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Jan 29
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1124: How to Build Hope and Combat Burnout at Work with Jen Fisher

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Jen Fisher discusses the strategic value of hope—and how leaders can harness it to improve wellbeing and transform the workplace.

You’ll Learn

  1. Why hope is a valid strategy in the workplace
  2. How a few words can kill or build hope
  3. How to counter your brain’s tendency to be overly critical

About Jen 

Jen Fisher is a global authority on workplace wellbeing, the bestselling author of Work Better Together, and the founder and CEO of The Wellbeing Team.

As Deloitte US’s first chief wellbeing officer, she pioneered a groundbreaking, human-centered approach to work that gained international recognition and reshaped how organizations view wellbeing. 

Jen is also the creator and host of The WorkWell Podcast, a TEDx speaker, and a sought-after voice at events like Workhuman, SXSW, Milken Global Conference, and Happiness Camp. 

At the heart of Jen’s work is the knowledge that hope is not just a feeling—it’s a strategic imperative. She helps leaders harness hope as a catalyst for cultural transformation, guiding them to reimagine work as a force for human flourishing. She lives in Miami with her husband, Albert, and their dog, Fiona.

Resources Mentioned

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Jen Fisher Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jen, welcome!

Jen Fisher
Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to dig into your wisdom and to hear about hope. Could you share with us, for starters, an extra surprising and fascinating discovery you’ve made about hope as you’ve researched it?

Jen Fisher
I would say that hope is not an emotion, which most people think that it is. It’s a cognitive process. It’s not whimsical. It’s not wishful thinking. It’s not positive vibes only. As a matter of fact, many, many times hope is hard. And I would also say that hope is a daily practice and, obviously, I believe that hope is a strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so it’s not an emotion, it’s not positive vibes only, you said it’s a cognitive. Well, what is it exactly?

Jen Fisher
So, what the research shows, so C.R. Snyder is kind of the original, if you will, godfather of hope research, and what he and so many others have found about hope and why many of us say that it is a cognitive process and that hope is a strategy, is because real and realistic hope actually requires action. It requires three things from you.

It requires you to identify and set a goal, so to know where you want to go or know where you want to be. It requires, and this is perhaps the most important, that you identify multiple ways or pathways in which you can reach that goal. And so it’s not just one, it’s multiple ways. And then the final thing is that it requires you to understand and to know what your agency is in reaching that goal. And so, what is your ability to actually do something to get from here to there?

And so that’s why it requires action and what makes it a cognitive process and what makes it a strategy is because you actually have to not just think about it, not just put good vibes only out into the world, or say, “I’m going to win the lottery,” but you actually have to do something about it and you have to have the ability to do something about it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so it requires setting a goal, identifying multiple pathways, understanding our capabilities and how this is viable. And so, if I’ve done those things, I’m having an experience as a result of having done so. Is that what we’re calling hope?

Jen Fisher
That’s what we’re calling hope. That is what hope theory says. And I will tell you what hope theory also says. Hope theory and hope does not guarantee success. And that’s why I say hope is hard, right? Because sometimes you do all these things, you have all of this hope, and then things don’t work out the way that you want them to.

But I think what’s really great about hope is, you know those multiple pathways that you identified? If you start down one path and it doesn’t work, well, you’ve already identified other ways in which you can reach your goal so you don’t get stuck.

You kind of say, “Okay, well, that was interesting. It didn’t work. But, look, I have these other ways in which I can potentially reach this goal.” But hope does not guarantee success. Hope will let you down but it is still critically important.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, if I do those things, I’m having an experience that you call hope, but it’s not an emotion. So I don’t know if you want to get all dictionary or textbook-y, but so then what precisely is hope?

Jen Fisher
Hope is a strategy. It’s a cognitive process. It requires that process in order for it to be hope. When it comes to emotions, hope can spur positive emotions. It can create positive emotions. It can also potentially create negative emotions, but hope itself is not an emotion.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if I set a goal, I’d identified multiple pathways, I understand I’ve got capabilities that could get her done, but if I still have a lot of doubt and pessimism and think, “This probably won’t work,” do I have hope?

Jen Fisher
You could, yes. I mean, look, I think those things can coexist. I would say, what makes hope unique is that it requires you to take action. So you could be pessimistic or you could believe that it’s not going to work, but if you’re still taking action towards the goal on the off chance that it could work, then, yeah, you do have hope.

But, look, I think hope can coexist with doubt. Hope can coexist with hopelessness. Hope can coexist with despair. It can coexist with other things that are seemingly its opposite, just like many things. Most things in our life can coexist with other things that are seemingly its opposite, but what hope requires is action.

And so, if you were moving towards that goal, regardless of whether or not you think it’s going to work, you do have some hope that it’s going to work. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be moving, continuing to move towards that goal because what’s the point?

Pete Mockaitis
And so, can you tell us, maybe, what’s the opposite of hope or how prevalent is hope at work?

Jen Fisher
Well, I don’t think that hope at work is very prevalent, and that was the reasoning and the rationale behind my book. I proffer in my book that I actually believe a lot of what we are seeing and talking about and experiencing in the workplace, when it comes to workplace burnout, is actually an epidemic of hopelessness.

And so, hopelessness exists when you don’t believe that tomorrow can be better than today, when you don’t believe that your actions or what you’re doing matters, or when you don’t believe that you are valued in the workplace. And I think that those are experiences that, unfortunately, a lot of people have, which drive workplace hopelessness.

And I think we often look at that as disengagement, we look at that as burnout, but I actually think that it’s hopelessness. It’s people kind of throwing their hands up, and saying, “Well, nothing I do matters,” or, “Nothing here is ever going to change, so why even try?” And in my experience and my conversations with many, many people, that seems to be the sentiment of what is happening.

And so, I think kind of this opposite, if you will, of hope or hopeful workplaces is workplaces that are hopeless or disengaged or there’s just a lot of people, you know, quiet quitting, pick your favorite buzzword about what’s going on in the workplace today, and I think you can link a lot of that back to people are just kind of feeling hopeless.

And that ties to why I say hope is a strategy because, when I talk to leaders, when I talk to anybody who is trying to effect big change or change at all in the workplace through workplace transformations, leadership changes, strategy changes, all of this constant change that’s going on in the workplace, and they say, “Really, Jen? Like, really, you want me to create a hopeful workplace? You think that hope is a strategy?”

And I say, “Yeah, I do, because good luck with your strategy if nobody believes in it, if nobody gets on board, if nobody thinks that your strategy is going to make tomorrow better than today, then you’re not going to achieve your strategy, because you have to be able to bring people along with you.”

And that’s why I’m not saying hope is the only strategy, but I’m saying that hope is a strategy because people need to feel hopeful about where they are and where they’re going in order to really show up and be engaged and innovate and do all the great things that we want people to do in the workplace, but they’re just not feeling it right now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, if we think about hopelessness then, it sort of sounds like, from that angle or facet, hope seems to be sort of like a set of beliefs. Is that fair to say?

Jen Fisher
Yeah, I think that’s fair to say.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so in that sense, then if hope is a set of beliefs, then that set of beliefs would certainly be bolstered by doing just those things – set the goal, identifying multiple pathways and understanding your capabilities and how those can flow into making that unfold. Very cool. Well, maybe could you give us a story perhaps of someone who wasn’t feeling so hopeful, but they adopted some of these approaches and saw a turnaround?

Jen Fisher
Well, I think that probably the easiest story would be my own story and why hope has become so important to me, part of my leadership ethos, how I lead, but, quite frankly, how I live my life. And so, if you rewind where I was 10, 11 years ago, I was in a state of complete burnout. And this is before we were talking about burnout and well-being in the workplace in the ways that we are now.

And so, I didn’t know what I was experiencing. I knew I was struggling. I worked in a high-performing organization. I looked around, everyone around me seemed to be doing just fine. So I just kept telling myself, “I’m going to push through. This will eventually go away if I just keep pushing harder, pushing harder, pushing harder.”

Well, that never works. It might work for a period of time, but that never works. And so, ultimately, I ended up completely burnt out to the point where I had to take a leave of absence from work. I had to really focus on getting healthy and well, both mentally and physically. And part of that recovery for me, actually, was seeking out professional help, going to therapy.

And through therapy, that is actually where I was first introduced to hope and hope theory and kind of the processes of generating hope in your life.

And so, the therapist had me do hope theory exercises, many of which I now lay out in one of the chapters, I think it’s chapter 10 in my book. And I spent a lot of time doing that and it was really, you know, kind of, “What’s the next step? What’s the next step?”

And I think that’s also kind of the thing about hope is we tend to think that hope is this big thing that, “Oh, if I just have hope, it’s going to change everything.” Well, hope, it’s not really a fireworks-show moment. It happens in those quiet hours, in those quiet moments, by taking one step forward, and then the next step forward, and then the next step forward.

And that’s what I did, you know? It was kind of each of those little steps that built me back from burnout recovery. And then I learned how to really apply those types of strategies not only into my life, but into my leadership and into my work.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I would love it if you could really paint a picture for us, in terms of a scene that’s memorable for you, so we can sort of get a sense for, “Boy, what’s that hopeless Jen look, sound, feel like?” in terms of what you’re doing, what you’re saying to yourself, what you’re experiencing, as opposed to the hope has been restored Jen looking like?

Jen Fisher
So, one of the stories that I tell in the book was really when I was burnt out and kind of the conversation, I talk about it as the conversation that changed everything. And it was a regular check-in conversation with my boss, and I was going down my list, you know, checking things off, giving her all of the updates.

And she put down her pen and paper and looked me straight in the eye and, basically, said to me, “Jen, you’re not okay. And what’s worse is that you’re trying to convince everyone else and yourself that this is what okay looks like.”

And, of course, in that moment, my natural reaction was, “What are you talking about?” you know, the kind of defensiveness, right? And she looked at me and she said, “When was the last time you spent real time with your family without thinking about work?” And I couldn’t give her a good answer.

And then she asked me, “When was the last time you felt joy in your work?” And I couldn’t give her a good answer. And she went on to ask me a handful of additional questions, and I really couldn’t answer any of her questions in that moment or in a way that made me feel good about myself.

And what I will say is she wasn’t judging me. She wasn’t calling me out. She was coming from a place of concern to say, “You’re not okay, and you need to take some time for yourself to get okay.” And as hard as that moment was, perhaps that was the first moment of truth for me. That was the first time that I ever admitted to myself or anyone else that I wasn’t okay, that I was struggling, and that I did need help.

And so, I talk about that as the first moment of hope, because hope requires you to be truthful. It requires you to be honest and to recognize things as they really are. I think a lot of times, when people think about hope being whimsical or wishful thinking, they get that wrong because hope requires you to say like, “Hey, things suck. I’m not okay. I’m in a bad place. What’s going on is horrible.”

Like, recognizing truth and reality of where we really are and then building from there and starting to make that plan, set that goal of, like, “What’s the next step? And what’s the next step?” and create those pathways for yourself.

And so, I would say a hopeful Jen, I mean, there’s tons of stories in the book of just my journey of hope. And I don’t get it always right. I am a person that kind of tends to catastrophize things, and I live with a lot of anxiety.

And one of the things that I talk about in the book, which was really insightful, was a conversation with a friend of mine who knows that I have a lot of anxiety, that I live with anxiety. And she said to me, “This whole hope thing…” she’s like, “…doesn’t that make you more anxious to, like, have so many options, to have multiple pathways?”

And I thought that that was such an insightful question because, typically, people who have a lot of anxiety like concrete things. We like to know the way that it’s going to be so we can stop catastrophizing about all the things that could be. And as I thought about that, I was like, “You know, I think that hope and anxiety are kind of great partners for each other.”

Because what happens to me when I feel stuck or when I’m catastrophizing, I can step back and say kind of like, “What would hope tell me to do?” Well, hope would tell me to understand where I am now, understand how I want to get out of this place, and create those pathways for myself.

And so, instead of staying stuck and staying anxious in a really stuck place, I can identify multiple pathways in which I can get unstuck. And that actually helps my anxiety because it says, “Oh, wait, there’s not just one way and you’re not just stuck here forever. There’s all these other ways in which you can move forward.” So, hopefully, those are kind of helpful illustrations or stories to answer your question.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s great. Thank you. Yes, and, boy, what a blessing to have had that conversation, to have that leader, because I think the vast majority of professionals and humans would not be so direct in terms of, “Oh, you know, I don’t want to be invasive. It’s not really my place. I don’t want to be, you know?” And so, they, “Hey, Jen, you doing okay?” “Yeah.” “Okay. Just checking.” “Well, no, no, no, no, no.” Moving on as opposed to, “Hmm. Well…”

Jen Fisher
Yeah, because it’s uncomfortable.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, totally. So, I’m curious then in the before times, what do you think are some of the indicators she was picking up on that you were not as consciously aware of?

Jen Fisher
I think one of the things that you just pointed out, right, is that this idea of fine, right? Especially in the workplace when they have conversations with you, “How are you doing?” “Fine.” “How’s your workload?” “Fine.” “How are things at, you know, whatever, home?” “Fine.” So, we kind of build this fortress of fine, and that has become acceptable.

And so why is fine acceptable? When somebody says fine to me, and I probably learned this from her in many unspoken ways, but when I get too many fines right in a row from somebody, that is a signal to dig deeper and be like, “Okay, enough with the fine. Like, how are you, really?” And then it kind of shifts to like, “I’m good. I’m good.” “No, no. Like, I want more than one word. Can you give me six words on like how you’re doing?”

So, I think that that’s kind of what she was picking up on, but certainly, if I reflect back, my emotions were all over the place. I was either really, really high and really happy if things were going really well. If I had a bad conversation or a bad experience or a bad interaction with something, with somebody, my emotions were, like, in the toilet, all the way down.

And so, I was very high or I was very low. There was not really kind of in between, if you will. Certainly, my work product suffered, even though I was working longer hours than ever. The problem is that I was working longer hours than ever and that really affected my work product. I was very reactive. I was also very transactional and task-oriented.

I wasn’t interested in building relationships with my colleagues. I was interested in getting the work done and the metrics associated with those, with getting that work done. And that was uncharacteristic of me. And so, I think, she kind of saw a combination of things. But to your point, there’s not a lot of leaders like that, and so I credit so much of who I am today with her ability to really see me and have the compassion to reach out.

And, of course, at the time, you process that in a whole bunch of different ways. You process it as failure, but I look back on it now and it was one of the greatest gifts anyone has ever given to me. And so, I think I tried to emulate and be that leader and be that person for others now.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful, yes. Thank you. Well, let’s dig into some of this hope theory strategy tactic stuff. What do you recommend if folks are listening and they say, “Hmm, I’d like some more hope. That sounds nice”? What are some of the top first things to do?

Jen Fisher
I think the first thing that I recommend people do is do a hope audit, kind of understand where you are when it comes to your own hope. Are you struggling with hope? Are you doing great with hope? How’s your team doing? You can do it at an individual level, a team level, an organizational level.

But I think some of the most, kind of powerful, when I talk to people about hope, ways to assess your own hope, but also what I call hope-killers and hope-builders. And this is really in the language that we use in our lives, but especially in our workplaces and especially as managers of other human beings.

The lessons that I’ve learned is hope-killers are when we say things like, “We want you to bring your ideas. We value innovation. We want to do things differently.” And then somebody brings you an idea and you say something like, “No, that’s not how we do that here. That’s not how we do those things here. We don’t do that.” Or, “We tried that before and it didn’t work.” That’s an automatic.

Those types of things, where you’re shutting someone down, is an automatic hope-killer. What I will say about that is, because my goal is to never make anyone feel bad, that I learned these things the hard way and which is why I’m trying to teach others about it. We say these things as leaders and as managers because we believe that we’re being responsible.

We believe that if we tell somebody, “That’s not how we do it here,” or, “We’ve tried that before and it didn’t work,” that we’re being responsible. We’re being helpful. We’re basically telling them, “Don’t waste your time on that. Like, move on to the next thing, or just do it this way, because we know that it’s going to work and we know it’s acceptable.” You think those are time savers.

That’s kind of the path of least resistance, but it’s really a hope-killer for people because people want to come to work and be creative and come up with new solutions. And most organizations tell them that that’s what they value, but when they do it, then they shut it down.

And so instead, say things like, “Well, we’ve never done it that way. What intrigues you, what interests you, or what excites you about doing it that way?” I think about Ted Lasso, you know, “Be curious, not judgmental,” right?

So have your line of questioning when somebody brings you an idea. Instead of shutting it down, get curious about it, ask them questions. You might still say no, but at least you engaged in the conversation with somebody to understand where they’re coming from.

And that’s what helps us feel like we matter and that we are valued by somebody, not that we execute on every single idea that somebody has, but that we listen to them and that we see them. And that’s what actually creates and builds hope in the workplace.

And that kind of behavior, through the language and the way that we communicate with each other, is incredibly contagious when it comes to workplace culture.

Pete Mockaitis
The language, it is contagious in both directions.

Jen Fisher
In both directions, very negative and positive. Absolutely. Probably negative is more contagious, which is why it’s so dangerous, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, there’s a top tip right there, say, “Don’t use hope-killing language.” Do you have some superior alternatives for if someone is mentioning something and you really do have some insight that was tried before and it didn’t go well? I imagine you want to share that information and not withhold it, but you also don’t want to kill the enthusiasm. So, any pro tips for communicating that?

Jen Fisher
There’s nothing wrong with saying, “Hey, we tried something similar and it didn’t work out, but I want to hear from you. Like, what’s your approach? What do you think is different this time? What, in your mind, would make this work?”

And so, that opens up the dialogue for them to share with you what they’re thinking. And then you can have a conversation about it, right? Then you can share your own insight of, “When we did do this before and it didn’t work.” And then you might learn something from them. Maybe they aren’t proposing that you do it the exact same way that you did it before. Maybe it just looks like that on the surface.

And if you immediately shut it down and say, “Oh, we’ve done that before,” and move on, then you miss the opportunity to dig a little bit deeper. And I’m not talking about spending four hours, right? This is a 10-, 12-, 15-minute conversation with somebody that just is like, “Tell me a little bit more about why you think that that’s going to work,” or, “What excites you about this idea?” or, “Let’s dig a little bit deeper,” so that you can understand where they’re coming from.

And you can also share insight of like, “Hey, we did something similar. This is how we went about it. This is why it didn’t work, and this is why it didn’t work. What do you think? Why do you think that your approach is different?”

And so, it’s not about, like I said, it’s not about letting everybody come up with all kinds of ideas and just start running with all of them. But it’s more about, “How do you make somebody feel seen and valued in the workplace?” Because those are the top things, you know, feeling like you don’t matter in the workplace or in life, that is the biggest hope-killer of all, right?

Like, not mattering to somebody or not mattering to where you work, people start to disengage. And so, it’s really about seeing somebody and just having a quick conversation to understand where they’re coming from. It’s not always about, “Oh, we’re going to move forward with this idea even though I think it’s a bad one.”

Pete Mockaitis
Very good. Okay. Well, I’d also love to hear some of the other winning bits from this toolkit.

Jen Fisher
I think, something that I like to do, I call hope spotting, right? And so, there’s a lot of negativity in our world. There’s a lot of negativity in our workplaces.

And so, opening up team meetings or starting your own day as an individual, or ending your day as an individual, and actually spotting and calling out and acknowledging instances of hope-building, you know, talking about something that you thought wasn’t going to go well, but it actually went better than you thought.

Like, really identifying the times in your day or in your week where things went well, because we don’t do that. We tend to dwell on what went wrong, who pissed us off, what we didn’t do right, what we didn’t get done. And I’m not saying that you shouldn’t, you know, like there are lessons to be learned by mistakes that we’ve made or interactions that we’ve had that didn’t go as well as we wanted it to.

But we spend a lot more time on those things and we beat ourselves up. And so, really carving out a couple of minutes at the end of each day or in the morning, reflecting on the day before, or as you open a meeting, and allow people to spot hope, to say like, “Hey, this happened, and I thought it was great,” or, “I saw Bob showing the new person how to do X, Y, and Z, and that made me feel really good.”

We tend to kind of gloss over those things and we don’t call them out and we don’t acknowledge them. And so, I think that that’s a really important practice that can help people feel hopeful and have positive emotions in the workplace and feel like they’re valued.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and I like that a lot in terms of, and that feels distinctly different than, say, a gratitude practice, counting your blessings, like, “Oh, I’ve got a great family. I’ve got a house, you know. I’ve got heat. I’ve got a cozy bed. I’ve got socks that feel great.” Sure. I mean, because we can do those things and those are good and special and shifting the spotlight onto them can be beneficial.

But when you really zero in on, “It went better than you thought it would,” it highlights that same zone of risk and uncertainty where so much of our lives are in these days. It highlights that. And it’s a powerful reminder that, “Yeah, it happens frequently that things work out better than you thought they would.”

So, thusly, perhaps as we’re assessing the probabilities or what’s likely to go down with the next thing, we may just be a bit more balanced in assessing the prognosis of stuff.

Jen Fisher
I love how you summarize that. I think that that was perfect. And that’s why I think hope is a practice, too, right? Because once you start to practice that, that becomes, I wouldn’t say your natural default. Maybe for some people. It’s still not my natural default, but it’s easier for me, right?

Like, I will catch myself going down the path of being like, “Oh, man, I can’t believe I said that,” or, “Oh, that was a really dumb answer.” And when I start to have that negative talk for myself, I’m like, “Wait a minute, what about all the things in the meeting, or the presentation, or the keynote, or the whatever, that went right?”

And so, I start to catch myself more quickly and I don’t follow the negative. And that’s not to say that we don’t screw up. We all screw up, right? Like, yeah, you’re going to say something stupid, you’re going to forget a line, you’re going to make a mistake, whatever it is that your role is, right?

It’s not to say, like those things don’t happen and those things don’t exist. But how do you balance the learning from making mistakes with also recognizing that there’s a lot right that you and others do in the world and calling that out?

Another thing that I really like to do, especially when I’m feeling stuck or, like, when my team is feeling stuck, is talk about possibilities, you know, and kind of do exercises around possibility thinking, right? And so, if I feel really stuck, if I have a problem and I can’t get out of it, or I’m just ruminating on it, asking myself the question of like, “Well, what’s possible here?”

Like, you know, this is kind of that pathways thinking of like, “Where could I go from here? I’m feeling stuck. I don’t want to stay stuck here. So, what are the possibilities here? Like, is this a dead end?” And if it is, kind of accepting that and moving on.

“But if I’m not truly stuck, what are the possibilities and what are the ways in which I can move forward?” And so, that’s kind of a question that I ask myself of like, “Okay, I’m feeling stuck. What are the possibilities here?” And that is a way to generate hope.

Another way, the best way perhaps to cultivate hope is with other people. Hope grows in community. Like many things, hope definitely grows in community, and surrounding yourself with people that support you, and also will hold you accountable when you need to be held accountable is one of the best ways that hope can grow.

And so, when I think about that inside of organizational life, obviously, the best place for that is on your team. But if there’s not people on your team, do you have a friend or two in the organization that you can connect regularly with, because connection is incredibly important for hope?

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, Jen, tell me anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about a few of your favorite things?

Jen Fisher
No, let’s do it. Like, I’ve talked a lot, but that’s the point, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Indeed, yeah. Can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jen Fisher
So, the cover of my book is a butterfly, and that’s a special symbolism to me, but it’s the perfect symbolism for hope. And so, one of my favorite quotes, “If nothing ever changed, there would be no butterflies.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite book?

Jen Fisher
I would say Dr. Edith Egers’ book called The Choice.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that seems to really connect and resonate with folks, they quote it back to you often?

Jen Fisher
I think one that’s coming up lately is a nugget of we would never put somebody in charge of operations or technology or finance that didn’t have operations, technology, or finance experience, but we continue to put people in charge of humans without any intelligence or knowledge or skill on wellbeing and hope.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jen Fisher
The best place to connect with me is on LinkedIn, but my website is www.Jen-Fisher.com. I also have a Substack newsletter called “Thoughts on Being Well.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jen Fisher
Make hope your strategy or, at least, make hope part of your strategy.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jen, thank you.

Jen Fisher
Thank you.

Jan 26
0

1123: How to Move Past Setbacks through the Next Play Mindset with Alan Stein, Jr.

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Alan Stein, Jr. shares how elite performers bounce back and how you can do the same.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to take back control over your emotions and actions
  2. How to practice self-compassion without lowering your standards
  3. How to anticipate obstacles without becoming paranoid

About Alan 

Alan Stein, Jr. is an experienced keynote speaker and author. At his core, he’s a performance coach with a passion for helping business leaders change behaviors. He spent 15+ years working with the highest performing basketball players on the planet (including NBA superstars Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, and Kobe Bryant). Through his customized programs, he transfers his unique expertise to maximize both individual and organizational performance. 

Alan is a dynamic storyteller who delivers practical, actionable lessons that can be implemented immediately. He teaches proven principles on how to utilize the same approaches in business that elite athletes use to perform at a world-class level.

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Alan Stein Jr. Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Alan, welcome back!

Alan Stein, Jr.
So great to be with you, my friend.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to be chatting. You’ve got some goodies for us in your book, Next Play. And I understand that this idea came from a book to you long, long ago. Tell us about that.

Alan Stein, Jr.
Yeah. In the year 2000, I remember it vividly, I had just graduated from college and I read Coach K’s first book, Coach K, the Hall of Fame, legendary, iconic former men’s basketball coach at Duke University. He was the one that actually coined the term “next play.” Although, I think even with his admission, this concept of focusing on the present moment is rooted in stoicism, which has been around for, obviously, thousands of years, but Coach K is the first that I had ever heard coined the actual term “next play.”

And Next Play, if I was going to summarize, it would be a framework for stop worrying about what just happened and learn to focus on what’s right in front of you. Stop worrying about what you wished happened and focus on the reality of what actually happened, and to stop worrying about what was and focus on what is.

And he really designed it as a way for his players to not worry about the missed shot or the turnover or the referee’s missed call, but to dial into the exact next play of the game and let go of the previous one. And what I find interesting is when I read that book in 2000, I, conceptually, understood the concept of next play. I mean, it’s pretty straightforward and logically it made sense to me.

But, truthfully, Pete, I didn’t have the emotional maturity at the time to actually integrate it into my life. At that time in my life, I still allowed myself to get emotionally hijacked by some of the most trivial annoyances and inconveniences that we all experience in life. I would find something to the akin of the Wi-Fi cutting out or a barista messing up my order. And that put me in kind of a downward spiral, in a bad mood, you know, for sometimes hours.

So, it wasn’t until maybe 10 years after reading the book that I was able to actually start adopting it and implementing it in my life and really saw the power of how focusing on the next play is such a game changer.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s pretty juicy, Alan. So, I hear you that, yes, this is an idea that, Alan, makes good sense. Okay. Well, we’ll all nod our heads and say that sounds like a wise, proper prudent thing to do. And yet, actually executing it took some time for you to pull off. So, tell me, were there any groundbreaking insights, distinctions, nuances, breakthroughs that helped you actually put it into practice?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, what really put it into practice was, 10 years after reading it for the first time, I started working at a high school here in the Washington, DC area, which is where I live, DeMatha Catholic High School, which is a really renowned school for high school basketball, one of the top programs in the country. And their coach at the time was a gentleman named Mike Jones.

And Coach Jones actually put “next play” into practice with everything we did at DeMatha. I mean, he did it with the players. He did it with the coaches. He talked about it on the court. He talked about it off the court. He talked about it with the small things. He talked about it with the big things. I mean, it was really woven into the fabric of the DeMatha basketball culture that we always focus on the “next play.”

And he even had this hand gesture, almost as if he was flipping a page or flipping the script and say, “All right, we’re on to the next play. That play is over. We’re on to the next one.” And it was, I guess, through pure immersion of watching him implement it every single day with our program that I started to implement it in my life.

And it took a little bit of time. It’s one of these things that it’s really hard to just change the snap of a finger, but as I started to implement it in my life and as I witnessed the DeMatha program utilizing it, again, I could kind of see the power and the reframing tool. And then like anything else, just the pure repetition, the more I started to use it, the better I got at actually implementing it.

And here, you know, 26 years after reading about it for the first time, I’m slowly getting a pretty good grip on my ability to move to the next play. And with most of the things that I preach and teach, both on stage and on page, I’m not coming from a place of mastery. I won’t sit here and look at the camera and tell you that I always immediately move to the next play.

But what I will say is I do so more frequently and more often than I have at any other previous time in my life. And I’m able to do it in both the short term and the micro, and I’m able to zoom out and do it in the macro with the bigger transitions that we experience in life. And as I said, it’s just been so profound for me personally.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s intriguing. And this reminds me of a recent guest we had, Shirzad Chamine, who used to run CTI, the Coaching Training Institute, and he’s got a great program called Positive Intelligence. And he makes the point a few times, which seems striking, that he says to linger in a negative emotion for more than one second is sort of unnecessary, problematic, kind of undue suffering that limits our effectiveness, which is just striking, one second. Wow, that’s quick.

But that’s a kind of a similar notion, in terms of rather than a barista messes up your order, you go into an emotional spiral of yuckiness for hours to just say, “Okay, that happened and that was a bummer. Maybe, what can I learn from it? What’s my takeaway? What’s my action? What’s my response?” And, it’s sort of, you know, rock and roll, move on.

I’d say it does seem easier said than done at times. And I actually really liked what you had to say about the physical gesture of flipping a page because I’ve felt that in a couple of my emotional state worlds of gestures, like, “Oh, I’m grounding my feet firmly on the floor. I’m feeling my toes. Okay. All right. I’m sort of cleared up.”

Or, let’s say someone says, “Let’s take a step back,” I’ll actually physically move my whole shoulders and neck back, it’s like, “Yeah, you’re right. I was looking way close at this thing, and I’m going to take a bigger picture perspective,” and that gesture actually is sort of associated and attached with that. Or, I think of sometimes, like, literally shaking it off, like a dog shaking water all off of his body is beneficial.

So, I think some of this physical stuff, for me, is a handy tip to actually executing this. I’d love your thoughts on that and more tips and tactics for actually pulling it off.

Alan Stein, Jr.
The physical and the psychological are intertwined. It’s hard to compartmentalize and separate the two. Our thoughts drive our emotions and our emotions drive how we feel, and those feelings actually resonate and show up in our bodies. And I actually use the same one you just mentioned about feeling my toes and keeping my feet grounded on the floor, as well as the one that I just gestured, which is the next play.

So, I think having any type of physical anchor to connect to these mantras and frameworks is a very helpful reinforcement tool, in general. And you said something else there, really the heart of next play is how you process and how you choose to respond to everything that’s going on in the world around you. Really, next play is not only a tool to help you focus on the present moment.

It’s a tool to make sure that instead of reacting emotionally or reacting impulsively with some of our most primal feelings, instead, we decide to respond thoughtfully and respond purposefully. And that’s the whole point of next play, is that you don’t control the event or circumstance that just occurred, but you always control your response to it.

And I want to encourage others and invite them on the same journey I’m on, which is to do less impulsive reacting and do more thoughtful responding. And where this is most helpful is when things in our lives don’t go our way, when our preferences aren’t met, when things don’t happen the way that we wish they’d happen.

Well, how do you respond then? How do you behave then? Because I’m a big believer, not only will you improve your performance and productivity when you learn to bounce back quickly when things don’t go your way, but I know from firsthand experience, you’ll actually improve your enjoyment and fulfillment in life when you don’t let those negative thoughts linger and you quickly move on to the next play.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. Well, so can you give us some extra perspectives on how to do less impulsive reacting and more thoughtful responding?

Alan Stein, Jr.
The most important part, and this is the part that I struggled with the most, especially when I told you when I first read about the concept, this is the part that got me stuck, is you have to learn how to slow down. You have to learn how to take a breath, take a beat, take a pause, especially when something doesn’t happen the way that you want.

Because it’s in that space, between the stimulus and now your response, that you get to architect and determine how you are going to respond. When we don’t allow for that space or we don’t take any time, then our primal emotions just take over and we’ll react impulsively.

For me, personally, regardless of what the situation is, I’ve noticed that I still have the same thoughts and visceral feelings and physiological responses to when things don’t go my way. I just don’t allow them to drive the car. I don’t allow them to dictate my behavior.

So, a perfect example, I mean, if I’m sitting in traffic or somebody cuts me off, I still feel the primal urge to get angry, to want to honk my horn, or maybe give someone the finger. I’ve just learned to take a beat between actually doing that, and then thinking, “What would be a more appropriate response? What is a response that is more in alignment with the man that I’m trying to become? What is a response that I would want my kids to see me behave as and be more proud of?”

So, for me, it’s all about taking that split second to gather yourself, compose yourself, have some poise, and then be thoughtful about your next play. I want everyone to be less reactive and more responsive. And if you do so, it will help you in your relationship. It will help you in your output and performance and productivity at work.

And, like I said, it will help you just live a more enjoyable, fulfilling life because now you’re no longer allowing what the world does to dictate your mood and to dictate how you feel and dictate your behavior. We’re much more thoughtful in our responses.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I like that a lot. And so, within that slow down, pause, gap moment, you inserted a question, and I think that was lovely in terms of like, “What would be a response that I would like for my children to do?”

And so, I think that’s huge in terms of reorienting where the pathway your brain is naturally going down, it’s like, “Oh, what an idiot. What’s his problem? Hey, does he not see? Does he not care that there was a danger in lives on the road? This jerk, whatever.” It’s like your brain can just go, one thought leads to the next, to the next, to the next.

But when you can ask that question, you’re really redirecting where that is headed in a powerful way. So, I’d love to hear any of your other favorite questions in that mix there.

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, just so you know, those things that you just said there, and I know you were saying them a little bit in jest, but those are the exact same things I think when someone cuts me off. But as I said, the most important part about next play, and the most important part about our ability to regulate our emotions is separating how we feel and what we think from how we behave and how we respond.

So, I still think those things and that’s still my primal reaction. I just don’t allow that to overdrive and take over and dictate how I behave. So, that pause is where I can insert that question. And the funny part is, it may feel like you’re pausing for an eternity, but it’s usually only a second or two. It’s a couple of heartbeats. It’s really not that big a deal.

No one is saying that when someone cuts you off in traffic that you have to sit there and meditate for the next 20 minutes to think of a thoughtful response. All I want you to do is to feel your feet on the ground and have the awareness in the moment to say, “Hey, I can’t control that that person cut me off, but I can absolutely control how I respond to it. And I want to start choosing thoughtful responses.”

And I find that when we do that, we also start becoming kinder, more empathetic, compassionate people because, as you also just alluded to in your example, when you take a moment to pause then other questions come to mind, like, “What’s going on in this person’s life? Where are they going where they’re in such a hurry that they’re going to be a danger on the road?”

And then it’s a reminder to me that I don’t know anything going on in anyone else’s life at any given moment, especially a stranger in another vehicle. Maybe they have an emergency they’re trying to get to. Maybe they’ve got a sick child in the back of their car. You don’t know. And once again, reframing that allows more compassion and kindness and empathy to enter my heart, which means I’ll have softer, more appropriate responses.

But back to your original question of some other questions we can ask. I try not to label the questions or thoughts or feelings I have as good or bad, or as right or wrong, because it’s completely subjective and it’s completely contextual. What I try to do is I just ask myself, “Is this helpful? Is this a helpful question to ask?”

And my definition of helpful is whether or not it’s increasing my power or is it giving my power away? So, lots of times when things don’t go my way, my initial visceral reaction is to think, “Well, why is this happening to me? This isn’t fair. This sucks.” And once again, that means now I’m a victim of circumstance and environment.

Instead, since those questions are not very helpful questions, when things don’t go my way, I’ve trained myself to ask more helpful questions, like, “What can I learn from this? What can I gain from this? Even though things didn’t turn out the way I’d hoped, what is the next play that can actually help move me forward? How can I use this to actually learn something or make me better?”

Those are much more helpful, empowering questions and they put me back in the hypothetical driver’s seat because now I’m in control. Like I said at the very beginning, I don’t control events and circumstances. I always control my response, and that’s where our power comes from is in the response.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Alan, this is so good in terms of the, me, me, me focus. I mean, you mentioned sick child, and this brings me back to a story. This, literally, happened to me. I was in Chicago, I think it was after a date, just hanging out, chit chatting in the car. And then we see someone “parking” in what was totally not a parking space.

And so, it’s just kind of like in the middle of things, and we’re like, “What are you doing? That’s not a parking space. Can’t you see there’s no lights? What’s up with this guy?” So, we were like running our mouths about this, and then they very quickly hustled, while picking up a child from the back seat, and then went at a quick pace into the nearby building, which was a children’s clinic, and we were just that oblivious.

And so, I mean, you used that as an example, and it’s not just sort of like an extreme thought exercise, but like, “No, literally, that happened.” And we both felt so ashamed, like, “Oh, geez, we’re terrible people. They genuinely have a sick child at the children’s hospital, and we’re just mocking their parking job. Okay. Well, I hope they’re doing okay.”

Alan Stein, Jr.
Absolutely. Well, I sure appreciate you sharing that and that hopefully has stuck with you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah!

Alan Stein, Jr.
I’ll give you two rather recent examples for me. Now, one, you’re privy to and your audience isn’t, and I certainly don’t say this to make anyone feel awkward, but as you know, my mom passed away two weeks ago, and my father was married to her for 52 years. I mean, that was his person. So obviously, he’s going through some hard times right now, trying to adjust to his next new play in life, which is, “How do I exist without the person that’s been my sidekick for 52 years?”

And the reason I say that is, for that first week in particular, I mean, my dad was an equal combination of devastated and overwhelmed. I mean, I can’t imagine what was actually going through his mind. And if he was navigating the world and maybe was driving and didn’t put his blinker on, he was driving a little bit slow, or was taking longer to order something when he got up to the front of a restaurant, I can understand why people behind him would be really impatient.

Like, “Hey, this old guy is in my way. Come on, Gramps, let’s go.” And yet, if they knew that a week prior to that, he had lost his person of 52 years, my guess is they’d be a little more patient. They’d have a little more tolerance and a little more understanding. And the reason I bring that up is we should all navigate the world as if those things are happening.

Another example, on a slightly more positive note, I have twin sons that are turning 16 in March, so they’re doing their driver’s ed right now, and I take them practice driving. And when I take them to practice driving, I mean, they’re brand-new drivers. They drive a little slow. They’re a little awkward with the blinker. Sometimes they can’t remember who has the right-of-way.

And we were at an intersection the other day and cars behind us were honking because my son should have taken the left but he was so nervous because there was another car coming. And same thing, I have a feeling, if the car behind us honking knew that there was an almost 16-year-old learning to drive for the first time, they’d be more patient, they’d be more tolerant, and they’d have a little bit more empathy.

And I use both of those as examples because I’m also the person that gets frustrated when there’s an old person in my way or a young person that doesn’t know how to drive. And it’s really helped me soften my responses because I just picture my dad or I picture my sons when I’m in something that is making me feel impatient, and just a reminder that most people are doing the best they can with the tools they have. And as human beings, we should be compassionate to that.

And I have to remind myself that, in that moment, I might be the one that’s being frustrated, but there’s other moments where I’m the one causing someone else’s frustration because we’re all fallible as human beings and sometimes we’re not at our best selves. So, the more patient and tolerant and accepting we can be, I just think we’ll live more fulfilling lives and we’ll create stronger and forge more connected relationships.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I like that so much in terms of, like, living as though that were the case, which reminds me of, which we’ll link to the show notes, there’s a nine-minute YouTube video, which took audio from a David Foster Wallace commencement speech, “This Is Water,” discussing this very concept that we’re so wrapped up in our stuff that we don’t stop, pause, think about the other context there. And sometimes it really is true. And even if it’s not, living that way is handy.

But while we’re talking about generosity or kindness, your chapter three is entitled, “Tell Yourself How Great You Are.” Why is that useful, Alan?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, I think the most important conversations we ever have in our lives are the ones we have with ourselves. It’s the little voice in our head. And if anyone watching or listening right now is thinking, “I don’t have a little voice in my head,” well, who do you think just said that to you? Like, we all have the inner voice and the inner monologue.

And I really want to encourage folks, while we’re on this kick of compassion and tolerance and empathy, to learn how to start talking to ourselves in a more kind and compassionate way. I do a lot of work with really high performers.

And it’s been my first-hand experience, as well as the experience of working with these folks, that many times, high performers can be very critical of themselves, can be very judgmental of themselves.

And when they don’t perform to the level that they believe they’re capable of, they actually start to beat themselves up, figuratively speaking, of course. And I want folks to start learning to talk to themselves with the same compassion and kindness that you would talk to a loved one, or that you would talk to a child, or that you would really talk to anyone else.

You and I are friends, Pete. If you called me up after a really hard day, things didn’t go well, you had a couple of podcast interviews, and you had some tech issues, and one of the guests didn’t show up the way that you had hoped, and it was just kind of a tough day for you, as your friend, the last thing I would do in that moment is to be critical of you, is to make certain assumptions and be judgmental and beat you up and make you feel worse.

As your friend, I would want to create a safe space where I could just say, “Hey, man, I’m sorry that today didn’t go well. I know what that feels like. It doesn’t feel good, but just know, man, I believe in you and I know how good your show is, and how good of an interviewer you are. And maybe today didn’t quite live up to your standard, but I know you’ll be better next time because I believe in you.”

Like, that would be the general sentiment in which I would approach you as a friend. So why wouldn’t I talk to myself with that same type of kindness when I fall short? And just to be clear, I believe in holding myself and those I care about to really, really high standards.

None of this is about letting someone off the hook for low performance or for a casual attitude, but it’s about giving ourselves some grace whenever we fall short of expectation because we have to remember we are human beings, we are fallible, we are flawed, and nobody goes through life making all straight A’s. Like, occasionally, we’re going to mess up.

And when we mess up, how we talk to ourselves will dictate our next play. And that next play will dictate how we bounce back and what future performance will look like.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, I’d also love your thoughts in chapter 28, you’ve got “Anticipate Obstacles.” And I’m thinking it’s an interesting game in terms of, thinking about what can go wrong can be helpful in terms of preparation, but it could also be not so helpful in terms of, “Ahh, let’s forget it, it’s too much. I don’t want to deal with all that, or it’s probably never going to work out.” So how do you think about running your brain with this tension?

Alan Stein, Jr.
I don’t ever want folks to be paranoid, but I always want them to be prepared. And there is a difference between the two, obviously. And where I first started thinking this concept was, when I was in the basketball training space and working with elite-level players, I found it kind of comical how many times a player would drive to the basket and get fouled, and that they would get so upset and been out of shape over the defense fouling them.

And I would remind them, like, “Hey, that’s the defense’s job. You do realize the guys in the other color jerseys are trying to keep you from scoring. And when they do that, occasionally, they’re going to hit your arm or foul you. So instead of being surprised that a defender fouls you, why don’t you just assume they’re going to foul you when you go to the basket?”

“Kind of like, you know, hopefully you never have to hear a pilot say this, but if they would say, ‘Brace for impact,’ it’s the same thing like brace for contact when you’re driving to the basket and expect that somebody’s going to hit you. And if they don’t be very pleasantly surprised that you can get to the basket uninterrupted, but don’t be surprised by the contact.”

And for me, I use it in my life in several different ways. As a professional keynote speaker, I have contingency plans for a whole handful of things that potentially could happen during my talk. It could be something like someone in the front row keeps yelling things out, or one of the waiters drops a glass and it shatters in the middle of my talk, the AV goes out and I can’t use the PowerPoint anymore, the microphone doesn’t work.

Like, things that I’m not saying there’s a high likelihood they’ll happen, but there’s a decent chance they’ll happen, and I don’t want to be caught off guard when those things do occur. So, I try to proactively have contingency plans for if they happen, here’s how I’ll handle it.

And of course, if something tangential happens, so maybe they don’t drop a glass but something else is disturbing, maybe somebody’s phone goes off, then I feel more at ease because I’ve prepared for these different scenarios and I’ve imagined them in my mind before they’ve occurred, so when they actually happen in real life, it’s a more seamless transition to move to that next play.

Now I’m not on stage going, “Oh, gosh, I sure hope no one’s phone rings,” “Oh, man, I sure hope no one drops a glass,” I’m not even registering that, I’m not even thinking about it, but if that happens, I will be ready.

And that’s all that I encourage folks to do is to be proactive and giving some thought to some obstacles that may come your way, personally or professionally, and then just have an idea of what your next play will be if they do occur.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s a good feeling, just that confidence that comes from that level of preparation. One of my favorite stunts to pull when I was doing more keynote speeches was, if you’d hear a little bit of an extra hiss in terms of the microphone situation, I just loved saying to the client and the AV tech people, it’s like, “I think there’s a mismatch between the impedance of the source and the line here. I have a microphone impedance matching transformer with me in my bag, which will probably fix that hiss.” They’re like, “Oh, my gosh, we’re dealing with a pro.”

Alan Stein, Jr.
Absolutely. Love that. We can never be too proactive in thinking about those things. And the other way that we use this, the proactivity portion is, most people apply the next play in the moment. As I said, it’s the basketball player who turns the ball over and misses the shot, next play. It’s when the Wi-Fi cuts out, or the barista messes up your order, or somebody cuts you off in traffic, next play.

But where I also want folks to use it is when you zoom back out and you think of the big transitions in life that most of us will go through, and you start proactively thinking, “How am I going to handle this next play when circumstances change?” I’ll use the same two examples from before.

So, my mother passed recently, my dad is not in the best of health, and I say that with a heavy heart. I don’t know how much more time I have with him, hopefully, plenty of more years, but we know that that’s not guaranteed.

But, at some point in the near future, I’m going to go through a transition of having spent the majority of my life with two very engaged, active, loving parents, to then stepping into living my life in a next play when both of my parents are deceased. And who am I going to be and what am I going to do when I step into that new version?

On the same other side, I mentioned I’ve got twin boys that are almost 16. I also have a daughter that’s almost 14. In the blink of an eye, my three kids will graduate from high school and move on to whatever they choose to do post high school. And I’ll be affectionately known as an empty nester. Well, what is my next play going to be when I no longer identify with having children at home? Like, who am I going to be and what am I going to be in that next play?

And there are so many next plays that many of us go through, whether it’s marriage or divorce, or when you’re running your business. Well, what if you get sued? What if you go bankrupt? What if you have to make layoffs? Conversely, what if your business starts growing at an exponential rate and you have to hire a whole bunch of more people right away? How do you maintain your culture when you’re trying to scale very quickly?

Like, all of these could be potential next plays, and I don’t want them to monopolize or paralyze us as we think about them, but I do want us to give some thought to proactively deciding, “How am I going to deal with these circumstances changing if and when they do because there’s a very good likelihood they will?” And that’s where the proactivity and the preparedness comes into play.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And whenever we’re chatting, I’d love to hear some tales of you and super pro famous athletes, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, etc. Any memorable stories, moments, experiences from some of the greats that help illustrate some of this stuff?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Sure. Well, I mean, the most memorable one, it’s usually the opening story I give in my keynotes, was meeting Kobe Bryant for the first time in 2007.

And for context, for any of your viewers or listeners that don’t follow basketball as closely as I do, most would agree that in 2007, Kobe was the best player on the planet. And I remember as a young coach at that time watching one of his early morning private workouts and being really surprised at how basic the drills were. He was drilling down on fundamentals that I had done with middle school age players.

Now he was doing them with an unparalleled level of focus and detail and precision and effort, but the actual drills he was doing were very basic. And when I asked him later that day at camp, why a player at his level, the best player in the world would focus on doing such basic drills, he said something that, fundamentally, changed my life forever. He said, “Why do you think I’m the best player in the world? Because I never get bored with the basics.”

That teaching moment, I mean, literally, the hairs on my neck still stand up when I tell that story and it’s been almost 20 years, that the best of the best never get bored with the basics. They have a strong respect and appreciation for the fundamentals, and they try to simplify success, like the sign above my head, that they try to untether from the unnecessarily complex and they just drill down on mastery of the basics.

And that’s really been the foundation to everything I believe and everything I preach and teach on page and on stage is working towards mastery of the basics, and Next Play is a pillar, is an offshoot of that, is a component of, “What is a basic framework we can use to be more thoughtful in our responses and stay dialed into the present moment?” And that’s what it is for me. It’s this whole concept of next play.

And, you know, next play, I mean, I’ve seen, certainly, athletes use it with tremendous results, but I’m now seeing folks in the business world be able to use it as well with equally great success. And I can tell you now, any organization that can develop a next play mentality with their team is going to be at a massive advantage over their competition.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, Alan, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Alan Stein, Jr.
No, man, this has been fun. I always love connecting with you. You always spur such great thoughts and ask such great questions, man.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. Well, now can we hear about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Funny enough, I was actually watching, like, a reality show on Netflix about real estate. It was called “Owning Manhattan” with Ryan Serhant. And one of the members of his team said, “If you’re not changing it, you’re choosing it.” So that’s a relatively new quote and it just hit me really hard when I heard it.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Alan Stein, Jr.
Well, one that I found while doing this book that I thought was really interesting was that the average visceral emotion that we feel only lasts about 90 seconds. If you just let it run through you, and if you just accept it, you’re only going to be frustrated, irritated, angry, upset for about 90 seconds, if you just take that breath and just say, “Hey, I’m feeling frustrated right now.”

The problem most people have is they keep throwing logs on the fire and coal on the fire, and they keep starting that stopwatch over because of the self-narrative and the additional internal dialogue they have when that happens.

So, the barista messes up your order and you feel frustrated, and then you start saying things to yourself like, “Man, this is ridiculous. This guy never pays attention. He’s always messing up my order.” Well, the clock just started over again. “Man, this isn’t fair. I can’t believe this is happening to me. I’m late for a meeting, and now I got to wait for another coffee to be made,” clock starts over again.

And that’s why some people can experience someone cutting them off in traffic in the morning, or the Starbucks barista messing up your order, and they stay in that spiral for hours because they keep starting the clock over through the unhelpful self-narrative.

So, to me, it’s so important just to say, “Hey, I’m a little frustrated that they messed up my order at Starbucks. I’m allowed to be frustrated. That’s okay. But I’m not going to allow it to dictate how I behave or how I show up. And I’m certainly not going to be rude to the barista. These things happen.” And by the time I finished that sentence, it’s been about 90 seconds and I just move on with my day.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And could you share a favorite book?

Alan Stein, Jr.
One of the go-to resources, well, I’ll give two. One is the book I mentioned at the very beginning of this called Leading with the Heart, which is Coach K’s first book, where I heard about next play for the first time.

Another book that I recommend very highly is by my good friend, Phil Jones, a fellow speaker. And he wrote a book called Exactly What to Say. And it’s a shorter book, it’s almost more of a handbook and a guide than it is an actual book, but, really, Phil’s whole tagline is, “When you change your words, you change your world.”

And he talks about the power of language and then how certain phrases and statements and questions we can ask, can actually help us get a better response from the people we’re trying to connect with. So, anyone that’s in a leadership position or in a sales position, highly recommend Leading with the Heart by Coach K, and Exactly What to Say by Phil Jones.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Alan Stein, Jr.
I’m a real stickler for my morning routines. My morning routine, how I spend the first 60 minutes after I wake up, really primes me for the rest of the day and has a massive influence on what type of day I’m going to have, so I’m very protective of the first 60 minutes of my day.

And within the first 60 minutes, I do the very best I can to not check email and not check social media. I do check text messages just in case there was an emergency or a fire that needs to be put out. But I try not to check my inbox or check social media.

I try to do something that engages my physical body, whether it’s some light stretching or playing pickup basketball or lifting weights or going for a walk. And then, at the same time, I try to do something that gets me mentally or emotionally engaged as well. So read, watch, or listen to something that’s either educational or inspiring.

And if I can check those three boxes within the first 30 to 40 minutes of waking up, it usually sets a pretty nice foundation for how the rest of the day will go.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Alan Stein, Jr.
They can just go to my website, which is just AlanSteinJr.com. That’s kind of the central hub for everything that we have going on. And you can also find me on social media at @alansteinjr. on Instagram and LinkedIn and all of the major platforms. I take a tremendous amount of pride in being both accessible and responsive.

So, if someone enjoyed this conversation that we’ve had, and I hope that they have, and they want to share something or ask something, just shoot me a DM on Instagram or LinkedIn. I’m very good about getting back.

And if you have any interest in bringing me in to speak to your team or school or organization. You can find all the information on my programs at AlanSteinJr.com. And then, of course, you can grab “Next Play” on Amazon or Audible or wherever you get your books and audio books.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Alan Stein, Jr.
See if you can adopt this next play mentality. See if you can, at the very start, just put an insert, that pause or that breath or that beat, after you feel the visceral emotion to react, and just take a second so that you can be thoughtful in your response.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Alan, thank you.

Alan Stein, Jr.
My pleasure. This was a lot of fun. Thank you, Pete.

Jan 15
0

1120: How to Stop Living on Autopilot and Choose What Matters Most with Erin Coupe

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Erin Coupe discusses how to redirect your attention from the energy wasters to the things that matter to you.

You’ll Learn

  1. How to stop getting in your own way
  2. The trick to quieting your negative inner voice
  3. Two rituals to keep you in control of your day

About Erin 

Erin Coupe is a speaker, executive partner, and founder of I Can Fit That In, a movement helping high-achievers shift from imminent burnout to fulfillment through intentional living and self-leadership. After nearly two decades in global corporate roles, Erin embarked on a personal transformation that led her to integrate neuroscience, energy work, and spirituality into business and life. Today, she empowers leading professionals to trade autopilot for alignment, and design lives that feel as good on the inside as they look on the outside. Her work challenges hustle culture with a grounded, soulful framework for sustainable success and well-being.

Resources Mentioned

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Erin Coupe Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Erin, welcome!

Erin Coupe
Thank you, Pete. It’s great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it is great to be chatting with you and I’d love to hear, for starters, so founding, I Can Fit That In and writing a book, I Can Fit That In, could you share with us a surprising discovery you’ve made about us humans while walking this adventure?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, I’ve made it about myself, first and foremost, and then with clients. We get in our own way. We have a lot of limitations in our minds by the way of thoughts we have repetitively, which become beliefs. And left unchecked, those do not serve us. Go figure. And in the long run, when we do start to check those thoughts and really reframe those beliefs, we can achieve so much and live a much more fulfilling life.

Pete Mockaitis
Can you give us some top examples for how we get in our own way?

Erin Coupe
Well, I would say one of the top ones is that we believe things for a very long time that are actually not necessarily our own truth. They are things that are picked up along the way through societal or familial structures and systems. And they are beliefs that maybe, at some point, did serve someone in our lives, but maybe they don’t necessarily serve us. So let me just give you an example.

Growing up, you learn when you are a young child that you need to look both ways before you cross the street. That is a belief that will serve you your entire life, no matter where you go on this planet, right? It is something that was ingrained in you and you act upon that every single day, right, whether you’re driving, riding a bike, walking, you name it.

A belief that you’re never going to be good enough to be this or like that or this kind of person or live in that kind of place or whatever, there is absolutely no truth in that. It is not grounded in any sort of reality or fact, but maybe someone has told you that along the way.

Maybe it was a teacher or a coach or a parent or a grandparent or an aunt, uncle, sibling. Someone maybe has told you something like that that is not your truth. And yet if you continue to believe that, it will hold you back from your own potential.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so I’m intrigued. We got one belief that you shared that works great for the whole life. You have one that seems like rubbish nonsense from the get-go. Could you also give us an example of something that, hey, that worked great before, but now it’s no longer working for you?

Erin Coupe
I’ll just give you from just one of my own experiences with this stuff, is that I believed for a long time that there’s no way I could start my own business. Now, the reason I believed that is because I had the stability and the security of a corporate job for a very long time. And while I knew I was onto something and wanting to start my own business based on passions, I also didn’t feel like it was meant for me.

I sort of saw entrepreneurship as something that was unreachable and something that was meant for other people, but definitely not someone like me. And yet, no, that’s not true. Who was I to tell myself that every single day without ever even trying it, right? So, I would let my own mind hold me back for a few years of wanting to start my own business before I actually did it.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really interesting. And could you elaborate on that notion that, “There’s no way I can start my own business. That’s for other people and not me”? I’m wondering, is that just sort of the open and shut of it, or are there some sort of particular subpoints on the outline of that belief, if you will, in terms of, because I mean, someone might just say, “Well, why Erin?” It’s like, “Oh, I guess there’s no reason. Silly me. And I chuck it behind.” But is there more sort of support under that belief?

Erin Coupe
There’s a lot underneath it. And the thing is I teach this in a lot of my coaching and in my book. If we don’t go inward and actually start to dig as to why we believe something that no longer serves us, or maybe it never has, but it certainly doesn’t serve our future self, if we’re not doing that, then we’re just letting these sorts of fear-based beliefs drive our actions, or as I say, our inactions. And the inactions are even more important, many times, than the actions.

Because if you know that there’s something that you’re after, but then you look at everyone else and go, “Oh, that’s meant for them, it’s not for me,” that’s just a victimhood mindset. There’s no one that’s going to come in and change that for you. It is a personal responsibility to take a look at it and shift it into something that feels more aligned and feels more true to you.

So, at the very bottom or the very root of that belief I just shared with you that I held for some time, it was that I didn’t believe I was good enough to start my own business, and that was rooted in fear that people wouldn’t want what I have to offer.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and it’s intriguing, and I guess if you dig into it, you’ll find different things at the root. And I’ve heard, I’m thinking about this specifically, if I can’t start my own business, and one is that, “But, boy, I just don’t think I would have the discipline to do all the things if I didn’t have a boss to report to.”

And I think there’s sort of an answer to everything in terms of, well, you could run experiments, get a coach, get an accountability partner, or find a co-working space, or make some commitments, you put some money on the line, whatever. Like, that’s solvable. Or, one I heard often, so in the United States for international listeners, there’s a bit of a health insurance situation, which is tricky.

It can be rather pricey if you’re on your own to take care of health insurance. And I’ve heard some people say, “Oh, well, I got to keep the job because I need the health insurance.” And so sometimes that is just some exploration away in terms of getting some quotes, and say, “Whoa, that is pricey, but it’s not, you know, astronomical. Now it’s a number that could be contended with.”

Erin Coupe
Right, no, absolutely. They are very real realities in any country, right? But that said, these beliefs aren’t just about starting a business or not.

Some of these beliefs are also just like very basic stuff. Like, for example, busyness equals importance, and, “My self-worth is measured on my output and my productivity.” Like, is that true? Well, no, it’s actually not true. You’re worthy, regardless of how much you can crank out every day, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. Well, so tell us then, what’s a little bit of perhaps the process of, you notice, “I’ve got this belief that it’s not helpful. It may or may not be true, but it doesn’t seem helpful.” What’s our next step? What do we do with that?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, the first and foremost thing is, you know, self-awareness is something that has to be developed and cultivated. It is not something that is supernatural to us. And the reason it’s not is because we do have this thing called society, right? We are raised by people in cultures that are just doing the best they can with what they know.

So, if everyone is just doing the best they can with what they know, then we are going to be a byproduct, essentially, of what we’re raised within. So, that being said, self-awareness comes down to not to be confused with self-analysis. I’m very, very keen on the fact that people have to understand this is not about analyzing yourself.

What self-awareness is, is knowing your sort of triggers and what makes you emotionally feel distraught or not like yourself, but then also what are some of those thoughts that you have that you don’t really want to have, the ones that really do hold you back or feel like they’re heavy or they’re daunting, but you’re having them repeatedly. Self-awareness is about noticing those things.

And the real key, the key aspect of this is, you know, Harvard Business Review said, in a couple of different research pieces that I found as I was writing the book, 85% of people believe they’re self-aware, but only 15% are. And that was as of a few years ago.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, we’ve had Dr. Tasha Eurich on the show a couple times, yeah, discussing some of that.

Erin Coupe
Yeah. And so, that’s the thing. It’s, like, if that’s the case, and that means we all have some ability to improve, we all have the ability to improve our self-awareness. And if we don’t, like I said in the beginning, if we don’t start to check some of what’s happening inside of us, understanding the emotions and the reactions that we’re having, and then being more aware of the thoughts that we have so that we can start to direct those thoughts, some may call it choose thoughts, right? We do have the ability to choose.

If we’re not doing that, we’re not self-aware. If we’re not noticing our emotions and our triggers and processing that, not necessarily always in real time, but as much as we can. And if we’re not questioning some of the thoughts we have, which turn into beliefs, then we’re not self-aware because how can we be? We’re just running on autopilot reacting to everything coming at us.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’d love your take on the choosing or directing of thoughts. Let’s say, we’ve started to take some steps here. So, it’s like, “Okay, it looks like I’ve got some sort of a belief that my value or worth is contingent upon my output or my success or results.” And then I get a disappointment, I try a thing really hard. I don’t get the outcome I want and I’m bummed. And then, I’m talking to myself in a not so handy way, like, “Oh, I’m a loser. This will never work out.’”

Okay, so he’s like, “All right. Oh, okay. I listened to Erin, and I’m hearing this is some self-awareness I got about me and how I operate and some thoughts that are popping up that I would prefer to choose otherwise, and yet they’re there. I got either some thoughts, there are some emotions. Now what?”

Erin Coupe
Yeah, thoughts create emotions, and emotions create thoughts, so it can be a very vicious cycle, right? I always talk about this kind of like a spiral, you know. And if it’s a funnel spiral and you start up here with a thought and emotion, eventually you’re going to keep going down that spiral.

And that’s why it’s called spiraling, and I’m sure you and your listeners, myself included, have all had that experience of what it means to feel a certain way and then think more of those things that make you feel that way again and again and again.

So, the awareness piece is about understanding when you are super reactionary, and creating a pause, an intentional pause, to take a look at what’s happening. And then this is not something that you can do by talking to another person, and saying, “Hey, what is happening within me right now?” This is something that only you can do with you.

Now people do things like therapy and what have you, in hindsight, yes, that could be helpful. But in your own self, what are you saying to you that you just no longer want to believe? What are you thinking that you no longer want to think? And what are you feeling that you want to shift? The awareness piece is the very first conscious step to making those shifts.

And without the awareness piece, those things are not going to shift on their own. Yeah, you might get a good night’s sleep and feel a little better the next day, but you’re still going to have the thoughts and the emotions and they’re going to keep rising up, right?

So, first of all, emotions are not a bad thing, and a lot of people want to only hold on to the really good ones, the excitement, the joy and the happiness and all that stuff, and they want to shine everything else that they feel.

Now, jealousy, envy, anger, irritability, all of it is just information. It’s just information. Where are you thinking about things that don’t serve you? Where are you believing things that don’t serve you? Where are you putting your energy or your focus or your attention that actually is not moving the needle in the way that you want to, or that is focusing on something that is just negative or not worth your time and attention, right? So, this is where that awareness piece is first and foremost.

And then the second thing is, and I like to give people this tool, one of the things that you can do that is so helpful is start to name that voice that talks to you in a way that you don’t like being spoken to. So, it’s like, would you talk to a friend the way that you talk to yourself in your own head? Would you go tell a friend to believe that they’re not worthy unless they have produced X amount per day? Or would you go tell a friend that they should equate their importance in life or how much they matter based on how busy they are?

Like, no, you would never do that, right? So, talk to yourself in a way you want to talk to. And one of the ways that you can start to make that distinction or delineation is to give that voice a name, that voice that likes to talk down to you. It likes to be mean, demean you, demoralize you. It likes to sabotage you. My own voice, her name is Erica. Lovely name, but it just works.

Like, Erin is who I am in my heart. That is my truth. That is my authentic self. That’s my essence, my core. But Erica is that person in my head who is literally just my ego. We all have one. And she likes to do things and say things that are just not so kind, right?

So, I can notice when she’s speaking up and I can choose to listen and to follow what she says, or I can choose to speak back to her and say, “Erica, I get what you’re doing. I understand. I totally know you’re here. I’m not going to shun you. I’m not going to act like you’re not here. But I don’t have to listen to that right now. I’m going to choose this direction or this thought instead.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m curious, how did you settle on the name Erica?

Erin Coupe
It felt like it was very similar to my name and it just felt right, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like an alter ego.

Erin Coupe
Yeah. I mean, I’ve heard people be like, “Oh, it’s the devil,” “It’s Poseidon,” people give it whatever name they feel some sort of, I would say, a visceral response to most of the time. Some people pick up some terrible boss’ name or something like that, but, whatever.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s interesting. In a way, I think that kind of matters, well, you tell me, because if you think it’s like the devil or a boss that you couldn’t stand, then it almost feels like this is an enemy that must be conquered, pushed against, vanquished, as opposed to a helper, like, “Oh, I see you’re trying to keep me safe or point out some watchouts, and thanks for your input…”

Erin Coupe
I agree.

Pete Mockaitis
“But I want to take a different path here.” So, I don’t know, do we want to dominate the alter ego or do we want to placate them, or what’s our optimal strategy?

Erin Coupe
Well, here’s the deal, it’s never going to go away, right? So, I’m a big friend to it. Like, I believe that we have to accept that it’s there. It has a purpose, right? Like, its purpose is that it likes to create predictability. It likes knowing what is going to happen.

The problem is, there’s no way to know what’s going to happen. It doesn’t know the future. It cannot predict the future. It only can decide and tell you things based on the past. That is very, very important to understand. Why listen to this voice in your head who has no idea what is going to happen?

Now, keeping you safe and all of that, yes, I mean, if you’re near a cliff and it’s slippery, like there’s some real scenarios there about keeping you safe. And so, fear will kick in and you need to listen to that voice. But if it’s just kind of your everyday life and it comes to making decisions and choices in your everyday life, I mean, how much do you need to just stay in that comfort zone, which is many times just familiar, and that’s why it’s comfortable, even though your growth lies outside of that?

We choose sometimes that predictability and that safety zone, that comfort zone, because anything outside of that is scary to our ego.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. Well, you also talk a lot about rituals, so I’d love to get your pro take here. How does that fit in to I Can Fit That In?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, so “I can fit that in” is a mindset shift, essentially. Going from, “I don’t have time for that,” or, “I never have time for myself,” or, “I never have time for the things that matter to me,” to, “I can fit that in because it matters to me,” “I can fit that in because I want to give energy to it,” or, “I can fit that in because I want to receive energy from it.”

This is a complete 180, right? When we tell ourselves that we don’t have time for something that matters to us, all we’re doing is slipping into resentment, deep-seated anger, and a victimhood mindset. Versus, if we start to ask ourselves, “Is it worth fitting in?” if it matters to you, you’re going to find a way.

Just like if you think about, I don’t know, like dating, anyone who’s ever dated before, right? Like, most of us who are adults have. If you really want to see someone, you’re going to find a way to put that into your schedule. You’re going to find a way to fit that into your day, right?

Same goes for how we care for ourselves, how we care for others, how we show up with others, whether that’s our communities, our families, our friends, our colleagues, our clients. Rituals are the answer, from my perspective, on how you start to fit in what matters to you. You ritualize certain things that otherwise may just be an afterthought, or may just be things that kind of fall by the wayside in your everyday life when you don’t want them to.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, “I can fit that in,” as a reframe, is almost the affirmative positive opposite of, “I don’t have time.”

Erin Coupe
Exactly. Not about time management, whatsoever.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then, in a way, it also has, I guess, the contrary or opposing point. If there’s something that doesn’t matter to say, “I don’t have time,” is not really truthful, so much as it’s like, “That does not actually matter to me enough for me to choose to fit that in.”

And so, I don’t know, you probably want to use different language when you’re declining opportunities presented to yourself by others. But if you’re being real with yourself and how you’re choosing to deploy your time on this earth, I mean, that’s what’s really going on there.

Erin Coupe
That’s absolutely right. I mean, that’s why on the cover of the book, there’s a Luna Moth, which symbolizes transformation and growth, and there’s a pair of scissors inside of it, right, that are shown within the Luna Moth.

The scissors mean cut out the stuff that doesn’t matter. Cut out the stuff that drains you, right? That requires radical responsibility. Because a lot of people squander away so much time, energy, and attention on things that literally do not move the needle, do not add value, and bring absolutely no energy to them. In fact, they siphon energy from them.

And until they take stock of what those things are and start to put something else in place of them by way of a ritual that is meaningful, something that feels good, something that adds value to your life, brings vibrancy and vitality, something that delivers energy, which ultimately increases productivity, efficiency, and effectiveness.

So, I’m big on this productivity, time management thing. I’m like, we’ve kind of had this all wrong all along. We’ve been thinking about things about, “How much can I habit stack and productivity hack my way to effectiveness and to efficiency?”

And in the long run, a lot of that way of being, which is oftentimes very autopilot, very reactionary, very routine, what that ends up doing is draining us of the very life force that we’re trying to get more of.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you give us some examples of some top things that people do a lot that we might be better off getting the scissors to and cutting right out?

Erin Coupe
Well, first of all, we talked a little bit about it, but the way we talk to ourselves, that’s a big one. In the book, I call it like tending to your inner garden, right, the garden in your mind. If you think about a garden, when weeds grow, what do they do?

They actually keep the nutrients from the flowers or the bushes or the trees that are trying to grow, right? So, we got to get rid of the weeds in our own minds so that the stuff we want to really feed can start to really take root and grow and we can feed those seeds and nurture them.

I would say, there’s a lot of stuff that people do. So, there’s like kind of, I’ll just call it like the top few that I’ve seen over the years, again, myself included. So, for me, it was a daily 5:30 glass of wine for a while, which just became an unconscious habit. I just thought I needed to take the edge off every day, you know, “Oh, just take the edge off.”

Well, a couple of years of that, why didn’t I check myself and say, “Well, why do I need to take the edge off? Edge off of what?” So, starting to be very responsible with myself around, “Why am I choosing that rather than just choosing to be present with my toddlers at the time, and just be in the moment?”

And I needed, instead, to escape or go elsewhere for just a little bit, which one glass of wine would do. But you know, that is a big thing that people do. Substances, of course, that’s a thing.

Netflix or TV every night. There’s nothing wrong with choosing something that is mindless to just let your mind kind of wander and just do nothing, but if you’re going straight from work into managing your household into just letting something like TV news, etc., social media, take over, where is the time with yourself?

Where is the time where you actually get to know what’s happening in your own mind? Where is the time that you actually sit in stillness or allow yourself to be maybe more meditative or more reflective or to journal, those kinds of things, right?

So that’s where a lot of people choose something to keep themselves busy, even though that might not be productive, per se. And then other things, gaming, gambling, stress eating, all that kind of stuff. Those are the major ones that people end up kind of choosing unconsciously.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, and you talk in your book about autopilot, and I think that’s really eye opening because I’ve had this happen to myself in which I end up, you know, I’m clicking all over social media or the news or something. And it is, it’s just autopilot because you know it’s there. And I think if I actually stop and assess like, “What am I trying to get from this experience?”

And so, sometimes I could pinpoint it pretty precisely, it’s like, “Oh, what I want is to be utterly fascinated by something that engages the whole of my attention in an interesting, energizing way.” And every once in a while, social media will do that, it’s like, “Oh, my gosh. Wow, check this out. This is fascinating,” or, “Whoa, look at this article.” And so, every once in a while, that happens, but most of the time it doesn’t.

And so, you mentioned gaming, but I think that I actually have noticed that if I choose to do another activity, it can be recreational, but let’s say I’m going to do, I don’t know, a game like some chess puzzles or a Tetris battle, you know, it could be short, discrete, and accomplish that more reliably, and have an actually more clear exit ramp than, “Oh, this story goes on endlessly and links to many other questions” and delivers what I’m after with a better success rate and lower amount of time. And I feel better afterwards.

So, in terms of, and I like what you said. You could do something mindless but make it a winning mindless choice instead of just a default mindless choice.

Erin Coupe
I love how you framed that and it’s so true, because think about how you feel different after playing Sudoku, or doing a puzzle, or playing cards, or a board game with your family. Think about some of those things that you do versus getting sucked in where your energy is just siphoning away from you.

The mind is literally doing something different. All of the social media stuff is designed, very, very intentionally, to take from you. It’s why it’s free, you know? It’s just taking, taking, taking. Whereas, all these other things, you’re actually giving to yourself. You’re actually pulling energy back in because you’re using your mind in a completely different way that is more reflective and that is more intentional and conscious.

So, yeah, that default mode, look, we’re all going to do it, and it’s there for us anytime we want it, right? There’s no such thing as perfection here. But what this is about is realizing, like, look, if there are things in our lives that we want to go differently, or we want to create, or we want to get after, or we want to achieve, whatever that is, it’s up to us to make these shifts in our day-to-day where we start to feel better or feel different about the choices we make.

And I don’t know about you, but when I feel good energetically, when I’ve slept well, I’ve eaten well, I feel good about the work I’m doing, I feel good about how I’m showing up with my family, like how I’m showing up for myself, all those things, I am capable of so much more and I see way more possibility. And this is true for everybody I’ve worked with.

But when we are the opposite of that, when we’re just completely on autopilot, totally reactionary, I mean, I used to wake up going, “Ugh, another day,” you know, and I look back at that woman and think, “Geez, I can’t even believe that was the same person.”

But that’s the cycle I was in for so long where I just made all these choices that matched that energy. I came at life from that place and nothing ever felt like it was possible. Everything felt hard and heavy and distant, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I’d love to get some of your perspective work with so many people. When it comes to some of these rituals, what are a few that have been super transformational? Like, a lot of people have found, by spending just a few minutes doing X, Y, or Z ritual, presents a tremendous return on the backside?

Erin Coupe
Yeah, so what I’m not big on is like join the 5:00 a.m. club. Like, this isn’t about a routine. However, what I will say is that people do find, when they give themselves, just themselves, a little time in the morning, they start to feel way different about their lives overall. So, it doesn’t mean it has to be 5:15 or 5:30 in the morning.

But think about, like, if you have children, what time are your kids up and moving? Where else are you alone in your day? Where else do you have time for just you with you? And this isn’t even just about like, “Okay, I’m going to go to the gym,” right, because even that, like you’re doing a different activity, which could be a ritual, it could be something that you’re intentionally putting in your life, very much so.

But where do you get time, just you with you, to set an intention for your day, to think about, “What do I want to feel today? How do I want to experience life today?” And making a choice, “Today I’m going to feel calm. Today I’m going to feel excited. Today I’m going to go into that meeting and I’m going to be this person because I know this is me and this is what I want, or I know that I’m capable of working with this client,” or whatever it is.

But setting an intention is really, really powerful because what it does, neuro-scientifically, it will prime your brain to actually notice that you are being that or feeling that, right? So that’s a really important thing that I see a lot of people do that is a game changer.

Pete Mockaitis
Setting an intention. So, what are the ABCs of pulling that off?

Erin Coupe
Literally, to tell yourself what you want to feel. It is very simple.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Like, in terms of in advance, like, “As I enter this conversation with Erin, I want to feel curious and positive and presence.” It’s like, “As I pick up my kids from school, I want to be optimistic and supportive and patient.”

Erin Coupe
And even, “I will be. I will be.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I will be.” Okay.

Erin Coupe
Yes, affirm to yourself.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, by maybe visualizing myself, doing, feeling those things, or just saying some words.

Erin Coupe
You are more likely to experience those. If you tell yourself that that’s what you will feel, you are more likely to experience that in that moment. So that’s key.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m also thinking about, we had a Shirzad Chamine of Positive Intelligence, great app, great program. And he says that even the opposite is sort of true. We’re not setting an intention to be grumpy.

But you realize when you step in, “Okay, I’m about to step into a situation where it’s likely that I am going to experience some skepticism, some critiques, some, you know, squinty looks from folks who aren’t quite buying what I’m selling. “And that might make me feel self-conscious, defensive, whatever. My classic saboteurs might respond to that.”

So, just having a heads up, like, “Watch out. This is a thing that can happen. And, instead, I’m going to,” or, “I will feel or respond in these ways,” can be surprisingly very handy to not falling into the traps.

Erin Coupe
Yeah, well, what intention is, essentially, is momentum behind your actions. So, if you are not intentional, you are in a cycle of firefighting all the time, just putting out fires, right? You’re just reacting to everything around you. Instead of being the director or being in the driver’s seat, you’re sitting in the passenger seat. You’re just letting life happen to you instead of believing that it happens through you and for you.

So, these are two very different, again, distinctive mindsets, right? Coming at things from a place of, “This is what I intend and, therefore, it is more likely to happen,” versus, “I’m going to be completely unintentional and just absorb whatever comes at me and react to it as it does,” right? Like, very, very different forces, if you will.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. Well, Erin, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Erin Coupe
You know, I feel like you asked me a little bit more about other rituals that people like to practice.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, yes, please. Lay them on me.

Erin Coupe
And so, we talked about setting an intention. Another one that I like to mention is breath, I mean, the importance of breath. And not to sit here and teach breath work. But there’s a game changing technique called the 4-7-8 that I have used with hundreds and, at this point, probably thousands of people. And it literally does change the way that you respond, not react to life.

And so, we all have situations, right? We all have things that go on, whether it’s someone that cuts us off on the road, or we get an email from a client that’s not so nice, or our mom texts us something about our crazy brother in the middle of the workday, and it totally derails us or distracts us.

If you breathe in this certain way where you spend about 90 seconds focused on your breath, and you inhale for four seconds, you hold for seven, and you exhale for eight, and you do that on repeat, like six times, like it’s you at about 90 seconds, it is proven that 90 seconds is what it takes for an emotion to dissipate.

Now it doesn’t mean the situation goes away, but it means the emotion that was reacting within your body will start to calm down. And when that does, you can respond from that place. So, think about it, again, if you’ve got children, or if you’ve got some crazy partner, or a crazy neighbor, or whatever it is, something is going on and you just react to that, you’re more likely to spill fuel on the fire, right?

And things are probably going to be tense and stressful and emotional and all the things. Versus, if you can create a little bit of space, 90 seconds for yourself to just breathe through it before you choose a response, then you are going to be able to respond in a way that maybe you wouldn’t be as stressed out, maybe you wouldn’t cause as much tension, maybe you wouldn’t have as much aftermath to deal with from whatever that situation was and how you reacted to it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, let’s talk 4-7-8 breathing. So, Andrew Weil, I believe, is the popularizer of this. Whenever I watch his videos about this, he talks about my tongue placement and making a whoosh sound. Is that important, Erin?

Erin Coupe
No

Pete Mockaitis
Or is there anything to focus on, like my diaphragm, or just, hey, 4-7-8, it’s all good?

Erin Coupe
There is no right way to do this, just like with meditation. There’s no right way to meditate. Like, I’m very big on let’s remove a lot of the myths and just use what works. The reason this breathing technique works is that your mind is actually focused on the breath. It can’t focus on two things at once.

So, think about it. If you don’t focus on something when something triggering is happening, what is your mind going to focus on? The emotional reaction. That’s what it’s going to focus on. It’s going to think and think and think and overthink about that reaction to the emotion that it’s experiencing, versus allowing yourself to breathe through that experience will bring the energy down your body where the emotion will move through you. You will experience the emotion, but you won’t overthink it because you’re focused on something different.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you.

Erin Coupe
Yeah, you’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Erin Coupe
Probably one of my favorites is that, “You don’t have to be great to get started. You just have to get started to be great.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Very good. And a favorite experiment or study or piece of research?

Erin Coupe
One thing I’m very interested in is the stars, the universe, the planets, you name it. And there’s a guy named Gregg Braden who kind of calls himself a scientist turned, I forget, like spiritualist or something. But he explores kind of the metaphysical, kind of quantum mechanics side of things and how the universe works from a very human perspective.

He’s got, like, seven books, and I, very kind of slowly, dig through them. And I like to learn, I like the experiments that he works with in these.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you share a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Erin Coupe
Well, meditation. I’m an intuitive person and I’ve developed that intuition over time. So, one of the things I use is, before I say yes to working with a new client or yes to an opportunity, I meditate and I ask my intuition basically, “Does it serve me? Is it aligned with me? Am I meant to serve the people that I’m being asked to serve?” Those kinds of questions.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And is there a key nugget you share that folks really resonate with and will quote back to you often?

Erin Coupe
I would say, “You are the architect of your life” is something that I use a lot, and also, “Your well-being is a reflection of your mindset.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Erin Coupe
ErinCoupe.com, so that’s E-R-I-N-C-O-U-P-E.com. I am also at @authenticallyec on Instagram.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Erin Coupe
Rituals, not routines. Input rituals, fit in the things that matter most to you, and cut out the things that are draining you out of obligation or just autopilot routines.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Erin, thank you.

Erin Coupe
Thank you, Pete.

Jan 08
0

1118: Finding Consistent Motivation to Turn Intention into Action with Chris Bailey

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Chris Bailey explains the science behind intentionality and how it can dramatically increase goal attainment.

You’ll Learn

  1. The 12 main values that drive everything you do
  2. 
The simple reframe that significantly boosts motivation
  3. How to deal with resistance to action

About Chris 

Chris Bailey is an author and speaker who explores the science behind living a more productive and intentional life. He has written hundreds of articles on the subject and has garnered coverage in media as diverse as The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, GQ, HuffPost, New York magazine, Harvard Business Review, TED, Fast Company, and Lifehacker. 

The bestselling author of The Productivity Project, Hyperfocus, and How to Calm Your Mind, Bailey’s books have been published in more than forty languages. He lives in Ottawa, Canada. His new book, Intentional, comes out January 6, 2026.

Resources Mentioned

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Chris Bailey Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Chris, welcome back for round four.

Chris Bailey
Round four, Pete. Are you serious?

Pete Mockaitis
It is. It is round four. The last round was, oh, about five years ago, so it’s been a while. But we are using the same pen and the same microphone so I feel like, since I respect you and think you’re a genius, that maybe I, too, am worthy of some sort of props, but maybe that’s reading too much into things.

Chris Bailey
Has the pen helped?

Pete Mockaitis
It’s been pleasant. This is the Pilot Precise, by the way, RT, for those listening.

Chris Bailey
It’s the best pen.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, you raved about it in a previous episode, and I was like, “Oh, let’s check it out.” It was like, “Yep, I’m just going to buy dozens of these things.”

Chris Bailey
Yeah, I have friends who are into fountain pens and they have all these fancy pen rituals, pencil rituals, all these different weights. They send me these pens. They’re all garbage. I’m sorry if you’re a pen person. They’re all garbage, except for the Pilot Precise V5 RT. Come at me, pen people.

Pete Mockaitis
Noted. We’ll put that in the pulled highlight quotes there. So, well, I want to hear, we’re talking about your book, Intentional. It’s been about five years since we chatted. Tell me, what’s the most powerful thing you’ve learned in your life of productivity over these last five years?

Chris Bailey
About values. Now, before your eyes glaze over, whenever I’ve heard the term values, my eyes have glazed over. I am not exaggerating. When I hear the word values, I think of the corny corporate exercises I’ve done in the past where somebody like brings in a sheet of paper and there’s a hundred values and they say, “Circle the values,” and I like them all, you know, grace, humor, whatever. And there’s very little research behind those.

But it turns out, there is a fascinating body of research behind what we value on a fundamental human level, and that there are 12 main values that drive pretty much everything we do. And that when we don’t want to do something, we’re usually going against the grain of our values. And so, I’ve been into this idea. You know, we’ve chatted about this three, going on four times, this idea of becoming intentional.

I’ve always wanted to write a book on becoming more intentional, but I’ve never found enough stuff around values to share, stuff around intention to share, until I encountered values, which are the research shows, that’s been validated across 60 different countries, hundreds of thousands of participants, full credit where credit is due to Shalom Schwartz for discovering this methodology of motivation, essentially.

It was kind of the missing piece that pieced together all of the things that I’ve been incubating on intentionality over the last decade. And it was an unlock for me. It was as if everything was aligned. And I don’t want to oversell. I don’t think I’m overselling.

Once you see what the values are and stuff and how the different levels of intentionality in our life fit together, there’s beautiful, fascinating science behind it. Of course, we don’t always accomplish our intentions, which is a whole other thing, but it’s fascinating, it’s beautiful, and it’s powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s intriguing. And part of me is tempted to say, “Give me the 12 now. List them.”

But first, you say it’s a big unlock and there’s hard science and research. Can you tell me what are some of the main discoveries of this research and what impact does it make when you apply it?

Chris Bailey
So, there’s different fundamental motivations we have in our life. There are two kinds of axes of motivation that we have that motivates us in our work, in our life, any context that we’re in.

There’s whether we’re motivated to enrich other people or ourselves. And there’s whether we wish to conserve things as they are or improve things as they are. And so, these are the fundamental motivations in our life that our values fit inside of.

And the key to keep in mind is that, with all 12 of these values, we’re all different. Your values are different from mine. Although good pens aren’t a value, but there are associated values actually with a good pen and good microphones. We have the same microphone.

The key to keep in mind is we all have all 12 at a different level. So, there’s self-direction, which is going our own way. There’s stimulation, which is enjoying novelty in the moment. There’s pleasure, which is, you know, sense pleasure, it’s a good meal or a good bath or something. There’s achievement, so accomplishing good things.

There’s power, right, a power over resources and other people. There’s face is another one of the values, which is how we come across to other people. There’s security, so personal security and societal security.

Tradition is another value, so the customs that surround us. Conformity is very, interestingly, to me, a fundamental human value, you know, kind of this fundamental conservation of living within the expectations of other people. Humility is a fundamental value.

Universalism, I find to be a beautiful value, which is protecting and advancing the welfare of people and of nature. And benevolence is the final 12th value, which is kindness and serving others. And so, across, and all these values fit into those kinds of four motivations, ourselves or others, or improve and change.

And so, we all have all 12 in different extents. And anything that we could be doing in the moment, anything we could possibly be doing in the moment, fits inside of these values. A good pen is pleasure. That’s the pleasure value.

Pete Mockaitis
Pleasure. Stimulation. Power.

Chris Bailey
That’s stimulation maybe a little bit because it feels so good. Self-direction, if you chose it yourself. If you heard it from a friend, if everybody you know is using this same pen, that fits with conformity. Humility, using a simple $3 pen, or, however much this costs, instead of a fountain. Everything we do is motivated by these values.

And so, our values are the broadest intentions in our life. They’re what we ultimately hope to accomplish. And so, the more that the goals we have fit with these values, the more we actually care about them. And the more they feel like a natural extension of who we are. And then it goes down to the various levels of intentionality in our life, but this is at the very top.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, Chris, you know, as you were speaking, my natural consultant brain, thinking, “Is this a mutually exclusive and collectively exhaustive categorization set? Can I think of anything that does not fall into them?” And, well, I’ve only been thinking for about 40 seconds and I was having a hard time digging one up. So, we’ll say it’s pretty good.

Chris Bailey
Well, I can name one or two. I can name one or two.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, let’s hear it, yeah.

Chris Bailey
Yeah, health is one that doesn’t fit. But these values, they’re a motivational continuum. So, they are what could be possibly motivating us in the moment. And health is interesting. That was a big question I had when I looked at this theory, it’s like, “Okay, where is health in this?”

Pete Mockaitis
I think that’s power. I’ve got the power to get out of bed, the power to have the energy for the day, the power to walk up a flight of stairs.

Chris Bailey
Well, that’s the interesting thing. It depends on the person. So, women are more likely to see health as a pleasure value because they feel good in their body.

Pete Mockaitis
Being in pain sucks. Fix that shoulder with a physical therapist. Ugh.

Chris Bailey
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it’s self-direction, right? You can go your own way. Some people see it as that achievement. Other people see their body as an achievement that they can, yeah, bro.

Pete Mockaitis
“Muscle ups, bro.”

Chris Bailey
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, they’re a true motivational continuum. It’s beautiful that these are what drive everything we do. So, uncovering the ones that actually motivate us is paramount for achieving the goals that we set.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it is interesting because I’ve noticed that I really like feeling like a winner – achievement – and I really don’t like feeling like a loser. And some of this can even be neurotically nonsensical, you know, in terms of, like, if I’m taking out my trash and I can’t fit the week’s trash into my trash bin, I feel like I am being a poor steward of the earth’s resources because it’s like, “Oh, you know, this huge garbage bin wasn’t enough for you, huh? So now the whole world has to see, ‘Oh, that family can’t handle consuming a moderate amount.’”

And so, it’s like, “But, like, who cares? Like, nobody actually cares.” And yet this is, this is inside of me. And it’s kind of, and I guess there’s maybe conformity, right, “Hey, all of us fit our stuff inside the trash bin.”

Chris Bailey
Yeah, there’s universalism in there, wanting to protect the nature. There’s face, right, looking at how you come across other people. There’s achievement, wanting to crush the garbage down to a certain extent. It’s all in there. And so, this is the fascinating thing about values, is because they’re essentially our ultimate intentions in our life. They’re what we care about most.

But every single intention that we set, whether deliberately or not, because that’s another curious thing, intentions don’t have to be deliberate, they can be automatic. A habit is our brain forming an intention that will do something automatically for us. Maybe that’s too much to get into on the podcast, but in every moment, especially when we make these deliberate intentions, we’re automatically evaluating a series of options before us using our top values as a trade-off.

And so, the values that tend to win out in the moment tend to be our strongest values. It’s interesting. They’re behind the scenes of our life pulling, because, of course, we don’t always follow through with our intentions. Intentionality, it’s incredible, it’s beautiful, but the road to hell is also paved with good intentions. But these values are behind the scenes because they’re our true motivational nature, pulling on the strings of what we will do and what we won’t do.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, what’s so intriguing is, as I’m thinking about, yeah, with any goal you could feel them at war. And I’m thinking about, I’ve been on both sides of the overweight threshold, according to the body mass index. And food, I mean, boy, it is stimulation, it is pleasure, it’s so good.

And yet, when I am having, on a hot streak of weight loss, what’s doing it for me is achievement in terms of, I’m tracking those calories, like, “Look at that, another day a deficit. Winning!” It feels good. And so then, they’re at war. It’s like, “Well, do I want the pleasure of this cheesecake or do I want the pleasure of winning a caloric deficit for the day?”

Chris Bailey
Yeah, and that’s the thing with these, like, weight loss goals, is an interesting one because 40% of the world’s population at any given time are trying to lose weight, so about half of us are. But we tend to go about goals like that the wrong way. So, we set a goal, ‘Yeah, I’m to lose 10 pounds this year so I look good, have six-pack abs by beach season.” We have this idea of ourselves.

But a goal like that is built around face, right, the value of face. It’s how we come across to other people.

But if your top value is pleasure, and maybe self-direction or something, a different goal would be better, right? Like, instead of that lose the weight to have six-pack abs by beach season built around face, maybe it’s, like, experiment with three different ways of eating – self-direction – to find the one that’s most enjoyable.

And so, you can have the same set of actions that lead you to different goals, but they are actually motivated. And this is something that is also interesting about intentionality, is there are many, and I love this idea. I love this idea.

So, there are many different layers of intentionality in our life. So, we set intentions across all kinds of different timelines, right? We have our values, which are our ultimate intentions. They last the length of our lifetime. Then we have the intentions that are a bit shorter than that, which are called our priorities. Like, “Be healthy” would be a priority.

Then we have intentions that are shorter than that, still, which we call goals, things we want to accomplish in our life, stories of change that we’re creating. Then we have, you know, we kind of go down in timeline. Then we have the plans that we have. Goals should ultimately lead to the plans that we set.

And then we have the smallest of intentions at the very bottom of this. I call it the intention stack in the book. It’s just, essentially, all the layers of intentionality in our life. And at the bottom, the very bottom, we have the present intentions we have in the moment.

So, somebody listening to this podcast, the present moment intention might be, “Listen to the podcast and enjoy it.” Then the plan might be, it might fit inside of a broader plan, like a chore to wash the dishes or something. Then it might fit inside of a goal, like in, you know, “Learn more about self-development and how to be awesome at my job.”

Then it fits inside of a priority, which is “Make a bigger contribution,” which fits inside of a value of, let’s say, benevolence, helping other people, plus achievement. And so, there’s always this stack on top of what we’re doing in the moment. But sometimes it’s aligned to what we care about. Other times we don’t care at all.

And so, it’s fascinating when you begin to deconstruct intentionality and look at the science of it, what it’s shaped like, and how it works, and how we can kind of, I got to say harness, it’s kind of a corny word, but like harness it to do the change that we want.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah. And I think this is, it opens up, and you called it an unlock. It does open up a lot of possibilities in terms of, “Oh, I wasn’t even thinking about approaching this thing with that value as a lens, but because I’m really into that value, it may well behoove me to explore how can I do such a thing to provide for more humility or universalism or benevolence or whatever the thing is.”

Chris Bailey
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
You know, Chris, I want to maybe take a little time out here because it almost feels as though some of these values are good-er, more morally virtuous, right, true, noble than others in terms of, like, let’s say universalism, benevolence, humility. We think, “Oh, what a swell fella, or a gal, who exhibits a lot of those things,” versus, “You know what I’m really about is pleasure and power and looking awesome. That’s kind of what’s important to me.” That almost feels hollow or like a less good life.

Chris Bailey
Yeah, I talk about this in the book, too. My top value is self-direction. It’s not even close. But my number two is pleasure. I love nothing more than to…well, I like self-direction more, but I love nothing second more than to just lie on the couch after a busy day and put on a good show or a podcast, and order some Uber eats, like a big sushi platter and just indulge for the night.

And this was a very reflective process that I went through in piecing together this book is, “Are there good values? Are there bad values?” And I’ve, ultimately, come to the conclusion that, “No, there aren’t good values or bad values. There are certain values that are more conducive to certain goals.” But if you’re able to accommodate the values of others, in addition to the values of yourself, I think you’ll be fine.

Power is one that comes to mind, too, because out of all the values, out of all the listed values, it’s the very least common. It’s at the very bottom across the population level, and, sure enough, it is for me, too. I never want to have power over any other person ever in my life.

But, power, if you look at the world around us, it has a place in what we do. Any organization that has a hierarchy, for example, you have different layers of the hierarchy, and you need power within that organizational structure. Every charity has a CEO. Every nonprofit has a CEO. Every congregation has a priest.

So even the most virtuous of places, these values have a place. Conformity, right, maybe also a frowned upon value. But there’s a great benefit to going along with the expectations of others in certain scenarios, right, for accommodating other people. I’m the most self-directed person you might ever meet. And I don’t want to listen, you know, if somebody else tells me to do something, it makes me not want to do it.

But I remember my grandma telling me, like, “Wash the dishes now,” and I’d do it because I had such a respect for her. And that conformity and tradition, all these values live relative to one another, too, which is interesting. They live right next to each other in these values pie, this pie hierarchy – pie-archy.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that is a really intriguing perspective there that these values, they’re motivational forces and they don’t necessarily lead to great or catastrophic outcomes for civilization or humanity when they all kind of come together. And what’s interesting about power is you said, you define it as, it is power over others or yourself or circumstances.

Chris Bailey
Or resources, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Or resources, yeah. I’ve got a, my buddy Ronnie, he had a funny saying, he said, “Laundry is power.” I was like, “What?”

Chris Bailey
What does that mean?

Pete Mockaitis
And then I think, one day, I had done all, I mean all of my laundry, and I’m beholding this dresser full of organized socks matched and shirts folded, underwear. And then, as I beheld this arsenal of complete laundry, it’s like, I really did, I was like, I’m ready for anything. I’m ready for anything. I felt powerful in that moment. I understood what he meant.

But I, like you, have no interest in controlling the legions of people. In fact, that sounds like a huge headache, like, “Oh, my gosh, that administrative load would be such a stressor.”

Chris Bailey
And that’s the interesting thing. I don’t want to, like, overload people with this value stuff right now, but I break it down more into, like, you can break down the 12 into 19, actually, of them, where you can break down power, for example, into power over resources and other people. Self-direction, you can break into self-directed thought and self-directed action.

And so, it’s very interesting that there’s this. It’s just a fundamental organization to human motivation that we don’t understand. But when you do understand it and you can fit through these different layers of intentionality, the goals that you have with your values, and then see how those goals connect with the daily actions that you need to take, what you get is your goals become a vessel between who you are on that fundamental level, so what motivates you, and what you do on a daily basis.

And so, we are sharing the fat loss example. Same set of actions, but with a different frame around them, with a different motivational frame around them. Imagine if your goals were all like that. This is actually the thing that bothers me about a lot of goals and goal books and stuff like that, is when you look at the actual research on goals, we have to achieve them by becoming more intentional across the different layers of intentionality in our life.

But we so often see them as static, something that shouldn’t change. But goals should evolve. We should be editing them. We should be dropping them. We should see them as fluid things. And goals, in my view, they’re basically just a story of change that we’re in the middle of creating in our life. And we need to see them as more fluid and ready to change, because so often a goal is really no different from a prediction of what we believe will happen.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, well, this is really juicy, and so, conceptually, we can hang here for a long time, but I’d love to perhaps shift gears into, “Okay. All right, Chris, my mind is blown with regard to these values, they’re important, and I should be considering them thoughtfully as I’m trying to go about making stuff happen.” Could you share with us a little bit of the step-by-step in terms of, “Okay, I got a list of values. That’s kind of cool. I got some things I want to be achieving, what am I doing with that?”

Chris Bailey
Yes, okay. So, let’s get tactical with this stuff, because, yeah, we have to be. So, you have your values, maybe you do a values test. I partnered with a company to build a test for the book. You don’t have to take that though, because there are certain ones that’ll kind of attract you more, and others that’ll naturally repel you.

And so, what you’ll find is that, when you look at those 12 values and the pie that they’re a part of, you’ll naturally gravitate to some and be repelled by others. Look to the ones that you naturally gravitate to and pick the top two, let’s say, two, three. Stop there. These are what you build your goals around. And then you have a list of goals, right?

How often do we actually sit down and capture the goals that we have that we’re in the middle of creating? And so, I highly recommend a weekly review where you sit down, you capture, and then you review, on a weekly basis, all the goals that you’re in the middle of creating.

And so, every goal, so in the book, I call it the intention stack. So, at the top, it is values, then priorities, then goals, then plans, then intentions, daily, weekly intentions. And, ideally, during this weekly review, or whatever cadence it makes sense for you to review these goals on, you want to look at both your values, which is the motivational force, and the actions, which is how you actually make progress towards these goals in the first place.

So, I think step zero is realizing that goal attainment, the process of goal attainment, is it’s not 99% action. It’s like 80% action, 20% planning. We need to plan more and act a little bit less, because by planning more, we actually act more over the longer arc of time, especially once the initial burst of motivation wanes.

So, during that weekly review, edit your goals, edit your goals, edit your goals. How can you edit them, like with that weight loss example, how can you edit your goals so that they fit more with what you value, so you actually care about them, right? Because the easiest way to tell if something’s a priority to you is you’ve achieved it already, right?

So, the fact that something is yet to be achieved, probably means, on some level, that it isn’t a natural fit for who you are, because it doesn’t fit with that motivational force, right? We do what it makes intuitive sense to do in the absence of intentional action.

So, during that weekly review, how can you edit your goals so they’re more in line with what you value? And how can you bite off a little bit of the goal until your next review, whatever cadence you’re doing this over?

So, if you’re doing it over a week, what do you want to bite off in the next week? Make sure it’s enough that you can chew, or not too much that you can chew, whatever the analogy is there, and schedule time blocks for it.

Practice intentionality on a more granular level. Set a few weekly intentions. Every day, set a few daily intentions so these intentions can actually flow down into one another. So, edit your goals. And, as well, if you find that a goal isn’t motivating that you can’t edit it to the point that it fits into your life, consider dropping it.

Because then we get a chance to try more goals on for size that are actually a fit with what we want to get out of our life and our motivational nature. So that’s one way is that goal review where we bridge, essentially, who we are with what we do.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, very cool.

Chris Bailey
There you go.

Pete Mockaitis
And then I’d love to dig into some of your perspectives for, if we’ve got a goal that is not so appealing, well, one, you might learn via the editing process that it needs to be dropped. But before that, do you have any cool examples of folks who were able to just turbocharge motivation and progress by thoughtfully tweaking their goals so they are better fits for their values?

Chris Bailey
This is interesting, right? Because is gray intentionality such a beautiful idea? And then the rubber meets the road, right? The road to hell is also paved with good intention. So, intentionality is both vital because any time we act towards our goals, there was an intention behind it.

But sometimes, it’s also useless because there’s a lot of times when we set an intention only to not follow through, or procrastinate on an intention, or lack the desire to accomplish it. And so, there’s essentially two factors in a goal, in an intention, in something we want to do, that attract us or repel us away from that thing.

So, there’s aversion, which, you know, it’s like, “Get this out of my face, this goal out of my face.” And then there’s desire, which attracts us to a goal. And both of these are forces that work with every single goal that we have. And they’re different over the timeline of a goal, right?

So, if you’re at the very beginning, the very inception of a goal, your desire is going to be through the roof. Your motivation level is going to be so, so high. But then reality sinks in, “Oh, there goes gravity,” and then our motivation level plummets, and our desire can turn into aversion.

So, a lot of it’s like realizing where you are on that timeline of goal attainment. But aversion is a very interesting feeling that we experience along the way, because aversion is what leads us to procrastinate on something.

So, the more aversive something happens to be, which is a combination of “How boring is it? How frustrating is it? How unpleasant is it? How far away is something in the future? How unstructured is it? How meaningless is it?” so lack of connected with our values, the more of these triggers that a task has, the more likely we are to procrastinate on it.

And so, that’s another key is realizing that and understanding what triggers a task sets off. So, if something’s unstructured, like meditation is a great example of this. We were chatting a bit about meditation before we hopped on the horn here and hit the record button.

It’s one of the most aversive things that you can do, right? It’s helpful because it’s so aversive, right? If you can focus on your breath, you can focus on anything. If you can become engaged with your breath, you could become engaged with anything because it’s so boring, because it’s so aversive.

But when you accommodate the fact that it’s so unstructured and unpleasant, by working within the aversion, so a simple example of this, shrink your resistance to it. So, this works for meditation, it works for anything you don’t want to do that takes a little bit of time.

You might have a conversation with yourself like, “Okay, do I want to meditate for half an hour today? No. No, I don’t. What about 25 minutes? No. What about 20? No way in hell. What about 15? Yeah, I could do 15.”

And so, you essentially shrink the task until you no longer feel that resistance level so that you’re at a point where you can get started on the thing. And that increases your desire to actually moving between different levels of this intention stack. You move from that goal layer to that action layer that’s at the bottom.

And so, when something’s unstructured, that’s a sign you need to add structure. When something’s meaningless, it’s a sign you need to connect a goal with your values. Edit it so it’s aligned with your values. When something’s boring, frustrating, it might be a sign you need to step back and plan out on a logical level how you want to become more intentional about that thing.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m thinking about, well, these procrastination triggers, I think I learned them from you as well as what are the top researchers on procrastination. What was the book? I think we both read it.

Chris Bailey
Was it Tim Pytchyl?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s the one. Thank you.

Chris Bailey
Oh, Tim is fantastic, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, and he lists those out, and that’s helpful to think about it on those dimensions. And I guess that’s what, to your point about doing more planning, that’s what you can, you can get kind of meta with this. It’s like, “Huh, I have not done these three weeks in a row. It seems something is amiss here.” And so, rather than say, “Well, I just got to knuckle down and buckle up, you know, to get after it.” It’s like, well, maybe there’s some redesign that needs to be working here, or maybe the goal needs to be abandoned.

Chris Bailey
It’s interesting, in writing this book, I chatted with lot of monks, as well as scientists, because monks study intentionality on a different layer than scientists do. They’re not observational, they’re experiential. They observe the causes and effects and conditions in our mind, and we can learn a lot from them.

And one interesting thing that I asked one of the monks, I was deep into the research on where intention comes from, because we set all these intentions, right? And some of them we set automatically, which I call our default intentions.

‘Cause some come from automatic sources. We are on a road trip, we need to go to the bathroom, and so we set an intention at the next pit stop, “I’m going to go to the bathroom.” We don’t even think about this. We do it automatically. So, biological sources, sources to avoid pain and experience greater pleasure also lead to a whole other wealth of intentions.

The lessons we have learned in the past. So, the things we have learned changes, they change our relationship with what we know to be true, which leads us to set an intention differently the next time, whether we do it out of habit or energy, or whether we do it deliberately.

But one source that a monk mentioned that wasn’t in the research that kind of allowed me to piece together other areas of the research was – and he phrased it so beautifully – is our self-reflective capacity.

Our self-reflective capacity, by looking inward, asking questions of our inner world, we are able to set different intentions from the ones that we would do out of biology, or out of basic pleasure and pain, or out of lessons we have learned, to truly go our own way and set the best intentions that lead us to the outcomes that we want, whether we want to be more accomplished at work or lead a more enriching, meaningful life by connecting with our values at work, at home.

We need to tap into that capacity more often. And so, it doesn’t just have to look like meditation or journaling or something. It can look like just going for a walk and then letting your mind go to where “What problems are you in the middle of? How can you solve them with setting intentions that are more conducive to what you want?”

They could look like brainstorming with somebody, so somebody that really gets you thinking. It can look like asking questions of your inner world and looking at what arises out of them. Like, we all have these moments where we go from autopilot mode to being deliberate about what we do.

So, if your whole family was gone for one morning or something, and you woke up and your phone wasn’t there, and so you couldn’t rely on habit in bed and you just laid there. Eventually, a moment would come where your mind would set an intention to do something, where you would set an intention to do something, whether it was a habit or whether you waited for a little bit longer to look at what you truly wanted to do in that moment.

It’s the same like if you’re listening to music and a song ends, pause, and then eventually your mind will set an intention to listen to the next one, which will end up being more enjoyable than the one that you were just listening to on autopilot.

Life is the same way, right? It’s by charting this deliberate course that we experience more meaning because it’s in connecting with that self-reflective capacity that we can be with what we value. And so, our values that compete with one another in each moment, the ones that are truest to us can win out, and then we can truly, truly go our own way.

Tthe truest intentions that we can set, like you were getting at, they come from not just acting, but reflecting, whether that’s on a logical level or on a more intuitive level where we look and connect with that self-reflective capacity that we all have.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I hear you. Autopilot is, in some ways, the opposite of intentionality. I mean, even if we establish those habits intentionally and we’re executing, living them out in an autopilot mode – I’m getting philosophical – on some dimension, the autopilot is intentional, but from like a presentness way of looking at it, it’s not so much.

Chris Bailey
Well, this is why, in the book, I delineate between our default intentions and our deliberate intentions, because we have these default intentions that we have. Habits are great. Habits are amazing. But when you look at an intention as just a plan that we will do something, this habit energy, as I refer to it in the book, and as monks refer to it actually, there’s quite a bit of power in that.

We don’t have to worry about making ourselves a cup of coffee in the morning. Our brain, our body goes through the motions automatically until we’re sitting there like with a cup of coffee. We don’t even have to be fully awake enough to notice it.

But you’re right that, eventually, that moment comes. It’s kind of like the movie montage where, like, somebody’s living their dull humdrum life and the scene is gray and it’s raining outside, they’re going through the same motions. But then, like, boom, somebody dies, or something pivotal happens, where that character has a fit of awakening and decides to do things differently, and decides to go in a different direction from the one that they were going in.

And then like cut to the badass working out montage, or like somebody writing for hours through the night, or piecing together some math problem, you know, something like that. But we all have these similar fits of awakening.

And all that is, is going from the habit energy of relying on our default intentions to the deliberate intentions that we can all set in the moment. Well, here’s something mind blowing about default intentions.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, please.

Chris Bailey
Our values are constructed out of our default intentions. Like, seeing that in the research, it sent shivers down my spine, I’m not going to lie. It all came together. Our values are who we are on a fundamental human level. They’re what motivate us on a fundamental human level. And what motivates us more than who we are by default? Our default intentions.

And our deliberate intentions, the life we want to live, the contributions we want to make, the work we want to do, that’s the layer of deliberate intentions we layer on top of who we are by default. So, it’s, really, when you look at the science of intentionality, it explains everything that we do, everything that we think, and everything that we are. And molding that is the ultimate skill, I think.

Pete Mockaitis
Whew, that’s good stuff and worthy of chewing on and reflecting upon in depth. I know we’re at our last few minutes, but I want to hear two quick things from you. One, tracking goal progress, something that you’re into, you write about. Do you have any favorite principles or tactics or systems in that zone?

Chris Bailey
Oh, yeah, tracking your goal pace is one of my favorites. So, I use this whenever I write a book, where I make a spreadsheet. Two lines. One is my pace line and the other is my progress line. And it works for any cumulative goal, miles ran, for example. And all you do is you print it off and so you track between today and your target day.

You have a pace, say you want your book to be 70,000 words, so you have the pace line that goes up at this beautiful linear pace. And then you have your actual word count relative to that. Simple tactic, but incredibly helpful for goal tracking.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve made the spreadsheet myself in many contexts.

Chris Bailey
Oh, man, we’re living the same life, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, absolutely.

Chris Bailey
Same pen, same mic, same sheet.

Pete Mockaitis
And you have said it a few times, and I love it, that any productivity intervention must earn back the time that you spend on it, or else it is counterproductive. Since I like to talk about favorite things at the end of each episode, can you share with us a couple favorite tools, tactics, productivity interventions that just crush it on this metric of yours?

Chris Bailey
Okay, I feel I’ve mentioned this on a previous one, but it’s five years ago, so maybe your listenership has cycled out or something. No, they’re probably still out here.

Pete Mockaitis
Never. They’re still there. They’re still there.

Chris Bailey
Yeah, okay. Hey, everybody, again, I hope you remember me five years ago. Rule of three. At the start of each day, fast forward to the end of the day, what three things will you want to have accomplished? It’s my favorite intention setting ritual. I do it every day, every week, every year, so that when I do my daily intentions, they can feed into the weekly and the yearly ones. They all work together like beautiful magic.

Tools. Tools. Man, you know what? I’m going analog these days. I love having a physical book, because I feel my eyes are glazing over from looking at screens all day long, and just practicing a bit of interstitial journaling between tasks. It allows me to really just reflect for one short little paragraph, “What do I really want to get out of what I’m going to do next?” So, an analog pen, of course, the Pilot Precise V5 or V7 RT.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. All right. Well, any final thoughts, Chris?

Chris Bailey
After looking at the research on intentionality, I used to think intention is beautiful, and you see how complicated it is. And it’s in that complicatedness that I think we see our humanness, right? And so, I really think that it’s intentionality that makes us human.

And by connecting with that, you know, talked a lot about deliberate intent, we got to love our defaults, too. They’re who we are. They make up our values. Love your defaults and then you can layer on even better goals, better intentions on top of those.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Chris, thank you.

Dec 22
0

2025 GREATS: 1066: How to Thrive When Your Resilience Runs Out with Dr. Tasha Eurich

By | Podcasts | No Comments

Tasha Eurich shares why pushing through sometimes isn’t enough–and how to bounce back stronger than ever.

You’ll Learn

  1. The hidden costs of “grit gaslighting”
  2. How to know when you’ve hit your “resilience ceiling”
  3. The three needs that unlocks the best version of yourself

About Tasha

Dr. Tasha Eurich is an organizational psychologist, researcher, and New York Times best-selling author (Shatterproof, Insight, Bankable Leadership).

She helps people thrive in a changing world by becoming the best of who they are and what they do. With a PhD in Industrial-Organizational Psychology, Tasha is the principal of The Eurich Group, a boutique consultancy that helps successful executives succeed when the stakes are high.

As an author and sought-after speaker in the self-improvement space, Tasha is a candid yet compassionate voice. Pairing her scientific grounding with 20+ years of experience on the corporate front lines, she reveals the often-surprising secrets to success and fulfillment in the 21st century.

Resources Mentioned

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Tasha Eurich Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Tasha, welcome back.

Tasha Eurich
It’s so great to be back, Pete. Thanks for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well, it is great to be chatting with you. I am excited to talk about the insights of your book, Shatterproof. I listened to it in its entirety and then had to get the text as well. And there’s so much good stuff to get into. Maybe, could you orient us a little bit? You’ve mentioned that this is the book that you needed as well, and that’s the first time this has happened for you in your author journey. Can you expand a little bit about the health backstory and how that plays into this?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah, I mean, I think my last book I needed. I needed to become more self-aware, even though I didn’t know it when I first started out. But when I say I needed this book, in the context of becoming shatterproof, it was literally, it felt like a matter of life and death. And I look back and I know that it was.

And basically, the very, very short story is I’ve had a lifetime of mysterious health ailments that nobody could diagnose, that nobody really thought was real, like all the tests would come back normal. And I did my best to manage, resiliently, to push through, to power through, to be the fifth-generation entrepreneur that I am, and suck it up and keep going.

And starting in early 2021, when the world was starting to recover from COVID, I started getting very, very sick. And within a couple of months, I was bed bound. I had 10 out of 10 pain every day. My resting heart rate was 150 beats per minute. I was fainting all the time. I couldn’t remember what I had done 10 minutes ago or even the names of my family or my longtime friends.

And the way I started to cope with this was what I’ve always done, right? Which is, you and I were joking about our resilience spreadsheets. I had my list of practices: gratitude, yoga as much as I could, social support, reaching out, telling my husband at the time what I felt and what I thought, trying to reframe challenges as opportunities, and active coping.

I went to every single specialist under the sun, and I couldn’t help but feel like I was having more anxiety than I’d ever had before. I was more depressed than I ever was before. And, eventually, I had the experience that I eventually uncovered, as a researcher, kind of along right around the same time, where I hit my resilience ceiling, which means I sort of lost all ability to cope, and the tools that I’ve been using my entire life stopped working.

And so, I was in a position where I knew there was an alternative because we had this in our data. Some people are able to take the hardest things that happen to them and become better, stronger, wiser. And finding that answer was so personal to me that, you know, I probably spent longer on it than I would have.

I think I was able to dig into, like, the complexity of the solution and tried to make it simple. So, simplicity on the other side of complexity. But the point there was, I think no matter what all of us are facing, we all need this book. We all need an alternative to resiliently powering through, being mentally tough. There’s a point at which that doesn’t help us anymore. And if we keep trying to do it, it hurts us.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Very well said. You had a lovely quote. It’s ascribed as a Chinese proverb. Can you give it to us about when the wind blows?

Tasha Eurich
“When the winds of change rage, some people build shelters and others build windmills.”

Pete Mockaitis
And I think that just viscerally paints a picture of what’s unique and fresh and lovely about your work here. Because we just recently had Dr. Aditi Nerurkar on sharing about the five resets, and that’s all very good. Yes, indeed, exercise is great. Breathing is good.

Tasha Eurich
And if it helps, yeah, keep doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
Gratitude journaling and such. Like, these are all great, great uses of things to do to feel better, to overcome some stuff. But that shift from shelter to windmill, I think really, really captures it. Because that’s how it can feel sometimes, like, “Oh, man, I’m getting battered. Well, I got to exercise more. I got to breathe more. I got to do some more yoga.” Yeah.

And as you identify, sometimes that just runs out, it’s like, “Oh,” and that’s a spooky feeling, just like, “Uh-oh.”

Tasha Eurich
It is. It is. And what I’ve found, in talking to high achieving-people, you know, of kind of all walks of life, is it is the most distressing for the strongest people because we look back, and we say, “Gosh, maybe this isn’t even the hardest thing I’ve ever been through,” which was the case for me. I’m like, “Why can’t I just show up with my gratitude journal and do my meditation and find some relief?”

And then you start to do something that I called grit gaslighting, right, which is where we blame ourselves for struggling under the weight of the very real difficulty of living in this world in the year 2025.

And so, yeah, I think, especially for high-achieving people like your listeners, part of what I want to do with this conversation is normalize that you are not failing at resilience. You are hitting your resilient ceiling, and everyone has one.

Pete Mockaitis
And, boy, the grit gaslighting is something sometimes I even do to myself, it’s like, “Oh, come on, Pete. Like, I mean, your business is like stellar. Compare this to, like, seven years ago, man. Like, this is great. You’ve got three wonderful children, a wonderful wife, a nice house.”

It’s like things seem like they’re rocking here, and I have been through some tough stuff, and then, throughout history, it seems like folks had it way tougher. You read about the folks fighting the Revolutionary Wars, like, “Oh, jeez.”

Tasha Eurich
Yeah, “What am I whining about, for God’s sake?”

Pete Mockaitis
And yet, and I don’t want to linger too much here because it’s kind of like the nonfiction, the obligatory nonfiction book intro, “Today is, like, so difficult and unprecedented, and that’s why this book is exactly what you must buy.” So, I mean, in a way, that’s quite obvious.

Tasha Eurich
And yet it is.

Pete Mockaitis
So, if we could maybe briefly hit us with, “Okay, why could we be okay with being not okay in the current climate? And why are we not just weenie babies who can’t tough it out? Like, the folks fighting the Revolutionary War or dealing with ‘real hardship’”?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah, like Marvel characters and business casual, right? So, there is a thing, so I’m a scientist. I am a quantitative scientist at heart. And when I first started this research program five years ago, I wanted to answer that question. Because what I was seeing all around me, and I’ve been coaching CEOs for 20 years, was a completely new level of exhaustion, chaos, stress, demands, and not just professionally, personally, in all of their lives, and in my life, too.

And so, what I wanted to see was, like, empirically, was that true or did it just feel that way? And I stumbled upon this excellent, very, very sort of scientific metric called the World Uncertainty Index. And it uses a variety of factors to come up with every year, basically, and it plots the level of uncertainty.

And what I thought I would find was kind of crazy, like, after 9/11, it went down; went kind of crazy during the Great Recession, maybe went down; COVID, it spiked, went down. But what I found was, like, a pretty consistent high level of uncertainty until 2023, 2024, and it went like this, “Boop!” exponentially higher.

And when I show it, when I get to speak about this book, and I show it to audiences, people’s eyes get wide, and they go, “Oh, it’s not just me.” And so, I think you’re right. There is always the sort of drama of the beginning of a nonfiction book. But, for me, as a scientist, like, it’s real. You’re not imagining it. It’s real.

Pete Mockaitis
So, the Uncertainty Index, and it’s intriguing. So, 2023, 2024, it doesn’t seem like anything happened. Or, am I overlooking something that happened?

Tasha Eurich
Well, it’s worth going to their website to look. It really gets crazy this year, which is interesting, right?

Pete Mockaitis
With AI, that’s kind of wild.

Tasha Eurich
AI is pretty wild. In the business world or organizations, a lot of sectors are being disrupted that people never thought would be disrupted because of a lot of external factors, and the effects of COVID are still being felt. I think all of that together, along with just the pace of life. Like, think about right now, at this moment, the number of people that need something from you.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, geez, I don’t want to.

Tasha Eurich
Right? Like, if I think about that too hard, I start to flip out because it’s like, “Oh, well, this thing I was supposed to have to them a month ago, and this other thing.” And so, even something as “simple” as the cumulative demands, they don’t stop. Like, nobody’s saying, “Well, I’m going to just really need all this stuff from you, and then I’ll go away, and you can go on vacation for three weeks.” So, that’s the piece of it, is the chronic compounding stress across multiple areas of our lives.

Pete Mockaitis
That really gets me. And I’m thinking about the email inbox, which I struggle with. My buddy, Brent, shout out, listener, sent me one of those Someecards, it said, “Congratulations on hitting inbox zero. Oh, sorry about that.”

Tasha Eurich
Brent for the win. That’s awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s how it is, like, “Oh, yeah. Oh, at this very moment, I am caught up. Oh!” And it lasted about nine   seconds.

Tasha Eurich
That is such a great example of this, right? It’s, like, this is Sisyphean, for anybody who’s into philosophy. We’re pushing that boulder up and the boulder rolls right down, and we’re back to zero.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, I guess we got that in terms of modern humans. The folks who had their own challenges of poverty, starvation, war, extreme challenges, no doubt that is brutal. We, however, have our own flavor of brutality being waged upon us that they did not. And it’s so unprecedentedly high levels of uncertainty. And you mentioned in your book that we humans have a real hard time with a lot of uncertainty. What’s that about?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah. So, human beings were not designed for the world that we live in right now. If you think about it, our ancestors were, you know, their lives were difficult. They’re sort of hunting and gathering. They don’t have the comforts that we have now. But they were punctuated by danger, but things would sort of go back to normal.

So, you imagine you’re out hunting, and you see a tiger, and your stress system goes crazy, your cortisol goes up, all of your stress hormones, your fight or flight, and you’re able to escape the tiger. And then you go on with your day, and you go back home, and you have a nice night by the campfire. But the way that we are living now is our bodies actually are built to perceive a passive-aggressive email from our boss, for example, as that tiger running towards us.

And then if you multiply that email with all of the other emails just in your inbox, we have stress hormones coursing through our bodies all the time. So, we were sort of designed to have that danger, go back to normal, and our bodies can restore themselves. But what I say in the book is living in perpetual fight or flight mode isn’t just stressful, it drains the very resources we need to cope with stress.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s brutal. So, the traditional resilience practices are useful. They have their place and they do some things, and yet they can run out. And you reveal there is another path for us. What’s the path?

Tasha Eurich
So, the best way to think about it is to contrast it with resilience, okay? So, resilience is about putting our heads down, powering through so that we can bounce back. And that’s really important. So, resilience is the capacity to bounce back after hard things. That’s kind of the agreed upon consensus in, at least, for researchers.

What becoming shatterproof means is proactively channeling adversity to grow forward. And we don’t do that by powering through our pain. We do it actually by harnessing the broken parts of ourselves to access the best version of ourselves. And there’s a great analogy, like conceptually, and we’ll talk about what that looks like practically, but, conceptually, have you ever heard of the Japanese art of Kintsugi?

Pete Mockaitis
I have a couple of times. Why don’t you paint the picture?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah, so it’s this beautiful art form where the artist repairs a broken piece of, usually, it’s like pottery or ceramic, with lacquer and precious metal. It’s usually gold. And, basically, like, mending broken objects with precious metal. What that does is it creates a whole new object that is stronger at its broken places.

And the question I always ask is, like, “Instead of powering through our pain and our cracks and our breaking points, what if those became fodder for us to identify what in our environment is tripping us up?” to understand, “What are the needs that we have that are going unmet? What are the self-limiting patterns that we’re showing up with that are making things worse for ourselves? And then how can we actually use that opportunity to pivot?”

And not change everything about who we are, but to try to find new ways of getting our needs met? That’s the idea, is kind of leaning into those cracks, not in a way where we’re pain shopping or anything of that nature, but to lean into those cracks as an opportunity for, you know, I say it’s self-awareness walking.

It’s finding those moments in our worst times where we can find unique insight about ourselves, how we interact with our environment, how we make our choices, how we live our life, so that we can access that best version of ourselves. And I think that’s what we all do, right?

All we want is to be happy and to enjoy our lives, and to find that version of us that we know is there, but that feels like it’s being, you know, it’s handcuffed to a furnace somewhere, and, like, locked up because of all the chaos that can’t come out.

So, that’s kind of the contrast between resilience and shatterproof is don’t just grit your teeth and push through to gain back a status quo that probably wasn’t that good anyway. Use this as fodder for self-examination and self-improvement. And that’s the contrast I make is it’s bouncing back for resilience. When you’re shatterproof, you grow forward.

Pete Mockaitis
Now, when you say needs, you’ve identified the three to thrive. Can you share what are these needs? And how, of all the needs we might have, Tasha, do we know these are the three to thrive?

Tasha Eurich
Yes. Well, the good news is it is not I who has uncovered these needs. It is hundreds of researchers over more than a half century that have been researching this theory, that it’s actually my favorite theory in psychology. It always has been, and I’ve worked with it, gosh, 20 more years ago in grad school. It’s dating me. It’s called self-determination theory.

And the theory itself asks a really simple question that I think is so unbelievably practical, it’s, “What brings out the best in humans? And what brings out the beast in humans?” And what they’ve identified, and the main researchers are Richard Ryan and Edward Deci, is that there are three biologically programmed psychological needs that every single human existing on earth is programmed to seek.

I’ll tell you what they are, and then I’ll tell you what happens when we get them and when we don’t get them. So, the needs are, number one is confidence, and that’s the need to feel like we’re doing well and we’re getting better. We’re kind of showing up. We’re meeting challenges.

The second is choice. And what that’s about is feeling a sense of agency in our lives, as well as authenticity, “I can be who I am. I can be centered around my values. I don’t have to pretend or fake.” The third need is connection. And that’s a sense that we belong, and that we have close and mutually supportive relationships.

And what they found, these researchers in self-determination theory, is when these three needs are met, we are the best version of ourselves. No matter what is happening in our lives, no matter what fresh chaos is erupting around us, we can rise to the occasion.

But when any one of these needs are, especially, actively frustrated, not just unmet, but being frustrated by the situation we’re in, that’s what brings out the worst version of ourselves, the reactive version, the person that falls back into comfortable but self-limiting habits in the face of these sorts of triggers all around us.

And so, it’s so interesting because, when I was doing this research, it took me a couple of years. It took our research team of 12 people a couple of years to finally figure out that that was what separated shatterproof people from everyone else, was this idea that, “If I’m not getting my needs met in my environment, I need to find new ways of crafting them myself.”

And it sounds so simple. But if you think about the world we live in, that’s sometimes cast as selfish, right? Like, “Well, why are you meeting your own needs when everybody needs something from you?” And it’s the opposite, right? When our biologically programmed psychological needs are met, we become better for ourselves and better for everyone. We can be a better spouse, a better parent, a better employee, a better leader.

So, I think we sort of get it wrong. It’s like the idea that, “I’ll finally be happy when…” It’s like, “I can finally focus on my needs when…” But you have to reverse the equation. That’s where you have to start.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think this is so powerful, and I find it reassuring. It took y’all a couple of years to get into it. It’s because I think that many of us have probably dealt with that question, like, “Man, what’s my deal? Like, why can’t I just be awesome like I was last year or whenever?”

Tasha Eurich
Yup.

Pete Mockaitis
I mean, it’s sort of like mysterious. And yet, when you just look very clearly, it’s like, “All right. Well, let’s see. Well, how well are my needs, these needs being met – my needs for confidence, my needs for choice, my needs for connection.” It’s, like, “Oh, well, that’s my deal. That is my deal. There it is, right there.”

Okay. And so then, I would love to hear, within the research, because I’ve heard different typologies for needs. So, we got Forrest Hanson and his resilience book, talking about safety, satisfaction, and connection. So, I see some overlap. And I remember my teenage idol, Tony Robbins, had a rundown of, like, six. Like, certainty, uncertainty, significance.

So, could you maybe expand a bit about, so self-determination theory, what’s some of the most compelling evidence that, “Yup, these are the three as opposed to not nine, not maybe this other thing over here. But, no, no, focus on these three”?

Tasha Eurich
So, I want to differentiate between self-determination theory and every other theory of human needs.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Tasha Eurich
Self-determination theory. The first paper was published the year I was born, 1980. And if you go to Google Scholar, and you type in self-determination theory, it is article after article after article where, and it’s, actually, it’s not even a theory. They call it a meta theory.

There are so many facets to it that have been rigorously empirically supported that it sort of rises above any theory of needs as a meta theory. So, Abraham Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Everybody sees that as like the end all, be all, of human needs. There is almost no empirical research to back that up. So, it’s one thing to have a model. It’s another thing to have 50-plus years of rigorous empirical research being done by hundreds and hundreds of well-respected academicians.

And from my standpoint, there’s just no comparison. And, again, it doesn’t mean that we can’t pull from multiple theories. But I think about, you know, I talk about this in the book, a CEO I was coaching as I was writing the book, was leading his company through this massive organizational transformation. He and his wife were caring for aging parents. There was so much going on, and he didn’t have a sense of confidence.

His board was at his throat all the time. His employees were unhappy. Everyone was just saying, like, “Why can’t you be doing this better?” He had very little choice, which is strange as a CEO, but he was constrained by so many things. He was constrained by the health challenges that he was helping to manage.

And then connection, you know, it’s lonely at the top. It’s shockingly lonely. And he would always say, “I’m fine. I’m fine. I’m fine,” and I knew he wasn’t fine. And one day, he called me and, he was like, “Guess what happened? I just got on a call with my team and, like, through the most minor thing that just happened, I started screaming at them. So, I guess I’m not fine, right? I guess I’m not fine.”

And he said, “I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” And my response is the response that I would give all of your listeners and that I try to remember myself, which is, “There’s nothing wrong with you. You are a human being whose biologically programmed needs are under threat. And what that’s telling your body is you’re being chased by a tiger.”

So, the good news is there are ways to move through that. But the way, one way to not move through that is to resiliently power through.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. Thank you. You mentioned Nietzsche said, “Whatever doesn’t kill us makes us stronger.” And you mentioned in Nietzsche’s, in fact, very own life, he disproved that shortly after writing it. Can you tell us that tale? And then unpack, well, what does determine whether or not an injury makes us stronger or weaker?

Tasha Eurich
I love that question. It really gets to the heart of it. So, this is probably my favorite story in the book. Nietzsche, what I tried to do is trace that expression, “What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger,” as early as I possibly could. And I found in one of his books that was published in the late 1800s

And so, he published “That which does not kill me makes me stronger.” A month later, he was strolling through a square in Turin, and he came across a horrible scene, a man beating a horse. And for some reason, something snapped in Nietzsche at that moment. Something just snapped. He started hysterically crying. He rushed over.

He threw his arms around the horse. People started gathering. The crowd started gathering. The police were called. Someone was sent to, like, escort him home. And the next day, he was taken to what they called, at the time, an asylum and basically went mad, and he never emerged again. So, what I think is so powerful about that story is saying things, saying things that sound right or that sound good, doesn’t always make them true.

And I think we have to start pressure testing some of this commonly held wisdom about navigating adversity, “Does it sound good or is it actually the right advice?” And I think that, to answer the second part of your question, if I boil it down, the difference between resilient people and shatterproof people, the most fundamental difference is instead of powering through, they use that opportunity to proactively reinvent themselves.

In other words, pausing, observing, looking at some of the things within themselves that might not be the best things, and then intentionally pivoting to find, as we were talking about, new ways of meeting our needs. But I think it’s this orientation of, you know, “There’s got to be a better way. And even if I don’t know what it is, I’m going to set out on this path.”

And, by the way, I give four steps of the shatterproof roadmap in the book, “I’m going to set out on this path to build a better me and what might be one of my worst moments.”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, we love bettering here at How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Tasha Eurich
Better is great.

Pete Mockaitis
And you mentioned that personal growth, self-betterment, is just about the tops, a way that we can find positive psychological outcomes. Can you expand on that?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah. So, I talk about, I call it the shatterproof six. And there, in the book, is a list of empirically supported goals that if we start however small, like whatever small step we take, but if we start to pursue them, we’ll meet our deepest psychological needs. Those three to thrive needs that we talked about.

And self-development is one of them. Especially, if our need for confidence is being frustrated, if we commit to personal growth, to expanding our horizons, what the research in self-determination theory shows us is, just by pursuing that goal and by asking, “What’s one step I can take today to get a little bit closer to feeling confident and, like, the best version of myself?” that feeds our needs no matter what’s happening in the situation around us.

And I don’t say that lightly. There’s been research showing that three to thrive need satisfaction works for people who are living in extreme poverty or who are refugees. There’s one really compelling study that was done with Syrian refugees, that showed that a really simple intervention where they pursue these sorts of need-based goals, their entire lives get better. And not in a sort of toxic positivity way, but you start to feel real fulfillment that feeds you during these tough times.

Pete Mockaitis
So, let’s walk us through this four-part process.

Tasha Eurich
So, the first step is to probe your pain. And what that means, in a nutshell, is to pause and say, “Pushing through my pain or avoiding it is going to give me temporary relief, but there’s two problems.”

Number one is this thing researchers have called negativity rebounds, which means that when we sort of deny the emotional reality that we’re experiencing, especially when it’s really negative, we’re okay for a minute, and then it comes back in full force. So, that’s the first problem.

The second problem with not paying attention to our pain is we’re missing really valuable data, right? So, the question to ask is, well, there’s two. The first is, “In the last week, what are the negative emotions that I’ve been experiencing that are kind of higher than my baseline? So, maybe I’ve been feeling a lot more shame recently, or I’ve felt anger, or I felt sadness.”

And then the second question is, “What is that pain trying to tell me?” So, for me in my health journey, I sort of, I hit my resilience ceiling, I gave up for a couple months, it was not pretty. But one day, I kind of woke up and I started asking myself this question, like, “What am I feeling? I’m feeling helpless. I’m feeling powerless.”

And what I realized was my pain is trying to tell me that I have totally lost control over my life, right? There’s no cavalry that’s going to come save me. I have to save myself. So, that leads us to the second step, which there’s so much richness to this, but again, I’m going to try to boil it down, which is trace our triggers.

So, we look internally first at our pain. Then the next thing we have to do is say, “Okay, what is happening in the world around me that is sort of creating this internal state?” And sometimes we don’t help, but almost always there’s going to be some kind of external trigger. So, it might be, and there’s different triggers for different need frustration.

Someone might have criticized us, hurts our confidence. We might have a micromanaging boss, which hurts our choice. We might have recently ended a relationship, which kills our connection. And so, once we have that trigger, we’re not done. We don’t just get to blame it on everything external. We have to go back inside and say, “Okay, what need is that trigger getting in the way of?”

So, for me, what I realized was the trigger was sort of just being pushed through this healthcare system that is designed for patient volume and not patient helping, right, and being told over and over that what I was experiencing wasn’t real. And that was triggering my choice need. I was massively undernourished in the choice department, and I wasn’t helping myself.

So, that’s actually what leads us to step three, which is to spot your shadows. What happens in the face of triggers, what happens in the face of need frustration, is we have these instinctive responses that feel helpful, but that are actually pushing us further and further away from our need. So, in my example, I was, and I talk about different ways these shadows can show up in the book, but just as an example, I was giving up.

So, there’s some of them that are really counterintuitive. Like, “Why would I, when I’m totally powerless, when by the way, I make a living bossing around CEOs, why would I give up? It makes no sense.” But what I’m doing there is sort of, like, assuming that I’m not going to be able to fix it, and conserving energy, and saying, “I’m not a doctor, I can’t diagnose my rare disease, so I’m just going to sort of go along to get along.”

But what that shadow was doing was leading me further away from a solution. So, the question I always tell people to ask if you’re trying to spot your shadows is, “How is my behavior right now different from when I’m at my best?” And the example that I just gave is a good one, of like, “Normally I do this, but right now I’m doing this.”

So, that brings us to step four, which is pick your pivot. Pivoting means proactively moving away from these familiar shadows that make us feel better, and towards new paths to need fulfillment. And we do that through something called need crafting. And the good news, for step four, is we sort of already talked about this, right? These shatterproof six or the goals, where if we say, for me, like as an example, instead of letting myself give up, my number one goal in life is maximizing my physical health.

And that’s one of the goals that’s been shown that if we pursue, we will have greater need fulfillment, specifically in this case with choice. So, what did I start to do? I changed the way I was showing up. I changed the way I was engaging with doctors. I spent 30 minutes, this is pre-ChatGPT, I spent 30 minutes a day researching rare diseases.

And, eventually, it took me a minute, a couple months, but then I had a list of these are the diseases that I might have. And then I finally had like the one that I knew I had, and I started changing the way I engaged in doctor’s appointments. I would show up with a summary, with a list of objectives. And they would open their mouth and I would say, “Thank you so much for being a participant in my care. Here’s what I would like to accomplish in this appointment.”

And some of them didn’t like it and I had to find new doctors, but I had to become the CEO of my medical journey. And the beauty of this process, just to kind of put a period on the end of a sentence, is, it wasn’t right away, because I had to find the right specialist, but within a few months, I finally had the diagnosis that I knew that I had through my research, which is something called Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which is a genetic connective tissue disease where your body can’t produce the two proteins that are in every system of your body.

And so, it leads to these really kind of unrelated, confusing symptoms that usually show up as normal in diagnostics. And I can say with 100% certainty, that if I had not discovered this in our research, I certainly wouldn’t be here talking to you. I’m not sure I’d be here at all. And if I was here, I would be a shadow of my former self.

And so, when I tell people this works, there is no better way for me to share that than to say, “You know, I didn’t sort of find this as a dispassionate researcher. I found it as a human being whose life felt like it depended on these solutions.” So, that, my friend, is the shatterproof roadmap.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful.

Tasha Eurich
So, there are six kinds of overall objectives. And then, for each of them, there’s a couple of options. So, the first is to rise. And that is making myself better. We already talked about self-development. That’s a perfect example of a shatterproof goal. And those, again, are largely geared towards building confidence.

The second kind of category is to flourish. And that’s making my life better. The health goal that I mentioned is in that category. Something as simple as joy, like rediscovering the love of the game by immersing myself in something I like to do. The third is to activate. Oh, and by the way, sorry, flourish mainly focuses on rebuilding choice, as does the third, which is activate, and that’s kind of making things happen around us.

And I’ll give a couple of examples, because this kind of has different flavors. One of them is advocacy, right, speaking up for myself, making my needs known. Another one is agency, making my own choices, being my own person.

Then we’ve got another choice-based aim, which is to align. And that’s kind of making authentic choices. The best example of a goal under this is authenticity. It’s not going along to get along. It’s not sort of pretending to be something that I’m not. It’s expressing my values and showing up as who I really am.

And then the last two shift over to connection. So, if your connection is thwarted, you might decide to relate, which means that you’re making meaningful connections. I’ll give you a couple examples under this because I think it’s so rich.

One is closeness. So, that’s kind of deepening close relationships by giving and getting support. It might be reactivating a connection that you’ve kind of let slide because of your busy, stressed out, striver lifestyle. Or you might choose forgiveness. Letting go of old grudges, not for them, but for my own wellbeing.

And then another one I really like under this is spirituality. Whatever that looks like to you, religious or not religious, connecting to something greater than ourselves is kind of a powerful but underutilized way of maximizing connection.

The sixth, and final shatterproof kind of category, is contribute, making the world better. And when we engage in service, we’re actually powerfully meeting all three needs. So, you think about Adam Grant’s work when he wrote Give and Take, his first kind of big mega hit book.

There is so much behind that, where when we give, when we contribute to the greater good, when we try to make positive change, it’s satisfying our deepest fundamental human needs. So, when we give, we get. And I think that’s why it’s the one objective that meets all three needs.

Pete Mockaitis
And is it your recommendation that we pick a single goal?

Tasha Eurich
Yes. My goodness, yes. Sometimes people are shocked when I tell them that, in my job of coaching CEOs, we pick one behavior to work on, one high-impact behavior for an entire year. And everyone’s like, “Well, I mean, could that possibly be helpful? Why don’t you do more?” And the reason is, in my experience, if we have any more than one thing we’re trying to focus on developmentally, we’re not going to do it.

I’m coaching a CFO right now who brought me his development plan that we were going to kind of blow up and rethink, and he’s like, “It has five components.” And I covered up the paper, and I said, “Name them.” He couldn’t name a single one. And we both laughed. We said, “Uh-oh.” So, that’s why making your growth and development easy isn’t a crime. It’s a present to your future self.

So, one shatterproof goal, even break it down to one shatterproof habit. Like, for me, it was those 30 minutes a day researching rare diseases. Start there. Keep it something that you can regularly focus on. And that’s something that you go crazy on for a week and then get so overwhelmed that it becomes the last thing on your list.

Pete Mockaitis
And could you give us some more examples of a single behavior of a senior executive for a whole year, just so I get a sense for the scope of a “behavior”?

Tasha Eurich
So, I’ll give you one from someone I just got off the phone with who is doing an amazing job. He’s killing it. His CEO is thrilled, which is improve collaboration with open-mindedness and empathy.

And sometimes it’s even simpler than that. Sometimes it’s, “Listen better.” But if you think about it, if you’re a CEO and you’re not very good at listening and, all of a sudden, you start listening to people, the ripple effects are endless, right? So, I think it’s counterintuitive, but as long as you’re picking something that, in this case, like, your stakeholders are saying is limiting you, it can have a bigger impact than we think.

And I think we just try to overcomplicate development because we’re all type A overachievers, but that’s not how breakthroughs happen, in my experience.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And just to follow this through a little bit more, if we did pick listen better or whatever, what might that mean in terms of, is it a daily behavior that we settle in on next or what’s the very next step?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah, so this is kind of getting away from the shatterproof framework, but I think this is a great way of operationalizing it. Usually, what we’ll do is we’ll come up with that development goal, and then we’ll have an action plan that is 10 to 12 specific behavioral elements that they’re going to try to do every day.

So, it might be specific to a certain relationship. It might be how to show up in meetings. Like, the executive I just mentioned, his goal of improving collaboration is asking a question before he provides his opinion. Like, that level of specificity. Or, “Making sure that I find something to agree with before I disagree with someone.” So, it’s 10 to 12 things like that, and then we actually track them.

Most of my clients have a checklist every day. And this is from the Marshall Goldsmith School, “Did I do my best to listen before I talk?” “Did I do my best to amplify others’ contributions?” So, yeah, breaking it down into that level of detail, I think is, again, it feels tedious. It feels something. But that’s how change happens.

And the data are there, like, that process on its own. There’s a reason I have a money back guarantee. If I’m coaching a senior executive and there isn’t quantitative improvement in their targeted behavior as rated by their stakeholders, theoretically, never had to do it, they get their money back. So, that is how serious I am about this process and how much it works.

I think there’s going to come a day when it’s going to happen, right? And that’s what it’s going to be, but I’ve been doing this for 20 years now.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so then, when we were talking about the operationalizing, so if we’re zeroing in, it’s like, “Okay, betterment is the thing.” And then I’ll maybe take another step of specificity into, it could be fitness, it could be listening. You sort of, then, identify a sort of specific daily thing that you’re going to be getting after.

Tasha Eurich
That’s it. And it is not a crime to make it simple, easy, and fast. For me, 30 minutes a day, that’s all I had to do. And I talk about other examples in the book of people who maybe had a little bit more, like, resources mentally and physically at the time. Like, I talk about one woman who had five sort of daily habits, but they were really simple.

It was, like, “Wake up.” She had just gotten out of a really toxic marriage. And one of the things on her list was, “Wake up every day, grateful for the freedom that I now have,” right? Or, “Make sure I ping one or both of my sons and tell them how much I love them.” And all these things to kind of reconnect with herself and her life beyond her ex. I think if we keep it simple, it’s even easier.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And that’s just the magic. I’m thinking now about the 80/20 Rule, in general. So, in terms of, if we have in the entire universe of what’s your malfunction, what’s your deal in life, it’s like, “Oh, okay. Well, hey, it’s within the zone of the psychological needs of confidence, choice, or connection.” It’s like, “Okay, we’re already eliminated a lot of noise.”

Tasha Eurich
We have.

Pete Mockaitis
But even further, we got, “Okay, hey, it’s choice. Choice is the thing.” And then we can get even, even further, it’s like, “By golly, I’m going to be renovating this house I hate,” or whatever.

Tasha Eurich
Whatever, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And that, in fact, can become transformational.

Tasha Eurich
Over time, like, think about it. If you get one percent closer every day to a full sense of confidence or choice or connection, and if you do that most days, I’m a realist, not all days, most days, you’re going to see some pretty significant improvement in a shorter amount of time than you think.

Pete Mockaitis
Fantastic! Well, Tasha, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we hear about a few of your favorite things?

Tasha Eurich
Oh, one thing that I want to mention, because it’s very cool and it’s in service for your listeners, is if anybody is curious about that idea of my resilience ceiling and how close am I to my resilience ceiling, for the launch of Shatterproof, we put together, it’s a really cool tool. It takes about five minutes. It’s an online survey.

You actually have the option of sending it to someone who knows you well, if you want their perspective on how you are kind of showing up, and you get a report back showing you your overall, like, how close you are. You get dimension scores. You get tools. So, if anybody wants to take that, I’m sure you’ll put it in your show notes, but it’s totally free, no strings attached. It’s Resilience-Quiz.com.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Now can you share a favorite quote that you find inspiring?

Tasha Eurich
“Whatever you do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it.” And I love this quote so much by Goethe, it is tattooed on my body. So, that’s my favorite quote.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study?

Tasha Eurich
Well, I would go, just because it’s fresh in my mind, but that study that I talked about with Syrian refugees and need crafting, this whole idea of crafting our own needs is so new in the research. It took a brilliant young woman named Nele Laporte to kind of introduce it in 2019. But there’s so much promising research around that. I just think it’s so powerful.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Tasha Eurich
I would say nonfiction is Doris Kearns Goodwin’s A Team of Rivals. And I would say fiction, without question, number one, The Great Gatsby.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Tasha Eurich
Favorite tool, ooh, we didn’t talk about this, the 222 tool. So, when you are super overwhelmed, you feel like you’re hitting your resilience ceiling, you take a deliberate time out. You ask yourself, “What do I need in the next two minutes, two hours, and two days?” So, the two minutes is psychological first aid. It’s breathing. It’s splashing cold water on your face. It’s saying out loud, like, “I am struggling and I feel overwhelmed.”

Two hours is something that is just for you, something that makes you happy, that relieves the pressure a little bit. Netflix marathon, happy hour with a friend, going to the gym. Two days is a deliberate pause on ruminating, analyzing, and problem-solving, as much as possible, with the thing that’s pushed you to this point.

I use this tool all the time and what I find is, because our subconscious mind is still working on it, but if we give ourselves the space to just relax and be, when we come back to it, not only have we helped a little bit with our need satisfaction, we usually have a better perspective on the problem. So, again, the 222 method, I use a shockingly large amount of days. I think I’m on, like, three by now, so. yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite habit?

Tasha Eurich
My favorite habit is drinking water.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that people really resonate with, they respond to, they retweet in your speeches and such?

Tasha Eurich
Yeah, the grit gaslighting idea seems to be really resonating with people. It’s giving language and permission to experience something that, I think, we shame ourselves for.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Tasha Eurich
Oh, goodness, I’m everywhere. TashaEurich.com. Every social media. I’m trying to build my Instagram, so if anybody wants to come hop on there with me, that would be amazing. But, yes, very findable.

Pete Mockaitis
And a final challenge or call to action for someone looking to become awesome at their job?

Tasha Eurich
Two-part question, “What would the best version of you do? And what if you could be you, but better?”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Tasha, thank you. This was fantastic.

Tasha Eurich
Thank you so much. Great to be here again with you.