130: Managing Interns and Managing your Career with Mark Babbitt

Pete Mockaitis
Mark, thanks so much for much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Mark Babbitt
My pleasure, Pete. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think we’ll have a really fun chat. And I’d like to, first of all, hear a little bit about your story behind YouTern and how it took off. It’s a very clever name in interns, U-turns like driving. What’s the story behind all this?

Mark Babbitt
So, I have been in a couple of startups in the online recruiting world, and it occurred to us at the end of the second startup that there was a lot of work still to be done in that space but somehow we had taken the human out of human resources. All we had to do was click that Apply Now button 200 times and something good would happen.

And we were no longer building relationships. We were no longer seeking internships or apprenticeships. We weren’t doing informational interviews. We weren’t doing all of the things that we knew from World War II on were helping people build great careers.

And so with YouTern we decided to put the emphasis back on the human aspect of career-building and for the first year or so, I have to tell you, it was like crickets. Nobody cared. And it didn’t matter how good of a blogpost we wrote or how often we spoke on college campuses. We were still completely absolutely happy. We’re just clicking that Apply Now button on Monster and CareerBuilder and Indeed.

Then the recession hit and unemployment went from 13.2% to 12.3% and all of a sudden people needed an edge. They needed to work hard to find work. It wasn’t just enough to have a degree anymore. And that’s when YouTern really started taking off. So, the recession hurt many and we’d never wish that on anyone but it sure helped our business model and it sure made what we were selling and saying highly relevant.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s nifty. So, now, if whoever want to get up in there, either as an employer or a work-seeker, what would be some distinctive features there?

Mark Babbitt
Well, I think the biggest thing is our peer-to-peer networking and mentorship and especially our blog. I mean, we have resume writers, recruiters, hiring managers all contributing to our community and to our blog, giving out career advice that’s priceless. For the career centers at the universities and colleges and unemployment centers in the state and local offices, they’re just so far behind the times. Most of them, I should say, not all of them. And they’re not giving out great advice. And that’s what we take a lot of pride. The advice that you’ll see on YouTern is not just good advice. It’s actionable advice and that’s really important to us.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is so handy. Well, so, I thought we’d have a really great conversation in particular about just sort of the notions of interns because I think many workplaces they don’t even sort of go through the trouble to bring interns in over the summer or another period of time. And so I’d like to get sort of your pitch, if you will, on why, I imagine, is a fair assumption, you believe many workplaces should indeed be making the effort to bring on interns.

Mark Babbitt
Well, there’s a lot of practical reasons. For instance, delegation is something that most small business owners, middle-level managers that they usually fight all the time, “How do I have enough time to do the work that’s required of me? And how do I focus on the stuff that’s really important when I’m doing the $10 an hour task all the time?”

And so there’s a practical nature to it, certainly, but there’s also a human aspect of it that comes into play and how that is, “How are you building your succession plan? How are you filling your personal funnel? How are you giving back both personally and as a company to the community and to the local college? And how are you stepping up as a mentor?” We talk all the time, in the book, with both the practical aspects and the human aspects of providing high-quality internships that’s pretty hard to ignore.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. So, I guess I’m wondering, you made a nice case for the givers. Tell us a little bit more about the practical nature or for the takers who are like, “Oh, my gosh. Is it going to be worth my while to find someone and bring him up to speed and babysit him?” And so what can you share about some experiences from folks that have made that kind of a tradeoff well worth making?

Mark Babbitt
Well, I love your point about the givers and takers. In our book we talk a lot about the relentless givers, those who see themselves as mentors and want to fill that role. It is easier to bring on an intern when you have that mindset.

For the takers, frankly, it’s much harder. And, unfortunately, we talked about the recession just a minute ago. In 2012 and 2013, we had a lot more takers bringing on interns than we did givers and especially the unpaid variety where they were just gofers and coffee-fetchers and doing the filing and the copying and there wasn’t much value there. They’re certainly not for the intern.

At YouTern we carefully vet our employers. We want to make sure that they’re more on the mentor scale, hire on the mentor scale than they are on the taker scale, and that’s just really important. So, to answer your question more directly, if you know you have those taker tendencies maybe an intern isn’t right for you, just to be completely absolutely blunt.

Because an internship, ideally, should be a partnership. It should be one person working their butt off or helping you achieve your business goals while you set out to serve as a mentor and to teach and to provide a learning environment that they just can’t get in a classroom. That’s why they’re there. They aren’t there to do all your odd jobs and menial tasks. They’re there to learn. And you have to provide that kind of environment.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, well-spoken and I’ve had this experience myself sort of hiring interns and it’s been very enriching in terms of being able to have some help at low price but also getting a real sense of learning in terms of, “Oh,” you know. Here I’m singing all about podcasts and how those work and ID3 tagging and all the things associated with bringing a show into the light as well as doing a little bit of write-ups and what makes for an intriguing content and I’ll sort offer my feedback. And it’s been a really nice sort of give and take.

So, I guess, I’m wondering then if someone is considering bringing on interns what are some of the first steps, the first considerations? We’re recording this in March, tell me maybe, what’s the timeline like?

Mark Babbitt
So, especially if you’re looking for a summer intern, and, Pete, you know this. Interns aren’t just summer internships anymore. There’s year-round internships. There’s summer and fall semester internships. There’s virtual internships. It’s not 90% summer internships like it used to be.

But if that’s what you’re looking for, the timing is just about right for that, then, boy, the time to get started is now because the people that see themselves as overachievers that are doing really well in school, they’re absolutely focused on building a great career, the Googles, the Facebooks, the IBMs, the Ford Motor Company, they’re grabbing up those people now. As a matter of fact they started grabbing them up in January.

So it doesn’t mean it’s too late. It doesn’t mean you can’t find somebody amazing. It’s just maybe from a smaller school or a new program, but the time to start is now. And so you’ll take three to four weeks to flush out the job description and figure out what you want. You’ll take another two or three weeks to accept the applications. Another two or three weeks to interview them. Before you know it summer is here anyway. So, definitely the time to get started is pretty much right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so when it comes to thinking about the job description and what’s kind of manageable or doable, it seems like there’s really, in my experience, the name of the game is just finding that tricky balance between, “This is something strong, important and meaningful but it’s not so mission-critical that if you screwed it up I’d be busted in my team or my role.” So, what are your thoughts in terms of how you measure out the responsibilities that are appropriate for an intern?

Mark Babbitt
Well, I’ve got to tell you there is that balance, and in so many employers, so many managers and mentors, stress about, “What are we going to teach this week, next week, third week, seventh, week thirteen?” And there is something to be said for having a more formalized learning program especially if you can work on that program, co-create that program with the intern. I think that’s a wonderful idea.

But here’s the reality. Most interns are just so grateful for the experience that if you are just, to use a buzzword, if you’re completely transparent with them when they walk in one morning, and go, “You know what? I have been slammed with mission-critical items. I have no idea what we’re going to work on together today. Let’s go figure that out and just sit down have a cup of coffee for 10 minutes.” They’re more than okay with being flexible and being generous with their time and being a little patient.

And so we tell employers all the time, take all that stress away, all that anxiety about, “Oh, I have to have the whole next 13 weeks.” But, no, you don’t. You have to have the next 13 minutes planned, and then the next 13 minutes. And it really is that simple. Now, you can’t do that for the whole summer, of course, Pete, you know that.

But once in a while give yourself a break, give the intern a break and just say, “Okay, we were going to work on this today but right now I have this incredibly big fire to put out, and I need a few minutes to think about how you can help me do that. So, grab a cup of coffee, come back in 10 minutes. We’re going to figure this out together.” Right? And just be flexible. Be as flexible as the intern is willing to be.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I really like that candor and openness, and it sounds so right on. And I guess, I’m wondering then, what are some things you can do to help get the interns sort of skills up to speed quickly so that we’re making some real meaningful contributions pretty fast other than, of course, giving them mini-episodes of the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast?

Mark Babbitt
Of course. So, I think it starts with candor. It starts on that first day or maybe during the first week on the onboarding process. Ask this question, anybody does this, Pete, “What are the technical skills that you hope to gain while you’re here? And that’s probably based on your degree and the industry that we work within. But other than those things what are the three soft skills that you want to develop while you’re here? What’s most important to you?”

And by getting that input right from the start from the intern, now you are co-creating a learning plan. You’re remembering two weeks, four week, six weeks into this process that, “Wow, Emily said she really needed to learn these three things, and we really haven’t touched on those in a concrete way. Let’s get that going now.”

Or, a project will come up and you go, “Oh, I just don’t have the bandwidth for this right now. Who am I going to put on this?” Then you remember, “Oh, Emily wanted to work on her communication skills. That’s exactly what this project is about. I know, she may not be qualified but with a little supervision I’ll get the work done and she’ll gain the skills.”

And so it really does become the co-creation process and the learning that happens is mutually beneficial at that point rather than dictated or it doesn’t feel forced anymore. It’s actually working for both sides.

Pete Mockaitis
So, give us a couple of the super practical quick how-tos. Like, what’s kind of standard compensation these days?

Mark Babbitt
You know, minimum wage is minimally acceptable but here’s the reality. McDonald’s is paying $10.25 and hour. Pretty soon in many cities like San Francisco and Seattle you won’t be able to find interns, even entry-level professionals for less than $15 an hour. So, as you’re deciding how much to pay an intern, decide how much it would cost to have a real employee do that work, a qualified employee.

Now, you don’t have to pay that much, right? But pay 60% of that, right? If a good customer service rep would cost you $25 an hour then offer $15 rather than minimum wage. Make it, again, mutually beneficial because that intern is going to do qualified work that you can quantify on your bottom line. They are going to help you achieve your business goals and that’s usually worth more than minimum wage.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Absolutely, yes. And so I’ve been blessed sort of hiring out of great schools like Northwestern and their journalism program which has been pretty handy for doing some journalistic type work. So, give us the lowdown on where we should go to find outstanding people.

Mark Babbitt
Well, it definitely starts with your local universities and colleges. That’s undoubtedly the best place to start. But I have to tell you, more and more, probably over the last five years, we’ve seen this shift from utilizing the services of the career centers on campus to networking, and specifically social recruiting.

You would be amazed how many applications you get going to Facebook, going to LinkedIn groups, going on Twitter, going to small talent communities like Albert’s List and maybe YouTern, and actually putting the word out in saying, “I’m looking for a journalism major who would love to do some digital media work. Here’s what my company does. Here’s the kind of person I’m looking for. Let’s see if we have a match.” And so that’s happening a lot on digital and social media now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s the perfect segue. I do want to ask about your latest book here A World Gone Social. So, gives us sort of what’s the overall philosophy of this book and some key takeaways that we should think through both in terms of social media recruiting and just the social media element of careers in general?

Mark Babbitt
Well, thanks for asking. First, I should say, books are funny things. Anybody who’s written a book knows this. But the book has been about two and a half years now. We’re working on the second as we speak with an update. But A World Gone Social was released in late 2014, which means it was written in late 2013, and so much has changed in the social sphere now that it’s certainly worthy of an update at this point.

But here’s what’s most interesting as we, at the time, talked about how much business had already changed because of social media, and not just sales, not just marketing, not just consumerism but how we attract top talent, how we retain that talent, how we learn from each other, how to build employer brand, how to treat our customers, how to treat our employees, how to promote, how to fire. We learn so much of this now through social media.

It’s actually quite gratifying to see some of the things that we now wrote three, three and a half years ago coming to fruition, including our most recent presidential election. We said pretty soon politics, or elections are going to be won and lost on social media. And that’s exactly what happened in the last cycle. It happened, frankly, in much faster than we thought it would but there it was. There it is. And so the book is basically about how much social media has changed almost every aspect of our lives but certainly how we run our businesses and treat our customers and our employees.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so, I guess I’m wondering if you’re thinking about your typical ambitious professional, what are some sort of key developments or nuggets or practices that they should take on as a result of this new landscape?

Mark Babbitt
I think if you’re a business owner we absolutely have to embrace every aspect of social media. I mean, we now live in what we call the testimonial economy. What we say about us through traditional marketing or advertising doesn’t matter that much anymore. Why? Because people are going to Yelp and Google Reviews and Trip Advisor and Porch and Angie’s List and a million other sites, and they’re leaving what consumers feel are objective reviews about your product or service.

If you get a negative review don’t get defensive, don’t go crazy. Grab up all the emotional intelligence you can gather and just a quick answer, “I’m so sorry we didn’t meet your expectations today. I’m going to make this right. Please email me at mark@youtern.com. I got this.” And, boom, you’re done. That’s it. People see that. Three and a half sentences and they think, “Okay, here’s a guy who cares.”

So that’s on the business side. On the personal side, man, a degree is not enough anymore. Experience is not enough anymore. You have to be known as a subject matter expert. And the best way to do that, even though it’s another very-overused cliché term, is your personal brand. You have to show social proof that you actually know what you’re talking about, and that’s through testimonies, through recommendations, through endorsements.

Again, what you say about you doesn’t matter. It’s what your former boss says about you, what your colleague say about you, your vendors, your customers, the people you serve. If they’re saying good things about you, an employer is going to believe that you can do the job.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so anything else that comes to mind for the professional to do? So, you want to make sure you’re kind of actively collecting those in terms of on LinkedIn or wherever, in terms of, “This person did a great job on this,” and that you’re perhaps sharing some content that shows you’re plugged in and knowledgeable about some things and making some content. Any other sort of pro tips in terms of just smart stuff we should do on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, etc.?

Mark Babbitt
Yes, Pete, I’ll tell you one of my favorites, and that is, and you’ve probably seen this. How many times have you read a resume for an intern or a new employee or even a colleague and it says they’re passionate about marketing? And then you go to their online presence, and very frankly even continue reading their resume or their cover letter, and there is no indication that their passion is about marketing at all. None. Right? Have you seen that? I have. A million times.

And so here’s something really simple a professional can do. If you’re in marketing, go to your Facebook page, go to Twitter, go to LinkedIn, and three or four time a week put up the newest post by Seth Godin, put up the newest post by people that you trust and you follow, a social agency, or a subject matter expert on advertising. Wherever you are doing yourself learning from, share that with the world. It tells everyone checking you out online.

And, by the way, everybody, whether you’re a job-seeker or a freelancer or a solopreneur or a consultant, everybody checks you out online now. Prove online that you really do care about what you do for a living, and customers and employers will flock to your profiles.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. Thank you. Well, Mark, you are quick to share lots of good stuff in a hurry. Tell me, is there anything else you really want to make sure we cover about interns or social media before we kind of shift gears and hear about your favorite things?

Mark Babbitt
So, just one thing. As much as personal branding has become a cliché or a buzzword, it really does boil down to two things, Pete. You have to be able to answer two questions. One, “What are you really, really good at? What gets you out of bed in the morning? Where do you get your energy from?” And if you can answer that, you’re in pretty good shape.

But if you can answer the second question you’re even in better shape. The second question is, “Who will pay you to do that?” And that’s so much different than, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” question. Right? Nobody ever asks, “What are you really, really good at? And who will pay you to do that?” So, take a few moments over morning coffee or sometime over this weekend in a quiet moment and answer those two questions well and you’ll be ahead of about 95% of your branding competition.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are potent questions. And if I could put you on the spot, Mark, how about could you answer that for us? And then I’ll answer it, and then we’ll just have two examples on record to inspire the exercise.

Mark Babbitt
Well, yes. I’ve never been asked that. That’s wonderful. I am really, really good at solving problems and meeting challenges by getting the right people in the right room at the right time. And who will pay me to do that? I’m lucky there isn’t a company in the world, there isn’t a person in the world that doesn’t have a product, a service or an identity problem that doesn’t need help. And by putting the right people in the right room at the right time we can usually solve that problem.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s fun. I love that. Thank you. I’ll go with – and it is alliterative and that’s just sort of how I do things.

Mark Babbitt
I love it already.

Pete Mockaitis
But I get so fired up about discovering, developing and disseminating knowledge that transforms the experience of being alive.

Mark Babbitt
Wow. That’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
It really does. I was just chatting with another podcaster who’s given me some tips, and I was giving her some tips. It was like my heart was thumping. It’s like, “Oh, my gosh. That’s brilliant. I’ll save this money. I’ll develop more audience.” Because there’s a sense of discovery there. At other times, in earlier day, I was developing something, a potential product to help professionals and to sort of thinking and ideating and it was fun. And then just sharing it with the world and hearing them react disseminating is a blast as well.

So, folks who pay for that are kind of learning and development type professionals in different corporations and as well as individuals that I can reach through the podcast and different kind of team leaders, managers of all sorts like my Enhanced Thinking & Collaboration Training programs. It’s like, “Hey, our team would like to discover some of these things to slash some wastes out of our workweek. So, go for it.” Or whether it’s a spiritual or professional or personal finances like I just geek about discovering something and then working with it to be like, “Oh, yeah. This is the stuff.”

Mark Babbitt
Well, not only, Pete, is that full of alliteration. I can tell, and so can your audience I know, how passionate you are about that. And that makes all the difference in the world. You have this thing nailed. Now, imagine if all of the listeners to your show could not only articulate what they’re really, really good at, and who will pay them to do that, but do it in a passionate way, you could just dump the elevator pitch. You would never have to use, state, recite an elevator pitch again in your life if you could do what you just did.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s exciting. Thank you. Fun. Well, now, if you could maybe disseminate for us some of your favorite things, Mark. Maybe to start us off, how about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mark Babbitt
So, there was a sign, in Japanese, above our hotel room. I was in Okinawa in 1981, and it said, “Fall down seven times. Get up eight.” And I’ve carried that around with me everywhere I’ve gone since.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. So is the extra time is just that you’re resilient or you woke up before you started falling down?

Mark Babbitt
No, I think maybe more resilient, relentless resilience might be it.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. And how about a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Mark Babbitt
Well, that’s ongoing. I have fallen in love just in the last week or so. I’m a research, a data geek so I‘m always looking at the latest research. But Gallup just released a 215-page report on the state of the American workplace, and it’s just absolutely fascinating what we’re learning in there.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I haven’t looked at it yet. I’m excited to dig in. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Mark Babbitt
Well, my favorite book is still the first business book I ever read. I was in the military when I read it and being trained as an engineer, and still, or was an engineer in Silicon Valley for 10 years, but In Search of Excellence remains my favorite book of all time.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. We should get Peters on the show.

Mark Babbitt
Yeah. And highest compliment ever, Tom Peters went on Twitter and talked about how much he loved A World Gone Social, so it’s kind of a dream come true.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is cool. Congratulations. And how about a favorite tool whether it’s an app or software or product or service or something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Mark Babbitt
This goes along with my technology geek dumb butt but I am all about collaboration tools right now. We’re so into Slack and Gliph and Nozbe and all these things. We run three companies, all of them are virtual. We all work at home with our babies and our dogs and our families and our parents, and so anything that helps me communicate and collaborate virtually that’s way up on my list.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours that helps you flourish?

Mark Babbitt
Well, I wasn’t always like this. So I’m going to say that right out front. But at one point in my life I became a single parent with full custody of four kids, and I had to learn how to be a morning person, and that was 15-20 years ago. And still, I’m up and I’m at my computer at 5:00 o’clock every morning. I have a completely structured day. Unless I’m traveling, I do not deviate. I’m that early riser who gets more stuff done before noon than most people get done all day, and that’s my go-to habit.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a particular sort of nugget or Mark original quote, an articulation of your message that really seems to connect and resonate with people, getting them nodding their heads, taking notes, re-tweeting and such?

Mark Babbitt
Well, there is, and it actually started out as my social media rule but now it’s my rule for life. And it goes something like this, when I’m associating with people, this is my rule, no trolls, no drama queens, no divas, no takers, no fakers and no ask-holes.

Pete Mockaitis
Ask-holes.

Mark Babbitt
Ask-holes.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s number one for me.

Mark Babbitt
Ask-holes. Daisy Wright coined that term, who’s a wonderful lady in the career space. And how many people come up to you and you meet them after a talk, “Could you spend three hours on my resume telling me what’s wrong”? No. We just met. Build a relationship first then ask for a favor, right? Especially on social media, it’s so deafening and so time-consuming. So, those six types of people.

And you talk about givers and takers, I have very little tolerance for takers. If we can’t build a mutually beneficial relationship, if you can’t give us as much as you can take, even if you’re a matcher, as Adam Grant specified them, I can deal with matchers but you can’t be a taker or I’m not going to invest so much time in you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And, Mark, is there an ideal place to contact you or get in touch if folks want to learn more and see what you’re up to?

Mark Babbitt
Absolutely. You’ll find me a lot on Twitter. My Twitter handle is marksbabbitt, B-A-B-B-I-T-T. I also still answer my own email. Every email, every tweet that comes in, that’s me, and it’s mark@youtern.com, Y-O-U-T-E-R-N.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for those seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mark Babbitt
Well, you know, Pete, we kind of laid it out, didn’t we? And so my challenge is go answer those two questions. Take that quiet moment. And if you can’t answer those questions then go up to your mentors, the people who know you well, your current boss, your network, and say, “What am I really, really good at?” If you don’t know the answer to this question there’s a lot of discovery to be done.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Mark, thanks so much. This has been a ton of fun. And I wish you much luck at YouTern and ForwardHeroes and all you’re up to. Just go and flourish.

Mark Babbitt
Well, thank you, Pete. Thanks for having me on the show.