208: How to Make Your Message Resonate–Live and on Video with Vern Oakley

Pete Mockaitis
Vern, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Vern Oakley
Thanks, Pete. Glad to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, in learning a little bit about you, I discovered that you’ve earned over 150 awards for film, which is a huge number. So I’d love to hear from you, first of all, to break the ice a little, what’s been one of your favorite film projects and how is that you are able to just win so much acclaim?

Vern Oakley
I think what sort of differentiates us is we have a strong point of view about what a film should be, and I have a background in theater, I’ve directed a feature film that Columbia Tri-Star released, I did a TV series for PBS, and that I sort of took all those sort of storytelling mediums and translated them to our unique point of view on corporate and college and university and non-profit videos. In that we think deeply about story, we think deeply about the audience, we think deeply about how to connect the mission of these companies to the work that we’re doing.

Pete Mockaitis
Super. Well, now, what is the strong point of view if you were to articulate that in terms of you’ve got a take that can vary from others? Could you maybe lay it out the distinction, “Like, whereas most would say this, we would say that”?

Vern Oakley
Sure. A lot of people approach the kinds of sponsored films that we make or films they’re making for these kinds of clients with inside-out thinking. It’s like, “This is what I have to tell the audience.” We like to talk about, “Okay, tell us what you want to tell the audience, but let’s think about what the audience is willing to hear. Let’s think about the context where the audience is coming from on their journey to hear your story and what beliefs they might have here.”

And then, secondly, we’re really encouraging people not to sell and not to dazzle and not to be glitzy, but to be honest and authentic because that’s what cuts through in today’s society. It’s just so rare when that comes through from a company that people pay attention to it because they go, “Hey, well, this must be a different kind of a company because they must feel self-confident enough to show their true colors.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I love that honest, authentic principle. And I’m having some flashbacks. We talked before a little bit about my background at Bain doing consulting. I remember we had a session, maybe once a month on a Friday, we called Debunk the Myth where folks could submit anonymous questions and then the head of the office would put them up on the projector and just answer them whatever they were.

And every once in a while, he’d say, “Hey, you know, we can’t quite disclose this right now because it’s in process or this and that.” But for the most part they’re just very honest, even when they were joke questions and so they’d maybe do a joke right along with it, or they’d say, “Hey, be careful about this kind of joke. It can really be unprofessional if such and such a person would be present,” and then those jokesters learned their lessons. But it was awesome to see that just realness there.

Vern Oakley
It feels like all the adults are in the room and you’re not sort of sitting outside the circle, the inner circle, which they have all the knowledge and are not going to let you participate. And I think, ultimately, what people are looking to do is to join a tribe to become part of something that they feel that they can contribute to, and their contributions are meaningful.

So if you think about it that way then you have to tell the truth, you have to be authentic, and I understand exactly what you were saying about at Bain & Company. Some things you can’t tell at that moment. That’s okay. That’s an adult answer. But you can’t gloss over it, you can’t put a bow around it and tell people it’s beautiful when they kind of know that they’re going to be laying off 3,000 people, or the product they just launched failed. You got to talk to people in ways that they’re real, and then they respect you. There’s a relationship that’s forming out of trust and mutual respect, and that’s crucial in terms of video.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s powerful. And so we’re going to talk about a number of principles. Video is your expertise. But I think many of those principles kind of carry over into whenever you’re kind of on in terms of presenting or doing a speech or a slide deck or whatever. So maybe, to start us off, could you give us some of the key distinctions that we should bear in mind as we’re talking about principles that are more video-centric versus are universal and applied to the presentations? The authentic piece, I think, absolutely is universal. But what’s maybe distinctive?

Vern Oakley
Well, I think when you think about doing a live presentation versus a video presentation is that live is like you walk onto the stage, you talk for your 15, 20, 30 minutes and then you walk off the stage. So one of the great things about video that’s a little different is you have the power of editing. You can cut out the mistakes. You also have the power of multimedia. You can add in music or pictures that really makes it quite, quite powerful in terms of the way the brain processes that kind of information.

But the similarities between the two, if you’re talking about somebody being on video or somebody being on stage, is that we like to see what’s real. We like to see that people drop the mic. We like to see people make mistakes, and then we like to see that they acknowledge that because that shows they are human. That shows that, “Hey, I’m kind of like them. I might get up and make a mistake in my presentation.” But if you make a mistake in your presentation and you don’t acknowledge it, it feels like you’re trying to create this barrier, you’re trying to create this feeling of being perfect.

And I have news for all of your listeners, no one is perfect. I’m not perfect. I haven’t met a perfect person yet. And yet we try to be perfect, and that keeps us distant on film or live.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. And I’m reflecting on at times I’ve made mistakes in front of large groups and presentations, and whether it’s mumbling or stuttering or going too fast on the words, you know, kinds of challenges. And so I will often just say, “Ooh, rewind,” or, “Excuse me, what I meant to say was,” or something like that. Do you have any other kind of favorite tips, tricks, phrases for those situations?

Vern Oakley
One of my favorite pieces of advice is just to breathe. I know it seems simple but one of the things you’ll find in terms of professional athletes or professional actors who are out there performing is that they know how to do breath control. In that, I like to say is fear is excitement without the breath. So when we feel fearful, if we’re not breathing, just by the mere fact that breathing and taking a moment, we can release that fear.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s good. And so are there any particulars for breathing well? Like breathe this way under that circumstance and a different way under another context. Or is there a universal, “Do this when breathing”? I guess I’ve read a lot about belly breathing or into the nose or the mouth or this many counts. How do you think about that?

Vern Oakley
Well, obviously, I think you must be taking yoga classes because that’s the three kinds of breathing that they teach in yoga, and those are all good. I think for any person who’s about to go on camera or who’s on stage the main thing is just remember to breathe.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Vern Oakley
It’s like I don’t want them complicated because I don’t want them to think, you know, “Am I belly breathing, nose breathing?” or whatever. Just remember, if you’re not breathing, you got fear. If you are breathing, you can get over it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Awesome. Well, so now, when it comes to videos, what is it about a great video that enables or really just facilitates a lot of inspiration toward taking action? What are those key ingredients?

Vern Oakley
A couple of things I want to talk about, I’m sure the listeners will understand this, is that when we’re watching a video there are two things that are going on. There’s the video that the filmmaker made and we’re watching that, but there is our own internal video that’s going on that has us relating to that situation, “Oh, that’s just the way my wife and I kid around,” or, “Oh, that’s the kind of car I always wanted to get.”

So you’re constantly inserting yourself in the story. So there’s your story and there’s the story that the filmmakers made, and that what we’re trying to do is create a shared perception. It’s easy to understand that in terms of feature films because if it’s a horror film you want everybody to jump out of their seats at the same moment. Or if it’s romantic comedy you want the two characters to get together.

But in corporate video it’s harder to acknowledge what people are supposed to do. So it’s important, in terms of storytelling, that you are clear who the audience is, it’s clear where the audience is coming from and the context of the video is, and it’s clear if there’s any sort of elephants in the room because they need to be addressed immediately or people won’t listen to a word you’re saying until you actually acknowledge, “Hey, everyone has heard that we may be shutting down the factory over here.” Well, if you don’t tell people that, they’re listening, and listening to you, say something about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So can you give us some extra examples of that there and what you’re saying about you’re speaking to the elephant in the room?

Vern Oakley
Yes, so when you understand deeply who the audience is that you’re communicating with, if they believe there’s something that needs to be mentioned, there’s an apology that needs to be made, your drug has hurt some people, or the delivery that was supposed to happen didn’t come, you have to -acknowledge that first or no communication can happen. People are sitting there with their arms crossed in a way waiting for you to let them know that you’re human because you’ve made a mistake.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Got it. Well, so now, I want to hear a little bit about when it comes to sort of the self-management piece. You mentioned breathing is key. Do you have any additional strategies to help folks just relax and do their best whether they are doing a video or in front of a camera, or whether they’re in a live audience environment?

Vern Oakley
Sure. I think that people understand that these are skills that you actually learn over time. Not many people I know that has started their speaking career don’t want a little bit of help. I do know a lot of people who have started their video career who don’t seek any help because they think, “Oh, it’s just I’ve been on video, my kids shot me at the birthday party.”

So there’s a little bit of false equivalency in that, “Hey, I’ve been on camera before in a casual situation,” versus, “I’m going to be on camera in an important situation where I have to be succinct or I have to deliver a message. Or the message that I might’ve said in a speech is 30 minutes, I have to deliver the essence of it in two minutes.” So it takes a little bit of thought.

One of the things that I find as a common mistake, and I know no one would do this, I’ve never done it, you’ve probably never done it, is think, “Oh, well, I have to show up at the room at 2:00 o’clock to be in the video.” That’s not the right mindset. “I have to be there at 2:00 o’clock to communicate with the 10,000 employees and it’s going to be captured on a video, so I want to be thinking about those 10,000 employees, or those 200 Kickstarter people, or the leadership council that is going to be seeing this.”

So you really need to be thinking about the audience not the technology that’s putting you there in terms of communication. And that’s a huge mind shift that I think many of us have to make.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So thinking about the people and not the technology, and maybe also just not yourself, or how you’re dressed, or whether that slide six has the perfect content for slide six, but who the people are there, where they’re coming from, what you want them to do, and then rolling with that. I also want to hear a little bit about sometimes when it’s kind of captured forever or immortalized on video or audio or some sort of recorded medium, people get worked up about wanting to just be perfect because, “Everyone is going to see this forever. It’s got to be perfect.” How do you address that mindset piece?

Vern Oakley
Well, Brene Brown has done a lot of great research on this and, frankly, nobody wants perfect. It’s just not that interesting. The reason that we pay 10 bucks to see a movie is we want to see somebody who’s imperfect, and that good stories are always about change, “You know, I started out as an alcoholic, and I got my act together, and now I’m happily married and I have two kids.” You want to see that change, and that applies in the business world too.

And one of the things that business leaders need to be cognizant of is that it takes courage to tell your story. It takes courage to talk about that change that you’re going through because many corporate stories, films, videos, presentations is, “We’re really good and we’re getting better.” And that’s moving the story from A to B as opposed to, “Boy, we really had a bad implementation of the new software program. I’m telling you that it shocked me that it took so long. And now we figured out the problem, and we’re six months behind, but if we all worked together we actually can meet this new deadline.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I like that. And this reminds me a little bit of Warren Buffett and his writing in the annual reports, is that there’s usually a negative admission in his letter to folks, and people connect, they resonate with it.

Vern Oakley
I’m so glad that you’re talking about Warren Buffett. He’s one of my favorites. I loved it when he had a down year, and he said, “Boy, we’d have a much better year if Charlie and I just spent a little more time playing bridge.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s so good. You know, I’ve long wanted to learn bridge just because Bill Gates and Warren Buffett play it so there must be something to it. I’ve never learned.

Vern Oakley
Yeah, that’d be quite… I tell you, bud, we’ll learn it and we’ll ask them if they’d have a foursome.

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds fantastic. I’m in. I’m in if they’re in.

Vern Oakley
Okay.

Pete Mockaitis
So we talked about the perfect piece. No one really digs it. It’s kind of boring. They want to see some more change and that makes it dynamic and intriguing. So any other kind of core elements that make for a strong delivery or just generally that makes things compelling?

Vern Oakley
Well, a couple of tips that I think would be helpful to listeners is that there’s such a tremendous emphasis in the corporate world on words. And I understand why that is. You want to say the right thing, you want to have the right words, you want to describe things, there’s legal issues, there’s political issues. All that stuff. So that’s really important. Statistically it’s a lot less important than people think. But if you’re going to be on camera, a couple of things that are more important, perhaps, are your excitement, your vocal tonality, and your body language.

So if there’s an incongruity in your body language, and we’ve all seen that where somebody is saying, “Oh, we just had the best year ever,” and you don’t believe them for a second because their eyes are darting back and forth, or their arms are crossed in front of them. You need those three things to really communicate. And what we’re talking about is communication, making a connection.

So if you’ve got the right words, you’ve got the right vocal intonations, and you have the right body language, those are the moments that really wind up resonating with people. Because people, whether it’s a speech or whether it’s a video, only going to come away with two or three things that they really remember.

Pete Mockaitis
And you remind of times that this doesn’t line up but it just cracks me up like if someone says, I’ve seen this many times, “That’s too funny.” I was like, “Was it really too funny? I don’t know if I’m buying that that was too funny because of how you said it.” Or sometimes even at mass, you know, church stuff, “And in one accord we join the angels and rejoicing.” I was like, “Really? That doesn’t sound like we’re rejoicing in the least right now.”

Vern Oakley
I understand. I mean, Woody Allen does that really well in Broadway Danny Rose. We have a group of comedians around and they’re telling jokes to each other, and the one guys goes, “That was funny.” So like you kind of, it was funny just in saying it. Unless there’s that joy and rejoicing and the angels, that power, you feel it, you kind of go like, “Wow, was that really the way you feel?”

Pete Mockaitis
Understood, yes. And I love it. I heard someone, I think it was Roger Love, who sort of break down what makes for a great voice dynamics, and it’s like you have some variety not only in your pitch but also in your volume and your pacing, and that makes things generally interesting. And you’re saying, even more so specifically, you want that to line up to be congruent with the content of what you’re conveying.

Vern Oakley
And the capper is the body language.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us some examples of good and bad body language? I guess that needs to match. But are there any kind of universal do’s and don’ts there?

Vern Oakley
Yes, I think what you’re looking for is you’re looking for an open body language. You can just see your hands reaching out, palms up. I mean, when the body, arms are crossed in front of you, it’s somewhat defensive. One thing that when you meet somebody the first time, I always like it if you’re shaking hands, they look you in the eye. If they don’t look you in the eye and look away, you go like, “Well, are we truly making that connection, taking that moment there?” And that kind of human behavior extends to being on stage and on camera.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Okay. So, now, I want to touch base on storytelling a bit. Everyone says that’s so important. But what really makes a story kind of engaging, that makes people care to listen and to take it all in?

Vern Oakley
Well, let’s start with the audience, who the audience is. So if you have an understanding of who the audience is and where they are in terms of being interested in your story, not interested, visually, are their arms crossed or are they open to hearing what you say, that helps you to communicate and choose the right kind of story to tell them.

I think so much depends upon the message that you’re trying to deliver. The question that we all start with when we’re designing our communications is, “What do you want the audience to think, do, feel, say, buy or buy into after seeing your video?” And once you answer that it’s going to help you determine the story.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very cool. And so now I’m thinking, in the nitty-gritty, let’s say that you are a day or an hour away from a video recording or presentation, what do you think are the must-dos in that space of time?

Vern Oakley
Well, it depends upon how you’re being recorded, but let’s say that it’s not a teleprompter, and that’s a whole different subject but it is a conversation with somebody. You want to be aware of the sort of the essence. One of the things that frequently happens in video for presenters who are moving from live to video is that they figured out a way to tell their message in 20 or 30 minutes, let’s say.

When they come on video we’re talking about the essence, the essential elements, the two to three minutes of key topics. I like to say it’s like a good tennis match because you want a director who is talking to you and who’s actively listening to you so that you have a sounding board, a visual sounding board that the camera is just recording that conversation with the two of you, and that I think it’s important that people sort of understand something I call the sacred space.

It’s that when you’re being put on video, the space between the director and you is really sort of the only thing that’s important at that moment. It isn’t the catering truck that is out there, it isn’t the traffic noise in the background, it isn’t the makeup or the crew or the lights. It’s just that space between you and the director that’s going to be so essential to making something great on camera.

So understanding that everything else has to be sort of let go. You can’t be thinking about your kids at camp. You can’t be thinking about, “I forgot to pay the electric bill.” You have to be in that moment, focused between two human beings. And when that’s recorded, and recorded well, it is so fresh and exciting.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes. I dig that. And that’s one of my favorite things, really, about speaking, is that it’s clear that in that moment there’s nothing else that should be happening. Whereas any hour of a typical workday, I’m in the office, I can choose from hundreds of things I might do, but there it’s like, “Okay, we’re all setup, we’ve scheduled this, all the right people are here, I’m in the room, I’m mic up, and it’s like, I can know with certainty that this is all that matters in that moment.” And maybe that’d be a good philosophy or mindset to take into many environments but, yes, it does make a world of difference when you’re so, I guess, present might be the word.

Vern Oakley
Yes, be here now.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now I’m wondering about some folks if they think, “You know what, I’ve done some videos, I’ve done a number of presentations, and I think I’m pretty good.” What are some pro tips for making the jump to upgrade from “Okay, not bad,” to, “Wow, that’s mind-blowing”?

Vern Oakley
Well, in that jump from good to great it’s like in a lot of other areas. So you think about sports. The team that played on Sunday goes and watches the game tapes on Monday. So you do the same thing. You’re going to look at your performances and you go, “Hey, I didn’t like this. I felt like I didn’t smile well enough. One of the things I realized is that the person asked me the question, as soon as I answered, I turned away so they had to cut away too quickly. I’d like a little bit more of a moment at the end of my sentence,” and you start to get into the nuance.

And that I think it’s really helpful to have a trusted person, whether that’s a director, a video coach, a communications colleague, a partner to be there with you, because if you want to get better it does take constructive analysis of looking at what you do well and what you don’t do well. I think another tip is that you’re looking to partner with people in this journey. And what I mean by that is that, as I have referenced this, it’s like a tennis match. You need somebody who can really help you.

So there’s some CEOs that I direct all the time because we’ve developed a rapport, and it was apparent to me, when talking to one of them, they said, “You know, what really works is that you know the subject that you’re talking about, and I don’t have to think about that. And your questions, well-crafted, make me give better answers.”

And I think that as somebody who’s doing podcast and this kind of thing, you really understand the power of a good question. And a lot of the questions that we see sent over that we might, that we kind of, hopefully, people, we write, is, “Tell us about your strategy.” Well, that’s pretty vague. How about, “Tell us what all the employees can do in the next 30 or 60, 90 days to make sure the company reaches its goal”?

Pete Mockaitis
All right. That’s good. Well, so could you maybe tie all this together for us, Vern, in terms of a nice example of going from sort of, “Ho-hum, okay, this will be all right,” to a transformation that made a world of impact?

Vern Oakley
You know, one of the things that we enjoy most is working with companies that want to make a difference in the world. And I think that when you look at the research, people tend to spend a large portion of their life at work, and that one of the things that human beings, I have observed over time, is they want to do something that’s meaningful.

So if you want to do something that’s meaningful you’re going to be working for a company that wants to create change in the world in a positive way, not just in the product they’re doing but in the way they interact with the communities, the way they treat the employees. And so we’ve had a good fortune of being involved with a number of companies who give back, who treat employees well, and who are frequently on Best Employers’ list.

So it’s being a part of helping them to build these high-performance cultures that I really, really like, and that extends across doing brand videos, letting everybody know the mission, vision and values, that extends across doing the right kind of recruiting, that gets the right people in the door and sorts of puts up a mental barrier to people who wouldn’t really succeed there. That includes helping people raise money, or helping to acknowledge the kind of contributions they’re making to society and their social responsibility programs. So being a part of a company and really being their communication partner in video is just so, so rewarding.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, very good. And so could you maybe give us an example of, say, here’s a sort of a goal, not so resonant and inspiring and authentic piece of messaging, and that transform into, “Wow, that does something for me”?

Vern Oakley
You know, we do a lot of employee profiles and a lot of videos around values. So there’s an energy company we’re working with, and we were trying to illustrate their value of social responsibility. And one of the things we do, because we put a lot of real people on cameras, we’re researching these stories alongside our clients to figure out what would be a powerful story, and that we have three stories we’re considering. And the most powerful story was about this company has that was removing the oil wells that they’d put in the North Sea.

So, 20 years ago they drilled in the North Sea to get oil, and now they had to remove the oil rigs. And they had worked over time with the Scottish Fishermen’s Association to be a good partner so that the fishermen can still do the fishing but still could get the oil. And our partner, over a period of time, said, “Well, listen. The problem with this story internally right now is that we’re not making any money on this.” And we said, “That’s the point. That’s why it’s such a great story because when you do this story, we understand that we have to make money but one of the thing about being socially responsible is you put other things, the health of the planet, above that.”

And so working with them over three rounds of things, we got them to do that story, and it became one of the most popular stories on their website, and one of the most watched by all their employees, and one of the most shared because people were so proud to work for a company that had that kind of commitment to the environment, especially an energy company because a lot of energy companies don’t have that strong commitment and haven’t had good track records.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Thank you. Well, Vern, tell me, is there anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Vern Oakley
I think the thing that I’ve discovered, and, listen, I don’t think I’m that great on camera. I’m learning, and so writing helped me to learn even more. But the thing that was most valuable to me is that as I’m learning to be more authentic on camera, I’m also learning to be more authentic in my life. And that journey towards authenticity is so rewarding and it’s both an emotional and a spiritual experience, and it’s improving my relationships with my colleagues and my family and my wife, because you’re either growing or dying, and I hope I am growing.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Thank you. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Vern Oakley
Well, in terms of the film world, there’s an artist that I really like named Banksy. And he talks about film is an incredibly democratic and accessible. It’s probably the best option if you actually want to change the world. And I think about the artist who I admire who are working in film, whether it’s Coppola or Ridley Scott, and I think about the documentarian Wade Myer and I think about the work that we’re doing in corporate, and I feel like we’re a part of this new group of business artists that are trying to change the business world through the stories that we’re telling.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s awesome. Thank you. And how about a favorite book?

Vern Oakley
I think one of my favorite books is Leadership BS by Jeff Pfeffer.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, Pfeffer. Very good. And what do you like about it?

Vern Oakley
Well, I like being sort of the contrarian because there’s too much stuff that’s all saying the same thing. And when you start to scratch a little deeper, you start to realize that some of the common perceptions are just wrong. And that I like the fact that he started me to think in a new way. And anybody who does that with a book or a piece of music or a movie, I love that you can change someone’s thinking and introduce them to a new world or a new worldview.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool?

Vern Oakley
I think my favorite tool is my iPhone. I use it for both business and artistry. I love being on Instagram and going out and playing with the visuals that are just so beautiful and abundant around us.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how about a favorite habit?

Vern Oakley
I think my favorite habit is one that I learned from Julia Cameron in The Artist’s Way is that when I wake up I try to write three pages of stream of consciousness in the morning, and I try to do that as early as I wake up before I’ve had too much coffee. And that I call it skimming off the pond scum. I write whatever comes into my mind no matter how beautiful or horrific or painful or objectionable, and that if I can get all those things out of the shadow side, and all those things that are just random things, I feel like I can start the day pretty fresh.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. And is there a particular nugget or piece that you share that really seems to resonate with folks, they nod their heads, they’re taking notes out of a Vern original?

Vern Oakley
Well, this is could get pretty deep but I kind of believe that we’re on this journey to learn what love is.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Vern Oakley
That once we, you know, and that’s our journey and that’s our mission, and the more we’re open to it, the more authentic we become, and it’s not easy. I stub my toes a lot along the way but bringing love into your life, into your work life, into your family, into your business is something. And that’s something I see a lot of people nod their head to when we get to this level of intimacy and discussion that we’re having right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Thank you. Agreed. And if folks want to learn more about you or your business, where would you point them?

Vern Oakley
Well, our business is TribePictures.com, our website, with a lot of different videos on our philosophy there. And my personal website is VernOakley.com, and there’s information about our book on that and the kinds of speaking engagements that I have coming up.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for those seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Vern Oakley
Bring love to work.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Oh, go ahead.

Vern Oakley
No, I just felt like I left it lingering because I didn’t put a period at the end of the sentence. I wasn’t using my vocal intonations properly. Bring love to work!

Pete Mockaitis
All right. I’m sold. Oh, well, Vern, this has been so much fun. Thank you for sharing your time and your wisdom here. This has been a lot of fun for me and, hopefully, the listeners as well. I hope that you keep on making great film and rack up all the more awards and make that meaningful love impact in your work.

Vern Oakley
Thank you, Pete. Been great talking with you.