Pete Mockaitis
Mary, welcome!

Mary Olson-Menzel
Thank you, Pete. Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to hear about what lights us up and how to think about that for career and more. So, I have to open up, Mary, with what lights you up?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Writing the book lit me up, for sure. But really, really helping people find what they love to do, find what lights them up, helping them elevate their leadership in the world, is what lights me up, along with my family.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so you’ve worked with a lot of folks, executive coaching and looking at career matters, any big surprises or counterintuitive discoveries you’ve made about us humans when it comes to this sort of thing? What do you know that we don’t and should?

Mary Olson-Menzel
One of the big things, Pete, is that people think that your pedigree is the only thing that matters, right? My degree, my work experience, everything else. The truth is who you are as a human being and what you bring to the table, the energy that you bring to the table, matters even more than your resume and your pedigree and all the degrees in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I think that really resonates and makes a lot of sense And I just love that the book title, the question, “What Lights You Up?” So, pedigree doesn’t matter so much, and what we bring to the table matters a whole lot. Could you share with us, why the title “What Lights You Up?” What makes that a super central and important question to address, as opposed to a nice to have somewhere in the mix?

Mary Olson-Menzel
What lights you up is so meaningful because it’s really truly about what drives you every day. What gets your head off the pillow? What are you passionate about? Where are you finding purpose in your life? And, to me, that all encapsulates your inner light and really what it is that makes you happy on a day-to-day basis in your work.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, it’s almost like, in some ways, your play, your fun, can speak to your destiny, for good or for ill, and I thought, “Oh, that’s maybe a little heavy-handed.” But I’m going to lay it on you, Mary, who wrote the book What Lights You Up? what do you think of that?

Mary Olson-Menzel
I love it. I mean, because what lights people up is different, right? And so, what we really need to think about is, “Where is our sweet spot? What is it?”

There’s a term, Pete, that I love called Ikigai, and it is the Japanese word for the intersection of this, it’s basically a Venn diagram of “What’s your passion? What’s your purpose? What are you good at? And what does the world need?”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, we had the CEO of Korn Ferry, Gary Burnison, on, and he was speaking to a similar thing with regard to, if you really know what your strengths are, what your purpose is, what makes you happy, then if you’re happy, you’re probably motivated. And if you’re motivated, you’re going to outperform.

And I was like, “Okay, well, here’s a guy who’s got a vantage point on careers and talent and progression,” and that seems to resonate and synchronize with these very same concepts. It’s like when you’re into the thing, you pour yourself into that, and then you get good at it, and then you’re distinctive, and you can really kind of build a career, a brand, a reputation, a legacy from that.

Mary Olson-Menzel
Absolutely, and it’s so true. When you’re into what that thing is, you start to feel like you’re in the flow. You know, those moments when you feel like you lose track of time, you lose track of everything because you’re so into what you’re doing, and you’re so excited about it. So, that is what we want more of for everyone. Because what we want is for people to be able to amplify and elevate their own natural gifts in order to make the workplace a more enjoyable place to be.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And could you share with us a story of someone who, maybe they were in a career that was not lighting them up, they did some introspective research to discover some things, and then rejiggered their activities and the job role they were in to see cool results?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Absolutely, there are so many. Part of why I wrote What Lights You Up? is because I developed a 10-step pivot program to help people do exactly that. And so, the myriads of stories are so much fun, but I really like this one. There was a media executive in New York City who was at a crossroads in her career. And she kept looking at all the usual places, right, other media outlets, everywhere else.

And I said to her, “I challenge people to tap into ‘What is it that they’re passionate about? What are their side hustles? What are their hobbies? What are they doing outside of work that’s getting them excited and lit up?’” Well, she was really into horses. And so, we went down this whole path where she said, “Gosh, you know, I mean, if I really didn’t need money, I would just work with horses.”

And I said, “Hold on. Listen to yourself. Maybe there’s a way that you can work with horses and make money and use your existing skillset to do it.” And so, she ended up pivoting into a role up in Saratoga Race Course, where she was the head of marketing and media relations for Saratoga Race Course. She did all kinds of really cool programs with the horses.

Pete Mockaitis
That is really cool. And I love that notion that, in terms of the flow, you’re getting yourself lost in it.

Okay. Well, can you walk us through the process, the steps by which we determine this?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Yes. Well, first, you have to take a good look in the mirror, really, really get very, very clear on who you are and what stage of life you’re in, and what you need from that stage of life. We’re all in different spots. We could be just starting our careers and we need to make money, and we just want to make enough money to travel and go out and have a couple drinks on a weekend, but then your stage changes.

There are other stages where you get married, you start a family, and your needs in your career change. So, it’s about getting very, very clear into where you are at this moment in time, what it is that’s making you happy currently, and then starting to think about, “Wait, am I where I want to be in life?”

And if you can answer “Yes,” well, that’s great. Then let’s just look for ways to keep growing and keep going down a path that you already have started that is really great for you. But what if your answer is no? If your answer is no, then it’s really about thinking, “Okay, what’s working in my life? What’s not? And how do I change that? How do I create a roadmap for what could be next?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. And so then, any other key questions that you find super helpful at this stage of the game to elicit insights?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Absolutely. There’s so much that you can start to think about at this stage of the game. You really tap into, “Where are the moments in my day when I’m at my best?” From there, you really think about, “Okay, where are the moments in my day that are draining my energy?” We all have them. Even those of us that love what we do, there’s moments or there’s tasks in our day that drain our energy.

And so, really starting to think about, “Okay, where can I go from here? How can I get more of what it is that I like, what it is that I enjoy, and also what I’m good at? Where can I make the biggest difference, not only in my career and how I feel about it, but in the world?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then what’s our next step?

Mary Olson-Menzel
The next step is to dust off that resume and start getting really very serious about updating the resume, updating your LinkedIn profile, thinking about who you’re going to reach out to in your network, because you cannot do it alone. You have to tap into your network and the people around you. And in the book, I say, “If your inner light is your superpower, your network is the super-highway that’s going to get you your next job.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, in the course of resume and LinkedIn tweaks, any top tips or tricks, do’s or don’ts, things that you see again and again and again that we should all just be doing or not doing?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Yes. Stop stressing about the resume, number one. The resume is kind of now what I would say your calling card. It’s that little thing that’s going to get you in the door so it has to tell a story, yes, the story of your career. It has to be clear, concise, but it doesn’t have to be that complicated. And so many people get so stressed about their resume that they lose sight of the fact that this is only one piece of a job search.

So, take the pressure off yourself on the resume. Make sure that it’s clear, concise, easy to read. The average recruiter spends six to ten seconds looking at your resume, so it just has to be eye-catching, clear, so that it catches their eye, because then the next thing they’re going to do is go to your LinkedIn profile. And your LinkedIn profile, these days, as of 2025, is exactly where it’s at.

This is where people are networking, this is where people are finding jobs, and this is where hiring managers and recruiters take a deeper dive into who you are as a human being and what your professional profile looks like.

Pete Mockaitis
Tell us more. LinkedIn profile, content, conveying who I am as a human being, how does that work?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Okay. Well, you have all of the information from your resume on LinkedIn, so you’re transferring all that data to your LinkedIn profile. But what LinkedIn does is it takes it up a big step further. You’ve got your profile picture, you’ve got your connections, you’ve got what people are saying about you, you’ve got all kinds of different things that you can put on your LinkedIn profile to make it very robust, to kind of give a fuller picture of who you are as a professional, who you are as a human being. And then, even more importantly, once you’ve gotten that all set, the next thing is to engage on LinkedIn. And so, that is really a very, very important part, starting to put your thoughts out there, professionally, not politically, hopefully, not in other ways, but, really, professional thoughts, like, “Oh, I saw that Google is doing this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”

Then engaging with other people. So, Pete, if you put something really interesting out on LinkedIn, I’m going to like it, I might share it, and I might even repost it with my thoughts. So, this is where you’re starting to create some momentum, positive momentum, with the algorithms of LinkedIn so that more and more people are noticing you on there.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, you said don’t do the politics. When you said who I am or who you are, and LinkedIn is sharing this, I guess I’d love some more of your perspective on that with regard to what belongs there and what doesn’t. Because I think who I am, I think is much broader than the career business-y facet of Pete Mockaitis. But, in your view, is LinkedIn then for more than just the job career business-y part of a professional?

Mary Olson-Menzel
It has become a little bit more than, which is actually kind of nice, in my opinion, because when you’re looking for a job, when you’re living out there in the world, you are not just what you do. You are a whole human being, and so I think that’s the really important part. I mean, I have shared things about my kids on LinkedIn.

My mom passed away last year. I shared a whole post about her and how she inspired me in my life.

So, it has become a little bit more personal, which is, I think, really great, because I think it just shows the kind of person that you are with the things that you’re sharing. You do run the risk, though, of unconscious bias from a hiring manager if you start sharing things that are too personal.

Pete Mockaitis
Could you give us an example of what’s too personal?

Mary Olson-Menzel
I tell most people to stay away from politics and religion on LinkedIn. That is much more for your own private conversations or other kinds of conversations. I think that when you’re sharing things on LinkedIn, it’s really about amplifying and elevating who you are as an executive, who you are as a professional, but also who you are as a person.

So, if you can keep it with a more productive and positive spin, what you’re sharing, or from a learning, “I went through this really hard thing, and this is what I learned from it. I want to share this with the rest of you so that you all can learn from this, so that you don’t have to go through this hard thing.”

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. All right. So, we got our introspection, we got our resume in LinkedIn, looking fabulous. What’s next?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Next is reaching out to that network to start having conversations. And the one mistake, there’s many mistakes, but one of the top mistakes that a lot of job seekers make is that they just look for the openings. So, I’m going to use Google as an example again. Pete, you want to go get a job at Google? You’re going to look for, what does Google have open? What are they hiring for?

And in my book, I basically say flip your job search inside out. Don’t just look for the openings. Don’t just scroll on Indeed or scroll on LinkedIn. Start to create a target list of companies that you’re inspired by, a target list of companies that feel like companies that you might want to work for. And I put those companies into three categories that I call the three Ps.

One is your usual prospects. Like, our friend from New York City in media, she was looking at usual prospects just in other media and entertainment companies. The next category is your pivots. She could have taken those media tools and skills that she has into environment where she could have done something really interesting but then she really was focused on her passions, and that’s the most fun area to focus on. That whole area is like, “Hey, if I can make money doing something I’m passionate about then I’m winning.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, cool. All right. And so, any pro tips when we’re doing this reach out? What do we say? What do we not say?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Yes. So, you’ve got the target list of companies, that’s the place that you start. And so then, you go on to LinkedIn and into your network, and you say, “All right, who do I know that works at Google? Who do I know that…?” For Google, I’m just using them as an example today, but, “Who do I know that works at Korn Ferry? Who do I know that works at 3M?”

Whatever is on your target list, starting to look into your network, and say, “Okay, who can I talk to that’s working there or that knows somebody who’s working there?” And then that’s when the very warm connections start.

Keep it short because people’s attention spans are not very long these days. Stay really, really focused on, “Hi, Pete, I’m very interested in talking to you. I’m in transition and I’d love to hear what the opportunities are at XX company.” Simple. And if you have mutual connections, “Hey, Pete, I’m connected to you by Joe. Joe says great things about you and thinks we should talk.”

Keep it so simple. Because, immediately, they’re going to look at your LinkedIn profile and check out who you are anyway, so you don’t have to give a lot of words into who you are and what you’re looking for. Just, “I’m looking for my next career adventure, and I’d love to talk.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And what’s our next step?

Mary Olson-Menzel
The next step is having the conversation. You can do it, obviously, in the good old-fashioned way of a phone call. You could do it on Zoom. You can do it on Teams. You could meet for coffee. But just remember that people are busier than ever these days, so ask for 15 to 20 minutes of their time. And if it goes longer, that’s just a bonus. It means you guys are clicking.

But 15-20 minutes just to connect, and then talk to them about what they’re doing. Just be curious, I mean, curious about human beings, curious about what they’re doing, curious about what it’s like to work at that company. And then when you’re wrapping up the conversation, number one thing to never forget is to ask, “How can I help you in return?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful. And then, while we’re asking them questions, are there any key pieces of insight or questions that are super powerful that you recommend to try to include within that conversation?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Definitely delve into what the culture is like. You want to make sure that that culture, of whatever organization that you’re targeting, is a good fit for you and for what you want out of the workplace. But also try to ask them to introduce you to people, “Are there three people that you could introduce me to or three names of people that I should be reaching out to, to get some help?” And then, of course, always ask, “What are the next steps?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, after you’ve had these conversations, what’s next?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Well, then you hope that Joe, our friend Joe, who connected us, will say, “Well, great. You know what, Mary? I’d love for you to come in and talk to the hiring manager. I know that we’ve got open positions in this, this, and this.” And then if you’re lucky, sometimes it’s a much longer game than this quick and this what’s next.

But if you’re lucky, you get in, do an interview, and then you tell your story, and that’s where the magic happens. The resume just tells me who you are, but the way that you would tell your story is what’s going to draw me in and want to hire you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And how do we do that well?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Well, we start at the beginning. People, just remember this. Literally, don’t start from where you are currently. Start at the beginning because the brain is wired to listen to a story that’s in chronological order, “I started at undergrad here. I did this.” Talk about the transitions to, for example, I worked at Tribune Company in Chicago for almost 10 years.

The transition of why I left Tribune Company was because we had a job opportunity in New York. So, make sure that you’re not only talking about your accomplishments, but also the ways and the reasons that you left one particular job to go to another one.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And then, let’s say that conversation went smashingly well, and we have an offer. What now?

Mary Olson-Menzel
What now? This is fast forward career coaching. I love it. So, what now? You’ve got an offer on the table and you really have to think about, “Okay, is this offer…?” Yes, it’s amazing, you’ve gotten this far, “But is it an offer that’s going to work for me and my stage of life right now?”

So, you really want to weigh out all of your options with the offer. Is it compensation-wise what I want? Is the quality of life that I want going to be there? Is the culture that I want going to be there? going to be there? Where are the growth opportunities? Where are those? How can I make sure that I have forward momentum once I get into this job?”

And then, benefits package. All of it falls into a whole package for the whole person. And, once again, you are a whole person who’s negotiating a whole package for your life.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. And so, when it comes to the negotiation, do you recommend we go ahead and do that?

Mary Olson-Menzel
That’s a tricky one. There are ways to negotiate, but you don’t want to push so hard that you turn them off and potentially rescind the offer.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Mary Olson-Menzel
Yeah, I know. This is it. The stakes are really high. You’re at this point, and so you have to know exactly where you can negotiate. There are a lot of hiring managers who will tell you, “I mean, you’re at the top of my salary band, and this is as high as I can go.” All right, well, then you’re not going to negotiate on the salary, but you can potentially negotiate on the softer things, like maybe more paid time off, maybe a little extra vacation time, maybe a sign-on bonus, maybe they’ll pay for you to go get your graduate degree or pay for some professional training. Those are all negotiables that will help you get to a better place where you feel really good about the offer package.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then, in terms of the actual dance or conversation, are there any things you recommend, magical words or phrases that we do say or we don’t say?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Well, I think the number one thing to think about is gratitude. Gratitude is everything when it comes to a negotiation, but also, when it comes to life. I mean, truly. I think that if you come to it from a place of appreciation, “Thank you so much for this offer. I am really excited to start at this company. I just have a few questions. Is there any room to move on the salary? Is there any room to negotiate something else?” So, coming from that place of appreciation and gratitude and really helping them understand that this is a place you want to work and you want to make it work for both of you.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. So, you’re just asking about the flexibility. And that’s sort of an interesting question in that, I suppose, it’s in the employer’s interest if they really want you to be honest. Because, I mean, if you just wanted some savings, you’d be like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. No flexibility whatsoever,” you know? Rigid as a bar of iron.

Mary Olson-Menzel
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
However, hopefully, you’ve got them really, really fired up for you, in particular. And I guess it also varies a great deal in terms of, it might not even be very emotional at all in terms of, “Well, actually, no. This compensation package is standardized across all of North America, and so that’s kind of what it is.” So, “Okay, glad I asked. Now we know,” and you can sort of make the thumbs up, thumbs down decision on those terms.

As opposed to, I’ve heard other people say that they just have carte blanche authority to give a 10% salary increase to anybody who bothers to ask without approval from anyone higher up. It’s like, “Oh, wow. Well, that sure sounds like if that’s a semi-common policy…” you tell us if it is, Mary, “…then I should probably make sure to ask.”

Mary Olson-Menzel
You know, Pete, you brought up the most important thing – honesty from day one. Truly. So, when you start going through the interview process, a recruiter or a hiring manager is going to ask you, “What are your compensation expectations? What do you want to make? What do you need in this job?” And, hopefully, both sides are being very, very honest and upfront so that there are no surprises by the time you get to that point.

And, by the way, I can’t remember who said this recently, but they were saying, basically, it was an actor who said, “I’ve got this magic word is, ‘Thank you so much. By any chance, can you do this? By any chance, can you do this?’” So, you’re not saying, “I demand,” “I want.” You’re saying, “Hmm, is there a little wiggle room here? Is there a chance that this can go up 10%?”

And if they can, hopefully, they’ll be honest with you, and say, “Yes, absolutely,” and then they just made your day and you made 10% more that year. But if they can’t, they’re going to be honest with you, too, about that. And then you’ll start to be able to see where the negotiation space is.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Okay. Well, let’s say, “Hooray! A deal is made. A job offer made. A job offer accepted,“ any pro tips for the first weeks and months?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Yes, lots. So, the first 30, 60, 90 days of your tenure at this company are so important. You really, really want to become a sponge, you want to become a student of that organization, and you want to work side-by-side with your boss, with HR, to make sure that you’re meeting all the key clients, key stakeholders, and making sure that you’re having one-on-one meetings with these people so that you’re getting to know all of the people that are going to be surrounding you on a day-to-day basis.

And in What Lights You Up? I have a whole sheet of talking points to have those meetings, like, “Tell me about a typical day. What’s a day in the life for you? What keeps you up at night, Pete? How can I help with that by coming into this role?” All of those things, “How can we best work across departments?” You shouldn’t just be meeting with people in your department. You should be meeting with other departments, too, so that you can see where there’s room for cross-departmental collaboration.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And, tell me, we sort of walked through a process timeline. Are there some things you recommend that we just do always outside of when we’re specifically thinking about maybe a new opportunity or a transition, but just a regular wise thing to do to keep our careers and trajectories sharpened in a great spot?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Well, always remember that your career growth is in your hands, so don’t always rely upon your boss or the people in the organization to be constantly looking for opportunities for you. You’ve got to be open to those opportunities and be looking for them, and have it be a conversation with your boss too. So, one, never stop growing once you’re in that role, but also even if you’re so happy in this role, make sure that you’re keeping your network strong. Make sure that you’re having a friend at another company every once in a while.

Make sure that you’re watching what’s going on with other companies so that you’re not only growing within your own organization, but you’re creating a presence around you that can support you if, all of a sudden, the worst thing happens and you get laid off the next day. You want to have that network strong all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Mary, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Mary Olson-Menzel
Yeah, I would just reiterate that. Be open to the opportunities that are around you. Be open to conversations around you. Become a student of not only the industry that you’re in, but a student of life. Be curious about what’s going on around you, and just remember that you can focus on what lights you up. You can focus on what makes you happy. And I’ve seen thousands of my clients do it, so just don’t lose hope.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mary Olson-Menzel
One of my favorite quotes is “The whole secret of a successful life is to find out what one’s destiny is, and then to do it,” and that is by Henry Ford.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Mary Olson-Menzel
I mean, I’m really kind of loving Mel Robbins right now. She’s just written this book called Let Them. It’s “The Let Them Theory.” And it’s all about how other people are going to do things that maybe you don’t like but you don’t have control over that. All you can control is what you react and how you react and what your mindset is. So, in life right now, somebody’s doing something you don’t like? Let them. But you can control how you react to it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Mary Olson-Menzel
One of my very favorite books is a book called Leading with Gratitude by two of my fellow Marshall Goldsmith “100 Coaches” colleagues, Chester Elton and Adrian Gostick. Just a great, great book, all about bringing gratitude into your day-to-day life and how it just changes everything.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool?

Mary Olson-Menzel
My favorite tool that anyone can have access to is one called StrengthsFinder. And you can get it on Amazon, you can take the test, you can get your top five strengths. But what I love about it most, Pete, is that it throws away the notion that we were talking about earlier that, actually, that your CEO of Korn Ferry was talking about.

When you’re leaning into your natural gifts, you can amplify everything you’re doing. When, in America, companies many, many years ago would be like, “Well, Pete is a really great interviewer, but how good is he at finance? Maybe we should send Pete to some finance classes.” No, Tom Rath just blows this out of the water, and says, “No, let’s just continue to amplify our own strengths so that we can continue to get better and better at what we do and what we’re good at, and looking at our own natural gifts and bringing those to the workplace.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Mary Olson-Menzel
My favorite habit, which has become a must-do most days, is, as soon as I get the kids off to school, I do a quick meditation, and then I get into a Peloton workout. And that, before I’ve started my day, work can go off in different directions, and you can be fighting fires or doing whatever you have to do all day, but I already know that I’ve gotten my kids off to school safely, I’ve grounded myself with a meditation, and I’ve taken care of my body so that I have more energy for the rest of the day with my clients.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with clients and readers and audience members?

Mary Olson-Menzel
I really think that my favorite quote from the book, is it’s imperative to work, to keep the lights on in your house, but it’s even more important to keep the lights on in your heart and do what you love. Because when you’re doing what you love, you’ll get hired faster, you’ll get promoted faster, you’ll make more money, whatever money is to you, whether that’s time or cash or whatever, and the byproduct of being happier.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mary Olson-Menzel
They can connect with me on LinkedIn, as I said. It’s the best place to connect. Mary Olson-Menzel at my LinkedIn profile. You can also go to MaryOlsonMenzel, all one word, dot com, for anything you need to know about the book. And then for any work that we do is MVPExec.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mary Olson-Menzel
There’s no better time than today to start doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mary, thank you. I appreciate this and wish you the best.

Mary Olson-Menzel
Thank you, Pete. It’s been fun.