at least as a side hustle, being on boards of directors so they’ll a course on being a non-executive director. Or, some people, a very popular thing, is to become a coach, an executive coach, a business coach. People will take a course, and they’ll take the course. If they’re still in their job, they take it on the side. If they’re not working, they take it and they practice it.

And that’s a possibility that they’re exploring. It may not be the thing that you move into, but it has the advantage of getting you going. If it’s not it, it makes you understand why not. If it’s promising and it allows you to explore more, it gets you in touch with other people who are also in the process of making changes, and that’s always helpful because you don’t want to be alone in your head, thinking, “I’m the only one who’s taking forever, who’s unsure about what to do.”

It creates a sense of kinship with other people who are going through a journey as well, and it creates a context in which you have to explain yourself all the time, which is also helpful because the more you have to explain yourself, the clearer you become about what you’re trying to do and why. So, any action, basically, is helpful. If you know, follow your nose. If you don’t, take any action and get started on a path.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Well, I’d love it if we could generate just a big list of experiments and approaches for getting a taste of things. And so, volunteering, taking a course, maybe going to events and meeting the people at the events. I guess there’s even more passive stuff in the earliest of steps, like, “Well, let’s listen to a podcast about artificial intelligence…” if that’s the thing you think you’re into, “…and let’s start having some conversations with people who are there.” Like, “Hey, I read your thing. I listened to your episode,” and sort of step-by-step we get a taste for what’s going on.

What are some of your other favorite experiments or approaches you found really yield a boatload of insight for effort that you put into it?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, you’ve got the basics of the list there – take a course, volunteer, start up a business on the side, do advisory, get on a board, get class, give a class, all those things, all of those things. And one side is what you do, the activity. The other side is the new networks that gets you into. And the two of those things together help you understand, “Do I want to take the next step or do I not?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that and it’s much less intimidating in terms of all at once, one giant leap, yes or no, launch, don’t launch versus, “Huh, okay. That was cool. How about another step?” I suppose at some points there are big old milestones, like, “No, for real. Like, I got to decide if I’ve got to pursue a doctorate in order to do the science thingy that I think sounds cool, or I’m not.” So, I’m curious, are there any particular questions, either for the internal reflection or for your new network, that you think are supremely useful and insightful as you’re navigating your experiments?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, there’s basically two questions you’re asking yourself, “Is this an attractive option? Yes. No.” “Is this feasible in terms of my need to make a living in the world? Yes. No.” And you are kind of inching your way through those questions, “Is it attractive? Is it feasible?” And feasible is not just only in terms of the money. It’s also in terms of, “Will I be able to develop the skill set necessary to truly plant a foot in that world?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, the consultant in me is creating a two-by-two matrix in my mind’s eye. I can’t help myself. Let’s hear some examples of things that might be in each of those quadrants. And I guess it’ll be super individually specific, like, what’s attractive to one person is totally repulsive to another. But I guess in terms of not feasible, like, I could probably not be an Olympic gymnast now as a 40-year-old man who has not trained in that domain. But I guess I’m such a big dreamer, I think almost anything is possible.

So, maybe you could ground us. You be the dream-killer for a moment, what are some areas where you’ve had to gently encourage folks, like, “You know what, maybe back off or rethink that a little bit. That’s probably highly risky and not quite feasible in its current incarnation”?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, that doesn’t really happen. Nobody does to themselves, “At age 45, I want to be an astronaut or I want to be a rocket scientist.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, in a way, I’m a little sad.

Herminia Ibarra
Although, you do have people. You do have people. This is not somebody that I studied but I ran across, somebody told me a story recently of somebody, you know how they tell people, “What did you want to do when you were a kid?” and this person had always wanted to be an astronaut, and he ended up, I don’t know, either training astronauts or coaching astronauts, but kind of found his way into the aerospace industry via some things that he had done before and some things he was able to acquire as skills, and found himself delighted to be in that kind of atmosphere.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, what I love about that is you may have a desire to be an astronaut, and I guess the right answer is not to dismiss that, “That’s ridiculous. Let’s throw that away,” but rather to dig a little deeper, it’s like, “Well, what is it about being astronaut that seems cool?” It’s like, “I like the idea of being in a rocket going superfast.” Like, okay, maybe you can just start flying small planes as a hobby or something, and you can scratch that itch.”

Or, maybe it’s, “Space is so fascinating.” “Well, there’s many space-adjacent sorts of opportunities that you can go for.” Or, “I always admire the astronauts themselves, their stories and their heroism and their bravery.” It’s like, “Oh, well, then you could train astronauts and get close to them even if you’re not going out into outer space.” So, I think that’s pretty cool that those initial seeds can grow in some handy directions.

Herminia Ibarra
Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m curious on the networking side of things, do you have any pro tips on how you recommend reaching out, asking for help or guidance or input or conversations as you’re navigating these experiments?

Herminia Ibarra
So, the first is start right away. A lot of people don’t start because they say to themselves, “I don’t know what I want. I’m going to sound confused so I’m going to kind of blow a good contact and I’m not going to make a good impression.” However, if you don’t start, you’re not going to figure it out. And so, by this point, everybody is familiar with the informational interview and kind of the exploratory coffee.

Maybe reach out to people who are not the CEO of the company you’d like to work for until you’ve had a little bit of practice. But the most important thing is to start right away and to contact a lot of people. Most people don’t realize how many conversations it takes, how many coffees, how many times reaching out on LinkedIn.

Just recently, I did a webinar online for people who are interested in career change, and we asked them, we did a survey ahead of time, and we asked them, “How confident are you in your ability to make this change, to make a change successfully?” And we also asked them about their networks, we asked them how many conversations they’ve had already about career change, and it varied wildly from hundreds of them, or hundred something, to very few. And there was a very strong correlation.

The more people you talk to, the more confident you felt about the possibility because, as you talk to people, first of all, you find out everybody has got a story about career change. Lots of people do. It’s very reassuring to hear that other people with a similar background as you ended up doing something very different, and successfully so, and happily so. And they’ll encourage you, and you’ll get more ideas about what to do, let alone than actually find leads and referrals for specific positions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Herminia Ibarra
So, start, reach out, be honest. At first, you might be saying, “I’m exploring the possibility of a change. I’m looking into different options. I’m trying to kind of brainstorm some possibilities.” Afterwards, you might say, “I’m really interested in this sector and I’m trying to figure out which way to position myself in or which way to go in it.” After that, “I’m trying to get a foot in this door.” It’s a progression.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. I like those questions. Any particularly magical turns of phrases that you’re fond of?

Herminia Ibarra
No, there’s no magic. Yeah, the magic is, “I’d like your help. I’d like your input. I’d like to hear your story.” It’s very simple things.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose what I found, and what I really like about your answer, “No, there’s no magic,” is that I have witnessed before, I think there’s one guy in particular, he reached out to me, wants some career advice, and he was a total stranger. I think we were in the same LinkedIn Group, so about the weakest of connections that there can exists, so I had no idea who this person was but, what the heck, I chat with them.

 

And then, I asked him out of curiosity, “Hey, so you just kind of found me out of the blue and in the cold on LinkedIn, like have you been reaching out to other people? And how often do people say yes?” And, to my delight, he had a very detailed notebook of everybody he reached out to, and the results of those reach-outs, and I believe the number was something like 28% of total strangers were willing to have a chat with him. And I thought that was cool.

And his message wasn’t magical. It was short. It was direct. It was clear. He made it easy for me, it’s like, “Hey, I’d love to come get coffee with you wherever it’s convenient, perhaps A, B, C times to hear more about this and that.” And I was like, “Okay, sure.” And I thought that was pretty encouraging.

Herminia Ibarra
That’s it. That’s it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. All right. Well, Herminia, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, on that note about the weakest of ties, we know that those are the ones that are the most helpful, in fact, because friends and family and close colleagues, they have the same information you do. And when it comes to career change, they’re more apt to worry that you’re going to do something foolish. Whereas, perfect strangers might think that your kookiest plans are actually wonderful.

And LinkedIn studied this directly because there’s this famous theory about the strength of weak ties, how we tend to get our next job through people we don’t know so well or don’t see that often. And there was an experiment with LinkedIn in which they manipulated what people you were fed as people you might know, and in some cases, they gave you closer connections, and in another case, more distant. And the more distance were indeed the ones that were the most productive for figuring out a next job.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. Well, now could you share with us a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, a favorite study is the original strength of weak ties research in which researchers studied how people found jobs and what were the contacts that led them to leads that became their next jobs. And it was all personal contacts by and large. This was before LinkedIn, which is not quite can be personal but also a bit institutionalized. But it was mostly personal contacts that led people to their next job, but the surprising thing was that it was not close colleagues. It was distant acquaintances.

And the reason was not people always think, “It’s because your close colleagues know your fatal flaws.” That’s not it. The reason was that they have the same information you do because they circulate in the same circles and the same waters. Whereas, more distant acquaintances are more likely to be working somewhere else and to be seeing different things, and, therefore, are more likely to suggest something novel to you.

But it’s a wonderful study because it’s counterintuitive, and I see this over and over again. People get started, trying to make a career change, and they turn to friends and family because it’s more reassuring, because they don’t want everybody to know, but it is really these weak ties, these more distant acquaintances that really make a difference. People we used to work with, for example, are huge in terms of generating leads for next possible things to do.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And could you share a favorite book?

Herminia Ibarra
A favorite book. I’m just looking at my bookshelf. I’ve always loved the old classic, William Bridges’ Transitions, about beginnings. No, he goes, endings, middles, and beginnings about the phases of transition and why it’s so difficult. That’s a favorite.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use that helps you be awesome at your job?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, now I use ChatGPT for everything, not to write anything for me but for some basic research and ideas.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, now I’ve been playing with it myself. Tell me, what are some of your favorite use cases where you think this thing really shines?

Herminia Ibarra

Well, I had, for example, a bunch of open-ended answers to a survey. It was kind of a long number. And I asked it to code them for me into categories, and then do counts of different categories. So, that’s kind of like a research assistant. It’s very good at outlining things. I’d never taken care of my Wikipedia entry. If somebody had written it, it was not accurate. And so, I asked it to write it for me, and it outlined it very well. It did hallucinate articles I had never written but that’s okay. I knew which ones to put in but it was perfect.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s flattering. The robot assumed that you must’ve written that because of your notoriety and wit and insight. So, with the coding of results, that’s intriguing. Did you just straight up drag and drop a spreadsheet file into it? Or, how did that work in terms of tactical execution?

Herminia Ibarra
When I first did it, yeah, I just entered all the…I don’t remember now if it was in the spreadsheet. Then my research assistant took over, and she did use it with Excel, but I think I just dropped everything in. And it got a little bit overwhelmed, and so we had to work it in some batches but, yeah, it did a pretty good job. And then we kind of negotiated on the categories a bit. You have to work with it but it did a great job.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And could you share a favorite habit, something you do that supports you in being awesome at your job?

Herminia Ibarra
No, this is actually a real thing. My habit is to work from home as long as possible in the morning, which is when my brain is at its best. And so, I try to do any kind of writing or course development that I need to get done at that time, and then go into the office later, or go into the other things later.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular you share that really seems to connect and resonate with people and they quote it back to you often?

Herminia Ibarra

It’s this idea that we tend to know what we don’t want but we don’t know what we want instead, but the only way that we figure it out is by going out and exploring as opposed to waiting until we figure it out in our head. That resonates with people. The other thing that resonates a lot is that when people read Working Identity, one of the things they always come back to me on is, “Oh, my gosh, I’m not the only one. It gave me relief I’m not the only one that was so confused or nonlinear.”

And the nugget is that no matter how clear you are in your head about what you want next, career transitions always take longer and are messier than anyone ever imagined, and that’s just part of the process.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Herminia Ibarra
HerminiaIbarra.com, Herminia Ibarra at LinkedIn, and Herminia Ibarra at X.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, the funny thing is that my subject is not so much about being awesome at your job but being awesome at extricating yourself from that job. But I guess what I would say is if it’s not been awesome for some time, it is really a good moment to start dabbling on the side with other ideas and possibilities.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Herminia, thank you. This has been a lot of fun.

Herminia Ibarra
Thanks so much, Pete. I really enjoyed it.

Dec 04
0

920: A Masterclass in Health Insurance Benefits with Dr. Noor Ali

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Dr. Noor Ali simplifies the beast of United States health insurance—and shares insider tips for making the most out of yours.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to evaluate the biggest non-salary piece of your compensation
  2. Why you shouldn’t limit yourself to your company’s health insurance
  3. What most people overlook when it comes to insurance

About Dr. Noor

Dr. Noor is a Bangladeshi-American medical doctor turned health insurance expert from NYC. She currently runs her own health insurance consulting practice out of Tampa, Florida offering healthcare insurance strategy to female founders all over the nation. Dr. Noor is also the founder of Think Like A Woman, a platform designed to amplify the aspirations and ambitions of female founders, worldwide. She hosts a highly curated roundtable business networking brunch called The Empresaria Brunch Experience. When she is not working on  managing her current businesses or building her next retail venture, you can find her curled up in bed with a good fiction book.

Resources Mentioned

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Dr. Noor Ali Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Noor, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Dr. Noor Ali
Pete, thank you so much for having me. I’m a huge fan of the show, a huge fan of the Golden Nuggets, so this is a huge opportunity and privilege for me. Thanks.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, I’m a huge fan of you and all the money you’ve saved me on health insurance premiums since we’ve discovered you about a year or two ago. So, why don’t we get oriented? So, you are Dr. Noor Ali, so you’re a doctor but you’re not practicing medicine, and instead you’re doing health insurance. What’s the story here?

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct. Correct. This gets a lot of people. I am. I’m a medical doctor, I trained in my home country in Bangladesh. My background is internal medicine and general surgery. And if you know anything about this tiny little country of Bangladesh, it’s very, very low resource. We’ve got a whole lot of people and not a whole lot of medical practitioners. So, I’m actually trained to treat any human from head to toe, so I can do anything from a C-section, to a delivery, to a general surgery case, to a heart attack, to a stroke.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, but you’re not doing that now.

Dr. Noor Ali
I’m not doing that now.

Pete Mockaitis
Maybe on an airplane if there’s an emergency, you’ll be the person.

Dr. Noor Ali
Right. I’ve been doing health insurance for about five years now, Pete. Now, the process for foreign physicians like myself, if you’re familiar, is we don’t have to go through medical school again when we come back to the States. We have to pass a series of licensing exams called the USMLE. Now, the first of those series of exams is, step one, the content is basic sciences. And at that point in my career, I was a superstar, rock star surgeon and there was a huge disconnect for me.

So, I studied for about two years and I missed it. I failed the test by one question which was three points at the time, and it really put a damper in my career. I went into this deep kind of depression, I lost all sense of professional identity, and I didn’t really know what to do with myself, and I just needed a win at that time.

So, on paper, I just looked like a high school graduate, Pete, because I never went to undergrad. I went straight to medical school, this accelerated medical program from high school, so I was struggling to find jobs. And the only opportunity I got was a sales role at this health insurance company and I just took it because I just needed a win in my life. So, that was the connection between going from a clinical career to insurance, but I’ve been doing it for five years, and I’ve really made a career for myself.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’ll tell you, it was my producers who found you originally because I was thinking, “I want to talk to an expert on health insurance, both for the show and for me. So, please find this person,” and you won. Like, you are a health insurance expert who is also a doctor. And it’s funny because those often don’t go together because I’ve had many conversations with doctors, “So, like, what’s the insurance going to do with this? Or how much is this going to cost?” Like, “Boy, I don’t know that. That’s a tricky one.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, they don’t teach you that in medical school, right? They don’t teach you the insurance part.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you’ve got both, and so it’s funny. Health insurance is confusing even the doctors. And I remember, I even took a course in college, it was David Sinow, and it was called Personal Wealth Management and it was a very popular course. It’s about measuring your money for finance majors, like the personal side of things. And we talked a little bit about health insurance stuff, and it was a little tricky then.

But then, in practice, I remember I was in a nonprofit board meeting, and we were just taking the steps, like, “Okay, let’s really get health insurance locked in for the employees.” And so, someone did the research and we had these options. And it was so funny because, here we are these board members, who have some pretty cool accomplishments in the world of finance and leadership and running things, and all of us are just like, “Oh, boy, I don’t know. I don’t know,” and it was striking.

So, what’s going on here, Noor? Are we just dumb or what’s going on? Is it super complicated for everybody?

Dr. Noor Ali
It is. It is because there are so many players in this game, Pete. If we zoom out a little bit and if we think like, “Well, why is it so darn complicated? And how come other countries have it together and we don’t?” We’ve got a capitalist economy, we’ve got big players in insurance, we’ve got smaller groups, we’ve got employers, and then we’ve got private companies just kind of like making up their own rules in everything.

And then in 2008, we have an administration that says, “Well, let’s try to clean it all up. We’re going to do the Affordable Care Act, and we’re going to try to house everything under one federal platform,” but that still doesn’t eliminate the private sector and all of these key players. So, because there are so many people in this mix, it makes it really complicated because you don’t know where to start, and you don’t know where to go.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s great. It’s not just me and my fellow board members. It’s tricky for everyone, including doctors, and it is just because that’s the system that we have with all the different players. So, here we are, talking from a US context. Tell me, when it comes to US healthcare and health insurance, is there any country that’s awesome on every dimension?

I’ve heard that the US flourishes when if something really gnarly happens to you, we’ve got a whole lot of high-tech great stuff to give you a good outcome with that. So, in that dimension, the US is great on healthcare. But on many other dimensions, we’re not so great. How do we stack up and how do you think about that?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, great question, and it always depends on who you’re asking and who you’re having the conversation with. I’ve lived and worked in Australia, I visited the UK, Canada, I have this recurring conversation, and people ask me all the time, “Well, what is it with the US versus other countries? And, exactly, how do we stack up?” And it’s always in any situation like this, especially when it comes to healthcare, there’s going to be two sides of the coin, and whoever you’re asking, their perspective is going to be different.

So, if we use the example of the Affordable Care Act, I’m going to refer back to this again because that’s what is popularly known. Well, that’s where you go to get your health insurance, HealthCare.gov. Well, it’s not designed for everyone. If you put the population of America on a graph and you divide it into four quadrants, the population that’s winning with the Affordable Care Act is the lower income and chronically ill. If you’re higher income or generally healthy, you’re not getting a good deal here.

So, similarly in other countries, whatever system that they have or they implement, it’s going to be great for one population and it’s going to alienate another. So, the short answer, Pete, is there’s no magical solution, there’s no one country where 100% of the population is happy, and I don’t think that’s ever going to happen.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that was my next question, and you answered that lovely. I’ve heard some people say, “Oh, my gosh, Obamacare,” the name also used for the Affordable Care Act, ACA, they say, “Oh, my gosh, this is awesome. I’m saving so much.” And then other people say, “This is terrible. My last plan did so much more and I paid less.”

And so, there are some strong feelings on both ways, but I think you summarized it rather well. It’s like if you’re lower income and/or chronically ill, you’re better off now that the Affordable Care Act exists. And if you’re on the other side of that coin, you are personally worse off but maybe you feel good about how you’re contributing to the health of others, or maybe you don’t.

Dr. Noor Ali
That’s exactly right, Pete. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, thank you, that’s that story. Now, I want to get into one of the main reasons I wanted to have this conversation because this topic is different than a lot of our other episodes. I’ve heard people say, many times, “Oh, boy, I’d love to start my own business or do my own thing, go out on my own, but, oh, I’m with this company and they’ve got great health insurance. I really need the health insurance. I’ve got a family of four,” or maybe even someone with a chronic condition within that.

“And so, I guess I gotta stay put.” To what extent is that assertion accurate versus poppycock versus something in the middle?

Dr. Noor Ali
I’m going to lean more towards the poppycock for that situation because that’s absolutely not true. Now, historically, traditionally, employers were the best source to get health insurance because the larger your corporation is, the risk can be diluted more, the actuarial risk can be taken down, and the company can offer greater benefits to their employees. In addition, if the corporation is doing well, they can sponsor more towards your premium.

So, your out of pocket, what is coming out of your paycheck looks less and less. So, I am not at all denying that you can get excellent healthcare from your employer in a large corporation. However, that is not the only place to get health insurance. There is an entire whole other world out there, outside of your employer, where you can purchase your own health insurance. And in this specific situation that you stated, Pete. I want to pick that apart a little bit.

You mentioned a family of four where one person has different needs than the other, and that’s something that I want to hone in on, it’s something that I do for some of my services is to really analyze that. What is the risk and the needs for each of the person in their family if only one person out of a family of four has a greater need? The entire family does not need to be on a policy.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, actually, Noor, that was the huge insight that you gave me that’s resulted in my own personal savings. Thank you again for that. Because you said, “Oh, okay, so you think your wife might get pregnant again. Okay, well, then some plans are really great for that but they’re expensive all the time versus you and the other kids could be on this less expensive plan, and then she’d be on a separate.” I was like, “Oh, wow, wait a minute. One family, two different plans.”

Dr. Noor Ali
“What?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it was funny. My brain was like, “Wait. We’re still a family, right?”

Dr. Noor Ali
Right, “I don’t have to divorce my wife for this, do I?”

Pete Mockaitis
“We could still file our taxes jointly, right?” I was like, “Oh, of course. Of course.” I just never thought of it that way. And so, you opened my eyes and some savings, so we’ll talk about that. That’s cool. So, then maybe I know there are so many different kinds of plans, and things change. And this may be out of date a few months, but just for a snapshot.

Okay, here we are, December 2023, let’s say we don’t even know the value our employers are giving us or what we’d have to really shoulder if we went out on our own. Can you give us a taste for what does it cost, say, an individual who’s fairly healthy, let’s say 40 years old, versus an individual who’s not so healthy, 40 years old? We’ll do two-by-two. An individual, a family of four, healthy, unhealthy, very roughly speaking, what might we expect in the range of monthly premiums if we’re shouldering it all on our own for pretty good health insurance?

Dr. Noor Ali
Okay. Well, considering that there’s no subsidy here, so no ACA government plan subsidy, a full premium price plan for a healthy 40-year-old man can range anywhere from 350 to 450 a month. We should land somewhere right in the middle, and say roughly $400 a month.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, that sounds low. Are these ACA, Affordable Care Act plans, HealthCare.gov?

Dr. Noor Ali
It could be. So, it depends on what market we’re shopping. So, if we zoom out a little bit and back up the starting point when researching a plan for yourself is, “What market do I shop in? The public healthcare marketplace, which is the ACA Obamacare, or the private healthcare marketplace?” So, the public healthcare marketplace is entirely income-dependent.

So, that same healthy 40-year-old man, if he makes anywhere between $20,000 to $55,000 a year, he can qualify for a sliding scale subsidy from the government where they’ll pay a portion of his premiums. If he does not qualify for that subsidy and exceeds that subsidy-qualifying threshold, then his premiums can look anywhere from 350 plus.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Now, let’s get a taste for an unhealthy person, if someone says, “Hey, I’ve got some stuff that I’ve got to deal with ongoing medications, condition.”

Dr. Noor Ali
So, the sad news is no insurance company wants to take on this unhealthy person with all of this stuff because insurance, even though they’re dealing in the business of risk, they don’t want to take on that risk. They just want to take your monthly premiums and want you to never use your insurance again. So, the best market to shop for someone who has major preexisting conditions is going to be Obamacare, ACA, public healthcare marketplace because this is a guaranteed issue platform. They’re not going to ask you about those preexisting conditions.

However, I should note that there are degrees of risks and preexisting conditions. The example that I like to use is an asthmatic. If you’ve got asthma and you’ve got a little inhaler that you have to use here and there, maybe an Albuterol once a day, versus that same 40-year-old man with asthma who is a smoker, overweight, has to go to the emergency room to get nebulized every time he has an asthma attack are two completely different risk profiles. So, it’s worth assessing that risk profile to see, “Hey, is my preexisting condition really as bad as I think it is? Can I still get a plan that’s less and shop for an insurance company that’ll take me, insuring me for less?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, in that very unhealthy situation, if they are going on HealthCare.gov, are they still in that 350 to 450 range because…”Hey…”?

Dr. Noor Ali
It depends on the income. It depends on the income. So, if the income is 20,000 or less, you can qualify for Medicaid, which is free healthcare in your state. Anything between 20,000 to 55,000 roughly, you can get a sliding scale subsidy, and your plan can be anywhere from zero dollars up to 350 plus, depending on that subsidy in tax credit.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And women, do they pay more because of pregnancy and these sorts of issues?

Dr. Noor Ali
Women pay more just because they’re a higher-cost to insure. They have a whole set of organs that cost a lot to maintain. So, in general, a 40-year-old woman is going to cost more to insure than a 40-year-old man.

Pete Mockaitis
And we were saying 350 to 450. What is it for a woman?

Dr. Noor Ali
Similar range but maybe a little higher, depending on the deductibles and max out of pockets could be higher. So, I would still say maybe these plans for a woman would be starting in the high 300s or 400s.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if we have a family of four, would I just multiply that number by about four?

Dr. Noor Ali
Ish. So, children cost less and there are so many factors here. I hate that I’m even giving numbers because if someone hears this and they find there are some inconsistencies, I don’t want to be attacked here because children are going to cost less to insure but there are so many variables that go into finding this, calculating this monthly premium – zip code, age, risk factors, where you live, the cost of living there, the medications that you take, if we’re calculating monthly premiums. But children usually cost anywhere from $75 to $200 monthly premium, depending on age and where they live.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so this is informative. So, just to make things simple, I‘m just going to say 500 times three-ish, so you might call $1500-ish of premium per month times 12 months, we might be talking about $18,000-ish of a family’s budget, which is potentially more than the rent and/or the groceries for people if they’re on their own.

So, I think, to the extent of, if that statement, “I can’t leave my job. I’ve got to have the health insurance,” real versus poppycock, I think the answer is, well, it may very well be $20,000-ish a year of an issue if the employer is paying it all versus not. So, that’s how I spin my perspective, it’s like, “Well, hey, if you can clear $20,000 extra doing your own thing, then you might be fine. You just got to take that factor into account is that health insurance provided by an employer is a real benefit of substantial economic value but it need not handcuff us.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Right. Correct, Pete. And you mentioned that the employer is paying all of it. There’s hardly ever a situation where the employer pays all of it. They’re paying 50-70% of it perhaps, but the rest is coming out of your paycheck so often people don’t pay attention to it. You are paying for it. You just don’t notice it as much.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. So, now what’s open enrollment? We hear a lot about it around this time of year. And what’s the deal?

Dr. Noor Ali
Open enrollment is the time of the year where insurance companies open up their arms and say, “Come sign up, enroll into our plans for the next year, you can get health insurance now.” It’s significant because it’s a sensitive window. You can only sign up for health insurance on the public healthcare marketplace typically November and December of every year for coverage for the following plan year.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, what’s that about, Noor? Why can’t we just buy something whenever we want to buy them?

Dr. Noor Ali
Because, we’re going to go back to the concept of risk, insurance needs to calculate how much risk they’re taking on for 2024, do that actuarial analyses, and run their numbers and reporting. So, people are signing up all year long, and they’re not doing any type of preexisting clause. They’re taking on random levels of risks at random levels of the year, and an insurance company cannot run its business taking on that risk.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Duly noted. So, then, if, let’s say if we got fired, or we left our job in the middle of the year, are we just out of luck, we’re just going to go uninsured until November-December?

Dr. Noor Ali
No, that would be a special qualifying life event. So, there are a series of circumstances, we’re in the middle of the year, if you just decide to move, you get married, or you just lose your job, or get terminated and have no longer have access to benefits, those would qualify you to be able to sign up for a plan on the public healthcare marketplace using the special enrollment period. I do have to point out though, on the private side, there are no special enrollment periods. You can sign up all year round.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, I’m also curious to the notion of public versus private, and employer-sponsored versus individual. I’ve had the experience, I remember in Chicago, when we made the shift from my wife’s health insurance to, “Okay, I’m getting all the health insurance,” there were some plans that I just could not access if I was not associated with an employer, which I thought was wild, it’s like, “I am willing and ready to pay outrageous amounts for my health insurance premiums. I’ve already steeled myself for that reality.”

And then it’s just like, “Oh, no, you just can’t have that plan. That has all the really cool doctors, or whatever.” And I thought that was so weird. What’s the deal with that?

Dr. Noor Ali
Can you tell me a little bit more about that though before I answer?

Pete Mockaitis
I think it was something like a Blue Cross Blue Shield, Gold or Platinum Choice, Select. I don’t know.

Dr. Noor Ali
Who said you couldn’t have it though? Was it an employer, a group, or what?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there was one plan that my wife had, and it was pretty sweet in terms of it had vast numbers of physicians and network and all that. And then, as I looked at HealthCare.gov, it was just like, “No, that’s not on the menu.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, so that’s going to be public versus private markets. So, the public healthcare marketplace, Obamacare, typically doesn’t have PPO networks, which is going to be those higher-quality plans that you’re talking about. You can only get those when you are part of a big employer, a group plan, or you go on the individual market and you basically get a private insurance plan. So, that’s one of the biggest detriments of plans on the public healthcare marketplace, is they don’t have PPO options in most states.

Pete Mockaitis
Not one, not a PPO to be had in most states on HealthCare.gov?

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
And for those who are not familiar, what do these letters PPO mean?

Dr. Noor Ali
PPO stands for Preferred Provider Organization. It’s pretty much like it sounds. It’s a higher-quality access for the benefits that you have. So, Pete, you can have the most awesome health insurance plan in the world, cost zero dollars, free, co-pays, all that stuff, covers you head to toe, but if you can only see the doctor that’s 30 miles away and has availability six months later, what good use is that plan?

So, the network of access to providers, that’s what the letters PPO, HMO, EPO stands for, is where and how you can use your benefits of your health insurance policy. And you always want to choose a PPO because that’s a higher quality.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, PPO is the best. Is HMO the worst?

Dr. Noor Ali
You could say that.

Pete Mockaitis
And what does EPO stand for? What’s that do?

Dr. Noor Ali
Something just in the middle, Exclusive Provider Organization. It’s a mix of HMO and PPO where you can see the doctors you like to, but again it’s a much limited and smaller network.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how can I know the network I can access in advance of getting a plan?

Dr. Noor Ali
Well, when you look at the plan, you’ll know what network it’s on, but I think that one of the advices that I like to give that’s relevant in the situation is it’s always better to stay in network with the plan instead of finding a plan around the doctor that you love. Does that make sense? Because just to fit a plan around a provider, you might get really screwed in every other benefit, but if you have a plan that works in terms of benefits for you, then going along with the network and benefits of that plan is going to be more beneficial.

But when you’re exploring and researching plans, you’re always going to know what network that is, whether that’s HMO, EPO, or PPO.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that’s sort of the tough pill that I guess we just have to swallow, is that if you’re fond of three distinct doctors in different specialties for…it’s like, “Oh, I want to get a plan that covers all of those.” Well, the odds are not in your favor, unfortunately, to pull that off. Although, in the case of some private plans for either individuals or corporations, you might have better luck there in terms of, “This is a premium offer that happens to include your three favorite specialists in different domains.”

Dr. Noor Ali
Precisely.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s good to know. So, Noor, if we’re young and healthy, do we still need health insurance or is that a waste of money?

Dr. Noor Ali
Am I allowed to laugh and scoff in response to that?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Dr. Noor Ali
Okay, I’m laughing and I’m scoffing but I’m trying to keep it together. Yes. Yes, Pete, you absolutely do need health insurance, and the best time to get it is when you are young and healthy because that’s when you are the lowest risk, the most desirable to health insurance companies, and they’re willing to insure you for a lot less cost, and willing to give you a lot more benefits. So, that is the best time to get yourself some good insurance.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and I know someone who is young and healthy, and then she got cancer, and it was so sad and startling and unexpected, and so then she had a heap of medical bills. And so then, they were doing some benefits and some fundraisers and some donations. And someone who was curious and courageous enough to pose the question, “So, did she not have health insurance? Or how do these bills kind of end up mounting so high?”

And then the person said in reply, “Of course, she didn’t have health insurance. She’s young and healthy. Why would she spend money on health insurance?” And so, I like that you’re presenting this, the opposite point of view strongly because that’s how I think about health insurance. It’s like, “Would you like to not go bankrupt if something terrible happens to your health? If the answer is yes, and you live in the United States, having health insurance is, unfortunately, a necessary thing that you need to enjoy that privilege.” That’s where we are.

Dr. Noor Ali
Exactly. Yup, that’s exactly it. You’re right.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if we should all have it, tell us what are some of the clever ways we might go about saving on health insurance?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, great question. I want to offer a little bit of insight on the young and healthy thing because this is a fallacy that I see a lot in the young and healthy population is, first of all, they think they don’t need health insurance. So, that’s mistake number one. You absolutely do. But the second thing that I notice is they go for the plan with the lowest premium and the highest deductible because that just makes sense in their head, it’s like, “Well, I hardly ever use it to go to the doctor and use it, why would I pay more in premiums?” whatever.

So, in that situation, what’s happening is, let’s say you have health insurance for two years, and, finally, something happens and you need to use your health insurance plan. You have a $200-a-month premium and you have a $10,000 deductible. That’s a typical low-premium, high-deductible plan ratio. So, for two years, you paid your insurance company $200 a month, and when you finally need health insurance because you got into a car accident or got diagnosed with cancer, you are going to have to pay the first $10,000 of bills before your insurance company is going to step in and pay anything.

So, you just ensured in that situation that you are paying, not your insurance company. So, that’s completely like the opposite psychology that you should be using as a young, healthy, low-risk person when selecting your health insurance plan. The better strategy, in my opinion, is, “What is the lowest deductible that I can afford with a comfortable premium?” And that may be 250-300, just a little bit more per month but if and when you need to use your health insurance benefits, you want to make sure that you are spending less out of pocket and your insurance is stepping in with those bigger bills.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s talk about some of these words. This is like everything you want to know about health insurance but were afraid to ask. Premium, deductible, co-insurance, what do these words mean?

Dr. Noor Ali
Premium is the amount of money that you have to pay per month just for having your policy. Whether you use it, you never use it, you have to pay the premium. If you work for a big corporation, that’s typically divided up into your bi-weekly paychecks, comes out of the paycheck, but it’s traditionally calculated as a monthly premium.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then what is a deductible?

Dr. Noor Ali
A deductible is the amount of money that you have to pay in addition to the premium before the insurance will start paying out on your benefits. Now, typically, most insurance plans only offer preventive care before the deductible. Most insurance out plans don’t offer a whole lot.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then what is a co-insurance percentage?

Dr. Noor Ali
Co-insurance is, after you meet that deductible, is the percentage of bills, medical expenses your insurance company will pay.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if it’s an 80%, then I’ll pay through my deductible, and then I will still be on the hook for 20% of what happens above and beyond that.

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct, until you reach your max out of pocket.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, max out of pocket, is that just what it sounds like, it’s like, “I will not part with any more money than this in a year?”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, it’s a value that states that once you pay your insurance company this amount, they’re obligated to cover the rest of the bills.

Pete Mockaitis
And is that in addition to on top of the premiums?

Dr. Noor Ali
It’s always on top of the premiums, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Very cool. What is a co-pay?

Dr. Noor Ali
A co-pay is very similar to the co-insurance. It’s either/or. Your plan can either have a co-pay or a co-insurance. And a co-pay is a fixed dollar amount that you pay for medical services before the service. So, that can be a $20 co-pay to see a doctor or specialist that you would pay that before you even see the doctor.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And what’s funny is I’ve learned from experience that co-pays are actually good. Like, I want to have $50 co-pay to see a specialist as opposed to not having one because then the neurologist might be like, “Yo, that’s actually $450 to talk with me for half an hour.” It’s like, “Oh, oops, I’d rather have a $50 co-pay.” So, co-pays are a good thing that we want to see across a broad array of services. Is that accurate?

Dr. Noor Ali
I would say, in this economy, having a fixed co-pay is going to be much better than a co-insurance percentage because of the example that you just stated. You want a fixed dollar amount rather than a percentage of a big bill.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. There you go. And then the network tells me who they are willing to give money to. And so, if I go out of network then the plan might specify, “Well, hey, you have no benefits or fewer benefits.” Is that accurate?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, less benefits.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we want in-network for good savings, and so we should research in advance who is in the network. And sometimes that’s harder than you think to determine because it’s like, “Oh, yeah, we take UnitedHealthcare.” But UnitedHealthcare has many, many plans underneath this brand name, this company. So, how do you recommend we do great research on getting clear answers on, “No, for real, who’s in the network, who’s not in the network?”

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah. Well, every insurance plan will have their network directory, but, honestly, those are updated every 30 days. Sometimes they’re not accurately updated. So, the best and fastest way is to call up your doctor that you like, your provider, your hospital, your urgent care, and say, “Hey, do you guys take this plan? Are you in network?” Just ask the question.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And you, that’s one of the services you and your team provide. You do a little bit of the groundwork, a little bit of the hustle, on behalf of your clients, right?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes. Yes, I do. So, if you are a client of mine, and you just want to know, “Hey, where can I go?” I’ll happily do that for you.

Pete Mockaitis
And, honestly, that is just so huge, thank you, because this stuff is so complicated it makes me groan. So, this is part of why it took so long for us to get onto a microphone together is that you do some of that work, and that is awesome, and at no cost. And I’m trying not to be too much of an advertisement for you, but I can’t resist. I think you’re awesome. So, I don’t have to pay you any extra for that. How on earth is this financially workable for you, to do all this legwork, and be paid nothing to do it, to have it done?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, that’s a great question. Well, Pete, to be honest, I did raise my price just a little bit since we worked together. Not a whole lot, but, yeah, it’s one of the concierge services that I provide. So, for all of my clients, things like claims, customer service, I’m happy to do that for the life of the policy just because I know how onerous it can be for you, and how easy and convenient it is for me. It’s not a big deal to me at all. The way I get compensated is through the insurance company that I end up connecting you with. They pay me a portion of your premiums for my commission. So, don’t worry, I’m taken care of.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right, yes. And so, in a way, it’s interesting. You’ll pay the same amount, whether we go to HealthCare.gov or you, right?

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
And yet, when we go through you, we get these extra benefits and services.

Dr. Noor Ali
Correct, yup.

Pete Mockaitis
And it’s just the healthcare provider, or the health insurance provider, who has a slightly shrunk profit margin, and I don’t mind.

Dr. Noor Ali
Me neither.

Pete Mockaitis
Sorry, health insurers. I think they’re doing okay and then giving a little slice to you, so that’s win-win-win. Okay. So, then tell us what are some of your favorite tips for saving on health insurance or healthcare expenditure overall?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah. Well, when it comes to finding and researching your plan, I think doing a needs assessment and risk evaluation is huge. That’s really where I start the journey whenever I speak to someone and they come to, asking, “Where do I even start?” So, some of the things that I’m going to be looking at is, “Where do you live? How much money are you expecting to make? And what is your medical or health risk profile?” And because of my strong medical background, it’s very easy for me to do that assessment quickly.

So, once I kind of profile your risk, then we decided, “Okay, public market, private market,” and there’s a type of a plan that I specialize in and I advocate for, and it works really beautifully for people in the healthier and wealthier bracket and on the private side, and it’s called a medically underwritten health insurance policy.

And this model is a pre-2008 or pre-Obamacare era where if you’re generally healthy and you’re earning too much to qualify for any government subsidies, we can underwrite you medically into a high-quality PPO health insurance plan that’s going to last you a lot longer and mirror the quality of a corporate package, or a major medical plan, at a fraction of the cost.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Okay. So, then we’ve got a great plan. Well, now tell us, how do we work it so that we don’t have unfortunate unexpected medical expenses along the way of living and using that plan?

Dr. Noor Ali
I love it. I love it. This is one of my favorite questions to answer because working your insurance plan, or milking it, is exactly what you should be doing. So, the first things to note is make sure you take advantage of all of the preventive care. Insurance companies don’t want to spend money. It’s more beneficial to them to keep you healthy. And how do we keep you healthy? Go to the doctor at least once a year, get your preventive, your annual wellness checkup so you’re not surprised with cancer because that’s what’s going to cost them and that’s all they care about.

So, take advantage of all the wellness and preventive benefits that your plan has at the very least. Then if you need to use your plan for services, start at the lowest tier, which is going to be virtual therapy and care. That is very accessible to you. You could do it from home. Now, they have trained physicians that they’re designed to send prescriptions to your nearest pharmacy without you leaving or doing anything, and they’re billing at a lot lower rates.

So, don’t go running to the emergency room for a cough and cold, stomach ache, or UTI, or yeast infection for women. Start with a virtual visit. That’s going to save you tons of money, it’s very convenient, and it’s going to help on the insurance backend.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And one of the other cool benefits of insurance—I can’t believe I said that sentence, cool benefit, okay, but I believe it—is that when you get medical bills, the explanation of benefit statements, it’ll show you, “Okay, hey, normally, we charge this much money for the services, but because you have this insurance, we’ve pre-negotiated a rate between them. And so, now it’s discounted and then your benefits cover this amount.”

So, it’s sort of like, “We knocked it down from, I don’t know, 500 bucks if you have nothing, to 320 because we pre-negotiated,” to, “Oh, hey, you have some insurance benefits,” so then you might be left with, like, 80 or something at the end. So, that’s kind of cool. But what can be tricky is, do they call it balance billing, is, like, “Oh, yeah, I am on the hook for a little bit after everything, and, oops, it’s more than I thought it would be.” How do I prevent that from happening?

Dr. Noor Ali
What I know about balance billing is that it’s difficult to predict unless you request estimates, or, “Hey, tell me exactly what you’re going to bill to insurance,” and that involves communications with the billing department before you seek services, which can be challenging in emergency situations, so I don’t have an actual answer on what to do after the fact.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, after the fact, good luck, but what you can do to prevent that is, ideally, you talk to them, you get the estimate. And I’ve heard that, even if you do get that surprise, you can ask and say, “Hey, I was really surprised to see this given that you’re in network, and I see the insurance paid this. So, what can you do for me?” And sometimes, they’ll just, “Oh, yeah, cut in half,” just like that. This happens.

Dr. Noor Ali
That’s a great strategy, actually, and negotiation is something that should never be left off of the table. Now, typically, negotiation is a strategy that’s used for cash-pay patients, people who don’t have insurance, they say, “Hey, I wasn’t expecting this much. What can you do?” And you always want to offer cash because facilities would always rather be paid upfront immediately than wait 30 to 90 days for a claim to process and for insurance to pay them. But now, we’ve seen it working also with insurance. If you can combine having insurance and still negotiating and re-pricing down your patient responsibility, you can do better than that. That’s amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And that also having an estimate in advance is huge for your negotiation, it’s like, “Hey, wait a minute. You said it was going to be this.” Like, “Oh, yeah, but we also had to do an ultrasound.” It’s like, “Well, why wasn’t that in the original estimate?” It’s like, “Well, you didn’t click the CPT code for an ultrasound estimate.” It’s like, “I didn’t know I was supposed to do that.” “Okay, fair enough. Just knock off 300 bucks.” Okay, just like that.

And when it comes to pricing, the way I think about options, or how do you think about it? When I’ve narrowed down to a few options or plans, I kind of like to play with the numbers, and say, “Okay, if I use no health insurance, how much cash should I be out over the course of a year? If I had a horrific accident, shattering dozens of bones, multiple surgeries, how much would I be out the year, so like the out of pocket plus the premiums and all that?”

And then what do I really expect to happen, like, “Okay, I’m going to go to the doctor a couple times and then maybe check in with this or that”? And then I look at those three total out-of-my-pocket cash amounts across the scenarios, and across the options, so it takes a while to make a call, “Okay, which plan is really my best option? Oh, that plan doesn’t exist next year, oops. Do it again.” Is this a good way to go? Or what’s a faster, easier, smarter way to assess the different plans and which one is optimal for me?

Dr. Noor Ali
That’s a fantastic exercise, Pete, and I wish that more people were more savvy like you to do that determination. The quicker faster dirtier way would just be to call me and I do that for you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, thank you.

Dr. Noor Ali
But, yeah, if you’ve got the skills, go the Pete-route, but if you don’t and you’re below average, then you can give me a call.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I would say, for all my savvy, I’ve still made mistakes and had unexpected medical expenses. Oops. So, learn in those lessons. Well, tell us, any other tips, tricks, things to do or not do when we’re buying or using our health insurance?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, really just take some time to get to know your policy. Some really high-level things you got to know about your health insurance is the monthly premium, how much are you paying just to have your plan, your deductible, your max out of pocket, and really cool special little things. That’s a very personal thing to find out. Like, if you love going to the chiropractor, really know your chiropractor benefits.

If you’ve got a kid who’s active in sports, what is your accidental policy like? How much is it going to cost if your kid is going to break a leg? So, know those common situations and scenarios that’s important to you. Understand what that out-of-pocket liability is going to be. And if you don’t know those answers, reach out to the person that helped you get your plan. They’ll have those answers. And just have a mental note on that.

I’d also say to do pretty frequent assessments and evaluations even if it’s not every year. If you have a major life change, that’s a good time to evaluate your health insurance policy, “Is it still working for me?” If you’re having a baby, that’s an important time. If you have a move or a life change, that’s an important time. But, also, if new products come out on the market pretty often, so understanding, “Am I paying the lowest that I could pay? Are there any new products out there that’s going to be a better fit for my needs?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. And, tell us, what about these so-called health-share programs, like Liberty HealthShare, Samaritan Ministries? How should I think about those?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yeah, that’s going to depend on a lot of things. So, I’ll tell you my opinion on health-sharing plans. So, the first thing to understand is they’re not true insurance products, so it’s not insurance at all. And the value of insurance is going to be that max out of pocket, that clearly defined number that says, “Hey, I gave you my insurance card.” There’s worst-case scenario, cancer, all bones shattered, “This is the most I’m going to pay. Don’t ask me any more questions. That’s a contract between you and your insurance company.”

So, that’s one thing that I find to be lacking in most health-sharing plans. And the second factor that impacts a lot of people is many health-sharing plans are based on faith which require some lifestyle commitments that not everybody is prepared to commit to. So, if it aligns with your lifestyle, and you’re okay with that model, that’s fine.

The third thing I’ll say about health-sharing plans is it’s very non-traditional, it’s a healthcare alternative, it’s certainly trending, but if you come from a corporate background where you’re used to a traditional healthcare model with fixed co-pays, where you don’t have to negotiate or do any type of self-advocacy or patient advocacy, you might not like that model because there’s a lot of standing up for yourself, paying first, and then negotiating and re-pricing down, and then hoping that your health-sharing plan kind of kicks in with the rest of the bills.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s what I’ve heard. I guess my personal take is I know friends who’ve had great experiences. Like, some, I think it was a premature child, and that’s a nightmare, and them saying, “Well, hey, we’re here for you in your time of need, sir. And this is your time of need,” and he just starts crying, like, feeling super supported by them, it’s like, “Wow, great. That’s really cool.”

And there are others who say, “I don’t know if I trust that they’re really going to have my back when it’s there.” And, yes, there could be some faith things that may or may not jive with your values, beliefs, wisdom, tradition, lifestyle stuff. So, there’s that.

What do we think about vision, dental, these kinds of health insurance matters?

Dr. Noor Ali
This depends on your level of usage. If you don’t go get your eyes checked once a year, or you don’t wear glasses or contacts, do you really need vision insurance? No, probably not. If you are using eye care, and you actually buy glasses and materials, I think there’s value in vision insurance. Similarly, for dental, if you’re just going in for cleanings twice a year, you could probably be better off paying for that out of pocket at your local dentist.

One strategy I can advise is, if you’re open to a dentist, any time a new dentist office pops up, they offer an introductory rate for cleanings and preventive care. Do a cash pay. Take advantage of that. Where dental insurance really has value is if you have horrible teeth that require continuous work, like root canals, bridges, fillings over and over again, those services are billed at much higher rates, and it’s valuable to have an insurance plan to take care of most of the bill versus you doing cash pay.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good to know. So, the negotiated rates between dental insurers and dentists are much better than the cash rates. Although, a lot of dental plans I’ve seen, it seems like their maximum coverage is a little skimpy, it’s like, “Man, if things really hit the fan with my teeth, for tens of thousands of dollars, you wouldn’t really have my back to that level.” Unlike, out of pocket maximum health insurance, it’s like shatter 20 bones, “Okay, they’ve got a hefty bill and I don’t so much.”

And with the vision, I’ve learned that some of those vision insurance, you think, “Oh, I get a free pair of glasses,” whatever, but then if you buy glasses from an optometrist office, somehow all the lenses and all, sometimes somehow, even with the insurance benefits, it ends up being way more than buying them on, like, Zenni Optical, or Warby Paker, or some of these other places. So, you may be better off cash-paying for your eye exam, getting a valid prescription, and then just going to buy your glasses online, and forgetting a vision insurance benefit.

Dr. Noor Ali
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, that’s just my own experience. Is that something you’ve observed within your clientele as well?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, and it depends on, again, the billing practices, where you live, how much they’re charging for those frames, all of those factors go into it. But I would say, if you are looking to stretch your benefits more, that strategy that you said is pretty great. Go get your eyes checked and get a prescription, and then shop around on an online provider to get it for less.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I read a juicy story about a health insurance provider using AI to deny a bunch of claims and end up getting into some trouble. And some lawyers mentioned a factoid, which I thought was intriguing, which said that, “Only 0.2% of people appeal a health insurance denial.” Is that accurate? Or, do you know? And/or what are odds of success if your health insurer says, “No,” and we say, “No, really, yes”?

Dr. Noor Ali
This is really interesting. I don’t have data to back up what I’m going to say but I’ll share my personal experience. I would say that factoid sounds right because, yeah, I would say that people don’t appeal it. However, my clients, I am absolutely tenacious when it comes to things like that. If an insurance company is denying a claim, I am so fast to appeal that claim before the denial letter even comes through. And that’s also a service that I provide and I like to do.

And, in my experience, what has happened that in that claims, denial, and appeal process, the bill from the hospital, or the emergency room, or whatever, somehow disappears because nobody wants to deal with that process. The insurance company doesn’t want to reopen the case and reassess, and the facility or the hospital writes that off as a lost expense because they say, “Okay. Well, we’re never going to get paid for this because our patient is not paying us, and the insurance hasn’t paid us, so we’re just going to file this away as an expense.” So, it actually works out if you actually appeal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And you’ll do it for us, so that’s easy.

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. Noor, wow, what a whirlwind. Any final thoughts before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Dr. Noor Ali
No, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you for your questions today, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Dr. Noor Ali
Yes, a favorite quote, I use this across every aspect of my life is by one of my favorite authors, Haruki Murakami, and he says, “If you read what everyone else is reading, you’ll think what everyone else is thinking.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. Well, speaking of what everyone is reading, what’s a favorite book of yours?

Dr. Noor Ali
Good one. Okay. The Midnight Library.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Dr. Noor Ali
Gratitude. With every step, with every breath, active, intentional gratitude.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key thing that you share with clients that they repeat frequently, they quote Dr. Noor often on?

Dr. Noor Ali
I’m going to pull something from my desk that’s for another business that I have for my company, Think Like a Woman, and I have my quote here. And my quote is, “There’s nothing more powerful than an ambitious woman aligned with her aspirations.” It’s from one of my quotes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Dr. Noor Ali
My website, DrNoorHealth.com. What’s more entertaining is following me on Instagram because you can see my entire life unfold in stories. It’s quite entertaining.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Dr. Noor Ali
If you want to be awesome at your job, take a look at your health insurance benefits. Pay attention to what is coming out of your paycheck. If you are curious if you can do better, give me a call. Talk to me and let’s see what we can do for you.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. Dr. Noor, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and success in all your adventures.

Dr. Noor Ali
Thank you. Thank you so much, Pete. Thank you for the opportunity. I love this conversation.

Sep 28
0

902: How to Ensure Great Career Fit with André Martin

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

André Martin discusses how to avoid wrong career fit and ensure your career aligns with your needs.

You’ll Learn:

  1. What right fit and wrong fit look like in practice
  2. Four powerful questions to know if a job is the right fit
  3. Why it’s OK to have a boring job

About André

Dr. André Martin is an organizational psychologist and author of the book Wrong Fit, Right Fit – Why How We Work Matters More Than Ever. He has spent 20+ years as the Chief Talent Officer of iconic brands such as Mars, Nike, Google, and Target. Now, acting as an operating advisor, coach, and consultant, André continues to counsel leaders and founders to peak performance. When André isn’t working, he can be found with his wife and two English labs on the rain-soaked trails around Portland, Oregon.

Resources Mentioned

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André Martin Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
André, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

André Martin
Hey, thanks, Pete. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. I’m fired up to get into some wisdom from your book Wrong Fit, Right Fit: Why How We Work Matters More Than Ever. But, first, I think we need to hear a little bit about your mushroom farm. What’s the story here? You do that on top of everything else?

André Martin
I do it on top of everything else, although I’m not in the day-to-day operations of it. So, the farm was a passion project by some buddies of mine that grew up in southern Missouri, and the concept behind the farm is we actually grow mushrooms in empty grain silos to the tune of about 20,000 pounds a week.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow! How many grain silos does it take for that volume of mushrooms?

André Martin
That’s one grain silo.

Pete Mockaitis
One grain silo?

André Martin
Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow! One of my first jobs, actually, was I audited, like, local municipalities and farms. I was a little auditor intern for an accounting company. And I had the privilege of getting to climb up grain silos to drop a measuring tape to assess the inventory value of the grain in the silos on the balance sheets of these farms. So, I’m quite familiar with grain silos. And I’m thinking that sounds somewhat lucrative based on the price point of mushrooms and the cost point of a grain silo. Am I overlooking something, André?

André Martin
I think you’re overlooking the length of time it takes to get it right consistently when it’s the first time it’s been done. So, the team has been at this for about four and a half years, and we’re still trying to make it consistent enough that we can guarantee that we can continue to make that kind of production month over month over month. So, we’re getting close. Hopefully, someday it’s lucrative and, even more importantly, I hope it helps us get rid of food deserts around the world someday. That’s the goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that’s so clever. And so then, do I have multiple, like, layer cake inside that grain silo? Like, how many stories, I guess, of mushrooms am I looking at?

André Martin
Think of it more like a helix.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

André Martin
It’s gravity-based. And so, what we’re really trying to do is remove a lot of barriers to mushroom farming, one of which is the cost to do indoor farming is significant but the cool thing about mushrooms is they thrive in dark and humid environments. So, these grain silos provide a really great sort of architecture to do some cool work off of. And, again, the team has been at it for a while and we’re learning every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m curious to hear, what is, in your opinion, the most delicious species of mushroom and recipe for that mushroom to be in?

André Martin
Oh, that’s a great question. So, I grew up in southern Missouri, and I remember one of my best friend’s mom, Ruth Lorman, made beef stroganoff, and that was your basic button mushroom done up with a lot of cream, a lot of goodness, and a lot of heart. So, that’s my best memory of a mushroom dish. What about yourself, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
That is good. I’m thinking about my buddy, Father Jim Herbert, and we went to get some morel mushrooms, and they were just very simple. We just grilled them up and had them as like a side dish in the middle of the rest of the meal, and there’s life for you.

André Martin
Oh, that’s great. I love them. They’re super good and great for you, so we hope they’re around and an even bigger food in the future.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, I’m glad we covered that, André. We got it now.

André Martin
Yes, sir.

Pete Mockaitis
We set the record straight on mushrooms and grain silos. Now, let’s hear about Wrong Fit, Right Fit. Any particularly surprising or counterintuitive discoveries you guys made when researching and putting this together?

André Martin
Quite a few. I think I’d start with the first one, is that, hey, when we looked at the issues around employee engagement today, we know that Gallup tells us there’s an estimated $7.9 trillion of lost productivity due to disengagement. A lot of the time, we like to think that it’s good or bad culture. It’s a toxic environment or it’s an engaging environment.

And the truth is it’s a lot more nuanced than that. So, when we talked to the hundred or so interviewees that we interviewed for the book, one of the things that came out really quickly is this idea that every company starts off wanting to create a great experience for their employees. They want to be a great place to work. It’d be counterintuitive to create anything other than that.

And so, if you start with that truth, the thing that we found that’s most surprising is that, for about 60% of people in the company, they’re pretty happy. Maybe not totally engaged but they’re content. And then for the other 40% who have the same skill set, the same background, the same affinities, they struggle, it’s like they’re slogging through mud.

And so, really one surprising idea is that there’s probably not a single best practice because every company has a different way of getting work done day to day.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, then when it comes to fit, there’s multiple styles, approaches that can work. How do we think about fit in terms of which one is good for me or not so good for me?

André Martin
Yeah, Pete, it comes down to a couple of things. The obvious things that align us to an organization are things like purpose, values and mission, the team I’m working on, the manager, the job that I have. But one of the things that came up in the book, too, was there’s this whole piece of information below the surface, which is how the company works day to day. How do we solve problems? How do we make decisions? How do we manage conflict? How do we develop people and give feedback? How do we gather and convene? What’s our relationship with time? How does information flow?

And those were the things that when we talked to talent, they were saying when the company works like you like to work in those areas, it’s easy. It’s like writing with your dominant hand every day. When it doesn’t, it can feel hard, it can be stressful, your quality goes down, you lose confidence and competence, and you end up in a place that’s really hard to go to work every day. It’s sort of the origin of the Sunday Scaries in many ways.

Pete Mockaitis
So, could you share with us an inspiring story of someone who went from feeling like their job was the wrong fit to the right fit? And what did they do? And what did they discover?

André Martin
Well, I’ll start with a story that’ll answer that question sort of in the other direction, so someone who was looking from a wrong fit experience back at what actually was right fit for them. And this was a creative marketer, and one of the places that this person started their career had very standard and consistent ways of working, so those things we mentioned: how they collaborate, how they socialize ideas, how they solve problems.

And early in their career, this person felt like that was constraining. And one of the insights from this story that was really interesting is, looking back now, what they said is, “Because I didn’t have to worry about how to present an idea, back then and that right fit experience, it was actually a pure execution or experience of my craft. That is, I was being able to do what I do best every day because all my creative energy was flowing to the thing that I do really well, as opposed to how work gets done.”

And that was sort of the big insight from the story, is this idea that your creative energy is always flowing. But for many people in wrong fit experiences, it’s flowing to how work gets done as opposed to what they’re really gifted at in this world.

Pete Mockaitis
So, can you give us some examples of some of this “how work gets done” stuff?

André Martin
Yes. So, think about it this way. There are some organizations that socialize ideas via beautiful decks. You create PowerPoint slides with wonderful images and pithy poetry. And then there’s other companies that do that via two-page memos. Amazon is one of the most popular examples of that. And then there’s others that expect really deep research papers, which is something we saw a lot at Google when you’re working in technology and machine-learning. And so, if the way that ideas get socialized don’t match the ways that you prefer to do work, it just feels harder than it should.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. Well, so then, I’m curious, how do we go about clearly identifying what an organization does on these dimensions? And what is our preference to really determine: do we have a wrong fit or a right fit and making some adjustments where we can?

André Martin
Yeah, Pete, this is one of the most interesting parts of the book. And, again, through the interviews, one thing that became really clear is that work decisions are one of the most high-value decisions we make in our lifetime. Think about it this way. We spend about 13.5 years of our adult lives at work. That’s every second, every minute, every year. It’s a huge chunk of our lives. It’s actually second only to sleeping if you think about the distribution of our time as adults. And yet we tend to make those decisions about where we work on very little information.

The interview processes, if you think about it, they’re more like first dates than they are really getting under the hood to understand what the reality is going to feel like. And if you’ve ever had a first date, I know I had many before I met my wife, although you feel that excitement on the first date, by the second, third, fourth, or fifth date, things change as you get to know the person.

And what we’re finding in companies today is that’s happening more and more regularly to talent. They get recruited with this idea of what the company is going to feel like, what the job is going to be like, and then when we get into the company on the first day, it feels radically different. And it’s in that sort of discrepancy that we’re seeing a lot of engagements start to suffer.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, what is your recommendation for a prudent, practical research approach by which we can learn the stuff before it’s too late, and we go, “Uh-oh, wrong choice”?

André Martin
I think there’s a few things I’d say, and as a psychologist, I’ll start with some of the cognitive things. First, you have to understand that there’s a few things that are at play as you’re making a big decision. And that could be the cereal you’re going to buy in the grocery store, to the house you’re going to buy, to the job you’re going to take.

First and foremost is we tend to be very influenced by successful brands and successful companies. And there’s a phenomenon in social science called BIRGing. It’s called basking in reflected glory. It’s this idea that we are going to buy into things that have had past success. And so, one of the first things I’d say to talent is just watch that. The biggest coolest brands might not be the best place for you to work.

The second thing that happens is, once you open up a job description, and you get in a recruiting process, you have to realize you’re in a marketing effort. Think about it. Every talent that is showing up for an interview, we show up on our best behavior. We’re first-date ready. We have scripted answers. We’re dressed in our best outfits. We’ve thought about what we’re going to say and how we want to present ourselves. And the same is true for the company.

And so, instead of getting a realistic idea of who each other is going to be like on a random Tuesday morning, we actually are seeing us at our best, which we know isn’t necessarily who we are day-to-day. And the third thing, from just a cognitive standpoint, is this idea of confirmation bias. Because talent is so motivated to find a job, to get the job, to work at a great brand, we tend to pay attention to only a small sliver of the available information given to us, and most of that’s subjective and from the internal source of the company, career sites, recruiters, the interviewees.

And so, the first thing I tell talent is, “Make sure you’re using a broad set of information. Pay attention to what happens in the interview. Pay attention to what’s on the website, but go and find videos. Talk to people who have recently left the company. Look at annual reports. Find all the public information on the company to sort of round out what you’re seeing.” And my rule of thumb is if it doesn’t show up in three sources, really ask yourself if it’s likely going to be true day-to-day.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so could you perhaps walk us through a research process by which someone is assessing what’s up with their prospective employer, and they have a few specific questions they want answered, and how they might get after them via these different sources of information?

André Martin
That’s great, Pete. The first thing I would tell any talent at the start of a process is the first thing you should do is not open a job description and apply for a job. The first thing you should do is take some time to really understand who you are, how you work, what you’re solving for right now, the kind of life you’re trying to build, what kind of leader or manager you work really well for.

And in the book, we have this set of excursions that really helps talent to do that. When we were talking in the interviews, one of the things that talent told me when we asked them, “When did you know it wasn’t a right fit?” And they said, “If I’m being totally honest, I knew it in the interview but I chose not to pay attention to those things.” And so, the first step is make sure you know who you are, how you work, and what you’re solving for.

The second step is to really do a lot of external research on the company. So, before the interview happens, don’t just depend on what the company sends you. Look at all those assets we talked about: annual reports, and videos of leaders, and past folks that have worked there, and really get a good sense on, “What does this company look like day-to-day?”

And then when you’re in the interviews, there’s a few key questions that will help you sort of discern a little bit more about what it’s going to be like to work there, and it’s hard because these are first dates. So, a few of the questions I really like, the first one is, “What’s the profile of the person that’s really successful here?” That gives you a sense on… and ask the follow-up question, “How do they show up for work? What does it look like when they’re in a team meeting?” And really get at, “What’s the success profile? Who’s really successful?” And ask yourself if that’s you.

The second thing I like to have people do is have someone walk you through a-day-in-the-life. So, in an interview, have them pull up their calendar and walk you through what’s on their calendar for the day. This gives you a sense on what’s important, what they’ll be working on, how they think about time, what’s their meeting cadence, all those kinds of things.

And then I also love to ask the question, “What’s the reputation of the team? And what’s the reputation of the leader?” because, again, that tells you where the team is going to be and what you can expect of some of the work that you’re going to have to do upon arriving there. And we have, again, about 10 or so questions in the book that help talent get a little bit deeper into how the company works.

Pete Mockaitis
And is the timing for these questions, is it your recommendation that it’s sort of right there in the interview, “Do you have any questions for me, André?” Like, right there?

André Martin
You know what, it’s really funny, Pete, I love the way that you bring that up because we often feel, in an interview process, like we’re being interviewed. And the truth is that you have to be at your best as an investigative journalist inside an interview process. And so, in those last five minutes, which we all get to, “Hey, André, do you have any questions for me?” often we don’t take advantage of those.

We ask a layup question, something that makes us look good or sound good. And this is your moment to really dig in and get to know the company at a deep level. So, I always would say have two or three really strong questions, and use that time. And then if you don’t get them answered, ask for more time because, again, this is one of the highest-value decisions you’re going to make in your life, and you don’t want to just be dependent on the small bit of narrowed information that you get from the company through the process.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And I’m curious, do you recommend, from a timing perspective, we’ve got the “Do you have any questions for me?” right there, first interview or second interview or third interview, and then there’s a whole another zone of time in which, ideally, you have the offer, and you’ve not yet said yes to the offer.

And it’s funny because, as I’m imagining this, I sort of think about, like, “Ooh, that’s the time when I can really just get after it in terms of my investigations and talking to people and all of that.” And so, how do you think about the timing and the sequencing? Does one line of investigation work better at one time versus another? Or, can we just do all the investigating all the time and it’s all good?

André Martin
Well, here’s what I would say, is those early questions you ask in an interview, you absolutely want to be able to convey that you’re both highly interested in the role, and also that you’re a very curious person. And so, I think it’s okay to ask some very pointed, very high-impact and meaningful questions during the interview. It can actually make you look like a better candidate.

The other thing I would say to you, and you mentioned it, Pete, there’s that moment after you get the offer and before you take it, and then there’s also a moment after you take the offer and before you start, where often we just sit and breathe, we just sort of go, “God, I got the job. I’m so happy and my job is over.” I would tell any candidate that that’s the time when you really start increasing your efforts, both so you can be really ready to onboard and get to high productivity quickly.

But the second reason is because this is your time to really find out more and more about the truth of the company. And a couple places I like to look is I almost always reach out to my LinkedIn network, and look for people that I know that have recently worked at that company but might’ve just left because they’re going to be willing to sort of tell you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about the experience and being there.

And because they’re in your network, or second in your network, they’ll usually pick up the phone, and most people want to talk about their past experiences. So, that’s a really good place to do some digging if you don’t feel comfortable about doing it in the interview process itself.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And these high-impact questions, we talked about a couple, like a-day-in-the-life, let’s see the calendar. Can you just give us bullet after bullet after bullet of some of your favorite high-impact questions you like to ask?

André Martin
Yeah. So, I talk about the person, what’s the profile of success, that’s a big one. A-day-in-the-life I do love. The reputation question is really important. And often, if you’re doing interviews with people outside of your function or your team, they’ll tell you sort of what the reputation is. I like to also get after, “What are going to be the two or three most important pieces of work I’ll do in the first 12 months?”

Because here’s the deal, Pete, as we know that job descriptions, they are a litany of bullet points about all the possible things you could do in a job really for the rest of your life. And that’s very different than what you’re going to be asked to do in the first 90 to 120 days of being there. Often, what we find is if this is the job description, this big long list of all the things you could do, often the job that you get is going to be a very narrow set of those things plus a lot of additional duties that never showed up in the job description.

So, I like to ask that question for two reasons. One, it’s important to really get out, “What is this role in reality day-to-day?” The second reason is that you want to make sure that the near-term deliverables fit areas where you’re best in class because the easiest way to be a success in a company early on is to be given deliverables that are in your wheelhouse or they’re something you’re really good at.

And when I’m looking at a job, if I look at the near-term deliverables, and I say, “Yeah, I can do those things,” but I’m not best in class at it, I might sort of think twice about taking that job because you’re transitioning into a new company, you’re building a brand-new reputation, a brand-new network, and people are going to start looking at you to say, “What kind of talent do we have?”

And if you’re doing work that you’re not great at, it can sort of cause you to create maybe a less impactful reputation than you could’ve otherwise.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. Well, let’s fast-forward in time, and so we’re in a job right now. As we think about fit, are there any telltale signs that it’s just like, “Yes, this fit is fantastic” versus “Oh, no, this fit isn’t quite right” that maybe is escaping our immediate conscious awareness at the moment?

André Martin
There’s a few. And so, one of the parts of the book that resonates, at least for me, personally, is the metaphor of what it feels like to be in a wrong fit experience. One of my favorite quotes from the book is someone mentioned they’re in the wrong fit when it felt like everyone else had a secret decoder ring for success except for them.

They were seeing people in the company that looked like them, acted like them, had the same experiences as them, had the same job, and they were excelling, when this person go, “Something just doesn’t feel right.” And so, one of the ways I think about it is if you’ve ever tried to write with your non-dominant hand, that’s what it feels like to be in a wrong fit situation.

It’s harder than it should be. You’re frustrated. You’re stressed. Your quality of work isn’t where it used to be. You start questioning whether or not you’re good enough. And I think your first instincts in that is if work feels hard, you might want to think about whether or not, long term, this is going to be a fit for you.

Some of the telltale signs are things like, “I tend to work harder. I’m putting in more and more hours because I’m trying to be impressive.” That can be a sign many of the interviews talked about, “When I didn’t have a right fit, when it was a wrong fit, I tried harder. I spent more time.” And that’s because you’re trying to make up for fit in effort, and it just doesn’t work out that well.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, André, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

André Martin
The only other thing I would say is one of the aspects of fit that I find really important is this idea that sometimes we mistake the excitement for something new with the comfort that comes from a committed relationship. And so, again, the analogy that’s really great is if you compare a first date to being married or being in a long-term relationship, a first date is all dopamine. It’s excitement. It gets your blood flowing. It’s the unknown. All those things produce dopamine which is this really powerful neurotransmitter that causes us to react in a certain way.

There’s a very different neurotransmitter that’s activated in long-term committed relationships, and that’s oxytocin. And what oxytocin feels like is it feels like more like a deep hug, like this really warm pleasant feeling. And what I worry about is, since we’re in this world where everybody’s infinitely browsing, we’re all looking for greener grass, we can sometimes mistake comfort for boredom, for lack of momentum, and we will jump ship from right fit experiences in search of dopamine or excitement when we really had maybe a place we were thriving at and we just mistook the feeling we had for something other than what it was.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, André, that’s powerful stuff. It’s funny, as we speak, just yesterday, I started listening to Anna Lembke’s Dopamine Nation, which I’m digging. I recommend it. And you’re right, that idea, especially if we’ve become so acclimated to stimulation nonstop in every format from social media to games or alcohol, you name it, that you think, “My job is boring. I got to go find something more exciting.” And yet if our job is boring, as opposed to horrific, like, that might be a good thing.

André Martin
Pete, it’s a great thing. If you think about where creativity comes from, where inspiration comes from, having a firm grounding, a sense of comfort to explore, that’s the basis of what Amy Edmondson talks about in terms of psychological safety. That is the feeling of comfort that we often are like, “I’m bored. I got to go do something else.”

And I looked at some of the stats data that are out there, 29% of employees leave their company after their first promotion. That’s stats from ADP. And 70% of Gen Z cited that they were potentially thinking about leaving their current job inside of 2023. And so, you just get this feeling that everybody has sort of mistaken this idea of comfort for boredom, and we’re jumping way too fast.

And transitions take effort, right, Pete? Like, the thing that we know psychologically is every time you move companies, every time you hop jobs, you are having to rebuild your understanding of how a company works, you’re having to rebuild the understanding of the products and services that are offered to customers, you’re having to rebuild your social network, you’re having to rebuild your reputation.

And, therefore, if you think about, in every transition you go through, your creative energy in that first year, it goes to rebuilding those things, not to your craft so you’re probably getting better at transitions but you’re not actually getting better at the thing that you’re trying to do as your craft, day to day in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. Well, André, this is probably a whole other conversation but how do we get better at being okay with being bored in our careers or, I guess, anything?

André Martin
One of my strategies, Pete, is I do a lot of self-reflection about what I’m solving for. And so, I go back, not to make this about the book, but those excursions in the book are personally made, because the one thing we don’t do enough in this high-information, high-excitement, high-dopamine world is we don’t stop, take a deep breath, take three steps back, and open our eyes really wide, and ask the question, like, “What am I solving for? What am I trying to build in terms of my life? What do I want out of my job? What kind of career am I building?”

There’s three different types of careers, for instance. Like, you can build a career around craft, company, or cause, but you can’t do all three of those things. What kind of person do I want to work for? What do I want my life to be 10 years from now? And what’s really interesting is, if you do that work, you can sort of start to see the signal in the noise, and you will, I guarantee it, look at your current experience very different, and you will look at every experience that comes after very different as well.

But we have to do that work a lot more often than we used to because there’s just an onslaught of greener grass coming at us every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you expand upon this notion of craft, company, and cause? You say we can’t have all three.

André Martin
Well, that’s the unicorn. I’m not saying you can’t but it’s really difficult. What I try to tell people is each of those careers has a very different trajectory and a very different choice you make around the types of jobs you take. So, I’ll give you, for instance, let’s say you’re of company. I don’t know what your favorite consumer brand is but let’s say you’re working for this company that you just believe in your heart and soul in what it stands for, and the products it brings to bear.

You want to be at this company for the next 25 years because you love it so much. I would tell you that your career then needs to have as many different jobs and as many different functions as possible because the strength of being part of a company as a career is that you know the system and the people in the system better than anybody else.

Right now, very different than craft. If you think about craft, craft is about this question of saying, “I want a career that ensures that I will be the best in class in a very narrow and specific area.” To be the best in craft in any specific area, let’s say my area. I was a chief talent and learning officer, and started my career in leadership development.

To be one of the best in leadership development, it’s really hard to do that and stay at a single company, because if I stayed at a single company, I see one approach to those things. If I’m at multiple companies over a career, I see five, six, or seven different ways of doing it, and, therefore, I have a lot more tools to use as I develop those assets. So, if you’re doing a career around craft, it’s really important that you think about having as many different systems as you can, within reason, to see how to do this in many different industries, in types of companies, and even sizes of companies.

And then cause, cause is the ultimate. Cause is all about, “I have this really big injustice, opportunity, or thing I’m trying to solve for in the world.” And when you have a career around cause, you really want to be at the middle of whatever is happening in that space. So, again, if you’re wanting to solve for the environment, get to a place where the environment is at risk. You want to save the oceans on the coast of California, you want to save the rainforest, but you need to be in the middle of where the action, where the thought leaders are, where all the discussions are happening. And that’ll take you wherever that movement is sort of in the world.

And so, my younger brother spent a lot of time in the Peace Corps, and he was of cause, and he went to Kazakhstan for a longer part of a year and a half because he wanted to help drive education in developing countries, and so he was definitely of cause. But I would say this, it’s not impossible to have all three, but you create very different experiences and design very different careers based on what you’re really making primary.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a very helpful framework there. And it’s nice how it seems like, “Oh, those are the opposite in some instances,” in terms of, like, craft and company, and I know folks who have gone both ways. I’m thinking about web design or systems architecture, it’s like, yeah, they probably know that better than, I don’t know, 99.99% of humans on the planet because they’d gone deep into it. And then once they’ve exhausted the learning that organization can give to them, it’s like, “If craft is your thing, then it’s time to move on.”

And, likewise, I’ve got buddies at Nike, that was their dream, and they’re still there from college to now because they think it’s just the coolest thing ever, in terms of, like, the shoes and the sports and the athletes. It’s so cool, and, likewise, he has been in a lot of different roles, and that makes you all the more valuable and hard to fire in terms of, “This guy is the glue who knows about the manufacturing, and about marketing, and about the new product design, and then the athlete partnerships.”

It’s, like, you think twice before, your next cost-cutting endeavor, you slash that guy because you’re going to miss a lot of the good connectivity that makes a behemoth of an organization function smoothly.

André Martin
Pete, I couldn’t say it better myself. And what I love about your description and your story there is, often people who are of company, they’re not maximizing their ability to be invaluable because they’re not thinking about their job progression as, “Wow, I need to broaden my network. I need to broaden my experience. I need to know every corner of this company.” And that’s the way you protect yourself and allow yourself to be invaluable over time if you truly are in love with the place, like Nike, which many are.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, you’re in Oregon. So, you’ve seen that before, I bet.

André Martin
That’s right, I have.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

André Martin
One of my favorite quotes is “Joy cometh in the morning.”

Pete Mockaitis
That is hopeful on those days.

André Martin
I’m a hopeful person, Pete, 100%.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

André Martin
It’s a new one. So, there’s a recent study by MIT, it just came out with a company called Culture 500, and they did this really cool study on culture. And what they did is they took the espoused values of all these companies that are high on culture, and they grabbed those from annual reports, and videos, and communication with the company, and then they weighted them.

And then what they did is they took those espoused values, what companies said they were about, and they compared those with the felt experience of employees on the employee review sites. And the net of the study was there’s zero correlation between the two, that what companies are espousing they stand for isn’t necessarily what’s showing up in what the felt experiences for the employees that are part of their company.

Now, that study is fraught with a little bit of a hardship because we know that the employee review sites aren’t necessarily all the employees but it gives you a good indication that, “Hey, often what we’re talking about that’s important isn’t necessarily what’s showing up in the day-to-day lives of our employees as they work for us.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I hope there’s at least a few companies that have a good match up, but, across the board, they weren’t seeing it.

André Martin
They weren’t seeing it. And I find that really fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, okay. And a favorite book?

André Martin
Dedicated by Pete Davis. He has written a book on how to get through this crisis of commitment that we’re living in the world. And I really like his perspective that it’s not a loss cause. We can still be committed to things. We just have to stop infinitely browsing as much as we currently are.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

André Martin
Favorite tool, I have been recently using Arist.co. It’s a text-based learning platform that allows the small micro doses of learning to hit you every morning via your phone, and then you can have the option to go deep or wait until the next day’s lesson. And it just allows learning to be spread over a long time, and it’s with me every day in the flow of work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit, something you do to be awesome at your job?

André Martin
Favorite habit, this is more of something I did to be awesome as a husband and a father. We practice no-text Sundays. So, from the moment all of us got out of bed until 3:00 o’clock, we would turn off our phones and our technology, and make sure that we were eye-to-eye, knee-to-knee, elbow-to-elbow out in the world. And that was a pretty fun way to put technology aside just for a little while, and have some fun as a family.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

André Martin
Yeah, this nugget that resonates for me is that “Opportunity is infinite, and human energy is not.” So, really try to spend every day at your highest and best use because we just don’t have enough time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

André Martin
I’d point them to www.WrongFitRightFit.com and also to a newsletter that I run called Monday Matters. It’s meant to be practical tips to make your week better, and that’s at MondayMatters.substack.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

André Martin
I do. I think my final challenge is back to what we talked about, because it’s one that is core to why I wrote the book, which is just be careful not to mistake comfort for boredom. The grass is inherently often not greener, and comfort is something that allows us to be at our best, and so cherish it if you have it. If you don’t, I believe it’s out there, and you can find it if you keep looking.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. André, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and many good fits.

André Martin
Hey, thank you much, Pete. Thanks for having me.

Sep 11
0

897: Jon Acuff: The Three Steps to Achieving Any Goal

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

Jon Acuff reveals why we often struggle to meet our goals—and shares practical advice for achieving results.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to make your loftiest goals more reachable
  2. The “right” amount of goals to pursue
  3. How to stay motivated when things get tough

About Jon

Jon Acuff is the New York Times bestselling author of nine books, including Soundtracks, Your New Playlist, and the Wall Street Journal #1 bestseller Finish: Give Yourself the Gift of Done. When he’s not writing or recording his popular podcast, All It Takes Is a Goal, Acuff can be found on a stage as one of INC’s Top 100 Leadership Speakers. He’s spoken to hundreds of thousands of people at conferences, colleges, and companies around the world, including FedEx, Range Rover, Microsoft, Nokia, and Comedy Central. He lives outside of Nashville, Tennessee, with his wife and two daughters.

Resources Mentioned

Jon Acuff Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jon, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Jon Acuff
Yeah, thanks for having me. I’m looking forward to it.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m looking forward to it, too. I’m excited to get your latest hot takes on goal-setting, goal-achieving from your latest All It Takes Is a Goal: The 3-Step Plan to Ditch Regret and Tap Into Your Massive Potential. But first, I think we need to hear a little bit about you and tap dancing. What’s the scoop here?

Jon Acuff
Oh, yeah, I was super popular in high school. I took tap dancing. You knew you were cool and popular if you were also into tap dancing in high school. So, I went to an all-boys Catholic high school, and we would have a musical review where we would partner with other schools that only had girls. So, it was only time to ever, like, dance with a girl. So, I was like, “I’ll do that if it requires tap dancing, let’s go.” And I genuinely enjoyed tap dancing. And I don’t tap anymore, I’ve kind of retired, but, yeah, I love tap dancing. I was a big tap dancer.

Pete Mockaitis
So, you only did the tap dancing in high school or did it carry on over?

Jon Acuff
Only in high school. No, I live in nowhere, you would, in college. Imagine you’re some roommate and I bring tap shoes to college, like in my dorm room, and in the hallway just like working on routines. Yeah, no, it began and ended in high school, 100%.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it looks and sounds really cool whenever I’m beholding it.

Jon Acuff
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you don’t want to see a lot of it. It’s like four hours of it is too much.

Pete Mockaitis
That it is. Well, I’m excited, you’ve got so much wisdom when it comes to goals. And you’ve got a fresh book here All It Takes Is a Goal. Can you tell us, anything novel, surprising, counterintuitive that you discovered while putting this one together?

Jon Acuff
Well, I always try to write books that start with a challenge I’m having in my own life, and something I’m trying to figure out, and then I see, “Do other people have the same challenge? Like, is it worth turning into a book?” And we asked 3,000 people, there’s this PhD guy, Mike Peasley, he’s a professor at MTSU here in town, if they feel like they’re living up to their potential. And 96% of people said no.

So, I was surprised at the size of that, like, that there’s a general sense that people feel like they could do more with their lives but don’t know how to. So, that kind of, I would say, that surprised me, the size of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, that’s intriguing. Do you think it’s that they don’t know how to or they think, “That just seems like a lot of work, I don’t feel like it”? What’s your vibe there?

Jon Acuff
I think it’s a variety of things. I think it feels complicated. I think we have broken soundtracks. Like, I wrote this book called Soundtracks about mindset, soundtrack being like a repetitive thought. And one of my broken soundtracks is “Mo money, mo problems.” Like, if you build a successful life, more problems, more money. Like, success comes with so many complications. It’s going to be so difficult. And then you end up playing smaller because you’re afraid of these fictional complications.

So, I think some people go, “I could if I wanted to but it sounds like it’d be stressful.” I think a lot of people just don’t know if it’s even possible. They live in a town where nobody wrote a book, so they don’t even have a concept in their head that you could be an author if you wanted to be. Like, you could just do that. And so, I think people pull back from their goals and their opportunities for a variety of reasons.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so then, what’s the big idea or main thesis behind your book there All It Takes Is a Goal?

Jon Acuff
Well, the main thesis is essentially if you have this big desire and you want to accomplish it, all you have to do is turn it into a goal. And you can turn anything into a goal, and there’s practical steps to do it. So, one of the surprises, this wasn’t a surprise of writing the book, but because you asked that question about, like, what surprised me, I’ve been surprised how many podcast interviews have pushed back against the idea of guaranteed goals.

So, in the book, I talk about there’s three different types of goals. There’s easy goals, there’s middle goals, there’s guaranteed goals. And so, I’ve had a bunch of people say, “Well, what do you mean, how can you guarantee a goal? There’s no such thing as a guaranteed goal.” But, for me, I always respond, “I couldn’t have written about that idea in book one because I hadn’t done it. I didn’t know this idea was possible. But this is book nine, and they haven’t happened because of magic. They’ve happened because I took this desire to write books, and I turned it into a goal.

And, like, when this book came out, I turned in a tenth book in the same week. And so, there’s going to be an eleventh book, there’s going to be a twelfth book, not because it’s magic or I’m extra creative but I turn something I really wanted to do, which is write books, into a goal, and I was able to execute it. So, I think that’s one of the core ideas in the book, is you can accomplish almost anything with the right steps and really enjoy it along the way.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, just to be fully clear, what is it that you mean by a guaranteed goal?

Jon Acuff
So, here’s the metaphor that I’ve been using. Most people, when they think about a goal, imagine a ladder, and it’s only got two rungs. So, they go, “I want to start a podcast,” “I want to run a marathon,” “I want to write a book.” And you have a 12-foot-tall ladder, there’s one rung at the bottom that says, “Day one,” and there’s one rung at the top that says, “Publish the book,” or, “Grow a million-listener podcast.”

And if I said to you, “Okay, Pete, you have to get to the top of that ladder,” you’d go, “This is going to be…goals are really hard. I guess I just have to jump and try to grab it.” And what my approach is: what if you had rungs that were six inches apart all the way up the ladder? Like, would that be an easier ladder to climb? Do you think you can accomplish that?” And people go, “Yeah.” And then I say, “Okay. Well, great. Well, let’s take this massive thing and then find out how to make the steps easy. Let’s do some easy goals.”

So, an easy goal has a one to seven-day timeframe. You do an experiment. You’re not going all in. People tend to go, like, “I got to go all in. I got to do it all.” Like, you’ll see people buy expensive YouTube cameras without figuring out what they want their channel to be. So, they’ll go, “I’m going to buy, I’m going to go all in,” but they don’t do the easy things first, so they lose momentum.

So, my plan is, “What’s an easy goal? How do we succeed? How do we get some proof that it’s worth turning into a middle goal?” A little more time. A little more investment. A little more effort. And then, eventually, you get to where it’s a guaranteed goal where it’s going to happen. So, an example of that would be I have a friend who wants to have a million subscribers on YouTube. He’s got about 800,000 right now.

There’s no planet where he doesn’t end up getting with a million subscribers. Like, he’s in motion. Like, there’s no, “I’m going to sell a million books in my career.” I have sold 860,000-ish books. That’s going to happen because I’m in the middle of the ladder. I didn’t say at the very bottom, “I’m going to sell a million books.” That would’ve been egotistical and silly. But I’m on the middle of this journey. I’ve done a lot of easy goals. I wrote a lot of small blogs. I’ve done a lot of small writing. And then I turn them into middle goals.

I wrote some short books, and then I wrote some longer books, and then I sold some other books. So, now I’m in the middle of the ladder. I know that’s going to happen. That’s what I mean by a guaranteed goal. It’s got factors like the results are in your control. A bad guaranteed goal would be me saying, “Pete, I’m going to hit the New York Times’ bestseller’s list.” That’s a terrible goal. Anytime an offer tells me that’s their goal, I go, “I get it. I get it. I’m so glad I hit it but you don’t control that. You have zero control over that.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, the competitors and what do people buy.

Jon Acuff
No, it’s a formula. Like, it’s a formula you don’t have access to. Like, you could sell more than 10 people on the list but if you don’t hit the formula, it doesn’t matter. So, not even just the competitors. You could sell more than every competitor but if you haven’t hit the formula that they keep private, it doesn’t matter. So, you don’t control that.

So, a guaranteed goal is you control it, it’s measurable so you’ve got some…you can measure what you’re doing. You’ve got proof of middle goals and easy goals that have succeeded. So, that’s what I mean by a guaranteed goal where your effort ensures the results.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you, yeah. Well, that’s clear, the effort ensures the results. Got it. All right. Well, could you maybe share an inspiring story of some folks who weren’t making much progress, they felt like they weren’t hitting their potential, their goals were stalled, and they saw things transformed?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, so one of my favorite stories in the book, this woman named Susan Robertson. She got her Bachelor’s Degree in the Car Rider pickup line. And what I mean by that is she’s a super busy mom like a lot of moms are super busy. And she found 10-minute, 15-minute, 20-minute segments of time where she could figure out, over a period of time, how to spend that time towards a bachelor’s degree. She finished a bachelor degree in the car rider pickup line.

And I love her story because it pushes back against the excuse we all have of, “I’m too busy. I’ve got…I’m too busy. I’m too busy. I’m too busy.” So, she’s probably one of my favorite stories.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. All right. Well, so then, tell us, we have goals, or we don’t yet have goals, or we feel the sense that we’re fallen short of potential, what are the fundamental drivers or reasons behind this?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, one reason would be you’re chasing fake goals. So, you’re chasing things you think you want to do but you don’t really want to do them. So, you’ve told people for years you want to write a book but it’s been 10 years and you haven’t written a book. Maybe you don’t want to write a book, and that’s okay. Like, that’s perfectly fine.

Maybe you inherited a goal. I meet people at times, especially college students, that’ll say, “I’m a senior about to go to law school. My mom told me I’d be a good lawyer. I don’t want to be a lawyer. Like, what do I do?” They inherited that goal from their mom, and they’re not going to really enjoy that goal. Another is impostor syndrome. That’s a really common thing. You start to work on something, and impostor syndrome goes, “You’re not a real entrepreneur,” “You’re not a real writer,” “You’re not a real runner.” “Like, you can’t go lose weight. You’re not an athlete. You have to be an athlete.”

Another one would be perfectionism. You’re trying to do it perfectly, which is impossible. And so, anytime you make a misstep, you feel like, “Okay, this isn’t the right goal for me, or I’m not the right person.” Overthinking is another one, you end up overthinking what you really want to do. I would say there’s any number of villains that get in the way, and a lot of them do boil down to you’ve got fear about the process, you’ve got fear that it’s going to hurt, you’ve got fear about the result, you self-sabotage. There are so many things get in people’s way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, having identified these, what are some of the solutions?

Jon Acuff
So, my favorite solution, let’s just take impostor syndrome. The only instant cure to impostor syndrome is to do the work. It’s the only thing that cures impostor syndrome. And an example of that would be when I first started writing, impostor syndrome said, “Ahh, you’re not a real writer. Like, you’re not a writer. Who are you to share ideas? You’re not a writer.” And it said that. And then I wrote and it got a little quieter.

And then the second day, I wrote, and it was still there, and the third day, and the fourth day, but, eventually, I looked up and I had published a book. So, when impostor syndrome came in, it was like, “Hey, you’re not a writer,” I was like, “This is awkward because I’m holding a book. It’s got my picture on it. It’s got my name right on the cover. I think I might be a writer.”

At this point, on book nine, it can’t whisper that to me because I say, “Well, there’s a stack of them. They’re in 20 languages. Like, I think I might actually be a writer.” Like, the work generates results, and results are impostor syndrome’s Kryptonite. I didn’t get over impostor syndrome and then write. I wrote until I got over that form of impostor syndrome. So, that’s a really easy example. And the fun thing is the work is available always. And the second you do even a little of it, impostor syndrome gets a little quieter.

You go to your first gym class; impostor syndrome gets a little quieter. You launch your first podcast episode; it gets a little quieter. So, that one, to me, feels really, really solvable in a really, really simple way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And what if the hangup is just like, “Ugh, I’m just kind of comfortable. That seems like a lot of work. I don’t know about all that”?

Jon Acuff
I agree, dude. I agree. Here’s what I’d say, Pete. The only thing easier than doing a goal is not doing the goal. Like, it’s really the only thing easier. The only thing easier than writing a book is not writing a book. Or, the only thing easier than going to the gym is not going to the gym. So, I think the trick here is that nobody just decides to have willpower. Nobody wakes up and goes, “Today, I have grit. Today, I’m going to be disciplined.” Nobody just wakes up and changes their life that way.

What usually happens is one of two things. You get out of a comfort zone either from an involuntary crisis, something happens outside of your control, like a parent gets sick, you lose your job, and, “Oh, I got to find another job,” or a voluntary trick, like you figure out, “I want this thing more than staying the same. I’m going to trick myself into changing. Like, I’m going to find a way to actually change.”

So, for me, when I was 34 years old, I had two kids under the age of four, a full-time job at Auto Trader, Atlanta commute, an hour and a half each way, I had freelance clients, a bunch of responsibilities, but I started a blog, and I really liked it, and I was like, “Wait a second. This seems kind of neat. Like, I wish I could do more of this.” Like, I got this small little desire.

And then I started to look at each hour of my day like a log, and I wanted to throw more of them into this burning fire, this blaze. And so, I didn’t stop watching TV as much because I was disciplined. I just wanted that time to go to this thing I absolutely loved, and I couldn’t find enough time to throw at it, so I started to get up early in the morning, I started practicing speeches in the drive to work. Like, I started throwing as much time as I could into it.

So, a lot of times, if somebody goes, “Ahh, it seems like a lot of work,” I agree. It just means you don’t have a thing you really desire yet. Like, if you had something you really desired, it would woo you into changing. It would make you want to change, not, “I have to figure out how I make myself change.”

Pete Mockaitis
And for those whose passion, desire, is at a low ebb, any pro tips for surfacing? Where is that thing?

Jon Acuff
Well, I think part of it is you might…it depends on if you’re practicing being low. And what I mean by that is nothing happens awesome accidentally. Like, nobody accidentally gets in shape. I’ve never met a single person that goes, “Yeah, I was just binge-watch Netflix, I look up and I was doing burpees. I don’t even remember getting off the couch.” Like, everything that’s awesome takes work.

An awesome marriage takes work. The default of marriage is to be pulled apart in separate directions and get a divorce. That’s the default. You have to work to have a good marriage. There’s no such thing as an accidentally awesome marriage. It takes work. Same with positivity. Same with negativity. So, an example of that is if somebody said to me, “Jon, I feel really low, I feel really down,” I’d go, “Well, tell me about what you’re practicing? Like, what are you practicing? Like, are you practicing positivity? Are you practicing negativity? Like, where are you making choices that feed one or the other?”

So, for me, I’m a very naturally negative person. Like, I’m super pessimistic, I’m very low naturally. I always joke like I have a counting crows-like temperament, like just very moppy, very jaded, cynical. But I’ve tested positivity, and I’ve tested negativity, and the ROI of positivity is so much better. Again, it’s so much more productive, like I get books written, I get to accomplish goals. Negativity never dreams. It can’t dream. It only sees the negative side of things.

So, when somebody says to me they’re low, it’s often like they’re saying, “Jon, I feel really hungry,” and I go, “Well, did you eat anything today?” and they go, “No, I haven’t eaten anything in three days.” And I go, “What? I’m going to blow your mind. I know why you’re hungry. You’re hungry because you haven’t eaten anything.”

So, if you say to me, “Jon, I feel low, I feel negative,” and I go, “Tell me about how you spent your day.” “Well, I hate my job. I was on social media arguing with strangers about politics. I listen to murder podcast episodes to work and back from work. And then at night, I watch documentaries about murders.” And then you’re like, “I don’t know why I feel negative.” I’d be like, “I know in my shirt, the clothes I wear say ‘Namaste in bed.’ Or, ‘I can’t adult’ today.”

You wore a reminder limiting yourself for an entire day, and you’re like, “I don’t know why I feel low.” I know why. You practiced that for an entire day, maybe even an entire year. What if we started practicing some other things? What if we just start, not massive things all at once, But if you have something, if this isn’t working for you, let’s practice something else? If it is working for you, like keep getting those results. That’s fine.

Like, sometimes people say to me, “This stuff is common sense. It’s common sense,” which I always push back, and go, “If you’re doing those things, it’s common sense. If you’re in the best shape of your life right now, it’s common sense. If you have more money in your 401k and retirement, if you love your job, all of these things are common sense. If you don’t have that type of life right now, this is extraordinary because you’re not doing any of it.” So, like, engage in it if you want to, or just stick with the results you have, that’s your choice. You get to choose that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, let’s say we do have the desire, we got something going, and we’re like, “All right, Jon, I got a goal. Tell me, what is this three-step plan? How do I get after it and maximize the odds that I will achieve it?”

Jon Acuff
Well, the first thing we do is we would break it down into small actions so that we could actually practice it. So, we would probably do a 10-hour test. I’d say, “Okay, here’s your massive goal. You want to find a different job. We would go what are some easy ways to start with that? Like, not find a different job tomorrow, not become a different person next week?”

What’s funny with goals, we understand some goals take time and other goals we want fast results. So, nobody ever says, “I’m going to learn Italian this week. Or, I’m going to learn Italian this month.” They know that takes time but find a new job, they go, “I got to find a new job this week. Like, an amazing new job. I got to find it this month.”

So, the first thing I do is say, “Okay, what are some actions we can actually do? How do we make it some easy goals that you can accomplish?” That’s step one. We’re going to escape the comfort zone. Step two would be, “Okay, how do we avoid the chaos zone?” Because what happens is people, when they start a goal, they get a little bit of momentum, and they want to do it all at once.

So, they go from not trying anything to, “I’m going to do everything,” they get inspired, and they land right in the chaos zone, which is too much action, too many goals. It’s why we have the phrase yoyo diet in our country because people yoyo back and forth. What happens with people is they don’t do any goals, they get a little inspired, and they try to do everything.

Like, I meet people at times with a podcast, and they’re like, “I’m going to do a daily podcast. I’m going to go all in like John Lee Dumas. I’m going to do a daily podcast.” And I go, “Have you ever done, like, a weekly? Have you ever done like a bi-weekly?” And they go, “No, I’m going for it. I’m inspired.” And I know you’re going to do seven episodes and realize podcasting is challenging, but you’re in the chaos zone, and so how do I help you get out of that chaos zone?

And then the third thing is, “How do we live in the potential zone?” which is the right amount of goals, the right amount of actions. That’s the three-step, is you escape that comfort zone, you avoid the chaos zone, and you live in the potential zone.

Pete Mockaitis
And how do we know the right amount of goals, the right amount of actions?

Jon Acuff
So, people want me to say a number. Like, people go, “How many goals should I chase?” and they want me to say, “Seven point eight. Pete, you need to do 9.3.” That’s not the answer. The answer is as many as you can do successfully. So, it’s an individual answer. So, there are some times where I’ll meet people that’ll go, “I’ve got a full-time job, I’ve got two kids under the age of five, I’ve got all these commitments.” I’ll go, “Cool. How many hours do you have to invest in your goals?”

The problem, Pete, is people go, “I got these 10 goals I want to do,” and I’ll say, “Okay, how many hours do you think it would take a week to, like, do those well?” And they’ll go, “Well, I don’t know,” and they’ll come up with a list, “It’ll take 20 hours.” And I go, “Cool. Cool. Cool. Right now, on your average week, how many hours of free time do you have? Like, right now, like is it are you dealing with too much time, like you don’t have enough things?” And they’ll go, “No, I don’t have any time.”

And I’ll go, “Okay, so you have 20 hours of goals you want to do. You have a two-hour slot every week. Which one is going into it? Like, which one?” Often, the goal is divorced from the calendar and it never happens. So, you have to say, “Here’s how much time I have, and if you’re not happy with that, here’s where I’m going to go find more time.” But that’s one of the most honest metrics. I think time is probably the most honest metric because it tells you the truth, and it’ll tell you pretty quickly what you actually have time for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And speaking of time, before, you mentioned the ten-hour, what was your term, the ten-hour…?

Jon Acuff
I said a ten-hour experiment.

Pete Mockaitis
So, what is…is it just we go after some actions over the course of ten hours and then we reflect? Or what do you mean by the ten-hour experiment?

Jon Acuff
So, I’m constantly trying to help people limit the number of goals they’re working on so they can be successful, and then build more into their life. So, again, what happens is people go, I got to do the survey, and the people that read my books, nobody who reads my books comes to me with zero goals. That never happens. The people who don’t have goals don’t read a book called All It Takes Is a Goal. They don’t even know that section of the bookstore exists. They don’t listen to podcasts like yours.

It’s like no one who’s not engaged in getting better and learning and growing is listening to podcasts like this. They don’t even know these kinds of…like, they don’t come to this category of podcasts. What happens is they tend to have lots and lots of things they’re excited about. So, part of my job is to go, “Okay, you got 22 things you’re interested in. Let’s figure out how to narrow that down a little bit so we can actually get some wins and accomplish some of these.”

So, there’s two ways you can do this, there’s probably 50 ways you can do this, but the two that I like are one I’d go, “I want you to write down a list of all the things you’ll get if you accomplish that goal.” “So, write a book.” “Okay, tell me the things you’ll get.” “Start a business.” “Tell me the things you’ll get.” Because I’m trying to get a sense of their real desire because, again, nobody changes just because. They change because the desire makes the thing worth it.

I don’t like delayed flights. I don’t like missing flights. I don’t like airports or hotel travel, but I love being on stage. I love being a public speaker. I do my entire year to be on stage 50 times a year. That’s the trade I’d make because I love it that much. I don’t even care about a delayed flight. I’ll sleep wherever in the Baltimore airport because I love doing that.

If I hated my job, the littlest inconvenience would set me off. I’d go, “Aargh, I can’t…aargh, it’s not worth the commute.” So, I initially try to get a sense of somebody’s desire. So, if I say to you, Pete, “Write down 10 things you’ll get if you do this goal,” and you go, “Ah, I can’t do it.” Great, we can cross it off the list. Like, if you can’t even to that part, you’re going to hate the rest of it. This is the easy part.

So, I do a desire check, and go, “Okay, what do you really care about?” And then I’ll do a 10-hour check, “If you want to invest 10 hours into it, you’re not going to invest the thousand it takes.” Like, if it takes me 500 to a thousand hours to write a book, that’s a pretty big investment. But I can test at the beginning, “Am I willing to even try 10 hours?” And if the 10 hours takes you three months to find, you really don’t want to do the goal. Awesome. Let’s clear that one out. I want you to have a short list that you can actually do, and actually win at, and get some momentum, and then add a bunch to your life.

Pete Mockaitis
So, the 10-hour experiment, the thing we’re testing to see if it’s present is desire. And so, we’ll know, “Hey, we did 10 hours,” or you didn’t do 10 hours. That’s telling in and of itself. Or, you did 10 hours, like, “You know what, actually I hated that.” “Oh, okay.”

Jon Acuff
Yeah, and you might know two hours in. You might know automatically, like, “No, this isn’t the thing.” Like, one of the things I say is, “I want you to find a desire you love so much that it makes Netflix boring.” Like, that’s the thing. You asked me why don’t people accomplish goals. Part of it is we haven’t given companies enough credit.

There are 50,000 people at Facebook right now, and their goal is Pete’s time. Like, that is their goal, it’s, “How do I get more of their time?” Like, the distraction industry has scaled much faster and bigger than our ability to focus. So, we don’t give companies enough credit that you go, “Man, why is it hard to do goals?” Because Netflix and Instagram are very easy. It’s not accidental that you go to look at one photo, and an hour later you’re like, “What just happened? Like, why am I on YouTube looking at, watching a video that had nothing to do?” That’s not accidental.

So, some of the reason it’s hard to accomplish goals is that there’s an entire industry working against you. Netflix doesn’t want you to have a good podcast, Pete. No, they want you to watch more Netflix, and they should. That’s their company mission. Like, Instagram doesn’t want you to get in shape. Like, that’s not their goal. Their goal is you spend 10 hours.

Like, the average American right now watches 34 hours of TV a week according to Nielsen. So, the Nielsen rating is 34 hours of TV a week. So, when somebody says, “Man, I just don’t have enough time for my goals,” I can usually help them find some time, but that’s part of why it’s challenging. That’s part of why it’s difficult.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And so then, we are pursuing the dream, we said, “All right, we’re past the 10-hour experiment. Okay, cool, cool, cool. We’re after it.” Give us some perspective on how we go about translating things into micro actions? Like, just how micro are we talking? And can you give us some examples of breaking things down that way?

Jon Acuff
Yes. So, one of my goals was I wanted to be a better friend. I realized during COVID, I was kind of isolated, I worked at home, I want to be a better friend. I want better connection. I always joke that I know I’m isolated when I over-talk the UPS guy. Like, he’s, “I just want to drop off a box,” and I’m like, “How’s your family? How’s Pam and the kids?”

So, I want to be a better friend. That’s a fuzzy goal. I can’t really operate on that one. It’s not measurable. I can’t really do anything with it. So, then I was like, “Okay, what if I can make that into a daily goal, like a small daily goal?” So, I thought about it, I worked on it a little bit, and I said, “Okay, I’m going to text one person an encouragement every day for 30 days in a row, 30 different people, 30 different encouragements.”

So, okay, now I have a measurable goal. So, then what’s a small action related to that one? Well, what if I made a list of my friends I’m going to text because I know if I get on day four, and I have to go, “Okay, okay, who am I…? Who am I…?” I’m going to quit. I’m going to get distracted by something else. So, I said, “Okay, one of the small actions is I’d make a list of 30 people I want to connect with. And that wasn’t hard, I went through my contacts, and said, “Okay, here’s 30 people I haven’t connected with lately.”

So, then I did that. So, then I made a little chart, I’ve got a little checkbox that says, “For 30 days. I would write a short text to people.” And I made it easy on myself. I didn’t say I’d write 30 handwritten notes. That’s not an easy goal. I got to find stamps and mail and addresses. So, I did that for 30 days in a row, and there wasn’t a single person that responded back, and said, “I wish you hadn’t said that today. Like, today is the worst day for you to tell me that encouragement.” Ninety percent said, “You don’t know how much I needed that today. That was really encouraging.”

So, at the end of the 30 days, it had become a guaranteed goal because, Pete, if I encouraged 30 people for 30 days in a row, I’m guaranteed to be a better friend. Like, 30 interactions with 30 different people, like I am a better friend at the end of the 30 days. That’s not a mystery to me. So, then I go, “I want to be a better dad.” Like, I’ve got two teenage daughters. I want to be a better dad. It’s not easy to raise teenagers.

So, I’m like, “What if I took that principle and I made it apply to just my kids?” So, for 30 days in a row, I encouraged my kids, and I made a list of things that I think are really special about them. So, then I make a list, and I go, “You know, McRae was really brave about this. L.E. was really funny about this,” and then I’m like, “What about actions? What if I helped them in some small ways?”

So, then I come up with a list of that. I’m like, “I could clean McRae’s…” she’s got a small fish, she’s got a betta fish, “I’ll clean the fish bowl once a week.” Like, it takes me 10 minutes but it’s one of those things that a teenage daughter doesn’t want to do. She’s busy. She’s like, “Ugh, that stupid fish,” I’m like, “Oh, I could do a list of actions.

At the end of the 30 days, we have a better relationship. Like, that’s not…again, it’s not complicated. It’s just I went out of my way and spent some time as a dad to think about things that are special about them, to remind them of those things, to do kind things for them. I’m a better dad at the end of that experience than when I was before the experience. So, that’s an example of taking something super fuzzy, like be a better dad. What does that even mean? And making it practical and actionable, and it changed our interactions.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Okay. Well, tell me, Jon, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Jon Acuff
No, no, I have a podcast where I talk about a lot about this, called All It Takes Is a Goal. So, if you’re a podcast person, and you are because you’re listening to one, check out All It Takes Is a Goal.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, maybe before I do that, I’d also want to get your take on with regard to keeping the motivation going, celebration, rewards, not celebrating, not doing rewards, pushing through the moments when you’re just not feeling it. How do you think about the motivational arc over the long term? And what can be done there?

Jon Acuff
Well, motivation is the flightiest thing in the world. Motivation tends to disappear on day two of a goal because that’s when the work shows up. So, I always tell people, “You have to bring your own motivation.” What I teach is you need a motivation portfolio. People tend to think they’re going to find their one why or their vision quest, their reason, their true north and that’ll be enough.

What I found is you need lots and lots and lots of sources of motivation, so a portfolio of motivation. So, when I work with people, I say, “Okay, what are 10 things that you’re going to enjoy about this? What are 10 forms of motivation? What are 20 forms of motivation?” Because some days, one through five won’t even move the needle.

Like, there are some days where it all takes, like, “I’m so close to the motivation, like a song gets me. Like, all right, let’s go. I listened to this song, it’s motivation.” There are some days I can listen to 10 songs and be like, “This is dumb anyway,” and I need a different form of motivation. So, I practice motivation. I don’t see motivation as a checkbox. I expect it to dissipate, I expect it to disappear at times, and I work against that, and I’m deliberate about that, and say, “Okay, I have to practice it. I have to have lots of forms of motivation.”

And the other thing is that I remind myself that excellence is boring. Like, real excellence is boring at plenty of times. So, writing thank you notes to people that nobody sees, that you’re doing all the little things, following up with people, the emails, the details, like people get to see the 30 minutes on stage but there’s 50 other things I’ve done to make that moment happen. And those things are often, like, I just have to do them. They’re small and sometimes annoying.

So, for me, I remind myself of that, and I plan a ton of motivation. I don’t expect motivation to stay long. I know it’s going to leave, and so I always say BYOH, you’ve got to bring your own hype. And so, I work at motivation pretty aggressively.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, let’s dig into that. The working on motivation. Having a portfolio. One thing might be the songs. So, you actually have documented, listed somewhere, “These are my pump-up jams.”

Jon Acuff
Yeah, totally. But, like, I’ll have a list where it’s okay. Like, I made a list the other day. Let me just…I’ll just turn to it. I’ll just tell you what’s on this list. So, I went through, and you can tell I’m a big list guy, I’m a fan of the list. I just love to kind of get ideas out of my head and onto a piece of paper. So, the other day I was, like, “Okay, if I work on building an excellent business, what will I get? What will keep me motivated? What are my forms of motivation?”

So, one of them is I can pay for my daughter to go to London. My oldest daughter got accepted to study abroad for a semester in London, and that’s awesome. And if I do my business well, I get to pay for stuff like that. Like, that’s super cool. I control my calendar. If I run my business well, I have a lot more control over my calendar. I love that.

I get to spend time with team members like Jean and Caleb. I can afford to have team members. I love that. I get to plan vacation days. I get to spend time with clients I love if I’m deliberate. So, in addition to things that are traditional, like, “Okay, this music encourages me. A walk around the block encourages me. This person encourages me. Like, a friend that I text with encourages me,” I’ll be really deliberate and go, “Man, if I work hard, I get to afford a personal assistant.” Like, that changed my life.

Seven years ago, like hiring a personal assistant, game changing for me, but I had to learn how to pay for that person, and how to help lead that person. And so, the little things like that, I go out of my way to go, “What happens if I do this well? How do I stay motivated to this?” Because, again, some of those items aren’t going to move me some days. Like, there are some times where the goal is really challenging and I have to go, “No, I’ve already committed, and I committed to somebody that I want to honor the commitment to them.”

Because if you have an accountability coach that you don’t care about, you’ll break that all day. So, you have to have some degree of, “I want to be held accountable to this person. This person matters to me.” So, yeah, I have a pretty robust list of motivation because I’ve just seen it time and time again, if you think it’ll be there, it never grows during a goal, it only shrinks. I have to be the one that grows it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jon Acuff
So, one of mine is from Brad Montague. Brad Montague is the creator of this Kid President campaign, really fun, blew up online. I asked him, “How do you do that creative endeavor with Beyonce, Obama – it was huge – and then do your next one, because there are some times, there’s a creative letdown from the next one?”

And he said, “I have to know whether I’m creating from love or for love.” He said, “When I have an idea, am I sharing it from this amazing amount of love I have for this idea? Or, am I trying to get people to love me via this idea? Am I looking for adoration? Am I looking for attention? Because that’s not going to be a very good idea. I’m not going to feel very good. Or, am I creating something because it’s so big inside me, if I don’t create it, I’m going to burst?”

And so, that’s one of the ways I look at my projects, is like, “Is this from love or for love?” And so, that’s always been a quote that’s been helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Jon Acuff
NYU, Daniel Kahneman talked about this in his book Thinking, Fast and Slow where they took two groups of college students and gave them a word bank, and said, “Create some sentences.” The second group, they had hidden words, trigger words related to being old, like retired and slow and bald and Florida.

And so then, they say, after 20 or 30 minutes, “The second part of the test is down the hall. That’s where the real test started.” They secretly timed the students walking, and the students who had read the word about being old physically acted old just reading those words. So, I put that study in my book “Soundtracks” because it’s a great reminder how powerful your thoughts are, that your thoughts can change your physical actions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jon Acuff
The War of Art Steven Pressfield. That’s the one. I love that book.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, man, I listened to the audio version. The title is perfect, it’s like, “The war of art. Like, you really, really, really will feel resistance to doing the thing, and you have to declare war upon that.”

Jon Acuff
Yeah, it was one of those books that got me through my first book. Somebody gave it to me. And so, it’s one that I’ve come back to a few times. And Seth Godin The Dip. I really like The Dip. It was a short book that had a big message for me.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Jon Acuff
Notebooks. I’m a big notebook guy. I’ve read you a list from an actual notebook. There’s a brand called Leuchtturm. They’re better than Moleskine, in my opinion. And so, I love notebooks.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit, something you do that helps you be awesome at your job?

Jon Acuff
Exercise. I need endorphins. My wife will sometimes say, “You need to go for a run,” and that’s her way of being like, “You’re kind of being a huge jerk.” So, yeah, exercise, for me, if I don’t exercise for a few days, I get super low. So, I would say exercise is a habit I use.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they Kindle book highlight it, they retweet it at your speeches and such?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, two would be “Never compare your beginning to somebody else’s middle.” So, when you start your thing, like, when you start a podcast, don’t go look at like Joe Rogan’s podcast, and be like, “Man, my podcast isn’t big enough.” And then another one would be, “Leaders who can’t be questioned end up doing questionable things.” So, if you surround yourself with yes people, you eventually implode.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jon Acuff
JonAcuff.com and then All It Takes Is a Goal is the book. It’s sold anywhere books are sold. And I read the audiobook and there’s 10 bonus chapters in it. So, if you’re into audio, and if you listen to a podcast, you probably are, check that out.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jon Acuff
Yeah, here’s what I’d say. You can’t half-do your day job and then think you’ll hustle in your dream job. You’re one person. If you practice being lazy all week, you won’t turn it on on a weekend. So, when I was jumping from jobs, back and forth, back and forth, I think that I had eight jobs in 12 years. And when I finally realized, “Oh, wait, if I actually perform well at this day job, I’ll also perform well at my dream job. Awesome.” And when I kind of connected those things, my job changed.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, Jon. Thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun and goal-dream achievement.

Jon Acuff
Thanks. I had a blast doing it, Pete.

Aug 31
0

895: The Keys to Continual Growth and Improvement with Eduardo Briceño

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Eduardo Briceño reveals the fundamental factors that accelerate your growth and improvement.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How focusing on performance actually hurts results
  2. The one feedback method that always tells the truth
  3. The five key elements that drive growth

About Eduardo

Eduardo Briceño is a global keynote speaker and facilitator who guides many of the world’s leading companies in developing cultures of learning and high performance. Earlier in his career, he was the co-founder and CEO of Mindset Works, the first company to offer growth mindset development services. Previously, he was a venture capital investor with the Sprout Group.

His TED Talk, How to Get Better at the Things You Care About, and his prior TEDx Talk, The Power of Belief, have been viewed more than nine million times. He is a Pahara-Aspen Fellow, a member of the Aspen Institute’s Global Leadership Network, and an inductee in the Happiness Hall of Fame.

Resources Mentioned

Eduardo Briceño Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Eduardo, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Eduardo Briceño
Great to be here, Pete. Thank you for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to hear some of your insights and wisdom that you’ve captured in your book, The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset into Action. But, first, I want to hear, talking about growth mindsets, wow, is it, in fact, true that you did not have any prior public speaking experience before you did your TEDx Talk?

Eduardo Briceño
That is true. And I would have never thought, I mean, becoming a public speaker, which I do now, it just didn’t even cross my mind growing up or in my young adult life, but I had started an organization, MindsetWorks with Carol Dweck and Lisa Blackwell, and a board member encouraged me to go out and have people get to know me and know who I was.

We were evangelizing growth mindset, and she thought that as part of that, I needed to kind of become a leader in the industry, and people needed to know who I was. So, I actually thought, “Hey, I don’t have time. I have so much work to do. I agree with you,” but when Carol Dweck was asked to do a TEDx Talk, she couldn’t do it.

So, then we decided, and I thought, “That would be a good opportunity to put a lot of work into 10 minutes. I can do 10 minutes. I can work really hard to prepare a great script and deliver it.” And so, I worked really hard with Carol and with others, and I was so nervous during those 10 minutes. I, the whole time, looked at the back wall and the lights and not at people’s eyes because I thought that I would just blank out if I tried to figure out what people were thinking.

So, that was my first public speaking experience was that TEDx Talk. And then that became pretty popular. It’s being over 4 million times now.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. Yes, far more than the most TEDx Talks, and it’s featured prominently on the TED proper website. Well, it’s funny, I just rewatched that, and you didn’t look that nervous.

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, I don’t know, that was surprising to me. I went on the stage, and I thought, “Okay, I’m prepared. I’ve done everything I can. And now, what’s going to help my performance is to relax. I know I’m not going to look at people, so I had a plan.” And that helped me be relaxed, and I was more relaxed than I would have thought.

And then, a few years later, four years later, I did another TEDx Talk that became a TED Talk, and that also has been viewed over 4 million times. And that was the basis for the book that I wrote, The Performance Paradox.

Pete Mockaitis
So, tell us, what’s the big idea in the The Performance Paradox?

Eduardo Briceño
The performance paradox is the counterintuitive fact that if we fixate solely on performing, our performance suffers. So often we’re really encouraging ourselves and others to just focus on executing, doing the best we know how, trying to minimize mistakes, and that hurts our performance. That is the counterintuitive fact, that is chapter one, is the problem, and the rest of the book is about the solution, how to overcome that problem.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you elaborate on the pathway? How is it that doing the same thing and trying not to make mistakes makes our performance worse?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah. So, the best way to understand this is if we kind of step out of our everyday context and look at people who are fantastic at what they do, in domains where performance can be objectively measured, so sports, chess, performing arts, incredible acrobats. If you think about how an acrobat, for an example, what they do, when we see them perform, they do these incredible acrobatic things, they do it beautifully, and they rarely make mistakes.

And we tend to kind of have this vague idea that the way they became so good is by spending a lot of hours doing that thing that we are seeing. But actually, the way they become so good is by doing something very different from what we’re seeing. When they are behind curtains, at the gym or at the studio, they are making a lot of mistakes, they’re missing the timing a lot because they’re focused on what they haven’t mastered yet, they’re focused on the next level of challenge, and the show is always evolving.

And so, it’s the time they spend in what I call the learning zone, which is when they’re focused on improvement that allows them to build their skills and to be so excellent in the performance zone. Same thing in sports, if you’re playing a championship final, you’re having trouble with a move, you’re going to avoid that move during the match. But after the match, you go to your coach, you say, “Coach, I have to work on this move,” that’s a very different activity and area of attention than what we do during the match.

And what often happens for a lot of us is that we spend most of our time, if not all of our time, in the performance zone, just trying to get things done as best as we can, trying to minimize mistakes, and that works okay when we’re novices because we’re so bad, we don’t need great learning strategies to get better. But once we become proficient, we stagnate, we don’t continue to improve, and we think the reason is we can’t improve, that’s a fixed mindset, but the reason really is that we’re not engaging the learning zone.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really great distinction because I think some of the folks would say, “Well, of course, I’ve seen myself get better the more I do a thing. That’s sort of self-evident in my own experience.” And I love what you had to say there, like, “Well, yes, that works just fine when you are really clueless.”

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, and it is amazing that we do learn that by experience. If I want to start to play tennis, I could go into the court and just play tennis with a friend, then I will get better. And so, we learn by experience that that’s the way to improve but then we stagnate once we become proficient, and then we conclude that we can’t get better. We develop a fixed mindset when we haven’t developed the skills and the habits in order to continue to improve and become excellent.

Like, if you look at an Olympic gold medalist, they’re the best in the world but they will then engage in deliberate practice to go beyond what they can do to continue to get even better. They don’t just play games and matches.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Eduardo, in a way, this is really haunting, as I think from a meta perspective of just podcasting. I think that was accurate for, maybe, I don’t know, several hundred, I don’t know, 300, 600, some number of hundreds of episodes, I think I got better just by doing more episodes and talking to folks. And then I have had a little bit of a sense of stagnation here.

And I thought it was just in my head, and I’ve heard people say, it’s like, “Oh, wow, you were pretty good when we started, and now you’re amazing.” I say, “Well, thank you. I appreciate that.” But I have felt like, “I don’t think I’m actually getting better at this,” and that just makes sense. Like, “Well, before, just doing it more times was sufficient to help me get better. And now, that is no longer sufficient to help me get better.”

And so, to use your terminology, if I were to enter the learning zone as a podcaster host, interviewer, what might be some activities I do other than just simply do one more episode?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, I have some ideas I can share but you know a whole lot about learning. So, tell me, what do you think you might do to get better?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think it’d be closely listening to some episodes and making some notes in terms of what I might have done differently. I think it could be closely observing some of the finest interviewers around to see what they’re doing. Ask for feedback and perspective from either coaches or masters of the craft, or listeners, it’s like, “Hey, Pete, I’ve heard you hundreds of times, and I have some thoughts.” But pete@awesomeatyourjob.com, lay them on me. Lay them on me, I’m listening. Thank you.

So, those are some things that leap to mind there.

Eduardo Briceño
Absolutely. Those are great ideas, and they are different than just doing episodes, and they don’t take a lot of time. And so, the great performers, whether athletes or others, they do watch their videos. Like, Beyonce watches videos of her performances after she performs, and identifies what to change and shares notes of that with her colleagues.

At ClearChoice Dental Systems, they do dental implants. They have video cameras in their consult rooms so that the people who work there, when they’re interacting with patients, after their consult, for the patients that agree to this, that agree to be recorded for this purpose, they can watch the videos afterwards and go to a particular part of the conversation that they were working on and watch themselves, and kind of think about what they can do differently and how what they tried work or didn’t work.

And one thing that they say that I love is that…sometimes when we receive feedback, feedback is amazing, feedback, I think is the most powerful learning-zone strategy in the workplace but, sometimes, especially for some people, when we receive feedback, we might reactive defensively and think, “This person doesn’t know what they’re talking about, or they didn’t really see what I saw,” but what they say is that video always tells the truth.

So, if you listen to your recording and reflect on it, and it doesn’t have to be the whole thing, it can be just how you started the recording, or how you end it, or a particular part of it, then that’s a fantastic way to think about, “Okay, like what can I do differently next time?” And one key thing, when we’re going about our work, is in order to improve, we have to change. Like, we can’t improve and not change.

So, if we do the same thing today than we did yesterday, we’re not going to get better, so we have to always be thinking about, “What is something that I can try differently?” And for that, like you said, we can observe experts, whether they are other podcasters, or we can read books, or listen to podcasts to get ideas, and identify, “Okay, what can I try differently?” and then feedbacking whatever form, like you said, is a fantastic, fantastic powerful strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
Another fun thing about that, the notion of that distinction there, is that when you’re new doing anything helps you get better, then you have to get precise. It seems like that’s analogous to what happens in physical training as well. It’s like when you’re out of shape, walking anywhere, lifting anything improves your fitness but then, at some point, that’s just not going to cut it.

Bringing the groceries from your trunk to the kitchen isn’t going do, and we need to get sort of more precise with a deliberate practice and learning in terms of, “I’m going to need to lift this level of weight this many times, in this kind of emotion in order to get an adaptation because the easy gains have already been grabbed.”

Eduardo Briceño
Absolutely. And there’s another benefit to that, which is that when we are kind of just doing and exploring an idea, an activity, and tinkering with it, just kind of doing it, we can play with it, we can try it out, we can see if we would enjoy it. And that is really important because it kind of doesn’t make sense to engage in deliberate practice and put a lot of effort into improving into something that we are not going to enjoy and that is not important to us.

So, early in our process, kind of trying an activity, playing with it, tinkering with it, is a way to improve but also it’s a way to explore whether it’s something we want to do and get better at.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I already love this stuff in terms of, “Yeah, ooh, what are some fun ways I could spend some more time in the learning zone? And what might I be doing while I’m there?” I suppose, fundamentally, in order for anyone to have any motivation whatsoever to spend some time in the learning zone, they have to believe that learning and growth is possible, and so you spend much time sharing the wisdom of the growth versus fixed mindset. For folks who are not as familiar with that, could you give us, like, the super quick crash course?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, absolutely. So, for those who have heard of the term growth mindset, I ask you to think about what it means to you. What do you think it means? Because when we ask what it means, even for people who have kind of been tinkering with it for a long time, people often say things, like, “It’s working hard or it’s persevering, or even is having a positive attitude, or is being open-minded.” And a growth mindset is none of those things.

A growth mindset is a perspective about the nature of human beings, specifically it’s the belief that people can change, that we can change and that other people can change, that our abilities or our qualities are malleable, that we can develop them. And the reason that’s important is that lots of research has shown that when we believe that we can change and that others can change, then we do the things that are necessary in the learning zone in order to improve, if we know how the learning zone works, which is another key component.

But if we don’t believe that we can change, then we’re never going to do anything to change, we won’t change, and we will confirm our fixed mindset. Similarly, if we believe that somebody else can’t change, we’re not going to share any information with them that they can learn from, so they won’t know to do anything, they won’t change, and that will create a self-fulfilling prophecy and confirm our starting belief.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, the opposite of a growth mindset is a fixed mindset, to believe that rather than things being changeable and growable, that, “Hey, you’re either good at this or you’re bad at this.” Like, “I’m just not a math person,” whatever. I’d love to get your perspective. Sometimes maybe I’m a little sleep-deprived, maybe a little stressed, and I’m interacting with something that’s tricky. I’m thinking like assembling furniture, and I get frustrated, and I feel like I’m stupid, or like I’m a loser, and I don’t like feeling that way.

And I know from all this stuff, like, “Oh, Pete, it sounds like you’re engaging in fixed mindset-type thinking, a type evaluation of this stuff,” and I’d rather not. I guess I’m curious, if we’re generally on board, like, “Yeah, growth mindset, that’s real. I generally believe that,” and yet we find ourselves drifting into thought patterns that sound more fixed mindset-y, any pro tips for how we can, I don’t know, install the growth mindset all the more deep down in our operating system so it’s alive and well and kicking and dominating?

Eduardo Briceño
So, the first thing is to acknowledge that we all experience a fixed mindset some of the time, just like you described, and a fixed mindset is part of being human. We see sometimes some abilities as fixed, or some people as fixed, and that is normal. And the really important thing to do is to notice it, like you are, and saying, “Oh, I am thinking that I can’t get better at this right now.”

And we might react with an emotional response right away, but we can observe it, let it kind of put a little bit of distance, pause a little bit, and think about, “Can I get better at this?” or, “Can I examine my mistake, to learn from my mistake?” or, “What different strategy can I use? What learning-zone strategy can I use to get better at this?”

And so, pausing, noticing our fixed mindset, and thinking about, “What can I do in the learning zone in order to improve if that’s something that I want to do?” It doesn’t mean that we should try to get better at everything. It means that whatever we do want to get better at, we can figure out what strategies are effective for that and engage in those strategies.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if I’m assembling furniture and it’s not going well, I can choose to be, like, “This is not an area, an endeavor of activity or skill that I am going to choose to really invest big in and master. I can just let that go, and that’s fine.” And, at the same time, if it’s like, “If I feel…” Well, maybe this is a broader question for all sorts of learning activities. When you’re in the midst of doing something that is hard and not going well, and you’re screwing up, and you’re frustrated, and you feel dumb, what should we do?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, say that you’re in the situation you described, that you’re trying to assemble furniture, you’re getting frustrated. You said you’re sleep-deprived, you’re tired. You can think about that maybe in the moment, if you can, maybe pause. But, at some point, when we reflect, we can think about, “First of all, what is most important to me? Why am I assembling furniture? Is that important to me? Like, is it that I want to have a beautiful home? Or, is it that I want to kind of update my couch? And why am I trying to do that? Am I trying to foster a feeling of kind of calm in my home? And how can I get better at that?”

So, sometimes what happens is that we get frustrated with mid-level goals or low-level goals, like assembling furniture, that might or might not be important to you. Sometimes we can quit at those things if that’s a better way to achieve a higher-level goal, like achieving calm, or achieving an uncluttered space, if that’s important to you.

Or, sometimes that might be the right way. It might be, “I can get better at assembling furniture, and that’s something that I want to do. It’s going to make me feel good.” But part of the answer might be, “Okay, I am sleep-deprived. Like, should I be changing my sleeping habits? Should I be going to bed earlier? Should I approach my mornings differently?” So, what is leading to my challenge right now rather than only focusing on the immediate challenge, thinking about, “What’s most important to me and what are different ways that I could get better at that most important goal?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, in so doing, you’re learning about something. You’re making some learnings and improvements on a thing that’s even more important and broader-reaching.

Eduardo Briceño
Yes, sometimes people associate growth mindset with grit or being persistent, which there’s definitely a close association, but it doesn’t mean that we need to be gritty around everything we’re doing. It means we want to be gritty and most growth-minded about the goals that we most care about, and so we need to identify what are those goals.

There’s something in psychology called the hierarchy of goals, which is like a pyramid. And at the top is what we care most about, and at the bottom is our low-level strategies around the things we do. And so, to go up the pyramid, we ask why we care. And to go down the pyramid, we ask how. And we want to be most gritty and most growth-minded about the highest-level goals because, then, our answer and how we get better at those things might be different than what we’re currently attempting.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool to get a broad perspective and not get too fixated on something that maybe doesn’t matter all that much. Okay. Well, when it comes to mistakes, you say these can really propel our growth, and you’ve categorized four kinds of mistakes. Could you lay these out for us?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah. So, I think most of us have a sense that we can learn from mistakes but, first, most of us don’t realize how important mistakes are. So, when we are in our mid-20s, the way the neuroplasticity in our brain works changes. Before our 20s, our brain changes based on experience. We walk around the street, we observe things, and our brain is reconfiguring.

In our 20s, the brain doesn’t do that as much from then but the main way that we can drive our neuroplasticity and become smarter and more capable is actually by making mistakes, is by when the brain makes a prediction, and that prediction turns out to be wrong, that’s the main way that we can proactively elicit our own neuroplasticity. That’s how important mistakes are.

But, on the other hand, so mistakes are really important, but also, mistakes lower performance. Great performances are performances where we don’t make a lot of mistakes. Like, right now, you and I are having a conversation, it’s a conversation about learning so I’d be comfortable making mistakes but, in general, like we want to not say things that are not true and not make mistakes if we are performing for others, to try to add value to others.

And so, how do we reconcile that, that mistakes are valuable but, also, they lower performance? And so, I unpack four different kinds of mistakes. That’s what chapter five is about. And so, the first, there’s the stretch mistakes, which are the mistakes that we make when we are trying to do things we haven’t mastered yet, when we are in our learning zone. And those are mistakes that are super valuable, we want to be doing a lot of those mistakes. We want to elicit those mistakes, not by trying to do things incorrectly but by trying to do things that are challenging.

But we want to try those things when mistakes are not going to create a lot of damage. So, the second type of mistake is the high-stakes mistakes, which are the mistakes that would create a lot of damage. So, if we are driving a school bus, we don’t want to make a mistake. If we’re in charge of a nuclear plant, or if we’re packing a parachute, we want to do what we know works and minimize mistakes. And that’s when we’re in the high-stakes mistakes, we want to get into our performance zone and sometimes not worry about learning at all because the stakes are too high.

The third type of mistake is the sloppy mistakes, which are when we do things that we already know how to do, and we should’ve known better. And often when we make these mistakes, first of all, often they’re not that important or they might not be important at all, and I think these mistakes can bring kind of joy and humor to our lives. Like, if I spill a smoothie all over my shirt, and I’m home, I can either choose to get upset or I can laugh about it, and I can take a picture of it and send it to my family and friends, which is what I often do.

And so, I think mistakes can bring joy and humor to our lives, but sometimes sloppy mistakes do cause damage. And so, we can reflect on, “How can I avoid the sloppy mistake in the future?” And often, when we reflect on that, the answer is there are ways to foster more focus or to change our systems and tools in order to avoid those mistakes. I could change where in my desk I put the smoothie so that I don’t spill it, for example.

And the final kind of mistakes is the aha-moment mistake, which is when we do something as we intended but we then realize it was the wrong thing to do because we have an aha moment. So, for example, my wife might be upset about something, I might calm and try to console her, and problem-solve with her, and then I might learn that she didn’t want me to problem-solve. She just wanted me to empathize and to be there with her.

And so, I did what I meant to do but I realized it was the wrong thing to do. And aha-moment mistakes are precious. When they happen, we need to just learn from them, reflect on them, and extract their precious gifts, but we can’t proactively elicit aha-moment mistakes so much, although we can, by soliciting more feedback, but the stretch mistakes are really what we can proactively drive by doing things that are challenging and changing the way we do things.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fun. And it is so true that the sloppy mistakes can bring joy and humor to our lives. In fact, I don’t think this Twitter exists anymore, which is a darn shame. But this theme exists, like, on Reddit and some places, that you had one job. And it’s just all about just ridiculous mistakes. Like, one of my favorites was the SpongeBob SquarePants episode description, like on Netflix or something, but they had this really dark murder mystery description, and then the caption is like, “Oh, I must’ve missed that SpongeBob episode.” And it just tickles me something special.

And, yes, that is fun, and we can celebrate that. And, particularly, I think that learning zone/performing zone distinction is so handy there in terms of, “Oh, yes, we’re learning now. and, boy, that is goofy and hilarious.” Well, you and I, we’re both friends and fans of Mawi Asgedom. Shoutout, episode number one. And I remember we were trying to name a company that we had started together by just combining words. And I think one of them was so just goofy, Dolphin Secrets, so I just made these memes out of that because it’s goofy, and that’s okay.

And I think, well, you lay it on me, is it fair to say that when we can laugh and be relaxed, and take joy and humor and lightheartedness about mistakes, will that actually help us learn faster and better?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, because we can observe them better, we can talk about them better, we can also avoid kind of getting triggered and having, like, a fear, an away-reaction from them. So, absolutely, in general, positive emotions help us learn. Like, sometimes, stress can be helpful, too, especially if it’s not chronic or like super high, but positive emotions can help us engage in the learning process.

And, at the end of the day, again, what is the highest goal? I think, for me, a highest goal is, like, happiness, fulfillment, and appreciation. I want to appreciate life. I want to enjoy life. So, not only is laughing about mistakes helping me learn, it’s also helping me enjoy life, which is even more important.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, anything else when it comes to learning that you want to help distinguish, clarify, myth-debunk, things that we should know when we’re in the learning zone to get the most out of it?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, there are a lot of things we could talk about. One is that sometimes we think about growth mindset or learning zone as something that is about the individual quality, is about us fostering the beliefs and the habits in our brain and in our bodies to be motivated and effective learners.

And there’s a lot of truth to that but we are social beings, and so we need to build cultures and teams and relationships where we can engage in the learning zone together because, at the end of the day, these beliefs about whether people can change are highly influenced by each other, by the people who are around me. What messages are they sending? What behaviors? Are they acting like lifelong learners or are they acting like know-it-alls? That affects my beliefs and it affects my habits.

And so, we need to kind of talk about these things with our colleagues, and think about, “Is the learning zone something that we’re doing well or not doing well? Can we get better? What do we want to work on?” and do it in collaboration because, at the end of the day, we learn a lot better in collaboration with others than on our own. More brains think better than one brain. We have different experiences, different skills, different tactics, different tools, different perspectives, we can see things from different angles, we can give and receive feedback.

And so, what I would encourage people to think about is what habits can you work on as you’re on your own, but also can you bring others into your process and build relationships that are going to lead to better learning and better performance.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic. And can you walk us through the growth propeller concept?

Eduardo Briceño
Sure. The growth propeller are the five elements that each of us can think about continuing to develop in order to become fantastic learners and performers. So, picture a propeller with three blades, and in the center of the propeller, the axis, there are two components: our identity and our purpose.

And in terms of our identity, sometimes in terms of a fixed mindset, we might see ourselves as fixed in a particular way, like, “I’m just a natural parent,” for example, “And that’s part of my identity,” “I’m a flawless athlete,” or, “I’m a natural athlete.” And that can get in the way of learning. But what we can do, and what’s most important around the identity, is to develop the identity of being a learner, being somebody who evolves over our lives, and it’s always continuing to change. So, once we can incorporate that into our identity, we’re a lot more effective as learners.

In terms of purpose, having a reason why we do things, why we care about improvement and performance, is really important because both learning and performing involve effort. And so, why are we going to spend that effort? Why do we care? So, developing that purpose as an individual and with our colleagues is something that is necessary in order for us to become great learners and performers.

The three blades are, one is our beliefs, the other ones are habits, and the other one is our community. So, in terms of beliefs, a really important belief that we’ve talked about is growth mindset versus fixed mindset. Another belief is transparency. We learn and perform a lot better when we make our thinking transparent to others because, then, they can give us feedback, they can learn from what we’re thinking.

And so, the fact that transparency is something we want more of, and we want to share more of ourselves, is something we can kind of think about. Also, agency, “To what extent do we have influence over our world rather than are we victims of the world?” is something else to think about in terms of beliefs.

In terms of habits, sometimes we think about growth mindset as something that is about learning from mistakes. So, when we make a mistake, “Do we learn from them?” That’s a very reactive or responsive habit. What I would encourage people to think about is, “Can you develop more proactive habits where changing is the default?” So, what are you doing every day in order to drive your own change and your own evolution?

And, for me, an example, a very simple example that is really powerful for me is, every morning, I remind myself of what it is that I’m working to improve, and that just primes the growth mindset. I am looking for opportunities to do that throughout the day, and it’s super powerful. And then, in terms of community, we need to build trust, we need to build a sense of belonging, and we need to work on collaboration rather than competition in order to both kind of learn and perform.

And so, the growth propeller is chapter seven, and it talks about those five components. And so, the part of the community blade is about the relationships we have with others. So, part two of the book, chapters eight through twelve, is about how we do that in our workplaces, how we build teams in organizations, that make learning the easy default.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Eduardo, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, I would just mention I really appreciate your podcast, Pete, and just your focus on learning, the workplace, makes the world a better place. It’s awesome to be on the podcast a second time. So, thanks for all you do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And could you share now a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Eduardo Briceño
Yeah, the quote I have at the bottom of my email is, “The self is not something one finds. It’s something one creates,” by Thomas Szasz.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Eduardo Briceño
Sure. There are many. One is, there’s a meta-analysis from Harvard that looked at 62 research studies that looked into, “How much medical doctors improve in their patient outcomes the more years of experience they have in the profession?” And what they found is that, on average, medical doctors got worse over time. Their patient outcomes became worse because they were so busy in the performance zone, seeing patients, diagnosing, prescribing, and most of them, on average, don’t engage in the learning zone on a regular basis.

And so, as a result, they forget information that’s relevant to infrequent diagnoses, for example, and that decreases their performance. But, of course, there are some doctors that do get better over time. But this points to the difference between experience and expertise. Experience is something we just get by doing an activity a lot. And expertise is something that we build through the learning zone, and that can happen at any age.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Eduardo Briceño
Favorite book, Mindset by Carol Dweck really changed my life. The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama changed my life as well. I’m reading a wonderful book right now, it’s called The Clan of the Cave Bear, which is about prehistoric humans. It’s super interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Eduardo Briceño
I love Roam Research. It’s a second-brain tool, whereas my knowledge management system tool, there’s a lot of other second-brain tools now. And I also love Otter. When I listen to podcasts, I download the MP3 and I upload it to Otter which transcribes it, and I listen to it through there. And what I love about that is that I can highlight kind of gems in the conversation. And after I listen to the episode, I can kind of do something with that. Either put it in my knowledge management system or send it to somebody else who would appreciate it, for example.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Eduardo, that is walking the talk. That is hardcore and I love it. Thank you. And a favorite habit?

Eduardo Briceño
Well, I mentioned one of reminding myself every morning of what I’m working to improve. Before that, the first thing that I do every day is my most treasured habit, and it is just expressing gratitude for the things that I deem most important, which is life, health, love, and peace. Noticing one of those things that are in my life and in the world just puts me in a great emotional state and makes me grateful to be alive and for what is.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often, they retweet it, etc.?

Eduardo Briceño
If we fixate on performance, our performance suffers. That’s the performance paradox.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Eduardo Briceño
So, my monthly newsletter is on my website, which is at Briceño.com, my last name, dotcom. I’m also active on LinkedIn. And my book is called The Performance Paradox: Turning the Power of Mindset into Action. I worked really hard the last three years to write all the things that we talked about today. So, that’s another way to learn more about my work.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Eduardo Briceño
My challenge would be to, “Can you engage in the learning zone a little bit more with others? Could you start a conversation with your colleagues about whether you want to continue to progress in your learning zone habits together and what you want to work on next, that you can bring other people into collaboration with you to learn and perform and accelerate that over time together?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Eduardo, this has been a treat. I wish you much good learning and performing.

Eduardo Briceño
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s been great to speak with you.