922: How to Reinvent Yourself and Your Career with Herminia Ibarra

Pete Mockaitis
Herminia, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Herminia Ibarra
Hi, how are you?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m doing well. I’m doing well. I’m excited to talk career transitions and your latest edition of the book Working Identity. But to kick us off, I’d love it if you could tell us a couple stories of any particularly memorable career transitions that you’ve had the pleasure of studying or working with. And maybe for funsies, let’s have one be amazingly delightful and one totally disastrous.

Herminia Ibarra
All right. Let me try. Delightful and disastrous, all of them have an aspect of delightful and all of them have their challenges. The one that’s coming to mind is a really fun one was a very straight-laced mid-career person who felt that he had always done what he was supposed to do, got really thinking about what he himself wanted.

And so, at some point, he decided to explore. He took a sabbatical and started to explore. And in his head, one of his big ideas was he loves scuba diving, and, “Could I do this for a living?” And so, one of the things that he did was to take the sabbatical and to get certified, and to explore the financials for buying a scuba diving operation.

And, very fortunately for him, as the sabbatical played out over a couple of months, he realized towards the end of it that it might not be so much fun to spend his whole life doing that, and that the salary he would take relative to the business work that he was doing was probably not worth it. But he was able to say, “I explored this to the hilt, and now I know it’s not what I want but at least I gave it a go.” And so, he was very happy to be able to cross that off his list.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And do you have another side?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah. Well, a disastrous one, I’ll tell you a disastrous one that eventually worked out. The disastrous one was a woman who was leading the change leadership practice of a consulting firm, and she wanted more balance, she wanted to run something, there were a lot of things that were wrong with it.

Pete Mockaitis
She needed to lead a change in her own career, it seems.

Herminia Ibarra

Yeah, and she did not have time to explore other possibilities. This is a challenge a lot of people face, “I work too much. I don’t have the time or the energy.” So, she saved up, she really planned, and got ready to start exploring but, in no time at all, was feeling, like, “Oh, my gosh, what do I do? And what’s going to happen? And what next?” And she would notice that in her networking, that since she was out of job, people didn’t want to network with her. She wasn’t especially useful.

And so, as she got nervous, she ended up taking a role that a headhunter brought her, which was to do something similar in a company to be heading up strategy. And she thought, “Okay, here’s a change,” and she thought she had negotiated more that work-life balance she was seeking, but as soon as she started the job, it became obvious that it was worse from a trial and work-life balance point of view. And not only that, as a newcomer, she hadn’t built up any capital to be able to kind of work around it.

And so, she felt really, really stuck, and came to the conclusion that she had to quit before it really took off because it was just, really, she wouldn’t be able to extricate herself for a couple of years. So, she quit and then really found herself with nothing at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that sounds disastrous. Shucks! Well, I hope she’s okay. Do we know what happened after that?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, it ended happily ever after, in the sense that she said, “All right. I obviously am not trusting my instincts here. Let me try to do a bunch of different things.” She set up kind of a freelance advisory that allowed her to pay the bills, which she was able to do because she was very good and she had a great network.

But this time, she set aside a little bit of time to kind of play around with things that she was interested in. She did some nonprofit volunteering. She did a bunch of stuff. And over time, she made her way towards developing a whole new career in the space around consulting for nonprofits, which she was very happy about but it took a while for that to materialize. It really started out as a kind of, “Here’s a hobby. Here’s a thing I enjoy doing. And let me do that. Just stay sane.” And it became her next career.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, good news. Thank you for sharing how that unfolded there. Well, these stories are awesome because they’re already pointing to some key points associated with doing this career transition thing effectively, is having the opportunity to try some things out, to get a taste of things in advance, and sometimes you learn, “Oh, wow, cross that off the list. Scuba diving is not the thing,” and that’s valuable.

And that reminds me. I had a conversation, this was funny. There was a period of time in my career in which I did thousands of case interview coaching sessions for aspiring consultants wanting to prepare for those interviews. And one of my favorite sessions, this happened only once, was I worked through the case, and I said, “Okay. Well, hey, here’s some feedback. So, kind of what I was looking for is for you to put forward a hypothesis and then a structure, and then you game plan for what sorts of things you were going to investigate in order to assess whether or not that’s what’s going on, and to drill down into the more relevant issues.”

And he said, “Oh, wow, my brain doesn’t go that way at all. I guess I don’t want to be a consultant.” And it was awesome.

Herminia Ibarra
That’s fantastic.

Pete Mockaitis
He paid for the session, and I was a little worried, like, “Uh-oh, did he get what he paid for?” And he was thrilled, he’s like, “Wow, in one hour, I have determined that I am going to not pursue consulting at all, and look at these other opportunities instead. Thank you so much, Pete.” I was like, “Well, thank you. I’m so glad we had a positive exchange here.”

Herminia Ibarra

See, that’s fantastic because one of the things that I have found is that people have all kinds of ideas in their heads of what they like and they don’t like, and they often don’t check out in reality. Just last week, I was talking to a reporter, a journalist from the Wall Street Journal, and she told me that she had dreamed forever of being able to write for a living, to just write books.

And she gave it a try and she couldn’t stand it. She got her book but jumped right back into a journalism job because she just did not want to do that exclusively. She realized it wasn’t for her. And so, the big lesson is really to try as actively as you can, especially before making any kind of big leap, because we don’t really know whether we would really enjoy these things or not. All we know really well is what we don’t like anymore or what we don’t like about our current job, but we don’t know what we’d like to do instead. And so, exploring and experimenting is really vital.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And that seems to be a real theme associated with the book Working Identity is that we’ve got to try and do things, we have to experiment, get a taste and see how it fits, how it feels. Can you share with us what are some of the alternative viewpoints in terms of doing a career transition? Like, what would you say, Herminia, is what not to do when you’re making a career transition?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, the conventional approach is to figure out what you want and then create a plan to execute it. You know the answer, “Where do you want to be five years from now? And then what are the steps? And then what class do I have to take? Or, who do I need to meet?” And then just kind put it all in place. It works quite well when you do know what you want. And it also works quite well earlier in your career where you’re more likely to go into kind of, like, a structured setup.

It works less well, or not at all, when you don’t know what you want, as is the case for most of the people that I talk to who, for mid-career on, they know what they don’t want, but they do not know what they want instead. And it works less well also when you’re more experienced because there’s just more pathways from A to Z, or from A to D. There’s more different approaches that you could take to get to where you want to go.

Pete Mockaitis
So, figure out what you want is perhaps easier said than done, or folks have a misunderstanding of what they thought they wanted. Or, can you unpack this for us?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, see, there’s all kinds of things. We pigeonhole ourselves, you say, “Oh, I’m not a creative person,” or, “I’m not an entrepreneurial person,” or whatever. We pigeonhole ourselves. There’s all kinds of things we’ve never been exposed to before. Sometimes you meet somebody by serendipity, discover what they’re doing, think, “Gosh, this would be fascinating.”

So, there’s lots of reasons, you haven’t seen it before, you don’t know it exists. It wasn’t necessarily what you were thinking about. Whereas, we get fixated on this one thing, and the problem is that stresses people up because they don’t know what that one thing might be, and then they think, “Oh, maybe I shouldn’t do anything at all because I’m not very self-aware, or I don’t know myself. I need to introspect and discover who I really am.”

But that doesn’t really help either because the only thing that really gets us going is to get exposed to possibilities that are real, and to get into contact with people who do those things, who can help us investigate them further and learn more about them.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Herminia Ibarra
And serendipity happens, too. I’ll tell you another quick story. This is someone who was in the financial world, and had always dreamed of doing something in interior design, something more artsy, and it just wasn’t going to happen because the financials didn’t work out. And so, she got to stay doing what she was doing.

Kind of out the blue, one of her clients, who had really appreciated her financial savvy, said, “As you know, I have this film company, and I’d really like you to be my chief financial officer and COO. I’d like you to run this.” She’d never thought, “I’d like to be in film.” She’d never thought, “I’d like to run a company.” But this was a relationship that worked very well for her, it was a way of doing something more creative, she knew the person. She took the leap, did it, and has really found it to be a fantastic move for her.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Beautiful.

Herminia Ibarra
How could you extract that out of your head? Never.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. So, lay it on us then, you’ve got some concepts associated with the possible selves and doing some identity experiments to explore the possible selves. Can you define or unpack these terms for us?

Herminia Ibarra
Yes, of course. So, the conventional approach, which I call an implement is you start out with the right answer and then you follow the steps. The less conventional approach, which is what I have found tends to happen when people make career change, I call experiment and learn. And the way that unfolds is you start to envision what I call possible selves.

Possible selves are ideas about who you might become in the future. They could be anything. They could be a very clear idea you have. They could be what other people think you want to do. They could be your feared possible self who you don’t want to become. They could be very nascent, very vague and fuzzy possibilities, “I think I’d like to do something more creative,” for example. So, you start with that, with some hunches. And what I always recommend to people is to not be afraid to make the list long and divergent, kind of the opposite of the conventional wisdom.

The conventional wisdom is “Focus. Know what you want.” This is not. Brainstorm with yourself. What are they? And then start somewhere. Now, for some people, this is pretty organic, and that is they’re working their day job and they’ve started on a project, maybe they were helping a friend who had a startup, maybe they had a side hustle on Etsy, maybe they took a course. Somebody I know took a course in – what’s it called – gemology, having to do with stones and jewelry, and that kind of led her on a path.

So, for a lot of people, you have this side activity that you’re interested in and it leads you on a path towards where you realize this could be your next job and career. And once it’s developed enough, you leave and you take it on. And so, it’s a possible self that is nascent that’s been developing, “Oh, maybe this might be my next career,” “Oh, maybe this could be a good thing to do.”

For other people, they don’t have that. They don’t have that. They’re kind of stuck, “I know I don’t like what I’m doing,” or, “I’ve lost my job,” that happens more and more today, “What should I do instead?” Brainstorm a list of possibilities. Don’t be afraid to have things that are a little bit more conventional or a little bit less conventional.

My friend, the scuba diver who I told you about, he had a three-pronged list. One list was conventional jobs that he talked to headhunters about, kind of his line. Another one was kind more of artsy, folkloric kind of things, the scuba dive, the wine business, a BNB business. And a third was identifying entrepreneurs that he found interesting, and tried to see if he could get a role working with them to learn from them. So, three-pronged kind of approach.

But the idea is to generate a bunch of possibilities and then start exploring one. Maybe you take a course in that area. Maybe some people want to have at least as a side hustle, being on boards of directors so they’ll a course on being a non-executive director. Or, some people, a very popular thing, is to become a coach, an executive coach, a business coach. People will take a course, and they’ll take the course. If they’re still in their job, they take it on the side. If they’re not working, they take it and they practice it.

And that’s a possibility that they’re exploring. It may not be the thing that you move into, but it has the advantage of getting you going. If it’s not it, it makes you understand why not. If it’s promising and it allows you to explore more, it gets you in touch with other people who are also in the process of making changes, and that’s always helpful because you don’t want to be alone in your head, thinking, “I’m the only one who’s taking forever, who’s unsure about what to do.”

It creates a sense of kinship with other people who are going through a journey as well, and it creates a context in which you have to explain yourself all the time, which is also helpful because the more you have to explain yourself, the clearer you become about what you’re trying to do and why. So, any action, basically, is helpful. If you know, follow your nose. If you don’t, take any action and get started on a path.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Well, I’d love it if we could generate just a big list of experiments and approaches for getting a taste of things. And so, volunteering, taking a course, maybe going to events and meeting the people at the events. I guess there’s even more passive stuff in the earliest of steps, like, “Well, let’s listen to a podcast about artificial intelligence…” if that’s the thing you think you’re into, “…and let’s start having some conversations with people who are there.” Like, “Hey, I read your thing. I listened to your episode,” and sort of step-by-step we get a taste for what’s going on.

What are some of your other favorite experiments or approaches you found really yield a boatload of insight for effort that you put into it?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, you’ve got the basics of the list there – take a course, volunteer, start up a business on the side, do advisory, get on a board, get class, give a class, all those things, all of those things. And one side is what you do, the activity. The other side is the new networks that gets you into. And the two of those things together help you understand, “Do I want to take the next step or do I not?”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that and it’s much less intimidating in terms of all at once, one giant leap, yes or no, launch, don’t launch versus, “Huh, okay. That was cool. How about another step?” I suppose at some points there are big old milestones, like, “No, for real. Like, I got to decide if I’ve got to pursue a doctorate in order to do the science thingy that I think sounds cool, or I’m not.” So, I’m curious, are there any particular questions, either for the internal reflection or for your new network, that you think are supremely useful and insightful as you’re navigating your experiments?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, there’s basically two questions you’re asking yourself, “Is this an attractive option? Yes. No.” “Is this feasible in terms of my need to make a living in the world? Yes. No.” And you are kind of inching your way through those questions, “Is it attractive? Is it feasible?” And feasible is not just only in terms of the money. It’s also in terms of, “Will I be able to develop the skill set necessary to truly plant a foot in that world?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, the consultant in me is creating a two-by-two matrix in my mind’s eye. I can’t help myself. Let’s hear some examples of things that might be in each of those quadrants. And I guess it’ll be super individually specific, like, what’s attractive to one person is totally repulsive to another. But I guess in terms of not feasible, like, I could probably not be an Olympic gymnast now as a 40-year-old man who has not trained in that domain. But I guess I’m such a big dreamer, I think almost anything is possible.

So, maybe you could ground us. You be the dream-killer for a moment, what are some areas where you’ve had to gently encourage folks, like, “You know what, maybe back off or rethink that a little bit. That’s probably highly risky and not quite feasible in its current incarnation”?

Herminia Ibarra
Yeah, that doesn’t really happen. Nobody does to themselves, “At age 45, I want to be an astronaut or I want to be a rocket scientist.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, in a way, I’m a little sad.

Herminia Ibarra
Although, you do have people. You do have people. This is not somebody that I studied but I ran across, somebody told me a story recently of somebody, you know how they tell people, “What did you want to do when you were a kid?” and this person had always wanted to be an astronaut, and he ended up, I don’t know, either training astronauts or coaching astronauts, but kind of found his way into the aerospace industry via some things that he had done before and some things he was able to acquire as skills, and found himself delighted to be in that kind of atmosphere.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, what I love about that is you may have a desire to be an astronaut, and I guess the right answer is not to dismiss that, “That’s ridiculous. Let’s throw that away,” but rather to dig a little deeper, it’s like, “Well, what is it about being astronaut that seems cool?” It’s like, “I like the idea of being in a rocket going superfast.” Like, okay, maybe you can just start flying small planes as a hobby or something, and you can scratch that itch.”

Or, maybe it’s, “Space is so fascinating.” “Well, there’s many space-adjacent sorts of opportunities that you can go for.” Or, “I always admire the astronauts themselves, their stories and their heroism and their bravery.” It’s like, “Oh, well, then you could train astronauts and get close to them even if you’re not going out into outer space.” So, I think that’s pretty cool that those initial seeds can grow in some handy directions.

Herminia Ibarra
Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m curious on the networking side of things, do you have any pro tips on how you recommend reaching out, asking for help or guidance or input or conversations as you’re navigating these experiments?

Herminia Ibarra
So, the first is start right away. A lot of people don’t start because they say to themselves, “I don’t know what I want. I’m going to sound confused so I’m going to kind of blow a good contact and I’m not going to make a good impression.” However, if you don’t start, you’re not going to figure it out. And so, by this point, everybody is familiar with the informational interview and kind of the exploratory coffee.

Maybe reach out to people who are not the CEO of the company you’d like to work for until you’ve had a little bit of practice. But the most important thing is to start right away and to contact a lot of people. Most people don’t realize how many conversations it takes, how many coffees, how many times reaching out on LinkedIn.

Just recently, I did a webinar online for people who are interested in career change, and we asked them, we did a survey ahead of time, and we asked them, “How confident are you in your ability to make this change, to make a change successfully?” And we also asked them about their networks, we asked them how many conversations they’ve had already about career change, and it varied wildly from hundreds of them, or hundred something, to very few. And there was a very strong correlation.

The more people you talk to, the more confident you felt about the possibility because, as you talk to people, first of all, you find out everybody has got a story about career change. Lots of people do. It’s very reassuring to hear that other people with a similar background as you ended up doing something very different, and successfully so, and happily so. And they’ll encourage you, and you’ll get more ideas about what to do, let alone than actually find leads and referrals for specific positions.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Herminia Ibarra
So, start, reach out, be honest. At first, you might be saying, “I’m exploring the possibility of a change. I’m looking into different options. I’m trying to kind of brainstorm some possibilities.” Afterwards, you might say, “I’m really interested in this sector and I’m trying to figure out which way to position myself in or which way to go in it.” After that, “I’m trying to get a foot in this door.” It’s a progression.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. I like those questions. Any particularly magical turns of phrases that you’re fond of?

Herminia Ibarra
No, there’s no magic. Yeah, the magic is, “I’d like your help. I’d like your input. I’d like to hear your story.” It’s very simple things.

Pete Mockaitis
I suppose what I found, and what I really like about your answer, “No, there’s no magic,” is that I have witnessed before, I think there’s one guy in particular, he reached out to me, wants some career advice, and he was a total stranger. I think we were in the same LinkedIn Group, so about the weakest of connections that there can exists, so I had no idea who this person was but, what the heck, I chat with them.

And then, I asked him out of curiosity, “Hey, so you just kind of found me out of the blue and in the cold on LinkedIn, like have you been reaching out to other people? And how often do people say yes?” And, to my delight, he had a very detailed notebook of everybody he reached out to, and the results of those reach-outs, and I believe the number was something like 28% of total strangers were willing to have a chat with him. And I thought that was cool.

And his message wasn’t magical. It was short. It was direct. It was clear. He made it easy for me, it’s like, “Hey, I’d love to come get coffee with you wherever it’s convenient, perhaps A, B, C times to hear more about this and that.” And I was like, “Okay, sure.” And I thought that was pretty encouraging.

Herminia Ibarra
That’s it. That’s it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. All right. Well, Herminia, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, on that note about the weakest of ties, we know that those are the ones that are the most helpful, in fact, because friends and family and close colleagues, they have the same information you do. And when it comes to career change, they’re more apt to worry that you’re going to do something foolish. Whereas, perfect strangers might think that your kookiest plans are actually wonderful.

And LinkedIn studied this directly because there’s this famous theory about the strength of weak ties, how we tend to get our next job through people we don’t know so well or don’t see that often. And there was an experiment with LinkedIn in which they manipulated what people you were fed as people you might know, and in some cases, they gave you closer connections, and in another case, more distant. And the more distance were indeed the ones that were the most productive for figuring out a next job.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s good. Well, now could you share with us a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, a favorite study is the original strength of weak ties research in which researchers studied how people found jobs and what were the contacts that led them to leads that became their next jobs. And it was all personal contacts by and large. This was before LinkedIn, which is not quite can be personal but also a bit institutionalized. But it was mostly personal contacts that led people to their next job, but the surprising thing was that it was not close colleagues. It was distant acquaintances.

And the reason was not people always think, “It’s because your close colleagues know your fatal flaws.” That’s not it. The reason was that they have the same information you do because they circulate in the same circles and the same waters. Whereas, more distant acquaintances are more likely to be working somewhere else and to be seeing different things, and, therefore, are more likely to suggest something novel to you.

But it’s a wonderful study because it’s counterintuitive, and I see this over and over again. People get started, trying to make a career change, and they turn to friends and family because it’s more reassuring, because they don’t want everybody to know, but it is really these weak ties, these more distant acquaintances that really make a difference. People we used to work with, for example, are huge in terms of generating leads for next possible things to do.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And could you share a favorite book?

Herminia Ibarra
A favorite book. I’m just looking at my bookshelf. I’ve always loved the old classic, William Bridges’ Transitions, about beginnings. No, he goes, endings, middles, and beginnings about the phases of transition and why it’s so difficult. That’s a favorite.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool, something you use that helps you be awesome at your job?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, now I use ChatGPT for everything, not to write anything for me but for some basic research and ideas.

Pete Mockaitis

Okay. Well, now I’ve been playing with it myself. Tell me, what are some of your favorite use cases where you think this thing really shines?

Herminia Ibarra

Well, I had, for example, a bunch of open-ended answers to a survey. It was kind of a long number. And I asked it to code them for me into categories, and then do counts of different categories. So, that’s kind of like a research assistant. It’s very good at outlining things. I’d never taken care of my Wikipedia entry. If somebody had written it, it was not accurate. And so, I asked it to write it for me, and it outlined it very well. It did hallucinate articles I had never written but that’s okay. I knew which ones to put in but it was perfect.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s flattering. The robot assumed that you must’ve written that because of your notoriety and wit and insight. So, with the coding of results, that’s intriguing. Did you just straight up drag and drop a spreadsheet file into it? Or, how did that work in terms of tactical execution?

Herminia Ibarra
When I first did it, yeah, I just entered all the…I don’t remember now if it was in the spreadsheet. Then my research assistant took over, and she did use it with Excel, but I think I just dropped everything in. And it got a little bit overwhelmed, and so we had to work it in some batches but, yeah, it did a pretty good job. And then we kind of negotiated on the categories a bit. You have to work with it but it did a great job.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. And could you share a favorite habit, something you do that supports you in being awesome at your job?

Herminia Ibarra
No, this is actually a real thing. My habit is to work from home as long as possible in the morning, which is when my brain is at its best. And so, I try to do any kind of writing or course development that I need to get done at that time, and then go into the office later, or go into the other things later.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular you share that really seems to connect and resonate with people and they quote it back to you often?

Herminia Ibarra

It’s this idea that we tend to know what we don’t want but we don’t know what we want instead, but the only way that we figure it out is by going out and exploring as opposed to waiting until we figure it out in our head. That resonates with people. The other thing that resonates a lot is that when people read Working Identity, one of the things they always come back to me on is, “Oh, my gosh, I’m not the only one. It gave me relief I’m not the only one that was so confused or nonlinear.”

And the nugget is that no matter how clear you are in your head about what you want next, career transitions always take longer and are messier than anyone ever imagined, and that’s just part of the process.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Herminia Ibarra
HerminiaIbarra.com, Herminia Ibarra at LinkedIn, and Herminia Ibarra at X.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Herminia Ibarra
Well, the funny thing is that my subject is not so much about being awesome at your job but being awesome at extricating yourself from that job. But I guess what I would say is if it’s not been awesome for some time, it is really a good moment to start dabbling on the side with other ideas and possibilities.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Herminia, thank you. This has been a lot of fun.

Herminia Ibarra
Thanks so much, Pete. I really enjoyed it.