970: The Top 12 Presentation Mistakes to Avoid with Terri Sjodin

Pete Mockaitis

Terri, welcome.

Terri Sjodin

Thank you, Pete. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m excited to be talking about being presentation ready, and you’ve been researching and teaching on persuasiveness and communications and presentations for decades. Tell us, any particularly surprising, fascinating, striking discoveries you’ve made about us humans and communication, and how we’re persuaded that really stick with you?

Terri Sjodin

Yeah, so as you know, my background is in speech and debate. I was highly competitive in high school and in college on the speech and debate teams, and so I’ve always had this awareness of the power and the impact of public speaking and persuasive presentation skills. And so, so fast-forward 20 years plus later, when we launched into this research study that did a deeper dive on the topic of persuasive messaging, we asked people, “Look, do you think that making a presentation mistake matters? Does it impact you getting a win or a deal or an opportunity?”

And 94% of our participants in the research study said yes, and that’s statistically a very high number, which I think is quite surprising. Secondarily, over 55% of the participants in the survey said that they had little to no presentation skills training over the course of their career, which means over half of the professionals in the market today are really doing the best they can with what they know through trial and error.

So, the goal behind the book and the research study was to help people build and deliver more effective presentations, whether they’re one-on-one, small group, or large group, whether they’re in-person, virtual, or hybrid, and then, what we know is that on some level, most people want to improve their presentations, but they just don’t know where to start, and that can be costly. So, in the book, and in the research, we identified the 12 most common mistakes, and help people course-correct faster so that they can get where they want to go.

Pete Mockaitis

Now, what’s really cool is your book is in the context of sales presentations, but the wisdom is applicable to all sorts of persuasive communications presentations. But what I love about sales is we’ve got numbers, we’ve got results, money dollars associated with them.

Terri Sjodin

Me, too.

Pete Mockaitis

So, can you share with us maybe a story of just what kind of a transformation is possible? If you maybe walk us through a situation where someone was doing some things wrong, they corrected it, how they did it, and then what they saw on the other end of it.

Terri Sjodin

Yeah, so I think one of my favorite stories is a confession of my own. I personally have made all 12 of the mistakes that we’ve identified in the book, and I try to take the reader or the listeners back to the beginning. As I mentioned, I kind of cut my teeth in this subject area when I was on the debate team. And what you learn early on when you go to a tournament is that it’s a pretty level playing field.

There are no matching uniforms if you compete in speech and debate. Everybody’s just given a number. And then six or seven competitors will go into a room, they deliver their presentation, and at the end of three preliminary rounds, the individual with the best overall scores prevails. They move on to semifinals and finals.

It’s pretty cut and dry, for better or for worse, you know if your talk was decent. But here’s the rub. I would stay, even if I didn’t win, and I didn’t always win, I wanted to, but I would stick around. I would go to the semifinals, I would go to the finals, and I would watch to see what was landing, what was working for that specific presenter, what made the judges or the audience lean in, and then I would go home and I would kind of tweak it and fix it and make my best guess at what I needed to do to make it better.

And the takeaway here is really very simple. You just don’t go back to the next tournament with the speech that didn’t win, but business people do it all the time. They go back out into the field over and over and over again. And I love that you made the reference to the fact that everybody sells something because I believe that to be true.

Even though we don’t always love the S-word, sales, whether you’re selling a product, a service, a philosophy, an idea, when you’re selling yourself even in a job interview or for a promotion, everybody sells something. And so, I hope that by helping people to understand what the most common mistakes are, then they can avoid them and again accomplish whatever their outcome is that they’re shooting for.

Pete Mockaitis

Terri, I love this so much. You’re bringing back fond memories for me of high school speech team. But what was interesting was I love that lesson right there in terms of learning, observing, turning everything into a source of wisdom there, because those who did not break, they did not get to the finals, they usually chose to go to the room where they were doing the original comedy finals.

They always rent the largest spaces for the original comedy, or OC, as they said in the biz, because that’s just funny, that’s entertaining. Like, “Let’s watch the funny guys since we’re stuck here until the bus leaves after the award ceremony.” And you’re saying, “No, I’m going to go see what are winners doing, and see what I can learn from them.”

Terri Sjodin

And isn’t that the takeaway for all of us? When we learn from the people who beat us out at whatever it is that we’re trying to achieve, then we can course-correct. But most people are moving so fast, Pete. They’re just, “I’m super busy. I don’t have time.” But what is it costing you if you don’t take the time to reflect and make those changes?

Pete Mockaitis

I hear you. Well, so you’ve got 12 mistakes. We’re not going to cruise through all 12, but maybe give us the overview of the three categories here.

Terri Sjodin

So, there are three main categories. The category of case development, “Did you build a persuasive and compelling case?” And then the second category is creativity, “Did you create a thought-provoking message, something that makes people lean in and go, ‘Oh, you know, I’ve heard this before, but the way you’re saying it, it’s landing in my mind in a different way’?” And then the third category is delivery. That includes your eye contact, your body language, but also everything from verbal missteps to the way that you deliver using visual aids. And in each of those three categories, there are four mistakes that live underneath each one of those main categories.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’d like to jump into the ones I found most intriguing.

Terri Sjodin

Okay.

Pete Mockaitis

And one of them, in terms of case development is, you say, being overly informative versus persuasive. Aren’t facts good, Terri? How is that a mistake to be overly informative? What’s the scoop here?

Terri Sjodin

So, in the overall study, there were over 5,000 participants, and this was based on individuals whose livelihood is dependent on their ability to build and deliver a persuasive message. And so, we said, “Looking back over the last six to 12 months, is there anything that you think cost you that win?” And data dumping or being overly informative really came up over and over and over again. It was in the top three. So let me kind of give you the top three and then we’ll kind of circle back to being overly informative versus persuasive.

So, the top three biggest mistakes that most people self-identified included being overly informative versus persuasive, winging it, and failing to close the sale. And you might think, “Well, do those kind of overlap?” And in a way that they do. However, being overly informative sounds like this, “We do this, and we do this, and we have this, and we’re number one, and we really care,” and it sounds like this very long laundry list, if you will, of attributes. But it doesn’t pass the “so what” test. It doesn’t feel compelling to me.

And so, you might feel very well-intended, like, “It’s my responsibility to go out and give a presentation that is incredibly informative, and then the individual will be able to make a decision.” But in today’s compelling market, what would help you and serve you better is if you can craft a clear, concise, and compelling message that answers the questions, “Why do I need this? How are you going to save me time? How are you going to save me money? How are you going to save me mental sanity?” The list goes on and on.

And so, when I’m helping someone, it’s because I’m helping them to understand, “Do you hear how you’re giving me more of a list of attributes versus compelling arguments that want to make me move towards action?” And when they have that aha moment, again, they can tweak their presentations and really focus in the brief amount of time they’re given into a place where they can go, “Oh, shoot, I can be more compelling.”

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. As we’re talking a little bit in the context of sales presentations and demos, I’ve been on the receiving end of many, because it’s very easy for people to get email addresses of podcasters. So, it’s right in the RSS feed, and so I get a lot of them. And then a fair number of them are cool software startup-y things in the podcast world. And that is, I would say, something I do see again and again and again. It’s, like, we hear about, like, “Oh, this is the history and the founder’s story.”

Terri Sjodin

“When you really care, and we have a lot of choices.”

Pete Mockaitis

Yeah, the background of something like the technical architecture, yadda, yadda. And so, what I really want to hear is, “This thing is awesome at delivering this benefit to you,” in terms of like, “Hey, these nine podcasters quadrupled their audience size once they started rocking and rolling with our platform for a few months.” Like, “Oh, yeah. That’ll do it.” As opposed to, “Look at these cool graphics.” Like, “Okay, those graphics are cool, but I’m not seeing how this helps me accomplish the things I want to accomplish.”

Terri Sjodin

And brevity is your friend. So, again, that kind of moves us into the creativity section, but we have such a finite amount of time, and so you have to ask yourself, “How can I creatively share my most compelling talking points so that I’m creating a rock-solid case?” and pairing that with an interesting story or anecdote that makes people go, “Oh, that was good, good nugget.”

And then when you pair those with speaking in your own authentic voice and delivery, that’s when people go, “Oh, that was good. I enjoyed that. You seem authentic. I feel like you did your homework. Your arguments make sense to me.” And in that course, people feel better about making a yes decision or a moving-forward decision or, “Yes, let’s make our next appointment time decision.”

And so, in the context of your entire presentation, I mean, the intention of this podcast is to help people to get where they want to go faster. And, allegedly, if we understand and respect the fact that people buy people, then how else do we communicate our people skills, if not through our verbal communication skills?

Pete Mockaitis

That’s well said. And I liked how you conveyed, when we’ve got a compelling case delivered creatively with a strong, authentic delivery, it just feels delightful, so we’re more likely to offer a yes. And even if you don’t, I’ve had this happen before. I’m on the receiving end, and I get something that hits all those boxes, like, “You know, my takeaway is, like, this is really cool, and I like you, but it’s not for me. But I am really pretty stoked to be able to start providing referrals in terms of, like, because I feel like I’m going to look good.”

It’s like, “You got to check out this. I think you’re going to love it.” It’s like, “It doesn’t work for me, but I think it’ll work for you, and Terri’s just the best.” And so, I think it’s beautiful that, even if you don’t get the immediate yes you were seeking, when you check those boxes to deliver a delightful experience, you’re developing goodwill and an asset of a stream of good things coming to you.

Terri Sjodin

I liked your use of delightful experiences. Let’s pivot on that for a moment. I thought you might find it interesting that when we were working with our survey respondents, and we asked them, of course, “What are the most common self-confessions?” but on the opposite side, we said, “Who better to judge business and sales professionals and other business and sales professionals? So, when somebody comes in to present to you and you’re the listener, is there anything you’ve observed that cost them the winner the deal or the opportunity?”

And the number one answer was none of the three that I just mentioned that were self-identified. The number one answer that people noticed in others is that their talks were boring, boring, boring. So, don’t you think it’s interesting that most people self-identify as overly-informative, but other people are boring? And so, we call that the third person effect because, even when we’re presenting, we don’t always see ourselves in the same lens that we see others.

And so, having that dual perspective of, “How do I see myself as a presenter? But also, what do I expect when I’m in the role of the listener?” That gives us a different way of constructing our message because we’ve looked at it from both perspectives, and that can be a winning combination.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s great, and I did want to talk about boring, boring, boring. Terri, tell us, what makes something boring? And how can we be not boring?

Terri Sjodin

So, all three elements can be tied up in a boring presentation. You can have a really flat boring case where you’re like, “Oh, I’ve heard this all before. There is nothing new here. I’m bored, bored, bored, bored.” It can also come from your creativity like, “Wow, you know, you made some really great arguments, but your stories, your illustrations, your evidence, boring, boring, boring. Old, flat, too much text on the screen. It just doesn’t work in the creativity standpoint.”

And then in delivery, it could be a flat, boring, monotone voice. It could be word redundancy. It could be the fact that you just don’t seem very enthusiastic about your own content. And then, even worse, one of the new things that’s come up is, if you’re in a hybrid environment, meaning you might have two or three people that are in front of you on a presentation, but maybe you have six or seven people that are offsite and they’re participating via Zoom or Teams, and so it’s hybrid.

And oftentimes, the presenter will forget the people that are online or offsite. They forget that they’re even there. So, they’re only presenting to the people that are in person in front of them, and so it’s super boring for the people that are offsite. So boring can be impacting all three elements of building your message.

Pete Mockaitis

I hear you. There’s a lot going on there. It could be a number of culprits to get after. Is it possible, Terri, that we can zoom in on a major offender in terms of, “This is a frequent and pervasive and intense cause of boredom that needs to be rectified”?

Terri Sjodin

The easy go-tos are when somebody uses way too many PowerPoint slides in their presentation and they’re text-driven, and they’re ultimately reading you their slides. That’s just horrifying, and it happens all the time. And when we ask people, “Why do you do that?” And they’ll say, “Well, Terri, I have to get through the material.” And my question is, “What’s the point of getting through the material if nobody’s really listening to what the heck it is that you’re saying anyway?”

Or, they’ll say, “It’s not my fault. I have to read these slides because legal requires us to be compliant.” There are all kinds of lovely excuses for it, but, unfortunately, it doesn’t serve the listener. And our job, our responsibility as presenters is to always put ourselves in the seat of the listener, “Do I want to hear this? Do I think it was interesting?” all of those things.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s true, yeah. It’s funny, I recently had to read a legal disclaimer as part of a podcast ad, which doesn’t happen that often, but it was a financial service-y thing, it’s like, “Okay, this is required, so I get it.” And I think, I got a kick out of it, it even said, and you’ve probably heard this before, maybe on the radio or somewhere, in the talking points, it said, “Double speed recommended if possible.” I was like, “All right, at least you know, at least you know people don’t want to hear it.”

And I even flagged it, like, “Oh, we got a little legal disclaimer here.” And so, you’re right, I think those excuses are maybe technically true, but there is often a creative way around it, it’s like, “Oh, and we’ve got a legal disclosure. You’ll note that investment results can vary, and this is risky, and those sorts of things. Feel free to read it afterwards as well.” And there you go. You handled it in five seconds and onward to the fun stuff.

Terri Sjodin

And to your point, I know it really does come down to the individual presenter. It’s our responsibility And no one illustrates that better than the Southwest Airlines flight attendants that give you the safety announcements in their own authentic voice, or in some sort of clever and fun way, because they know that most people aren’t paying attention. But if they put a little creative spin on it, then, all of a sudden, people are like, “Oh, I wonder where they’re going to go with this.” And they can take even the most boring and mundane and make it lively and entertaining.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s good. Well, now in the zone of delivery, can you tell us what are some of the top verbal missteps people make? And how should we fix them?

Terri Sjodin

So, the surprising thing about verbal missteps was that it was an area that most people did not self-identify, but it was highly recognized in others. And the other frightening thing about that particular issue is that it is rarely something that another individual will communicate to you. So, for example, if you’re saying “um” or “like” or “you know” every other word, it will be highly irritating to the listener, but nobody will tell you.

Another issue that comes up is when somebody mispronounces a word, we just let them go. But in the back of their mind, they’re thinking, “That person has no idea how to correctly use that word,” and it undermines your credibility.

Or, if they use just too simple or basic of wording, again, that’s not something that people will tell you. If you swear in a presentation, you might think, “Oh, well, I’m just being, you know, familiar. Like, it’s cool if I swear. It’s not a big deal. They could see that I’m really down to earth.” But we found in the research that people find it off-putting, and they’re just not going to tell you.

So, all of these little things, or if you’re a close talker, and you’re just talking, it reminds, brings memories back of a Seinfeld episode where people are speaking, and you’re like, “You’re impacting my spatial relationships.” All of these things, kind of fall under that category of verbal missteps. If you’re speaking too quickly, you’re speaking too slowly, the list kind of goes on and on.

But, again, if you think about it, when was the last time somebody really spent an hour thinking about the way that they speak, the way that they articulate a word, to focus on vocabulary variance, to think about pausing instead of using a filler word, all of those graceful, beautiful elements to take your presentation to another level? You can still be in your own authentic voice. We’re just dialing it in so that your own authentic voice lands with the greatest amount of efficiency and effectiveness.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, Terri, that’s so much fun. So, it’s perfect because, you’re right, you’re not going to learn about those without asking. And even if you ask, you still might not get it. Like, you’ll need to videotape it and have like a trusted person really review that with you in order to get it, and you won’t know. And it’s so funny the assumptions that we just make, which is, “Of course, people like the swearing.”

And maybe some people do but, I mean, it sounds like, generally, we’re better off not doing that. Maybe that didn’t need to be said but we’re, generally, better off not doing that. And maybe, I don’t know if you know, if our counterpart is swearing, are we well suited to match them, or are we still better off not swearing?

Terri Sjodin

Yeah, it’s better to not. It’s, when in doubt, leave it out. The other issue is… kind of bleeds into strange body language and gesturing where you might have your hands in your pockets, or you’re fiddling with a pen. There are all kinds of little weird, strange, and incredible things. So, the takeaway here is people say, “What can I do?” You have a couple of choices.

So, one is just do a scrimmage. If you have a big meeting coming up, you have a presentation opportunity, sit with a friend, a colleague, a spouse, somebody in your industry, and say, “Look, will you just kind of do a run-through with me, and take out your cell phone, and just hit the video button, and leave it on a stand.” And then later on, kind of talk it through, and then watch the playback so that you can see and hear yourself as the listener will. And that will give you some of the insights that you need to be able to course-correct.

Now, try not to be too hard on yourself. We all flip out when we hear our own voice. We don’t sound the same to ourselves as we do in a recorded scenario. Just to give you an example, did you feel comfortable the first time you heard your playback on your outgoing voicemail message or recording? You probably are fine because you have such a beautiful voice, Pete.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m honored, but I’m not. Well, part of it is microphones. Don’t get me started because I won’t stop. But part of it is microphone quality and voicemails are horrific, and I don’t know how to fix it. I’ve Googled this before, Terri. But then even beyond that, it’s just sort of surprising. It’s like, “Oh, is that what I sound like?”

Terri Sjodin

Right. Or, “Oh, I didn’t like the way that I sounded.” And most people re-record their outgoing voicemail message over and over and over again until they feel like they get it right. And what does that tell us? It tells us, once we become aware of the way that we speak and present, what do we want to do? We want to perfect it. We want to improve upon it. We want to make it better, and we don’t want someone to have a negative impression of who we are, even based on our outgoing voicemail message, so much so that many people don’t even have an outgoing message on their voicemail.

But we know that when people hear your voice, when they hear you speak, that they connect with you, and so avoidance is not helping. What will help is to embrace it, lean into it, let’s fix it, let’s have fun with it, figure out how to make your own style and personality and authenticity really come to life. And remember that it doesn’t have to be perfect to work.

I’m not perfect. I’ve made all mistakes. I make mistakes all the time, but I’m consistently trying. That’s all. I’m trying to level up. I’m trying to make it better. And in the course of that, look, we’re all going to have wins and losses, and it doesn’t have to be perfect to work, but you do have to try. That’s really the takeaway.

Pete Mockaitis

Understood. I want to get your take on visual aids. You say one mistake is just way too much text and reading it, bad news. Any other top do’s and don’ts there?

Terri Sjodin

I’ll give you some do’s. One of the things that really works beautifully is if we just step away from your PowerPoint deck. So, think of all of the other beautiful ways that you can augment a presentation that don’t require a PowerPoint. Maybe you just use the actual physical item and hold it up, or maybe you use other sensory modalities: sound, sight, smell, that feeling, a texture of something. Things where you’re asking yourself, “Well, how can I allow the listener to engage in my presentation with other sensory modalities that don’t require a PowerPoint slide?”

And that, in and of itself, will set you head and shoulders above your competition. They’ll say, “Well, that was clever,” and you’re like, “Really? Because I moved away from a PowerPoint slide, and I used the real thing?” But it’s just those nuances make a difference and show people you care enough to make a unique kind of presentation rather than doing the same old, same old.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s super. And when it comes to really forming a connection with listeners, any top tips there?

Terri Sjodin

I think it starts with really genuinely caring about the outcome of that conversation. Even when you and I were having our pre-call before we jumped on the interview, I just like to take a couple of minutes and say, “Hey, what would make this a great experience for you? What would make it great for your listeners?” And you said, “Well, that’s a great question. Most people don’t ask me that.”

I think it’s just showing people that you show up caring, and that really helps to build connection from the get-go. Now, different people will lean into different aspects of your talk. Some people will lean into the evidence. They want to know that you can provide ROI, and they want to see the numbers. Other people are looking at your pathos, your heart, your storytelling. Others will want to know that you have the credibility, the street cred, the experience, that you’ve got your degree, or that you’ve got 30 years of experience.

So, there are a lot of nuances that speak to credibility or driving connection, and it really will depend on who you’re speaking to. But I think, from a nice general perspective, opening with a real clear intention to make a connection, not just for the sake of doing it to get the job done, but because you want to have a good personal experience with those people, that will come through, I think. And I don’t know that you have to try so hard. It doesn’t have to be that hard. I think we probably overcomplicate that part of the process.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, Terri, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Terri Sjodin

I appreciate the time today. And I say this to people all the time, people ask me, “Gosh, Terri, what’s the hardest product or service to sell?” And the answer is, “The one you don’t believe in.” So, I can give you the greatest tips in the world for crafting a persuasive and compelling message but the first requirement is that you sell and represent something that you believe in at your core. And then after that, try to have fun with it.

I think, on some level, everybody wants to improve their presentations, and so I hope that this book, Presentation Ready, will help you to do that just a little easier. And if you’d like, maybe books aren’t your thing, that’s okay, you can watch the course. I have a course on LinkedIn Learning, so it’s free if you’re a LinkedIn Premium member, and that also covers the 12 mistakes. But my intention is to just get people to think about the gift of using your voice to make things happen.

There’s a beautiful quote that we often think that it’s comfort and luxury that are the chief requirements for happiness in life, when all we truly need to be happy is something to be enthusiastic about. And I’m hoping that I help people get just a little bit more enthusiastic about their next presentation opportunity, because the more fun you have delivering it, the more fun the listeners have receiving it, and that’s how you create a win-win, presentation-ready opportunity.

Pete Mockaitis

Lovely. Well, now could you share with us a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Terri Sjodin

Well, of course, the State of Sales Presentations Research Study I did in cooperation with my alma mater, San Diego State University, and if you would like, your listeners can access all three of the reports, the pre-pandemic, mid-virtual, and then the post-pandemic study, if they go to my site at TerriSjodin.com, they can download the studies for free. There’s no cost. They can get the research study reports.

Pete Mockaitis

Lovely. And a favorite book?

Terri Sjodin

My go-to would be Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. I’m an entrepreneur at heart, and so I really believe in the gift of entrepreneurial freedom and being able to contribute. I think we all have our own unique ways that we want to contribute on the planet. And so, I honor everyone’s right to use their voice, create, and to monetize that.

Pete Mockaitis

Alrighty. And a favorite habit?

Terri Sjodin

So I have this weird thing that I do. My friends tease me about it all the time. But when I have a dinner party or a lunch gathering, and everyone sits down, I say, “Okay, everyone, let’s do two-minute updates.” And I go around the table, and I ask everyone to give a two-minute update of what they’re doing personally and professionally so that everyone only has to share that nugget once with all of the people that are at the table, and then it stimulates really lovely dialogue. It gets people talking about things that are near and dear to our hearts, which is what’s going on with my friends and family.

Pete Mockaitis

And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks that they quote back to you often?

Terri Sjodin

There are so many little isms, I suppose, that I say, but I say, “It doesn’t have to be perfect to work but you still have to try.”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And if folks want a little more to get in touch, where would you point them?

Terri Sjodin

If people would like to learn more about my speaking opportunities or about Presentation Ready, please visit our website at SjodinCommunications.com, or the easiest way is to just go to T-E-R-R-I, Sjodin, and that’s spelled S-J-O-D-I-N.com, and you can access all kinds of information, including the research study, information about Presentation Ready, and much, much more.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Terri Sjodin

There’s a beautiful adaptation to a Shakespearean quotation, which reads, “All the world is a stage, and business and sales professionals play to the most discriminating audiences of all, their clients and prospects.” So, I encourage you to just take a little extra time to craft an engaging and persuasive message, and go make your dreams happen. That’s, really, it’s all up to you. I don’t know anybody who has a magic wand, so we have to kind of put our boots to the street, craft our messages, and go make it happen.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Thank you, Terri. This is fun. I wish you all the best.

Terri Sjodin

Thank you, Pete, for having me. I appreciate your time.