Influence Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Mike, welcome!

Mike Litton
Thanks, bud. Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, it is. I am excited to be chatting questions, something I know you’re deeply passionate about. Could you maybe kick us off with a story of a time, a question, was, oh, so transformational?

Mike Litton
Well, it’s actually a series of questions and it’s one of my favorite stories. I just recently was hired by Southwestern College, a local college here, as an adjunct professor or adjunct instructor for real estate. And 20 some years ago, I was in National City at their adult education center. I was teaching a class on how to succeed in real estate.

There were 45 people in the room. And there was a young man in the corner with his hat on sideways, and every time I said something, he said something to his neighbor, and I got all of that I could stand, because I’m a very patient person, it took less than five minutes. And I went back there and stood over him with my arms folded, just like his were, and I said, “So, I get the impression you don’t think I know what I’m talking about.” He said, “I think you’re full of…” fill in the blank, right? It wasn’t a nice thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Poo-poo.

Mike Litton
Right. Exactly. And I said, “How about if I give you an example right here, live?” “Oh, I’d love to see this.” And so, I walked up front and I picked out the hottest girl in the room. And I walked up to her and I stuck my hand out, and I said, “Hi, I’m Mike.” And she said, “Hi, I’m Missy.”

And I said, “Missy, have we ever met before?”

She said, “No.”

I said, “Can I ask you a question?”

She said, “Sure.”

I said, “Where were you born?”

She said, “Chula Vista.”

I said, “Great. Did you grow up in Chula Vista?”

She said, “Yeah.”

I said, “What was your favorite thing about growing up in Chula Vista?”

She said, “The beach.”

I said, “Great. What was your favorite thing about the beach?”

She said, “The ocean.”

I said, “What was your favorite thing about the ocean?”

She said, “Swimming in the ocean.”

I said, “Why is that?”

And she said, “Because I never feel as free as I do when I’m swimming in the ocean.”

And so, I asked her, I said, “Missy, we’ve never met before. You and I have known each other now less than a minute. Do you feel closer to me than you did less than a minute ago?”

She goes, “Closer? I’m ready to marry you.”

Okay? Now this was this kid in the corner, we never heard another thing from him. He hung on every word after that. But here’s the thing. All I did was ask her questions about her, and then I asked her questions about the answer she gave me, right?

And so, what we’re not doing nowadays is we’re not staying curious about the people around us, the people we’re on the phone with, the people we’re working with, that kind of thing. And so, my big thing, I was just at Stanford a couple of weeks ago, giving a toast to a public speaking class up there. And I was the guest of their instructor.

And I, basically, told them, they gave me two minutes and you cannot go over it. It’s an absolute sin if you go over two minutes. So, I got up and I said, “Listen, it takes me 30 minutes to introduce myself. So, very quickly, everywhere I go, I try to add value. So, let me give you two items of value. Number one, if you ever have stage fright as a speaker, love the audience more than you love yourself, and your stage fright will go away.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Mike Litton
“If you care more about them getting the message and you’re teaching them than you do about how you look doing it, you’re going to be fine. The stage fright will go away. Next, I’m going to suggest to you that you do what I suggested both of my kids do, who are now 25 and 27. And what it was, was take out a word processor and the largest font you can, on top, type out, blank document, type out, ‘Stay in curiosity.’”

“At the bottom, ‘Stay out of judgment.’ Okay. Print it up and post it on a wall somewhere where you see it every day when you’re working, right in front of where you’re working. So, when you’re on the phone and you’re working, you remember to stay curious about the people that you’re on the phone with, about the world around you, about everything that’s going on. If you do that, your life will be so rich, you won’t recognize it.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Mike, that’s beautiful, right off the bat. And what’s so fun there is that series of questions, it’s not complicated, it doesn’t require much memorization, but we’ve managed to go from basic facts – fact, “I was born in this location,” – down into something that is deeply meaningful to her very quickly.

And, in so doing, yes, you naturally have good vibes towards the person because now you are summoning for them one of their most meaningful memories, and that feels good. And you were the one who made those good feelings happen in one flat.

Mike Litton
Yeah, she had a state change, what we call a state change. She looked like she was getting euphoric when she was talking about how free she feels swimming in the ocean. And that’s what this is about. It’s about being curious enough about the person that you’re in front of, and then it’s about asking them questions about what they just answered. They’re called piggyback questions.

And all you’re doing is you’re caring enough to ask. You’re caring, right? So, after the class, she came up to me, and she said, “You know, Mr. Litton, when I said I was ready to marry you, I was sort of half kidding.” And I said, “Okay.”

She said, “I’m 18 years old and I’ve stopped dating.”

And I said, “May ask you why?”

And she said, “Yeah.” She said, “The boys my age don’t ask me about me. They only talk about themselves.” And she said, “And I’m just sick of it.” She said, “You’re the only man that’s shown an interest in me other than my father.” That’s not good, okay?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that is a sad commentary in terms of the state of our society. And also, call me optimistic, a fantastic opportunity for all of us to show that interest, curiosity, and those questions, and great things happen.

Mike Litton
It happens everywhere you go. I went to a party the other day with my wife, and I don’t think she enjoys going to parties with me because I become the person that everybody wants to talk to. And the reason for it is I’m curious about them. I ask them about them, right?

And then another person comes along and we ask them about them. And then another person comes along and, all of sudden, we’ve got five or six, seven people standing there and we’ve got five, six, seven live stories. And what happens is that group of five or six, seven people, all of a sudden, realize that they have something in common with this other person, “Oh, my uncle went to Notre Dame.”

“Oh, my goodness. Did you know so and so?”

“Oh, so-and-so went to Illinois.”

“Oh, did you know so-and-so?”

“Oh, by the way, my brother was in AAU basketball. Did you have coach so-and-so?” You with me? And, all of a sudden, it’s, like, you cannot believe how connected we are until we start talking about people’s life stories. And that’s what we do with our podcast, is we have our guests share their life stories with us.

The cool thing about it for our listeners is they get an opportunity, and they’ve shared this with us. They get an opportunity to connect with our guests because of something that happened in their childhood or something happened in their life that they were able to connect with, and something similar, right?

We’re all looking to connect. We’re all looking to find something that we have in common. And if all we do is ask about the person we’re talking to on the phone, or ask about the person that we’re standing in front of, or ask about the person that we’re teaching, or ask about the seminar attendee that we’re talking to from the stage, we will engage them and we’ll engage all the people around them.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Well, so can I hear some of your favorite questions? Any do’s and don’ts as we navigate this path?

Mike Litton
So, some of my favorite questions are, “What’s your favorite thing about X?” “So, what was your favorite thing about growing up where you grew up?” And one of the things we always ask on our podcast was, “What was one of your favorite things?” or “Who is the most influential person to you growing up?”

And they open up. They become that kid that was being influenced, all of a sudden. And it opens up a Pandora’s box, in a good way, right, in terms of all the different stories and all the different things that come to mind and that they remember. And it’s a really, really cool way to go.

So, one of the things that I’ll do, I’m in real estate, when I go to list of property, I’ll walk in and I’ll ask the owner, I’ll just ask him, I’ll say, “What’s your favorite thing about your house? What’s your favorite thing about your neighborhood? What’s your favorite thing about the city you live in?” Right?

Because I want to know, legitimately, I’m the one that’s helping to sell their property. I want to know, when a buyer calls, “This is their favorite thing about the house. This is their favorite thing about their neighborhood. This is their favorite thing about their city.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Yeah, that’s so good because, otherwise, it’s quite likely it could blow right past you. Like, if you were to ask me, I would say, we’ve got these giant screened, cedar sliding doors on the back patio, which I’ve never really seen before. It’s kind of novel.

And it’s just so fun in the patio, you could have it open, you can have it closed. And when I close, I always like to just give a nice, deep smell of that cedar on both sides of the door at the same time. It’s my weird little ritual. But it gets me in a groove of savoring the little things, like the outdoor view and the feeling of, “Oh, I could enjoy sun and also be shaded in a patio at the same time and the smell.”

Mike Litton
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, that is such a cool little thing that you could convey to a potential buyer, it’s like, “Oh, hey, get a load of this. The cedar, you can still smell it.” And that’s just engaging another sense, and, hey, who knows, that might make the difference in terms of nudging them over the edge, like, “Yeah, let’s make an offer on this one.”

Mike Litton
Yeah. Well, the thing that seems to sell houses is the neighborhood. And so, they’ll tell you about their favorite neighbor, two doors down, that does a barbecue every summer, and they always invite the neighbors over, and yada, yada, yada. You with me?

And so, the thing that sells it is the relatability and how friendly everybody is in the neighborhood and all that kind of thing, and they watch out for each other. There are features in the house that’ll help sell the house, but, notoriously, the thing that they grab onto is the neighborhood.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s powerful. Okay. What are some other favorites?

Mike Litton
Well, one of the things that I love to do is I love to ask people what it is that they do for a living, and then why. In other words, “How is it that you became a pilot?” “How is it that you became a doctor?” “How is it that you became a nurse?” whatever it is they do. And, usually, there’s a great story behind it. They had a dad that was a surgeon. They had an uncle that was their favorite, that was a nurse.

And we’ll talk about kind of what their favorite thing is about that particular relative or that particular person that had that impact on them. And it’s really a lot of fun to just get to know people, right? Like, “Where are you from? Where were you born?” Especially, if they have an accent, right, it’s like, “Wow, what state is that accent from?” you know, right?

And, all of a sudden, it’s a conversation that you’re having where they’re now teleporting themselves back to when they were growing up and back to where it is that they came from and what their favorite food is and all those things, all those wonderful memories.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s super. Well, could you also share with us what are some not-so great questions, like, “Yeah, I’ve tried them out and they don’t really go anywhere or do much”?

Mike Litton
One of the things that I don’t ever do is I don’t ever ask people why they chose something, “So, why did you choose to live here?” “Why did you choose to use that particular service provider?” “Why did you choose to do this?” Right?

The reason for it is why tends to get them on the defensive. They tend to feel like that they need to defend whatever decision it was that they made, okay? So, why is something that I would avoid. Now, if you really want to connect with somebody on a deeper level, and you’ve done your prep work to an extent where you’ve asked them about them long enough, you can go to the why question, but you have to get to a place to where you’ve earned it, right?

You have to get to a place of trust. And then it’s like, “You know, I’m just curious, given the fact that you do this, I’m just fascinated by why you would choose to do that.” Now that is a different conversation. That’s less accusatory. That’s more curiosity involved. And people love it. Absolutely love it, Pete. When you’re curious about them, they love it.

And as much as parents and grandparents will tell you that they’re their grandparents and their kids are their favorite subject, it’s actually them. They’re actually their favorite subject. They just won’t tell you because that’s not the politically correct thing to do, right? But they’re literally dying to tell you their story. You just have to care enough to ask.

Pete Mockaitis
When you said they’re literally dying to tell you their story, I saw a study and, hopefully, we could find it in the show notes, is that folks were, in fact, willing to receive less money in an experiment if they had the opportunity to self-disclose, to say something about themselves. And so, we use the word literally, literally its value can have dollar signs attached to it.

Mike Litton
Well, here’s a question for you. What is it that makes dollars valuable?

Pete Mockaitis
You know what comes to mind is a snippet from an episode of the Simpsons in which Homer, he’s trying to find a donut, I think, under the couch and he goes, “Aww, $20.” And his brain says, “Wait, $20 can buy many donuts.” He says, “Explain.” “Money can be exchanged for goods and services.” So, I guess that’s your dictionary definition of why, “Why money is valuable.” It can be exchanged for goods and services.

But if we dig into the theme of the day, the curiosity and what it means to individual people, it’s quite fascinating. And my mom worked as a, she was the CEO of the Education Personnel Federal Credit Union in Danville, Illinois, so all my teachers banked with my mom at the Credit Union, which is an interesting experience. So, there was a constant conversation loop between the two in there. And she’ll tell you it was quite fascinating. Everyone’s views of money could be so different, and yet strongly held.

Mike Litton
So, let me ask you this. What’s the difference between their views?

Pete Mockaitis
So she would say, for example, that you could take any facet of their relationship to money and it’d be very different. Like, for some folks, like debt, they won’t touch it, “No, no, no. That’s scary stuff. Don’t want to go there.” Others, totally comfortable with it and totally comfortable with their bankruptcy afterwards.

Mike Litton
Is it possible to say that their value of money comes from emotion?

Pete Mockaitis
Probably, yeah, because money does something for you that you care about, whether you call it freedom or responsibility or…

Mike Litton
Accomplishment.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Mike Litton
Right? Okay. So, if you feel accomplished by getting X amount of money for something, and you’re willing to take less if you’re able to tell your story, how does that equate? It’s because the value of getting more diminishes because you’re now closer to that person and you’ve now had an opportunity to express who you are. Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you.

Mike Litton
We’re emotional creatures. We buy with emotion. We justify with logic, okay?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I buy that.

Mike Litton
That’s exactly the reason. That’s exactly the reason why that study says what it says, because if all you do is get to know somebody and get them to a place to where they’re comfortable, and they’re comfortable talking with you, all of a sudden, they’d be willing to take less. All of a sudden, they’d be willing to work with you.

All of a sudden, they’d be willing to figure out a way to sell you whatever it is they’re trying to sell you, be it a car, house, whatever, simply because they want you to have it. Why? Because you cared enough to ask. You cared enough to show an interest in them.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you’re bringing me back to my most recent substantial purchase was a hefty custom-made studio door. And I noticed on the website, it said there’s a 10% discount, but I had started working with the sales guy, Kyle, who was amazing. And so, he gives me the price, then I mentioned, “Well, you know, I also noticed that there was this discount from the website. And it’d be great if we could apply that, but don’t do it if that impacts your compensation any way, because I want you to earn the entirety of it.”

So, there I was thinking, “Kyle is so awesome. I would like a lower price, but not if it impacts his money.” So, he’s like, “Oh, we could do it.” I was like, “It’s awesome. Thanks. Win-win.”

Mike Litton
Yeah, there it is.

Pete Mockaitis
In action.

Mike Litton
Exactly, in action, yeah. That’s cool. Yeah, so what you want to try to do, and this is again, questions are incredibly important, but they’re only important if you’re using them strategically. Okay. And the best way to use questions strategically is to stay in curiosity, stay out of judgment, get to know people.

I tell people all the time, I’m the king of the stupid question. Why? Because I’ll ask questions you won’t ask. I’ll ask questions the person down the street won’t ask. Why? Because they prejudge those questions. They’re in judgment, not in curiosity. I don’t prejudge questions. I just ask. And if it’s inappropriate, people will tell me, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, can you give us a couple examples of a question that some may say, “That’s too dumb,” but you go there and it works out for you?

Mike Litton
Well, a lot of times, you’ll have people that will tell you about some accomplishment. They’ll tell you about something that they’ve done. And at the end of it, I always end up turning around and asking them, “So, let me ask you a question. What was it about that that made you feel accomplished? What was it about that that you’re so proud of?”

Most people won’t go there. Most people won’t want to go to a place where they dig a little bit where somebody’s concerned, and they certainly won’t ask them if this person has had some sort of tragedy in their life. So, I interviewed a lady yesterday who has been through a lot of tragedy. She was born in Zimbabwe, grew up in Zimbabwe, moved to the UK. Had all kinds of interesting things happen.

As a 20-year-old girl, she spent the night in a phone booth, you know, those red phone booths in London. She spent the night in there because she had nowhere to go. She was homeless that night, and it was because of an immigration thing and some sort of snafu and this and that.

And so, I asked her, I said, “So, how did that make you feel?” Well, most people won’t go there because they don’t want to know how it’s going to make her feel, and they know it’s probably going to cause her to cry.

Now, if she’s not willing to tell me, she can always say, “I’m not willing to go there,” okay? But that’s not what happened. She ended up telling me how it made her feel, and it helped to motivate her to where she is today, where she’s an amazing success, but she’s an amazing success because of all the things that she went through in her life. Makes sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I love that a lot. And what’s so interesting is people are scared to ask those questions. They don’t ask those questions. And we have this fear that there’s going to be a bad outcome. And yet, as I think about some of my darkest moments, you know, my dad died when I was a teenager, I got punched in the face randomly in Chicago.

I really value and appreciate the people who do ask those follow-up questions, because I feel like they really care because, and it’s rare and noteworthy and special. And I might be reliving a bit of some sadness or unpleasantness, but, in a way, it’s more positive than negative because I feel cared about and I’m able to confront something with, like, a helper, a teammate, someone on my side.

Mike Litton
And it’s cathartic. It’s cathartic. If you keep it inside, if you keep it in here, it feels, it just festers and it gets worse and worse and worse. And pretty soon, it feels like it’s this big and it’s heavy and it’s obtrusive and all that, right? When all you have to do is get that person to tell you about it and tell you how it makes them feel.

Now, are they going to cry? Typically. Possibly. Right? Are there going to be tears? Yeah. Are they going to get emotional? Yeah. I don’t want to make people cry, but I also don’t want people to keep that bottled up. It’s not healthy. It’s not healthy to not talk about that. And I’d be willing to bet you that with what happened with your dad, that that made you a better father. I’d be willing to bet you that it did. And I would ask you that question.

So, let me ask you a question, losing your dad when you did, how did that affect you and your mission as a dad? And then, all of sudden, it’s like, “Huh, here comes the flood works.” Because it really does affect you in a major way. And it’s one of those things that is sort of a pivot point in your life, painful, but a pivot point in your life.

And you can then pivot in that conversation to all the wonderful things that you’re doing for your kids. All the wonderful things that you’re doing as a dad. All the wonderful things you’re doing as a leader in the community, because that’s what your dad would have done. Does that make sense? That’s everything.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, it really does. And we’re talking about questions and I just want to say the answer, because, sure enough, case and point, this is the stuff working, and it does make me want to let my kids know, absolutely, every day, and clearly that they’re loved. Like, I’ll say, “Did we forget good morning hugs and kisses?” you know? “Well, let’s go ahead and do that now,” because you never know. Today may be our last day.

And so, I would like that to be unmissable in terms of like, “Oh, if I exited, that would be very clear to them, “My dad absolutely loved me.” Or, in terms of just my own health, it’s like, “Hey, as a 41-year-old man, things like cholesterol kind of matter. So, got to take care of some business.”

Mike Litton
Yeah. And, you know, there are all kinds of positives that came from you losing your dad as early as you did. And the way that you go about exploring that is by asking questions about how did that help you. What are the top three things that you do today that you would not have done if that hadn’t happened? Those types of things.

And so, all of sudden, you’re now looking at this, and you’re looking at it in terms of, “Wow, this really did happen for a reason. This really is something that’s had a major impact in my life.” And the best thing about it is, if I’m interviewing you, the audience now has an opportunity to share with you in what that experience was like, and what your life post that event has been.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic stuff. Well, Mike, I’m curious, any other do’s and don’ts when it comes to the question game?

Mike Litton
You know, the one thing that I want people to understand is the person that’s asking the questions in the conversation is the person that’s controlling it. So, you’re the person that’s controlling the conversation, right? And it’s not about being a control freak or any of that kind of stuff, but it is about where you take the conversation.

Because, ultimately, if you’re asking questions and you’re talking to somebody, what you’re doing, basically, is you’re helping them get to where you know they need to be, okay? And I’ll give you an example. So, I interviewed a lady that I call my CEO whisperer.

And the reason I call her that is because she worked for one of the most awesome CEOs ever in the business in corporate America for 25 years. And he was somebody who was very authentic and he was very approachable. He was very sort of normal, right, where he would go in and he would sit with somebody that was two, three, four levels, five levels down from him.

He would go in, sit with them, close the door, take out a pad and a pen, and he’d ask them, “How are you doing? How is the company doing for you? How is the company helping you to get to what your goals are? How can we do better? How can we win with you?” Okay? Now all of these questions are important, and he would listen to the answers. And the most important thing is he would write down the responses.

What that did, Pete, was that validated them. And they connected with this man on a deeper level. The fact of the matter is this, there’s a survey or study that just came out where 86% of workers in America are detached, disengaged from their jobs – 86%. If all we do as leaders is, go sit with our people, and just connect with them.

Just sit down with them and ask them those questions, “How are you? How are we doing as a company for you? Are we helping you as much as we can to reach your goals? What do you think tomorrow looks like? How can we succeed together? How can we win with you?” All these types of wonderful questions that helped that CEO to connect with that person that works for them, right, “What are you seeing on the front lines that I need to know about because I’m up in the C-suite?” All of those things.

So, I’ll give you an example. Let’s say that your company has your board of directors, has decided that they want to take sales from point A to point B, so from here to here, okay? Up, up, right. And you go and sit with the people that work for you. The best thing you can do is walk in, and say, “Look, the board of directors has tasked me as the CEO to get our sales from here to here. What part in that ascension or that increase in sales can you help us with? What active part can you have in this? Great. Tell me more.”

And it’s one of those things where they’re going to, literally, sit with you, and they’re going to share with you how they can help that company succeed. Imagine you do that a hundred times with a hundred employees. What do you think next year’s going to look like?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, awesome.

Mike Litton
You with me? And they’ll, literally, say to you, out of their own mouths, because when you speak it, it’s real. You know this. When you speak it, it’s real. They’ll, literally, tell you out of their own mouths in their own words, “This is what I can do. This is what I will do.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And it’s fun in terms of…

Mike Litton
It’s absolutely fun.

Pete Mockaitis
“Well, you know, I’m actually pretty good at this thing. So, would it help if I did that?” And they say, “Well, yeah, it would.” And they say, “Well, great because that’s what I like to do anyway, and I get to make a contribution at the same time. That’s just a good workday.”

Mike Litton
“And I get to build a deeper relationship with the guy that I work for.”

Pete Mockaitis
Super.

Mike Litton
It’s all a plus.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mike, any final thoughts before we hear a few of your favorite things?

Mike Litton
Just be curious. Stay in curiosity. Stay out of judgment.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, then let’s now hear, can you tell us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Mike Litton
What you speak is real. If you speak it, it’s real.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or piece of research?

Mike Litton
Yes. The 7-38-55 Rule. And it’s amazing to me how few people know about the 7-38-55 Rule. Are you familiar with it?

Pete Mockaitis
I think you’re going to talk about the impact of our words versus tone versus nonverbal.

Mike Litton
Yeah. So, you do know about it. So, 7% of human communication is the words that you choose, like loquacious versus talkative, right? So, 7% is your vocabulary. Thirty-eight percent of your ability to communicate to another human being is the way you say the words that you choose, your tonality, your energy, your congruency, your commitment, all of it, dedication, all of it, okay?

Fifty-five percent, more than half of your ability to communicate with another human being is body language. It’s how you use your physical body. It’s your facial gestures. It’s your gestures. It’s everything. It’s how you carry yourself. What’s interesting about it is 100% of your ability to communicate with another human being is face to face. That’s why video is such a big deal.

But if you look at what we call the telephone quotient, it’s 7 plus 38, it’s 45. So, 45%, less than half of your ability to communicate with another human being is verbal. So, it’s over the phone, right? So, that’s why when you’re making phone calls, we suggest that you stand in front of a mirror, that you stand up, that you smile because people can hear you smiling over the phone.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, very good. And a favorite book?

Mike Litton
Nobody Is Coming to Save You by a guy by the name of Scott Mann.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Mike Litton
Asking questions.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key Mike Litton-original sound bite that people quote back to you often?

Mike Litton
Mike Time. So, when I owned my real estate office, it was a very large real estate office. I had hundreds of agents working with me. I would get a phone call from them, and I still do, even now that we don’t own it anymore. The agents that used to work with us would call me up and go, “I just need five minutes of Mike Time.”

And what that meant was they had gone out into the world; the world had beat them up and they just needed five minutes with somebody who was sane and somebody who was positive and somebody who would listen to them. And that was me.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Mike Litton
Probably LinkedIn. Just look up Mike Litton at LinkedIn. And then I have this podcast called The Mike Litton Experience. You can Google it, where anywhere you get your podcasts – Spotify, Apple iTunes, Amazon, anywhere you get your audio. And then, also, we have a YouTube channel, “The Mike Litton Experience.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Mike Litton
Stay in curiosity. Stay out of judgment.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Mike, thank you.

Mike Litton
Thank you, bud. This was fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Robert, welcome.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Thank you, Pete, so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
I’m excited to hear about your wisdom. And you’ve got the coolest nickname ever, one I think I would like for myself. You’re known as the Indiana Jones of positive psychology. So, I’m imagining rolling boulders, whips, all kinds of adventures. Tell me, what’s the source of this nickname? And can you give us an amazing adventure and discovery to back it up?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. Like all nicknames, I did not give it to myself. That is important for everyone.

Pete Mockaitis
“They call me T-Bone.”

Robert Biswas-Diener
Everyone should know that right up front. One of my colleagues said this about me because, unlike other psychologists, I wasn’t just running studies in the laboratory with college students. I was going out in the field, and pretty far field. I was studying happiness, among other things, with the Amish, for example, with Maasai tribal people. I stayed in the very Northern tip of Greenland where I was working with Inuit hunters. So, I spent several years, almost five years sort of traveling the world and studying happiness.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. Thank you. So, we’re talking about your book, Radical Listening, and I’d love to get to kick us off with an inspiring story of someone who upgraded their listening game and saw phenomenal results coming from that.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Yeah, absolutely. There is a woman I interviewed, in fact, for this book, she’s a very senior leader, works in an international organization. In fact, they own a bunch of subsidiaries, which means their footprint is across industry, across linguistic groups, across cultures, across national boundaries.

And she always thought of herself as a fantastic listener, but then she realized, “I really can’t even understand the language of some of these people. I don’t understand the cultural fabric or context of many of the people I’m trying to listen to. And perhaps most importantly, my role suggests that I’m not even interested in what they’re interested in.”

So, she’s thinking big strategic ideas, and they’re often looking at just sort of day-to-day operations. And she realized that she kind of just fundamentally can’t understand them, that her role is an obstacle to listening. And one of the things she did was recruited listening ambassadors to listen on her behalf and become sort of like Rosetta Stones or translators of the line worker up to the senior leadership.

And so, the thing I think is so remarkable about that is not just that she recruited these ambassadors, which is kind of a cool idea, but that she recognized the limits in her own listening and moved to correct it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there’s a fun thought, a listening ambassador, and, in some ways, it feels a lot more wholesome and upright than, I guess, the non-consensual listening ambassadors called a spy. It’s like, “Spy on people and gather the information,” as opposed to a listening ambassador is like, “Oh, we all know what’s going on here. And I feel appreciated because you have made an investment to have someone gather my perspective when it may be difficult because of a language barrier or geographic barrier or something to see what’s going on.”

So, that’s a fun idea in and of itself in its specificity, but also, in terms of a general concept of, “Let’s take listening seriously. Let’s invest in it. Let’s build some infrastructure and acknowledge how valuable this is and get after it.”

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. Let me just say that I’m very tickled that you used spy as an example. My co-author and I on Radical Listening used loads of examples of professional listeners, psychotherapists, managers, all sorts of people who listen for a living. And we did not include espionage as an industry among it, but only through oversight. As soon as you said it, I wish that we would have included that in the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, maybe the sequel, we’ll see. But I’m sure you’ve got boatloads of insights for us and we want to dig into it. Tell us, is there a key message or big idea that you capture in your book, Radical Listening, that folks who want to be awesome at their jobs should know?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. It is time for listening to have a refresh. Let’s start there. All of us grew up with or have been trained in so-called active listening. And active listening is a good start, you know, make eye contact, summarize what the person says, check for clarification, “Am I reading you right?” It really emphasizes comprehension and it positions listening as if it’s just about understanding.

And what we do to extend that is suggest that there are many intentions for listening, that you might listen in order to entertain a group, you might listen to just appreciate someone, you might listen to influence, you might listen to learn something, you might listen to argue or rebut. And whatever your intention is, that’s going to direct your attention. And it’s a very, very efficient form of listening. So, a courtroom litigator, for example, is not listening to validate opposing counsel. They don’t care how…

Pete Mockaitis
“It must be really hard for you, plaintiff. It must be really difficult.”

Robert Biswas-Diener
That’s exactly right. Just like, “Ah, I can really see that this must be difficult,” or, “Wow, even trying this case must be such a burden. I’m sure you had to stay up late,” all those types of things. That’s out the window. And you don’t even have to worry about what’s the emotional state of the opposition. Instead, you’re just focused on the things that are goal-oriented for you. So, weak evidence, spurious arguments, logical fallacies, inconsistencies, and that’s what you’re listening for.

And it turns out that whatever your intention, if you want to listen to validate someone, you are going to listen for their emotions. If you want to listen to learn, you’re going to listen, pay attention to key words, to connections between what they’re saying and your own web of knowledge. So, just the idea that there are multiple intentions, you should know your intention, and your intention guides your attention.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Robert, is it fair to say that our limited human brain capacity can’t have it all, we can’t get all the logic and all the learning and all the education and all the emotion at once?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. I’m glad that you’re bringing that up because I do think it’s a common belief, and I certainly have held this belief in the past, that, “Oh, I’m a great listener, and I can just sort of sponge all of it up. I’m getting everything. I’m getting the motive behind what you’re saying. I’m noticing what you’re not saying. I’m noticing your tone of voice. I’m noticing everything.” And it’s just not the way that attention works. So, being a bit more judicious with this limited resource can be, I think, very productive.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s lay out the flavors of intention, just make sure we have the full menu documented here.

Robert Biswas-Diener
So, broadly speaking, you might think of there are sort of three umbrellas that we could put these intentions under. One is sort of pro-social motives for listening, so, “I’m listening to appreciate you. I’m listening to connect with you. I’m listening to partner with you to solve a problem.” Those would be three pro-social motives.

Three anti-social motives, “I’m listening to find fault. I’m listening to undermine you.” Those are kind of related. And, thirdly, “I’m listening to defend myself against you.” And then we also have three, kind of, we call them self-focused, although I’m not sure, to be honest, that’s the best way to look at it. But these are just three things that sort of help me. And that is, “I’m just listening to learn something new. I’m listening for comprehension,” that’s sort of the classic act of listening. And those are kind of the two big motives that are helpful to me as the listener.

Pete Mockaitis
Is there a distinction between listening to learn something new and listening for comprehension?

Robert Biswas-Diener
So, listening for comprehension is, “Do I understand what I’m hearing?” Learning is, “Now that I understand it, can I integrate it? Can I find use for it? Can I synthesize it with my own existing body of knowledge and skill in usable ways?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so then I suppose the implication of this is to thoughtfully choose your intention upfront in advance of the conversation, as opposed to just showing up in whatever brain state you happen to be wearing at the moment.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. And where you see this go wrong, imagine a team meeting, for example, where you’ve got a pretty funny person on the team and they just keep cracking jokes. And it’s nice when it works because it cuts through tension, it lightens the mood, but maybe they default to it too often. And it’s because that’s just sort of a default listening mode for them, like, “I’m just listening to entertain people.”

So, those kinds of people listen for pauses because pauses are where you insert jokes. They’re listening for themes because themes are what you’re going to riff on. But it might not be helpful because that might not be what is needed. So, you also need some alignment with sort of what is contextually or situationally appropriate.

If someone wants feedback on a presentation, you should be directing your attention towards that, “I want to listen with a critical ear and see what works, what doesn’t. What do I know about you in terms of your ability to take feedback? How much do I need to sugarcoat it?” those types of things. So, a little bit of matching your listening intention with what’s being asked for.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think it’s interesting how we may very well have that default mode. You mentioned entertainment, which I guess wasn’t on the menu. So, I guess there’s many flavors beyond the eight you’ve suggested is my takeaway there, is that we may very well have a default state all the time in terms of– I remember I had a sweet friend and mentor, Marilyn, and she just knew this guy who was a billionaire, and she just thought that was cool.

And she was working with some students and she just thought, “Hey, these students have an entrepreneurial interest. They might just have fun, you know, dinner with this guy. I know him, I know the students, let’s just do this.” And so, she’s talking to with the person, and he just says immediately, “Okay, so what do you want?” because that’s what he’s accustomed to. It’s like, “People tap on me to make requests of my resources.”

And she said, “Well, I’m sorry that this is just how life goes for you. We just think it’d be fun to hang out and get to know you and learn a little bit about your world.” And he’s like, “Oh, well, that sounds really nice. Let’s set it up.”

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. And one of the things I like about that story is that what they’re trying to do in a very explicit way is just make sure that they’re aligned, “What is it you’re asking for? What is it I want?” We all know times that someone sort of complains to you and really all they want is a bit of validation.

They just want you to say, “I get it. You’re a victim. You’ve been done wrong here. I’m so sorry. You’ve put on a brave face. You’re doing great.” And instead, what we give them is a bunch of advice and try and solve their problem. And when that misalignment happens, it actually is a bit destructive to the relationship. It feels off and disconnecting.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so that sounds like a key benefit just right there. It’s like when you’re matching the intention appropriately, relationships are enriched because this folk, is like, “Oh, this is beautiful. This person is giving me just what I need in this moment, and it just feels good. And I like them more and I am less annoyed and frustrated with them.”

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. And, look, I want to be cautious and honest. I’m not one of these people that writes a book, like, “Oh, I wrote a book on listening. And guess what? I happen to think that listening is the thing that’s going to cure the world and all the problems.” I don’t think that. I think listening is sort of like opening the door, but then you still have to walk through it and do some exploration. I think listening is a good start.

I think listening, in the way that you just mentioned, where you kind of listen with positive intent, you have respect, you both feel aligned, that’s a great place then to build a relationship, then to cooperate, then to engage in teamwork or change or whatever it is you’re going to do. So, I think it starts with listening, but I don’t think listening by itself is the whole picture.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And let’s say we’re all in, Robert. That sounds great. I would like to do that and I would like to do that well and I could see the benefits. And yet, you also highlight a few internal barriers to listening. Can you lay these out for us?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. In all honesty, this is one of my favorite parts of everything my co-author and I have put down on the page. Some of the barriers, everyone’s going to already have an intuition about, “Oh, let me guess, distraction, technology, your phone.” Sure. All of those are barriers. But the ones that I think are really kind of almost the insidious ones are the ones that you may be less aware of.

So, for example, feeling that you’re right about something is a barrier to learn, “I mean, why listen, because I already know? I already have made up my mind and foreclosed on my own rightness about this.” Politeness can be a barrier to listening. Like, instead of really paying attention to you, I’ve just sort of dismissed in my mind what you’re saying and I’m just nodding along and saying, “Yes, yes, yes,” even though I don’t mean it, and I’ve just checked out, but politeness is sort of this cloth that I’m swaddled in that protects me from real listening.

One that I find really interesting, I call it walk with me. In the book, we call it time urgency. And it’s this idea that you go to someone and you’re like, “Hey, I’ve got something I need to speak with you about,” and they say something along the lines of, “Walk with me. I’ve got a meeting here, it’s going to start in eight minutes, but come with me, walk with me.”

And it’s so well-intentioned. To the listener, the person saying “Walk with me,” it’s this idea that, “Oh, look at me, how gracious I am. I’m making time for you.” But it can really feel awful to the person who has this urgent request. They’re sort of saying, “There’s something very important.”

And you’re saying, “My mind is already to the next thing. At best, I’m wedging you in. I am already a bit distracted. I’m giving you a limited amount of time and we’re catering to my needs rather than your needs. In fact, you’re going somewhere you hadn’t even intended to go.”
And so, although it’s well-intentioned, I think it runs the risk. And there’s a whole bunch of these that are well-intentioned, but run the risk of just standing in the way of great listening.

Pete Mockaitis
More of those, please. Lay them on us.

Robert Biswas-Diener
These are cousins, conceptually speaking. One is comparing. And we’ve all done this. Comparing is when someone mentions an experience and then you’re like, “Hey, I’ve also had that experience.” And so, you share that with them. They say, “Oh, yeah, I went to Hong Kong last summer.” You’re like, “Oh, wow, you know what? I went to Hong Kong last summer, too.”

And again, it’s well intentioned because what you’re trying to communicate is, “Look, we have this common ground. We have a shared experience. Like, we’re cut from the same cloth.” And yet, what it does is it sort of shifts the spotlight away from them. It often does work, which is why we do it. But when it doesn’t work, it’s sort of like saying, “Enough about you and your Hong Kong stories. Let’s talk about me and my Hong Kong stories.”

And the cousin to it is competing. And this happens when, often in a complaint scenario, when someone will say something like, “I was up till 2:00 working on that report last night. I only got six hours of sleep, so I’m a little tired today.” And as a rejoinder, you say, “Six hours of sleep? I only got three hours of sleep.”

Again, it’s well-intentioned. You’re not trying to put them down or invalidate them. You’re trying to say, “We’re cut from the same cloth. We’re both people who are sleep-deprived,” but it comes across, oftentimes, as being dismissive.

So, there’s many of these things that are intuitively appealing to us as conversationalists that I think serve as these kinds of murky barriers that we might not even be aware of that, that often sort of burst the bubble of connection.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, what seems the underlying theme of all of these is, “To what extent are we allowing our conversational counterpart, our interlocutor…” I’m thinking Plato, “…to take center stage?” versus, “Does it need to be about me?”

Robert Biswas-Diener
One hundred percent. And I think that is the core of Radical Listening is the idea that, “When I interact with you, I want you to feel like you do have a spotlight on you, that I do have genuine concern for what you’re talking about, that you do have the space to articulate your thoughts, agenda, ideas, opinions, whatever it is that you want to share.” And whenever we sort of grab the podium away, that’s where things get problematic.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, I’m reminded of, I had just a fun conversation with a midwife who said that she used to work in hospice, and she was amazed when the family arrived in the final days before someone was about to pass away. And she said, “I was astounded at everyone’s ability to make the dying person about them. It’s like, ‘You know, I just got the call. I had to change my flight.” Like all these things, like, as the hustle and bustle, as they get into the hospital room, like in the final days, because they’re like, “Hey, you better get here because they don’t have much time left.”

And she said, “I was amazed at how this happened again and again and again.” And I think it’s really telling because it’s an extreme situation and it highlights that, for many of us, I mean, it sounds bad, but I guess it’s maybe accurate language. We have such a self-centered preoccupation running in our brains, we don’t even realize how off-putting it can be. And that happens maybe, I don’t know, for some of us all the time and for some of us, you know, occasionally. But it’s sort of spooky how common this blind spot is.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. And it’s all of us. It’s me. It’s probably you to some extent. We are the protagonists in the plays of our own lives, right? And if someone said, “Oh, by the way, do you know you’re actually just a supporting character?” That’s kind of an unsettling way of thinking. One of the things I noticed about you, Pete, I mean, as a professional listener, right, you’re listening to guests all the time, but you’re sort of doing this balance of it’s not only about the guest.

I mean, if you were just silent and then the guest spoke the entire time, that wouldn’t be very gratifying either. So, there is this sort of dance between you inserting key moments, but giving sort of the lion’s share to the guests. And, in general, I think that’s kind of how conversations go, that if you listen with respect, you really make the person feel valued in what they’re saying, then it will come back around to you and you will get to be the main character for a time. But then you also have to be ready to relinquish that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, Robert, it’s an interesting situation here because, I mean you no disrespect, but the most important stakeholder in this conversation isn’t here and it’s the listener and it’s all in service of them. And so, it just happens to work out nicely that we’re both fascinated by this topic that we’re in, because I get tons of pitches and we reject the vast majority of them.

So, the fact that we’re here means I’m into it, you’re into it, and that’s just good, and that’s good content for a listener. But, yeah, it’s interesting because that’s the game, is if you have the coolest story, but it’s not in service of the listener, I’m going to try to move us on and then the audio editors will remove it later. And that’s kind of the game we’re playing right now.

Robert Biswas-Diener
It’s so interesting. I never, in a million years, would admit to what I’m about to admit to.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m into it.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Yeah, but I’m going to because of the direction that this conversation just took. During this conversation that we have been having, in my mind, because I’m also monitoring what I’m saying, a thought popped into my head and it was, “Be careful not to give away all the content of the book, Robert, right, because you want the listeners out there to be hungry for more and to go buy the book.”

And as soon as I had that thought, I thought of that as a disservice to the listener. And I thought, “Really, this is in the service of the listener. What we want is to give them as much usable content, as many fresh ideas as possible. And whether they buy the book, don’t buy the book, should not be my primary concern because that is that egotistical bias. But instead, I really should be doing this in service of them. Can I just tell you as much information as possible and you, the listener, can decide what’s useful for you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, while we’re riffing on these things, that reminds me of, I’ve been reflecting lately. I think it was by this book by Marcus, somebody, called They Ask, You Answer, and it’s about content marketing. And so, he says, “Consumers find it very frustrating,” and I agree. If I’m on a website and I want to know, say, “Hey, what’s this thing costs?” and they will not give me a price, or even like a guideline of what the price might be, it’s frustrating.

Because, as consumer, it’s like, “You know the price or the price range, and I know that you know it, and you know that I know that you know it, but you’re choosing not to give it to me,” especially on a frequently asked questions, an FAQ, “Really the price is not one of the frequently asked questions? That seems like among the most frequently of asked questions.”

And so, likewise, there are some YouTube channels or podcasts, and I won’t, you know, poo-poo them by name, but it sits a little bit wrong with me when I know. I’m all about building curiosity and teasing and being intriguing. But if they say, you know, for example, if we were to tease this interview and we started with you with a clip saying, “And the number one most transformational key to listening is…” and it like bleeps it out and it like blurs it.

It’s like I, as a listener, a consumer, I find that troubling because like, “You know it, I know it, you’re deliberately withholding it from me. And I don’t like that. And in order to get me to listen, to watch more, to view the ads, or whatever. And I think it’s counterproductive. Because if you give me something mind-blowing, I’m like, ‘Whoa, Robert, this guy has got insights. I better listen to more of him.’” So that’s just my take on that practice.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Well, I absolutely love your take. And I love the direction that this conversation has taken because it’s like a real moment of authenticity in, otherwise, what could feel scripted. You ask me some questions about the book. I’ve been on lots of podcasts. I give you lots of answers that I’m pretty practiced at. But here, suddenly, we’re getting into, I think, a very real example of listening and all the foibles around listening, which is sometimes I have my own agenda and it interferes with another agenda. Sometimes I’m not sure what to do. Sometimes I don’t have a clear intention.

And all of this is happening within us while we’re trying to be good listeners. And that just feels very realistic to me. So, I’m not a person that’s like, “Oh, go buy the book, learn these five steps, and I promise you, you’re going to be a transformed, perfect listener.” You won’t. I mean, I think that you’ll learn more about listening. You might appreciate listening more. You might experiment with some things. People might notice that you’re listening a bit better. And I think there is some mileage to be had in that kind of realism.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I understand that you cannot give us the magical spells, the super five things that will cure all listening foibles but, nonetheless, I do want some of your actionable tips. Do we have some big dos and don’ts that just make a tremendous difference in your listening and all the relationship goodness that unfolds with great listening?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. So, we present six skills and, again, let’s be honest, there could be eight skills, there could be five skills. We chose six. Three of them we think of are internal. They’re things that would be invisible to your interlocutor. They’re just happening within you mentally. And three of them are behavioral, things that your conversational partner would notice.

So, I’ll just give you one that’s a little counterintuitive about what you would notice, one of the behavioral ones. We say that interjecting, or if you prefer, interrupting, is a highly engaged form of listening. And for most people that’s pretty counterintuitive. Most people have learned that politeness equals turn-based conversation, you speak, I speak, you speak, I speak, back and forth. And yet there are excellent reasons to interrupt.

So, I’ll just start by saying that if interruption is just overlapping speech, if that just means two people are speaking simultaneously, we’re all doing it all the time. So, if I say, “Mm-hmm,” while you’re talking, that’s a short interruption. If I say, “Oh, wow,” while you’re talking, that’s a bigger interruption. If I say, “What? Wait, I can’t believe it. No way,“ while you’re talking, that’s an even bigger interruption.

If I jump in and say, “Wait a minute. Say that again. What?” those are all forms of interruptions, and those are excellent because they show the person, “I care about what’s happening. I’m right here with you.” And the alternative is letting the person prattle on for 10 minutes. And then in return, you say, “There’s something you said 10 minutes ago that I’d like to go back to.” And that can feel really kind of dismissive to the person because they’re like, “Why did you just let me talk for 10 minutes if the thing that was interesting to you happened 10 minutes ago?”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s a really strong perspective. But, again, following that principle of your conversation partner is taking center stage, the interruptions are in service of them and your understanding, like, “Wait a minute. He said what? But didn’t he just say the opposite?” Or we could go, “Yes, he did. And that’s why this is a big deal.”

And so, you could see how the conversational vibe goes into a very connected place with that interruption as opposed to waiting, and just makes sure you clarify. It’s like, “Wait, Robert? Oh, no, that Robert. Oh, okay, now I’m tracking with you. I’m on the same page.”

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. And that clarification, that’s a perfect example, and we do these all the time. Another type is called an alert. So, let’s say you and I are both talking about that Robert, and here comes Robert, but you can’t see him because your back is to him. And I might say, “Pete, shut up. Here he comes.” That’s an alert and that’s an interruption, but you never think that’s rude because you think it’s in the service of you. So, anytime that I’m essentially jumping in, but then returning the turn to speak to you, people just don’t even clock it as rude at all.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, interruptions can be helpful. What else you got?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Absolutely. Let’s do one on the other side of the fence. One of the internal skills. Let’s start with just, I think, a tough one, and that’s acceptance. This is probably the toughest skill we have, and I just say it like, “Oh, just accept the other person and what they’re saying.” But anyone who’s been alive for five minutes knows that that’s really, really a hard pill to swallow.

So, what we mean when we say acceptance is not that you are agreeing with the point of view. You’re welcome to present counter evidence, alternatives but, at some point, you have to sort of understand that the person you’re speaking with has a right to a point of view. And to do this, it requires some personal intellectual humility. And intellectual humility is like a cousin to actual humility.

Humility is thinking that you have no more fundamental worth than another person. But intellectual humility is a recognition that you are limited, that you haven’t figured it all out, that you do have some natural biases, that you do have a skewed vision, that your personal experience colors your vision of life. And it’s fine for you to come up with moral reasoning or professional expertise, but it’s equally fine for another person. And you can’t just assume, you’re wiser, you’re smarter, and you happen to have landed on the truth, lucky you.

You should think, “You know what, that person may have different values, they’ve had different experiences, they have a different professional role, and so they’re going to arrive at slightly different conclusions. I don’t ever have to agree with them, but I always have to respect their right to have them.” And that takes some work, but when you engage in that, you have more types of conversations and you open a door to conversations that you might otherwise avoid that can ultimately be productive conversations.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you give us an example?

Robert Biswas-Diener
I think, day to day, this happens at work all the time. And it’s just, you know, one person wants to greenlight a project and the other person says, “No, I don’t think we have capacity for it right now,” or, “I don’t think it’s fleshed out well enough,” or, “I don’t think the strategy is in place for it.”

And you have two totally opposing views. And often what happens is the two parties are embattled and they simply aren’t listening. It becomes this sort of feat of who can bully the other into getting their way, “If only I can lob so much evidence at you, so much passion at you, I’ll convince you that my chosen direction is the right direction.”

But it gets back to the kind of that seven habits idea, you know, first seek to understand and then be understood. Kind of like, “Look, I already know what I think, but I am curious what you think. What is it you’re looking at? What is it you’re seeing that I’m not seeing?” And when you do that, every once in a while, you’re surprised. It helps you retain a more positive view of the person you’re talking about.

They’re not just some, you know, bumbling dolt that that happen to arrive at something, that they actually are pretty thoughtful and pretty intentional in their approach. And you may or may not get what you want out of that, but it is going to lead to a better team dynamic in that.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, Robert, tell me anything else you want to make sure to put out there before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Robert Biswas-Diener
I’ll just mention that this applies, to some degree, across cultures, but culture is kind of interesting. We learn cultural scripts for interacting with one another. I’ve recently been traveling with someone. I’m American, and the person I was traveling with was not American. And I just realized that they didn’t have a script for some basic conversations.

Like, “How does this coffee shop banter work? The person asked me how I was, not just what I wanted to order. And I don’t know the level of depth I should be answering that question in, how much honesty I should be giving them.” Things that we would just take for granted because we have a good intuitive sense for those kinds of answers.

I was in the elevator with him and I was speaking to strangers on the elevator, and he’s like, “How did you know you could do that? What were you taking into account that made it okay for you to speak with strangers?” And I just started realizing, “Wow, this is really, really different across cultures.” And some of the things that listening does across cultures is, for example, the role of silence.

People interpret silence differently across cultures. So, for example, in Japan, just to use one instance, silence is often considered respectful. It is a sign of thoughtfulness and it’s usually perceived as something, not the absence of something, and you are kind of paying attention to silences. So, like, if people aren’t talking, maybe it means they don’t agree, but they don’t want to say it. And so, you are kind of trying to read the silence a bit.

Whereas, you imagine in the United States, silence is often felt as awkward and we rush to fill it in. So, some of these kind of communication exchanges, some of the communication technology is going to shift a little bit based on people’s cultural script.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, thank you. Well, now can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Robert Biswas-Diener
It comes from George Bernard Shaw’s play, “Julius Caesar,” and it is, “Forgive him, Theodotus, for he is a barbarian, and thinks the ways of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.” And I just love the idea of kind of intellectual humility built into that.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Robert Biswas-Diener
One of my colleagues, Shige Oishi, had people shoot basketballs or shoot darts, and he saw how well they did at each. And he invited them back the next week and said, “Take your choice. Do you want to do baskets or darts?” And the Americans who did well at one wanted to stay with it and keep doing the one because they wanted, wanted to stay with the thing that they felt good about.

And the Asians and Asian Americans in his study, if they did well on one, they wanted to shift and do the opposite one because they were more inclined to want to master something new. And I’ve always just felt like that was a very clever methodology and a very interesting cultural study.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Robert Biswas-Diener
This is a recency effect, but I just finished Dracula and I loved it.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Robert Biswas-Diener
A pen.

Pete Mockaitis
Any particular brand or type or features?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Well, I do a lot of drawing also, so I like anything that doesn’t smear, but I just use a lot of Bic roller balls.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Oh, my favorite habit is to wake up extraordinarily early and draw for one hour before I start the day. I always prioritize my wellbeing so that I feel strong and centered before embarking on everything else I’m going to do.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear them put it back to you often?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Yeah, a recent one, and I stole this actually from my co-author, but just the idea that you should remember that everyone is in the middle of something. And if you just approach everyone all the time with, “You know what, they’re in the middle of something. I’m in the middle of something. They’re in the middle of something,” it can make you a little bit more forgiving and a little bit more patient.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Robert Biswas-Diener
I would point them to my website, IntentionalHappiness.com. And I’d love to hear from people.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Robert Biswas-Diener
Yeah, absolutely. And let’s keep it thematically aligned with listening. I would pay attention to times that you, this coming week, feel really listened to, and note what the other person is doing. What’s happening that makes you feel so heard, so validated? And see then if that’s what you can do to pay it forward.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Robert, thank you.

Robert Biswas-Diener
Oh, thanks so much. This was super fun.