189: Insider Recruiter Insights with Randstad’s Josh Vesely

Pete Mockaitis
Josh, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job Podcast.

Josh Vesely
Yeah. Great to be here. Thanks so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you tell us a little bit about your nickname or that you call yourself Talent Chef? What’s this about?

Josh Vesely
Yeah. It’s a recent name that I came across. So I was talking to somebody, and you might know this from our previous discussions, but we acquired Monster not too long ago and we’ve been doing a lot of collaboration with Google, and Google for Jobs is this new platform that they’ve designed. And instead of just taking a one size fits all approach to finding a job or to mapping out your career, what Google for Jobs is doing and what Monster is doing is taking a whole bunch of different ingredients, so culture and salary and benefits and just all these different reviews and information that’s out there, and putting it into a place where individuals can see that, they can contribute to that material, and hopefully it helps people make better decisions on where they want to go work.
And so I thought about that, and a lot of what I do in working with companies is putting together the different ingredients, the different flavors of what makes them a great place to work, and then putting that in a format that allows the world to see it. So I really just feel like whether it’s your own career and you need different experiences and levels and lengths of time within different organizations, the same is said for organizations when they’re approaching how to make the best talent decisions of who comes to work for them. So it takes a whole bunch of different ingredients to make the best recipe, if you will.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And you do this frequently in your role. Can you give us just a quick background on what’s Randstad USA, the company, and your role as the Senior Vice President of Talent Solutions all about, just to orient quickly there?

Josh Vesely
Sure. So what is Randstad USA? So we have been historically known as a staffing company, which I think is how most individuals would probably categorize us if they were put on the spot. What I would say is we are the largest talent delivery engine in the world, not only in the U.S. So what that means to me is we have access to the most candidates across a diverse spectrum of skillsets, everything from manufacturing and warehousing to healthcare, nursing, and executives, to bring to organizations that are looking for the best people to come work for them. So that’s what I would say Randstad USA is.
What I do here is I work with organizations, typically in the Fortune 1000, to identify the right talent strategy of how to build their organization and make them the most effective they can be. And I think that has changed significantly over the last seven years to become a much more diversified strategy, where it used to be I hired a fulltime person or I hired a temporary employee. And I’ve used both of those strategies in silos and in separate and different ways, but the way that the world is today is you need to look at all different types of resources to get the work done and to be the most effective and efficient that you can be in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that’s so helpful. Thank you for orienting a bit. So you have one of the most fascinating potential vantage points, I’d say, in terms of the world of work and jobs and employment and the whole marketplace, how that’s going on. When we were chatting previously, you were getting me so excited just about the lay of the land right now and how it’s an employee’s market. Could you elaborate a little bit about that and some of the most striking trends that you’re observing these days here in 2017?

Josh Vesely
Absolutely. I mean, there’s a lot of different trends that are transforming the way work gets done. And I’ll take a step back to just share what I think the biggest challenge is. So if anybody is ever going to look for a new position or make a career change or just enter the market in the first place, I’d always want them to be aware of what is most organizations’ primary challenge that they face today, which is the cost of resources, human capital, is going up somewhere between 5% to 7% a year.
So most companies, their number one cost in terms of a line item in their budget is their people. And that cost goes up every year because of annual increases or healthcare or other benefits, somewhere around 5% to 11% a year. And so what that means is most companies can’t pass that type of a cost increase down to their customers, so they need to become more efficient with the people that they have. And they need to become more efficient as they grow because the goal of most organizations is to grow. And so anybody that can help contribute to that efficiency in what they do for the company has a very valuable place in that organization.
But that wasn’t necessarily your question. Your question was what’s facing the marketplace. So since the labor market has really been measured, there’s three measurements that really kind of guide where we are from a supply and demand perspective within employment. The first is how many new jobs are being created every month, how many people are being hired into jobs every month, and then what is the quit rate that month, meaning how many people are choosing to leave their position without being asked to leave or suffering some sort of larger reduction in force or downsizing? Because month to month, unemployment is really impacted by those three things.
So for the first time in history, since all of those metrics have been tracked, you now have a situation where there are more new job openings every month than there are new hires, which means the amount of new hires is no longer exceeding the new job openings. So new job openings continue to grow every month and that gap is getting larger. And as that gap gets larger, it’s more unsustainable. And at the same time, also contributing to that trend, more and more people are choosing to quit their job either (a) because they’re retiring from the workforce, or (b) they’re unhappy with what they’re doing and there’s so much opportunity that’s out there that they’re getting another job and they’re choosing to leave the one they have, which adds to another job opening, which creates this ever widening gap between the number of positions that get filled and the number of positions that get opened every month in the country.

Pete Mockaitis
And just how dramatic? You said it’s the first time in history that we’ve observed this, so that sounds striking. And so how big is that gap?

Josh Vesely
So what I could say is that I don’t know the exact number. And throughout 2016, you saw this kind of ebb and flow where, for the first time, there was more new job openings than there were new job hires. But then it would kind of dip back down where the two would cross over and it went back and forth throughout the year. Since January of this year, it has always been more new job openings than new job hires, and every month the gap continues to get wider.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow. So then the implication there is if you are a talented professional, you got options.

Josh Vesely
Yeah. So for the general economy and for whoever chooses to believe the national unemployment figure is somewhere around 4% to 4 ½%. It depends on what research you look at. But for a college educated individual, I would say it’s less than 1%. If you’re in a STEM field, any sort of science, technology, engineering, or mathematics, it is probably as close to 0% as you could get before actually registering a significant amount of the population.

Pete Mockaitis
Hotdog. Okay. So that’s where it is. So that is largely segmented, I guess, based on… The 4%, 4 ½% number looks very different based on we’re talking about having college degrees or whatnot. So are the headlines that we’ve seen about folks graduating from great schools and having a heck of a time finding a job, is that kind of behind us, or is there another kind of wrinkle or subsegment to mention there with that story?

Josh Vesely
Well, yeah. I mean, there’s always wrinkles or, I would say, exceptions because what I do find is that the entry level job is not as available as it was before. So if you’re graduating with a major that isn’t in the sciences, so maybe a liberal arts degree, and you didn’t do any internships or you haven’t really worked or been a part of any clubs, you’re going to struggle to find a decently paying entry level position because the fact of the matter is a lot of that work has been automated away.
I’ve got technology that can schedule meetings in my calendar and remind me to do things, so I don’t need an assistant, even as a senior vice president, where 15 years ago I probably had an assistant to do all that stuff for me. So individuals that are graduating may not have the opportunity to get into a middle management $50,000 a year job, but they certainly have enough opportunities to go to work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood.

Josh Vesely
And I separated the two, the college degree and the STEM workforce, because I want to get very clear. Individuals that have a STEM background, so if you’re a coder or somebody who has a mechanical background from the military, you might not have a college degree, but again, you’re probably as close to 0% unemployment as it gets with that skillset and expertise versus the college degree and that is something totally different.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So that helps orient things. Thank you. So then, now you mentioned something striking in our previous conversation was that you feel pretty comfortable just kind of moseying over to your boss and saying, “Hey, you know what? I’m getting kind of bored here. I’m looking for some different sorts of challenges. So I guess I’m going to look elsewhere, unless you’ve got some new kind of opportunities in this direction.” You shared that with me and said you’ve given that advice to others. And I found that striking, like “Whoa. That could take some cojones.” It’s like that might not play so well. But you’re saying that’s kind of where the marketplace is that you have a great deal of assuredness.

Josh Vesely
Yeah. I think that there is certainly the appropriate way to have conversations in that regard, but I think that the real… Listen. I’ve been with this organization for 11 years. And in that 11 years, I’ve had what I would probably consider nine different jobs. And the company has grown and changed in such a dynamic way that it’s allowed me to do that. But I always want to have an upfront agreement or an upfront contract, if you will, with anybody that’s leading me to say “I’m going to give you 100% of what I got,” because I don’t believe in the whole “I’m going to give you 110%, 120%.” I’m going to give you 100% of what I got, which is a lot. But when I feel like I’m in a place where I’m not as satisfied with the work or I’m just not as motivated, instead of me starting to give you 75% or 80% of what I got, why don’t I just come talk to you about that and see if there’s something else that I should be doing?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Sounds very reasonable and, in fact, superior for the person who is in the position of leading you.

Josh Vesely
Yeah. I mean, to me, it’s an empowerment thing for my leader to know exactly where I’m at, so they know they can always expect the most out of me. And if they don’t get that and I didn’t bring it up first, well, then that’s my fault. Then I got what’s coming at me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Okay. Fair enough. And so then, I guess underlying that then seems to be like a fundamental belief or expectation that there are good and worthy and suitable opportunities all around you.

Josh Vesely
A hundred percent. I mean, I hope that I can stay in the same field for as long as I live because the one thing that I can always count on is that as much as technology grows and we get to be more of a global culture, you’re always going to need people. You’re going to need people that can make the right decisions, that can take the technology and innovations and apply it in the right ways. And that’s not an easy thing to do in this day and age because what I see is information overload.
So I’ve got so much more information to look at, whether it’s through social media or the types of assessments that I can put people through. And so even if I can get the right person, well, then I’ve got all these things that I’ve got to look at to ensure that I’ve got a way to identify that person again or verify that I have the right person. And so what I’m doing in what I know isn’t going to be available to me no matter where I sit is just that: being able to orchestrate helping individuals find the right organizations and organizations find the right individuals.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so then, I’d like to get your take, then. Other than having a STEM background, what are some key things professionals can do to be in just a fantastic position to be able to be pretty candid with their bosses about where they’re sitting and to have just a cornucopia of options open to them? What are sort of the keys to the kingdom here of all this opportunity?

Josh Vesely
Well, I mean, for individuals, I think everybody has the ability to, first of all, be very clear about what they want, and what they want in their career and from their leadership and from themselves. So if I’m somebody who is out there and I’m looking for opportunity and Josh Vesely walks up to me and says “Well, great. What do you want?” and I can’t clearly articulate that in the first 30 seconds of answering the question, then I’ve got some homework to do.
But once I understand what I want, then the first thing I would do is I would evangelize that. I would tell my friends. I would tell my boss. I would tell my significant other, and I would just talk about it all the time. And I would understand what others have done to achieve that or to get to that specific role. And I think just doing those three things and being clear, evangelizing it, and studying others that have done something similar, the answers will become apparent. And if they don’t, then maybe you’ve got to go back to step one and be a little bit more clear about what you want.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that sounds pretty simple and straightforward in terms of getting that clarity. And so maybe can you share what might be some hang-ups in terms of folks… Why do folks do you think linger in the “Well, you know, I’m not really quite sure. It might be this. It might be that.”? What do you think holds folks back from arriving at that clarity with quickness and precision?

Josh Vesely
Besides self-doubt? Because this is what I do for a living, right? But I don’t know if most individuals would log on to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and look at the JOLT report and really just see for themselves, like “Hey, there’s a lot of opportunity. And gosh, there’s even more in engineering than there is in data entry,” and really take a proactive look even if they’re somewhat happy in their role, like what’s the company next door doing? Are they hiring? What’s going on in your local market? And so I think individuals’ fear of just exploring general opportunities is a lot of times what holds them back because it seems like a lot until you start doing a few of the simple things to just gain insights around what opportunities lie around you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, perfect. You say it seems like a lot. You mean there’s a bit of a self-doubt or sense of overwhelm like “Oh, how could I figure it out? There’s so many things out there.” And you’re saying, “No, no. Just take a couple of steps. Click around and see what you see, and bit by bit, you’ll get that insight.”

Josh Vesely
Yeah, absolutely. And I really don’t see that being as much of a challenge anymore with what I would probably say is the younger Gen X, certainly the millennials, and now we have Gen Z coming into the workforce population because what used to be a standard tenure or a career in an organization (and it might be 15 or 20 years), in the last 10 years, that’s become more like five to seven. And I think now we’re starting to see a trend of three years is typically the standard length of time that somebody is staying in a role, either before that role goes away because you just don’t need that person or that type of worker in the organization anymore, or that individual has chosen to leave to go on to their next thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, now let’s just switch gears a little bit and hear just about the world of working with recruiters. You know this game exceptionally well. So could you maybe orient folks who have never considered working with a recruiter to what’s the advantages? Why go with a middle man, middle woman when you can take the direct route?

Josh Vesely
Yeah. I mean, as cliché and corny as it might sound, I would just simply say… And a recruiter can be a corporate recruiter, too, right? It has nothing to do with an agency recruiter versus a recruiter at an organization, but it’s about who you know more than what you know. I firmly believe that most organizations that blindly post positions to their career site get more than enough applicants, but the validation of “I know Josh and I trust Josh, and Josh is telling me that I should hire Pete.” Okay. There’s something to be said about the validation of Josh because I know him about Pete versus “Pete applied to this job, and he looks okay, but I don’t really have any context around Pete.”
So I would say if you’re going to work with a recruiter, make sure that they know the hiring manager that they’re recruiting for or the organization that they’re recruiting for very well. And that’s why you should work with them is because they know things about that organization that can help them sell you if they think you’re a good fit for that company in that role.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so is it also true that, at times, working with a recruiter might even be a more direct route to getting an interview than applying right on the website or the job board or wherever the posting is?

Josh Vesely
Yes. I think that, again, depending on the recruiter that you’re working with, individuals should continue to apply for as many opportunities as they think they are qualified for. And this is something I want to be very clear about. So many times, we will actively use job advertising, job boards, and content marketing to get jobs out to individuals to apply to. But a lot of times, people will apply to things that they’re just totally unqualified for, and they’ll say, “If you just give me the interview, I can convince you that I’m the greatest clinical research scientist you’ve ever met. But yes, I’ve only done real estate my entire life.” It’s like, “Whoa. No, no. That doesn’t make any sense.” So the reason why I say that and the reason I’ll validate your statement of it being a more direct route is because the recruiter is going to validate that person, and sometimes that means saying no to them or saying “You’re not qualified for this position.”

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Josh Vesely
So I think that’s the case where many individuals want to be in that role, but they’re just not ready for it or that’s not the right role for them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Well, so you mentioned when it comes to working with recruiters, one thing you’d love for them to know is just the hiring manager is applicable for the position you’re after and the company you like. So what are some other things we should know about finding the appropriate recruiters and working with them effectively?

Josh Vesely
I think in our organization at least, you have to know the skillset that you’re working with, so we specifically have experts that are only dedicated towards life sciences and the industry of clinical research and pharmaceuticals, so they could tell very, very easily the story of the individual with that industry and with that skillset framed up very concisely for organizations to see and then bring into their process.
Same thing with technologies and being able to articulate somebody’s experience with both a behavioral and a technical write-up. So I think that’s the one thing that really sticks out to me with a good recruiter is they know the organization they’re recruiting for. They also know the skillset very well, and they can respond to questions of similar types of roles and individuals they have placed that would be comparable to what you’re looking for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So those are some telltale signs that we’ve got a winner when we’re talking with them. How do we find them in the first place?

Josh Vesely
Oh, gosh. I don’t know if there’s any shortage of recruiters out there. I mean, just to be clear, there’s 17,000…it’s close to almost 18,000 staffing firms out there in this country. So start with your own network. If you’re somebody who is on Facebook and you haven’t talked to your high school friends in a long time, somebody is probably a recruiter. So I’d start with who you know. And even if they’re not directly in the industry, asking other individuals where they’ve had a great experience working with recruiters will typically give you back a bunch of responses that you can follow up on.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Certainly. So you’re saying use your own network. There’s not so much a directory or a resource or a landing page you’d point us to?

Josh Vesely
Well, I’d say come to Randstad first and foremost.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure.

Josh Vesely
But the landing page is Google. I mean, you could go on and say “recruiters in XYZ industry,” and it could be literally anything, like offshore oil and gas drilling. And there are firms that just specialize in that. So research has become very simple in terms of finding out who to work for. And then you take the names of those companies and you go to websites like Kununu or Glassdoor or Indeed, and you can find out what are people saying about these companies and what are their experiences in working with them. So you don’t have to do a whole lot of digging around to find out who are the companies and what are people saying about them and what are their ratings.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Sure thing. So now, I’d love to hear, then. It sounds like a lot of the things you’re saying are just sort of some practical, wise, common sense things we should do. Do you have any sort of secrets, strategies, tips, tricks, tactics when it comes to seeking out and finding great opportunities, maybe some things that are overlooked by the typical job hunter?

Josh Vesely
I don’t think it’s a bad thing to go for… What I would say is going for the no. Like if you are a certain way, if your behavior, your personality is a certain way, and you get really emotionally charged, and you like to get excited about things, and you’re going to look for opportunities, I would say be very open and honest and almost blunt about who you are with your recruiter, with the organizations you’re looking to work with, because there’s nothing worse than going into a role and going through a very long and lengthy process to meet a bunch of people and have yourself asked questions over many rounds of interviews, and then you get in and you’re like, “Man, I can’t really be myself here.”
So I think that one of the things that you’ll find refreshing is if you’re just yourself and every bit of your personality, and you just network the hell out of that, there’s going to be a lot of organizations that get turned off and there’s going to be a lot of organizations and people that are attracted to that because they’re looking for that. The other thing I would say to most individuals is don’t consider just a traditional job. I think the biggest shift we’ve seen in the last few years is that you can be an independent contractor. You could set up your own business and just consult. You can be a freelancer and just do odds and ends types of projects. You could certainly be a contractor or a temporary employee, and you could be a full time employee. So there’s all these different options and avenues to go work for organizations. It’s not like you need to go be a 9 to 5 full time employee and that’s the only option you have open to you these days. It’s totally open to experimentation.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Well, Josh, I want to make sure, while I’ve got you here, I want to tackle a very tricky question that shows up in the recruiting cycle. And it seems like there’s conflicting opinions and much consternation on it, so I want to get your pro take on it. If someone is applying for a job and they’re going through the application and/or some of the preliminary early stage interviews and they hit that question, “Oh, what’s your current salary?” what is the optimal way to respond, particularly if you think, “Well, my current salary is inadequate and below what I should be making. That’s why I’m looking for a change.”? How do you play that game?

Josh Vesely
So this is on an application?

Pete Mockaitis
It could be on an application or it could be a live conversation in the early stages of recruiting.

Josh Vesely
Yeah. So two different thoughts on that. I think in an application, it’s something to be discussed in an interview, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Mm-hm.

Josh Vesely
But if you’re at the very early stages of the process, then I think it’s too early to have that discussion. And what I would probably ask that person to say is “I’m more than happy to answer that question when you feel like I’m the right fit for the position. But if you don’t mind me asking, there must be some sort of a range that you’re looking to fill this position with. So if you don’t mind, can you share that range just so before we move any further, I can tell you whether or not I’m comfortable within that range for what I’m looking for?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I like it. It’s very real. It’s honest. And so you’re saying that in an application setting…or I guess that would be the live conversation if you’re expecting a response right there on the spot. Is that what you’re envisioning the context there?

Josh Vesely
Yeah. I mean, well, you also have to be self-aware, right? So if you know you’re at the high end of the spectrum for what you do, then there’s also a part of me that says, “Listen. I know I’m at the high end of the spectrum for what I do. But before we get into the numbers and then having that conversation…” But if it’s something where you really don’t know, like maybe you’re earlier in your career or you haven’t done enough research on that organization, then I think it’s just too early because, first of all, you don’t know enough about the organization and know whether or not it’s a fit for you, and they certainly don’t know enough for you because they’re not making you a job offer at that point. Then I think putting it off, but at least getting some guard rails to make sure that everybody is on the same page and reducing what we might call mutual mystification is more than fair.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I dig it. Well, Josh, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Josh Vesely
I think individuals far and away are creating their own path. So I don’t find too many folks (and some that are a little bit earlier in their career, yes) that are struggling to really get outside of the traditional lines of employment and jobs and things like that. So I think as you are exploring opportunities in your career and wondering what’s possible, having discussions with different folks that are in the same field but maybe in a different context or relationship from an employment perspective. So if you’re a full time employee and you’re thinking about consulting, go talk to a bunch of consultants. Or if you’re a consultant and you’re thinking about a full time role, I think there’s a lot of avenues to go have open, honest communication. And there’s so much information that’s just available, whether it’s, again, on employer rating sites or even just information that’s available from salary websites and information that people have this great ability to go out there and explore. So I advocate that a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something that you find inspiring?

Josh Vesely
Well, Joe Maddon became general manager for the Cubs a few years ago, and one of the great things that he said is “We’re just going to do simple better.” He also said, “Try not to suck.” So I think those two go hand in hand because a lot of the times, we just overcomplicate everything because there’s so much information and there’s so much technology and things that we could do or decision points that we could change. And it’s like, “Well, I’m just going to give it my best shot. And if I don’t suck, then I feel okay about it. And hopefully through that process, I can make it really simple for somebody to work with me, for me, or lead me. And that would be kind of my ultimate goal every day when I lay my head down at the end of the night.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And how about a favorite book?

Josh Vesely
I’m all over the place with books. I love to actually just listen to books on Audible because I travel a lot and it’s just easier for me to plug in some headphones and listen. There’s a really good book called “Mindset” that I read not too long ago. So I’d say that it’s not necessarily my favorite, but it’s a recent favorite of mine.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, absolutely. It’s a powerful one. And how about a favorite habit, a personal practice of yours?

Josh Vesely
Oh, gosh. I’m not good with habits. I tend to wake up early and go to bed late. But I don’t know if that’s a habit that I want to necessarily advocate to others. There’s another fairly significant marketing leader out there, Gary Vee. I’m sure you’ve heard of Gary Vee before.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Josh Vesely
But he always talks about winning the genetic lottery and being born a human being and in the U.S. and the fact that, at some point, we’re all going to die. And so I think mine is just getting as many hours in the day and being alive during those hours as possible. But I try to work out sometimes. I try to read as much as I can and just be engaged with folks. But I’m probably not as habitual about those things as I am just spending as much hours awake as I can and being alive.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a particular nugget that you share, any articulation of one of your messages or beliefs or tidbits that really seems to resonate with folks? They nod their heads. They take notes at Josh’s brilliance.

Josh Vesely
I don’t know. I mean, I think something I’ve learned the hard way, and I’m by no means an expert in, is the ability to just take a step back and say, “I don’t know everything.” And the power of a network is incredibly important not from the perspective of being able to lean on others to make connections and accomplish things, but from a knowledge standpoint, it’s too much in this day and age for a leader of any level to try to know everything. So I really try to surround myself or be connected to those that know more than I do in certain areas, so I don’t have to. And I think individuals that try to be the master of everything end up being the master of nothing. So I encourage people to really take a look at their networks, grow them, but grow them in the areas that they’re weakest, so they don’t feel like they have to improve in something that’s going to be a really long, hard call for them to improve in.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Josh Vesely
I’d point them to LinkedIn to connect with me. And if that doesn’t work for whatever reason, I would say reach out to any local Randstad office and ask them to connect you with Josh Vesely.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Do you have a final call to action or challenge for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Josh Vesely
Don’t be afraid to leave something that you hate doing. I think people have a fear of leaping from something that feels comfortable because of the unknown. But quickly you will find that the unknown could be very clearly understood if you do some research, if you do some outreach. And a little bit of comfort should go a long way because there’s too much opportunity out there for folks to try to accomplish things. And people are needed everywhere for you to settle for something that just doesn’t make you happy.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Josh, thank you so much for this. Fantastic perspectives. Much appreciated. Good luck with all you’re up to.

Josh Vesely
Pete, thanks so much, and hope you have a great rest of your day.