KF #28. Drives Results Archives - How to be Awesome at Your Job

Pete Mockaitis
Shanna, welcome.

Shanna Hocking
Pete, I’m so glad to be here together with you.

Pete Mockaitis
I am so glad to be here as well. I think you’ve got so much really cool wisdom associated with career advancement and strategy and wise goodness, and I’m excited to dig in.

Shanna Hocking
Great. Let’s do it.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, could you kick us off with a particularly surprising or counterintuitive insight you’ve come to about us professionals trying to advance? What’s something you know that most of us don’t?

Shanna Hocking
Well, I’d like to believe that my job is to bring out things that people already know about themselves and maybe just need that encouragement. So, I think people need a reminder that they belong exactly where they are. We get to the table, the role, the seat, whatever it is, and then we start to think that maybe we didn’t belong there in the first place because it’s new and it’s challenging us. So, I think the reminder I want to give is that you belong exactly where you are and you’re meant to be there right now and your voice is important.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s very encouraging and hopeful. And I’m curious to hear, what happens if we don’t have that message in our hearts and minds, and we think something’s amiss? What are the implications for us in terms of how we show up and advance or fail to advance in career?

Shanna Hocking
Well, I think, first, it’s very important to say that most everyone feels this feeling when they’re in that role. It’s very normal. And so, if that’s something that you’re experiencing, you’re okay, you’re still in the right place. I think what happens if we don’t hear that voice of encouragement or that peer mentor or mentor to support us, we start to let that voice become much bigger than our expertise and our initiative. And we miss a chance to shine, to share ideas, to add value, and then, really, we are missing out, but so is our workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And can you share us, you’ve got a book called One Bold Move a Day, which is fun. I like bold moves.

Shanna Hocking
One Bold Move a Day is a message to you that you can achieve all of your personal and professional goals through a single intentional and meaningful action that you choose for yourself each day.

Pete Mockaitis
I like it. You’ve done this before, Shanna.

Shanna Hocking
I have done this before, and I really love telling this story about bold moves because people hear those words, bold and move, and they make a decision about what that means. And a bold move, as I define it, is a meaningful action that helps you move forward, learn, and grow. And with that mindset, you can see how this is attainable for you and worth trying.

Pete Mockaitis
I like it. And it also feels manageable and yet also meaningful and potentially transformative when strung together over many days in consecutive sequence. Could you share with us a cool story so we can get a taste for what exactly is the transformation that might be in store for us if we do one bold move a day?

Shanna Hocking
Sure. Well, I was delivering a workshop at a university this week, and I had been on campus with this team before, and at the break someone came over to me and she said, “Shanna, I had been waiting to tell you that I made my bold move.” And for her, there had been something she had been reluctant to do. I mean, every one of us has that thing on our to-do list that we need to do or want to do, but we feel hesitant for whatever reason.

Maybe we’re anticipating a negative outcome, or maybe we’re unsure if we have the capacity to do it, or we just really put it aside because it’s not our favorite thing to do. And so, she used this framework as the motivation to do the thing that had been on her to-do list for a very long time. And after she learned it, she felt compelled to make that bold move the next day.

And it was really meaningful for me to hear that story in real time from her because I think it’s important for us to realize that a bold move can be the big billboard moment in our career and in our life, or it could be just that thing on your to-do list that you need to move forward.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, can you tell us what was that thing and what happened as a result of doing it?

Shanna Hocking
Sure. So, for her, she needed to reach out to someone to have a conversation, and I think we often think about these as difficult conversations, and so when we put that kind of language on the anticipatory feelings about the conversation, we create these self-doubts and worry in our mind that it might not go well.

And the bold move framework reminds us that it’s an opportunity to grow and learn from it, and so I like to redefine this as an important conversation to have. And when she was able to do that, she was able to move forward a project that had been stuck because she put herself out there and followed through. And even if it hadn’t gone the way that she wanted, she would have learned something from that experience.

Pete Mockaitis
I love that example so much in terms of reaching out to someone to have a conversation that you’ve put off. And I’m thinking there have been times in my life I could think of, there were two key emails, and I thought, “Oh, you know what? If I could set up a partnership with this person, that could just be so huge.” And I thought, “Oh, but he’s such a big deal. I don’t know. Like, why would he pay attention to little me?” and, “Well, hey, it can’t hurt.”

And so, I put it off. I put it off, and then I did. And that led to, literally, a partnership with thousands of hours of coaching and then hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue.

And I almost didn’t do it because I got scared, or thinking to myself, “Oh, no, it’s not going to go anywhere. Why bother?” or, getting too perfectionistic with it. It’s like, “Okay, this could be huge, so I really got to make sure this message is the most amazing thing ever,” but then, “Oh, but now it’s too long. No one wants to look at that wall of text.” And so, so back and forth, and yet, that was massive.

And then another time, I read an article about someone who had a cool business in the Wall Street Journal, and I was like, “Huh, you know, we could help you guys with that.” And so, I thought, “Oh, I don’t know, this guy is, you know, a founder/CEO of a billion-dollar company. He’s probably going to ignore his messages.” The same thing! You think I would have learned my lesson, but over a decade later, I guess I forgot. It’s like, “You know what, let’s just go ahead and do this thing.” And then, like, 14 minutes later, he’s like, “Yeah, we should talk to our VP of whatever.”

And so, we got the meeting and, hopefully, that works out. But, yeah, I like what you’re saying there. It’s, like, one bold move a day, that is attainable, writing a tricky email or reaching out to someone that you kind of been a little skittish about or procrastinating, can really be transformative in terms of the doors that it opens up.

Shanna Hocking
Yes, and I love both of those examples. Do you happen to remember, Pete, what motivated you to do that most recent bold move that you told us about?

Pete Mockaitis
Well, it’s funny. It’s really silly and idiosyncratic, but I’ll share it with you anyway. I was fascinated by Kalshi.com, in which they gained regulatory approval to enable people to, essentially, bet on the election. And I was like, “Wow, this website is so fascinating. There’s all these things that you can bet on. Everyone, be very careful. Don’t get carried away.”

And so, I was getting carried away in terms of, like, you could bet on the weather, and I was like, “Oh, well, how could I get an informational edge about the weather? Where are some personal weather stations I could access that other people don’t know about?” And so, I was kind of getting obsessive about this, and I came to realize, “You know, Pete, even if you, like, clean up on betting on the weather, you’ll be so much better off just spending that time obsessing about and figuring out stuff to make your businesses work better.”

So, I was having a conversation with one of the executives, and I said, “Hey, so you knowing me and my strengths, like what should I be obsessing on that can improve our business and that’s not the weather because this is not really healthy or valuable?” And he’s like, “Well, how about partnerships?” And I was like, “You know, I read something about partnerships, and I had this idea. Let’s go ahead and do that.” So, it was sort of sharing that with someone else.

And I guess maybe there’s a little bit of vulnerability there too, it’s like, “I realize I’ve been wasting my time and life. You tell me how I might spend it better,” and then that kind of brought the idea right back up to the surface.

Shanna Hocking
Well, I think what’s so interesting about the way that you did this is that sometimes we go down a path, we don’t even know we’re going down this path maybe too far or wherever we are, and the power of having someone in community with us to offer reflection or insight about either a different path we need to go down or a different way to look at that path. And I think that that’s really true of bold moves. People may never know the bold moves that we make unless we share them, and there’s a lot of power in doing this together with others that you care about and care about you.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, so could you help us think a little bit more about these bold moves? It seems like one category might be reach out to somebody or do the thing you’ve been procrastinating. Can you share with us any other guiding lights or shortcuts which might suggest, “Here’s a likely valuable bold move for you”?

Shanna Hocking
I would say that it could be sharing your idea in a meeting, or giving difficult feedback to your boss or another senior leader when you have a different perspective that’s important to share. Connecting and meeting with your mentor is a bold move, whether that’s a peer mentor or an aspirational leader that you’d like to be more about.

Learning is a bold move. Saying, “I have something that I can contribute to the world, but I have greater capacity to learn about it,” that’s a bold move too. And so, this reframe is, “Oh, not only am I able to do this today, but I’m going to give myself credit and celebrate the progress that I’ve made once I’ve done it.”

Pete Mockaitis
I like that. And so then, how do you think about the time? If one bold move a day, is there a place on your calendar where it’s like, “Okay, 10:30 a.m. It’s bold move time,” or how does that go down?

Shanna Hocking
Well, I’m not quite as formal as that because I really think that once you adopt this practice, there is the idea that you have to open up those doors to make them happen, and if that works for you to say, “At 10:30 a.m. I’m going to do this,” that’s great. Over time, you’re going to see doors open, and the question is, “Are you going to walk through it?”

And so, what I mean by this is you’re in a networking conversation with somebody at a conference or a work gathering, and they say something that you think, “Should I add this comment? Should I ask more about this?” And that momentary decision that you are considering and the choice that you make accompanied with it is potentially your bold move of the day.

So, you can’t plan that that’s going to happen at 10:30, but you can say, “When I walk into this networking gathering at this conference, I’m going to walk up to someone and talk to them,” first bold move, “and maybe I’m going to ask them a question about something that interests me that they might want to share more about,” and there’s the second bold move of the day.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s really cool. And one of the top things our listeners say they want to improve on is confidence, and confidence is tricky, because that could mean one of several very specific things. But if we were to generalize a bit, it would seem that continually doing these bold moves is probably one of the top practices for growing a general sense of confidence, self-belief, self-efficacy, “Hey, I can do some things here.”

Shanna Hocking
So well said. People often say to me, “Shanna, I don’t feel confident enough to make this bold move.” And just like you’ve said, I remind them that confidence comes from taking action to move you closer to your potential. And so, in making that bold move, no matter what the outcome is, you’re building your confidence.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And share with us, in the moment when we have those fear or impostor-types of feelings and emotions, how do you recommend we power through?

Shanna Hocking
I find it really helpful to have a mantra to power through, particularly if you’re going to walk into a situation or be faced with a situation that you anticipate will either cause you to shrink back or not speak up, and there’s a whole host of mantras that might work for you. “One bold move a day” is a great one. I really like to say, “I will achieve more than I ever thought possible.” And that kind of reminder in the moment of, “Can I possibly do this?” helps me to move forward and make my bold move too.

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Can I hear some other mantras that are really helpful and resonant for folks?

Shanna Hocking
Sure. Well, I’ll tell you a story about a mantra that could be applicable, depending on where you are in your career. If you’ve just stepped into a new role and you’re feeling those feelings we’ve talked about already, Pete, about, “Do I belong here? Can I do this?” you were hired for a reason. And so, there have been points in time in my career where I made this level-up moment. I’m into my first managerial role, for example, and I thought, “I can’t possibly do what is being asked of me in this moment right now.”

And so, I looked in the mirror and I reminded myself of my title and my role, and that alone gave me the confidence to say, “Oh, yeah, no, I am a big deal and I can do this.” So, that’s another potential mantra that might work for you in the moment to remind yourself someone chose you for the role that you’re in.

I really like to think about mantras that motivate you. So, if you’re motivated by gratitude, if you’re motivated by celebrating progress, then you can say, “I will learn something from this and I will celebrate afterward no matter the outcome.” Or you can say, “I’m so grateful for all I’ve been able to accomplish, and I know that I can achieve more.”

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah, that’s good. I imagine this could take so many fun flavors in terms of as many unique people and messages that we find resonant, you know, there could be plenty. And I’m wondering if you have a system or process by which you recommend people go about unearthing an effective mantra for themselves?

Shanna Hocking
I find that mantras are often things that come to us. There are things that we hear from other people or we read in a book and it’s the kind of thing you write into the margin or you write down on a Post-it note or in your phone, and you’re like, “That works for me.” What version of that worked for you? What motivated you? What did it make you want to do? And then, can you apply that directly or adapt it to create the mantra that will be the one that you can most rely on?

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, I like that. You could catch it from any number of unlikely sources. I’m thinking, once I was watching this goofy reality TV program, and some guy was trying to psych himself up to ask for a date, and he said something like, “You’re alive for 14,000 more days, and this will not be the one that you look back on and are disappointed,” or something like that. Like, it was intense, like, “Whoa, this is life or death, there’s a limited number of days,” and that’s true, we do have a limited number of days.

And so, he brought that, and, sure enough, he asked for the date, and it worked out, so great job, reality TV guy. So, yeah, just sort of maybe keeping our antennas up for where those bits of inspiration can come from, or maybe where they’ve come from in years past, but maybe we’ve forgotten, from a favorite book or movie or whatever.

Shanna Hocking
Love that. I think that there’s lots of inspiration that we can take in everything around us if we’re looking and listening.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And you recommend folks adopt a few key mindsets. Can you expand upon these?

Shanna Hocking
Yes. So, the bold move mindset is the foundation for making your bold moves each day, and the bold move mindset is made up of four individual and complementary components. The gratitude mindset, being grateful for all you have and all you are. The happiness mindset, reminding yourself that happiness does not come when you reach success. Every day, you are working towards something that’s important to you, and that’s what’s defining your happiness.

The progress mindset, celebrating every step of this journey and honoring what you’ve learned along the way. And the “and” mindset, the recognition that you can experience two different things at the same time, such as joy and challenge, and embracing that you are more than one thing at any given time.

Pete Mockaitis
Wow, those are powerful and grand. Do you have any pro tips on how we might cultivate these effectively?

Shanna Hocking
I think the gratitude mindset is a very approachable way to start. Lots of people talk about gratitude, Pete, and the very first time that I read about this and heard about this, I was reluctant to try it. I’m way too practical and way too actionable to think that a gratitude journal was going to change my life. And the idea of writing down three things each day that I was grateful for gave me the pause to think about what I’d already been through and what I’d already learned, and accept that and accept myself.

And I have found that that is a great place to start, and starting to figure out how the bold move framework can apply to you, and whether you do this in the morning or the evening, it doesn’t matter. It is the idea of saying, “I’m grateful for what I have in this day,” not the biggest things that we’re grateful for every day, but, “Today, what am I grateful for?” And that comes with accepting yourself and giving yourself credit too.

Pete Mockaitis
And, Shanna, I’d love to get your perspective when it comes to gratitude journals. I’ve done this exercise off and on at times, and what’s interesting is sometimes it feels very perfunctory, like I’m checking the box, “I’m grateful for this. I’m grateful for this. I’m grateful for this. And so, yep, those, in fact, I objectively, logically understand, these are blessings, and it is good to have them. That is special and rare, and, thusly, gratitude is an appropriate response.” It’s almost sort of like robotic.

And other times when I’m doing the gratefulness practice, boy, I’m really feeling it, in terms of like, “Wow, this is just, wow, a tremendous blessing.” And my heart is open and expanded and I could see how this leads to all sorts of benefits and sort of health outcomes and goodness that they say happens when you do a gratitude journal.

So, do you have any perspective on that? When doing the gratitude thing, sometimes I’m really feeling it, and sometimes I’m not, I prefer to be feeling it more. How do you think about that?

Shanna Hocking
Well, I think it’s a really good point because, again, I was the reluctant person when I started this too. And what I’ll say is, at the very beginning, it might feel like a to-do list item that you have to check off, and there was a transformation for me that happened when I realized that it was okay to be grateful for getting to visit my favorite coffee shop. There was nothing silly or mundane about that. It was a recognition of something special that happened during the day.

And like any practice, if we only do it when we’re feeling like the top of our game, then it’s not going to become a habit that will outlast the difficult moments and the difficult days. If we only write when we’re in flow, then we’re not going to be able to be a great writer. We have to be able to do it even when it’s not coming as easily because it’s the practice of the work that we’re putting in.

So, with gratitude, if it’s feeling like, “Today’s not my day for me to recognize these three things for myself,” then practice sending it to someone else, “Pete, I really value that you invited me to be on your podcast. And I especially value your vulnerability in our conversation today. I just wanted to tell you that I thought it was great.” Then I’m expressing gratitude to someone else and I’m still getting the power of that feeling for myself, and I’m sharing the joy with someone else.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s nice. And how about the progress mindset?

Shanna Hocking
So, the progress mindset for me formed because I was so busy going on to the next thing, the next goal, the next close, the next outcome, the next job title. And every time I got to that milestone, I would high-five myself, but then I’d be like, “Okay, what’s next?” And when you’re constantly waiting to get to this next thing, you’re not being present in the moment, and that’s what I experienced for myself. And I was really hard on myself, and I still am, I have to work through this.

So, what can I do to celebrate the progress that I’ve made? I haven’t finished the project. We don’t have to wait till the end for a celebration. You need to celebrate the progress along the way in order to be motivated to keep going. This is particularly true if you’re a people leader. How are you celebrating progress for your team members so that they can navigate the challenges and keep working through them, and see what the outcomes will be even if it’s not the way that they hoped or planned?

Pete Mockaitis
That’s nice. And tell us, when it comes to team leading, one bold move I’ve discovered is the bold move of letting go of some things, and asking another colleague to take it on. And delegation can be challenging in terms of, “Oh, no one can do it as well as I can do it,” or you have some fears, concerns. Can you share with us any of your top tips when it comes to delegating, letting go, empowering others?

Shanna Hocking
Well, I will say that no matter where you are in your career, whether you are working together with an intern or a colleague, or you are a chief executive, delegating is a learned skill and it requires practice. I think that the very first tip in understanding how to approach delegating is changing the mindset from, “I can’t do it all,” or, “I’m not good enough, and therefore I have to do this,” to, “What opportunities can I create for other people around me to learn and maybe get to the place where I am? And how can doing this allow me to focus on my best and highest use of time, which allows me to contribute more to the world?”

That mindset shift is so important. I often hear people trying to hang on to doing it all because they think they’re supposed to. And then from there, it’s really understanding what is important to other people to achieve, and, “How can I help them do this? And how can I help create opportunities for learning? And then how can I communicate clearly about what is expected so I can set someone up for success in this process?”

Pete Mockaitis
Well, these things make great sense in terms of a great mindset to have going into it as well as some principles to follow, to have that be more likely to be successful. Can you share with us any nitty-gritty do’s and don’ts within this?

Shanna Hocking
Absolutely. The first thing to know is that if you’re going to delegate something to someone, you cannot micromanage them throughout the whole process if you want this to be successful for you or for them. So, in the beginning, it might take an extra 10 minutes or 15 minutes to say, “Here’s where the outcome is that we’re working toward. Here’s how frequently we’re going to talk about progress. Here’s how you can reach me when you have questions. And we’ll look forward to seeing how this goes along the way.”

But if you say, “Here’s the project. I want you to work on it,” and then every couple of days you’re like, “How’s it going with this? What’s happening with this? Where are we with this?” What you’re saying to someone is, unintentionally, “I don’t trust you. I don’t believe that you have the capacity to do this on your own.” So, having that conversation up front gives clarity to all roles of people who are involved.

The other thing is, it doesn’t mean you’re letting go of everything entirely. Especially if you’re a people leader or if you’re delegating a project to an intern, you are responsible for that outcome, too. And so, that clear communication just creates more clarity for everybody who’s involved in the process, and then you can experience a different kind of pride, too, in seeing someone that you’re working with being able to achieve something and feel good about it for themselves. I think that’s really where growth comes as a leader.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, zooming out, tell me, Shanna, any other key things that make all the difference when it comes to career advancement and wisely navigating things?

Shanna Hocking
Something I often encourage people to consider is how to lead from where you are. I, fundamentally, believe that everyone is a leader. Your leadership is not about your title or your authority, it’s the energy and purpose by which you lead yourself and serve others each day. So, no matter where you are on the org chart, you have both an opportunity and a responsibility to lead in the workplace.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, any final things you want to make sure to mention before we hear about some of your favorite things?

Shanna Hocking
As you are starting on this bold move journey, as I call it, a bold move can be quiet. When you’re talking to two people like us, Pete, right? You and I make a living by being out in public and doing a lot of things to encourage others, and it might seem like, “Well, that’s great for Shanna and Pete.” So, a bold move is defined by you, and it might be quiet, right? You do not have to be extroverted in order to achieve this. You have to be committed to your own success. And I hope that that’s the encouragement to get started on this journey.

Pete Mockaitis
Oh, thank you. Well, now could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Shanna Hocking
“Luck is when preparation meets opportunity.”

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Shanna Hocking
So, I will share with you that the research study I’m talking about most frequently recently is about your team’s collective strengths. So, the study came out last year, and what it’s showing is that when you identify individual strengths and talk about how to leverage those strengths collectively and trust each other’s strengths in the workplace, you can create a high-performing team.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Do we know how to do that or how to not do that?

Shanna Hocking
Well, I lead a workshop on how to do that, so we definitely know how to do it. It is a self-discovery conversation and also a team collective about, “What do we do well? And how do we do it well together? And then how do we apply that?” You can think about this in terms of a project. There’s probably something that you can contribute to a project right now that is going unnoticed in your workplace because maybe it’s not something you talk about frequently or it’s not related to your job title.

But if you can say to your manager, like, “Here’s a strength, a way I would like to add value to this project,” you might be able to unlock some piece of this project that’s been stuck and also your own potential.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite book?

Shanna Hocking
My very favorite book to recommend is, What Works for Women at Work by Professor Joan C. Williams. That book changed my life, and I have given it as a gift to many women that I mentor.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Shanna Hocking
I just got trained in the Hogan Assessment in order to be able to help leaders understand themselves and their teams better. So, I’m looking forward to using that tool in order to do my work.

Pete Mockaitis
And a favorite habit?

Shanna Hocking
I’d say probably gratitude, right? I think it is the most approachable way for any of us to be able to celebrate who we are and where we are.

Pete Mockaitis
And is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Shanna Hocking
When it comes to one bold move a day, people often feel inspired by the idea that you get to choose what your bold move is every day and nobody else gets to judge it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Shanna Hocking
I’d love to connect with you on LinkedIn where I share a lot of leadership insights and, also, I send out a weekly newsletter, which you can find on my website, ShannaAHocking.com.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Shanna Hocking
Well, Pete, I think we’re going to challenge people to make their one bold move a day because it will make the world a better place, and it will help them to be the best version of themselves.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Shanna, thank you for this. And I wish you many lovely bold moves.

Shanna Hocking
Thank you, and back to you.

Pete Mockaitis
Aliza, welcome to How to be Awesome at Your Job.

Aliza Knox
Pete, thanks for having me on.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, I appreciate you’re waking up extra early for us in Singapore, and I understand that you celebrated becoming an Australian citizen in an interesting way. What’s the story here?

Aliza Knox
So, I moved to Australia in the late 1980s, loved it, and decided I wanted to become a citizen, I was eligible after a few years, and wanted to celebrate in a big way. As you probably know, converts are always more zealous than people born into things. And so, I went out with three friends to an indigenous Australian restaurant and did what I have called eating the coat of arms.

So, if you don’t know, the coat of arms in Australia has a kangaroo and an emu, so I thought that if I ingested them, I would become even more Australian. So, I started with a salad that had smoked emu on it and followed with a kangaroo steak.

Pete Mockaitis
And are these tasty items?

Aliza Knox
Not bad. Not bad. Not something I eat frequently but kangaroo steaks are generally marinated for a while because it could be a bit tough, but not anything vile to eat.

Pete Mockaitis
Well, now I’m intrigued. I liked just about every meat I’ve ever had, and I’ve never had those, so I’m intrigued.

Aliza Knox
Well, next time you come down under, you can probably get them.

Pete Mockaitis
Alrighty. Well, I’m excited to chat about some wisdom in your book Don’t Quit Your Day Job: The Six Mind Shifts You Need to Rise and Thrive at Work. Tell me, as you did your research, did you discover anything particularly surprising, counterintuitive, fascinating about people and quitting and their thought processes?

Aliza Knox
The book is written from the viewpoint of somebody who’s worked in corporate for over 40 years and does huge amounts of mentoring, counselling, talking to people who want help, so it’s really anecdotal.

So, there aren’t a lot of statistics but the one thing that I did find in doing a lot of reading is that even during the pandemic and all of this talk of The Great Reset, The Great Resignation, much of the reason for quitting is the same. So, certainly, there have been resignations now because of burnout, or because people have not been allowed to work from home, or it’s become more of a norm, or because, as inflation has come in, people are looking for higher salaries.

But, still, among the top two or three reasons for people leaving their jobs are “My manager isn’t invested in me,” or, “My company doesn’t value me.” And so, those have remained steadfast based on all the research I’d read from a variety of firms, including McKinsey and BCG.

Pete Mockaitis
And your own experience.

Aliza Knox
And my own experience, yeah.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Well, that sounds right to me. And so, I’m curious then, if one finds themselves in such a position where one or both of those are true, you’ve got some mind shifts you recommend. How do they go?

Aliza Knox
Okay, let me just back up and tell you the mind shifts are about having a long, healthy, thriving career and not necessarily, despite the title, never quitting a job. It’s some shifts on how to think about your career. I definitely think      that there are times you will want to leave. The title is a bit provocative in a time of   The Great Resignation but, to be clear, it doesn’t mean you should never quit, and I’m sure there are instances when you should.

But what I do think is that sometimes there is a lens through which people can see their career, which they don’t use, and those make up the mind shifts, or that lens is the combination of these mind shifts, and that’s why this book is for everybody, whether they’re in a job now or thinking about getting a job. And Kim Scott, who wrote Radical Candor, actually said on the back of the book, that it proves that mindset, not just passion, drives career success. And so, that’s why I think these mindsets are really important.

So, if you will, what I can do is go through each mindset briefly and give you an example. Will that be helpful?

Pete Mockaitis
Yes, please.

Aliza Knox
Okay. It’ll take a little while but we can talk in between. So, the first mind shift is, “Go for both. Your work and your life are on the same team.” And what this means is move past the kind of traditional thinking of, “Oh, it’s my work or my life. I have to make a decision, and if one goes up, the other goes down.” That’s why, in particular, I really hate the term work-life balance because it sounds like a see-saw, like if one’s up, the other has got to be down. And I don’t think that’s the case at all.

I wrote an article in Forbes a couple months ago about a young journalist who graduated from Columbia, in one of the preeminent journalism schools in the US, and did what many people do, went to a small town where she could really cover meaty issues. She went to the South and she was covering things like chemicals in the water, very big deal issues, the kinds of things that get you promoted to larger and larger newspapers, maybe get you a Pulitzer, but that approach takes years of working your way up through smaller-town newspapers.

And she had grown up in New York, was raised by grandparents, and really felt the pull to be back near them, and couldn’t see how that was going to fit with this issue of needing to be in smaller areas and her long-term dream of working for The Wall Street Journal or The New York Times or WaPo. And so, she eventually said, “I can’t make this decision, my career or my life, because my life needs to be in New York.

So, she did what she thought she had to do, gave up on the career part, and said, “Okay, I’m going for my life. I’m moving to New York.” And guess what, after not that long, even though she had taken a job that she thought was really fluffy, writing about the real estate industry, not serious journalism, not award-winning, she actually was able to work her way into a position where she’s now an editor at The Wall Street Journal.

She didn’t have to trade off my life or my work. She actually got both. And by focusing on what was really important to her, she was able to have both things, if you will. So, I think this “Your life and your work are on the same team,” you can do it, you can have it both is really an important lesson.

Pete Mockaitis
And so, I’m curious, in that example, did the being in New York…? I mean, that was good for her life and it ended up being good for her work. I’m curious, is there a connection there in terms of, because of feeling connected and energized or inspired or rejuvenated with her family, that was a career-enabler or did she just kind of get lucky?

Aliza Knox
I don’t think it was either. I think she was observant. We could talk about serendipity later but I think she kept her eyes open for opportunities to move around. I’m sure it helped. I’m sure it helped energize her, that she was with her family, that she was doing something that was very important to her.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. All right. So, what’s the next mind shift?

Aliza Knox
So, just before we move on, I do think it’s important to say in each mind shift in the book, I got four, five power perspectives and then action steps to take from each one. And in this particular one, there is another interesting point, which is that often people obsess about these choices. They ruminate and ruminate and kind of can’t move on, paralysis by analysis, “Which one should I do? How do I do it? What happens if I do each one?”

And I found that, generally, if you take a plunge and move on, that’s helpful, and you are usually not derailed by a single career choice. Whatever she would’ve done, she probably could’ve made it into a good long-term plan. And I have another story about a young woman named Emily Rubin, who, after college, took a job in San Francisco that she wasn’t sure about but it was kind of her only option.

She liked it in the beginning, then was really miserable. I thought she should probably stay a year just because that’s kind of the minimum time to really get to know a company and be able to tell people, “Hey, I did something.” But she was too unhappy, so here’s one where she quit her job. But, in doing so, she found a job she really likes at a mid-size consulting company called Huron, and she would not have been able to get that job without, even though it was limited, the prior experience at the startup.

So, it’s important, she made a decision, she just got on with it. And, while that decision didn’t seem wise in retrospect because you could look at it, and say, “Well, she made a mistake. She didn’t like that job.” But she did need a job, and that job propelled her to Huron. So, I think an action step for this section in this mind shift is if you’re thinking about a choice like this now, think about it as best you can, get some advice – we can talk about personal boards of directors later – get some perspective, and then take a plunge.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. Cool.

Aliza Knox
All right?

Pete Mockaitis
Yeah. Well, tell us about the next mind shift, “Stamina is a muscle. Build yours.”

Aliza Knox
Right. Well, I’m thinking about muscles, in particular. I went away for a few weeks, and, over the last couple of years, I’ve tried to go to a personal trainer in hopes of developing some muscles. And I’m telling you, I’m feeling my muscles right now. So, I think my other muscles, many of them are weaker than my stamina one.

But one of my favorite formulas that I came up with for the book, because I really believe it, is that stamina equals perseverance plus enthusiasm. I think it’s not just gritting it out, it’s not just grinding it out, and it is a superpower because, no matter how much you love your job, how much you love your career, how upbeat you are, how well you perform, I think you’re going to have bad days, tough times, obstacles, and stamina is what gets you through them.

So, an example that I go through, this one, not her real name, is a woman named Barbara who was at a startup, and I met her and she was really disconsolate, she said, “I’ve been head of sales here, and I’m being layered over. They’re bringing somebody in over me, and I’m in my mid-to-late 20s, I’ve done this, I’m going to move on. I have to leave because this is just too demeaning and too demoralizing.”

And I had met her partly because I know the person who was going to be brought in over her. And so, I said to her, “You know, I wonder if you should hang in there. This person who’s coming in is actually a really good guy. He’s well-known for leadership, he’s well-known for investing in people, you might want to give it a shot before you leave because, even though you’ll have a slightly lower title, and you feel like it’s a step down, I think he might actually really help you grow your career faster than you will if you keep jumping to places where you don’t have someone above you to guide you.”

And so, I’m sure not completely due to me, but she must’ve talked to a few people, and she decided to stick it out, she decided to exercise some stamina, hang in there. And, indeed, she was promoted two times working for this gentleman. The second time while on maternity leave, which shouldn’t be something I have to call out but I still think it’s important in this day and age because it doesn’t happen that often.

And, eventually, she left that company and she’s gone on after two jumps to be the CRO at another quite well-known startup, so she’s done really well. And I think by exerting that stamina and getting herself to think about staying, she really had a better outcome than she would’ve if she had quit her job at that time. So, I think this is a great example about using stamina, using patience, and using optimism to hang in there and test out things that you think might have made you want to quit.

Pete Mockaitis
And if we find that our perseverance and enthusiasm muscles are weak, how do we get them stronger?

Aliza Knox
Well, I think one very common step that is talked about a lot, especially if you ever read anything by Arianna Huffington, is to make some time for yourself that includes sleep. Sleep is really important to keeping up your energy and enthusiasm. And, indeed, for those of us who are aging, I keep reading that lack of sleep is one cause, long-term lack of sleep seems to be one cause of dementia. So, I’m sure most of the people listening to your podcast are not worrying about that yet, but it’s starting to be on my list of things to be concerned about. So, I definitely say sleep.

And, for me, personally, I go to the gym or exercise every day. And if you’re a high-energy person but you also need to vege, or remove some of the excess energy, or build up some if you’re a low-energy person, I really do find having one hour for myself every day to workout is important. And I think for people who get energy in other ways, by actually, if you’re more of an introvert, having time for yourself, having an hour every day that you protect and that is something you want to do is really critical to that. And that’s a better tradeoff than doing another hour of work, even in a really driven high-performance culture.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And how about the third mind shift, “Connection trumps tech savvy even in tech”?

Aliza Knox
Yes, this is really important because I think, again, during the pandemic and working for Silicon Valley firms, we tend to think that tech can solve everything, and I think it solves a lot. I think we have a lot of collaboration tools, we have a lot of devices, things that really help us. I listened to one of your podcasts where there was discussion about equipment to help you even meditate better. And I think there is a lot of technology out there that’s fantastic.

But human relationships are still really critical. And we see this over and over again back to, “How does my manager invest in me thinking about how I relate to people at work?” So, one anecdote about why they’re still important, I tell a story about Suzy Nicoletti, a real person who worked for me at Google and then Twitter, and is now the head of Asia for a startup called Yotpo.

She didn’t get promoted at Google at one stage when she really expected to. She was performing well, she was selling well, her clients liked her, and she sought some advice from a gentleman who she knew from the outside who’s quite a bit more senior, and she said, “I don’t understand this. Here’s all these things about what I’ve been doing. Why would I not get promoted?”

And he said, “Well, you know, I listened to you talk about your job a lot, and I can tell that you’re great about it, and that you really like it, and that your clients like you and you’re enthusiastic but one of the things is you talk about yourself and your clients. You don’t talk about the team. You don’t talk about the support you’re getting.”

“If I were your boss, I might worry even though I know you personally and you’re not like this. I might worry that you’re not really a team player. I might worry about putting you in charge of a bunch of people because you’re not narcissistic but you’re coming across almost as if that might be the case. Why don’t you think a little bit more about in your discussions and in your actions working with a team, like, I know that you’re doing it, but I think that you could emphasize it some more.”

And she went ahead and did that, and she got promoted the next time. And I, actually, since had a chance to talk to her boss at the time, and that was precisely the issue. And so, Suzy was able to get some outside perspective on what was going on. And I think that it’s really important – and we can talk about it later if you like – that you create a personal board of directors, that you have some outside perspective on your career so people can maybe give you insights that you might not be getting directly at work on what’s going on and what you might need to do.

And in that case, what was really important to her, in terms of human relationships, is having a sounding board, an effective sounding board, with people who know you outside of your job.

Pete Mockaitis
Yes. And what’s powerful about that story is that that person actually provided some useful actionable wisdom as opposed to, “Oh, that’s bull. I can’t believe they did that to you. You’re so amazing.” That was really cool of him.

Aliza Knox
That’s why, like I think friends are great sounding boards and probably part of your moral support group. And sometimes if your friends are people with lots more experience or really different experience and have great perspective, then they might be on your board of directors. But, you’re absolutely right, I think that, “Yeah, that’s bull,” and “You’re fantastic,” we all need that for moral support, and especially if we’re beginning to get things like impostor syndrome, but they’re not necessarily all that effective in the “Don’t quit your day job,” really understanding how to build your career aspect of life.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. And can we hear about the next mind shifts?

Aliza Knox
Sure, “You’re in a relationship with your career. Nurture it.” So, what’s interesting to me, most of us probably have been in a relationship with somebody, or want to be in a relationship with somebody, or are thinking about being in a relationship with somebody, and all the reading I’ve ever done about that, I’m certainly no expert, and, again, not a psychologist, but it says, “Don’t put all your expectations on your partner. Don’t expect your spouse, husband, wife, partner, companion, to fulfill all your needs. You’ve got to have outside stuff.”

And I, personally, have been married for almost 30 years, and I have a great husband, but I don’t do everything with him, and I have lots of outside sources of things that keep me interested, and the same for him. But somehow, at least in the time I’ve been working, we’ve come to this point where there’s a lot of expectations that our career will fulfill all our passions. It kind of started out with, “Hey, I’ve got to work to pay the mortgage, or pay the rent, and feed my kids, get some clothes.” Then, careers were supposed to become rewarding and fulfilling, and I think that’s entirely possible.

But then we got to a stage where it’s like career should fulfill all your passions, and I think that’s a really high bar and maybe not possible for everybody. I went out to lunch recently with a professor who’s an avid equestrian, and I guess it’s possible to have a career in horseback riding. I don’t really know. I’ve never investigated it. I think you can be a jockey. I know that there’s a lot of great nonprofits on like riding with the disabled, so maybe there’s a career there, but maybe there aren’t a lot.

And so, what this guy does, he also really likes teaching. He’s got a great career as a professor, he’s picked a career where he has summers off and long winter breaks, and he manages his finances so that he can have a couple horses, and during these long breaks, be places where he’s in a rural area and ride all the time. And then he’s also living somewhere where, early in the morning or late at night, because he’s not required to teach at those hours, he can ride, and he doesn’t have a commute.

So, he’s managed to say, “Okay, there are things I care about,” and, again, back to what you said earlier, Pete, “that give me energy, that also help in the other part of my life,” and so he’s managed his career to do both.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. And it is a nice paradigm shift to go away from, “My career needs to be my passion and fill, and tick every one of those boxes to my choice of career can support my passions.” And I think that that’s an important consideration as you’re looking at opportunities, in terms of, “I don’t care to be in the midst of hustle-bustle urgency, and I really don’t think I would flourish in, like, deal environments, either like real estate deals or Wall Street IPO deals.”

Because it seems like whenever you’re connected there, whether you’re doing strategy consulting for the private equity firm who’s doing the deal, or you’re a lawyer who’s supporting it, or you’re the banker who’s got some funds, it’s like nutty. It just seems like there’s no way around it. It’s nutty, late nights, and, “Answer your phone and…” my phone defaults to do not disturb, like always. So, I know I would not flourish in such an environment and so I’ve chosen kind of the opposite of that with regard to we’ve got a media schedule that goes sometime in the distance.

And then the horseback riding is a nice specific example of that, in terms of, “What’s important to you?” “Horseback riding.” “What’s necessary for that?” “We got some money, some time off, some home in a rural area.” And so, I like how that’s nice and concrete. And though if we think about our own emotional, relational needs with friends, hobbies, family, then that can also spark a nice little list of extra considerations that might’ve been totally outside your awareness before having considered this.

Aliza Knox
I think that’s right. There’s another story in the book about a professor named Marla Stone, who didn’t get a job she really wanted. So, she wasn’t doing things around her job, like the equestrian. She had a professorship in Rome, there was a more senior role in that same foundation and she applied for it, didn’t get it, came back to Los Angeles, and thought, “Well, I want to throw myself into something that I care about. I didn’t get that and I’m back to my old job.”

And she started working with the ACLU on the side, and went on their board, eventually became chairman of the Southern California Board of ACLU. The job in Rome came up again, she thought, “Oh, listen, it’s kind of my dream job. I’m going to apply one more time. I really want to do it.” And it turned out that by being on the board of the ACLU, she had more of the skills that they wanted. Originally, she was just a great academic, but they also wanted somebody who understood some aspects of running a business. And because she’d been a Chair, even though it was a nonprofit, she picked up some of the skills along the way.

She didn’t go to the ACLU in order to get this job in Rome. It had nothing to do with it. She did it to just say, “Hey, I want some other stuff out of my career. I didn’t get this one thing I wanted so I’m going to shift gears a little bit and make sure I have something else that’s really interesting to me that fulfills a passion.” And guess what, it came back and actually boosted her into a dream job.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s cool.

Aliza Knox
Very cool.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Let’s hear about the fifth mind shift.

Aliza Knox
So, back to a word you’ve been using a lot, and one that I like. This one is “Get a move on. Use movement to stay energized and thrive.” And this is about movement keeping you energized, maximizing your value. Movement can be a promotion. It can be moving geographically. It can be moving laterally, which means moving from one role in a company to another to learn something else, like from sales to marketing, or from engineering to sales. It could be job crafting.

And it could, ultimately, be leaving your job, quitting and going to another job. So, I don’t think I’ve used any examples of men so far, so I’ll talk a little bit about a guy who I call Tim Liu in the book. It’s not his real name, but he was working for a company here in Singapore. He really liked the company and he liked his job, and he was doing well at it, but he felt stuck. There were no promotions available. There were no other jobs available. He didn’t want to move, he really wants to be in Singapore, and he really felt stagnated. He felt like he wasn’t learning.

So, he went and talked to other companies, I would call it job dating. He was just trying to see what else is out there, “Is there something else that really gets me going, that I’ll be excited about at another company?” and he didn’t find it. So, he went to his manager, and said, “Listen, I really like my job, I really like the company, but I’m stagnating here. I need to learn more. I need something.”

And, of course, that’s pretty good for a manager to hear, which is, “I can’t find something I prefer. I really want to stay here, but can you help me?” That is a lot better for a manager than to hear a good employee saying, “I feel stuck and I’m going to go,” and trying to save them. So, the manager said, “Yeah, what is it? What do you want to learn?” and they worked together. Tim really wanted to know more about, in his case, government relations and business development.

So, the manager helped him craft, add on some extra tasks, mixed with some different kinds of people in the firm to learn, and it re-energized Tim to hang out for longer. Eventually, there was room for him to get a promotion at that firm, and so he stayed. So, in this case, because he couldn’t get the movement that he wanted, he was able to ask for it, create it himself with the help of his team, and he’s saved, which was great for the firm.

There are lots of other ways to do it. I’ve got a good friend, who also felt like she was stagnating, and she’s moved from one country to another. Another young woman, Ling-Ling, who was in sales but loves social media, and so, even though she was in sales and mostly needed to be on the phone with clients, she spent a lot of time on LinkedIn building her profile, putting up lots of really insightful pithy comments, stories, small videos about what her firm was doing, and, eventually, she was so good at it that she was able to switch into a marketing job at her firm.

So, all those things were creating movement, and all these people are energized and thriving in their new roles. So, some have left, some have not, but, really, interesting ways as they sort of left their roles but none of those have left their firms.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. That’s handy. And the sixth mind shift?

Aliza Knox
Okay, the sixth one, “Distant is the new diverse. Include the international working from home team.” So, this is one of my favorites because when the pandemic started, I bristled a little at the idea that, “Gosh, no one’s ever done this. Nobody’s ever worked from home. Nobody has ever run teams that are dispersed all over the world.” That’s kind of not true.

If you look at people who’ve been building Asia, or Latin America, or Europe, or the US for a headquarters in Korea, France, Brazil, they’ve often been in the situation where they’re trying to deal with a lot of people whom they never get to see in person, except for maybe a couple times a year. So, I call this removing the R from remote to try and make it emote.

Pete Mockaitis
Okay.

Aliza Knox
And one of my favorite statistics from Gallup is that companies with engaged employees are 20% more profitable. If you keep employees close, if you keep them feeling good about the firm and feeling engaged, and it does also go back to having a manager who cares about you but not only, you really have a firm that does better, not just employees who are happy.

So, one of the things I’ve seen over time is that many companies, tech companies, I think, do this a lot, other companies, banks, pharmaceuticals, try to engage their employees by having global townhalls, or monthly or weekly video meetings where everybody can get on, and maybe leadership will talk about examples of great client wins in the firm, or do shoutouts to employees who’ve done great things or gone the extra mile.

And you’ll notice that companies tend to focus on things that happen in headquarters because that’s what the leaders hear first. But if you make the extra effort, as a leader, or even as somebody on the team to make sure this doesn’t happen, if it’s an American company, they might talk about GAP or MasterCard.

But what about if they think about Uniqlo in Japan, or China UnionPay in China where employees are doing something? Or, what about if they don’t just call out that Joe is doing a good job but remember to shout out that Mariabrisa, at Latin America, is doing a great job. So, that really helps bringing in the international or the work-from-home team.

Pete Mockaitis
Absolutely. And then, as we think about navigating our own jobs, how do you consider the working remotely versus in the headquarters or at the office in terms of career impact?

Aliza Knox
Yeah, I think that’s really good question. I think there’s a lot of literature that, “Hey, we’ve been really more efficient and effective during the pandemic, and it’s because we don’t have commutes, and we can just keep up all the personal relationships.” So, I’m a little bit skeptical on that. I think we have been efficient, and there probably are better work models. I’m not sure it means we should never meet in person.

I think what happened is that everybody sort of drew down on their social capital during the pandemic, and that the lack of face-to-face time hindered new relationships and, in some cases, weakened existing ones. We’re using these relationships we’ve already built but building new ones remotely is harder. So, I think a really good thing to do now is to focus on building back that social capital, and that could mean a couple things.

It could mean making some effort even if your company is working from home or working remotely to get out there in person if you’re in the same city, or if you travel a little bit, to meet some of the people you work with in person. I think another case, if it’s all remote, I have a good friend, who is in comms at Google, who says, “I don’t take a meeting. I make a friend.” So, just like what you and I did right before the beginning of this podcast, just chat a little bit about things to get to know you. You could do that. One of the things about Zoom, “We all get on it at 6:30, let’s start, let’s not waste any time, business, business, business. It’s 7:00, let’s get off.” Maybe.

But in a real meeting, people come in and not everybody enters at exactly 6:00, and somebody comes in with Doritos and shares them. There’s always that few minutes of kind of idle chitchat or maybe commiserating about the weather that are silly but that kind of start to build relationships. So, maybe you build that into Zoom.

And one strategy for individuals is to maybe build a personal visibility plan that takes into account the challenges of remote or hybrid work, and includes ways to remain visible and connected, like, you might decide to try to do a little more than was asked, or you could plan for some get-togethers with colleagues out of work, even virtual cocktails to help build back up social capital that’s been depleted.

Or, I think something good managers do and can do for their teams is to make sure that they’re talking to other people in the firm about you, and you can repay that favor so that you’ve visible. People know about you even if you’re not seeing them.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Thank you. Okay. Well, so some nice mind shifts that can change the way we think about career decisions and perhaps illuminate optimal paths that were previously just not even in our conscious awareness, so really valuable stuff. Let’s talk about serendipity because these mind shifts feel a bit – what’s the word – not quite the word programmatic. They’re principles to be considered versus serendipity, just kind of seems to happen. So, how do we think about finding and seizing serendipity?

Aliza Knox
So, serendipity, I’ve always thought of it as something originally thought of something that just happens, right? There’s that famous story about Kate Moss, who was an amazing model, being seen in an airport in Florida, someone coming up to her and saying, “Do you want to model? You’re gorgeous,” and then going on to being rich and famous. And I’m still waiting for that, frankly. I’m traveling next week, so if anybody wants to come to Cheney Airport and give me the same opportunity, I’m happy for that.

But I think of serendipity more as opportunity plus action. So, a small personal story, I think I might’ve mentioned to you, Pete, but I am now and what I would consider phase 3.0 of my career. So, if you think of life as software releases or your career, 1.0 for me was consulting and financial services, 2.0 was tech, 3.0 now I sit on boards, I’m writing, speaking, etc. But how did I get from 1.0 to 2.0?

Well, I was working at Visa and I, at that point, was living in the Bay Area and we were working on a deal with Google, which was in some really fairly stages in the early 2000s, and I happened to meet Vint Cerf, who was one of the real founders of the internet. And in this meeting, we discussed a possible joint venture, and I was responsible for what was going on, so I wrote a thank you note and the follow-up steps, and I thought about this, and I thought about it for a couple of weeks.

And I thought, “Wow, I just met this amazing person who knows all about the internet. I’m an internet newbie.” I’m using it for email, but other than that, I don’t know much. I’ve been in financial services for a long time, certainly haven’t mastered it. I’m not sure I’ve ever fully mastered anything, and I like it. But, gosh, there’s a lot going on. We’d already had the first dotcom boom and bust. There’s a lot going on in the world of the internet, and I know nothing about it. And I am curious and I would love to learn. So, would it be appropriate for me to write to this guy I’ve only met once and I met through my job? Is it too audacious?

So, I thought about it for a couple of weeks, and I thought, “Oh, come on, be bold. Take the step.” So, for my personal email, I went back to his work email, which I had, and said, “Hey, Vint, I would love to learn more about what’s going on in the world of the internet. And I know I’m a bit older than the people you’re hiring right now, and I don’t have any particularly relevant experience. Would Google or someone else talk to me?”

And I guess the worst thing that could’ve happened is he could’ve said, “Huh, I’m going to tell Visa that you’re coming after me and it’s so inappropriate,” but I figured he wouldn’t do that. And the second worst that could’ve happened, which would’ve been very disappointing but not life-shattering, would’ve been that he just didn’t write back at all. But you know what, he wrote back, and he said, “Okay, send me your resume. Let’s talk. This might be interesting.”

And that led to my talking to a number of people at Google and eventually going to work there. And it was so serendipitous, and, in fact…so, I wrote him a thank you note at the time, and then, 10 years later when I started at Cloudflare, which is an internet security and performance company and now a number of other things, I was watching some videos to get up to speed on how Cloudflare works, and because it’s built on a back of the structure of the internet, the infrastructure, there were videos with Vint Cerf in them.

And so, I saw him and I wrote him again, and I’m like, “Hey, I don’t know if you remember me, but here I am, 10 years later, still in tech, thanks to you,” and I got another email back. So, I would consider serendipity opportunity plus action. So, how do you seize that? And I’m sure there’s plenty of times, by the way, that I’ve missed it, but there’s been serendipity right in front of me and I haven’t gotten it, but that’s one where I did.

So, I thought, here’s the thing, you’ve got to be open. There is potential around us, make a habit for looking at unexpected opportunities. Listen to the people you meet and the conversations. What do they know that might be of interest to you? Do they know someone where you’ve been thinking about that career? Or, did you just hear that their firm is hiring? And even if it’s audacious, might you ask? Follow up.

If you hear a great talk, or you hear about a career path that you don’t know anything about, be audacious. Like, most of the time it’s not going to hurt you. Usually, the absolute worst thing that’s going to happen is you’re going not get a reply. Most people just aren’t going to go to the effort to write to your boss or tell somebody else…

Pete Mockaitis
“How dare you?”

Aliza Knox
Yeah, you know, “This person had the guts to talk to me.” Make the ask and make it specific. So, it’s not like, “Hey, Vint, do you think I could ever do something in the internet?” I just said, “Do you think I could talk to somebody at Google?” that was brazen but it was something he could do, like he works there, he knows someone there, and it wasn’t a very big deal to him when I think about it. I thought it was a big deal, like, he was working there, he can say to somebody else, “Hey, will you look at this resume and see?”

And then, I think the other really important thing to do is to pay it forward, and I tell people this over and over again. People are going to ask you for the same thing, and they’re going to ask you for inspiration and for advice, and make sure to pay it forward because you can help other people and I think it’s both fulfilling and who knows, I think there is karma in the world and it might come back to help you at some point.

Pete Mockaitis
That’s beautiful. Well, now let’s hear a bit about your favorite things. Could you share a favorite quote, something you find inspiring?

Aliza Knox
So, my favorite quote is from Maya Angelou, which is, “My mission in life is not merely to survive but to thrive, and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor, and some style.”

Pete Mockaitis
Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research?

Aliza Knox
Yes. So, I talked a little bit about job crafting, and there’s a really cool study by these guys Laker and Patel about how job crafting can make work more satisfying, that they wrote with MIT Sloan. I think they’re professors in England. And then there’s another one that Catalyst did, which is an organization that really promotes women in the workforce, and super relevant to the times we’re in now, and it’s called “The Power of Empathy in Times of Crisis and Beyond.” And, in fact, it was part of what I used when I wrote an article called “Is CEO now Chief Empathy Officer or should it be?”

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And a favorite book?

Aliza Knox
So, I know you’re a business podcast but I read fiction all the time, so my favorite book is Cutting for Stone by Abraham Verghese, who’s a physician, who’s also an author on the side. I don’t know how you can be that talented. And it’s a book that follows twin brothers born in Addis Ababa, and it’s about the coming of age of one of them and also the coming of age of Ethiopia out of colonialism, and I highly recommend it.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite tool, something you use to be awesome at your job?

Aliza Knox
Yeah, there’s a tool that’s just out in beta that I’d gotten access to called OnLoop, and it’s a mobile-first feedback tool. I’d say it is to team development what Apple Watch is to fitness, so it’s feedback minus the recency bias. It captures in-moment reflections on yourself or feedback for colleagues, and it tags it, and it actually helps you. It compounds over time to reveal people’s superpowers and blind spots. It really helps with writing evaluations, which is something most people hate in performance evaluations, going back, trying to remember what they thought about colleagues or coworkers.

Pete Mockaitis
Cool. And a favorite habit?

Aliza Knox
Going to the gym or playing badminton.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. And a favorite resonant nugget, something you share that seems to connect and resonate with folks; they quote it back to you often?

Aliza Knox
Yeah, I keep getting quoted back from, “I read your book. I especially love stamina equals perseverance plus enthusiasm.”

Pete Mockaitis
That’s good. And if folks want to learn more or get in touch, where would you point them?

Aliza Knox
AlizaKnox.com, @AlizaKnox on Twitter, and Aliza Knox on LinkedIn. Fortunately, I have a pretty unusual name, A-L-I-Z-A K-N-O-X.

Pete Mockaitis
And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Aliza Knox
Yeah, if you don’t have one, go set up a personal board of directors. There’s a step-by-step on how to do it in my book, and I really think I regret not thinking about it and doing it earlier in my career. It would’ve helped a lot, and I see it helping people whom I mentor.

Pete Mockaitis
All right. Aliza, thank you. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and fun in this version of things.

Aliza Knox
Thank you so much, Pete. It’s been fantastic to be on your show. I’ve not listened to all 700 plus podcasts, but I’m getting through them, and they’re great. I’m honored to be included.