1104: Exploring the Timeless Principles of Influence through a Christian Lens with Brian Ahearn

Pete Mockaitis
Brian, welcome back!

Brian Ahearn
It’s great to be back, Pete. Nice to see you.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s good to see you, and you shared earlier that you are now a grandpa.

Brian Ahearn
Yes, it’s so much better than people tell you. They tell you all these great things. The way I would equate it is people can tell you about falling in love. But once you fall in love, it’s so much better than anybody can describe, and grandparenting is the same way.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, I’ve decided to chat about your latest book, Influenced from Above: Where Faith and Influence Meet. Tell us, what’s the story here?

Brian Ahearn
Well, the story is a continuation of the book I wrote called The Influencer: Secrets to Success and Happiness. And it follows that main character, John Andrews, and he’s about 18 months into his retirement and he’s feeling a little empty. He’s had a great life. He’s done really well in business but he’s feeling a little bored, like, “There has to be more to life than just enjoying the fruits of my labor.”

And he, ultimately, gets involved with his church in a community center building project. And he has to begin to straddle the line of not only what helped him succeed in business, but also dealing with a faith-based community. And through his studies and interactions, he begins to see this connection between Cialdini’s principles of influence and biblical tenets.

And so, the story fleshes that out with a lot of different characters and some twists and turns and things like that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, intriguing. So biblical tenets, well, first of all, let’s address that right up front. For folks who aren’t so much into Christianity, or any faith tradition, do you see value in this book for them as well?

Brian Ahearn
Yes, because so many of the things that are talked about are timeless in terms of, they’ve been around as long as humanity. One example we know about reciprocity, if I do a good turn for you, you feel a sense of obligation to want to do something for me. That’s been around as long as human beings have been around.

Jesus said, “It’s better to give than receive,” and, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you,” so he was really talking about reciprocity. So, I think that the storyline will help people really see, whether they want to talk about biblical connections or, more generally, spiritual connections, I think that they will see that so many of the things that Cialdini and other social scientists have proven, via research and experiments, that these things have been talked about for thousands of years by very wise people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, then. So, these principles of influence are fantastic, and we’ve chatted about them a couple of times in the show, as well as we had Bob Ciadini himself also speaking to them. So, could you unpack a little bit about some of the extra ancient perspectives on each of them?

Brian Ahearn
To start with, as we were discussing before we jumped on air, what spurred this book on was my daughter’s question. She had seen me present here in Columbus, Ohio many, many years ago. And we had lunch and we had a great discussion about what I had shared. And then she asked this question, she said, “Dad, what I want to know is where’s God in all this? Where does he fit into the psychology that you are teaching people?”

And it was just an off-the-cuff conversation, and that was the genesis for the idea of the book. But one of the things I remember telling her, I said, “Abigail, in business, we may not talk about love. But if we employ this principle of liking the right way, we get pretty close to it. When we’re not looking to get people to like us, just so we can get them to say yes and move our agenda forward, when we instead focus on coming to like the people that we’re with, that’s what changes everything.”

Because, you know, Pete, the more that you see that, “Hey, this guy, Brian, he really does seem to care about me,” that’s what opens you up to whatever I might ask. But, at the same time, because I’m getting to know and like you, I do want what’s best for you. And so, we’ve really gone from transactional to relational in terms of our interaction. And, to me, that’s getting pretty close to love.

Love is about doing what is best for others, even at a sacrifice to yourself. And so, we can get pretty close if we choose to engage this principle of liking the right way. And then it transforms our giving, right? So, when we talk about reciprocity and I do a good turn for you and you feel like you should do something for me, but I’m not just doing something to get you to do something in return.

Because I’ve come to know and like you, now I really want what’s best for Pete. And so, therefore, I’m looking for ways to genuinely help you. And even if it’s not the right thing, there’s grace coming from you because you know that I like you and care for you and that I’m really trying to help you. I just may not understand exactly the best way to do it in that moment, but that’s the kind of thing that transforms the relationship.

And so, our conversation just started going down the line, talking about these different principles and why coming to know and like somebody, in other words, getting close to that love, really can begin to transform how we interact, how we do business, and how we form relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, I’d like to go into some depth with each of the six principles there. So, we’ve touched a bit about reciprocity.

Brian Ahearn
We could talk about unity.

Pete Mockaitis
Unity?

Brian Ahearn
Yeah, unity. Unity is one of the relationship building principles. And so, it goes deeper even than the principle of liking.

So, when we know that there’s unity there, in other words, when we have a shared identity or a deep bond, that transcends liking. And the interesting thing about unity is we will do things for people that we’re unitized with, that we might not even do for some of our closest friends. I mean, you take, for example, if somebody needs a kidney, we’re probably going to help a family member first and foremost because we’re genetically wired to help our species go on.

And that is very self-sacrificing to do something like give a kidney to somebody else. You’re not looking for anything in return. But here’s the neat thing about unity is, when I’m helping you, Pete, and we have unity, it’s almost as if I’m helping myself. I mean, when I do things for my grandson, it does wonders for me, right? He is my flesh and blood relative and I will do anything for him. I will make any sacrifices for him.

And that’s the principle of unity, which I think really gets us even closer to love. Because, again, I said earlier, love is self-sacrificial. And another interesting thing about unity is we don’t always even have to like the person. But if we feel that deep sense of shared identity or bond, we are much more likely to do something to try to help that individual.

So now we’ve really gone deep in the relationship aspect, hopefully, starting with liking, but maybe discovering unity. And I think that transforms the relationships that we have on a personal and professional level.

Pete Mockaitis
Can we talk about some of the ways that unity comes about?

Brian Ahearn
Unity, first and foremost, by genetics, our flesh and blood, our family, we are naturally unitized with them. Another great example from my lifetime was my father who served in the Marines.

And one thing he said was, “I still value Marine friendships above all others, even if they weren’t from Vietnam. There’s an invisible bond that joins us forever. If a Marine has a need, others will step in and help. It must be the result of having gone through such terrible times together.”

So, my dad didn’t really know much about the principles that I teach, but he recognized there was this invisible bond, and that word bond is really significant to the point where if a Marine had a need, others step in. It doesn’t matter how well you know them. It doesn’t even matter if you like them, “They are one of us and, therefore, we will do whatever we have to for that individual.”

So, again, from my life that’s the best example that I’ve seen of the principle of unity outside of the family relationship.

Pete Mockaitis
And what’s interesting about that notion is that, in some sort of groups, some folks will experience it and others will not. Like, I’m thinking in terms of, if it’s a faith community, if it’s being an alumnus, alumna, from a university, it’s interesting. Like, sometimes we feel it and other times we don’t. What are the core drivers behind that?

Brian Ahearn
Well, I think the proximity and the closer that you are to people. So, your example of like a university, certain universities have great reputation. They do a really good job of making people who go to those universities feel something special and significant.

Certainly, if you and I went to the same university and graduated in the same class, we would probably feel a deeper sense of unity than if I had gone to school with somebody who graduated 10 years before or 10 years after. We’ll still have it. It may not be as significant because you and I would have gone through the same things at the same time, maybe had the same teachers, remembered the same things that were happening on campus that create an emotional bond for us.

So, yes, there will be times whether it’s organizations or faith-based communities where you’ll have a unity but you can have it even stronger.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. And then how do you think about the principles of spirituality within that?

Brian Ahearn
Well, there’s a verse in the Bible where it says that there’s neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female. We are all one in Christ Jesus. So that’s what Christ was pointing his disciples toward, that there was a sense of unity, especially before his crucifixion. He was praying that they would be one as he is one with the Father.

And so, that’s really how faith, I think, comes in. Again, we’re seeing this, thousands of years before anybody was talking about a principle called unity. But people who were extremely wise and connected understood that that was extremely significant. If those disciples were unitized, they were much more likely to be there and support one another in what became for, I think, virtually all of them, except for the Apostle John. It led to their own self-sacrificial deaths.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, absolutely. All right. Now let’s hear some ancient depth and goodness associated with the principles of commitment and consistency.

Brian Ahearn
Well, with commitment, the Bible talks about, “Let your yes be yes and your no be no,” and don’t make vows that you cannot repay. So, again, to a personal consistency in that principle says that we feel an internal psychological pressure, but also external social pressure to be consistent in what we say and what we do.

So, first and foremost, if we are consistent, we generally feel better about ourselves, which is a huge driver. Nobody likes to feel bad about themselves. So, we work very hard to keep our word. But, nonetheless, we need to be taught that. From childhood we are taught about don’t lie and do what you say. And so, we begin to get that sense of how important it is to do what we said we would do.

Pete Mockaitis
And now, as you’re dropping some verses here, I’m forming some connections here. I’m thinking about, “The measure with which you measure will be measured out unto you.” So, we’ve got some sort of honesty, commitment, consistency, as well as reciprocity, it’s like, “Well, if you’re cheating others with bogus measurements, then, likewise, you might expect them to do so,” as well as in the “Our Father” prayer, “Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us,” in similar format.

Brian Ahearn
Yeah, so in that case, we have been given something, and that is forgiveness. Now, God doesn’t need us to reciprocate that back toward him, but he encourages us to, then, freely give that to others because it was freely given to us. So, it is engaging reciprocity, but it’s more in the form of a pay-it-forward, “I’ve done this for you. I hope you’ll do this for others who are in need of this.”

And I think when we really start to come to the recognition that we do need forgiveness, then it becomes a lot easier to realize, “Well, other people are like me, and this has benefited me tremendously, this burden kind of taken off my shoulders. I should try to do the same and encourage others by being that kind of forgiving individual.”

And then, again, I am mirroring what Christ was teaching his disciples, “If you don’t forgive, how do you expect your heavenly father to forgive you if you won’t forgive those who’ve trespassed against you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, and now perhaps a bigger question is, I think that it’s quite possible for folks to twist, to abuse the word in terms of thinking, “Oh, okay, so Brian says it’s all good according to God himself, to unload, rock and roll, with wild abandon, these influence principles.” What do you think are some of the key checks in terms of being genuinely ethical, moral, loving with the use of these things?

Brian Ahearn
I have an interesting quote in the beginning of the book, where I talk about that I don’t see faith and science as in conflict. I get excited when I see that science confirms what faith has talked about for thousands of years. And the example that I shared was from a book called Sway by Ori and Rom Brafman.

And they were talking about brain imaging studies that showed there were two distinct centers in our brain. One lights up, or is engaged, when we are doing things for an altruistic reason. The other is engaged when we are doing things for a reward. But never do the two things, or the two parts of that brain, engage at the same time.

In other words, you’re either doing it for an altruistic reason or you’re doing it for a reward. And that goes back to something that Jesus said too. He said, “You can’t serve God and mammon,” or money. “You will either love one or love the other. You can’t serve two masters.”

And so, when I read that study, I just thought, “Wow, this is so interesting that we were being encouraged.” And I know people might think, “Well, you know, I can do things to get a little reward. I’m okay with that.” It’s really about what you’re starting with, “Am I trying to truly benefit or help this individual regardless of what may come back to me or what it might cost me?” That’s really probably very close to the altruistic.

But if I’m doing something, like I could be giving a lot of money to a charity, wonderful for the charity, but am I doing it because I so believe in that or I’m doing it for a tax break? And we know a lot of people do things because they want the tax break. Well, you’ve just received your reward.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Or the influence or the cache or the praise, your name on something.

Brian Ahearn
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s intriguing. And then there’s also this notion, I’ve heard similarly with these brain studies, that under certain circumstances, the parts of our brain light up associated with sort of the using of tools and then people can sort of fall into that category, it’s like, “Oh, you are a means to my end.” And then that’s not such a great spot to be in.

Brian Ahearn
Yes, people aren’t tools. I look at them and I say, “They’re children of God, created in the image of God. And so, therefore, I should treat them as such.” And let me be clear about this, too. I am in no way perfect or even great at this. I mean, it is a process that you’re always going through. And sometimes you realize you could have done something differently with somebody.

I think the key to that is to just confess it, like, “Wow, I was really crappy there.” But at least confessing it, you may make a better choice the next time. But in terms of, I think if we engage, going back to liking and/or unity, if we engage it the right way, it starts to shift that individual as a means to an end, “Because I want to get the sale,” or whatever the case may be.

And I will give you an example that, many years ago, I have a client, they’ve been an awesome client, and as I was working with them, the person who’s the VP of sales, said, “Hey, I’m not sure there’s going to be any opportunity the way the economy is.” And I told him, I said, “That’s okay.” I said, “I really like you and I want to make sure we stay in touch.”

And so, we continued to do that. And after our daughter got married three and a half years ago, I sent an email, and said, “Hey, Abigail got married. It was one of the best days of my life so far,” and had a couple pictures. Well, he came back and said, “That is great.” He said, “I just got engaged. Would you come to Germany for our wedding?” I’m like, “Heck, yes. That would be incredible.”

So, Jane and I made our first trip to Central Europe and had a wonderful time. The wedding was incredible. Everything about it was great. So, our friendship got deeper at that point. And there were things that went on during the wedding, too, that I felt like connected us even more deeply.

Later, as we maintained our friendship and I did the natural, “Hey, you guys thinking about kids?” And then he said, “Yeah, but we’re going to have to try in vitro for certain reasons.” And I said, “You know what? Our daughter was born through in vitro.” I mean, now we are unitized because not very many people have gone through that process, but I was able to share with him the highs and lows and the success and the failures, and just be a friend to him.

By the grace of God, they’re pregnant. They’re going to have a little girl in December. But he and I, whether or not I ever do business with his company again, is almost irrelevant because of the connection and the friendship I have. But I also understand this, Pete, that if they have a need, they’ll probably turn to me because he knows I genuinely care about him as a person and I really care about the success of their organization as I’ve gotten to know about it and the individuals there.

So those are the kind of things, I think, that transform business and relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, let’s hear some ancient perspective on authority.

Brian Ahearn
A great one with authority was they said Jesus didn’t speak like the scribes and the Pharisees. He spoke as one with authority. And how often we fall prey to the belief that we have to have positional authority. I mean, it helps if you have the corner office, for sure. But what means a lot more, what we stress when we talk about being an authority is being a trusted expert. Because your expertise and your trust can transcend any role that you have.

And, obviously, that’s what Christ had. He had the trust of the people and he had the expertise with the authority, and he proved that by not only what he was saying, but then he backed it up by doing, right? “Anybody can say, you know, go in peace and be healed. Okay, you don’t think I have the authority to do that? Let me show you I do. Get up and walk.” And the paralytic got up and walked.

So, he is the example. And then the disciples became examples of that too, as many of them did miraculous things in His name.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And I’m thinking about, when you think about authority and trust, there are many ways that trust is subtly built and eroded, in terms of your interactions and just sort of the life you live and what people can see from that.

Especially, I think when it costs us something. I think there’s a great degree of moral authority that shows up when people say and do things for a higher good at their own cost or expense. And maybe because it seems somewhat rare, that I just think, “Okay, that person is awesome.”

Like, they have stature in my eyes, they have authority, and there’s sort of a halo effect that goes on, in terms of, I naturally believe the things they are telling me are true and can be relied upon because I have witnessed virtue from this person.

Brian Ahearn
Aristotle, I’ve often used this quote, he said, “Character may almost be called the most effective means of persuasion.” If we lose reputation because we’ve broken trust, it can destroy, I mean, you and I have lived long enough that we’ve seen this, it can destroy a lifetime of work. And so, therefore, we have to be very careful.

We don’t want to act like we’re walking on eggshells, but we have to be very careful about always doing right by people. And I always tell the people that I work with, “It’s not enough to tell the truth. We don’t hide the truth either.”

Because, Pete, if you knew that I was holding something back that was material to your decision-making, and then you made a decision and you would have made a different decision if you’d known that information, you will not be looking at me as a trustworthy person. You’ll be saying, “Brian, why didn’t you bring up this point?”

And for me to say, “Well, Pete, you didn’t ask,” is indefensible if I know that that would materially impact your decision. So, we tell the truth and we never hide the truth. And I think if we have that as a general way that we go through life, we are getting much closer to being that person of integrity that people will willingly trust.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now let’s talk about some social proof.

Brian Ahearn
With social proof, it’s interesting that a lot of the things that are talked about in the Bible are kind of steering you away from social proof because, in following God, you are swimming upstream.

And we know that we can be influenced by other people, what many others are doing or what similar others are doing. And so, a lot of the time, we’re having to actually warn people against that. You know, it says that, “The way to destruction is broad and many are those who find it, but the way to life is narrow, and few are those that find it.”

So, that one’s that we have to be very sensitive to how we use it. And even in today’s day and age, quite often, people use social proof incorrectly. Example, if somebody said, if they were a teacher at a university, and they were to say to students, “You know, I just read a report that says 65% of students will cheat by the time they graduate. If I catch any of you cheating, I’ll have you down in the Dean’s office and get you expelled.”

But what I’ve just done there is I planted a seed, “Two out of every three students cheat at some point in their academic career?” And then, all of a sudden, somebody is stressed. They’ve got a lot of things going on, and, “Well, I’ll just do it this one time.” But I have, inadvertently, set the stage to make it easier for them cognitively to make that decision.

So, it’s a very interesting principle. We have to always utilize it to guide people in a direction that we want them to go. So, if two-thirds of students were cheating, but that same report said, “Cheating is on the decline,” I’m going to talk about the fact that cheating is on the decline, “You know, every year 10% fewer students are cheating,” or something like that, to try to get people thinking like, “Oh, this isn’t something I should try. This isn’t something I might get away with.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, social proof is just in us. We tend to follow the crowd. And so that’s a good caution there, is to highlight that. And then, I guess, in a way, there’s also a little bit of a streak in maybe some personalities that they want to be elite, rare, special, distinguished. And so, I think there may be some personality type. Or, what would you want to call it?

Brian Ahearn
Contrarian?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. For that, a contrarian streak to them, were like, “Oh, well, then.” I think that’s people who like conspiracy theories, for example. I think that’s part of the appeal for them, it’s like, “Ooh, everyone is, the vast majority of people have the completely wrong idea, but I, and a few others, we really know what’s up here.” Although, I guess, in a way, that’s unity over there.

Brian Ahearn
Well, they can be unitized with that small group who believes as they believe, but they are also, in a sense, tapping into scarcity, “Everybody’s doing this, but this is the thing over here.” And, of course, that intrigues us. We are also naturally drawn to something that’s unique and different, rare, maybe not easily available. And so, it just piques our interest and, all of a sudden, you can take a step in that direction.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, any other thoughts on scarcity?

Brian Ahearn
With scarcity, that’s replete throughout the Bible too. We’re told to, as long as it is day to work, we don’t know when night is coming. The Apostle Paul talked about the return of Christ, “Nobody knows.” Even Jesus said, “Nobody knows the day or the hour except the Father.” That wasn’t to scare people, but it was to get them to think, “You know what, I don’t want this, whatever, to happen tomorrow and regret that I didn’t take action today.”

And so, it really, I think it’s there to incent us to always be looking to do the right thing, to live godly lives, to do right by others, to love them and things, because tomorrow is not guaranteed for anybody. And one of the worst things that we can do is be on the deathbed and think about all the stuff we didn’t do that we wish we had. So, I think it’s a good way to look at life.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. Well, Brian, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention here?

Brian Ahearn
I think if people read the book, they’re going to start to see more deeply these connections, as John Andrews learns about these and has to deal with a faith-based community. It’s motivated differently than a secular community. And he’s dealing with trying to get donations and volunteers. He’s dealing with a city zoning board and the city council and having to also go there.

But in no case does he ever abandon one or the other. He’s always looking to say, “Okay, now that I understand that there seems to be this underpinning of these biblical tenets for these principles that have been so instrumental in my success in my career, how do I marry these two to be a more effective individual, whether I’m dealing with the secular or a faith-based community?”

Because in either case, we still, in large part, our success and happiness rests on getting people to say yes to us. But I hope people will see that we can go to a deeper level, a level that does right by people and allows us to feel really good about ourselves in the midst of that as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite book?

Brian Ahearn
Robert Cialdini’s book, Influence. And when Bob read the first draft of the book, he loved it. He said, “It’s totally unique.” He said, “I have never read anything that has tried to connect faith-based tenets to my principles.” And that was a huge compliment for me.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Brian Ahearn
A favorite habit would certainly be working out. Every day, I’m up for 4:00-4:30 and go for a long walk, and then I come in and I work out for about 45 minutes and spend time stretching and try to get all that done by 6:00-6:15. So every day starts with that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Brian Ahearn
First would be LinkedIn. And so, if anybody is finding this interesting, if they start following me or if they reach out to connect, they’re going to see something every day to help them learn a little bit more about how influence can help them in terms of their professional success and personal happiness.

The other would be my website, which is InfluencePeople.biz. There’s just a tremendous amount of information for people to really whet their appetite.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Brian Ahearn
Well, I’ll say two things. One is, this isn’t really so much of a challenge, but I do want to make people know that if they order the book, which comes out on October 21st, if they send an email to BookLaunch@InfluencePeople.biz, and they tell me the name of the second chapter, I will send them a free e-version of the book, The Influencer, so the prequel to this book. They’ll get that for free.

As far as what I want them to take away from this, I would hope that it gets people thinking more about these principles beyond just, “How can I get what I want?” I mean, that’s very important. It’s very important to succeed at your job and all the benefits that that can do for, like, college education, vacations, all those things. They’re wonderful. But there’s something that’s more important. And I hope that, having listened to this conversation, they might start thinking more deeply about that.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Brian, thank you.

Brian Ahearn
You’re welcome. It’s always a pleasure to talk with you, Pete.