081: Lessons from Thousands of Employee Observation Hours with Dave Nevogt

Pete Mockaitis
Dave, thanks so much for being here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Dave Nevogt
Great, my pleasure.

Pete Mockaitis
Now you are a co-founder of the company Hubstaff. Can you share, first and foremost, what is Hubstaff? What’s that all about?

Dave Nevogt
It’s a time-tracking application for mostly remote teams. Our customers are mainly agencies of some sort – web development, marketing, digital marketing, that kind of thing. And they have team members all over the world and we’re proponents of remote work. So that’s basically it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. So it does time-tracking, so I can kind of see how many minutes I had Adobe Photoshop or whatever open. And what else does it do?

Dave Nevogt
It does that, it takes screenshots, it tracks your time, tracks time on specific projects, integrates in with Basecamp and Trello and Asana and those tools so that you can track time to those projects. A lot of those tools don’t have time-tracking natively, so we provide that. And basically our clients use us really for everything, from using that time to then pay their employees, to invoice their clients, to understand profitability, that kind of thing.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s nifty. And so I’m just sort of fascinated from a psychological perspective, how do people feel, like, “Are you watching me like a nanny? Are you spying on me? You don’t trust me?“ Is there any kind of that backlash, or how has the response been there?

Dave Nevogt
It’s hard to say. Yeah, there has been. It’s not been a whole lot though. I think that a lot of people use the app to basically produce job security or increase job security because if you have a person that does a great job, it’s pretty obvious you’re not going to lose them, and this helps prove how good of a job they’re doing, how active they are, the amount of work that’s done.
And also, the other thing is it helps communications speed up and kind of just flow better. Instead of being nagged by your people all the time, but your managers, that kind of thing. It’s like, managers can just log in and see what’s going on versus having to ask and then you follow up and then that’s kind of a time waster. It’s all about productivity and moving fast, but yeah, there definitely has been some of that, but I think that will be gone next few years; I think it’s going to be mainstream.

Pete Mockaitis
I think so. Just because people are accustomed to it, they expect it. And you say there are also actually some perks from the employee or the individual contractor’s perspective, like, “They don’t have to nag me or follow up or ask; they could just see – ‘Okay, looks like you’re doing fine. I can just be hands-off and work that way, just fine.’”

Dave Nevogt
Yeah, we’ve got a lot of these customers passing on their data to clients, their own clients. So since their agencies pass that data onto their own clients, give their clients a login so they can actually see what the work unfold, and so the clients don’t bug them either. So it really helps the business owner as well kind of just run their business more smoothly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood. And so, can you speak a little bit about… You’ve got a great view of folks’, sort of quantitatively, their productivity and what’s emerging on the screen, the tracking. But how does that compare to sort of qualitatively what they’re doing? How would you think about or contrast those two in terms of what can be tracked and what cannot be tracked?

Dave Nevogt
Yeah. When I’m judging an employee, I rarely judge them on what’s happening in the screenshots. I don’t look most of the time at all. So we use our own product, of course, but once you trust somebody there’s no need to look at anything. But it’s nice to have the data there. When I’m looking at the screenshots, I’m looking more from the standpoint of, like I said before, kind of “What’s happening? What does this design look like?”
If I expect to hear back on a design in say, 5 days from now, I can log in and see what the design looks like right now. I can see and correct that upfront versus having to wait 5 days and have all that wasted time. So I use it more from that standpoint.
We have a project management system as well, so we do weekly sprints and during that week progress being made on those sprint tasks and most of that progress is seen through communication and updates. So we have a daily update as well, and I get most of my data from that versus the screenshots and that kind of thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, understood. Alright, and so, any thoughts, reflections, insights from perusing that information?

Dave Nevogt
It’s just a matter of… I think priorities are important. I think that having a person assigned to a few priorities is very beneficial versus having them assigned to, you know, 35.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Dave Nevogt
That’s very hard to do for the person and for you, because you never know… Setting up priorities is so important because it’s like you always have something in your mind what is the most important. That is why those sprints work so well, because it distills down what you should be working on and pushes those things forward. So if you put 3 or 4 items on that list, you know that not only can the person continue working because they’re not being blocked by anything. One task may be blocked, but they can continue with three. But also it’s like focus is there, communication’s there, it’s not a matter of starting one thing and working 20 minutes on it, then switching to another one. It’s just more focused and that’s, I think, really important.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense – the focus time means they have less time burned through sort of attention switching sorts of costs, and there is crystal clarity on making it happen. I guess I’d also love to get your perspective… So if there’s a lot of contractors working remotely, then I imagine in working with your customers, you’ve discovered a thing or two about what practices people do in order to be sort of effective, non-distracted, able to really kind of hunker down and put forth the time to produce some things which shows up on your software. What are some of those best practices?

Dave Nevogt
Asking questions early, before trying to get at things… What I prefer is when somebody will look at a task, come up with a plan – that could be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or whatever, not a lot of time, but just a basic theory on what they’re going to do; present that for you to look at, for a manager to look at, and then basically implement. And the implementation takes a lot longer obviously than the strategy does usually. But it’s just a matter of coming up with a plan versus just saying, “Hey, what needs to be done here?” because that just sucks for the manager, it just puts everything on them, and that’s not… It’s nice to have somebody come in with a plan that shows a lot of initiative, a lot of foresight. It also helps build their experience, those that care about their experience and that they’re growing as a person and professionally.
Then we go implement the plan.
So I think asking the question early, putting your plan together early, and then when you hand something over, hand it over at very close to 100%. That means that basically you’ve been through a test yourself, you just don’t hand it over without having tested it and you don’t say things like, “Well it should work now.” I mean you go through the whole process of testing, no matter what you’re doing, whether it’s marketing or development or whatever it is, test your work, make sure you look for things like spelling errors, that kind of thing, and then you hand it over. So those things.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s excellent. And so are there kind of particular check-lists that the manager has developed, or even better – the contractor develops for themselves? Or how do you see that unfolding?

Dave Nevogt
What I just basically say is, “Is this up to your standards? Is this up to what you think my standards would be?” So those two questions. And if the answer’s “Yes”, then you can hand it over. I’ve got a flowchart on it that I hand out to people and basically… It’s kind of funny, ’cause if the answer’s “No”, you it just redirects right back to them, “Test your work.” But it puts it in a visual standpoint; at least they understand, test your work is very important.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, very good. And it’s funny how… I’m looking at it right now and will certainly link to it – the “Creating contractor accountability flowchart”. In some ways it’s funny because it feels like it doesn’t need to be said, but it often really does.

Dave Nevogt
Yeah, especially when you’re dealing with younger or not experienced people. And if you have somebody with 15 years experience, you’re not going to deal with that as much probably.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. Now tell me, are there any particular practices or ideal steps to take in terms of hiring remote employees or contractors? Are there key things to look for that you’ve seen or your clients have seen again and again and again?
These are really the things that make the difference between whether they can cut the mustard in terms of making that time available and executing, versus they really can’t.

Dave Nevogt
Yeah.  So, I look for accountability, I look for somebody that has a good personality. I like people that would talk but not overly verbose. Do you know what I’m saying? And it’s funny – these are the things I actually look for. Of course your skills are very important – your skills and experience are very important – but I think a lot of that can be learned. What can’t be learned, what I’ve seen is harder to learn are personality traits.
So I look for those first. I look for responsiveness, I want somebody that it’s their habit to just be very responsive and to make things easy on me or the manager, so everything from like, like I said, handing over a plan before you kind of start working on something versus… Even when you’re in the very beginning phases of hiring somebody… If we put out a job listing, we might get, I don’t know, 250 applicants for the job, and those applicants range from everybody, from somebody who’s going to just ask five questions upfront.
And generally those I won’t even respond to be honest because I’ve got other applicants that are making things easy on me. I’ve got other applicants that are saying, “Hey Dave, nice to meet you. What you’re doing looks great. I really like this article, I like this article. Here’s my resume, and to make it easy on you here are some examples of my writing.” That’s the kind of person I want. You see what I’m saying? They put the effort – you know that that’s a personality trait, not the other way around.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. So you see it right upfront, even before the interview stage.

Dave Nevogt
Right before the interview stage, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
What are some other acid tests whether they’re things you’re looking for in the application process or while you’re conducting interview that have proven to be effective indicators or predictors of what’s to come?

Dave Nevogt
I run marketing for Hubstaff, so one of the first things I’ll do for all of my kind of brand new hires or potential hires, even before I commit to hiring them for long, I’ll say, “Hey, put together a marketing plan.” And I won’t give them much direction on that. I’ll just say, “Put together a marketing plan”, and I’ll just see what they come back with.
If they come back with a Google Doc that’s like just bullets and a few notes and opinions, then that’s somebody I know does not rely on data, somebody that I know doesn’t have good presentation skills. Versus somebody that comes back with a formatted Google Doc. I’ll usually say I want it in Google Docs, so I won’t go that far, but formatted Google Doc, table of contents, headers, then the outline linking to studies, linking to examples – again, that’s the kind of person I want.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s fantastic. I’m a huge fan of when it comes to, sort of, “Show me what you can do.”, whether it’s a case interview for strategy consultants being hired or a “Sell me this stapler” for sales people, or “Let me look at your portfolio” for an artist or a writer. I love that – “Show me what you can do, instead of just tell me.” I guess I’m wondering, if they’re still in the candidate stage and you have a pretty substantial request that’s going to take some time, some hours, how do you navigate that? Are candidates so interested and hungry enough to kind of put up with that? Or do they say, “Heck no, I’m not going to spend 7 hours making this gorgeous plan for free.”

Dave Nevogt
Yeah, it’s all paid. And I should say this, I guess – what we do at Hubstaff is we have basically trial hires, so I’ll let it be known that, “Hey, you’re on a trial. This trial’s paid, it’ll last for say, 30 days. I understand that if you are at a current job you’re not going be able to put in 40 hours a week, I’m not asking you to do that.” But at the very least what that will do is allow us to work together and both of us make the decision, because I also don’t want somebody to quit their job and then not to work out of Hubstaff, and now they are in a rut.
So if somebody’s got a job right now I definitely don’t want to stop their current job until I can be sure that I like working with them and they can be sure that they like working with me. So that’s what that gives us the opportunity to do, and usually in that phase… So I’ll get those say, 250 resumes or applicants, I might narrow it down to 3 or 4, and at that phase that’s when I’ll start to get the marketing plans. So that will only be for 3 or 4 people, I wouldn’t be for all, because I wouldn’t have time to read it all anyway. So yeah, that makes sense. And then that trial is paid, and that’s usually the first thing I have them do in that trial.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s cool. That’s cool. And so then, of them, you’re planning to hire one?

Dave Nevogt
Yeah, one or two, depending on the scenario. Usually one or two. These are people that I like their personalities and sometimes their strengths will show themselves. If I’m looking for, again, a growth job, I may have a content marketing job open too and I may find that somebody that’s with me right now, that I like the personality but one person may fit really well with the growth job, the other person maybe not so much, but I could roll them into the content marketing job.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dave Nevogt
‘Cause again, the skills I think are pretty learned, whereas a lot of the personality stuff is not.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Thank you. So, speaking of content marketing, one piece of content I could not resist from your website is “Getting 1,000 LinkedIn connections in 60 minutes”.

Dave Nevogt
Import your Google contacts. So that’s basically what it comes down to, you import Google contacts into LinkedIn and everyone starts accepting your invites. Most of the people don’t know that you can actually take your current contact list and import them. So I’ll take all my Facebook friends, I’ll take and export those, import them into Google and sync that into LinkedIn and now you have just a bunch of things coming through.
I’ll also use Rapportive, so anybody that emails me… I do a lot of email and a lot of people that email me I generally connect with over LinkedIn because I see their profile right there on the right. That really helps me a lot actually, and it’s something that I would have a hard time doing without because it just shows me, especially if we go back to these… Let’s just take all those applicants for example.
I can see their LinkedIn profile right there in front of me, so I look at their LinkedIn profile and I can see right away how they present themselves, how they handle themselves. You know what I’m saying? If they put a lot of effort into their LinkedIn profile, ’cause really a LinkedIn profile is kind of an online resume of sorts. So I’ll look at that stuff and I’ll look if it’s formatted right, if they’ve put a lot of effort into it, that kind of thing. So yeah, that’s two things right there.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so good. And so can you tell me what is the sort of missing link that enables you to export your Facebook friends? ‘Cause a lot of times you see they have it pretty locked up. Is there a key app or what’s the formula to get the export?

Dave Nevogt
I sync my contacts through my iPhone.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Dave Nevogt
So as long as you have your iPhone enabled to basically take in contacts from Facebook, then it’ll sync those into your Google contacts. I don’t know, my set up is Google, Gmail, I use Gmail, and then I’ll use the Facebook app and basically approve the connection or download whatever for syncing contacts and then at that point it’s easy to get into LinkedIn.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, very cool. Alright, so you tell me – is there anything else you really want to make sure that we cover off before shifting gears into some of your favorite things?

Dave Nevogt
No, that’s good.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright, super. Well, could you start us off by sharing a favorite quote? Something that you find inspiring.
Dave Nevogt
Yeah, how does it go… It goes, “To the world you may be one person, but to one person you may be the world.”

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And how about a favorite book?

Dave Nevogt
Favorite book, 80/20 Principle

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Dave Nevogt
Favorite tool? Wrench.

Pete Mockaitis
Wrench, I love it. Most people go with software.

Dave Nevogt
Favorite software tool would be either Pivotal Tracker or Trello.

Pete Mockaitis
Pickle Tracker?

Dave Nevogt
Pivotal Tracker.

Pete Mockaitis
What does it do?

Dave Nevogt
It’s great. Both of those are kanban boards. And it helps you… Basically it’s project management but it’s for software developers specifically. But they’ve done a good job of basically kind of locking down the flow of the way it’s built, so it works pretty well. It’s a good way to force yourself into using weekly sprints.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice that’s been helpful for your effectiveness?

Dave Nevogt
I like to make emails extremely short in responses and I really do not ever pick up the phone, unless it’s somebody that I know – best friend, a parent, that kind of thing. But other than that, if a number calls me that doesn’t show up as somebody in my contact list I care about, I will never answer the phone.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite nugget – something that you share either in your content marketing efforts or when you’re offering expertise elsewhere? Something that you communicate that really seems to connect and resonate for folks.

Dave Nevogt
Yeah, I think that everyone should try to be an expert in something. So your writing, or your publishing of content, I think it’s going to be a thing in the future. When I look for people to hire or just contractors to use, one of the first things I look for is they’re going to have information of their own out there. Regardless of what they’re using it for, but I think it’s a great way to just get hired, it’s a great way to kind of have a diary of yourself and just make it public and make your beliefs known and take a stand. And stand for something; show what you know.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And what would you say is the best way to find you if folks want to learn more about what you’re up to or Hubstaff. Where would you send them?

Dave Nevogt
dave@hubstaff.com, email. @dnevogt is my Twitter handle. So either one of those methods.

Pete Mockaitis
Alright. And do you have a favorite challenge or a parting call to action for those seeking to be more awesome at their jobs?

Dave Nevogt
I would say, try to add value. Try to be creative, add value. I think that when you’re able to be creative, that’s when the true value of what you have is going to show up and that’s when results, moving up the ladder, people notice – I think that’s when all that happens. It wasn’t until I was able to really get creative and do what I wanted to do until I actually kind of got the results I was looking for professionally, I guess.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, got you. Well, Dave, thanks so much for sharing. This is been a ton of fun. And I hope that Hubstaff continues to grow and flourish and kick butt.

Dave Nevogt
Alright, thanks so much!