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KF #27. Resourcefulness Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Jun 29
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1164: How to Pace Yourself for Success and Long-Term Thriving with Elizabeth Svoboda

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Elizabeth Svoboda shares expert tactics for finding the right pace to sustain your energy for the long haul.

You’ll Learn

  1. The subtle warning signs you’re overpacing
  2. How to structure your day for maximum energy
  3. How to streamline your day with selective mediocrity

About Elizabeth

Elizabeth Svoboda is an award-winning science writer and contributor to Scientific American, Discover, The Boston Globe, The New York Times, and other publications. Elizabeth is a winner of the Evert Clark/Seth Payne Award for Young Science Writers, and her work has been anthologized in the Best American Science and Nature Writing series. She lives in San Jose, California, with her husband and young sons.

Resources Mentioned

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Elizabeth Svoboda Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Elizabeth, welcome!

Elizabeth Svoboda
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Well, I’m excited to be chatting about The Art of Pacing. And congratulations, release day is here, now, the day of our recording. I bet that feels good.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yes, it’s surreal, but it feels great. I’m kind of riding the wave here and hoping it lasts, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Super. Well, so tell us, could you share, for starters, a super surprising or particularly fascinating discovery you’ve made about pacing as you’re doing your research and putting this all together here?

Elizabeth Svoboda
So the genesis of this book was I started having some interesting conversations with, like, high-level coaches, Olympic athletes. And the thing that surprised me the most at first was, well, number one, just how seriously they took the business of pacing, which meant taking much more rest and much longer periods of recovery than most of us actually allow ourselves on a day-to-day basis.

Like, we all kind of have this stereotype in our heads of, like, the Olympic athlete who’s toiling from the break of dawn until the sun goes down, but it is just not reality at all.

And so having these discussions, I started to think, “What if we could all start to pace ourselves as thoughtfully, as deliberately, as these athletes who, again, are amazing or doing world-level things? And what would that produce for us in our lives?”

And I think that initial element of surprise was really what helped propel the entire book forward.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is striking to think about in an athletic context. And you could see it elsewhere. I’m thinking there was a podcast, I think it was Father Mike Schmitz. He’s a priest, and he was telling a story about even if you’re saving the world.

Like, let’s take a look at some nuns who are actually, like, saving the world, they’re right up in there in the midst of poverty and, like, doing the good-est of things, right, you could imagine. And their order of life, it’s locked in there. Rest, prayer, dinner.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Totally. And, especially, in the context of service or somebody like a nun, somebody who is really devoted to that, you have to be, like, healthily selfish in a way. Just like they say on the airplane, you got to put on your own oxygen mask before you serve others.

And when you see these nuns with these schedules that they take their rest time, maybe they take their naps, 45 minutes every single afternoon, that is them tending to what they need before they tend to other people.

And I think, from the outside, we kind of see it as the other way around, like they’re doing all these amazing unselfish things, but the fact is, in order to be able to do those unselfish things over a sustained period of time, they’ve got to keep pouring into themselves.

And I think I knew that intellectually before I started writing this book, but the research really does support that. And so I believe it even more strongly now.

Pete Mockaitis
And, well, in a totally different context, I’m thinking about parenting and how that can be so often brutally exhausting, in that, like, if there’s not thoughtful, plan-ful moments, it’s like these precious little ones will take every minute there is.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Exactly. And to be honest with you, like, my kids are a little older now, they’re 10 and 13, but I was very overwhelmed, especially when they were at that toddler stage, like when one was 18 months, the other was, like, four, and I was just going crazy at times.

And so one of my sort of impromptu pacing strategies that I devised at that time, and I worked it this out with my husband, but I was, like, “I need to take, like, a 24-hour retreat. Here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to get a hotel. I’m going to check in, like, early afternoon one day. And I am going to do two things.”

“I’m just going to sleep. And then I’m also going to work on, like, the writing passion projects that I haven’t had time for, that I’ve really been wanting to dive into and haven’t.” And so for that entire 24-hour period, that’s exactly what I did. Like, I alternated between the writing and the resting or just conking out.

And at the end of that, I was shocked how much of a difference it made for me, especially after being immersed in, like, kid world, kid universe constantly. I just felt so refreshed and so restored. And, honestly, I’ve been doing a few of these every year ever since.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s fantastic. I recall a good friend and listener of the show, Lisa, they said, “What do you want for your birthday?” And she said, “I want 24 hours completely by myself.” And she did. She got a hotel and it was everything she hoped it would be.

So, well, those are cool perspectives. I think we can resonate naturally with the notion of, “Yeah, sometimes you feel overworked and tired and stressed, and rest is really great.” So I think it might be easy to overlook it, or overlook the importance of it.

Could you share with us a story of someone who figured out this pacing thing and kind of what the before-versus-after picture looked like for them?

Elizabeth Svoboda
Well, I learned so much about pacing when I spent a day with the Olympic middle distance runner Ajee Wilson, and I love her pacing philosophy. It’s something that she calls rigid flexibility. So, obviously, she has these very important, like these kind of non-negotiable things that she wants to accomplish each day. That’s the rigid part of it.

So every day, she does a pretty intense, two-, two-and-a-half-hour practice session, like all different lengths of runs, taking these little micro breaks in between, but really, really intense. But then what she does after that, and this is where the flexibility element comes in. You know, I kind of asked her, “Well, what do you do at the end of your long practice every day? Like, do you have a hobby? Do you go out with friends? Like what do you do?”

And she’s, like, “You know, this might sound kind of boring, but to be honest with you, I crash out. I will often take a really long afternoon nap.” And maybe we don’t all need, like, that two-, three-hour nap, but I think what was really striking to me is she was taking the amount of rest that was sort of commensurate with, or that matched, the intensive effort that she put in.

And so you had this rigidity, like you do have to do this thing, that this is a non-negotiable this practice, but you are putting way more padding and way more flexibility around that, and way more recovery than most of us typically do.

And I think that we can also adopt this approach at work. Like, obviously, not all of us are world-level, Olympic-level athletes, but, you know, let’s say you have a work project that you absolutely have to get done this week. Like, that’s the non-negotiable thing.

So, sure, like, you commit to putting in some time on it each day, but you give yourself a big cushion. Like, you give yourself a lot of recovery time between work blocks. And when you’re not working, you do something that’s as completely unrelated to what you’re doing at your desk as you can.

Because, you know, just scrolling your phone in between times, that’s not going to cut it, that’s not going to restore you, that’s not going to give you any energy. Like, actually get out into the world. Like, meet a friend, do something in “meatspace,” I guess, some video game players call it.

So I think that this rigid flexibility is something that, as I observed Ajee, I was determined to create my own version of that. And I think she learned that, too, through tough experience. Like, world-level athletes, they all, many of them, anyway, have this tendency to go above and beyond. They want to push, push, push. They want to do more.

But for her, she found that when she pushed too hard, and when she didn’t give herself enough time for recovery, she would come up with an overuse injury at the very worst minute, like right before the biggest competition of the year.

So I think, as an athlete, you sort of learn these things in a very visceral way. And that’s a very memorable lesson.

But, you know, those of us who aren’t athletes, maybe sometimes it takes us a little bit longer to learn that, because we can keep going through the motions of our day for a long time, even though we are still crashing out inside.

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s well said, it takes us a while to learn that. I’m thinking about my sweet mother, and whenever I got really cranky about something disproportionately, and this was well through my teenage years, she would ask me if I was hungry. And, in a way, I kind of didn’t like it.

I was like, “I’m not hungry. I’m mad about this thing.” She’s like, “Yeah, I understand that. But, also, you know, when was the last time you ate?” I was like, “I don’t know, maybe like nine hours ago.” She’s like, “Okay, well, how about we have a little break and eat something?”

And so, I’m like a 17-year-old here, you know, I think I’m almost a man. And, yeah, I was slow to learn that. And, likewise, I think I was slow to learn, even as a young adult in the workplace, it’s like, “Hmm, I find that I’m substantially grouchier and less enthusiastic about all the ‘boring’ ‘BS’ I have to deal with if I’m properly rested.”

If I have enough sleep, I am able to appreciate, “Well, you know what? There’s something kind of interesting about this task. And it makes some sense that I’m being asked to do this, even though it’s not quite how I would do it. I kind of hear where they’re coming from.”

I was just much more understanding and cheerful and interested. And for me, again, it’s also subtle. It’s, like, “What is enough?” Like, the difference between 5.6 hours of sleep and 6.8 hours of sleep doesn’t seem all that substantial. Maybe an episode or two of Netflix at night. And yet, for me, I found that really will show up.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yeah, like, one thing that really was driven home to me so many times in researching this book is there are certain physical states that are not conducive to clear thinking or reasonable thinking at all.

And so, yeah, getting not enough sleep might be one of those things. But just like if your nervous system is in a super activated state, you’re going to be having all these squirrelly thoughts all the time, “Oh, I screwed this up. I screwed that up.”

And a lot of that, I mean, I think we tend to believe everything our brains are telling us, like, take that as the gospel truth. But what I have learned, I think, through direct experience as somebody who tends to get spun up in this particular way, is that when you get your body into a more settled state, your mind actually will follow.

And sometimes it’s hard to remember that at the precise moments when you’re feeling the most spun up. But that said, it is absolutely true, and if you just sort of persist. And, you know, there are sort of spin-down practices that work better for different people.

Like, I’m pretty much a terrible meditator. Like, I do not have that kind of focus. And so I do deeper breathing, like a specific breathing tactic that a psychiatrist taught me called modulation breathing. But, yeah, for you it might be meditation, it might be like walking meditation, you take a walk outdoors.

But the point is, whatever it is for you that gives you that feeling that, “Okay, I’m starting to spin down now. And let’s see, let’s give a more objective reading on this situation. Like, what is really true here?” And you’re going to be much more likely to come to terms with what’s happening. And it might not be great, but, like, you’re just coming to terms with what’s happening.

And then, “What can I realistically do about it?” And it is really, really hard to do that sort of essential assessment process if you were in that monkey-mind squirrelly state. So I would say, like, the first thing, tend to the physical spin-up before you try to get into the deeper thought and make the next best decision.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is shocking how much that state, the emotional weather or vibe, and the internal weather going on there, has a profound impact on our decision-making, and we’re often unaware of it.

I mean, I think we know. Okay, if I’m enraged and I want to fire that person, maybe now is not the time. I should probably think about that before I just lash out. That’s probably a smart move. So I think we’re aware of that.

But I think the subtler shades of emotion are also coloring our decision-making, what we think is true versus false, or a wise move, or an unwise move. And I think, for many of us, it can pass right by our awareness and we don’t even know how much that’s influencing us. That’s just a theory, a hypothesis, my own experience. Has your research revealed some of these things?

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yes, I was just thinking, that is exactly right. And so I’ve come to see these spin-down tactics, whether it’s the breathing or whatever gets you into that more centered state. Like, it’s not just a good short-term pacing tactic that allows you to get through the day. It’s a good long-term pacing tactic.

Because once you’re in that more centered state, you are going to make decisions that serve your present and future self long term.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And, again, I think that we can forget about all kinds of little things in the, like, “Oops. oh, I haven’t had any water or beverage for six hours. Oopsie! And I’m a little thirsty, but that’s probably not causing me to be super irritable. Well, maybe it very well is, you know.”

So the squirrelly state, that’s a good turn of phrase. What are some of, perhaps, the subtle yet reliable signs we should be on the lookout for, like, “Oh, maybe I’m in the squirrelly state, and it would be better to do some of the spin-down stuff”?

Elizabeth Svoboda
For me, what it is, like, I won’t have any trouble getting to sleep at night, but I will just bolt upright in bed at 4:30 a.m. and my heart will be pounding, like, to beat the band.

And after that happens, as you can imagine, it’s really, really difficult for me to get back to sleep at all after that. And I’m just like, I’m just spun up. And I remember talking to a psychologist about how this happens to me.

And he’s, like, “Yeah, this is what happens. Like, if you are in a more chronic or a more elevated stress state, that burst of cortisol that normally would just wake you up more gently, it’s going to pile on top of all this cortisol you’ve already got going, and it is going to give you a jolt like you wouldn’t believe.”

“And you’re going to have, like, this fear signal. It’s, like, you’re not afraid of anything in particular, but it’s, like, you don’t even know where this fear signal is coming from. You just sit up and you feel terrified.” And so, for me, that is a major red flag. That is a warning sign.

But, you know, for you, it might be something a little bit different. It’s when you start skipping meals, or forgetting to drink, or just not feeling hungry or thirsty, that is often a sign that your system, for whatever reason, it’s trying to deal with whatever crisis it perceives is right in front of you, or on the horizon, instead of just tending to the boring daily things that you have to do to get yourself through the day.

So when you notice those signs, and if you’re listening, you probably have some idea what these signs might be for you, that is really a warning, like, “I need to pause here. I need to maybe do a little bit more spinning down. And then I need to ask myself, like, ‘Okay, what’s the next wise choice? Like, what do I need in this moment? And how can I fulfill that need?’”

And it might be something super mundane. It might be just like taking your water cup and just sticking it under the tap and making sure you get a couple swallows of water in your mouth. But I think a lot of us are not alert to those earlier warning signs until it’s kind of too late, and we get into a full-fledged bout of depression, full-fledged burnout, and that is just really, really dangerous territory.

There was one study that really shocked me when I came across it, and it was about, like, 200 people, and they were diagnosed with exhaustion, which is basically like a burnout state, and they received initial treatment for that.

But then they followed those people up for several years after the initial exhaustion, and they found that fully a third of them still qualified as exhausted, as basically burned out. And so the fact is once we sort of crash, we can kind of limp along in this languishing, in this burned out state for years on end.

Like, you kind of think it’s going to go away once it happens. Well, if you don’t tend to it, if you don’t make real steps to, like, refill your tank, it is going to persist. And I think a lot of us don’t like to admit that to ourselves but it’s true.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so when it comes to refilling the tank, I think folks are perhaps quick to dismiss that, like, “Okay, yeah, I know that’s good, and maybe I’ll do that later after this project, after this move, after…” whatever. And so do you have any pro tip, research-backed suggestions for, “Ah, science suggests that this is a super rejuvenating spinning-down move, you know, per minute required of your life”?

Elizabeth Svoboda
Well, I mean, of course, if you can take a longer break from work, that is a great thing to do. But that said, I know a lot of us are in a position where that is just not available to us. Like, maybe we just started working at a particular company, we’re not quite senior yet, and we don’t feel like we can make a request to take a month off, right?

And in those situations, what has been really helpful, I think, for me, is a practice that I call energy management. And I’ve talked with a number of athletes, too, who use this. And as far as the biggest bang for your moment of effort, it’s hard to beat, and it’s very simple to start.

Like, what you do is you identify which times of day that you naturally tend to be most alert or most focused. So for some people, like, for me, it’s around mid morning, anywhere from like 10 until 12:30 or whenever I break for lunch.

But for other people, it might be afternoon, or for some creative types, sometimes it’s like late at night. And then what you do is you plan your most mentally demanding, like, work that matters the most that day to coincide with those natural energy peaks.

And so all it is is about aligning your toughest efforts with the moments when they’re naturally going to feel the least effortful. So it’s like your body is going to kind of give you these waves. Like, if you think about a surfer, the surfer waits for the wave before they try to ride it.

And so you are riding your energy peaks as you know they tend to come up. And then after lunch, like a lot of us have a huge energy slump, and that is totally normal. It’s to do with digestion and a bunch of other things.

And so if you can’t take a full traditional Siesta-style break at that time, you can still sort of downshift by doing something that’s a lot less demanding.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, yes. So identify those moments. And I’m thinking, for me, what’s more obvious is the moment I am the opposite of super alert, and it is almost exactly 1:45 p.m. Central Time, and regardless of how much I slept, what time I woke up, whether I had a delicious latte, even shortly before that, or whether I ate, whether I ate a lot, whether I ate a little, no matter what, right around then is, like, “Oh, I am sleepy.”

And it’s just great to know. And I actually try to get at least 10 minutes of straight up, literally, in a bed during that zone because it just feels so right in terms of, “It’s lined up, having a power nap would be great, generally, and this is the ideal time I might do that.” So I pull that off most days.

Elizabeth Svoboda
And that is amazing, and I would say, yeah, if you can get away with doing that, taking that 10-minute nap under your desk, or whatever you need to do, do it because that is going to give you a boost like you wouldn’t believe, and it can even help ease you into your next energy peak.

Like, for me, I tend to have not the highest energy peak, but, like, a smaller one starting around 4:30 in the afternoon. It’s funny, and sometimes I have, like, a little shot of espresso just to kick this off a little bit more.

But, like, at that time I know I can go writing, I can go deep into the creative stuff for about an hour before the hangry starts to sort of get the best of me. And I’m like, “Okay, I think that this is a good time to break now.” So look for those smaller peaks, too, in addition to those, to the lulls and the bigger peaks.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Okay. And we had Dr. Michael Breus on the show, he’s a sleep doctor, talking about your chronotype. You may naturally be an early-morning person or a late-night person. And his suggestion is, to the extent that’s possible, try not to fight it and see if your family, workplace can accommodate you as as much as you can, because it can be pretty tough being a night owl in an early-bird’s world.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yeah, exactly. And if you’re doing shift work and things like that, it’s just very, very difficult, too. It’s basically asking you to find a peak at a time when you normally would not find that. And the research shows that if you’re trying to do that, maybe like for a month you can get through it, but if it’s like years on end like that, where you’re forcing yourself past your natural chronotype, you are going to have more chronic disease burden, the health issues that are associated with that are just going to build up.

And so, yeah, as much as possible, like, ride those natural energy waves, catch them when they happen, and don’t beat yourself up when they’re not there because everybody is going to have sort of those fallow periods, those lie-flat periods in their day.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, you’ve got a fun term of a phrase, ludic loop. What is that?

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yeah, so this is something that actually happens to us, a lot of us anyway, when we get into this trance of scrolling our feeds or clicking for the next notification online. And the term ludic loop, it actually came from some research that an anthropologist did.

And what she was studying was actually slot machine gamblers. So these people who were sitting in front of their machines, like, over and over in this trance, just pushing the lever over and over again. And then what some other research shows is that when you are doing these repetitive things, you are often getting a little bit of a dopamine burst associated with that.

And it’s not just from doing the thing itself, it’s from the anticipation of what’s coming next. So you might be getting a dopamine burst when you click on your notifications, and that’s because you’re anticipating, “I’m going to get a new message. Somebody is going to like my post,” or whatever it is.

And that’s okay, like, as far as it goes, but it just tends to draw us into these endless loops of consumption. Like, we get the dopamine burst, and that kind of motivates us to keep scrolling until we get the next dopamine burst, and the next, and the next. And so it’s kind of a very shallow engagement.

What happens, just like at the slot machine, people get up from the seats after five hours and are like, “What just happened to the last five hours of my life?” I think a lot of us have had that experience, whether we’re scrolling Instagram, scrolling TikTok, like, “What just happened to that last 45 minutes? Like, what kind of went down the hole there that I’m never going to get back?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and I always wonder, “How can I use that for good?” It doesn’t seem to happen to me when I’m folding laundry or processing email, unfortunately.

Elizabeth Svoboda
I mean, if you’re familiar with the flow state, like deep creative engagement, I think of the online scrolling as a sort of shallow flow because it’s like a passive flow where you’re not engaging, you’re not making any progress, you’re really not contributing.

And so what I tell people is if you’re going to try and swap out some of that sort of shallow flow, that shallow scrolling time, find something that you know helps you get into a deeper flow. So if you’re a writer like me, it might be working on your latest story. If you play an instrument, even just getting into practice, a lot of people get into this deep flow.

And the great thing about flow is it’s, again, a state that makes you feel like you’re hanging onto a tow rope and you’re getting pulled along, like you are enjoying the process so much that it’s easier to keep going than it is to be allowed.

So, yeah, like, replacing that shallow flow with deeper flow, that’s going to be the best thing because then you’re not going to feel like you’re at loose ends, like, “Oh, well, now I’m not scrolling. What am I going to do instead?”

Once you’re in that flow, that question is going to be answered for you. You’re going to be so engaged that you’re just going to want to keep going.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. All right. Well, Elizabeth, tell us, what are some of your favorite tactics that are just fantastic for this?

Elizabeth Svoboda
One thing that has been really fun and really freeing for me is practicing selective mediocrity. And I, first, heard Whitney Casares, she’s a doctor, she’s on Instagram, she was talking about this.

And so basically what selective mediocrity is, is you are choosing, you’re deciding, like, “I’m going to do all these different things in my day, and I’m just going to do an adequate job at them. Like, I’m going to be just okay. Like, I’m going to send the one-line email if it answers the questions, and this five-paragraph thing that somebody sent to me.”

“I’m going to blitz through this project evaluation if I’m pretty sure that my manager is just going to skim it for five seconds and then put in the pile on his desk,” right? And so it’s about giving yourself permission to streamline in that way, to do just enough, like, just good enough, but don’t do more than good enough.

This is what one psychiatrist told me, like, he tells his clients, like, “Don’t do more than good enough unless you’re just totally passionate about the thing that you’re doing.” And when you do that streamlining, then you’re going to have more energy to put into the things that matter the most to you that you really absolutely care the most about doing your best at.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you give us some top examples of these are great candidates for being selectively mediocre at?

Elizabeth Svoboda
At work, it’s just kind of there is so much busy work that so many of us have to do, whether it’s, like, a survey, a progress report. And I’m not saying, like, blow it off entirely, but it really is okay to, like, set the timer for five minutes and just make a goal, like, “I’m going to get through this in five minutes. And if I’m done, I’m just going to be done and I’m going to turn this in. I’m not going to obsess over it for 20 minutes or half an hour,” not that I have ever done this kind of thing in my life.

But just like that kind of stuff, that kind of cruft that accumulates in the corners of your work life, your everyday life, that is the kind of stuff that just be selectively mediocre and embrace that. And it’s just so freeing and it gives you a feeling of power, I think, too.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a very nice piece to highlight there because I would say, busy work, I mean, whenever there is a process in which you suspect your input is not all that mission critical, I think is a great place to be selectively mediocre.

Like, sometimes, this is me, I love human development and learning and growth and improvement, right? And so if I get a survey, it’s like, “Oh, you know what? I would relish the opportunity to serve you by sharing with you as much insightful, actionable feedback as possible. So let me really just…”

Yeah, I’ve done this before. I have gone deep. And then you wonder, it’s like, “Will anyone ever actually read and ponder this? Or is it just sort of like, ‘Yeah, it’s on the checklist. Send out the survey.’”

Elizabeth Svoboda
And to be honest with you, like, a human may not even be reading that. It’s probably going to get scanned through ChatGPT or whatever. So why do we do this to ourselves, yeah?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, tell me, Elizabeth, any final do’s and don’ts here with regard to pacing?

Elizabeth Svoboda
One of the things that I always sort of stress to people is pacing, it’s not just like a one-time thing, like, “Okay, here’s my pacing plan. Here’s what I’m going to do this week. Here’s what I’m going to do this month. Let’s have ChatGPT optimize that for me.”

It’s a lot more fluid than that. It’s sort of a process of ongoing noticing what’s going on and being responsive to that. Like, checking in maybe more often with yourself than most of us typically do, like, “Where am I now? Where am I actually headed? What direction am I heading in? And what adjustments or what pace changes can I make that are going to be most likely to get me there?”

And even that finish line, don’t be surprised if that starts to evolve as well. Like, you might have a certain goal right now, and for you in this moment, that’s a really meaningful finish line in what you’re pacing yourself toward.

But as you get more knowledge, as you get more experience, that may change, that may evolve in ways that are sort of a happy surprise to you. So I think just sort of being open to that and just knowing that fluidity and flexibility are really at the core of what it means to pace yourself in a smart way.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Elizabeth Svoboda
So I love, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Father Greg Boyle, who founded the Homeboy Industries. It’s like a gang rehabilitation program in LA. And he says, “Systems change when people change. They’re bite-sized moments to be able to reflect back to people the truth of who they are. Then you watch them become that truth and they extend that truth to other people.”

And so that resonates so much for me because part of what I outline as a good pacing strategy is becoming skilled at finding those bite-sized moments to remind people of what you see in them, the potential that you see in them, and where they’re headed.

And in the book, I call them brief candle moments, and creating those is so fulfilling. If you are the initiator, or if you’re the recipient, and it may not be a long time.

It may be like two or three minutes, but you learn something in those moments that you look back 30 years down the line, and you’re like, “If I hadn’t heard that in this moment, my life might look very different than it does right now.”

So just those trajectory shifting moments that you can create for other people, like, that is going to be enormously fulfilling to you, and that is certainly something that I try to put into play as part of a longer-term pacing strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, boy, I remember that’s resonating. Back in episode 14 with Dr. Marcia Reynolds, she made me cry when she told a story when she turned 20 in jail, and someone there just said to her, “You have no idea who you are,” and talked about how she was so smart and courageous, and she had all these opportunities and advantages and strengths and things she could do. And she just felt really seen. And, bam! It really was transformational, sharing that piece in that moment.

Elizabeth Svoboda
That is incredible. And, yeah, people often do get emotional when they recall these moments. And so I was a volunteer in a mentoring program one time, and I knew this guy named Tom. And Tom was, like, a retired guy in his 60s, but he was the best person that I know at offering these moments to other people.

So the kids in this program, they were sort of in this category that, at the time, was called Youth at Risk. Maybe some of them had been in trouble with the law, they were having trouble at school, they were just struggling in different ways.

And Tom, he just had this way of offering these brief candles of really conveying to somebody in this capsule that packed a punch of, like, what he saw in them, the potential that he saw, all the things that he loved about who they were.

And I just watched it transform them, and I’m kind of getting emotional thinking about it because if we could all be a little bit more like Tom, I think the world would be a much better place.

Pete Mockaitis
This also reminds me of “The Lion King.” And no spoilers, anyone, it’s been out for a while. But when Simba sees his dad in the stars, “Remember who you are,” I mean, that’s powerful stuff. That’s powerful stuff.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yeah. And, like, people don’t realize. Like, you can really give this to somebody, and it’s like this infinite thing that you’re giving them, and it’s going to take two minutes of your time. And I think if that came home to more of us, we would all be looking for these opportunities on a daily or, like, an hourly basis because that’s the impact that they can have.

Pete Mockaitis 
A favorite habit?

Elizabeth Svoboda
It’s a practice that’s in the research, it’s called resonance frequency breathing, but I’ve come to call it modulation.

And so what it involves is actually breathing at a pace in which there’s the greatest variability between the way your heart rate speeds up as you breathe in, and then slows down as you breathe out. And so if you’re a fitness gadget person, you might’ve heard about heart rate variability.

And so breathing at this pace, which for most people is about five breaths a minute, that is going to get your heart rate variability in the highest possible place. And that is going to facilitate you getting into that calmer state faster.

And I had a really crazy experience when I first tried this type of breathing. It was in the office of a psychiatrist, Joe Arpaio, who teaches modulation to his patients. And so what he did, like, he clipped a little heart rate monitor on my finger, and he had me do my modulation breathing. For me, it was like 5.2 breaths per minute. Do that for about five minutes.

And I was watching, like on his laptop screen, there was like a little tracing, and where my heart tracing started out like real jaggedy and unpredictable, they were just slowly relaxing into these smooth, these more like S-shaped sine waves, showing that my heart rate variability was improving.

And at the end of those five minutes, Dr. Joe, he turned to me and he was, like, “You know what? You just calmed yourself down way faster than if I had taken an IV sedative and I pushed it into your arm right now.”

And it really struck me because I had gone into that day pretty, pretty skeptical. I mean, we all hear about, like, different breathing practices, and we try different things that we read about in magazines, and maybe it doesn’t really work for us. But for me, sustaining that about five, 5.2 breaths per minute for…you got to stick with it for more than 30 seconds. It’s got to be, like, three, four, five minutes.

But you can do it alongside everything else in your life. Like, I do it all the time when I’m waiting at red lights or when I’m chopping up the food for dinner. Like, it kind of weaves around just the daily practices that you’re already doing.

And so I can attest that this really does work, and it really is better than taking sedatives and hoping for the best.

Pete Mockaitis
No, that’s awesome stuff, yes. And there are apps, even the Calm app on the free, before you subscribe, will give you four seconds in, six seconds out, which approximates that, or as well as Elite HRV with a heart rate strap will give you that kind of a visual experience if you’re into it. So that’s real. That’s my experience.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Yeah, I love Elite HRV too. Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Elizabeth Svoboda
I’m kind of obsessed with An Interrupted Life by Etty Hillesum. Now not a lot of people have heard of this, but, basically, what it is, it’s a collection of diaries and letters that were written by a Dutch Jewish woman during World War II.

And over the course of these diaries and these letters, you see very clearly how she evolved over time from somebody who was pretty anxious, very self-focused, like always getting spun up, as we’ve been calling it. And she really evolved into somebody who was so dedicated to service. And it’s sort of, I mean, I feel like I’m nowhere near being there yet, but it still, it gives me hope that all of us might be able to evolve, at least in that direction, no matter what craziness is happening around us.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Elizabeth Svoboda
I have been spending a fair amount of time on Instagram these days. My username is svobodster, so that’s S-V-O-B-O-D-S-T-E-R. It was a nickname given to me in fifth grade by my best frenemy. So there you have it. Also, you can find me at my website, ElizabethSvoboda.com, and I do have a beehiiv newsletter as well called “The Art of Pacing.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Elizabeth Svoboda
If you find yourself during the day in mental overload or just in the midst of a crisis that really caught you off guard, first, just take a few minutes to do your spin-down.

And then once you reach that state where you’re feeling a little bit calmer, ask yourself, “What’s the wise choice here?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Elizabeth, thank you.

Elizabeth Svoboda
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s been a blast.

Apr 20
0

1147: How to Optimize Your Space to Thrive with Leidy Klotz

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Leidy Klotz shares simple shifts for creating more spaces that improve well-being.

You’ll Learn

  1. The three core needs that well-designed spaces meet
  2. How to feel in control of spaces you can’t control
  3. How to harness the “home turf” advantage anywhere

About Leidy

Leidy Klotz is a behavioral scientist and engineering professor at the University of Virginia who studies how and why humans design. He has written for the Washington Post, Fast Company, Scientific American, and Harvard Business Review; has published his work in top journals like Nature and Science; and has been interviewed on Hidden Brain, Freakonomics, Mindscape, and The Atlantic’s How to Build a Happy Life. Klotz has advised clients ranging from the Departments of Energy and Homeland Security to CapitalOne and Amazon.

Resources Mentioned

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Leidy Klotz Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Leidy, welcome back!

Leidy Klotz
Thanks, Pete. It’s great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your latest work, In A Good Place. Last time, we were talking about subtraction and how that can enrich our lives. Now we’re talking about locations. Could you kick us off with a particularly surprising or fascinating discovery you’ve made about this stuff?

Leidy Klotz
One of the things, when I was going through the research for location, that just struck me was there’s a study of nursing home residents, and they found that in the study that they did, one group of residents was able to, like, customize their space and another group was not.

And then they came back to the people 18 months later, and of the people who couldn’t customize their space, they were 50% more likely to be dead. Like, we all know that space is important, right? But the degree to which it was important in that case was really striking to me.

Pete Mockaits
Yeah. Well, that’s so fascinating and alarming. And what’s interesting is that customizing your space, boy, it’s almost like that’s hitting multiple key human needs all at once, you know? Like, autonomy, agency control, as well as, like, beauty and mobility.

Leidy Klotz
Growth and, like, learning, right? You’re learning how you like it. You’re learning that you can move things around in the world. So, yeah, all of those things. I think that probably with the nursing home study, a lot of it had to do with kind of agency and feeling like you still have a say in the world around you. But, yeah, so it’s not a trivial thing to be able to interact with your surroundings.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and part of me is wondering, and I’m sure we’ll get here, many of us have the ability to customize our space, but maybe we haven’t thought to bother much. Can you make the case? So if we’re not in nursing homes, we’re living our lives in homes whether owned or rented, as well as workplaces, offices, what’s kind of at stake with us thoughtfully optimizing these spaces versus just going with the flow?

Leidy Klotz
Yeah, I think it really comes down to whether or not our core psychological needs are met. And like you said, these core psychological needs, basically agency, growth or competence, and connection. And these are all things, right, that we hope we get at work and everywhere else.

And we think about them as important, but we often think about them in terms of, you know, tasks that we’re doing. The original way that we met these needs was through our interactions with our surroundings, right?

If you think back to our ancestors trying to survive against predators and the elements, the ones that were compelled to shape their surroundings to provide shelter, the ones that were compelled to figure out how their surroundings work, were more likely to survive and become us.

So these are like long-standing, deep-rooted psychological needs that we have, and we can meet them in other ways, not just in our surroundings, but we still can meet them right there in our surroundings. So that’s the case. It’s like here’s this amazing opportunity that we have all around us that we can take advantage of to thrive.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, let’s talk about these three needs. This reminds me of self-determination theory. I’ve heard of different adjectives used for these three components. Tasha Eurich talked about some of this in her book Shatterproof, which was rather potent. So can you expand on these?

Leidy Klotz
Yeah, and I’m so glad you brought up self-determination theory. Sometimes people don’t want to know the theory. The theory is really important here because this isn’t just Leidy’s research figuring this out. This is decades of people studying this across different contexts in different cultures. And self-determination theory is, like, the best understanding of motivation that we have and agency.

So this is our ability to have a say in our surroundings, so the ability to do something about the world around us, that’s agency. Competence is actually doing it, right? So competence is showing other people that we can affect change in the world around us or that we can interact with the world around us.

And then connection is maybe the easiest one to understand, you know, connecting with other people, but also just connecting with something bigger than ourselves. And that’s, you know, spaces are part of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you tell us a story of someone in a professional context who had an okay space, but they thoughtfully put some effort into making it extra awesome and what happened for him?

Leidy Klotz
I’ll give you an extreme story. So Nelson Mandela, we know that he was imprisoned on Robben Island. And one of the things that I learned he did there, obviously, you’re incredibly constrained with your agency when you’re imprisoned.

But when he was in prison, he found a space on the roof that was bathed all day in sunlight, he wrote. And he negotiated with the guards to be able to have a garden up there and then go up and tend to the garden.

And obviously, Mandela is one of these people who you think of never getting rid of his agency no matter what, right? Even when he was in prison, he was still campaigning and getting information out, but he also exercised the agency in his surroundings, right?

And I think we’re not, hopefully, imprisoned but when you find your agency being constrained in one way, like, I’m like everybody else. I’m in an office. I can’t just go tell my boss that I want a different office or that I want my space renovated overnight.

But if I’m frustrated by that, I can realize it and then find adjacent freedoms, right? I can go work somewhere else if it’s nice outside, or I can move the arrangement of my desk to face the window. And now, all of a sudden, I’m taking back control in that environment.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you share with us, what are some key shifts that can make a boatload of difference in our spaces?

Leidy Klotz
For me, the biggest one is, and this seems to resonate with people when I talk about it, is to make use of the spaces that we have available to ourselves, right? I’ll use myself again because this is a self-depreciating example.

I live in a house, I could work anywhere in that house, and I find myself sitting in the same chair and typing on my computer no matter what the task is, right? But if I think about it, I’m like, “Well, I could move over to this desk that’s facing the window, and write on a notebook when I need more creative ideas.”

I could shift my seating based on, you know, how my body feels. I could move throughout the day based on how the light’s moving. So there’s this example where I have all this space available to me, and just by my tried and true habits, I’m only using a small slice of it. And I think that’s a principle that can help everybody.

And we immediately jump to, “Okay, how do I change this space? How do I renovate this space?” And before we’ve thought about like, “Well, here are all the spaces where I could go. Let me make use of those before I start changing things.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I like that a lot. It’s funny, I have a camping chair that has a little bit of a recline and a swing, a rocking to it. But what’s really fun about it is, sure enough, you can put that anywhere in terms of, like, a park, by a window, in different zones of a backyard or front yard.

And I don’t often think that I have that option available to me. Although, there was a season in which it just lived in my trunk, and from time to time I was like, “You know what, I’m going to do my work over here now because I can.” And it’s a good feeling.

Leidy Klotz
Yeah, yeah, it’s good, because you’re comfortable, but also you made it, right? Like, you’re making the world how you want it to be. So I love that story because it’s very small, but you’re making your space in all these different places.

Pete Mockaitis
And sometimes, I’ve also had the experience, I’m thinking about, I’m just tidying up an area that’s long been untidy, and it really does feel like it’s meeting deep psychological needs because it’s, like, I’m finding like a deep sigh of rightness and peace.

And I’m not like a neat freak by any means. My wife and others can attest to this. And yet, when I go there, it’s often I’m surprised, like profoundly edifying. And I think Marie Kondo, she wrote a book with title, right, “The Life-changing Power, Magic of Tidying Up.”

Leidy Klotz
Yep, “The Life-Changing Magic.”

Pete Mockaitis
So, yeah, can you speak to this notion?

Leidy Klotz
There’s a lot going on there, but I think the number one thing is probably back to this, like, agency and competence, right? That psychologists, and I’m not a psychologist, but like one of the things that they’ll prescribe for depressed people is to say, like, “Hey, you just reorganize a room,” or, “Tidy up a room.”

And it’s not necessarily that the tidy room makes you less depressed. It’s that the act of feeling like you have control over some aspect of your life starts to make you feel better. And then, hopefully, that feeds on itself, so you feel you have control in tidying.

And then you realize, “Okay, I have control in these other ways,” and then you start to kind of get yourself back. So that’s probably the main thing that’s happening there. I also think that there’s some small bits and pieces.

You know, a tidy space is going to have less distraction, less cognitive load on you so you’re not coming in every time even if you’re not noticing. In my house, it’s shin guards and boxer briefs strewn about.

And even if you’re not noticing them, they’re, like, taxing you a little bit mentally. But the main thing is just, “Hey, I can do something about my situation.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay, so first point, principle, just use all the space available to us. We might just totally be forgetting, “Oh, yeah, I have all these options available, and I just never use them.” Where do we go from there?

Leidy Klotz
Well, and also I’ll just give one more. At work, right? Like, so many of our offices are designed to, you know, there’s your office or wherever you’re supposed to sit, but then there’s all these spaces that are meant for other things. And I think that, you know, we’re not fully taking advantage of those a lot of times.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, those architects and contractors were paid a pretty penny to get those in there and we’re not using them.

Leidy Klotz
And your bosses are thinking about it, right? They’re like, “How do we make this space so that people like it?” And yet, we never get past that barrier of, “No, you can actually use it.” Even something as simple as the conference room, right?

Like, every time you go into the conference room, technically, you could set it up differently for the meeting at hand. And yet, how often does that happen? Usually, you’re just accepting it the way that it should be.

But if you showed up 15 minutes early and set that conference room up, you’re getting a hit of agency, plus you can make sure that you’re sitting next to the people that it’s important to sit next to in the meeting. So there’s just a lot there.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, while I’m visualizing a conference room, what are some little tweaks that can enhance my experience of being in that conference room?

Leidy Klotz
Well, I mean, I think like there’s all the power dynamics stuff, you know? But I think everybody knows the kind of, “Put yourself in the position of power, and sit at the head of the table.” And I think most of what we’re trying to do in a conference room is, typically, kind of put people on equal footing.

And so, say you’re a boss, and you want to get people’s input in the meeting, don’t sit at the head of the table and maybe set up the room so that it kind of makes everybody feel like they’re sitting around a campfire where we’re all kind of equal. And then you will be more likely to get that input from people, right?

The conference room can be an example of this principle where, like, you’re saying one thing, and the space is saying something totally different. You’re saying, “Oh, we want all your input. It really matters.” And then you march in, sit at the head of the table, everybody else is just staring at you, and you control the slides. And do you really want people’s input? So I think that is one example.

Pete Mockaitis
So, Leidy, I should stop making every other seat in the conference room way shorter than my own? Because that’s what I do every time I go into a meeting. I should stop doing that?

Leidy Klotz
That trick is so hilarious. I mean, do it if you want to. It just depends. So it’s, like, move among the spaces we have access to. I think there’s another principle that’s, like, align the space with your goals. And sometimes the goal in the conference room is to be dominant.

Sometimes the goal in the conference room, hopefully, more often, is to have an exchange that helps everybody’s ideas move forward and get better. And so thinking about what those goals are and then lining the space up to suit it.

One of my favorite studies that’s, like, along these lines, there’s a study of negotiations and they wanted to see like Home Field versus Away turf negotiating. And this is, we know that location matters in negotiations. Diplomats will negotiate the location before they negotiate the treaty.

But the study was brilliant in its simplicity. All they did, they had two groups, the control and experimental group. In one group, they had sit in a room for 20 minutes, and then they had the other group come into that room to negotiate.

And the group that had been in the room for 20 minutes achieved better outcomes in the negotiations. That’s something that anybody can do. You can show up 20 minutes early for the meeting and just feel more at home. And, apparently, that is going to help. So, yeah, it’s powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
I have had that experience when I’m doing keynote speeches. It feels very nice to get into the room early, not just for the sound check, you know, AV stuff, all that, but even before those people are there, and to just walk through the whole space, and the seats, and just behold that large, empty space, and to feel like it is mine.

I don’t have any hard scientific evidence on it, but I really do feel more comfortable, confident, and ready to own the stage and the whole auditorium because it’s, like, “Oh, well, you are my guests because I was here first.”

Leidy Klotz
Yeah, no, that’s a great example. And you’ve probably done more of these than I have, but if I can’t do that, if I can’t have enough time to, like, totally take in the space, I’d rather be dropped in right at the end.

The worst situation is when you’re there for, like, 30 minutes and you’re watching the person before you, and you’re sitting in the audience and you don’t have enough time to kind of, like, fully appreciate the space, and then you have to run and jump up on the stage.

So the other option, I call it just kind of getting off the bus and play. Like, you go to the green room and then you just come out on the stage, and you know you’ve done your talk so many times that then you’re not, like, kind of inundated by these external forces in the space.

There’s science here. Probably the best science for yours and getting acclimated is, I mean, it’s not a scientific study, but all these sports teams, right? Their whole profession and livelihood and success depends on winning or losing. And they will all get there at least a day before the game and do a walkthrough on the court and try to make it as familiar as possible.

And then, on the other side, where if you don’t have time to kind of fully take it in, try to avoid the awkwardness of what’s happening when you come into a new space, is you’re trying to figure out the new space, right? Your brain is going to that.

And our brains have limited resources. And if our brain is trying to figure out the space while trying to think about how to deliver a keynote, it’s not going to go well. And so we want to not have the space taxing our mental resources when our job is to connect with other people, whether it’s from the stage or whether it’s in a conference room.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. What else should we be thinking about here?

Leidy Klotz
Growth. I think that growth or competence. So we’ve talked a little about agency and then connection. But growth is, like, we grow from interacting with our spaces. We learn. We were talking about kids earlier.

When you watch kids, as a parent, one of the most freeing things was to realize how much they were learning from the world around them, because I was worried that, “Okay, I’m going to have to describe to them how all this stuff works,” right? They just watch and they watch you, and then they interact with the world.

And so, maybe kids playing with a sand castle on the beach seems like they’re innately drawn to it. But, like, when my daughter is building a drip castle, for example, she’s learning about the fluid mechanics of the drip of the water.

She’s learning about material properties of sand and water mixed together. She’s learning about herself, right? She’s learning that, you know, if there’s some adversity, like her brother knocks down the castle, she can build it back and she’s going to feel good from overcoming that adversity. So this is, like, how we learn by interacting with the world and seeing what happens.

And I think we talked about screens last time. I think one of my favorite stories was yours, talking about subtracting TVs from the bedroom. And you can go back and listen to the subtract episode about why you would want to do that.

But so much of our life is on screens now which is convenient in a lot of ways, but when you’re navigating with your phone, for example, you’re not really taking in the city the same way you would be if you were trying to find it based on street addresses or just trying to walk based on directions that somebody gave you. And so we’ve engineered out a way that we might, otherwise, kind of learn about the world around us.

And I get that that’s probably an example where I’ll keep using my Google Maps because I want to just get there as quickly as possible. That’s convenient. But we’re also, then, engineering out these kind of opportunities to stretch our brains, and to work that learning muscle. And so I think growth through our spaces is something that we need to pay attention to.

Pete Mockaitis
So just the navigation in and of itself. What are some other ways we grow by interacting with our spaces?

Leidy Klotz
There’s the navigation. There’s the renovations that you talked about before, where if you are kind of setting up your space, and you’re realizing that, “Okay, that doesn’t work. I don’t like it, and I can change it back.” So now you’re learning things that you like and don’t like, but you’re also learning about yourself and that you can do these things.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I’m thinking a little bit back to my conversation with BJ Fogg on the show, and we’re talking about making things easier for behavior design. Like, if we make something easier, we’ll do more of it. And I notice, it’s so funny, in my office, which I really love, I found myself having a little bit of resistance to just going down and sitting in the chair and doing the work, even though, “Hey, I’ve got a great monitor. I’ve got a sit-stand desk.” It’s so good.

It’s like, “What’s the deal? This should be like the top place I want to sit and do work, instead of over on the couch on my sort of smaller screen laptop situation.” And I realized that my wheeling office chair, you know, the wheels on it, were getting kind of stuck in the carpet a bit, and so it requires a little bit of, “Ugh!” like, awkward effort to shimmy it out of the ruts to get into where I want.

Well, it’s funny because it’s a visceral thing. It’s a little thing, and yet, it’s something that can pass right through my conscious awareness, but have these associations. And so I said, “Well, by golly, I got to get a mat.”

And so I did, I got the mat. And now there is less resistance. And so I’m more likely to get in my battle station with all the goodies and the big monitors because, “Oh, there was a tiny thing missing, a mat under the rolling chair.”

Leidy Klotz
I’m so glad I couldn’t think of a story and you chimed in with yours that was much better than what I would have said. You’re also illustrating this beautiful concept of, like, how these principles that were originally physical principles.

Like, friction, right? How many people are talking about friction in the workplace when they’re talking about task completion and like removing friction or adding friction. You, literally, identified physical friction on the chair as the thing. So I think, yeah, and that’s a great tip that was one of the other ones is just like kind of removing constraints, right?

Like, thinking about your space and what are the constraints that are holding you back in that space. And that’s something. If you walk into the office on Monday morning, whether you’re an employee or the boss, you will find things that are constraining you that you can then remove immediately. In your case, you removed the friction and make your space better. That’s a beautiful example.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I like that a lot. And so now I’m thinking about, you know, it could be the temperature, it’s like, “Can I adjust that, or can I hold a cold bottle of water, or, like, have a little hot pad under my butt?” Or it could be the lighting, the temperature, the sound with noise canceling headphones and/or earplugs. What are some other constraints that show up that we might want to do something about?

Leidy Klotz
I think there are unwritten constraints, too, where you kind of assume that this space is for that thing, and then you don’t question it. This is probably less about in your home, but more at the office. Like my editor actually, she had a space in her office that was supposed to be a flex space. It was a super nice flex space.

But the problem was there was, like, an executive in her office who would use it periodically. And it wasn’t like all the time, but it was enough that people were like, “Is that actually flexible space or am I going to…is the exec going to think that I’m trampling on their territory or invading their territory?”

And so I think if you’re in a position where you can articulate to people, like, “These spaces are for these things, and we really want you to use them,” but then also, if you’re willing to experiment yourself and kind of like try things out in your office, then go use spaces for different things and to be a leader, right? If there’s a room, a conference room, or a flex space that’s never being used, try using it and see what happens.

So that one is more about like just having more clear definitions about what can be done in the spaces and not assuming. So the constraint there is in our heads.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly. Or, we just have these assumptions, like, “Well, the conference room is for conferencing, and so it would not be appropriate for me as an individual solo person to get up in there.” It’s like, “Well, that may or may not be true based upon the needs of the organization and the space.”

Leidy Klotz
Exactly, yeah. And, I mean, there’s all this work trying to make offices more flexible and suitable for different tasks. And again, part of that is in the physical world, but part of it is in our heads, right? Have we tried using it for the task and seeing how it works?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, one thing that’s coming up a lot is in terms of like our own needs and desires and what works for us and customizing. I’m curious if you had any discoveries about, like, universal good things for a space in terms of is it light or nature? Or is there anything that just about all humans do better when these components are in the space or are not in the space?

Leidy Klotz
I have another example from my editor’s office. She’s going to have to listen to this podcast. But she said that they wanted to bring more nature in, so they put like AstroTurf on the steel columns to try to make it feel more natural.

But that’s not the kind of nature that’s helpful. So it’s less about, like, bringing nature inside, and more about trying to mimic the patterns that are found in nature. And one thing that’s in nature a lot is this kind of balance between order and complexity.

So there’s this classic interior design advice that’s, like, kind of layering the materials and textures and fabrics, but also having kind of, like, an underlying, “This is the idea.” And I think the kind of the way that that design advice has been backed into, and the way it works, and the reason it works is because we like being surrounded by things where there’s, by the natural world.

And in the natural world, there’s like, you know, a pine tree, the way it grows. It’ll grow in fractal patterns where little small pieces of the pine tree look very similar in terms of like the shape as the larger scale. And so there’s this regularity, but it gives rise to something that looks more complex.

And if you look at, like, a brick facade, for example, I mean, it’s the same thing. It’s this big, massive facade that you don’t pay much attention to and, generally, feels pretty natural and soothing, but there’s also an underlying pattern, whether it’s the bricks are staggered by one half on each level, or maybe one is stretched long ways and one is stretched short ways and then you keep repeating the pattern.

So there’s complexity but it’s resulting from a simple pattern. Is that too abstract or is that okay?

Pete Mockaitis
No, I hear you. And then I’m thinking about, I’m just looking at a bookshelf right now. And I had a buddy, once we were at a party. He was looking at the bookshelf, he said, “What’s up with women organizing their books by color?” which is a huge generalization. I’m sure men do it, too. But I thought it was kind of funny because both he and I have bookshelves and plenty of books and do not organized by color.

But yet, I got to say, when I was beholding this bookshelf, visually, it looked quite lovely. But if you can’t recall what a book spine looked like, you might have a harder time fishing it out of that bookshelf. But I think that speaks a bit to the pattern, is there is a certain order and beauty that is peaceful to having the books organized by color.

Leidy Klotz
Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s totally an example, right? You can see that this looks aesthetically pleasing and it’s because, “Okay, I see that there’s some logic here to the pattern.” And if you do it by a rainbow, then that’s something that’s actually found in nature. So that’s the kind of the deepest one.

I would say the other kind of general rules about what we like is we like where we’ve been. There’s this research on mirror exposure in the most extreme. The most interesting study, I think, is one of the original ones.

They put chicken eggs that hadn’t hatched yet and played music. And then when the eggs hatched, they had the ones that had heard the music and hatched chicks that hadn’t heard the music, and they put them in a pen and played music from one end. And the chicks that had heard the music went to the music.

So what’s happening, it’s like this demonstration of that, like, familiarity breeds liking. So if you’ve been surrounded by certain things throughout your life, you’re probably more likely to like them in the future. Like, I live in a house that has angled bedroom ceilings, a gravel driveway, and a kick wall for a soccer ball.

And that’s like some of the same features as the house I grew up in, right? And so the things that we’re kind of familiar are going to just take less cognitive effort and then we’re drawn to them as a result.

And then the last little piece is, this is, I think, the most freeing one, is that we’re also wired to like what we’ve chosen. So if you’ve picked the thing, like if you organized the books the way that you want to organize the books, Pete, don’t change it, right? Like, you are going to kind of justify it and like it because it’s you who did it.

And I think that’s as many kind of general rules as I think are worth thinking about when we’re thinking about our spaces.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, there can be a certain delight in that. And I think you maybe see this in maybe couples arguing about how to load the dishwasher. It’s, like, each way feels very right to each of them. And you can argue, I don’t know if dishwasher engineers would have a point of view on what’s optimal from a cleansing perspective.

But we can get really, really attached to how we’ve arranged things. And I guess, as you opened us up with everything, it could be life or death, potentially, in terms of the ability to be able to arrange things to our liking.

Leidy Klotz
Yeah, I mean, we’re laughing about, well, not laughing, but, the nursing home study is an extreme example. But in some of these studies of self-determination theory in the office and in large scale in, like, across different examples, they correlate agency, growth, and connection and, like, health outcomes. And there’s a correlation there, so it’s a big deal.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, is there anything we should talk about with regard to connection in our spaces?

Leidy Klotz
I think that we’ve talked a little bit about, like, home and away, right, and thinking about how the space is going to make you perform. Is it an away space? Is it a home space? I think, “How can you make it a good space for connecting?” is maybe something that we should just hammer home because, most of the time, what we want to do in the space is have meaningful interactions with the other people who are in it.

And so if you think about people coming to your office, you don’t want them maybe distracted by a mess in the space. And the mess could be, like, the mess that our parents talk about, but also it could be a mess where the space is just not easy to navigate, right? It’s hard for them to get around and, therefore, they’re worried about that, and, therefore, they’re not being able to focus on you.

So I think, you know, how do we make the space as kind of neutral as possible? And sometimes, I think, that’s, for me, the thing that works is, you know, I’ll go outside my house and then just open the door and say, “Okay, I’m coming into this as a visitor would and now I’ll start to notice some of the things,” and then I can remove them and make it so that my guest is able to connect with me and vice versa.

Pete Mockaitis
Very nice. Well, Leidy, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Leidy Klotz
Just one really powerful thing, I guess, is that the space is a really awesome way to advertise your values, and it’s advertising that never turns off. We think about how we present ourselves with our clothes. We think about how we, like, articulate what’s meaningful to us. And yet, our surroundings are also sending messages about those things.

And so I’m not telling you what your values should be, obviously, but I’m saying your surroundings are a way to share those values. If you’re the company that says you care about employee input, and yet there’s cubicles for certain people and, like, nice executive offices around the outside, well, your space is saying something different than your mission statement. And it’s the same on an individual level.

So I would just say that this is an opportunity to, like, put your values into the world, and it’s an opportunity that never, never stops broadcasting once you’ve got it right. So just some motivation for people.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Leidy Klotz
One of my favorite quotes are different versions of that it’s less about what happens to you, and more about how you react to it. I guess a Viktor Frankl version of that most recently about life, like, it all being in the space between the stimulus and the reaction. But I really like those.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Leidy Klotz
The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with people, they quote it back to you often?

Leidy Klotz
I think the biggest key nugget is that people find it empowering to take advantage of the spaces to which they have access. And I think people realize that they do, in fact, have more options than they thought.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Leidy Klotz
LeidyKlotz.com, and then the book In a Good Place is available wherever you buy books. All the good stuff is in the book, but if you want to learn more about me, I’m easy to find on the internet.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Leidy Klotz
Notice. So take in the spaces around you and just pay attention to how they’re affecting you, and get some joy out of them, too. There’s beauty in the world around us, and something as simple as just the way the light reflects off the wall in different times of the day can be a source of joy. And that’s something that our screens, fundamentally, can’t give us. So notice and enjoy.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Leidy, thank you.

Leidy Klotz
Thanks, Pete.

Jul 03
0

1072: Reclaiming Your Creativity–No Matter Your Role with Tania Katan

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Tania Katan reveals tricks for turning daily drudgery into opportunities for innovation.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why creativity can be an antidote to burnout
  2. How to find inspiration in the everyday
  3. Creative hacks to make meetings more human and engaging

About Tania

Tania Katan is a global transformational speaker, award-winning author, and co-creator of the viral social impact campaign #ItWasNeverADress; a movement that has inspired over 100 million people to see, hear, and celebrate creativity and diversity. Her visionary way of formulating ideas led to her award-winning book, Creative Trespassing: How to Put the Spark and Joy Back into Your Work and Life (Penguin Random House),  as well as the award-winning memoir, My One Night Stand With Cancer (Alyson Books).

Katan is highly sought after to teach people and companies how to generate unlimited creative breakthroughs in less overtly creative industries, work cultures, and lives. Some of the organizations and major conferences impacted by her talks and workshops include: CiscoLive!, Expedia, Amazon, Talks at Google, Etsy, TED Talks, American Express, and more. 

Resources Mentioned

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Tania Katan Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Tania, welcome!

Tania Katan
Pete, thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited. We’re pushing record right away because we noticed that there’s something unique about us, or noteworthy, I should say, about us. You and I, we talk differently and we are also super into being creative and doing creative things. Is there a thing at play here, Tania?

Tania Katan
Totally. The reality of it is we were all actually born creative period. And, unfortunately, based on systems and well-meaning or less well-meaning parents and teachers, all the creativity was sort of, like, slapped out of us on our wrist. We were taught to kind of follow the rules and not think differently and all this.

But there is actually a study that proves that zero- to five-year-old kids are creative geniuses, which, means we’re born to think divergently, come up with infinite solutions or ideas for any problem or prompt. And then at 10 years old, that drops off to 50%. And then at 15 years old, we just can barely get out of bed and be creative. And then by the time we’re full-grown adults, all the creativity is gone unless we choose to cultivate it.

But the good news is that we were born with it so we can get it back. But I do like your enthusiasm for you and I being extraordinarily creative. Clearly, we’ve been stretching our muscles for a long time.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, you know, but I guess, if I may, and maybe I’m grasping at straws or trying to find something that’s not there, but I think there’s really something to that, that notion of we start creative and it’s beat out of us in all kinds of little ways, and we’ll dig into it.

And so, I think, perhaps, you and I, both have just doggedly refused to allow the world to wring the weirdness from us and how we choose to express ourselves. And so, we’ve held on to a bit of a unique flavor in how we express ourselves, as well as the capacity to continue pumping out a lot of ideas.

Tania Katan
Totally. Well, the good news is, guess who caught up with us weirdos? Forbes. You know it’s over. But, in all seriousness, about a year ago, Forbes said that the most important skill that we all, and by we, I mean, the workforce needs to learn and have, is creative thinking for the next four years. So, us suckers who double down on our weirdness and awkwardness and silliness and play, we’re the ones shining right now.

And that, I mean, Pete, I would be curious about your background. Like, my background ended up being, I went to theater, I did improv, all that kind of stuff. But it was because it was my natural instinct and I couldn’t fit into any other box. Like, I tried so hard. I was like, “I want to be straight. I want to have straight hair. I want to do like everything.”

And just my nature was such that I didn’t have any other option, but it did take a long time, quite seriously, and quite honestly for the workforce to catch up with what me and my parents thought were cool attributes about being creative and coming up with cool and interesting ideas. It took a while for me to find my place and for me to convince companies that, maybe, hiring me because I don’t fit in will be valuable to your bottom line and top line. And that took a long time.

And what for you? Were you just like, “Hey, I’m cool and quirky and weird and Pete, and hug me. Hire me”?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s funny how, like, oh, wow, there’s a lot I could go into, and some of it I have with therapist and others. But I did, I was into some theater in high school. It was just sort of fun, and I liked doing it. And I guess I just like performing in the stage, in general. And then when I was in high school, I thought, “I want to be a motivational speaker. That’s the job I want for myself.”

Tania Katan
You did?

Pete Mockaitis
I did. So, I was reading the book Speak and Grow Rich when I was like a 16-year-old. Like, “How does one become a professional speaker?” So, I was digging that, having fun with it. And I did an improv intensive course once just for fun. It was so funny, I was told that I’d really mellowed out. Some mentioned I’d really mellowed out a lot, and they liked that.

And it’s funny, I did not like that. I wanted to be un-mellow. But I think it’s funny how it is beaten out of us. It could be explicit or subtle. Like, there was a string of times I got dumped. I had some girlfriends, things seemed like they were going awesome, and then I just got dumped, and it wasn’t quite clear why. And it could be any number of things.

But what I managed to piece together from the little things they did say, was because some of them even said, it’s like, “Hey, no, I think we’re great one-on-one but, like, in group settings, it’s like a little off.” It’s like, “Oh, I’m too weird for you that I embarrass you.” It’s like that’s what I’m gathering, right? It’s like I am entertaining and amusing like a comedian, like, “Ha, ha, this is fun. I like this guy.” But it’s like, “Oh, but actually, I’m associated with you publicly, and that’s kind of uncomfortable.”

Pete Mockaitis
So, yeah, or then, like very subtly, I recall…well, I just recently bought a house, and it’s funny, I remember I was with a buddy, and I was helping him move, because he was also buying a house, and he said, “Hey, well, I’m going to the closing. I mean, I don’t know, you could keep boxing my stuff or you could join me at the closing.” I was like, “Hmm, joining you at the closing sounds much more fun.”

And so, I was intrigued because I’d never seen this before. I’d only seen like the episode of “The Office” where Michael Scott closes on his condo. And so, I was into it, and I was like, I had like young, childlike enthusiasm and excitement for the experience. And it’s funny, they asked, “Oh, can I get you…?” like the realtor or the closing agent or a title person, someone asked, “Oh, can I get you some coffee or anything?” And I said, “Oh, yes, please. I want the full experience.”

And, like, my buddy who I was with, he’s like, “Come on, man, don’t be weird.” And I think that’s the messaging. It’s usually fairly subtle, not like a heartbreaking dumping, but it’s like, “Hey, so like kind of just sort of be more like normal and not like you. And that would be more comfortable for all of us, please.”

Tania Katan
I love it. Pete, so, basically, what you’re saying, in essence, a couple of things. Well, one is you have been a creative trespasser your entire life, and me, too.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose I have.

Tania Katan
So, I, basically, have been you in a parallel lesbian universe.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear it all the time, Tania.

Tania Katan
Yeah, I’m like you, only lesbian. But in all seriousness, I was the one who was like, “Buddy…” and I would say things that people wouldn’t say, and people would either laugh, crack up, or be totally embarrassed and everything in between. And at some point, they realized, “Wait a second, I want to be funny or I want to speak up, whether it’s like hanging out or in a meeting or all these spaces in between.”

And I think people started to see me as like, “Well, how do I get some of that? Like, how do I do it my own style?” And I’m like, “Ooh, what’s emerging here?” And then when I went into the workforce and, ironically, I didn’t study a book to be a motivational speaker. I was actually writing a book at 16, and a motivational speaker came to our high school, and I can’t believe that bastard.

We were in, like, a super impoverished school. We were like just a bunch of poor kids, and this guy comes in with an over, like, a cartoonishly large can that said, had printed on it, “Success comes in cans, not in can nots.”

Pete Mockaitis
I’m inspired.

Tania Katan
And then, wait, and then proceeded to talk about, like, “If you aim too high, you’re going to miss. If you aim too low, you’re going to miss. But if you aim right in the middle, that’s where success is.” And so, my message was, “Oh, so, if you aim for mediocrity…” Like, that’s what you teach poor kids, “Aim for mediocrity.”

But somehow through all of that, and through me in the same way that you couldn’t help yourself from being funny, and by funny, really, I’m guessing we pointed out obvious things or two things that seem sort of weird and stuck them together, and made new meaning. People were like, “Yeah, I want in on that, too.” By nature, again, we just get all the playfulness, all the creativity, all the fun sort of, like. beaten out of us in all these systems, and especially as adult people.

And again, this is where we are right now where everybody needs this stuff. So, at some point, I’m like, “What is this thing that I’m bringing to teams and companies? And are there other people bringing it to this level of joy that makes us want to contribute more or makes us want to bring literally our whole selves to work and we feel safe? What is it?”

And I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, it’s creative,” but we’re bringing into spaces where it’s not invited, but it’s desperately needed. And now that people have experienced it, they can’t live without it. Okay, creative and trespassing, that’s when you sneak shit in that doesn’t obviously belong. But then now it’s invited in through the front door many times. I mean, sometimes it’s not, but here’s where we are. We are basically kings and queens of the nerds. And I’m happy about this anointment.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, so trespassing, I really like that. So, that’s the title of the book, Creative Trespassing: How to Put the Spark and Joy Back into Your Work and Life. And so, trespassing, like, it wasn’t invited or asked for, and it kind of seems like it doesn’t belong, frankly, “But now that you’re here, okay, we’re kind of seeing that it’s nifty.”

And that’s interesting then in terms of, so our unique flavor of expression, you and I, it resembles that of a child before it’s been beaten out. And, I guess, is the connection then, because we’re more free to explore weird, wacky, unconventional things, some of them end up being very useful innovations along the way?

Tania Katan
Yeah, and also in that, though, is the practice of doing that. It’s not just like we wake up one day after having all the creativity taken away from us, or a lot of it, because of systems and people and all that jazz, and then we believe it. We believe all this sort of default crap of like, “Oh, I’m not good enough,” or, “I’m not smart enough,” or, “I’m not funny enough,” or, “I don’t belong here,” or whatever.

And then you and I, clearly, have maintained the practice of believing like, “Huh, if I double down on everything that I’ve got, which is creativity, ability to come up with weird ideas quickly, and also not to feel ashamed or threatened by others if the ideas are wrong, to take risks and generate more ideas than not in order to get to something.” That’s interesting.

And, in fact, I was just giving a talk at Santa Barbara Museum of Art, and one of the things in my book, and that I engage this audience in is, I said, “You know, why don’t you come up with, find a problem that nobody’s looking to solve, that nobody’s looking to solve in the world? It could be local, it could be small.”

And that in itself was a trigger for people to be like, “Wait, I can just look for something that I wasn’t told to look for? I can look for something that might be invisible and kind of bring it to life?” And I had people partner with people who didn’t know each other. So, it was this older woman and this young kid, they’ve faced each other and they did the, you know, what could they solve.

And then afterwards, I’m like, “Okay, so what did you do?” And they’re like, “Well, there’s a really great restaurant in Santa Barbara, but they’re really garlic-focused and a lot of people go there for dates. So, the problem is, is you don’t want to, like, make out with somebody if you got garlicky breath. So, we’ll plant a mini garden, like a little flower box of parsley right outside the restaurant, have some colorful scissors so people can cut parsley on their way out, eat them and they don’t have to worry about garlic breath.”

Now this seems sort of like simple, but it’s actually brilliant. I mean, it’s genius. It’s like a really great idea. They had three and a half minutes to come up with this solution. And they did. And there were other people who figured out how to clean oil from the beaches, how to grow wine grapes in the sea, like all of these things.

And so, I think the first part of that is to give ourselves permission, which obviously you and I have been doing for a long time, to sort of stretch our creative muscles, trust our instincts, and be prepared to take risks and be wrong a lot. Who cares, right? Like, in the pursuit of that one sort of solution, you have to have wild, weird, outlandish ideas, and see what comes out of them.

It’s not like be perfect right out the gate. That’s ridiculous. That’s not prototyping. That’s not innovation. That’s sort of the antithesis of that.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it’s interesting. Let’s talk about that emotional notion of being beat down. It’s funny, sometimes when I’m brainstorming or whatever, I have zero offense whatsoever. I provide an idea and it’s just like shot down summarily and robustly. Often, that will bother me not at all. It’s like, “Well, hey, I’ve got 20 more, so next. Let’s go.”

But other times, it hits hard, in terms of it feels personal, like a rejection of me and myself-ness. And I don’t know where the distinction is. Maybe it’s about self-expression as opposed to ideas that feel a bit removed. But, help us out, if the world is going to beat us down, and sometimes we won’t care, and sometimes we will, how do we take it and keep on trucking?

Tania Katan
Well, first of all, I’ll give you and everyone who’s listening the gift of a question, which is, “What if?” What if…? So, the minute we kind of engage this question, what if it allows for possibilities beyond this time and space? What if kind of softens the blow or lowers the stakes of, like, “I need to be responsible to come up with a solution to solve the problem of lack of women in technology.”

What if it’s, like, “What if we decided to look at something differently? Like, what if we decided to come up with the wrong answer? What if we decided to launch a campaign in outer space? Like, what if?” So, there’s something about this question that I always give to people, I’ve had it in my back pocket since I went to theater school, that lowers the pressure and the taking it personally, and making it about yourself.

It’s like a gentle punting of a question into the ether, and maybe a solution will come. Even your voice goes up an octave when you ask “What if?” as opposed to like, “Okay, here’s my solution.” And also, it decenters. It’s not about you. It’s not like, “I have an idea. I have a solution.” It’s like, “What if…?” It offers it up to everyone.

So, I think that taking it out of yourself, decentering you and our egos in our brains, and allow it to sting. It does sting. I remember coming up with the idea for, “It Was Never A Dress,” which I don’t know if you’ve seen, but I’m sure your listeners have, and they can envision in their mind’s eye, you know, the bathroom lady, the symbol? And so, she’s wearing, what is she wearing, Pete?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I know better. She’s wearing a cape.

Tania Katan
Oh, come on. Gosh, yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I’ll play along. Oh, she’s wearing a dress, Tania. She’s wearing a dress.

Tania Katan
Thank you for playing. We have some lovely party gifts for you, Pete. Right. So, I came up with this idea in a meeting and, literally, to your point, there were people who were like, “That is the dumbest idea ever in our team meeting.” And some were like, “That’s the best idea,” and everything in between.

And, to me, the moment that I took that personally was when I knew it was such a good idea, I was willing to fight and push for it to be in the world. That’s when I took it personally. But before that it was like, “Well, here’s some ideas. Let’s see what happens.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. By saying “What if,” it is, it’s not about you. It’s not about your ideas, your contribution, your smarts, your worth, your value to the team, yada, yada. It’s like, “Hey, we’re just going to play a game here and we’re going to step into this world, and we’ll kind of see what happens when we play around here.

Tania Katan
Totally. You remind me of a phrase that I loved so much and nobody ever uses it, but I bet you do, Pete. Spitballing. And when I think about spitballing, I think about saliva leaving your mouth in an ungraceful way, and just like shit kind of getting messy and all over the place. And so, thinking about spitballing as a way to just kind of like, “Eh, you know, if a little spit gets somewhere, it doesn’t mean it’s not about perfection. It’s actually the minute I open my mouth. It’s about messy imperfection.” Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Well, so sometimes, when we’re talking about creativity on How to be Awesome at Your Job, a listener will think, “Well, you know, I’m not really in one of those creative-type jobs.” Do you have a response to that? And how can we think about creativity impacting all humans and workers?

Tania Katan
Yeah, so, really, there have been studies to prove that we are all creative. There’s one, and for those people who say that, they probably have a lot of constraints in their job. Maybe, like, “I don’t have time. I don’t have a budget. I don’t have a team.” I’ve been that person many times. And there was a seminal study by Patricia Stokes with rodents, rats. And she took two groups of rats; they each had a bar they had to push.

One could use both paws. One group could only use one paw. And the group with two paws just pushed the lever, pushed it, pushed it, pushed it, and fine. The group with one paw, they pushed the lever, they pushed the lever, and they are, like, hold up. Then they pushed it behind their back, then between their legs. They came up with hundreds of ways to push this freaking lever.

And the point was that, when we have constraints, we actually are more generative. We come up with more creative ideas. So, my challenge to those people who are like, A, “I’m not creative,” you were born that way. It’s your birthright so let’s tap back into it. And, B, constraints actually foster creativity. And creativity is, literally, just coming up with infinite ideas and solutions for any problem, challenge, obstacle. Period.

So, there’s two C’s of creativity. There’s the big C, which is like, “I’m a painter,” or, “I’m a playwright,” or, “I’m a choreographer, and that requires training and maybe some innate ability.” But the little C is we can come up with infinite solutions and ideas, and that’s within us. So, constraints, so I dare you to take these constraints.

There’s actually an exercise I give in Creative Trespassing, which is come up with like the positive opposite of this sort of problem that’s ailing you. So, I don’t know, Pete, who have you had on your show that’s like, “Ah, creative? I work at a call center”? Or, I don’t know, what do you, or what kind of person or industry are you talking about?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think you nailed it in terms of the constraints, in terms of if a person feels constricted as though they don’t feel they have the authority or resources or autonomy to go invent a new approach to whatever, it’s sort of like, “Well, hey, the processes have been established, and my role is to execute them.” Like, that’s kind of the vibe or context where they’re coming from.

Tania Katan
Well, I’ll tell you, I’ll give you an example from the art world, which is where everybody gets their goodies. There is an artist named Meg Duguid, and years ago she just wanted to open a gallery, right? She had met all these cool artists from around the world, and she’s like, “I live in Chicago. I want to bring all these artists in.” And then she went to look for a gallery.

And guess what? It’s very expensive, she’s not making much money, and this is her dream, and she doesn’t have investors. She’s not friends with VCs or whatever. And so, she had a choice. She’s like, “I could just let my dream go away, or I could find a creative way to deal with these constraints of no money, no space, no patrons, nothing.”

And so, she started Clutch Gallery. And it’s, literally, she has a…do you know what a clutch purse is? It’s like 10 inches by 10 inches, and hers is sort of hard shell. And she has, if you open it up, there’s rotating exhibitions in there. There’s, like, really tiny, she had a painter who had to do like, half-inch scale paintings. She had a performance artist who had to figure out a way.

So, the point is that, instead of giving up on her dream of owning a gallery, she decided to make it 10-inch by 10 inches. And if you call her, she’ll come with the gallery and meet you anywhere, like a coffee house or on the streets or whatever, and she’s showing art of people that she admires around the world.

And then they have the constraint and challenge of “How do they make their work fit within 10 inches and 10 inches?” And these are people who show in massive museums or galleries that are more typical. And I just thought that was the best way. I had some engineers come up to me after I gave a talk at Uber, and they’re like, “We want to start an innovation lab. But we don’t have money or buy-in or anything.” And I’m like, “Why don’t you get a clutch, okay?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s where it all starts.

Tania Katan
That’s where it all starts, yeah. And we’re laughing, and whenever I share this with people at Fortune 500 companies, they laugh, and then they’re also like, “Yeah, actually, I guess I do have some less obvious resources that would be really interesting and actually fun to activate and play with.” And that’s real innovation, not bullshit like, “Oh, I’ve got a ton of money and a whole team.” I’m sure you know, anybody who’s done anything that we admire was not necessarily done with a whole team and a lot of money.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s really interesting about, it is creative in so far as it is novel, like certainly, like that hasn’t been done before. But then interesting implications sort of unfold from that, like, there is one clutch and she has it.

And so, like, if folks who are into a unique, cool, arty experience, if you have a money problem, may very well be, it’s like, “Well, shoot, how am going to get all my art friends together? And if I want this gallery to come to our event, well, now there’s a supply constraint so there might be a substantial fee associated with it.” It’s like, “You want the clutch? Yeah, well, your fancy friends, that’s going to be $800 for me to truck it on the L over to you there.”

Tania Katan
I like how you went to scale and capitalism in, like, one beat. Man!

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. Yeah, thank you.

Tania Katan
I like that. I like it a lot. Nice transition. So, yeah, but that’s just like saying, “Oh, somebody came up with a project management SaaS we can’t come up with anymore,” right? But the cool thing is when somebody comes up is first to market, whether that’s a clutch with a miniature painting show in it, or a software as a service, and it becomes a North Star for everybody else to tap into.

Like, “Okay, how am I going to use my unique voice, brand, style, tone to connect with my intended audience in a positive way. What’s my clutch? What’s my clutch? Ooh, hashtag, I see a new campaign. #WhatsMyClutch.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, it’s really interesting. You mentioned, like a software as a service project management piece, and it’s like, “Oh, well, that’s already been done. There are multiples.” And yet I’m just thinking, I see so many variants, and they’re kind of fun. I’m thinking randomly about the CARROT Weather app.

Tania Katan
What? I don’t know that.

Pete Mockaitis
It’ll give you attitude. You could choose from several personalities and how you want it to tell you about the weather, from professional to friendly, to snarky, to homicidal and overkill. So, it brings that fun to a very mundane activity, like, “Oh, what’s the weather? There’s plenty of weather apps. Well, if you want your weather app to have some attitude, you’ve got CARROT Weather,” and it has a boatload of users. It’s really taken off.

Tania Katan
Well, because what it’s done and that, to me, is the ultimate expression of creativity. Just taking something that’s seemingly mundane, or every day, or overlooked, and actually turning it on its head or upside down or inside out so that it can really engage people in a fun, uplifting, and positive way. Really, I mean, that’s what we need in all industries in all areas.

You’re reminding me of this, my side hustle in which I don’t get paid, but I’m turning to you to understand how to commodify and scale it, sir. But which is, whenever I’m on hold with like the bank or any kind of institution, which is all the time, they always have their hold music. And so, I decided to start doing dance and performance with the whole music and just videotaping myself, and sharing it with anybody who’s had to be on hold, and it’s so much fun.

And so, it turns something that’s not only just mundane, but actually frustrating. And sometimes when I’m haven’t had a nap, just downright irritating, I become the nasty carrot, more like a gourd, I feel. And, yeah, and so it’s taken something that I have to do, that we all have to do, which is engage with customer service in a way that’s sometimes, and oftentimes, not enlivening.

And it all starts with the canned music, and turn it into a performance or dance even if it’s just for myself, especially if it’s for my friends, and we can all enjoy it a little bit more. So, I love the CARROT.

Pete Mockaitis
Now that is fun. And I want to talk about some additional examples of that because it’s your subtitle, “How to Put the Spark and Joy Back into Your Work and Life.” Let’s talk about some mundane dimensions of work life.

Let’s say answering emails and participating in, we’ll say, Zoom meetings, that you know they’re not the most interesting and maybe not the most essential, but, nonetheless, you’re expected to be there. And there’s probably a few minutes that are actually really necessary for you out of the 60. So, how might we bring a little bit more of that zest to these experiences?

Tania Katan
Well, first of all, I consider this one-inch by one-inch frame in our camera as a stage. It’s not this sort of, like, passive participant. We can engage with this as if we’re as a speaker, as a motivational speaker. I give a lot of talks on Zoom. And so, if you are conducting the meeting, then I would recommend that you start with seeing the space as an active, alive, performative one, not performative work, but more performance-based.

So, for example, Pete, if we were just entering a Zoom meeting, and I was “running it,” I would say, “Okay, Pete, our meeting today is creativity. We’re talking about creativity. So, you know what? Let’s start with something creative. We’re going to leave the frame and we’re going to count to three on our own. One, two, three. And when we get to three, enter the frame in a new way. You ready? Let’s do it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Tania Katan
“Okay. We’re going to leave the frame. Bye.” Okay, so, look, here’s the deal. A lot of people forget thought and form, right? The thought is, “Why have we all convened? What’s the theme? Why are we here?” And if it’s about creativity or innovation, a lot of these meetings we’re having are for a reason and we forget about it. We get just perfunctory and, like, we check off the bullet points on the agenda.

0And I’m here to tell you that connect what you’re talking about to the actual form in which it takes. So, don’t start a meeting about innovation by saying, “Okay, who has the notes from the last meeting? Hey, Pete, can you hear me? Can you hear me?”

I mean, why wouldn’t you engage people with the substance that you’re trying to sell, to commodify, to champion as, like, “This is our vision and mission.” And yet, it’s the first thing to go away when we sit down at a meeting or when sometimes we engage in practices that we think are like less interesting.

Having that connection to what we do and why we do it is so important. And I don’t think it should be left out of anything. It needs to be brought into everything. And I promise you, it’ll change culture and it’ll change your mindset and change how fun Zoom meetings are.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, no, that’s fun. I’m imagining, when you talk about the little camera square as a performance space, like a stage, well, I‘m imagining from “Arrested Development,” Tobias Fünke, you know, placed aside his artist’s smock to adorn his director’s hat or whatever, you know, get props, get silly with it. And that’s kind of fun.

I want to hear your take on email. You reminded me of some things. I’ve only done this a few times. I guess I was that desperate, like, “I need to do these emails and I really, really don’t want to.” I put on a headset, which kind of helped because I was doing some dictation to speak a little bit. But more so, I was pretending to be the character Chloe from “24,” talking to Jack Bauer about some very urgent situations as I was quickly typing away on the screen, because that’s what Chloe always did.

And it was life or death, terrorism, you know, big high stakes, just to put a little bit of juice into the email processing. And that kind of worked. I’ve also tried timings, like, “Oh, it’s a race. Let’s try and get 100 by these many minutes or whatever.” So, I’d love your hot take on how do we bring some more spark and joy back to email processing.

Tania Katan
So, I love that you created a whole meal out of your persona to sit down to respond to emails but you’re not responding in their vernacular or like with their language. It’s Pete responding, but you’re giving yourself that urgency and excitement of being the character.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, but if I don’t answer these emails, the terrorists are going to win.

Tania Katan
So, you’re holding yourself hostage.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, put some duct tape on your mouth, “Hmm, hmm.”

Tania Katan
I’ll approach it from another way, which my clients, who I worked for like big tech companies, like Expedia and stuff like that, and they have to construct the most boring emails to people who have not read anything that they were supposed to read, in a way in which suggests, like, “I’m sure you read the 20-page reports. And here’s blah blah blah.”

And so, what they do that is really exciting, is they just throw in an Easter Egg, because not everybody has tapped into that. So, it’ll be all about like the new version of, you know, whatever, the new release of the technology, and they’ll throw in like a few Easter Eggs from Star Trek or whatever film or TV show, to see if they’ve read the thing they should have read.

And if they do then, they get bonus points. And the person who’s on the other end gets excited, they’re like, “Okay, I’m going to read that because I know there’s going to be some Easter Eggs in there.” I’ve never tried that, but I’m going try adapting. I feel like my persona is just so I’m always performing in relation to that. I love that. I’m going to start using that. I’ll hashtag, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure. I’m on it. Thank you.

Tania Katan
I’ll TM you. I love that. That’s such a great way, is to like put on the hat of whatever character you think is sort of weird and wily and wonderful, and get all the high-pressure stakes that they have in their situation, and respond to an email about the next team meeting. I think that’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. Fun. Well, is there anything you do when drudgery enters your work life? What are your personal practices for spicing it up?

Tania Katan
Well, first of all, this is really practical spice and it’s a tomato. I feel like you had a carrot. I should bring some vegetable-fruit to the table. And the Pomodoro method, I know this sounds sort of boring, but this is the best thing that I’ve given to all my clients. It’s a time management. It’s a constraint. So, basically, it’s started with like a tomato timer, but set a timer for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and get done what you need to get done. And when the timer goes off, you take a break.

You dance, you work out, you breathe, you jump up and down, whatever the hell you want. You drink a coffee, and then you set it again. So, creativity isn’t always like, “I’m racing against time in, like, a larger sense.” Sometimes it’s all about, like, “I give myself this constraint so that I can approach what I’m doing in a way that’s, like, doesn’t beat me down, feels kind of fine. And I can move on to the next thing that’s actually more fun for me.”

So, I know that’s not sexy, but tomatoes can be sexy sometime, time management can be sexy, because it allows us to do the things that we really love to do. Thus, the gift of AI, I’ve got to say. I mean, that’s where, if you really want to be developing your creative muscles, let something else do the boring tasks. Boom!

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, when it comes to AI, I would love to hear your pro tips, do’s and don’ts. I mean, I think we’ve seen AI really go both ways in terms of a worker has used it to be more effective and efficient, and a worker has used it to embarrass themselves royally because these citations or legal cases don’t exist, or they let it sort of do all. They actually let it do the fun parts for them. So, help us out, what are your do’s and don’ts for AI in helping us have more fun and creative goodness in our work?

Tania Katan
Okay. Here’s the deal. I did a thought experiment. So, I was an early adopter with ChatGPT, and you can’t forget the learning part of machine. It’s machine learning. So, it’s what you’re feeding it and what we’re all feeding it, whether we’re feeding it burritos or like Twyla Tharp, you know. It’s getting a lot of stuff in its pie hole, and that’s part of the process.

But for me, early on, with ChatGPT, I realized, what AI won’t do is it won’t write 50 shitty pages in order to get to that one line that you’re like, “Oh, my God, I thought my book was about this, but it’s really not about that.” It’s not process-oriented, it’s a process-er. And we are process-oriented and we are driven to have those moments where we doubt we could write the book, we doubt we could write the code. We doubt it.

And in the doubting, we dig in deeper and then we find a totally different way to do it, a way that isn’t a pattern that is less obvious. And that’s the beauty of us being human beings.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, agreed. So, then is there anything you think it’s handy for?

Tania Katan
So, I find it really effective and efficient for the stuff that slows me down as a creative, right? Making the bullet point list, organizing thoughts and ideas into a clear form that I can take to a company that I just met with. And I’m like, “Here.” I met with them, I’m like, “I can help you tell your story in all these different ways, engage your audiences.”

And then I get home and I’m exhausted. I don’t want to sit down and make a proposal that’s cogent. So, I’ve really worked with ChatGPT and helped it nail down the tone, and do the hard stuff. That’s what it’s there for, is to do the stuff that is boring to me. That’s why I love it so much. And also, and in fairness to this processor that is kind of gleaning and gathering all kinds of information, because I’ve fed it so much over the years, it can be kind of a thought partner.

I guess I think about it as like a very high achieving intern. It’s not, like, it’s shabby ideas, to your point. It can come up with creative ideas, but that’s based on years of me sort of showing how I think, how I feel, how the people I work with think and feel. And so, it can be really good, like an intern who’s like, “Hey, Tania, I have a really good idea.” And I’m like, “Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s good. It’s super good.”

The tone isn’t there yet, but that’s my job. That’s what I delight in is the creative crafting of that, of the messages. So, I think it’s a good thought partner, first drafter, and definitely great with the tedious tasks that us humans shouldn’t be doing.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, and it’s intriguing. Tedious tasks, in some ways, to get philosophical, it’s a bit in the eye of the beholder insofar as an attorney might delight in crafting a contract that seems, oh, so thorough and risk-mitigating and comprehensive. Or, maybe they hate it, too, Tania. I’m not sure.

Tania Katan
Yeah, but, no, conversely, to your point, Pete, so if that’s your creative output is the sort of the tasks and the focusing in on the details, then you’re training it to come up with the creative ideas that you’re feeding into it.

And maybe those ideas aren’t perfect, but maybe within the realm of the people that you’re engaging with, that those are like really radical ideas that you can explore together as humans and see if they work. Test them out.

So, use them for the opposite, the person who’s expressing or sort of stretching their creative muscles all the time, desires to use it for.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, tell me, any final thoughts, tips, do’s and don’ts about creativity and joy?

Tania Katan
There are no don’ts. It’s do’s. Creativity is the new job security. Pass it on. Really, I mean, in all seriousness, back to the full circle to the Forbes quote, I mean, they’ve literally doubled down. In four issues, they’ve written about how important creative thinking is for knowledge workers, because AI will be able to do everything we can do and faster.

And if we don’t cultivate our creative thinking, if we don’t get back to our birthright of being creative individuals who can solve any problem, accept any challenge, and even turn ourselves into a character that has high-pressure stakes in order to answer emails, we’re going to be out of a job. And I don’t want us to be like that. We’re the ones who created AI. So, let’s wield the power of technology rather than it dragging us around.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now can you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Tania Katan
Maya Angelou all the way, “People will forget what you did, people will forget what you said, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Tania Katan
The Patricia Stokes study on rodents and creativity and constraints.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Tania Katan
Yeah, Pema Chödrön, When Things Fall Apart. That’s my favorite, When Things Fall Apart, Pema Chödrön, all the way. It’s a good read anytime, especially now.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool?

Tania Katan
An espresso cup.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Tania Katan
Laughing.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And is there a key nugget you share that people quote back to you often?

Tania Katan
God, no. What people say is, “Oh, Tania, I love what you said. Can you say it again?” And I say, “No. Whatever comes out of my pie hole is there for you to use or throw away immediately. There’s no in between.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Tania Katan
TaniaKatan.com, T-A-N-I-A Katan.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Tania Katan
Lower the stakes. Take some risks. Do it in places and with people you feel safe first, and then expand the circle, and then expand the circle even more until it’s so big that every place is a place for you to take risks and find some joy, and double down on being a creative human.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Tania, thank you.

Tania Katan
Thanks, Pete.

Feb 20
0

841: How to Get Creative on Demand with Baronfig’s Joey Cofone

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Joey Cofone says: "Creativity is not about creating. It is about combining."

Joey Cofone shares what it really means to be creative and why everyone can be creative in any role.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why creativity isn’t just for the “creatives”.
  2. Why we shouldn’t shy away from our fears.
  3. How to come up with ideas on the spot.

About Joey

Joey Cofone is the Founder & CEO of Baronfig, an award-winning designer and entrepreneur, and author of The Laws of Creativity.

Joey has designed and art directed over 100 products from zero to launch. His work has been featured in Fast Company, Bloomberg, New York Magazine, Newsweek, Bon Appétit, Quartz, Mashable, Print, and more. Joey was named a New Visual Artist and, separately, Wunderkind designer, by Print magazine. He is also a 1st place winner of the American Institute of Graphic Arts design competition, Command X.

Joey strives to make work that appeals to curious minds—work that’s beautiful, smart, and communicative. He believes that design is the least of a designer’s worries, that story is at the heart of all tasks, and jumping off cliffs is the only way to grow.

He lives in New York City with his wife, Ariana, and his dog (and writing buddy), Luigi.

Resources Mentioned

Joey Cofone Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Joey, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Joey Cofone
Hello. Hello. I am psyched.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m psyched too. I want to know so much about your insights, creativity, Baron Fig. I have one of your notebooks on my desk.

Joey Cofone
Surprise.

Pete Mockaitis
It was there before I knew I was talking to you.

Joey Cofone
Watching it the whole time.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I wanted to ask you about your hobby of playing video games but then I learned that you almost died in Tennessee, so I think we need to hear both of these tales. What’s the story here?

Joey Cofone
I did almost die in Tennessee. We discovered this before recording when I said, “Where are you?” and you said, “Tennessee,” and I said, “I almost died there.” And that is because I went hiking the Appalachian Trail when I was 20 maybe, 21. I was in phenomenal shape. I’m not in bad shape now but I was in killer shape then.

And so, it was just me and a buddy, went on the mountain, not underprepared. I will say we did our homework. However, we missed a spring, did not get water, the sun started going down, we became disoriented mentally and then, of course, disoriented because we couldn’t see anything, started not making sense, and we literally had to hang on to each other.

Two very large dudes, walking hand in hand like we were walking down the aisle, all the way through the mountains until we found water. And then we had to sit there and watch it boil before we could drink it. It took, like, 30 minutes to boil this on this little tiny thing. Anyway, I did almost die because I was about to lie down and give up.

And my friend, who is now the COO of Baron Fig, Jay, was there to give me his last little bit of water, and say, “We got to keep going, man.” So, I almost died in Tennessee, but here I am today with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow, what a guy.

Joey Cofone
He did. It was his last sip of water and he gave it to me.

Pete Mockaitis
That is beautiful.

Joey Cofone
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m also thinking about Jeff Boyles, how you could’ve cut that 30 minutes way down.

Joey Cofone
Oh, man. You talk about waiting for a pot to boil, man, I thought it was a lifetime, and then it was the best-tasting water I had ever had in my life even though it was scalding hot.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow, that’s good stuff. Good stuff.

Joey Cofone
Yeah, it was good.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m glad you’re alive and made it out of Tennessee.

Joey Cofone
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
And I also wanted to hear about you and video games. Some say they’re a waste of time. You, well, I want to know what you think, but that’s what you like to do, and you are a thought leader in the realm of creativity. So, I’d like to guess that there’s some sort of a connection between video games and creativity, but you tell me.

Joey Cofone
Sure. I would consider myself a thought leader in video games, as a consumer. I’ve been talking about video games and pro video games since I started Baron Fig, and have been interviewed all over the place, and that’s about just over a decade now. So, gaming has become significantly more mainstream in that time but, in my lifetime certainly, gaming has been viewed as a nerdy guy who sits in his parents’ basement type of activity for quite a long time. And only in the last, let’s say, five-ish, seven years has it become really, really mainstream, so I’m glad about that.

I personally prefer XBOX but I’ve owned them, played them all, and I think what’s beautiful about games is that it is, to me, and I’m going to say this, I think it is – ooh, it’s going to hurt too because this is going to come hard – but I believe it is one of the pinnacles of creative expression. And I say that because in a video game you have music, you have visual art, you have programming, you have storytelling, you have a host of other practices, cinematography, all coming together to not only tell you a story like a movie would or a book would, but put you in the center of it.

So, yeah, I love gaming. And if you’re going to sit in front of the TV, you might as well interact with it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I don’t find that statement to be controversial to me at all. Once, I took a look at what’s really going on in terms of was it the Unreal engine or some of the cutting-edge stuff, it is spectacular what is now possible visually. And then I saw, in the pandemic, I was watching, this game is called “Detroit: Become Human” which is fascinating. Fascinating stories.

And I was just watching the game play because I didn’t have my console yet and I was sick with COVID and nothing else to do. And then I saw some of the making of it, and it was nuts. This composer was just talking about how he invented new instruments in order to get the sounds he was going for, for each of the key characters, to really capture the emotional essence. And it’s, like, wow, that is hardcore.

And those millions of dollars spread across a huge staff really is exceptional in terms of many layers of creativity. So, yeah, that makes sense to me.

All right, we’re talking about creativity. You’ve learned a whole lot about it in your years in your career. Can you share with us any particularly surprising, counterintuitive, extra-fascinating discoveries you’ve made about creativity during this time?

Joey Cofone
Oh, my goodness. It is a boatload or, I should say, a book-load, there are so many. I can start with one of the most profound things that I discovered. Before that, let me tell you why I think creativity is so radically important and where it originated for me.

In the introduction to my book, I explained where creativity entered my life. So, it was first grade, seven years old. I walked into the classroom thinking it’s just any other day. Teacher hands out a worksheet. It has a cartoon worm on it. All you got to do is color it, cut it out, put it on the board. No problem, like every other Monday. But this Monday was different because I decided I wanted to have the best worm in the class. So, I get down, I put my arm around my paper, I take out my big-ass box of crayons, and I go to town. And I am thinking, “This is the greatest creation of all time.”

I cut out my worm, I walk up to the board, and I stopped dead in my tracks because, as I look there, on the board, all the other students who have put theirs up, even though it’s different, they color little dots here, maybe one is a little more red, a little more blue, they all feel the same. And so, now I’m like, “I can’t put my…” Little Joey is like, “There’s no way I’m putting my worm on this board. I cannot be one of many.”

And I don’t know where that came from that day but I went back to my desk, and I sat down, and I was about to cry. And I had my head in my hands, I was hiding because I didn’t want anyone to see how upset I was. When I looked down, and what do I see, but the shards of paper that I had cut out the worm. So, I’m taking a look this, crying, and a lightbulb ticks, and I realized I can use them.

So, I draw a microphone, a boombox, and a necklace, cut them out, put them on the worm, put that on the board. Now, the whole class walks up, the teacher gets up behind me, the assistant teacher comes up, and everybody is looking at my worm, and they go, “This is the most amazing thing I have ever seen,” and they’re all shocked.

It was in that moment that I became addicted to creativity. Literally, that feeling, I just wanted it all the time throughout my life. And so, now as I got older and I started Baron Fig and we made all this cool stuff, and then it became time to write a book, and I thought to myself, “You know what, that’s my personal experience. But how can I inject something really profound and extremely objective into the book?”

And so, I discovered what became the cornerstone of my desire to pursue this, which is NASA did a study that found that 98% of five-year-olds are creative geniuses. Okay, 98%. Take a guess what percent it goes down to by the time we hit adulthood.

Pete Mockaitis
Two percent.

Joey Cofone
Two percent. Nailed it.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent.

Joey Cofone
Somebody did his homework. And so, I realized that, “Wow, this is not an accident.” We are systemically doing a very good job at reducing creativity where it goes from 98% to 2%. And so, now I have my experiences, I have a reason to write this book, put them together, and here we are. And so, that was the very first thing that I encountered about creativity that I thought was incredibly interesting and profound.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, so creativity, it seems like a cool good thing. Like, sure, yeah, better be creative than not creative. I’d love to get your hot take in terms of, for your average professional who’s interested in being more awesome at their job, let’s say they would assert, “You know, I’m not really in a creative role. I don’t sort of invent new stuff. I don’t have to come up with catchy ad campaigns. I just manage projects and interact with folks and go to meetings, and make my PowerPoints and do my analyses, and keep things humming along, and, hopefully, get some improvements in our operations here and there.” What’s the case for why creativity matters to such a person?

Joey Cofone
Well, for two reasons. Number one, everything you mentioned actually requires creativity.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Joey Cofone
The idea that creatives are people who make visual pictures or music or something is a common belief but is totally absurd. Creativity is simply the practice of ideas. And when you take and use your ideas, it’s self-expression. So, anytime you’re working on a spreadsheet, or you have to give a presentation, or you have to do a little project management, you are exercising your creativity. This is not a robot. This is not an automaton. You actually have to think about it and come up with a result, and that’s creativity. It doesn’t have to be some grand expression of it.

Every day, we have over 6,000 thoughts, for example, and the idea is that if you are…How do I say this in a way that doesn’t sound silly? If you are an intrepid person, which I hope you are, working on those 6,000 thoughts to make them even better is not only a good idea, it’s kind of a no-brainer to me because, to answer your second reason, is because, as an adult, it is proven that you are, number one, more happy if you involve creative exercises in your work, and, number two, you make more money. Like, statistically, you make 13% more than people who do not integrate creativity. And that’s just for adults.

Organizations, because I want to tie this all together, organizations who integrate creativity are more productive and they have higher revenue growth. So, as an individual and as a group, it is a no-brainer.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s say we say, “Ooh, I’d like to be in the integrate creativity camp, and see that 13% pay bump and more cool benefits,” can you paint a picture for what that looks like during the course of my work day of, “I’m a person who is integrating creativity” versus “I’m a person who is not integrating creativity”?

Joey Cofone
Yeah, it depends on what it is you do, and what it is you feel challenged by in your experience. For example, I’m a designer so that’s a little bit more obvious, but I don’t do design things all day. The last three weeks, for example, I set up a really complex notion series of documents that basically tracks out the company’s operating and how everybody is related to the projects that are going on. No one would look at that and go, “That’s some traditional creative stuff, bro.”

But it is, of course, creative because you have to problem-solve. So, day to day, it depends what you’re doing. But if you are taking in inputs and then assessing an optimal way to execute something, that’s creativity. It doesn’t have to be any more complex than that.

Pete Mockaitis
So, that’s what integrating creativity looks like, the 13% bump up camp. And then how does one live their work day without integrating creativity?

Joey Cofone
That’s a good point. It’s when you just take what’s given to you and you don’t do anything with it. You just are literally, as someone would call it, a paper-pusher, or you are not trying to make this better, you are not trying to improve in any way upon the processes or the deliverables or the requests that are handed to you. You simply process as if you were a fax machine or a typewriter or something. You get an input and you put an output. The only thing you’re there for is to execute it rather than assess and optimize and then execute.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, I guess I’m thinking about some roles…it’s funny, these are the very jobs I don’t like in terms of I have a spreadsheet of somebody’s hours, and I need to turn that into an invoice to say to somebody, “Pay me. Okay, so there’s, I guess I have to copy, paste, double-check, email.” Okay. Although, I could certainly integrate some creativity there in terms of, “Surely there’s a way I can get some automation going with this.”

Joey Cofone
I was just going to say that.

Pete Mockaitis
“Maybe I can do a research if there’s a software program that can do this, or a little bit of Visual Basic replications, VBA code to accelerate this. Do I want to use a sort or do I want to use a filter in terms of amending these spreadsheets?”

Joey Cofone
Precisely. And now you’re getting it because when you say it that way, it is a no-brainer, of course, that folks who do the latter, and say, “How can I automate this, or optimize it, or change it in a way where it actually takes work later even if it’s a little bit more work now?” they get paid more. It’s obvious. But, believe it or not, a lot of people don’t do it. The majority, unfortunately.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, I can’t believe it. Ooh, geez, when you say majority, it sounds like you’ve got some hard data. Bring it, Joey, what’s the state of the world in terms of folks integrating creativity?

Joey Cofone
I mean, 98% of folks don’t. That’s where we’re at.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, they’re not geniuses according to the NASA situation.

Joey Cofone
Correct.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, you mentioned the part about us systematically crushing the creativity and folks just they age. Do you have any idea for what are some of the drivers, the forces, the principles behind that?

Joey Cofone
Yeah, I do. It’s unfortunately the way we educate our youth is the systematic destruction of creativity. So, it is no wonder that, at five years old you peak, and then you go down. And five years old is when you start school. There are three reasons, primarily, that creativity decreases, things that we teach our kids.

First is that authority, like teachers, principals, deans, and so on, that they’re unquestionable. Well, that’s just not true because those people weren’t always in charge. There are other folks in charge, and those people had to supplant those folks, and so on and so forth. And so, it teaches us that you have to do number two, which is man-made rules have to be followed to a fault. And that means that whatever someone says goes, and you are taught not to question it.

And then the third and the most damaging of all is that the end is visible from the start, Pete. And this is terrible that we teach our kids this, but we teach the end is visible from the start. Now I’ll bring that down to earth. When you are given a book in third grade, and you have to read, I don’t know, Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury. And then you know, in two weeks, on Friday, you have to hand in a five-page paper about the plot and my thoughts, including a synopsis.

Cool. Okay. Well, I know everything I have to do before I do anything. Same thing in math, “Solve these ten proofs, hand them in.” Same thing in science, “Read this chapter and build a volcano.” Whatever it is, we are always taught to know the end before we start. Then we go to work, and then in work, our bosses tell us what to do and lay it out so that we know what we have to do before we start.

The problem is we are never taught to deal with the unknown. We are never taught to start without knowing where it could end up. And because of that, people have, unfortunately, more anxiety than ever before, and can’t deal with the curve balls of life. And that’s just a metaphor for creativity, was to make something you have to not know exactly where you’ll end up.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, this anxiety, can you unpack that mechanism or link there? Because we see the end before we start, we are more anxious…

Joey Cofone
Because we don’t, yeah. So, essentially, the modern society right now – what did we have – we had the agricultural age that lasted a long time. Then we had, fast-forward to the industrial age, the information age. Those happened fairly quickly. However, our human instincts, our programming, lags behind by tens of thousands of years. We don’t just evolve, unfortunately, as fast as society changes.

So, what happened back in the day is that when you had fear, ten thousand years ago, 20,000 years ago, that was because it was your body and your instincts making you move away from something that could kill you, the unknown, “Don’t go into that cave because you could die. Don’t go into this unknown land because we don’t know who’s there and defending it.” Fear was a tool. We still have fear but we don’t have life-threatening experiences anymore.

So, this fear, that is a natural part of our programming, is making us move away from things it thinks we can die. In reality, we cannot die in that regard. What happens nowadays is, instead of death, it’s just your ego is bruised, or you’re embarrassed, or you screw up. And so, because of that, this fear that is still a part of our lives, in this totally evolving social structure and the way we go about doing things nowadays, we still feel fear.

And that leads to a ton of anxiety because we have fears, “But I don’t know what to do with them. I don’t know what’s going to happen.” And then we’re taught not to know what the unknown is. And so, when you combine all that, it’s a beautiful recipe for a ton of anxiety.

Pete Mockaitis
I see. So, in a world full of unknowns, when we’ve only been trained and built up our capabilities in a world where the outcome is known in advance, we are sort of ill-equipped for the realities that we are in.

Joey Cofone
Exactly. And then you combine that with the fact that our instinctual reaction, fear reaction, is not really serving us the way it used to.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Certainly. Well, let’s get some more creativity flowing. I’m curious, when you mentioned assigning, I think about work in a way that the end is not known before you start, with the difference when you’re making a request of someone, or of yourself, instead of, “I want to find a specific app that does thing,” so we’ve sort of narrowed it to we’re looking for a software application, to, “I need to find a solution which will enable me to pull off this outcome.” Is that sort of the idea, is we keep it open-ended, like, “It could look like any number of things that delivers the goods”?

Joey Cofone
Sure. You’re even already moving probably too far down the line in many cases, where someone comes up to a problem that they haven’t encountered before, and they haven’t even sussed out that they need to find a piece of software to solve it. It is just a bit of a shock and an anxiety-inducing moment, and that’s where we get fear.

And so, actually, fear nowadays is a positive rather than a negative. Thousands of years ago, fear was something that said, “Danger! Danger! Don’t go that direction.” Today, fear, if you are tuned to it, is a, “Hey, man, go in that direction.” Because you’re afraid, you have identified a boundary, “If you go in that direction, you’re able to break a boundary.” Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Joey Cofone
When I was, I think it was 13 years old, I was sitting in a parking lot, McDonald’s, with my uncle, and we always used to go in together, and have a Big Mac each, and it was a wonderful time. On this particular day, Uncle Ralph decides, “Joey is going in alone.” And I said, “I can’t do it.” And he said, “What do you mean you can’t do it? It’s right there. Just walk in. Order it. You’re a big kid.” I was six foot.

And I said, “I’m afraid.” And I was honest with my uncle. And he grabbed me by the shoulder, and he looked me dead in the eye, and he said, “Because you are afraid, now you must do it.” And sure enough, I went in and I did it, and I never forgot that. And it took me a long time to parse what he meant, but it meant that my fear was showing me a limitation, and when I was able to overcome it, I was able to expand the boundaries of my capabilities.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good stuff. And I don’t think it’s that uncommon. I remember, in high school, there would be times when you meet a group of people, it was like, “Oh, should we order pizza?” And maybe a third of the people in the group were genuinely uncomfortable picking up the phone to call the place to order the pizza. You don’t even have to look at them in the eye. And I found that it’s probably worse now, I’m guessing, in the year 2023, as compared to back in the day for me.

Joey Cofone
Pete, it is bad now. It is bad now. I don’t want to call anyone out but I have experienced people who are close to our age who still won’t pick up the phone and make a call for something simple. Just like saying, “Hey, what time are you guys open to?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Maybe this is why DoorDash is really doing so well because you don’t have to interact with a human but you still get to eat what you want without moving. It’s a winning offer. All right. Well, let’s talk about this book here, The Laws of Creativity: Unlock Your Originality and Awaken Your Creative Genius.

You got 37 of these laws. Can you list some of them, maybe the top three, four, five that you think are just transformational for a professional who wants to be more awesome at their job, things you can do that don’t take a whole lot of time, effort, energy, pain, and sacrifice, and yet liberate a lot of good creative juiciness?

Joey Cofone
Oh, sure. I can name 37 of them that are really damn good but, since you’re limiting me to a few, I will, I suppose, choose. I’ll tell you right now that Chapter One: Be weird, it’s the law of expression. And it is chapter one for a reason. And it is simply stated, embrace the parts of you that’s called weird. Don’t hide what makes you different. Allow them to flow to the top and be seen.

Now, what does that mean, Joey? That means that, you know how when you grow up, and your parents tell you that you’re really a unique butterfly. And then you get a little older and you realize everybody tells their parents that, and then you don’t feel so unique when you have the same problems and the same challenges that everyone feels, and you kind of feel like you’re not unique at all. Well, actually, you are incredibly unique. They were right.

As what my geometry teacher in high school, Mr. Allen, would say, “Right answer, wrong solution.” They were just saying it because it’s an encouraging thing to say, but, actually, you are incredibly unique. So, Pete, give me three interests that you have. Give me a favorite book, a favorite movie, a favorite video game, or just a…Now, if I say favorite, it might be too much, so just name one you like of each of those three things.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, sure thing. For a book, well, right now I’m reading The Count of Monte Cristo, which is thrilling.

Joey Cofone
So am I.

Pete Mockaitis
No kidding?

Joey Cofone
How about that? That is wild. That is the book I’m reading.

Pete Mockaitis
I encountered it in an episode of “Wishbone,” the dog, if you watched that show. When I was 12 years old or so. I was like, “Well, that book is awesome.” And so, now, decades later, I was like, “Maybe I’ll go ahead and read that.” And so, that’s fun, about halfway through. No spoilers. So, that’s cool. For a game, boy, from my childhood, “Master of Orion.” You conquer the galaxy. Very strategic kind of form, the way I think, actually. So, we had book, game. And what else?

Joey Cofone
I would say movie.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s go with Batman, “The Dark Knight.”

Joey Cofone
Ooh, okay. So, we have “The Count of Monte Cristo.” What was the second one?

Pete Mockaitis
“Master of Orion.”

Joey Cofone
“Master of Orion.” I never heard of that one, man. “Master of Orion.” I’m writing these down. Good stuff. And then “The Dark Knight.” Okay. Cool. So, these are three things that you like. And now you have a lot of interests, we’re just going to take three. And let’s say, in each of those categories, we limit it to a thousand.

There are, just in those things, there is a billion permutations, okay? If there’s a thousand options of each. That means that, right away, if you can combine “The Count of Monte Cristo,” the “Master of Orion,” and “The Dark Knight” into something you create as really strong influences, you go from one in eight billion to one in one billion, okay? To one in eight, I’m sorry. My wife always says…

Pete Mockaitis
So, eight humans on the planet who…

Joey Cofone
That have this combination. You go from, I’m sorry, one in eight billion, to one in eight. Pretty interesting. Now, let’s add a fourth thing. Let’s say, what’s a TV show you like?

Pete Mockaitis
“Breaking Bad.”

Joey Cofone
“Breaking Bad.” Walter White.

Pete Mockaitis
I like it kind of dark, I think. It’s like I’m really a friendly person.

Joey Cofone
Oh, all these are like dark. Okay, so with the fourth added, permutations go up into trillion, and now you have 127 times the population of earth. When you put those four things into what you do, you become incredibly unique, and you’re way more than just four things, and there’s way more than just a thousand options. So, you can imagine the actual permutations, and when you get the stuff you like into what you’re doing, it is incredibly unique.

So, let’s take me, for example. I really like philosophy, I really like writing, and I really like the blank page. So, what did I do? I took philosophy, I took writing, and I added narrative, and the blank page, aka notebooks, and I combined those into a brand called Baron Fig that didn’t do notebooks the way I did before, and put it on Kickstarter, looking for 15Gs. We did $168,000 in 30 days, and this was 10 years ago before Kickstarter was a big deal, and that is rise and fall. And people loved it.

And to this day now, Baron Fig has, from that one product that we started with, the notebook, we now have made over 115 products, we ship in 95 countries, we have hundreds of thousands of customers, and we partner with incredible people like Netflix, James Clear, Roxane Gay to make wonderful things. And it is because I started by taking the things that I really liked and figuring out a way how to meld them together.

And anybody could do that, and you could do it on a big scale, like creating a company, you can do it on a small scale, like creating a presentation. But when you put yourself into your things, and as cliché as it sounds, when you be yourself, it becomes incredibly unique.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that makes sense mathematically. And I guess the holdup is just that people feel uncomfortable being weird, they think they’re going to get a social reprisal of some sort, like, “Ugh, okay.”

Joey Cofone
Pete, well said, dude. Well said. That is the chapter one, is that the problem is weird, the word itself has been weaponized. When we think about it, you are in grammar school, and, “Hey, don’t eat with the weird kid,” or you’re at work, “Don’t have lunch with the weird person.” “Okay, cool.” It’s literally weaponized and it ostracizes the folks in our bubble, in our everyday life, who are different than the rest. And the message it’s saying, the subtext is, “Be like us and conform.”

Now, here’s the really crazy thing though, and this is why the chapter is titled “Be weird” is because inside our bubbles, we force everybody to conform. However, outside of our bubbles, we absolutely celebrate and worship weird people. And I’m going to name a few people, these are not necessarily that I worship or care about but they’re good examples. Lady Gaga, weird, not in my bubble. We love her. Johnny Depp, weird dude. Jack Sparrow, super weird. Freaking love that. Elon Musk, Kanye West, so on and so forth. We celebrate weirdness as long as it’s not in my bubble. And so, when I say…

Pete Mockaitis
“You’re making me uncomfortable now that I have to live within you, but you’re being amazing in this in  the world that I’m enjoying consuming from afar.”

Joey Cofone
Right. So, I’ll end this by saying those folks inside our bubble that people are going, “Hey, don’t sit with that weird guy. Don’t talk to that weird guy,” what I see is the bravest person in the room because they’re the ones, despite being ostracized, are letting themselves be themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s very beautiful. And I do love reading about the weird things that folks do. I heard Bill Gates when he was a youngster, he’d just be in his room for a long, long time. His mom would say, “Oh, Billy,” I don’t know what she called him. Let’s pretend it’s Billy, “Oh, Billy, can you come on down,” and he’d say, “Mom, I’m trying to think,” like he’s just faking for a long time. He still does. He thinks weeks or think weekends, where, “I’m just going to be completely silent and read a bunch of things that are stimulating and useful for my creativity.”

Or, the dude. Hey, you’ve been a game guy. This guy in Japan, I forgot his name, he is one of the geniuses behind Mario and many other super franchises.

Joey Cofone
Miyamoto.

Pete Mockaitis
There you go. Apparently, he just carries around with him a tape measure, and has people guess the length of different objects, he’ll say, “Hey, how long do you think this is?” Like, “I don’t know, seven inches.” They probably use metric over there, centimeters. And so, you check it out, and you thought, “Boy, that’s weird.” And yet there is a little bit of a connection, it becomes like, “Oh, well, so part of your whole genius is representing things in a confined space, the dimensions of a screen or a video game.”

And so, that kind of fits that, it goes down like that. So, it is really fun for me to see the weird things people do. One weird thing I do…Look at you, Joey, you’re already liberating me.

Joey Cofone
Go for it. Let your weird out.

Pete Mockaitis
As soon as I will think of just the most wildly inappropriate thing to say or do in a given situation…

Joey Cofone
And see how people react?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And, in a way, that really does support my strengths in terms of I am pretty good at formulating words that work and people respond to because I’m also good at identifying the exact wrong thing to say. But someone walks in the steam room, I don’t know, this is weird. Let’s say I’m in a sauna or steam room, and so when I’m about ready to get out, if someone just gets in, and I think, “I don’t want to get out immediately because I don’t want to hurt their feelings.” I guess I’m really considerate, not that they care. But the weird thing I’ll do is I’ll think of the exact opposite of that.

Joey Cofone
You scoot next to him?

Pete Mockaitis
And, like, they walk in, and I just sigh, and say, “You know what, F this. I’m out of here.” So, that’s weird and ridiculous.

Joey Cofone
That is ridiculous. I like it.

Pete Mockaitis
But in doing this all of the time, one, it keeps me amused and lighthearted and entertained, but, two, it does kind of hone one of my strengths, which is communicating stuff to folks in a way that’s effective, in terms of I’m effectively trying to learn something with interview questions or I’m effectively trying to persuade, and that’s just, I think it’s funny. Like, the weirdness often, but not always, has relationship or overlap into strengths, genius, giftedness.

Joey Cofone
It does. It does. I like to acronym things.

Pete Mockaitis
All right, let’s do it.

Joey Cofone
If you’re like, “Hey, I’m going to go to the store,” I’ll be like, “H-I-G-T-G-T-S,” and I try to do it as fast as I can, and I have no idea why, but I used to be really good when I was a kid. I would go to bed, acronym-ing every sentence I did. And, lo and behold, like I became an English major, and then I wrote a book, and I think it all kind of ties together the ability to dance around words and letters, and be comfortable with them.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. All right. Well, that’s just one law, be weird.

Joey Cofone
Yeah, let’s do another one. I think there’s a powerful one that people are always like, “Man, that makes so much sense.” So, creativity, what is the…? I forget, what are they called? What is the base word of creativity?

Pete Mockaitis
Create?

Joey Cofone
You got it, but you don’t create in creativity. It’s a complete misnomer. It’s ridiculous. Unfortunately, people do think that creativity is creating. It’s not and it sucks because that means people don’t think that they are creative when, in fact, they are. It’s just expressing yourself. So, the law of connection addresses this.

And it says, base concepts can neither be created nor destroyed. They simply merge to form new combinations. Creativity is not about creating. It is about combining. And then I give some examples, and I’m going to give you a few examples right now. The iPhone combines a computer and a phone. The Avengers combine the allure of the gods and the relatability of everybody people. Pokemon, the number one franchise on planet Earth, combines our love of pets and our fascination with fantasy worlds.

Pete Mockaitis
And I would say in collections, too. We like to be collectors.

Joey Cofone
Absolutely. It’s multidimensional for sure. I just base it down into something that you can parse. When you ask…now, I call it the grandparent test, which is when you say, “Hey, grandma or grandpa, what is Tesla?” And they say, “Oh, those are those cars with batteries.” Well, you just figured out exactly the two things that someone combined to make this new thing. Or, Instagram is photography and messaging, so on and so forth.

And so, the number one thing to take away is that when you are being creative, really, you are taking things that exists and just mushing them together. And it’s a much more palatable way of saying, “Hey, maybe I am creative. I do that all the time,” rather than thinking you are creating from scratch because that’s not real.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that sinks. Well, I’ll put you on the spot, Joey. So, your notebook, I’m holding one. What was the genius of combination that went down here?

Joey Cofone
Great question. The genius of combination is that I did not care about the question you just asked. So, it’s the first thing people say, “What’s so special about your notebook?” I don’t know, Pete, what’s so special about Starbucks’ coffee? Does anybody care? No. It’s the brand. It’s the differences, the story that a brand is telling.

So, when I started back in 2013, and all these notebook companies were telling people about the GSM of the paper, and how hard it was pressed, and if it’s soft – what do you call it – textured or smooth. I didn’t say any of that stuff. What I said is, “We made a really damn good notebook because it’s really, really important that you have a place that you can trust to put really important thoughts, because we all put a lot of really treasured ideas into our notebooks.”

When we’re journaling, our deepest thoughts go in there. When we’re brainstorming on a project, something that we’re really excited about, and that we cherish, and that we can see the future, goes in there. A notebook holds so much that’s important. And when I started Baron Fig in 2013, that’s what I spoke about.

Sure. Sure, I made a high-quality notebook. The paper is better than any other notebook. I made a binding that I actually patented that opens totally flat. And I made a cover with cloth that no one had done at the time, and the bookmark is much more high quality. But who cares? At the end of the day, no one is like, “Man, look at that. Look at that bookmark quality.” Doesn’t matter.

I made them good, but the point is I want you to go to our website, I want you to see that the product and the people who created the product speak to you as a human being that puts important things down on paper, that you care about, and that respects it. And that’s what we did, and that’s why we’re still here 10 years later selling notebooks.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Joey, I’d love to also get your take, let’s say you’re in the heat of battle, it’s time to create, there’s a proposal to write, a thing to make, and you’re just hitting a wall, you’ve got “writer’s block,” or artist block, or just things aren’t firing the way you’d like them to be and have fired historically. How do you get into the groove, the mode, the mojo, the vibe, the flow to make it happen?

Joey Cofone
Good question. I do 50s or 100s. What are they, Joey? Another good question. Fifties or hundreds is you list 50 or 100 ideas about something pertaining to the thing you’re trying to solve. And now here, the real twist is you’re going for quantity. You don’t judge. If it makes sense, you do it. So, I don’t know, if I’m writing or if I want to do a limited edition pen, I just got to write down 50. I don’t care if one is…I’m just coming up with it now.

A green pen, it’s called the pickle edition. Oh, a TV remote control edition. It has a sticker that’s a remote control that you slap on your forehead. Oh, let’s do the forehead edition where you roll the pen on your forehead and it creates really smooth feeling. They’re ridiculous ideas but they solve, even if they’re not good. And so, what happens is you detach yourself from the expectations of the outcome when you do these.

Pete, you’ve heard of the phrase quality over quantity?

Pete Mockaitis
Mm-hmm.

Joey Cofone
Now, very common and it makes sense. You want one nice thing over a bunch of mediocre things, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Joey Cofone
Totally fair. Problem is that phrase speaks to the destination, to the end. That’s like me saying, “Hey, Pete, go to the gym. Be strong.” And you’re like, “What do I do at the gym?” It skips over the middle. So, I’m going to rephrase it for us. Quality over quantity but quantity begets quality. And so, when you do a lot, you end up getting good. No one ever does their first shot on the court, or their first swing of a golf club, or their first chapter of a book, and says, “It came out perfect.”

Yet, when a lot of people who are uninitiated with doing some type of expression like that jump in, they get really upset that they didn’t succeed on the first shot, and that’s just ridiculous. Focus on doing a lot and the good stuff will come.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you.

Joey Cofone
Thank you, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Joey, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Joey Cofone
No, I am an open book, man. How do I like to say it? I’m at your service.

Pete Mockaitis
You open and you stay flat.

Joey Cofone
I do stay flat. Patented, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Fashion. All right. How about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Joey Cofone
Favorite quote is without a doubt, “The unexamined life is not worth living.” Socrates.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Joey Cofone
Favorite study is, huh, probably Schrodinger’s cat comes to mind just because it’s so misinterpreted. When he pulled that exercise, he was actually proving a point how silly it is that you could think that the cat is alive and dead at the same time. It was like a joke. But now people use it to prove that it’s a possibility, which is so ironic.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Joey Cofone
Favorite book, besides The Laws of Creativity, is The Phantom Tollbooth. Are you familiar with it?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Joey Cofone
The Phantom Tollbooth is a kids’ book, and it is about a kid who goes into a world of total creativity and playfulness, and the language and the pictures, and it’s absolutely great. You should read it once a year every year so it reminds you in 120 pages what it’s like to think with a kid full of wonder.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Joey Cofone
Coffee. Is that fair?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure.

Joey Cofone
Love coffee.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Joey Cofone
Favorite habit is I do at least one pushup every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m intrigued. Does it often turn into more than one?

Joey Cofone
It does often turn into a lot more. But the idea that I only need to do one is great. Then I do pushups, then I do some squats, then I do some lunges, and then I do some pullups on the pullup bar. And then, huh, wow, that pushup turned to a lot.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget that you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Joey Cofone
Well, I gave you my favorite one, which is quantity begets quality, so I’m going to stick with that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Joey Cofone
Go to JoeyCofone.com, and you will find all that you need.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Joey Cofone
Well, actually, yeah, I have a call to action. If you go to my website, you could take my free email course which will give you nine of the laws that you can judge for yourself whether you think you have it right about creativity or not.

Pete Mockaitis
Joey, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much fun and creativity.

Joey Cofone
Pete, thank you, man. It’s been a pleasure. And, everybody out there, thank you for listening. I hope you have a beautiful day.

Jul 19
0

686: How to Make Your Next Career Move Your Best Move with Kimberly Brown

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Kimberly Brown shares her top tips on how to make career transitions easier.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to make the next best move for your career
  2. The key indicators that it’s time to explore other options
  3. How to identify power players–and become one yourself 

 

About Kimberly

Kimberly Brown is a leading career and leadership development expert and an accomplished speaker and podcast host whose mission is to empower women and people of color in the workplace. Her personal and professional development company, Manifest Yourself, LLC, provides in-person and virtual workshops, trainings, and coaching to professionals looking to lead a dynamic career and life. 

Kimberly has had the opportunity to speak to and create workshops for many organizations, including the New Jersey Conference for Women, Ellevate Network, Urban League, Princeton University and National Sales Network, SXSW, among others. She is also on the Board of Directors for The Power of You Teens organization. Next Move, Best Move: Transitioning into a Career You’ll Love is her first book. 

Resources Mentioned

Kimberly Cummings Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Kimberly, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Kimberly Brown
Thank you so much for having me. Very excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m excited to dig into your wisdom. But, first, I want to hear a little bit about how you’ve studied vocal jazz for 10 years. What’s the story here? And any interesting adventures come from that?

Kimberly Brown
So, definitely, I think growing up, I was a kid who always liked to sing. When people asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, I said, “Whitney Houston.” That’s what I thought was going to be the career path for me, and I took piano lessons for a bit but I kept on trying to sing. But piano takes a little bit more skill to kind of learn the chords and all those things. My voice clearly was much more advanced than my hands were so I went to vocal lessons. And, oh, my gosh, I absolutely loved it, all the great Ella Fitzgeralds, the Sarah Vaughans. I actually performed a 26-song concert in 2005 to raise money for kids.

Pete Mockaitis

Twenty-six songs.

Kimberly Brown

Yup, I had a pop set and a jazz set. And I say that I’m retired after winning every talent show in undergrad, mind you. I retired. So, now, I only sing for folks who know that I sing. Sadly, it’s more funerals or weddings and things like that. But you can hear me in the shower or in the elevator. There’s great acoustics there too.

Pete Mockaitis
Do you sing in your speaking on stage?

Kimberly Brown
Oh, no. I’m fully retired.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so there we are. So, you’ve retired and you’ve moved on into the world of career and leadership development. So, yeah, tell me, when it comes to people and their careers, often you end up working with folks who feel stuck. What leads to people feeling stuck in their careers?

Kimberly Brown
Many times, I really believe it’s not having a plan. If you don’t have a plan to take yourself to the next level, it’s very easy to get stuck in your career. Not knowing what your next move is, not understanding what your own skills and strengths and how those manifests in the workplace, a lot of times people can find themselves being underemployed or unappreciated because they have no idea, they’re essentially treating jobs like old boyfriends or girlfriends, romantic partners, in that they’re just like they keep going on to the next. They get a little bored, they go to the next, they go to the next, hoping that it will get better and better and better and it never really does if you don’t have a plan in place to make strategic career moves.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, then when it comes to forming that plan, where do you recommend we start?

Kimberly Brown
So, the first stop is really understanding your own skillset and your strengths. I like to have folks who work with me go through a full assessment of all of their strengths, all of their opportunities, all of their weaknesses, their gaps, and really get clear on, “What are the skills that they’ve gained from every single job that they’ve had?” Every single job. That long resume that no one really ever looks at, the one you probably can’t even send to anyone that has every job on there and literally look back and say, “What have you learned? What are your strengths? What are the things you want to continue to use?”

“And what are the things that you no longer want to use? And how can we start to build a career based upon your strengths? And if you don’t have the strengths that you need to get to the next area, what are the things that we need to work on? What are the gaps that we need to attack in order to make your next move?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And so, you mentioned a full assessment. What are some of the key tools or resources or questions or things folks work through to get that picture?

Kimberly Brown
So, the assessment really begins with you. Where are you? What have you done? What are the key skills you’ve gained from all of your jobs? What is the feedback that you’ve consistently been receiving from leaders? And if you don’t have that feedback, we walk through how to get that feedback using a simple start-stop-continue exercise with people in your industry and people who worked with you.

Of course, there are traditional assessments we can do. I’m a big fan of StrengthsFinder or Strengths Profile by Cappfinity. Those are also great as well but I want the baseline to always be the experiences because, generally, where you’ve gained your experiences, how you gained your experiences, what you’re taking away in terms of skill sets and strengths, that’s the baseline for you making your next move. So, the assessment really focuses on where you’ve been and what you’ve learned.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, you talked about how to get that feedback. So, start-stop-continue is a good way to organize the conversation. But how do you recommend folks specifically say, “Hey, tell me what I should start, stop, and continue doing?” Or, how do you recommend approaching that?

Kimberly Brown
So, I always recommend finding time to have career conversations with your management. Many times, folks have one-on-ones, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, or team meetings, and those are focused on doing the work but career conversations are a little bit different. So, I always recommend that people reach out to their leader, and ask, “Hey, I’d love to have a one-on-one with you but focused on my career.” And ask them simple questions like, “What is it that I should continue to do in my role? What are you seeing as good skill sets that I’m building? What do I need to stop doing? What is going to prevent me from moving to the next level? And what do you need to see more of?”

And the big question I always ask for folks who are thinking about making their next move before it’s time for them to make their next move is the big question of, “What do you need to see from me in order to know that I’m ready to get to the next level, I’m ready to make the next move?” so you’re not asking that question when you’re applying for the new job. You want to ask that question well before it’s time for you to have to apply.

Pete Mockaitis
That is a fine question. And, yeah, as I imagine that scenario, I think there’s probably any number of unsatisfying answers you might get, like, “Oh, you’re great. Just keep doing what you’re doing.”

Kimberly Brown
That’s a fan favorite.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s not quite the right…that’s not helpful.

Kimberly Brown
No, not at all.

Pete Mockaitis
So, how do you recommend pushing or digging a little more?

Kimberly Brown
Now, 100% just like you said, that is the age-old, “Oh, my gosh, you’re fabulous. Things are great. End time.” It’s like, no. If you’re not getting good feedback from your leader, I recommend asking other folks, asking your peers, asking other people who’ve also been promoted, and sharing your experiences so they can share a little bit more insight on what it takes to move to that next level.

And then, also, honestly, having a candid conversation advocating for yourself, like, “Thank you so much. I love hearing that you think I’m doing really, really well. However, I want to make sure that I can be extremely planful, that I actually have a plan. Is there any direct feedback that you’d be able to provide me? Like, what is it that means that I’m doing really well? How do you know that I’m doing really well? What are the indicators for that?”

Or, even if you could call up someone else, like, “I saw that Joe got promoted last year into a similar role. What was it that made you know that Joe was ready?” Try and push back to advocate for yourself just a little bit more because feedback is hard. It’s very hard. Leaders don’t like it, employees don’t like it, so it’s really pushing the needle. And if they say that they need a little bit of time to think about it, make sure you circle back and push again.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And I think that is the perfect response along those lines of, “Oh, you’re great. Just keep doing what you’re doing.” It’s like, “Well, I couldn’t help but notice I wasn’t promoted,” in the nice or professional diplomatic way that you get there because, yeah, those are the realities, is that there is something…well, unless the organization is just broken, which I’ve seen some of. There is something that causes people to move up, “What is it? And am I doing it? And how can I do more of it?” Perfect.

And then you mentioned doing this prior to when you start applying to other jobs because you’re ready to be out of there. What are some of the key indicators that it may, indeed, be appropriate to move on and out from a current role or organization?

Kimberly Brown
So, I’m really big on role mastery and impact. So, when you have essentially mastered your role, when you are doing things with ease, when people are asking for assistance because you know that you have it down, when you’ve built relationships in your role so you have…I always talk about four key relationships that you need. So, you have great peers that you’ve networked with, you have teachers who can help you if you need help, or sometimes people call them coaches, and you have mentors, and you have sponsorships. You have those four key relationships.

If you know where your role fits within an organization, like, “What does your role do?” Every role has a purpose in helping the company reach some type of milestone, even if you feel like it’s a small piece. Like, there’s a reason why that role was hired. Once you really know those things and you could think about, “What is the value you contributed to that role? Have you been able to innovate? Have you been able to move the needle?” Once you’ve been able to do some of those things, then it’s time to start thinking like, “Okay. Well, I think it’s time I start exploring whatever the next move is in this role, whether it’s internal to the company or external.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then if we are looking to transition away, what are some of the most common mistakes you see?

Kimberly Brown
The most common mistakes I see are people relying on the amount of time that they’ve been at the company. Many times, people are like, “Oh, I’ve been here a year,” or, “I’ve been here two years. It’s time for me.” It’s like, “No, there’s people who’ve been in roles for 10 years who still aren’t ready.” The reality is you have to make an impact. You have to articulate value and what you’re going to do moving into that area.

And I’m not sure what your feedback is on what I’m about to say next, but I think that, many times people want to not do a tinge more work to showcase that they’re ready for the next role, especially for folks who are moving internally. They’re a manager, want to be a director. An analyst, want to be a manager. Whatever it is.

But what I explain to folks is that in your role, you’re essentially in a box. Like, this is the role of the manager. You’re doing everything that needs to be done within this box. When you’re ready to move to the next box of the director, you have to showcase that you’re ready to leave that box to go to the next level. And in order to showcase that, you almost have to show people like a little bit. Give them a touch of what they’ll see from you as a director. And it’s important that you start doing a few of those things, making sure that you’re aligning more to a director role than you are to a manager role so people can literally see you in it.

A lot of times, when there’s a job search that’s happening, I used to work in talent acquisition as well, and when you have someone who is internal applying to a job, and you have someone also who’s external, the internal person, you’ve essentially been in the longest interview of your life. They see you every single day. They know you. And if they have questions, like, “Well, why didn’t so-and-so start doing this already? Well, l really don’t see them doing this. They’re doing so well in their current role.”

Versus an external person can come in and just sell them the world because they don’t know them, they’ve never seen their work, and they can easily align to that director role. So, I think it’s really important that when you’re thinking about moving, you start thinking a little bit more on the level you’d like to be on versus the level that you’re currently at.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And, well, if you wanted my feedback on what you said with regard to doing a touch more work, I think that’s the right answer to advance in your career. But I think it’s also true, what you said is that a lot of people don’t want to do it, yeah, because it’s like, “Well, I’m not getting paid for that. I don’t have the title. It’s like they’re not paying me to do that, so it’s unfair or not justified in the give-and-take relationship between me and employer to do that while being paid what I’m currently paid.”

But what I’ve seen is that frequently your fastest movers and shakers are already doing the next job, and the promotion is kind of a formality, like, “Hey, you’re already doing this. We’d be embarrassed if we didn’t give you the title or the raise, promotion, etc. associated with that.” So, yeah, I think that’s kind of how it shakes out.

Kimberly Brown
Oh, God, I’m happy we’re aligned there because some folks are like, “Nuh-uh, don’t give them a preview till you get the paycheck,” and I’m like, “Nah, you get the paycheck when you give them a preview.”

Pete Mockaitis
Right, yeah. Indeed. And so then, when it comes to the networking world, you’ve got some perspective on identifying power players. Can you tell us how do we find them and build great relationships with them?

Kimberly Brown
So, in every industry, I strongly believe that there are power players. They are people who are at the head of the curve, the people who are the key stakeholders who everyone listens to. There are always a few key people that are great to really look at as sponsors in your network. So, the way I always try to identify them are looking up professional associations. Who’s speaking at the conferences?

If you’re at the conferences, virtual or in person, whose room is packed out every single time? Who is it that has your boss’ ear or your skip leader? Who’s the person who really has the power to make the decisions and you see being frequently called upon? Those are what I call the power players, the people where a business doesn’t happen unless you hear from them first, where they have a significant influence over whatever is happening in the workplace.

When we’re talking about power players, one of the key words there is influence. Same thing with sponsors. They have to be able to influence and impact change. Otherwise, they really aren’t a power player in the industry. So, when you start seeing people speaking at events, or people always tapping that person, you know that person has power in the workplace. And my key is always finding a way to get in the room with them. How can you get as close as possible, again, virtual or in person?

I think you could still do it virtually. In some respects, virtual can even be a little bit easier than trying to navigate yourself into a room in person. But find a way to get in the room. And whether it’s interacting with that individual at the event, even as simple as asking a really great question, or being super active in the virtual chat. Find a way to get involved with that power player and initiate some time, whether it’s a 15-minute meeting to introduce yourself, learn more about them, or attending quite a few events.

If I’m very honest, there are some people who I have relationships with now where it took me years to build a relationship. It wasn’t one time to get on their radar. It was multiple events, multiple things before I reached out and got any individual time with that person. I think, especially when you’re looking for someone who has influence, it’s going to take some time. It’s not going to be a quick one, two, three the first time you try to hear back.

And if you can’t get in touch with that person, I recommend also looking at who’s around them. So, let’s say there is a senior SVP in your workplace and you want to get in touch with them but you know you have not had any luck on getting on their calendar. Well, then who are their direct reports? Let’s see if we can get in contact with them and work your way around, so the next time when you try, you already have some relationships that are close and someone else who can refer you or make an introduction. Sometimes it takes a little bit more time to get that power player.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. And so then, so you stick with it and you keep your eyes open. You ask for those recommendations and you’re watching. And then how do you yourself become such a power player?

Kimberly Brown
Again, I think that’s so much about impact and value. It’s about being a subject matter expert, being the SME in your area. Many times, people believe that leaders have to have this big title, they have to be the SVP, the director, the super long title that is confusing, and you can barely say it yourself. But I really believe that everybody has the ability to be a leader.

You are hired for any particular role. That role has tasks and responsibilities. Regardless of your seniority, you need to be the subject matter expert for your role. Nobody needs to do that role better than you are doing that role. You have to lead in that role. When you are leading in your role, so you’ve mastered it, you are the person who they come to for questions or concerns, you have networked yourself appropriately so people also know that you are the best at that role.

You’re not just behind closed doors or in your virtual office, not speaking to anyone. That’s really how you can start positioning yourself as the go-to person and, ultimately, positioning yourself as a leader or the power player in your area. And, also, having that strategy, so knowing what’s next, which means having some of those tough career conversations even if your leader isn’t kind of giving you what you need, making sure that you kind of push forward or find someone else who can give you that feedback.

Having that strategy so you can continuously be evolving your career and moving to the next level, that will slowly but surely be able to position you. And, you know, for some folks, it takes time. For me, even thinking about my own career, for a long time, my goal was to be a director of career services in higher education. I spent nearly 10 years in career services offices working with people at 18 who don’t know what they want to do with their entire life, to people who are in their 60s who want to use all their experience and use that to kind of launch into something that just makes them happy in the world of work.

And I wanted to just be a director of career services running a large office. That was it. And I knew that in order to move to the next level, this wasn’t an arena where I’d be able to stay in one office unless I wanted to stay in one office for like 10 to 15 years to slowly work my way up. So, every two years, I made sure I knew what my next move was, I understood the skills that I needed to gain with each strategic move in order to build a career for myself, and also increase my influence.

I participated in conferences. I spoke at conferences. I always made sure I was able to level up in my career. And, ultimately, I did not get that director of career services job, but I became a director in a global Fortune 100 company in financial services leading some of their diversity talent acquisition recruitment efforts. So, you just have to make sure that you’re continuously leveling up and having a strategy for yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thanks for sharing your story there. And could you share also the story of someone you think did a fine job of kind of integrating all of these learnings and seen some cool results?

Kimberly Brown
Definitely, success stories. Like, everyone always loves success stories. I have a current client who I was working with who came to me because they were feeling stuck, they’re in one of those jobs that we talked about earlier, Pete, where they were just kind of over it. They felt underemployed, definitely underpaid, and they really wanted to start positioning themselves for leadership roles.

Then when we first started working together, she just wanted to get on track. So, we went through the assessment, we went through kind of understanding all of the skillsets, was she in a career that was aligned to what her goals were. And at that time, she was but she didn’t have the level of seniority that she wanted. She didn’t have the impact that she was looking for.

So, for that particular person, we worked a lot on the relationships. How can we start making sure people know about the work that she’s doing, networking, cultivating some of those sponsors, some of those mentors? And, in about three to six months, I think probably around the five-month mark, if I have my memory serves me right, she’d been applying to jobs and she finally landed a role.

And because she’d done so much work with building relationships, understanding her own personal and professional brand, she rocked this interview process, making sure that she was finally positioned for a role. A lot of it was the language she was using to make sure that she was no longer underemployed and being in a role that was in much better alignment.

She negotiated a $35,000 salary increase. She got added to a committee right away that was aligned with some of her career goals. And she was able to speak a lot about career pathing even in her interview process, so she knew what would be the next step for her, being very candid about looking for longevity in an employer and not just for a defined role.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, thank you.

Kimberly Brown
No problem.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Kimberly, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Kimberly Brown
No, I think this is good. I think you had me cover it all. I love how actionable all of our questions are.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, now could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Kimberly Brown
Yes. So, there’s a quote by India Arie. It is, “The only thing constant in this world is change.” I put it in my high school yearbook, and I think it’s so, so, so true.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Kimberly Brown
I really like the research on diversity, equity, and inclusion when it comes to privilege. I’ve been doing a lot of research on that, kind of looking into more of the privilege walks. I know Drexel has a lot of information on that arena.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Kimberly Brown
So, my new favorite book is Winning is Everything by Tim S. Grover.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Kimberly Brown
I think StrengthsFinder, the assessment, is one of my favorites. It helps you understand yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Kimberly Brown
I live and die by a planner and a task-list system that I use. I have it every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m now intrigued. What’s the system?

Kimberly Brown
So, I use Asana but better than that, I really do it in my notebook every single day. I prioritize my tasks by functional area, and for my business, by revenue impact in order of importance. I have a little color code system too. I’ll have to take a screenshot for you, but it helps me knock out even more every single day by having all those priorities in line and make sure that I’m working on what actually needs to get done versus the mini-tasks that we do all day that keep us from doing the big thing that we should be doing.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget that you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they repeat it back to you often?

Kimberly Brown
A lot of it is around confidence. I think I have a quote from my business, my manifesto that I always share. It’s, “You must believe in yourself and your vision. When you do this, you’ll manifest the life you desire.” And I share this a lot because when we’re trying to make any type of career change, I think the number one thing you have to do before we get into all the strategy pieces is believe that it’s actually possible for you.

And a lot of times, when we start talking about that, people are like, “Oh, my gosh, like that really resonates. Like, I didn’t even think that that was important. Maybe that’s why I haven’t been moving.” It’s, like, you have to believe that whatever you want to do is possible for you.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Kimberly Brown
I would point them to KimberlyBCummings.com. I’m also on all the social places. So, Instagram and LinkedIn are probably my favorite. LinkedIn, it’s my name, and Instagram is kimbcummings.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Kimberly Brown
Yes. So, shameless plug or not so shameless because you said I can share. But I’m a very brand-new author. So, in June 2021, I wrote a book Next Move, Best Move: Transitioning Into a Career You’ll Love and it is available wherever books are sold. And this is the process to help you put together a two-year career strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Kimberly, thank you. This has been a treat and I wish you lots of luck in each of your moves.

Kimberly Brown
Thank you so much.