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KF #35. Tech Savvy Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Oct 02
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903: How to Save Time Using ChatGPT at Work with Donna McGeorge

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Donna McGeorge provides practical examples of how to use ChatGPT to get work done faster and easier.

You’ll Learn:

  1. How to get started with ChatGPT
  2. What ChatGPT does better and worse than a human
  3. Tricks and prompts to get the most out of ChatGPT

About Donna

Donna McGeorge is a passionate productivity coach with modern time management strategies designed to enhance the time we spend in our workplace.

With more than 20 years of experience working with managers and leaders throughout Australia and Asia-Pacific, Donna delivers practical skills, training, workshops, and facilitation to corporations—such as Nissan Motor Company, Jetstar, Medibank Private, and Ford Motor Company—so they learn to manage their people well and produce great performance and results.

As a captivating, upbeat, and engaging resource on time management and productivity, Donna has been featured on The Today Show, on radio interviews across Australia, and has written for publications including The Age, Boss Magazine, Smart Company, B&T Magazine, and HRM.

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Donna McGeorge Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Donna, welcome back to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Donna McGeorge
Thanks for having me, Pete. Great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so excited to be chatting with you about ChatGPT. It’s overdue, frankly, that we have an episode dedicated to this. And, Donna, you just happen to be an expert, and we already love you, so I’m stoked to be chatting again.

Donna McGeorge
Oh, look, it’s not as overdue as you think. I’m quite surprised at how I thought ChatGPT would be taken up by millions, well, it has, but it’d be over the place by now, but it’s been a little slower than I thought.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I just saw some research from Pew, and this was maybe in July, so it’s probably a little higher by now, that in the US, about 60-ish percent of people had heard of ChatGPT, and of those who had heard of it, who have college degrees, which is most of our listeners in the US, about 32% of folks had used it. Does that sound about right from what you’ve seen in your research as well?

Donna McGeorge
Yeah. And so, my research is mostly standing in a conference and asking people to raise their hand. And so, when I’ve got a room full of people, and I say, “How many of you have heard of it?” It’s the same, it’s around 60-70% of hands up. And then, “Keep your hand up if you’ve actually used it or you are using it?” and the hands dropped considerably.

And then I’d say, “Now, who’s loving it and using it pretty much for their everyday world?” and then the hands dropped again in terms of using it consistently. But, again, that’s pretty anecdotal just from watching crowds.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, now, it’s just good to get a fresher test on that because it’s sort of, in my world, it comes up a lot. And so, it’s just good for context.

Donna McGeorge
I don’t know if I’m just a bubble but, like, everyone I know is using it but it’s like I go out into the world and I find all these people that some have never even heard of it, it’s like, “Wow, you’ve been living under a rock,” because that’s how it feels to me anyway.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think it’s funny, when it comes to many tools, I remember it had been years until I learned that I could enable shortcut keys in Gmail, and I was like, “How come nobody told me about this all these years? How many hours have been burned without me knowing I can enable shortcut keys in Gmail?” But then I did and I never went back, and, actually, I went with Superhuman to kick it up another notch. So, yes, tools can take a while to permeate.

And that’s what I want to talk about because there’s a lot of hype, and maybe why don’t we start with it since, hey, not everybody’s familiar. Let’s take maybe three minutes. What is ChatGPT? How do we get it and use it? And why bother?

Donna McGeorge
All right. So, I’m not going to go down the massive technical path that people are hugely interested in, the technical backend of it all. I’ll let them go Google that. But in terms of what you need to know to use it every day, it’s a large language model it’s been trained on. What that means is it has access to all published written communication up until about September 2021, so that’s all books, all articles, all websites, all research papers, pretty much everything.

So, the way I like to think of it is it’s like a librarian that has read every book ever written, read any paper, looked at every website, remembers anything, and can quote from it, ad nauseam, really. You ask it a question; it can pull from all of that knowledge to give you a reasonable answer. And so, look, it has its pitfalls. If you know a little bit about it, you probably read some of the negative stuff because it’s pulling data from all over the place, sometimes it puts stuff together that’s not true. The technical term of it is hallucination.

And, certainly, sometimes when I’ve asked it to give me references for various bits of stuff that I’m looking for, it makes up whole references, puts whole names of scientists together, and says they’ve written a paper, and they just never did.

Pete Mockaitis
Right, indeed. Well said. Thank you. All right. So, we’ve got an artificial intelligence, a large language model, it’s called, and it’s read the whole internet, or a fraction of it, and a bunch of books and stuff, and, thusly, you can interact with it. And so, if someone is like, “Whoa, that is cool. How do I do it? How do I get there? How do I play with it?”

Donna McGeorge
Okay, the easiest way is to go and register a free account with OpenAI, and you can get started straight away. What I’ll do is I’ll send you, and you can put it in the show notes. I’ve got a list of prompts across a range of different aspects of both our professional and personal lives, but it’s straight out of the book that I’ve written. But it can give people something to play with rather than just sitting there, looking at it, going, “I don’t even know how to start.”

Because it’s so big and it’s got so many potential uses that I hear someone, even today, say, “Hey, I used it for X, Y, Z,” and I’m like, “Well, I would never have even thought of that.” So, it’s not exactly something you can just go and sit in front of and start playing with. You got to have a reason. So, you go register for a free account. It’ll talk to you probably about the paid version. I would say 80% of my use it with the free version.

I’ve got the paid version but I mostly use the free version. And go play around with it with something that’s relatively harmless, like, I don’t know, meal planning and holiday planning just to see what it’s capable of.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. So, OpenAI.com, and you click Try ChatGPT, and so you can start taking a look. And you’re right, you just have a box, you can type anything into it, and then it will go for it. You can say, “Hey, tell me a poem about sand timers,” and it will tell me any number of things. I have a buddy who likes to say, “Hey, rewrite this email I just wrote but make it more polite,” and then it does the thing he forgets to say, like, “Hello, hope you had a great weekend.” He’s like, “Oh, yeah, I probably should’ve said that. Okay, yeah, thanks, ChatGPT.”

So, that’s really where I think you can be super useful here, is to help us understand, like, what is overly hyped and just sort of silly? Like, are the robots taking over mankind, they’re going to enslave us? Is this the answer to everything? We’re all going to get fired. Like, what’s too much hype? And what is really possible for us right here, right now that’s useful that can save us time and increase our results at work?

Donna McGeorge
Okay. So, the overhyped stuff is, now, look, it could be because I come in from a more Star Trek optimistic future of the world where humans are awesome and everyone is getting along nicely, and we’ve got the occasional attack from Klingons. Like, that’s kind of it. So, I have a more utopian view of the future so I don’t believe robots are going to take over the world. I think it could be a thousand years from now, an evolutionary marker where humans just get, again, a whole level of smarter than the technology that we’re creating, it could be.

I certainly don’t think we’re going to see a wholesale loss of jobs no more or less than any other technological breakthrough that has created some loss of jobs but created some new ones. So, I’m old enough to remember when the internet first came out, and all the kind of palaver we’re hearing now about it’s going to take jobs, it’s going to destroy the world, all of that started to happen when the internet became a thing that we carried around in our pockets, it was on our desktops, it was readily available.

So, it’s the same kind of technophobia that’s been around since, frankly, the printing press was a thing. And so, what we’ll see is new jobs or new ways of doing work. So, my advice around this is let’s not worry, “Is it going to take my job?” I can’t remember who said this but it’s been floating around for a while, “Don’t worry about it taking your job. Worry about someone who adopts AI and use the tools of this. They’ll probably take your job.” So, if you don’t keep up with it, then you’re at more risk of that than losing it straight out to AI.

Having said that, gosh, there’s some mundane administrative things that we do on a day-to-day basis that AI could be really helpful for, like any kind of repetitive processing or data entry that has a human looking at some kind of written file, and then typing it into some kind of system. I mean, there’s already systems that do that. So, I suspect that’s the kind of work that would go away.

Pete Mockaitis
And for right now, today, something that professionals can use ChatGPT to assist them with, I’d love to get your perspective. I know that some folks, if English or whatever language, is not their first language, and is maybe a little bit rough, they’ll say what they’re roughly trying to say in the language that they mostly know, and then ChatGPT just give it an automatic polish that has a little bit more smarts to it than, say, a spell check or grammar checks, so that’s sure handy. Tell us, what else are you seeing is super useful that folks are doing right now?

Donna McGeorge
Right. So, look, so I don’t even know where to start but I actually think this is a massive literacy gamechanger. So, you talked about English as a second language. I’m going to go back to the kids that struggled at school because written comms wasn’t that easy for them or they were dyslexic so they left early and have now considered themselves not terribly well educated, can’t spell, don’t know grammar terribly well, and that holds them back.

And so, this is an absolute literacy gamechanger so we don’t ever have to worry about that again. In fact, there are already stories about people who are saying, “Here’s what I wanted to write,” misspelled, no grammar, really poorly strung together sentences, whack it into ChatGPT, and it comes with a “Dear Madam,” like perfect kind of phrased email.

So, what I know, as someone who writes a lot about productivity, is one of the biggest bugbears of many people is email. And so, first of all, it’s volume, so volume of email, then other ChatGPT can’t help with that just yet. But, certainly, sometimes the time we spend responding to something that’s a bit tricky, so, as you said before, your friend that had to, “Here’s what I want to say. Now, make it sound slightly empathetic and friendly,” well, people are using it, heaps are writing emails.

In fact, I predict, once Microsoft get their act together with this, there’ll probably be a button in your Outlook email in the future, maybe Google as well, that you click on, that says, “Compose a response,’ and it will automatically generate a response for you. So, that’s going to save us a pile of time. But right now, you can already do that.

I even did it myself recently, a delicate no letter. Someone wanted to work with me, not really my thing, they were pretty insistent, so I said, “Hey, help me write a really delicate letter that’s assertive in my no, I don’t want to roll over, but maintains the relationship.” So, I’m going to say any written comms. So, as a business owner, I struggle with writing about myself, bios, website copy, email newsletters, social media copy, that’s the sort of stuff I struggle with, so I use it for that.

In corporate, so I’m hearing people using it for similar things, putting proposals together, writing about products, and getting ChatGPT to edit and get feedback on product descriptions. So, if you say, “Here’s a product description. It’s for this market. Can you please make it sound more attractive or irresistible to this market?” and it will then put the words in it. Because of our humility frames, we’re not terribly good at talking up stuff, whereas, ChatGPT is shameless. It’ll talk to your stuff up no end.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. Oh, Donna, I think you’ve just really nailed something there. Our humility frames that we have as humans, ChatGPT does not, is not a human, and it can be shameless. And I think that’s great, you said, “Hey, I have to say no but in a way that’s polite.” I think, whenever you have some written communication with some emotional resistance, like, “Aargh, this is kind of complicated and tricky. I sort of feel like I owe them but it doesn’t work for me,” it’s like you could just say, “Hey, write an email response to this letter, copy/paste, or email copy/paste, that is very polite and says no.”

Or, emotionally, I remember I had a landlord who, I think, just had some unrealistic expectations for what a tenant was supposed to do. I won’t go into details. But at one point, I thought, I’m sure this landlord is going to drop in and find fault with all sorts of things, and demand that we do all kinds of things, like, “How about you repaint some walls?” I’m like, “I’m pretty that’s not my job as a tenant.” But whatever.

So, I said, “Hey, write an email from a landlord that’s utterly disgusted with the condition of a unit in the nastiest language possible, taking the role in the nastiest thing, whatever.” And so, what’s funny was so I read it and it was sort of like an inoculation or a vaccine or a preventative measure, because it’s like, “Okay, this is not real. This is not a real human but this is just the AI writing it up.”

And sure enough, once I read this harsh language that was AI-generated, later on I did get a harsh email from the landlord that was like, “Oh, I was expecting this, I prepared for this, and this isn’t so bad.” And it genuinely helped my emotional coping with that situation because I don’t like being judged and told I’m doing a terrible job at something in any context. That’s me.

Donna McGeorge
Right. So, it took the sting out of that because you had somehow prepared for it. And chances are, the actual email you got was nowhere near as harsh as the one that ChatGPT generated.

Pete Mockaitis
No, it was about half as harsh.

Donna McGeorge
Right. And lots of people are doing around things like feedback. And so, if I’m writing something, and I say, “Give me feedback on my style,” I don’t get offended by…I call it Charlie, by the way. I don’t get offended by Charlie because it’s just a robot, and it gives me really good structural, editorial, to-the-point, very distinct feedback.

Now, I don’t know why I would take it better from Charlie than I would from a human, but two things I reckon. One is the emotional aspect of working with a human. And, secondly, the human probably wouldn’t be that harsh with me. They’d probably couch it with a little bit of cottonwool around it or something like that. And so, that’s one side of it.

The other side of it is Charlie doesn’t get offended. When you tell it, it writes you something, and you say, “Actually, that’s a big pile of rubbish. I need it done this way, this way, this way.” And it apologizes, “Sorry about that. I’ll have another go.”

Pete Mockaitis
“I’m sorry, Donna.”

Donna McGeorge
Yes. Not quite in the dulcet tones of how, which is probably showing my knack for anything but, yes, no it doesn’t quite speak spit to me yet.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, so another’s thing. I guess now it can speak to you in the iPhone app and/or with some plugins. I haven’t played with that yet but I think that just might be handy like on the car. Like, you’re thinking about something, you could have a little bit of a conversation, I assume you could use the Siri activation button, I don’t know yet. Be safe, everybody, in your vehicles. Don’t look at your screen.

But I assume you can have some voice activation, get back-and-forth conversations, which can be handy so I can then read that later, and maybe actually get some good thought work done while driving, which is often hard to do because you’re not looking at a screen or a notebook to write it, so that’s really cool.

Donna McGeorge
Well, the thing that I find when I’m driving is accessing. Usually, if I’m driving, particularly long distances, which is just about everywhere in Australia that you’re driving long distances between one place and another. And so, I go into that really awesome alpha brainwave state, which is often when my creativity kicks in, so you’re absolutely right.

So, whether it’s, “Hey, Siri, make a note of this,” or, “Hey, Charlie,” or ChatGPT, “look, let’s have a conversation about this,” I think it’s a useful tool to think about. But you have done something else in here around, again, the aspect of literacy or creativity where some people say, “All right, I’m terrible at written communication but I can talk about my ideas.”

And so, maybe you’re struggling to explain in written form so you talk it through, record it into ChatGPT, ask it then to construct whatever output you’re looking for, like an awesome proposal letter or something like that, or lots of people are using it to help them get their resumes in good shape, their cover letters in good shape. But just be very careful that you edit it because it’s starting to get pretty obvious when people…there’s things you can do to not make it obvious.

If you’re not very well-versed with it, a straight copy and paste out of ChatGPT is a little obvious, it can be a little obvious.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s right. I found, because we’ve been experimenting with it in all kinds of contexts, in terms of writing episode titles and teasers and descriptions, it doesn’t do as good a job as we humans do, in our humble opinions of ourselves, but it can spark a few ideas, like, “Oh, that is a good turn of a phrase. Yeah, I’ll grab that. Okay. Oh, okay. I like that sentence there. Okay, we’ll take that.”

So, it can be a nice little starting point, and sometimes your copy doesn’t have to be smashingly captivating, it’s like, “Yeah, good enough. Good enough for this email response, copy, paste, done.” Other times, it can be a launching point. But one of my favorite little tricks is I’ll just ask for sheer quantity. I’ll say, “Give me 20 potential titles for this summary,” and then it’s like, “Ooh, I like this word from number two, and that word from number seven, and, thank you for your inspiration. Your work is done here,” even though I took none of the titles that it actually gave me.

Donna McGeorge
And that’s the shift that a lot of people are struggling to make because many think of it as something like Google, where you go in and you put a command in, and say, “Hey, give me a recipe for a banana bread,” or something like that. Whereas, you can go into ChatGPT, and say, “Give me 10 recipes for gluten-free sweetish snacks, and generate a shopping list that goes with that,” and it’ll give you the whole thing. So, the volume aspect is really powerful.

I did the same thing. I played around with blog titles. So, one of the tricks that I do is if I know my target audience, which is often women in leadership positions who want to level up, so I say, “This is my target audience. Give me a list of their hopes, fears, dreams, and aspirations. And then give me three suggested blog titles for each one. And then give me an absolutely irresistible captivating headline that will draw people’s attention.”

And, boom, before I know, I’ve got a quarter’s worth of social media, not copy because I’ll still go in and create much of it. I’ll get it to help me but at least I’ve got a plan in place and all my topics sorted out. And that sort of thing, this is where it really, for me, this is where I became interested in it. I became interested in the time savings that we can garner from it.

So, whether it’s spending time and energy agonizing over an email response, or the time energy to generate a social media plan for your target audience, or whatever it might be, research out of MIT says you’re saving at least 37%. I reckon it’s more for me. I reckon it’s taking me maybe about 30% of the time to do some of this stuff.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, that’s cool. So, lay it on us, what are some of the hugest timesavers, and if you’ve got them, special prompts, that you’ve generated that had helped you realize these time savings using ChatGPT?

Donna McGeorge
Probably the first one is teaching. So, I’m a writer, so that may be a bit different to some of you, so I’m regularly writing articles and things. So, I’ve taught it how to write in my style. So, one of the very first prompts I did was I told it its personality, “You are an expert, a writing style analyzer. Analyze the following passages and play it back to me in a way that I can then,” this is a bit convoluted, “…that I can then feed it back to you so future writing will be in this style,” and so it made sense of that.

I then copied and pasted a couple of chapters from one of my books, and it spits out, and says, “You have a very engaging conversational style using anecdotes and rhetorical questions.” I go, “Awesome!” Now, in the free version, I then I copied it and say, “I need an article, 700 words, for this publication on this topic using this style. Get a start for me.”

Now, to make a start on any kind, like a blank page, whether it’s an email, or a proposal, or anything, that’s often the hardest bit to overcome. So, you never have to wait again. So, I go in there, it gets me a start, and then I’d say, “Rubbish first drafts are around 50% useful.” That’s one thing, teaching it to write like me.

Just FYI, the paid version now has an option in it where you can permanently put information like that, “Anytime I ask you to write an article, use this information.” And so, you can now train it with your stuff. There’s also plugins where I’ve been able to put PDF versions of my books, and I say, “Write this article using the following content from the following PDFs.” So, I don’t know if we’re about plagiarism now because it’s using my stuff.

So, there are a couple of timesavers for me, straight away, that means that I can generate good quality content, still human edited, in a matter of an hour. Whereas, it could’ve taken me half a day, to a full day, sometimes to write something of reasonable quality. So, that’s the first thing, any writing task. I would say anytime you’re stuck, as someone who’s done a bit of research into what happens in our head when we start to get overwhelmed, we end up in cycles that uses a lot of energy, and two hours of agonizing and we’re still having got more than a sentence on a page. So, whatever you’re agonizing over, ask it, and it will give you at least some response.

I think the volume thing is a good one because we can cut straight to the chase, “Give me 10,” you don’t have to ask for one, “Give me 10, 20, 30” however many you need. Things of a personal nature, “I’ve got my 55-year-old sister-in law, likes 1980s country and western music. Can you suggest 10 gift ideas for her that aren’t records, as in CDs or music or whatever, under 50 bucks?” because I’m a cheapskate. So, boom, all my Christmas shopping now will be a list generated there.

Meal planning. Holiday planning, “I’m about to jump in the car with a couple of pre-teens, what’s some great podcasts we could listen to?” So, it’s an entertainment curator. They’re all the things I’m using it for that just mean I can put my time and attention on the things that only a human can do in my life.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. I like these sorts of themes we’re collecting here. So, emotional writing, we’ve got some hangups, we’re humble, we’re awkward. Just starting the writing. It’s a blank page. It’s intimidating. “Give me a volume of ideas. Give me 20 options.” A curator of things. And with that, I like it how you could say, “Hey, I’m looking for the music,” for example, like, ‘80s music, or, “I want music kind of like artist A, B, C and D. Now give me some more,” which I think is pretty cool.

And, likewise, even with podcast guests, it’s like, “Hey, ‘How to be Awesome at Your Job’ is about this. We’ve had some guests such name, name, name. Who might be some others?” And it’s funny, it’s sort of like, “We had them, and them, and them, and them.” It’s like, “Well, we’ve already had them but thanks for trying, ChatGPT. You’re in the right zone.”

Donna McGeorge
That’s why sometimes I think of it as an eager intern. It’s eager to give you more of the stuff that you want but doesn’t always give you the right thing. But, hey, just quickly on the playlist thing, there’s a Spotify plugin now, so you can now give it access to your Spotify account. So, when you say, “I like artists like this. Give me playlist for this. Oh, by the way, then whack it into Spotify for me.” So, that’s pretty cool.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. Also, with curation, it’s cool. Sometimes I’ll say, “Hey, I’m looking to do this. Give me a great book that will help me do just that.”

Donna McGeorge
Or, even better, “Give me 10. Give me 10 great books.”

Pete Mockaitis
Exactly, yes. Like, “What’s a good book to help me reprogram my brain to enjoy effort, struggle, and mistakes?” ChatGPT recommends Mindset. And I say, “Can you give me 10 more?” And it says, “Oh, yeah. All right, here we go.” So, we got Grit, Antifragile, Ode to Happiness, etc. So, I just think that’s pretty darn handy.

And it works differently because sometimes it’s different than keywords because it’s, like, sometimes I don’t yet know the keywords, and sometimes I’ll specifically say, “Hey, what’s a word that means like Washington counts for like the seat of US governmental power that’s a figure of speech?” It’s like, “Oh, you’re talking about metonymy.” It’s like, “Oh, yes, thank you, if I’m even saying that right.” It’s like I didn’t know the keyword but it can generate that for me, so I dig that.

Well, maybe let’s flip it on its head now, Donna. We’ve been speaking breathlessly about how great this tool is. What are some of the limitations? What are some requests that it’s probably just going to fail us on, disappoint us on, and we would take its advice at our own peril?

Donna McGeorge
Well, first of all, it does make stuff up because it’s pulling information from all over the world, so it sometimes puts stuff together that’s not quite right. So, if you’re writing, for me, if I’m writing a book, and, by the way, to write my recent book, I did get Charlie to help me do that. So, if I’m writing a book, I still go back to Google to check my references and stuff like that because that’s important.

Look, I had to say it but it’s often about the quality of the prompts that we do that means that you get a bit of rubbish from ChatGPT. So, when people say, “Oh, I tried it once and I got a terrible response,” I’m like, “Well, did you go back and have a conversation with it? Did you tell it, it was terrible? Did you give it some more parameters?”

So, I got a bit frustrated this week because I was trying to get it to write me a story in the first person about some famous people, and it kept giving me almost obituary-style responses. And I asked it three or four times, and it still wasn’t getting it right, so I kind of pause, went off, had a bit of a break, came back, and re-crafted my prompt, and put the words in, “And I don’t want an obituary,” and I started to get the right thing.

So, occasionally, it kind of is smarter than its own good. It thinks that that’s what, in that case, it’s trying to outthink or be that eager intern that says what it thinks you’re looking for and add a bit of extra value, when I just didn’t need it to do that. So, for me, it comes back to the prompts. Certainly, if you’re looking for current data, just my point, asking it what the weather is like in San Francisco today because it will say, “No, I can’t help you with that because that’s not what I’m for.” I have had once, I violated their terms, the way in which they operated, there’s this little message that comes up.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, boy, what did you do, Donna?

Donna McGeorge
I know.

Pete Mockaitis
You naughty.

Donna McGeorge
I was researching for a fictional book, and I was using a real-life person as the model for what I was doing. And so, I asked a pretty tricky question about this real-life person, and I think it was implying that I was either going to stalk him, or murder him, or something like that, I don’t know, so I had to go in, there’s a little, “Please explain” thing that I had to fill in.

So, on the one hand, that was a little bit frustrating, but, on the other, I was kind of encouraged by that. So, I would say that’s the efforts by the OpenAI folks to try and alleviate some of the fear that people have around it being used for evil.

Pete Mockaitis
Understood. And any other shortcomings you’ve seen? I guess I’ve asked it to write compelling headlines, it sort of fallen a little bit short but it just gave me a ton of options and I can mix and match and edit, and that’s cool. And I think I’ve also found that someone said it very well that AI can tell you, because that’s how it works, it generates the next most likely word to come, so it tends to give you the most obvious answers, as opposed to wildly creative answers, which I think I found that to be the case. But sometimes, the obvious thing is actually really handy, like, “Thank you. I should’ve thought of that.”

Donna McGeorge
Right. Yeah, if you need any obvious thing, it’s awesome, because sometimes I do that. I say, “Here’s a pattern that I’ve created. Here are two points in a pattern, because we know the world loves the rule of three. So, what could be the third? Give me 10 options for the third thing.” And the first one is the obvious one, and I go, “Of course. Why didn’t I think of that?” So, that’s useful.

But I’ve told it, if I’m really wanting something different, I’ll ask it to be a critic of whatever I’m talking about. So, one time, I was writing about burnout, and I said, “Be as if you’re a critic of burnout, and write me three paragraphs on why you think burnout, or what criticisms you have of burnout.” Anyway, so it spat out this piece that said, “Burnout is just a thing made up by people who are lazy, and dah, dah, dah.” And I’m like, “That was fun.”

Like, I would never use it in the article, but it was just fun to kind of get kind of like what you did with your “Write me the nastiest possible email from a landlord,” thing. It gave me a bit of, “Whoa, that’s interesting.” But I do ask it several times, “Give me nonconventional, give me something out of the box.” It’s not quite capable of doing that. It’s not able to do really, I don’t think, yet the really abstract stuff that the connections that a human mind can make as well. So, often when I say, “Give me this stuff that’s nonconventional,” I still get pretty conventional stuff from it.

Pete Mockaitis
It’s true. And there was a Wall Street Journal article, which we’ll link to, and I’ve mentioned in a recent podcast episode, about how AI was generating more and more new creative product ideas than some MBA students, and I had to read the full text of the paper, as I do, and I wasn’t that impressed. I guess it can generate a lot of ideas fast, no doubt. That’s very impressive that it can do that. But the quality of the ideas were like, “A portable printer,” I was like, “Well, yeah, that’s nice but you didn’t invent that. That exists, there are many options for that.” So, it can’t do that.

But what I do like is sometimes I’ll ask for it to engage me in metaphor, like, “Hey, let’s say that running a podcast is like captaining a ship in the ocean. What would be some of the elements of the metaphor?” And then that can help just spark my own ideas, and I find it handy in that regard. Or, I’ll say, “Give me advice on this issue as Yoda would, or as Tony Robbins would, or as Marshall Goldsmith would.” And so, that’s just sort of fun to say, “Oh, yeah, I guess Tony Robbins probably would say something kind of like that. David Allen probably would say something like that.”

So, sometimes I think that helps me a little bit in terms of it’s not groundbreakingly novel but it gets my own brain a shove in a direction to help me get to novel with a little bit of help.

Donna McGeorge
Yes. So, I’ve got it because a couple of my favorite writers, because I love the way they think, Malcolm Gladwell and Steve Levitt, so I’ll say, “This is the topic. What are some quotes, if they were writing the article, what might they say about it because I’m looking for a slightly different angle?” But you’re right, it’s usually something to give me a bit of a poke or a bit of a shove in a direction when I’m stuck.

And so, I think this kind of comes back to this idea of, “In what aspects of your world do you just get stuck and you end up wasting your time spinning your wheels because you can’t find an answer?” On the more emotional level, I had a woman recently say to me that she’d been using it to help craft responses to her ex who she was divorcing.

Because she couldn’t afford a lawyer, and a lawyer had said, “If you give us the basic information we need, we’ll then spend a small amount of time crafting the legal documents that are needed. But all the research-y stuff and all the kind of the backend stuff, if you can do the bulk of that, it’ll save you a truckload of money.”

And so, she was using, she told ChatGPT, “Act as if you are my divorce lawyer, ask me a series of questions to be able to fill in all the paperwork,” and she was able to get all the documentation that they needed collated, and saved herself a whole pile of money as part of her divorce, which I thought was quite…

Just quick disclaimer now. Please do not use ChatGPT for legal documents. You’d still need a lawyer to submit all that stuff, but, yeah, it was a real gamechanger for her.

Pete Mockaitis
I also recommended ChatGPT to a friend going through a divorce in terms of like, “I’ve got all these questions I’m supposed to answer,” I was like, “Well, for a first draft, let me show this.” He’s like, “Wow, that’s pretty impressive.” So, that is cool. You say when you’re stuck, I’ve also found it helpful when you’re stuck, when you’re researching and your search engines aren’t getting it done.

And it’s because, well, hey, the sad state of affairs of the internet in terms of searching is that many of the top search results are there very intentionally by companies with a budget who have hired search engine optimization professionals to accomplish that very goal, and they have succeeded. And so, you might not actually be getting the most useful information. It’s just like the most “relevant and authoritative in the eyes of Google” information, and that’s, in many ways, gamed intentionally. And not everywhere, and often it works just the way it should, and so we’re delighted with the result.

But sometimes I found, when I can’t find a product, ChatGPT can find it. Like, “I need to find a car seat that’s super narrow so I can get three across,” and it’s like I’m having a hard time finding that in Google and in Amazon, and then this thing is recommending, ChatGPT is recommending stuff that was not popping up in those searches, like, “Well, that’s very helpful.”

Donna McGeorge
Look, I’m going to catch this with at this point in time, there doesn’t seem to be that kind of product bias. Like, if you pay someone a chunk of money, your products end up being at the top of the list no matter what search criteria is put in there. I would agree. But I’d also say the risk is that we treat it like a search engine because it’s not a search engine. It’s someone you’re having a conversation with.

It’s more like you’ve got someone sitting next to you that you turn around, and go, “Hey, I’m really struggling finding this product, and, clearly, my search string in Google is not working. Can you help me maybe redefine what might be the parameters I need to get Google to work better for me that also bypasses all the paid ads so I can actually get to the product that I need?” and get it to help you craft your Google search right.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, it is. I think about it, I read somewhere, it is an intelligence but it’s an alien intelligence, and I thought that was well said. And I like to think of it as my alien intern who has read the whole internet or a good chunk of it, and so it’s like, “You’ve read a lot of stuff, alien intern. What do you think about this?” Alien because it’s got to be different than human, so watch out. And intern because, “Hey, I’m in charge. I am never going to blindly copy/paste what you say. I’m going to, at the very least, read it, and most likely edit, pick and choose, edit heavily.”

Donna McGeorge
Right. What you’ve actually got is an alien intern that has a hangover.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah.

Donna McGeorge
And so, they’re keen and eager to do the work for you. It’s going to be a bit nonhuman and alien in its form, but you better check it because sometimes it’s just a bit dim on certain days if it’s had a big night the night before.

Pete Mockaitis
Well said. An alien intern with a hangover. We can get some AI to generate art to that effect for us as well. That’s a whole another episode, I guess.

Donna McGeorge
That’s a whole another episode.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, Donna, any final thoughts before we shift gears? Well, first of all, your book is called The ChatGPT Revolution. Got to make sure that title gets in there, right? It sounds like it talks about any sorts of things. Anything, specifically, you want to mention about the book proper?

Donna McGeorge
Only that you can grab it from any reputable online bookselling place, on my website. But, look, I’d say when my publisher approached me to write it, we were like, “Well, what’s the angle we want on it?” So, it’s very much “Get me started, I’m interested.” It’s probably already, in fact, I know this passage in it, it’s already a little bit out of date because the technology is moving very quickly, but it’ll get you started and get you going, and get you interested.

And in terms of, I think you started to say what would be a last message, I think, around this or any kind of last comment I’d say, I would say get interested, get curious, and a saying we have in Australia is just have a crack, have a go at it, go in and try it out, and play with it. Be playful at first, which is why the list of prompts that’ll be in the show notes, are not terribly earth shattering but they’re something to get you going with.

And you can’t break it. It’s not like you can get in there, and go, “Oops, I broke ChatGPT.” The worst that can happen is you just get a somewhat rubbish response, in which case you tell it, “Gee, that was a bit rubbish. Try again from this angle.” So, have a go, have a crack is what I would say.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Donna McGeorge
From David Allen, you mentioned him earlier, “The human mind is for having ideas, not storing them.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Donna McGeorge
So, Taylor’s study, it’s called the pig iron studies from the late 19th century. I love him. He discovered that you can actually achieve way more if you take plenty of breaks throughout your day.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite book?

Donna McGeorge
Apart from my own, I can’t stop thinking about Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman. Awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
And what do you love about the book?

Donna McGeorge
Look, it just got me thinking differently about the finite nature of time. And he has a really interesting angle around settling. So, we’re told nearly all our lives, “Don’t settle. You could always go for more.” And his position is, “Well, why wouldn’t you settle and make good with what you’ve got rather than constantly seeking this better job, better relationships, better something?” And I’ve not stopped thinking about that, actually. That’s really got me going.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool?

Donna McGeorge
I’m afraid I’m going to talk about my own, which comes from one of my books, called The First 2 Hours, which is a way in which I think about how I do my work and how I do my to-do list. There are some things that are better to do in the morning and some that are better to do in the afternoons. So, I’m happy to share a PDF of that tool as well in the show notes if you like.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yes, thank you. And a favorite habit?

Donna McGeorge
Early to bed, early to rise. That’s me. I like to get plenty of sleep.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And is there a favorite nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Donna McGeorge
Yeah, pay attention to the clock in your body, not the one on the wall.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Donna McGeorge
Just my website, DonnaMcGeorge.com. And I’m a shameless self-promoter, you’ll find me on my social media platforms, and my name is a bit unusual, Donna McGeorge.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Donna McGeorge
Absolutely. It’s a version of something that Sean Patrick Flanery said, which is, “Do something today that your future self will thank you for.”

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Donna, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun with ChatGPT and all you’re up to.

Donna McGeorge
Thanks, Pete. Great to be on the show. Thanks for having me.

Jul 26
0

469: How to Keep Robots from Stealing Your Job with Alexandra Levit

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Alexandra Levit says: "Put yourself in a position to be the most effective person in a certain job... [that way] even if some of the jobs disappear, you're still going to be at the top."

Futurist Alexandra Levit explains what the “robot takeover” will really look like and how you can stay relevant despite it.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The problem with how organizations automate
  2. Honest predictions about the future of the human workforce
  3. The essentials skills that make you future-proof

About Alexandra:

Alexandra Levit has conducted proprietary research on the future of work, technology adoption, the millennial generation, gender differences and bias, and the skills gap. She also served as a member of Business Roundtable’s Springboard Project, which advised the Obama administration, the U.S. Department of Labor, and the U.S. Department of Defense on current employment issues.

Levit also consults and writes on leadership development, human resources, technology adoption, entrepreneurship, innovation, career and workplace trends on behalf of Fortune 500 companies.

She is a frequent national media spokesperson and is regularly featured in outlets including USA Today,National Public Radio, CNN, ABC News, CNBC, Forbes, the Associated Press, and Glamour. Levit was named an American Management Association Top Leader for two years in a row and has also beenMoney Magazine’s Online Career Expert of the Year and the author of one of Forbes’ best websites for women.

Resources mentioned in the show:

Thank you, Sponsors!

Alexandra Levit Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Alexandra, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Alexandra Levit
Thanks for having me, Pete. It’s great to be here.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, we usually start with a fun little warmup question. So, I’d love to hear from you, are the robots going to kill and enslave us all?

Alexandra Levit
Are the robots going to kill and enslave us? The answer to that would be no, at least not in the foreseeable future. There’s something called the technological singularity which refers to a point in time in which technology will become so advanced that we really don’t know how it’s going to transform our society. Our society will not look like it does today. So, all bets are off when it comes to that point.

But I think we can pretty safely say for the next 15-20 years that we can anticipate what robots are going to do and, really, they’re going to be good partners. They aren’t going to replace humans, they’re not going to enslave humans, they are going to work alongside us, and, hopefully, in most occupations, allow us to do things that are more strategic and more meaningful, and focus on the work that matters to us.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, well, thank you.

Alexandra Levit
You’re welcome.

Pete Mockaitis
I find that comforting. Way back when I was in college, we were talking about this and there were a couple of my classmates who were totally convinced it was going to happen, and he even used the evidence point, “Have you seen the movie Terminator?” I was like, “Well, I have but that’s a movie and I don’t think that’s a good evidence point.” So, 15-20 years we’re safe. That feels good.

Alexandra Levit
Yeah, I think your friends are not wrong to be concerned, and we can certainly talk about the reasons to be concerned and the reasons not to be concerned, but I think in the long run it is something we’re going to have to think about because these are very powerful machines, they’re getting more powerful all the time.

And so, while the growth I don’t think is as exaggerated as some people might think in terms of machine learning and machine’s ability to really replicate and simulate human emotions and consciousness, it’s not as fast as some people might think, but there’s really no reason to think it wouldn’t happen eventually. So, I’m going to agree with your friends but try to temper the hysteria a little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I appreciate that. Okay, well, with that established and a little bit of a breath of relief.

Alexandra Levit
A little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s talk about what’s up with automation these days. There’s a lot of buzz and I’d love it if you could just sort of set us straight on, okay, what are some of the most striking data and stories that point to where automation is replacing workers and where it’s really not?

Alexandra Levit
Well, this is a great question, and I think the primary message I want to get across when it comes to automation is that you can’t just take huge swaths of your employee population and fire them so that you can automate everything. What I see organizations doing tends to be either too much or too little. So, too little means they bury their head in the sand and they really should be automating certain functions, and they’re not doing that because they’re behind the curve, which that’s not an unfamiliar situation for organizations, particularly when it comes to technology.

And other organizations aren’t being strategic enough about it. They’re just saying, “Well, just because I can automate something, well, that means that I should.” And, in fact, what we need to take is a far more measured approach. We need to look at specific tasks, and what the objective is, and then determine, “Okay, well, is this something where it’s a routine task, it’s something that needs to be replicated, it’s something that doesn’t require ethics or judgment?” It’s something that we have machines that can perform for us, freeing up our human workers to do different types of tasks that do require a little bit more abstract thinking, or creativity, or ethical concerns, or judgment, those types of things.

And what we need to do is look at it on a case-by-case basis. And we’ve seen kind of what happens when organizations don’t do that, when they just blindly automate things, and then there might be human workers there but they’re taught to just kind of stand blindly by while the machine tells them what to do, and the machine is not considering the nuances.

There have been several instances of this. The most famous one actually happened here in Chicago, where you and I are both are. It involved the United Airlines a couple years ago, where algorithm told them, “We need to get these flight attendants from one place to another. That’s the best scenario for business, that’s where we’ll make the greatest profit.” And because the algorithm said so, and the system was automated, the human employees just kind of stood there and were like, “Oh, okay.” And nobody really considered, “If we pull passengers off this plane in order to get these flight attendants on, what’s going to be the impact on our brand? What’s going to be the impact on our reputation, on our customer service?”

And the machine is not thinking about that because the machine is programmed that it only cares about profits. It doesn’t care about all these nuances. And so, we call the act of the human being watching over the machine, we call this the human in the loop. So, whenever you automate something, you have to have to have a human being who’s standing by saying, “You know, I get that the data is saying this, I get that this is what we’re automating, but we really need to take a step back and have some difference of opinion here.”

And that is really, really important to consider when you are staffing projects or staffing departments, yes, you might be able to, in fact, automate something and have an algorithm perform the task, but you still need the humans in the loop for oversight. It’s very, very important. And so, United is a great example of that, but I think most people, at least in the U.S., are familiar with that, unfortunately for United. That was very bad for them. And I think we’re going to see, Pete, more of that kind of thing happening because automation is not being planned carefully enough.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so that’s intriguing in terms of some guidelines there, “Hey, the more that things require ethics, creativity, and judgment, the more we need a human presence, and the more it’s sort of like rote routine kind of repeat, repeat, repeat, that’s sort of the less we do.” So, could you kind of orient us to, I guess, there’s a lot of buzz with regard to some saying that automation is going to replace all these things, all these jobs are not going to exist. Like, what’s sort of the real fact-based in terms of some of the data and the stories pointing to, “Yes, right now, we are seeing these specific jobs disappearing at quick rates and these ones might be next”?

Alexandra Levit
Oh, I’m glad you asked that because there really is an important reality check here. And there’s been a lot of handwringing over the lost of jobs to machines. And when we look at it, it is something that we need to consider. But the numbers don’t really support that it’s happening in absolute crazy rates in all occupations.

So, for example, and a lot of consulting firms have done research on this, but I like the McKinsey research on it that says that about 60% of all occupations will be affected by automation in some shape or form. So, that means, chances are, two out of three, you will have automation touch your job. But, nevertheless, that’s not 100%. That’s still only 60%.

And then the other part of that is, of those 60% of jobs that are impacted, only about 30% of the tasks in that job will be automated, so that means that even if you’re within that 60%, you still have a whole bunch of things that you are going to be doing. So, you might have one task or two tasks that can be automated, but everything else you’re still going to be doing. And, therefore, your job isn’t going to disappear.

So, I think that’s a very, very important message that most jobs are not going to disappear entirely unless they are of the really rote routine factory-related jobs where you literally would stand there and put a widget on a conveyor belt. If you have that type of job, then you may have a problem. If you’re in the tech sector and you only know one program, for example, and that’s what you do, maybe you’re a database builder or something, and that’s all you do is build databases, and you don’t evolve your skillset, then you might have a problem.

So, it’s not just manufacturing and factory jobs, there are some knowledge-related jobs that could be impacted too. And that’s why, really, I encourage people strongly to take responsibility for upskilling and reskilling. Look at where your industry and where your job function are going and see the writing on the wall. And if you see that new software programs are starting to pick up steam, that things are getting automated, then you’re going to need to develop other skillsets, in particular, tech people who have not had to develop soft skills, like great communication, and ethics, and judgment, these soft skills that we’ve been talking about. Now is the time because those jobs are going to be in jeopardy.

The other thing though, Pete, is, yes, there are going to be certain jobs that will go away, as we talked about. It’s not as extreme as people say but it will happen. But what is also really, really important to remember is that there are going to be just as many jobs, if not more, created by technology. And there’s a couple of reasons for that. First of all, whenever you have a machine inserted into a process, we talked about the human in the loop, well, it’s not just one human. It’s somebody to design it, to build it, to figure out how to deploy it, to oversee it, to fix it when it’s broken. And, by the way, that last one, no one ever thinks about that. No one thinks about –

Pete Mockaitis
“Oh, reboot it. Oh, reboot it.”

Alexandra Levit
I mean, we just had that. I know. The more we rely on technology the more things are going to break and people are going to have to be able to fix it. So, these things are, really, a ton of jobs are going to be created. The other thing that’s really critical is that there are job categories that do not currently exist that will be created by technology. And, as an example, I always used to say, when I graduated from college, social media manager wasn’t a thing because social media wasn’t a thing. And now every department has its own social media person. Some entire firms are based on social media. So, that’s a good example that everyone is aware of.

And then, also, something that the importance cannot be overstated, somebody needs to explain what technology is doing to the rest of the human world, especially decision makers and leaders. So, those explainers, you need someone behind the technology who can actually, forgive me for using the word again, but to explain in very plain English what the technology is doing, how it came about the decision that it suggested, how did it work, kind of peering into the black box, if you will.

So, these are the types of jobs that will be created as a result of technology. And I think at the end of the day, we’re going to see really no net loss in human jobs. And we had the same concerns when the industrial revolution happened and when cars got on the road. Every time society changes, we worry about this, and it doesn’t happen because new jobs are created. So, overall, I think it’s a wonderful time for human employment. It’s probably the best time ever because we can really use our brains and do what we’re good at instead of doing things that are so boring and easy to repeatable.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, yeah. Boy, I like so much of what you said there not just because it’s happy news, but just because it’s kind of inspiring in the sense of, “Okay, there’s not much to fear with regard to this task being automated.” I think a whole another category of stuff is just that I think just about every human has a to-do list that’s longer than what they can do. And I’ve seen this now, so we’ve got sort of more staff now on this podcast. We got about three and a half people which is amazing.

Alexandra Levit
Awesome.

Pete Mockaitis
Thanks, listeners.

Alexandra Levit
Yeah, good for you.

Pete Mockaitis
And then plus me, and then plus contractors on top of that, so it’s growing. And, lo and behold, at first, I was kind of worried, I was like, “Oh, man, is that too many people? There are some exceptional talent, I didn’t want to like let go and sort not snap up and to have that work.” It’s like, “Oh, sure. There’s just all this stuff you haven’t been doing now we’re going to do. Let’s fix all these things that are suboptimal. Let’s go chase after these opportunities we haven’t chased after.”

So, I think that’s huge in and of itself in that the stuff that’s not getting done, that, “Oh, we’d kind of like to if we could get to it,” now we can get to it as well as opposed to a zero-sum game. Is it a job taken? There’s jobs to be done, if the machine is doing it, the human is not doing it, and the human is out of work, it’s like, “Well, no, there are more jobs to be done than there are humans to do them.” So, we got that going for us too.

Alexandra Levit
I think you’re right. And maybe if that was the case, maybe companies would be more strategic. Because, I have to tell you, when I go, and I’m a futurist, so I talk about future work and what organizations need to do to prepare, and when I go in, sometimes it’s so funny, people are like, “Well, you’re going to talk about flex work. Flex work isn’t futuristic.” It’s like, “Yeah, but are you doing it? And are you doing it well? I get that it doesn’t sound futuristic, but this is where organizations actually are,” and that’s that they’re behind. And so, my hope with what you’re saying is that maybe we won’t be so behind if we don’t have so much administrative work to do.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, totally. It’s like, “Hey, go figure out the flex work thing. We got a few hours to earn this week. Where does that happen?”

Alexandra Levit
Yeah, first, do that and then do these other things. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And I don’t know, if this is neither here nor there, but there have been surprises. When I really try to rock automation, sometimes I’m sort of disappointed by the results in terms of, “Okay, there’s all these, for instance, platforms and AI, whether it’s IBM, or Google, or others kind of doing their darndest to transcribe a human speech to text, and maybe your accuracy is not bad, 98% or something, but that still means that in one minute of speaking we’re going to have to correct three plus errors, and often I find it’s way more than that. It’s maybe five to 10 times that.

And then, in practice, when I sort of tried a hybrid approach, it’s sort of like my human transcribers who are aided by technology say, “Yeah, it’s a little bit faster but I’m kind of making a lot of concessions in terms of I wouldn’t type it that way, but I guess it’s fine, with regard to capitals or commas or whatever. And it’s a whole lot less fun and rewarding to correct a bunch of things a machine did than to do it myself.”

And so, I don’t know, I guess I am not as bullish in terms of, “Automation is going to replace everything!” It’s like, “Well, they can’t even get the transcript right right now, and maybe they’ll be better in five years,” but I don’t know, that’s me just complaining.

Alexandra Levit
Well, no, Pete, I think that’s a great example of what we’re talking about earlier, and that’s that this isn’t going to happen as fast as people think. If we’re still dealing with transcription, especially transcription has been around for 25 years, in automated transcription. I remember when I first came out of college using a tool for that.

So, it’s just not going to happen as fast and things are not going to be as smooth. So, just like you’re experiencing, but on a wider scale. And, again, as we rely on more and more on technology for our everyday life, and we don’t know how to do things without technology, I think we’re going to be pretty hard up because then we’re helpless. And that is something that I actually get concerned about.

There’s a couple things that keep me up at night, and that’s one of them, that, all of sudden, we’re just not going to know to do anything because we’re reliant on technology for everything. So, I hope that doesn’t happen but I am concerned for sure.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, let’s talk then about the things that humans do well. You’ve highlighted six in particular uniquely human skills. And just thinking about it from the perspective of the listener, if we’re professionals, and we want to make sure that our knowledge-working careers are long and rewarding and fruitful and growing, and we note that technology evolution is sure, a real thing that’s happening, what are the skills we can nail to just be kind of bulletproof with regard to all this?

Alexandra Levit
Well, there are a few, and, of course, I talk about some of the softer ones, like having judgment, having intuition, having interpersonal sensitivity in problem solving, having empathy. I talk about those in Humanity Works but I’d like to highlight one in particular here because I think it relates to a lot of what we’ve been talking about, and that’s applied technology skills.

So, what that means is, I’m a part of a non-profit organization called the Career Advisory Board. It was established by DeVry way back in 2010. And what we’ve been looking at is, “Where are the really biggest skills gaps between what hiring managers are looking for and what people are bringing to the table?” And, not surprisingly, we identified this category of applied technology skills which are skills that help you use people, processes, data, and devices to make better business calls, better decisions.

And it means that not necessarily do you need to know how to program yourself, for example, but you need to know that software is out there and available to help you do your job better. So, you need to know what technology is feasible, and you need to know how to employ that technology, and how to make sure that it’s managed seamlessly, and how to do change management in your organization when you’re trying to roll out a new technology. So, these are applied technology skills, and every single person who works in the business world for the foreseeable future, needs to have these.

And why this so important is, traditionally, the people who focus on technology were in the IT group. Nobody else had to worry about it. And that is changing rapidly. Now, we have line of business, managers and all kinds of people involved in what technology should be rolled out, what application should be developed, what software should be deployed. And that is really an area where I think most people are going be caught completely off guard, that they are not marketable unless they have a really good handle on the technology that’s being used in their function, in their industry, and what’s really cutting edge, what are the top organizations doing.

And no one has really thought about this, if you’re not in IT. And that is, I think, going to be a steep learning curve. Unfortunately, for organizations, applied tech absolutely can be taught but it needs to be re-taught over and over again because, if you think about it, Pete, it’s going to change the technology over like one or two years.

Pete Mockaitis
It really has, yeah.

Alexandra Levit
So, it’s not an easy thing to do but it has to be done internally and people have to take responsibility for doing it on their own as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think that I’m just really coming to terms with that notion right there in terms of I think even just with this podcast, about a little over three years old now, it’s sort of like the stuff that was available when I started is completely different than what is available now.

Alexandra Levit
Right. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
And then even like application by application, it’s sort of like, “Oh, I heard that wasn’t any good.” And then their teams are iterating away on the thing. And then a year later, it’s like, “No, actually, that tool is perfectly usable now so you should certainly check it out again.” It’s a different landscape every year or two.

And so then, what are some of your pro tips in terms of, okay, the professional who wants to be ahead of the curve and be sharp with that, how does one acquire that knowledge in terms of just kind of regular daily, weekly practices to stay on top of stuff?

Alexandra Levit
Well, I think reading is kind of an unsexy but smart thing to do. Read not just IT publications, although you might think that that’s the place to go, but actually just reading like a Fast Company is really cool because they talk about technology a lot and they talk about different functions that are adopting different types of AI and different types of technology.

I think taking a crash course in data analytics can’t hurt anyone. I did this myself. I was talking so much about data analytics, which is one of the applied technology skills that we found that organizations are really clamoring for, and I realized I didn’t really know what I was talking about. So, I went and I took a free course from IBM on what is data analytics, what are some of the top software programs you use to do it, what does it tell you, etc. And I now know a little bit more. I could get more in deep in it, and may still, if it’s going to be relevant to what I continue to talk about and do.

But I think that the advantage today is that there’s really no excuse for not acquiring a skill because there are so many options. You don’t have to wait for your company to teach you. Organizations are kind of getting with the program in that they’re collating a bunch of online resources for their people, they’re partnering with websites like Degree.com to give their people certifications for different skill areas.

I see this movement is definitely happening here. But you don’t have to rely on your company being smart with this. You can be listening to this podcast today and say, “Oh, actually, I don’t even know what data analytics even is. It’s a buzzword, that’s all I know.” And you could go and find the IBM course yourself, and I think it was like an hour.

And I’ve got all the background that I need for now and just being to talk intelligently with your team about how that might be employed or if it’s already being employed. How is the data being collected? Is it integrated properly? Is it valid? These are all the important things. What programs are you using to look at it? And what decisions can you make as a result of looking at it? So, I think it’s easy to do, or at least easier than it ever was before.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, applied technology skills, data analytics is one. And what are the other big ones?

Alexandra Levit
Well, I think being able to program applications, application development. And the good news there is that, again, you used to have to program apps, you would have to know a lot of code, and you would have to be trained in that. And, now, just like you used to have to know HTML in order to build a website, and now you don’t. You also can get a software program that can help you build apps.

And what we see happening now in a lot of organizations is they realize that an app will help their customers, will help their workers, and so you’ll have one function working with IT to build that app out and it will come from the line of business as opposed to coming from IT, and that is a huge change. So, app dev, data analytics, an understanding of infrastructure, digital infrastructure, digital transformation, so what it means to move everything from a manual process to a digital process, and what’s involved in that.

Change management, I mentioned this briefly earlier, is not an applied technology skill, but it’s what I call an adjacent skill area, where if you’ve got applied technology skills and you’re working with technology, you’re going to need to do change management effectively because research from everywhere, essentially, has shown that between 60% and 90% of change initiatives involving technology fail because users don’t want to adopt it, it’s too difficult, it doesn’t integrate, it breaks, etc. So, you really have to be strategic about it. You can’t just roll it out and expect that everyone is going to say, “Yay, it’s new technology.” So, that’s an adjacent skill area that, if you have applied tech, you’re going to need to develop as well.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So, that’s a nice line up. Well, a quick follow up there. So, where do I go if I want to develop applications without knowing any code? That sounds appealing.

Alexandra Levit
Well, I can say it because I don’t work with this organization anymore, but I learned so much about app dev when I was working with QuickBase as a spokesperson for them. And that’s an example of a software program that allows you to build apps without knowing code.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, nifty. And so, I guess there’s things like, well, hey, one of our sponsors, iDashboards, is handy with regard to looking at all of the stuff without having to know code to make it all display beautifully for you there.

Alexandra Levit
And to prop them up even more. Dashboards are critical for getting all your data in one place and being able to analyze the whole of it instead of looking at it in silos. So, having a dashboard for whatever function you’re running it from, I tend to focus mainly on HR systems, but having that view of everything and having it be easy to read, and, again, you can translate it for other decision-makers and produce reports and statistics. Very, very powerful. So, if you don’t have one of those tools, and, Pete, they don’t pay me to say this, but, seriously, as a futurist, you need to have that view of your technology and your data in one place.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. So, there’s a bundle of applied technology skills that are great to know to be sort of bulletproof with the future of stuff. And, now, let’s talk about some of those uniquely human skills. You’ve got leadership, team, creativity, innovation, judgment, intuition. I think that in a way it’s almost easy to brush these aside, like “Yes, of course, these are important and we all need to have them.” But what have you found are some of the sort of best practices for a professional to adopt to keep one or more of these skills sharper and sharper week after week?

Alexandra Levit
This is a great question and it’s something everybody needs to be focusing on. And I would’ve said 25 years ago that you need to be focusing on these things. And I think the most successful people in business have always focused on these skills. The difference is now it’s essential because you can’t skate by on being able to do a task anymore. You have to have those unique human elements that will set you apart from a machine.

And my favorite example, I actually talk about it in Humanity Works, this is absolutely my favorite example was what happened in Japan when they tried to roboticize their nursing. They did exactly what you’re talking about, Pete. They said, “Really, what do we really need human nurses for? Like, this is what our nurses need to do.” This is seriously what happened. Japan had a labor shortage in nursing, they didn’t know how to get more humans, so they’re like, “We’ll build a robot. It’ll be cool.”

So, they built a robot, they called it ROBEAR, was six feet tall, and essentially what ROBEAR ended up being able to do was serve food, move people in and out of bed, and do some of these rote physical tasks that nurses do. But Japan had to learn the hard way, “Oh, my God, like our human nurses do things like they come into a room, and they look into a patient’s eyes, and within a second or two they’re able to ascertain the level of pain that they’re in. They can walk into a difficult clinical situation and be able to, in their mind, assemble a group of experts from the hospital that they need to come in and solve the problem. They can sit down with a patient relative, who just got a difficult diagnosis, and sit with them and care for them and show empathy toward them.”

And these are all things that were kind of, as you’re saying, overlooked and became critical when, all of a sudden, they had this robot that couldn’t do any of that. So, most jobs, and this is what I said, this is not just a nursing thing, most jobs have these components. There are very few jobs where you don’t need to have any interpersonal skills and, in fact, some jobs are gaining the need for certain interpersonal skills.

My favorite example that I came across recently is in the supply chain, where in the supply chain it used to be a lot more, I don’t know, it was global in nature, it was less personal the way that it was rolled out in many organizations. And, now, what we’re seeing in the supply chain is it’s actually becoming more local and more regional and more relationship-based.

So, you might’ve been a logistics coordinator in the past and not really had to interact with other people too much. Now, you do. And so, that’s an example of an occupation where if you don’t have those interpersonal skills now, maybe you didn’t need them in the past, but you’re going to need them as we move forward. The world, in a way, is going to become smaller, not larger, as people crave that human touch.

And every time I’ve seen technology rolled out, it’s always got this high-tech, high-touch component. Everyone talks about that. It’s like, “It’s got to be high-tech, but we’ve also got to have high-touch because our employees, for example, don’t just want to go through onboarding where they’re in a portal, they take courses, their little avatar tells them where they need to be and who they need to meet.”

They want their manager to show them care and concern also. They want their peers to come by and say, “Let’s go to lunch.” This is never going to go away. And so, you have to include that stuff whenever you are implementing a new technology. And so, therefore, the people who are in jobs are going to need to have those skills.

Pete Mockaitis
So, we’ve got to have them, and no matter what. I’m with you there. And so, how do we keep them sharp?

Alexandra Levit
Yes, so how we keep them sharp, my favorite course in the entire world, I took it way back in 2000 but I’d still recommend it highly, is the Dale Carnegie course. I learned so much about how to be an effective human. It was unbelievable.

I learned how to be diplomatic, how to compromise, how to get people who you have no authority over to collaborate with you, how to change somebody’s attitude, how to combat anger and frustration in people, how to manage my own. It just goes on and on and on. And if your organization has a program like Dale Carnegie, or has Dale Carnegie, please take advantage of it.

I got to take that course for free and I can say that it shaped my entire career after that. It probably is the single most important thing I ever did for my own development. And those kind of courses are everywhere. If you want some additional suggestions, I can either, and people can email me, or you can even just do a web search for interpersonal skills. All of the massive open online course providers, like Coursera and edX and Udemy, they have courses on interpersonal skills that you can take, and empathy.

And, again, like all the other skills we’re talking about, these are relatively easy to get your hands on for either low or no cost. So, the first thing I recommend to people is see what your company offers because you might as well get it paid for. And if it doesn’t offer something, then create your own curriculum, it’s something that I tell people about all skills that they need to develop. It’s like, “Figure what’s going to keep you marketable and then make a plan to get those skills.”

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And I think it’s kind of fun. I sort of enjoyed the charting your own course and choosing your own adventure in terms of, “Okay, Amazon, let’s see. What do you got in terms of books on this subject?” And then often you see there’s a couple standouts, like, “Holy smokes, this one has 2,000 reviews and is apparently the book about the subject. I guess I’ll read that one.” As well as, “Oh, and this one just looks like a lot of fun. Oh, and I can listen to this one by using audio.”

Alexandra Levit
Yup, that’s right.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, I think it’s kind of fun to, as you said, to think about creating or designing your own curriculum. And I don’t know where I read this, but I think it’s true. It’s like if you read the top five books in a field that you will know more about that field than like 90% plus of the people working in that field and just look like a genius.

And I’ve had someone on the show, and they mentioned, “Boy, whenever I had to pick up a new challenge, that’s what I did, and people were like, ‘Wow, this guy know so much about this area.’ It’s like, ‘No, I’m new. I just read the books before I started.’”

Alexandra Levit
That doesn’t surprise me at all, Pete. It really doesn’t. And they say it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert about something. I don’t know about that. Maybe to become like a world-class, like the top person to do something.

Pete Mockaitis
Right, like a violinist, yeah.

Alexandra Levit
I think you’re right. And I’ve done that too. I didn’t start off being an expert in all the things I talk about either. And with my first book, They Don’t Teach Corporate in College, literally, all I did was research a book about good traits to develop to become an effective professional, and I used Dale Carnegie and some of the other things.

And the second I published that book in 2004, there was no other book like it at the time, all of a sudden, I was considered an expert. And I’m like, you know, I’m really not an expert. I’m just a 27-year old kid who had a hard time and did some research and put together a book. But it’s amazing, like when you have a book or you read a book, it really is going to give you a surprising platform to talk about.

And I think you’re absolutely right. And the good news is there’s a lot of great stuff out there. And I still like the classics, Dale Carnegie, and of course Stephen Covey, who I had the fortune to be mentored by a few years ago before his death.

Pete Mockaitis
No kidding. You had one-on-one time with Stephen Covey?

Alexandra Levit
I did. I did. It was so awesome. He’s so great and he really gave me a lot of great advice and great exposure, etc. But his 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, that was written decades and decades ago, and it still applies. And that’s the thing about these human skills, right? They are the human skills that don’t change, and the things that we struggle with don’t change either. So, we have to be mindful of both.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s so powerful because I think of Stephen Covey, one of the words that leaps to mind is timeless. And we’ve interviewed a few FranklinCovey executives on the program and they’re all great so it lives on.

Alexandra Levit
It does.

Pete Mockaitis
And I think it gave me kind of a chuckle out of we’re talking about sort of the future and technology and automation, and what’s the answer? Read some books. And so that’s good. But maybe you can zoom into is there any kind of key memory moment sentence that Stephen Covey shared with you that really left an imprint in particular?

Alexandra Levit
He talked to me about, and I know this is in the book too, he talked to me about time management. And, at the time, when I met him, I was struggling a lot with I basically had three things I wanted to do in my life. I was working as a VP in PR, I wanted to get my business off the ground, and I wanted to have a baby. And I didn’t know how to do all of those things. And so, we talked about how I could prioritize the things that were the most important.

And so, thanks to his leadership and mentorship, I was able to decide I’m going to let the PR job go even though this was kind of risky because that was my primary source of income. I knew I had enough income from the business, and I knew I wanted to stay home with my son a little bit to see how I liked being a mom, and I knew I won’t be able to do everything.

And so, he really solidified in me the sense of balance and the sense of you’ve got to prioritize the things that are important to you, and you have to do it young. I’m so glad that I met him when I did, and I’m so glad that when I was 27, 28, I was putting the pieces in place to make a life possible where, to this day, my kids are 8 and a half and 11 and a half, I still have a lot of time with them and a lot of flexibility to do what I need to get done because of the way that I’ve structured my career. And so, I really have Stephen to thank for that in large part.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s awesome. Well, tell me, anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things?

Alexandra Levit
I don’t think so.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Well, then let’s go. How about a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Alexandra Levit
Henry David Thoreau for sure, “March confidently in the direction of your dreams and you’ll meet with unexpected success.” Just always go after what it is you want especially in this world where the opportunities are there now. We aren’t stuck in certain occupations. There’s more movement even within an organization than it ever used to be. So, if there’s a skill you want to develop, if there’s something you want to learn, if there’s a type of work you want to do, go figure out a way to do it even if you don’t get paid for it. Our lives are going to be about the pursuit of meaning. And so, that’s why I like that quote from Mr. Thoreau.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite study, or experiment, or bit of research?

Alexandra Levit
Well, I like psychological experiments. I was a psych major in college, and so I like some of those famous experiments where they’ve shown the bystander effect, I find fascinating, where if there’s an emergency, if you don’t put somebody in charge of solving the problem, everyone will just kind of stand there. And I see that happening in corporations every day as we speak, so that was an interesting one from social psychology.

We’re talking about human skills. I like the study with the rhesus monkeys where a rhesus monkey was given a cloth mother to love, and that monkey did better than a monkey that didn’t have any love at all. So, even having a fake monkey to love was something because all beings need love and affection. And I think we can’t automate everything because then we won’t have that.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite book?

Alexandra Levit
My favorite book right now is actually Ayn Rand’s The Fountainhead and I know that that’s politically charged so maybe I don’t want to say too much about it, but it’s about the pursuit of individualism, and I just find it fascinating.

And one thing that I’ve been trying to do lately, especially in the last three years since the election, is understand the other side, and understand where people are coming from, and what values and what ideals are at work to lead people to think a certain way. And so, I do feel that that book is one that I read recently and I’m glad that I did.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite tool?

Alexandra Levit
A favorite tool. QuickBooks. For accounting it has been a godsend, a lifesaver. And unlike some of the technology that you and I talked about, Pete, for a small business, it’s so easy to use. It makes it so I don’t have to spend tens of thousands of dollars on my accounting every year and taxes, and it’s so easy. It’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite habit?

Alexandra Levit
My favorite habit lately is meditation. I meditate every night before bed for 30 minutes. I find that it really helps me sleep much better. It helps me be clear-headed in the morning. And, overall, I think it’s a nice thing to do. It kind of stops the situation where your mind is racing, you’re trying to sleep and you can’t calm down. It’s been great and I hope I keep it forever.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget that you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks, you hear them quote it back to you often?

Alexandra Levit
The biggest nugget that I’ve been sharing for 15 years, so, They Don’t Teach Corporate in College is the book that was published 15 years ago, it was my first book, and it’s the book that is going to be re-published in fourth edition in September, and the thing that people always talk about is that it doesn’t matter what you do, it’s who knows what you do, and do they value it.

And this perception is reality thing is something that really hit me hard when I was a young professional because I thought just churning out work like there was no tomorrow would be enough. I didn’t really care about what people thought about me. I just wanted to do a good job. But part of doing a good job is caring what people think about you and making sure that they have the right impression of you.

And that is something that people come back over and over and over again. It is so gratifying when people who are like 40 come to me and say, “I read your book when I was 25, and it changed the course of my career.” And, usually, they’ll mention something, really, it’s what I call the professional persona or the mature confident face that you project to the work world and the impression you try to get people of you. So, that’s probably the most common.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I think we have to have a couple sentences on the professional persona. This is so valuable. What’s the story there?

Alexandra Levit
The professional persona is the mature confident and together face that you present to the work world. And there’s a lot of talk recently, Pete, about bringing yourself to work and being your whole self. And I think that you can be the best version of yourself at work, and it’s not necessarily the version that you would share when you’re out for drinks with your friends on Friday night, or when you’re goofing off with your family around the Thanksgiving table.

It’s the more professional version of yourself, and I think you always have to be buttoned up, a little bit concerned about what comes out of your mouth, and what you’re displaying online, that shows who you are, and you just want your organization to be proud to have you as an employee and not have anything detract from that impression.

Pete Mockaitis
And this is a lightbulb for people in terms of like…? Tell me about that.

Alexandra Levit
I think, yes, especially for young people who they’ve been brought up to believe that they are unique and special, and that their perspective should be valued, and that they should be able to be themselves at work. And, again, I think, to some degree, that’s true. But the reality is that business operates in a certain way, it still does, and you have to be mindful of the culture of your organization, and people don’t think about that. It doesn’t even occur to them. They go in, they’re themselves, and sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn’t. And for me it didn’t, which is how I learned about all this.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Alexandra Levit
People should be awesome at their jobs by looking ahead to future work trends, what is going to be necessary in your field, in your industry, and how you are going to get skills so that you are gainfully employed in the next three years, six years, nine years, even the next two decades, and how can you plan ahead. What kind of life do you want? And how can you get there? And you’re going to put yourself in a position to be the most effective person in a certain job. So, even if some of the jobs disappear, you’re still going to be at the top because you’ve got the best skillset.

Pete Mockaitis
Alexandra, this has been lots of fun. I wish you and the book Humanity Works tons of luck and keep up the good work.

Alexandra Levit
Thank you so much. It was great to be here, Pete. And I’ll see you next time.

Mar 12
0

272: How to Learn New Skills with Treehouse’s Ryan Carson

By | Podcasts | 2 Comments

 

 

Ryan Carson says: "If you're willing to do a little bit of work and look a little bit dumb, there is nothing you can't achieve."

Treehouse founder and CDO Ryan Carson shares lessons learned from helping thousands of professionals pick up new skills. We talk about the proper mental state, being realistic about your calendar, and how new confidence emerges.

You’ll Learn:

  1. The number one thing that stops people from learning
  2. How to embrace the discomfort that comes from learning
  3. Just how long it takes to learn coding, anyhow

About Ryan 

Ryan Carson is the CEO and Founder of Treehouse, where their mission is to bring effective, valuable and accessible technology education to everyone so they can change their lives and change the world.

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Ryan Carson Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Ryan, thanks so much for joining us here on the How To Be Awesome At Your Job podcast.

Ryan Carson
It’s an honor. I cannot wait to chat.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, me, too. So I’ve been looking forward to this one for a while. And I see in your fun fact you mentioned that you are an Eagle Scout. I’d love to know, is that something that comes in handy frequently, or any interesting stories or significance here?

Ryan Carson
It’s funny because I had kind of forgotten I was an Eagle Scout for a large part of my life. I moved to England for 12 years, and people don’t even start campfires in England, so my Boy Scout skills are not really needed. And then I came back to America, and I have two amazing boys, and I thought, “You know, we should maybe try to get into Boy Scout and we’ll see.”

And so we went, and I went to the meeting, and I said, “You know, I was an Eagle Scout,” I kind of whispered it. And the Scout Master looked at me and he kind of stood up straight, and he said, “Ryan, you are an Eagle Scout.” And it just made me smile, you know, I just thought that was great. So it’s just fun knowing, “Gosh, I know how to start fires and survive.”

I don’t love kind of the sad part of how Boy Scouts are kind of ended up on the side of some political issues. It makes me a little sad, but I love the organization, an idea of integrity and hard work and being kind, and all those kind of things. So I’m glad I did it. My dad made me finish to be an Eagle Scout really. He kind of said, “Ryan, you’re going to finish this whether you want to or not.” So I’m thankful to my dad.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, yeah, I had my brother’s dog for a little while with the project, but all is well that ends well.

Ryan Carson
Oh, well. You know, a good hustle.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now, I’m embarrassed to say I don’t remember if he finished it or…I’m pretty sure he did. I think he is an Eagle Scout, present tense.

Ryan Carson
That’s just, to me, that’s just sad. I feel sad for him.

Pete Mockaitis
There’s a lot of thing on your brother. I wasn’t keeping tabs as much.

Ryan Carson
That’s okay. I won’t blame you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so now, speaking of outdoor things, or maybe not at all, so you are the CEO and co-founder of a business called Treehouse. Now, do you make treehouses or what are you about there?

Ryan Carson
Sometimes I wish we did. But, no, we’re an online school, and our students are adults who are looking to change their lives by learning how to code. So we have 80,000 enrolled students, so we’ve gotten kind of big. I’ve been working on it for eight years, and I love my job. I kind of skip to work every day.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s cool. Well, so now, I want to dig deep into this learn to code business as well as kind of learning and skill acquisition even more broadly. But, first, I’m little curious, when it comes to sort of educational opportunities or where learning happens, you have a point of view which I find very intriguing, in that you say that you call the question, “Where do you go to school?” a cruel and dangerous one. What’s the story here?

Ryan Carson
Yeah, this really struck me a couple of weeks ago. So the whole premise of Treehouse is founded upon my experience, which was I was very privileged, I had this amazing family that encouraged me to go to college. When I was in college I studied computer science which is an amazing pick because there’s just a million jobs. And I did that.

And then I left college and I got my first job, and I realized, “I did not need my computer science degree to do that job.” It was like getting an electrical engineering degree to be an electrician. It’s just not needed. Coding and making apps is not computer science. For the most part it’s a trade skill. And it just struck me, “Something is really wrong here.”

All these people are going to college and spending a huge amount of money and getting a job that you don’t need the degree, something is not right, and it bugged me. So, fast-forward about five years later, I decided, “I want to try to solve that problem and see if I can give people the skills to get a job without all the expense of a college degree.” And I’m not anti-college, I’m just pro person, right? You know, I want someone to be able to get a job so they can support their family without student debts. So, began this journey.

Now, fast-forward to 2018, we’ve got tens of thousands of students, and we’ve made a lot of progress in giving people the skills to get a job. And I was having a conversation with a woman at an event, and she said, “You know what, I was an executive assistant, I don’t have a college degree, and it was really hard to get above the administrative role. Every time I try to get out of that job and do an operational role, they would ask me what my degree was or where I went to school.”

And she said, “It’s worse than that. Everyone that I run into at work, when they’re kind of looking for something to say to make small talk, they say, ‘Hey, so where did you go to school?’” And she’s like, “I didn’t go to school. I don’t have a degree.” And this would happen once a day.

Pete Mockaitis
I hear you.

Ryan Carson
And I just thought, “You know, that is a brutal kind of statement that none of us even realize was hurting people.” And I think we need to unwind this idea that you need to go to college to be successful and that you’re less of a person if you haven’t done that.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, thank you. That’s a great perspective in terms of, “Hey, what’s the person, on the receiving end of that question, think and feel if they didn’t go to school?” Or if they went to a school that maybe has less, I don’t know, prestige or selectivity, then the predominant school in the room, you know.

Ryan Carson
Right. Right. Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
“Hey, I went to Notre Dame. Where did you go?” “Oh, I went to Northeastern something state, something.” It’s like, “Oh.”

Ryan Carson
“Oh.”

Pete Mockaitis
You know?

Ryan Carson
Right. Or a community college, “Oh.” And none of it is fair, and none of it maps to reality. I mean, we’re doing this interview, I haven’t asked you what your degree is. It doesn’t matter. And I’ve had very few conversations in my professional life where it’s at all relevant. It’s all about, “What is your work?” You know, I wanted to be on this podcast because of your work. And I think we need to change the conversation. We should just care about what people have done and if their behaviors are correct. So I’m excited to help unlock that.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, that’s cool and it’s great that you’re out there and you are creating opportunity for folks to do the advancement in that realm by acquiring the trade skill of coding. So I’d love to get your take, then. I imagine with 80,000 students, you’ve learned a thing or two about what makes people successful when they are setting out to learn something or acquire some new skills. So I’d love it if you could share some of the most actionable takeaway tidbits that would be helpful for listeners who are trying to learn some new stuff or pick up some extra skills. What are some do’s and don’ts?

Ryan Carson
You bet. The very first one is a mental exercise. So the number one thing that stops people from learning how to code is not math skill, it’s not analytical skill; it is mental state of mind. And what I mean by that is most people will say, “Okay, I’ve heard coding is exciting. I’ve heard there’s 1.3 million jobs. I’ve heard that these jobs pay $90,000 or more. I want in.”

And so they try it. And then they get a little bit of way in, and then they think, “Gosh, I don’t know if I can do this. All these people in the industry are, they seem really advanced and they all seem like they know what they’re doing. And I just can’t see myself doing that.” And so, they quit. And it has nothing to do with their capability, the amount of time they have, or their financial ability to pay for school. It’s everything to do with whether their mind says they can.

So what you need to do is envision yourself actually in that job. And it sounds kind of hokey but it’s important to write it down and say, “I am going to be a web developer, a mobile developer, a coder in 12 months’ time. And I’m going to be sitting on a desk, in a beautiful tech company, earning $70,000, $80,000, $90,000, and I’m going to be successful,” and plant that flag mentally.

I really believe in our mind’s ability to either unlock or close doors. So that’s where you start, actually envision yourself doing it.

Pete Mockaitis
So doing it. Now maybe it’s acquiring the role, maybe it’s doing the thing that you feel like you maybe can’t do right now, but, “Hey, I will be communicating confidently to groups of senior executives,” or, “I will be at a cool tech company and do my thing.” So, all right. So you envision it and your write it down, you stake it with a flag in your mind, so that’s sort of step one to give you a bit of resilience against the, “Oh, I don’t know if I could do this.” So, then, what else?

Ryan Carson
And then the idea is you have to accept that there’s going to be a consistent level of daily work involved, and you’re not going to want to do it all the time. It’s very similar to working out. So to go through any sort of learning transformation it’ll feel like going to the gym where it’s kind of exciting and fun for about seven days, and then you realize, “Gosh, this is hard work. And, you know, my kids are having trouble right now in school. I’m just going to set this aside and focus on that,” or, “Gosh, work is kind of crazy. I’ll come back to this.” And you have to tell yourself, at a time, “I’m going to want to quit.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yes.

Ryan Carson
And so when I say that to myself, “I want to quit,” you say, “I knew I was going to say that, and I’m not going to do it. And I’m going to commit to just doing another day. So I’m going to spend another hour tomorrow, and that’s all I’m going to commit to. And then I spend an hour tomorrow, and then I’m going to commit to another hour the next day.”

So it really is a marathon that you run kind of a step at a time and commit to taking the next step and that’s it. I think those are two of the keys to actually transform your life whether it comes to learning coding, or becoming an executive, or selling something, or transforming your body. It really is astonishing what we can do if we get over our mind’s roadblocks.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. I really like that. Thank you. So those are some sort of foundational cornerstones with regard to setting the groundwork for persistence and making it happen. So I’d like to get your thoughts for, then, in the moment when you’re trying to learn something, to build a skill you don’t have yet, are there any great perspectives in terms of doing the learning best?

Ryan Carson
Yes, so I would say you need to take your calendar and block it off. So what you want to do is be very realistic about the time you can spend. So look at the next seven days and actually schedule in little blocks for learning. And you have to be really realistic about it. Don’t do it at the end of the day when you’re going to be exhausted. Don’t do it when you’re supposed to be making the kids’ lunches. You have be really realistic.

And the first thing I’d suggest is getting up earlier. I have been waking up at 4:30 a.m. now for over a year, and it’s been transformational in my ability to deliver. And so if you can’t find time the rest of the day, just try getting up half an hour earlier, and you’ll be surprised you can do it. And then use that time and focus. And then when you’re done, say, “I did it for today. I’m just going to commit to doing it tomorrow.” So it’s a really tactical thing.

The other tactical thing is you have to recall what you’ve learned and then use it to build something. So if you’re watching a video about something, you have to take notes and kind of engage. But then the immediate next thing you need to do is stop watching the video and actually take that knowledge and then reform it in a new way.

So think about it like Lego. So you get a bunch of Lego and you pick up a piece of Lego, that’s like learning, and then you pick up another piece. You feel like you’re learning but you’re just kind of picking up pieces. What you need to do is actually take those things and build something with it. And there’s an actual chemical process in your brain where synapses are formed when you take that knowledge and you use it to build something new.

And it’s really uncomfortable. It actually feels like working out. It’s not nice, like, “I don’t really know what I’m doing here. I thought I learned something but I’m trying to use what I learned but I feel like I don’t know what to do.” That’s where you’re actually learning, and you want to embrace that uncomfortable feeling because that is actually learning and that means you’re making progress.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so I’m intrigued. I guess, now, if it’s a coding situation, you know, oh, man, I’m thinking back to my youth. I did a few BASIC, just a smidge.

Ryan Carson
Nice. Nice. Impressive.

Pete Mockaitis
And so I’m thinking, “Okay, I learned like what an “if” statement does.”

Ryan Carson
Nice.

Pete Mockaitis
So, “Okay, I learned that but I read it from a book or something,” and then you’re saying recall it like use it in some format. And so I would just maybe try to put that in there. So, I guess I’m curious, if we’re talking about sort of non-tech skills like, let’s say, I learned, well, hey, on this podcast we had a guest who said you can calm your nerves before speaking by holding a cold bottle of water or something. That’s something I learned.

Ryan Carson
Right. Piece of knowledge.

Pete Mockaitis
So you’re saying I should go for it and do that right away. Or what do I do?

Ryan Carson
Sort of. So I think another skill that I learned is selling. So I didn’t think I was good at selling things, it made me uncomfortable, I didn’t like it. And then I thought, “You know what, I bet I can learn how to do this.” And so I watched a couple of videos for how to sell things. Okay, you have to identify a target, you have to write a pitch, you have to be consistent, etc. etc.

And then the video stopped and said, “Okay, now you actually have to go write your own pitch for your own product and try to pick some people to sell it to.” So you go from like imagining the work to actually doing the work, and you’ll feel really terrible at it because you don’t know what you’re doing. And most people quit at that moment because they say, “I’m terrible at this.” And that’s the whole point, you are terrible at it and that’s why you’re learning, and that’s why you’re practicing. And you can’t get good at it unless you get through that terrible part.

I’m a fan of a guy named Ryan Holiday who wrote a book called Ego Is the Enemy. And one of the phrases he says all the time is, “The obstacle is the way.” And so getting through that uncomfortable period where you’re writing that pitch, and it seems terrible, and you think someone is going to laugh at you if you send it to them, that’s the most important. That is the way. The obstacle is the way.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. So you write a terrible pitch, and what do you do next?

Ryan Carson
Then you send it and you’ll probably get laughed at.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Ryan Carson
And knowing that that’s going to happen, again, is part of the process. So coding is another good example. So you’re going to learn a bit of code, and you’re going to make a very simple website, and then you’re going to put it on the internet, and you’re going to be ashamed of it. And that is the process. Then you do it again, and you do it again, and you do it again until eventually you realize, “Actually, I kind of know what I’m doing here.”

And then what we actually encourage people to do to get in the tech industry is not to learn everything and then go apply for a job. We say, “Learn and build, and learn and build, and then build for a friend for free.” So go to a local butcher shop and say, “Can I make your website for free?” and that’ll be uncomfortable and scary but it’s free, so, hey, what’s the worst that can happen?

You do it and they go, “Oh, it’s okay. Thanks.” And then you go to another shop, the florist, and you say, “Can I build a website for you for $100?” And they’re like, “Meh, it’s still pretty cheap. Sure.” And you do it and then you realize, “Oh, I just got paid to this.” So you’re building up your confidence slowly. And then you just keep doing that and raising your prices and raising your prices, and eventually you are a web designer, a web developer, and it was through that uncomfortable process. So I think that’s applicable to almost anything.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, it’s so funny. I’m thinking, I’d love a free developer right about now.

Ryan Carson
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
If anyone is listening.

Ryan Carson
Hit us up. I mean, but that is the door. If you’re willing to do a little bit of work and look a little bit dumb, there is nothing you can’t achieve.

Pete Mockaitis
Ooh, there you go. That feels like a pulled quote, Ryan.

Ryan Carson
It’s true, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Ryan Carson
It’s one of the essences of life. I mean, I have two boys, and I say this over and over to them. You know, they’ll say something like, “Dad, I can’t shoot a basket. I can’t make it.” And I’m like, “Well, it’s because you haven’t practiced. No one gets good at anything unless they practice.” And it’s the same with getting a job, getting a speaking gig, getting a raise. It’s amazing what we can do if we’re willing to do the work and look a little dumb during the process.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I like that. Well, so, Ryan, this is a tricky point here in the midst of this. Now, at the same time, I think we, as varied human beings, have kind of different levels of aptitude or the levels to which this stuff come, a given thing comes naturally to one versus another, you know, multiple intelligences and all that. So, in a way, that’s kind of a dangerous idea because it can lull you into maybe some fixed mindset territory or you say, “Oh, well, I’m just not good at that.”

So, I guess, I hear that it’s dangerous to give too much credence to that belief but, nonetheless, there are some variations in our aptitude for stuff where there’s a lot of good research suggesting that you’ll get great results to the extent that you focus in on your strengths. So how do you navigate some of that tricky water?

Ryan Carson
Yeah, that is hard. I think that sphere of what we’re talking about here, there is kind of general skills that relate to getting a job, or being successful at work, or becoming well-known in your hobby. I think, in general, aptitude is a very small indicator of success. I believe it’s mostly about hard work and discipline. I think we way overcount natural skill or aptitude.

Now, there’s a certain reality here, right? So, as a skinny white guy, am I going to be successful in the NBA? No, my genetics just are not going to allow me to be very successful there. I should probably not try to spend 10,000 hours becoming the best basketball player in the world. But I could. I could try. But I think, though, with knowledge work, there really isn’t a limit.

If you’re blessed and lucky to have normal cognitive ability and just a normal IQ, I think you can do almost anything. I really do. And I think that’s very empowering so I just want to encourage people. Everyone who has done something amazing started off knowing nothing, and they didn’t know what they were doing. So take heart, it’s possible. And I don’t want to be cheesy about it. It’s not easy but it is possible.

Pete Mockaitis
I guess I’m thinking a little bit in the realm of, you know, if let’s say we have a hundred folks go to town trying to learn JavaScript with your world-class learning tool somewhere in Treehouse, you know.

Ryan Carson
Thank you.

Pete Mockaitis
Or I assume, I haven’t checked it out myself in great detail firstly, but in due time maybe. And so, now, it seems like folks are going to get a different level of distance or relative mastery than one another, and in some ways, hey, comparisons are odious, you know, compare and despair, I’ve heard it said. But in other ways, I don’t know, is there an indicator maybe, or do you have any kind of rules of thumb for, “Hey, you know, we gave this a great effort, you’ve learned some things, you’ve been sharpened and developed in some cool ways yet it seems though, pursuing another avenue of learning is going to be a bigger bang for your buck”? Are there any sort of rules of thumb or guidance you use there?

Ryan Carson
Yes. So the major indicator is something called grit. Angela Duckworth actually wrote a book on this and it’s worth reading. And it really is the ability to continue when you get discouraged. I think that ability will be a large indicator if you could be successful but that’s not a cognitive talent, right? It’s not, “Hey, I’m great at math.”

So this is people’s largest misconception about coding is that it is computer science. It’s just not. So most of coding is adding, is multiplication, is writing text, I mean, it’s not even geometry, it’s not even algebra. It’s actually more like writing a screenplay. It’s very creative. You use words. There are some rules, you know, you’ve got to put a period here and a semicolon there. But that’s it.

So, yeah, I think grit, it’s all about grit. And there’s some interesting tests, Angela has one in her book, which is kind of useful as a starting point.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Understood. So it sounds like that you don’t have much of a comment on the…you’re saying, “Hey, maybe they do get farther than 100 hours but whatever. It’s the grit and persistence that’s going to ultimately carry the day long term.” Is that kind of what I’m hearing from you?

Ryan Carson
It is. And it’s sort of similar to carpentry. And actually there are I think 10,000 open carpentry jobs in Portland, Oregon right now. So this belief that, you know, the trades are somehow not the place to get a job is false, number one. But, let’s take carpenters. So, we don’t think of carpentry this way where we say, “Gosh, we’re going to have a hundred people try to learn carpentry. Isn’t it really only the top 10 that are going to be good? I mean, come on, right? It’s hard.”

Like, no. If you put in the hard work, you can be a great carpenter, right? So much of what we do at work now, in the information age, has much more in common with carpentry than it does with science, right? So I want to put that out there.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, I appreciate that analogy and metaphor there. As a recent homeowner, you know, looking at a lot of…and just having great respect for the different intelligences of these craftsmen who are doing stuff. It’s like, wow, I don’t much at all about plumbing or electrical or about carpentry.

Ryan Carson
Right. I wish I did. I wish I did.

Pete Mockaitis
And so it’s very impressive. And so it sounds like you’re saying, “Well, Pete, it’s not so much that they all have grand aptitude toward plumbing and electrical of which you do not possess, but rather they just dug in and spent the time learning and developing the skillset.”

Ryan Carson
Yeah, they put in the work and they developed mastery, and you can too if you really want. And this is the beauty, and this is why I’m so passionate about my job at Treehouse it’s because I’m alive at the right time in human history where there’s an explosion of jobs, right?

So if I was teaching some sort of skill where there’s just a couple of jobs here and there, I wouldn’t be as passionate. But there’s going to be 1.3 million new developer jobs in America in the next 10 years, only 400,000 are going to be filled by college grads, so we have 900,000 jobs that are available. And anyone listening can get one. They just have to learn a skill like carpentry, it just happens to be at a computer. That’s all.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool. Okay. Well, let me dig in a little bit more in terms of what that can look like in practice. So, hey, there’s many programming languages out there. What’s your assessment of which ones are sort of the most in demand right now?

Ryan Carson
You bet. So JavaScript is really, really hot right now.

Pete Mockaitis
So hot right now – JavaScript.

Ryan Carson
It’s the thing. But that probably means nothing to most people that are listening. So what I would suggest instead is that you start by learning how to build a simple website. Very simple, very approachable. You know, everybody understands what a website is, so start there. If you enjoy that process, then you can dig in, and say, “You know what, I kind of like using technology to create. Now I’m going to take a JavaScript basics course and build a really simple app.”

It’s really fun because when you learn how to code it almost feels God-like because you sit down at a computer with a blank screen, and then in the end you build something that actually does something really amazing, and you’ve sort of willed it out of nothing. And it’s fun. It’s really creative.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, I like the way you phrased that, and I felt similarly with my minor modest, you know, tiny programming accomplishments.

Ryan Carson
Right.

Pete Mockaitis
Or even creating something else whether it’s a logo, or a work of art through Photoshop, or an assessment, you know, even a questionnaire that it has power to yield insights for folks that are having used it. It’s cool. It’s a thrill. Cool. Well, so then, could you give us maybe a rough sense for, okay, if someone did want to pursue that and to have, you know, to know enough JavaScript such that a company would say, “Hey, hiring you would be valuable to us and not a pain in our rear because you’re holding us all back.” Roughly how many kind of learning hours are we talking about here?

Ryan Carson
So what we usually suggest is people think of it as a nine- to 12-month journey where they’re spending about one to two hours a day. So in that time you cannot interrupt your life and stop everything but yet still make progress. So what we usually tell people do is try something free. Treehouse has a free trial or Codecademy is an option. There’s a number of free things you can try.

If something strikes you about it, “Oh, I think I like this,” then dive in. We’ve got a really affordable option to start with if you want, but there’s plenty of choices. And then do what I talked about earlier. Put on your calendar, commit to the daily work one step at a time, and enjoy the progress as you go. And you can become a full-pledged web developer in nine to 12 months.

And then, salary expectations-wise, we usually tell folks, you know, without previous paid experience, you can expect to earn about 55K to start in that first job, and that’s a very much kind of an apprentice level, junior level job. And then within five years you’ll be making between $70,000 to $90,000 a year, sometimes even more. I mean, depending on where you live, you could be making easily $100,000, or if you’re in crazy Silicon Valley you could make $200,000 to $300,000 a year, so the sky is really the limit.

Pete Mockaitis
And is this $200 to $300 like, you know, legendary super developer, I think, what is it, Marco Arment. I think he’s the ultimate. I love Overcast so much by a podcast.

Ryan Carson
He’s great. Oh, my gosh, he’s great. He’s like the grouchy old man of the internet. I think, no. If you live in Silicon Valley, the kind of crazy thing is you can be a good solid developer with five years of experience to be making hundreds of thousands of dollars. There’s just so much demand. Now, personally, I would not recommend going to Silicon Valley.

You know, we’re located in Portland, Oregon, a lot of our developers work from home, literally from home like Denver, Colorado and various places like that because it’s much more affordable, so the cost of living is way lower. So you can get a great job as a developer from almost anywhere. We have a lot of moms who are returning to work this way, “Hey, my kids are done with school now, or they’re in school. I want a job but I still want to be able to pick them up from school.” Becoming a developer is a great way to do that too.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Nifty. Well, tell us, any other pro tips on the learning, skill acquisition, focus, motivation, the goods here?

Ryan Carson
You bet. I really think it’s important to find your why, the deep, deep reason that you want to do something. I’ve come back to this over and over again over the past year. I have a very deep why in Treehouse. I feel like it’s the most important thing I’ll ever do. So if you can find that, that will be the reason that you wake up at 4:30 or you do that hour of work even though you’re tired.

If you can’t find that why, and I didn’t really find my why until I was about 32, I think you have to try to hold on to the faith that you can find it, that it’s a process, it’s a journey, and you’re on the journey to finding that why, and just to hang on a little bit longer. Hit me up on Twitter, I’m @ryancarson and say, “I’m looking for my why. I need some encouragement,” and I’ll give you a high five emoji back, and say, “Keep going. You can do it.” It really is so important to dig in and try to find that why.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool. Thank you. Well, any other thoughts before we shift gears and hear about a few of your favorite things?

Ryan Carson
No, I think that daily discipline to commit to a why is really what I’m all about right now, so let’s kick in the next section.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Let’s do it. Can you share with us a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Ryan Carson
“The obstacle is the way,” which is we talked about Ryan Holiday said that, that’s been so key for me.

Pete Mockaitis
And is he quoting a philosopher?

Ryan Carson
I think so.

Pete Mockaitis
Is that Marcus Aurelius or it’s one of the others?

Ryan Carson
I think so. I’m pretty sure he stole it but it’s still great.

Pete Mockaitis
And how about a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Ryan Carson
I really love Angela’s work around grit. The idea of grit, understanding it, realizing it really can change the trajectory of your life is fascinating. So would highly recommend her book.

Pete Mockaitis
Any other books you’d highly recommend?

Ryan Carson
I always say this, and people laugh, but How to Win Friends & Influence People. My mom made me read it when I was in high school, and I just thought, “Oh, mom, what is this? This sounds like some sort of cheesy sales book.” And it fundamentally changed my life because I realized, “Oh, I need to think about what’s in it for other people.” That’s really the foundational principle in life.

Pete Mockaitis
Right.

Ryan Carson
So I highly recommend that. If I can get a bonus one in there.

Pete Mockaitis
Sure.

Ryan Carson
We just went through some training from Franklin Covey called Speed of Trust. And I’ve done a lot of training in my life, and this was I think the most valuable, and that’s from an organizational perspective. So if anyone is listening, is working inside a company or an organization, please check it out. I have no financial reason to say that other than it was really, really helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
And, well, can you give us a taste?

Ryan Carson
A little hint?

Pete Mockaitis
What was the transformation or result that unlocked for you and how?

Ryan Carson
You bet. So the foundation of the idea is trust is a multiplier for results. So you can imagine it this way. As you listen to this podcast, close your eyes, think about a project that you worked on with someone that you didn’t trust, and think about how that project went. Well, I’m sure it went badly. Now why is that? Why was trust so important?

So the training digs in that. Okay, so obviously trust is going to be a hidden variable in your success. So how do you build trust with people? What if you don’t trust someone and you want to build that. So it walks you through the foundations of what trust is. So I’ll give you a little hint. So in order to trust somebody you have to believe someone is credible. So what is credibility? Well, they’ve broken it down into four concepts, and it’s a tree.

So imagine a tree in the ground and it’s got roots, it’s got a trunk, it’s got branches and leaves. So to be credible, you have to have four things. The roots of the tree is integrity. So someone has to believe deep down that you have integrity, that you will do what you say you’d do, that you are a good person. If you don’t have that root you’ll never build trust.

Okay. So, say, you believe someone has integrity. The stem of the tree, the trunk of the tree, is the intent. You have to understand the intent of that person. So why are they doing this project? What’s their real motive? What are they trying to get done? Do you feel like you can know it and understand it? It’s about intent.

Pete Mockaitis
And so it doesn’t have to be like good or bad, it’s just that you know it and understand it instead of it’s a hidden subversive thing. Is that the idea?

Ryan Carson
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Ryan Carson
Yup. Just got to know it and believe it.

Pete Mockaitis
“Trying to get a fat bonus, that’s what I’m trying to do.” Good enough.

Ryan Carson
Yup, now I know, right? And then the branches are capability. So you have to believe that person actually has the ability to deliver results, that they have the capability of doing so, you know. They have the skills, they have the time, etc. And then the final are the leaves which are results. Ultimately, you have to deliver results, right?

You could have integrity, you could have clear intent, you could have the capabilities, but in the end if you never actually deliver results then you’re not credible. And those four things, the tree, makes up credibility and you have to have credibility to have trust. So that’s like the edge of the training. The rest is amazing because, then they’d say, “Well, that’s great. But how do you establish those things if you don’t have them?”

And there’s 13 behaviors of trust, and you learn how to use them at the right times. It’s just great. It was shockingly valuable.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And so you saw in your own organization that trust increase and results multiplied?

Ryan Carson
It seems so. So we did this training two weeks ago. At Treehouse, we have 70-ish employees. We got together for a company meetup in person because we’re a remote team so we’re spread in the United States. And as soon as we finished the training, the first thing we did is we all went back and did our one-on-ones with the people that we manage, and we asked them, “Hey, what behaviors of trust do you need from me to help build trust?”

And we literally wrote them down, and it was really interesting to say, “Oh, wow, this person needs straight talk from me. That’s one thing they said. It’s a behavior they need from me so I need to do that.” So we’re already seeing an uptick in trust, and it’s just so exciting. It’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
Great, yes. Cool. Well, thanks for going deep there.

Ryan Carson
No problem. That sounds like a big commercial for Franklin Covey but, honestly, it was a really good training. I really, really appreciate it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m intrigued by trust myself these days, and how is that for cryptic?

Ryan Carson
That’s great.

Pete Mockaitis
Everything is okay, everybody. No need to worry. All right. And then how about a favorite tool, something that helps you be awesome at your job?

Ryan Carson
Oh, boy, I love my Bullet Journal. Do you know what Bullet Journals are?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s like a style of journal that helps you with like to-do list or tracking things, but sort of back and forth.

Ryan Carson
Yes. Okay. So here’s my method and it really works for me. It’s not a silver bullet. But what I do is in December I plan my year using a GANTT chart, and they’re really high-level things. Say, I want to get three things done in 2018, what buckets are they? So the first one is the Treehouse two-year vision. All right, I’ve got to move that forward. And then the second is family and friends, and the third is health. Okay. Great. All right.

And then I’ll break that down eventually into these large rocks and roughly when I need to work on them. And then every day when I wake up at 4:30, I immediately open that GANTT chart and I take what I need to be doing that day and I transfer it to written bullet points in my Bullet Journal, and it takes this large yearly planning and distills it down into, “Hey, what do I actually have to do today?”

And then the thing I love about it is I’m such a digital person. My phone is always on, I’m always on a computer. Using a written piece of paper and to check off my to-do list, for me, is just so satisfying. And it’s really focusing. I can turn off all screens and I just open my journal and I know what I got to do. So that’s one of my favorite tools. Love it.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, cool. And any favorite habits in addition?

Ryan Carson
Habits. Waking up at 4:30. I know I keep saying it but waking up early, I really believe, is the beginning of success.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a particular nugget that you share that really seems to resonate, connect with folks, gets them re-tweeting and note-taking and head-nodding?

Ryan Carson
I think it’s the theme I’ve been kind of banging on about which is you don’t need a college degree to succeed in life anymore. You really don’t. You don’t need the debt. You don’t need the outdated knowledge. You just need to go out and start stacking skills and build things, and then show people what you build. That’s the future.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch with you, where would you point them?

Ryan Carson
Please go to either Twitter or Instagram, I am @ryancarson, nice and simple, R-Y-A-N C-A-R-S-O-N, or Google Treehouse, and I think we’re number one and you’ll find us there.

Pete Mockaitis
Excellent. And do you have a final challenge or call to action you’d issue to folks seeking to be awesome at their jobs?

Ryan Carson
Yes, hit pause as soon as we stop talking on this podcast, and start thinking about your why. Dig into that really hard. And if you think you know it, tweet at me and Pete, and tell us what it is. It’d be fun to hear that.

Pete Mockaitis
And any pro tips for when you’re doing that digging, prompts, questions to get the wheels turning all the more?

Ryan Carson
Yes. What have I’ve been consistently coming back to in my life? Where do I keep kind of being drawn to? What is that thing? Is it a person? Is it a cause? Is it an idea? Is it a dream? Go back to that. For me, it was I just really want to help people. I really do. And I’m passionate about tech, so if I could help people learn tech, okay, yeah, that’s my why. So dig into that, dig into what do you do when you have free time and you kind of pick something to do. What is that about? And start unpacking that.

Pete Mockaitis
Awesome. Well, Ryan, thank you so much for taking this time to share the goods. I wish you and Treehouse tons of luck and keep on living the why there.

Ryan Carson
Thank you so much. It’s an honor to be on the show. It’s been fun.

Feb 12
0

261: Powering Up Your PowerPoint with Heather and Alan Ackmann

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Heather and Alan Ackmann say: "PowerPoint is... not a text-based medium; at heart it's a visual medium that uses text elements."

PowerPoint gurus Heather and Alan Ackmann share perspectives on how to take full advantage of PowerPoint for more impactful presentations.

You’ll Learn:

  1. When, why and how you should PowerPoint – and when you shouldn’t
  2. The three fundamental factors to consider when designing your slides
  3. When to use emotionally-driven graphics

About Heather & Alan

Alan Ackmann is the professional writing  for business coordinator in the Writing, Rhetoric, and Discourse department at DePaul University in Chicago, Illinois. His teaching specialties include professional and technical writing and the rhetoric of slideware and presentations. He has led professional development seminars for teachers on the local, state, and national level. In his spare time, he enjoys spending time with his wife and two children, as well as jogging, reading, and singing (though not always in that order).

Heather Ackmann is an author, Microsoft Certified Trainer, and Microsoft MVP. Since 2006, she has designed, authored, and narrated over 300 hours of video-based training for a variety of public and private entities. In 2016, she cofounded AHA Learning Solutions to provide high-quality learning materials to educational institutions and businesses nationally. She is an active member of the presentation community and a proud member of the Presentation Guild. You may find her sharing advice and Microsoft Office news on Twitter: @heatherackmann.

 

Items Mentioned in this Show:

Heather & Alan Ackmann Interview Transcript

Pete Mockaitis
Heather and Alan, thanks so much for joining us here on the How to be Awesome at Your Job podcast.

Heather Ackmann
Good to be here.

Alan Ackmann
Thanks for having us.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I’m so intrigued that both of you climb stairs competitively. Tell us how did that become a hobby of yours and why do you keep doing it?

Heather Ackmann
Well, “competitively” is probably not the word to describe me; I’m usually like the last to finish. Alan’s got much better time than I do. And our son did it with us last year and he had great time. But we got into it through one of the companies I used to work with; that was TrainSignal, yeah. It recently got bought out – not recently but a few years ago – bought out by Pluralsight – that’s the company now.
But one of our colleagues – he was really involved with the Respiratory Health Association, and he would volunteer with them, and he would climb stairs. And he got our company involved, and our whole entire company like, “Yeah, let’s go climb stairs.” And so, that’s what we did as a company – we all joined a team together and got family members involved, and that’s how Alan got into it.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, it’s actually a pretty big thing here in Chicago, (a) because there are so many scrapers and (b) because the weather is so terrible for six months of the year. So, you can have a lot of 5K or 10K runs in the summer time…

Heather Ackmann
It’s beautiful.

Alan Ackmann
Right now, I look out the window and it’s nice and sunny, but it’s also -4° outside currently. So that means that people have to find other ways to stay active. So there are climbs for the Hancock building, the Willis Tower, the Aon Center, and a lot of the other iconic Chicago skyscrapers.

Heather Ackmann
But the Hustle Up the Hancock, I personally believe is the most fun to do. They usually put people in the stairwells with the big foam fingers and they’ll high five you every four floors or something and be like, “Oh, yeah!” And they put signs inside the stairwell to tell you how well you’re doing, like, “You’ve climbed higher than the Eiffel Tower.” And it’s a lot of fun.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s right, Paris. You take that. We’re way taller.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
I did the Hustle Up the Hancock once at Bain and I remember… You talk about competitively – I remember, I think as compared to everybody in the Hustle Up the Hancock I think I was just slightly above average.

Heather Ackmann
Good for you!

Pete Mockaitis
Thank you. And then as compared to my Bain colleagues I was like last or second to last, and it’s like, “This is how I kind of feel about my career.”

Alan Ackmann
It’s kind of funny – for a while when I was young doing it, it was a question of trying to beat my time from the previous year. And as I’ve gotten a little older into the upper 30s, it’s more like trying to not be significantly worse than my time from the previous year. So, it’s more like competing with previous performances.

Heather Ackmann
Or yourself. I just want to finish at this point. After two kids – yeah, I just want to finish and not pass out and have to be carried out on a stretcher. It’s kind of my goal.

Pete Mockaitis
And you’re succeeding, so kudos on those accomplishments.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah, I’m here to talk about it, so I’m succeeding gloriously.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, you two are an interesting couple, not just for your stair-climbing enthusiasm, but also because both of you study and teach on PowerPoint. And sometimes that happens together, or is it all in your own unique context?

Heather Ackmann
Well, on rare occasions we do talk about it together, but most the time we kind of pass projects off to each other. We have our own separate audiences that we train too. Alan deals more with an academic audience – students and other professors.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, students and professional development for teachers.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah. And I deal more with professionals, people in business context, or more “train the trainer” situations for the professional context.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. So now let’s really… Boy, we could talk about PowerPoint for a long time, and maybe we’ll need a follow-up interview to go into it. So, could you tell us broadly speaking, when is PowerPoint the ideal tool to use, versus when should we use maybe another software, tool, or an entirely different approach to doing a presentation?

Alan Ackmann
For me, I guess it starts not with the question of when to use PowerPoint, but why to use PowerPoint. I think that there are a lot of people who will sometimes go for PowerPoint as the default tool, where they use it either because it’s something that they are expected to use as part of a presentation for example, and so it’s really easy to think about PowerPoint as something that you just kind of inherit.
But if you are making your own choices, then PowerPoint is the best I think when you have an opportunity to use it in a way that will benefit the viewer or listener’s experience, because when PowerPoint I think is used in an unproductive way, it becomes something that is used because it helps the speaker. It turns into something like a teleprompter, it becomes a way of taking the burden of explanation off of you as a presenter, and kind of shunting it off towards the slide themselves.
And in that case it’s not PowerPoint as something that’s going to help a reader understand your main ideas, or organize the logic behind what you have to say, or create some kind of an emotional impact. It’s just a way for an instructor to get through it. So, one of the biggest challenges that I see is people kind of falling into that trap. So, if you don’t have a situation like that where it’s good for a listener, then that by itself is kind of indicative of it might being a bad choice.

Heather Ackmann
Along the same lines, even in terms of our various audiences. There are certain people in both groups, who shun PowerPoint, or just slideware in general, doesn’t necessarily have to be PowerPoint. And the reasons that they shun them aren’t necessarily surrounded about the “When” or even the “Why”, but the tool itself, because it’s been overused or because it has been abused. And those are also the wrong reasons to shun a particular tool. You need to look at, I would say more along the lines of the context, or why it’s helping that particular presentation or that moment.
So, when looking at why you would use a tool such as PowerPoint, like how is it helping that presentation – PowerPoint is created as ideally a visual aid. Why would you need a visual? How is it helping the content of the presentation, how is it helping the speaker collect their ideas or tell that story? And those are the questions you should be asking in helping determine when and how you should be utilizing PowerPoint.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, perfect. I like that. So not just accepting it as the default: “Oh, this is the thing to do because it’s there.” Thinking about it not as a teleprompter, and more a tool for the audience and not for the presenter, and thinking when would a visual really do the trick. So that’s helpful to think about slideware, which is such a fun word. It brings back the consulting days. It sounds so elegant, like glassware in a laboratory. Slideware. So then, let’s talk about slideware. When would you say maybe Prezi or Keynote or something else might be a wiser choice than PowerPoint?

Heather Ackmann
Oh, gosh. Prezi. I don’t use Prezi that often. In fact, you’re familiar with the conference The Presentation Summit?

Pete Mockaitis
It’s ringing a bell. I’ve never been.

Heather Ackmann
Oh, you have to go! It’s so much fun! It’s where all of the great presentation designers and presenters, speakers… Dr. Carmen Simon, who I know has been on your show.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh yeah.

Heather Ackmann
She speaks there, she’s a keynote speaker there almost every year. Everyone loves her. 
So The Presentation Guild is kind of a non-profit organization for presentation designers, people who design presentations, who speak in the industry, who work in the industry. It’s an organization for them. And they go to the Presentation Summit and basically help fellow designers there. Yeah, it’s a place to go.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool.

Heather Ackmann
So at this conference, someone off-handedly referred to Prezi as kind of a one-night stand – you use it once and… I think that was a bit harsh, but Prezi does have its place and certainly companies do expect – or not expect but request Prezi presentations from time to time. And it does have kind of a unique look and feel, but I’ve also seen Prezi used what I’d say poorly, where it’s just basically sections that have been called out and with the title and the bullets underneath, and it’s just zooming from one place to another.
Another context where Prezi is not really appropriate is for webinars, where you just don’t have the screen capture, the upload, the frame rate to really handle it. So again, you kind of have to think of the environment where you’re presenting, and whether or not it can handle it. I’m an online student at DePaul, and I’ve had some professors try to use Prezi, and when you’re watching back a lecture as an online student you just miss all those animations; it’s just not there. So, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, so that’s the Prezi story. So now Keynote is pretty similar to PowerPoint, although with its own flavor. So, how might you speak to Keynote or some of the other slideware tools available?

Heather Ackmann
Honestly I really don’t use Keynote. I know a lot of my PowerPoint MVP colleagues, they use Keynote a lot more than I do. I’m a PC girl; I stick to the PC.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, in terms of persona, I’m kind of the same way. Thinking back to the old marketing campaigns, I’m much more the dweeby PC guy than the hipster Mac guy in the end. And my loyalty is with PowerPoint, kind of go the same way.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah, they run pretty deep, so…

Alan Ackmann
I think it’s interesting though, with PowerPoint – if you look at it from kind of a market dominance point of view, it’s difficult for me to answer a question about Keynote, because it seems fundamentally to operate along kind of the same software logic that PowerPoint does. So, a lot of the best practices for it are pretty similar. And so in that case you’re talking a little bit about maybe what tool would be optimal, but I don’t think a lot of the underlying strategy would change very much, especially if you think about PowerPoint and Keynote as being something using it purposefully as opposed to what technical advantages it can offer. Can I go back to Prezi for just a second?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh sure.

Alan Ackmann
So, Prezi is a really interesting use case for me, because it almost reminds me of some of the earlier versions of PowerPoint and how it was marketed. In the earlier versions of PowerPoint, when they were first debuting a lot of animations and transitions, it was all about the new kind of gadgets and impacts that PowerPoint could have, going back a couple of variations back in the program.
And I look at Prezi presentations, and a lot of it reminds me of what you would see in PowerPoint presentations from like 10 years ago, when animations were first becoming available, because when used badly it becomes less about, “Look at the message I have to say” and more about, “Look at what this cool tool can do.” So when people get into Prezi and they get kind of enamored with the various transitions and swoops and zooms and all those things that can really add a neat… I’ve seen a lot of Prezis where they add a lot of neat aesthetic texture, but not a lot where it complements the material.
The exception is when people are giving presentations that are kind of about dealing with the individual components of a larger thing. So, if you’ve got a presentation for example about a departmental reorganization and you want to start with a global view, and then zoom into the individual departments themselves and their components and purposes – that can do a really good job of maybe demonstrating how the individual things fit into the larger perspective, which can really I think serve a very persuasive purpose.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, yeah. Or maybe from a sales presentation perspective, if, “Hey, here’s this cool piece of hardware and here’s how it works, with regard to some of the sub-components.”

Alan Ackmann
Exactly.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I’m with you.

Alan Ackmann
I would love to see a Prezi that’s almost in technical communication, kind of an exploded diagram of components and how the individual component of an engine works, or something like that. Again, that’s a purposeful use, instead of just, “Look at the thing that it can do.”

Heather Ackmann
Yeah. And it’s really hard for individuals who are not naturally visually inclined to be able to take their material on black and white paper and to translate it into something that is largely visual. It’s easy for me to do, but not everyone’s like that. And so, it’s just when you have a tool like Prezi that’s like this large open canvas, where there really isn’t a lot of suggestions – you just see this large open white piece of paper. And I think that kind of just stumps the user, and what do they do? It’s like opening up a white butcher paper almost, like, “What do I draw?” It can be really intimidating, and so without a little bit I think of hand-holding or examples to look at, I just think people just don’t know how to visualize their own ideas in a three-dimensional space, which ultimately that is Prezi.

Alan Ackmann
And a lot of what PowerPoint does through its use of smart art and those kinds of quasi-directed template-driven design, is to give the user that direction that you were just expressing.

Heather Ackmann
At least some kind of ideas with what to do with it, even though they’re not always perfect and they’re not always necessarily helpful to that rhetorical context, to throw out that word there. But it can be helpful, it can be harmful, but I think more times than not those aids in PowerPoint are helpful.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool, thank you. So we talked about when to use a PowerPoint or a Keynote type tool, and then you’ve also done some teaching on some potential uses of PowerPoint, sort of beyond the traditional, “Hey, I’m going to do a presentation. Here’s a slide, here’s another slide.” Can you share some of those?

Alan Ackmann
Well, the one that immediately leaps to mind is kind of the most far-out one; isn’t necessarily a practical one, but the kind of neat, almost artistic experimental work people are doing with PowerPoint in movies, like trying to make little short films or cartoons just using PowerPoint as a device. And those kinds of things are about stretching the boundaries of what is typically considered a presentation software and what it can be. So, the part of me that just likes kind of tracking emerging ways to create art, is fascinated by that.
And a lot of other use cases in PowerPoint get near the further away you drift, almost, from the conventional sales presentation, like for example everybody’s seen a presentation at a wedding for example, where it’s a slide show of the people as they’ve grown up and met. It can play something soft and manipulative from easy listening stations.
But the thing is, a lot of PowerPoint is I think splintering off into little sub-genres like that, where you’ve got PowerPoint that is something like a family togetherness aid. That’s an awkward way to phrase it, but PowerPoint is serving a social function more than a persuasive or professional function there. And the thing that I’m also kind of interested in… Some of my background is in literature and creative writing, before I got into studying professional communication. And we would study different forms of poetry, and formal poetry like sonnets and things like that. And there’s a style of PowerPoint now that’s kind of emerging – Pecha Kucha. Is that how you pronounce it? Well, mangled that one.

Heather Ackmann
I don’t even know if I’m saying it right. It’s one of those words that’s just you look at and…

Alan Ackmann
No, I remember that – it’s like the old Muppet thing – Pecha Kucha. I think that’s how I’ve heard it pronounced.

Heather Ackmann
I don’t know, we’re probably butchering it.

Alan Ackmann
But it’s a very kind of regimented way of doing PowerPoint, where it’s only like 20 slides at 20 seconds each.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, like ignite or a fire or lightening round. I’ve heard them call that at events.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, everything is constrained, so it’s about what people can do with their material within those constraints. And when I first heard about that I was like, “Well, that’s just adding artifice.” But all art is essentially going to be artifice to some extent, and there’s going to constraints in there, just like you would have a sonnet of I Am, a pentameter in 14 lines, and all the other limitations. So I think it’s fascinating to see little things like that with PowerPoint kind of emerging organically as people start putting in this new formal structure to it.

Heather Ackmann
I think the Pecha Kucha was started by architects.

Alan Ackmann
That makes sense.

Heather Ackmann
They wanted to showcase their designs without talking about them profusely.

Alan Ackmann
That’s really interesting.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s helpful.

Alan Ackmann
That’s the thing about architecture and that struggle between form and function. And it seems like the Pecha Kucha is kind of about that tension to a large extent.

Pete Mockaitis
And so now when you spoke about a family or a togetherness aid, I don’t know if I’m familiar with this usage. Can you unfold that a bit? Is it just for the two of you, or is it for other people?

Heather Ackmann
Well, PowerPoint has brought us together.

Alan Ackmann
No, I was referring more to the PowerPoint at weddings than that kind of thing.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, that’s what you meant. Okay, I’m following.

Heather Ackmann
And funerals.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, I’ve seen that too, where people will make at a wake for example a presentation about significant moments in a person’s life. And I think that those kinds of situations are hard for most people. It’s hard to be articulate, it’s hard to say everything you want to say, and so people turn to things like PowerPoint as a means of…

Heather Ackmann
Coping, like a script for the moment.

Alan Ackmann
And as a means of kind of honoring and having a shared experience, where everyone watches the same slides and it triggers the same kinds of memories. And it’s a way of having a more insulated, safer way of grappling with the emotions of those kinds of big things.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, I like it. Thank you. So now let’s dig into maybe some of the core principles and concepts when it comes to…

Heather Ackmann
Oh, I want to go back a little bit.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Heather Ackmann
We talked about some of the uses of PowerPoint that people don’t know – I want to go back to this video thing. He mentioned movies. Well, social media – video is like king in social media right now, but a lot of people just don’t have the budget for a film crew or for just hiring people to develop videos. You can develop right now 4K resolution videos right from PowerPoint, and with the animation techniques that you can create in PowerPoint very simply through transitions like the morph transition – I don’t know if you’re familiar with that one – available with the Office 365 subscription.
Using that morph transition, animating between slides to move objects around and just to animate – it’s so fast. I’ve got a video on that on YouTube right now, just how to morph, use that morph transition – walks you through it. But it’s so easy and you can create really, really nice looking videos and export them right as an MP4. And you can follow the video specs for Twitter, for things like Snapchat. Just create the dimensions of your slide to those output specs and create your social media campaign right from within PowerPoint.
So that is a very simple use case that a lot of people haven’t thought of. And with social media, it changes so rapidly, you have to be able to produce content so quickly. And having that dedicated film crew to use those fancier production tools like the rapid-fire there, the ROI necessarily isn’t right there. But with PowerPoint, it is. You can create it quickly, cheaply, and have just about anyone produce it for those social media channels.

Pete Mockaitis
That is cool, thank you.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. So now I want to talk a bit about some of the principles and conceptual pillars associated with what makes a slide great. And so Heather, you sort of lay out a number of core principles to start with, with regard to thinking through this, even before we get into a given slide. What are those?

Heather Ackmann
Well, in the course I have on Lynda I kind of lay it out based on what you mentioned – the three pillars, and for that it’s the audience, the environment, and the message or the content that you’re trying to deliver for your audience. And that I just sort of define as pillars, but all that is based on really classic rhetoric.
But when you’re thinking of your slide, a lot of people just sort of think about the message and how it relates in PowerPoint, and that’s as far as it goes for a lot of people. They sometimes forget about the audience. Or maybe they’ll think about the audience a little bit and the message a little bit, but completely forget about the environment, or where the presentation will be held or presented.
And that can have a huge impact on the look of the slides or how the slides are perceived, where you’re presenting such as a huge auditorium with thousands and thousands of people where that message will be projected on giant screens, versus a small tiny boardroom with just 20 people. Or if that PowerPoint’s going to be opened on a mobile device and just read by the CEO of the company very quickly in his car on the way to the airport.
That’s all going to have a huge impact on how that message will be read and perceived. And a lot of people neglect to think about that when designing their slides, in terms of the font choices, even the colors, or the space or layout of information on that slide. And that all plays a part.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s so excellent. I’m also thinking in terms of, will they’d be printouts available to folks?

Heather Ackmann
Oh yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
And then Nick Morgan’s favorite pet peeve is like, “I know you can’t read this, but…”

Heather Ackmann
Yeah, yeah.

Alan Ackmann
And I encounter that environment limitation a lot, because I teach at university but I don’t teach in the same room every term. And I’ve had rooms before where they’re really deep rooms and they go seven, eight rows back, and others that are more shotgun-style rooms, where it’s three tables or three rows with a bunch of lengthy tables. And so I’ve had times before where I’ve had a slide deck that I would have as a go-to deck for a lecture that I deliver every term. And I’ve had to modify it just because it’s going to be interfering with the environment. And sometimes you really can’t predict or control environments. Going to conferences is a big point of stress for me, partly because you never know what the room is going to be like.

Heather Ackmann
And a lot of times they give you a conference template that some designer created, not knowing what the environment’s going to be like. They booked the rooms after they create the template or the template designers have no idea anything about the specs of the conference itself.

Alan Ackmann
My favorite story about how environment can gum up the works came when I was actually sitting in a presentation. We have department meetings on a pretty regular basis for one thing or another, and there was one time I was at a department meeting where someone was giving a presentation, and it was a session that also had lunch accompanying it.
So I happened to be sitting in the back row, or kind of where they were going to be setting up the lunch buffet, catering was. And it was a lunch food tray that had this really kind of potent-smelling ham that was behind me during the entire presentation. So, I’m sitting there… I was an ideal audience member at that point – I was there by choice, I was actively interested in it, I was taking notes. There was no need to convince me of anything. And I’m just sitting really trying to listen, and all I can think is, “Wow, it smells like ham in here.” And not like good Thanksgiving ham, like a little bit of … to the ham.

Heather Ackmann
I still give this example when I teach, by the way.

Pete Mockaitis
I’ve seen a great speaker – when they realize that the wafting scent of the food is there, they’ll sort of take a time-out, check with the organizer: “Can they just eat this now and then I’ll talk after that?” Because then they just know there’s no hope.

Heather Ackmann
That goes back to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs – your participants are in the room thinking about food, especially when the lunch tray’s delivered. Why would you keep talking? Food comes before anything else.

Pete Mockaitis
Totally. And Alan, I really want to follow up on what you said, with regard to if it’s a deep versus a shallow room, you adjust the slides. Can you share what sorts of adjustments do you make within those environmental context shifts?

Alan Ackmann
Well, if it’s a deep room versus a shallow room, the first thing I have to adjust is the size of any text that’s on the screen, the resolution that a slide can support. The further back people get, the harder it’s going to be to be able to track what’s on the slide. And so in those cases if I would have a lecture for example that has kind of an anchor slide at the end, that’s a, “Here are the five most important things to take away from the class period” kind of slide, in a conventional classroom I might make those just a standard top-down bullet point, which I think that is a use case where it’s an appropriate design choice. But if it’s a deeper room, where I think it’s not going to be able to support the font for that, then maybe break that across five different slides and have one point isolated on each slide, in a way that even the people in the back are going to be able to hear it and use it.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah, white space between graphic elements is also important in those larger-room environments too, just to separate elements that don’t go together, because from far away anything that looks close together looks like it goes together. So, they look like one and the same, or they should be one and the same. But with the more space you place between graphic elements, they look more like separate ideas or separate elements.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay, cool. That’s a great example there of how with a shift in environment you adjust what you’re doing in the PowerPoint. Could you also give us an example within the realm of audience versus message? Or sorry, so if it’s like, “Hey, if an audience is more like this sort of audience, do this, versus if they’re the opposite, do that.” And likewise, with message.

Alan Ackmann
This is a complicated question, because it starts moving outside of PowerPoint as just a software platform, and into PowerPoint as kind of a presentation practice. To take it back a little bit further from that, just thinking critically about the kind of audience you’re going to be talking to, and what their needs are going to be.
When I’m teaching, for example, it to students, a lot of what we need to do is just make sure that students would understand the concepts that are being presented. So in that case it’s mostly an informative presentation, and that’s different than something like a sales presentation, where you might have some content, but it’s about motivating somebody to a kind of action – you want them to go to a website or consider an idea, versus just trying to get them to understand the nuts and bolts behind a concept.

Heather Ackmann
That’s a good point. For a class situation, there’s objectives, there’s a group of information, material, that as a whole you’re hoping that they’ll take away. Not necessarily remember all at once, as soon as it comes out of your mouth, but you’re hoping that they’ll come back to the lecture materials and then study it on their own and at least remember the concepts to go back to either the textbook, the PowerPoint slides themselves, and basically to further study on their own, because basically your lecture and any PowerPoint slides you provide them are there to hopefully be as a study aid, so for further learning. That’s ideal, right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah.

Heather Ackmann
In theory. But in a professional context – and now I’m thinking of Dr. Carmen Simon’s book here.

Pete Mockaitis
Impossible to Ignore.

Heather Ackmann
Impossible to Ignore. So, for that one in that context, you’re wanting to pick out the most important details that your audience wants to remember and turn it into, again, that action item. And so for there, the goal is a very singular point and not a collection of points.

Alan Ackmann
Well, I’m thinking about occasions where the content of what you’re presenting doesn’t change very much, but the audience does, and the kind of things you would do to customize. Some of the most impactful presentations that I’ve seen, and I’m always going all the way back to Driver’s Ed, where there were presentations about drinking and driving, and why you shouldn’t do it.
And they were these very kind of emotionally-hinged presentations with a lot of clear attempts to demonstrate the possible stakes behind drinking and driving. And that’s very different than something that would be given on the same topic to a group of legal professionals about trying to defend and identify a legal standard of what classifies as driving under the influence, and if so, ways to defend or try to prosecute people in those kinds of contexts. Those are heavily logically-driven.
And you could pull in the same statistics about the impact that drinking and driving can have, high frequency among users in a young demographic, consequences, but in one case it’s a larger objective of convincing people not to do it, and in another case it’s a question of, “Here’s how to handle it if you’ve got a client who’s been convicted of drinking and driving.” And that’s very different from somebody where the same information might be, but for an officer who has a job where they’ve identified someone as possibly driving under the influence, and how to kind of identify or deal with people in those kinds of situations.

Pete Mockaitis
And so then from a slide perspective, what do you envision as being some key things you would do differently in that logical argument versus the emotional power persuasion?

Alan Ackmann
Well, this is all strictly back of the envelope here.

Heather Ackmann
Well, for the Driver’s Ed class it would be emotionally-driven graphics, so visuals would be very key there – full color, large…

Pete Mockaitis
It’s like the whole slide there’s a tragic human being, and blood and death.

Heather Ackmann
Yeah.

Alan Ackmann
I don’t think you even need to get graphic.

Heather Ackmann
You don’t even need to get horribly graphic, just suggestive.

Alan Ackmann
Although that is an interesting kind of secondary consideration, is how graphic would be appropriate? But you think of any kind of visual, particularly a pictorial visual, is going to be in many cases emotionally powerful. It’s something that’s meant to have a pathos appeal, versus a logos appeal. And the kind of thing that isn’t going to be effective, at least with the younger demographic in the, “I’m sitting through Driver’s Ed because I have to do it to get my license, and I’d much rather be out doing other stuff” kind of environment – you’re not going to get a lot of time to draw an audience in to the most important things you have to say. And so, the easiest thing to express there is not the kind of statistical ratios; it’s the emotional impact, and choosing visuals would be a short way to do that.

Heather Ackmann
And consequences.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, consequences, and I’m also thinking about shorter text, less reliance on developing a logical argument, even though there’s obviously going to be kind of an implicit logic behind that “Why you shouldn’t drink and drive.” But those are the kinds of things that would jump out at me first.

Heather Ackmann
Then for the legal situation, it’s going to be a more logical argument. So for there, lawyers do a lot of reading…

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, it’s going to be able to support lengthier quotes, higher reliance on the speaker versus the impact of the slides themselves, because there’s generally going to be a little bit more audience buy-in, where you’re going to able to tolerate a little bit more of a patient delineation.

Heather Ackmann
Quite frankly I don’t envision that talk necessarily being delivered as a talk. I imagine that PowerPoint file being handed off to someone and scanned as they’re going from one place to another. So that’s more of what we’d call a walking deck or an info deck.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah, I use the term “archival slide deck”.

Heather Ackmann
Archival slide deck, whatever term you choose to use for it. But that PowerPoint deck probably won’t be projected anywhere and presented in a traditional sense; it’ll be read. So, that one I think would be designed actually more like a document than a docuslide. I think that’s Duarte’s term, I don’t remember.

Alan Ackmann
I’ve heard docuslide, I’ve heard slideument.

Heather Ackmann
Slideument, yeah. People come up with all kinds of fun words. It’s not like a presentation in the traditional sense, but it’s more like a document. So that’s kind of what I envision for the lawyer audience in the end. For the third audience – that’s the cop – no PowerPoint. That’s all demo, that’s upfront personal demo, no slides.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect, thank you. So now, we’re having so much fun, but I want to make sure that we touch upon a few of the key design principles that show up and slides.

Alan Ackmann
Which one do you want to talk about?

Pete Mockaitis
Let’s say hierarchy.

Alan Ackmann
Okay. For me hierarchy is about identifying what the most important element of the slide is, and then picking, making a visual design that is about supporting that main idea. I have a slide in one of my courses, where it’s about how students perceive a presentation and how long they’re willing to listen.
And the slide there is a kind of, not a forced perspective shot, but there is a student in the foreground who’s kind of turned around, and then in the background, farther off in the distance, there’s a blurred out version of a chalkboard or a whiteboard. So you can kind of see that it’s there, but it’s clearly secondary to the student themselves, because that design or that particular slide is not about what the presentation is; it’s about how students are going to respond to presentations, so that gets the visual focus.

Pete Mockaitis
Got you.

Alan Ackmann
And my favorite story on that – my first day of graduate school my instructor was an old Southern lady. And she walked in and said, “This is the most important thing I’m going to tell y’all about writing.” And on the board she wrote down, “Serve the whole.” And what that meant was that in any kind of story or point of communication you identify, “What’s the most important thing I want to say?” and then design secondary choices around furthering that important thing. But the reason I’ve always remembered it is because she had really bad penmanship and she kind of wrote it on the board without reading it out loud.

Heather Ackmann
With this really curly cute Southern scroll.

Alan Ackmann
Yeah. And so it looked like, “Serve the whale.” And so I’m looking at it and I’m going, “Serve the whale? What does that mean?”

Heather Ackmann
She never actually said, “Serve the whole.”

Alan Ackmann
So she just stepped back and had people read it and ponder it. And I’m like, “Serve the whale? What does that mean?” But I caught on after a couple of minutes, like, “Oh, this is ‘Serve the whole’. Oh, maybe graduate school is not hard, okay.” Then I think it’s a really important kind of anchor concept, because hierarchy is about identifying what’s most important. And I just talk about that in a visual way, but it also happens with things like the size of text – larger text is perceived as more important than smaller text, big visuals are perceived as dominant to captions, and those kinds of things.

Heather Ackmann
And for the structure of the presentation as a whole – you can have a hierarchy throughout the entire slide deck – what slides in the presentation stand out? You know how in PowerPoint you’ve got that slide sorter view, where you can zoom out and see all your slides from kind of like this bird’s eye view? What slides stand out? What’s the hierarchy there from that view? What five slides out of that, I don’t know, 100 slides that you have in that presentation – if you have that many – stand out? Because those five slides out of that 100 – those are going to be the ones that in theory will gain or garner that attention, if they do stand out visually. So there’s a hierarchy to the individual slides, the slide deck together, and then from a content standpoint as well. So you’re creating kind of a visual hierarchy and even a content hierarchy.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh excellent, thank you. Well, tell me, Heather and Alan – is there anything else that you want to make sure to mention right upfront, before we hear about a couple of your favorite things?

Alan Ackmann
For me, the most common question that I get is about text on a slide, and how much text should be on there, and how it should be used. And I think that that question kind of comes from misunderstanding how PowerPoint is designed to operate. It’s not a text-based medium; at heart it’s a visual medium that uses text elements. And I think that in terms of my own kind of professional development that I’ve lead, that’s one of ideas that really seems to resonate with people, is thinking of PowerPoint not just as something that contains your script, but as something that is meant to contain visuals that enhance the presentation itself, and considering text as just one of those fundamentally visual elements.

Heather Ackmann
See, for me, when people ask me how much text is allowed on the slide, “How much should I use? Should I avoid it?”, or even when you get to the bullet point question: “Can I use bullet points? Are bullet points okay?”, I really don’t like answering those questions because I just don’t feel that that’s the right question you should be asking. Because again, for me it comes down to the audience, their expectations, the content, the environment, and what’s appropriate to use for that presentation, in that moment, in that time.
And there’s a lot of “ifs” there. And if your audience is expecting text, if they’re hoping for text, like those students in the classroom that plan on using those PowerPoint files to help them study – they expect text, they want text. And it may not be the best visual, it may not be the most engaging, but they want some kind of text document that they can quickly search, quickly scan, and use it to help them study. You may not use that as your lecture slides, but they want something.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect, thank you.

Alan Ackmann
And it kind of goes back to the initial comment that I made when starting this podcast, which is about who the slide deck is designed to benefit. And if it’s a deck that is often designed to help the speaker, it ends up kind of overburdened with text; and if it’s designed to help the audience or the students, then text can be moderated appropriately.

Pete Mockaitis
Very good, thank you. Well now, could you share with us a favorite book, something that you found helpful?

Heather Ackmann
Oh, gosh. Well, my favorite design book… We’ve been talking about hierarchy, space, color, all these different design elements. My favorite design book primer – if anyone’s listening and wants to learn more about graphic design – great primer is by Alex W. White The Elements of Graphic Design. And I strongly recommend getting the hard copy physical book as opposed to the Kindle edition, because the pages are beautiful. So that’s a great one. There’s a lot of other graphic design books out there that talk about the same kind of visual design elements and graphic design elements, but I like Alex White. It’s a quick read, enjoyable read, lots of pretty pictures.

Alan Ackmann
And if I’m picking one that I think has a nice general audience appeal, it would be Nancy Duarte’s Slide:ology.

Alan Ackmann
And I like Slide:ology mostly because it’s got a very academic foundation to it, but it’s not in any way inaccessible. It’s very grounded in best practices, and it’s also very actionable. There’s a lot of little exercises and suggestions about how to create a good deck, in addition to understanding what a good slide deck might look like in a moment.

Heather Ackmann
And of course, Dr. Carmen Simon’s book Impossible to Ignore – we mentioned that one earlier. She’s been on your show.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely.

Heather Ackmann
Love her book.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, thank you. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch with you two, where would you point them?

Heather Ackmann
I have a website at HeatherAckmann.com, and I also have a YouTube channel – same thing – YouTube.com/HeatherAckmann.

Alan Ackmann 

The easiest way to actually probably get a hold of me is through DePaul University, where I teach, and my email address is very accessible.

Alan Ackmann
Just go to DePaul’s directory, and I’m really easy to find.

Pete Mockaitis
Perfect, thank you. Well, Alan, Heather, thank you so much for sharing this stuff. It sounds like we have much more to dig into, and I appreciate it and I wish you tons of luck, and rocking and rolling tremendous presentations and experiences in the weeks and years ahead.

Heather Ackmann
Thank you!

Alan Ackmann
Thank you so much! Thanks for having us on.

Nov 21
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088: Getting Automated with Dan Caspi

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Dan Caspi says: "The speed of your Internet connection, the speed of your computer—all these things are impacting productivity on a day-to-day basis."

Science genius Dan Caspi talks automation, software, and why we shouldn’t be afraid to learn a little code.

You’ll Learn:

  1. Processes that you can automate that you didn’t know you needed to
  2. Nifty hacks to help you maximize Excel
  3. A checklist to serve your need for computer speed.

About Dan
Dan has a PhD. In Organic Chemistry and is a senior scientist at AbbVie. He is also currently serving in a hybrid Process Chemistry/Chemical Engineering position as a member of the Center for Reaction Engineering.
Dan is highly proficient with technology, programming (Perl, Python, PHP, JS, HTML) and computers, and is the computer genius behind Element 26, a boutique computer consulting company based in Evanston, Illinois.

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