055: Coaching Questions of Mass Instruction with Michael Bungay Stanier

Pete Mockaitis
Michael, thank you so much for joining us here on the “How to Be Awesome at Your Job” podcast.

Michael Bungay Stanier
I am thrilled to be here. I am looking forward to finding out how to be awesome at your job so lead on.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Your book, The Coaching Habit, could you give us a quick snapshot? What’s it all about and why is coaching as a habit counter-intuitive?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Well it’s about helping busy people be a little bit more coach-like in the way that they work so that they can work less hard and have more impact. Coaching is one of those words that everybody’s heard of that gets bandied around a lot. Nobody’s highly sure what it means unless you’re actually a coach. In fact, there’s about eight million different definitions of what coaching is. Here’s what it is fundamentally I think. It really helps you have a better life if you can stay curious just a little bit longer and if you can rush to advice giving and action just a little bit slower.

If I had to pick an ideal reader when I was writing it, it was like I’m a busy manager. I like my job, I’m trying to do my best for my team, for myself, for my company. I’m working really hard. I’m a little bit exhausted, a little bit overwhelmed. Isn’t there a better way of doing this? You know what, there is. It’s about building some habits so that you can stay curious in it longer. In the book, we’ve tried to make it as simple as possible [inaudible 00:04:25]. Look, if you have these seven essential questions you’re going to really lift your game as a manager, as a leader, as a human being.

Pete Mockaitis
That sounds powerful. We heard earlier in episode 37 with Professor Marquardt about how questions are fantastically powerful and so often you’re wasting an opportunity if you make a statement when you could be asking a question.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Right. I’m not trying to say never give anybody advice ever again. I am saying though that your advice isn’t nearly as good as you think it is. Even if it is good, the people aren’t really listening to it as much as you think they might be. Just on a neurological level, just brain science, you can throw people in a brain scanner, an fMRI scanner. This is a simplification but essentially if you give somebody advice the electrical activity in their brain doesn’t actually change that much. It kind of just keeps humming along. You ask a good question, it creates one of those aha moments. You can see the new neural pathways being formed and the new neural connections being strengthened. Asking a good question literally changes people’s potential, literally increases their potential by creating more brain connections.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s exciting. I can imagine why that would show up on an fMRI machine because … Sometimes the podcast guests turn the tables on me every once in a while. Ah man, I’m thinking a lot harder now because I’ve already done my pre-thinking in advance of the interview. It’s like I already know the things I want to cover. When someone asks me a question, “Ooh”, “Well”, and it really gets me lit up I guess mentally.

Michael Bungay Stanier
I’ll be experimenting with that as we carry on. The next half an hour, my goal now is to turn the tables on you as often as possible.

Pete Mockaitis
I welcome it. That’s the great thing with the edit button. If I look like a total moron, that part’s not going to make it unless it’s instructive. It’s a sacrificial gift.

Michael Bungay Stanier
I like your style.

Pete Mockaitis
You mentioned it’s for busy managers and often you don’t have a whole lot of time. You think that often these conversations can take 10 minutes or less.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Right. Well look, here’s what the research tells us. There are some people who go, “Look, I don’t want anything to do with this whole coaching thing. It sounds weird and HRy and touchy feely and pastel-colored. I’m not that type of person.” I’ve got a different answer for them. For the folks that are inclined towards coaching who go, “You know what, that could be good.” The biggest barrier … We’ve done some research about this, a Box of Crayons, but there’s plenty of other research out there. I just don’t have time for that. A lot of people will say, “You need to coach your people.” They think that involves pulling into a room, blocking out half an hour, being coached like “I’m going to coach you. You’re going to be coached by me.” A slightly weird, slightly awkward conversation on both parts. They’re like okay good, “We can go back to being normal for the next month until our next coaching session.”  I’m like, let’s blow that up.

What we teach in the book and in our programs are this. We’re not trying to turn you into a coach. We want you to be more coach-like. Secondly, we’re not trying to add to what you already do because you’re busy enough. What we want to do is transform what you currently do so it becomes more coach-like. Every interaction, intervention with somebody else you have the opportunity to be more coach-like. Meaning you stay curious a bit longer and you move to action and advice a little bit slower. This final piece is you can do it fast. You kind of have to do it quickly. Honestly you’re too busy with all the other stuff to be able to go, “We’ve got to spend 45 minutes on this conversation every time.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well that’s powerful. It can be done quickly. If you’re managing somebody or you’re collaborating with somebody and you haven’t done any sorts of this coaching question thing before, is there any kind of intro or preamble that you want to put on it or do you just jump right into it with the kick-start question, as you’ve called something?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Well the kick-start question is the number one question in the book, the first question in the book. It’s there because it’s a really useful way of starting most conversations. Honestly a bit part of what this is about Pete is getting everybody just to calm down about this whole idea of coaching. Everybody gets a bit uptight about it, “Ah, I’m coaching somebody. What does that mean? How do we do this?” It’s just having a few good questions in your back pocket and using them more often that you’re currently doing. Don’t get too uptight about it, just relax.

Here’s what the kick-start question is. It’s a simple question that opens up the conversation but provides some focus as well. The question is this: What’s on your mind? “Hey Pete, good to see you. I’m glad we’re here for our regular podcast, or our regular meeting. What’s on your mind today? Where should we start? What should we look at first?” All of those are great questions because they’re questions so they put the onus back on the other person to do the work, to do the thinking, to have the aha moment. You’re saying, “Tell me stuff. Tell me stuff that matters. Talk to me about something that is important. Let’s go to the thing that you’re thinking about, or worrying about, or concerned about.” It immediately provides a little bit more focus and direction than most kick-off conversations have.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. I’ll tell you, since you said you’d turn the tables … What I’m thinking about is will we be able to get all of the best stuff in the minutes we have remaining in this conversation?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Well I hope not. If we give them all the best stuff, well where’s the incentive to then go and check out what else is out there? Our goal is to tease them with some of the best stuff whilst making veiled illusions about how much other great stuff is out there. If only they grabbed hold of a copy of the book from the library or from a download on the website. If you really pushed to it, maybe even buying a copy.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s fun. So transparent.

Michael Bungay Stanier
It’s subtle. I didn’t do subtle very well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s fun. Feel free to plead the fifth if any of these questions are too potent for you.

Michael Bungay Stanier
If it reveals too much, okay.

Pete Mockaitis
Talk to us a little bit about staying on track with the “AWE” question.

Michael Bungay Stanier
If there’s only one thing that you remember from this podcast, it should be this “AWE” question. If there’s only one thing you remember from this podcast you’re just not trying hard enough. Let me tell you what the “AWE” question is. It’s the number two question in the book. I make this bold claim that it’s the best coaching question in the world. Everybody listen to this podcast. Everybody’s leaning in, the pen is poised over paper or whatever. What I love about it, it’s called the “AWE” question because it’s actually an acronym for the three words in the question, so A-W-E. The question is simply this: And what else?

Pete Mockaitis
Boom.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Here’s the thing … You say “Boom.” Most people go, “Huh, is that it, is that all you got? How is “And what else?” the best coaching question in the world?” Honestly, even as I say it, I can feel this slight ripple of anti-climax rippling out from your various listeners to this podcast Pete. Let me tell people why I think “AWE”, “And what else?” is as powerful as it is. The first is this key inside. The first answer somebody gives you to a question is never their only answer and it’s rarely their best answer. Second, it’s a really powerful self-management tool. Remember our goal here, stay curious a little bit longer, rush to advice and action just a little bit slower. For instance, I go to you “Hey Pete, what’s on your mind?” You go, “What’s on my mind is how do I get the best stuff out in this podcast.” There’s part of me that immediately goes “Well let me tell you, I’ll work some ideas about how you could do that. I think this is what you should do. You should ask this question first, you should ask this question second, you should interrupt me if I’m talking too …” There’s a bunch of me twitching to give you the answer.

If I’m trying to resist that, to actually be lazy … We call it be lazy, that’s one of our key principals. Be lazy, be curious, be often; thinking about coaching. If I’m trying to be lazy and to stay curious I might go, “So that’s on your mind. What else? What else is on your mind?” You can see what that does. It immediately passes the ball back to you. “I get that. I had to make the good stuff happen in the podcast.” “What else, what else is on your mind?” Now you’re back doing the work, you’re doing the thinking and I get to stay curious. That’s the double power of “And what else?” It discovers more, it squeezes more out of the first question that you’ve asked. Secondly it helps you stay curious longer.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that a lot. I find myself saying, “Tell me more.” a lot, which is related to “And what else?”. I think “And what else?” means give me an additional topic, as opposed to “Tell me more.” is a little bit more about go into more depth about the current topic.

Michael Bungay Stanier
I tell you why I say “Tell me more.”, less rather than more often. One of the things that we’re trying to do, I’ll say it again. Stay curious longer, rush to action and advice a little bit slower. Often when people are saying “Tell me more.”, what they’re saying is “Give me more detail about what’s going on so I can come up with a better solution for you and tell you what to do.” One of the questions that you need to ask yourself when you ask that question “Tell me more.” is “Who does this really serve?” Does it serve them or does it serve me? “And what else?” typically serves them because you’re helping them uncover more of what’s going on for them in response to that first question, whatever it might be. “Tell me more.” often is designed to serve you. It’s like give me more information so I than then tell you what to do. You just need to check your intentions there. Who does this really serve? Tell me more. Does that really serve them or is it really about trying to make me feel better?

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, thank you. I will be working on that a little bit. I hear you. I think it really does go both ways as I reflect on my own experience. Sometimes it’s just like, “I genuinely want to understand where you’re coming from. Tell me more.” As opposed to, “I don’t have the facts I require yet to optimize. Tell me more.” They’re two very different flavors. Thank you. Okay, I’m getting coached myself. Much appreciated.

Michael Bungay Stanier
You didn’t know what you were letting yourself in for when we signed up for this.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so I’m just going to keep going down this pathway. It’s working for me, asking about your capitalized question names. What’s the “Lazy” question all about?

Michael Bungay Stanier
The “Lazy” question … You heard me say before that one of our key principles … We have three when it comes to helping busy managers coach in 10 minutes or less. The principles are be lazy, be curious, be often. This “Lazy” question is really important. The goal is … I’m starting to repeat myself but repetition is the secret to learning. The goal is to stop the rush in advice-giving and action. We are all advice-giving maniacs. When we love to give advice, people don’t even know how much they want to give advice. They don’t even know what the problem is but they’ve got some initial thought on how they could tackle it. We’re trying to slow that down. The “Lazy” question, it’s going to sound a bit paradoxical, because when I tell you what it is it won’t even sound like it’s being that lazy. The “Lazy” question is this: How can I help? What do you want from me? Lots of people when they hear that for the first time, they say to themselves “That sounds like the opposite of laziness. That sounds like you’re asking for a whole lot more work.” Here’s what it’s doing. It’s disrupting the normal pattern of behavior.

As soon as you hear something your brain fills with advice. “I’ve stopped listening really, I’m just waiting for them to shut-up so I can give them the advice or I’m waiting for them to shut-up so I can start the intervention. I’ve already decided what they need and I’m going to start doing it to them or for them or whatever.” “How can I help?” or “What do you want from me?” doesn’t allow you to make an assumption as to what it is that they want. It forces them to make a clearer, more direct request for what they want. So you go, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Michael, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do I get the good stuff out in this podcast?” I’m like “That’s a great question. I understand what you’re up against Pete but let me ask you this. How can I help you? What do you want from me?” You may go, “So brainstorm with me, have some ideas and make sure I could do that.” Or you could go, “Nothing. I just needed to vent for a little bit about how frustrating it is that this particular guest has gone on, on, and on and doesn’t any real value at all. There’s no good stuff yet.” You could have different needs. I’m like, “Okay, good, it sounds like you’ve vented. Let’s move on.” That’s the “Lazy” question. How can I help? What do you want from me?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh that’s great. You’re saying, in practice the “Lazy” question more often results in people saying “Oh, I need this very little thing from you” or “I need absolutely nothing from you”, than it does “I’m so glad you asked, I have a three hour task that I think you would just be perfect for.”

Michael Bungay Stanier
Well it just makes it explicit what the other person is really hoping for. What’s nice about it is that you get to say yes, or no, or maybe, or not this but I could do that to the response. If you go, “Michael I’d like you to send me a 20-page document listing all the good stuff you intend to cover in this podcast.” I’d go, “Okay, I hear you. I’m not going to be able to do that I’m afraid. What else would be useful? What else would you want?” I get to say no to that request but you get to ask it. I get to say yes, no, or maybe. That’s the real power of that. If you don’t understand that you have the power to say, “Well sorry I can’t do that.” then that question can really trip you up.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s golden. Well I’m just going to keep on going here. Tell me about the “Strategic” question.

Michael Bungay Stanier
What is strategy? There’s a thousand different definitions for what strategy is. One of the ones I really love is this: What are you going to say no to so that you can decide to say yes to something full-heartedly, absolutely with a real sense of commitment? In some ways what strategy is, it’s saying no to the stuff that you kind of want to say yes to. Strategy is making choices. It’s about going, “Where do we choose to focus?” We can’t do it all. We have to pick our battles.

In most organizations and most people’s lives they’re kind of crappy at saying no. They’re like, “Ah, kinda say yes.” Kinda added on. The number of people I’ve talked to who go, “I’ve got 98 key priorities for this week.” That’s delusional, that’s not a priority. This is the list of to-dos now. Gosh, I wish I could claim that I had no to-dos and a clear strategic, only these three things. That’s what I work on. That’s why these questions are so powerful. This is the question: If you’re saying yes to this what must you say no to? The two parts of that is: What are you really saying yes to? What are you fully committed to? If that’s the case, what must you say no to, to make that really legitimate, powerful, credible choice?

Pete Mockaitis
Lovely, thank you. Each of these it’s so funny, I want to sit with for minutes at a time. I’ll do that later, that’s why we’re recording it.

Michael Bungay Stanier
What I love about what you’re saying here is that … I know they’re is a bunch of people listening in and they may be having the same reaction to you. “Ooh, I like that question. Ooh, I like that question. Ooh, I like this question.” That’s awesome. I want you to like as many of these questions as possible obviously. The book is called the Coaching Habit. The first chapter is actually built around how do you build new habits, how do you change your behavior. The problem with many books, and training companies, and courses and the like is that it may be full of interesting content but what’s different at the end of that? That’s why we lead with this whole [inaudible 00:22:19] information about how to build a habit. One of the key insights around that is this. If you really like some of these questions, why not pick one of them and work to make one of those questions part of repertoire. Don’t pick three, or five, or seven. Pick one and go, “I’m going to master this question. I’m going to kick its butt.” Then you’ve got a better chance of building it into your repertoire, actually making it part of the behavior change. That becomes more powerful for you.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. Thank you. That’s funny, I’ve already … I want to get a full picture of the menu before I select. Can you tell us about the “Focus” question?

Michael Bungay Stanier
It really stems from this insight, in many organizations, probably in life as well, people working really hard to solve the wrong challenges. They get seduced into thinking that the first challenge that shows up is the real challenge. We’re right back to where we started this conversation. I go, “What’s on your mind?” You’re like, “How do I get the good stuff out in this podcast?” It’s so easy to go, “That’s it, that’s the thing we need to be working on. Let’s roll up our sleeves and get to work around that.” If I go, “What else is a challenge for you, what else is a challenge?”

Here comes the “Focus” question: So what’s the real challenge here for you? What you’re going to find is, starting with the good content is the starting point, but out of all of that what’s the real challenge here for you? You’re going to find that the focus has shifted a little bit. Who knows what it is for Pete. It could be my real challenge is, “After Michael as a guest, everybody’s going to seem boring and pedestrian.” It could be that. Or “My real problem is I don’t know how to interrupt boring guests like Michael so that we can get to the real stuff when they’re delivering so much hum-drum content that I want to edit it out.” Or it could be anything. What happens is that often what’s the real challenge for you, is it swings the spotlight onto the person who you’re having the conversation with. It’s no longer Pete talking about his podcast, it’s Pete talking about where Pete’s struggles are with the podcast or whatever it is that he’s working on. It becomes a more powerful conversation because of that.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you. You were getting at, what is having an engaging, useful interview about? Why does that matter? How is that situated in the broader scheme?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Exactly. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear yeah. How about the “Foundation” question?

Michael Bungay Stanier
For me, this is the hardest question to answer. Easy to ask, hard to answer. The question is: What do you want? Or you can turn this into self. What do I want? What’s interesting is that when you get clear on what you want, everything becomes easier. The path forward and things that are on the path forward become that much more obvious. It’s a really hard question to answer.

For instance, at Box of Crayons we’re just in this interesting transition phase where we’re growing a bit, we’re expanding our footprint about where we do work in the world. That’s all very exciting. The question I keep sitting with and asking myself is, so what do I want here, what do I want? In terms of what role I want to play at Box of Crayons, what role I play as its leader and its founder. It’s hard. I haven’t got an easy answer to that yet. It’s hard but it’s really useful to wrestle with that. I think that’s how the “Foundation” question can help everybody. If you’re feeling confused, or it feels like a pivot moment, or things are changing, or you feel a bit discombobulated, ask yourself what do I want here, what do I really want? You’ll find that sitting with that and finding an answer will open up new insights.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful, thank you. To wrap it up, what’s the “Learning” question about?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Good. One of my favorite definitions of what coaching is comes from a guy called John Whitmore. He’s an older dude in the UK. He wrote a book called Coaching for Performance. It’s really one of the foundation textbooks in coaching. What John says is that coaching is helping people to learn, rather than teaching them. To do this, you have to understand how people learn. Just as I said before, people don’t learn when you tell them stuff. They don’t even learn when you do stuff. They learn when they have a moment to reflect on what just happened.

The “Learning” Question is: At the end of a conversation you ask, what was most useful or what was most valuable here for you? To the people listening to this webinar right now, you reflect back on the conversation so far. We’ve been talking 30 minutes or so. What’s been most useful and most valuable here for you so far? Take the time to actually write it down. Pete, let me ask you. We’ve covered a lot of ground. What’s been most useful and most valuable for you?

Pete Mockaitis
What’s on your mind just feels so … It feels like I really got to do that right away. It feels like sometimes I think that I have to have some brilliantly, insightful Plato’s dialogue type questions to really get things going. What’s on your mind, will get us in the groove pretty quickly. I’m looking forward to just getting that going.

Michael Bungay Stanier
What’s happened with Pete’s 38 previous guests, he’s already forgotten almost everything that they told him. As interesting as those conversations were, the’ve gone in one ear and out the other. What’s going to happen because I’ve asked people what’s been most useful and most valuable so far, I’ve increased the odds that this question, what’s on your mind, is going to be remembered and practiced and used by Pete. I’ve created that aha moment for him. For everybody that’s listening in, you wrote down what was most useful and most valuable for you. At least you kind of identified it in your mind’s eye. It just means that there’s a better chance of it sticking with you. You’ll actually learn from it, you’ll actually change your behavior as a result of that. That becomes a very easy question that you can add to your own repertoire as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s so good. I’m thinking, I just kicked off another round of training. My Enhanced Thinking and Collaboration program which runs for 10 weeks. That is one of the homework pieces. After every module they submit, what did you find most useful and how do you intend to do something about it? I’m glad I’m using some best practice material without even knowing it.

Michael Bungay Stanier
The build in all of that would be to be thinking about, as you teach don’t just ask them at the very end what was most useful and most valuable. Ask them every 20 minutes or every 40 minutes or every hour as you go through the module. “Okay, so in the last hour we’ve covered a lot, out of everything we did cover what’s been most useful and most valuable for you so far?” Really help them on a regular basis stop and reflect on what’s just happened.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s handy. I think that is going to get in there. Thank you. That’s fun, always learning. Tell me Michael, is there anything else you want to make sure you put out there before we shift gears into the fast faves?

Michael Bungay Stanier
We’ve covered a lot. One of my mottos is, what’s the least I could teach that would be the most useful for people? I could keep coming up with more content and more stuff to apply but honestly if people have heard those questions … Maybe if they picked a favorite question. Maybe if they think in their head well I’ll turn that into a habit. Maybe if they’ve identified what’s already most useful for them. There’s already some good stuff landed there so let’s not muddy the water. Let’s just go with that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, onward then. Can you start us off by sharing what’s a favorite quote, something you find inspiring.

Michael Bungay Stanier
I’ll give you one from Pema Chodron. Pema Chodron, a Buddhist monk, American. She says, “Since death is certain and the time of death is uncertain, what’s the most important thing right now?” I love that. It’s like what do you want? I could die in three minutes time. It is certain that I will die. If I’m going to stay alive, how do I stay focused on the most important thing? I went through this exercise some years ago where I actually took … A guy [inaudible 00:32:25] Kevin Kelley inspired me to do this. Figured out using actuarial tables and the like, what my statistical date of death is. My statistical date of death is September 15, 2043. I’ve got another 27 years left on this planet. 27 years, Kevin Kelley says it’s about five years per major project that you work on. That means I’ve got five new major things that I get done in my lifetime left. What are they going to be? I’d better get on with that. That quote and that death date really helps me stay focused as best I can.

Pete Mockaitis
That is powerful. How about a favorite tool, whether it’s a piece of hardware or software or framework that you use to be more awesome?

Michael Bungay Stanier
One of my favorite tools the coffee tamp I have to make an espresso in the morning. We have an old fashioned espresso machine [inaudible 00:33:34]. You grind your coffee, it goes in the little thing and then how you push the coffee down really makes the difference between a good coffee and a mediocre espresso. I love espresso. For me, there’s something thoughtful and weighty about that. If you’re not a coffee drinker, I’m going to say one other thing. This is an app. There’s an app called Enso. E-N-S-O. It’s a great little meditation clock. One of the habits I’m trying to build and stick with is meditating a little bit in the morning. At the moment, I’m trying to meditate for eight minutes every morning. I love this as a little meditation chime timer, as way of trying to sit on a cushion and meditate a bit.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good, that’s good. Dan Harris in episode 44 really made quite the case for meditation that’s stuck with me as well. I’ve been trying to [crosstalk 00:34:31] some of that.

Michael Bungay Stanier
Here’s the thing. If you know anything about meditation, you go “This is as close to a silver bullet as you can get. To make you happier, to make you more focused, to make you less stressed.” If you can sit down and do it, it’s much harder than you think, it’s simple but it’s difficult. A bit like coaching. If you can do it, it’s going to improve your life. It just is.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. How about a favorite resonance nugget? Something that you share and that gets people Tweeting it at events or a Kindle book highlighting it in the digital version of your books. What’s something that really seems to connect with people that you teach?

Michael Bungay Stanier
One of my other books that has done well is called Do More Great Work. It came out in about five or six years ago. Its basic premise is that there’s three type of work you can do in this world. By work I mean everything. It’s not a bad work, waste of time, life sucking stuff. It’s of the good work which is probably your job description or it’s great work. Great work is the work that has more impact and the work that has more meaning. The thing that resonates because I talk about it in both the Coaching Habit book, the new one, and Do More Great Work takes us back to the “Strategic” question which is this … The nugget would be- your yes has no meaning unless it comes with a no that gives it shape and form. You’ve got to do the work to figure out what the no is, to make the yes real.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. What would you say is the best way to find you if folks want to learn about what you’re up to? Where would you point them?

Michael Bungay Stanier
Well there’s two places I can point. If you’re interested in the book, and you don’t have to even be interested in the book, you might just be interested in getting a ton of free resources around the book. The coachinghabit.com is a good place to go. There’s free videos, there’s free downloads. There’s all sorts of stuff there. Check that out if you’re curious about the book. I’ll ask a favor though. If you do happen to get a hold of the book, and there’s obviously no obligation to do that obviously enough, and you do actually read the book and you’re so moved. I would love it if you’d consider writing a review on Amazon. Partly it’s great feedback for me, partly my audacious goal is by March 1, 2017 to have 1,000 reviews on Amazon. That’s one of the hallmarks of what a classic book is. I really want this book to be considered a classic. There’s my call-to-action request if you like. If you’re interested more about our coaching programs and how they work in organizations. Boxofcrayons.biz you can find all sorts of stuff there as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Would there be a favorite challenge or parting call-to-action you’d issue to folks seeking to be more awesome at their jobs?

Michael Bungay Stanier
One of the key tools that we take from Do More Great Work is this idea of defining your great work project. Our basic assumption is at the moment everybody’s got too much good work. It’s the job description. There’s not enough great work. It’s the work that has more impact and the work that has more meaning. One of the greatest tools to bring the focus, and the courage, and the resilience you need to do more great work is by defining what your great work project is.

A project has a start and it has a finish. It’s like, “I’m going to work on this. I’m going to pour my energy, my focus, my enthusiasm, my reserves of relationship and intellect and finance into making this thing happen.” If you want to make your job awesome, which I equate to going “How do you get to do more great work in your job?”, defining what your great project might be. Instead of pushing forward a thousand little peanuts one at a time. You say, “This is it. When my boss gets into the elevator with me and she says “What are you working on?” this is what I’m going to tell them. This is the work that makes a difference, has the impact, and has meaning for me.” Defining that I think can be really powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well Michael this has been so much fun. I wish you lots and lots of luck with the Coaching Habit and getting to a thousand reviews and everything else you’re up to here.

Michael Bungay Stanier
My pleasure. Thanks for having me along today Pete.