253: How to Speak Out…Without a Freak Out with Matthew Abrahams

Pete Mockaitis
Matt, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Matthew Abrahams
Thank you. Really excited to have this conversation, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, me, too. And I was also intrigued to learn, as I was learning a bit about you, that you have a test coming up for your fifth-degree blackbelt. Now, help me think through this, sometimes like with degrees, more is higher or more is lesser, like a first-degree burn or third-degree burn, business first class. And so, what does it mean, first of all?

Matthew Abrahams
It means I’ve been doing this for a really long time is what it means.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, all right.

Matthew Abrahams
So, in this case, the higher the rank it means the more experience you have and, in theory, the more expertise you have. But as I go through this readiness process, I’m being challenged on that expertise part for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, how does one pass a fifth-degree blackbelt test? What goes down during it?

Matthew Abrahams
Well, I think it means I can walk out of the room and not know. There are several things that I’m expected to be able to do both physically and, at this level, some mental stuff as well in terms of just being able to focus and manage multiple distracting things at the same time. So, it’s a grueling process but I love it and, for me, the martial arts have always helped me center myself. And what I learned inside the dojos seem to translate into my life, and sometimes it goes the other direction as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s cool. So, I’m intrigued, so what physical tasks are asked of you? Is it like crushing ten boards? Or what is it?

Matthew Abrahams
Well, in my earlier days that was important but as I’ve gotten older it’s really a combination of movements that you need to do that are quite lengthy, things are formed together, movements are formed together into things that are called katas, or forms that I have to deliver, and present several of those in terms of very specific requirements. And then some physical sparring and working with other individuals to demonstrate the ability to protect myself, and that can be pretty grueling as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, have you ever had to use these skills under high-stakes circumstances?

Matthew Abrahams
I use them on a daily basis in terms of the ability to focus and feel confident in my ability. If you’re asking if I ever had to physically use these, the answer is no. There’d been some times where I’ve used my mouth instead of my fists to get out of some tricky situations but I attribute that to what I do for a job but also what I’ve learned in the martial arts.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, awesome. Cool. Well, I want to talk about what you do for a job, and so you’ve got a recent book Speaking Up Without Freaking Out which is a great title. So, tell us, what is that about and what is sort of distinctive about it?

Matthew Abrahams
Well, thank you for the opportunity to chat about it. So, the book is really designed to help people feel more comfortable and confident when they present, and to deliver presentations that are more compelling in nature. So, I, for years, was looking for a source to send my students and the people I consulted with to find techniques that could help them feel more comfortable and confident when presenting.

Most of us, 85% of us, research says, get nervous in high-stakes speaking situations, and there’s really no one stop-shop for learning techniques that were academically verified beyond practice, breathe deeply, and just do it. I call that the PB&J approach. So, after being frustrated for a long time, I went out and actually did some research, and pulled forward research I had done in graduate school and created this book which, really, is a very short book that’s designed for a student to read in a course of a week, or a business professional to read when he or she gets on a plane in San Francisco flying to New York to deliver a big presentation.

So, it’s designed really to help people get very practical skills to help them be better and more confident in their speaking.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, just to be clear, if they were flying from San Francisco to Chicago, where I am, they wouldn’t quite have enough time?

Matthew Abrahams
They could get through the whole book but maybe not the appendices. How’s that?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Fair enough. Fair enough. That works. I just want to remind the world that we’re here, that we matter.

Matthew Abrahams
Absolutely. I was just recently in Chicago, had a great time. Took my kids, we made up our own Ferris Bueller’s Day Off tour and saw the sights. It’s fun.

Pete Mockaitis
That is good. Well, so now, I’m so intrigued. Now, I have read a number of books that have good solid advice about formulating and delivering speeches. I’m thinking about Dr. Nick Morgan’s work in particular Give Your Speech, Change The World, and we had him on back in the day. Awesome dude, awesome guest.

And so, but you’re saying that you zeroed in right upon the nerves matter – and Nick Morgan is 41, if anyone is curious, episode 41 – but you’re talking specifically about the anxious nervousness dimension. And so, can you share maybe some of your big findings that we won’t find in many other sources?

Matthew Abrahams
Well, thanks for asking, and Nick is a great guy. I’ve actually had him guest speak in my Stanford Business School class. A sharp guy and he does really, really good work. The whole effort I’ve put together here around speaking out without freaking out is driven by my students who, they would leave my classes years ago, saying, “This is all great stuff. We’ve learned how to communicate strategically and persuasively, but we’re still nervous about it.”

And that used to eat at me that we have all these tools but people weren’t feeling that they were equipped to use them because anxiety got in the way. So, this was a labor of love but also of very practical application for my students and the people I consult with. So, in my work, what I find is you have to attack anxiety with a two-pronged approach. You have to look at both the symptoms, and many of us experience many symptoms around speaking anxiety and then, also, the sources, what causes those.

So, we spent time talking in my workshops and my classes and my book about how to manage both symptoms and sources, and I believe that’s a different approach than I found elsewhere and people really resonate with it and it helps them get better. Ultimately, my goal is that everybody creates what I call an anxiety management plan, an AMP, so they get amped up about communicating rather than feel burdened by the pressures of communicating.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I like that. So, in an anxiety management plan, what would be some of the most critical components to round it out?

Matthew Abrahams
Great. So, I’ll share some with you. So, symptomatically a lot of things happen to us physically and mentally when we get nervous around speaking. For example, if you’re like me you might blush or perspire a lot, other people shake, other people’s voice gets quivery; those are symptoms. And then for others, the source of anxiety has to do, for example, with feeling like you’re under the spotlight and everybody is evaluating you.

So, in an anxiety management plan, I have some very specific techniques that I can use for myself when I am getting up ready to speak. So, for example, when I know that I will be perspiring or perhaps blushing, simply holding something cold in the palm of your hand before you present can actually reduce your core body temperature which is really the cause of that perspiration and blushing.

It’s like when you have a fever and you put a cold compress on your forehead and that reduces your temperature. The palms of your hand work the same way, and I bet you, you in Chicago, even this week, have done this on a cold morning perhaps holding a warm cup of coffee or tea, you felt that it warms you up. We can work that in reverse, holding something cold reduces the blushing and the sweating. So, that’s part of my anxiety management plan that deals with the symptoms.

For the source of me feeling evaluated, there’s several things I can do. One that I really enjoy doing, and I encourage everybody to do, when you start a presentation, a webinar, whatever, start with some kind of interactive activity. It serves not only to get your audience engaged but it actually distracts them from focusing on you.

And in that moment of distraction, you can take a deep breath, you can look around the room and find friendly faces, there’s lots you can do, so take a poll, ask a question, show a short video. All of that serves to get your audience engaged and take their focus away from evaluating you and be on the task that they’re working on.

So, that’s an example of what an anxiety management plan is, a set of techniques that address both symptoms and sources to help you feel better.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And I really connect with that idea of giving folks something else to do because it kind of lets you take a breath such that, and say, “Okay, that’s the crowd. I’m right in front of them.” It sounds like you’re just getting sort of acclimated, like, “There they are. Here I am.” Things are happening without you being on the spotlight with the pressure to do something. Like, they’re talking amongst themselves or watching the video so that’s good.

Matthew Abrahams
That’s right. And the other thing I would just add to that is when they come back after doing whatever that task is, your role is different. You’re not the presenter but you’re the facilitator now of the experience that everybody just shared. And for many of us, being in that facilitator role, even for a brief bit, makes us feel more comfortable, so it’s an on-ramp to the presenting piece.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, fantastic. And I know you were just offering one example as a tip, but I got to go there. When it comes to the holding something cold, is it beneficial to hold it in anywhere particular? Like, could you strap a frozen gel pack to your back, or your thigh, or your…?

Matthew Abrahams
No, it’s very specific to the palms of your hands.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Matthew Abrahams
So, the palms of the hands are much like the back of the neck and the forehead are temperature control setting places for the body. So, think of them as thermostats. And, in fact, the research that I did to find this particular technique comes from athletics. One of the things that degrades athletic performance is the athlete gets overheated.

So, if there’s a way you can cool down while you’re doing your sport, you’ll actually be able to persist longer. And so, that got me thinking, “Well, a lot of athletes, what they’ll do is they’ll hold something cold in their hands, and we can do the same in speaking.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. To recap, we got the palm, the neck, and where?

Matthew Abrahams
The forehead.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Palms, neck, forehead.

Matthew Abrahams
But you’re not going to strap an ice pack to your head, Pete, when you’re giving a presentation, but you could hold a glass of water before you start speaking.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you could have a subtle something on the back of your neck, you know, if you’re not turning.

Matthew Abrahams
Well, with all the high-tech microphones and stuff, I would worry about shorting out, and that’s electrocuting and stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, man, there’s a nightmare that we’ve just planted in everyone’s psyche. Oh, boy. Okay. And so, then, now more so than the wrist because I’ve seen that they’ve even made some high-tech device that kind of chills your wrist. Do we count that as part of the palm or is that separate and different?

Matthew Abrahams
I didn’t know we were doing anatomy here, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
I would go there, Matt.

Matthew Abrahams
But if people can find the tool that works for them, and it’s on their wrists, I’m totally cool with it. But what I’m hoping people would do is find some things they can do to help reduce some of the physical symptoms that they feel but also that they show to others. And it’s typically easier, I think, to hold a cold bottle of water or a cold glass of water than some high-tech gizmo on your wrist. But if that gizmo works, go for it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. Yes. So, those are a couple of examples then in terms of handling a source and the symptoms. So, I’d love it if you could share with us sort of like the 80-20 or the greatest hits in terms of common sources of anxiety and pro tip solutions to address them. And then, after you hit the sources, let’s hit some more of the symptoms.

Matthew Abrahams
Sure thing. I’ll give you one more of each, and if you want more I’ll give you more. One of the things that makes people very anxious has to do with, and this is a source, is that we’re worried about the potential negative future consequences of what we’re doing. Let me break that down. When you give a presentation you have a goal in mind.

If you’re one of the entrepreneurs I coach or teach, you want funding or advice. If you’re one of my students, you want a good grade. If you’re a manager in an organization, you’re worried about not getting the headcount or the support for your task at hand. If you’re a community member, you might have a strong position you’re bringing up at some local governmental event, and you’re afraid people won’t hear you.

So, what makes us nervous is that we won’t succeed in the goal we’re trying to achieve, so we’re worried about a potential outcome, negative outcomes that’s in the future. A great way to counteract that is to become very present-oriented, in the moment. You and others might have heard of this notion of flow experience or wrapped attention. It’s when you’re in the immediate present. And when you’re in the immediate present you are not worried about the potential negative future outcomes.

And there are lots of things presenters/communicators can do to get themselves in the present moment. Everything from taking a walk around the building, moving your body gets you out of your head, you can count backwards from a very complicated number, so start at a hundred and count backwards by 17s, that’s challenging. It forces you to be in the present moment.

Listen to a song or a playlist like athletes do, that gets you in the present moment. Or do what I do. My favorite way to get present-oriented is to say tongue twisters. The only way to say a tongue twister right it to be immediately focused on what you’re saying. So, the source has to do with worrying about potential negative future outcomes, and the way to manage it is to become present-oriented, and that helps a lot of people.

Now, in terms of other symptoms that people experience, a lot of people get shaky before they speak. That’s the adrenaline from the fight or flight response that’s coursing through our bodies. And if you start your communication with big broad gestures, nothing that looks over-theatrical but just big gestures, like, “Welcome, people,” and extend both your arms as if you’re welcoming somebody into your home.

By using those big muscles you actually allow that adrenaline to dissipate, and you stop shaking as much as you were. So, that’s a symptomatic relief, whereas where I stated before about becoming present-oriented, it relieves a particular source of anxiety.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, got you. Thank you. Well, so now, we talk about big sweeping gestures, I got to get your take on power posing. What do you think?

Matthew Abrahams
So, power posing is really, really interesting stuff and, in fact, Amy Cuddy, who’s been the biggest champion of that, has the third most popular TED Talk ever talking about it. There is some recent debate in terms of how it actually works and its efficacy, but I’ve seen it work with many people I’ve coached.

So, just to review, power posing is this notion of taking a big balanced still stance, Amy Cuddy refers to the Superman or the Wonder Woman pose, with your hands on your hips, and your legs splayed out a little bit. And the idea is that when you take a big stance, not only does your audience see you as more confident, but you yourself begin to feel more confident because you’re releasing testosterone and other hormones that make you feel that way.

So, I’m a proponent of that. Again, you don’t do that necessarily in front of the audience. You might do that in the privacy of a bathroom stall or cubicle or office, but that can really help. If nothing else, it helps ground you and helps you focus on what you’re about to do, and there’s evidence that that helps people feel more confident too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very cool. Well, so then, I’d like to maybe zoom out a little bit. We talked about having the anxiety management plan associated with sort of right there, sort of in the heat of the moment, or just before the moment. I’d like to maybe go back a tiny little bit farther in terms of if folks just have some negative or disempowering self-defeating beliefs or habits or behavior that you see that are problematic and troublesome. What are some of those things that we can stop doing or start doing sort of well in advance of the clutch moment in order to perform well?

Matthew Abrahams
Let me share two answers in response to that. The first it has to do with procrastination. A lot of people procrastinate around presenting because it makes them feel bad, it makes them nervous, so they think, “Why should I feel nervous in preparing and worrying about this presentation? So, I’m just not going to do it.” And, clearly, that sets them up for failure or at least mediocrity.

One of the problems of procrastination is it has a built-in reinforcement. If you procrastinate and then give a poor presentation or run a poor meeting you can always say to yourself, “Well, if I just would’ve spent more time, it would’ve gone better,” so it builds in this validation of it. So, the best thing to do when it comes to managing procrastination is to publicly commit to a schedule, and then build in rewards for yourself as you achieve those milestones.

So, you would create a plan for yourself and publicly commit to it. That could be posting it on your Instagram feed. It could be putting it on the family refrigerator, or posting it in your cube at work so other people can see it. And that public commitment tends to lead people to achieve what’s on the list, and then reward yourself.

So, as you succeed in those steps, give yourself some kind of reward, perhaps it’s listening to your favorite podcast, or perhaps it’s eating a bit of a chocolate chip cookie, or whatever. But as you achieve those steps, reward yourself and that makes it self-reinforcing in a positive direction. So, one bad habit people have is procrastination, and the way to manage it is public commitment and to reward or reinforce when you succeed.

The other thing that people tend to do is they tend to envision communication as performance. I bet you your listeners, and, Pete, yourself, you’ve probably done one of these four things. You’ve probably done some acting, singing, dancing or played a sport, and most of the people listening in have done one or more of those.

And in each one of those activities, it is performance-based. There’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. If you’re an actor and you misspeak your line in the wrong way at the wrong time, you screwed up, you did it wrong. If you’re an athlete, and you don’t do what your sport requires at the right time or the right way, you’ve done it wrong. In fact, some sports keep track of the mistakes you make.

We bring that same mentality, that same approach to communication, to presenting. We feel like there’s one right way to do it. I’ve been doing this work for a long, long time, over two decades, and I’m here to tell you and everybody listening, there is no right way to communicate. There are better ways and worse ways. So, if we can lose that view of communication and presenting as performance, it can actually help us.

And one great way to do it is to see communication not as performing but as conversation. Most people are not nervous when they converse. If you can envision your speaking as a conversation it can really help. So, procrastination and this performance anxiety really do weigh heavy on people and negatively influence their ability to communicate.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, performance anxiety, that’s intriguing. So, you’re saying that that will spiral into creating more anxiety because it’s like, “I have to do it this precise way like my favorite TED Talker does.”

Matthew Abrahams
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed. And so, that’s what’s intriguing there is that you say there are better ways and there are worse ways, and I think that it’s sort of like, I guess, there are some universals and then there are some pieces that work better for some audiences instead of others. And so, I guess, I’m thinking there are some levels of black and white, I would say, and lots and lots of grey. Would you agree with that? Would you say, “No, there’s no black and white, Pete”?

Matthew Abrahams
I would frame it differently. I would say that there’s some fundamentals that everybody needs to learn. And these foundational pieces of advice or guidance hold true in a vast majority of situations. And then once we understand those fundamentals, it’s all about choice. It’s about choosing to comply with them, or conform with them, or deviate from them, but what I’ve seen in my work, in my teaching and in my consulting, is that people often communicate out of habit and not out of choice.

So, what I see my job being is really helping people understand what these foundational ideas are and then helping them make choices based on their goal and the audience they’re speaking to and the modality they’re communicating through. Is it a webinar versus in person, etcetera? So, if we’re saying the same thing, and I fully agree with you. If what I said is slightly different then perhaps I disagree with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yes, I think we’re on the same page there, and I’m buying that. And it’s intriguing, I’m thinking back to we had Anshul Bhagi in Episode 24, and he helped co-create Ummo, this voice-coaching app which is pretty cool. And so, he was saying that vocal pauses can be a deliberate choice. For instance, I thought that was really intriguing in that if a person has zero vocal pauses, the uhhs, ohhs, uhms, then that can almost seem freakish and unnatural and rehearsed and robotic.

Like, “You’re not a real person, and we’re not really having a conversation because real people don’t talk the way you’re talking right now, free of a single uhm to be had.” Which I thought was pretty intriguing because in Toastmasters and other context, it’s like, “Oh, we count them and we want to eliminate them.” But that’s a place where there is room for deviance and maybe a sweet spot. I just did one. Hopefully, that seemed natural.

Matthew Abrahams
You seem so natural, Pete. It’s amazing. We know now that you’re not a robot. That’s good.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m not a robot. Cool. So, I dig that. And then, understood. But just knowing that there’s a wide latitude of right and good I think is so handy. And I’ve seen that when I’ve coached, say, people who are prepping for strategy consulting firm case interviews.

Matthew Abrahams
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’ve seen sort of a similar view in terms of they get so freaked out, “I want to do it just perfectly because this is my career dream.” And I say, “Well, really? We’re sort of assessing how well you think and communicate, and there are many right ways to do that, and there are better ways and there are worse ways, and in over-fixating on using ‘perfect’ structure or framework to start the interview, you’re not going to do so well because you freak yourself out and don’t let your natural brain do its thing.”

Matthew Abrahams
Absolutely. There’s a wonderful saying from the world of improvisation that I like to share with people, and I do this with my MBA students at Stanford, and I suck the air out of a room when I say it. But in improv they have this wonderful saying, “Dare to be dull.” And I get up in front of a bunch of Stanford MBAs and proclaim that, and they’re shocked because they’ve never heard that in their life.

But the motivation behind that statement is we put so much pressure on ourselves to be great that we actually preclude ourselves from actually achieving greatness. And if we just target getting the job done, just focus on the task at hand, that frees up all of those cognitive resources we’re investing in doing it right and doing it great to actually achieve that greatness.

So, I love this notion of dare to be dull. Do what’s needed, get it done, and when you put yourself in that mindset you can actually then achieve great things.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Good. Well, now, let’s get your view of maybe you are feeling nervous but you just don’t want other people to know it. So, are there any particular sort of non-verbal things that one can do to seem like you are confident and feeling awesome?

Matthew Abrahams
There are several things we can do to portray confidence even if we’re not feeling that way. So, let me suggest a few and we’ll start at the bottom of the body and work our way up and, don’t worry, we’ll skip certain parts. But one of the big signs that signals anxiety is random or spurious movement; rocking, swaying, shaking.

And so, it’s all about being still. So, it has to do with your foot position very simply. A lot of people, when they stand to speak, they rock or sway side to side. In fact, it’s very self-soothing. You know how little kids suck their thumbs? Adults sway side to side to help calm themselves down. And if you and your listeners don’t believe that’s true, I challenge you to go to the Department of Motor Vehicles or the Post Office when it’s very busy and everybody is frustrated being there, you’ll see them all swaying and perhaps swearing under their breath.

It’s a way that we calm ourselves down. But when somebody sees you swaying and rocking and shifting, they see you as somebody who’s nervous, who doesn’t want to be there, who’s very uncomfortable. So, if you can still yourself, and we do this in many ways, by lining our body up properly. If you put your feet so they’re parallel underneath your shoulders, rather than splayed out to the side like many of us stand, it actually roots you to the ground better and you actually will sway less. So, one thing we can do is really still our bodies.

The other thing that we need to do is, when it comes to our gesturing, we need to make sure that we have our arms in an open position rather than crossed in front of our chest or up high with our elbows pinned close to our body. That looks very defensive. Nervous people make themselves very defensive. If you watch your most favorite keynote presenter, a TED Talk speaker, whomever, you’ll see that their gestures are expanded and that they’re very open, and that’s a way of signaling confidence.

And then, finally, it has to do with eye contact. Our eyes dart around a lot when we’re nervous. There’s been some research that says one of the thing we’re looking for is exits so if things go bad we know how to get out. But we need to focus our eyes, and I don’t mean stare, and I don’t mean glare, but if your eyes dart around a lot, if there’s a way you can slow them down and focus on a few other people in the room or even a few quadrants of the room, if you look at the room and divide it into quadrants, look in the back corner or in the front center, whatever, that can help us well.

So, those are some things that we can do so that we appear more confident. Confident people do those things. They stand in a balanced way without spurious movements, they gesture in an open fashion rather than closed, and their eye contact is connective rather than disjointed and distracting.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Now, I want to talk about eye contact because this gets so tricky, I think, for folks, and I have heard a number of recommendations associated with you want to make X seconds or half a sentence or a full sentence of eye contact with a person, and then move on. And so, if you’re thinking about, well, maybe take two contexts.

One, a big old presentation with 80 people in the room and, two, sort of a more intimate conference room with eight people in the room, and you’re presenting. What would be your take on, is there an optimal amount of eye contact to make with the person before moving on? Or how do you think about doing that just right?

Matthew Abrahams
This is the second most prevalent question I get asked.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, intriguing. Well, you know the question I’m asking next, but let’s hear the answer first.

Matthew Abrahams
Yeah, yeah, well, I set myself up for that. So, I have a completely unsatisfactory answer for you, Pete, and I’m really sorry. But the answer is this, you want to look long enough but not too long.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, perfect.

Matthew Abrahams
Because it really depends. It really depends. When you look at somebody too long, you know; they turn away, they blush. Others in the room might start shifting and moving because you’re not paying attention to them. It’s more art than science. I work with a lot of technologists, a lot of scientists, and they want me to say, “Look at people for 1.3 milliseconds each, and then you’ve done your job.” And it’s not that way.

In a smaller venue, you should look at as many as the people as you can in a non-pattern way. I am not a big fan of the one-phrase one-person mentality because your phrases aren’t all of equal length and then it becomes patterned and your keys become rhythmic because you’re shifting from one person to the next. That’s not how we converse.

In a larger venue, this quadrant idea I mentioned earlier works best. So, I don’t look at everybody in a particular region or quadrant; I look at one or two people. But by virtue, in a larger room, of looking at everybody on one corner, or in front of me, it gives everybody that love. It’s connective with everybody in that area.

So, the idea is to make it as natural as possible. If you would watch how people, and there are people who do this with retinal scanning behavior or machines, watch people at conversations. It’s not patterned, it’s not equal time. We’re trying to mimic that kind of behavior. So, I wish I had better, more specific advice, but the best thing to do is to not be patterned and to really try to connect and go with the feeling you get when you look at somebody and you feel like, “Okay, I’ve made that connection. Now I’ll move on.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, not as satisfactory, I’m with you. I like that it’s paradigm shifting, in that sense it is satisfactory. But in terms of pinning it down to a number, yeah, I’m with you there that it’s not as satisfactory because there is no perfect prescription. Nonetheless, if I could press you a bit, if you would say, “Hey, Pete, most of the time the eye contact amount is probably going to be more than X sentences or words and less than Y sentences or words. Very roughly most of the time exceptions abound.” What would those numbers be?

Matthew Abrahams
I’m not going to let you put me in a corner, Pete, because I don’t know those numbers, and I don’t know that anybody does. What I will tell you from research is, and this is in an interpersonal setting and you can extrapolate perhaps to larger venues. In an interpersonal setting, when you and I are speaking face-to-face, as the speaker, I look at you roughly 40% of the time. You, as the listener, are expected to look at me roughly 60% of the time.

So, that is to say, if you are listening to me, and we’re face-to-face, and I don’t look at you for at least 40% of the time that we are talking, you will think I am distracted and not connected to you. Similarly, while I am speaking, I am monitoring, you’re looking at me. If you’re not looking at me roughly 60% of the time then I’m going to feel that you’re not listening and we’re no connected.

So, those are numbers that have been borne out in research and I’m happy to share with you. How that translates into when you’re in an audience is two-fold. One, you don’t need to be looking at your audience and staring at people 100% of the time. However, you will need to do it more than 40% just because you’re not one-to-one face-to-face. Hope that helps. I can’t tell you the number of sentences or words to speak while looking.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, no, it’s all good. I love that you’re a man of integrity holding to the truth. And so, well, here’s, I guess, in my world that’s kind of – I just want to get your reading while I have you here – it tends to be somewhere between, for me, half to one and a half sentences, it just feels about right in terms of it might be. And so, that works for me.

It’s interesting because, you’re right, I think it really does vary even person by person in the audience in terms of how much eye contact they can handle, in terms of like three seconds freak some people out, like, “Whoa, dude.” And then, for others, it’s almost like you’re disappointing them when you move on so soon. And so, I mean, I know I played hardball trying to pin you some numbers but I’m right with you in that I see a whole lot of variability.

Matthew Abrahams
Right. And what I have found is if you give people heuristics like that, they end up fixating on the number of words they’re speaking and they’re not worried about, they’re not actually connecting to the audience, so I’m not a big fan of 30 seconds per slide, two sentences per person, because what you get, especially with very technical scientifically-oriented people, is they’re counting those things, and when they’re counting they’re not connecting, and they’re worse off than had they just done what came naturally.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Well, I love that we went there. It’s such a depth. That’s cool. I don’t get to do this with very many people in very many context, and maybe you don’t either because of the soundbite culture we live in, so I enjoyed that detour. Hope you did as well.

Matthew Abrahams
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I’ve got to ask, what’s the number one question you’re asked most often?

Matthew Abrahams
What do I do with my hands? That’s the number one question.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, what do you do?

Matthew Abrahams
So, let me give two bits of advice – what to do with your hands when you’re not using them, and then what to do when you are using them. So, when you’re not using your hands, we want to see them. We don’t want them in our pockets, we don’t want them behind our back. If we’re sitting at a table, we want them on the table not under the table.

But simply down by your sides as you would stand perhaps, if you went to the tailor and they’re trying fit a jacket on you, not when you splay your hands out like a T, the letter T. But when they’re down by the sides, that’s a great relaxed position and it’s a very confident position because you’re very open.

The other place where people feel most comfortable is just lightly clasping your hands in front of your abdomen, right in front of your belly button, just loose and low, that’s fine. We don’t want to go below the belt. That turns into what I call figgly thing and that makes you look a little nervous and uncomfortable. So, those are two great places to rest your hands when you’re not using them; down by your sides or right in front of your belly button.

When you gesture, the rules are really simple; gesture beyond your shoulders. A lot of us when we gesture, we gesture with our elbows tight to our body, and our hands in front of our chest. We look like T-rex dinosaurs and we look very defensive. If you can extend your arms just a little bit, just beyond your shoulders with the palms facing your audience, you look much more open.

And then the other gesture is when you refer to your audience, the people you’re talking about. Do a forward extension towards them. When you say words like us, you, we. Having your hands extended forward really makes you look like you’re connecting with and talking to your audience. So, again, I’m about frameworks and fundamentals. I’m not about scripting a gesture here or there because it looks artificial and, again, it distracts you from connecting with your audience if you have to think, “On this word I must move my hand in this way.”

Pete Mockaitis
Totally.

Matthew Abrahams
That’s the advice I give to people, and people really grasp onto it and begin making decisions that show their body posture as being more open and confident.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s great. And what’s interesting for me is I notice when you put out those two postures to go with, I find that I most naturally put my hands in front of my abdomen, and in a way it really is kind of soothing. And I don’t know if there’s some primordial stuff about that being a sensitive part of my body or an attack might get me hurt or what.

So, I do find that more soothing. Whereas on the sides is just a little bit more nervous when you’re staring down hundreds of people. And so, I don’t know where I heard this but I heard that if you have anything like a lectern, podium – I always get them mixed up and so the rest of the world – or your hands in front of your midsection, then that creates a bit of maybe a subconscious signaling of protection or kind of there’s a barrier in between audience and communicator.

Do you buy that? And do you think like the other stance of hands to the sides is, if you could muster it, superior to hands in front of your abdomen?

Matthew Abrahams
So, I think either can accomplish the goal of helping you look confident and helping many people be comfortable. I believe that when your hands are down by the side, you’re actually more exposed. And, by virtue of being more exposed, or willing to be more exposed, in front of others, you actually display more confidence so that’s why I don’t like lecterns, podiums because they act as a shield for you.

Confident speakers are willing to stand in front of an audience with their arms down. Now, I’m not saying you stand there rigidly for a long period of time, but if you’re being introduced, or if somebody is asking you a question, and you’re waiting for that question to come in, placing those arms down by the side just make you look so confident.

That said, putting the hands in front of the abdomen, personally I don’t feel diminishes your confidence that much. I know of no research that focuses on the relative difference between these two postures. These are usually the go-to postures. They are recommended instead of being defensive or behind a lectern and podium.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Matt, this is so much good detailed stuff. Tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Matthew Abrahams
So, just a couple things. We’ve talked a lot about nerves, and we’ve talked a lot about what we can do. I’d like to just mention something that is very, very critical. And that is, as a communicator, your job is to be in service of your audience. You’re there to help them, to provide them with information, etcetera, so one of the things that can help you become more confident and comfortable is just remind yourself that you’re there for them.

It’s not that the audience is there to judge and evaluate you, but you’re in service of them, so you really have to spend some times doing some reflection and reconnaissance to best understand what your audience needs from you. So, all effective communication, I believe, starts from this perspective of you as a communicator, be it a meeting leader, a manager, a keynote speaker, whatever, is to be in service of your audience.

So, that’s one important point, Pete, that I think really underlies all of this when it comes to becoming more confident in your communication.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent. Thank you. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Matthew Abrahams
So, the first time I heard this quote, and I have to admit I’ve been lazy and I don’t know who actually said it, but I heard it in the movie Buckaroo Banz ai, so I am now dating myself to let everybody know how old I am. But the quote is, “No matter where you go there you are.” And that quote, to me, is really impactful because part of what we need to do in any communication – and I would argue in our life in general – is be very present.

And it’s very easy in this age of technology and over-abundance of information to get very distracted very easily, so that quote is really important to me. No matter where you go, there you are. Make the best of it. Be present and attune to what’s going on around you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m sorry. What did you say? I had a text. Oh, just kidding.

Matthew Abrahams
It was me texting you. Be present.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah, be present. That’s good. Cool. And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research, something you really jive with?

Matthew Abrahams
So, I have two favorite research studies. I’ll share one and if you want me to share the other I’ll share it as well. So, it has to do with the power of language and how framing things in a positive way is much more motivational and persuasive. They went to two sets of people exactly identical, and they said, “We’re very sorry to tell you, you have a very bad disease, and the outcome is not likely to be good. We happen to have an experimental treatment that has a 67% failure rate. Would you like to take it?”

They immediately went to another group of people, exactly the same like that first group, and they said, “You’ve got this terrible disease, sorry to tell you this. There happens to be a potential treatment. It has a 33% success rate. Would you like to take it?” Doing the quick math, you’ll understand very quickly they said the same thing mathematically.

However, the people who heard it framed as a success rate were much more willing to take it than the people who heard the same thing as a failure rate. I find that fascinating that linguistically, the words we use to describe things can influence people very, very easily. So, that’s one of my favorite studies.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, that was so good, I do want to hear the other one.

Matthew Abrahams
So, the other one has to do with non-verbal persuasions. So, they called people into a lab and they said, “We’re testing your auditory acuity, in other words how well you hear. Every time you hear one beep, nod your head up and down. Every time you hear two beeps, nod your head side to side.” What they then did, that wasn’t the study. What they did is varied how many one beeps and two beeps people heard.

The subject came outside of the lab, sat next to somebody they thought was going into the lab next. It turned out that person sitting next to them was a confederate of the experimenter, and that person asked to borrow some money of the subject. The subjects who heard one beep, in other words nodded their head up and down, much more frequently gave them the money for the soda than the people who nodded their head side to side. In other words, if we can get people to change their non-verbal behavior, we can actually influence their willingness to behave in a certain way. I find that study fascinating.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that is fascinating. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Matthew Abrahams
Oh, I have so many favorite books. My favorite book, I’m thinking what’s on my nightstand right now. It’s a book on improv, and what I like about it is it really relates to how we can just apply improv skills to our daily life. It’s by Patricia Madson, and it’s called Improv Wisdom. And I’m a big fan of improvisation because of the communication skills it teaches, and her book does the great way of applying those skills just to day-to-day life, so I’m a big fan of Patricia Madson’s Improv Wisdom book.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, it’s so interesting, when I was researching on Amazon, it is frequently bought together with your book.

Matthew Abrahams
Yes, it is. And there’s a reason for that. So, I co-teach a class at Stanford with an improv expert, not Patricia herself, but somebody who studied under Patricia, and his name is Adam Tobin. And Adam and I teach a class where we actually apply and we use improv to teach tricky communication skills, so our students tend to buy those two books together.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, there it is. Yeah, now we know the rest of the story behind the Amazon recommendation. Cool.

Matthew Abrahams
And going along without getting into too much detail, Pete, there you go.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like it. Okay. Cool. And how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Matthew Abrahams
A favorite tool of mine. So, on my cellphone I rely, beyond relying on my scheduling app, I have several apps, you mentioned one, Ummo, that help with my communication skills. So, there are several apps that help with communication in terms of just fluency, vocal variation, etcetera, and those tools really help me personally but they also are very useful for the students I teach and the folks I consult with.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, please share names. What are the other apps?

Matthew Abrahams
So, there’s one called Orai, O-R-A-I, and another one called LikeSo, because so many people say Like and So when they communicate. But Ummo, Orai and LikeSo are apps that I use a lot and I refer people to all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And is there a particular nugget that you share that seems to really connect and resonate with folks and they play it back to you often?

Matthew Abrahams
Beyond the anxiety management plan, and I have had students come back to me from 10, 15 years ago, telling me they’re still using their anxiety management plan. One of my mantras is that communication is goal-driven, and you need to make sure you understand your goals in any high-stakes communication. And, to me, a goal has three parts: what do you want your audience to know, what do you want them to feel, and what do you want them to do. And I have students, consulting clients all the time come back to me and say it’s all about the no feel and do. It’s a very important mantra and very important bit of advice.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And do you have a favorite habit?

Matthew Abrahams
My favorite habit, since we’re ending our interview, I’ll bring us back to the beginning. I have a very short tai chi set or routine that I do every morning when I wake up and it just helps me get focused and gets me ready for the day.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, Matt, where would you point them?

Matthew Abrahams
I would point you to two places. The consulting practice I run is called Bold Echo, I co-founded this a number of years ago, it’s B-O-L-D-E-C-H-O.com, as well as a website I curate called No Freaking Speaking, and that website is designed to help people feel more comfortable and confident in their communication. So, again, it’s No Freaking Speaking and BoldEcho.com.

Pete Mockaitis
No Freaking Speaking reminds me of like a plumber commercial. It’s like, “Faucet leaking got you freaking?” And so, free associating.

Matthew Abrahams
You know what, Pete, you’re going to be my new PR, my new PR department.

Pete Mockaitis
“Your speaking got you freaking? Call Matt.” Cool. And, speaking of marketing, do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue here to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Matthew Abrahams
I do, indeed. I believe everybody has something important to contribute, a story to tell, advice to give, and we have to feel comfortable and confident with our communication in order to do that. So, I challenge everybody, as we speak we are before the New Year, take on as a New Year evolution, or resolution, whatever you see it as, as really addressing any issues you have around communication by addressing anxiety, by practicing and honing skills you already have. You can contribute to the world by sharing your story, sharing your information, and you’re going to have a lot more fun doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, fun, indeed. Yes, Matt, this has been tons of fun. I wish you lots of luck with your courses and your work and your clients and improv hilarity and all that you’re up to.

Matthew Abrahams
Thank you so much, Pete. I’ve enjoyed chatting with you. Thank you so much.