932: How to Have Breakthrough Conversations with Dr. Marcia Reynolds

Pete Mockaitis

Marcia, welcome back.

Marcia Reynolds
Yeah, thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I’m excited to dig into your wisdom, and we’re talking about creating little lightbulb moments within coaching conversations. Could you kick us off by sharing a couple of your most memorable lightbulb moments in such conversations?

Marcia Reynolds

It’s amazing to me how people always wanted to make coaching so complex that, oftentimes, that lightbulb moment can come with just some of the initial questions. I’ve been spending a lot more time when people start to talk about their issues, what they’re frustrated about, just the keywords that really stand out, asking them, “Well, what do you mean by that? When you say you’re really disappointed, tell me more about what are you disappointed about?”

That just asking them to explain what they just spouted off, often when they just start to think about, “Well, I did say that. What did I mean?” that that creates an aha, an insight. So, just even that, or, “So, what are the things that led you to believe that?” asking that question. Or, “If somebody were to argue with you, what might they say?” Sometimes it’s just those initial questions that kind of open people’s eyes and their minds. And so, I’m finding, even how I get into the conversation is just as important as what comes after.

Pete Mockaitis

That’s beautiful. Well, can you share with us how such a conversation unfolded and the lightbulb moment that emerged?

Marcia Reynolds

I was actually coaching this woman on how she shows up in her leadership meetings, and she says, “I just want to be more confident.” And I said, “So, tell me what confidence means to you. What does it look like?” And it’s such a throwaway term, and she was like, “Oh, oh. Well, I guess what I really want is to be able to disagree with someone, and to be comfortable with that.” Well, see, that’s a little different than just “Feeling good about myself, building my self-esteem.”

So, starting to move down that path, “So, tell me more about these times where you feel that your disagreement could be useful but you hesitated.” And it was just amazing when she started to lay out those moments and what she could’ve contributed, that that really led to easily, “So, what do you think got in the way? Let’s look at resolving that.” But it was defining what she really wanted to do, specifically, instead of this vague term confidence was so important to her to knowing what she really wanted to create for herself.

So, I often really push you’ve got to both have a very significant picture of what the person wants to create instead of what they have now. It can’t be a vague term. It can’t be, “I need to make a decision,” or it can’t even be an emotion, “I want to be happier.” It’s got to be a picture you and I can both see. And working to even just create that picture is so powerful for people to recognize this in their own head, that it makes the rest of the coaching easier.

And you can do this in any conversation. It doesn’t have to be a coach to a client, but a leader, a parent, that just asking those questions, “What do you mean by that? Can you expound on that a little bit? What would it look like if it were different for you?” That alone makes such a difference for people not just in their own understanding but they feel like, “Oh, you care enough about me that you want to help me walk through this.” It’s very engaging, so.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, I was going to ask just that in terms of what do you suppose is the magic at work here, Marcia? Why do we suppose this works the way it does? And it sounds like there’s one skeleton key right there is folks really feel heard, appreciated, listened to, validated, cared about, and that’s powerful in our humanity.

Marcia Reynolds

Right. Right. So, I’m going to step into the conversation with you. I’m going to be willing. I feel safe to share what my fears are, what my doubts are, and that’s a big thing. The other part of it, on the science side of it, is that I’m using a different part of the brain when I ask you these questions instead of telling you what I think. If I tell you what I think, you’re using your cognitive brain. I’m actually pacifying your brain. You don’t have to think other than, “Oh, that’s a good idea,” or, “That’s stupid.”

But when I start to ask you these questions, you start to use the middle brain, which is the creative part of your brain, and you start having to really think things through, and it makes new connections, and that’s how we have a lightbulb moment, is that we see something we had not seen before. And that actually creates new connections that are sustainable. You don’t go back to what you were doing and how you were seeing things.

Which, when I tell you what to do, if it feels kind of awkward, you’re going to say, “Well, that was dumb. I’m not going to do that anymore.” But when you come up with it on your own, and you change your perspective, you’re likely to commit with more confidence to making a change.

Pete Mockaitis

Certainly, as opposed to just passively judging, “That’s cool,” “That’s dumb.”

Marcia Reynolds

Exactly, which is what we tend to do, right?

Pete Mockaitis

So, I’d love it if we could zoom into the context of professionals talking to other professionals, as opposed to a full-blown executive coach working with a coaching client. I’m wondering, how the context shifts and what things we should keep in mind when we are working with one of our direct reports, or even just a peer and a colleague?

Marcia Reynolds

Well, like I said, this can work in any conversation, but the main thing is that you’re very clear on your intent. I I go into the conversation with my intent is that I’m going to make you do something, then your questions are going to come out like judgmental or condescending, and they won’t engage.

So, I can ask, “Okay, so you used the word confidence. Explain to me a little bit more what confidence in this context means to you.” That’s different than, “What do you mean by confidence?” So, your intention will often shape the conversation. So, when I teach leaders a coaching approach, because I don’t make them into coaches. I can’t do that in a short workshop, but I say, “You start with intent.”

“Are you there to really help them achieve something they want, not just want you want? But you’ve got to know what they want. So, if you don’t know, start there. What would be important now for you to make a change? Do they want to be a leader? Do they want to have better relationships on their team? Do they want less stress? What’s important to them, because you need to tie the conversation into something they want, the what’s-in-it-for-me? And they need to know that you care enough about what they want.” So, it starts there.

And that no matter where you are with them, you might be disappointed, you might be angry, you have to also manage and actually set the emotional tone, whether you’re a leader or a colleague. You go into the conversation with, “I care about this relationship and I want to really have a good ending.” If you go in disappointed, angry, then, again, your emotion is going to impact the result of the conversation, even more than the words you choose.

So, you have to choose your emotional state, know what the intention is, and always respect the person you’re with, the human you’re with, they’re on a journey. And whatever they did, most people are trying to do the best they can with what they know, and they’ll get better. They may not have the experience you have, but just telling them what they should do, that doesn’t help either.

So, having a conversation where we can explore their thinking, and then even asking that question, “If someone were to argue with you, what might they say? Are there some things in their argument you might want to consider?” It’s better than saying, “Well, there are some things you should think about. You didn’t about this, this, and this,” but to ask the questions instead will help them to sort through their thinking and to see other possibilities. So, it’s intention, emotional state, and respect, that’s really critical to all these conversations.

Pete Mockaitis

Now I’m curious. When you say choose your emotional state, that sounds like a prudent thing to do but, in practice, I think my experience is that it can be a little bit tricky to just select from the menu of emotional states, it’s like, “Yes, this is the one I’d like. I’m currently feeling tired and crabby and irritable. But what I would like to feel is compassionate and loving and curious. Ah, yes, punch in those buttons and I’m now experiencing that emotional state.”

It usually doesn’t quite work out that way for me, even if I make my power moves and do all the things Tony Robbins told me to do. How do you recommend we…?

Marcia Reynolds

Well, it can be a cognitive process, and that’s what you’re saying, “Okay, I’m going to choose this, then I want to be this.” So, like you’re driving in your car, and the traffic is awful, and you’re tense, and it’s crazy, and you say to yourself, “I should feel patient. I should feel patient.” It lasts for about how long? So, you have to do something that’s going to help you to actually embody patience, so maybe turn on some music.

What I used to do when I used to make this long drive, the traffic was so jammed up, that I would just look in the sky and look for hawks because there was always a lot of hawks in the area, and I wouldn’t see them if I didn’t look for them. So, by looking for the hawks, and remembering I’m in this beautiful place, and turning on some music, I can start to feel a different state.

So, you have to feel it in order to shift. So, do you know what compassion feels like? What would it take? What do you have to feel about this person in order to feel compassion? And if you go into a conversation, and you’re just so kind of disappointed with them that you can’t, then at least say that, “I really want to be here in this conversation, and I’m disappointed because you promised this three times and haven’t done it, so I’m having a little hard time getting over that.”

So, explain it, don’t fake it, and then see what happens but that’s what emotional intelligence is. The word intelligence, the root of the word is choice between, that I have choice if I want to. If I don’t want to, I want to stay angry with you, then I’m going to stay angry, but at least choose anger. You do have the power to choose but you have to feel it. It’s a biological state, not just a cognitive state.

Pete Mockaitis

And when it comes to these lightbulb moments, I think these are fantastic principles and controlling what’s within our control, in terms of choosing the emotional state, and the intention, and such. At the same time, I wonder, it seems like a good part of it is really not up to us, even if we show up at our maximum.

And lightbulb moments, it almost feels like something…well, that’s what’s so intriguing about your book, it’s like, “Oh, lightbulb moments, huh? Like, can those just be engineered, we just make, push the button, make that happen? That seems impossible.” So, tell us, what are the conditions in terms of the environment or the person that we’re engaging with that also need to be present or boost the probability of us having some of these lightbulb moments?

Marcia Reynolds

So, first, I want to say that when I coach people, and their result is going to be based on somebody else, like, “Oh, okay, I’m going to go have a conversation with so and so,” I always, then, ask the question, “Well, if it doesn’t turn out like you wanted to, what will you then do?” because we’re not in full control of where they’re willing to go. So, to know that. But even then, if I sense resistance, then I’m going to say, “When you said that you were going to make this change, you didn’t seem to have commitment in your words. So, what’s the hesitation?” And so, I will ask about it.

What a lot of people don’t understand about coaching is that it’s not just asking questions. A lot of it is just reflecting. And I have found even far more power in the reflection than the question. So, if I said, like with the confidence example, “You used the term confidence. Tell me more about that.” I would have to use that. I wouldn’t just say, “Tell me more about what you just said.” I would use the word she said.

Or, with the hesitation, “You seem to be hesitating. It’s like you said it but you sighed before you said it. That doesn’t seem like a real commitment.” So, I would share what I noticed, and ask the questions. So, it’s that, that sharing back of what I hear, what I notice, what I witness that they then take in their whole experience, and then speak to it. And that then helps them to see beyond that.

And maybe they’ll say, “Yeah, I don’t really want to do this.” And that happened to me once, I said, “Okay, so we’ve had this whole conversation but you don’t really want to make a change.” “Well, no, not really.” I said, “Okay, so can we back up a little bit and take a look at what is it that you really want out of this situation?”

So, I think that really getting good at recognizing what needs to be shared back, and that’s all a part of being really present, to hear, “What are the key things? Or, what did you just notice that was significant, and share that back?” That’s really what being a thinking partner is, and that’s what we are when we’re doing even a coaching approach to the conversation. And that’s what creates those creative insights. A lightbulb moment is really just a creative insight that I have.

And then I help you articulate that because it doesn’t mean anything if you just go, “Oh, okay, great. I get it now.” It’s like, “Well, what did you get? Would you be willing to share that?” They must articulate the insight before they can act on it.

Pete Mockaitis
And you mentioned staying present, I think that distractions are omnipresent in our world, externally and internally. Do you have some best practices or favorite approaches you use when you find yourself drifting to get right back in the groove?

Marcia Reynolds

Well, Pete, there’s two things. Drifting before the conversation and drifting in the conversation are two different things. So, before the conversation, you can do some mental preparation, “What is my intention? What is it I’m feeling? Can I make the shift? Or, if I can, how will I address it? Do I respect this person?” You can mentally prepare.

During the conversation, that’s just a discipline of starting to notice. There’s something out my window distracting me, which I had to move, actually, my computer because I was getting, like, all kinds of wildlife out my window, it’s very distracting. So, I have to create this space where I’ll have less external distractions that will pull me away.

But staying, if I’m listening to share back with you what I’m hearing, what I noticed, the reflection, then I have to stay present to that, otherwise I’ll miss it. And I can see it. When I mentor coaches, and I’m watching this, and I see the key moment that they missed, I can tell that they got stuck on something that was said before, and they’re just waiting to ask this question. It’s like, “I’ll wait till this person shuts up so I can ask this question.” That’s a distraction because, then, maybe what they said after you noticed that was even more important.

So, “Can I stay with this person to really hear what’s going on with them so I can pick up the key elements that I want to share back?” That requires me to stay present in this moment, and it is a practice. It’s more important to practice, that being present in the conversation than even what I’m going to say.

Pete Mockaitis

And I guess, this is practical note, if someone said something you really want to follow up on, should you just write it down so that it’s there for you later?

Marcia Reynolds

I may write down one word. I don’t want to write a whole bunch because then they’re looking at the top of your head. But I might write down just one word, especially if I’ve got a verbal processor that’s like all over the place. Like, even just an hour ago, I had a client, and she tends to do that to me. She’s like, “Well, I want to talk about this,” and then she’ll drift off down this path, down this path, down this path.

And so, I will even say, “So, you kind of gone down some different paths. Do you want to go back to the original path? Or, is there’s something now that’s coming up for you that’s more important?”

So, I will indicate to them that there was something that seemed to be important. And I invite them to choose, “So, where do you want to focus on now?” and pull them back down. And most of the verbal processors that I worked with appreciate it because they know they are all over the place, and they’re always like, “Thank you for making me just drill down to what it is I really want.”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, Marcia, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Marcia Reynolds

This comes back to what you were saying at how important it is that people feel engaged. To remember why we’re there, I always say, “I’m not there to make people feel better.” We often think our conversations have to be, “Rah, rah, you’re so great, blah, blah.” We’re there to help people see better. And even if it’s a little painful for me to see some reality I had not seen before, I appreciate that you took the time to help me with that so I can move forward.

So, don’t ever think people can’t handle it because that’s truly what they see of value is, “You helped me to see things in a way I couldn’t, that helped me learn and grow.” So, I always say you aren’t there to help them feel better. You’re there to help them see better. And I think that’s a significant thing, a role that we can play for other people in our lives.

Pete Mockaitis

Oh, lovely. Thank you. Now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Marcia Reynolds

I have a quote on my wall that just says, “It doesn’t really matter that which I’m afraid if I’m acting in the service of my vision.”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Marcia Reynolds

So, there was a study done last year, where it was just 16 people, but that’s how studies start. They start with a sample.

And they talked to these people to find out something that was important for them to work on, as we would in coaching. So, each one had their own personal dilemma, issue, decision, that they wanted to work on. So, they then, each person, first off, they gave them a really nice room, a comfortable room, quiet, no distractions, to where they can start thinking this through.

Now, all of them had on brain monitors, so they were monitoring brain activity. And then, afterwards, they talked to them about, “So, what did you discover? What were your insights?” So, they put them in the room, and they did this, and then they took them out, and gave them a mentor, somebody who would share their experiences, their suggestions, their ideas. Again, monitored the brain.

And then both things, both situations, it was actually similar brain movement, not spiky, it had some movements, they came up with some ideas. But then the third scenario, they had them sit down with a coach that used reflective inquiry, what I was talking about. The brain monitors went off the charts, they were like, “Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah” all over the place.

So, when I said to you it pacifies people’s brains when you tell them what to do, but even self-analyzing, we don’t do this well on our own. And so, the third, with the activity, and then afterwards, they came up with all these different things that they hadn’t thought about before. And so, it just demonstrated for the 16 different people, with 16 different issues, had similar responses on their brain monitoring, that it was the coaching that had such a huge response in their brain.

Now, of course, they need to expand this out with other people, other scenarios, cultural differences, but, to me, that was just like, “Well, there it is, there’s the chart.” And I loved that research.

Pete Mockaitis

Well, that is good. And I’m curious, either from your own experience or from the study, are there any particular prompts, or patterns, that you can just tell, “Wow, when you prompt somebody with this, those wheels get turning”? Anything leaping to mind there?

Marcia Reynolds

Yeah, just asking someone, “So, how do you know that to be true?”

Pete Mockaitis

All right, that’s awesome.

Marcia Reynolds

Sometimes it’s as simple as that, but always after a reflection, “So, you told me that you think everybody is out to get you, you don’t have any allies in this company. How do you know that to be true? I’m just looking for the evidence.” And you know what so interesting, Pete? There are so many times I’ve had leaders start by saying, “Well, the team is resistant, and they don’t want to make changes.”

And I’ll say, “The entire team?” “Well, no, not the entire team. It’s just a handful of people.” “Okay, so you’re telling me that there’s a handful of people that are really resistant to this?” “Well, it’s actually just this one person that’s kind of really stirring, rocking the boat.” And it’s so interesting that, again, so I’m just looking at, “So, this is what you’re telling me, is that true? This is what you’re telling me, is that true?”

And how that brings forth, again, their thinking that they really narrow down their general statements to specific that makes the difference.

Pete Mockaitis

And could you share a favorite book?

Marcia Reynolds

I’ve been a follower of Robert Sapolsky for years, and he has a new book out on free will. And it comes back to what you were saying earlier, “Can we really change in that moment?” And a lot of the neurosciences say, “We don’t have a lot of free will. The more you are flooding with an emotion, the more difficult it is to actually choose. Your brain chooses it for you.”

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And could you share a favorite tool, something you use that helps you be awesome at your job?

Marcia Reynolds

Well, actually, I’ve been using, for email, a thing called Sanebox. You know Sanebox?

Pete Mockaitis

I do.

Marcia Reynolds

I absolutely love it because it sorts all my mail into what I should be reading right now, what maybe I might want to read, what I can totally throw away, and it does that quickly. And I just need to do that. We’re so inundated with email. So, that’s my favorite.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And now it’s time for a Marcia quote, something you share that folks quote back to you again and again.

Marcia Reynolds

“They really want you to be present more than they need you to be perfect.”

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. And, Marcia, if folks want to reach out to you or learn more about your book, Breakthrough Coaching: Creating Lightbulb Moments in Your Coaching Conversations, where would you point them?

Marcia Reynolds

To my website. It’s CoVisioning.com. There’s a book page that has all the books, but also there’s a link if you do purchase the book, you can get a whole e-book of tools and tips and exercises. So, there’s a link on the book page on my website.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Marcia Reynolds

Work on letting go so you can receive, not just listen, but fully receive what people are saying and what they’re expressing. If we can do that, it makes them feel you’re there with them, as well as you actually hear them.

Pete Mockaitis

All right. Well, Marcia, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you many lightbulb moments.

Marcia Reynolds

Thank you. Thank you, Pete.