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678: How to Win Trust and Connect Masterfully with Riaz Meghji

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Riaz Meghji says: "There's two teachers in the room in any conversation."

Riaz Meghji reveals the key behaviors that lead to more meaningful connections.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The one trick to becoming a better listener 
  2. Where to draw the line between vulnerability and oversharing 
  3. How to be assertively empathetic 

About Riaz

Riaz Meghji is a Human Connection Expert. He has 17 years of broadcast television experience, and, during his time as host on Citytv’s Breakfast Television, MTV Canada, TEDxVancouver, CTV News, and the Toronto International Film Festival, has interviewed thousands of experts about human connection and collaboration, undertaking critical training that helped shape the tangible takeaways he shares in his new book, Every Conversation Counts 

Resources mentioned in the show:

 

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Riaz Meghji Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Riaz, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Riaz Meghji
Pete, it is good to be with you, man. Thanks for having me on.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I’m excited to talk. And I also want to hear, you’ve got a story, you’ve got some Canadian TV background, and another Canadian star, Eugene Levy. I understand there’s a story involving you, him, and eyebrows. Tell us about it.

Riaz Meghji
I love it. This is what happens when you fill out the questionnaire beforehand, “Tell me some tidbits of where we can go.” Eugene Levy, a national treasure here in Canada, and he was filming a cameo role on a sitcom called Package Deal which was being filmed in Vancouver, British Columbia, where I am right now, and we had a chance to go on set with Eugene, and, obviously, a legend in the comedy game. He’s honed his craft, you could tell the entire cast and crew respected him, we had 20 minutes to do an interview, and he was so generous, so gracious about how he’s achieved success, how his family succeeds. A lot of people know about Dan Levy in Schitt’s Creek.

And then, towards the end of the interview, he just took a moment to pause and say, “Hey, thank you very much for bringing the energy, the enthusiasm to the interview, but if there’s one piece of advice I can give you, if you want to succeed in this business, and if you want to play the long game, there’s one thing you need to know.” Obviously, when Eugene drops that, I just leaned in, I’m like, “What is it?” He’s like, “Make sure you insure your eyebrows.” I’m like, “What?”

I know we’re on the podcast right now but, hey, game recognizes game. He’s got those thick caterpillars, these south Asian roots are giving me those thick caterpillars too, and I said, “Eugene, awesome, man. I don’t know if they do that, but that is an amazing trademark to make it in the entertainment business. Game on.”

Pete Mockaitis
Insure the eyebrows, yeah. It’s hard enough to get an insurance company to do anything outside of their cookie-cutter legal boilerplate. That’d probably take some doing to pull that off.

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, they would put a new box to check, “Diva, yup. Correct. That’s Riaz. He wants his eyebrows insured. Let’s just focus on the mortgage and the home.”

Pete Mockaitis
There’s an extra premium for the diva. It’s like a young driver, they’ll slap you with that. So, we’re talking about you got a book here, Every Conversation Counts: The 5 Habits of Human Connection that Build Extraordinary Relationships. I’d love to hear you’ve done a lot of conversing and connecting in your years. What would you say is one of the most surprising lessons you’ve picked up along the way?

Riaz Meghji
That there’s two teachers in the room in any conversation. Two teachers in the room, and this was a great lesson that was presented to me by a very popular host in Canada. His name is Ron MacLean, a magnificent storyteller, and he has this gift of anybody he interviews, his primary gig is Hockey Night in Canada, but he is such a masterful interviewer with athletes, not just seeing what’s in front of us, but seeing what the story is behind the lens. And he really talked about the idea that the interviewers out there that can do their research and come in with the greatest intention, get asked their job to just stay as curious as long as possible.

But how somebody really listens, how an interviewer really listens to draw out the story that isn’t being told is the opportunity to be a teacher, because the person answering the questions, they’ve got the ideas, they’ve got the stories they’re going to share, but the art of listening and being the interviewer, you can be a powerful teacher to just be a mirror and create a heightened level of awareness that that subject might not even know about.

And when he said that to me, that there’s two teachers in the room, it always reminded me, whether you’re asking the question or answering the question, there’s a chance to learn from each other in just very profound ways.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Certainly. And listening is huge and I think a lot of my guests have commented, “It’s nice that you don’t just sort of move through a pre-set list of questions.” I mean, where’s the fun in that? In terms of the live back and forth is where a lot of the magic and fun is, so amen to that.

Riaz Meghji
You know, it’s so true. And I can say this, early on in my career, I’ve been doing television for almost 20 years now. Earlier on, I would do that exact same thing, Pete. I’d do all of the research, come up with a list of questions that I thought were brilliant, and then I would check the box of, “Was this a successful interview?” And the gauge on that would be, “Did I ask all of the questions I brought in to the conversation?” And then, slowly, I was realizing the moment was being missed to unlock something from that subject that you can’t Google. And one of the simple things I would do in the green room with any guest, no matter how much research I would do, which would give me confidence, I would slowly begin to over-prepare to improvise.

And the way I would do it is in that green room. I would greet the guests, we’d go past the formalities, but I’d simply start that by asking, “Hey, so what’s on your mind?” And the first thing that came out of their mouth would allow me to understand what the priority is for them. So, no matter how much research I did, I would park it, prioritize their priorities, and then lean in and listen and be ready to improvise. And I found that’s where some magical moments would really happen with the people in front of us.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool because, I’d imagine, if that’s their priority, and you give some love and attention up front, they’d think, “I like this Riaz guy. I can open up. I can trust. I can share a little bit more. I can not be as guarded,” and good things can flow there.

Riaz Meghji
Yeah. And that approach allowed me to really understand that there are three questions that stood out when you’re trying to unlock somebody and get them to open up and just truly share who they are. That the three questions we all ask ourselves, especially the first time we’re meeting somebody are, “Do you care about me? Are you listening to me? And can I trust you?” And simply recognizing the value of those three questions really allowed some beautiful moments to be shared not only in the green room but that trust to convey something really powerful when it was on live TV which can be nerve-racking for anybody involved.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, those are some great questions right there. And, I’m curious, I guess you’ll get the answers you want if you actually do care, you actually are listening, and you actually are trustworthy, so I don’t know if there’s any tricks or hacks that can be implemented there but, nonetheless, I’m going to ask you. How do you make it so that the person you’re talking to picks up the good stuff, assuming that you do have a good heart and intentions, and you really do care, and you really are listening, and you really are trustworthy? How can you make that all the more apparent?

Riaz Meghji
I think it’s saying less and listening more and following their lead. And what I found is, over the years, a lot of the times when you look at any conversation or any interview, the person who controls the conversation is the one asking the questions. And sometimes that initial question that you ask, I would get caught up in the trap early on, Pete, where I would come in with, like I said, all of this information, and I would overcomplicate things, and I would unleash this overcomplicated set of I have like multiple questions in that first question where somebody is saying, “Okay. Well, hey, that’s great, all this research. I don’t even know how to answer this because you asked me like 10 questions in one.”

So, I think really getting to the point and simplifying things off the top, and then how you make it apparent to that person that you’re dialed in, is the value of the follow up, and those expansive questions that are starting with the what or how that have a high emotional component as well. Because I find a lot of the questions that happen, and maybe it’s because people are overwhelmed with, one, information; two, with stress; three, with the awkwardness, especially coming out of this pandemic of “How do we connect? This has got to be perfect,” is forgetting about the facts and putting the facts in the background and focusing on the emotional connection you can have with somebody.

And I find that’s, that feeling, someone could have where you’re asking a question that really taps into a feeling they’re experiencing, that’s where that magic happens where they begin to really appreciate that you want to be where they’re at, and you’re exploring that important space for them.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, so let’s dig into some of the particulars then. So, you’ve said in your subtitle “The 5 Habits of Human Connection.” So, what are those five and how do we do them well?

Riaz Meghji
Yeah. Well, we kind of touched on the first one being listening, but the habit I really wanted to articulate is listening without distraction. And this culture that we’re in right now is one culture of convenience with technology. We’re flipping the camera and we’re flipping a microphone on, we’re having our meetings, and everything is moving so fast with this convenience, so it is easy. Looking at the science of our brains and how we connect, in many ways, I feel like we’re all just too smart for our own good simply because our brains can absorb 400-500 words per minute. Yet, the average person is speaking in a rate of 125 words per minute.

So, that means, with that extra capacity we have when we’re listening, we can easily get caught up in technology, in multitasking, in daydreaming, the emotional distraction of shutting down if we disagree with somebody. So, I think the first thing, if we’re going to listen without distraction, is listen to ourselves on a daily basis. And if you’re listening to this right now, auditing ourselves to say, “What are the distractions, on a daily basis, in your everyday communication that are pulling away the focus and gift of undivided attention you could give somebody?”

And not trying to remove those all at once because that can be completely overwhelming, but just becoming aware of what they are and then slowly starting to pick those off one by one, and that will allow us to be so much more present not only with our listening ear but, more importantly, with our curiosity to dive deeper with what somebody might be sharing with us, especially if it’s something quite vulnerable or real.

Pete Mockaitis
And that notion about being too smart for our own good and the word count differential, I’m intrigued with the awareness of distractions. Can you give us some big categories because I think it’s pretty obvious? Like, okay, the phone. You can look at your smartphone, you hear the dings and the buzzes, and you’re just, “Who was that? What was that? What’s going on just right there?” So, that’s one, and I think that’s kind of obvious. But what are some of the other ways that we fill that word count gap in between our ears that’s distracting and unhelpful?

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, if we’re feeling uneasy, it’s so easy for us to get caught up in our agendas. If we’re rehearsing our elevator pitch, or think about the interview process, you’re thinking about, “Okay, did I get to this question? Did I get to this question?” we’re missing out on what that person is giving us. So, it really comes down to, “How do we just let go of our agenda?” Let go of that pitch that you had and ask more and try to unlock something with someone.

It’s easy with our own biases to have assumptions unconsciously get in the way of thinking, “This is the way it’s going to go. This is the way it’s always been,” and missing out on an opportunity to have a breakthrough with somebody. And that really ties into the idea of judgment as well and our negativity bias. So, checking our bias, our judgment, our assumption, and even our agendas, on that emotional level, I think that’s one of the biggest, Pete.

I think the first thing people will say, “Oh, it’s technology. It’s our screens getting in the way.” But I also think it’s us. And with all of the mental game that could go on trying to achieve an outcome, we might lose sight on the opportunity of enter every conversation of how we’re going to build this pure and meaningful relationship as opposed to go through all of these mechanical or just methodical ways to achieve your objective, so to speak.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s really good with the agenda there in terms of when you’re focused on that, you’re necessarily not focused on what is being said in the moment. And, it’s funny, I think maybe we have a suspicion perhaps that if we don’t give mental energy to remembering the agenda, it will be forgotten and catastrophe will befall us. But, in practice, I find that once there’s a pause, it’s just like, “Oh. And, oh, now this thing.” It doesn’t go away if you stop thinking about it. It’s still ready for you and you could just write it down.

Riaz Meghji
When all else goes, write it down. And you know what, that’s actually a very good point because one of the most important things that I’ve learned that has really helped, I mean, you asked an important point of, “How do you make this apparent in the conversation itself that you care, and that I am listening to you and I trust you?” Those things you write down, especially those uncommon commonalities that might pop up with unique passions, whether it’s maybe something in your career, something in your health, something in your relationships, but something that’s so specific.

If you’re able to write that down, and let’s be real, we’re not going to be able to remember every single detail, but if we write it down and we follow up with somebody a week, a month, maybe even a year down the line, instead of me emailing you and saying, “Hey, Pete, hope you’re well.” But if we can replace “Hope you’re well” with “Hey, Pete,” and then insert a moment we shared, immediately someone is going to say, “Wow! I can’t believe Pete remembered that,” and it’s going to start opening up that idea of, “Yeah, they listened. Yeah, they care. Yeah, I could trust him because he valued what I said.” And that takes effort on our part when we’re listening and also being real with documenting these moments, too, because, realistically, we can only remember so much.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. All right, so we have the habit of listening without distraction. And the second habit is to make your small talk bigger. How do you recommend we do that?

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, man. A lot of people dread the idea of small talk. I bet you, you just use those two words, small talk, people will think, “I don’t want to go there. I’m just going to dodge it. I’m going to avoid it altogether.” And looking at the exercise of small talk over the years, I’ve just come to realize that small talk is such a defense mechanism because what it really does is it prevents us from the embarrassment of getting emotional in front of someone we don’t know. Or, maybe hitting a nerve with somebody else and we’re not ready to process their emotion and be a witness to what they’re experiencing.

And I think with small talk, if we’re going to make it bigger, especially right now, the big change I feel we’ve all seen in the past year is that, in many ways, we’ve all been in the constant state of grief whether we realize it or not, and it’s grief over the loss of the way we used to live our lives. Like, those conversations of convenience at the watercooler, or dropping into somebody’s office, or maybe hanging out on the sidelines at a sports game with parents as you watched your kids. Those are gone. Temporarily, those are gone. But the conversation that’s top of mind for everybody right now is the psychological struggle of how they’ve waded through and kind of survived through this pandemic.

So, if we’re going to make our small talk bigger, here’s a real opportunity, and maybe this was a silver lining of this uncertainty being our universal commonality with the pandemic, is just, yes, less facts, more emotion. And if you have no context of the person in front of you, like as interviewers, we could say, “Hey, yeah, okay. We had time to research the subject. We have some ideas. It’s going to make this small talk go deeper a lot easier.” But if you have no context of that person in front of you, being a proud Canadian, I call this the happiness hat trick, and this is courtesy of the late great psychiatrist Gordon Livingston, who did terrific work on the happiness equation for people.

And he found the happiest people have something to do, they have someone to love, and they have something to look forward to. And if you have no context of the person in front of you, start there because all of those have a high emotional component of what matters most to the person in front of you, and that will start to unlock that sense of feeling of where somebody is at, and then, yeah, let them lead with that and be that teacher that ask those questions to help unlock where they’re at and where they want to go. And that conversation, that relationship, will deepen in a really meaningful way.

Pete Mockaitis
And that notion of the small talk being a defense mechanism, I think that really rings true though I haven’t quite thought of it that way. If someone says, I just walk in a place and say, “How are you doing?” I don’t think…well, it’s true. I don’t want to say, “Well, I feel really weird and restless because we moved and they have no idea what’s going on with the truck and all my stuff, and I’m just like, ‘Is it lost forever? Should I buy all new stuff?’ It’s very unsettling.”

So, on top of not knowing very many people, and so, I don’t know, I’m sad, I’m anxious, I am unsettled. It’s sort of like, “That’s how I’m really doing,” but I’m not going to say that. It’s just like, “How is it going?” when you walk into a Starbucks. And so, effectively, that is a defense mechanism. It’s like I guess just a nicer way of saying, “None of your business.”

Riaz Meghji
It’s so true. Yeah, our answer when somebody says, “How are you?” and you’re like, “Good. Thanks.” Translation, “It’s none of your business.” But if we could switch that question, because it is second nature, it’s just a greeting, it’s autopilot mode. That’s what that question is. But if we switch it with one word, it could provide permission and that opportunity to let that person know, “Pete, I really want to know how you’re doing.”

And it’s, “Hey, how are you really? Like, how are you really doing?” And that one word allows that person to know, “Oh, this person is really checking in. This isn’t just superficial BS of, ‘How are you? Yeah, let’s go through it. Now I’m going to order what I want from Starbucks.’” But there’s an intention of how we ask the question that can really break that autopilot mode so someone could say, “Oh, this is an authentic opportunity here.”

And by you sharing that and somebody being in that space, at any point on any given day, something powerful could happen, and that could change your life, that could change the listener’s life, and that’s up to us on how we engage with our small talk.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And it’s true in terms of what gets opened up and then where that goes. I was chatting with my barber and he started talking about how the Wim Hof breathing approach has transformed his life, and how he met Wim and did some stuff. All this stuff is like, “Well, okay.” He just mentioned that he’s winding down being a barber, it’s like, “Oh, what are you up to?” and he just got going. It was like, “Well, this is fascinating. I’m going to go. I’ve heard of this guy. I’m going to get the app. Whatever. And so, yeah, and we’ll see how transformational it is.”

Riaz Meghji
You said Wim Hof? Was that it?

Pete Mockaitis
Wim Hof, yeah.

Riaz Meghji
I’ve never heard of that. What am I missing?

Pete Mockaitis
He might be on the show. He’s famous for climbing Mt. Everest in his shorts and setting some world records for ice exposure, and there’s some cool science behind some of his breathing and stuff. So, yeah. Anyway, I learned about that in chatting with my barber.

Riaz Meghji
Well done.

Pete Mockaitis
You never know what’ll pop up. Cool. So, let’s hear the third habit there – put aside your perfect persona. What’s the story here?

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, this notion of us practicing imperfection through technology. We see it on social media. It’s kind of become a second nature habit. And the idea here is to really invite people to show up and have the courage to be themselves. And this is easier said than done. It’s an idea that came to me in a conversation with Darren Hardy, which happened a few years back. And, Darren, for those that don’t know, he’s the author of a terrific book, it’s one of my favorites, it’s called The Compound Effect, of how the small things can have a profound effect in your life.

And he’s a renowned CEO, coach, and mentor for leaders around the world, and he was in Vancouver for an event. We sat down for 20 minutes, and he’s interviewed some of the greats as well, like some of the greatest interviewers. And I said to him, I’m like, “Darren, what is your secret to having people truly open up and show you who they really are?” And he kind of smiled and he looked at me, and he said, “Two words.” And I said, “Lay it on me.” And he said, “Go first.” And I said, “Go first. Okay, tell me about this.”

And he said, “If you want to motivate somebody, find out what motivates them and help them achieve that. Say go first.” He said, “If you want somebody to trust you, go first and reveal something that’s raw and candid, and show them that this is a safe space. They have the psychological safety that you’ve given them a part of you, and it’s safe for them to return the favor.” And I thought this was so fascinating of the idea of going first because, and it’s maybe it’s the cautious or skeptic part of my mind, it’s like, “What’s the difference between going first and oversharing because that could backfire on you?”

And I know you had Jon Levy on the show and he was talking about the Pratfall effect, and that is a very important part to consider of conveying credibility before vulnerability, and establishing that responsibility and that point of authority, and then that reveal can really draw people closer. And if they’re questioning your competence to begin with, then you’re tripping over yourself and you’re flooring the gas pedal with all of this candid vulnerability, it can really backfire and create distance instead of that connection.

So, this notion of putting aside your perfect persona is really going first with a piece of yourself. And one of those examples that we recently saw, I’m a big Will Smith fan, and when I saw Will Smith pull stuff, “Hey, I’m going to be real with you all. I’m in the worst shape of my life.” I don’t know if you’ve seen his photo, but he put himself out there. He’s just in his boxer shorts showing that the guy that’s all muscles and cut in movies, for the first time, he doesn’t look that way. And it gave permission for people to talk about their bodies and their pandemic bodies, and celebrate the fact that, “Hey, we’re all in this together. We can all get through this together.” And he’s inspired people going on new workout routines and transformations just by going first with the challenge he has. So, I think it shows up in many ways.

Pete Mockaitis
That is powerful. And I do want to hear if you’ve cracked the code on that oversharing kind of complexity there because, I guess, what comes to mind is I was chatting with one of my podcast guests, and I guess he already had tremendous authority and credibility in my eyes because I’ve researched him, I know his bio and stuff. And I say, “How are you doing?” He’s like, “Oh, you know, it’s been a difficult week. I’ve got a son who’s been struggling with drug addiction, and we thought we had that kicked, but, unfortunately, this happened.”

So, he shared that and it only took maybe 20 seconds to reveal, and I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m so sorry.” And the way I received it, I did not find that off-putting at all. I felt for him, I thought, “Oh, man, this has got to be so hard. I’ve got toddlers today. I can only imagine struggling with that in the future.” And it really did, it made me like and trust him a bundle, and I’ve been sort of eager to connect with him whenever I’m in his city.

So, in a way, and that’s pretty darn vulnerable in terms of what’s going on in your life for real. That’s hard and that’s real. So, I did not receive it in, “Whoa, easy, fellow. Simmer down. Too much information.” I didn’t receive it that way. I don’t know, maybe some people would, but I don’t know, he just seemed so great, it would be hard to imagine.

So, I don’t know, how do you think about that dance?

Riaz Meghji
If I’m going to share something like that, the question I’m asking myself is, “Is the person or is the audience ready to hear this? Are they in a space where they’re ready and willing to accept the emotional intensity I could bring on them?” And I’m not surprised by your reaction. You’ve mastered your craft doing these interviews. This is what you do to bring out the best in people to see who they really are. But if we’re on the street and the circumstances, things are moving fast and there’s only a limited amount of time, and I’m dropping that on somebody, I don’t think I’ve set them up for success if, say, we’re walking and they’re trying to get to a destination, maybe they’re trying to pick up their kids. They’re not in the right space to be able to receive it and support me.

So, I think it’s important to pick the spot. And if the spot is right, and there is time, and somebody is willing to accept it, I think the flipside of that is if I’m going to share something that I’m struggling with, I really look at, “How can I share a bit of the transformation going on?” Because I find, as listeners, we’re always looking for that moment of, “How is this moment, how is this story, how could this make my life better?” And if I’m going to share a bit of the struggle and the conflict, I always think, “What is the point of reflection or lesson I’ve learned through this that I could share with somebody if they were to hit this roadblock too?”

So, it’s almost like the struggle becomes a share and point of service to be like, “Here’s what I’ve worked through, here’s what I’ve learned, and here’s what I’m still trying to get to.” And that awareness, that reflection, and perhaps a teaching moment, gives somebody a gift of real-life perspective as opposed to just an emotional dump where they’re thinking, “What do I do with this?” And I think Ray Dalio said this, and this really stuck with me, of pain plus reflection equals progress.

And I think that’s a powerful statement. And I also think about all the things we’ve individually gone through during the pandemic, when somebody asks, “Tell me about something that happened during the past year that had a positive impact on your life? Or, tell me about something that really changed things for you.” That’s on us to really absorb, reflect, write about these moments in our lives and, one teach ourselves, and then, two, have the opportunity to share in profound ways so people will be grateful for the share, not only because, hey, you trusted me with that but you’re teaching me as well about what the struggle really means and how to work through it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that’s great. And it’s handy and it is of service. And, in a way, it’s, I don’t know, maybe it’s a sort of a sad commentary on human nature. It’s like, “Okay, so you’re struggling but what’s in this for me?” And, yet, that’s kind of there, so if you serve that up alongside, it’s helpful. So, I’m all for it.

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, and to that point, Pete, if the audience is asking, “What’s in it for me?” If you are a close confidant, there’s an opportunity, maybe that person who’s struggling is not giving you something but maybe they’re coming to you for something, and that can light you up as well of that, “What’s in it for me?” “Here’s my chance to help you,” and that’s a powerful point of building a relationship too. Because I find a lot of the times, we’re just quick to interrupt or drop unsolicited advice, but if I’m surrendering and saying, “Hey, Pete, can you help me out with this? Like, you’ve interviewed so many people, what’s your take on this?” That’s a chance to celebrate your wisdom and that’s a powerful tool as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Well, let’s hear the fourth one – be assertively empathetic. How do we do that?

Riaz Meghji
When you hear those two words, assertively empathetic, does that strike you as odd, like those two can’t go together?

Pete Mockaitis
It’s different because the emotional vibe of assertive is like, “I’m stating this is my position and this is what I need,” versus empathetic, it’s like, “Oh, yeah, I really want to understand.” They have a different emotional charge to them. So, yeah, when they’re side by side, it’s unique.

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, I asked that question because I find anyone that’s come across it, they say to me, “Well, is that an oxymoron? Like, how do you do both?” And the assertive side of things kind of touches on what we talked about in the listening without distraction of checking ourselves. In this time where it’s a polarized climate, whether it’s political views or just different ways of living life, it is so easy when we disagree on something to jump in, to challenge, to interrupt, to give that unsolicited advice to what we just talked to, and forget about the idea of acknowledging that person.

So, the assertive side really comes in checking ourselves and acknowledging, putting the focus on acknowledging that person even if you disagree with them, and allow them to express where they’re at and what they’re experiencing. And our philosophy really is, “How can we discover before we dismiss any type of idea and be curious longer?” And when we’ve acknowledged them and we’ve kind of heard about what’s going on, confirming, “Okay, our understanding is this. Here’s what you’re going through,” and then once the relationship has been prioritized, then it’s the opportunity to bring in logic and focus on what we can agree on.

So, like, “Pete, what’s the real challenge here for you? Like, what does your ideal scenario look like? And what would it take for this to work for you?” And the big goal of this, as we check our own emotional limitations and put that focus of “Look at you” is greater than “Look at me” in this, especially when things are heated, is we want to create a dynamic where it would be you and me, Pete, versus the problem instead of me versus you. And that takes assertiveness to check our own inclinations to jump in. And then the empathetic aspect to lean in, be curious, even when we disagree, to just give someone the opportunity to be understood.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I really appreciated those sample questions you were dropping there because I got the vibe. It’s like you were assertive in the sense of it’s like, “Oh, you’re really going for some territory here,” and how you’re approaching it. It’s like the heart of the matter, it’s the real deal stuff, and we’re not getting distracted by the irrelevant pieces. So, in that sense, it is assertive, but the content that we’re getting after is empathetic in terms of like the emotional stuff that we’re going for there.

Riaz Meghji
Yeah, and the power of questions really stands out. I found it fascinating, there was a study at the University of Wisconsin back, I think this was back in 2013 on difficult conversations. And they said, “Well, how do you create a safe space when someone has to convey negative news or you completely disagree on something?” And they talked about the notion of how we can own our own emotions. And it came down to the use of “I” statements. Like, “I’m feeling frustrated here,” “I’m feeling exhausted,” “I should’ve known better with this, Pete,” or even using the “I” statement in the question. Like, “Pete, how did I fail to show up for you here?” or, “Pete, what’s the question I failed to ask to understand where you’re at?”

All of that is a great deal of assertiveness to own the fact that something has been missed on my side, but, at the same time, the direction is complete empathy because you’re trying to get to the understanding of bringing somebody in so you show it’s us in this together and we can productively disagree as opposed to just have an unproductive confrontation.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. Perfect. All right. I’m just going to leave it there. I have nothing to add. That’s excellent. Let’s hear about making people feel famous.

Riaz Meghji
This final habit really kind of touches on what I believe people need most right now. And given everything we’ve been through, I feel like what we benefit from the most is having a cheerleader, or some sort of champion in our corner, and someone that’s going to say, “I see what you’re doing, Pete. Like, I see the great work you’re doing in this podcast. That previous episode you had with that certain guest, that gave me something that made my days better.”

And it’s this point of appreciation, recognition, but above all, specificity. And when we talk about this generic, “How are you?” the easy thing you throw out, it’s autopilot. It’s also autopilot, if I’ve listened to an episode that you’ve done, and for me to just email you and say, “Hey, Pete, great job on that last episode.” It’s such a throwaway. It’s such a missed opportunity for me to make you feel valued in terms of the work you’re doing but, more importantly, hone in on what it was. Because I can say, “Great job,” but the question on your side might be like, “Well, what exactly made it a great job?”

And a simple way to make people feel famous is how we practice specificity and how we praise others, and how we make it specific to a certain moment, how we make it personal of like, “Listen, this is how it changed my life.” How we make it public and champion it and share it on social media, and say, “Hey, check this guy’s podcast out. You want to be awesome? This is it. This is the place to be,” but connect it back to purpose, and saying, “This is how I made a difference in my life and here’s what I’m trying to do.”

And if we can do that and practice that habit of specificity and lifting people up and making them famous, so to speak, above all, it creates this culture of feeling valued and appreciated when we have this opportunity now to start to go back to work, and organizations are going to try to retain talent, there are going to be some big factors when people are deciding, “Where do I want to work? How do I want to work? And who do I want to work with?” And this final habit really touches in the idea of being seen and having a powerful sense of belonging. And it’s a simple thing we can do but I think it can have a profound effect.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Absolutely. Well, Riaz, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Riaz Meghji
I just hope, if you’re listening to this right now, that the opportunity of breaking out of autopilot mode is something we all can control. And the whole objective of this message, if every conversation counts, is just to encourage people to just be more intentional whether that’s with how we listen, how we get curious, how empathetic we could be, or how specific we could be when we’re trying to lift people up. Let’s break out of autopilot mode right now and find ways to just energize our relationships and lift each other up.

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Pete Mockaitis
Cool. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Riaz Meghji
This one was given to me by my editor of my book last year when we’re writing in 2020 because I’m totally the guy that overanalyzes and overthink things, and my editor said, “Look, you cannot edit a blank page.” And that really resonated with me because the notion of trying to get it perfect the first time, I mean, you put aside your perfect persona. The editor encouraged, “Just put it down on paper whatever idea that might be and then let’s go to work on it and make it stronger and poke holes in it. But we can’t do that unless you just have the courage to just put down that initial thought.” So, I love the simplicity of it. You cannot edit a blank page. If anyone has a writer’s block, just put it out there, test it, experiment with it, and that’s how we can make it better.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Riaz Meghji
I really dig The Coaching Habit by Michael Bungay Stanier. And the reason I dig it is the simplicity of the questions that he asks. I mean, sure, it’s a book about coaching, but it really demonstrates the power of curiosity to open up windows of stories and conversations and deepening relationships. Simple read. Digestible read. Memorable read. So, The Coaching Habit is one of my faves.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Riaz Meghji
Well, I like this Blue Yeti mic. How’s the audio sounding so far on the podcast?

Pete Mockaitis
Sounds pretty good. Not too echo-y which is the only downfall of the Blue Yeti. But when in a low-echo room, it’s just right. So, I agree, for what it’s worth.

Riaz Meghji
You know, building on the simplicity of technology, it’s funny, like working in the keynote spaces and when you have the chance to contribute, the TV side of me wanted to complicate things and think, “Okay, we need this high-tech studio. We need all these things.” But, at the end of the day, the value is the message and how we’re going to move people, make them feel something. And kind of simplifying things, somebody introduced this Blue Yeti mic, I’m like, “Don’t I need like a fancy Shure 570?” And I know those mics are gorgeous. But they’re like, “No, just get the Blue Yeti. They’ll do the job.” So, as a tool, this has helped me. And if it’s sounding good for you and it’s sounding good for you listening, then, hey, I’ll go with the favorite tool as the Yeti.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. And is there a particular nugget you share that seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you and retweet it often?

Riaz Meghji
I think two things. The first being that pandemics don’t change our identity. They reveal it. And the big reveal that came from the last year is that human connection isn’t an option. It’s a necessity. And we all felt it at a deep level when those conversations that we’re used to, social rituals of high fives, hugs, handshakes, those are gone, and we lost a piece of what made us a community. And that human connection, now, is up to us to bring that back in impactful ways. So, I think those two thoughts right there about how pandemics impact identity and reveal it, and just the value of human connection, are two thoughts I’d like to share that seem to resonate.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Riaz Meghji
Just to the website RiazMeghji.com. I’ll spell it out because who can spell that name just hearing it for the first time? It’s R-I-A-Z M-E-G-H-J-I.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Riaz Meghji
Reach out to somebody. If you’re listening to this, reach out to somebody in the next 24 hours. Maybe it’s somebody that gave you a helping hand, maybe it’s somebody that gave you a confidence boost over the last few months, look, maybe it’s somebody that gave you a wakeup call, and called you out so they could call you up, and maybe you didn’t let them know how much that meant. And if you’ve been thinking about somebody, my challenge is reach out to them. Get specific on how they made a difference for you and watch the dynamic that can create.

Pete Mockaitis
Beautiful. Riaz, this has been a treat. I wish you lots of enjoyable conversations in the future.

Riaz Meghji
Pete, love you, man. Thank you for inviting the message on and just being in conversation in the space.

677: Optimizing Your LinkedIn for Maximum Opportunities with Donna Serdula

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Donna Serdula breaks down her four-point methodology for getting the most out of LinkedIn.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The crucial first step to building a solid LinkedIn presence 
  2. How to dramatically increase your reach with keywords
  3. The simplest way to grow your network tenfold 

 

About Donna

Donna Serdula pioneered the concept of LinkedIn profile optimisation, realising early on that the LinkedIn profile was so much more than just an online resume.

A job change in 2006 led her back to LinkedIn as Donna looked for tools to help her build a sales territory. It was during this time she had her LinkedIn epiphany and forged her LinkedIn 4 point methodology. By integrating LinkedIn into her sales process, she found tremendous success.

In 2009, she walked away from her successful sales career and founded Vision Board Media and LinkedIn-Makeover.com.

She is the author of the book LinkedIn Profile Optimization For Dummies, published by Wiley.

Donna has been featured on Forbes, Business Insider, Time’s Money Section, Wall Street Journal’s Market Watch, LA Times, NBC, SiriusXM Radio’s The Focus Group, and many other news outlets.

Resources mentioned in the show:

Thank you, sponsors!

Donna Serdula Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Donna, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Donna Serdula
Hi, Pete. Thank you so much for having me.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about branding, LinkedIn profile optimizing, representing yourself well. And what’s fun because I was just on your LinkedIn profile and, right off the bat, you impressed me with your use of the pronunciation feature which most people don’t use. And you didn’t just say “Donna Serdula,” which is what I did but you said, “My name is Donna Serdula. I help professionals represent themselves or brand themselves on LinkedIn and beyond.” I was like, “That’s awesome.” Like, you got a few seconds to work with and so you, right there at the very beginning, you’ve made it count, and I was impressed. So, it looks like we’re talking to the right person.

Donna Serdula
Well, thank you. They give you 10 seconds and if they’re going to give you 10 seconds, I say use all 10 seconds. I will tell you, right when they first put that out there, I was using like a little bit of the Batman theme from the 1960s Adam West show, I had that as the introduction and then my name, but that was cute in the very beginning, and then I decided, “Let’s get this a little bit more professional.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, well done. And it’s funny, I listened to mine, it’s like, “I’m a little soft. I should do it again.” All right, so I’m already inspired.

Donna Serdula
But here’s the thing. With your name, I kept looking at it in my email, and I was like, “Mocca? Mikatitis?” and then I went to your profile, hit that button, got the pronunciation, and thought, “Why didn’t I see it immediately?” But it’s perfect, like for my last name, very few people know how to pronounce it. And for those people who have an ethnic name, I think it’s a great feature. It helps people and it makes everyone a little bit more comfortable.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so we’re going to talk about representing yourself on LinkedIn. And I’d love it if maybe you could kick us off by sharing what are some of the most wild ways you’ve seen people represent themselves maybe in terms of their titles or the headlines that made you go, “Huh?”

Donna Serdula
There’s a lot of ninjas out there. There’s a lot of ninjas, there’s a lot of rock stars

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, ninjas and rock stars.

Donna Serdula
But I like it. I have to admit when a person tries, I like it. I really like it. What I don’t like is when a person doesn’t try in any way and they upload a really just terrible profile picture and they just copy and paste old stuff that was developed years before, and they call it a day. To me, it’s a horrible, horrible thing. I really feel that people should think and really say to themselves, “How do I want others to perceive me? Where do I want to go in my life? Where do I want to go in my career?” and really be very thoughtful when you craft that profile because people are looking. They want to know what to think about you. And so, if you want to be that ninja, if you want to be that rock star, girl, go for it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. All right. Well, could you maybe kick us off by sharing a cool story of someone who did kind of rethink how they’re representing themselves and tweaked some things on LinkedIn and beyond and saw some cool results from it?

Donna Serdula
This is what we do every day, our clients come to us and they have problems talking about themselves, telling their story. It’s really, really hard to write about yourself. I’m thinking of a very specific client who had come to us. He was 56 years old, and the writing was on the wall, his position was going to be eliminated. He knew it. He knew the end date was coming. He was in technology and he was scared because at 56, he felt he was so far over the hill. He didn’t know where he was going to go, where he was going to get hired. He’d been at this organization for years.

And I remember him calling me and the sense of fear and dread and anxiety that was in his voice, and I remember saying, “Let’s take the bull by the horns and let’s make sure that you’re presenting yourself as who you are, that you’re relevant, that you’re interesting, that you’re energized, that you have so much to offer.” And we worked on the profile and we told his story, and we talked about who he was and what he represented and what he did and how it helped others. We infused the right keywords throughout that profile, and we did the same with his resume.

And he called me back six months later that he had gotten a job closer to his home. He was making 40% more.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, wow.

Donna Serdula
Why 40% more? Not because he did such a great job but because he’d been in that company for so many years, he had never truly gotten the correct upticks in salary that he would’ve gotten if he was in just the regular market. And he was so gracious and so thankful that that’s what happens when you decide to represent yourself and tell your story and put yourself out there.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. Very cool. Well, a huge success story, so that’s encouraging and hopeful and inspiring for folks who may want to do some things that shake things up. So, can you tell us how do you start thinking about this whole thing? How do you represent yourself? And then maybe let’s get into some particulars for LinkedIn as a platform to do that optimally.

Donna Serdula
Sure. I believe that the very first step, at least with LinkedIn and branding yourself on that platform, it’s really important, Pete, to say, “Why am I on LinkedIn? What am I hoping to achieve?” Not everyone is on LinkedIn for job search. Some people are on it because they want to prospect and sell more. Some are on it because people are looking at them and they want to make sure that they’re utilizing it for reputation management, that when a person looks at them, they see someone who’s impressive, someone who has earned their confidence.

Others are doing it for executive branding to tell that story, to be perceived at a different level, and there could be combinations. But it’s really important to know why you’re on LinkedIn because your goal is going to determine your story and how you present yourself. If you’re in sales and your goal is to sell more but your profile is written like a resume and that goal is more for recruiters that you love to prospect, you’re just going to turn off your target audience which is prospects and potential clients.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s great. So, could I hear maybe a little bit of those implications in terms of, okay, if I’m in a selling of products or services mode, as opposed to selling myself mode, what are some key things I do differently based on the pathway I’m going down?

Donna Serdula
Yeah, it’s so important to really envision that audience, that person who you want to be reading the profile. And think in terms of if they were searching for someone like you, if they didn’t know your name, what would those keywords be that they’re putting into the search bar in trying to find you, to get close to someone like you. Those words are words that you’d want to infuse through your profile. That’s how you’re going to get found more often. And very, very few people ever really think that deeply about LinkedIn, they go, “Oh, I copy and paste my resume and I’ll be done.”

But LinkedIn is a professional network but it’s also a search engine, and recruiters and hiring managers are using it, but not just hiring managers. People in the media are using it, people who are looking for talent, who have opportunity to provide, they want to find someone like you, so you want to make it really easy for them to find you. But knowing what you want out of it and what that person would be interested in, that’s what’s going to shape the story.

So, what does a recruiter want? What are you targeting in that regard? Or, what’s going to impress a person? What have you done that you’re proud of that would make a difference? And once you have that down, jot it down. That’s what’s going to start to shape your narrative within the About section of your profile.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Certainly. Well, that sounds fundamental and yet often overlooked.

Donna Serdula
It’s so easy. Why doesn’t anyone do it?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you take some time. Okay, seriously. Who do I want to see this? And when they see it, what do I want them to walk away thinking? And so, you’re thinking through that. And so with that kind of bullseye in mind, what are some of the key factors that make a profile make a great impression in terms of, “Hey, this is remarkable. This person really seems like they could be a winner,” versus, “Oh, okay. Next”?

Donna Serdula
I hate bullets. I hate bulleted lists. I just despise that. I also hate huge blocks of impenetrable texts where there’s not a single line break. It could be the most warmest, engaging copy ever written but if it’s hard for an eye to scan through, you’re going to turn people off. So, it’s not just what you write but it’s also how you format it through the profile. Like, line breaks, that enter or return key should be a good friend of yours. Don’t think like the old-fashioned paragraph concept that we were taught in school. You can actually break it up a little bit more, into more of like ideas so the easier it is to scan, the better.

I would say first person narrative. There are certain times, I have some clients that come to me and they have done the most amazing things. They’ve lived these incredible lives. Their accomplishments are huge. And when they write in the first person, it feels weird to them. It just doesn’t feel right. Those are very few situations where I’m like, “Okay, let’s write in third. It’s okay if you write in third person.” But for most people, they know that you’ve written it yourself, or you’ve hired someone to write it for you. You should write in first person, and write it in a manner where it’s warm, it’s engaging, it tells that story. It’s who you are. Why you do what you do? What does it mean to others? What do you stand for? What do you represent?

And when you talk about that, ultimately, it’s your why. I think it really resonates with people and they love that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I hear you there. And I’m looking at yours right now as you’re speaking. So, I hear what you’re saying in terms of breaking up the text so we’ve got some shorter paragraphs, maybe just a sentence at times, or, “Well, I do,” in the shortest. “Do you know what makes a LinkedIn profile stand out from the crowd?” New paragraph. “Well, I do.” That’s great. Okay, I’m intrigued. Okay. What are you about? So, I’m pulled in.

And then in terms of breaking up the text, you have a nice little bold, capital SERVICES, AUTHOR, SPEAKER, and then a little bit of an underline there, and that’s just easy-peasy to do, there’s no special tricks. You just push the bold button?

Donna Serdula
There’s no bold button.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, now you’re a ninja and a rock star, Donna. How do we do it?

Donna Serdula
So, that is actually faux text. It’s Unicode. And so, if you visit my website LinkedIn-Makeover.com and you go to the free tools, I have this little wizard or online app, whatever you want to call it, where you type in, and it will apply formatting, but it’s not real formatting. It just looks like text but it’s more of like code and you copy it and you put it into your profile. And, voila! You suddenly have italics, you have bold, you have underline. You can even have cursive if you wanted to.

The one thing though, Pete, to know is that it looks like the word but it’s not so you shouldn’t be doing everything in that because it’s not optimized for search. The other thing is if a person who is blind and they’re using a screen reader, they’re not going to hear the right words because it’s, again, it’s fake texts. But, in small doses, it’s fabulous.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, Donna, I just love talking to someone who’s just delved deep into the details, they’re somebody like, “It’s not actually texts. It’s code. So, here are some implications of that. Noted. It’s going to look great with some tradeoffs so use it appropriately but just know that you can use it,” and just about nobody does because I don’t think I’ve seen it before. So, kudos, Donna.

Donna Serdula
Thank you. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Okay. So, that’s some of the particulars in terms of looking great and being friendly to the eyeball such that they’ll actually read it. And so then, what are some key thoughts for what we put in there? We want it to be friendly. We want it to make a good impression. Any particular do’s and don’ts?

Donna Serdula
I recognize that it’s 2021 and I shouldn’t have to say that the profile picture is important but, even to this day, it’s something that so many people really struggle with. So, a good do is work on getting a professionally taken photo. It does make a difference. Don’t just go with a selfie with weird things in the background. Don’t show your shoulders or your elbows. It’s a headshot for a reason, especially on a mobile phone which reduces it even smaller. You really want to make sure that it’s your face that’s filling that circle, so that’s a huge thing.

There’s a background graphic that very few people use, and this is a great place to really illustrate your brand and subtly suggest to people who don’t even have to read anything who you are and what you do and what you represent, so definitely utilize that. There’s a lot of areas to upload, photos and things like that, links to websites and whatnot. It’s now called the featured section. It actually provides like a carousel at the top of your profile, and that’s a fabulous place. Very few people don’t use it but I would definitely say it’s a do depending upon your job and who you are and what you do. It should be relatively easy to find something to populate that area.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we went right into some tactical stuff. Maybe I should zoom out a smidge. You’ve got a full-blown four-point methodology. Can you kind of walk us through that a little bit?

Donna Serdula
Step one, know your goal.

Pete Mockaitis
All right.

Donna Serdula
Know why you’re on it. We talked a little bit about that. Two, optimize your profile to your goal. Infuse your keywords. Tell the world who you are and why you shine. Three, start to grow your network. You need to connect. Have you ever seen that movie Glengarry Glen Ross?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, coffee is for closers.

Donna Serdula
Yeah. A, B, C. Always be…well, I like to say always be connecting. Always be connecting. A lot of people say to me, “Ugh, I don’t get LinkedIn.” And then I look at their profile, they’ve got like 10 connections, or even just a hundred connections, and you really do need to have a network, so try to get that online network to reflect your offline network. So, connect, connect, connect. So, that’s three.

Four, so now you want to engage. Now, you want to start to go to that homepage and scroll through and comment and like and share, and start to post. That’s when you can network in your pajamas. That’s when things should start to come together for you. And that’s when you’re going to start to see that there is opportunity in those hills out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, so we’ve talked a bit about the first two. Let’s hit keywords for a bit now. Well, hey, if you’ve gone deep into Unicode, you may have some answers that I don’t know. So, I guess I’ve played just a little bit of the Google search engine optimization game. Boy, that is a full-time operation and many people have made that their careers in terms saying, “Okay, so what are the keywords? What’s a traffic associated with those keywords? What’s the competition for those keywords? Where can I win? How can I write content that hits those and gets me surfaced in Google?”

And hopefully it’s good as opposed to, “Oh, man.” Well, I think we’ve all read it in terms of, “You might be asking yourself, ‘How do I get a good price on a mortgage?’ Well, the answer to getting a good price on a mortgage involves three key things. The first step to getting a good price on a good mortgage…” You know, it’s like…

Donna Serdula
Yeah, the redundant, yeah, the repetition of the key phrase.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we don’t want to do that. But I’m wondering, like is there any keyword research tools that give us a sense for, I don’t know, like Python versus Django? I barely know what I’m talking about here, so apologies, Python coders. But you get the idea. It’s like there are some opportunities where I can describe a given skill or set of expertise with many different potential keywords. So, how do I know which ones to go for and optimize for?

Donna Serdula
And, sadly, when you’re on LinkedIn, in your account, looking at your profile, it really is almost like pin the tail on the donkey, wearing a blindfold. LinkedIn doesn’t give a lot of insight into how well your profile is performing for keywords, what are the most searched keywords. Those are things that they kind of hold in the back. They don’t show their cards very easily.

What I recommend doing is this. It’s knowing, “What do you feel would a person be searching for if they were looking for you?” And, yes, there is a whole bunch of different keywords. Choose the ones that you feel are the most obvious, the most used, and then use them organically through your profile. The fields that are most sensitive for search – your headline. That right there, if you can infuse top keywords in there, you will find that you turn up higher and more often for those keywords.

If you can use those keywords not in a repetitive or obnoxious way but you can organically use it in the narrative of your About section, that’s going to be very helpful. Again, not in a repetitive way, not in a bulleted list type of way, but you’re weaving them into your story. That’s a good thing. Job titles, again, perfect for keywords. Very few people do but that area does make a difference as does the job description.

So, if you could put it in those areas, and really think, “If I’m looking for a job,” look at the job description, look at a couple job descriptions, highlight. What are the words that you keep seeing repeated over and over and over again? What are those core competencies? What are those applications that you need to know? That will give you an idea. And then what you do, Pete, is you wait and then you watch, and you see. Are you getting hits to your profile?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. And they’ll tell you, like, “You’re viewed this many times,” so you know that. And I think it also tells you, “You’ve shown up this many times in search.” So, views of my profile – 1500. I’m looking at mine now. And so, I could see that and then I can just peruse, well, you looked at me. Hi, there.

Donna Serdula
I like to do my due diligence.

Pete Mockaitis
And I can kind of peruse. It tells you, “Found you via LinkedIn profile,” and it will also say, “Found you via homepage,” and found people similar to you but it doesn’t also say, “Found you via search.”

Donna Serdula
I don’t think it does.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, you set it straight.

Donna Serdula
But when they say, “Found you through the profile,” you can almost surmise that it was either they were doing a name-based search or they were doing a keyword search, and you popped up.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think your point associated with just knowing your audience is huge because, well, I looked at this once back in the day when I was doing more Myers Briggs training, which I’m capable of doing but that’s not been my focus lately. And so, you find tons of profiles that will have MBTI in their headline as their title, which, as a type practitioner, I know, and many others do, that that stands for Myers Brigg Type Indicator, which is the name of the tool.

However, I have learned that most people, when they’re searching for that, do not search for MBTI; they search for Myers Briggs. And so, just knowing that and, for all you Myers Briggs practitioners on LinkedIn, here’s a free one for you. Just about no one says Myers Briggs in their title even though that’s what more people look for. So, you can sort of try that out and I guess just maybe ask your target audience, like, “Hey, so if you’re kind of looking for someone to do a personality workshop for you, like what might you type into LinkedIn?” It’s like, “I don’t know, maybe Myers Briggs, maybe DISC.” It’s like, “Okay. Yeah, I know she did not say MBTI.” So, that gets you there.

Donna Serdula
Yeah, sometimes you get in the weeds of your own knowledge and you have to break through and step out and look at it. I see that a lot of times when people say to me, “Oh, I’m a dynamic person and I do all…” they’re using these crazy words and crazy jargon, and it’s like, “Talk to me like I’m a three-year old. Talk to your audience like they’re a three-year old. It’s going to help you really simplify the message and make it so much more accessible to the world at large.” Of course, you weigh that because if your target audience really does talk like that then that’s great. Go for it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s true.

Donna Serdula
But I think sometimes people do get a little too caught up in the weeds. They’re so close they can’t gain that focus.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great because I’m thinking I just recently learned the term capital allocator. I didn’t know what that meant. But there may be times you want to call yourself a capital allocator based on who you’re attracting, at times you want to call yourself a financial planner based on who you’re going after, even though there’s a fair bit of overlap in capital allocators and financial planners, “Well, Pete, actually, there’s several distinctions much like Python and Django.” But that’s a great perspective there in terms of how they would speak. And it’s unlikely someone is going to search for a dynamic multi-potentialite even though you might be that.

Donna Serdula
You might be. I remember a very specific client of mine had said to me, “Donna, before the profile, I was getting a ton of hits. I was getting found and I was getting a lot more inquiries on LinkedIn.” And, of course, I heard that, I was like, “Do you hate me? This sounds bad.” And he said, “No. Since you worked on the profile, you really dialed in to the right audience. It’s much more qualified, so, yeah, I’m getting less but the ones that I’m getting really want me and I’m aligned to those opportunities that they’re presenting to me. Before, I was getting all types of opportunities that I wasn’t interested in and was a waste of time.” So, you do have to sort of weigh it. You want to make sure that it’s the right audience and you’ve got the right message, and what’s coming to is good opportunity.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s so great. And, as you say it, I think all the little pieces are connecting here in terms of like your image and your banner, was the term I used there, you got your headshot and you’ve got your other image at the top.

Donna Serdula
Yeah, we call it the background graphic but banner works too.

Pete Mockaitis
Your headshot, your background graphic, and it all comes together in terms of telling the story, like the individual pieces, and you might optimize incorrectly. I remember in my early days, I got some headshots and I thought, “Oh, man, this one I looked really…” I thought I looked hot. I was wearing a black buttoned-down and a dark background, and I thought, “Oh, man,” there’s like a smouldering gaze, it’s like, “Okay, yeah, Pete, you do. Great job. They caught a good angle. But, really, we need you to show up as the friendly high-energy speaker guy and not a model.” So, I was like, “Oh, yeah, good point. Good point.”

So, I might look not as good in a, I don’t know, GQ sense of the word in one headshot but, for the audience and the impression I’m trying to give, it works better even though, “My rosacea is more prominent in that photo,” well, we’re going to go with that one because it’s going to get the job done that we’re looking to get done.

Donna Serdula
I know it sounds so strange but, I always say, people feel this need to, because LinkedIn is this professional network, they want to look serious. But when they look serious, they tend to look angry. And you want to seem approachable, you want to seem friendly, you want to make it easy for a person to want to reach out to learn more about you. And so, upload a picture where you do look more friendly. And that, of course, trumps the professional picture. If a headshot, it may be well taken, but if it’s not presenting you in that friendly light, it’s not going to work.

I’m going to tell you another thing, Pete. This is huge and it’s so obvious. People who don’t include their contact information, they don’t put their phone number in, they don’t put their email address, and they make it very, very hard to reach you. One of my biggest pet peeves.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think maybe some people have a worry or a concern, like, “Oh, I’m going to get all these spam callers or all these random calling me.” But I’ll tell you, I’ve got my phone number in there. Hello, listeners, you can give me a ring. My phone number is in there and just about never do I get super random calls that I think are traced back to LinkedIn. There’s robo spam callers but they hit everybody indiscriminately. So, I think, yeah, if anyone has any worries on that dimension, in my own experience, and you’ve got a lot more LinkedIn stuff than I do, it’s really not that noticeable. I don’t think I’ve suffered any negative consequences for having freely shared that contact info there. What’s your take?

Donna Serdula
I believe if you want opportunity to knock, you’ve got to tell it what door to knock on. It’s just that simple. Put your information out there. I actually wouldn’t mind if I got a random Telepass calling if I also knew that I was getting all these fabulous opportunities as well. It’s almost a balance. But I agree, I really don’t get a lot of garbage. I get people who want my services, who need my expertise, people that I can help. And, to me, that’s a win-win.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect. All right. So, let’s talk about build the connections and engaging. How do we get that well?

Donna Serdula
Yeah, I hate to say this. I really do. I feel like it’s been overstated but send connection requests, put in a nice little note, say something personable, let the person know why you’re connecting, unless, of course…and this is the thing. If you know the person, like I’m going to connect with you after this show. I don’t think I need to say, “Hey, we just talked an hour ago. I think you’re going to remember me.”

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, yeah, Donna.”

Donna Serdula
So, in that situation, I don’t have a problem not adding a personalized note, like, to me you don’t have to do it always across the board. But if you are kind of going outside of your real network and you’re connecting to people from maybe a long time ago, it is nice to add a little bit of a personalized note to say, “Hey, do you remember me?” And I think it starts that conversation off. So, hit connect, give a personalized note if the moment calls for it, and keep connecting. It’s just not something that you do once. It’s something that you do often. It should be a part of your normal business world that, as you meet people, as you go into meetings, connect.

There’s that quote, “Your network is your net worth.” And it’s something that I think a lot of people dismiss. And I remember years and years ago when I was in college, a woman came and was like, “Oh, you got to create a network.” Like it just sounded so intimidating and strange. And, really, all it is is keeping in touch with people, being friendly, popping up to say hello, making connections. That’s all it really is. And with LinkedIn, it’s a very easy way to connect and grow that network and continue to stay in touch with people.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah.

Donna Serdula
So, that’s it. It’s that simple but it’s something that very few people do.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so let’s say you’re one of those folks who has a hundred connections on LinkedIn, and you and I know that such a person knows many more people on LinkedIn, and they could go ahead and connect with him, and then the whole world opens up to you. And that’s what I found in terms of one side said, “Okay, I’m just going to go ahead and find some people I know, and I’m going to connect.”

And then, I don’t know, I felt just like a surge of powerful feeling just in terms of saying, “Okay. Well, shoot, now that I’ve spent a little time on this, like a huge universe is now open to me in terms of secondary connections. So, if I have like a hundred connections before, and then built it out to a thousand, it’s like, wow, I could get introductions so readily to so many places now. That’s hugely cool.” So, if someone is at a hundred, how do you recommend they get to a thousand real connections relatively painlessly?

Donna Serdula
Well, they could certainly upload their email address book and allow LinkedIn to do like a match, un-match and decide who’s already there, and just mass connect. That’s one way. Another easy way is to go into the My Network icon and scroll down that page. There’s a People You May Know area where LinkedIn makes these connections, they say, “Oh, you’re connected to Pete, and Pete’s connected to so and so, then you might be connected to that person.” So, that’s an easy way to do it.

I actually kind of just like the old-fashion sit down and really start thinking about the people that you’ve met throughout your career and your school and life in general, and just keep jotting them down in a notebook and see who’s there, see who’s connected. And then if you know someone, you have like a history with a person, you could go to their profile and look at their connections, and plod through that, connecting with the people that you know in common. So, those are all ways that you can grow your network.

But what’s really important is when you grow that network, you’re going to be found by more people because when a person is searched in LinkedIn, when they’re doing a name-based search, yeah, they’re searching the entire database of users. But if a regular free user is doing a keyword-based search, think of yourself, when you do that, you’re seeing first-degree connections, you’re seeing second-degree connections, and you’re seeing third-degree connections. That’s what you’re searching. So, if you want to be found by more people, and you want to discover more people, you need to be in more networks. And that opens up and it really explodes being found and getting found.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think that flywheel, that virtuous cycle really shows up because, let’s say, you have a hundred, you spend a little bit of time and then you connect with an extra 50. Well, now, LinkedIn has so much more useful information to share with more people you know, it’s like, “Well, as a matter of fact, I do know that person, and that person, and that person.” So, I find that it goes pretty darn quick in terms of getting there, it’s like, you make a bundle of connection requests, a week later, they’ve accepted. And now there’s a whole new bundle. Repeat, repeat, repeat, like, “Hey, what do you know?” In a couple of months, you went from a hundred to a thousand, and it didn’t take much time and it’s kind of fun, like, “Oh, what’s this guy up to? Oh, wow, it’s good time.”

Donna Serdula
Yeah, it’s true. And when you connect, use it as an excuse to maybe reach out and start more conversations. If you’re going to do a huge burst and you’re going from a hundred to a thousand, it might not be possible, but do try. As you’re connecting, see if they’re active on LinkedIn. And if they are, maybe just bookmark their activity and go back and check to see what they’re posting, and then engage with them.

And when you start to engage with certain people on LinkedIn who are themselves active, you’ll start to see that they fill your feed more often because LinkedIn likes to show their feed. They like their feed to be people that you know talking about the things that you care about. And so, follow the right hashtags, connect with the right people, engage with them on that feed, and you’ll start to find that LinkedIn is fun. It’s people that you know talking about the things you care about.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And then let’s talk about engaging. And, particularly, I’m curious about any pro tips on how to request an introduction? Like, let’s say, you’ve got your network, and you say, “Oh, wow, I’ve got second-degree connections and all kinds of places I’d like to learn about maybe to work or to sell or whatnot.” Any best practices for how we make that request, like, “Could you introduce me to so and so?”

Donna Serdula
Yeah, at one time, LinkedIn had a very structured process for doing that. They don’t now. If you’re looking for an intro button, you’re not going to find it. And the way you do it is more manual. You look at a person, you find them, you see who do you know that’s connected to them, and then you just send them a message. You can also go into More and, say, “Send profile,” and so you can send that person the profile with, “Hey, this is the person I want an introduction to.”

But certain things to keep in mind. I have 29,000 first-degree connections, so if you’re going to ask me to make an introduction to someone, there’s a very good chance that I do not know them personally. So, be aware that if the person has an excessive size network, the answer might be, “I can’t help you,” and that’s okay. Don’t get hung up on that.

But, at the same time, when you’re going to make that introduction, if you could give the person that you’re asking as much information, “This is how you can introduce me to them. This is what it is that I want from them,” and make it very clear who you are and how they can describe you and what you want so that person doesn’t feel like they’re helping a spam artist defraud someone. But make it as very clear as possible, I think you’re going to find that, even if that person doesn’t know that person very well, the introduction will take place and it will be successful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Donna, tell me, any other key things you want to share before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Donna Serdula
I will say this, we touched a little bit about my formatter on the website and we talked about how important the LinkedIn headline is, and I will say to your audience, if you are sitting there and you’re looking at your profile, and you’re thinking, “I really do want to optimize this and I need help,” there is a free resources section on my website and there’s a LinkedIn headline generator. It’s a little app and they just fill out just a couple terms, put a little dot on different buckets that describe them, and it pushes out a headline that’s really awesome, and it’s optimized, and they’ll get more views and it’ll turn up more often in search. So, just know that there is a lot of free help out there and there’s an entire section on my website full of those types of tools.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, great. Thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Donna Serdula
This is a Tim Ferriss quote, and it says, “It’s lonely at the top. Ninety-nine percent of people are convinced they are incapable of achieving great things so they aim for mediocre. The level of competition is thus fiercest for realistic goals, paradoxically making them the most competitive.”

And I just love this quote because I find it’s so true. In fact, right before my father died, he had said to me, one of his biggest regrets was that he didn’t dream big enough. And this is something that I’m seeing as I work with my clients, executives, and entrepreneurs, and professionals from all over the world, it’s seeing people who have decided to dream big and go a little further and do a little bit more. And it is scary but you can. You can reach for the stars and you can do it.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Donna Serdula
This isn’t like an absolute study but I found this fascinating. If you were to fold a piece of paper in half 42 times, it would reach the moon. And I really love that. Just thinking about it, folding it 42 times, I couldn’t imagine that this is true but I started doing some Google. And it’s true, it’s the exponential growth, and this inspires me because it really reminds me that it’s just these little steps will get you somewhere much bigger.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I guess that’s about a trillion sheets thickness there.

Donna Serdula
Oh, yeah. I think someone said you’d need like a sheet the size of the Earth, so you can get close to it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, there’s so many parallel, well, takeaways in terms of compound interest or growth, or in terms of like what happens when something just grows and grows and grows. And a favorite book?

Donna Serdula
I’m one of those crazy people. I love the Think and Grow Rich and the Law of Attraction. I love that stuff. I love it so much. My favorite book is one where you either love her or you hate her, but I love The Fountainhead. I just loved it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite tool?

Donna Serdula
I just recently purchased a reMarkable 2 and it’s a handwriting tablet so you can write on a tablet so you don’t need a notebook after notebook after notebook. It’s just this great gadget and it allows me to just do what I love to do, which is just handwrite but not use any more paper. It’s all digitalized.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Donna Serdula
Which goes back to the reMarkable 2, which is I love journaling and I love to-do lists. And, to me, it’s so important to get what’s inside of you out, and I think there’s something very soulful and inspiring when you can take your pen and drag it. If it’s not paper, then you know the reMarkable 2, but really get your thoughts out there and know what you need to do, but also know what happens so you can start to see repetitions because our memories are so short. We don’t even know how short they are so it’s important, I think, to really record your successes and the record things that have happened so you can remind yourself, and you can stop making the same mistakes over and over and over again.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you again and again?

Donna Serdula
I’ve said, “Success on LinkedIn is getting off LinkedIn,” and I often hear people attribute that to me, and I did say it. And, to me, it’s about sometimes people hide on social media and they hide on LinkedIn, and they hide behind the messages and they hide behind the posts. And, really, I find that the best relationships I’ve had from LinkedIn are the ones where I’ve gone to the person’s profile, picked up the phone, and called them. And that’s where the real world is where the real relationships are formed. So, I’d like to say get off LinkedIn, call the person up, take them out for lunch or coffee, and I think you’re going to find that it’s an even deeper relationship that can be formed.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Donna Serdula
Certainly, LinkedIn. I always visit my LinkedIn profile but my website is LinkedIn-Makeover.com, and that’s got tons of free tools that talks about our services. Everything I do is transparent so you can see our pricing, you can see our examples, you can see our portfolio, everything is there.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Donna Serdula
Yeah, I’m going to go back to what I said earlier. Definitely, I challenge all of you to really think about who you are, where you’re going, and look at that profile, and don’t just align it to where you are. Align it to where you want to go. Make it more future-oriented. Tell people. Maybe not just show but really talk about what you’ve done, where you’re going. And if you need help, there is my LinkedIn headline generator and, certainly, we’re here to help as well.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Donna, this has been a treat. Thank you so much and I wish you much luck in all of your connecting.

Donna Serdula
Thank you so much.

667: How to Cultivate Your Influence and Build Powerful Connections with Jon Levy

By | Podcasts | No Comments

 

 

Jon Levy provides foundational principles for connecting better and building your influence.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Why relationships are the #1 predictor of your success 
  2. How to make networking feel more natural
  3. How to build trust quickly with vulnerability loops

 

About Jon

Jon Levy is a behavioral scientist best known for his work in influence, human connection, and decision making. Jon specializes in applying the latest research to transform the ways companies approach marketing, sales, consumer engagement, and culture. His clients range from Fortune 500 brands, like Microsoft, Google, AB-InBev, and Samsung, to startups.

Resources mentioned in the show:

Thank you, sponsors!

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Jon Levy Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Jon, thanks for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Jon Levy
Thank you. I’m super excited. I also want to learn how to be awesome-r at my job. I’m looking through like osmosis and hanging out with you I could enjoy my work more.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly. Well, I’d love it if you could kick us off by sharing a story. We’re talking about influence here. Could you tell us a cool story about a professional who really transformed their career by cultivating influence?

Jon Levy
So, one of the people that I think is super interesting is a woman named Jean Nidetch. And Jean was, kind of in her eyes, an overweight housewife. And one day, while going to the supermarket to pick up some food, she was going through the aisles and an old acquaintance of hers says, “Hi, you look great,” and she was feeling very beautiful. And the acquaintance said, “When are you due?” And Jean was mortified, the woman thought she was pregnant.

And she said to herself, “I’m going to change my life. I’m going to finally lose this weight.” And what she did was she signed up for a weight-loss course provided by the city of New York. And she had lost some weight but she realized she was really lonely. So, she invited a bunch of women to her home to play mahjong, some game like that, but really it was an opportunity for her to talk about weight loss and her struggling with it.

And the group bonded so much that they kept meeting, and then, eventually, that turned into Weight Watchers and became an international sensation of a company. She became a multimillionaire, a celebrity. And the way that she fundamentally did it was by gathering people and creating an intimate and safe space and, over time, that grew into her influence. And I just loved the story especially because, at the time, she couldn’t even have a credit card with her name on it, it said Ms. Marty Nidetch because women couldn’t really have businesses back then.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. So, then the magic happened when she did some inviting, and said, “Hey, come on over.”

Jon Levy
Yeah, it’s pretty incredible. So, in my personal view, our influence is a byproduct of who we’re connected to, how much they trust us, and the experience of belonging that we share. And what she was able to do was find something to connect with people that they cared about, which is their health and wellness.

She created an incredibly safe space of trust, and then the people who participated in the program had this incredible sense of community because it was that one place where they could speak openly about the trials and tribulations that they went through, the shame that they experience, the struggle from day to day to not eat some cake. And I think that that’s pretty incredible that she was able to do that, and then figure out how to make that scale so that people around the world could really have that experience and belonging.

Pete Mockaitis
And your book You’re Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence, you’ve got a number of principles and stories along these lines. Can you share with us kind of what is the big idea here?

Jon Levy
So, here’s what’s kind of funny, in my 20s, I kept trying to change my life by like reading every self-help book and setting my alarm for 6:00 a.m. to go work out and then I’d beat myself up for not going to the gym or hitting snooze ten times. I was overweight, I was broke, and I was single, and I couldn’t seem to figure out how to get my break.

And I was sitting in a seminar, and the seminar leader said, “The fundamental element that defines the quality of our lives are the people we surround ourselves with and the conversations that we have with them.” And I said, “Well, if that’s true, then maybe, instead of beating myself up for not going to the gym, what I should do is make friends with a whole bunch of athletes and then it’ll be part of my social circle to exercise. It’ll just be a part of my habits.”

Well, it turns out, these two guys Nicholas Christakis and James Fowler, researchers, were curious about the obesity epidemic, and what they found was kind of startling. They found that if you have a friend who’s obese, your probability of obesity increases by 45%. Your friends who don’t know that person have a 20% increase chance, and their friends have a 5% increase chance, which means that everything flows through our communities or our social networks, and that’s true for happiness, marriage and divorce rates, smoking habits, voting habits.

And so, the basic premise of the book is that if we can curate the people who can have the biggest impact on our lives around us, and create deep and meaningful relationships, that’ll have a profound impact on everybody’s life in a positive way. And that’s true whether it’s business or it’s longevity. The greatest predictor of human longevity is not exercise or eating healthy. The greatest predictors are, number two, strong social ties, and, number one, social integration, you’re part of the community.

On the business front, you can measure employee sick days, profitability, and stock value to the level of oxytocin, that cuddle chemical, in employees’ bloodstreams. So, the basic premise is, “How do we connect? How do we build trust? And how do we give people a sense of belonging so we can really have an impact on our lives?”

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And so, when you’re talking about cultivating influence, you’re not so much, well, you tell me, talking about how to be super persuasive so much as cultivating the influences around you, to you, and for you.

Jon Levy
Yeah, I’d agree. So, it’s interesting, right now, the word influence has kind of shifted because of people taking photos of avocado toast on Instagram. And, don’t get me wrong, I really respect people who can cultivate a large audience. It’s like a skillset that I fundamentally do not have. But when we really look at the kind of influence we care about, it’s less about that, it’s less about like marketing a product or getting people to sign up for something. It’s really like, “Do I know the right person to get my kid into the high school I want to get them into?” “I’m not feeling well, do I have a friend who’s a medical expert who can answer a question?”

And so, it’s mostly things that are a byproduct of relationships, “Do I have enough trust built up with that client for them to close the deal?” Like, that’s the kind of influence we want, I’d actually argue in general. Now, proxy for a lot of people is follower count but my guess is that that’s probably generally less satisfying than having a close friend.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, certainly.

Jon Levy
And, like, I don’t know. I don’t have a really large following but I do have a lot of close friends and I really love having them, so.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so lay it on us, that sounds like a great thing to have, influence and this view of it, and we’ve got a bit of a key prongs there to pursue in terms of making friends and having great conversations with them. So, how, in practice, can one do that well?

Jon Levy
Great question. So, let’s split it up into three topics, is that okay?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure.

Jon Levy
There’s, “How do we get people to want to connect with us? How do we build trust quickly? And how do we really develop an experience of belonging?” So, it turns out that what we’ve been touting in our society is that people who are great at connecting go and network. Now, I don’t know about you, I hate networking.

It is anxiety-ridden, it’s uncomfortable, you’re never really talking to the person you want to talk to. It feels really transactional. And, in fact, research by Francesca Gino from Harvard Business School found that people feel, in an unconscious way, dirty. They feel the need to wash, the implicit association. Nobody wants to network.

Now, what’s interesting is we do not feel that way when we’re making friends. And so, let’s forget networking and let’s ask the question, “What will have somebody want to be our friend?” And so, what we have somebody to want to be our friend is kind of like basic things. If there’s something interesting or novel. Meaning, what you’re up to or doing, does it stand out in some way that would make me curious or interested? Are you in a curated group? Are the people that you spend time with really interesting and maybe from diverse backgrounds so that if I engage with that group or community, I’d get a lot of value?

For some people, it’s around skills, and opportunities, and access, and resources. So, what value do you provide? So, if we want to get people’s attention, the context is, “What will attract them?” And I would say that our best bet is to actually just invite people to do something with us. And the reason I say that is very specific, it has to do with that second characteristic, which is trust.

And I’ll give you an example. Do you have any kids?

Pete Mockaitis
I do. Two toddlers.

Jon Levy
Okay. Two toddlers, perfect. So, let me ask you a question. You know, how in life, traditionally, if you want to win some deals where people will take you in the business world to a business dinner?

Pete Mockaitis
All right, yeah.

Jon Levy
And do you find those particularly enjoyable?

Pete Mockaitis
It’s hit or miss.

Jon Levy
Yeah, but that’s exactly the point, is that if the person is really dynamic and fun – great. Otherwise, you’re stuck there and locked in for like an hour and a half and it’s miserable. So, giving somebody or paying for something for somebody doesn’t necessarily get them to like you more or trust you more. If you go to a party and they give you a swag bag, what do you intend to do with that swag bag?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s so funny, I’ve had the experience many times where I have a rental car and I am driving into the rental car lot where I’m returning it, then I have the bag and I’m looking at it over the trash can and deciding which items I’m going to go and take versus pitch.

Jon Levy
Yeah, yeah, because then you have to travel back home on a flight and you’re like, “Oh, my God, I’m not going to carry a, I don’t know, a Powerade onto a flight.” Like, “I don’t want 14 postcards from these brands with their stickers on them.” It’s just not anything I care about. And that’s the point, is that we don’t win people over with gifts. You can. There are very specific situations.

So, let’s say I found out you have two toddlers, if I get you like the most amazing, I don’t know, Baby Bjorn or something like that, in the world, like a toddler holder, you’d be like, “Oh, my God, Jon, you’re a lifesaver. You totally get the situation in my life.”

Pete Mockaitis
Right, yeah. So much more for targeted, specific, applicable.

Jon Levy
Exactly. But that doesn’t scale very well. Like, I can do that a few times. I can’t do that with a thousand people. So, the question is, “What actually does work?” And it turns out, the exact opposite of gifting works, which is it’s called the IKEA effect. It states that we disproportionately care about our IKEA furniture because we had to assemble it.

So, if I can figure out a way for you to invest effort into our relationship, you’ll care more about it. So, you know how a lot of people are like, “Oh, I don’t like asking for favors”? Terrible idea. Ask for favors. People, generally, feel flattered that you asked, and by them fulfilling on the favor, they will actually like you more. So, the first thing is that. Let’s apply the IKEA effect.

A second is let’s find an activity or an opportunity to apply the IKEA effect. So, rather than take somebody for a drink or a dinner, go workout together. This will cause the two of you to invest effort into one another and care more about each other in the process. So, when I was 28, I was trying to figure out how to connect with really influential people. I developed these models and I end up launching a secret dining experience.

Twelve people are invited, they’re not allowed to talk about what they do or even give their last name. They cooked dinner together, and when they sit down to eat, they get to guess what everybody does and, of course, eat a terrible meal. I mean, 12 people who don’t know how to cook really don’t make a great meal.

Pete Mockaitis
Also, I think you’re going to need a big kitchen with 12 people actively doing stuff.

Jon Levy
I live in New York. I actually don’t have a huge kitchen. I actually kind of like the fact that they’re stuck rubbing elbows up against each other because it creates more intimacy. But you’ll notice the IKEA effect is in full force. They are working together towards a joint goal with a time that’s time-locked so either they get the work done and we eat, or the meat is undercooked.

So, this leads to a lot of effort being put and a lot of fast bonding. And, in general, human beings don’t bond well when they’re just like interviewing one another. We’ve developed, as a species, that works well together. And so, by having a shared activity, it takes the social pressure off of conversation, and then conversation flows more naturally.

And so, it turns out that if we want to connect and build trust quickly, the best bet is to find an activity that we actually enjoy, and then invite people to participate with us in that activity. Now, let me emphasize, I might a bit more extroverted so I might do something for 12 people. You might be more introverted and just invite two people to come with you on a hunt, or for an art class, or for some kind of activity that you really enjoy, maybe playing basketball. I don’t know.

Whatever it is, it just needs to be something you enjoy because, otherwise, it’s going to feel like a real chore to keep doing it to meet people.

Pete Mockaitis
Certainly. And I guess I’m curious, like if you’re inviting someone, is there a minimum level of something that needs to be in place before you issue an invitation? So, like, let’s just say, I bumped into you, you are someone who knows somebody I’m having coffee with, you say hey to that someone, and then I say, “Hey, Jon, do you want to go on a hike on Saturday?”

Jon Levy
That’d be super weird.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. So, how do we think about the pre-invitation relationship?

Jon Levy
So, there are two or three things that we want to look at. One is I’d encourage for it not just to be a hike. That doesn’t possess novelty.
Human beings are driven by novelty. When something is new or different, they want to engage. And so, in general, rather than just have a hike, add an additional layer of novelty. Have it be like, “Oh, each person brings one problem they’re struggling with, and by the end of the hike, the entire group coaches them through it.” So, now it’s an idea exploration hike and it has direct value to the people participating, especially if we add this additional factor, which is it’s not just novel, but if it’s well-curated.

So, if I say, “Hey, we’ve never met. You’re friends with Tim’s? Great. We both know Tim. Pete, I run an idea hike and I run it with a group of people who are all entrepreneurs who have companies that do over a million dollars in business. Five of us go at a time, each of us brings one idea that we’re struggling with, all of us are experts in different areas. So, one is an internet marketer, the other is an author, and another one is TV show writer, whatever it is. I think it would be super fun if you joined this great group of people. We’re going on a hike on Tuesday. Can you make the time?”

Now, suddenly, you see something novel, something that has shared effort, something that is very well-curated, all these successful people that you get to connect with, and you have a direct value, it’s a very generous experience. You see, “Oh, wow, maybe I’ll finally find the solution to this issue that I’m struggling with.”

And so, you see, you can take a simple idea. I’ve never, listen, I literally made this up with you right now. I’ve never heard of a hike like this. But the fact that it has all this value in there, and it’s a really simple design. Pete, how much would it cost to go on a hike like that?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I mean, if you try to package it and have a fancy landing page and all that, it could be thousands of dollars.

Jon Levy
Yeah, but I mean like if I just say, “Hey, this is something that I do,” it wouldn’t cost anything in the sense that people can get themselves to the bottom of the trail, and, let’s say, Hollywood right there is all the Runyon Canyons and all that, like it doesn’t matter how much money you have. You can absolutely gather people or connect with them and create deep connections with them without spending a fortune, is kind of what I’m pointing to.

There’s this misconception that in order to connect with people, especially the people that we want to do business with, it’s going to cost a lot of money. But it turns out that, since human beings are wired for connection and wired for developing relationships, it’s the people who have the least amount of money who are often very good at it.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s cool. Well, I want to make sure we covered that piece then. So, what are we thinking about with regard to the pre-invitation? So, you’ve boosted the value proposition, if you will, of your invitation, like, “That thing you’re talking about sounds real cool.” So, how do we think about sort of like the minimum level of pre-connection to issue that invitation?

Jon Levy
Oh, I think that you actually need none if the event is novel enough and has some proof of concept. So, if you’re allowed to mention some of the names of the people, I think it was the book Made to Stick or something like that, talked about the Sinatra role, this idea that if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. All you need is like one example that, “Oh, the founder of Allbirds. It’ll be like the last time we had the founder of Allbirds and the author of The Subtle Art of Not Giving a… whatever.” Then, suddenly, you have proof of concept. Those are the types of people who come.

So, in that case, I can say, “Oh, I saw you on the Forbes 30, under 30, or whatever it is, list. You seem to be doing really interesting things. This is the activity I host. Would you like to join sometime? Here are the upcoming dates.” And you could literally, whatever your thing is to meet people and connect with them, you could go on two hikes a week and so that there’s always something to connect with people, and always an opportunity to have really healthy pro-social behavior and activities.

Pete Mockaitis
And I’m intrigued. So, the novel dimension is, I get it, that’s really cool in terms of dopamine and excitement and…

Jon Levy
Creates curiosity, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
So, I get that that’s awesome. But now I’m thinking about sort of the big five personalities and how, you know, I’m thinking of folks who are low on extraversion and openness to new experiences. It’s like the things we’re talking about, they sound really cool to me, but other personalities would be like, “Oh, that seems like a bit much in terms of it’s, I don’t know, risky, scary. I’m not that adventurous.” So, Jon, do you have any, I don’t know if the word is boring, but…?

Jon Levy
Safer. Let’s put on the safer suit. So, I’m going to lean on another book and thought leader on this. There’s something called The Creative Curve, it was a book by Allen Gannett. And in it he suggests that something is created when it’s familiar enough that it feels safe but new enough that it’s exciting. If it’s too safe, it’s boring. If it’s too novel, it’s esoteric. It’s like Bjork’s music.

So, I think you’re absolutely right that there are personality types that may feel uncomfortable with going hiking, and I respect that. That’s totally fine. So, there’s two or three different ways to look at it. One is, maybe, invite a few friends that write for Outlet to come or make friends with people who write for Outlet, and get a story done about it so that you have additional proof that you’re not like inviting people to steal their kidneys. That’s one angle. But that happens over time. It’s not going to happen your second time. It’ll happen your 10th time, 20th time, whatever it is.

The second is you can also do like a board game or a dinner party, and use formats that are more familiar to the people than hiking. The issue is that you’re not necessarily looking to connect with everybody. You’re not trying to boil the ocean and make friends with the entire world. What you’re doing is trying to find people in certain industries that have values that you care about, and sometimes that means that you won’t meet specific people, but that’s okay.

Like, frankly, if people are so introverted, they’re probably not going to networking events anyway, or conferences. And in those cases, you’re probably better off with just a direct introduction and hoping that you get to meet them for something more quiet. That’s it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. So, there we have it. So, you have an activity and it’s sort of a clear offer that is somewhat novel and fun and valuable, and gives an opportunity for people to meet and connect and connect better than just chatting because they’re doing something together, so all that’s excellent. So, then let’s say you’re in it. So, here we are, we’re cooking, we’re hiking, we’re doing the board game, and we’re doing the thing, any particular do’s and don’ts for connecting well in the moment?
Jon Levy
Sure. So, here’s something I only learned while researching this new book. We tend to think that trust precedes vulnerability. Like, if I trust you, I’ll be willing to risk more. But it turns out that it actually doesn’t work that way. It turns out that it’s a process called a vulnerability loop. So, let’s say I started working for you, Pete, and I’m sitting in a cubicle or whatever not far from you. And you hear me say, “Oh, my God, I’m so overwhelmed.” I’ve just signaled vulnerability. I said, “I don’t know how I’m going to handle something.” Now, if you ignore that or make fun of it, trust will be reduced.

Pete Mockaitis
“Ah, Jon, you loser. Buckle down. You can handle it.”

Jon Levy
Now, in certain environments, you might be like in the Navy Seals, it’s probably like the culture but in most offices, people are going to feel really insecure and then not put themselves out there again. But if you acknowledge it, and say, “Jon, my first week I was totally overwhelmed. What are you dealing with?” Then you’ve just signaled vulnerability and now we can trust each other at this higher level. And it’s these vulnerability loops that actually develop trust. That’s why trust, generally, develops over time through small actions.

Now, the IKEA effect, one of the reasons I think it exists is because, as you’re investing effort in a joint activity, it creates a bunch of these vulnerability loops, like, “Oh, my God, pass me the…” then you throw me like whatever I need. And, suddenly, we’ve opened and closed a bunch of loops. Now, this also means that when we meet people, we want to be aware of when they’re putting out loops which we sometimes we don’t notice.

So, if you’re saying, “Oh, how’s your week?” “Oh, my God, it was so stressful.” That is the opening of a loop and that’s your opportunity to increase trust. Now, watch out, there are some people who will verbally vomit all over you but, for the most part, being aware of them and acknowledging them and giving people a space for that means that you can increase trust faster.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, that’s a really interesting framework right there in terms of, “Can you pass me the salt?” I mean, that is like the tiniest bit of vulnerability but, at the same time, it’s like, “Look, I’ve got some stuff sizzling on this pan. This is the perfect moment I need the salt and, yet, there’s 12 people in the kitchen, I can’t reach it right now, so hook me up.” So, that is a little something and I see how that takes you there.

So, let’s zoom way in on these bits. So, some says, “I’m so stressed, I’m so overwhelmed, I’m tired. I’m worried about this thing. My toddler has been screaming all afternoon. He’s driving me nuts.” So, someone puts one of those out there, let’s hear some best-practice responses.

Jon Levy
And I also want to add something that, for some people, saying, “I got a promotion” is a vulnerability loop.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you.

Jon Levy
It has to do with the level of comfort that somebody feels.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s true. Like, if someone disclosed a financial item to me and I’m trying to keep it as vague as possible and respectful, and I can tell, it’s like, “Whoa, that is vulnerable” in that I know that something about your situation that is surprising and could cause me to look at you in a different light, better or worse, like, “Holy crap, I didn’t know you were so loaded,” or, “Oh, dang, government assistance, I didn’t know you were really struggling.” Either way, it’s vulnerable and it could be vulnerable in a positive way.

Jon Levy
Yeah, it’s super interesting. And the issue is that, in general, we don’t flex the vulnerability muscle in a great way. Part of it is that we can accomplish a vulnerability loop both by paying attention when other people are opening them or by us opening it in a way that gives them an opportunity to close it. So, if I said, “You know, Pete, I am so impressed with what you’ve accomplished with this podcast. I tried to launch a podcast a while back and it was, I did a bunch of episodes and I just didn’t have the energy to keep it going. I’m beyond impressed.” That in itself is a vulnerability loop. I just called one out on myself.

Pete Mockaitis
You’re right. And it’s easy to let them just blow right past you, it’s like, “Hey, man, you’re not that lucky. You just got to keep on hustling and grinding and get a good team.” It’s like, okay, that actually did accomplish nothing in terms of like relationship-building.

Jon Levy
It blew it off. It said, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m whatever,” on your opinion of me. And so, we aren’t really good with that kind of stuff, and the issue is that when we mess up or think we’ve messed up, which is more common than actually messing up, like an overshare, then we get scared to do it again, and understandably which is uncomfortable. Vulnerability in its core is the willingness to be open to injury of some kind.

Pete Mockaitis
Right. Literally, vulneo, Latin, to wound. You’re right. And, in a way, boy, this is really a skill and you kind of got to slow it down at first, like, “Okay, okay. Oh, Jon is opening up a vulnerability loop here.” And so, sometimes, boy, I can overthink it so, let’s hear some best-practice responses. I guess it’s something along the lines of validation, like, “Yeah, man, it’s freaking tough. It takes hours and hours and hours, and then you feel like you got to deliver for an audience, like, “Where is my next episode?” and you don’t want to disappoint them, and so you feel that pressure. And then that pressure can get you all the more tired and overwhelmed. Okay, so that’s where like connecting to the emotion.

Jon Levy
That’s one possible sign. So, the other is, “Wow, thank you so much for noticing that. Most people just see the success and think it comes easy. And, I’ll be honest, I’ve clocked in sleepless nights trying to figure out how to make it better, and I really appreciate that you noticed.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good.

Jon Levy
So, there isn’t a one way to do it. I think the more important is to acknowledge it and give like a real answer or response. Here’s another kind of fun thing about trust that most people are unaware of. When you say, like, “Oh, what’s the most important aspect of a relationship.” Everybody always says trust.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right.

Jon Levy
“Great. What is trust made out of?” And when you ask that question, people are like, “Like, being vulnerable? I don’t know.” And I didn’t know either until I researched this book. It turns out that trust is essentially made of, most researchers agree, three things, some say four. I like the three model. And it would be competence, your ability to do something; honesty or integrity, your truthfulness; and the third is benevolence.

Now, here’s what’s interesting. Not all of the three pillars are equally weighted or important. So, for example, let’s say you have an episode and it bombs. Do your listeners go, “Oh, I can’t trust him to deliver anymore,” or do they seem like, “Oh, that one was just okay, whatever, and he’ll be back to normal. He probably got his second COVID shot and had an off day”?

So, you can see that you can breach competence and it’s not a big deal. But if you were to breach honesty, like somebody lied to you, you would probably doubt everything that they say moving forward, but there’s kind of like this funny loophole. So, let’s say the two of us were walking down the street and it’s like a year from now and we can congregate in large groups at this point. And as we’re walking, I say, “Hey, Pete, do you mind if we stopped by a friend’s house? I need to pick something up.” And you’re like, “Yeah, sure.”

When we walk in, 40 of your closest friends jumped out and screamed, “Surprise!” Now, it would be super strange if you turned to me and go, “Jon, you just lied to me. We can’t be friends anymore.” Like, I clearly breached honesty, I did not tell the truth, but you were okay with it because I did for benevolent reasons.

Now, if you’ve found out that your doctor was getting kickbacks for giving you prescriptions, that’s a lack of benevolence. You’d be like, “That’s really messed up. I need a new doctor.” So, we can see that we value benevolence above honesty, and honesty above competence. And here’s what’s really interesting when I was doing all this research, I discovered that, apparently, and I’m very clearly not a Navy Seal as you can tell just by looking at me, that when the Navy Seals are reviewing potential candidates, apparently, they ranked them on their skill, their competence, and their team orientation, their kind of benevolence.

And if you scored very high on competence but very low on benevolence, or team orientation, then you’re a terrible candidate because it means that you’ll be very arrogant. But if you are very team-oriented and less skilled, they’d much rather have you because you can always upskill a person, you can train them, but what’s really hard is teaching somebody to be benevolent.

And so, I think when the important thing, and you see this to some degree with these vulnerability loops, is that human beings tend to trust when they feel that somebody has their best interest at heart and when they’re being honest, and competence can increase over time. And if you look at misinformation right now, and I know this is kind of a random side topic, but a lot of the misinformation that’s believed seems to be about, like, very wealthy elite people. And my hunch is that it becomes so believable because, although whoever is very competent at doing things, my hunch is the people that believed these things, like they’re trying to microchip us or whatever it is, don’t necessarily feel like that they’re benevolent.

And so, I think that that’s a lot of the issues that we’re facing, is that when the narrative around our relationships are non-benevolent, it’s really hard to trust. In competence, we can kind of get over.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, yeah. You know, that’s interesting because I remember when I fired somebody, there was some incompetence going on for a while and I was like, “Okay, we got to work on it. We got to work on it.” And then I remember there was some hourly reporting going on, and in a conversation I had with her about what seemed like over-hour reporting, she over-reported the hours she spent having that conversation with me.

Jon Levy
Oh, my God, that’s amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
I was like, “You could see the timestamp on the Skype and we’re talking about the thing right now.” It’s just sort of like, “I just don’t have any hope that this can be turned around. I guess we’re done here, you know.”

Jon Levy
Oh, my God, that’s so awkward. Oh, but I think that that’s a perfect example of hourly reporting is a vulnerability loop, right? You are literally saying, “I trust that you are going to be respectful of my business, my work, my livelihood, my ability to support my family, and I’m going to trust you to accurately assess your work.”

And what’s interesting about this one is that it’s not up to debate. You either, like an hour is a length of time that you can measure. Like, sure, maybe you got up to go to the bathroom, whatever, like you’re allowed bathroom breaks so I’m not like measuring that. But she breached that vulnerability loop, like trust was fundamentally reduced to the point that it’s not acceptable to keep working together.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, right. So, I mean, that just rings true in terms of benevolence trumping honesty, trumping competence, because competence, you know, I was being lenient for a good while there. So, insightful stuff, Jon. Well, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Jon Levy
This has been super interesting exploring the idea and I loved that you brought up an example. And the book is, like I mentioned, super fun. It explores how human connection, trust, and belonging are really the greatest predictors and kind of breaks down the signs and stories of how to bring it to life.

And I think one of the interesting things is that we did a deep dive into how to actually accomplish it digitally because, right now, teams are really having a tough time at distance, maintaining culture, of feeling of belonging, and so that was super interesting on how to actually accomplish it.

Pete Mockaitis
Great. All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Jon Levy
“If you wish to improve, be willing to be thought as stupid and foolish.” Epictetus. So, I cannot count the number of times I felt like an idiot. I’ve embarrassed myself more times than I can count. I have opened more vulnerability loops that were never closed. I have put myself out there, leaned in for the kiss in my early days, before I was married, and was rejected. Like, you put yourself out there like some romantic trope and then you’re like, “Oh, no, we’re best as friends.”

So, the fact is, that human beings function in like an anti-fragile process, meaning, “I dropped a glass, it breaks. It’s fragile.” But human beings are anti-fragile, which means that when we apply pressure to ourselves, we get stronger. We lift weights, we get stronger. We try and learn to interact socially, it’s embarrassing at times but we get stronger. And so, I love that quote by Epictetus.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite study?

Jon Levy
There’s two that are kind of fun. One is by Gilbert. I think he’s at Harvard. He’s kind of like the leading happiness researcher. And what he did was he had people take a, I think it was a series of Monet prints, I think it’s like six of them or 20 of them, whichever number it was. And he said, “Oh, please organize these from most appealing to least appealing.” And then he, essentially said, “Oh, I have number three and number four. You can pick one of them to take home with you.”

A week later, they came back and they had them reorganized, the print order, or put it in order again from most to least, and number three, which is what most of them took home, became number two. And number four became number five. So, essentially, making the decision or commitment actually changed people’s preferences.

Now, people argued, “Oh, that’s because they have the print and they remember it.” So, he repeated the experiment in one of these centers for people who can’t form new memories, like 50 First Dates or Memento. And so, he comes in, does the experiment, walks out of the room, walks back in, the person doesn’t remember them anymore, doesn’t remember the experiment, and then has them order the pictures again. And somehow number three becomes number two, and number four becomes number five.

That means that our decisions and our preferences can actually be rewired based on our actions independent of our memory, which means that our preferences are malleable and it’s kind of silly because we view ourselves as the person who likes this drink, and likes this activity. But maybe if we just made a slightly different decision one time, we could learn to like anything. And I think that that’s totally wild.

Another study I kind of like is called the Pratfall Effect. So, for the listeners, you know how like in romcoms, people love the hapless fool that falls over themselves, like one we want to cheer for? A study was done that looked at people going into job interviews and had some people spill a bit of coffee on themselves, and it turns out that they were rated as better and more preferable because they were human. It’s kind of like that vulnerability loop that I was talking about.

So, it turns out that being a little silly, or falling on yourself a bit, or having these moments that humanize us, actually get people to like us more. So, the things that you’re probably embarrassed about are probably working in your favor.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Jon Levy
So, my name is Jon Levy, and I’m pretty easy to find on all the social platforms. I’m jonlevytlb across Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Clubhouse, if that’s still a thing. Who knows? It could be gone in a week or whenever. And my website is JonLevyTLB.com, and the book is called You’re Invited: The Art and Science of Cultivating Influence. So, feel free to reach out. There’s also a bunch of games on my website for people who want to connect better digitally, and they’re a ton of fun.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Jon Levy
Yes. So, people tend to be most engaged when they’re doing something just outside their skillset, like that point of slight discomfort. So, my encouragement is for you to look at the different aspects of your job and ask yourself “What would make you just slightly uncomfortable? What would be exciting for you to try and do?” Maybe that’s go to your boss and say, “Hey, I would like to do a presentation in front of the team.”

Even if it’s not a necessary presentation, just building up that skill because it’s exciting for you is super beneficial. And having like a playground to do it in and that’s safe is essential. And so, whatever that area that makes you a little bit nervous and excited, find that and go and pursue it just so you can develop better skills.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Jon, this has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun in all the ways you’re cultivating influence.

Jon Levy
Thank you. And this is an absolute blast. Thanks for having me on and for sharing your stories with me. It’s a pleasure.

661: How to Connect Meaningfully with Susan McPherson

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Susan McPherson shares her surefire method for building better connections.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The winning strategy to building connections
  2. Better alternatives to small talk
  3. How to maintain connections efficiently

About Susan

Susan McPherson is a serial connector, seasoned communicator and founder and CEO of McPherson Strategies, a communications consultancy focused on the intersection of brands and social impact. She is the author of The Lost Art of Connecting: The Gather, Ask, Do Method for Building Meaningful Relationships. Susan has 25+ years of experience in marketing, public relations, and sustainability communications, speaking regularly at industry conferences, and contributing to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Forbes. 

She has appeared on NPR, CNN, USA Today, The New Yorker, New York Magazine and the Los Angeles Times. Susan is a Vital Voices global corporate ambassador and has received numerous accolades for her voice on social media platforms from Fortune Magazine, Fast Company and Elle Magazine. She resides in Brooklyn.

Resources mentioned in the show:

Thank you, sponsors!

Susan McPherson Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Susan thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Susan McPherson
I’m very happy to be here, Pete. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to dig into your wisdom about the lost art of connecting. And I understand you have made a fun connection. You’re pals with Kevin Bacon. How did that come to be? And what’s it like to be buddies with a famous person?

Susan McPherson
Well, first of all, I wouldn’t go so far as say buddies.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Susan McPherson
I don’t want to embellish it. His older sister has been a friend of mine for years and we live in Seattle, and I moved to New York not knowing anyone, and she so graciously introduced me to him, and I spent my first Thanksgiving in New York City at his home with his wonderful wife and kids and extended family.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Kevin Bacon, of all the celebrities you might be connected to for you and what you’re doing, that’s just priceless.

Susan McPherson
Oh, absolutely.

Pete Mockaitis
Six degrees or five degrees of Kevin Bacon.

Susan McPherson
Six degrees, and that means now you’re two degrees.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, you know what, that feels really…I’m having a surge of feeling powerful right now, actually, as you highlight that, so thank you. Well, so tell us, we’re talking about connecting. What would you say is one of the most surprising and fascinating things you’ve discovered about connecting which might be counterintuitive to folks?

Susan McPherson
Well, what has enabled me over the years to be successful is always leading with, “How can I help?” rather than “What can I get?” which is counterintuitive to what we have traditionally thought of when we’ve been networking and meeting others. We tend to go into things, like, “What can I get? What can I learn? Who can I meet?” as opposed to, “What can I give? How can I support? How can I be the one making the introduction for you?” And I have found, by leading with that, it actually has helped me and opened more doors and created a lifelong world of people everywhere.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that sounds great. And so then, let’s talk about the “How can I help?” mindset first and foremost, and I’m thinking also about Keith Ferrazzi. That’s one of his key principles, is generosity there. So, can you share with us just all the kinds of ways that people might need help? And people sometimes don’t really speak up about what they need help with. They’re embarrassed or they’re shy or they open themselves because they haven’t thought through it.

So, how do you think about identifying what people really need? And what are all the different ways that you can help? Because I think sometimes people might say, “Oh, I’m not rich. I’m not powerful. I’m not connected. What do I have to offer?” So, lay it on us, how does one help well?

Susan McPherson
Well, I will tell you just a little bit of about what’s in my book. I lay out a very, very detailed methodology, which I won’t bore all your listeners with in terms of detail but I can certainly give you kind of the high…the 30,000-foot view, and it’s gather, ask, do.

And in the gather section is when you do some meaningful self-reflection to actually determine what it is that you have to offer, what is it that you bring to the table, what is your chief differentiating factors, your secret sauces. And notice I say “sss” because everyone has many. The next is the ask.

And, yes, there is always a time and a place for you to ask for what you need and what you want and what you deserve but, in this case, it is learning the art of asking meaningful questions so you can find out what is important to someone else, what do they need help with.

There’s even a chapter in the book that gives you questions that you can have in your back pocket that actually helps you ask people questions that will lead you to understand what they are hoping and dreaming for.

And, lastly, if you ask the meaningful questions and listen carefully, you can then get to the do, and what you do in the do is actually the place I like to be the most, but that’s when you become helpful, reliable, trustworthy, following through. And I hear your question about, “Well, what about if I’m not a rich heiress or a philanthropist, etc. how do I help?” Well, this goes back to that secret sauce and that chief differentiating factor.

Every single one of us has things to offer one another, and sometimes it might just be an introduction to someone else we know. So, don’t overthink it but it really comes down to asking the right questions and then better understanding what it is that you can be doing to be helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Well, let’s walk through a bit of that gather, ask, and do then.

Susan McPherson
Sure.

Pete Mockaitis
So, when it comes to gather and zeroing in on what it is we have to offer, well, maybe, first, let’s contextualize. It seems like it’s what we have to offer is pretty broad, it’s not just in the work sphere. It’s kind of just like anybody we might bump into. Is that fair to say?

Susan McPherson
Well, my book is a business book, okay, so the context of the book was written very much around how do we do this from a business perspective. But I always joke, “There’s not a work-Susan and a home-Susan,” and I decided about 15 years ago, it was tiring being two people and much easier to be one. And a lot of times, when we are incredibly passionate about the work that we do, it doesn’t feel as much of being work.

So, I have also learned that many of the kind of secret sauces that I bring to the table, literally, cross boundaries of work and home. It doesn’t necessarily fall into. And I run a social impact communications consulting firm, so just the notion of making impact in the world, you could question whether that is work or not work, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, certainly. Okay. Well, so then, thinking about it from a professional world, which can, indeed, be broader than we could contextualizes it at times, what are your pro tips for zeroing in on, “Huh, these are some of my secret sauces”?

Susan McPherson
Sure. Well, it really depends on where you are in your kind of career, and I talk to a lot of 20 somethings that are just out of school and tend to think they don’t have a whole lot to offer, but they may speak multiple languages, they may be very technically mindful. I joke sometimes that a 22-year-old may be able to say two things that would really help me out, and that is TikTok, and things like that that could be very helpful to someone like myself that is in the world of communications. So, it’s a very personal thing but I think all of us have to look internally and think about.

I’m going to ask you, Pete, what are your secret sauces?

Pete Mockaitis
Sure thing. Well, the first thing that comes to mind is just, from the StrengthsFinder report, like Ideation lately. I’ve just been getting so many ideas and putting them into action, and Activator is another one of them, so that’s part of it.

Susan McPherson
That’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess the podcast itself is a thing in terms of, well, a lot of people want to be on it and we candidly reject the vast majority of incoming pitches, so great job, Susan and Nina, your publicist.

Susan McPherson
Well, she’s amazing.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Because most people, frankly, we proactively hunt down based on listener requests these days but sometimes we go, “Ooh, that’s actually spot on so let’s call her.”

Susan McPherson
Oh, I feel special. Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
You are special. So, yeah, those are some of the things. And I think I have a knack for researching something with an intensity or vigilance that can almost seem obsessive but, in so doing, discover things that most people don’t because they don’t go past the first page of Google. And so, sometimes, like I can really vibe with investigative journalists, like, “Yeah, totally. I’m in the same mindset as you many times.”

Susan McPherson
Well, that’s a gift and it’s also a secret sauce. I often say leading with curiosity is such an enormous skill, so right there you’ve just named. But you had to do some deep thinking to think about that, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I did it before we talked in terms of just general self-awareness work. And then when you prompted me, I did take a few seconds of thought, so certainly.

Susan McPherson
I love it.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we dig into those things. And so, in my own instance, I’ve thought about, okay, what are some times I’ve relied and impressed people with, “Wow, that’s really great work,” or I’ve looked at some assessments like the StrengthsFinder to surface some stuff. What are some of the other sources that can serve up the secret sauce?

Susan McPherson
Sure. I’m a big believer in asking your close confidants, your brain trust, the people…your family members, your dog, you name it. But it is a type of thing where you can really gather this information to help you do that self-reflection. I have a funny story back in 2007. I went away with eight girlfriends for a weekend. And the goal that weekend was for each of us to come up with our secret sauce, our elevator speech.

And it was during that weekend that I finally coined the term that I am a serial connector. And I’ll be completely honest, when I said it, I almost peed my pants because it sounded so ridiculous. But it took the group to give me the guts and give me the permission and, also, basically state for the record I was amazing at connecting people.

And then, a few years later when I was introduced to come on and speak on a stage, and they introduced me, and said, “We welcome Susan McPherson, serial connector, seasoned communicator,” again, I almost peed my pants. But now I wrote a book about it. So, the point being is that was deep thinking and deep reflection on my part but I also pulled from the crowd. I actually helped gather data from the people closest to me.

Pete Mockaitis
This is maybe the funniest follow-up I’ve ever asked, when you say pee your pants, do you mean you were terrified or thrilled?

Susan McPherson
Yes.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Susan McPherson
I was embarrassed. Like it sounded ridiculous. It sounded just, “No one’s going to believe that.”

Pete Mockaitis
“That’s it. I nailed it.” And that’s not what you meant. You meant, “Oh, geez, that seems corny or outrageous.”

Susan McPherson
Yes, it seemed preposterous is probably the word.

Pete Mockaitis
And that could be an insight right there in terms of if you’re feeling some internal resistance or skepticism when you are connected with people that you’re bouncing these things off of, you could get the courage to say, “No, that’s for real,” and own it and work it.

Susan McPherson
Exactly. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Cool. Well, let’s talk about the asking. How do we ask? Or are there some particular key questions or tips to be better listeners and get to the heart of things?

Susan McPherson
Well, sure, and they’re both two separate chapters in the book. Actually, there’s one chapter that has, literally, 11 questions that you can carry in your back pocket that will help you ask more meaningful questions.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, please share several of these immediately. We have to know.

Susan McPherson
Well, they are certainly not the questions that are going to lead you to yes or no answers, and they’re also not questions about the weather or what people ate for lunch today, but they’re things like, “Pete, it’s been a tough year. It’s been a really challenging year. How are you doing? And is there anything you could be using my help?” Or, “Pete, if you could go anywhere at the end of this pandemic, anywhere on the planet, where would you go and why?” Or, “Pete, if there was a problem you could solve in the next month, and money wasn’t an issue, what would that problem be?”

Pete Mockaitis
Like, a society or social problem?

Susan McPherson
These questions elicit more meaningful responses and help you get a better data set, a more rich answer that is going to help you then lead to, “Oh, how can I be helpful to this person?”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. I think those are excellent questions and I guess I’m thinking about the context in terms of “I have many people I know that I’d be totally fine, just go in there right away.” I’m thinking if you have just met someone three minutes ago, you may not want to go there right away.

Susan McPherson
What about those questions seem…?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I suppose, and it could vary by personality, if, let’s say, I just met, we’re talking, it’s like, “Oh, how do you know Jane?” or, “What brings you to the podcast movement conference, Susan?” whatever. So, we’re like just met and then you said, “Hey, it’s been a tough year with the pandemic. How are you doing?” Like, “Well, Susan, I guess I’m okay. I just met you,” you know.

Susan McPherson
I don’t know. Again, in many, many talks, and I run a communications firm, so I will say that this past year has been the great equalizer. Most people have been challenged by it.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, sure.

Susan McPherson
I mean, that’s quite a generalization. I don’t want to say all people. But, to me, it’s almost like the elephant in the room that if we don’t address it, we’re not being human. And I find that it isn’t such a personal question because obviously, if the person is uncomfortable, they’ll say, “I’m fine.”

Pete Mockaitis
Fair enough. You just lead with that.

Susan McPherson
But most people, yeah, most people…

Pete Mockaitis
We just met, “You know, how are you really doing, Susan?” Like, “Hey, take a hint. You’re not my friend, my spouse, my boss, I just met you and I’m giving you a bit of a buff-off so take that cue.” Well, I think that’s powerful right there in terms of, well, one, maybe we can afford to be a little bit more courageous and vulnerable, just go ahead. And, two, it’s not the biggest deal in the world if someone chooses not to disclose and you could just take that hint and respond accordingly.

Susan McPherson
Yeah. I mean, look, again, every human is different and that’s a good thing. It makes life interesting. But, generally speaking, I have found that this is the time that we don’t have to be superhuman or superwomen or supermen. And when you open yourself up to a little bit more vulnerability, others generally reciprocate in kind. And, therefore, you can have a little bit more meaningful discussion than about the weather. Not everyone. Some people will want to stick with the weather, and you know what, that’s good too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Sure thing. One of my bits, I always just imagine like if you try to small talk someone about the weather and they happen to be like extremely into the weather, they’re like, “How about that dew point, huh? It’s really climbing up there.” Just how that will unfold.

Susan McPherson
You know, it’s funny, I did my junior year abroad in Denmark, and I lived with a Danish family. And my Danish father, this was back in ‘80s, but he would always say that American always have to fill the void so they have to have talking. So, what they will do is talk about the weather. And I have to tell you, over the years, when we started having conference calls, inevitably in every start of every conference call, the de facto conversation would be about the weather, and I would completely start to laugh in the back of my head because it would take me back to Denmark, and I was like, “Oh, my God, he was right.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, “Those silly Americans.” Well, you shared a few great questions. I’d love it if you could give us a few more.

Susan McPherson
Well, I think there’s always this notion, again, because I work in impact, this discussion about “What else can we be doing to be helpful?” I also find anything around travel, anything about where our upbringing, where we came from, can give you a deeper clue as to people and, too,  what their hopes and dreams are. That is kind of the suggestions that I have.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how do we listen all the better so that we are picking up maybe what’s not said and prudently following up with what is said?

Susan McPherson
Well, we are woefully bad at listening, and this year has proven to be extraordinarily challenging. I think about all of us who had been privileged enough to work from home but have had the obligatory Zoom or Microsoft Team meetings while we have our email open, while we have our Twitter applications open, while we have our WhatsApp and our texting, and probably our children and our dogs all running around. Listening can be extraordinarily challenging.

In the book, I showcase Dr. Julian Treasure who has done a number of TED Talks, and I highlight recommend your listeners go and listen.

Pete Mockaitis
We got Julian on the show a couple of times, yeah.

Susan McPherson
Well, there you go. So, I would follow a lot of his advice. But, for me, personally, two things that I do. One, I literally carry a notepad with me now everywhere in virtual rooms, and I take notes when people are talking. I, also, am not so shy as I won’t…if I find myself daydreaming or thinking about what I’m going to cook for dinner as opposed to listening, is I will circle back and say, “Pete, I missed what you said. Can you repeat it?” And that keeps me grounded. That helps me continue to listen.

But, also, writing, taking notes if someone talks, at least for me, is very, very helpful. And then when I follow-up with people, I generally will pull from something that was said in the conversation so that that not only helps me remember, of course, but also reminds the person that I actually did listen to them, that I saw them.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s great. And we had a comedian on the show who sort of talked about callbacks and how, if you had sort of a humorous exchange, referencing that in particular can facilitate that signal of, “Yes, I was listening. And, yes, that was a special happy fun moment we had there, wasn’t it?”

Cool. All right. Well, so then let’s hear about the do. So, we’ve gathered, we’ve asked, and now when it comes to doing, how do we do well?

Susan McPherson
And if we listened after we asked, then we have the follow-up to do. And, typically, the do begins with your follow-up, and I mentioned how when I do follow-up, I do try to mention what I heard or what I saw. And I, typically, will follow-up right away. It’s the type of thing where I know I’m going to get it done. But, again, that notepad that I carry around with me, I will make a note if I can’t do it right away. And I, generally, will respond back something I heard the person say or I will make…potentially, I will suggest that I will make an introduction for that person.

But I want to make sure your listeners know, I’m not sitting here saying, “You have to help every single person in the entire world.” But if your goal is to make a deeper more meaningful connection, this is a way to start the process, and it’s not a one-and-done thing. You’re not going to like follow-up and then, “Ah, done. I don’t have to reach out to them in 10 years.” This is something that, hopefully, if it builds into a reciprocal relationship, will carry through and continue to grow and blossom.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, when you talked about following up, like if there’s not just like a crystal-clear action item or to-do or promise made, can you give us some examples of actual snippets of follow-up text or dialogue?

Susan McPherson
Sure. It can be as simple as, “Pete, it was great chatting with you last night. I so enjoyed our conversation about X, Y, Z, your favorite hummus, or where you’re going on your next trip, or the project you’re working on. I’d love to keep in touch. What would be the best way to keep in touch with you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s simple. Thank you.

Susan McPherson
I mean, let’s not overthink this. But the reason I asked about what is the best way is every person has a different means and mode of the way they want to stay in touch or communicate. And, to me, that is a very respectful way to keep the loop going.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And then let’s talk about maintenance in terms of sort of ongoing? Like, in some ways, it could be intimidating if, well, I don’t know if you have any numbers in mind, but like the frequency of touches and the depth of touches, like it could multiply real quick in terms of, “I’ve met 3,000 people. And if I want to stay in touch, do I need to give them a message every other month?” So, how do you think about the maintenance stuff?

Susan McPherson
Sure. Well, again, I want to delineate between what I talk about versus networking. For me, it’s not a numbers game. It is very much intentional in keeping in touch based on, if we think back to the gather phase, “What is the community we want to build to help us meet our own goals?” This isn’t just about staying in touch for the sake of staying touch, although that is great, too. I’m not anti that.

So, to me, to sit here and put out numbers would be not what I’m practicing. But I also believe that because this isn’t transactional, a relationship doesn’t start and stop. A relationship ebbs and flows. Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Susan McPherson
So, again, it’s not realistic to think you’re going to stay in touch with everybody every day but I fervently believe that you stay in touch with people not when you need something, so that when you do need something, it’s so much easier to ask.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Okay. That’s good. That’s good. And I hear you, in terms of ebbs and flows, I’m thinking about when we moved into this building, like the realtor, we talked to him all the time, and now we talk to him rarely, but occasionally. And he’s awesome and I like being in touch with him, likewise, with the contractor. And so, the ebbs and flows does sound natural, and it may well be like three years of a gap between times, but if I see something that makes me think of them, go for it and that’s cool.

Susan McPherson
Absolutely. And that’s a gift. That’s a gift. And the thing is how often have you been walking down the street and somebody pops in your brain? And, generally speaking, you do, you park it. I, now, whenever that happens, I use my little voice memo on my handheld, which is generally with me, and I make a note so that I will actually then go back, or maybe while I’m walking, and just text using the voice memo and say, “Hey, Carolyn, you popped in my brain. It’s been a while. I just want to say hello and find out how you’re doing.” Simple as that.

And I must do those three to five times a day, and it’s literally when people pop in my brain. Again, no ask, no I’m not expecting anything in return, although, it’s lovely if people respond back, but it is my own way of being, like, “Hey, I’m still here,” but also spreading a little joy in the world.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, and you’re right, and it does feel good in terms of, yeah, as I imagine myself on the receiving end of that, like even if I have…even if that person doesn’t have a really special place in my heart, they’re just like, “Okay, I randomly met you at a whatever, a conference four years ago, and we had a couple laughs, but whatever.” So, just for example, like I would still feel pretty good to get that text and like, “Oh,” and I might say, you know, I’m probably not going to follow up and say, “Oh, yes, absolutely. So good to hear from you. Let’s find some time where we can really catch up at length.” I probably won’t do that. For some people, I certainly would. But even in the worst case that feels good. So, yeah, do more of that. Absolutely. That’s great.

Susan McPherson
Well, a lot of people say to me, “How do you have time? How do you find time to keep in touch in this and that?” And I have to be honest with you, Pete, the more people in my life, the more efficient I get because it means there’s more people I can tap into when somebody needs an expert in climate change, coral restoration, animal physiology. Like, you will know someone or you will know someone who knows someone.

Pete Mockaitis
You got a toxicologist for me, Susan?

Susan McPherson
I can find you one.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Good to know. Good to know. Well, that’s great. Thank you. Well, tell me, any final pro tips or things that you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Susan McPherson
Sure. Well, I just think leading with how can we be helpful is a tremendous way to pivot as we move through our professional careers whether we are with peers, whether we’re with the people who are hiring us or promoting us, whether we are raising money for our startup. Leading with that will only come back to help you.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now, could you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Susan McPherson
I have to say “We’re only as blind as we want to be,” and I say that quote because I have found leading a life of deep curiosity has been extraordinarily helpful to me and never questioning whether somebody is worth my time. Does that make sense?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, great.

Susan McPherson
Because what I have learned from people, and maybe the initial impression was, “Wait, this person can’t ‘help’ me with my career, they can’t help me get this or that,” but I have always surprised myself that when I kind of disabled the blinders, it enabled me to learn something not only about that person but to learn more about myself.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Susan McPherson
It would have to be Caste by Isabel Wilkerson that I just read earlier this year. Powerful, powerful. Highly, highly recommended just in terms of grounding and also what is basically systemic racism in this country. And I know I’m going deep but I have found that to be just extraordinary.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And how about a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Susan McPherson
Email and my notepad. Honestly, my notepad. But I don’t know what I would do without email.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite habit?

Susan McPherson
Texting people I love and asking how they’re doing, and blowing bubbles in my dog’s belly.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, fun. And is there a particular nugget you share that really connects and resonates with folks; they quote it back to you frequently?

Susan McPherson
I know I’m sounding redundant and repetitive, it’s literally, “How can I be of help to you?”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Susan McPherson
And folks joke about that all the time.

Pete Mockaitis
And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Susan McPherson
Well, my company’s website McPherson Strategies or anywhere online susamcp1, you can find me on the social webs, and you can obviously email me at susan@mcpstrategies.com.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Susan McPherson
I would make sure you listen twice as much as you speak, that is why we have two ears. And I would always, always, always leave with how you can be helpful to others and, believe me, the world will come back and help you.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Susan, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun in all the ways you’re connecting.

Susan McPherson
Thank you, Pete.

645: How to Make a Bigger Impact by Connecting First with Dr. Melanie Katzman

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Melanie Katzman shares strategies for establishing a great connection to facilitate great work.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The trick to a great first impression
  2.  The one question to gain better perspective
  3. The listening hack that makes all the difference 

About Melanie

Dr. Melanie Katzman is a business psychologist and coach to the world’s top public and private companies. Her latest book, Connect First: 52 Simple Ways to Ignite Success, Meaning, and Joy at Work, is a #1 WSJ bestseller. 

She has delivered workshops and keynotes to organizations worldwide for three decades. During COVID-19, she is an especially sought-after virtual speaker, giving groups the tools for coping with newfound daily stressors, teaching immediately actionable techniques that have meaningful and enduring results. 

Melanie has been featured in the financial and popular media, and has appeared on numerous podcasts and television outlets. 

Resources mentioned in the show:

Thank you, sponsors!

  • Blinkist: Read or listen to summarized wisdom from thousands of nonfiction books! Free trial available at blinkist.com/awesome

Dr. Melanie Katzman Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Melanie, welcome to the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Melanie Katzman
Thanks so much for having me, Pete. I’m excited to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m excited to talk about your wisdom and Connect First. Great title. My hats off to you.

Melanie Katzman
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Can we kick it off by hearing about maybe the most surprising and fascinating discovery you’ve made in the process of putting together the book Connect First?

Melanie Katzman
Sure. So, Pete, I’m a clinical psychologist with decades of experience seeing people individually as a therapist. At the same time, I’ve been a corporate consultant to both startups as well as large multinationals. And one of the things that I found is that no matter where I was working, no matter who I was working with, whether it be in America or other parts of the world, people at their core, are all wired the same.

We all want to belong. We want to be recognized. We want information. We crave praise. We want to be appreciated. And so, in creating Connect First, what I was able to do was pull from the experiences I have as both a therapist, as a consultant, and put that all together in a way that I hope communicates to everybody that we need to connect first through our common humanity.

And the surprise, the delight in the book and in the book tour, has been that people really resonate with that message. It just makes sense. It is what people experience. And particularly during a pandemic, it’s what people crave, that human connection. So, it’s a delightful surprise, it wasn’t a full surprise because it’s exactly why I wrote the book.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, we talk about connecting first, maybe what’s the alternative? What do people do first if not connect that’s problematic?

Melanie Katzman
So, many people at work are so focused on being transactional, getting the job done, that they forget that the thing that you have to do first is to establish a relationship with people, you need to slow down to speed up. If you don’t develop trust, then you can’t actually ask people to push, to prod, to innovate, to take chances, to deal with conflict. And, too often, people show up at the office and just feel like, “If someone is being paid, they need to do it,” and, “If I ask, and I’m the boss, it should happen,” versus, “I need to actually demonstrate and establish respect and trust.”

Similarly, people will say, “Oh, we have an inclusion program.” And, somehow, because we have a program or a poster that that will somehow translate into people really feeling as if they have a seat at the table. And as we know, it’s a lot more complicated than that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, boy, the word should there really perked my ears up in terms of it’s sort of like we have these expectations or assumptions about how the world ought to operate, and if yours is that people should do awesome, innovative, stretched, extraordinary work because they’re getting a paycheck, we’re saying that worldview is not accurate to reality.

Melanie Katzman
I just think that what we know, what science shows us and I think many of our experiences demonstrate is that people do better work when they’re internally, intrinsically motivated, that money makes a difference to a point but, actually, to get passion, well, we talk about passion. We want passionate purpose-driven people on our team.

Well, passion is hot. It’s not cognitive. I can think I want to do a good job but I’m going to be really driven and passionate about doing a job because I care. That caring comes from an emotional connection to the work and to the people I’m working with, and that requires the human connection.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, I think people ask me, “So, Pete, how do you be awesome at your job?” just like at a party or something. I like, “Boy, 600 interviews, how do I distill it?”

Melanie Katzman
How do you distill it? What do you say?

Pete Mockaitis
I’m still figuring out, it’s like, “Okay, can I give you five things? One of them is caring.”

Melanie Katzman
Right. Like, “We could just say be a human.” I mean, that sounds ridiculous but people show up at work and they feel like they should be an automatron, and they should just churn it out versus “I’m really going to be thoughtful about how I approach my requests, how I deliver my work, the words I choose, and who I choose to say them to and with.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Okay. Well, so then you described 52 separate actions in your book, which is a bundle – I love it – and that’s organized into seven main themes. Could maybe give us the rundown, 30 seconds to a minute, on each of the seven themes? What are they?

Melanie Katzman
Sure. And they’re actually built on each other. So, when I first decided to write this book, people are like, “Wait. So, this is like a Ms. Manners for business?” I’m like, “No, no, no, no. We’ll start with the basics.” So, the beginning of the book is all about establishing trust. Just getting the basics right, like saying “Please,” and, “Thank you,” making eye contact. Like, the first chapter in the book is smiling. Like, “I smile at you, you smile back.” That’s not hard work.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s my favorite.

Melanie Katzman
Right? Even behind your big microphone, I can see you’re smiling, and it’s actually one of the problems we have now with masks. You can’t see the smile. But a smile is really, you know, it just gets us going as people. So, the first chapter is smiling. And then I go on to review other basics, all the things we know we should do but we forget to do, right? That’s the thanks-you-s, the please-s.

Then, from there, it’s “Use your senses.” See everybody, not just the people who you think who are important. Not the people who you think have influence or were the buddies, the ones who look like you, you’re comfortable with. See truly everybody. Listen. Don’t just try to hear, to reload, so that you can make your point louder and more definitively, but actually listen. Eat with other people. Breaking bread, old-time ritual of really a way of getting to know someone.

So, I talk about the importance of using your senses – seeing, hearing, eating, really quieting yourself and your internal dialogue to know what’s happening around you. Then be popular. And I use that kind of purposely, provocatively. Be the person people want to be with. So, come bearing conversational gifts, help the people that you’re with. Be smarter because they’ve been with you and because you’re willing to share.

And then we want to clear conflict. And how do you clear conflicts? It’s really having the confidence to say no to certain things, to say yes to others, to give feedback as a gift, to really be unafraid in entering some of those scary conversations. And then it’s really about being inclusive, in casting a wide net. And I even have chapters about how to be a good host, which people say, “That’s funny. This is a job. People are coming into my office.” I’m like, “No, no, no, you need to be responsible for the curation, for the comfort you create.”

And then we want to face the future unafraid. And that’s really if you have established respect, if you are seeing beyond your immediate box, if you are unafraid in tackling difficult conversations, then you can really collaborate with multiple stakeholders, bringing lots of voices into the room, ask questions that don’t have answers and be unafraid of what bubbles up.

And so, I really then talk to people about honoring history at the same time that you’re looking towards the future, embracing aging, embracing difference, and, ultimately, the book ends with a dream. Dream big. So, we start with a smile, we end with a dream. Start with the basics and then end with all of the ways in which you can apply these 52 suggestions so that you can build a different world, build a different culture at your company, and feel better at your job, which is why I dared to have joy in the title, because a lot of people are like, “Joy at work? That’s an oxymoron.” I’m like, “Nope, you get the positive results when you have joyful people pursuing meaningful work. And that creates a success.”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, beautiful. Thank you. Okay. So, we have seven themes, and they’re sort of stair-stepping up, starting with establish respect, engage the senses, become popular, grow the loyalty, resolve conflicts, fight fear, have a big impact, we start with a smile, we end with a dream. Awesome.

So, now, within these seven themes, we got 52 actions, which is a lot of actions. So, we love the 80/20 principle here on How to be Awesome at Your Job. So, could you zero in on a couple, I don’t know, two, three, five, that just have just the disproportionate impact on making great connections? Maybe they’re high impact, they’re easy to do, they’re often overlooked. What are sort of the like the bullseye actions that make all the difference?

Melanie Katzman
And, by the way, you raised the fact that it’s 52, and that can seem really daunting, but one of the things I encourage people to do when they get the book is to read it in a way that suits you. It’s written with for the attention-deprived executive or worker so that you can dip in, get the information you need for the moment that you’re in.

So, if you’re in the middle of a conflict, you’re going to be, “What do I need to do? Well, this person seems like someone I can’t relate to. Let me pull these few chapters.” You can kind of go in and get what you need when you need it. But, on the other hand, you could also read the book as a yearlong exercise in personal development so that you can do a chapter a week.

Now, in terms of a couple of my favorites, like one of my absolute favorites is “Got it.” And those are two words that change the whole demeanor of work. So, I’m sure you’ve been in this situation, many of my clients have been, I have been, where you shoot off an email request and you look, you glance, “Where did it go? I asked for some information. I need it to be able to enact whatever transaction I’m doing, the deal I’m trying to close, the work I’m trying to complete, and I don’t know whether someone is working on it, I’ve been spammed, I’m not important.”

And whether you are the boss or you are the underling, when somebody doesn’t respond to your request, you don’t know how to take the next step. And we all want to manage our own time, but if you don’t know when the response is coming, or if it’s coming, then you can’t deal with your own timing, which is an incredible empowerment, and it’s this experience of disrespect.

So, I encourage people to say, “Got it.” And for extra credit, “Got it. Your answer is coming in 10 minutes, or it’s going to take me some time to pull the numbers together. I’ll get back to you tonight,” or, “Got it. I’m working on X. Should I re-prioritize to work on Y because this is an important request?” So, I encourage people to use those two words.

Pete Mockaitis
Or even “Got it. I’m afraid I’m not going to be the person who can help you with this.”

Melanie Katzman
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
So, that still helps them with their timelines and what to do next.

Melanie Katzman
Advance the ball, right? Say, “Got it,” so then you know. The other really super simple, call people by their name. Like, it is a neural hack. People snap to attention when they hear their name, and too often we don’t call people by their name, or working in diverse organizations, people make up a name that’s easy for them to remember or pronounce.

Pete Mockaitis
Champ. Sport.

Melanie Katzman
Right. And it’s like it happens all the time, but it’s so easy. If I address you by your name, you feel like we already have a connection. If I can’t remember your name, but I remember your face, I can say, “Hey, Pete, I remember like a few years ago…” “Hey, guy, I don’t remember your name but we had such a good conversation. Remember we were standing at the coffee area at the conference, looking at X…” And then you go, “Okay. She cares enough, remember your name.” So, there’s all sorts of tricks to that, to like asking people the history of their name. It’s a quick way to understand someone’s background. So, it sounds simple, but like say, “Got it,” call people by their name.

Moving along the line. Another thing I would say is ask a beautiful question. Come prepared to ask a great question. It honors the person. So, when you do interviews for potential candidates, if someone asked a question that could be answered on the website, what have you learned? You’ve learned that they’re lazy, right? If somebody comes and they have already done the research to ask you a question that reflects what they and how they think, they are going to impress you and then you can also answer them in a way that can engage them.

And so, a lot of different suggestions within the book have to do with bringing what I call conversational gifts. Doing your research so that you’re showing up ready to have a good conversation. And preparing a good question doesn’t take a lot of time but does make a huge difference.

Pete Mockaitis
So a beautiful question, so how that gets formulated, one is that you’ve done your homework and your research as opposed to a lazy question that’s readily available in press releases or website.

Melanie Katzman
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
Another is that you’ve done some real good thinking. Any more ingredients or steps or pro-tips for formulating a beautiful question or maybe some examples?

Melanie Katzman
So, I will work with people who are high potentials who are being coached at their company’s request by me, and that’s one set of engagements I have. The other is people will be coming to me when they’re wanting to transition to another role, or they have lost their job and they’re looking to repackage themselves to reenter the workforce.

And so, what I will say to people, I say, “If you’re going for the classic informational interview, so you’ve got a foot in the door, so do the research on who you’re meeting with and what their place is in the market. What are the questions they might be asking themselves and what is information that you have that connects the dots in ways that they may not have thought about before?”

So, for example, I’m going for an interview at a production company, and they make educational films about climate change. So, I’m going to show up and I can either say, “So, tell me who are your founders? Or, are you tackling this topic or that topic?” or I might want to say, “Hey, I’ve noticed that there’s a tremendous increase and demand for school-age programming but there’s an absence of quality product out there.”

“For example, so and so is doing such and such, so and so is doing such and such, but actually your sweet spot seems to be the creation of these kinds of products and you haven’t looked at the school market yet. What would you think about doing that? You could tackle this kind of climate question in this kind of way, educate people, fulfill your mission but also answer an area in the market that’s underserved.”

So, you’re coming in and you’ve done some strategic thinking, you’ve analyzed the marketplace, you’ve looked at what they provide, and you’re offering an opinion. Now, some people will say to me, “I should be paid before I offer up that perspective,” and I would say, “You want to get a job that you’re going to be paid well? Demonstrate that you’re worth it, come and be generous in your thinking and in your willingness to share your thinking.”

Pete Mockaitis
And if you already have the job, I mean, yeah, you’re just there all the time with regard to the meetings and having researched some things and noticed some things that maybe other people haven’t. Well, I just love that so much because I think about being on the receiving end of those questions in terms of, “I’ve actually never heard that organization you’re citing. I wasn’t aware of that trend that you’re pointing out.”

Melanie Katzman
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
“You seem brilliant and I want you close by so I don’t overlook something really important.”

Melanie Katzman
But that’s exactly it. You can’t go wrong if you help people be smarter. And the other part of that is when you’re networking, both internally networking or externally, because often times when people are coming up for promotion, or want to be coming up for a promotion, it’s important to do some victory laps around the organization, talk to people, have them get to know you.

I think some of the great questions to ask are you go to someone who you admire in the organization, and say, “How do you get your information? What are the things that you read? On your commute, how are you spending your time getting information?” everyone likes to talk about themselves, and most people like to stop and think about, “Yeah, how do I do that?” And if I want to have the strategic capability of someone who’s very senior in my organization, I want to know what they’re inputting into their internal computer so I’m getting access to some of that good data.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s so good. And what’s so funny is there’s often blogs that you may have never even heard of that really have so much good stuff. I think there’s one about law, like Above the Law, or one about accounting that’s kind of edgy, and it’s sort of like, “I’ve never heard of that.” And I think maybe, I don’t know, a quarter or so of the people in the field may have, or it’s like, “Oh, yeah, I’ve heard about that. But is that really worth looking at?” It’s like, “Oh, this super smart person is there all the time.” “So, apparently it is. Now, I know.” And that’s available right there, just get that curation step.

Melanie Katzman
Absolutely. What I do, non-pandemic times, one of the things I do was I lead leadership retreats in different parts of the world where I bring people together from very different backgrounds and very different nationalities and sectors to understand particular issues of the moment, and we will invariably end up in traffic because it’s just part of the job. And one of the things that we’ll do is just, I’ll say, “Hey, what’s the top five things that are coming up in each of your Twitter feeds? And where is it coming from?”

And it’s fascinating. You have people there that are Chinese entrepreneurs, and French politicians, and Brazilian businessmen and women, and a tech exec from California, and what they’re listening to or reading is so profoundly different, And at a time that we know that we can end up in our own reverberating echo chambers, understanding what different people are accessing is so informative. So, it’s just a really fun great question.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that is beautiful. And I want to hit a particular action you highlight which is to listen to inspire. How do I do that?

Melanie Katzman
Well, one of the first things is, as I was saying earlier on, like, to really listen. So, too often I think we listen to reload, “So, I go with what I want to tell you. So, I’m just busy formulating in my head my response,” versus, “I’m listening to you to understand what you want me to really hear.” And I think a mistaken impression often is that we need to demonstrate empathy, that I’m listening to someone and I’m a good listener, I’m having an empathetic response, so I’m searching my autobiographical library for something I can say to show, Pete, that I can relate.

While I’m doing that, I’m not listening to what Pete is really saying. So, rather than focusing on me and what I’m going to do when you stop talking, I need to quiet down inside and actually listen to what you’re saying, show that I’m paying attention. And any kind of visual contact, I think the challenge is to keep your mouth closed and to show interest without using your words. And it’s an exercise I do with people when I am running programs because it’s super hard to listen without speaking and, yet, it’s very impactful when someone listens to you without speaking. It brings you in by their head nods, by their eye contact, by their smiles, by their hand motions.

And an interesting point from my experience has been that when I do encourage teams to have conversations where someone is speaking and nobody’s interrupting for over five minutes. Imagine, over five minutes, it seems like it’s endless. The first minute, people are talking, it feels really good to be listened to. The second minute, the other person is just listening and shaking their head but not saying anything. It feels awkward. The third minute, someone starts, the person who’s speaking, speaks more and adds more detail. The fourth minute might go a little awkward. By the fifth minute, they have revealed something they were never planning on revealing.

And so, five minutes of uninterrupted attention will generally get a much deeper fuller expression of what’s going on, and it’s a little investment for a huge impact. So, to listen to inspire, shut up. Shut up inside and shut up outside. Just listen and absorb and demonstrate your engagement.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, Melanie, tell me, anything else you really want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Melanie Katzman
Okay. I think one thing I just want to mention is that we are having this interview during a pandemic, and as a psychologist working in business, I am so struck by the difficulties that people are having and that we need to take this seriously. Like, there’s a pandemic right now that’s related to a virus but there is a tsunami of mental health crises that is just going to pound us if we don’t take measures now to help people set clear boundaries between work and home, between the beginning and the end of the day. We need to listen carefully to the distress signals that people are sending up, some are much more subtly than others.

A lot of my work these days has been in delivering webinars for companies in lieu of the in-person talks and keynotes I usually do, helping provide a safe place for people to talk about the ways in which they can communicate better when they’re working from home, and ways that they can establish the human personal connection at work in the absence of physical interactions. So, I think we are physically-distanced and psychologically and socially desperate for connection. And companies need to work hard to answer that need.

And so, my big message is, to whoever is listening, really stop, listen deeply, pay attention, and put some effort into helping these connections unfold because if you don’t, I think you’re really going to end up with a very exhausted and debilitated workforce.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Thank you. And now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Melanie Katzman
I think one of my favorite quotes, maybe it’s part of the reason why I wrote a book has lots of steps, and it’s a Chinese philosophical quote, “A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you.

Melanie Katzman
You got to start moving to make things happen and it’ll just be a little step.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Melanie Katzman
So, I love to look at neurobiology as a way of inspiring us in the office and in the workplace. And one of the studies I think is really important is it’s an fMRI study that shows you how your body heats up in reaction to different emotions. And there’s research that shows us that love and anger physiologically look very much the same. We kind of light up red if you look at these fMRIs.

And it’s important because they are emotions of approach. So, I don’t know if I want to hug you or I want to belt you, but either way I’m having a lot of reaction to you. And I think in the workplace, we often forget that when someone is really worked up about something and they seem pissed off and angry and even difficult, it may be because the person cares so deeply.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really true.

Melanie Katzman
So, I love that piece of data because it really affirms what I see. The problem child that I’m called in to coach is often the person who’s just caring so much.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so true. Like, I don’t get upset about things I don’t care about, and it happens in work frequently. And it’s easier if I just don’t care.

Melanie Katzman
Exactly. But sometimes I have to coach people, “Don’t care so much,” right? And so, I just think it’s an important factor for us to consider that the person who cares so much may be sometimes the individual on your team who can seem the most difficult and the most challenging, so we want to value that passion and help that passionate individual channel that energy into the most effective way.

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. How about a favorite book?

Melanie Katzman
There’s a classic called Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, which is actually the new book was written in 1970 something. But I really like it because it’s about, “How do we change the things that we can change, control the things we can control, and learn how to focus on those particularly at times when we’re feeling out of control, depressed, or helpless?”

And what we find is, you know, my favorite psychologist or consultant joke is, how many consultants does it take to change a lightbulb?”

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I think I know this one. Oh, I know a therapist. I don’t know about consultants.

Melanie Katzman
I’m a therapist and a consultant so I go between the two. So, which is the answer?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m not going to give the punchline. Take it away, Melanie. Take it away.

Melanie Katzman
Oh, you’re not? Okay. The lightbulb has to want to change itself, right? And so, ultimately, the power is with us. We need to be able to change ourselves. And sometimes it’s changing our actions, sometimes it’s changing the way we think. And so, my answer to your question, given the times we’re living in, is that there are some things that we can change and there are some things we can’t, but to be able to survive and thrive during this period, we need to change the way we think or perceive or assess things in the moment.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how about a favorite tool?

Melanie Katzman
My paper and pencil. I have all sorts of electronics that help facilitate my work but I find that having a daily list that I write down helps me track and prioritize what I’m going to do, and it feels great crossing it off versus just hitting delete. So, I like a paper and pencil.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And, tell me, is there a particular nugget you share that you’re known for, people quote it back to you frequently or Kindle book highlighted all the time?

Melanie Katzman
Well, I think, oftentimes, it has to do with a lot of what we’ve been talking about, which is you have to slow down to move fast, that the investments in making a strong connection is really a very small one in terms of time, but if you are intentional with your actions, you’ll have a very big impact. So, small acts of human kindness have huge and rewarding impact.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Melanie Katzman
Follow me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn at Melanie Katzman. And all of these different social media platforms, almost every week I put out a minute of advice, so you can grab a minute with Melanie and it’s just very topical, practical advice that helps you just be better in that day and, hopefully, in that week.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Melanie Katzman
Yeah. It’s up to you. It doesn’t matter whether you are in a cubicle, whether you are working out of a closet right now, or whether you’re occupying a corner office, that it’s up to you and how you behave. And that will change and impact the culture of everybody around you. And that if you want to have joy and meaning at work, you make it happen by what you do and how you do it, and how you do it with people who you might not even think to include but probably should and could and will benefit by doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Melanie, this has been a treat. Thank you and I wish you lots of luck in all of your connecting.

Melanie Katzman
Thank you so much. And it was great to be connected to you, and thanks for a great interview.